Browse content similar to 05/06/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Just over a fortnight to go and the referendum | :00:36. | :00:42. | |
debate is getting serious, with John Major launching a | :00:43. | :00:44. | |
We'll be discussing the week's big developments | :00:45. | :00:51. | |
campaigns, and we've got two big hitters for the price of one - | :00:52. | :00:58. | |
I'll be joined by Labour's John Prescott, | :00:59. | :01:00. | |
I'll be joined by Labour's John Prescott | :01:01. | :01:02. | |
And if you haven't decided how to vote yet you're not the only one - | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
one MP who's only now finally reached a decision will reveal | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
live on air if he's backing Leave or Remain. | :01:11. | :01:12. | |
Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland: | :01:13. | :01:14. | |
We're taking the temperature on the EU with Scotland Stronger | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
in Europe, and in the Western Isles which voted no to the EEC | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
And, in a week in which one poll showed the public are three times | :01:21. | :01:36. | |
more likely to trust the word of a random stranger | :01:37. | :01:38. | |
And, in a week in which one poll showed the public are three times | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
I'm joined by a political panel with the full authority | :01:45. | :01:46. | |
It's Sam Coates, Isabel Oakeshott, and Janan Ganesh. | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
We'll try and find some random strangers to replace | :01:50. | :01:51. | |
them next week, and see if you notice the difference! | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
So, in case you weren't sure just how high the stakes were in this | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
referendum campaign, you only have to look at this | :02:00. | :02:01. | |
morning's papers, and listen to former Prime Minister John Major | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
taking aim at his fellow Tories in the Leave campaign. | :02:05. | :02:06. | |
The current Prime Minister David Cameron tried to get his party | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
to avoid so-called blue-on-blue attacks, in the hope of keeping | :02:10. | :02:11. | |
It seems like John Major didn't get the message, | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
as he accused the Leave campaign of squalid deceit, | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
and called Boris Johnson a court jester. | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
Here he is, talking to Andrew Marr earlier. | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
This is going to affect people, their livelihoods, their future, | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
for a very long time to come, and if they are given honest, | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
straightforward facts and they decide to leave, | :02:36. | :02:37. | |
then that is the decision the British people take. | :02:38. | :02:39. | |
But if they decide to leave on the basis of inaccurate | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
information, inaccurate information known to be inaccurate, | :02:46. | :02:47. | |
Now, I may be wrong, but that is how I see their campaign. | :02:48. | :02:55. | |
And this is so important, for once, I'm not prepared to give the benefit | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
of the doubt to other people, I'm going to say | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
And I think this is a deceitful campaign, and in terms | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
of what they are saying about immigration, a really | :03:08. | :03:09. | |
They are misleading people to an extraordinary extent. | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
So, that was former Prime Minister John Major, but, | :03:16. | :03:17. | |
when Boris Johnson took to the same sofa, he studiously declined | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
to return fire when asked if those words were part of an attempt | :03:22. | :03:24. | |
by the Remain campaign to "take him out". | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
Whether it is or not, this morning I think that... | :03:29. | :03:30. | |
I'm rather with John McDonnell this morning... | :03:31. | :03:32. | |
He says that there's too much of this sort of blue-on-blue action, | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
and what he wants to hear is the arguments, | :03:39. | :03:40. | |
Boris failing to take the bait. As I said, John major hadn't got the | :03:41. | :03:56. | |
memo from down the street, that was a joke. | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
The fact was John Major was sent into the show by Downing Street to | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
beat up on Boris. Is that an example, a testament to have rattled | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
they are? My own evidence is they are very | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
rattled, they got extremely twitchy about something I tweeted on Friday | :04:13. | :04:24. | |
night where I suggested a prominent Remain person was appearing on sky. | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
This shows the level of nerves in Downing Street. The kind of language | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
being exchanged between senior figures in the party raises very | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
serious questions about how the party comes together. | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
We had Michael Gove this morning saying he thinks the party can come | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
together on June the 24th. Of course they can, but I doubt it will be on | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
June the 24th. It is quite remarkable for a | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
Conservative Downing Street to get a former Conservative prime ministers | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
to come onto the BBC, the main Sunday morning news show, Andrew | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
Maher, and to beat up on the man who is currently favourite to be the | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
Tory leader. That is almost unprecedented. | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
John Major put his credibility on the line with phrases like squalid, | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
depressing. He was going for Boris Johnson. | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
There is a clear, strategic imperative behind what John Major | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
was saying, he is trying to reduce Boris Johnson's credibility, | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
currently the most popular and trusted figure in the EU debate. | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
They are worried and trying to harm that. | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
So, they are going for the man. The Big Questions this morning for | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
Downing Street, and it is right to point fingers at Downing Street for | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
pushing this kind of intervention, stiffening John Major's spines when | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
it turned out Boris was going to be on the programme I think he had a | :05:57. | :05:59. | |
bubble. That is my understanding. The danger | :06:00. | :06:06. | |
is that Downing Street are encouraging this, to send this | :06:07. | :06:13. | |
debate into a Tory blue-on-blue battle. | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
The effect may well be to deter Labour voters. | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
The people who want Britain to stay inside you need to do two things, to | :06:21. | :06:26. | |
make sure Tory voters vote for Remain, and turn out the Remain vote | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
against Labour and SNB voters. The question is whether having all | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
the headlines dominated by this blue-on-blue fight -- SNP. | :06:36. | :06:44. | |
It means people shrug and give up. It is more than just blue-on-blue. | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
From what John Major said this morning, it seems Downing Street is | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
prepared to trash the Tory brand, their own brand, in desperation to | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
win on June the 23rd. John Major describing one of the | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
likely people to be the ex-Tory leader -- next Tory leader as a | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
court jester. Saying, if you put Michael Gove, | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
Boris Johnson comic Iain Duncan Smith in charge of the NHS, is like | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
giving your pet hamster to a buy them. A second Tory poster. How can | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
you not conclude they are so desperate about June the 23rd they | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
are prepared to trash their own party's brand. | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
Short of using the B word when he thought the Microsoft when talking | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
to Michael Brunson, it was very vociferous. | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
It is true Boris Johnson did not retaliate in the interview. John | :07:43. | :07:45. | |
Major and number ten would argue that retaliation was made very | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
early, over the past few weeks, the Prime Minister's integrity on some | :07:52. | :07:53. | |
questions had been brought into doubt by people in his own party. | :07:54. | :08:00. | |
Without defending number ten's instructions to John Major if they | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
exist, they feel aggrieved because of attacks during the campaign. | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
Looking at the footage of John Major, I detect sincere emotion on | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
his part, rather than being a mouthpiece. | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
I did argue that he didn't mean what he said. | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
As Sam was saying, he didn't want to come on. | :08:23. | :08:25. | |
This is such an important development, it tells us about the | :08:26. | :08:27. | |
