08/05/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer present the latest political news and all the fallout on the local elections, including reaction from Caroline Flint and Clive Lewis.

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A thumping big win for Labour over the Conservatives in London -


but what do Thursday's less impressive results across


the country mean for Jeremy Corbyn's chances of getting to Number 10?


We'll hear from both sides of the debate


Here's one Tory riding high at least.


Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson has managed to take


the party once thought of as too toxic for Scotland


And with the elections now over, it's back to the biggest political


The Cabinet's heavyweights have been trading blows


Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland...


third term in office, but falls short of an


We'll be speaking to Nicola Sturgeon live.


giving media interviews this morning, I'm joined in the studio


by the aristocracy, the upper crust, the royalty


Tom Newton-Dunn, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Steve Richards.


We're going to have a whip round after the show


and get Steve a double-barrelled surname too.


demonstration of modern democracy in the United Kingdom.


There was good and bad for almost every political party


across the nations and regions, and that's meant a feast


of spinning, analysis, claim and counter-claim.


Well today with almost all of the results now in -


although we're still waiting for a few police and crime


commissioners and one English council - we're going to try


First here's Adam with his behind-the-scenes look at how


It's election night, and my chance to annoy the big


And this is the most depressing bit.


Are you expecting to get a bit of a headache?


It's a two day extravaganza of results.


Will Jeremy Corbyn be staying up all night tonight?


Jeremy doesn't go to bed on nights like this!


We're old mates, we've been together 30 years on these different things


So you're both proper election night geeks?


The Labour telly addicts watched their party lose one council


and a handful of councillors in England, not a lot,


but not amazing either, as even Jeremy Corbyn admitted.


We were getting predictions that Labour was going to lose councils,


Although he celebrated winning two by-elections in pretty


This is the first time I've ever had a desk at one of these things.


The SNP got close to a majority in the Scottish Parliament,


It is a vote of confidence in the record in government


of the SNP, and it is a vote of trust in the SNP to lead


Davidson, Ruth - Scottish and Conservative and Unionist...


The biggest smile belongs to Ruth Davidson, leader


of the Scottish Tories, who displaced Labour to become


Have you been looking in the results in Scotland than just going whoa?


Even if you look at some of the seats...


We've just seen a few come through, the SNP have hold of one, but,


actually, with huge swings from the SNP to the Conservatives.


In Wales Ukip won their first seats on the Assembly,


meaning a comeback for the former Tory MP Neil Hamilton,


who managed to offend one Welshman within seconds.


I'm thoroughly Welsh through and through,


Here were are in virtually your hometown of Llanelli.


Just one correction, Neil, of course it's not


virtually my hometown - it is my hometown.


So let's be very accurate about that, shall we?


By lunchtime on Friday, us media types had realised that


nothing especially dramatic had happened, so we all hotfooted


it to City Hall to see Labour's Sadiq Khan elected


Though most of the chat among the hacks in the press room


was about the campaign run by his Tory rival, Zac Goldsmith,


which was described as mean and divisive.


I personally never went near central office in either


of my campaigns, and I don't think Boris Johnson did either.


Is that because they're not very good?


That's because you are the candidates, it is


your campaign and you should run it your way.


And Labour nabbed another mayor, in Bristol, taking over


The results from other campaigns around the UK are still


It's not been super exciting, but we have got a nice view


So with almost all the counting and number crunching across England,


Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland now finished, let's take a look


The SNP won the Scottish election, and will be the largest party


But Nicola Sturgeon's party fell two short of a majority, and will govern


Ruth Davidson's Conservatives overtook Labour to become the second


Scottish Labour were pushed into 3rd place -


with 24 seats, down 13 from the last Holyrood election.


Labour remains the dominant party in Wales, winning 29


And Leanne Wood's Plaid Cymru pipped the Conservatives 12 to 11 to become


taking 7 seats in Wales - the first time they've sat


In Northern Ireland, the DUP will once again


They won 38 seats, with the next biggest party Sinn Fein on 28.


Results in the English councils were seen as a major test


And the party had a mixed night, winning the most councils -


but losing 23 councillors since the last elections in 2012.


There were two Westminster by-elections - with Labour


holding the seats of Sheffield Brightside and Ogmore.


And the Labour party won in London too -


where Sadiq Khan beat Zac Goldsmith to the mayoralty,


winning 57% of the vote on first preferences, to Goldsmith's 43%.


The Green Party came third in the London elections -


with their highest vote tally yet in the capital.


Finally, voters in 40 police forces in England and Wales


elected their new Police and Crime Commissioner.


With the Tories and Labour triumphing over independents.


