28/02/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


28/02/2016

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer are joined by Lord Michael Howard and Alan Johnson to discuss the EU referendum. Panellists include Janan Ganesh, Isabel Oakeshott and Nick Watt.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 28/02/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:35.:00:38.

The Prime Minister rams home his claim that leaving

:00:39.:00:40.

the European Union puts jobs, security, even

:00:41.:00:42.

Many Tories don't like his arguments - or his tone.

:00:43.:00:47.

David Cameron's mentor and former Tory leader Michael Howard will be

:00:48.:00:51.

here to tell us why he thinks it's safe for Britain to leave,

:00:52.:00:55.

and Labour big beast Alan Johnson will make the case for staying in.

:00:56.:01:00.

Labour's not exactly united when it comes to renewing Trident.

:01:01.:01:04.

That didn't stop Jeremy Corbyn telling protestors yesterday

:01:05.:01:07.

that he believes in a nuclear-free Britain.

:01:08.:01:11.

Following the death of young Conservative activist

:01:12.:01:13.

Elliott Johnson amid allegations of bullying within the party,

:01:14.:01:17.

we've spoken to one of those close to the centre of the story

:01:18.:01:20.

Who are these people who aren't the lead or threatened? Nobody has come

:01:21.:01:35.

forward and there is evidence I didn't do those things.

:01:36.:01:36.

Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland:

:01:37.:01:38.

rally in London yesterday, the GMB challenges Labour to say

:01:39.:01:42.

where the replacement jobs of its members will come from.

:01:43.:01:48.

All that to come - and with me for the duration,

:01:49.:01:54.

three journalists who show as much consensus on the big political

:01:55.:01:57.

For balance I should say they fall out as often as Jeremy Corbyn's

:01:58.:02:06.

It's Nick Watt, Isabel Oakshott and Janan Ganesh.

:02:07.:02:10.

And speaking of cabinet unity, there's a distinct lack

:02:11.:02:12.

of it in this morning's papers

:02:13.:02:13.

of campaigning since David Cameron announced that a referendum

:02:14.:02:17.

on Britain's EU membership will take place on the 23rd of June.

:02:18.:02:20.

The Fleet Street hounds have caught the scent of a good old-fashioned

:02:21.:02:23.

Conservative feud over Europe, and with the party and the cabinet

:02:24.:02:25.

divided over whether Britain should stay or go, they're not

:02:26.:02:28.

The Sunday Times says David Cameron has been warned

:02:29.:02:31.

that he'll face a leadership challenge if he doesn't call a halt

:02:32.:02:34.

to so-called 'blue on blue' attacks on fellow Conservatives.

:02:35.:02:36.

The Sunday Telegraph reports on the 'battle of wills'

:02:37.:02:38.

between the two sides with pieces by David Cameron

:02:39.:02:43.

and Iain Duncan Smith, who says 'they can sack me

:02:44.:02:46.

The Observer leads with Number 10's main message,

:02:47.:02:52.

which is to say that a British exit would spark decades

:02:53.:02:55.

And the Mail on Sunday says the Tory feud turned really

:02:56.:03:05.

nasty after Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond had what it called

:03:06.:03:08.

So it seems fair to say that relations between David Cameron

:03:09.:03:12.

and eurosceptics in his party aren't exactly cordial.

:03:13.:03:14.

The welfare secretary Iain Duncan Smith, he's one

:03:15.:03:16.

of the cabinet ministers arguing to leave, was asked about it

:03:17.:03:18.

You don't think the Prime Minister is much of a patriot, do you? This

:03:19.:03:31.

is not about personalities. They in campaign's whole strategy seems to

:03:32.:03:37.

be about, it is terrible, it is about saying that we are too small,

:03:38.:03:41.

too inconsequential and we cannot do what we want. I don't know why

:03:42.:03:44.

anybody would want to run a country like this. This country is the

:03:45.:03:48.

greatest honour. I think probably the first time a cabinet minister

:03:49.:03:53.

has been asked if the Prime Minister is a patriot and he does not reply

:03:54.:03:58.

yes. Is Mr Cameron getting the tone and the content of this right? I

:03:59.:04:03.

think he made a big mistake earlier this week when he lashed out at

:04:04.:04:07.

Boris Johnson in the Commons. I think there was a degree of over

:04:08.:04:11.

interpreting those comments, and I understand that there was a fuss

:04:12.:04:15.

about whether or not he had slighted Boris Johnson's personal life with a

:04:16.:04:20.

reference to knowing couples that had divorced. Mr Cameron thought he

:04:21.:04:24.

had Boris in the bag. He was certainly bruised by that. The

:04:25.:04:29.

comment on marriage went over Doris's aired, so there was a bit of

:04:30.:04:36.

over interpreting by people on all sides. -- over progress's aired. But

:04:37.:04:41.

if Cameron is being called to stop these attacks, he is the one who

:04:42.:04:47.

started them. Europe is just another word for division in the Tory Party

:04:48.:04:50.

but it almost seems like the manner and the tone of what the prime

:04:51.:04:55.

ministers saying, he is almost going out of his way to upset those

:04:56.:05:01.

opposed to him. I disagree. I think the grievances in the papers today

:05:02.:05:05.

are spurious. It has not been a blue on blue campaign so far, not a huge

:05:06.:05:09.

amount of animosity and poison so far although it is early days. Do

:05:10.:05:14.

they expect him not to play the economic risk card? Do they expect

:05:15.:05:18.

him to go through the next four mums using the single most devastating

:05:19.:05:22.

line of attack he has against the other side, which is the unknown

:05:23.:05:25.

economic has heard of taking a punt on Brexit? But that argument would

:05:26.:05:31.

be true even if he had brought back the store from Brussels or brought

:05:32.:05:33.

back nothing from Brussels. The economic argument is that this could

:05:34.:05:40.

be a profound shock to the world economy. That is either true or not

:05:41.:05:45.

true, regardless of the settlement. But that is not the given reason for

:05:46.:05:49.

their frustration with him. At the moment they are focusing on the tone

:05:50.:05:53.

and negativity. And you don't feel like they have the right to be

:05:54.:05:59.

aggrieved? No. It would be bizarre Prime Minister to lead a campaign in

:06:00.:06:01.

favour of staying in without deploying his most effective weapon.

:06:02.:06:05.

And what Mr Osborne is doing with this argument is have one very

:06:06.:06:10.

simple, crude argument in the general election, that Labour was

:06:11.:06:13.

not credible, and in this campaign that it is a leap in the dark. He

:06:14.:06:17.

needs to be careful. The idea that the world economy is going to tank

:06:18.:06:22.

because Britain leaves the European Union, that Britain leaving the

:06:23.:06:26.

union is up there with the Chinese fall in growth, it is absurd. What

:06:27.:06:31.

did George Osborne do? Equalled the G20 finance ministers to write that

:06:32.:06:34.

into their conclusions. Yes, it will be a challenge for the British

:06:35.:06:38.

economy if we leave the European Union, but the idea that it is up

:06:39.:06:42.

there as a global risk that will lead to some great world economic

:06:43.:06:45.

depression, I think he needs to be careful. He has to ensure that what

:06:46.:06:49.

he does has credibility and I am not sure that passes the test. What

:06:50.:06:53.

annoys a lot of the Tories is that they are using arguments about

:06:54.:06:56.

staying in which I've always been true, regardless of whether or not

:06:57.:07:01.

the settlement makes any difference. To say that if we came out, there

:07:02.:07:05.

would be a profound economic shock, that is true regardless of the

:07:06.:07:11.

settlement. I think that is what annoys the Eurosceptics. They are

:07:12.:07:14.

using arguments that were true six months ago. And many of the

:07:15.:07:18.

arguments are very thin. David Cameron has written for the

:07:19.:07:22.

Telegraph today saying that he can describe exactly what people will be

:07:23.:07:26.

voting for if they vote to stay in. It is the status quo, it is not very

:07:27.:07:30.

difficult to describe that. It is very frustrating for Eurosceptics

:07:31.:07:35.

that there is this constant spurious claim by the In campaign that they

:07:36.:07:40.

cannot describe what Out looks like. They describe what it looks like

:07:41.:07:45.

everyday. The problem is that it is under article 50 of the Lisbon

:07:46.:07:49.