remain camped. Now, staying with the EU referendum, | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
today we're going to try Two well-informed campaigners, | :08:32. | :08:33. | |
the Conservative MEP Dan Hannan and the Labour MP Emma Reynolds, | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
will be interrogating each other I'll mostly just be sitting | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
back to watch. A short while ago in our green room, | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
they tossed a coin to see Emma is the winner, or loser, | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
depending on your point of view, so they'll be the first | :08:51. | :08:57. | |
to be cross-examined. They took a break in campaigning | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
to make their pitch I'm Daniel Hannan, Conservative | :09:02. | :09:04. | |
Member of the European Parliament, and I'm inviting you to fire me | :09:05. | :09:12. | |
on the 23rd of June. First, because leaving | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
is the modern choice. The European Union | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
is a relic of the 1950s, when regional blocs | :09:20. | :09:21. | |
looked like the future, but that world has been overtaken | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
by technological change. Second, because it's | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
the cheaper choice. Instead of handing Brussels | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
?20 billion a year gross, 10 billion net, we'll have our money | :09:37. | :09:38. | |
to spend on our priorities. We will take back the sublime right | :09:39. | :09:45. | |
to hire and fire our own lawmakers. In a necessarily uncertain world, | :09:46. | :09:58. | |
we will have taken back control to mitigate any risks ourselves | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
instead of passing power to people who may not | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
have our interests at heart. And fifth, because it's | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
the confident choice. We are a merchant, | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
maritime, global nation, the fifth largest economy | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
on the planet, one of five permanent seat-holders | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
on the UN Security Council. We have the world's most | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
widely studied language, before we are able to run our own | :10:25. | :10:26. | |
affairs in our own interests? Trading and cooperating with friends | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
and allies on every continent, including Europe, | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
but living under our own laws. So, here are Dan Hannan | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
and Emma Reynolds. And, just to explain the rules, | :10:43. | :10:44. | |
you've just five You can only ask questions, | :10:45. | :10:46. | |
or only give answers. Nine out of ten economists and a | :10:47. | :11:00. | |
string of organisations say leaving the EU would damage the economy, | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
make families worse off, cause a recession, could you name an | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
independent economic force -- economic forecaster who has said the | :11:10. | :11:12. | |
opposite? Five former chancellors are | :11:13. | :11:14. | |
campaigning to leave, plenty of economists, ... | :11:15. | :11:21. | |
Gerard Lyons has said, although in favour of leaving, if we were to | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
vote to leave, the two years, it would cause great uncertainty and | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
depress the economy. He hasn't said that. He said that in | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
a report. He hasn't. You will have to do | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
better than that. He is strongly of the view leaving means walking away | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
from a declining trade bloc and being able to leap up... And the | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
uncertainty? All these international bodies... | :11:51. | :11:58. | |
Hang on. The IMF, these are people who shared the outlook, | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
international bureaucrats, they share the lifestyle, the tax-free | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
lifestyle, they shared the basic outlook. Through euros, because that | :12:09. | :12:18. | |
is the kind of circles they live in. The Institute for Fiscal Studies is | :12:19. | :12:21. | |
widely respected, they have said by leaving we could blow a black hole | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
of up to ?40 billion in our public finances, meaning less money for | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
public services. They were feeding in the same basic | :12:32. | :12:38. | |
data they got from these IMF, OECD organisations. | :12:39. | :12:41. | |
They are independent. If I didn't think we would be better off as a | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
whole, I would not be inviting viewers to make me redundant. The | :12:45. | :12:51. | |
reason I am confident I will have a job in the private sector doing | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
something more productive than regulating everyone else is we | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
shouldn't be linked to the world is Oates only collapsing trade bloc. | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
There are huge opportunity -- the world's. We are the only one that | :13:06. | :13:11. | |
hasn't grown. Another question, you have described | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
the NHS as the biggest 60 year mistake, why can the public trust | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
the Leave campaign when they don't want the NHS to be in public hands? | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
I said the mistake was having a nationalised system rather than a | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
pluralist one as they have in almost every other industrialised country. | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
The referendum is an instruction to the Government to get us out. | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
It does not mean you are electing the boat Leave campaign, but giving | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
a mandate to get us out on terms and in a timescale said to our allies | :13:44. | :13:50. | |
across the control -- the channel but in our interests. | :13:51. | :13:56. | |
We are really looking at a decision to leave and asking people not to | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
trust any other politician but the British electorate. | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
The weight of economic evidence is on the remain camped, you would | :14:06. | :14:08. | |
admit that at least. Can you name a country that has | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
access to the single market but does not accept free movement? | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
The EU side free trade agreements with Colombia... | :14:17. | :14:23. | |
You said access to the single market, every country in Europe has | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
access to the single market. There is a free trade area from | :14:27. | :14:32. | |
non-EU Iceland... Why therefore does Ireland and | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
Norway faced agricultural tariffs of over 13%? | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
Ireland and Norway? Icelands and Norway. | :14:42. | :14:47. | |
Yes, they have wisely chosen to stay out of the Common Agricultural | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
Policy. Their farmers are strongly in favour of staying out of the CIP. | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
If we did the same thing, instead of being doubly penalised as a net food | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
importer with efficient farms, paying more in, getting less out, we | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
can have a British farming policy tailored to suit our needs. | :15:07. | :15:13. | |
In Northern Ireland, you suggested the border would remain open between | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. How can you therefore | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
guarantee that if you want to stop free movement, that European | :15:23. | :15:24. | |
migrants would not come through that border? You are leaving the back | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
door open. Illegal migrants could come through that border today but | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
do not. They could come through legally. We have an agreement which | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
includes the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, which are not in | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
the, it long predates the EU. The point is it is possible now, don't | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
take anyone's word for it, we have a common travel area with EU and | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
non-EU states, no-one in Dublin or Westminster is suggesting that is a | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
problem. We have only three seconds to go, tough and time in the | :15:59. | :16:01. | |
interests of fairness! It is the dunnock Emma to be cross-examined, | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
let's look at her pitch to undecided voters. | :16:08. | :16:13. | |
We are stronger, safer and better off in Europe. | :16:14. | :16:15. | |
Families benefit from lower prices, more jobs, | :16:16. | :16:17. | |
Businesses benefit from a European single market | :16:18. | :16:20. | |
Workers benefit from employment protection. | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
We trade more with the EU than any other country. | :16:27. | :16:28. | |
from companies like Jaguar Land Rover here in the West Midlands. | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
And by staying in the EU, we will attract even more investment | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
and create more jobs for the next generation. | :16:37. | :16:39. | |
In the 21st century, the challenges that our country face | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
no longer stop at the White Cliffs of Dover. | :16:43. | :16:44. | |
Cross-border crime and terrorism, climate change - | :16:45. | :16:46. | |
