Browse content similar to 15/05/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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comparing the mission of the European Union with | :00:40. | :00:46. | |
what Hitler was trying to achieve - has the Leave campaign's self-styled | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
Churchillian attack dog gone too far? | :00:50. | :00:56. | |
He says leaving the European Union | :00:57. | :00:57. | |
will improve the lives of the "have nots" - | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
but is the man who presided over billions of pounds of welfare | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
cuts really on the side of working people? | :01:04. | :01:04. | |
Reducing the powers of the House of Lords | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
would not be acceptable, says the woman charged with keeping order | :01:10. | :01:11. | |
in the upper house - but with 60 government defeats | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
in the last year alone have their Lord and Ladyships | :01:15. | :01:16. | |
And coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland: | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
As the dust settles on the Scottish election, we'll be speaking live | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
to the Greens' Patrick Harvie about his party's plans and policies | :01:26. | :01:27. | |
And with me - as always - three journalists who'd have been | :01:28. | :01:43. | |
sure to win the Eurovision political punditry contest: Helen Lewis, | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
Isabel Oakeshott and Amol Rajan who'll be tweeting throughout | :01:47. | :01:48. | |
So earlier in the week the Prime Minister warned that | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
leaving the EU could precipitate armed conflict in Europe. | :01:55. | :01:56. | |
Today, Boris Johnson hits back, comparing the European Union | :01:57. | :01:58. | |
to Hitler in an interview with the Sunday Telegraph: | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
"Napoleon, Hitler, various people tried this out, | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
The EU is an attempt to do this by different methods." | :02:05. | :02:22. | |
Boris goes on to say "The euro has become a means by which superior | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
German productivity is able to gain an absolutely unbeatable advantage | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
Could you organise an ordinance that British politicians should just shut | :02:29. | :02:45. | |
up about Hitler? It is an interesting one, the campaign are | :02:46. | :02:52. | |
getting quite grumpy, saying that he was not really talking about Hitler. | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
Boris is to clever not to know that if you mention Napoleon and Hitler | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
people will write headlines. He is a columnist and he knows this. It is | :03:03. | :03:11. | |
bizarre. It was Sadiq Khan sitting at home thinking he was the only | :03:12. | :03:19. | |
London mayor was not mentioned Hitler? The campaign has become | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
quite personal, it is about David Cameron's relationship with them, | :03:25. | :03:31. | |
and whether he has a hope of becoming leader. And as always like | :03:32. | :03:41. | |
to make things personal. It does not surprisingly in the slightest that | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
it is becoming more personal as the clock ticks towards the key date. On | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
Boris Johnson's comments, absolutely agree with Helen but no good can | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
come of a politician mentioning Hitler, but the reaction to the | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
remarks has been rather hysterical. If anyone bothers reading the | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
context... In the context. The Mac was an absolutely reasonable | :04:09. | :04:17. | |
statement of historical fact. We should not get to a point where | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
nobody can mention anything historical without it creating a | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
ridiculous action. I don't think it will be arise if it helps them win | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
votes. He fancies herself as an inherent to Winston Churchill, it | :04:33. | :04:40. | |
was in store. In your dreams, if the copy had come in and you had seen | :04:41. | :04:47. | |
the word logo might think you have a chance for a headline. Ever since | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
the collapse of the Roman Empire there have been attempts to unify | :04:54. | :05:05. | |
Europe. In a way, the Germans have that... There was a slight | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
difference in having endless pragmatic committees and ruling | :05:12. | :05:13. | |
tanks and to Poland. By different means is quite different. He was | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
arguing it was an attempt to unify Europe, it is bundled together | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
different ideas. It is a bit of a stretch. But overstretch! I think | :05:26. | :05:34. | |
there was a real danger... And what is the European Union, parable? | :05:35. | :05:44. | |
People support Brexit would say it was an attempt to build a European | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
super structure without a Democratic base. Democratic nations. It is | :05:49. | :05:56. | |
completely reasonable. Ireland begins to cover girl to make | :05:57. | :05:59. | |
important arguments about historical trends. Butler was Fromer remark. | :06:00. | :06:08. | |
He only mentioned Napoleon. Maybe he should have mentioned other leaders. | :06:09. | :06:27. | |
What do you make of the polls, showing neck and neck but they are | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
so far ahead in the economic argument, and that is why we will | :06:34. | :06:42. | |
win. They always hoped that. The evidence is that people put the | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
economy as the highest concern. What the Leave campaign is trying to do, | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
we've seen this from Nigel Farage, make the point that this is not just | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
about GDP, a few extra pounds in your pocket. The Leave campaign will | :07:01. | :07:08. | |
be hoping to highlight the question of what this means for society. | :07:09. | :07:15. | |
Now - would leaving the European Union be good | :07:16. | :07:17. | |
for the poor and disadvantaged in Britain? | :07:18. | :07:19. | |
That's the case that's being made by the former Work | :07:20. | :07:21. | |
and Pension Secretary Iain Duncan Smith. | :07:22. | :07:23. | |
I will be talking to him in a moment. | :07:24. | :07:25. | |
But first let's hear the warnings earlier this week about | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
the short-term impact of Brexit on the economy | :07:29. | :07:29. | |
from the Governor Bank of England, Mark Carney. | :07:30. | :07:37. | |
A vote to leave the European Union could have material economic effects | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
on the exchange rate, on demand, and on the economy's | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
So, this combination of influences on demand, | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
supply and the exchange rate could lead to a materially lower | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
path for growth and a notably higher path for inflation | :07:52. | :08:03. | |
than in the central projections set out in today's | :08:04. | :08:05. | |
Welcome back to the Sunday Politics. You've claimed that leaving the EU | :08:06. | :08:21. | |
would be good for the have nots but the Governor of the Bank of England | :08:22. | :08:28. | |
says it could lead to recession, inflation, unemployment. That could | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
be bad. If all the predictions were right. Every single one of these | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
predictions is done by groups of people who've got most of their | :08:38. | :08:39. | |
predictions wrong. The point I would make to you, the Treasury prediction | :08:40. | :08:50. | |
and the IMS prediction all show that if Britain left the EU the economy | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
would grow. Their argument is it would not grow as fast but how you | :08:56. | :09:02. | |
can predict a 0.6% variation is beyond me. He was the point I really | :09:03. | :09:15. | |
believe about the bank, which is where I find this very back. I think | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
the bank, the governor has strayed into an expression of a simple, | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
personal prediction. I don't think it is actually possible for you to | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
say with any absolute accuracy that that will happen. In a sense, when | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
you listen to what he said, he started to nuance about the idea, he | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
was not seeing it actually would be comic he said he thought it could be | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
about that. Here is my point about the independence of the Bank of | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
England. Section ten of the 1998 act makes it very clear that if he is to | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
talk about monetary policies, for which he has independence, he has to | :09:52. | :09:57. | |
be open, impartial and all things must be available. Last year, in | :09:58. | :10:05. | |
2015, when he spoke about the threat to the British economy, he made the | :10:06. | :10:08. | |
point which Mervyn King has made that the euro instability and the | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
crash has been very damaging to the British economy and will be even | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
more damaging as it goes on. Notice that when he came out on Thursday he | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
said nothing about the overall problems if we remained in. If | :10:23. | :10:32. | |
you're going to be impartial then you had damned well better say | :10:33. | :10:35. | |
something about the alternative case and the threats of remaining are | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
very clear. Mervyn King said there is a crisis going on and he does not | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
see an end to it. Why don't we hear from him about that? Has he breached | :10:48. | :10:56. | |
his obligations as Governor of the Bank of England? I believe that he | :10:57. | :11:04. | |
has. Should he resign? I think he ought to be asked why he has not | :11:05. | :11:11. | |
brought out both sides of the issue. He used to work for Goldman Sachs. | :11:12. | :11:17. | |
They are running through this, funding the campaign, he has been | :11:18. | :11:27. | |