Treaty that exit people cannot guarantee the deal. They can say it

:07:50.:07:52.

might be this or that but they cannot guarantee it because we are

:07:53.:07:55.

out of the European Council the moment we press the button. You

:07:56.:07:59.

wonder whether either side can guarantee what the country will be

:08:00.:08:00.

like whether we stay in or come out. We have a pretty good idea of who

:08:01.:08:08.

will be fighting on which site. Both the Leave and the Remain camps

:08:09.:08:16.

have their own big figures, and they wasted little time

:08:17.:08:19.

in putting aside old loyalties Let's have a look at some of the big

:08:20.:08:21.

moments of the week. I have known a number of couples

:08:22.:08:25.

who have begun divorce proceedings but I do not know any who have begun

:08:26.:08:28.

divorce proceedings in order This open border does not allow us

:08:29.:08:31.

to check and control people who may come and we have seen what has

:08:32.:08:38.

happened in Paris where they spent ages planning and plotting

:08:39.:08:41.

so who is to say it is not beyond the wit of man that those

:08:42.:08:46.

might already be thinking about it? Today almost 200 of Britain's

:08:47.:08:49.

biggest firms including 36 on the FTSE 100 index published

:08:50.:08:52.

a letter warning that so-called Brexit would put

:08:53.:08:55.

the economy at risk. We have a great opportunity now

:08:56.:09:06.

to strike new deals for Britain to be the hub of new trading

:09:07.:09:11.

arrangements around the world and to have a fantastic new future

:09:12.:09:13.

so that is what I am going for. In my judgment as Chancellor leaving

:09:14.:09:17.

the EU would represent a profound economic shock for our country,

:09:18.:09:20.

for all of us and I am going to do everything I can to

:09:21.:09:23.

prevent that happening. The European Court of Justice

:09:24.:09:26.

interprets the European Union treaties and until this agreement

:09:27.:09:29.

is embodied in treaty change then the European Court of Justice is not

:09:30.:09:31.

bound by this agreement. You saw there a few of

:09:32.:09:37.

the Conservative allies David Cameron has failed to persuade

:09:38.:09:40.

of the case for remaining in the EU, and now I'm joined by another one -

:09:41.:09:44.

the former party leader, Tory peer and leave

:09:45.:09:46.

campaign Michael Howard. Welcome to the programme. Let's

:09:47.:09:55.

start on this idea of a second referendum. You have indicated that

:09:56.:09:58.

a vote to leave could jolt the rest of the EU into giving us a better

:09:59.:10:02.

and bigger and more compounds of deal. That could trigger a second

:10:03.:10:06.

referendum. Mr Cameron says that is fiction and Boris Johnson now says

:10:07.:10:11.

the same. Are you sticking to that? Yes. I cannot guarantee that would

:10:12.:10:17.

happen but it is a possibility. Everybody who wants us to vote

:10:18.:10:22.

Remain is going to say it is for the birds, and I understand that. There

:10:23.:10:29.

want us to vote to remain. Mr Johnson is saying that, too. And I

:10:30.:10:33.

don't agree with him. We have reached the same conclusion by

:10:34.:10:36.

different routes. The European Union has form on this. They have done it

:10:37.:10:39.

before in relation to Ireland and has form on this. They have done it

:10:40.:10:42.

Denmark. The very things that make it certain that we would thrive as

:10:43.:10:48.

an independent country, the fact that we are the fifth biggest

:10:49.:10:51.

economy in the world, the strongest military power in Europe, the fact

:10:52.:10:56.

that we are the second-biggest contributor to the European Union

:10:57.:10:59.

budget, those things would mean that we would be sorely missed if we left

:11:00.:11:02.

and that is why I think the countries in Europe, the European

:11:03.:11:07.

leaders would say that if we voted to leave, let's have some more talks

:11:08.:11:12.

and let's think again. Would they? Brexit, I think, if it happens would

:11:13.:11:17.

happen at a time of what is clearly crisis for the EU, perhaps the worst

:11:18.:11:21.

crisis in its history. If it responded by giving us everything

:11:22.:11:24.

that the Eurosceptics wanted, there could be a rush to the door by other

:11:25.:11:28.

countries. Why would the EU risk that? The very fact they are in a

:11:29.:11:34.

crisis means they need us all the more. I cannot guarantee that they

:11:35.:11:39.

would. It is an unknown. There is a chance of that but if they don't

:11:40.:11:43.

come back, if all we are left with is the current under formed European

:11:44.:11:48.

Union, I think we are better out than in. OK. Turning to the

:11:49.:11:54.

economics. Last week we saw some of Britain's biggest companies,

:11:55.:12:02.

household names, warning against the dangers of leaving the EU for jobs

:12:03.:12:07.

and investment. Why should the British people not listen to them?

:12:08.:12:12.

First of all, they were a minority even of the bosses of the FTSE 100

:12:13.:12:18.

companies. Moore did not sign them signed. Secondly, don't take it from

:12:19.:12:23.

me, take it from someone with real authority, someone like Mervyn King,

:12:24.:12:27.

the former governor of the Bank of England, who pointed out yesterday

:12:28.:12:30.

that we ought to take what these people say with a pinch of salt.

:12:31.:12:33.

Many of them were strong adherence of us joining the euro and predicted

:12:34.:12:38.

economic disaster for us if we did not. But not all of them. How many

:12:39.:12:44.

FTSE 100 chief executives are on your side? I don't know. But many

:12:45.:12:50.

business people are, particularly small business people. And

:12:51.:12:54.

particularly business people who do most of their business with

:12:55.:12:58.

countries outside of the EU and who are very hampered in doing so by the

:12:59.:13:02.

rules to which we are in thrall. The kind of people who signed this

:13:03.:13:05.

letter saying we should stay in, they are also the same kind of

:13:06.:13:08.

people who signed the same kind of letters backing the Tories come

:13:09.:13:13.

election time. If you want us to listen to them, when it suits you,

:13:14.:13:20.

but not when they don't agree with you? They can be right about one

:13:21.:13:25.

thing without being right about another. He wants to pick them up

:13:26.:13:29.

when it suits you and disparage them when it doesn't. Can I make a point

:13:30.:13:33.

about this? I think we are in danger of looking at these issues through

:13:34.:13:36.

the wrong end of the telescope. If we leave, there are some things that

:13:37.:13:44.

I can absolutely guarantee. Number one, we will have our democracy

:13:45.:13:48.

restored, our courts and our Parliament will no longer be

:13:49.:13:50.

subservient to the European Union. Number two, as part of that, we will

:13:51.:13:53.

recover control of our borders and Number two, as part of that, we will

:13:54.:13:58.

we will have control over who comes in and who doesn't. Number three, we

:13:59.:14:01.

will no longer have to contribute billions of pounds a year to the

:14:02.:14:06.

EU's budget. Those are certainties, indisputable. The onus is on those

:14:07.:14:14.

who wish us to remain 2.2 similar indisputable arguments which

:14:15.:14:16.

outweigh those and so far I have not seen them. But does it not worry you

:14:17.:14:24.

that all of our allies in the G20 want us to stay in. Only President

:14:25.:14:30.

Putin among world leaders once asked to leave? Does that not cause you

:14:31.:14:35.

concerned? The British people are the best people to decide what is in

:14:36.:14:43.

our interest. You could also site the Attorney General of the United

:14:44.:14:46.

States, who said that of the European Union was undermining the

:14:47.:14:51.

intelligence sharing that is so crucial in our fight against

:14:52.:14:56.

terrorism and crime. So now, it is the British people who are the best

:14:57.:14:59.

people to decide what is in our interest. The Prime Minister says

:15:00.:15:05.

there are 3 million jobs that depend in some way on our trade in the

:15:06.:15:08.

European Union. He says we would not go training -- we would go on

:15:09.:15:16.

trading with the EU, if we left, but would the trade be at the same

:15:17.:15:19.

level? How many of these jobs would be truly safe? Can you answer that

:15:20.:15:23.

question? They want to continue trading with us and we are the

:15:24.:15:27.

biggest export market for the rest of the European Union. And we run a

:15:28.:15:32.

great deficit on trade with them so it is very much in their interest to

:15:33.:15:38.

continue to trade with us. We could do some jobs, couldn't wake Umax --

:15:39.:15:45.

we could lose. I do not think the Germans would not continue selling

:15:46.:15:49.

as BMWs, or the French wine. If they want to continue to have access to

:15:50.:15:53.

our market, we need to make sure we have access to theirs. It is in our

:15:54.:15:59.

mutual interest. You say that all 3 million jobs are guaranteed? I

:16:00.:16:02.

cannot offer you any guarantees and neither can the banister. The great

:16:03.:16:08.

arts profit of integration as he did very well, when he said that if the

:16:09.:16:14.

British do not want to sign up to further integration in the European

:16:15.:16:17.

Union, we can have a very friendly relationship with them, we can sign

:16:18.:16:19.

up to a free-trade agreement with them and that would be the way

:16:20.:16:21.

forward. Let me show you what the current

:16:22.:16:30.

Home Secretary who is the longest serving Home Secretary says:

:16:31.:16:42.

I have great respect for her, I don't quite know why she says that.

:16:43.:16:50.