by working with our European partners, | :16:47. | :16:47. | |
we can meet these challenges successfully. | :16:48. | :16:54. | |
predicts that damage will be done to our economy if we leave. | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
And the Bank of England Governor, Mark Carney, | :17:00. | :17:02. | |
It would create a black hole in our public finances, | :17:03. | :17:14. | |
meaning less money for our public services, like schools and the NHS. | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
for more jobs, prosperity and security. | :17:19. | :17:29. | |
As before, Dan, you now have five minutes | :17:30. | :17:31. | |
to put your questions. Off you go. | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
Thank you. As you know, the EU is not a settled dispensation, it is | :17:36. | :17:43. | |
undergoing the Euro crisis, the Schengen crisis, migration problems, | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
and it is evolving - what are the greatest risks of Remain? Well, you | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
would keep your job! You seem to want to lose your job. I don't think | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
that there are great risks of as remaining, because we have the best | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
of both worlds. We are not in the eurozone, we have the pound as our | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
currency, like eight other member states retain their currency, but we | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
have unfettered access to the single market, and no other country... What | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
can you tell us about budget contributions in ten or 15 years' | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
time? I know what our budget contributions are today, not what is | :18:20. | :18:29. | |
on the side of your bus. How many migrants might be resettled here? | :18:30. | :18:31. | |
More came from outside of the EU than inside. Can you tell us how | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
many bailouts we might be dragged into? Zero. So if we vote to stay | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
in, even though we had a written guarantee in 2014 that which would | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
not be dragged into a bailout, you trust them this time? You say that | :18:45. | :18:57. | |
but you are a MEP. I am asking the questions. I think the ministers go | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
to the Council of Ministers meetings, 97% of the votes won, we | :19:03. | :19:09. | |
are not run by Eurocrats. You cannot answer any of the questions about | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
how it might look if we stay in, so there are risks both ways. Is it | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
safer to take back control to mitigate risks ourselves, or save a | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
passing control to people who may not have our interests at heart? I | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
do not know why you mistrust our European partners to such a great | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
extent, because the challenges we face in the 21st century, climate | :19:32. | :19:34. | |
change, cross-border crime, terrorism, those are challenges we | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
share with our partners. Let me ask another question, in our country we | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
have an example of a very high-minded, radical tradition that | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
has been very good at dispersing power from oligarchs to the general | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
population. As an heiress to the suffragettes and the chartists, do | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
you feel comfortable backing an elitist, anti-democratic project | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
where supreme power is wielded by people immune to the ballot box, | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
where we pay more to wealthy French farmers than poor African farmers, | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
and where we have inflicted joblessness and misery on tens of | :20:07. | :20:09. | |
millions of people around the Mediterranean while Eurocrats like | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
around in private jets? Does that seem comfortable as a person on the | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
centre-left? I feel comfortable because I feel the EU has been a | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
force for good in terms of employment protection, in a way a | :20:23. | :20:25. | |
Conservative governments never has, comfortable because we elect our | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
MEPs, and we elect a government that sends ministers to Brussels to have | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
the final say on European regulations, and I feel comfortable | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
as a British MP that over the vast majority of policy areas, whether | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
health, housing, education, policing, we have confidence in | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
those areas. So Lord Rose, the leader of the remainder campaign | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
says Vote Leave for higher wages, Paddy Ashdown says we will get | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
cheaper food, don't you think there are benefits to the majority of low | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
and medium income people from having that boosting household income? On | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
the contrary. So they are wrong? I think they are wrong, people in my | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
constituency, low and middle incomes, they will suffer the most | :21:10. | :21:17. | |
if manufacturing is eliminated, according to the Brexit Economist, | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
the Bank of England governor has predicted a recession, and it will | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
be people I reserve present who will be worse after macro, not people | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
earning high income jobs. -- worse off. What is the strongest argument | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
for voting Leave? I don't think there is one. None at all? This is | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
one of the things that puzzles a lot of people trying to make up their | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
mind. You do not think there are any benefits of staying in the EU. It is | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
not my job to tell you them, but I can see them! People make an issue | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
out of being so broad-minded and reasonable, but they struggle to see | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
the other point of view at all. They cannot put themselves in the shoes | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
of the people that the EU is not benefiting, which is the vast | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
majority. There is a lot of scaremongering on your side about | :22:07. | :22:09. | |
what might happen, because if we stay in, we will pretty much have | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
the status quo, access to a market where we trade more than with the | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
rest of the world, 44% of our exports go to the rest of the EU. | :22:19. | :22:26. | |
Our trade unions represent four million people who think we should | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
stay. I would rather this on to them than you. Do you think the European | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
Union is a growing, successful scheme that people would join today | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
if we were not already a member? Yes no? Yes. We ended there, I thank you | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
both for that. So, this week both sides of this | :22:45. | :22:46. | |
referendum have really The big set-piece TV | :22:47. | :22:49. | |
grillings have begun. Senior Conservatives have been | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
knocking lumps out of each other. And the Labour machine seems finally | :22:53. | :22:54. | |
to have creaked into life. We'll be talking about | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
all of that today. But, first, our Adam's been | :22:58. | :22:59. | |
on the buses to see where this | :23:00. | :23:01. | |
campaign is heading. There's livestock, | :23:02. | :23:02. | |
there's Boris Johnson, and there's a man | :23:03. | :23:04. | |
with a stuffed animal. Well, I suppose I could have | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
accidentally bought the cow This was the week the referendum | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
started to feel a bit more like a general election | :23:13. | :23:21. | |
campaign, and not just because of | :23:22. | :23:23. | |
the photo op. Vote Leave unveiled | :23:24. | :23:25. | |
a spending commitment, cutting the VAT on domestic fuel, | :23:26. | :23:26. | |
and a whole new immigration system - And here Boris told farmers | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
that their subsidies would be safe, even if the UK left the EU - | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
not everyone was convinced. There's no authority, no power, | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
he's just a person that's walked in here | :23:40. | :23:46. | |
and said what he's got to say. You could say it, I could | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
say it, I can promise. First of all, | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
where are your wellies? Are you getting a bit | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
of grief from the farmers? No, there's a lot of | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
support, a lot of support, and a lot of people | :24:03. | :24:05. | |
coming up to me and saying, "We are with you, | :24:06. | :24:08. | |
we want to come out." Some people, obviously, need | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
reassurance about the subsidies, He left - without offering me | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
a lift, so I caught the train, to Birmingham, | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
