08/05/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


08/05/2016

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A thumping big win for Labour over the Conservatives in London -

:00:37.:00:42.

but what do Thursday's less impressive results across

:00:43.:00:44.

the country mean for Jeremy Corbyn's chances of getting to Number 10?

:00:45.:00:48.

We'll hear from both sides of the debate

:00:49.:00:50.

Here's one Tory riding high at least.

:00:51.:00:55.

Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson has managed to take

:00:56.:00:58.

the party once thought of as too toxic for Scotland

:00:59.:01:00.

And with the elections now over, it's back to the biggest political

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The Cabinet's heavyweights have been trading blows

:01:09.:01:11.

Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland...

:01:12.:01:16.

third term in office, but falls short of an

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We'll be speaking to Nicola Sturgeon live.

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giving media interviews this morning, I'm joined in the studio

:01:35.:01:39.

by the aristocracy, the upper crust, the royalty

:01:40.:01:41.

Tom Newton-Dunn, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Steve Richards.

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We're going to have a whip round after the show

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and get Steve a double-barrelled surname too.

:01:51.:01:53.

demonstration of modern democracy in the United Kingdom.

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There was good and bad for almost every political party

:02:08.:02:10.

across the nations and regions, and that's meant a feast

:02:11.:02:12.

of spinning, analysis, claim and counter-claim.

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Well today with almost all of the results now in -

:02:15.:02:16.

although we're still waiting for a few police and crime

:02:17.:02:18.

commissioners and one English council - we're going to try

:02:19.:02:21.

First here's Adam with his behind-the-scenes look at how

:02:22.:02:25.

It's election night, and my chance to annoy the big

:02:26.:02:30.

And this is the most depressing bit.

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Are you expecting to get a bit of a headache?

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It's a two day extravaganza of results.

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Will Jeremy Corbyn be staying up all night tonight?

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Jeremy doesn't go to bed on nights like this!

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We're old mates, we've been together 30 years on these different things

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So you're both proper election night geeks?

:02:59.:03:02.

The Labour telly addicts watched their party lose one council

:03:03.:03:07.

and a handful of councillors in England, not a lot,

:03:08.:03:11.

but not amazing either, as even Jeremy Corbyn admitted.

:03:12.:03:14.

We were getting predictions that Labour was going to lose councils,

:03:15.:03:18.

Although he celebrated winning two by-elections in pretty

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This is the first time I've ever had a desk at one of these things.

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The SNP got close to a majority in the Scottish Parliament,

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It is a vote of confidence in the record in government

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of the SNP, and it is a vote of trust in the SNP to lead

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Davidson, Ruth - Scottish and Conservative and Unionist...

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The biggest smile belongs to Ruth Davidson, leader

:04:05.:04:07.

of the Scottish Tories, who displaced Labour to become

:04:08.:04:11.

Have you been looking in the results in Scotland than just going whoa?

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Even if you look at some of the seats...

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We've just seen a few come through, the SNP have hold of one, but,

:04:26.:04:28.

actually, with huge swings from the SNP to the Conservatives.

:04:29.:04:31.

In Wales Ukip won their first seats on the Assembly,

:04:32.:04:34.

meaning a comeback for the former Tory MP Neil Hamilton,

:04:35.:04:38.

who managed to offend one Welshman within seconds.

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I'm thoroughly Welsh through and through,

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Here were are in virtually your hometown of Llanelli.

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Just one correction, Neil, of course it's not

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virtually my hometown - it is my hometown.

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So let's be very accurate about that, shall we?

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By lunchtime on Friday, us media types had realised that

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nothing especially dramatic had happened, so we all hotfooted

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it to City Hall to see Labour's Sadiq Khan elected

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Though most of the chat among the hacks in the press room

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was about the campaign run by his Tory rival, Zac Goldsmith,

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which was described as mean and divisive.

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I personally never went near central office in either

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of my campaigns, and I don't think Boris Johnson did either.

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Is that because they're not very good?

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That's because you are the candidates, it is

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your campaign and you should run it your way.

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And Labour nabbed another mayor, in Bristol, taking over

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The results from other campaigns around the UK are still

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It's not been super exciting, but we have got a nice view

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So with almost all the counting and number crunching across England,

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Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland now finished, let's take a look

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The SNP won the Scottish election, and will be the largest party

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But Nicola Sturgeon's party fell two short of a majority, and will govern

:06:12.:06:18.

Ruth Davidson's Conservatives overtook Labour to become the second

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Scottish Labour were pushed into 3rd place -

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with 24 seats, down 13 from the last Holyrood election.

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Labour remains the dominant party in Wales, winning 29

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And Leanne Wood's Plaid Cymru pipped the Conservatives 12 to 11 to become

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taking 7 seats in Wales - the first time they've sat

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In Northern Ireland, the DUP will once again

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They won 38 seats, with the next biggest party Sinn Fein on 28.

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Results in the English councils were seen as a major test

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And the party had a mixed night, winning the most councils -

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but losing 23 councillors since the last elections in 2012.

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There were two Westminster by-elections - with Labour

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holding the seats of Sheffield Brightside and Ogmore.

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And the Labour party won in London too -

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where Sadiq Khan beat Zac Goldsmith to the mayoralty,

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winning 57% of the vote on first preferences, to Goldsmith's 43%.

:07:25.:07:33.

The Green Party came third in the London elections -

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with their highest vote tally yet in the capital.

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Finally, voters in 40 police forces in England and Wales

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elected their new Police and Crime Commissioner.

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With the Tories and Labour triumphing over independents.

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With 36 of the 40 election results having declared, the Tories have won

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What does this mean, in the round, for Labour? It is the worst possible

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result for Labour, because it isn't good enough, and it isn't bad

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enough, which is the worst-case scenario for anyone who wants Labour

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to win in 2020. This is concerning the likes of Jeremy Corbyn and John

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McDonnell, but it is the point of being a political party, winning

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elections. Is it the worst of both worlds because they didn't do badly

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enough? To justify ousting Corbyn, but they didn't do well enough to

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suggest that Corbyn's people were right, and there was a groundswell

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of opinion moving to the far left. We saw the message coming out from

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the deputy leader on Friday morning, stand-down everyone, not yet. Do you

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agree? No. Even if these results had been much worse, as many expected it

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would be in the media and beyond, it still wouldn't have been the mood

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now. It is all being played out in public. Tom Watson, the deputy

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leader, gave an interview on Friday where he called ambiguously for

:09:12.:09:16.

patients. What he meant was, it is far too early to remove a leader who

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got an overwhelming mandate nine months ago in September. And he's

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right about that. You can't do it if the party membership overwhelmingly

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backs the leader. But what he meant by patients was, you don't have to

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translate it, there is a time-limit to this. Jeremy Corbyn needs more

:09:37.:09:39.

time to show he can put together a winning formula. If he fails in

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that, at some point, there will be he and others who will trigger some

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kind of challenge. So he's on a leasehold? Yes. He's not doing well

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enough to suggest he will win the next election. I don't agree with

:09:57.:10:00.

Julia that people are indifferent about winning elections. But party

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members who voted for Jeremy Corbyn are absolutely different to winning

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elections. I don't know. I assume that people who go out knocking on

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doors want to win. Sadiq Khan. That was the big result for Labour, and

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he won very comfortably. He won very strongly in the GLA as well. The

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Tories did very badly. We have this strange situation where, despite

:10:28.:10:30.

Sadiq Khan being the poster boy for the night, he still hasn't met

:10:31.:10:35.

Jeremy Corbyn. Is Mr Khan going to be an alternative Labour Party based

:10:36.:10:40.

around London City Hall? He tells us he's going to meet Jeremy Corbyn

:10:41.:10:45.

tomorrow. Corbyn said they were going to meet today. It is a real

:10:46.:10:50.

problem for Jeremy now because he is up against someone else with their

:10:51.:10:56.

own mandate, an enormous one. 1.3 million Londoners, together with

:10:57.:10:59.

their second preferences. A huge number. I think Sadiq Khan will use

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that to be the mouthpiece of the moderates, the soft left. I would

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suggest that if we were not looking at this through the prism of what it

:11:10.:11:13.

means for Mr Corbyn, we may be pointing out that the Tories didn't

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have a great night. They lost seats in England and Wales, they lost

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London and their share of the vote in London is now under 30%. They

:11:23.:11:28.

only got eight seats on the Greater London assembly. They are in their

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worst position since 2004, which was the second time we had a London

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election. It isn't brilliant for them. They would save the first year

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in government, do get this kind of reaction. Or worse ones. At what is

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overlooked in all this is that the last Labour government's post-97

:11:49.:11:53.

devolution proposals has transformed UK politics. In Scotland, the

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Conservatives are thrilled because they came second, but that wasn't

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about David Cameron, it was about Ruth Davidson, their leader there.