I believe that we can continue to have a very good and constructive

:16:51.:16:56.

working relationship with the member states of the EU on security matters

:16:57.:17:02.

if we leave. The reason I say that is simply this, we contribute a

:17:03.:17:06.

great deal to that relationship, our intelligence services are the best

:17:07.:17:10.

in Europe. They want the help we can give them and so there is absolutely

:17:11.:17:15.

no reason whatsoever why we should not continue to have a close

:17:16.:17:19.

relationship with them on these matters on an intergovernmental

:17:20.:17:24.

basis. The declaration of the European Council, which I know you

:17:25.:17:30.

have read as carefully as I have, says in terms, national security is

:17:31.:17:33.

our responsibility of the nation states. One thing we would not have

:17:34.:17:38.

access to is the European arrest warrant. We could come to an

:17:39.:17:42.

agreement on that. Let's say what you said on that:

:17:43.:17:50.

it wouldn't be if we left. It could, because we could easily reach an

:17:51.:17:58.

agreement with the Europeans that the essentials of the European

:17:59.:18:02.

arrest warrant continued in force. Not all my friends on the leading

:18:03.:18:07.

side with that that I think it would be possible to reach such an

:18:08.:18:12.

agreement. No other non-EU member has use of the arrest warrant. No

:18:13.:18:18.

relationship as we are. We don't relationship as we are. We don't

:18:19.:18:25.

know. It was used to bring back one of the failed London bombers from

:18:26.:18:30.

Italy and it came back quickly and the arrest warrant. He is now in

:18:31.:18:36.

jail, how would we do that? That is why I was in favour of it at the

:18:37.:18:41.

time and I think because we offer so much to our European neighbours in

:18:42.:18:44.

terms of the capacity which we bring to these issues they would be keen

:18:45.:18:50.

to continue in that sort of arrangement with us if we left the

:18:51.:18:55.

European Union. Let me show you what Rob Wainwright, the head of Europe

:18:56.:19:15.

all -- Europol said. The head of Europol, British, the longest

:19:16.:19:20.

serving Home Secretary, both think that our security would be more at

:19:21.:19:27.

risk. And the Attorney General of the United States accuses the

:19:28.:19:30.

European Union of undermining the fight against terrorism and I think

:19:31.:19:38.

in all of these issues we need to have some self confidence and self

:19:39.:19:43.

belief. We are a big country, an important country and we have a huge

:19:44.:19:47.

amount to offer in terms of cooperation with our neighbours. It

:19:48.:19:51.

is in the interest to continue to cooperate with us and I have no

:19:52.:19:55.

doubt we could reach perfectly satisfactory arrangements with them

:19:56.:20:00.

if we voted to leave. Finally, Mr Cameron was once your special

:20:01.:20:05.

adviser, you were his mentor and you told his mother one day that he

:20:06.:20:09.

would be Prime Minister, what did he say when you told him you are

:20:10.:20:14.

joining the league side? We had a difficult conversation, I find it

:20:15.:20:17.

difficult to be on the opposite side of the argument to David Cameron. He

:20:18.:20:23.

was very disappointed I had come to this conclusion and I understand and

:20:24.:20:28.

respect that. Michael Howard, thank you for being with

:20:29.:20:32.

So that's the case for leaving put by an elder statesman

:20:33.:20:35.

Let's turn now to an elder statesman of the Labour Party -

:20:36.:20:38.

although he's a fresh-faced one - it's Alan Johnson and he is leading

:20:39.:20:42.

the Labour In for Britain Group, and he's in Hull.

:20:43.:20:44.

Your side of the argument stresses the risks and uncertainties of

:20:45.:20:56.

leaving the EU, do you accept there are risks and uncertainties with

:20:57.:21:03.

staying? No. Not in the sense that Michael Howard was suggesting. I

:21:04.:21:07.

thought what he said was wrong, he said he could guarantee we would not

:21:08.:21:11.

be contributing to the European Union and could guarantee there

:21:12.:21:14.

would not be free movement but he cannot. If we take the Norway option

:21:15.:21:19.

which many of those on the leading site promote then we would indeed be

:21:20.:21:23.

paying them, Norway is the 10th biggest contributor. They have free

:21:24.:21:30.

movement. Why would we have to follow what Norway does? They are a

:21:31.:21:35.

small economy and we are the second largest in Europe? I am just saying

:21:36.:21:39.

that there are other options, the Swiss option once again. Michael

:21:40.:21:44.

cannot guarantee it. We are the fifth biggest economy, we were the

:21:45.:21:51.

fourth when we were in government, but people say that only leaving

:21:52.:21:54.

side but they do not equate it at all with 41 years of membership of

:21:55.:21:59.

the EU. Part of that economic strength, I am in Hull where there

:22:00.:22:07.

is the biggest investment any where in the world by Siemens, billions of

:22:08.:22:15.

pounds and 1000 jobs. They are building wind turbines for offshore

:22:16.:22:21.

Britain. It was fierce competition, if you take... They are building

:22:22.:22:30.

stuff Britain, why would they not do it here? If you take Britain outside

:22:31.:22:35.

the EU you have all kinds of uncertainties and all kinds of

:22:36.:22:42.

possible barriers. The Society of motor manufacturers point out that

:22:43.:22:46.

whilst sales to China and Russia have declined their sales to Europe

:22:47.:22:49.

are up by 10% because we don't pay any tariffs to export into Europe.

:22:50.:22:58.

The other point I wanted to mention was that Michael was part of a

:22:59.:23:01.

government which opted out of something called the social chapter,

:23:02.:23:06.

basic protection for workers. In this huge market, the biggest

:23:07.:23:11.

commercial market, bigger than China and America, there are protections

:23:12.:23:15.

for workers. Michael opted out of those and I believe that he and many

:23:16.:23:20.

others think that is good to not have those protections. We opted

:23:21.:23:25.

back in. For us those protections for workers, to avoid this country

:23:26.:23:29.

becoming a race to the bottom, anything goes kind of free-market

:23:30.:23:36.

experiment, are very important. Hold on, why couldn't the British

:23:37.:23:40.

government, why wouldn't a British government outside the EU replicate

:23:41.:23:43.

these rights if it was so minded, what would stop us from doing that

:23:44.:23:49.

if the government got the democratic will of the British people? The

:23:50.:23:53.

first point is as I have explained that a British government chose not

:23:54.:23:57.

to do that. That was Alex Goode British government. The British

:23:58.:24:01.

government that we were part of opted into those arrangements. There

:24:02.:24:07.

is nothing to suggest in the history of Conservative government that if

:24:08.:24:10.

we left the EU that they would opt into all this. That would be a

:24:11.:24:15.

matter for the British people to choose if they wanted that

:24:16.:24:19.

government. If we let the EU at the next election Labour would promise

:24:20.:24:25.

four weeks paid leave, rights for workers, paid maternity at the next

:24:26.:24:28.

election and if that is what the British people want they will vote

:24:29.:24:33.

for you? The people who want us to leave, the argument I am making, is

:24:34.:24:37.

that the people who want us to leave consider all of that to be red tape.

:24:38.:24:43.

They consider all of that to be bureaucracy. We believe in that kind

:24:44.:24:47.

of market that there has to be protection for consumers, for the

:24:48.:24:51.

environment and for workers. That is an important part of what Europe

:24:52.:24:58.

gives us. Non-EU countries, Norway, Australia, Canada, Iceland, they all

:24:59.:25:02.

score highly even on the trade unionist global workers rights

:25:03.:25:07.

index. Why wouldn't an independent UK, if voters were so minded to do

:25:08.:25:11.

so and I don't see any mainstream politician saying they would want to

:25:12.:25:13.

take away four weeks paid leave, why politician saying they would want to

:25:14.:25:21.

does it need Europe to do it? That's a very good question. In this

:25:22.:25:30.

country alone, it is a political consensus in countries like Norway

:25:31.:25:34.

and Sweden that there should be decent basic rights for workers. In

:25:35.:25:37.

this country it is an election issue. Why shouldn't it be an

:25:38.:25:49.

election issue? I believe if you are trading into this huge market and

:25:50.:25:53.

have got all those opportunities to trade then one aspect of that must

:25:54.:25:56.

be that you don't undercut each other on the basis of terms and

:25:57.:26:02.

conditions. I believe it's an essential part of being in Europe

:26:03.:26:05.

and that is why it is an important part of our campaign to maintain

:26:06.:26:11.

those rights and protections. Moving on to immigration, people are

:26:12.:26:14.

concerned about the scale of it, is there anything in the settlement of

:26:15.:26:17.