and the Labour in campaign. But this week Jeremy Corbyn | :24:21. | :24:23. | |
made a big speech after it emerged many Labour supporters didn't know | :24:24. | :24:30. | |
the party was in favour of the EU. Do you think that was | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
a great speech from JC? Jeremy's journey, if you like, | :24:35. | :24:36. | |
which mirrors the journeys that many have made on this, | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
he was a Eurosceptic in '75, and I think he's more powerful | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
for that. Our journey took us to a building | :24:49. | :24:54. | |
site to see investment from abroad that the Remain campaign claim | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
is linked to our EU membership. Of course, with foreign | :24:58. | :25:00. | |
money comes foreigners. How are you going to vote? | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
No, come out. Why's that? Because of all the immigrants | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
and things like that. Too many of them now | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
coming into this country. Well, inevitably, | :25:13. | :25:15. | |
I've ended up in one of these This week, the Remain campaign | :25:16. | :25:17. | |
got some high visibility backing from foreign leaders - | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
in Spain, the Netherlands, the former Foreign Secretary | :25:22. | :25:24. | |
David Miliband. Some people might say | :25:25. | :25:31. | |
that you live in America now, you are one of these high-profile | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
foreigners coming over and lecturing us on what to do, | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
what do you say to that? I'm a British voter, | :25:39. | :25:41. | |
and I'm able to speak with passion about my own country, | :25:42. | :25:44. | |
this is my home country, and although it's not where I live | :25:45. | :25:46. | |
and work at the moment, I still feel that there is | :25:47. | :25:49. | |
a real obligation to speak not just to the economic issues | :25:50. | :25:51. | |
and the security issues, but also the foreign-policy | :25:52. | :25:54. | |
issues, frankly. to ride on Britain Stronger | :25:55. | :25:55. | |
in Europe's luxury coach, or hop onto Nigel Farage's | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
double-decker. You wait ages for a referendum | :26:00. | :26:02. | |
battle bus to come along, So, you heard Alan Johnson there | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
defending Jeremy Corbyn's latest intervention in the referendum | :26:06. | :26:12. | |
campaign, despite critics claiming that Labour hasn't exactly been | :26:13. | :26:14. | |
full-throated in its campaign Well, the former Deputy Prime | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
Minister and veteran Labour campaigner John Prescott | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
seems to agree. He says in his newspaper column | :26:24. | :26:26. | |
today that his party's message | :26:27. | :26:28. | |
hasn't been getting through. John Prescott, good morning to you. | :26:29. | :26:42. | |
Good morning. You say in your column that the Conservatives have hijacked | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
the campaign, why has Labour allowed that to happen? It is a good point, | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
I suggested in the paper that it seems almost to have been the | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
strategy, blue on blue destroying the Tory party, hopefully, we will | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
have to wait and see! We saw that in the broadcasts this morning, but | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
where is Labour? It seems as if we are just enjoying the fight between | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
them, but that is not putting our position. Labour maybe in the | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
European Union, I support being in it, but we're not putting the | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
arguments, and so when you see on a bus there, for example, on Boris's | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
bus, ?350 million a week to put into the health service, this is from a | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
government that reduced from 9% of GDP the average in Europe to 7%, and | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
when they go on with a Labour politician in this way, Gisela, the | :27:34. | :27:40. | |
Tories get the publicity, and they are in the background. We are not | :27:41. | :27:43. | |
putting down the record of the Tories, they cannot do it because | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
they are in a joint agreement on a bus about Europe. Let me just get | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
another question in, as a result of everything you say, are you worried | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
that you are failing to galvanise the Labour vote, do get it out to | :27:58. | :28:03. | |
vote for Remain on the 23rd? Absolutely! Labour people want to | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
hear Labour people talking about this government's record, whether | :28:08. | :28:10. | |
they are four in or out, they carried out a record that is | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
basically destroying our health service, housing was halved in | :28:15. | :28:23. | |
billions, and now they say they will bring it. Michael Gove says all | :28:24. | :28:25. | |
these terrible bankers, why didn't the vote with Labour to stop the | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
bonuses for them? He didn't, he doesn't, they are hypocritical, we | :28:30. | :28:32. | |
must show that Labour has strong values, we believe in social | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
justice. When you have heard Tories talking about being social justice?! | :28:37. | :28:44. | |
Look Labour, at Labour. Maybe Labour voters are confused, when you look | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
at Jeremy Corbyn's pro EU speech, he spent as much time attacking the | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
Tories and EU policies. Good on Jeremy! By Sea said the bad things | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
predicted by Vote Leave work addicted by those who say we should | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
remain, that all the scare stories were just myth-making and prophecies | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
of doom. Is it any surprise that Labour voters are confused? Yes, but | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
I do not think we should talk too much about what we should do, Jeremy | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
is not a passionate man, he does not scream and shout like me, does he?! | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
But to that extent, our people want to see, and this is what has | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
happened to politics, people speak and do believe what they are saying! | :29:29. | :29:34. | |
On both sides, Cameron's side, Boris Johnson, they are saying things that | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
they did not do in government, which Labour oppose, and they are against | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
social justice. We want a Labour Europe, different to them, not, we | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
all believe in Europe, let's travel on the same bus! No wonder people | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
are confused, get a strong Labour voice, and glad Jeremy said what he | :29:55. | :29:57. | |
said, but point out what these beggars did in government! | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
What about the confusion, even Damian McBride caught on Twitter | :30:03. | :30:12. | |
offering policy tips to the Brexit campaign. | :30:13. | :30:12. | |
Labour voters seem to be confused. I don't say that the Europe they | :30:13. | :30:41. | |
want is the one I want. I took part in the last referendum. Despite the | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
Tories not giving us a referendum and taking us in 1975 into the | :30:46. | :30:52. | |
common market. I do believe, I was against a political Europe. In fact, | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
I turned down a job with Jim Callaghan to be commissioner. On | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
that ground, I thought that is where they were heading. | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
I can't say it has stopped. What we argued then was for a wider Europe | :31:05. | :31:13. | |
so we didn't move along the federal Europe case. That is still an | :31:14. | :31:15. | |
argument to be fought for, I feel strongly, Labour does. I'm not sure | :31:16. | :31:17. | |
the Tories pursued it. Sadiq Khan, tested Jarrell, Harriet | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
Harman, they have appeared with Tories, including the Prime | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
Minister. You refused, but last night you were appearing on Russia | :31:28. | :31:35. | |
Today, a Putin propaganda channel, with Ken Livingstone, he has been | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
suspended from your party, have you thought this through? | :31:39. | :31:46. | |
Of course. I don't go in joint party operations, I never have. I didn't | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
when I fought the Labour in 1975. I am the same. I am not saying they | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
can't or shouldn't. We are saying the Labour vote is crucial and there | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
is confusion as to the Labour position. | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
Standing alongside Tory politicians, the survey has recently shown most | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
of the speeches that come out of that are Tory spokesmen. 48% Tory, | :32:10. | :32:16. | |
8% Labour. Why are we confused? Like in Scotland, if you appear alongside | :32:17. | :32:27. | |
them bring on Europe, you better start telling people what you | :32:28. | :32:29. | |
disagree about. Jeremy is trying to do that. I | :32:30. | :32:31. | |
wouldn't do it, it adds to the confusion. If you can't get the | :32:32. | :32:34. | |
Labour vote out in big numbers, are you worried you could lose this | :32:35. | :32:36. | |
referendum? Yes. I want every Labour person in | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
to vote. I fought on the last one thinking we would win on the | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