With 36 of the 40 election results having declared, the Tories have won


What does this mean, in the round, for Labour? It is the worst possible


result for Labour, because it isn't good enough, and it isn't bad


enough, which is the worst-case scenario for anyone who wants Labour


to win in 2020. This is concerning the likes of Jeremy Corbyn and John


McDonnell, but it is the point of being a political party, winning


elections. Is it the worst of both worlds because they didn't do badly


enough? To justify ousting Corbyn, but they didn't do well enough to


suggest that Corbyn's people were right, and there was a groundswell


of opinion moving to the far left. We saw the message coming out from


the deputy leader on Friday morning, stand-down everyone, not yet. Do you


agree? No. Even if these results had been much worse, as many expected it


would be in the media and beyond, it still wouldn't have been the mood


now. It is all being played out in public. Tom Watson, the deputy


leader, gave an interview on Friday where he called ambiguously for


patients. What he meant was, it is far too early to remove a leader who


got an overwhelming mandate nine months ago in September. And he's


right about that. You can't do it if the party membership overwhelmingly


backs the leader. But what he meant by patients was, you don't have to


translate it, there is a time-limit to this. Jeremy Corbyn needs more


time to show he can put together a winning formula. If he fails in


that, at some point, there will be he and others who will trigger some


kind of challenge. So he's on a leasehold? Yes. He's not doing well


enough to suggest he will win the next election. I don't agree with


Julia that people are indifferent about winning elections. But party


members who voted for Jeremy Corbyn are absolutely different to winning


elections. I don't know. I assume that people who go out knocking on


doors want to win. Sadiq Khan. That was the big result for Labour, and


he won very comfortably. He won very strongly in the GLA as well. The


Tories did very badly. We have this strange situation where, despite


Sadiq Khan being the poster boy for the night, he still hasn't met


Jeremy Corbyn. Is Mr Khan going to be an alternative Labour Party based


around London City Hall? He tells us he's going to meet Jeremy Corbyn


tomorrow. Corbyn said they were going to meet today. It is a real


problem for Jeremy now because he is up against someone else with their


own mandate, an enormous one. 1.3 million Londoners, together with


their second preferences. A huge number. I think Sadiq Khan will use


that to be the mouthpiece of the moderates, the soft left. I would


suggest that if we were not looking at this through the prism of what it


means for Mr Corbyn, we may be pointing out that the Tories didn't


have a great night. They lost seats in England and Wales, they lost


London and their share of the vote in London is now under 30%. They


only got eight seats on the Greater London assembly. They are in their


worst position since 2004, which was the second time we had a London


election. It isn't brilliant for them. They would save the first year


in government, do get this kind of reaction. Or worse ones. At what is


overlooked in all this is that the last Labour government's post-97


devolution proposals has transformed UK politics. In Scotland, the


Conservatives are thrilled because they came second, but that wasn't


about David Cameron, it was about Ruth Davidson, their leader there.


In London, when people voted for Sadiq Khan, they were not thinking


about Jeremy Corbyn. They were voting for him. Unintentionally,


those devolution proposals have transformed UK politics, fracturing


the UK parties, and will no longer allow any single party to make those


sort of thousand seat gains that Blair did. But the Tories shouldn't


be too complacent about this. It wasn't a great result. It wasn't,


but who would expect it? The party is an absolute disarray, the deepest


divisions. We have had a senior Cabinet Minister resign, criticising


the Prime Minister and the Chancellor. If they did well this


time, I would be surprised. So the Tories should have done worse? They


should. I would disagree with your hypothesis to begin with, because


they are, in some parts of this country, making remarkable progress,


like Scotland. They could have lost seats. We know the Ruth Davidson


story. If David Cameron can show his own party he's still a winner, six


years into government, I would suggest he is pretty safe


post-referendum. Well, that is our panel's verdict.


So the high point for the Conservatives this week


was undoubtedly in Scotland, where a party once known


as the toxic Tories has become Ruth Davidson's Conservatives,


replacing Labour as Scotland's second party and becoming


the official opposition to the SNP at Holyrood.


Ruth Davidson successfully positioned herself as the only


person capable of standing up to Nicola Sturgeon over independence


This morning Nicola Sturgeon says "bring it on2.


Well we can speak now to Ruth Davidson, she joins us


Good morning. Are the Scottish Conservatives now quite separate


from the Tories? There was no appearance in your campaign from


ministers in Westminster. But our campaign was launched in March?


Other than that, did anybody come up to campaign for you? This was not


about London. It is a sophisticated electorate in Scotland. People knew


what they were voting for. This wasn't about who would be Prime


Minister. This was about who would be the First Minister of Scotland,


and who would be the Leader of the Opposition in Scotland. I made a


very clear campaign of what I would do if I were to be the Leader of the


Opposition, how I would hold the SNP to account, how I would say no to a


second independence referendum, and how I would concentrate on the


things that matter to ordinary Scots. Let's not go over the


campaign again! I could probably say those lines in my sleep! In what


ways to you now regard yourself as distinctive and different from the


English Tories? Since I took over as leader I was


the first leader in Scotland to be the leader of the entire party in


Scotland. In terms of fundraising, Pelissie... What made you different?


You had seen me takes on different policy decisions from my colleagues


down south, if you compare the manifestos you will see differences,


for one example, the right to buy for housing association houses. We


don't think that is appropriate for the housing market in Scotland. How


colleagues did down south. There is a distinct difference that. I wonder


if it was a Scottish Conservative idea or not. The title was Ruth


Davidson, a strong opposition. It did say Scottish Conservatives twice


on the front cover. And multiply many times inside. In the Times, the


roof, the whole truth and nothing but the roof. You created a new Tory


brand. -- Ruth the. We don't fight just as conservatives


in Scotland but conservatives in the Unionist party. The echoes of the


Unionist party played quite loud in this election was that they were


looking for people who would unequivocally stand up for the


decision we made just 20 months ago. I think that was an area we fought


strongly on now we have had some success. While I recognise a win for


the Scottish National party, they are now in a third term of


government, and I congratulated the First Minister, what was really


significant about the result is we managed to stop them having a


majority. They slipped back. This idea that they didn't put a clear


mandate for a referendum in their manifesto, unlike in 2011, and now


they don't even have a majority, that takes the second referendum off


the table for five years and give Scotland's stability. You say a


second referendum is off the cards and I understand the reasons why. I


suggest that means unionists in the rest of the UK you would like to


back Brexit can now do so without the fear of the second independence


referendum? I argued all through this campaign irrespective of what


happens with a referendum on Europe, that is not trigger point for a


second referendum. I haven't heard anyone in the SNP argued


successfully if there are was a Brexit... It is important we stay


part of the union in which we export so many goods and services. I have


yet to have anyone in the SNP explain it. But I look forward in


the coming weeks to hear them make the argument for that. Last time the


SNP were a majority government the Scottish Tories gave them crucial


support on budget votes. Can you see us of doing that again? I think


times move on. The SNP is no longer led by Alex Salmond... We know that.