David Cameron that'll make a material difference to immigration

:26:18.:26:22.

from the EU? Yes there is, it is very underrated nice to. Two points

:26:23.:26:30.

which were negotiated by Theresa May that were not in the package that we

:26:31.:26:35.

saw in the Donald Tusk exchange were very important. First of all

:26:36.:26:39.

tackling sham marriages and secondly to say that people coming into this

:26:40.:26:43.

country who we suspect might be engaged in the future in activities

:26:44.:26:49.

we would find criminal or perhaps terrorism, that we can stop them

:26:50.:26:53.

coming in. That is important, at the moment it is based on what we know,

:26:54.:26:59.

not on what we predict. Sham marriages with their largely to the

:27:00.:27:03.

subcontinent and is very little to do with Europe. You asked me for two

:27:04.:27:08.

things... I don't know what difference it would make to the

:27:09.:27:14.

numbers, it is about 100 is to 5000 per year net migration coming to

:27:15.:27:17.

this country and it will continue at that level if we stay in want it?

:27:18.:27:28.

There is nothing we can do about net EU migration at that level.

:27:29.:27:33.

Absolutely. I have said that before. It was David Cameron's package. In

:27:34.:27:39.

fairness of people making contributions before taking

:27:40.:27:41.

working-class tax credits but I never thought this was a draw for

:27:42.:27:46.

people to come -- taking working tax credits. We can do something to stop

:27:47.:27:52.

the expectation and we don't need the rest of Europe to do that, I

:27:53.:27:58.

think David Cameron was right, you are right about free movement within

:27:59.:28:02.

the European Union but people are worried about movement coming from

:28:03.:28:06.

outside the European Union and outside the European Union ourselves

:28:07.:28:10.

I think we would be weaker. Not just because we'll would the protection

:28:11.:28:15.

of the Dublin accord -- not just because we will lose. The most

:28:16.:28:20.

honourable point is Calais to Dover and that operation of the Border

:28:21.:28:25.

Force moving to Calais, the mayor comes over and says teacher border

:28:26.:28:32.

backed every couple of months. That is between France and Britain, it is

:28:33.:28:36.

nothing to do with the European Union. This is the point and I think

:28:37.:28:41.

this is what Michael missed, if we wrench ourselves away from the

:28:42.:28:48.

European Union after 41 years of membership, does anyone think there

:28:49.:28:52.

will be huge goodwill out there for Britain? Here is another point about

:28:53.:28:59.

French politics, the French presidential right wing campaigns

:29:00.:29:03.

who might well win next year are saying they will get rid of it even

:29:04.:29:08.

if we stay in the European Union. There you are. So what is the point?

:29:09.:29:15.

Nothing to do with the EU. I don't think anybody doubt that if we left

:29:16.:29:21.

the EU it would seriously bring into jeopardy that arrangement and that

:29:22.:29:26.

is the most vulnerable entry point. Jeremy Corbyn believes we should not

:29:27.:29:31.

look upon immigration as a problem. Jeremy Corbyn believes we should not

:29:32.:29:36.

Do you agree in the context of this debate about Europe? Only in the

:29:37.:29:44.

sense that it is not the driving force, people don't come here, they

:29:45.:29:48.

come here to work by and large, they don't come here to claim benefits.

:29:49.:29:55.

In that respect I do. I think as Jeremy accepts the exploitation

:29:56.:29:58.

which comes with it needs to be addressed. So to be clear the scale

:29:59.:30:06.

of immigration if we stay in the EU does not change. It might do. I will

:30:07.:30:10.

tell you why it might do, I was Home Secretary before Theresa May, the

:30:11.:30:18.

net migration figure was around 165,000, very low. Because we had

:30:19.:30:22.

just gone through the collapse of Liman brothers and the economy was

:30:23.:30:26.

doing badly. If we come out of the EU and are in such a state as far as

:30:27.:30:32.

our economy is concerned it might stop people wanting to come here.

:30:33.:30:37.

OK, you said we have the best lyrics, meaning your side, but we

:30:38.:30:41.

are still struggling to put them to music, why can't you find the right

:30:42.:30:48.

chin? What I meant by that is they have simplistic let's regain the

:30:49.:30:54.

borders and regain our sovereign three and it's quite a complex

:30:55.:31:00.

argument to say actually we have got the best of both worlds. Yes we have

:31:01.:31:04.

some sovereign tree into Europe but that gives us influence over other

:31:05.:31:11.

member states and gives us a louder voice and a more powerful voice in

:31:12.:31:17.

the rest of the world. We will give you that, you love your music so we

:31:18.:31:24.

will give you time to find a tune until we meet again. Alan Johnson,

:31:25.:31:26.

thank you. Let's turn now to the bullying

:31:27.:31:30.

allegations surrounding the death of young Conservative

:31:31.:31:32.

activist Elliott Johnson. An inquest is due to open this week

:31:33.:31:34.

after the 21-year-old was found dead It's thought he took his own life

:31:35.:31:37.

weeks after raising allegations about the way he was being treated

:31:38.:31:41.

in the Conservatives' youth wing. He left behind a suicide note naming

:31:42.:31:44.

two other activists. Today, one of them, a man

:31:45.:31:51.

called Andre Walker, speaks out about his relationship

:31:52.:31:57.

with Elliott Johnson and the bullying allegations

:31:58.:31:59.

for the first time. For nearly six months

:32:00.:32:00.

a grieving family, friends, colleagues and the media have been

:32:01.:32:10.

trying to fathom why a young conservative activist,

:32:11.:32:12.

21-year-old Elliot Johnson, lay down on a railway line

:32:13.:32:13.

and took his own life. The student vote

:32:14.:32:16.

is really important. Just months before, he had been

:32:17.:32:19.

an enthusiastic volunteer for Road We are going to be deciding

:32:20.:32:22.

the general election. This was the brainchild of a former

:32:23.:32:25.

Conservative candidate, Mark Clarke, that would bus young

:32:26.:32:29.

conservatives around the country to campaign on doorsteps

:32:30.:32:32.

during the 2015 general election. Are you going to help change

:32:33.:32:36.

the future of our country? Since the death of Elliott,

:32:37.:32:56.

lurid headlines have reported complaints

:32:57.:32:58.

being made against Mr Clarke of bullying, sexual impropriety

:32:59.:32:59.

and blackmail in relation All of which Mr Clarke

:33:00.:33:02.

vigorously denies. Accusations of a Conservative

:33:03.:33:05.

cover-up have led to the resignation of former party co-chairman

:33:06.:33:08.

Grant Shapps, pressure on the current chairman

:33:09.:33:09.

Lord Feldman, Mr Clarke banned from the party for life,

:33:10.:33:12.

and an internal party investigation underway already widely criticised

:33:13.:33:15.

by the Johnson family. Elliott left a note to be read

:33:16.:33:19.

after his death directly accusing Mr Clarke of bullying him

:33:20.:33:22.

and another person, The note was not all that Elliott

:33:23.:33:24.

left, there was also a secret recording of a night at a pub

:33:25.:33:33.

with all three of them in which Andre Walker appears

:33:34.:33:37.

aggressive and threatening over an official complaint Elliott

:33:38.:33:40.

was going to make about Mr Clarke. In the six months which have

:33:41.:34:01.

followed, Andre Walker has been portrayed in the media

:34:02.:34:07.

as Mr Clarke's henchmen, ready to strongarm those

:34:08.:34:09.

who stood in his way. Now in his first interview Mr Walker

:34:10.:34:20.

gives his side of events nature of his friendship

:34:21.:34:23.

with Elliot Johnson. The Andre Walker that the public has

:34:24.:34:26.

seen so far in relation to this story, is that an Andre

:34:27.:34:29.

Walker you recognise? If I take you back to the day

:34:30.:34:31.

that the covert recording took place, Elliott asked me to come

:34:32.:34:35.

with him to meet with Mark Clarke which was a meeting that he wanted

:34:36.:34:38.

to discuss the problems they had. I met Elliott beforehand and we went

:34:39.:34:41.

to the pub together and met Mark. What you hear is me getting

:34:42.:34:45.

frustrated partway through What you don't hear,

:34:46.:34:47.

what wasn't released to most of the media was at the end Elliott

:34:48.:34:51.

inviting me back to his place because I had missed the last train

:34:52.:34:54.

and us leaving the pub together. If you look at that secret

:34:55.:34:59.

recording, it sounds like you are some kind of hatchet

:35:00.:35:01.

man for Mark Clarke. I think everyone who is fat

:35:02.:35:07.

and from the North of England and involved in politics gets

:35:08.:35:14.

accused of being a bruiser and it is something I never took

:35:15.:35:16.

particularly seriously, I don't recognise the criticism

:35:17.:35:19.

and I think the media has called almost everyone I have ever met

:35:20.:35:24.

in politics and who are these people that I bullied

:35:25.:35:27.

or threatened or harangued? Nobody has come forward,

:35:28.:35:29.

in fact there is plenty of evidence that I didn't do any

:35:30.:35:31.

of those things. What was the nature

:35:32.:35:33.

of the relationship So, Mark Clarke introduced me

:35:34.:35:35.

to Elliott because we both had We hit it off straightaway

:35:36.:35:39.

and the relationship started It lasted until the day he died,

:35:40.:35:42.

as far as I was concerned. The reason I have been coy

:35:43.:35:50.

about that is I know that saying I'm very sorry about that

:35:51.:35:53.

and it is not my intention to go out We have got to discuss this issue,

:35:54.:35:58.

we have to discuss the issue of homophobia and why people,

:35:59.:36:03.

even as close to him as me were not told about the mental

:36:04.:36:06.

health problems. This is a reference

:36:07.:36:07.

to a British Transport Police report prepared ahead of this weeks

:36:08.:36:10.

inquest seen by Mr Walker. The Daily Mail has reported that it

:36:11.:36:19.

suggests: But also that Elliot

:36:20.:36:29.