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In London, when people voted for Sadiq Khan, they were not thinking

:12:07.:12:12.

about Jeremy Corbyn. They were voting for him. Unintentionally,

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those devolution proposals have transformed UK politics, fracturing

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the UK parties, and will no longer allow any single party to make those

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sort of thousand seat gains that Blair did. But the Tories shouldn't

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be too complacent about this. It wasn't a great result. It wasn't,

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but who would expect it? The party is an absolute disarray, the deepest

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divisions. We have had a senior Cabinet Minister resign, criticising

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the Prime Minister and the Chancellor. If they did well this

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time, I would be surprised. So the Tories should have done worse? They

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should. I would disagree with your hypothesis to begin with, because

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they are, in some parts of this country, making remarkable progress,

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like Scotland. They could have lost seats. We know the Ruth Davidson

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story. If David Cameron can show his own party he's still a winner, six

:13:14.:13:17.

years into government, I would suggest he is pretty safe

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post-referendum. Well, that is our panel's verdict.

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So the high point for the Conservatives this week

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was undoubtedly in Scotland, where a party once known

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as the toxic Tories has become Ruth Davidson's Conservatives,

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replacing Labour as Scotland's second party and becoming

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the official opposition to the SNP at Holyrood.

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Ruth Davidson successfully positioned herself as the only

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person capable of standing up to Nicola Sturgeon over independence

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This morning Nicola Sturgeon says "bring it on2.

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Well we can speak now to Ruth Davidson, she joins us

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Good morning. Are the Scottish Conservatives now quite separate

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from the Tories? There was no appearance in your campaign from

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ministers in Westminster. But our campaign was launched in March?

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Other than that, did anybody come up to campaign for you? This was not

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about London. It is a sophisticated electorate in Scotland. People knew

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what they were voting for. This wasn't about who would be Prime

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Minister. This was about who would be the First Minister of Scotland,

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and who would be the Leader of the Opposition in Scotland. I made a

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very clear campaign of what I would do if I were to be the Leader of the

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Opposition, how I would hold the SNP to account, how I would say no to a

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second independence referendum, and how I would concentrate on the

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things that matter to ordinary Scots. Let's not go over the

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campaign again! I could probably say those lines in my sleep! In what

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ways to you now regard yourself as distinctive and different from the

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English Tories? Since I took over as leader I was

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the first leader in Scotland to be the leader of the entire party in

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Scotland. In terms of fundraising, Pelissie... What made you different?

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You had seen me takes on different policy decisions from my colleagues

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down south, if you compare the manifestos you will see differences,

:15:27.:15:32.

for one example, the right to buy for housing association houses. We

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don't think that is appropriate for the housing market in Scotland. How

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colleagues did down south. There is a distinct difference that. I wonder

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if it was a Scottish Conservative idea or not. The title was Ruth

:15:46.:15:54.

Davidson, a strong opposition. It did say Scottish Conservatives twice

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on the front cover. And multiply many times inside. In the Times, the

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roof, the whole truth and nothing but the roof. You created a new Tory

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brand. -- Ruth the. We don't fight just as conservatives

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in Scotland but conservatives in the Unionist party. The echoes of the

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Unionist party played quite loud in this election was that they were

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looking for people who would unequivocally stand up for the

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decision we made just 20 months ago. I think that was an area we fought

:16:30.:16:33.

strongly on now we have had some success. While I recognise a win for

:16:34.:16:37.

the Scottish National party, they are now in a third term of

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government, and I congratulated the First Minister, what was really

:16:43.:16:45.

significant about the result is we managed to stop them having a

:16:46.:16:49.

majority. They slipped back. This idea that they didn't put a clear

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mandate for a referendum in their manifesto, unlike in 2011, and now

:16:57.:16:59.

they don't even have a majority, that takes the second referendum off

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the table for five years and give Scotland's stability. You say a

:17:05.:17:08.

second referendum is off the cards and I understand the reasons why. I

:17:09.:17:12.

suggest that means unionists in the rest of the UK you would like to

:17:13.:17:16.

back Brexit can now do so without the fear of the second independence

:17:17.:17:21.

referendum? I argued all through this campaign irrespective of what

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happens with a referendum on Europe, that is not trigger point for a

:17:25.:17:31.

second referendum. I haven't heard anyone in the SNP argued

:17:32.:17:34.

successfully if there are was a Brexit... It is important we stay

:17:35.:17:42.

part of the union in which we export so many goods and services. I have

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yet to have anyone in the SNP explain it. But I look forward in

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the coming weeks to hear them make the argument for that. Last time the

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SNP were a majority government the Scottish Tories gave them crucial

:18:01.:18:03.

support on budget votes. Can you see us of doing that again? I think

:18:04.:18:09.

times move on. The SNP is no longer led by Alex Salmond... We know that.

:18:10.:18:17.

I think we will be robust. I will seek to put forward alternatives. I

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want to be as positive as I can be, not just crudely and blocking and

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questioning, although all of that is important. The debate we haven't had

:18:26.:18:29.

in Scotland for the last five years, but I want to put forward

:18:30.:18:32.

alternatives. One area I think we can make common cause is reforming

:18:33.:18:36.

education, it is a disgrace our school performances have gone back

:18:37.:18:40.

in Scotland in recent years. We used to have the best education system

:18:41.:18:52.

anywhere in the world. That is no longer the case. There is a lot I

:18:53.:18:55.

can do to try and bring the SNP onto our ground. I managed in the last

:18:56.:18:58.

parliament coming from third, in terms of school testing and money

:18:59.:19:00.

not just being handed to local authorities, I think we got a wink,

:19:01.:19:03.

teach first. There are real areas I think we can help the debate in

:19:04.:19:06.

Scotland and put forward is positive or turn at its. You shouldn't

:19:07.:19:10.

overplay your part. The SNP is still the dominant party in Holyrood, you

:19:11.:19:14.

are second, but all the other opposition parties are to the left

:19:15.:19:18.

of you. You're still a minority voice and won't be able to count on

:19:19.:19:22.

the opposition, other opposition parties ganging up on your side? We

:19:23.:19:27.

are a hugely important voice precisely because of the other side

:19:28.:19:35.

in voices you have identified. The First Minister, like the Prime

:19:36.:19:37.

Minister has competing and conflicting areas of interest: how

:19:38.:19:40.

one way or another. You are right to say Nicola Sturgeon has that she

:19:41.:19:43.

wants to make Scotland the highest in the UK. The other parties are

:19:44.:19:48.

trying to drag a further left, taking more money out of the pocket

:19:49.:19:53.

of ordinary working Scots. Our voice is crucial to pull her back to the

:19:54.:19:56.

centre, saying that is not the way to look after the Beeb all working

:19:57.:20:00.

hard and deserve a break in Scotland but also not the way to look after a

:20:01.:20:05.

Scottish economy. Last month's figures, 20,000 rise in unemployment

:20:06.:20:11.

in the UK, most of which came from Scotland. Our economic growth is a

:20:12.:20:15.

fraction of the rest of the UK. We need to become a more competitive

:20:16.:20:18.

country. That is an odd and I can make very strongly. Let me ask you

:20:19.:20:22.

this, when you look at the huge powers that have been devolved

:20:23.:20:27.

Scotland, and more on their way over schools, education, hospitals,

:20:28.:20:30.

health, transport and now a chunk of tax as well, is it ever conceivable

:20:31.:20:37.

that a Scottish MP from a Scottish constituency could ever again be

:20:38.:20:41.

Prime Minister of the United given that they would have no

:20:42.:20:45.

responsibility for so many things that affect the rest of the UK? Of

:20:46.:20:51.

course. Typically in the last Labour government you had a health minister

:20:52.:20:55.

who came from Lanarkshire in John Reid you had a chance of that came

:20:56.:21:02.

from Edinburgh. Is that conceivable again, that you could have a Home

:21:03.:21:07.

