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Good morning, and welcome to the Sunday politics. David Cameron has | :00:43. | :00:53. | |
finally named the day to see whether England remained | :00:54. | :00:54. | |
# Britain remains part of the EU. About a quarter of the ministers who | :00:55. | :01:12. | |
sit with Mr Cameron in the Cabinet don't agree, they have said they | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
will campaign for the UK Tilly. We will be talking to one of those | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
wanting out, leader of the of commons, Chris Grayling. We will be | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
debating over which way this man will swing. The Mayor of London has | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
been apparently agonising over his decision, although all the money is | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
on him supporting the Lead campaign. Jeremy Corbyn wants to stay within | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
the EU saying it would be better for Security and investment. We will be | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
joined by the Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn. And with me, | :01:49. | :02:05. | |
three of Fleet street's finest, so, David Cameron has done a deal. Not | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
everyone is convinced, even one of the Prime Minister's best Cabinet | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
buddies, Michael Gove has decided to campaign on the Leeds side. Those | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
who want to stay and those who want to leave have come out all guns | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
blazing this morning. Let's see what David Cameron had to say on show | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
little earlier. If we stay within a reformed EU we know what we are | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
getting. We know how to deal with economic recovery, jobs, if we leave | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
them there is seven-year is uncertainty, and at the end of that | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
process can't be certain that our business will have access to the | :02:45. | :02:51. | |
market so it could cost jobs, or overseas business not investing in | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
Britain. It would be a step into the dark, a real uncertainty and that's | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
just doubt what we don't need in our country right now. Laura, the tone | :03:00. | :03:07. | |
in the language has changed. All the reports from you and others | :03:08. | :03:14. | |
whereabouts Cabinet meeting. Now, of course, the gloves are off. Teresa | :03:15. | :03:22. | |
Bailey is said it was very emotional. I think this is where we | :03:23. | :03:32. | |
will see gut emotions spilling out. He's moved into this campaigning | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
language, because the stakes are so high for him. He knows fine well | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
that he's taking a huge gamble with his only do ship. He's taking a huge | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
gamble with the country's membership the European Union, which he did say | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
he might argue any end to leave, though very few people believe that. | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
The other thing he's taking a gamble with is his own party's union. It | :03:55. | :04:01. | |
still impart a last-minute plea to those waivers to get on his side. | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
This is something we will see play out, perhaps quite dramatically, | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
this blue on blue action. David Cameron isn't going to stand up and | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
debate directly with people opposing him, so he's doing it in a different | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
way. Another thing he has said which was really quite strong and a bit | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
sharp, maybe, he suggested that those, including Boris Johnson who | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
wanted to campaign for out where linking arms with George Galloway | :04:32. | :04:39. | |
and Nigel Farage. What about the waivers? Boris Johnson. He wasn't | :04:40. | :04:50. | |
able to persuade Michael Gove or George Osborne. Will he campaign for | :04:51. | :05:01. | |
out? There is talk as to why the media are so assessed with one | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
politician, but it's not often may have single name recognition, as we | :05:05. | :05:11. | |
do from time to time, you go out campaigning with politicians to see | :05:12. | :05:19. | |
how they do. People come out of the shops to see Boris Johnson, they | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
want their pictures taken with him, he's a rare kind of politician. He | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
can add real fees to a campaign and cut through to the public. Some | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
people love him. Of course, some despise him, but be pointed his | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
addition into the out campaign, which is absolutely what we expect, | :05:37. | :05:44. | |
it will change the dynamics of the campaign, and particularly for the | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
Out side, who haven't landed one obvious leader, it would be a real | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
significant bill after them. We are finally going to hear from Boris at | :05:54. | :06:02. | |
10pm tonight. The surprise would be if he decided to stay in. You never | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
know with Boris Johnson. He's an unpredictable character, and | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
instinctively, many who know him well see at heart he is a Europhile, | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
he's not somebody who is naturally a sceptic. Just briefly, how is it | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
going to play out now between Cabinet ministers on either side. | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
Are they really going to go to hold it together over the weeks of | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
campaigning? One of the story things about this is that we have official | :06:31. | :06:37. | |
division, and officially divided Cabinet and in normal politics they | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
have to stick together, come hell or high water. I think people are going | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
to do their best to be polite, but I think friendships and loyalties will | :06:48. | :06:54. | |
be tested. What it does mean, all of the focus is going to be in Europe. | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
The challenge for David Cameron, whatever the result, is whether he | :07:00. | :07:01. | |
can keep the party together after the vote. So, after a near sleepless | :07:02. | :07:08. | |
night on Friday, European Union -- leaders were meant to agree a deal | :07:09. | :07:16. | |
over a civilised English breakfast. They didn't bother with afternoon | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
tea, in the end they came up trumps over dinner. History starts with a | :07:20. | :07:28. | |
lot of waiting around as I discovered on Friday. At least it's | :07:29. | :07:37. | |
not raining. Waiting for news from the EU summit, Westminster had | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
ground to a halt. Sniffing out any news from Brussels? European leaders | :07:41. | :07:47. | |
were on their second day of wrangling. The French president was | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
worried about the City of London getting a special deal. The Polish | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
Prime Minister feared that the citizens of hers living in the UK | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
would lose their benefits and the great pro Minister was concerned | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
about migrants. David Cameron says that he was battling for a debt deal | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
for Britain, which involved lots of talk, quite a few axons and not a | :08:07. | :08:16. | |
lot of action. Suddenly, back at Westminster, a thing happen. One of | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
the league campaigns, grassroots, out where it was rumoured it would | :08:22. | :08:30. | |