Johnson had made previous health issues relating

:36:30.:36:31.

to his being accepted as gay. Speaking to the BBC in response

:36:32.:36:37.

to the story, his father denies It is not relevant, Elliott

:36:38.:36:40.

took his life because he had been bullied and picked on generally

:36:41.:36:49.

by certain persons and let down by other organisations around

:36:50.:36:53.

the Conservative Party. He was treated badly,

:36:54.:36:55.

that is why he took his life. He was treated appallingly by people

:36:56.:37:01.

and organisations and we want to make sure that he receives

:37:02.:37:10.

justice for what happened to him. Many of Andre Walker's old friends

:37:11.:37:12.

have blamed him and shunned him. He says that has prevented him

:37:13.:37:15.

from being able to grieve. I was not able to go

:37:16.:37:18.

to the funeral service. Because of the things

:37:19.:37:20.

which were said about me. That was very hurtful

:37:21.:37:22.

because I would have liked Similarly I don't know where

:37:23.:37:25.

Elliott's final resting place is, I would like to visit it,

:37:26.:37:28.

whether that is going to be possible The one memorial service I was able

:37:29.:37:31.

to go to somebody screamed at me and I was effectively thrown out

:37:32.:37:38.

which has just made it impossible for me to pay my respects in the way

:37:39.:37:42.

that I feel I ought to. How would you describe Elliott

:37:43.:37:45.

as a person? He was great fun, we used to go out

:37:46.:37:48.

and have a real laugh and I think that this sort of sad life

:37:49.:37:53.

which people have characterised him as having in London where it was all

:37:54.:37:56.

very depressing and he didn't have many friends and people

:37:57.:38:06.

were bullying him on a day-to-day basis, to my mind is surely not him

:38:07.:38:09.

at all and I think it is sad that It's just gone 11.35am,

:38:10.:38:13.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:38:14.:38:16.

in Scotland who leave us now It's just gone 11:35pm.

:38:17.:38:58.

You're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:38:59.:38:59.

in Scotland, who leave us now Good morning and welcome

:39:00.:39:02.

to Sunday Politics Scotland. As anti-Trident protesters rallied

:39:03.:39:10.

in London yesterday, the GMB union issued a challenge

:39:11.:39:13.

to the Labour leadership over jobs. We'll speak to Labour MSP

:39:14.:39:16.

Neil Findlay and the union's The Liberal Democrats claim

:39:17.:39:34.

the party has punched We'll watch their leader

:39:35.:39:36.

Willie Rennie float like a butterfly Professor Tom Devine was a prominent

:39:37.:39:40.

Yes supporter during the referendum. We'll ask him if he's

:39:41.:39:42.

changed his mind. When the Labour party elected

:39:43.:39:48.

Jeremy Corbyn as its leader last September, you might have been

:39:49.:39:50.

forgiven for thinking the big unions But on Thursday the GMB issued

:39:51.:39:53.

a direct challenge to the Labour leader over the renewal of Trident,

:39:54.:39:57.

accusing him of being irresponsible to talk about scrapping the nuclear

:39:58.:40:00.

missile system without addressing the implications for

:40:01.:40:02.

jobs and communities. The union, which represents

:40:03.:40:04.

civilian defence workers, Yesterday, Mr Corbyn addressed

:40:05.:40:06.

an anti-Trident protest The union, which represents

:40:07.:40:09.

civilian defence workers, Yesterday, Mr Corbyn addressed

:40:10.:40:10.

an anti-Trident protest in central London, along

:40:11.:40:14.

with the First Minister, The Scottish Labour Party has also

:40:15.:40:30.

rejected the renewal of Trident. Here is Neil Findlay speaking at

:40:31.:40:35.

that time. I have opposed nuclear weapons all my life, I am a member

:40:36.:40:40.

of CND and make the edition is clear. I want to see small

:40:41.:40:47.

businesses around Faslane oppose Trident, I want nationalists,

:40:48.:40:53.

liberals, Greens and I even want Tories to join the campaign against

:40:54.:40:59.

Trident. I spoke to Neil Findlay in Grangemouth and began by asking if

:41:00.:41:02.

it was right that the Labour feeder spoke at that anti-Trident rally.

:41:03.:41:10.

Jeremy has had a long-standing queue on nuclear weapons since his first

:41:11.:41:16.

logical thought, he has been very involved in the peace movement and

:41:17.:41:18.

the campaign for nuclear disarmament. You argue against

:41:19.:41:33.

Labour Party policy? Jeremy was consistent in putting across his

:41:34.:41:37.

view, a QC has held for decades and you would be the first person to

:41:38.:41:41.

criticise him had he not spoken out on an issue that he has campaigned

:41:42.:41:46.

so passionately about over the years. A consistent line he has

:41:47.:41:53.

taken but the party is having a big debate over the future of the

:41:54.:41:57.

nuclear weapon system and many other people will express their views in

:41:58.:42:01.

that debate, it is healthy and democratic, but other parties who do

:42:02.:42:07.

not have healthy debate, they have a line given by the top and everybody

:42:08.:42:13.

is supposed to fall into line. Is it OK for the deputy leader, Tom

:42:14.:42:18.

Watson, to suggest he will back David Cameron and vote for the

:42:19.:42:22.

renewal of Trident no matter what the Labour review decides? Lets see

:42:23.:42:28.

what the review does decide and not pre-empt what that review is and

:42:29.:42:33.

what comes out of that review. We should all indicate with that

:42:34.:42:38.

debate, we encourage people to put across their Duke and I look forward

:42:39.:42:42.

to that debate going on over the next while until we come up with a

:42:43.:42:49.

position. That does not answer my question, you as a party have to

:42:50.:42:54.

accept it is up to conscience which way we vote on nuclear weapons.

:42:55.:42:58.

There is no way when you have your leader standing in a rally with

:42:59.:43:04.

Nicola Sturgeon campaigning against Labour policy, should Labour decided

:43:05.:43:08.

to be against nuclear weapons, you cannot argue individual members

:43:09.:43:15.

should not vote for them. Let's see what comes out under review. This is

:43:16.:43:22.

not about that, I am suggesting there is no way Labour can't demand

:43:23.:43:27.

its own MPs vote in line with party policy no matter what the outcome of

:43:28.:43:33.

your review. For some people that will be a conscience issue, it

:43:34.:43:39.

always has been a conscience issue for some people and they may take

:43:40.:43:43.

that decision but the party is in the process of having a review, it

:43:44.:43:48.

will report and we will move forward on that basis. The Scottish

:43:49.:43:52.

Secretary of the GMB said people like you are, and I quote,

:43:53.:44:00.

professional poseurs and armchair generals playing their student

:44:01.:44:03.

politics as they sip lactase in Hollywood and Islington. I don't

:44:04.:44:09.

know what the last eight copies are alike in Grangemouth but you get the

:44:10.:44:17.

point. -- lactase. I am not a big fan of those but Gary Smith is

:44:18.:44:22.

entitled to defend members' positions. This is a serious debate

:44:23.:44:30.

that is taking place, he is entitled to put across his views in that and

:44:31.:44:38.