Secretary from a Scottish constituency, where everything on

:21:08.:21:12.

the home front is essentially devolved to Scotland? It was

:21:13.:21:14.

devolved at the time it was being taken over by John Reid. I know he

:21:15.:21:19.

played Parliamentary bingo and got a lot of big jobs. If you have English

:21:20.:21:25.

votes for English laws, a Scottish Prime Minister wouldn't even get to

:21:26.:21:31.

vote on his own policies. Andrew, you and I have talked about this

:21:32.:21:36.

many times. You saw our Strathclyde commission report, the basis that

:21:37.:21:39.

the Smith commission, the devolution of all these powers on one of the

:21:40.:21:44.

key aspects of that, looking at great detail with constitutional

:21:45.:21:48.

expert, was to ensure it wouldn't divest Scotland away from the rest

:21:49.:21:52.

of the UK. I don't think it does. In terms of all of the big jobs, I

:21:53.:21:57.

think you will see another Scottish Prime Minister, or from Wales or

:21:58.:22:02.

Northern Ireland. Talent will out. Do you think you've Zac Goldsmith

:22:03.:22:04.

bought the kind of campaign you fought in Scotland the Conservatives

:22:05.:22:13.

might have held on to the mayor? I don't qualify to talk about that,

:22:14.:22:16.

I've only been to London once this year. I knew I had a job to deliver

:22:17.:22:21.

here in Scotland. Even though I am a political geek I didn't watch the

:22:22.:22:25.

London mayoral race that closely I had a job to do the. Thank you.

:22:26.:22:29.

So Labour ended the week with a big result to feel cheerful about thanks

:22:30.:22:32.

to Sadiq Khan's thumping win over Zac Goldsmith to become

:22:33.:22:34.

The numeric macro has used his big job in office to reach out beyond

:22:35.:22:44.

the activists, which sounds like criticism of Jeremy Corbyn. He was

:22:45.:22:45.

talking to Andrew Marr earlier. We in Labour, our mission is to

:22:46.:22:51.

improve people's lives, and change We only do that

:22:52.:22:53.

by winning elections, by having a mandate

:22:54.:22:56.

to improve people's lives. What are the challenges

:22:57.:22:58.

facing Londoners? How do you tackle

:22:59.:23:00.

the housing crisis? How do you ensure we have a modern

:23:01.:23:01.

and affordable transport system? How do young people get

:23:02.:23:04.

the skills of tomorrow? We only do that by speaking to those

:23:05.:23:06.

people who previously By speaking to Tory voters,

:23:07.:23:12.

to those outside of our tent. And my point is, we've got to

:23:13.:23:16.

stop talking about ourselves. Well, to discuss this we're joined

:23:17.:23:18.

from Leeds by Caroline Flint, she was of course a former minister

:23:19.:23:22.

and was in Ed Miliband's Welcome back to the programme

:23:23.:23:33.

Caroline Flint. Let me put Sadiq Khan's quote to you. So-called

:23:34.:23:36.

natural Labour voters alone will never be enough to win a general

:23:37.:23:40.

election. Have you seen any progress from Thursday's results that Jeremy

:23:41.:23:45.

Corbyn's Labour Party is making progress in appealing to beyond the

:23:46.:23:50.

faithful? We need to make a lot more progress, Andrew. Although we had a

:23:51.:23:54.

fantastic result in London with Sadiq Khan, and I have to say the

:23:55.:23:58.

Tory campaign was both shameful and disgusting. We won in Bristol with

:23:59.:24:03.

Marvin and held onto councils like Crawley, Southampton and Redditch

:24:04.:24:06.

and Hastings, where I have been many times. It is not enough. We have to

:24:07.:24:11.

show that we are a party that is competitively challenging the

:24:12.:24:15.

government. That is why, as Sadiq said in his interview in the

:24:16.:24:19.

Observer today, we have to reach out beyond the big cities and reach out

:24:20.:24:23.

to those people who voted Conservative to vote Labour. Then we

:24:24.:24:27.

can have big politics for a big election and when it. What you say

:24:28.:24:31.

to John McDonnell, been a bit too in your party, saying I think we are on

:24:32.:24:36.

a steady course for victory in 2020. We are laying the foundations for

:24:37.:24:41.

that long haul victory in 2020. Is he right or wrong? I believe in

:24:42.:24:45.

honest straight talking politics. John McDonnell said in the run-up to

:24:46.:24:49.

these elections, we are looking to hang on. Looking to hang on isn't

:24:50.:24:54.

enough. This is the worst result for an opposition party after a general

:24:55.:24:59.

election in 30th. The year after Michael foot was elected we gained

:25:00.:25:04.

1000 council seats. Tony Blair 1800, Ed Miliband over 800. We actually

:25:05.:25:10.

had a loss of 28. In fact, the Tories, when you look at directly

:25:11.:25:14.

contested elections, gained three. It doesn't take away from the hard

:25:15.:25:20.

work on the ground by Labour councillors, Parliamentary

:25:21.:25:21.

candidates and members in these elections, but we need to be making

:25:22.:25:26.

far more inroads to be within an opportunity to win in 2020. That is

:25:27.:25:31.

the challenge for Jeremy. He deserves the right to lead, won the

:25:32.:25:35.

election, but he has to show, what have the loan from these elections?

:25:36.:25:39.

Will he talked people like Sadiq Khan to think about how we broaden

:25:40.:25:43.

our appeal so we can be in a very strong position, 2020. How long has

:25:44.:25:48.

it got to learn these lessons? Our members were only elected in

:25:49.:25:52.

September last year. I said he won on a huge mandate. He has not only

:25:53.:25:57.

won the right to be leader, he is the leader and our members believe

:25:58.:26:00.

Labour leaders should have the time to prove themselves. But, you know

:26:01.:26:04.

we know when the election is going to be, that is something relatively

:26:05.:26:08.

new to our politics in Britain. We also know this election we have to

:26:09.:26:13.

be honest about what the positive aspects and also about what didn't

:26:14.:26:15.

work and where we need to gain ground. How long have you got?

:26:16.:26:20.

People will be looking to hear from Jeremy what he's run and how he will

:26:21.:26:24.

take us forward and they will be looking... We have elections next

:26:25.:26:27.

year and the year after, but we have to ask ourselves is a party. I think

:26:28.:26:31.

this is a really big task for Jeremy Tilse. We are having a debate about

:26:32.:26:35.

what is the Labour Party for? We have to decide, are we a party of

:26:36.:26:40.

protest or a mainstream, democratic socialist party which is

:26:41.:26:43.

competitively challenging for government? If we are the latter,

:26:44.:26:47.

which we should be, we need to have the politics and the leadership to

:26:48.:26:52.

actually talk about that much, much more and take us board. That is

:26:53.:26:56.

really important for all of us. We have to ask ourselves is well, we

:26:57.:27:01.

have ten years of opposition here. We don't need another five on top of

:27:02.:27:07.

that. John McDonnell thinks you begrudge things. He says, for

:27:08.:27:11.

goodness sake get behind the leader, it is time to put up or shut up. I

:27:12.:27:15.

am someone who loves the Labour Party. I joined in 1979, I know what

:27:16.:27:25.

it's like... Put up or shut up? I am putting up. I put up in the House of

:27:26.:27:29.

Commons, where I am working with John McDonnell's team on tax

:27:30.:27:33.

transparency measures. We have a Tory party that should be absolutely

:27:34.:27:37.

on the ropes. A jet measures they had to drop on tax credits, Sunday

:27:38.:27:42.

trading they have had to drop, and I knew turned since the last general

:27:43.:27:46.

election. The education policy in tatters, the Panama papers, it goes

:27:47.:27:49.

election. The education policy in on and on. The truth is we need to

:27:50.:27:55.

be making sure that the public know about that and we have an

:27:56.:27:59.

alternative to that. At the moment, despite all those issues facing the

:28:00.:28:03.

Tory party, we didn't make as much progress as we showed. Let's be

:28:04.:28:07.

honest about these results, let's be honest about we need to reach out

:28:08.:28:11.

beyond our core vote, just as Sadiq Khan said. I hope John McDonnell

:28:12.:28:15.

will back me on that. Lets see if we can continue with this honesty.

:28:16.:28:20.

Given Scotland is now effectively a no go area for Labour, how could you

:28:21.:28:26.

ever hope to win the 2020 election on England alone? You would need a

:28:27.:28:32.

13 point lead, a bigger lead than Tony Blair had. That is just not

:28:33.:28:37.

conceivable. It is a massive challenge, Andrew. In Scotland are

:28:38.:28:41.

very disappointing night for Scotland. I think how Scottish

:28:42.:28:46.

friends all know that the way back for Labour will take some time. I

:28:47.:28:50.

wouldn't blame Jeremy Corbyn for what happened in Scotland either.