be a surprise supporter. Who'd you think is a special guest? For me, | :08:31. | :08:37. | |
probably Douglas Carswell? Sorry, it was actually George Galloway. | :08:38. | :08:44. | |
Comrades and friends. When he turned up, a bunch of people there. We | :08:45. | :08:52. | |
don't want anything to do with him. Do you often have that effect? It | :08:53. | :09:02. | |
looks pretty busy to me. About 50 people got up and left. My unaided. | :09:03. | :09:09. | |
There are people waiting for Nigel. You are clutching at straws there. | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
Finally in Brussels a deal to keep Britain in the EU was done over | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
dinner. The hacks were briefed by a clearly knackered Prime Minister. | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
Good evening, and welcome. Within the last hour I have ago she hated a | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
deal to give United Kingdom special status with inside the European | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
Union. Angela Merkel was snapped going for some chips. Which singer | :09:38. | :09:45. | |
Kurt Jolly good idea. Good night all. -- which seemed like a jolly | :09:46. | :09:53. | |
good idea. More waiting at Downing Street, this time for the first | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
Cabinet meeting on a weekend since the Falklands, and David Cameron's | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
chance to brief his colleagues on the deal. This is the deal, the EU | :10:03. | :10:09. | |
will exempt the UK from ever closer union. There will be safeguards for | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
the City of London. When it comes to in work benefits, the UK will be | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
able to apply the emergency brake which means the people migrating | :10:18. | :10:26. | |
will get the same rate for a few years. Time for ministers to give | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
their verdict. Home Secretary, are you Romanian? Chancellor, I'm | :10:34. | :10:44. | |
guessing your and in, aren't you? Each gave their answer in a two-hour | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
meeting in number ten, then the Prime Minister appeared to press a | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
button marked referendum. The choices in your hands. But my | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
recommendation is clear. Believe that Britain will be safer, stronger | :10:57. | :11:04. | |
and better of in a reformed European Union. And apparently now totally | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
fine for the members of the cabinets to disagree. What was it like when | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
Michael Gove spoke? Was he sad? Of course, because he and the Prime | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
Minister and the rest of us we we all know each other, the remarkable | :11:20. | :11:26. | |
thing about one of these -- this Government is that we know each | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
other, like each other and we are friends. We had each other's numbers | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
and we text and talk to each other. But the six ministers for the | :11:37. | :11:45. | |
outvote headed straight to the vote leave campaign headquarters. Free at | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
last to point the exit. I will be voting to leave the EU, because I'm | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
profoundly optimistic about the UK. I believe we can flourish outside | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
the European Union, so I think the better option is to take back | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
control, and restore the ability to make our own laws and controller | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
Rome borders in this country. Big smiles! Now the referendum campaign | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
will be brought to a street near you, like the Britain Stronger In | :12:16. | :12:24. | |
Europe, there is one more thing we are waiting for. Which side will | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
Boris Johnson join? He will reveal his intentions to night. Is he going | :12:29. | :12:36. | |
to campaign to come out? It looks very much like it. People that I've | :12:37. | :12:44. | |
spoken to, some pro-European MPs have now resigned themselves to | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
Boris going for Leave. Apparently, it was all down to this great big | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
incident he had with Michael Gove. There it was that Boris was given an | :12:54. | :13:00. | |
argument he found very hard to refuse. And it appears they've done | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
a deal to do this together. Is it more about leadership ambitions than | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
history feelings towards the EU? I think everyone is going to presume | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
that. Not least because Boris Johnson is known as an inner. He's | :13:14. | :13:21. | |
spent time in Brussels, New York. He's always been one for reform but | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
not for leaving. He's been telling people privately and quite openly | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
that he is going to campaign for in, so he's clearly worked out that the | :13:29. | :13:35. | |
electric that matters here for him, are the grassroots Tories and MPs | :13:36. | :13:43. | |
who are sceptical. But does he look sincere in doing this? He's going to | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
have to make a extremely good argument here tonight, as to why | :13:48. | :13:54. | |
he's done this U-turn. Let's talk about some of the substance, Melanie | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
Phillips, because there are people who say that actually, not many | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
people in the voting public will not look at the fine detail, they will | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
go on emotion. Do you think that's true, or do you think there are | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
salient issues that could capture the imagination? The two aren't | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
necessarily in contradiction with each other. They are both part of | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
it. There will play a great deal, will have a lot to do campaign. We | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
must cling on to the fear of something worse, which the promised | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
will continue to play on. I was struck by this morning's interview | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
with the Prime Minister, where he addressed the most important issue, | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
which is sovereignty and he redefined it. He was so keen to slip | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
away from it because it's a dangerous for him. The ultimate is | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
that Britain will still have no control over its own laws. It was | :14:50. | :14:58. | |
still be dictated significantly... He says it will be a mechanism. He's | :14:59. | :15:06. | |
clinging to his apparent concession that he's run out of them not to | :15:07. | :15:12. | |
have ever closer union. That's a a meaning -- meaningless thing. We in | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
Britain will be still bound by Europe. He's floated some sort of | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
constitutional settlement. This is a nonsense because there is nothing | :15:23. | :15:32. | |
that can override that superiority. Opponents of the EU appeared vexed | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
that we have no ability to make our own laws, but aren't bothered about | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
the fact that we can decide whether we can go to war not. There could be | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
a situation with Turkey and Russia could find themselves at war. What | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
happens then? We are then bounce to go to war on Turkey's behalf because | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
Turkey is a member of Nato. And posers of the European Union don't | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
seem bothered by that and that will be an argument that the prime in to | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
use. Will security be the overriding thing that convinces people? The | :16:08. | :16:10. | |