I welcome that but I think it is an unfortunate choice of language. Many

:44:39.:44:43.

people involved in this debate have had decades of commitment to the

:44:44.:44:48.

trade union movement and the greatest advocates of trade unionism

:44:49.:44:52.

and that type of language is unhelpful. He would say, my language

:44:53.:45:00.

may or may not be unhelpful, that is academic, you are threatening my

:45:01.:45:06.

members' jobs. The jobs issue is critical in this debate and I said

:45:07.:45:12.

so when I spoke at the Labour Party conference, the jobs issue is the

:45:13.:45:16.

biggest issue we have to wrestle with because I am not in the

:45:17.:45:20.

business of putting any one out at work, so we have to look at how we

:45:21.:45:24.

maintain those skills and those jobs, highly skilled people in the

:45:25.:45:29.

defence sector. You have no grounds to do that. Wait, how we keep them

:45:30.:45:35.

in work and provide them with a future is a critical element. You

:45:36.:45:43.

have no credible plan to do that. If we look at what happened in other

:45:44.:45:47.

places, for example the US went naval bases closed there was a

:45:48.:45:53.

diversification process that front on further employment and the ST UC

:45:54.:46:00.

and others have advised a similar process. They would not be

:46:01.:46:04.

advocating that type of process to put Gary Smith and the GMB members

:46:05.:46:10.

to work, that is not the business we are in. On Europe, have you decided

:46:11.:46:17.

which side you were on in the referendum? I am watching the debate

:46:18.:46:23.

carefully. I've personally, since I came into politics have been

:46:24.:46:28.

chronicled of the anti-democratic way the EU operates but at this

:46:29.:46:33.

stage I have not made up my mind how to vote in the referendum, but I

:46:34.:46:39.

would find it impossible to campaign alongside some of the characters who

:46:40.:46:45.

are joining forces in this referendum, Nigel Farage and Boris

:46:46.:46:48.

Johnson and people like that, I would find that impossible, and I

:46:49.:46:54.

would be uncomfortable campaigning alongside David Cameron, so why do

:46:55.:46:59.

not see myself taking an active role on either side of the campaign but I

:47:00.:47:04.

will make my decision on how I vote nearer the time. But you must have

:47:05.:47:07.

made up your mind. It is not as if nearer the time. But you must have

:47:08.:47:13.

it is a sudden issue, we have been in the EU since 1973. We have, all

:47:14.:47:19.

my life we have been in it but there are issues and in relation to what

:47:20.:47:28.

Cameron has negotiated, some of which is appalling, but bigger

:47:29.:47:34.

issues at stake about democracy, accountability and hope the EU

:47:35.:47:37.

operates and I will take my time to make up my mind. We had Alan, sorry,

:47:38.:47:50.

John Mills from Labour Leave on this programme saying he would organise a

:47:51.:47:53.

Labour campaign to leave the EU, what if he asks you to join in? I

:47:54.:48:02.

will listen to all sides in the debate but I do not think I will be

:48:03.:48:10.

taking a front for centre role. I have more local issues to deal with,

:48:11.:48:15.

the small matter of a Scottish election and that is concentrating

:48:16.:48:19.

my mind and all my energies are being put into working hard in the

:48:20.:48:25.

constituency where I am standing and that will be my focus.

:48:26.:48:28.

Listening to that was Gary Smith, who is the Scottish organiser

:48:29.:48:31.

You stand accused of unfortunate use of language. How would you recover

:48:32.:48:44.

from that? This debate over Trident is an indulgent debate played by

:48:45.:48:48.

people who were happy doing student politics. This position was hatched

:48:49.:48:56.

in Islington and Holyrood and the whole Scottish political elite is in

:48:57.:49:01.

direct confrontation with the organised working class. I would

:49:02.:49:06.

rather see Labour politicians like Neil Findlay and Jeremy Corbyn

:49:07.:49:12.

attacking Nicola Sturgeon and her government's record, thousands of

:49:13.:49:16.

jobs being cut, services to the first Scots cut, unemployment

:49:17.:49:21.

rising, no response to what is happening in oil and gas, no

:49:22.:49:26.

opportunities for young people, these are the issues we should be

:49:27.:49:29.

talking about rather than something they have no control over like

:49:30.:49:35.

Trident. But I am not sure it is fair to call someone like Neil

:49:36.:49:40.

Findlay a student politician. This is student politics, an indulgent

:49:41.:49:46.

debate, these are the logical poseurs who rather than talk about

:49:47.:49:51.

real issues and real concerns of working class communities are

:49:52.:49:55.

happier on marches threatening to sack workers in Scotland, and the

:49:56.:49:59.

workers who will go if Trident wasn't renewed or not just at the

:50:00.:50:03.

low workload, it would be at BAE Systems. I had a member marching

:50:04.:50:10.

when Rosyth was privatised by Dutch, Neil Findlay was on those marches

:50:11.:50:15.

and I remember when John major tried to close it and now Labour

:50:16.:50:21.

politicians, rather than challenging the nationalist record on jobs, are

:50:22.:50:26.

marching to have these places closed because the workers on the Upper

:50:27.:50:31.

Clyde will be redeployed to Baron Furnace and hundreds of them are

:50:32.:50:35.

already there because they have big gaps in the work programme. This is

:50:36.:50:38.

an infantile debate. There is something very odd going on

:50:39.:50:49.

here because the readers wanted a left-wing Labour Party and now they

:50:50.:50:54.

have got it they are accused of going on to student politicians. 1%

:50:55.:51:00.

of the eligible trade union vote went to Jeremy Corbyn so this was

:51:01.:51:04.

never an argument, it is not for me to comment on his leadership as an

:51:05.:51:09.

entirety but this was never a working class movement, let's not

:51:10.:51:13.

kid ourselves on. What we have now is in effect a middle-class elite or

:51:14.:51:18.

that Holyrood and Islington going head-to-head with organised working

:51:19.:51:20.

class because they are trying to head-to-head with organised working

:51:21.:51:23.

throw our members out of jobs at the upper Clyde, precise and the lower

:51:24.:51:29.

Clyde. If they do decide that the Labour Party to be against Trident

:51:30.:51:35.

free new bull it seems possible even likely, is there anything you can do

:51:36.:51:41.

about it? What is awful is we have the leader of the Labour Party

:51:42.:51:44.

speaking against his own party policy. It is an inconvenient truth

:51:45.:51:48.

for a meal and others that we have party policy. If they change the

:51:49.:51:53.

Wallasey it will make no difference. What we have said through this whole

:51:54.:51:57.

debate is Trident renewal is going ahead. It is happening, creating

:51:58.:52:02.

jobs at the lower Clyde, we have hundreds of people already working

:52:03.:52:06.

on the Spotlight side, it is good news for jobs on the Opera Clyde, it

:52:07.:52:11.

will not make any change whatsoever and that is why Labour should be

:52:12.:52:15.

concentrating on the issues of the day, John Swinney 's cuts budget.

:52:16.:52:20.

Let me say this, Nicola Sturgeon says this will be able he can be

:52:21.:52:23.

issued during the Scottish election while that is diversely politics and

:52:24.:52:30.

I will be writing to Sturgeon tomorrow about workers from her own

:52:31.:52:36.

constituency and down at Faslane and Coulport as well. If Labour were

:52:37.:52:41.

down the coast as Jeremy Corbyn Monts, with that affect the union

:52:42.:52:46.

support for the Labour Party? It would not make a difference in terms

:52:47.:52:49.

of jobs which is the crucial issue for us. The union then of course

:52:50.:52:53.

would take a decision on our relationship with the party but I

:52:54.:53:01.

keep say this. You would not drop your readership of the Labour Party?

:53:02.:53:03.

keep say this. You would not drop That would be an issue of debate.

:53:04.:53:07.

Neal Finlay and others should be talking about the job crisis in

:53:08.:53:13.

Scotland, the lack of opportunity for working people. You have heard

:53:14.:53:17.

what he had to say about finding alternative jobs, what do you think

:53:18.:53:20.

about that? They have not come alternative jobs, what do you think

:53:21.:53:24.

with credible alternative employment and we have lost faith in demolition

:53:25.:53:28.

and these politicians are now expecting us to trust them to find

:53:29.:53:34.

alternative work? The only proposals that are an alternative to Trident

:53:35.:53:38.

has come from Corbin saying we should build it without missiles and

:53:39.:53:46.

Livingston saying let's invest the money instead in the arts. What are

:53:47.:53:53.

they going to do? Get the ship rights to the waiters? Give them a

:53:54.:53:57.

box of Koreans and a colouring in book? How are they going to feed

:53:58.:54:01.

their families and keep a roof over their head? -- crayons. Obviously we

:54:02.:54:11.

don't like to see people lose their jobs but weapons of mass disruption

:54:12.:54:15.

is a bigger issue than that. It is not about whether the people who

:54:16.:54:18.

make them more uninvolved with them lose their jobs but it is a much

:54:19.:54:23.

bigger issue. You can have your principles but could also have

:54:24.:54:25.

consequences and those against the Trident renewal programme either in

:54:26.:54:30.

direct conflict with workers and working communities in Scotland.

:54:31.:54:35.

Thank you, we will have to leave it there.

:54:36.:54:37.

There was a time when the Liberal Democrats were big

:54:38.:54:39.

The party has served in government at Westminster and Holyrood,

:54:40.:54:43.

but more recently has suffered heavy losses at the hands

:54:44.:54:45.

They used their spring conference in Edinburgh this weekend to attempt

:54:46.:54:49.

to sell their message of fairness to the voters.