referendum, and we lost, mainly it was particularly women, they get | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
concerned about the long-term, their children, security, I think that is | :32:51. | :32:56. | |
what defeated as in 1975. Seriously, I think it will go the other way. We | :32:57. | :33:05. | |
need to be talking about the big powers. It is not Britain on its | :33:06. | :33:11. | |
own, it is global powers, America, India, China, who will decide the | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
issue about crime, immigration, security. We will be a little island | :33:16. | :33:21. | |
shouting out, don't you recognise we are a big power. But we will have no | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
say in a global decision. Jeremy Corbyn has hinted he might | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
bring Ed Miliband into the Shadow Cabinet. What about you, are you | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
available? I have done my bit for the Labour | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
Party, except shouting on the side as I do. That is his decision. I | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
want to see a united party. One of the things is people are confused | :33:46. | :33:53. | |
because of these changes. Where does Labour stand? Start talking about it | :33:54. | :34:01. | |
and be clearer on immigration. We have been cowards, the whole | :34:02. | :34:04. | |
political establishment has avoided the argument. That is a global | :34:05. | :34:12. | |
solution. There will be more migration coming from African | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
countries which have no water or food because of climate change. This | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
is not a temporary problem but a global problem and needs a global | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
solution and not a little country on the side shouting and staying out of | :34:26. | :34:29. | |
it. Thank you. | :34:30. | :34:31. | |
Now, even if plenty folks are still undecided, | :34:32. | :34:33. | |
you might think most Mps will have made their mind up as to how they'll | :34:34. | :34:36. | |
It's only two-and-a-half weeks to go, after all. | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
But, according to our research, there at still 26 undecided Tory | :34:40. | :34:42. | |
Well, we're going to reduce that number by one today, | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
as the Conservative MP Johnny Mercer is here to reveal for the first time | :34:47. | :34:49. | |
What is your decision? The first thing to say is, like a lot of | :34:50. | :35:03. | |
people, being out on the doors of Plymouth, we are disappointed by the | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
level of debate. Even today. | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
What is your decision? It is important to get this across. | :35:11. | :35:17. | |
But tell me, leave or remain? Two Government ministers saying the | :35:18. | :35:19. | |
Government is not telling the truth about the economy which has upset | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
people. In terms of this referendum, it is | :35:24. | :35:30. | |
clear we should remain, not a single economic expert has come out and | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
said this will do things for our economy, our jobs. | :35:35. | :35:37. | |
If you look at what this garment has delivered in places like Plymouth | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
around jobs, the single biggest factor in improving people's life | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
chances, it has done good things. It is the economic case. | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
And a security case. Why do the people of Plymouth seem not | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
convinced quite a recent polls say they were largely for Leave. | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
A poll I have been running has come out and said that. | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
When this debate started, I said this was an issue, not the issue. It | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
has become clear. I did not think we would vote to leave the EU. This is | :36:09. | :36:14. | |
a vote of singular importance to this country. People have begun to | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
forget we need to get on with Government on June 24. | :36:20. | :36:22. | |
That may be the case. But do you think you can win on the economic | :36:23. | :36:30. | |
arguments? With the economic arguments, there are single clear | :36:31. | :36:32. | |
points. On the economy, the people who | :36:33. | :36:39. | |
always feel the worst affected, it is always the most vulnerable. | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
Always those who file like a desperate struggle. My area of | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
Plymouth is still categorised by the EU as a deprived area in parts. They | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
cannot take that shock. It is OK for others to say we can go to this | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
nirvana. The truth is the same people are affected. | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
Why do 74% in your constituency say... | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
That is a very small poll. But it is indicative of the mood, | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
74%. People will feel more passionate | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
about leaving because for some people this is a single issue. They | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
have been looking for a reason to come out and leave the EU. I think | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
the vast majority do not want to leave. You are looking at where we | :37:23. | :37:29. | |
are now it is not perfect. We are on this trajectory. Do we throw it away | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
for a nirvana no one can quite lay their hands on. Could the most | :37:35. | :37:40. | |
vulnerable in the UK who rely on a job, on the NHS, public service | :37:41. | :37:43. | |
funding, could they withstand that shock? I can look them in the eye | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
and say, I went this based on something that sounded like a great | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
idea but I could not go for it. It has loads of problems. | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
Why take so long? Thinking about Europe is not something I got into | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
politics today about. I have spoken to a lot of people. It | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
would be naive to suggest there are reasons why people want to leave. On | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
balance, it is a clear case. Society is judged by how it looks after its | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
vulnerable. We have to remain part of the EU to continue to do that. It | :38:17. | :38:22. | |
isn't perfect. Thank you for coming on and telling | :38:23. | :38:24. | |
us how you will vote on June 23. We say goodbye to viewers | :38:25. | :38:26. | |
in Scotland who leave us now Good morning and welcome | :38:27. | :38:36. | |
to Sunday Politics Scotland. the Western Isles voted no | :38:37. | :38:37. | |
in the referendum on the EEC. As we approach the next vote | :38:38. | :38:47. | |
on Europe, we've been back to find Former Labour leaders | :38:48. | :38:50. | |
urge members to turn out We'll be asking John Edward, | :38:51. | :39:00. | |
spokesperson for Scotland After the tragic death of Liam Fee - | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
the children's commissioner says questions about | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
the Named Persons Act But is there a genuine public | :39:10. | :39:10. | |
interest at stake? When the UK last held | :39:11. | :39:19. | |
a referendum on Europe - 41 years ago today - | :39:20. | :39:21. | |
the Western Isles was one of only two regions to reject continued | :39:22. | :39:24. | |
membership of what was then In other words, the Western Isles | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
have never formally endorsed So what will they do | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
on June the 23rd - Our political correspondent, | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
Glenn Campbell, has been travelling Remote and rugged. These islands are | :39:39. | :39:59. | |
on the very edge of the European Union. The Western Isles are a world | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
away from the governments in Edinburgh and London, never mind the | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
bureaucracy in Brussels. Here on the Atlantic coast, its next stop | :40:10. | :40:17. | |
America. But that is not to see EU membership doesn't matter year. It | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
really does. Traditional island industries like Harris to read, | :40:24. | :40:29. | |
export worldwide, including too many countries across the EU. And at this | :40:30. | :40:37. | |
mill they worry that a vote to leave could disrupt the single market. We | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
have concerns about it. It is easy for us to trade with Europe and any | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
constrictions are issues that might affect that is a concern for us as | :40:47. | :40:52. | |
business and major employer in the Hebrides. How do you hope the vote | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
business and major employer in the will go? We hope the vote will go | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
over staying in Europe and staying in terms of what we have in terms of | :41:02. | :41:08. | |
trade and the ability to trade with our partners neighbours in Europe. | :41:09. | :41:11. | |
Phishing also depends on free trade across the EU, selling much of its | :41:12. | :41:20. | |
catch to France and Spain. But in this harbour the fleet is smaller | :41:21. | :41:23. | |
than it once was and to many here blame the EU's Common fisheries | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
policy. This processor wants local fishermen freed from EU rules on | :41:28. | :41:30. | |
when and where they can finish, what they can catch and what can be | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
brought ashore. I think it would be better because the boats here would | :41:36. | :41:43. | |
be allowed to land what the catch, as sensible phishing, rather than | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
this EU regulation. There are people in Europe who do not know where we | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
are, don't understand phishing, the same way we do not understand the | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
phishing in the Mediterranean. How frustrating is that? Very | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
frustrating when you see boats catching by catch and they have to | :42:05. | :42:07. | |
dump it. You are on the key and you have to go to Peterhead to buy | :42:08. | :42:12. | |
phishing get back to the islands. It does not add up but we have to do | :42:13. | :42:19. | |
it. Euro scepticism is nothing new on these islands. It is almost a | :42:20. | :42:25. | |
tradition. In the last referendum in 1975, Shetland and the Western Isles | :42:26. | :42:33. | |
were the only two parts of the UK to say no to continued membership of | :42:34. | :42:35. | |
what was then the European economic community. The vote here were 70 - | :42:36. | :42:42. | |
30 against, so this is one of only two places in the country never to | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
have endorsed the idea of European integration. While some things have | :42:48. | :42:56. | |
hardly changed in the Hebrides, in the 41 years since that Fort, a | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
great deal has moved on. You would struggle to find anywhere in the UK | :43:02. | :43:07. | |
that has benefited more from EU investment than transport | :43:08. | :43:10. | |
infrastructure. That is where much of the money to build the bridge | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
connecting the island of Scalby to Harris came from. Even yet even in | :43:15. | :43:21. | |
this tiny community, unease with the European Union is not hard to find. | :43:22. | :43:28. | |
It is so alien to me. Things happening in Brussels. A whole lot | :43:29. | :43:36. | |
of people in Germany and France and these sorts of placing deciding what | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
is good to happen here. Is there a feeling in the Western Isles that | :43:41. | :43:46. | |
people here do not like being told what to do by people from beyond the | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
Western Isles? I think that is right. I think people don't | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
generally. Independent mindedness is part of the character here. For folk | :43:59. | :44:04. | |
-- Kumble says of the EU debate. Travelling through the islands, | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
there is hard-headed calculation to. At the boat yard, this young man who | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
makes his living from both fishing and crofting is weighing up what is | :44:14. | :44:21. | |
best for him. I am torn on that at the moment. I have seen on social | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
media fishermen like myself I was planning on voting out. But I come | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
from a crofting heritage. You get a lot of EU subsidies which we might | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
be losing out on. You cannot do that without getting your subsidies, how | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
little or how big, they do help people. If this vote was tomorrow | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
and you had to make up your mind, which we would you go? I would vote | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
to stay in the European Union. The safer option, really. We have heard | :44:50. | :44:56. | |
a lot on our travels down through the Western Isles about the roads, | :44:57. | :45:02. | |
bridges, peers that have been built partly through European Union | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
funding, that have made these islands so much more accessible and | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
perhaps there is no better example than this, the Causeway, linking | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
South Uist with the island of men escape. -- Eriskay. Investment will | :45:16. | :45:27. | |
be harder to come by in future because it means the Highlands and | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
Islands are competing for cash with more disadvantaged regions in | :45:32. | :45:38. | |
Eastern Europe. On the Isle of Barra, this crofter and oyster | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
Farmer believes the benefits of being in the EU, including subsidies | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
under the Common agricultural caps that right policy cap, will I weigh | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
any disadvantages. There is a lot more to be said of being in the EU | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
than being out. In what way, the crofting side of me says, that is | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
the cap, the benefits that come through that to be in -- me and the | :46:04. | :46:10. | |
broader community. And the Oyster farming point of view which is more | :46:11. | :46:18. | |
important, is a huge market, France, 200,000 oysters a year. It is | :46:19. | :46:22. | |
important we have access to that market. The other side of is that | :46:23. | :46:28. | |
there is a lot of benefit that comes to argument to through rural | :46:29. | :46:31. | |
development which comes through EU funding. It is better for us because | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
it comes back through there. This factory is the largest employer on | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
this island and even though even -- much of the langoustine and scallops | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
are sold to other EU countries, bosses here would prefer the UK to | :46:47. | :46:54. | |
leave the union. From the fishermen's perspective, about. Why? | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
They are not listening to the fisher men and what their needs are. There | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
is someone in Brussels making decisions which impact on this | :47:04. | :47:06. | |
fragile livelihood on this island and the islands around. They are | :47:07. | :47:12. | |
confident new trading arrangements will be agreed without damage to | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
their business. With the European market, what is stopping us selling | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
to Europe? Who is going to say you cannot buy it? If a company in Spain | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
says we can buy your product and would like to, who says we cannot | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
sell that anyway? Why should we be governed by Europe dictating when it | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
goes, how it goes. Whichever way the vote goes, it is clear as these | :47:36. | :47:42. | |
Atlantic waters that the decision to stay in or to leave really matters | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
here. The outcome will make a material difference to the way of | :47:48. | :47:52. | |
life in this room or region of the EU, just as is it dead after the | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
last referendum for decades ago. -- it did. | :47:58. | :47:59. | |
Joining me now is John Edward, who is campaign spokesperson | :48:00. | :48:01. | |
John Edward, if I am a supporter of Independence for Scotland, as many | :48:02. | :48:14. | |
people are, almost half the population, and I want a second EU | :48:15. | :48:20. | |
Referendum Bill Nicola Sturgeon intermittently and Alex Salmond | :48:21. | :48:23. | |
incessantly telling you that if Scotland votes to Remain, but the UK | :48:24. | :48:33. | |
votes to leave, surely I am dying for Britain to leave? I am not here | :48:34. | :48:41. | |
to and search any political party. If you encourage Scottish people to | :48:42. | :48:49. | |
leave with a vote of a second kind at some point, means we leave. If I | :48:50. | :48:52. | |
am a supporter of independence, I might think Remain might win anyway. | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
I might vote for relief because I want Britain to leave and I want | :48:58. | :49:06. | |
Scotland to see. I want to help the grand total of leave. I do not want | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
anyone to think that we will vote to leave anyway. Scotland has a big | :49:12. | :49:14. | |
influence in the sport. The figures are close enough to tell us but | :49:15. | :49:20. | |
Scotland votes Remain, that will make a significant impact to the | :49:21. | :49:26. | |
vote. I asked you people who are saying I am not bothered. I want a | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
second independence referendum. The vest vote from me is that Scotland | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
votes to stay. There is no other question until June the 23rd. The | :49:37. | :49:43. | |
only way you will get past it and get into a situation where Scotland | :49:44. | :49:47. | |
is in a different case, is if you vote remain. During the first | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
independence referendum, everyone from the president from the European | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
Commission downwards said that Scotland would not be, an | :49:57. | :50:03. | |
independent Scotland would not automatically be admitted into the | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
EU. Some of the Nordic leaders said they do not want Scotland to become | :50:09. | :50:11. | |
independent. Why should I want to vote for that lot? You are voting | :50:12. | :50:14. | |
for the United Kingdom to stay as part of this voting block. What we | :50:15. | :50:25. | |
have got to remember is that it is our voice in Europe that is | :50:26. | :50:32. | |
involved. The vast majority of all trading partners within the EU and | :50:33. | :50:34. | |
whether it would like us to stay part of the system, that seems to be | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
a consensus that is building by the day. Is there a democratic deficit | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
in the UK? There is to a certain extent because there is a perceived | :50:46. | :50:50. | |
democratic deficits. If people do not think it is closer, then that is | :50:51. | :50:58. | |
a deficit. No law, and that is something I have had to tackle | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
across Holland, no law can be passed without your elected, British | :51:03. | :51:05. | |
elected minister and UK elected MEPs passing it. In terms of democracy, | :51:06. | :51:18. | |
bills are drafted, bills are put out to public consultation, they go | :51:19. | :51:19. | |