winners of this campaign will be the thing that convinces people? The | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
safest option, and the losers will be the riskiest option. That's why | :16:15. | :16:17. | |
every other word the Prime Minister says is about risk. He is saying, | :16:18. | :16:24. | |
what are you out as having as a vision for outside the European | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
Union. As we've been hearing, as soon as David Cameron announced the | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
referendum, campaign that attack members of the Cabinet were given | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
free rein. So who will be campaigning to see in and he will be | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
campaigning to leave? So, the deal has been done and it time for | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
ministers to pick a side. No surprise that George Osborne, David | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
Cameron and Philip Hammond were how campaigning to stay in. They will be | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
pleased that potential outers, Liz truss, Savage added, and Theresa May | :17:00. | :17:12. | |
are remaining in the remaining team. These politicians will be | :17:13. | :17:15. | |
campaigning to leave and they will be cheering that Michael Gove, after | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
much soul-searching, has plucked for the leave camp. However, there is | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
one big-name waiting on the sidelines. Boris Johnson. His | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
support could sway a lot of voters. Surely it can't be long to wait now. | :17:29. | :17:34. | |
And the Leader of the House of Commons, Chris Grayling, is with us | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
now. Why do you think the deal that the Prime Minister secured was | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
enough? He's made some progress in Brussels and we give him credit for | :17:45. | :17:47. | |
that, but does this represent a transformation that would see to me, | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
we should stay within the European Union? No, it doesn't. I think it | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
holds us back. I think these we should be taking for our country. | :17:58. | :18:04. | |
But the ability to decide how many people come to live and work here. | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
Forging free-trade deals round the world. We are spending ?350 million | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
a week on subscriptions to the EU that should and could be spent on | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
the National Health Service. That doesn't take into account the rebate | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
that the UK get. So, in your mind, the Prime Minister has failed in his | :18:27. | :18:35. | |
attempt to secure fundamental. What he's brought back is a deal for a | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
sustained European Union. I don't agree. I think we should leave. That | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
will be the debate in the next few months. What could he have done to | :18:46. | :18:48. | |
secure your support? There are key questions about our membership in | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
the EU, and we talked a moment ago about risk. The ability to control | :18:54. | :19:00. | |
our borders, set limits on those who work here. All our national | :19:01. | :19:03. | |
statisticians are saying that our population is going to rise | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
significantly. I don't think we can cope without estimation. I don't | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
think we have the houses, hospitals, school places. Your Government | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
hasn't done anything about migration figures, has it? One of the reasons | :19:19. | :19:21. | |
we can't do anything about it is because of the free movement rules | :19:22. | :19:28. | |
in the European Union. What would be acceptable for a migration level for | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
you? Its 330,000 now. If the UK pulled out of the EU, you would get | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
levels of tens of thousands? We would have the ability to set | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
limits. We could look at the migration pressures that we face and | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
where we have skills needs. We can take decisions in the interest of | :19:51. | :19:53. | |
Britain at the moment we cannot do that. So, there isn't anything that | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
David Cameron could have secured because you boys wanted to come out | :19:59. | :20:05. | |
of the EU. I've sat through European meetings for five years. I do not | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
believe we are probably able to look after our national interests, our | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
businesses, our citizens. I think too many decisions have been passed | :20:16. | :20:18. | |
to Brussels. Michael Gove brightly yesterday talked about the number of | :20:19. | :20:25. | |
changes that come across our desks as ministers that we can't do | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
anything about it. Give me an example of something you cant | :20:30. | :20:36. | |
because of the EU? In the arena of health and safety, there were | :20:37. | :20:38. | |
changes that were brought in that were going to cost British | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
businesses money. Which one did you not what to bring in? You always | :20:44. | :20:46. | |
talk about regulations and so do others and euro-sceptic ministers, | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
but which specific bills we are not able to pass, which laws were forced | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
on you by the EU? I would not have imposed massive change -- it took | :20:57. | :21:08. | |
years to reduce a package that could been damaging. You want to strip | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
away health and said -- safety regulations? The youth that example | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
before. You'd like to get rid of that. I want us as a nation to | :21:19. | :21:27. | |
decide what health and safety rules we want in the UK, not to happen | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
imposed on us. I want less regulation. I want the right | :21:32. | :21:38. | |
regulation. I don't want huge extra burdens put on business. What was | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
the atmosphere like in the Cabinet yesterday? Cordial. It was a | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
friendly meeting. The Prime Minister immediately accepted that they were | :21:48. | :21:50. | |
different views around the table, but we all committed to working in | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
the next few months for the cause that we believe in, on one side or | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
the other in a constructive and friendly way. It would be dominated | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
by this issue, won't it? We don't have two attack each other | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
personally. It's already happening, though. You've already said that the | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
Prime Minister is scare mongering and you said it will be project | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
fear. That's not friendly and cordial. I haven't actually said | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
that. You said it's too risky to leave. I criticised easyJet who have | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
said somehow that cheap airfares could disappear from Europe. That's | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
nonsense. There are regional airports in constant Europe that | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
would go bust if it wasn't for low-cost aviation for the United | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
Kingdom. It's simply not true. You can guarantee that, can you, to the | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
British people? You can guarantee these things for the British people | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
the day after we vote to be the EU? Why would people in continental | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
Europe cost themselves money? You can't guarantee, can you Rhys ask | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