:54:50.:54:51.

But with just a few months until the Scottish election,

:54:52.:54:53.

will the public buy it, or are the Lib Dems still

:54:54.:54:56.

Our reporter Andrew Black went to find out.

:54:57.:55:16.

Politics, it's a brutal old game and that's a lesson the Lib Dems have

:55:17.:55:23.

had to learn the lad -- hard way. Recently it seems the Scottish Lib

:55:24.:55:29.

Dems haven't even fully reflect on public opinion. That hasn't always

:55:30.:55:35.

been the case. After all, this was a party which used to be in power,

:55:36.:55:40.

both in Holyrood and Westminster, it has now been reduced to one Scottish

:55:41.:55:48.

MP and a handful of MSPs. Now the Lib Dems have done what every

:55:49.:55:52.

political party does when it's on the ropes, launched a fightback. At

:55:53.:56:00.

times signs of this fightback were always evident. That said, Lib Dem

:56:01.:56:09.

leader, Willie Rennie, said his party, despite small numbers, has

:56:10.:56:11.

helped the Scottish Government to account on key issues like policing.

:56:12.:56:17.

That's the kind of record, he says, will stand the Lib Dem is in good

:56:18.:56:20.

stead ahead of the Scottish election. We can be the best again

:56:21.:56:27.

if we are bold, bright, liberal and green. If you want change, one thing

:56:28.:56:32.

is to be better, if you want to get Scotland's fit for the future, if

:56:33.:56:36.

you want Scotland to be the best again, that the Liberal Democrats.

:56:37.:56:44.

That was a message which seemed to go down well with Lib Dem

:56:45.:56:50.

supporters. Hard work to do. A lot of brothers and the a lot of teeth

:56:51.:56:54.

in Willie Rennie, he is very, very popular. This is the first time the

:56:55.:57:02.

Lib Dems have suffered since me but I think it is important to remember

:57:03.:57:04.

that we can always come back. I I think it is important to remember

:57:05.:57:09.

couldn't be anything else. I am liberal to my back on. So, how does

:57:10.:57:17.

Willie Rennie reverses fortunes? One of his big ideas is to add a penny

:57:18.:57:24.

to income tax, raising money to boost education. Holyrood is one

:57:25.:57:31.

thing but Lib Dems in Scotland also have a role to play in aiding the

:57:32.:57:38.

party revival across the UK. You deserve victory but you will not get

:57:39.:57:43.

it by accident, only by fighting with passion, belief, discipline and

:57:44.:57:50.

energy. Get out there, get on the doorsteps, rain, wind, maybe even

:57:51.:57:55.

shine, victory is there to be one, Scotland meet you to win. So, can

:57:56.:58:02.

the Scottish Liberal Democrats delivers some glitz to a brand once

:58:03.:58:08.

more popular than it is now? All that, of course, is up to the

:58:09.:58:10.

supporters. Willie Rennie joins me now

:58:11.:58:12.

from our Edinburgh studio. Willie Rennie, we will talk about

:58:13.:58:21.

the election any moment but I wanted to ask, the Lib Dems were critical

:58:22.:58:25.

of the fiscal framework deal done this week, can you explain exactly

:58:26.:58:31.

why? The real issue is that whilst there is a cash agreement for the

:58:32.:58:35.

next five years we do not know what the arrangement is going to be after

:58:36.:58:39.

that. The conditions might not be as favourable for Scotland at that

:58:40.:58:46.

time. While she's also, in Nicola Sturgeon, has embedded the Treasury

:58:47.:58:49.

model which she is very critical of fiscal part of the fiscal framework,

:58:50.:58:54.

it is very difficult to get something out of a framework when it

:58:55.:58:56.

has already been established in the framework that actually to have an

:58:57.:59:02.

open blank sheet which we would have advocated. We would have preferred

:59:03.:59:06.

to have the Treasury model out of the fiscal framework now rather than

:59:07.:59:08.

having all the arguments again in five years' time. You are worried

:59:09.:59:14.

she has sold the past as it were? Yes, I don't think it sets itself up

:59:15.:59:20.

well for a debate in five years' time over this. It is good she

:59:21.:59:24.

managed to get the cash agreement which was helpful for Scotland but

:59:25.:59:28.

it is just this big argument in five years' time which I don't think

:59:29.:59:34.

helps Scotland. You'd ideas for the election, pupil premium, you want to

:59:35.:59:37.

have one in Scotland and it was a Lib Dem policy in England. Is there

:59:38.:59:42.

any hard evidence it has made a blind bit of difference? It has. The

:59:43.:59:46.

evidence has shown that the attainment gap has closed by five

:59:47.:59:52.

centage points in just reuse. That is as a result of direct financial

:59:53.:59:57.

support for extra tuition, on work support. The inspectors have shown

:59:58.:00:03.

it's made a difference. Particularly in primary school. The evidence for

:00:04.:00:07.

secondary is not as strong but for primary school it is strong. Can I

:00:08.:00:13.

just read from a report from the National Audit Office in last year

:00:14.:00:16.

it says the pupil premium has yet to have any identifiable effect and I

:00:17.:00:19.

it says the pupil premium has yet to quote, since the attainment gap has

:00:20.:00:21.

it says the pupil premium has yet to narrowed since 2011 it remains wide

:00:22.:00:25.

and at this stage the significance of the improvements remains unclear.

:00:26.:00:29.

He said it also had considerable potential to make a big impact.

:00:30.:00:33.

Which is not the same thing is actually having had an effect. The

:00:34.:00:38.

closure of the attainment gap is quite clear, others have identified

:00:39.:00:44.

it has closed the attainment gap I providing direct support for

:00:45.:00:47.

children who need extra help at school. Let me put you what the

:00:48.:00:56.

dangers C. EU guv call last year found that less than half of

:00:57.:01:01.

teachers. The pupil premium help disadvantaged children. A

:01:02.:01:06.

considerable number thought it did help disadvantaged children is the

:01:07.:01:09.

opposite side of that too so I think it is pretty clear to making a big

:01:10.:01:13.

difference. Another point and you would have to concede that by some

:01:14.:01:17.

measures, particularly on A-levels, the evidence is that the attainment

:01:18.:01:21.

gap in England has actually increased over the past few years. I

:01:22.:01:24.

except by wider measures it has closed slightly but by other

:01:25.:01:32.

measures it has increased. I have already said the difference in

:01:33.:01:34.

secondary is not the same of them primary. We have started this

:01:35.:01:38.

programme in the last four years so we have yet to see the full benefit

:01:39.:01:41.

of investing in primary school and in later years. It is at least

:01:42.:01:48.

unbeatable? It is debatable but the evidence from a number of people has

:01:49.:01:53.

shown that it has been a significant difference closing the attainment

:01:54.:01:59.

gap in primary schools. That will feed through to the secondary

:02:00.:02:02.

schools and make a big difference in later years. The problem is that if

:02:03.:02:09.

it is debatable and not straightforward, the problem is you

:02:10.:02:14.

want us all to pay more tax for it. This is part of what we want more

:02:15.:02:20.

tax board. I would disagree with your description of the pupil

:02:21.:02:23.

premium I think it is much more certain than that. If you want

:02:24.:02:29.

people to pay more tax you must have witty uncontroversial evidence that

:02:30.:02:32.

what they are to pay tax board will make a difference. It is providing

:02:33.:02:38.

for kids from disadvantaged backgrounds, you are say that will

:02:39.:02:42.

cause a problem but I think investing in children when they need

:02:43.:02:46.

it most is what we need to do to make a big difference to people in

:02:47.:02:52.

Scotland. It is a massive cut to our education system, they have done it

:02:53.:02:55.

to colleges already and have not been able to feed through to the

:02:56.:03:00.

nursery education and now they are to slash budgets in schools and I

:03:01.:03:03.

want to go in the opposite direction. Why do our taxes have to

:03:04.:03:08.

go up? In the UK Government you did not put tax up to pay for it? You

:03:09.:03:15.

had a much more difficult position in the UK in 2011 than you have in

:03:16.:03:20.