through Parliamentary committees. After the last European elections, | :51:20. | :51:30. | |
it was said that in fact we had been voting on whether John Claude Yunker | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
or his opponent should become president of the European | :51:36. | :51:41. | |
Commission. Can you just remind us of which party won that election? | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
There is not one political party. There are 303 political parties. The | :51:48. | :51:53. | |
centre-right party won, but that is as narrow definition as it gets. Not | :51:54. | :52:01. | |
many Scottish people care about that and that is my point. If people | :52:02. | :52:04. | |
many Scottish people care about that perceive it to be far-away... We | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
were told boss to mislead, as it were that we were voting for her | :52:10. | :52:15. | |
president of the European Commission and John Claude Yunker became | :52:16. | :52:22. | |
president... The member states said we will respect the majority vote in | :52:23. | :52:29. | |
the European union elections in terms of appointing a president and | :52:30. | :52:38. | |
they took that and that is why he became president. I am sure some | :52:39. | :52:46. | |
people in Scotland followed the events of Mr Yunker as things carry | :52:47. | :52:58. | |
but... He is only a head of civil service. He is not a president or a | :52:59. | :53:05. | |
Prime Minister. Let's not told European Parliament to a stronger | :53:06. | :53:11. | |
standing. But it is not just in Britain. No one identifies with the | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
European Union as a democratic entity. Surely much better to go | :53:16. | :53:17. | |
back to having the British Parliament and Scottish Parliament | :53:18. | :53:24. | |
as our democracy? They are our sovereign bodies and will always be. | :53:25. | :53:27. | |
The European Union is not and never will be. It is an entirely different | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
system in world politics, I will admit, but we have political control | :53:32. | :53:35. | |
United Nations. Have decided to save United Nations. Have decided to save | :53:36. | :53:40. | |
-- share our power into it to get the best out of it. Let's take an | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
example. You make the point, correctly, that the commission can | :53:46. | :53:48. | |
initiate legislation but it has to be approved by member states. Take | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
the working Time directive. I know a lot of people in Scotland would be | :53:54. | :53:56. | |
in favour of this because they think it gives them protection but whether | :53:57. | :54:02. | |
you are in favour of it or not, it was passed despite the protest of | :54:03. | :54:08. | |
British government, the European Commission then said it was health | :54:09. | :54:15. | |
and safety legislation, meaning that the European Court of Justice could | :54:16. | :54:18. | |
impose it on Britain, even though the elected government of Britain at | :54:19. | :54:21. | |
that time did not want anything to do with it. In what even tortured | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
European sense cannot be said to be democratic? Two things. One, the | :54:27. | :54:32. | |
European Court of justice can only act when it's given me the -- given | :54:33. | :54:45. | |
the possibility of doing so. Take, you can opt out of the working Time | :54:46. | :54:48. | |
directive and I know that because I did sign one a view months ago. But | :54:49. | :54:54. | |
that is an individual opt out. This was about opting out of the whole | :54:55. | :55:02. | |
thing and it was imposed upon us. It was not imposed. It was challenged | :55:03. | :55:04. | |
in court just as the Scottish whiskey industry challenged in | :55:05. | :55:12. | |
court. This was opposed by British government and yet it became law. | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
Nonetheless, individuals can opt out as I have. That is not the point. We | :55:17. | :55:23. | |
could not opt out as a country. It went through the procedures of | :55:24. | :55:26. | |
Parliamentary scrutiny, two sets of votes. It is exactly as laws go | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
through Holyrood and Parliament. Not everyone agrees with those evil but | :55:32. | :55:40. | |
to suggest that they have total power, it can only act when we allow | :55:41. | :55:51. | |
them to. We can still opt out. You are an individual -- you are | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
An opt out if they opt out will stop An opt out if they opt out will stop | :55:57. | :56:05. | |
-- an opt out is an opt out. Let's leave it there. Politicians have | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
said for a long time, we will not leave it there. Politicians have | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
have anything to do with Schengen, with the new refugees act, when it | :56:14. | :56:21. | |
comes to a referendum and they say, you know this thing we've been | :56:22. | :56:24. | |
standing up to four decades is terrific and we want you to vote for | :56:25. | :56:30. | |
it, don't they have a problem? Absolutely and it has been a | :56:31. | :56:33. | |
perennial problem and that is why leave is able to go out and say | :56:34. | :56:36. | |
things about migration and the NHS which simply bear no relation to | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
reality because we, the country which have signed the treaty is, we | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
the one with the sovereign power in the EU, have refused to make the | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
case to our people as to why we are in their in the first place. That is | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
a problem we have to overcome. I have spent as much time over the | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
last four months explaining what the European union doesn't do as saying | :56:59. | :57:01. | |
what it does do. We have to believe that it has powers that are way | :57:02. | :57:07. | |
beyond what it actually has... British governments have not helped | :57:08. | :57:08. | |
you? No, but you will find other British governments have not helped | :57:09. | :57:17. | |
European country's government explaining the same thing. It is not | :57:18. | :57:23. | |
Brussels. Brussels is 28 member states and the power is within | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
those, not in Brussels. Had he been helped with some of the rhetoric by | :57:28. | :57:33. | |
the remaining side? -- have you been helped? You would think the world | :57:34. | :57:42. | |
was going to end if we left the European Union. It is perfectly | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
feasible for an independent Britain to negotiate traders with other | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
European countries. It would not be catastrophic. You could argue that | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
it may be stronger one way or the other but the alarmist rhetoric is | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
out of control, isn't it? I think the scale of it and expecting people | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
to judge whether an enormous figure from the IMF is one thing but we are | :58:04. | :58:10. | |
making a case on what we know to be true. We know there are risks in | :58:11. | :58:17. | |
leaving. The other side are making cases based on we don't know what. | :58:18. | :58:21. | |
There is no white Paper. We still have a veto over things in Europe | :58:22. | :58:27. | |
and discovering pots of money like bumblebees go round flowers is... | :58:28. | :58:35. | |
There is a reasonable economic case to say Britain could do well. I have | :58:36. | :58:42. | |
never said there is not some case but I genuinely believe we have | :58:43. | :58:46. | |
become healthier, wealthier, better educated as being part of the | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
European Union and we would be crazy to get rid of that. We will have | :58:52. | :58:54. | |
European Union and we would be crazy leave it there. Thank you. | :58:55. | :58:56. | |
The government's flagship Named Persons policy came under | :58:57. | :58:58. | |
fire again this week, following the conviction of Rachel | :58:59. | :59:00. | |
and Nyomi Fee for the murder of Rachel's two-year-old son Liam. | :59:01. | :59:03. | |
He was killed at the family's home in Fife, one of the areas | :59:04. | :59:06. | |
in Scotland which is piloting a similar initiative. | :59:07. | :59:08. | |
A serious case review has been announced to look into the exact | :59:09. | :59:11. | |
circumstances surrounding the toddler's death, | :59:12. | :59:12. | |
but questions about whether he had a single-point-of-contact worker | :59:13. | :59:14. | |
have been met with accusations of political posturing. | :59:15. | :59:18. | |
A short while ago, I spoke to the Children's Commissioner | :59:19. | :59:20. | |
Tam Baillie, who has written to a newspaper about this issue. | :59:21. | :59:28. | |
The Liam Fee case, obviously a very tragic case. You wrote an article in | :59:29. | :59:37. | |
the Sunday Times about it today. The third sentence of that article says, | :59:38. | :59:45. | |
Liam's death has been used by some as the furthering a campaign about | :59:46. | :59:51. | |
the Named Persons Act and it is unforgivable because the tragic loss | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
of a child should be above the political posturing. What do you | :59:55. | :59:59. | |
mean? There are two reasons. First of all, Liam Fee's death is an | :00:00. | :00:04. | |
absolute tragedy and it affects the individuals involved, the | :00:05. | :00:07. | |
communities and, indeed, the whole workforce that is involved in that. | :00:08. | :00:14. | |
The sad fact is, no child protection services in the world can offer | :00:15. | :00:17. | |
The sad fact is, no child protection assurances that it will be | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
fail-safe. That is the first thing. This is a real tragedy. The second | :00:22. | :00:31. | |
thing is the Named Persons Act service and that is a low-level, | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
early warning system for when things are at an early stage of going wrong | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
in a child's life and I can't contact up -- comment on the details | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
of the Liam Fee's case but we do know this was a Charlton known to | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
social workers. That puts that incident way beyond normal case... I | :00:51. | :00:58. | |