yourself a question, on the day after Britain leads the European | :23:01. | :23:03. | |
Union, the Germans will say we aren't going to sell Brent W is to | :23:04. | :23:06. | |
the British? There will be a trade deal, you are absolutely right. The | :23:07. | :23:15. | |
issue is, will it be the same deal? Will there be full access for the UK | :23:16. | :23:23. | |
to goods and services? Are you saying that they will be this utopia | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
where the same deal will be struck. We wait have to be part of freedom | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
of movement use and we won't have to pay a penny towards the EU? Is that | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
what you're saying the British people. We are... Can you guarantee | :23:36. | :23:42. | |
that we will have full access to trade and services in the way that | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
exists now, without freedom of movement and without paying into the | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
EU? Why would they take a risk with jobs in Germany and France, and | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
other European countries by not agreeing a proper, modern free-trade | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
agreement for goods and services. They ran a massive trade surplus | :24:03. | :24:05. | |
with us. They sell more to ask them we sell to them. They lose out | :24:06. | :24:12. | |
financially those trading agreements not continue. I'm not saying they | :24:13. | :24:15. | |
will continue forth upon talking about the terms. Everyone says we | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
don't know what outward look like, what I'm tried to get from you is | :24:20. | :24:25. | |
how long would it take? Two years? Seven years like Canada? And would | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
be on the same terms we have now? Why would it not be on a free trade | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
basis because it costs them money. It doesn't cost us financially free | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
don't have a free-trade agreement, is Germany, France and other | :24:40. | :24:46. | |
European crunchies. -- European countries. How long do you think | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
that will take? It will take a relatively short period of time. How | :24:50. | :24:56. | |
long? If it Canada seven-year 's? How long will it take the UK? There | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
is a process of negotiation set out in the treaty. I would not expect | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
those countries to take a risk because at the end of two years they | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
would lose out financially. Well, even over the negotiations, they | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
have said, particularly Francois Hollande, that actually he's not | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
going to give special treatment to Great Britain. Why would these | :25:20. | :25:22. | |
countries, who's been polled through the ringer over negotiations then | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
suddenly immediately, on your timescale want to set up favourable | :25:28. | :25:35. | |
terms of trade with the EU? Is Francois Hollande going to say to | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
farmers, who are a fairly lively bunch, you don't have too sell your | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
wine, cheese or agricultural products to Britain. Why would he | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
take that political breeze? That we don't know the terms. You admit | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
that. We know what you would like and you can't believe it would be | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
another option, but it is a risk, isn't it? That's what the Prime | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
Minister is saying and he is right. It's a risk for the French not have | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
a free-trade agreement with us, because otherwise their businesses | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
lose out. With the Business Secretary doesn't agree with you and | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
he says you are wrong. He says it's too risky for business. I think the | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
risk is on the other side. Is he wrong to say the risk is too great? | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
We run huge trade deficit with continental Europe. The Business | :26:25. | :26:35. | |
Secretary is contradicting you. What do you know that he doesn't? We have | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
different views around the Cabinet table, and we set those out | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
yesterday. Some of us were in and some, out. We will have the ultimate | :26:44. | :26:49. | |
over the next few months that in a constructive way. He's a good | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
Business Secretary and he's the be unhappy about the European Union. | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
But he is campaigning to remain. He's been loyal to the Prime | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
Minister. We've taken different views in this. We're both loyal to | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
the Prime Minister. Well you're not on this issue, right you? Government | :27:06. | :27:12. | |
ministers are free to take their own decision on this argument. It's a | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
brave, bold decision and I agree with it. You worried about your job | :27:17. | :27:23. | |
if you lose in a referendum? Why, it could be a situation where David | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
Cameron will say to you in your colleagues who are campaigning out, | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
that South. Game over. He can decide the construct of his Government in | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
his own way in the future. This is a matter of principle for me. It's not | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
about my career, my job. So, you're prepared to lose your job? And doing | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
what I believe is the right thing for the country. It's neither here | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
nor there in job terms, I'm doing it for the country. I think it's the | :27:52. | :27:57. | |
low risk option for my country. Is it right that a majority Government, | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
for the first time in years, fighting, spit and divided over this | :28:03. | :28:09. | |
issue? People expect us as politicians to be grown-up. They | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
don't expect us to agree all the time. We are not automatons. We are | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
going to have a constructive debate because we disagree but we are going | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
to stay friends, respectful of the Prime Minister and work together | :28:22. | :28:24. | |
that we carry on governing the country well. If you win is the | :28:25. | :28:31. | |
Prime Minister had to go? So, you trust him, totally to renegotiate | :28:32. | :28:38. | |
bilateral trade agreements as the prime in this who campaigned to stay | :28:39. | :28:45. | |
in the EU. I campaigned for him as the row minister who gave the | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
country a bold choice. He will lead us in Government if we stay | :28:50. | :28:55. | |
organised. He would really be favoured person to lead those | :28:56. | :28:57. | |
negotiations. You'd still trust after this? I'd still trust. In | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
terms of your colleagues, do you think it would be possible for him | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
to stay? Absolutely. What we don't need at the end of this, whether we | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
vote to leave or stay is a elliptical bloodbath. We've got a | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
good team. It needs to carry on and do what the country needs is today. | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
How big boost would Boris beat your campaign? He would be a great boost | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
I don't know what his intentions but I hope will. If you lose will that | :29:27. | :29:38. | |
be a? If the people vote then -- in then we'll probably won't return to | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