Scotland now. We managed to find it in the south. There has been no

:03:21.:03:25.

indication they are trying to find the money to invest in education and

:03:26.:03:28.

therefore we will put our money where our mouth is. Why not find the

:03:29.:03:31.

money somewhere else? Budgets and where our mouth is. Why not find the

:03:32.:03:36.

incredibly tight, we believe it is cut to the core and we also believe

:03:37.:03:40.

we should be reinvesting in children at this time and with a modest

:03:41.:03:45.

increase of 1p on income tax we can have a big effect. Another thing

:03:46.:03:51.

will be to end dressed in colleges, in nursery education. I do not

:03:52.:03:52.

understand why you need to put tax in nursery education. I do not

:03:53.:03:56.

up. You have conceded given the budget passed this year 17 slash 18

:03:57.:04:07.

with the B time it would make a difference. Assuming you do it would

:04:08.:04:13.

be 17/ 18. You could shuffle spending around, take money from

:04:14.:04:18.

reserves, it is probably some flexibility by that time to transfer

:04:19.:04:21.

some capital budgets to borrowing and to use the money to... For your

:04:22.:04:28.

pupil premium. Why do you have to put people's taxes up? You made it

:04:29.:04:33.

sound very easily that you can just shuffle a few things around and

:04:34.:04:37.

magically create different call money but it does not work quite

:04:38.:04:41.

that. The Conservatives are promoting massive cuts to the

:04:42.:04:44.

Scottish budget and we want to do something about it. We have done

:04:45.:04:48.

much more than when we were in government at Westminster. I want to

:04:49.:04:52.

invest money and people agree with me.

:04:53.:04:59.

The reserve being held at the moment is just ?9 million. ?500 million of

:05:00.:05:14.

cuts are coming to our schools and it will impact on every year, that

:05:15.:05:19.

is not think schools can put up with when we are falling down the

:05:20.:05:24.

international league tables of educational performance. We used to

:05:25.:05:30.

have them best educational system in the world and now we're just above

:05:31.:05:35.

average. That is not nearly good enough and that is why I want to

:05:36.:05:40.

make Abe the Wallasey offer. It is important and you cannot just

:05:41.:05:45.

dismiss it as shuffling around to magic of money. I didn't dismiss it,

:05:46.:05:50.

I suggested there might be other ways of winding the money. There's

:05:51.:05:56.

also a macro economic reason for not putting taxes up, every economist

:05:57.:06:02.

says we are heading for a slowdown, surely the last thing you want to do

:06:03.:06:07.

is take money out of the economy. You want to get the right talents of

:06:08.:06:13.

tax and spend and you ignore the economic impact of investing in

:06:14.:06:17.

education. There are massive skills gaps, businesses are crying out for

:06:18.:06:23.

skilled workers. I am not ignorant that, the SMB say the art investing

:06:24.:06:29.

in education, just not what you have come up with. They are slashing

:06:30.:06:35.

budgets to colleges, they have butchered the college sector in

:06:36.:06:40.

recent years and I want to put that right. We need business is with

:06:41.:06:46.

skilled people to create jobs to pay the taxes that will keep the economy

:06:47.:06:53.

on track. If we ignore that side of the balance sheet we will be in even

:06:54.:06:58.

worse economic conditions than now. I want to ask you about Alistair

:06:59.:07:03.

Carmichael, would you be happy for him to be a candidate for the

:07:04.:07:08.

Liberal Democrats in a future election? We are sometime or from

:07:09.:07:13.

that decision. Alistair will make his own might up but in the meantime

:07:14.:07:18.

he is getting on with representing people. But the Liberal Democrats

:07:19.:07:27.

pose as being the honest people, cleaner, straightforward, what you

:07:28.:07:32.

see is what you get, but you have already experienced a new terminal

:07:33.:07:35.

collapse of voters because of tuition fees and the Alistair

:07:36.:07:40.

Carmichael situation isn't helping. It is not good in to say it is up to

:07:41.:07:48.

Alistair Carmichael, it is up to the leader of the party that wants to be

:07:49.:07:53.

different from other parties. I have an election campaign to fight in a

:07:54.:07:57.

few weeks, I will discuss Alistair's future with him after that. The

:07:58.:08:02.

election is four years away. I am trying to get on and grow the number

:08:03.:08:08.

of Liberal Democrats in the Scottish Parliament, we need strong Liberal

:08:09.:08:15.

Democrats to stand up on education and mental health, issues that evil

:08:16.:08:21.

are crying out for a proper political debate on and it is my job

:08:22.:08:27.

to put that case so Scotland can be the best again. We will have that

:08:28.:08:32.

discussion later. Willie Rennie, thank you.

:08:33.:08:40.

I almost said retired historian that he is about to publish a new book.

:08:41.:08:51.

was an outspoken supporter of the Yes side

:08:52.:08:54.

Now he says that the SNP hasn't addressed the economic weaknesses

:08:55.:08:57.

of its case to become an independent nation,

:08:58.:09:00.

and that Brexit shouldn't be the catalyst

:09:01.:09:01.

Well, he's here with me in the studio to answer that.

:09:02.:09:06.

You haven't changed your mind, have you? Not on the principle of

:09:07.:09:11.

independence, to change my mind after that after all the

:09:12.:09:14.

soul-searching in 2014 would lack credibility. But you did say if

:09:15.:09:20.

there was another one, let's say Britain voted to leave Europe and

:09:21.:09:25.

there was another referendum, you said you would abstain. The

:09:26.:09:31.

intellectual case for another referendum at the moment does not

:09:32.:09:37.

stand up. My concern in terms of somebody who voted for independence

:09:38.:09:40.

a couple of years ago is that such a move would be counter-productive,

:09:41.:09:47.

and it might result in the parking of this major issue for the future

:09:48.:09:51.

of this country for a very long time in the future because there is no

:09:52.:09:56.

evidence at the moment, there may be in opinion polls to come, but there

:09:57.:10:01.

is no evidence at the moment that there is yet the clear breakthrough

:10:02.:10:07.

for the Yes vote that I think is necessary for a rerun of September

:10:08.:10:13.

2014. But if they did have another referendum, to abstain is hardly

:10:14.:10:17.

helpful to the cause. Abstain means, the reason I said that is because

:10:18.:10:22.

they are not convinced there should be such a thing. If it comes to the

:10:23.:10:27.

point and things seem to be changing as we go down that road, clearly I

:10:28.:10:32.

will have to rethink my position, but we're a long way from that now

:10:33.:10:36.

because all the signs are, despite the current league that the out

:10:37.:10:42.

campaign has in England, I think it is highly likely there will be no

:10:43.:10:50.

Brexit. If there was, if we did leave the EU, one of your points is

:10:51.:10:54.

that you think from your research for your book that the European,

:10:55.:11:02.

joining the EU was one of the things that bound England and Scotland were

:11:03.:11:10.

loosely, so could the UK outside the EU actually re-forged the UK? It

:11:11.:11:17.

could inflame and stimulate some of those elements of the border which

:11:18.:11:22.

are totally opposed even to devilish and, because the elements south of

:11:23.:11:29.

the border who were so extreme, your skip X, they have little time for

:11:30.:11:34.

Scottish devolution, far less independence. What side are you

:11:35.:11:41.

taking in the Brexit debate? Personally I want to stay in because

:11:42.:11:47.

I think isolation in this particular juncture in world or European

:11:48.:11:53.

history is not a good idea. Like most people I have major criticisms

:11:54.:11:57.

to make of the huge and giving your rocker says. -- burgeoning

:11:58.:12:04.

bureaucracies. But you clearly do not think people in Scotland feel

:12:05.:12:09.

strongly enough that if the UK vote to leave, that would change the

:12:10.:12:17.

odds. I think the issue of Scottish independence is more fundamental.

:12:18.:12:22.

But you don't think people will say they will vote for independence

:12:23.:12:24.

because written votes to leave Europe. The future is not my period

:12:25.:12:31.

so to say that is speculation. At the moment there is no evidence that

:12:32.:12:37.

forwards it would produce a huge surge of commitment to independence.

:12:38.:12:42.

There seems to have been little discussion about the weaknesses in

:12:43.:12:47.

the Yes campaign, for example the issue of currency. There has been no

:12:48.:12:52.

debate since the referendum. Two reasons why I would urge caution in

:12:53.:13:00.

terms of what Nicola Sturgeon said, that almost automatically Brexit

:13:01.:13:04.

would result in another referendum on Scottish independence. The first

:13:05.:13:10.

is what we have discussed, the electoral dynamic for independence,

:13:11.:13:14.

a clear-cut majority over a period of time does not yet exist. That

:13:15.:13:20.

second think this what you have just brought up, the intellectual

:13:21.:13:24.

problem. The intellectual defence of the end of Hendon 's position has

:13:25.:13:30.

not yet sorted out. There has been no one tent made that I am aware of

:13:31.:13:35.

to address these major issues you talked about like that aren't say,

:13:36.:13:41.

like future Scottish economic development, especially since the

:13:42.:13:45.

fiscal position in this country has deteriorated since December 2014.

:13:46.:13:48.

I'll be back at the same time next week.

:13:49.:13:53.

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer are joined by Lord Michael Howard and Alan Johnson to discuss the EU referendum. Panellists include Janan Ganesh, Isabel Oakeshott and Nick Watt.

The programme also looks at Jeremy Corbyn's decision to attend the weekend's CND rally in central London.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS