08/05/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


08/05/2016

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer present the latest political news and all the fallout on the local elections, including reaction from Caroline Flint and Clive Lewis.


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A thumping big win for Labour over the Conservatives in London -

:00:37.:00:42.

but what do Thursday's less impressive results across

:00:43.:00:44.

the country mean for Jeremy Corbyn's chances of getting to Number 10?

:00:45.:00:48.

We'll hear from both sides of the debate

:00:49.:00:50.

Here's one Tory riding high at least.

:00:51.:00:55.

Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson has managed to take

:00:56.:00:58.

the party once thought of as too toxic for Scotland

:00:59.:01:00.

And with the elections now over, it's back to the biggest political

:01:01.:01:08.

The Cabinet's heavyweights have been trading blows

:01:09.:01:11.

Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland...

:01:12.:01:16.

third term in office, but falls short of an

:01:17.:01:20.

We'll be speaking to Nicola Sturgeon live.

:01:21.:01:34.

giving media interviews this morning, I'm joined in the studio

:01:35.:01:39.

by the aristocracy, the upper crust, the royalty

:01:40.:01:41.

Tom Newton-Dunn, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Steve Richards.

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We're going to have a whip round after the show

:01:49.:01:50.

and get Steve a double-barrelled surname too.

:01:51.:01:53.

demonstration of modern democracy in the United Kingdom.

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There was good and bad for almost every political party

:02:08.:02:10.

across the nations and regions, and that's meant a feast

:02:11.:02:12.

of spinning, analysis, claim and counter-claim.

:02:13.:02:14.

Well today with almost all of the results now in -

:02:15.:02:16.

although we're still waiting for a few police and crime

:02:17.:02:18.

commissioners and one English council - we're going to try

:02:19.:02:21.

First here's Adam with his behind-the-scenes look at how

:02:22.:02:25.

It's election night, and my chance to annoy the big

:02:26.:02:30.

And this is the most depressing bit.

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Are you expecting to get a bit of a headache?

:02:39.:02:43.

It's a two day extravaganza of results.

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Will Jeremy Corbyn be staying up all night tonight?

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Jeremy doesn't go to bed on nights like this!

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We're old mates, we've been together 30 years on these different things

:02:56.:02:58.

So you're both proper election night geeks?

:02:59.:03:02.

The Labour telly addicts watched their party lose one council

:03:03.:03:07.

and a handful of councillors in England, not a lot,

:03:08.:03:11.

but not amazing either, as even Jeremy Corbyn admitted.

:03:12.:03:14.

We were getting predictions that Labour was going to lose councils,

:03:15.:03:18.

Although he celebrated winning two by-elections in pretty

:03:19.:03:24.

This is the first time I've ever had a desk at one of these things.

:03:25.:03:33.

The SNP got close to a majority in the Scottish Parliament,

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It is a vote of confidence in the record in government

:03:40.:03:51.

of the SNP, and it is a vote of trust in the SNP to lead

:03:52.:03:57.

Davidson, Ruth - Scottish and Conservative and Unionist...

:03:58.:04:04.

The biggest smile belongs to Ruth Davidson, leader

:04:05.:04:07.

of the Scottish Tories, who displaced Labour to become

:04:08.:04:11.

Have you been looking in the results in Scotland than just going whoa?

:04:12.:04:16.

Even if you look at some of the seats...

:04:17.:04:25.

We've just seen a few come through, the SNP have hold of one, but,

:04:26.:04:28.

actually, with huge swings from the SNP to the Conservatives.

:04:29.:04:31.

In Wales Ukip won their first seats on the Assembly,

:04:32.:04:34.

meaning a comeback for the former Tory MP Neil Hamilton,

:04:35.:04:38.

who managed to offend one Welshman within seconds.

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I'm thoroughly Welsh through and through,

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Here were are in virtually your hometown of Llanelli.

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Just one correction, Neil, of course it's not

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virtually my hometown - it is my hometown.

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So let's be very accurate about that, shall we?

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By lunchtime on Friday, us media types had realised that

:04:55.:05:00.

nothing especially dramatic had happened, so we all hotfooted

:05:01.:05:03.

it to City Hall to see Labour's Sadiq Khan elected

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Though most of the chat among the hacks in the press room

:05:07.:05:12.

was about the campaign run by his Tory rival, Zac Goldsmith,

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which was described as mean and divisive.

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I personally never went near central office in either

:05:23.:05:27.

of my campaigns, and I don't think Boris Johnson did either.

:05:28.:05:30.

Is that because they're not very good?

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That's because you are the candidates, it is

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your campaign and you should run it your way.

:05:34.:05:37.

And Labour nabbed another mayor, in Bristol, taking over

:05:38.:05:42.

The results from other campaigns around the UK are still

:05:43.:05:47.

It's not been super exciting, but we have got a nice view

:05:48.:05:52.

So with almost all the counting and number crunching across England,

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Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland now finished, let's take a look

:06:04.:06:05.

The SNP won the Scottish election, and will be the largest party

:06:06.:06:11.

But Nicola Sturgeon's party fell two short of a majority, and will govern

:06:12.:06:18.

Ruth Davidson's Conservatives overtook Labour to become the second

:06:19.:06:27.

Scottish Labour were pushed into 3rd place -

:06:28.:06:30.

with 24 seats, down 13 from the last Holyrood election.

:06:31.:06:34.

Labour remains the dominant party in Wales, winning 29

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And Leanne Wood's Plaid Cymru pipped the Conservatives 12 to 11 to become

:06:37.:06:43.

taking 7 seats in Wales - the first time they've sat

:06:44.:06:50.

In Northern Ireland, the DUP will once again

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They won 38 seats, with the next biggest party Sinn Fein on 28.

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Results in the English councils were seen as a major test

:07:01.:07:03.

And the party had a mixed night, winning the most councils -

:07:04.:07:09.

but losing 23 councillors since the last elections in 2012.

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There were two Westminster by-elections - with Labour

:07:14.:07:15.

holding the seats of Sheffield Brightside and Ogmore.

:07:16.:07:19.

And the Labour party won in London too -

:07:20.:07:22.

where Sadiq Khan beat Zac Goldsmith to the mayoralty,

:07:23.:07:24.

winning 57% of the vote on first preferences, to Goldsmith's 43%.

:07:25.:07:33.

The Green Party came third in the London elections -

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with their highest vote tally yet in the capital.

:07:36.:07:40.

Finally, voters in 40 police forces in England and Wales

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elected their new Police and Crime Commissioner.

:07:45.:07:47.

With the Tories and Labour triumphing over independents.

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With 36 of the 40 election results having declared, the Tories have won

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What does this mean, in the round, for Labour? It is the worst possible

:07:56.:08:13.

result for Labour, because it isn't good enough, and it isn't bad

:08:14.:08:17.

enough, which is the worst-case scenario for anyone who wants Labour

:08:18.:08:22.

to win in 2020. This is concerning the likes of Jeremy Corbyn and John

:08:23.:08:28.

McDonnell, but it is the point of being a political party, winning

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elections. Is it the worst of both worlds because they didn't do badly

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enough? To justify ousting Corbyn, but they didn't do well enough to

:08:38.:08:41.

suggest that Corbyn's people were right, and there was a groundswell

:08:42.:08:46.

of opinion moving to the far left. We saw the message coming out from

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the deputy leader on Friday morning, stand-down everyone, not yet. Do you

:08:52.:08:57.

agree? No. Even if these results had been much worse, as many expected it

:08:58.:09:02.

would be in the media and beyond, it still wouldn't have been the mood

:09:03.:09:06.

now. It is all being played out in public. Tom Watson, the deputy

:09:07.:09:11.

leader, gave an interview on Friday where he called ambiguously for

:09:12.:09:16.

patients. What he meant was, it is far too early to remove a leader who

:09:17.:09:21.

got an overwhelming mandate nine months ago in September. And he's

:09:22.:09:26.

right about that. You can't do it if the party membership overwhelmingly

:09:27.:09:31.

backs the leader. But what he meant by patients was, you don't have to

:09:32.:09:36.

translate it, there is a time-limit to this. Jeremy Corbyn needs more

:09:37.:09:39.

time to show he can put together a winning formula. If he fails in

:09:40.:09:45.

that, at some point, there will be he and others who will trigger some

:09:46.:09:50.

kind of challenge. So he's on a leasehold? Yes. He's not doing well

:09:51.:09:56.

enough to suggest he will win the next election. I don't agree with

:09:57.:10:00.

Julia that people are indifferent about winning elections. But party

:10:01.:10:04.

members who voted for Jeremy Corbyn are absolutely different to winning

:10:05.:10:09.

elections. I don't know. I assume that people who go out knocking on

:10:10.:10:14.

doors want to win. Sadiq Khan. That was the big result for Labour, and

:10:15.:10:19.

he won very comfortably. He won very strongly in the GLA as well. The

:10:20.:10:27.