it. Will that be for a generation? If we stay there we stay, if we | :29:45. | :29:50. | |
leave them we leave. Now, what of labour? Jeremy Corbyn has been | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
sceptical of the EU in the past. He voted to leave the European economic | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
meet in 1975. Times have changed, though. The Labour leader says the | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
EU brings investment, and protection. In a moment, we'll be | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
talking to the Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn, that let's | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
hear what Jeremy Corbyn had to say speaking in Wales yesterday. We were | :30:18. | :30:25. | |
voted to stay in the EU because it brings protection for British | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
workers and consumer -- consumers. We believe it's a vital framework | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
for Corporation in the 21st-century, and the vote to remain using the | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
best interests of our people. But, we want progressive change in | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
Europe, to make the EU works for working people, that includes | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
workers rights, putting jobs and sustainable growth at the heart of | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
economic policy, greater accountability of institutions, and | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
a halt, and absolute halt to privatise public services by some | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
element in the European Union. And Hilary Benn joins me now. Dit David | :31:07. | :31:12. | |
Cameron do a good deal? Well, he went through this whole process | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
because of splits within the Conservative Party. It hasn't | :31:18. | :31:20. | |
changed our view. We are in favour of remaining. He announced there was | :31:21. | :31:26. | |
don't be a referendum, renegotiation and we are still in favour. It | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
hasn't made a difference in that respect. But some of the changes, | :31:31. | :31:37. | |
the red card, that something that is good for Britain. A red card on laws | :31:38. | :31:47. | |
we don't like? I think that it's a good thing. The changes on child | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
benefit, we believe in fair contribution, but, this referendum | :31:53. | :31:55. | |
is not in the end going to be about David Cameron's deal, is going to be | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
about whether we are better off In or Out. Chris Grayling wasn't able | :32:01. | :32:07. | |
to answer your perfect their question about what trade | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
relationships will replace the free access to the largest single market | :32:12. | :32:14. | |
in the world because we are in the EU. Let's go back to the deal. You | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
see why make a difference, but you do concede that introducing a red | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
card, some sort of challenge to EU laws that UK doesn't lie, and | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
restriction on child benefits, even though exact that they went exactly | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
what the Prime Minister promised? Those changes that we ourselves | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
called for, but when it comes to this decision, it's about much, much | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
than that. It hasn't changed Labour's view about the case for | :32:44. | :32:46. | |
Britain remaining in the European Union, because it's good for jobs, | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
investment and growth. Let's take an example. We export cars to Europe | :32:52. | :32:58. | |
with no tariff. When the Japanese and Americans export then they had | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
to pay a 10 cents tariff. That's what the single market means. That's | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
why there's a lot of investment in Britain, investment in the car | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
industry which is now growing and expanding. People thought it was on | :33:11. | :33:18. | |
the way out. It isn't. Why wouldn't we -- we can't guarantee that. No | :33:19. | :33:27. | |
one voting out can guarantee access. There could be high skill jobs that | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
depend on that. They wouldn't go, would they? That is project fear, as | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
Nick Clegg used to say that 3 million jobs would disappear. That's | :33:38. | :33:43. | |
not based in fact, is it? I'm not saying that. Let's look at the | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
alternative, we've got no way. In order to get access to the single | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
market, Norway has to pay a contribution which is the same per | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
capita as ours. They have to accept all the rules. But that's because | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
the Norwegian establishment wanted that. But they don't have any say | :34:01. | :34:07. | |
over the rules in Europe. Now, how is that an advantage, an improvement | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
on what we've got now? It isn't. It's a worse deal. Even the | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
Norwegians don't recommend that we go down that route. That's why the | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
league campaign is, as we've just seen with Chris Grayling's inability | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
to answer your question is that they cannot tell us what our would look | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
like, so why we take the risk? Are you saying that Britain just can't | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
survive outside E U. You are implying that this country can do | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
well on its own. Because survive, that you are scaremongering in that | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
sense. That's what brexit-mac ministers are saying. Four. Are you | :34:42. | :34:50. | |
saying that this country isn't capable of being able to run its own | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
affairs. I'm making this argument, we'll ready have a lot of great | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
trade deals with other countries in the world precisely because we are | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
part of the EU, which gives us tariff free access. We are part of | :35:06. | :35:08. | |
the largest single market in the world. Why would we trade what we've | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
got at the moment, which is good deals, for the price that -- of | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
deals that are just as good when guys that have campaigned to leave | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
can't tell us what it will look like. Are you happy with levels of | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
net migration? What about our borders? The issue of free movement | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
in the European Union is that it's part of the rules. So there would be | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
limitless migration in that sense, over the next 5-10 years, bearing in | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
mind with what's happening in the moment, it will be impossible to | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
bring those levels down. What's happening in the world as a separate | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
argument if you are talking outside of the European Union. Once those | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
people within the EU get citizenship then they will be ever to come over | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
to Britain, rightly or wrongly. But it is something people are concerned | :35:58. | :36:00. | |
about. Being part of the EU does mean that being part of the EU means | :36:01. | :36:06. | |
that we cannot control our borders. If we look at the number of people | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
Germany are taken in because of the crisis in Syria. It will be many | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