I think we will be robust. I will seek to put forward alternatives. I


want to be as positive as I can be, not just crudely and blocking and


questioning, although all of that is important. The debate we haven't had


in Scotland for the last five years, but I want to put forward


alternatives. One area I think we can make common cause is reforming


education, it is a disgrace our school performances have gone back


in Scotland in recent years. We used to have the best education system


anywhere in the world. That is no longer the case. There is a lot I


can do to try and bring the SNP onto our ground. I managed in the last


parliament coming from third, in terms of school testing and money


not just being handed to local authorities, I think we got a wink,


teach first. There are real areas I think we can help the debate in


Scotland and put forward is positive or turn at its. You shouldn't


overplay your part. The SNP is still the dominant party in Holyrood, you


are second, but all the other opposition parties are to the left


of you. You're still a minority voice and won't be able to count on


the opposition, other opposition parties ganging up on your side? We


are a hugely important voice precisely because of the other side


in voices you have identified. The First Minister, like the Prime


Minister has competing and conflicting areas of interest: how


one way or another. You are right to say Nicola Sturgeon has that she


wants to make Scotland the highest in the UK. The other parties are


trying to drag a further left, taking more money out of the pocket


of ordinary working Scots. Our voice is crucial to pull her back to the


centre, saying that is not the way to look after the Beeb all working


hard and deserve a break in Scotland but also not the way to look after a


Scottish economy. Last month's figures, 20,000 rise in unemployment


in the UK, most of which came from Scotland. Our economic growth is a


fraction of the rest of the UK. We need to become a more competitive


country. That is an odd and I can make very strongly. Let me ask you


this, when you look at the huge powers that have been devolved


Scotland, and more on their way over schools, education, hospitals,


health, transport and now a chunk of tax as well, is it ever conceivable


that a Scottish MP from a Scottish constituency could ever again be


Prime Minister of the United given that they would have no


responsibility for so many things that affect the rest of the UK? Of


course. Typically in the last Labour government you had a health minister


who came from Lanarkshire in John Reid you had a chance of that came


from Edinburgh. Is that conceivable again, that you could have a Home


Secretary from a Scottish constituency, where everything on


the home front is essentially devolved to Scotland? It was


devolved at the time it was being taken over by John Reid. I know he


played Parliamentary bingo and got a lot of big jobs. If you have English


votes for English laws, a Scottish Prime Minister wouldn't even get to


vote on his own policies. Andrew, you and I have talked about this


many times. You saw our Strathclyde commission report, the basis that


the Smith commission, the devolution of all these powers on one of the


key aspects of that, looking at great detail with constitutional


expert, was to ensure it wouldn't divest Scotland away from the rest


of the UK. I don't think it does. In terms of all of the big jobs, I


think you will see another Scottish Prime Minister, or from Wales or


Northern Ireland. Talent will out. Do you think you've Zac Goldsmith


bought the kind of campaign you fought in Scotland the Conservatives


might have held on to the mayor? I don't qualify to talk about that,


I've only been to London once this year. I knew I had a job to deliver


here in Scotland. Even though I am a political geek I didn't watch the


London mayoral race that closely I had a job to do the. Thank you.


So Labour ended the week with a big result to feel cheerful about thanks


to Sadiq Khan's thumping win over Zac Goldsmith to become


The numeric macro has used his big job in office to reach out beyond


the activists, which sounds like criticism of Jeremy Corbyn. He was


talking to Andrew Marr earlier. We in Labour, our mission is to


improve people's lives, and change We only do that


by winning elections, by having a mandate


to improve people's lives. What are the challenges


facing Londoners? How do you tackle


the housing crisis? How do you ensure we have a modern


and affordable transport system? How do young people get


the skills of tomorrow? We only do that by speaking to those


people who previously By speaking to Tory voters,


to those outside of our tent. And my point is, we've got to


stop talking about ourselves. Well, to discuss this we're joined


from Leeds by Caroline Flint, she was of course a former minister


and was in Ed Miliband's Welcome back to the programme


Caroline Flint. Let me put Sadiq Khan's quote to you. So-called


natural Labour voters alone will never be enough to win a general


election. Have you seen any progress from Thursday's results that Jeremy


Corbyn's Labour Party is making progress in appealing to beyond the


faithful? We need to make a lot more progress, Andrew. Although we had a


fantastic result in London with Sadiq Khan, and I have to say the


Tory campaign was both shameful and disgusting. We won in Bristol with


Marvin and held onto councils like Crawley, Southampton and Redditch


and Hastings, where I have been many times. It is not enough. We have to


show that we are a party that is competitively challenging the


government. That is why, as Sadiq said in his interview in the


Observer today, we have to reach out beyond the big cities and reach out


to those people who voted Conservative to vote Labour. Then we


can have big politics for a big election and when it. What you say


to John McDonnell, been a bit too in your party, saying I think we are on


a steady course for victory in 2020. We are laying the foundations for


that long haul victory in 2020. Is he right or wrong? I believe in


honest straight talking politics. John McDonnell said in the run-up to


these elections, we are looking to hang on. Looking to hang on isn't


enough. This is the worst result for an opposition party after a general


election in 30th. The year after Michael foot was elected we gained


1000 council seats. Tony Blair 1800, Ed Miliband over 800. We actually


had a loss of 28. In fact, the Tories, when you look at directly


contested elections, gained three. It doesn't take away from the hard


work on the ground by Labour councillors, Parliamentary


candidates and members in these elections, but we need to be making


far more inroads to be within an opportunity to win in 2020. That is


the challenge for Jeremy. He deserves the right to lead, won the


election, but he has to show, what have the loan from these elections?


Will he talked people like Sadiq Khan to think about how we broaden


our appeal so we can be in a very strong position, 2020. How long has


it got to learn these lessons? Our members were only elected in


September last year. I said he won on a huge mandate. He has not only


won the right to be leader, he is the leader and our members believe


Labour leaders should have the time to prove themselves. But, you know


we know when the election is going to be, that is something relatively


new to our politics in Britain. We also know this election we have to


be honest about what the positive aspects and also about what didn't


work and where we need to gain ground. How long have you got?


People will be looking to hear from Jeremy what he's run and how he will


take us forward and they will be looking... We have elections next


year and the year after, but we have to ask ourselves is a party. I think


this is a really big task for Jeremy Tilse. We are having a debate about


what is the Labour Party for? We have to decide, are we a party of


protest or a mainstream, democratic socialist party which is


competitively challenging for government? If we are the latter,


which we should be, we need to have the politics and the leadership to


actually talk about that much, much more and take us board. That is


really important for all of us. We have to ask ourselves is well, we


have ten years of opposition here. We don't need another five on top of


that. John McDonnell thinks you begrudge things. He says, for


goodness sake get behind the leader, it is time to put up or shut up. I


am someone who loves the Labour Party. I joined in 1979, I know what


it's like... Put up or shut up? I am putting up. I put up in the House of


Commons, where I am working with John McDonnell's team on tax


transparency measures. We have a Tory party that should be absolutely


on the ropes. A jet measures they had to drop on tax credits, Sunday


trading they have had to drop, and I knew turned since the last general


election. The education policy in tatters, the Panama papers, it goes


election. The education policy in on and on. The truth is we need to


be making sure that the public know about that and we have an


alternative to that. At the moment, despite all those issues facing the


Tory party, we didn't make as much progress as we showed. Let's be


honest about these results, let's be honest about we need to reach out


beyond our core vote, just as Sadiq Khan said. I hope John McDonnell


will back me on that. Lets see if we can continue with this honesty.


Given Scotland is now effectively a no go area for Labour, how could you


ever hope to win the 2020 election on England alone? You would need a


13 point lead, a bigger lead than Tony Blair had. That is just not


conceivable. It is a massive challenge, Andrew. In Scotland are


very disappointing night for Scotland. I think how Scottish


friends all know that the way back for Labour will take some time. I


wouldn't blame Jeremy Corbyn for what happened in Scotland either.


You are right. My understanding is if we don't make the sort of


comeback we need to in Scotland, in the numbers were used to be able to


rely on, we need to gain something like 100 seats, 100 seats in England


to have a majority. We need to have that sort of talking within the


party. Activists realise protests in themselves will not be enough.


Labour votes won't be enough and I'm looking to Jeremy Corbyn to provide


the leadership that. A final question. What you say to


several Tory MPs who have said to me, and I quote, Mr Corbyn's


survival is the single most important thing for Tories for 2020?


If we are not winning elections, they will say that. In many


respects, the Tories were probably relatively relieved. Despite the


shameful campaign they ran in London, given everything that's been


going on in government in the last eight months, they should be quite


relieved in terms of the result. We need to show them that Jeremy can


stand up and face those criticisms, and the way he does that is by


reaching out, as Sadiq Khan has done, as have many councils across


the country in keeping their seats, and do the right thing for Labour.


We need to move on, Caroline. Thank you.


So that's the view of one former member of the Labour frontbench -


we're joined now by the current shadow energy minister Clive Lewis,


he's in our Norwich studio - welcome to the Sunday Politics.


Morning, Andrew. Caroline Flint was saying that George Osborne's latest


budget is in ruins, the Tories are tearing themselves apart over


Europe, Iain Duncan Smith resigned because of what the government is


doing to the working poor. The best Mr Corbyn could say was, we hung on.


Is that good enough? Let's have a look at the focus of the media to --


the media and the punditry. It was issued in the Labour Party that was


the core focus for you guys. You brought that on yourselves. The


bottom line is, at the start of your programme, you began that the


results of the Labour Party, when actually, we were up 2% in the


national share vote and the Tories were down 5%. Yet you in your


commentators started on how it was a result for Labour. I'm not saying it


was anything to shout about. But let's look at the results. You need


13 points to win, so I would suggest that one or two points is neither


here nor there was yellow Caroline Flint hit the nail on the head in


that we have a massive task in front of us. But infighting is not the way


forward. That is not going to help us achieve victory in 2020. We all


know it is a massive uphill struggle. We need to think how we


can make the best effort to win in 2020, and that is what the next few


weeks and months need to be about. I agree with with so much of what


Sadiq Khan said in his interview. Why doesn't Jeremy Corbyn meet with


him? I think he will. But he won the capital city, by 14 points. It was


an incredible victory, the first Muslim leader of a major city in


Europe. And Mr Corbyn, we haven't seen him anywhere near him yet. It


is a fantastic victory. Sadiq Khan nominated Jeremy. He didn't vote for


him, which is a brilliantly principled position. Corbyn and Khan


are comrades and good friends. They have a lot to learn from each other.


Sadiq Khan won because he was with Jeremy Corbyn. All the people in


London who are supporting the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn and


reaching out. I am sure that Sadiq and Jeremy will meet in the near


future. It is certainly unusual. Caroline Flint has just told us that


the Conservatives should be happy and relieved by Thursday's results.


I don't think they should. In Exeter they lost four seats. In Ipswich,


there were seats we didn't even win in 97. Their share of the vote is


down 5%. They didn't make the games expected in Wales. I don't think it


is a fantastic result for them at all. I expect the Conservatives will


try to turn the focus back on to Labour, but I don't think they've


got anything to crow about either at the moment. What do you say to Ian


Murray, the Scottish Secretary, the only Labour MP in Scotland. He says,


Murray, the Scottish Secretary, the I don't think the public see the UK


Labour Party led by Jeremy Corbyn as being a credible party of future


government in 2020. I listened to the whole interview, and I respect


Ian Murray great real. I heard his statement. I think he was saying,


basically, where we are as a party at the moment isn't good enough. I


don't think you'll find anyone in the Labour Party who would disagree


with that. We need to move forward and consolidate. These results were


not the disaster that you and the punditry were predicting. We were


told 150 or 200 seats lost -- would be lost. We were told Jeremy Corbyn


wouldn't win, and then he won with a landslide. We won -- we heard that


the old by-election would be a disaster. And he won. I think the


thing to think about now is that politics is in flux. In the US, we


have a socialist running Hillary Clinton to the wire, but then you


have Donald Trump standing as well. People are concerned and angry, and


things are changing, and the punditry needs to take that into


account and reflect that things are changing. We will take that into


account. I never use the word disaster to talk about Labour's


performance on Thursday. Let's stick with that. I put to you that surely


the real lesson from Scotland is this - if you continue to attack


north of the border, as you have been, you need to do better in


England than even Tony Blair did in 97, and that, I put to you, is


frankly fantasy. Let's look at Scotland. It was a very difficult


night for us. I would rather you looked at England and tell me how


you will do well. This is the issue you will do well. This is the issue


- what we have done in this weeks election is consolidate our vote in


2015 and improve it by 2%. We now need to move forward. We now have


next to no chance of winning in 2020 if we remain a divided house, and


that is what has happened at the moment. What we can all learn from


Sadiq was explaining is -- in his interview is that we have


consolidated our vote in 2015 and improved it, and now we have to move


on small businesses, to those who are affected by the government cuts


on public services. We need to reach out to people who have voted


Conservative in the past. I think it is a message that Jeremy Corbyn has


two and will listen to. But the key thing is that a house divided has no


chance of being able to do that in 2020. Thank you for joining us.


It's just gone 11.35am - you're watching the Sunday Politics.


We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now


we're going to be talking about a big week ahead


First, though, the Sunday Politics where you are.


With enthusiasm and confidence clearly and firmly behind us, we


will collectively get on with the job of delivering for the people of


our country. Kezia Dugdale put a brave face on it


as the party vote collapsed - can Scottish Labour rebuild


or it is a spent force? Asked before the election


if the Conservatives would take overtake Labour and become the main


opposition, the Tory leader Ruth Davidson


responded unequivocally yes. Well, the rest, as


they say, is history. Just how did the Conservatives


detoxify their brand, win seats for a raft of new MSPs


and revitalise the party's fortunes Yesterday Ruth Davidson acknowledged


the role played by a coalition of blue collared workers who'd never


been persuaded to back She's promised to hold


the SNP to account. Earlier I spoke to the party's


deputy leader, Jackson Carlaw, Well, Nicola Sturgeon said she has


an unequivocal mandate to implement her manifesto. Doshi? Unequivocal is


to overstate it. It reminds me of the politics of assertion which


worked with a fork in the last government. There is no doubt in our


minds the preferred government of Scotland is one run by Nicola


Sturgeon and the SNP. But the public have a way of correcting things and


I think they were slightly uncomfortable with the overbearing


arrogance of the last SNP government and decided they wanted a proper


opposition to clip the wings and see a government deposed. Nationalists


said we need an opposition and government. That is the job they


have entrusted to the Scottish Conservatives. Nicola Sturgeon says


Ruth Davidson is overreaching when she says the SNP have no mandate for


a second independence referendum. Issue bite? Again, she is asserting


a position which is defied by the results. The key platform on which


the Scottish Conservatives and Ruth stood was not just the strong


opposition but no to a second referendum, no other party was


unequivocal about that. We were. A government that no longer has a


majority, Nicola Sturgeon in the last week of the campaign, it was


the eye word. I will decide I will review, I will look at the opinion


polls and to independence. I do not think she has the right to stand


there and say it all about her. If you add in the greens there is a


pro-independence majority parliament so should they decide collectively


they want to push for another referendum, why did not have the


right? It would be foolish to try, it was not in the manifesto, I do


not think they have mandate and Scotland has made it clear it wants


to see the government get on with governments and to put independence


issue aside. The Scottish Conservatives have done that. It is


not going to happen. You are saying what you think should happen, what


is to stop them collectively come the greens and the SNP saying we


have a majority, we will push for a second referendum and we have the


right to do that because we have a majority. I know the problem with


common sense it is it is not common. If the SNP has common sense it will


recognise if it pushes on and persists with trying to put Scotland


through another referendum it is going to come to grief. They need to


demonstrate they can govern the country. Come to grief in what


sense? At subsequent elections. That is -- stratification -- satisfaction


was down. This was not in the manifesto. I do not think they have


a mandate, Nicola Sturgeon wants to implement her manifesto in full,


having a second referendum was not in the manifesto. Should they do it


and they are asserting they may do it, should they do that, do you


think the British government should it, should they do that, do you


step in and say, sorry, you can't have that. You do not have the


mandate. I do believe it will get to that point. I would not be unhappy


if they did but I do not believe it will get to that point. I think we


will see a parliament now with a strong opposition, not just from the


Conservatives but other opposition parties with more teeth to change


the agenda. We will move onto other issues. You say you will not be


unhappy if did but that would give the Scottish Nationalists and


everyone who supports independence the greatest cause for grievance


they ever had. But it isn't going to happen! The focus is going to be on


the other issues and the most immediate one is the legislation for


which there is a natural majority against. Do you expect that to be


one of the first things where you can challenge the unequivocal right


of Nicola Sturgeon? Absolutely. We want to stop it. And you think you


can? There was a natural majority across other parties that realise


the concerns with the public, it became as the election moron a big


issue on the doorsteps -- election war on. It is something many SNP


people are wondering if they have done the right thing. That is where


we will make a difference. Tax. Actually, you are the only


opposition party that agrees with the SNP on the basic rate of tax so


presumably you would be happy to help them get through their


proposals on tax. Well, we have come into the parliament to be a party


that will lead the opposition, we will look at the budget as a whole,


we will not be looking at it piecemeal to see if there are any


trinkets in there. When it comes to opposing rises in the basic rate of


tax which the Lib Dems and greens and Labour want, you would stand by


the SNP? We do not isolate the budget in that way taking votes on


the individual pieces, we look at the budget as a whole. Unless the


budget will restore the 152,000 college places and deliver on other


key areas we supported then we will be there to oppose the government


not to vote piecemeal for things we do not approve. Would you want in


negotiations to demand the Scottish government George Osborne's proposal


is implemented? The policy will be for the Scottish government to put


forward its budget and we will look to see what they do. Our concern is


to ensure overall tax in Scotland is no higher here than elsewhere in the


UK. We think it is bad. We are conscious of the fact the proposals


of the SNP will drag into higher rate tax all manner of people but I


do not think were paying high tax five years ago who I do not think


people regard as being rich. You could say to them this is what we


people regard as being rich. You believe if you want us to support


you, give us this. It is not a case of looking at individual tax policy


and saying that leads us to support the budget. We will look at the


budget in its entirety. We are not going to be standing there beating


our chests saying the Tories are back. We'll be standing there saying


with Davidsson's Conservatives have arrived and will look at the job of


opposition in a completely different way to ensure there was a political


opposition, a different centre of gravity in the parliament, a battle


of ideas and that is the challenge is open to us if we are to respond


to the confidence given to us by people to be the opposition in


Scotland. Nine years in office,


over a million votes, a third successive term in office


and a personal mandate But, crucially, the party fell short


of achieving an outright majority. The SNP has ruled out a formal


coalition and will need to win support for its legislation


by working with the other parties But yesterday Nicola Sturgeon warned


the opposition that she has a "clear "and unequivocal" mandate


to govern and they shouldn't In a moment, we will speak


to Nicola Sturgeon. The party is also no stranger


to minority government, 63 SNP MSPs, enough to give Nicola


Sturgeon the personal mandate she wanted to stop she will be the new


first minister. We pulled more votes than Labour and the Tories combined.


We also had a clean sweet in six out of seven of Scotland's cities. 63


MSPs is not enough to guarantee a majority at Holyrood and there will


be no formal coalition. We are looking at a minority government.


Because the SNP have no majority, they will have two reach out for


support from other parties and have discussions in the parliament and


hopefully open for people to see them. What happens when one party


has all the power is that it tends to use the power to concentrate and


get itself more power and that is to use the power to concentrate and


anathema to democracy. We have been here before. The SNP formed a


minority government nine years ago. In 2007 we had some of the most


progressive environmental legislation on renewable targets set


anywhere in the world. That was part down to the fact the parliament was


more diverse as you could not get that with the government, back in


2003 when we had the rainbow parliament, we had progressive


legislation on tuition fees and free school meal at a slate of came out


of those negotiations. But running a government when you are relying on


doing deals with parties like the Greens is not always easy. This is


the Scottish budget and it should be done better than this. The SNP has


worked with conservatives in the past. Our support for that budget


was conditional on three major areas of Conservative policy being


delivered. A thousand extra police, big cuts in business rates for our


smallest businesses and a new National drug strategy for Scotland.


Sticking points in this parliament are likely to include the issues of


fracking, tax rates, air passenger duty and SNP plans for a named


person to look after every child. But for all the excitement of last


Thursday night, there were 1.8 million Scots who chose not to vote,


45% of the electorate. Some people tell us they do not care enough but


when I did research with focus groups people do care a lot, about


housing, where they live and each other, they do not think the


political system is doing anything to make anything change in a way


that is beneficial. So, how do we re-engage those people? You can't


talk to them about big political issues at first, if you engage them


about things they care about locally, in the town centre then you


get onto the Y -- why it is not dealt with and explore the political


problems. I think if we look at how we do local democracy and remake


local democracy in a way that asks people what they care about and ask


them to get involved in solving the problem, and giving them the power


then I think you will build a stronger political system and


democratic society. Things have changed in Scotland. A lot of people


will be looking for what you could call the red rump. It turned up on


Thursday in Shetland. This red rump swallow snapped by the fair Isle


Bird Observatory. Joining me now is the First Minister


and leader of the SNP, Congratulations! You said yesterday,


you have won the election and I congratulate you. You talked about


having an unequivocal mandate. That is the bit you do not have.


We won the election comprehensively. In terms of the SNP as much strength


there is no change. We ended the last parliament with 64 MSP 's and


now we have 63. The relative strength of the opposition parties


have changed. For opposition parties they will be questions for them


about whether they want to align themselves more with a progressive


left of centre government so I have feeling relaxed about the


Parliamentary arithmetic. The SNP won the election. It is not an


unequivocal mandate in like you don't have another right majority. I


want to govern in an inclusive way because I think it's right to find


common ground and build on it. I am not prepared given the scale of the


SNP's mandate to allow opposition parties to undermine our ability to


argument that manifesto. What you mean by that? I have a mandate to


permit the manifesto and I'm going to do that I'd reaching out where I


can because I think that's the right thing to do. You say you don't want


them to undermine it but you will have to make compromises. Government


is about trying to build alliances and I am going to do that and I'm


also seeing clearly to the opposition parties I think they need


to recognise the scale and the emphatic nature of the mandate the


SNP has achieved. We were elected on a manifesto and as First Minister I


am intending to implement that manifesto. But you will have to get


agreement from others. Take tax, your proposals on the basic rate of


tax, the Tories are the only opposition party which supported


you. But the Tories don't support this on giving a tax cut to higher


rate tax years. The Liberals and Labour will. That is the fundamental


point I am making. The opposition parties, there will be rarer


occasions when they will come together in a common position. But


you just need the support of the Conservatives. We will put forward a


budget and six are bought from across the Parliament. But the


Conservatives are the only ones who agree with your basic policies. They


don't agree with some of our basic policies on tax. He doesn't agree


that a higher rate tax payers should be paying more. They don't agree


with our basic proposition. But you know if you get your proposals on


tax through and the Conservatives vote for you people will say hang on


you slack Labour off for ages for being on the same platform and we


are now back in a situation where an SNP government is getting its


policies through with Tory support. I will put forward a budget based on


a manifesto which secured the support of almost 50% of the


Scottish publishing. Jackson Carlaw said we don't vote on budgets in


terms of the individual aspects, Parliament vote on the totality of a


budget. I will seek support for the totality of the budget. That is how


I am going to govern, I am going to govern in a way that I think serves


the interests of Scotland and I will ask opposition parties to support


the interests of Scotland and I will us. I will seek areas of common


ground but I am not going to be thwarted in my determination to


govern in the interests of the country. Independence referendum.


Can we put that on to bed for the country. Independence referendum.


next five years? The position I put forward in the manifesto got the


support of almost 50% of the population. I know the Tories by the


standards had a good night on Thursday but we have to put it in


context. They put forward the position and Jackson Carlaw said


they were the only ones going in with an unequivocal position of


saying no to an independence referendum -- referendum.


Your manifesto was not an ambiguous. The Greens manifesto said they


wanted a million people to sign up to a petition before they would


support another referendum. The Scottish Parliament should have the


support another referendum. The right to propose another referendum.


What I acknowledged during the campaign is that those circumstances


do not yet exist. Do you need a million strong petition? The point


in going to make is that directly raised in the campaign that those of


us who support independence have got work to do to address the issues


that many people who could have backed the Yes campaign ultimately


didn't. We have to address those issues. Talking about another


referendum before we do that is putting the cart before the horse.


The Greens have even less of a mandate for a referendum than you


do. They said they wanted a million people to sign a petition. You are


claiming that because of the Greens you have a majority in parliament.


We have a majority of MSP supporting Scotland becoming independent. What


I am also saying is that those of us who support independence have got a


job to do to build the majority support not in parliament had in the


country for independence because that will determine the question.


Jackson Carlaw said he would not be unhappy if you keep going on about


this and the British Government stepped in and said you are not


having one. It might not suit the Tories or Jackson Carlaw David


Cameron but we live in a democracy and I am entitled to make the case.


The point here is a fundamental democratic point. My manifesto said


the Scottish Parliament should have the right to propose a referendum if


there is evidence that it is the preferred option of the majority of


the Scottish people. If what Conservatives are saying, they would


stand in a way of a clear majority, it is not me that's on a killer --


collision course with the Scottish publishing it is the Tories. We have


had referendums in Britain where there is clear -- clearly an issue.


We've had a referendum. The way the opinion polls go, that is not the


way British politics works. If we end up in a situation where there is


clear demand in Scotland for end up in a situation where there is


independence and the Tories decide to be a roadblock, then I think the


Tories will find themselves with any talk of a recovery, that recovery


will come to a juddering halt. You say you want a new campaign for


independence starting this summer. I am very unclear what this is. When


we launch that campaign in the summer we will be clear what form it


takes. I will unveil it in the summer. This is a point I am making


with a great degree of humility. Why do I think we need to have a new


initiative to persuade people about independence? Because as things


stood in the referendum we didn't do enough to persuade a majority. I


believe independence is the best each other Scotland. Is this a


campaign for another wreck -- referendum? This is a process of


listening to people and putting the arguments forward. In a democracy


that is the right thing to do. I believe in the strength of my case


but I also accept I have to persuade other people. I am per stash


prepared to do that patiently. I don't see what anybody would find


objectionable that. I was just asking what you are going to do.


There is a lot of unhappiness from the other parties. Is that something


you would be prepared to say, we will have another look at it? I


think Jackson Carlaw was wrong. I will put forward the arguments


because they are fundamentally sound. I recognise that we have work


to do to address the concerns that some parents have about this. I


think some of these concerns are unfounded and they have to make sure


think some of these concerns are we address those concerns. Why not


do what you did on some legal issues in the last Parliament? We will put


this to one side and start another way of doing it. I believe it is the


right way of doing it and I can point to the fact it is a policy


that is tried and tested. It has been in operation in for local


council areas for some time. It is a policy that is tried and tested and


think it is right. Nicola Sturgeon, thank you very much.


"Self immolation for dummies", was how one former MP described


the election platform on which Scottish Labour campaigned.


Most in the Scottish party are maintaining public loyalty


and rallying round Kezia Dugdale, arguing she needs more time.


But there's no doubt that their performance


on Thursday night was little short of a disaster.


Squeezed between the SNP and the Tories, the party


was reduced to twenty four MSPs and pushed into third place


James Kelly who was re-elected on the Glasgow list,


said he believed they had fought an energetic campaign focused


on the protection of public services and how to fund them.


If we are honest about it it was a disappointing result for the Labour


Party. We have two face up to the circumstances we are in. But you


Party. We have two face up to the were pretty confident he would still


be the main opposition party. Yes but the reality is that is a


fundamental challenge we have is Labour Party and it is a widespread


one and no matter what we said I don't think the people of Scotland


at this moment are ready and willing to listen to us. That is a challenge


for the party going forward. Should it go forward and the care they are


the deal? Definitely. She is a confident and able leader. I think


she deserves the time to take the party forward. You might believe


that but the trouble is the Scottish voters don't. It is difficult to say


that. The challenge we got the party is we should not allow our


opposition to define or problems for us. Secondly we have to look at the


big issues and that is not about personalities, this is a long-term


problem with the Labour Party has had since 2003. Can you really see


tested the deal leading the party into another election? Yes because


the reality is we have campaigned to be the opposition. That is all the


Conservatives can ever be. The only people who can defeat the SNP and


former government at some point in the future is the Scottish Labour


Party. She is the right person to do that wouldn't take us forward. The


key challenge for the Labour Party as we have defined that fundamental


cause. You can ask me today what the cause of the Labour Party is, I am a


passionate socialist and I want to fight injustice and eradicate


poverty but Scottish people want to know what it means for me. The


Tories have cause. The SNP has a cause which is independence. We have


to find that same passion and cause. A lot of people will say the problem


with Labour at the moment is what is the Labour Party for? And you have


in so many words said that you don't have a clue. No, of course I know


what the Labour Party is for. We have defined who we stand with but


the challenge is finding that caused to get people passionately behind


it. You are telling me to days after an election in which you got


walloped that you need to find a cause. You should have thought about


that awhile ago. My cause will always be to fight inequality and


create opportunity and fight against injustice but up against a situation


where we have Unionism versus nationalism that is a real difficult


question for the Labour Party. The reality is we are not comfortable


nationalists and we are not comfortable Unionists.


I genuinely believe... How do you sort the problem out? One thing


affecting you is this ambivalence towards independence which you


articulated, Kezia Dugdale, her attitude depended which interview


she was doing and people but that on what has become a decisive issue in


Scottish politics, Labour do not seem to know where they are. There


is no ambivalence, we are proud of our stance in the referendum and


campaigned... When your leader tells interviewer she might vote for


independence if Scotland voted to stay in the EU but Britain voted to


leave, your leader says she might vote for independence, no matter how


much afterwards she says she did not know what got into her, that is not


unambiguous. She has said we will not support any referendum in this


Parliament. She campaigned passionately and was campaigning for


the UK but the challenge we have is firstly we tried and perhaps too


early to move past the referendum, unless we transform our country I do


not think the electorate is there yet, the yes or no question... Let


me be clear, the biggest threat to the UK is not the Scottish National


Party, it is the Conservatives and the actions of David Cameron and the


Tories that putting the UK under threat. The trouble is Kezia Dugdale


came out with this line you came out with about how you moved too far


ahead, you are coming dangerously close to saying that Labour was


failed by the people of Scotland. Far from it, what I'm saying is more


difficult than that for Labour. This is a greater challenge for us, it


does not need tinkering at the edges of who individuals are, it is not


tinkering of politics but we have a fundamental in Scotland where the


people are not listening to us right now and we need to be listened to.


Ian Murray, your remaining MP in Scotland says part of the problem is


Jeremy Corbyn does not present a credible alternative to the Tories


as a government in Westminster and that is not helping Labour. We have


to present a credible alternative to the Tories in Westminster... I am a


fan of Jeremy Corbyn, I like the way he has come forward but we need to


do it in a credible way and demonstrate we can defeat the


Tories. Thank you. Well, we make no apology for looking


back at the week just past, as well as looking forward


to the Week Ahead. To help me do that


we've got two guests - Severin Carrell, who is the Scotland


editor at the Guardian, It seems odd starting with those who


lost most but I wanted to ask you about that can rent when he said the


problem with Labour is they're not comfortable nationally -- comment


and not comfortable unionists. Quite an extraordinary thing for someone


to say. It is the great conundrum and challenge Scottish Labour face


because Kezia Dugdale is adamant she has to lead an autonomous party that


talks to Scotland and fights on Scottish affairs for Scotland. At


the same time they have to portray themselves as part of a family of


parties across the UK. They are trapped by language and these two


great tensions between the large group of Labour politicians, David


Martin and others who say the Scottish Labour Party has do advance


home-rule agenda and be more positive about increased Scottish


powers, federal agenda but also those who want to focus more on


domestic day-to-day politics. It is a question of language. They are not


Unionists because they set up a devolved parliament, they have a


long long heritage of believing in campaigning for Scottish home rule


in the UK and they are not campaigning for Scottish home rule


nationalists so they do have a problem about how they frame what


they want to offer. They need to sort that out. You could presumably


try to seize home rule a own agenda by making it quite clear you do not


want to see the break up of the UK. The Lib Dems, that has been their


policy for decades. Why does Labour have such difficulty? This is as


much to do with the confidence voters have in the overall package,


look at the tax issue Kezia Dugdale was arguing forcefully for, it did


not make a jot of difference to the Labour Party vote in the final


outcome because people might like the product, they may not want the


manufacturer. They may not have enough trust in the person offering


the product and that'll be a problem for the constitutional issue. The


other Labour problem is what they were campaigning for was a solution


arrived at by all parties, the Smith commission was pretty much a


mutually agreed package that all the parties participated in, including


the SNP. The previous proposals and commission was a deal, a deeply


flawed proposition but it was arrived at through a process of


conversations, the Lib Dems and conservatives. The Labour Party have


the space now and the challenge, the absolute requirement to go out and


start strike out, do some blue sky thinking, new ground and fresh


territory. OK, the SNP won, they did not win out right. Nicola Sturgeon


seemed adamant that she still thought she could pretty much do


what she wanted. I think she still has the whip hand. That is the case.


She is correct to say at the end of the parliament they only had 64


MSPs, 63 now. The beauty of the position is they have two smaller


parties both which can get as near as dammit to a majority. The


Scottish Greens are the more natural part is that the SNP because part of


the challenge for Nicola Sturgeon is it is clear a lot of SNP voters gave


the Scottish Greens their second vote. That 5%, 5-point difference


between what the SNP got on the constituency vote and regionally


went to the Scottish Greens. So, one assumes many SNP activists and


voters would say Nicola you need to stick to pat -- speak to Patrick


press. The Lib Dems will want to come back as well. Willie Rennie


will want to assert his party position and role. What about


independence? Is what Nicola Sturgeon said about not ruling it


out, is as brave words or is there any possibility now of a second


referendum? It is diminished. We do not know what will happen with


Brexit and other things on issues around the Tory party or whatever


but as things stand, no, it has diminished. Nicola Haseler and


balancing act, her intentions. She has two keep our rank and file SNP


members and again 25% of the Scottish population voted for her on


Thursday, happy and confident they have a party that will push on the


big issue the SNP are most clearly aligned with and that is


independence. On the politics of it, the economics, they are looking


really really difficult and I cannot see anything other... Is a new


problem that the SNP have to keep happy all these people in the seats


they won in Glasgow who may agree more with Labour on tax but also how


a problem that the vote more with Labour on tax but also how


declining, it is not haemorrhaging but in nutritional areas they are


losing out to the Tories say they need to worry about these things.


There is a problem, the first minister was right to say we have 63


MSPs, 64 but if you look at the numbers in the constituency is the


SNP share of the vote fell proportionally in as many as 30 of


the 60 seats they won. They have not had a brilliant election by any


means. It has been very very good but not as successful as 2011. We


must leave it there. I'll be back at the


same time next week.


Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer present the latest political news and all the fallout on the local elections, including reaction from Labour's Caroline Flint and shadow energy minister Clive Lewis. Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson talks about her party's performance.

And what sort of hearing will Philip Green get from MPs investigating the collapse of BHS?

The Political Panel is made up of Julia Hartley-Brewer, Tom Newton Dunn of the Sun and Steve Richards of the IndependentPolitical Panel is made up of Julia Hartley-Brewer, Tom Newton Dunn of the Sun and Steve Richards of the Independent.

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