Tories did very badly. We have this strange situation where, despite

:10:28.:10:30.

Sadiq Khan being the poster boy for the night, he still hasn't met

:10:31.:10:35.

Jeremy Corbyn. Is Mr Khan going to be an alternative Labour Party based

:10:36.:10:40.

around London City Hall? He tells us he's going to meet Jeremy Corbyn

:10:41.:10:45.

tomorrow. Corbyn said they were going to meet today. It is a real

:10:46.:10:50.

problem for Jeremy now because he is up against someone else with their

:10:51.:10:56.

own mandate, an enormous one. 1.3 million Londoners, together with

:10:57.:10:59.

their second preferences. A huge number. I think Sadiq Khan will use

:11:00.:11:05.

that to be the mouthpiece of the moderates, the soft left. I would

:11:06.:11:09.

suggest that if we were not looking at this through the prism of what it

:11:10.:11:13.

means for Mr Corbyn, we may be pointing out that the Tories didn't

:11:14.:11:19.

have a great night. They lost seats in England and Wales, they lost

:11:20.:11:22.

London and their share of the vote in London is now under 30%. They

:11:23.:11:28.

only got eight seats on the Greater London assembly. They are in their

:11:29.:11:33.

worst position since 2004, which was the second time we had a London

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election. It isn't brilliant for them. They would save the first year

:11:38.:11:42.

in government, do get this kind of reaction. Or worse ones. At what is

:11:43.:11:48.

overlooked in all this is that the last Labour government's post-97

:11:49.:11:53.

devolution proposals has transformed UK politics. In Scotland, the

:11:54.:11:56.

Conservatives are thrilled because they came second, but that wasn't

:11:57.:12:01.

about David Cameron, it was about Ruth Davidson, their leader there.

:12:02.:12:06.

In London, when people voted for Sadiq Khan, they were not thinking

:12:07.:12:12.

about Jeremy Corbyn. They were voting for him. Unintentionally,

:12:13.:12:17.

those devolution proposals have transformed UK politics, fracturing

:12:18.:12:21.

the UK parties, and will no longer allow any single party to make those

:12:22.:12:28.

sort of thousand seat gains that Blair did. But the Tories shouldn't

:12:29.:12:30.

be too complacent about this. It wasn't a great result. It wasn't,

:12:31.:12:39.

but who would expect it? The party is an absolute disarray, the deepest

:12:40.:12:44.

divisions. We have had a senior Cabinet Minister resign, criticising

:12:45.:12:47.

the Prime Minister and the Chancellor. If they did well this

:12:48.:12:51.

time, I would be surprised. So the Tories should have done worse? They

:12:52.:12:57.

should. I would disagree with your hypothesis to begin with, because

:12:58.:13:01.

they are, in some parts of this country, making remarkable progress,

:13:02.:13:05.

like Scotland. They could have lost seats. We know the Ruth Davidson

:13:06.:13:13.

story. If David Cameron can show his own party he's still a winner, six

:13:14.:13:17.

years into government, I would suggest he is pretty safe

:13:18.:13:22.

post-referendum. Well, that is our panel's verdict.

:13:23.:13:25.

So the high point for the Conservatives this week

:13:26.:13:27.

was undoubtedly in Scotland, where a party once known

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as the toxic Tories has become Ruth Davidson's Conservatives,

:13:30.:13:31.

replacing Labour as Scotland's second party and becoming

:13:32.:13:33.

the official opposition to the SNP at Holyrood.

:13:34.:13:35.

Ruth Davidson successfully positioned herself as the only

:13:36.:13:37.

person capable of standing up to Nicola Sturgeon over independence

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This morning Nicola Sturgeon says "bring it on2.

:13:40.:13:43.

Well we can speak now to Ruth Davidson, she joins us

:13:44.:13:46.

Good morning. Are the Scottish Conservatives now quite separate

:13:47.:13:58.

from the Tories? There was no appearance in your campaign from

:13:59.:14:06.

ministers in Westminster. But our campaign was launched in March?

:14:07.:14:11.

Other than that, did anybody come up to campaign for you? This was not

:14:12.:14:17.

about London. It is a sophisticated electorate in Scotland. People knew

:14:18.:14:21.

what they were voting for. This wasn't about who would be Prime

:14:22.:14:26.

Minister. This was about who would be the First Minister of Scotland,

:14:27.:14:30.

and who would be the Leader of the Opposition in Scotland. I made a

:14:31.:14:33.

very clear campaign of what I would do if I were to be the Leader of the

:14:34.:14:39.

Opposition, how I would hold the SNP to account, how I would say no to a

:14:40.:14:44.

second independence referendum, and how I would concentrate on the

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things that matter to ordinary Scots. Let's not go over the

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campaign again! I could probably say those lines in my sleep! In what

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ways to you now regard yourself as distinctive and different from the

:14:59.:14:59.

English Tories? Since I took over as leader I was

:15:00.:15:09.

the first leader in Scotland to be the leader of the entire party in

:15:10.:15:12.

Scotland. In terms of fundraising, Pelissie... What made you different?

:15:13.:15:21.

You had seen me takes on different policy decisions from my colleagues

:15:22.:15:26.

down south, if you compare the manifestos you will see differences,

:15:27.:15:32.

for one example, the right to buy for housing association houses. We

:15:33.:15:35.

don't think that is appropriate for the housing market in Scotland. How

:15:36.:15:38.

colleagues did down south. There is a distinct difference that. I wonder

:15:39.:15:45.

if it was a Scottish Conservative idea or not. The title was Ruth

:15:46.:15:54.

Davidson, a strong opposition. It did say Scottish Conservatives twice

:15:55.:15:57.

on the front cover. And multiply many times inside. In the Times, the

:15:58.:16:03.

roof, the whole truth and nothing but the roof. You created a new Tory

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brand. -- Ruth the. We don't fight just as conservatives

:16:09.:16:19.

in Scotland but conservatives in the Unionist party. The echoes of the

:16:20.:16:22.

Unionist party played quite loud in this election was that they were

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looking for people who would unequivocally stand up for the

:16:26.:16:29.

decision we made just 20 months ago. I think that was an area we fought

:16:30.:16:33.

strongly on now we have had some success. While I recognise a win for

:16:34.:16:37.

the Scottish National party, they are now in a third term of

:16:38.:16:42.

government, and I congratulated the First Minister, what was really

:16:43.:16:45.

significant about the result is we managed to stop them having a

:16:46.:16:49.

majority. They slipped back. This idea that they didn't put a clear

:16:50.:16:56.

mandate for a referendum in their manifesto, unlike in 2011, and now

:16:57.:16:59.

they don't even have a majority, that takes the second referendum off

:17:00.:17:04.

the table for five years and give Scotland's stability. You say a

:17:05.:17:08.

second referendum is off the cards and I understand the reasons why. I

:17:09.:17:12.

suggest that means unionists in the rest of the UK you would like to

:17:13.:17:16.

back Brexit can now do so without the fear of the second independence

:17:17.:17:21.

referendum? I argued all through this campaign irrespective of what

:17:22.:17:24.

happens with a referendum on Europe, that is not trigger point for a

:17:25.:17:31.

second referendum. I haven't heard anyone in the SNP argued

:17:32.:17:34.

successfully if there are was a Brexit... It is important we stay

:17:35.:17:42.

part of the union in which we export so many goods and services. I have

:17:43.:17:46.

yet to have anyone in the SNP explain it. But I look forward in

:17:47.:17:52.

the coming weeks to hear them make the argument for that. Last time the

:17:53.:18:00.

SNP were a majority government the Scottish Tories gave them crucial

:18:01.:18:03.

support on budget votes. Can you see us of doing that again? I think

:18:04.:18:09.

times move on. The SNP is no longer led by Alex Salmond... We know that.

:18:10.:18:17.

I think we will be robust. I will seek to put forward alternatives. I

:18:18.:18:22.

want to be as positive as I can be, not just crudely and blocking and

:18:23.:18:25.

questioning, although all of that is important. The debate we haven't had

:18:26.:18:29.

in Scotland for the last five years, but I want to put forward

:18:30.:18:32.

alternatives. One area I think we can make common cause is reforming

:18:33.:18:36.

education, it is a disgrace our school performances have gone back

:18:37.:18:40.

in Scotland in recent years. We used to have the best education system

:18:41.:18:52.

anywhere in the world. That is no longer the case. There is a lot I

:18:53.:18:55.

can do to try and bring the SNP onto our ground. I managed in the last

:18:56.:18:58.

parliament coming from third, in terms of school testing and money

:18:59.:19:00.

not just being handed to local authorities, I think we got a wink,

:19:01.:19:03.

teach first. There are real areas I think we can help the debate in

:19:04.:19:06.