years before they can acquire citizenship. I do think they would | :36:15. | :36:20. | |
choose to move from Germany to the United Kingdom in large numbers. | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
Look at the economic opportunities and standards in Germany. There are | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
many British people who living and working in other European countries, | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
and EU migrants who have come to Britain who are working as nurses, | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
lecturers and in manufacturing, and they are paying into the British | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
economy. They are net contributors, as you know because they work and | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
pay tax. That gives us more revenue of the country. Did you agree with | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
Jeremy Corbyn attacking the deal, particularly because of the brake on | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
benefits to EU migrants? Our view on that is that we believe in fair | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
contribution. Jeremy Corbyn said the deal is tinkering around the edges, | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
particularly when the focus is on a brake on benefits for EU migrants. | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
He doesn't like it. Do you? We agreed that there aren't abuse and | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
is the right price. Are you sure he signed up to that? We are agreed | :37:16. | :37:21. | |
that their contribution is the right approach he was making a different | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
argument. His argument was that it is irrelevant to the view that | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
Labour is taking about the benefits and being in the European Union. It | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
doesn't change our position in that sense. Jeremy's is campaigning to | :37:35. | :37:44. | |
stay in as are the whole Labour Party. So will you share a platform | :37:45. | :37:51. | |
with David Cameron. I won't. The Prime Minister can make his case to | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
his party which is bitterly divided, as we've seen, over the last few | :37:56. | :38:02. | |
months. You were always going to stay within the EU, thereby backing | :38:03. | :38:08. | |
the status quo. Why wouldn't you share a platform with the Prime | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
Minister. Surely it's too big an issue to be partisan? We make our | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
own arguments in a railway to try and win the case. The Prime Minister | :38:19. | :38:24. | |
can do the same in his way in his party, with the people he's seeking | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
to persuade. In the end, the decision that the British people | :38:28. | :38:34. | |
make is we safer? This is important, because in the last decade or so, | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
5000 people who were suspected of crimes had been removed from the | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
country to face justice elsewhere. One of the bombers on the 21st of | :38:44. | :38:53. | |
July fled to Italy, and he was returned to Britain to face justice | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
and he was convicted. Why? Because of the European arrest warrant. | :38:59. | :39:01. | |
These are practical considerations that show we are safer being in the | :39:02. | :39:03. | |
EU rather than leaving. Good morning and welcome | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme: | :39:09. | :39:10. | |
We know the date. And on the streets of Scotland, | :39:11. | :39:12. | |
campaign groups are quick to get It was the worst kept secret | :39:13. | :39:16. | |
in British politics, but now the details | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
have been confirmed. The Prime Minister came | :39:22. | :39:23. | |
home with a deal which, he says, is good enough | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
to keep the UK in the EU. Though his political opponents have | :39:27. | :39:29. | |
already dismissed it as pathetic. So the starting gun has been fired | :39:30. | :39:31. | |
for that In Out Euro referendum, which will take place | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
on Thursday the 23 June. Get your Jhumpa Lahiri gladrags on! | :39:37. | :39:54. | |
The Eurovision Song contest announced a change to the voting | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
system since its bigger shake-up since 1975 and now David Cameron | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
says he has done a deal which means that Britain should stay in the E U. | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
Our plan for Europe gives us the best of both worlds. It underlines | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
our special status, through which families across Britain get all the | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
benefits of being in the EU, including more jobs, lower prices | :40:19. | :40:24. | |
and greater security. But our special status also means we're out | :40:25. | :40:27. | |
of those parts of Europe that do not work for asked. It's already clear | :40:28. | :40:36. | |
that not everyone is convinced. Bring back full control of our own | :40:37. | :40:43. | |
affairs to the UK, so we asked three of the European court of justice, | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
the unelected bureaucracy in Brussels, and we are free to set up | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
our own trade agreements with other countries around the world. And we | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
are free to cooperate with our nearest neighbours, on our turns. | :40:57. | :41:08. | |
But the main political parties in Scotland will all be campaigning to | :41:09. | :41:13. | |
stay in the EU. Let's hear the case, and the SNP will be making the case | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
for Scotland to stay in the EU, because it's good for jobs, | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
protections, social employment, and it's good to enable independent | :41:23. | :41:30. | |
countries come together to have sovereignty, and deal with things | :41:31. | :41:32. | |
like climate change and the refugee crisis. Scots farmers believe on | :41:33. | :41:42. | |
balance we are better off. We want to stay because Westminster have | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
said nothing. There's been nothing said about agriculture in Europe. | :41:47. | :41:53. | |
40% of the European budget directed at agriculture means it's important | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
it's got right. If there's an eternity of weed consider, but for | :41:58. | :42:09. | |
the moment we want to stay in. Jerry the independence referendum, the EU | :42:10. | :42:18. | |
told us to get stuffed -- during. I don't see why should go to an | :42:19. | :42:21. | |
organisation that told us to get stuffed. I think they will tell us | :42:22. | :42:30. | |
to get stuffed in the second independence referendum. I've got | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
more fundamental objections than that it's a profoundly undemocratic | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
organisation. He says that Brexit could mean a bright future for | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
Scotland, independent and a member of the free trade area. I wish that | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
some people in the SNP leadership would go and have a look at the | :42:48. | :42:53. | |
Treaty. If the UK emerges with a very good trade agreement, then it's | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
much easier for Scotland to peel off as an independent member and still | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
be associated with that trade agreement with the rest of the EU, | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
giving us the access that we want to that 500 million market, but at the | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
same time, allowing us to be much more sovereign than we would be if | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
we were a small member states in the EU, ruled by a Brussels. But a | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
different vision which is simpler and bureaucratic. I'd like to see | :43:23. | :43:28. | |
reforms along the lines of more simplification, and are taking away | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
of the regulations that are causing problems within our industry. It's | :43:33. | :43:40. | |