:28:51.:28:54.

You are right. My understanding is if we don't make the sort of

:28:55.:28:59.

comeback we need to in Scotland, in the numbers were used to be able to

:29:00.:29:04.

rely on, we need to gain something like 100 seats, 100 seats in England

:29:05.:29:08.

to have a majority. We need to have that sort of talking within the

:29:09.:29:14.

party. Activists realise protests in themselves will not be enough.

:29:15.:29:17.

Labour votes won't be enough and I'm looking to Jeremy Corbyn to provide

:29:18.:29:18.

the leadership that. A final question. What you say to

:29:19.:29:29.

several Tory MPs who have said to me, and I quote, Mr Corbyn's

:29:30.:29:33.

survival is the single most important thing for Tories for 2020?

:29:34.:29:39.

If we are not winning elections, they will say that. In many

:29:40.:29:44.

respects, the Tories were probably relatively relieved. Despite the

:29:45.:29:49.

shameful campaign they ran in London, given everything that's been

:29:50.:29:53.

going on in government in the last eight months, they should be quite

:29:54.:29:58.

relieved in terms of the result. We need to show them that Jeremy can

:29:59.:30:02.

stand up and face those criticisms, and the way he does that is by

:30:03.:30:07.

reaching out, as Sadiq Khan has done, as have many councils across

:30:08.:30:10.

the country in keeping their seats, and do the right thing for Labour.

:30:11.:30:15.

We need to move on, Caroline. Thank you.

:30:16.:30:17.

So that's the view of one former member of the Labour frontbench -

:30:18.:30:20.

we're joined now by the current shadow energy minister Clive Lewis,

:30:21.:30:23.

he's in our Norwich studio - welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:30:24.:30:25.

Morning, Andrew. Caroline Flint was saying that George Osborne's latest

:30:26.:30:33.

budget is in ruins, the Tories are tearing themselves apart over

:30:34.:30:36.

Europe, Iain Duncan Smith resigned because of what the government is

:30:37.:30:41.

doing to the working poor. The best Mr Corbyn could say was, we hung on.

:30:42.:30:47.

Is that good enough? Let's have a look at the focus of the media to --

:30:48.:30:54.

the media and the punditry. It was issued in the Labour Party that was

:30:55.:30:59.

the core focus for you guys. You brought that on yourselves. The

:31:00.:31:05.

bottom line is, at the start of your programme, you began that the

:31:06.:31:08.

results of the Labour Party, when actually, we were up 2% in the

:31:09.:31:12.

national share vote and the Tories were down 5%. Yet you in your

:31:13.:31:17.

commentators started on how it was a result for Labour. I'm not saying it

:31:18.:31:21.

was anything to shout about. But let's look at the results. You need

:31:22.:31:27.

13 points to win, so I would suggest that one or two points is neither

:31:28.:31:30.

here nor there was yellow Caroline Flint hit the nail on the head in

:31:31.:31:35.

that we have a massive task in front of us. But infighting is not the way

:31:36.:31:40.

forward. That is not going to help us achieve victory in 2020. We all

:31:41.:31:45.

know it is a massive uphill struggle. We need to think how we

:31:46.:31:48.

can make the best effort to win in 2020, and that is what the next few

:31:49.:31:55.

weeks and months need to be about. I agree with with so much of what

:31:56.:31:59.

Sadiq Khan said in his interview. Why doesn't Jeremy Corbyn meet with

:32:00.:32:06.

him? I think he will. But he won the capital city, by 14 points. It was

:32:07.:32:12.

an incredible victory, the first Muslim leader of a major city in

:32:13.:32:18.

Europe. And Mr Corbyn, we haven't seen him anywhere near him yet. It

:32:19.:32:24.

is a fantastic victory. Sadiq Khan nominated Jeremy. He didn't vote for

:32:25.:32:28.

him, which is a brilliantly principled position. Corbyn and Khan

:32:29.:32:34.

are comrades and good friends. They have a lot to learn from each other.

:32:35.:32:43.

Sadiq Khan won because he was with Jeremy Corbyn. All the people in

:32:44.:32:47.

London who are supporting the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn and

:32:48.:32:52.

reaching out. I am sure that Sadiq and Jeremy will meet in the near

:32:53.:32:59.

future. It is certainly unusual. Caroline Flint has just told us that

:33:00.:33:02.

the Conservatives should be happy and relieved by Thursday's results.

:33:03.:33:08.

I don't think they should. In Exeter they lost four seats. In Ipswich,

:33:09.:33:13.

there were seats we didn't even win in 97. Their share of the vote is

:33:14.:33:18.

down 5%. They didn't make the games expected in Wales. I don't think it

:33:19.:33:23.

is a fantastic result for them at all. I expect the Conservatives will

:33:24.:33:33.

try to turn the focus back on to Labour, but I don't think they've

:33:34.:33:36.

got anything to crow about either at the moment. What do you say to Ian

:33:37.:33:39.

Murray, the Scottish Secretary, the only Labour MP in Scotland. He says,

:33:40.:33:40.

Murray, the Scottish Secretary, the I don't think the public see the UK

:33:41.:33:44.

Labour Party led by Jeremy Corbyn as being a credible party of future

:33:45.:33:51.

government in 2020. I listened to the whole interview, and I respect

:33:52.:33:56.

Ian Murray great real. I heard his statement. I think he was saying,

:33:57.:34:01.

basically, where we are as a party at the moment isn't good enough. I

:34:02.:34:05.

don't think you'll find anyone in the Labour Party who would disagree

:34:06.:34:10.

with that. We need to move forward and consolidate. These results were

:34:11.:34:14.

not the disaster that you and the punditry were predicting. We were

:34:15.:34:19.

told 150 or 200 seats lost -- would be lost. We were told Jeremy Corbyn

:34:20.:34:25.

wouldn't win, and then he won with a landslide. We won -- we heard that

:34:26.:34:30.

the old by-election would be a disaster. And he won. I think the

:34:31.:34:36.

thing to think about now is that politics is in flux. In the US, we

:34:37.:34:46.

have a socialist running Hillary Clinton to the wire, but then you

:34:47.:34:50.

have Donald Trump standing as well. People are concerned and angry, and

:34:51.:34:54.

things are changing, and the punditry needs to take that into

:34:55.:34:58.

account and reflect that things are changing. We will take that into

:34:59.:35:04.

account. I never use the word disaster to talk about Labour's

:35:05.:35:09.

performance on Thursday. Let's stick with that. I put to you that surely

:35:10.:35:15.

the real lesson from Scotland is this - if you continue to attack

:35:16.:35:20.

north of the border, as you have been, you need to do better in

:35:21.:35:26.

England than even Tony Blair did in 97, and that, I put to you, is

:35:27.:35:32.

frankly fantasy. Let's look at Scotland. It was a very difficult

:35:33.:35:36.

night for us. I would rather you looked at England and tell me how

:35:37.:35:38.

you will do well. This is the issue you will do well. This is the issue

:35:39.:35:45.

- what we have done in this weeks election is consolidate our vote in

:35:46.:35:51.

2015 and improve it by 2%. We now need to move forward. We now have

:35:52.:35:57.

next to no chance of winning in 2020 if we remain a divided house, and

:35:58.:36:01.

that is what has happened at the moment. What we can all learn from

:36:02.:36:06.

Sadiq was explaining is -- in his interview is that we have

:36:07.:36:11.

consolidated our vote in 2015 and improved it, and now we have to move

:36:12.:36:16.

on small businesses, to those who are affected by the government cuts

:36:17.:36:21.

on public services. We need to reach out to people who have voted

:36:22.:36:25.

Conservative in the past. I think it is a message that Jeremy Corbyn has

:36:26.:36:30.

two and will listen to. But the key thing is that a house divided has no

:36:31.:36:36.

chance of being able to do that in 2020. Thank you for joining us.

:36:37.:36:39.

It's just gone 11.35am - you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:36:40.:36:43.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:36:44.:36:45.

we're going to be talking about a big week ahead

:36:46.:36:50.

First, though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

:36:51.:37:18.

With enthusiasm and confidence clearly and firmly behind us, we

:37:19.:37:26.

will collectively get on with the job of delivering for the people of

:37:27.:37:28.

our country. Kezia Dugdale put a brave face on it

:37:29.:37:42.

as the party vote collapsed - can Scottish Labour rebuild

:37:43.:37:45.

or it is a spent force? Asked before the election

:37:46.:37:48.

if the Conservatives would take overtake Labour and become the main

:37:49.:37:50.

opposition, the Tory leader Ruth Davidson

:37:51.:37:52.

responded unequivocally yes. Well, the rest, as

:37:53.:37:53.

they say, is history. Just how did the Conservatives

:37:54.:37:55.

detoxify their brand, win seats for a raft of new MSPs

:37:56.:37:57.

and revitalise the party's fortunes Yesterday Ruth Davidson acknowledged

:37:58.:38:00.

the role played by a coalition of blue collared workers who'd never

:38:01.:38:04.

been persuaded to back She's promised to hold

:38:05.:38:06.

the SNP to account. Earlier I spoke to the party's

:38:07.:38:10.

deputy leader, Jackson Carlaw, Well, Nicola Sturgeon said she has

:38:11.:38:28.

an unequivocal mandate to implement her manifesto. Doshi? Unequivocal is

:38:29.:38:34.

to overstate it. It reminds me of the politics of assertion which

:38:35.:38:39.

worked with a fork in the last government. There is no doubt in our

:38:40.:38:43.

minds the preferred government of Scotland is one run by Nicola

:38:44.:38:47.

Sturgeon and the SNP. But the public have a way of correcting things and

:38:48.:38:51.

I think they were slightly uncomfortable with the overbearing

:38:52.:38:55.

arrogance of the last SNP government and decided they wanted a proper

:38:56.:39:00.

opposition to clip the wings and see a government deposed. Nationalists

:39:01.:39:04.

said we need an opposition and government. That is the job they

:39:05.:39:09.

have entrusted to the Scottish Conservatives. Nicola Sturgeon says

:39:10.:39:14.

Ruth Davidson is overreaching when she says the SNP have no mandate for

:39:15.:39:20.

a second independence referendum. Issue bite? Again, she is asserting

:39:21.:39:23.

a position which is defied by the results. The key platform on which

:39:24.:39:29.

the Scottish Conservatives and Ruth stood was not just the strong

:39:30.:39:34.

opposition but no to a second referendum, no other party was

:39:35.:39:38.

unequivocal about that. We were. A government that no longer has a

:39:39.:39:41.

majority, Nicola Sturgeon in the last week of the campaign, it was

:39:42.:39:46.

the eye word. I will decide I will review, I will look at the opinion

:39:47.:39:51.

polls and to independence. I do not think she has the right to stand

:39:52.:39:57.

there and say it all about her. If you add in the greens there is a

:39:58.:40:01.

pro-independence majority parliament so should they decide collectively

:40:02.:40:05.

they want to push for another referendum, why did not have the

:40:06.:40:09.

right? It would be foolish to try, it was not in the manifesto, I do

:40:10.:40:13.

not think they have mandate and Scotland has made it clear it wants

:40:14.:40:17.

to see the government get on with governments and to put independence

:40:18.:40:21.

issue aside. The Scottish Conservatives have done that. It is

:40:22.:40:28.

not going to happen. You are saying what you think should happen, what

:40:29.:40:32.

is to stop them collectively come the greens and the SNP saying we

:40:33.:40:38.

have a majority, we will push for a second referendum and we have the

:40:39.:40:41.

right to do that because we have a majority. I know the problem with

:40:42.:40:47.

common sense it is it is not common. If the SNP has common sense it will

:40:48.:40:52.

recognise if it pushes on and persists with trying to put Scotland

:40:53.:40:55.

through another referendum it is going to come to grief. They need to

:40:56.:41:01.

demonstrate they can govern the country. Come to grief in what

:41:02.:41:06.

sense? At subsequent elections. That is -- stratification -- satisfaction

:41:07.:41:20.

was down. This was not in the manifesto. I do not think they have

:41:21.:41:25.

a mandate, Nicola Sturgeon wants to implement her manifesto in full,

:41:26.:41:28.

having a second referendum was not in the manifesto. Should they do it

:41:29.:41:35.

and they are asserting they may do it, should they do that, do you

:41:36.:41:38.

think the British government should it, should they do that, do you

:41:39.:41:42.

step in and say, sorry, you can't have that. You do not have the

:41:43.:41:47.

mandate. I do believe it will get to that point. I would not be unhappy

:41:48.:41:52.

if they did but I do not believe it will get to that point. I think we

:41:53.:41:57.

will see a parliament now with a strong opposition, not just from the

:41:58.:42:00.

Conservatives but other opposition parties with more teeth to change

:42:01.:42:05.

the agenda. We will move onto other issues. You say you will not be

:42:06.:42:11.

unhappy if did but that would give the Scottish Nationalists and

:42:12.:42:15.

everyone who supports independence the greatest cause for grievance

:42:16.:42:19.

they ever had. But it isn't going to happen! The focus is going to be on

:42:20.:42:24.

the other issues and the most immediate one is the legislation for

:42:25.:42:30.

which there is a natural majority against. Do you expect that to be

:42:31.:42:34.

one of the first things where you can challenge the unequivocal right

:42:35.:42:42.

of Nicola Sturgeon? Absolutely. We want to stop it. And you think you

:42:43.:42:49.

can? There was a natural majority across other parties that realise

:42:50.:42:53.

the concerns with the public, it became as the election moron a big

:42:54.:42:59.

issue on the doorsteps -- election war on. It is something many SNP

:43:00.:43:05.

people are wondering if they have done the right thing. That is where

:43:06.:43:17.

we will make a difference. Tax. Actually, you are the only

:43:18.:43:20.

opposition party that agrees with the SNP on the basic rate of tax so

:43:21.:43:25.

presumably you would be happy to help them get through their

:43:26.:43:29.

proposals on tax. Well, we have come into the parliament to be a party

:43:30.:43:32.

that will lead the opposition, we will look at the budget as a whole,

:43:33.:43:36.

we will not be looking at it piecemeal to see if there are any

:43:37.:43:42.

trinkets in there. When it comes to opposing rises in the basic rate of

:43:43.:43:46.

tax which the Lib Dems and greens and Labour want, you would stand by

:43:47.:43:53.

the SNP? We do not isolate the budget in that way taking votes on

:43:54.:43:57.

the individual pieces, we look at the budget as a whole. Unless the

:43:58.:44:03.

budget will restore the 152,000 college places and deliver on other

:44:04.:44:08.

key areas we supported then we will be there to oppose the government

:44:09.:44:11.

not to vote piecemeal for things we do not approve. Would you want in

:44:12.:44:16.

negotiations to demand the Scottish government George Osborne's proposal

:44:17.:44:24.

is implemented? The policy will be for the Scottish government to put

:44:25.:44:28.

forward its budget and we will look to see what they do. Our concern is

:44:29.:44:34.

to ensure overall tax in Scotland is no higher here than elsewhere in the

:44:35.:44:41.

UK. We think it is bad. We are conscious of the fact the proposals

:44:42.:44:46.

of the SNP will drag into higher rate tax all manner of people but I

:44:47.:44:49.

do not think were paying high tax five years ago who I do not think

:44:50.:44:55.

people regard as being rich. You could say to them this is what we

:44:56.:44:58.

people regard as being rich. You believe if you want us to support

:44:59.:45:03.

you, give us this. It is not a case of looking at individual tax policy

:45:04.:45:07.

and saying that leads us to support the budget. We will look at the

:45:08.:45:12.

budget in its entirety. We are not going to be standing there beating

:45:13.:45:15.

our chests saying the Tories are back. We'll be standing there saying

:45:16.:45:20.

with Davidsson's Conservatives have arrived and will look at the job of

:45:21.:45:24.

opposition in a completely different way to ensure there was a political

:45:25.:45:28.

opposition, a different centre of gravity in the parliament, a battle

:45:29.:45:32.

of ideas and that is the challenge is open to us if we are to respond

:45:33.:45:37.

to the confidence given to us by people to be the opposition in

:45:38.:45:39.

Scotland. Nine years in office,

:45:40.:45:42.

over a million votes, a third successive term in office

:45:43.:45:44.

and a personal mandate But, crucially, the party fell short

:45:45.:45:46.

of achieving an outright majority. The SNP has ruled out a formal

:45:47.:45:52.

coalition and will need to win support for its legislation

:45:53.:45:55.

by working with the other parties But yesterday Nicola Sturgeon warned

:45:56.:45:58.

the opposition that she has a "clear "and unequivocal" mandate

:45:59.:46:04.

to govern and they shouldn't In a moment, we will speak

:46:05.:46:06.

to Nicola Sturgeon. The party is also no stranger

:46:07.:46:16.

to minority government, 63 SNP MSPs, enough to give Nicola

:46:17.:46:28.

Sturgeon the personal mandate she wanted to stop she will be the new

:46:29.:46:36.

first minister. We pulled more votes than Labour and the Tories combined.

:46:37.:46:44.

We also had a clean sweet in six out of seven of Scotland's cities. 63

:46:45.:46:53.

MSPs is not enough to guarantee a majority at Holyrood and there will

:46:54.:46:57.

be no formal coalition. We are looking at a minority government.

:46:58.:47:02.

Because the SNP have no majority, they will have two reach out for

:47:03.:47:06.

support from other parties and have discussions in the parliament and

:47:07.:47:12.

hopefully open for people to see them. What happens when one party

:47:13.:47:17.

has all the power is that it tends to use the power to concentrate and

:47:18.:47:19.

get itself more power and that is to use the power to concentrate and

:47:20.:47:31.

anathema to democracy. We have been here before. The SNP formed a

:47:32.:47:38.

minority government nine years ago. In 2007 we had some of the most

:47:39.:47:42.

progressive environmental legislation on renewable targets set

:47:43.:47:45.

anywhere in the world. That was part down to the fact the parliament was

:47:46.:47:53.

more diverse as you could not get that with the government, back in

:47:54.:47:59.

2003 when we had the rainbow parliament, we had progressive

:48:00.:48:06.

legislation on tuition fees and free school meal at a slate of came out

:48:07.:48:12.

of those negotiations. But running a government when you are relying on

:48:13.:48:16.

doing deals with parties like the Greens is not always easy. This is

:48:17.:48:24.

the Scottish budget and it should be done better than this. The SNP has

:48:25.:48:29.

worked with conservatives in the past. Our support for that budget

:48:30.:48:37.

was conditional on three major areas of Conservative policy being

:48:38.:48:42.

delivered. A thousand extra police, big cuts in business rates for our

:48:43.:48:46.

smallest businesses and a new National drug strategy for Scotland.

:48:47.:48:51.

Sticking points in this parliament are likely to include the issues of

:48:52.:48:58.

fracking, tax rates, air passenger duty and SNP plans for a named

:48:59.:49:03.

person to look after every child. But for all the excitement of last

:49:04.:49:09.

Thursday night, there were 1.8 million Scots who chose not to vote,

:49:10.:49:14.

45% of the electorate. Some people tell us they do not care enough but

:49:15.:49:19.

when I did research with focus groups people do care a lot, about

:49:20.:49:23.

housing, where they live and each other, they do not think the

:49:24.:49:28.

political system is doing anything to make anything change in a way

:49:29.:49:35.

that is beneficial. So, how do we re-engage those people? You can't

:49:36.:49:39.

talk to them about big political issues at first, if you engage them

:49:40.:49:43.

about things they care about locally, in the town centre then you

:49:44.:49:47.

get onto the Y -- why it is not dealt with and explore the political

:49:48.:49:54.

problems. I think if we look at how we do local democracy and remake

:49:55.:49:57.

local democracy in a way that asks people what they care about and ask

:49:58.:50:02.

them to get involved in solving the problem, and giving them the power

:50:03.:50:05.

then I think you will build a stronger political system and

:50:06.:50:12.

democratic society. Things have changed in Scotland. A lot of people

:50:13.:50:17.

will be looking for what you could call the red rump. It turned up on

:50:18.:50:23.

Thursday in Shetland. This red rump swallow snapped by the fair Isle

:50:24.:50:25.

Bird Observatory. Joining me now is the First Minister

:50:26.:50:27.

and leader of the SNP, Congratulations! You said yesterday,

:50:28.:50:40.

you have won the election and I congratulate you. You talked about

:50:41.:50:45.

having an unequivocal mandate. That is the bit you do not have.

:50:46.:51:00.

We won the election comprehensively. In terms of the SNP as much strength

:51:01.:51:07.

there is no change. We ended the last parliament with 64 MSP 's and

:51:08.:51:14.

now we have 63. The relative strength of the opposition parties

:51:15.:51:20.

have changed. For opposition parties they will be questions for them

:51:21.:51:23.

about whether they want to align themselves more with a progressive

:51:24.:51:28.

left of centre government so I have feeling relaxed about the

:51:29.:51:30.

Parliamentary arithmetic. The SNP won the election. It is not an

:51:31.:51:40.

unequivocal mandate in like you don't have another right majority. I

:51:41.:51:48.

want to govern in an inclusive way because I think it's right to find

:51:49.:51:52.

common ground and build on it. I am not prepared given the scale of the

:51:53.:52:01.

SNP's mandate to allow opposition parties to undermine our ability to

:52:02.:52:06.

argument that manifesto. What you mean by that? I have a mandate to

:52:07.:52:09.

permit the manifesto and I'm going to do that I'd reaching out where I

:52:10.:52:13.

can because I think that's the right thing to do. You say you don't want

:52:14.:52:18.

them to undermine it but you will have to make compromises. Government

:52:19.:52:22.

is about trying to build alliances and I am going to do that and I'm

:52:23.:52:26.

also seeing clearly to the opposition parties I think they need

:52:27.:52:31.

to recognise the scale and the emphatic nature of the mandate the

:52:32.:52:34.

SNP has achieved. We were elected on a manifesto and as First Minister I

:52:35.:52:39.

am intending to implement that manifesto. But you will have to get

:52:40.:52:46.

agreement from others. Take tax, your proposals on the basic rate of

:52:47.:52:51.

tax, the Tories are the only opposition party which supported

:52:52.:52:54.

you. But the Tories don't support this on giving a tax cut to higher

:52:55.:52:59.

rate tax years. The Liberals and Labour will. That is the fundamental

:53:00.:53:07.

point I am making. The opposition parties, there will be rarer

:53:08.:53:10.

occasions when they will come together in a common position. But

:53:11.:53:17.

you just need the support of the Conservatives. We will put forward a

:53:18.:53:21.

budget and six are bought from across the Parliament. But the

:53:22.:53:26.

Conservatives are the only ones who agree with your basic policies. They

:53:27.:53:31.

don't agree with some of our basic policies on tax. He doesn't agree

:53:32.:53:35.

that a higher rate tax payers should be paying more. They don't agree

:53:36.:53:41.

with our basic proposition. But you know if you get your proposals on

:53:42.:53:44.

tax through and the Conservatives vote for you people will say hang on

:53:45.:53:51.

you slack Labour off for ages for being on the same platform and we

:53:52.:53:56.

are now back in a situation where an SNP government is getting its

:53:57.:54:00.

policies through with Tory support. I will put forward a budget based on

:54:01.:54:04.

a manifesto which secured the support of almost 50% of the

:54:05.:54:13.

Scottish publishing. Jackson Carlaw said we don't vote on budgets in

:54:14.:54:18.

terms of the individual aspects, Parliament vote on the totality of a

:54:19.:54:22.

budget. I will seek support for the totality of the budget. That is how

:54:23.:54:28.

I am going to govern, I am going to govern in a way that I think serves

:54:29.:54:32.

the interests of Scotland and I will ask opposition parties to support

:54:33.:54:34.

the interests of Scotland and I will us. I will seek areas of common

:54:35.:54:38.

ground but I am not going to be thwarted in my determination to

:54:39.:54:41.

govern in the interests of the country. Independence referendum.

:54:42.:54:43.

Can we put that on to bed for the country. Independence referendum.

:54:44.:54:49.

next five years? The position I put forward in the manifesto got the

:54:50.:54:52.

support of almost 50% of the population. I know the Tories by the

:54:53.:54:56.

standards had a good night on Thursday but we have to put it in

:54:57.:55:00.

context. They put forward the position and Jackson Carlaw said

:55:01.:55:03.

they were the only ones going in with an unequivocal position of

:55:04.:55:06.

saying no to an independence referendum -- referendum.

:55:07.:55:18.

Your manifesto was not an ambiguous. The Greens manifesto said they

:55:19.:55:25.

wanted a million people to sign up to a petition before they would

:55:26.:55:29.

support another referendum. The Scottish Parliament should have the

:55:30.:55:30.

support another referendum. The right to propose another referendum.

:55:31.:55:36.

What I acknowledged during the campaign is that those circumstances

:55:37.:55:42.

do not yet exist. Do you need a million strong petition? The point

:55:43.:55:46.

in going to make is that directly raised in the campaign that those of

:55:47.:55:50.

us who support independence have got work to do to address the issues

:55:51.:55:54.

that many people who could have backed the Yes campaign ultimately

:55:55.:55:58.

didn't. We have to address those issues. Talking about another

:55:59.:56:04.

referendum before we do that is putting the cart before the horse.

:56:05.:56:09.

The Greens have even less of a mandate for a referendum than you

:56:10.:56:12.

do. They said they wanted a million people to sign a petition. You are

:56:13.:56:20.

claiming that because of the Greens you have a majority in parliament.

:56:21.:56:27.

We have a majority of MSP supporting Scotland becoming independent. What

:56:28.:56:39.

I am also saying is that those of us who support independence have got a

:56:40.:56:41.

job to do to build the majority support not in parliament had in the

:56:42.:56:46.

country for independence because that will determine the question.

:56:47.:56:52.

Jackson Carlaw said he would not be unhappy if you keep going on about

:56:53.:56:55.

this and the British Government stepped in and said you are not

:56:56.:57:00.

having one. It might not suit the Tories or Jackson Carlaw David

:57:01.:57:03.

Cameron but we live in a democracy and I am entitled to make the case.

:57:04.:57:09.

The point here is a fundamental democratic point. My manifesto said

:57:10.:57:13.

the Scottish Parliament should have the right to propose a referendum if

:57:14.:57:17.

there is evidence that it is the preferred option of the majority of

:57:18.:57:20.

the Scottish people. If what Conservatives are saying, they would

:57:21.:57:26.

stand in a way of a clear majority, it is not me that's on a killer --

:57:27.:57:31.

collision course with the Scottish publishing it is the Tories. We have

:57:32.:57:37.

had referendums in Britain where there is clear -- clearly an issue.

:57:38.:57:47.

We've had a referendum. The way the opinion polls go, that is not the

:57:48.:57:52.

way British politics works. If we end up in a situation where there is

:57:53.:57:54.

clear demand in Scotland for end up in a situation where there is

:57:55.:57:59.

independence and the Tories decide to be a roadblock, then I think the

:58:00.:58:05.

Tories will find themselves with any talk of a recovery, that recovery

:58:06.:58:11.

will come to a juddering halt. You say you want a new campaign for

:58:12.:58:15.

independence starting this summer. I am very unclear what this is. When

:58:16.:58:23.

we launch that campaign in the summer we will be clear what form it

:58:24.:58:31.

takes. I will unveil it in the summer. This is a point I am making

:58:32.:58:38.

with a great degree of humility. Why do I think we need to have a new

:58:39.:58:44.

initiative to persuade people about independence? Because as things

:58:45.:58:48.

stood in the referendum we didn't do enough to persuade a majority. I

:58:49.:58:51.

believe independence is the best each other Scotland. Is this a

:58:52.:58:57.

campaign for another wreck -- referendum? This is a process of

:58:58.:59:11.

listening to people and putting the arguments forward. In a democracy

:59:12.:59:15.

that is the right thing to do. I believe in the strength of my case

:59:16.:59:18.

but I also accept I have to persuade other people. I am per stash

:59:19.:59:25.

prepared to do that patiently. I don't see what anybody would find

:59:26.:59:29.

objectionable that. I was just asking what you are going to do.

:59:30.:59:37.

There is a lot of unhappiness from the other parties. Is that something

:59:38.:59:42.

you would be prepared to say, we will have another look at it? I

:59:43.:59:54.

think Jackson Carlaw was wrong. I will put forward the arguments

:59:55.:59:59.

because they are fundamentally sound. I recognise that we have work

:00:00.:00:06.

to do to address the concerns that some parents have about this. I

:00:07.:00:17.

think some of these concerns are unfounded and they have to make sure

:00:18.:00:19.

think some of these concerns are we address those concerns. Why not

:00:20.:00:24.

do what you did on some legal issues in the last Parliament? We will put

:00:25.:00:31.

this to one side and start another way of doing it. I believe it is the

:00:32.:00:36.

right way of doing it and I can point to the fact it is a policy

:00:37.:00:39.

that is tried and tested. It has been in operation in for local

:00:40.:00:46.

council areas for some time. It is a policy that is tried and tested and

:00:47.:00:51.

think it is right. Nicola Sturgeon, thank you very much.

:00:52.:00:57.

"Self immolation for dummies", was how one former MP described

:00:58.:00:59.

the election platform on which Scottish Labour campaigned.

:01:00.:01:01.

Most in the Scottish party are maintaining public loyalty

:01:02.:01:03.

and rallying round Kezia Dugdale, arguing she needs more time.

:01:04.:01:06.

But there's no doubt that their performance

:01:07.:01:07.

on Thursday night was little short of a disaster.

:01:08.:01:10.

Squeezed between the SNP and the Tories, the party

:01:11.:01:12.

was reduced to twenty four MSPs and pushed into third place

:01:13.:01:14.

James Kelly who was re-elected on the Glasgow list,

:01:15.:01:18.

said he believed they had fought an energetic campaign focused

:01:19.:01:20.

on the protection of public services and how to fund them.

:01:21.:01:31.

If we are honest about it it was a disappointing result for the Labour

:01:32.:01:42.

Party. We have two face up to the circumstances we are in. But you

:01:43.:01:46.

Party. We have two face up to the were pretty confident he would still

:01:47.:01:49.

be the main opposition party. Yes but the reality is that is a

:01:50.:01:53.

fundamental challenge we have is Labour Party and it is a widespread

:01:54.:01:57.

one and no matter what we said I don't think the people of Scotland

:01:58.:02:00.

at this moment are ready and willing to listen to us. That is a challenge

:02:01.:02:05.

for the party going forward. Should it go forward and the care they are

:02:06.:02:12.

the deal? Definitely. She is a confident and able leader. I think

:02:13.:02:17.

she deserves the time to take the party forward. You might believe

:02:18.:02:22.

that but the trouble is the Scottish voters don't. It is difficult to say

:02:23.:02:27.

that. The challenge we got the party is we should not allow our

:02:28.:02:31.

opposition to define or problems for us. Secondly we have to look at the

:02:32.:02:38.

big issues and that is not about personalities, this is a long-term

:02:39.:02:42.

problem with the Labour Party has had since 2003. Can you really see

:02:43.:02:51.

tested the deal leading the party into another election? Yes because

:02:52.:03:00.

the reality is we have campaigned to be the opposition. That is all the

:03:01.:03:06.

Conservatives can ever be. The only people who can defeat the SNP and

:03:07.:03:10.

former government at some point in the future is the Scottish Labour

:03:11.:03:20.

Party. She is the right person to do that wouldn't take us forward. The

:03:21.:03:23.

key challenge for the Labour Party as we have defined that fundamental

:03:24.:03:27.

cause. You can ask me today what the cause of the Labour Party is, I am a

:03:28.:03:33.

passionate socialist and I want to fight injustice and eradicate

:03:34.:03:38.

poverty but Scottish people want to know what it means for me. The

:03:39.:03:45.

Tories have cause. The SNP has a cause which is independence. We have

:03:46.:03:55.

to find that same passion and cause. A lot of people will say the problem

:03:56.:04:02.

with Labour at the moment is what is the Labour Party for? And you have

:04:03.:04:08.

in so many words said that you don't have a clue. No, of course I know

:04:09.:04:15.

what the Labour Party is for. We have defined who we stand with but

:04:16.:04:19.

the challenge is finding that caused to get people passionately behind

:04:20.:04:26.

it. You are telling me to days after an election in which you got

:04:27.:04:31.

walloped that you need to find a cause. You should have thought about

:04:32.:04:37.

that awhile ago. My cause will always be to fight inequality and

:04:38.:04:40.

create opportunity and fight against injustice but up against a situation

:04:41.:04:46.

where we have Unionism versus nationalism that is a real difficult

:04:47.:04:50.

question for the Labour Party. The reality is we are not comfortable

:04:51.:04:53.

nationalists and we are not comfortable Unionists.

:04:54.:04:59.

I genuinely believe... How do you sort the problem out? One thing

:05:00.:05:10.

affecting you is this ambivalence towards independence which you

:05:11.:05:15.

articulated, Kezia Dugdale, her attitude depended which interview

:05:16.:05:22.

she was doing and people but that on what has become a decisive issue in

:05:23.:05:26.

Scottish politics, Labour do not seem to know where they are. There

:05:27.:05:31.

is no ambivalence, we are proud of our stance in the referendum and

:05:32.:05:37.

campaigned... When your leader tells interviewer she might vote for

:05:38.:05:41.

independence if Scotland voted to stay in the EU but Britain voted to

:05:42.:05:46.

leave, your leader says she might vote for independence, no matter how

:05:47.:05:50.

much afterwards she says she did not know what got into her, that is not

:05:51.:05:57.

unambiguous. She has said we will not support any referendum in this

:05:58.:06:02.

Parliament. She campaigned passionately and was campaigning for

:06:03.:06:08.

the UK but the challenge we have is firstly we tried and perhaps too

:06:09.:06:13.

early to move past the referendum, unless we transform our country I do

:06:14.:06:17.

not think the electorate is there yet, the yes or no question... Let

:06:18.:06:27.

me be clear, the biggest threat to the UK is not the Scottish National

:06:28.:06:30.

Party, it is the Conservatives and the actions of David Cameron and the

:06:31.:06:35.

Tories that putting the UK under threat. The trouble is Kezia Dugdale

:06:36.:06:40.

came out with this line you came out with about how you moved too far

:06:41.:06:43.

ahead, you are coming dangerously close to saying that Labour was

:06:44.:06:50.

failed by the people of Scotland. Far from it, what I'm saying is more

:06:51.:06:56.

difficult than that for Labour. This is a greater challenge for us, it

:06:57.:07:00.

does not need tinkering at the edges of who individuals are, it is not

:07:01.:07:07.

tinkering of politics but we have a fundamental in Scotland where the

:07:08.:07:11.

people are not listening to us right now and we need to be listened to.

:07:12.:07:17.

Ian Murray, your remaining MP in Scotland says part of the problem is

:07:18.:07:23.

Jeremy Corbyn does not present a credible alternative to the Tories

:07:24.:07:26.

as a government in Westminster and that is not helping Labour. We have

:07:27.:07:30.

to present a credible alternative to the Tories in Westminster... I am a

:07:31.:07:38.

fan of Jeremy Corbyn, I like the way he has come forward but we need to

:07:39.:07:41.

do it in a credible way and demonstrate we can defeat the

:07:42.:07:43.

Tories. Thank you. Well, we make no apology for looking

:07:44.:07:46.

back at the week just past, as well as looking forward

:07:47.:07:49.

to the Week Ahead. To help me do that

:07:50.:07:58.

we've got two guests - Severin Carrell, who is the Scotland

:07:59.:08:01.

editor at the Guardian, It seems odd starting with those who

:08:02.:08:11.

lost most but I wanted to ask you about that can rent when he said the

:08:12.:08:17.

problem with Labour is they're not comfortable nationally -- comment

:08:18.:08:21.

and not comfortable unionists. Quite an extraordinary thing for someone

:08:22.:08:25.

to say. It is the great conundrum and challenge Scottish Labour face

:08:26.:08:29.

because Kezia Dugdale is adamant she has to lead an autonomous party that

:08:30.:08:34.

talks to Scotland and fights on Scottish affairs for Scotland. At

:08:35.:08:38.

the same time they have to portray themselves as part of a family of

:08:39.:08:43.

parties across the UK. They are trapped by language and these two

:08:44.:08:48.

great tensions between the large group of Labour politicians, David

:08:49.:08:54.

Martin and others who say the Scottish Labour Party has do advance

:08:55.:08:56.

home-rule agenda and be more positive about increased Scottish

:08:57.:09:02.

powers, federal agenda but also those who want to focus more on

:09:03.:09:07.

domestic day-to-day politics. It is a question of language. They are not

:09:08.:09:12.

Unionists because they set up a devolved parliament, they have a

:09:13.:09:16.

long long heritage of believing in campaigning for Scottish home rule

:09:17.:09:17.

in the UK and they are not campaigning for Scottish home rule

:09:18.:09:21.

nationalists so they do have a problem about how they frame what

:09:22.:09:24.

they want to offer. They need to sort that out. You could presumably

:09:25.:09:30.

try to seize home rule a own agenda by making it quite clear you do not

:09:31.:09:34.

want to see the break up of the UK. The Lib Dems, that has been their

:09:35.:09:38.

policy for decades. Why does Labour have such difficulty? This is as

:09:39.:09:44.

much to do with the confidence voters have in the overall package,

:09:45.:09:50.

look at the tax issue Kezia Dugdale was arguing forcefully for, it did

:09:51.:09:54.

not make a jot of difference to the Labour Party vote in the final

:09:55.:09:58.

outcome because people might like the product, they may not want the

:09:59.:10:01.

manufacturer. They may not have enough trust in the person offering

:10:02.:10:08.

the product and that'll be a problem for the constitutional issue. The

:10:09.:10:13.

other Labour problem is what they were campaigning for was a solution

:10:14.:10:19.

arrived at by all parties, the Smith commission was pretty much a

:10:20.:10:22.

mutually agreed package that all the parties participated in, including

:10:23.:10:27.

the SNP. The previous proposals and commission was a deal, a deeply

:10:28.:10:33.

flawed proposition but it was arrived at through a process of

:10:34.:10:37.

conversations, the Lib Dems and conservatives. The Labour Party have

:10:38.:10:43.

the space now and the challenge, the absolute requirement to go out and

:10:44.:10:48.

start strike out, do some blue sky thinking, new ground and fresh

:10:49.:10:54.

territory. OK, the SNP won, they did not win out right. Nicola Sturgeon

:10:55.:10:58.

seemed adamant that she still thought she could pretty much do

:10:59.:11:03.

what she wanted. I think she still has the whip hand. That is the case.

:11:04.:11:08.

She is correct to say at the end of the parliament they only had 64

:11:09.:11:13.

MSPs, 63 now. The beauty of the position is they have two smaller

:11:14.:11:18.

parties both which can get as near as dammit to a majority. The

:11:19.:11:23.

Scottish Greens are the more natural part is that the SNP because part of

:11:24.:11:27.

the challenge for Nicola Sturgeon is it is clear a lot of SNP voters gave

:11:28.:11:32.

the Scottish Greens their second vote. That 5%, 5-point difference

:11:33.:11:38.

between what the SNP got on the constituency vote and regionally

:11:39.:11:45.

went to the Scottish Greens. So, one assumes many SNP activists and

:11:46.:11:49.

voters would say Nicola you need to stick to pat -- speak to Patrick

:11:50.:11:53.

press. The Lib Dems will want to come back as well. Willie Rennie

:11:54.:11:58.

will want to assert his party position and role. What about

:11:59.:12:02.

independence? Is what Nicola Sturgeon said about not ruling it

:12:03.:12:06.

out, is as brave words or is there any possibility now of a second

:12:07.:12:12.

referendum? It is diminished. We do not know what will happen with

:12:13.:12:17.

Brexit and other things on issues around the Tory party or whatever

:12:18.:12:24.

but as things stand, no, it has diminished. Nicola Haseler and

:12:25.:12:27.

balancing act, her intentions. She has two keep our rank and file SNP

:12:28.:12:36.

members and again 25% of the Scottish population voted for her on

:12:37.:12:40.

Thursday, happy and confident they have a party that will push on the

:12:41.:12:45.

big issue the SNP are most clearly aligned with and that is

:12:46.:12:49.

independence. On the politics of it, the economics, they are looking

:12:50.:12:52.

really really difficult and I cannot see anything other... Is a new

:12:53.:12:58.

problem that the SNP have to keep happy all these people in the seats

:12:59.:13:03.

they won in Glasgow who may agree more with Labour on tax but also how

:13:04.:13:06.

a problem that the vote more with Labour on tax but also how

:13:07.:13:12.

declining, it is not haemorrhaging but in nutritional areas they are

:13:13.:13:16.

losing out to the Tories say they need to worry about these things.

:13:17.:13:22.

There is a problem, the first minister was right to say we have 63

:13:23.:13:30.

MSPs, 64 but if you look at the numbers in the constituency is the

:13:31.:13:35.

SNP share of the vote fell proportionally in as many as 30 of

:13:36.:13:40.

the 60 seats they won. They have not had a brilliant election by any

:13:41.:13:45.

means. It has been very very good but not as successful as 2011. We

:13:46.:13:48.

must leave it there. I'll be back at the

:13:49.:13:49.

same time next week.

:13:50.:13:54.

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