Scotland and put forward is positive or turn at its. You shouldn't

:19:07.:19:10.

overplay your part. The SNP is still the dominant party in Holyrood, you

:19:11.:19:14.

are second, but all the other opposition parties are to the left

:19:15.:19:18.

of you. You're still a minority voice and won't be able to count on

:19:19.:19:22.

the opposition, other opposition parties ganging up on your side? We

:19:23.:19:27.

are a hugely important voice precisely because of the other side

:19:28.:19:35.

in voices you have identified. The First Minister, like the Prime

:19:36.:19:37.

Minister has competing and conflicting areas of interest: how

:19:38.:19:40.

one way or another. You are right to say Nicola Sturgeon has that she

:19:41.:19:43.

wants to make Scotland the highest in the UK. The other parties are

:19:44.:19:48.

trying to drag a further left, taking more money out of the pocket

:19:49.:19:53.

of ordinary working Scots. Our voice is crucial to pull her back to the

:19:54.:19:56.

centre, saying that is not the way to look after the Beeb all working

:19:57.:20:00.

hard and deserve a break in Scotland but also not the way to look after a

:20:01.:20:05.

Scottish economy. Last month's figures, 20,000 rise in unemployment

:20:06.:20:11.

in the UK, most of which came from Scotland. Our economic growth is a

:20:12.:20:15.

fraction of the rest of the UK. We need to become a more competitive

:20:16.:20:18.

country. That is an odd and I can make very strongly. Let me ask you

:20:19.:20:22.

this, when you look at the huge powers that have been devolved

:20:23.:20:27.

Scotland, and more on their way over schools, education, hospitals,

:20:28.:20:30.

health, transport and now a chunk of tax as well, is it ever conceivable

:20:31.:20:37.

that a Scottish MP from a Scottish constituency could ever again be

:20:38.:20:41.

Prime Minister of the United given that they would have no

:20:42.:20:45.

responsibility for so many things that affect the rest of the UK? Of

:20:46.:20:51.

course. Typically in the last Labour government you had a health minister

:20:52.:20:55.

who came from Lanarkshire in John Reid you had a chance of that came

:20:56.:21:02.

from Edinburgh. Is that conceivable again, that you could have a Home

:21:03.:21:07.

Secretary from a Scottish constituency, where everything on

:21:08.:21:12.

the home front is essentially devolved to Scotland? It was

:21:13.:21:14.

devolved at the time it was being taken over by John Reid. I know he

:21:15.:21:19.

played Parliamentary bingo and got a lot of big jobs. If you have English

:21:20.:21:25.

votes for English laws, a Scottish Prime Minister wouldn't even get to

:21:26.:21:31.

vote on his own policies. Andrew, you and I have talked about this

:21:32.:21:36.

many times. You saw our Strathclyde commission report, the basis that

:21:37.:21:39.

the Smith commission, the devolution of all these powers on one of the

:21:40.:21:44.

key aspects of that, looking at great detail with constitutional

:21:45.:21:48.

expert, was to ensure it wouldn't divest Scotland away from the rest

:21:49.:21:52.

of the UK. I don't think it does. In terms of all of the big jobs, I

:21:53.:21:57.

think you will see another Scottish Prime Minister, or from Wales or

:21:58.:22:02.

Northern Ireland. Talent will out. Do you think you've Zac Goldsmith

:22:03.:22:04.

bought the kind of campaign you fought in Scotland the Conservatives

:22:05.:22:13.

might have held on to the mayor? I don't qualify to talk about that,

:22:14.:22:16.

I've only been to London once this year. I knew I had a job to deliver

:22:17.:22:21.

here in Scotland. Even though I am a political geek I didn't watch the

:22:22.:22:25.

London mayoral race that closely I had a job to do the. Thank you.

:22:26.:22:29.

So Labour ended the week with a big result to feel cheerful about thanks

:22:30.:22:32.

to Sadiq Khan's thumping win over Zac Goldsmith to become

:22:33.:22:34.

The numeric macro has used his big job in office to reach out beyond

:22:35.:22:44.

the activists, which sounds like criticism of Jeremy Corbyn. He was

:22:45.:22:45.

talking to Andrew Marr earlier. We in Labour, our mission is to

:22:46.:22:51.

improve people's lives, and change We only do that

:22:52.:22:53.

by winning elections, by having a mandate

:22:54.:22:56.

to improve people's lives. What are the challenges

:22:57.:22:58.

facing Londoners? How do you tackle

:22:59.:23:00.

the housing crisis? How do you ensure we have a modern

:23:01.:23:01.

and affordable transport system? How do young people get

:23:02.:23:04.

the skills of tomorrow? We only do that by speaking to those

:23:05.:23:06.

people who previously By speaking to Tory voters,

:23:07.:23:12.

to those outside of our tent. And my point is, we've got to

:23:13.:23:16.

stop talking about ourselves. Well, to discuss this we're joined

:23:17.:23:18.

from Leeds by Caroline Flint, she was of course a former minister

:23:19.:23:22.

and was in Ed Miliband's Welcome back to the programme

:23:23.:23:33.

Caroline Flint. Let me put Sadiq Khan's quote to you. So-called

:23:34.:23:36.

natural Labour voters alone will never be enough to win a general

:23:37.:23:40.

election. Have you seen any progress from Thursday's results that Jeremy

:23:41.:23:45.

Corbyn's Labour Party is making progress in appealing to beyond the

:23:46.:23:50.

faithful? We need to make a lot more progress, Andrew. Although we had a

:23:51.:23:54.

fantastic result in London with Sadiq Khan, and I have to say the

:23:55.:23:58.

Tory campaign was both shameful and disgusting. We won in Bristol with

:23:59.:24:03.

Marvin and held onto councils like Crawley, Southampton and Redditch

:24:04.:24:06.

and Hastings, where I have been many times. It is not enough. We have to

:24:07.:24:11.

show that we are a party that is competitively challenging the

:24:12.:24:15.

government. That is why, as Sadiq said in his interview in the

:24:16.:24:19.

Observer today, we have to reach out beyond the big cities and reach out

:24:20.:24:23.

to those people who voted Conservative to vote Labour. Then we

:24:24.:24:27.

can have big politics for a big election and when it. What you say

:24:28.:24:31.

to John McDonnell, been a bit too in your party, saying I think we are on

:24:32.:24:36.

a steady course for victory in 2020. We are laying the foundations for

:24:37.:24:41.

that long haul victory in 2020. Is he right or wrong? I believe in

:24:42.:24:45.

honest straight talking politics. John McDonnell said in the run-up to

:24:46.:24:49.

these elections, we are looking to hang on. Looking to hang on isn't

:24:50.:24:54.

enough. This is the worst result for an opposition party after a general

:24:55.:24:59.

election in 30th. The year after Michael foot was elected we gained

:25:00.:25:04.

1000 council seats. Tony Blair 1800, Ed Miliband over 800. We actually

:25:05.:25:10.

had a loss of 28. In fact, the Tories, when you look at directly

:25:11.:25:14.

contested elections, gained three. It doesn't take away from the hard

:25:15.:25:20.

work on the ground by Labour councillors, Parliamentary

:25:21.:25:21.

candidates and members in these elections, but we need to be making

:25:22.:25:26.

far more inroads to be within an opportunity to win in 2020. That is

:25:27.:25:31.

the challenge for Jeremy. He deserves the right to lead, won the

:25:32.:25:35.

election, but he has to show, what have the loan from these elections?

:25:36.:25:39.

Will he talked people like Sadiq Khan to think about how we broaden

:25:40.:25:43.

our appeal so we can be in a very strong position, 2020. How long has

:25:44.:25:48.

it got to learn these lessons? Our members were only elected in

:25:49.:25:52.

September last year. I said he won on a huge mandate. He has not only

:25:53.:25:57.

won the right to be leader, he is the leader and our members believe

:25:58.:26:00.

Labour leaders should have the time to prove themselves. But, you know

:26:01.:26:04.

we know when the election is going to be, that is something relatively

:26:05.:26:08.

new to our politics in Britain. We also know this election we have to

:26:09.:26:13.

be honest about what the positive aspects and also about what didn't

:26:14.:26:15.

work and where we need to gain ground. How long have you got?

:26:16.:26:20.

People will be looking to hear from Jeremy what he's run and how he will

:26:21.:26:24.

take us forward and they will be looking... We have elections next

:26:25.:26:27.

year and the year after, but we have to ask ourselves is a party. I think

:26:28.:26:31.

this is a really big task for Jeremy Tilse. We are having a debate about

:26:32.:26:35.

what is the Labour Party for? We have to decide, are we a party of

:26:36.:26:40.

protest or a mainstream, democratic socialist party which is

:26:41.:26:43.

competitively challenging for government? If we are the latter,

:26:44.:26:47.

which we should be, we need to have the politics and the leadership to

:26:48.:26:52.

actually talk about that much, much more and take us board. That is

:26:53.:26:56.

really important for all of us. We have to ask ourselves is well, we

:26:57.:27:01.

have ten years of opposition here. We don't need another five on top of

:27:02.:27:07.

that. John McDonnell thinks you begrudge things. He says, for

:27:08.:27:11.

goodness sake get behind the leader, it is time to put up or shut up. I

:27:12.:27:15.

am someone who loves the Labour Party. I joined in 1979, I know what

:27:16.:27:25.

it's like... Put up or shut up? I am putting up. I put up in the House of

:27:26.:27:29.

Commons, where I am working with John McDonnell's team on tax

:27:30.:27:33.

transparency measures. We have a Tory party that should be absolutely

:27:34.:27:37.

on the ropes. A jet measures they had to drop on tax credits, Sunday

:27:38.:27:42.

trading they have had to drop, and I knew turned since the last general

:27:43.:27:46.

election. The education policy in tatters, the Panama papers, it goes

:27:47.:27:49.

election. The education policy in on and on. The truth is we need to

:27:50.:27:55.

be making sure that the public know about that and we have an

:27:56.:27:59.

alternative to that. At the moment, despite all those issues facing the

:28:00.:28:03.

Tory party, we didn't make as much progress as we showed. Let's be

:28:04.:28:07.

honest about these results, let's be honest about we need to reach out

:28:08.:28:11.

beyond our core vote, just as Sadiq Khan said. I hope John McDonnell

:28:12.:28:15.

will back me on that. Lets see if we can continue with this honesty.

:28:16.:28:20.

Given Scotland is now effectively a no go area for Labour, how could you

:28:21.:28:26.

ever hope to win the 2020 election on England alone? You would need a

:28:27.:28:32.

13 point lead, a bigger lead than Tony Blair had. That is just not

:28:33.:28:37.

conceivable. It is a massive challenge, Andrew. In Scotland are

:28:38.:28:41.

very disappointing night for Scotland. I think how Scottish

:28:42.:28:46.

friends all know that the way back for Labour will take some time. I

:28:47.:28:50.

wouldn't blame Jeremy Corbyn for what happened in Scotland either.

:28:51.:28:54.

You are right. My understanding is if we don't make the sort of

:28:55.:28:59.

comeback we need to in Scotland, in the numbers were used to be able to

:29:00.:29:04.

rely on, we need to gain something like 100 seats, 100 seats in England

:29:05.:29:08.

to have a majority. We need to have that sort of talking within the

:29:09.:29:14.

party. Activists realise protests in themselves will not be enough.

:29:15.:29:17.

Labour votes won't be enough and I'm looking to Jeremy Corbyn to provide

:29:18.:29:18.

the leadership that. A final question. What you say to

:29:19.:29:29.

several Tory MPs who have said to me, and I quote, Mr Corbyn's

:29:30.:29:33.

survival is the single most important thing for Tories for 2020?

:29:34.:29:39.

If we are not winning elections, they will say that. In many

:29:40.:29:44.

respects, the Tories were probably relatively relieved. Despite the

:29:45.:29:49.

shameful campaign they ran in London, given everything that's been

:29:50.:29:53.

going on in government in the last eight months, they should be quite

:29:54.:29:58.

relieved in terms of the result. We need to show them that Jeremy can

:29:59.:30:02.

stand up and face those criticisms, and the way he does that is by

:30:03.:30:07.

reaching out, as Sadiq Khan has done, as have many councils across

:30:08.:30:10.

the country in keeping their seats, and do the right thing for Labour.

:30:11.:30:15.

We need to move on, Caroline. Thank you.

:30:16.:30:17.

So that's the view of one former member of the Labour frontbench -

:30:18.:30:20.

we're joined now by the current shadow energy minister Clive Lewis,

:30:21.:30:23.

he's in our Norwich studio - welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:30:24.:30:25.

Morning, Andrew. Caroline Flint was saying that George Osborne's latest

:30:26.:30:33.

budget is in ruins, the Tories are tearing themselves apart over

:30:34.:30:36.

Europe, Iain Duncan Smith resigned because of what the government is

:30:37.:30:41.

doing to the working poor. The best Mr Corbyn could say was, we hung on.

:30:42.:30:47.

Is that good enough? Let's have a look at the focus of the media to --

:30:48.:30:54.

the media and the punditry. It was issued in the Labour Party that was

:30:55.:30:59.

the core focus for you guys. You brought that on yourselves. The

:31:00.:31:05.

bottom line is, at the start of your programme, you began that the

:31:06.:31:08.

results of the Labour Party, when actually, we were up 2% in the

:31:09.:31:12.

national share vote and the Tories were down 5%. Yet you in your

:31:13.:31:17.

commentators started on how it was a result for Labour. I'm not saying it

:31:18.:31:21.

was anything to shout about. But let's look at the results. You need

:31:22.:31:27.

13 points to win, so I would suggest that one or two points is neither

:31:28.:31:30.

here nor there was yellow Caroline Flint hit the nail on the head in

:31:31.:31:35.

that we have a massive task in front of us. But infighting is not the way

:31:36.:31:40.

forward. That is not going to help us achieve victory in 2020. We all

:31:41.:31:45.

know it is a massive uphill struggle. We need to think how we

:31:46.:31:48.

can make the best effort to win in 2020, and that is what the next few

:31:49.:31:55.

weeks and months need to be about. I agree with with so much of what

:31:56.:31:59.

Sadiq Khan said in his interview. Why doesn't Jeremy Corbyn meet with

:32:00.:32:06.

him? I think he will. But he won the capital city, by 14 points. It was

:32:07.:32:12.

an incredible victory, the first Muslim leader of a major city in

:32:13.:32:18.

Europe. And Mr Corbyn, we haven't seen him anywhere near him yet. It

:32:19.:32:24.

is a fantastic victory. Sadiq Khan nominated Jeremy. He didn't vote for

:32:25.:32:28.

him, which is a brilliantly principled position. Corbyn and Khan

:32:29.:32:34.

are comrades and good friends. They have a lot to learn from each other.

:32:35.:32:43.

Sadiq Khan won because he was with Jeremy Corbyn. All the people in

:32:44.:32:47.

London who are supporting the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn and

:32:48.:32:52.

reaching out. I am sure that Sadiq and Jeremy will meet in the near

:32:53.:32:59.

future. It is certainly unusual. Caroline Flint has just told us that

:33:00.:33:02.

the Conservatives should be happy and relieved by Thursday's results.

:33:03.:33:08.

I don't think they should. In Exeter they lost four seats. In Ipswich,

:33:09.:33:13.

there were seats we didn't even win in 97. Their share of the vote is

:33:14.:33:18.

down 5%. They didn't make the games expected in Wales. I don't think it

:33:19.:33:23.

is a fantastic result for them at all. I expect the Conservatives will

:33:24.:33:33.

try to turn the focus back on to Labour, but I don't think they've

:33:34.:33:36.

got anything to crow about either at the moment. What do you say to Ian

:33:37.:33:39.

Murray, the Scottish Secretary, the only Labour MP in Scotland. He says,

:33:40.:33:40.

Murray, the Scottish Secretary, the I don't think the public see the UK

:33:41.:33:44.

Labour Party led by Jeremy Corbyn as being a credible party of future

:33:45.:33:51.

government in 2020. I listened to the whole interview, and I respect

:33:52.:33:56.

Ian Murray great real. I heard his statement. I think he was saying,

:33:57.:34:01.

basically, where we are as a party at the moment isn't good enough. I

:34:02.:34:05.

don't think you'll find anyone in the Labour Party who would disagree

:34:06.:34:10.

with that. We need to move forward and consolidate. These results were

:34:11.:34:14.

not the disaster that you and the punditry were predicting. We were

:34:15.:34:19.

told 150 or 200 seats lost -- would be lost. We were told Jeremy Corbyn

:34:20.:34:25.

wouldn't win, and then he won with a landslide. We won -- we heard that

:34:26.:34:30.

the old by-election would be a disaster. And he won. I think the

:34:31.:34:36.

thing to think about now is that politics is in flux. In the US, we

:34:37.:34:46.

have a socialist running Hillary Clinton to the wire, but then you

:34:47.:34:50.

have Donald Trump standing as well. People are concerned and angry, and

:34:51.:34:54.

things are changing, and the punditry needs to take that into

:34:55.:34:58.

account and reflect that things are changing. We will take that into

:34:59.:35:04.

account. I never use the word disaster to talk about Labour's

:35:05.:35:09.

performance on Thursday. Let's stick with that. I put to you that surely

:35:10.:35:15.

the real lesson from Scotland is this - if you continue to attack

:35:16.:35:20.

north of the border, as you have been, you need to do better in

:35:21.:35:26.

England than even Tony Blair did in 97, and that, I put to you, is

:35:27.:35:32.

frankly fantasy. Let's look at Scotland. It was a very difficult

:35:33.:35:36.

night for us. I would rather you looked at England and tell me how

:35:37.:35:38.

you will do well. This is the issue you will do well. This is the issue

:35:39.:35:45.

- what we have done in this weeks election is consolidate our vote in

:35:46.:35:51.

2015 and improve it by 2%. We now need to move forward. We now have

:35:52.:35:57.

next to no chance of winning in 2020 if we remain a divided house, and

:35:58.:36:01.

that is what has happened at the moment. What we can all learn from

:36:02.:36:06.

Sadiq was explaining is -- in his interview is that we have

:36:07.:36:11.

consolidated our vote in 2015 and improved it, and now we have to move

:36:12.:36:16.

on small businesses, to those who are affected by the government cuts

:36:17.:36:21.

on public services. We need to reach out to people who have voted

:36:22.:36:25.

Conservative in the past. I think it is a message that Jeremy Corbyn has

:36:26.:36:30.

two and will listen to. But the key thing is that a house divided has no

:36:31.:36:36.

chance of being able to do that in 2020. Thank you for joining us.

:36:37.:36:39.

It's just gone 11.35am - you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:36:40.:36:43.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:36:44.:36:45.

we're going to be talking about a big week ahead

:36:46.:36:50.

First, though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

:36:51.:37:18.

With enthusiasm and confidence clearly and firmly behind us, we

:37:19.:37:26.

will collectively get on with the job of delivering for the people of

:37:27.:37:28.

our country. Kezia Dugdale put a brave face on it

:37:29.:37:42.

as the party vote collapsed - can Scottish Labour rebuild

:37:43.:37:45.

or it is a spent force? Asked before the election

:37:46.:37:48.

if the Conservatives would take overtake Labour and become the main

:37:49.:37:50.

opposition, the Tory leader Ruth Davidson

:37:51.:37:52.

responded unequivocally yes. Well, the rest, as

:37:53.:37:53.

they say, is history. Just how did the Conservatives

:37:54.:37:55.

detoxify their brand, win seats for a raft of new MSPs

:37:56.:37:57.

and revitalise the party's fortunes Yesterday Ruth Davidson acknowledged

:37:58.:38:00.

the role played by a coalition of blue collared workers who'd never

:38:01.:38:04.

been persuaded to back She's promised to hold

:38:05.:38:06.

the SNP to account. Earlier I spoke to the party's

:38:07.:38:10.

deputy leader, Jackson Carlaw, Well, Nicola Sturgeon said she has

:38:11.:38:28.

an unequivocal mandate to implement her manifesto. Doshi? Unequivocal is

:38:29.:38:34.

to overstate it. It reminds me of the politics of assertion which

:38:35.:38:39.

worked with a fork in the last government. There is no doubt in our

:38:40.:38:43.

minds the preferred government of Scotland is one run by Nicola

:38:44.:38:47.

Sturgeon and the SNP. But the public have a way of correcting things and

:38:48.:38:51.

I think they were slightly uncomfortable with the overbearing

:38:52.:38:55.

arrogance of the last SNP government and decided they wanted a proper

:38:56.:39:00.

opposition to clip the wings and see a government deposed. Nationalists

:39:01.:39:04.

said we need an opposition and government. That is the job they

:39:05.:39:09.

have entrusted to the Scottish Conservatives. Nicola Sturgeon says

:39:10.:39:14.

Ruth Davidson is overreaching when she says the SNP have no mandate for

:39:15.:39:20.

a second independence referendum. Issue bite? Again, she is asserting

:39:21.:39:23.

a position which is defied by the results. The key platform on which

:39:24.:39:29.

the Scottish Conservatives and Ruth stood was not just the strong

:39:30.:39:34.

opposition but no to a second referendum, no other party was

:39:35.:39:38.

unequivocal about that. We were. A government that no longer has a

:39:39.:39:41.

majority, Nicola Sturgeon in the last week of the campaign, it was

:39:42.:39:46.

the eye word. I will decide I will review, I will look at the opinion

:39:47.:39:51.

polls and to independence. I do not think she has the right to stand

:39:52.:39:57.

there and say it all about her. If you add in the greens there is a

:39:58.:40:01.

pro-independence majority parliament so should they decide collectively

:40:02.:40:05.

they want to push for another referendum, why did not have the

:40:06.:40:09.

right? It would be foolish to try, it was not in the manifesto, I do

:40:10.:40:13.

not think they have mandate and Scotland has made it clear it wants

:40:14.:40:17.

to see the government get on with governments and to put independence

:40:18.:40:21.

issue aside. The Scottish Conservatives have done that. It is

:40:22.:40:28.

not going to happen. You are saying what you think should happen, what

:40:29.:40:32.

is to stop them collectively come the greens and the SNP saying we

:40:33.:40:38.

have a majority, we will push for a second referendum and we have the

:40:39.:40:41.

right to do that because we have a majority. I know the problem with

:40:42.:40:47.

common sense it is it is not common. If the SNP has common sense it will

:40:48.:40:52.

recognise if it pushes on and persists with trying to put Scotland

:40:53.:40:55.

through another referendum it is going to come to grief. They need to

:40:56.:41:01.

demonstrate they can govern the country. Come to grief in what

:41:02.:41:06.

sense? At subsequent elections. That is -- stratification -- satisfaction

:41:07.:41:20.

was down. This was not in the manifesto. I do not think they have

:41:21.:41:25.

a mandate, Nicola Sturgeon wants to implement her manifesto in full,

:41:26.:41:28.

having a second referendum was not in the manifesto. Should they do it

:41:29.:41:35.

and they are asserting they may do it, should they do that, do you

:41:36.:41:38.

think the British government should it, should they do that, do you

:41:39.:41:42.

step in and say, sorry, you can't have that. You do not have the

:41:43.:41:47.

mandate. I do believe it will get to that point. I would not be unhappy

:41:48.:41:52.

if they did but I do not believe it will get to that point. I think we

:41:53.:41:57.

will see a parliament now with a strong opposition, not just from the

:41:58.:42:00.

Conservatives but other opposition parties with more teeth to change

:42:01.:42:05.

the agenda. We will move onto other issues. You say you will not be

:42:06.:42:11.

unhappy if did but that would give the Scottish Nationalists and

:42:12.:42:15.

everyone who supports independence the greatest cause for grievance

:42:16.:42:19.

they ever had. But it isn't going to happen! The focus is going to be on

:42:20.:42:24.

the other issues and the most immediate one is the legislation for

:42:25.:42:30.

which there is a natural majority against. Do you expect that to be

:42:31.:42:34.

one of the first things where you can challenge the unequivocal right

:42:35.:42:42.

of Nicola Sturgeon? Absolutely. We want to stop it. And you think you

:42:43.:42:49.

can? There was a natural majority across other parties that realise

:42:50.:42:53.

the concerns with the public, it became as the election moron a big

:42:54.:42:59.

issue on the doorsteps -- election war on. It is something many SNP

:43:00.:43:05.

people are wondering if they have done the right thing. That is where

:43:06.:43:17.

we will make a difference. Tax. Actually, you are the only

:43:18.:43:20.

opposition party that agrees with the SNP on the basic rate of tax so

:43:21.:43:25.

presumably you would be happy to help them get through their

:43:26.:43:29.

proposals on tax. Well, we have come into the parliament to be a party

:43:30.:43:32.

that will lead the opposition, we will look at the budget as a whole,

:43:33.:43:36.

we will not be looking at it piecemeal to see if there are any

:43:37.:43:42.

trinkets in there. When it comes to opposing rises in the basic rate of

:43:43.:43:46.

tax which the Lib Dems and greens and Labour want, you would stand by

:43:47.:43:53.

the SNP? We do not isolate the budget in that way taking votes on

:43:54.:43:57.

the individual pieces, we look at the budget as a whole. Unless the

:43:58.:44:03.

budget will restore the 152,000 college places and deliver on other

:44:04.:44:08.

key areas we supported then we will be there to oppose the government

:44:09.:44:11.

not to vote piecemeal for things we do not approve. Would you want in

:44:12.:44:16.

negotiations to demand the Scottish government George Osborne's proposal

:44:17.:44:24.

is implemented? The policy will be for the Scottish government to put

:44:25.:44:28.

forward its budget and we will look to see what they do. Our concern is

:44:29.:44:34.

to ensure overall tax in Scotland is no higher here than elsewhere in the

:44:35.:44:41.

UK. We think it is bad. We are conscious of the fact the proposals

:44:42.:44:46.

of the SNP will drag into higher rate tax all manner of people but I

:44:47.:44:49.

do not think were paying high tax five years ago who I do not think

:44:50.:44:55.

people regard as being rich. You could say to them this is what we

:44:56.:44:58.

people regard as being rich. You believe if you want us to support

:44:59.:45:03.

you, give us this. It is not a case of looking at individual tax policy

:45:04.:45:07.

and saying that leads us to support the budget. We will look at the

:45:08.:45:12.

budget in its entirety. We are not going to be standing there beating

:45:13.:45:15.

our chests saying the Tories are back. We'll be standing there saying

:45:16.:45:20.

with Davidsson's Conservatives have arrived and will look at the job of

:45:21.:45:24.

opposition in a completely different way to ensure there was a political

:45:25.:45:28.

opposition, a different centre of gravity in the parliament, a battle

:45:29.:45:32.

of ideas and that is the challenge is open to us if we are to respond

:45:33.:45:37.

to the confidence given to us by people to be the opposition in

:45:38.:45:39.

Scotland. Nine years in office,

:45:40.:45:42.

over a million votes, a third successive term in office

:45:43.:45:44.

and a personal mandate But, crucially, the party fell short

:45:45.:45:46.

of achieving an outright majority. The SNP has ruled out a formal

:45:47.:45:52.

coalition and will need to win support for its legislation

:45:53.:45:55.

by working with the other parties But yesterday Nicola Sturgeon warned

:45:56.:45:58.

the opposition that she has a "clear "and unequivocal" mandate

:45:59.:46:04.

to govern and they shouldn't In a moment, we will speak

:46:05.:46:06.

to Nicola Sturgeon. The party is also no stranger

:46:07.:46:16.

to minority government, 63 SNP MSPs, enough to give Nicola

:46:17.:46:28.

Sturgeon the personal mandate she wanted to stop she will be the new

:46:29.:46:36.

first minister. We pulled more votes than Labour and the Tories combined.

:46:37.:46:44.

We also had a clean sweet in six out of seven of Scotland's cities. 63

:46:45.:46:53.

MSPs is not enough to guarantee a majority at Holyrood and there will

:46:54.:46:57.

be no formal coalition. We are looking at a minority government.

:46:58.:47:02.

Because the SNP have no majority, they will have two reach out for

:47:03.:47:06.

support from other parties and have discussions in the parliament and

:47:07.:47:12.

hopefully open for people to see them. What happens when one party

:47:13.:47:17.

has all the power is that it tends to use the power to concentrate and

:47:18.:47:19.

get itself more power and that is to use the power to concentrate and

:47:20.:47:31.

anathema to democracy. We have been here before. The SNP formed a

:47:32.:47:38.

minority government nine years ago. In 2007 we had some of the most

:47:39.:47:42.

progressive environmental legislation on renewable targets set

:47:43.:47:45.

anywhere in the world. That was part down to the fact the parliament was

:47:46.:47:53.

more diverse as you could not get that with the government, back in

:47:54.:47:59.

2003 when we had the rainbow parliament, we had progressive

:48:00.:48:06.

legislation on tuition fees and free school meal at a slate of came out

:48:07.:48:12.

of those negotiations. But running a government when you are relying on

:48:13.:48:16.

doing deals with parties like the Greens is not always easy. This is

:48:17.:48:24.

the Scottish budget and it should be done better than this. The SNP has

:48:25.:48:29.

worked with conservatives in the past. Our support for that budget

:48:30.:48:37.

was conditional on three major areas of Conservative policy being

:48:38.:48:42.

delivered. A thousand extra police, big cuts in business rates for our

:48:43.:48:46.

smallest businesses and a new National drug strategy for Scotland.

:48:47.:48:51.

Sticking points in this parliament are likely to include the issues of

:48:52.:48:58.

fracking, tax rates, air passenger duty and SNP plans for a named

:48:59.:49:03.

person to look after every child. But for all the excitement of last

:49:04.:49:09.

Thursday night, there were 1.8 million Scots who chose not to vote,

:49:10.:49:14.

45% of the electorate. Some people tell us they do not care enough but

:49:15.:49:19.

when I did research with focus groups people do care a lot, about

:49:20.:49:23.

housing, where they live and each other, they do not think the

:49:24.:49:28.

political system is doing anything to make anything change in a way

:49:29.:49:35.

that is beneficial. So, how do we re-engage those people? You can't

:49:36.:49:39.

talk to them about big political issues at first, if you engage them

:49:40.:49:43.

about things they care about locally, in the town centre then you

:49:44.:49:47.

get onto the Y -- why it is not dealt with and explore the political

:49:48.:49:54.

problems. I think if we look at how we do local democracy and remake

:49:55.:49:57.

local democracy in a way that asks people what they care about and ask

:49:58.:50:02.

them to get involved in solving the problem, and giving them the power

:50:03.:50:05.

then I think you will build a stronger political system and

:50:06.:50:12.

democratic society. Things have changed in Scotland. A lot of people

:50:13.:50:17.

will be looking for what you could call the red rump. It turned up on

:50:18.:50:23.

Thursday in Shetland. This red rump swallow snapped by the fair Isle

:50:24.:50:25.

Bird Observatory. Joining me now is the First Minister

:50:26.:50:27.

and leader of the SNP, Congratulations! You said yesterday,

:50:28.:50:40.

you have won the election and I congratulate you. You talked about

:50:41.:50:45.

having an unequivocal mandate. That is the bit you do not have.

:50:46.:51:00.

We won the election comprehensively. In terms of the SNP as much strength

:51:01.:51:07.

there is no change. We ended the last parliament with 64 MSP 's and

:51:08.:51:14.

now we have 63. The relative strength of the opposition parties

:51:15.:51:20.

have changed. For opposition parties they will be questions for them

:51:21.:51:23.

about whether they want to align themselves more with a progressive

:51:24.:51:28.

left of centre government so I have feeling relaxed about the

:51:29.:51:30.

Parliamentary arithmetic. The SNP won the election. It is not an

:51:31.:51:40.

unequivocal mandate in like you don't have another right majority. I

:51:41.:51:48.

want to govern in an inclusive way because I think it's right to find

:51:49.:51:52.

common ground and build on it. I am not prepared given the scale of the

:51:53.:52:01.

SNP's mandate to allow opposition parties to undermine our ability to

:52:02.:52:06.

argument that manifesto. What you mean by that? I have a mandate to

:52:07.:52:09.

permit the manifesto and I'm going to do that I'd reaching out where I

:52:10.:52:13.

can because I think that's the right thing to do. You say you don't want

:52:14.:52:18.

them to undermine it but you will have to make compromises. Government

:52:19.:52:22.

is about trying to build alliances and I am going to do that and I'm

:52:23.:52:26.

also seeing clearly to the opposition parties I think they need

:52:27.:52:31.

to recognise the scale and the emphatic nature of the mandate the

:52:32.:52:34.

SNP has achieved. We were elected on a manifesto and as First Minister I

:52:35.:52:39.

am intending to implement that manifesto. But you will have to get

:52:40.:52:46.

agreement from others. Take tax, your proposals on the basic rate of

:52:47.:52:51.

tax, the Tories are the only opposition party which supported

:52:52.:52:54.

you. But the Tories don't support this on giving a tax cut to higher

:52:55.:52:59.

rate tax years. The Liberals and Labour will. That is the fundamental

:53:00.:53:07.

point I am making. The opposition parties, there will be rarer

:53:08.:53:10.

occasions when they will come together in a common position. But

:53:11.:53:17.

you just need the support of the Conservatives. We will put forward a

:53:18.:53:21.

budget and six are bought from across the Parliament. But the

:53:22.:53:26.

Conservatives are the only ones who agree with your basic policies. They

:53:27.:53:31.

don't agree with some of our basic policies on tax. He doesn't agree

:53:32.:53:35.

that a higher rate tax payers should be paying more. They don't agree

:53:36.:53:41.

with our basic proposition. But you know if you get your proposals on

:53:42.:53:44.

tax through and the Conservatives vote for you people will say hang on

:53:45.:53:51.

you slack Labour off for ages for being on the same platform and we

:53:52.:53:56.

are now back in a situation where an SNP government is getting its

:53:57.:54:00.

policies through with Tory support. I will put forward a budget based on

:54:01.:54:04.

a manifesto which secured the support of almost 50% of the

:54:05.:54:13.

Scottish publishing. Jackson Carlaw said we don't vote on budgets in

:54:14.:54:18.

terms of the individual aspects, Parliament vote on the totality of a

:54:19.:54:22.

budget. I will seek support for the totality of the budget. That is how

:54:23.:54:28.

I am going to govern, I am going to govern in a way that I think serves

:54:29.:54:32.

the interests of Scotland and I will ask opposition parties to support

:54:33.:54:34.

the interests of Scotland and I will us. I will seek areas of common

:54:35.:54:38.

ground but I am not going to be thwarted in my determination to

:54:39.:54:41.

govern in the interests of the country. Independence referendum.

:54:42.:54:43.

Can we put that on to bed for the country. Independence referendum.

:54:44.:54:49.

next five years? The position I put forward in the manifesto got the

:54:50.:54:52.

support of almost 50% of the population. I know the Tories by the

:54:53.:54:56.

standards had a good night on Thursday but we have to put it in

:54:57.:55:00.

context. They put forward the position and Jackson Carlaw said

:55:01.:55:03.

they were the only ones going in with an unequivocal position of

:55:04.:55:06.

saying no to an independence referendum -- referendum.

:55:07.:55:18.

Your manifesto was not an ambiguous. The Greens manifesto said they

:55:19.:55:25.

wanted a million people to sign up to a petition before they would

:55:26.:55:29.

support another referendum. The Scottish Parliament should have the

:55:30.:55:30.

support another referendum. The right to propose another referendum.

:55:31.:55:36.

What I acknowledged during the campaign is that those circumstances

:55:37.:55:42.

do not yet exist. Do you need a million strong petition? The point

:55:43.:55:46.

in going to make is that directly raised in the campaign that those of

:55:47.:55:50.

us who support independence have got work to do to address the issues

:55:51.:55:54.

that many people who could have backed the Yes campaign ultimately

:55:55.:55:58.

didn't. We have to address those issues. Talking about another

:55:59.:56:04.

referendum before we do that is putting the cart before the horse.

:56:05.:56:09.

The Greens have even less of a mandate for a referendum than you

:56:10.:56:12.

do. They said they wanted a million people to sign a petition. You are

:56:13.:56:20.

claiming that because of the Greens you have a majority in parliament.

:56:21.:56:27.

We have a majority of MSP supporting Scotland becoming independent. What

:56:28.:56:39.

I am also saying is that those of us who support independence have got a

:56:40.:56:41.

job to do to build the majority support not in parliament had in the

:56:42.:56:46.

country for independence because that will determine the question.

:56:47.:56:52.

Jackson Carlaw said he would not be unhappy if you keep going on about

:56:53.:56:55.

this and the British Government stepped in and said you are not

:56:56.:57:00.

having one. It might not suit the Tories or Jackson Carlaw David

:57:01.:57:03.

Cameron but we live in a democracy and I am entitled to make the case.

:57:04.:57:09.

The point here is a fundamental democratic point. My manifesto said

:57:10.:57:13.

the Scottish Parliament should have the right to propose a referendum if

:57:14.:57:17.

there is evidence that it is the preferred option of the majority of

:57:18.:57:20.

the Scottish people. If what Conservatives are saying, they would

:57:21.:57:26.

stand in a way of a clear majority, it is not me that's on a killer --

:57:27.:57:31.

collision course with the Scottish publishing it is the Tories. We have

:57:32.:57:37.

had referendums in Britain where there is clear -- clearly an issue.

:57:38.:57:47.

We've had a referendum. The way the opinion polls go, that is not the

:57:48.:57:52.

way British politics works. If we end up in a situation where there is

:57:53.:57:54.

clear demand in Scotland for end up in a situation where there is

:57:55.:57:59.

independence and the Tories decide to be a roadblock, then I think the

:58:00.:58:05.

Tories will find themselves with any talk of a recovery, that recovery

:58:06.:58:11.

will come to a juddering halt. You say you want a new campaign for

:58:12.:58:15.

independence starting this summer. I am very unclear what this is. When

:58:16.:58:23.

we launch that campaign in the summer we will be clear what form it

:58:24.:58:31.

takes. I will unveil it in the summer. This is a point I am making

:58:32.:58:38.

with a great degree of humility. Why do I think we need to have a new

:58:39.:58:44.

initiative to persuade people about independence? Because as things

:58:45.:58:48.

stood in the referendum we didn't do enough to persuade a majority. I

:58:49.:58:51.

believe independence is the best each other Scotland. Is this a

:58:52.:58:57.

campaign for another wreck -- referendum? This is a process of

:58:58.:59:11.

listening to people and putting the arguments forward. In a democracy

:59:12.:59:15.

that is the right thing to do. I believe in the strength of my case

:59:16.:59:18.

but I also accept I have to persuade other people. I am per stash

:59:19.:59:25.

prepared to do that patiently. I don't see what anybody would find

:59:26.:59:29.

objectionable that. I was just asking what you are going to do.

:59:30.:59:37.

There is a lot of unhappiness from the other parties. Is that something

:59:38.:59:42.

you would be prepared to say, we will have another look at it? I

:59:43.:59:54.

think Jackson Carlaw was wrong. I will put forward the arguments

:59:55.:59:59.

because they are fundamentally sound. I recognise that we have work

:00:00.:00:06.

to do to address the concerns that some parents have about this. I

:00:07.:00:17.

think some of these concerns are unfounded and they have to make sure

:00:18.:00:19.

think some of these concerns are we address those concerns. Why not

:00:20.:00:24.

do what you did on some legal issues in the last Parliament? We will put

:00:25.:00:31.

this to one side and start another way of doing it. I believe it is the

:00:32.:00:36.

right way of doing it and I can point to the fact it is a policy

:00:37.:00:39.

that is tried and tested. It has been in operation in for local

:00:40.:00:46.

council areas for some time. It is a policy that is tried and tested and

:00:47.:00:51.

think it is right. Nicola Sturgeon, thank you very much.

:00:52.:00:57.

"Self immolation for dummies", was how one former MP described

:00:58.:00:59.

the election platform on which Scottish Labour campaigned.

:01:00.:01:01.

Most in the Scottish party are maintaining public loyalty

:01:02.:01:03.

and rallying round Kezia Dugdale, arguing she needs more time.

:01:04.:01:06.

But there's no doubt that their performance

:01:07.:01:07.

on Thursday night was little short of a disaster.

:01:08.:01:10.

Squeezed between the SNP and the Tories, the party

:01:11.:01:12.

was reduced to twenty four MSPs and pushed into third place

:01:13.:01:14.

James Kelly who was re-elected on the Glasgow list,

:01:15.:01:18.

said he believed they had fought an energetic campaign focused

:01:19.:01:20.

on the protection of public services and how to fund them.

:01:21.:01:31.

If we are honest about it it was a disappointing result for the Labour

:01:32.:01:42.

Party. We have two face up to the circumstances we are in. But you

:01:43.:01:46.

Party. We have two face up to the were pretty confident he would still

:01:47.:01:49.

be the main opposition party. Yes but the reality is that is a

:01:50.:01:53.

fundamental challenge we have is Labour Party and it is a widespread

:01:54.:01:57.

one and no matter what we said I don't think the people of Scotland

:01:58.:02:00.

at this moment are ready and willing to listen to us. That is a challenge

:02:01.:02:05.

for the party going forward. Should it go forward and the care they are

:02:06.:02:12.

the deal? Definitely. She is a confident and able leader. I think

:02:13.:02:17.

she deserves the time to take the party forward. You might believe

:02:18.:02:22.

that but the trouble is the Scottish voters don't. It is difficult to say

:02:23.:02:27.

that. The challenge we got the party is we should not allow our

:02:28.:02:31.

opposition to define or problems for us. Secondly we have to look at the

:02:32.:02:38.

big issues and that is not about personalities, this is a long-term

:02:39.:02:42.

problem with the Labour Party has had since 2003. Can you really see

:02:43.:02:51.

tested the deal leading the party into another election? Yes because

:02:52.:03:00.

the reality is we have campaigned to be the opposition. That is all the

:03:01.:03:06.

Conservatives can ever be. The only people who can defeat the SNP and

:03:07.:03:10.

former government at some point in the future is the Scottish Labour

:03:11.:03:20.

Party. She is the right person to do that wouldn't take us forward. The

:03:21.:03:23.

key challenge for the Labour Party as we have defined that fundamental

:03:24.:03:27.

cause. You can ask me today what the cause of the Labour Party is, I am a

:03:28.:03:33.

passionate socialist and I want to fight injustice and eradicate

:03:34.:03:38.

poverty but Scottish people want to know what it means for me. The

:03:39.:03:45.

Tories have cause. The SNP has a cause which is independence. We have

:03:46.:03:55.

to find that same passion and cause. A lot of people will say the problem

:03:56.:04:02.

with Labour at the moment is what is the Labour Party for? And you have

:04:03.:04:08.

in so many words said that you don't have a clue. No, of course I know

:04:09.:04:15.

what the Labour Party is for. We have defined who we stand with but

:04:16.:04:19.

the challenge is finding that caused to get people passionately behind

:04:20.:04:26.

it. You are telling me to days after an election in which you got

:04:27.:04:31.

walloped that you need to find a cause. You should have thought about

:04:32.:04:37.

that awhile ago. My cause will always be to fight inequality and

:04:38.:04:40.

create opportunity and fight against injustice but up against a situation

:04:41.:04:46.

where we have Unionism versus nationalism that is a real difficult

:04:47.:04:50.

question for the Labour Party. The reality is we are not comfortable

:04:51.:04:53.

nationalists and we are not comfortable Unionists.

:04:54.:04:59.

I genuinely believe... How do you sort the problem out? One thing

:05:00.:05:10.

affecting you is this ambivalence towards independence which you

:05:11.:05:15.

articulated, Kezia Dugdale, her attitude depended which interview

:05:16.:05:22.

she was doing and people but that on what has become a decisive issue in

:05:23.:05:26.

Scottish politics, Labour do not seem to know where they are. There

:05:27.:05:31.

is no ambivalence, we are proud of our stance in the referendum and

:05:32.:05:37.

campaigned... When your leader tells interviewer she might vote for

:05:38.:05:41.

independence if Scotland voted to stay in the EU but Britain voted to

:05:42.:05:46.

leave, your leader says she might vote for independence, no matter how

:05:47.:05:50.

much afterwards she says she did not know what got into her, that is not

:05:51.:05:57.

unambiguous. She has said we will not support any referendum in this

:05:58.:06:02.

Parliament. She campaigned passionately and was campaigning for

:06:03.:06:08.

the UK but the challenge we have is firstly we tried and perhaps too

:06:09.:06:13.

early to move past the referendum, unless we transform our country I do

:06:14.:06:17.

not think the electorate is there yet, the yes or no question... Let

:06:18.:06:27.

me be clear, the biggest threat to the UK is not the Scottish National

:06:28.:06:30.

Party, it is the Conservatives and the actions of David Cameron and the

:06:31.:06:35.

Tories that putting the UK under threat. The trouble is Kezia Dugdale

:06:36.:06:40.

came out with this line you came out with about how you moved too far

:06:41.:06:43.

ahead, you are coming dangerously close to saying that Labour was

:06:44.:06:50.

failed by the people of Scotland. Far from it, what I'm saying is more

:06:51.:06:56.

difficult than that for Labour. This is a greater challenge for us, it

:06:57.:07:00.

does not need tinkering at the edges of who individuals are, it is not

:07:01.:07:07.

tinkering of politics but we have a fundamental in Scotland where the

:07:08.:07:11.

people are not listening to us right now and we need to be listened to.

:07:12.:07:17.

Ian Murray, your remaining MP in Scotland says part of the problem is

:07:18.:07:23.

Jeremy Corbyn does not present a credible alternative to the Tories

:07:24.:07:26.

as a government in Westminster and that is not helping Labour. We have

:07:27.:07:30.

to present a credible alternative to the Tories in Westminster... I am a

:07:31.:07:38.

fan of Jeremy Corbyn, I like the way he has come forward but we need to

:07:39.:07:41.

do it in a credible way and demonstrate we can defeat the

:07:42.:07:43.

Tories. Thank you. Well, we make no apology for looking

:07:44.:07:46.

back at the week just past, as well as looking forward

:07:47.:07:49.

to the Week Ahead. To help me do that

:07:50.:07:58.

we've got two guests - Severin Carrell, who is the Scotland

:07:59.:08:01.

editor at the Guardian, It seems odd starting with those who

:08:02.:08:11.

lost most but I wanted to ask you about that can rent when he said the

:08:12.:08:17.

problem with Labour is they're not comfortable nationally -- comment

:08:18.:08:21.

and not comfortable unionists. Quite an extraordinary thing for someone

:08:22.:08:25.

to say. It is the great conundrum and challenge Scottish Labour face

:08:26.:08:29.

because Kezia Dugdale is adamant she has to lead an autonomous party that

:08:30.:08:34.

talks to Scotland and fights on Scottish affairs for Scotland. At

:08:35.:08:38.

the same time they have to portray themselves as part of a family of

:08:39.:08:43.

parties across the UK. They are trapped by language and these two

:08:44.:08:48.

great tensions between the large group of Labour politicians, David

:08:49.:08:54.

Martin and others who say the Scottish Labour Party has do advance

:08:55.:08:56.

home-rule agenda and be more positive about increased Scottish

:08:57.:09:02.

powers, federal agenda but also those who want to focus more on

:09:03.:09:07.

domestic day-to-day politics. It is a question of language. They are not

:09:08.:09:12.

Unionists because they set up a devolved parliament, they have a

:09:13.:09:16.

long long heritage of believing in campaigning for Scottish home rule

:09:17.:09:17.

in the UK and they are not campaigning for Scottish home rule

:09:18.:09:21.

nationalists so they do have a problem about how they frame what

:09:22.:09:24.

they want to offer. They need to sort that out. You could presumably

:09:25.:09:30.

try to seize home rule a own agenda by making it quite clear you do not

:09:31.:09:34.

want to see the break up of the UK. The Lib Dems, that has been their

:09:35.:09:38.

policy for decades. Why does Labour have such difficulty? This is as

:09:39.:09:44.

much to do with the confidence voters have in the overall package,

:09:45.:09:50.

look at the tax issue Kezia Dugdale was arguing forcefully for, it did

:09:51.:09:54.

not make a jot of difference to the Labour Party vote in the final

:09:55.:09:58.

outcome because people might like the product, they may not want the

:09:59.:10:01.

manufacturer. They may not have enough trust in the person offering

:10:02.:10:08.

the product and that'll be a problem for the constitutional issue. The

:10:09.:10:13.

other Labour problem is what they were campaigning for was a solution

:10:14.:10:19.

arrived at by all parties, the Smith commission was pretty much a

:10:20.:10:22.

mutually agreed package that all the parties participated in, including

:10:23.:10:27.

the SNP. The previous proposals and commission was a deal, a deeply

:10:28.:10:33.

flawed proposition but it was arrived at through a process of

:10:34.:10:37.

conversations, the Lib Dems and conservatives. The Labour Party have

:10:38.:10:43.

the space now and the challenge, the absolute requirement to go out and

:10:44.:10:48.

start strike out, do some blue sky thinking, new ground and fresh

:10:49.:10:54.

territory. OK, the SNP won, they did not win out right. Nicola Sturgeon

:10:55.:10:58.

seemed adamant that she still thought she could pretty much do

:10:59.:11:03.

what she wanted. I think she still has the whip hand. That is the case.

:11:04.:11:08.

She is correct to say at the end of the parliament they only had 64

:11:09.:11:13.

MSPs, 63 now. The beauty of the position is they have two smaller

:11:14.:11:18.

parties both which can get as near as dammit to a majority. The

:11:19.:11:23.

Scottish Greens are the more natural part is that the SNP because part of

:11:24.:11:27.

the challenge for Nicola Sturgeon is it is clear a lot of SNP voters gave

:11:28.:11:32.

the Scottish Greens their second vote. That 5%, 5-point difference

:11:33.:11:38.

between what the SNP got on the constituency vote and regionally

:11:39.:11:45.

went to the Scottish Greens. So, one assumes many SNP activists and

:11:46.:11:49.

voters would say Nicola you need to stick to pat -- speak to Patrick

:11:50.:11:53.

press. The Lib Dems will want to come back as well. Willie Rennie

:11:54.:11:58.

will want to assert his party position and role. What about

:11:59.:12:02.

independence? Is what Nicola Sturgeon said about not ruling it

:12:03.:12:06.

out, is as brave words or is there any possibility now of a second

:12:07.:12:12.

referendum? It is diminished. We do not know what will happen with

:12:13.:12:17.

Brexit and other things on issues around the Tory party or whatever

:12:18.:12:24.

but as things stand, no, it has diminished. Nicola Haseler and

:12:25.:12:27.

balancing act, her intentions. She has two keep our rank and file SNP

:12:28.:12:36.

members and again 25% of the Scottish population voted for her on

:12:37.:12:40.

Thursday, happy and confident they have a party that will push on the

:12:41.:12:45.

big issue the SNP are most clearly aligned with and that is

:12:46.:12:49.

independence. On the politics of it, the economics, they are looking

:12:50.:12:52.

really really difficult and I cannot see anything other... Is a new

:12:53.:12:58.

problem that the SNP have to keep happy all these people in the seats

:12:59.:13:03.

they won in Glasgow who may agree more with Labour on tax but also how

:13:04.:13:06.

a problem that the vote more with Labour on tax but also how

:13:07.:13:12.

declining, it is not haemorrhaging but in nutritional areas they are

:13:13.:13:16.

losing out to the Tories say they need to worry about these things.

:13:17.:13:22.

There is a problem, the first minister was right to say we have 63

:13:23.:13:30.

MSPs, 64 but if you look at the numbers in the constituency is the

:13:31.:13:35.

SNP share of the vote fell proportionally in as many as 30 of

:13:36.:13:40.

the 60 seats they won. They have not had a brilliant election by any

:13:41.:13:45.

means. It has been very very good but not as successful as 2011. We

:13:46.:13:48.

must leave it there. I'll be back at the

:13:49.:13:49.

same time next week.

:13:50.:13:54.

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer present the latest political news and all the fallout on the local elections, including reaction from Labour's Caroline Flint and shadow energy minister Clive Lewis. Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson talks about her party's performance.

And what sort of hearing will Philip Green get from MPs investigating the collapse of BHS?

The Political Panel is made up of Julia Hartley-Brewer, Tom Newton Dunn of the Sun and Steve Richards of the IndependentPolitical Panel is made up of Julia Hartley-Brewer, Tom Newton Dunn of the Sun and Steve Richards of the Independent.


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