not really delivering an awful lot. It's a deep joy to be here and I'm | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
happy to announce the results of the United Kingdom. So, now will have to | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
see if David Cameron's deal will get UK votes or Null point. | :43:50. | :44:01. | |
I'm joined by Kiran Stacey from the Financial Times. | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
There's a lot of talk about Boris Johnson. Do you think it makes a | :44:06. | :44:12. | |
difference what way he jumps? I think it makes more difference than | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
the way Michael Gove jump. He cuts through on a level which many | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
politicians aren't able to, even David Cameron. He has a status in | :44:22. | :44:27. | |
the public mind which transcend politics and if he goes out and | :44:28. | :44:30. | |
makes a populist case for the EU, that will be herds in a way that | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
other members of the Cabinet which voters might not have heard of, are | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
able to make that point. If you have a look at all the choreography | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
behind Boris's move, is difficult to see that he would be backing the UK | :44:46. | :44:53. | |
saying in the EU after all. Do you think he'd be an automatic leader of | :44:54. | :45:00. | |
the league campaign, because one of the dangers they have, Cabinet | :45:01. | :45:07. | |
ministers about, perhaps interesting cranks and oddballs, that | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
nevertheless cranks and oddballs. The question is which group is going | :45:12. | :45:17. | |
to lead. Vote lead? Leaves EU? There a number of factions battling the | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
supremacy. There is a faction around Nigel Farage who is saying that | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
there should be a campaign to Leeds based on the core vote. And there's | :45:28. | :45:33. | |
more cross-party consensus which involves people from Labour, the | :45:34. | :45:36. | |
Conservatives, and they save they need to lead a more moderate, broad | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
wide ranging campaign. I think RS would fit better into that latter | :45:43. | :45:45. | |
group and perhaps ease the figure to bring the two camps together, but at | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
the moment, they are so divided that they will keep fighting for the next | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
few months until the electoral commission decides who is in charge. | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
On the other side of the argument, the stay in people, they will be led | :45:59. | :46:04. | |
by David Cameron, Nicola Sturgeon has been clear the SNP will be | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
campaigning BS, so it's all going well, but could that be the problem? | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
One of the phenomena we are seeing in Europe, at the moment, is that | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
people just want to give a bloody nose to the establishment, and it | :46:18. | :46:23. | |
anything looks like the political establishment in Britain gang up on | :46:24. | :46:26. | |
one side of the argument, this is it. I think that's slightly and | :46:27. | :46:34. | |
overdone argument. If you look at the 2015 results for the election, | :46:35. | :46:41. | |
it was a surprise result. I think voters want to give a bloody nice | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
politicians when they think the stakes are a little bit lower. So, | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
at an EU election, they might go vote en masse for a party like Ukip, | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
but when I think it comes to the really big stuff, they are much more | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
cautious. Especially on an issue where lots of people haven't been | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
engaged in the argument, it don't necessarily care about a comic | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
doesn't affect their daily lives. I think that most people will be risk | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
averse and think they are better of staying where they are because they | :47:15. | :47:16. | |
know what happened in the current setup stop do you think the Yes | :47:17. | :47:23. | |
Campaign has to get a certain tone to it. Nicola Sturgeon make the | :47:24. | :47:37. | |
point that initially -- all the momentum went towards them during | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
the campaign and they were seen as more positive, and that the stay in | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
campaign in Europe doesn't have that margin to lose? I think it does have | :47:48. | :47:54. | |
a bit of margin to lose. I think a negative campaign, which is what | :47:55. | :47:57. | |
Nicola Sturgeon is warning against, could be effective by saying that | :47:58. | :48:04. | |
voting for things with huge risks, it means there are like to vote for | :48:05. | :48:06. | |
it. That very briefly, do you expect | :48:07. | :48:21. | |
business to come out, like big multinational companies, much sooner | :48:22. | :48:28. | |
than in the Scottish Referendum and say, look, hang on, folks. Your jobs | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
will go for we leave the EU. And I could see the trade union saying, do | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
you know what's? They are right. I think you'd start to see that very | :48:40. | :48:45. | |
same. The CBI, who have always been EU, have come out. And I think other | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
organisations will join them. They will save jobs are on the line. They | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
will couch it carefully but the message will be clear. | :48:54. | :48:55. | |
Joining me now is the MP Stephen Gethins, who is the SNP's | :48:56. | :48:58. | |
And John Mills, who is the founder of consumer product empire JML | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
John Mills, before we talk about the actual issues, just on the Labour | :49:04. | :49:21. | |
Lead campaign, does it concern you that the doesn't appear to be any | :49:22. | :49:25. | |
major figures in the Labour Party involved in it? I think you've got | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
to wait and see what happens over the next day or two. I think you'll | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
find more Labour figures will declare in favour Britain to leave | :49:34. | :49:39. | |
the EU, and that will be a very welcome development. But the point | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
is, with the Conservatives talking about Boris Johnson, I'm not sure | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
there's anyone in the Labour Party with that kind of clout and | :49:49. | :49:51. | |
influence you could come and join your campaign. I think we've got | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
major figures who are well-known to the that you will see. Boris Johnson | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
is in a class of his own, I'll admit. If he comes to the league | :50:01. | :50:08. | |
campaign then it will be a big plus. He does reach out to people in a way | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
that other politicians to, I think it will be a real acid becomes | :50:14. | :50:21. | |
on-board. -- a big asset if he comes on board. | :50:22. | :50:32. | |
What is Labour lead's attitudes or are you happy to join up with anyone | :50:33. | :50:41. | |
who is interested in leaving. We don't take the view that we only | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
want to campaign on our own. We are happy to campaign with everyone who | :50:47. | :50:50. | |
shares our views about coming out of the EU, and we think that unity | :50:51. | :50:57. | |
across the board there is a big plus. Stephen, what about the SNP on | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
that front? Are you going to have your own SNP campaign? Nicola | :51:03. | :51:05. | |
Sturgeon was asked about this and rather neatly avoided it by saying | :51:06. | :51:10. | |
that David Cameron won't necessarily want to share a platform with her. | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
Should he want to, what would your attitude to that the? I think the | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
SNP will run its own campaign. I want to see a yes vote in Scotland, | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
and I don't know how much David Cameron can Andrew do -- contribute | :51:25. | :51:32. | |
to that. Boris Johnson might cut through, but I do did make a lot of | :51:33. | :51:38. | |
difference in Scotland. But Bruce Davidson could help you? Yet. They | :51:39. | :51:46. | |
are still bumping along, they've just got the worst result since | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
1865, so we just want to focus on having our own column a positive | :51:51. | :51:54. | |
campaign, and talk about the benefits we get from sharing common | :51:55. | :52:00. | |
rules on issues, and helping us to trade with our neighbours, and | :52:01. | :52:05. | |
educational benefits, workers rights. Brussels has made a lot more | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
progress than London did on workers' writes and these are the issues we | :52:11. | :52:16. | |
want to campaign on. You just heard is John Mills outlining a social | :52:17. | :52:25. | |
democratic case. You want the case for leaving, what is it? I think | :52:26. | :52:31. | |
that there are a number of things in the number of people in this country | :52:32. | :52:37. | |
who are worried about the cost, migration. They are worried about | :52:38. | :52:44. | |
some of the effects that the budget is spent, particularly on | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
agriculture, and with high food prices, there. But they are worried | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
about Chrissy, the European Union having to move towards migration and | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
the euro zone, which is not where people want to be. So, I think | :53:00. | :53:02. | |
there's a very strong social democratic case to say we are better | :53:03. | :53:08. | |
to come out and negotiate a better deal than we got at the moment. But | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
watch would you reply to Stephen's points at about workers right. He | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
argues that they've been more protected by the European Union | :53:19. | :53:23. | |
British governments? I think there's some truth in that that the European | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
Union led the way, but the idea that Britain came out -- that if Britain | :53:28. | :53:33. | |
came out of the EU, then all these rights will be swept away. There are | :53:34. | :53:41. | |
some issues around the edges about a 48-hour week, but generally | :53:42. | :53:44. | |
speaking, there's complete unity across-the-board now. That workers | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
rights on paternity need to stay in place and I'm sure they will do. | :53:49. | :53:55. | |
Stephen, what about that? Not least because you disagree with the new | :53:56. | :53:59. | |
trade union legislation, but George Osborne and David Cameron have made | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
a great play that they want to be on the side of working people. Well, | :54:04. | :54:10. | |
they might make a great play a bit, but I'm not sure that that stands up | :54:11. | :54:15. | |
to the facts. If we withdraw from the EU, these powers go to London. | :54:16. | :54:23. | |
Now, we've had nothing about powers returning to Scotland or Wales, or | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
island. So, leaving ourselves at the mercy of London, is not something I | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
feel entirely comfortable with. In this debate, there's a good | :54:34. | :54:36. | |
opportunity to talk about the benefits we get to the European | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
Union. We are quick to criticise, even when the UK signs up to these | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
measures, but the EU doesn't always get the benefit of some of the good | :54:46. | :54:48. | |
that it's done over the years, and I think there's an opportunity to do | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
that over the coming months. What your opponents will argue is, let's | :54:53. | :54:59. | |
take this question of health and safety, social legislation that | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
affects workers' hours, at the bottom line here is that you should | :55:04. | :55:09. | |
be up to Britain to democratically elect governments who in a | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
democratic manner, decided what those rights should be. But what -- | :55:14. | :55:20. | |
you might like -- you might not like the results, but this is the | :55:21. | :55:23. | |
alternative to Brussels imposing democratic governments in Britain | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
things which they don't necessarily agree with. First of all, with the | :55:29. | :55:35. | |
UK Government disagreeing on what's is going on in Brussels, the UK | :55:36. | :55:41. | |
Government hasn't yet voted against a proposal that had to be adopted, | :55:42. | :55:46. | |
finally. In terms of issues like health and safety, the UK signs up | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
to this because we have a common set of rules that are greed throughout | :55:51. | :55:53. | |
Europe, so it's a level playing field, which makes it a lot easier | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
for businesses and other organisations to go out and work | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
together. So, there are benefits to that. John Mills, what's your | :56:02. | :56:08. | |
response -- response going to be about sovereignty, being made | :56:09. | :56:10. | |
increasingly by supporters of staying in. They are saying that we | :56:11. | :56:17. | |
are members of Nato, that should Turkey end up in a war with Russia, | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
which is not inconceivable over the next few weeks, we would be bound by | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
the rules of Nato to join in on Turkey's side. That's a much greater | :56:27. | :56:32. | |
succession of sovereignty than one could almost imagine happening in | :56:33. | :56:39. | |
the EU. There's a difference between our role in Nato 's and other | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
organisations which are essentially intergovernmental. In the EU, it's | :56:44. | :56:50. | |
different. The EU law is superior to British law, and I think that's very | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
undemocratic. I think it would be better if we have the same sort of | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
relationship with the rest of the European Union as we do in Nato and | :57:00. | :57:04. | |
the United Nations. The logic of what you are saying is that | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
difference would only exist, to take my hypothetical example of Turkey | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
and Russia, Britain turning round and saying we don't want any of | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
that, we will leave Nato. We'd have the right to do that because of an | :57:18. | :57:20. | |
interdict that -- intergovernmental agreement. You got to look at recent | :57:21. | :57:30. | |
events where countries have different views about what sort of | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
action should be taken, Nato is a really presenting united front on | :57:35. | :57:41. | |
this any more than the Union is. We're running out of time. Stephen, | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
I wanted to ask you about the No Campaign in Scotland, the timing. | :57:47. | :57:49. | |
I'm not sure I'm best place for that, Gordon! You were opposed to | :57:50. | :57:56. | |
David Cameron's timing on this. I know you were disappointed that the | :57:57. | :58:03. | |
European elections happen before the Scottish Referendum in Ukip won a | :58:04. | :58:08. | |
seat. Because of the meshing of these two things, is your concern | :58:09. | :58:12. | |
that you could get a lot more publicity and potentially did quite | :58:13. | :58:16. | |
well in the Scottish elections? Look, Ukip have yet to see the | :58:17. | :58:23. | |
deposit in a Parliamentary election, so perhaps a bit of an irrelevance. | :58:24. | :58:30. | |
The reason we want to see a long campaign is because I think the case | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
for Scotland as a member of the EU, and the UK, stands up to scrutiny, | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
so let's put it under scrutiny, and as Nicola Sturgeon wrote in her | :58:41. | :58:43. | |
letter and as was agreed by the first ministers of Northern Ireland | :58:44. | :58:49. | |
and Wales, to having just six weeks to do this was not a lot of time. | :58:50. | :58:52. | |
I'll be back at the usual time of 11.00am next week. | :58:53. | :58:57. |