very clear on it. You bring out Goldman Sachs, lack of impartiality, | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
you think he is not keeping his remit, should he resign? I think he | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
needs to answer about this one simple charge. I would like to see | :11:38. | :11:44. | |
the e-mail exchange over this issue, the telephone conversation minutes, | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
to see whether the Treasury has had any involvement in this process | :11:51. | :11:53. | |
whatsoever, what worries me slightly about what is going on, the Bank of | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
Scotland comes out on Thursday and then suddenly the head of the IMF | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
comes out on Friday with a similar prediction. These are the same | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
people that were telling us all that the UK is too small to leave and too | :12:10. | :12:15. | |
insignificant. Now we are so insignificant that we are plunging | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
the world into an economic crash. Are we saying this was an accident? | :12:20. | :12:29. | |
The governor did not call? Let me ask you this, we know what made... | :12:30. | :12:37. | |
Are you saying they are colluding? I wonder. Do you have any evidence? | :12:38. | :12:45. | |
Suddenly on Wednesday and Thursday, you have reports coming out, do you | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
think they spoke to each other about what they are doing? I wonder about | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
that. The Chancellor is supporting the governor, he then stands behind | :12:55. | :13:02. | |
Christine Lagarde. We know that they are players in this. The IMF always | :13:03. | :13:11. | |
works with them. We know which major economic authorities you don't like. | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
The Treasury, the IMF, the Bank of England, the OECD, which major | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
economic authorities do you rate? There have been some good reports | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
out, there are a number of good economists, lots of others from the | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
city who have produced a report which got very little coverage about | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
the prospect... Any major economic apologies? Yes but when they have | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
come out with these reports they have said the UK would continue to | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
grow. Not as quickly. Not as quickly. My point is if you're going | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
to be balanced you need to constantly reference that point and | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
if they want to say that there is a possibility this could lead to a | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
problem he must also point out that if we remain there is a possibility | :13:58. | :14:04. | |
that we will be damaged by this. You made that .3 times. Let me ask you, | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
can you name a major economic authority on your side of the | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
argument? I would not expect one to be on our side. So you have none? It | :14:15. | :14:22. | |
would be completely unusual for all these institutions not to want to | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
act the status quo. All these institutions said there was no | :14:27. | :14:32. | |
problem in 2007 and then one year later we hit the buffers and the | :14:33. | :14:40. | |
economy went down. None of them predicted it. Including the | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
Conservatives. None of them have apologised for their failure. | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
I want to show you this chart. This shows our balance of payments, our | :14:52. | :14:59. | |
deficit. It is the difference between our exports and imports. We | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
import a lot more than we export in goods and services. It has | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
continually got worse under your government. This deficit, which is | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
multi-billion, is financed by foreigners who buy our sterling as I | :15:15. | :15:22. | |
to make up the gap. If Brexit create a falling pound, why would the | :15:23. | :15:25. | |
foreigners continue to pay for our deficit? If the economy didn't | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
perform, why would be, but if you look at all those who predicted | :15:32. | :15:34. | |
where we would be now, they all said the threat of Brexit would actually | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
bring the pound crashing. The pound is now rising back up, close to | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
where it was when we started this campaign. 10% on last November. We | :15:44. | :15:51. | |
had this deficit, it is financed by foreigners. If they lose confidence | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
in this country, confidence in Stirling, how do we pay for this? We | :15:56. | :16:02. | |
have to make sure we run the economy in a way that they have confidence | :16:03. | :16:05. | |
in it, we have to get some of those regulations down, we have to make | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
British industry more competitive. We have to have a better plan to get | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
industry working again. That would be in the long term, this could be a | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
short-term problem that could hit in the summer. If it results leaving in | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
an uncontrolled, plummeting sterling, and the foreigners because | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
of the uncertainty and sterling going down are saying we are not | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
going to continue to finance it, the bank would have to raise interest | :16:32. | :16:38. | |
rates, wouldn't it? If that was the circumstance, yes, but it is what | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
you plan to do. Why are they investing in what we are doing at | :16:43. | :16:50. | |
the moment? They buy the bonds because they believe the Government | :16:51. | :16:53. | |
has a long-term plan to get the deficit down and reduce borrowing. | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
Therefore they believe the UK is a good investment and running a trade | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
surplus with the rest of the world. We are running a huge deficit. Yes, | :17:04. | :17:10. | |
but we are running a trade surplus. If they need to finance this | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
deficit, and it is not the budget deficit, it is how the foreigners by | :17:15. | :17:21. | |
our assets in order to help us run this deficit. If interest rate did | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
rise, it follows that mortgage rates could rise substantially. Yes but | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
the alternative could be the same, in other words if they believe what | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
we are doing is right for the economy they are prepared to back | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
it, which means you wouldn't have rising interest rates. All of this | :17:41. | :17:43. | |
is speculation because we don't know. Boris Johnson has admitted | :17:44. | :17:50. | |
that after Brexit there would be a Nike tick, that he believes the | :17:51. | :17:58. | |
economy would take a hit, but it would recover strongly. Do you | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
believe that? Possibly but this is speculation about something nobody | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
knows. There has been speculation about forecast in these economies, | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
most of them are wrong because people are unable to tell us about | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
what they think about our prospects afterwards. If we vote to leave, we | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
are already able to show we can get our money back in due course and we | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
are able to start planning our own economy so we are able to get the | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
kind of deals we need. That shows you have a plan that works. You | :18:30. | :18:35. | |
could offer short-term crisis in the interim, couldn't you? They are | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
worried whether their mortgage will have risen by August or September of | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
this year. If that were to happen but the word is if. This is pure | :18:46. | :18:52. | |
speculation. The point I am making is that the reality is it may go in | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
the opposite direction. Nobody can say that. The EU guarantees a number | :18:57. | :19:03. | |
of social protections for workers, covering things like equal pay, | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
working time, maternity pay. Can you pledged to fight to maintain all of | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
these protections if we leave? All of these were accepted by the | :19:15. | :19:17. | |
Conservative government and I believe strongly then need to be | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
protections for workers. All of these things in a democracy are | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
debated but the British government have actually themselves instituted | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
protections for workers. So would you fight to keep the protections | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
they currently have under EU guarantees? As it stands, yes. Why | :19:36. | :19:43. | |
should people trust you because you opposed the Web Time directive in | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
1996, and voted against the minimum wage in 1997. Why would they have | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
not looked to you for this social protection? Because rather than | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
forecast ahead, look back at what has happened to them. The | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
immigration has damaged them. I'm simply saying what has happened, | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
therefore my argument has been, and you have known that over a long | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
time, over nine years I have argued this process has been most damaging | :20:14. | :20:16. | |
to the people at the low skilled end. That is the migration issue, it | :20:17. | :20:25. | |
may well be true. I'm asking you why should people trust you on these EU | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
social protections that they would remain if we came out since you | :20:30. | :20:32. | |
voted against them when they were being proposed? The working Time | :20:33. | :20:39. | |
directive gave little or no flexibility at the time. It has been | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
in place and we had to work with it. You protect the workforce but you | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
make sure the competition that they face in terms of their jobs is | :20:49. | :20:54. | |
actually fair competition, not unfair competition. What has | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
happened, as you saw on Thursday with the national insurance numbers, | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
is a very high proportion of people coming in in under 52 weeks here who | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
have no commitment to the UK often staying in bed sits, compete on the | :21:08. | :21:15. | |
low salary end of life. Is the working Time directive, which | :21:16. | :21:18. | |
guarantees the hours people work in a week and proper breaks, is that | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
guarantees the hours people work in safe after Brexit or not? UK law | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
would enshrine what we think is best for protection of workforce and that | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
is right. A democratic government will decide on what it thinks is | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
right. That is possible for Labour or Conservative. I believe it is | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
right to have it, the question is how flexible... People watching this | :21:41. | :21:48. | |
will not be reassured by this. I will stick to the agreements we | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
have. You point your fist in the Commons when the Chancellor | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
announced the new national living wage, now you say it is a magnet for | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
migrants, what changed? I said it is a good people for people wanting to | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
come and work here because they will get a higher wage. I am wholly in | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
favour of a rise to the minimum wage because I believe that over time | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
what happens to businesses is they have got around paying lower | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
wages... Would you still be in favour of it if we stayed in the EU? | :22:25. | :22:31. | |
Yes, because it is the best way you can drive the wages up but if we | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
stay in the EU it will become a magnet for people to come in here | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
and it will lead to huge problems. The point I made on Tuesday this | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
week was that have we have seen already lots of people from the EU | :22:44. | :22:50. | |
tend to come in. The vast majority of people coming from the European | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
Union into the UK, they tend to be low skills, they tend to be ones | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
taking a high proportion of those low skilled jobs. They have taken | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
them at lesser salary and driven it down. The overall average wage will | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
still be low for those on low skills. You have brought up | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
migration several times in this interview, isn't the blunt truth, | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
because I was asking about the economics, you are losing the | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
economic arguments, the polls show that, you are more dependent on | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
scaring people. John Major says: What do you say? Rubbish. Very | :23:28. | :23:46. | |
simple, he is talking nonsense. He said only a few years ago that there | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
was a real issue over immigration. The Government had a target to get | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
tens of thousands, the limit down to tens of thousands, we are not | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
achieving that. We talked about it in the run-up to the election. The | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
Prime Minister himself made a strong commitment that we would ensure our | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
borders were protected against people coming to be here so it is | :24:10. | :24:12. | |
nonsense because we are not raising this is an issue because we are | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
trying to win the referendum. Most people in the country believes there | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
is an issue about the open border with the European Union. Why is it | :24:22. | :24:32. | |
demagoguery, why is it extremism to speak for British people who feel | :24:33. | :24:35. | |
like their views are being tossed aside? If you don't do it, the | :24:36. | :24:38. | |
extreme parties get onto it. Was it wise Boris Johnson to compare the | :24:39. | :24:45. | |
EU's ambitions? I thought it was a good article because he spoke about | :24:46. | :24:51. | |
this nonsensical... Was it wise to compare it with Hitler? Do you think | :24:52. | :24:58. | |
Hitler's efforts to unify Europe are the same as the European Union's | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
efforts? I think the whole process of trying to drive Europe together | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
by force or democracy ultimately makes problems. Isn't this | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
referendum getting vaguely absurd? We have the Prime Minister dangling | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
the thought of world War three if we leave, and on your side we have | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
Boris Johnson saying Hitler and the European Union are on the same | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
script. It is both nonsense and you know that. All he is doing in the | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
interview is talking about the trend towards the idea, and he's using | :25:33. | :25:42. | |
historical parallels to explain it. You go through this great idea that | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
somehow there is a thing called greater Europe. Whether or not you | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
like the linguistics of this, my point remains the same. If you vote | :25:51. | :25:57. | |
to remain on the 23rd, you are voting, the 12 residents said it | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
clear that they intend to deepen... The five presidents. The five | :26:03. | :26:12. | |
presidents rather. David Cameron and George Osborne won't debate other | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
Tory ministers during the referendum, are they concerned about | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
party unity or just running scared? You will have to ask them. My view | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
about it is that it is right to have a proper debate and by not opening | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
that debate the British public will be left to wonder why they were not | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
allowed to see the two opposing sides of the argument from the | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
leading figures. You would debate the Prime Minister? Yes, we need to | :26:39. | :26:44. | |
get these things straight face-to-face. After all, if this | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
were an election would be Remain side be allowed to say we won't | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
debate Ed Miliband fustian might know, they cannot do that. There are | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
two side to this argument, if two sides have to debate it that is | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
right and proper. It should be down to impartiality that we have two | :27:06. | :27:11. | |
sides, the two sets of leaders. Iain Duncan Smith, thank you. | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
Now, the Commons are elected, the House of Lords are not | :27:16. | :27:18. | |
and is supposed to be a "revising chamber". | :27:19. | :27:20. | |
But have their lord and ladyships been overstepping the mark? | :27:21. | :27:22. | |
Over the the past year, they've inflicted 60 defeats | :27:23. | :27:24. | |
on a Government that's now poised to clip the Lord's wings - | :27:25. | :27:27. | |
reducing their power to block changes in the law. | :27:28. | :27:29. | |
But in an exclusive interview before she steps down as the speaker | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
of the House of Lords in the summer, Baroness D'Souza has told us | :27:33. | :27:35. | |
that the powers of the Lords should not be curtailed. | :27:36. | :27:38. | |
It's very obvious why they are called the crossbenchers, | :27:39. | :27:46. | |
My guide knows this place pretty well, how it works, who's who. | :27:47. | :27:53. | |
Since 2011, she's been Lord Speaker, a role which involves | :27:54. | :27:55. | |
overseeing proceedings here, representing the Lords at home | :27:56. | :27:57. | |
and abroad, and sitting on a sack of wool. | :27:58. | :28:03. | |
But the business in here over which Baroness D'Souza presides has | :28:04. | :28:10. | |
come under increasing criticism from the Government. | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
247 members of the House of Lords sit as Conservatives peers, | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
making the governing party a significant minority of the 807 | :28:18. | :28:19. | |
members eligible to take part in the Upper House. | :28:20. | :28:26. | |
The Government has faced 60 defeats in the House of Lords in the most | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
The rate of defeats this time round is more than twice that | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
Then, the Government was defeated in less than a quarter | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
of votes compared to more than half in the present one. | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
Now there's a sense that the Lords are too rebellious, they have been | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
too rebellious over the last few years and essentially the Lords | :28:49. | :28:50. | |
You know, all governments and all parliamentarians, | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
or at least House of Commons, always feel that the House of Lords | :28:55. | :29:01. | |
is a place that thwarts them in one way or another. | :29:02. | :29:04. | |
And they're right, they do, but that is in the nature | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
They have all the power and rightly so. | :29:10. | :29:17. | |
I still think it's right that the Lords should be free | :29:18. | :29:20. | |
to scrutinise and to question and to hold the Government | :29:21. | :29:23. | |
to account, and to send back legislation which it feels is not | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
adequate, either in terms of its clarity or because perhaps it | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
infringes from time to time individual liberties | :29:33. | :29:34. | |
And that's exactly what happened last October. | :29:35. | :29:41. | |
The House of Lords effectively blocked the Government's proposed | :29:42. | :29:43. | |
changes to tax credits, a massive blow to George | :29:44. | :29:46. | |
Unelected Labour and Liberal Lords have voted down a matter passed | :29:47. | :29:53. | |
by the elected House of Commons, that raises constitutional issues | :29:54. | :29:56. | |
and David Cameron and I are clear they will need to be dealt with. | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
The way they dealt with it was to ask Lord Strathclyde | :30:01. | :30:03. | |
He concluded peers should lose their absolute veto over | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
detailed laws known as secondary legislation, and instead be allowed | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
only to send it back to the Commons to think again. | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
There's going to be a lively debate about this in the House of Lords | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
and I think that there will be a lot of views expressed and obviously | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
you would expect the Lords to want to retain their power | :30:23. | :30:24. | |
to scrutinise their power, their privilege. | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
If you start curtailing or eroding or limiting the power | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
of the Lords to do its job, there is a question | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
There is another question, too, over the sheer number | :30:38. | :30:46. | |
Baroness D'Souza told me she would be pushing for a Lords | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
motion in the new session, she says the House of Lords should | :30:51. | :30:53. | |
not be larger than the Commons, suggesting the number of peers | :30:54. | :30:56. | |
At least 20% of them should be independents or crossbenchers, | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
and no one party should have a political majority. | :31:01. | :31:03. | |
She said all of that can be achieved by 2020. | :31:04. | :31:06. | |
So, the size is making it inefficient? | :31:07. | :31:08. | |
It does have an impact unfortunately on the role of the House of Lords | :31:09. | :31:19. | |
in holding the Government to account. | :31:20. | :31:22. | |
It's very difficult if you're limited to sort of say, | :31:23. | :31:24. | |
in timed debates, a minute or two minutes to speak, to develop | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
a sustained argument which will convince your fellow | :31:28. | :31:29. | |
peers but also the Government of what it is you are | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
The traditional pomp and ceremony of the Lords is well known | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
but its relationship with the Commons and exactly | :31:37. | :31:38. | |
what role it can play in the future is far more uncertain. | :31:39. | :31:45. | |
And the man who was charged by the Government to review | :31:46. | :31:47. | |
the Lord's powers, Tam Strathclyde, joins us now from Oxfordshire. | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
Welcome to the programme. Nice to see the sun is shining rate you are. | :31:53. | :32:01. | |
We've just heard, what would be the point of the Lloyds if the powers | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
are watered down as your review proposes. What do you say to her? | :32:08. | :32:14. | |
There is no suggestion and no recommendation by anybody in | :32:15. | :32:16. | |
government to fundamentally change the powers of the House of Lords. I | :32:17. | :32:24. | |
made the most mild and humble recommendation about process, where | :32:25. | :32:31. | |
frankly most of us had understood that the customs and conventions | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
that had been built up would stick. Last October, they broke down, as a | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
result there is no consensus and agreement on what those powers could | :32:43. | :32:51. | |
be. I propose a new power to be able to reject and ask. What is | :32:52. | :33:00. | |
interesting is every school child knows that the purpose of the House | :33:01. | :33:09. | |
of Lords is to scrutinise but not to block. What happened was the House | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
of Lords using a veto and given it is unelected, I don't think that | :33:16. | :33:21. | |
power should ever be used. Is the government going to implement your | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
recommendations? Since I reported before Christmas there have been | :33:26. | :33:32. | |
four further reports, three in the House of Lords and one in the House | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
of Commons, commenting on this. I think what the government will want | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
to do is look carefully at these reports before responding. I don't | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
think there needs to be a rush to legislation, and there may well be | :33:47. | :33:47. | |
an attempt to get an agreement between the parties in the House of | :33:48. | :33:54. | |
Lords, between the two Houses of Parliament. But if that consensus | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
cannot be reached, I think the government will have no option but | :34:01. | :34:07. | |
to legislate on this matter. Your government has had 60 defeats at the | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
hands of the Lords. You wonder whether the conservative tune has | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
changed because it was Tory peers inflicting defeat on Labour | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
governments. Now you are getting a taste of your own historic medicine, | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
you just don't like it. I was Leader of the Opposition for most of those | :34:26. | :34:36. | |
years, particularly after the end of the last century. We did defeat the | :34:37. | :34:48. | |
government regularly on primary legislation, not secondary | :34:49. | :34:50. | |
legislation. What was interesting in your package is the government has | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
been defeated in the House of Lords many more times than it did in the | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
first Parliament of Tony Blair's government. Over half of all the | :35:01. | :35:06. | |
votes in the House of Lords are defeated. This is not revision and | :35:07. | :35:10. | |
scrutiny, this is not complementing the work of the House of Commons, | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
this is an aggressive political statement why the other political | :35:16. | :35:21. | |
parties. Is it really? This is a government which increasingly brings | :35:22. | :35:23. | |
forward ill thought out ideas which it has not planned in advance, not | :35:24. | :35:31. | |
without consultation, and is forced into U-turns. There has been a | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
series of them. That is why you need a second chamber, to do proper | :35:36. | :35:42. | |
scrutiny. I am the greatest defender of the second chamber and indeed, a | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
Conservative Party that fully understands the central tenets of | :35:48. | :35:54. | |
the Constitution, the balance between the houses, but what we've | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
seen in the last 12 months, and remember, this is the first 12 | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
months of a new conservative administration, people who were | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
elected to government, scarcely one year ago, and what we've seen in the | :36:07. | :36:13. | |
House of Lords are blocking tactics, using vetoes rather than working | :36:14. | :36:16. | |
with the House of Commons in order to improve that legislation which | :36:17. | :36:24. | |
you rightly criticise. Are you a supporter of the way that | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
governments have bloated the House of Lords? There are over 800 active | :36:29. | :36:34. | |
peers. The US Senate needs 100 and it has real power. You've not got | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
much power and those over 800 of you. Is that sensible? When Mr Blair | :36:39. | :36:46. | |
and his friends throughout the hereditary peers in the 1990s I did | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
argue that there was an inevitable consequence that prime ministers | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
would try to increase their own numbers in the house. What's | :36:56. | :36:58. | |
interesting about Mr Cameron is he has created far more Labour peers. | :36:59. | :37:11. | |
Wide of the need to be 800 of you? You don't. -- why does there need to | :37:12. | :37:19. | |
be 800. But those who want to reduce it to 500 should say how they plan | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
to do that. I would prefer either people to be involved in the | :37:24. | :37:26. | |
decision and they should be directly elected. Thank you for joining us. | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :37:31. | :37:32. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now | :37:33. | :37:41. | |
Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. | :37:42. | :37:43. | |
We'll be speaking live to the Greens' Patrick Harvie | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
about how his MSPs will approach their role in the new parliament, | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
With the Holyrood election over, the next choice before voters - | :37:51. | :37:56. | |
We'll debate the case for and against Brexit, | :37:57. | :38:07. | |
And we'll meet a couple of the new faces who've joined | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
The dust is settling on the result of just over a week ago. | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
The Greens trebled their number of MSPs from two in the last | :38:17. | :38:19. | |
Not quite matching the peak of seven they held from 2003, | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
And they've displaced the Liberal Democrats | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
I'm joined now by the co-convenor of the Scottish Greens, Patrick Harvie. | :38:28. | :38:34. | |
Tell us what is going on. You had a meeting with Nicola Sturgeon this | :38:35. | :38:44. | |
week. I had a brief meeting, nothing terribly formal, the kind of thing | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
that happened for months even during the period of majority government. | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
Political parties talk about things all the time. Presumably were | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
talking about cooperation in the new parliament. I think the dynamic will | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
change. It will not be quite the same as the previous minority | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
government when the SNP were in deep minority and unless they could get a | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
deal with Labour on any issue they had to reach out to build consensus | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
with any two out of the three other parties. It is a slightly more | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
straightforward situation now where the SNP only have to persuade one | :39:23. | :39:30. | |
party to vote or abstain. If political parties go around | :39:31. | :39:32. | |
posturing saying they will block this or that they will not get far. | :39:33. | :39:40. | |
Opposition parties will be influential by being constructive. | :39:41. | :39:47. | |
Are you considering even a semiformal arrangement with the SNP | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
or will you judge everything issue by issue? Semiformal arrangements | :39:51. | :40:01. | |
aren't even been discussed. I think the Friday after the election the | :40:02. | :40:08. | |
first minister said clearly they would not seek an arrangement with | :40:09. | :40:15. | |
another party. I think the SNP's position is clear, to be a menorah | :40:16. | :40:18. | |
take government with great flexibility. I suspect if you were | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
in their shoes you wouldn't be seeking to tie yourself to a | :40:24. | :40:26. | |
relationship with just one party. That's why think it is going to be | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
about positivity and constructivist opposition parties will conduct | :40:31. | :40:40. | |
themselves. Is it theoretically possible you could put the | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
Government down whether other opposition parties? Can you see | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
yourself taking part in something like a vote of no-confidence? I | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
think there would have to be an astonishing breach of trust to | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
justify a vote of no-confidence. I think it is a little early to be | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
talking about events that cataclysmic. Over the next few weeks | :41:02. | :41:09. | |
and months I think we will see times where opposition parties may have | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
common ground, such as Parliamentary reform. One issue that came up this | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
week, cutting off air passenger duty. As far as I understand the SNP | :41:20. | :41:27. | |
want to do what the SNP want to do. Presently, as proposed by the | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
Scottish Government, is that policy toast? They do not have a majority | :41:32. | :41:41. | |
for their position, scrapping the duty. That is why I come back to the | :41:42. | :41:53. | |
idea of it being constructive. It is not an effective environmental tax | :41:54. | :41:56. | |
in the first place, air passenger duty. One option is that we can find | :41:57. | :42:03. | |
an alternative policy which can command a parliamentary majority, | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
which passes the test of emissions and social justice. How could you | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
cut duty in a way that actually reduces emissions? Perhaps it is | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
about one of the ideas the new economics foundation talked about, a | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
frequent levy. Most of the burden would fall on those who take the | :42:27. | :42:29. | |
largest number of unnecessary short-haul flights. The males of the | :42:30. | :42:37. | |
most important for the economy. If people have an alternative, the | :42:38. | :42:40. | |
railways, which is economically beneficial because it allows these | :42:41. | :42:46. | |
highly paid important people to actually do some work travelling, | :42:47. | :42:49. | |
which you can't really do on an aeroplane trip to London. If people | :42:50. | :42:56. | |
see railways is the affordable alternative more people will choose | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
that. There are ways of using taxation, to achieve a behavioural | :43:02. | :43:09. | |
change, in this case to reduce emissions, and a social justice | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
change. If the SNP can talk about alternatives, they have the | :43:16. | :43:18. | |
opportunity to replace air passenger duty with something better. If they | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
want to dig their heels in and say our way or nothing then nothing is | :43:23. | :43:28. | |
likely to happen. Independence. You are the balance of power on the | :43:29. | :43:31. | |
issue of the second referendum because you're the only party that | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
might be in favour of it. Do you understand the SNP palsy on the | :43:37. | :43:42. | |
second referendum? As far as I know, the First Minister's statement seems | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
broadly sensible that those of us who supported independence didn't | :43:47. | :43:49. | |
manage to convince people last time and we have work to do to convince | :43:50. | :43:55. | |
people. If Britain votes to leave the EU and Scotland to stay, would | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
you be in favour of a second referendum? The SNP appear to see it | :44:00. | :44:07. | |
as a material change but also they wouldn't want money unless the polls | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
were going their way. I don't think that is the most likely future | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
scenario in which we would choose. I know you don't want me to get into | :44:17. | :44:23. | |
which way the EU referendum will go but the less talked about scenario | :44:24. | :44:32. | |
is that the UK stays in the EU as a result of Scottish votes, that might | :44:33. | :44:39. | |
be more of an argument and about Scottish independence because the | :44:40. | :44:41. | |
right wing of the Tory party would have far less interest in keeping | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
the UK together. I support independence and so does the | :44:47. | :44:49. | |
Scottish Green Party and if and when a referendum comes along it is the | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
only fair way to settle the question. Would you back a second | :44:55. | :45:01. | |
referendum. It is something we like to see in the future. You have a | :45:02. | :45:04. | |
referendum. It is something we like tiny minority in Parliament, it we | :45:05. | :45:10. | |
had a referendum a year and a half ago and the argument is that | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
something very substantial and have to change and a minority party | :45:15. | :45:17. | |
shouldn't really hold the balance on a huge issue like this. Every MSP | :45:18. | :45:25. | |
gets the same number of votes in parliament. The point is that the | :45:26. | :45:35. | |
situation you are describing as the large extent the reason why both the | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
SNP and I think many of the rest of us in this rather pro-independence | :45:40. | :45:41. | |
movement are recognising there is more work to do in convincing people | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
to stop for example, acknowledging some of the weakness in the SNP's | :45:47. | :45:55. | |
2014 case in currency. Even Alex Salmond acknowledged that further | :45:56. | :45:58. | |
work is needed to ensure there is a viable and compelling proposition. | :45:59. | :46:05. | |
What about offensive behaviour on football matches legislation? Did | :46:06. | :46:11. | |
you get together with opposition parties and end or get rid of it? We | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
voted against it. I think it is a bad piece of legislation. I think | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
there is an opportunity to repeal the worst of it. I suspect a justice | :46:22. | :46:29. | |
committee process may be better than scrapping it all together. But he | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
would like to scrap it? There are two parts. The offensive behaviour | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
could staff has been the most contentious and I would like to see | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
an alternative approach to sectarianism which would be more | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
effective. There is also the threatening communications stuff and | :46:50. | :46:51. | |
although I have problems with it I think it should be amended rather | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
than repealed. A justice committee process would put it in the hands of | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
a cross-party body of people with government voices but also the | :47:01. | :47:02. | |
majority from political parties who were against that legislation, one | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
that would allow the thing not just to become one MSP's personal project | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
but a more reflective situation. I think we would get a better outcome | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
with a committee process. It has been awhile since committees have | :47:18. | :47:20. | |
initiated legislation and they should do more. 2002 I believe. Well | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
remembered. It's not long till Scotland will be | :47:25. | :47:26. | |
back at the ballot box. A short time ago I spoke | :47:27. | :47:29. | |
to the SNP's Justice and Home Affairs Spokesperson | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
at Westminster, Joanna Cherry, and to former Conservative Scottish | :47:34. | :47:35. | |
Secretary Lord Forsyth, currently campaigning | :47:36. | :47:37. | |
for Vote Leave. I started by asking Lord Forsyth | :47:38. | :47:40. | |
for his reaction to Boris Johnson's comments, comparing | :47:41. | :47:43. | |
the EU's aims to Hitler's. I think what he was trying to say | :47:44. | :47:54. | |
was that there isn't a European demos and if you try to force people | :47:55. | :48:00. | |
into one country with different economies and cultures and there | :48:01. | :48:03. | |
will be trouble and traditionally wear that has happened that has | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
proved to be disastrous. Could he perhaps have expressed himself in a | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
slightly different manner? His colourful way of expressing himself | :48:13. | :48:15. | |
as one of the reasons that in tears into people. Sometimes it offends | :48:16. | :48:22. | |
people, sometimes it makes people cheerful, but the basic point he is | :48:23. | :48:26. | |
making, the attempt to make a country called Europe, which has had | :48:27. | :48:29. | |
disastrous consequences for the Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese and | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
others, 50% unemployment across Europe, and I think the five | :48:34. | :48:39. | |
residents report, worth googling, which sets out the agenda of what is | :48:40. | :48:50. | |
necessary to preserve the euro, resulting in catastrophic effects of | :48:51. | :48:53. | |
the people of Europe and giving succour to extremist parties. I | :48:54. | :48:59. | |
thought it was quite an extraordinarily ill-advised thing | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
for Boris Johnson to say. Particularly in light of recent | :49:04. | :49:04. | |
comments from Ken Livingstone. Particularly in light of recent | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
suspect Michael Forsyth agrees with that but as to diplomatic to say. | :49:10. | :49:15. | |
I'm not usually diplomatic! It is not a ludicrous comparison because | :49:16. | :49:20. | |
the EU is about agreement and consensus and it is brought relative | :49:21. | :49:27. | |
peace to Europe in the last 60 years. -- it is ludicrous. It has | :49:28. | :49:35. | |
brought a common market of 5 million consumers to Scotland which is | :49:36. | :49:40. | |
beneficial to the economy. It ensures the whole of the UK enjoy | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
social protections, employment and human rights, which we probably | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
wouldn't otherwise enjoy giving this right wing government at the moment. | :49:50. | :49:52. | |
You didn't appreciate Boris Johnson's comments. What I'd like to | :49:53. | :50:00. | |
know is what you think should the vote to go to leave the EU, what | :50:01. | :50:06. | |
Britain should do? There are different views about whether we | :50:07. | :50:09. | |
should be part of the single market, have some arrangement whereby we | :50:10. | :50:15. | |
have to have free movement of labour or whether we completely get out of | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
it and negotiate trade agreements with other countries, without being | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
part of the single market. Where are you on that spectrum? | :50:24. | :50:29. | |
It's extraordinary to hear a Scottish National Party run the case | :50:30. | :50:36. | |
for an unelected Brussels bureaucracy. I think we should be | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
able to decide a own laws and spent our own money. And the moment we are | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
contributing ?10 billion net to be told what to do and have our laws | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
over ridden. Does that mean you would not like to have an agreement | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
for the Britain outside the EU to have an agreement in the way that | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
Norway or any different model Switzerland have? Norwegians pay | :51:00. | :51:02. | |
lots of money in and have to do a lot of what the European Union says. | :51:03. | :51:08. | |
Norway and Switzerland are tiny, we are the fifth largest economy in the | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
world with huge relationships around the Commonwealth and elsewhere. The | :51:14. | :51:15. | |
single market is an agreement between 28 countries in order to | :51:16. | :51:21. | |
have common standards for products. The Americans export into Google, | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
the Chinese exporting to Europe. It means that within Europe you have | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
one common approach to particular products. That would still exist if | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
we were out. You think we should be any system which for example keeps | :51:36. | :51:41. | |
free of labour? Absolutely not. We had to gain control of our own | :51:42. | :51:48. | |
Borders. We should be able to decide who comes into this country, we | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
should be able to throw people out from this country who are a threat | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
to security and to our way of life and we should be able to decide our | :51:57. | :52:00. | |
own laws and not be subject to a foreign court. Perhaps you can cheat | :52:01. | :52:08. | |
at the SNP's position because when it comes to Europe, the SNP doesn't | :52:09. | :52:11. | |
seem to like it very much. They don't want the euro, you don't like | :52:12. | :52:18. | |
the common fisheries policy but when it comes to Britain you can't get | :52:19. | :52:21. | |
enough of it, you want an independent Scotland to have the | :52:22. | :52:26. | |
pound, you're quite happy to have financial regulation by authorities | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
in London, UK going on about a social union with the UK. Why is it | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
you want to leave the UK and stay in Europe rather than the other way | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
around? We want to leave the United Kingdom because we're not an equal | :52:40. | :52:42. | |
partner in the latest kingdom. We would like to remain a member of | :52:43. | :52:45. | |
Europe because we would like to be on an equal footing with other | :52:46. | :52:48. | |
member states and I would like to take Lord Forsyth upon something he | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
has said repeatedly. It is not true to say the laws are made by | :52:53. | :52:58. | |
unelected bureaucrats. The laws are proposed by the commission. My point | :52:59. | :53:04. | |
is the SNP actually isn't in favour of any of the key institutions of | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
the contemporary European Union. That's simply not correct. If you | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
would let me finish, it is not correct to say that Europe is not | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
democratic. The laws are proposed by the commission which has 28 | :53:17. | :53:19. | |
commissioners appointed by member states to go to the council which | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
consist of ministers from the directly elected members of the | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
member state and they are then considered by the Parliament, which | :53:28. | :53:30. | |
consists of directly elected members of the European Parliament. It is | :53:31. | :53:34. | |
not correct to say it is not democratic. However, it is open to | :53:35. | :53:38. | |
improvement and the SNP have been clean about that. Next year, the | :53:39. | :53:41. | |
native kingdom of all the presidency of the European Council. If we are | :53:42. | :53:47. | |
wise enough to stay part of Europe. That is a great opportunity for the | :53:48. | :53:50. | |
United Kingdom to lead the way on reform. He mentioned the common | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
fisheries policy. You're absolutely right to say the SNP are very | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
unhappy with the way in which that has been conducted but that is the | :53:59. | :54:01. | |
fault of the United Kingdom Government who have simply not going | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
to -- gone into bat properly for fishermen in Scotland. What we like | :54:06. | :54:14. | |
to see in the future is a Scottish minister from the Scottish | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
Government carrying out negotiations with fisheries policies. The | :54:19. | :54:22. | |
fisheries policy is one of the pillars of the European Union. They | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
might be able to change the way it operates but the basic principle of | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
it as far as I understand it, certainly Alex Salmond was against, | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
you cannot be a member of the European Union without signing up to | :54:35. | :54:40. | |
it. Alex was very clear last week. He gave a keynote speech in Brussels | :54:41. | :54:43. | |
and was very clean about what she wanted to see happen in the common | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
fisheries policy and he said he wanted to see the United Kingdom | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
alone Scottish ministers who know about the fishing industry in | :54:52. | :54:54. | |
Scotland to negotiate on Scotland's behalf. The UK Government in the | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
past considered the fishing industry in Scotland expendable and we have | :55:00. | :55:02. | |
been on the back foot from the outset. I do not believe the | :55:03. | :55:05. | |
fisheries policy could not be made to work better for Scotland but that | :55:06. | :55:09. | |
will only work better if we have a member from the Scottish Government | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
is making a washy oceans rather than an analog -- unelected peer -- | :55:15. | :55:26. | |
making negotiations. There is an attempt to minimise this but | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
everyone from Mark Carney dam is saying there is a serious risk. Now | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
he isn't. This morning he refused to say although the bank has the | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
capacity to do so, what the long-term benefit to benefit would | :55:41. | :55:49. | |
be if we left the EU. All he is saying that in the short-term there | :55:50. | :55:53. | |
may be a shock that people may put off decisions because of the | :55:54. | :55:56. | |
uncertainty. He is only looking at the short term and he is using | :55:57. | :55:59. | |
exactly the same models as the Treasury and the IMF and everyone | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
else. It's not a question of models, it's accepted that companies are | :56:06. | :56:08. | |
holding off investing until they find out which way it goes. And the | :56:09. | :56:13. | |
IMF and people with their models are saying there could be great | :56:14. | :56:16. | |
uncertainty and difficulty. It would be surprising if they did not create | :56:17. | :56:19. | |
the effect which they are saying may arise. On the common fisheries | :56:20. | :56:29. | |
policy, it means that our fisheries Ali common resource. I'd say the | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
European Union, the Scottish Government will be able to decide | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
what the quarters and arrangements are. The Council of ministers, | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
Britain has voted 70 times against measures in the Council of ministers | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
and been defeated on 70 occasions. The idea of an independent Scotland | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
having an influence is nonsense. This business about the economy. The | :56:52. | :56:57. | |
argument is that there may be some short-term shenanigans because | :56:58. | :57:00. | |
people are holding off decisions on investment and eight be a head to | :57:01. | :57:03. | |
the small market if there was a vote to leave,, but over the years the | :57:04. | :57:12. | |
effect would be minimal. I disagree, I think they would be a considerable | :57:13. | :57:18. | |
period of uncertainty but what Lord Forsyth and his friends in the | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
Brexit movement is simply unachievable. Countries like Norway | :57:23. | :57:25. | |
and Switzerland which are part of the European economic area are still | :57:26. | :57:30. | |
subject to EU regulations, they just don't have any say in how they are | :57:31. | :57:38. | |
made. One of the big part of the Brexit movement to prevent | :57:39. | :57:40. | |
immigration to Britain is that they don't realise if you want to be part | :57:41. | :57:43. | |
of the European economic area you had to accept the movement as well | :57:44. | :57:48. | |
so they are putting the United Kingdom and Scottish economy into | :57:49. | :57:50. | |
jeopardy to achieve the unachievable. Thank you both very | :57:51. | :57:53. | |
much indeed. Now while some may have suggested | :57:54. | :57:54. | |
the Holyrood election campaign was a little dull, | :57:55. | :57:56. | |
there was no mistaking the buzz at parliament this week | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
as the victors arrived I'm joined from Edinburgh by two | :58:01. | :58:02. | |
of them - Alex Cole-Hamilton, who won Edinburgh Western | :58:03. | :58:09. | |
for the Liberal Democrats, and Jenny Gilruth of the SNP, | :58:10. | :58:11. | |
who is the new MSP for Jenny Gilruth, was this your first | :58:12. | :58:27. | |
thing standing in an election? Yes, an interesting experience for me as | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
a first-time candidate but a great experience to be a part of. What was | :58:33. | :58:38. | |
it like? The ready teacher before Benji? I was in modern studies | :58:39. | :58:44. | |
teacher, a head of Department, so it is a change from my day job. We are | :58:45. | :58:51. | |
getting involved in meetings, getting to know her Parliament | :58:52. | :58:55. | |
works, meeting with new MPs across the political divide. It has been a | :58:56. | :59:03. | |
fantastic experience. It must be difficult to go from a very | :59:04. | :59:06. | |
controlled environment like a classroom to something where it is | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
perhaps not quite so clear what you're supposed to be doing. There | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
is a clarity in terms of what we will be doing. If you been in the | :59:16. | :59:21. | |
there is a level of control their! there is a level of control their! | :59:22. | :59:27. | |
-- Tricia. That is a similarity between the chamber and classroom | :59:28. | :59:32. | |
terms of how other members and sells conductors cells so there's an | :59:33. | :59:35. | |
element of similarity between school and the chamber you could say. Alex | :59:36. | :59:41. | |
Cole-Hamilton, you're a bit of a veteran, aren't you? I'm something | :59:42. | :59:46. | |
of a one horse in terms of standing. You don't join the Liberal Democrats | :59:47. | :59:51. | |
as a career move, they do because you believe in Civil Liberties, the | :59:52. | :59:55. | |
environment and holding the SNP to account. This is my first time | :59:56. | :59:59. | |
standing but I finally got there and I got the glory on the shoulders of | :00:00. | :00:03. | |
the finest people I know, a massive campaign team that worked their guts | :00:04. | :00:08. | |
out. What did you make of your first week? My head is utterly spinning. I | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
have worked in a Scottish week? My head is utterly spinning. I | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
since the beginning of devilish in but I realise how much I don't know. | :00:16. | :00:21. | |
As Jenny said, the Parliament staff have been fantastic in getting us | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
As Jenny said, the Parliament staff settled and easing us into the flow. | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
I'm already getting stuck in. I'm interested in whether each of you | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
has a particular policy area or proposal for a bill which is not | :00:35. | :00:36. | |
mainstream in your own party that you would like to push. Jenny | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
Gilruth, is there anything you would like to be able to come out at the | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
end of this and say, this is what I achieved? At this moment in time I | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
already deal to the people that voted for me and my commitment | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
absolutely as to my constituency and to those who put their trust in me. | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
At this bomb, not thinking personally what I could get out of | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
this, this is about representing the people who put their faith in me. | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
Alex Cole-Hamilton, Cupid for motions already, haven't you? | :01:05. | :01:11. | |
Absolutely. My background is in children and young people's services | :01:12. | :01:13. | |
Absolutely. My background is in and I've spent my adult life | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
fighting for the rights of children so I'm going to bring a lot of that | :01:17. | :01:26. | |
was meant to Holyrood and I'm setting targets for my tenure in | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
Parliament. If you could put forward a bill for young people, what would | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
be in it? We often say we want to be the best place in the world to go up | :01:36. | :01:43. | |
yet we refuse as a country to use the European Convention's rights of | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
a tiled so I would put forward a bill to incorporate that. -- writes | :01:47. | :01:55. | |
of a child. Jenny Gilruth, you wouldn't be against that, would you? | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
Certainly not. I have always encouraged my class to vote in | :02:00. | :02:06. | |
elections for class representatives. We need to get more young people | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
involved in the political process. That's something I feel passionately | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
about. What about in terms of your party, Jenny Gilruth, is there | :02:17. | :02:18. | |
anything in particular you would like to see the SNP having achieved | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
at the end of this term that isn't there now? I'm proud of our | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
achievements in education. there now? I'm proud of our | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
Particularly we have invested a lot of money in the attainment fund and | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
that is something I'd like to support going forward. I know we all | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
feel passionately about that and I think the First Minister has showed | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
to be a credible force on that front. Alex Cole-Hamilton, | :02:43. | :02:50. | |
presumably you would agree with that because one of the Liberal | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
Democrats' big issue was the people premium and we can, different things | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
but what it amounts to is money for children who are in need. | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
Absolutely. There was a report published that said we have actually | :03:03. | :03:05. | |
slipped down the global rankings in terms of our quality of teaching and | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
the achievements that students get in Scottish schools. We used to be | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
world-beater and we are now average. We don't think that's good enough. | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
The SNP have talked a good game but have come up wanting in terms of | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
action. That is what the central pillar of the Democrat manifesto | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
was. He didn't manage to keep the best pals up till the end. We'll see | :03:29. | :03:37. | |
what it's like in future. Now, as with every election, plenty of | :03:38. | :03:40. | |
energy was spent trying to predict the outcome of the vote and produced | :03:41. | :03:42. | |
unexpected results. Now the experts have begun | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
the process of trying to make Our reporter Andrew Black has been | :03:49. | :03:50. | |
speaking to some of them. We've just seen a Scottish election | :03:51. | :03:59. | |
to the building behind me which has produced some surprising results. | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
The main headline is the SNP will be back for a third time in office but | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
as human oddity Government instead of a majority Government. There has | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
also been talk of a Scottish Tory revival in Scotland after Labour | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
slumped to third place behind the Conservatives and the Greens managed | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
to increase their number of seats. It's got expert asking, what just | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
happened in Scotland? As the dust from election night settles, a group | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
of academics, politicians and others gathered in Edinburgh to offer their | :04:32. | :04:38. | |
thoughts on what happened. One of the key questions is why the SNP | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
when it seemed so unstoppable fell back in terms of seats. The local | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
system had something to do with it. We know that people didn't always | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
backed the same parties across the two ballots and I think what we | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
called split ticket voting is certainly responsible. The SNP was | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
leaking supporters across the constituency and regional lists more | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
than the other main parties and that probably didn't help in the end but | :05:04. | :05:05. | |
than the other main parties and that also I think there was tactical | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
voting. There has been much talk of the SNP's dominance being like a | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
1-party state but if you look at things from a Welsh perspective, the | :05:15. | :05:16. | |
situation in Scotland is anything A position of Welsh Labour Party | :05:17. | :05:31. | |
makes a SNP look like Johnny come latelys. The Labour Party have | :05:32. | :05:42. | |
dominated the Welsh elections for years at. The SNP's domination of | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
Scottish politics is much more recent, much less a deeply grounded | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
than Labour's domination of Welsh politics. Back in Scotland, are we | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
seeing another shift in the political tectonic plates following | :05:58. | :05:58. | |
the significant gains made by political tectonic plates following | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
Conservatives? The Conservatives had a very good result. However, the | :06:04. | :06:14. | |
party denied itself, it wasn't the Conservative Party, it was the | :06:15. | :06:17. | |
receiver to party. Fair enough, but they have to build on that and | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
translate Rick Davidson into the Conservative Party. They have to be | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
an effective opposition and what does that mean? They have promised | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
to be strong opposition, if it is negative and destructive it will not | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
help. They have to become full. Then there is labour. Many people thought | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
of the party as Scotland's dominant political force since time began at | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
the election so their fortunes further decline. Why was that? The | :06:45. | :06:51. | |
SNP are seen as a more effective vehicle for standing up to Scotland | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
and more effective in government. These are issues the Labour Party | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
will have to confront. The Labour Party has had a terrible election | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
but they are far from dead. They have to get their act together and | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
work out what kind of party at us and regain the initiative as | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
Scotland's party of progressive politics. One thing is certain, the | :07:10. | :07:19. | |
make-up of this new parliament will probably make the next few years | :07:20. | :07:20. | |
pretty interesting. Let's discuss some of those issues, | :07:21. | :07:21. | |
and what to expect from the days Joining me now are the | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
Investigations Editor at the Sunday Herald, | :07:26. | :07:34. | |
Paul Hutcheon, and Lindsay Mcintosh who is Scottish Political | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
Editor at the Times. Did the minority government surprise | :07:38. | :07:52. | |
you? Yes. And it surprised the pollsters. It is a different | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
minority government this time around compared to 2007. They had to deal | :07:59. | :08:07. | |
with the other parties then to get their agenda through. This time they | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
have to strike deals but it is much easier. Presumably it depends who | :08:12. | :08:22. | |
you do deals with. On tax, the Scottish Conservatives probably have | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
the nearest to the SNP policy but if you're the SNP he might not | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
particularly want to be seen to be getting your tax proposals through | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
thanks to the Tories. There are 65 opposition MSPs and 63 government | :08:38. | :08:44. | |
supporting MSPs. They have to get one party to support them on | :08:45. | :08:51. | |
legislation. If you look at their manifesto and they stick rigidly to | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
that, I think they will make alliances on a case-by-case basis. | :08:57. | :08:59. | |
And things like income tax, council tax, the SNP is probably closest to | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
the Conservative policies but if you look at issues like the named person | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
scheme, the Tories tried mounting an attack on that, the Greens, Lib Dems | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
and Labour will probably back the SNP. Also the welfare powers. I'd | :09:17. | :09:23. | |
imagine the centre-left parties will support the SNP. I think it will be | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
fun times. I don't have gates going to be a boring five years. Just on | :09:29. | :09:38. | |
tax, the Greens, who you might think because of their views on | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
independence are the newest of SNP, actually are probably the furthest | :09:43. | :09:44. | |
away from them in terms of tax. Yes, actually are probably the furthest | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
and I think the Tories are closest in taxation. On income tax, the only | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
difference between Nicola Sturgeon and George Osborne's policy is | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
fiddling with the middle rate. With the SNP be prepared to be seen to | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
get into bed with the Tories on that? It depends how they spend it. | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
Last week when Nicola Sturgeon talked about taxation she was | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
committed to her income tax policy but seems to suggest she might shift | :10:13. | :10:15. | |
on business rates. There is an ongoing review of them at the | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
moment. Read it she was willing to strike a deal with the Tories and | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
that's where she could go. There are are some issues and could be | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
difficult for the SNP. Air passenger duty. Everyone but the SNP are | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
against it. It maybe they have to come back with new that perhaps | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
modify the proposals. I expect them to modify a number of policies. The | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
legislation that criminalise defensive behaviour at football | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
matches. That was railroaded through by the SNP government. It is clear | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
that all the opposition parties are against large aspect of it. Not in | :10:53. | :10:54. | |
its entirety. I imagine that might against large aspect of it. Not in | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
be an early casualty of the first year. Other issues like the named | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
person thing, I think that would survive, but they will have to box | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
clever. They will not have at their own way like the last five years. It | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
will be more similar like the first term when they governed by minority. | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
It will be interesting. Independence, the Greens are in | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
favour, pro-independence gets a small majority. How do you interpret | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
what the SNP have been saying recently? They clearly don't want a | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
referendum any time soon. I think there is only one test for another | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
referendum and that is when the opinion polls consistently show | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
people will vote yes. Why would they have a referendum before that? I | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
think although there is a majority of independent supporting MSPs in | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
parliament now, the manifestos which they stood on do not include a clear | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
commitment to a referendum so I cannot see us having one any time | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
soon. The green one was particularly roundabout. It suggested there would | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
have to be a 1 million strong petition. Nicola Sturgeon is forming | :12:07. | :12:09. | |
a new government this week. Do you expect big changes? I think she is | :12:10. | :12:18. | |
gone to be splitting up the finance and economy brief. The thing that | :12:19. | :12:21. | |
interests me is the education portfolio. Nicola Sturgeon says this | :12:22. | :12:31. | |
is a key priority and how she wants to be judged. If I was her I would | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
want my top minister in that portfolio. Looking round the Cabinet | :12:37. | :12:43. | |
table, John Swinney is the most competent and able. He could perhaps | :12:44. | :12:50. | |
combine finance? Maybe move him out of finance altogether. Maybe it is | :12:51. | :12:58. | |
not going to be as onerous as it once was. Derek Mackay, Keith Brown | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
could step into that job. John Swinney has been in the same job for | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
nine years. Maybe it is time for a change. Arise John Swinney, would be | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
your view? It would be the logical change. Arise John Swinney, would be | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
choice but whether she goes down that road is another matter. I think | :13:20. | :13:26. | |
I agree. Nicola Sturgeon said that brief is going to be split. Although | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
John has been in it for nine years he is a respected member of the | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
Cabinet and he has new powers over taxation and welfare. He is seen as | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
a steady hand. Important for a government. Think of Gordon Brown as | :13:39. | :13:46. | |
Chancellor. A big job for John Swinney whether he stays in finance | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
or moves education. We might see some new blood at Cabinet or | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
ministerial level as we saw from your earlier interviews, clearly | :13:54. | :14:01. | |
there is new SNP talent. It be interesting to see if Nicola | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
Sturgeon wants to try them out at a lower level. There was no other | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
brief you can see changing other than education? Education is the one | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
that's certainly going to go. On Tuesday we'll be bringing | :14:13. | :14:14. | |
you special coverage of the election of the First Minister at quarter | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
past two on BBC Two. I'll be back on Wednesday afternoon | :14:19. | :14:21. | |
with Politics Scotland Soak up the atmosphere at the most | :14:22. | :14:23. | |
famous flower show in the world. from the RHS Chelsea Flower Show | :14:24. | :14:37. | |
2016. | :14:38. | :14:41. |