do take your point but what about the facts of this case? Fife was a | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
pilot area for the scheme, wasn't it? Regardless of whether Liam Fee | :01:05. | :01:12. | |
had a named person or not, I would say this was a child who was in a | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
system where it was obvious to people that he was way beyond that | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
early warning, early intervention. I get the point, but why don't you | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
know? I can't comment on the details get the point, but why don't you | :01:27. | :01:35. | |
of the case. You could have contacted Fife Council and asked | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
what the arrangements were in place? It was not my job to look into that. | :01:39. | :01:45. | |
There is a significant case review and I said in the article, we have | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
to leave the people in the significant case review to look at | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
the totality of actions taken to identify where the errors were made | :01:53. | :01:59. | |
in terms of the case. Don't you think before you wrote an article in | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
a national newspaper saying people were indulging in political | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
posturing and that their behaviour was unforgivable, as the Children's | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
Commissioner for Scotland, it might have been a good idea for you to | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
contact Fife Council and the Scottish Government and ascertain | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
the facts of the case? Even if there is a named person for Liam Fee, that | :02:20. | :02:26. | |
really is not the point in terms of that child being known to social | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
workers. That means they should have been systems in place to ensure the | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
safety of that child rather than the named person. I understand that. | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
John Sweeney the other day said there was a person, a point of | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
contact, but not in terms of the legislation. That is what he said. | :02:49. | :02:55. | |
Do you know what that means? I presume that he is saying there was | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
a person who was a point of contact somewhere with regard to the | :02:59. | :03:01. | |
handling of the child protection case. I can't comment on whether or | :03:02. | :03:09. | |
not... Again, I would put it to you, many people watching this would say, | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
hang on a minute. This guy is the Children's Commissioner for | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
Scotland. He is writing articles in national newspapers condemning | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
people for asking questions apropos of this case about the Named Persons | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
Act and he hasn't even bothered to find out what the facts are. I am | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
saying that it is wrong for us to link the named person with instances | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
of children who are within the system and whether there are | :03:38. | :03:44. | |
failings there or not. That is quite separate from those children who are | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
already identified with serious concerns and we will find from the | :03:49. | :03:51. | |
significant case review as to where those failings -- whether those | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
failings took place in this instance. The main point is that | :03:56. | :04:02. | |
this scheme is being piloted in places like the Highlands, it is | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
being piloted in Fife will stop if there was a named person in this | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
case, even a named person but not in terms of the legislation, as John | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
Sweeney put it, quite clearly it has not worked. A named person, as I | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
said earlier, is not supposed to be dealing with those children already | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
identified as being of serious concern, where they should be a plan | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
around it, where a number of different agencies should be around | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
it. Again, I accept your point that it might not be sticky relevant in | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
terms of this case, because this child was known to do that -- to | :04:39. | :04:45. | |
children services, but what's at stake here is a flagship policy of | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
children services, but what's at the Scottish Government and I fail | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
to understand why, first of all, you haven't tried to find out what is | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
actually happening here and secondly why it is simply not relevant to | :04:58. | :04:59. | |
talk about the named person. He why it is simply not relevant to | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
described people who have been talking about this is behaving | :05:03. | :05:05. | |
unforgivably. What on earth do you mean? In the first instance, it has | :05:06. | :05:14. | |
to be left to the serious case review to establish the facts of the | :05:15. | :05:17. | |
case. I make that point in the article. The second one is that we | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
know, and I repeat, the named person is not designed to try to assist | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
those children where we are ready now there is another very serious | :05:27. | :05:33. | |
concerns. There should be vigilant in terms of protecting those | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
children or that child. If you had contacted Fife Council and said, I | :05:40. | :05:42. | |
want to know exactly what happened here, quite rightly they would | :05:43. | :05:44. | |
want to know exactly what happened said, no, there is a significant | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
case review, and you would have agreed with them, but if at the -- | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
but if as the Children's Commissioner you had said, can you | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
just tell me what the situation was with the named person, because I am | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
not prejudging the review. Was there with the named person, because I am | :06:05. | :06:11. | |
a named person in this case? Was it the full service or was it a limited | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
version of it, whatever that means? But you don't seem to have done | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
either of those things. As I have already said, in this instance, the | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
circumstances, the level of protection that is required, the | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
level of service that this child required, is way beyond that which | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
would be made available under the Named Persons Act. The point I'm | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
getting at is lack of transparency. If this is a flagship scheme, why | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
can't the government say, this is what the situation was and that is | :06:40. | :06:41. | |
that? There has been a lot of expectation | :06:42. | :06:53. | |
placed on and they named personally able to deal with all the instances | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
of concerns around children. The reason I have written the article is | :06:58. | :07:04. | |
that is not the case. I still do not understand who is behaving | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
unforgivably? I think people have been linking the named person | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
somehow with the terrible tragedy of... It is reasonable. There has | :07:17. | :07:23. | |
been no direct link made with named person and Liam Fee. The named | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
person is an early intervention, it is picking up children at an early | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
stage when there are concerns around children, rather than those children | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
we have to be intervening in the terms of child intervention. Some | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
charities have claimed that the Named Persons Act has been a success | :07:44. | :07:50. | |
in their region. Given this case, how are the public men to judge how | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
these pilot schemes are a success or not? There is an expectation about | :07:56. | :08:05. | |
what the named person's service is meant to do. It is an early pick-up, | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
we are concerned about children... How can we as a public know it is a | :08:12. | :08:18. | |
success or not? The government need to present the expectations of Named | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
Persons Act, what it will do. We have concerns about children who we | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
do not pick up early enough and problems that exacerbate. If we get | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
an early enough, we can support children and families at that stage. | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
Thank you very much, Tam Baillie. It's time to review the week | :08:38. | :08:39. | |
and to look ahead to what's coming I'm joined by Lynsey Bewes, | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
political reporter for the Press Association, | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
and by Kevin McKenna, Europe. Lindsay, are you getting | :08:47. | :09:00. | |
excited? We have seemed to have reached levels of massive stadium | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
over the European question this morning, everyone is wading in, from | :09:06. | :09:14. | |
Boris Johnson and John Major. It is claimed with mixed with counterclaim | :09:15. | :09:17. | |
as we saw and the Scottish referendum. I think the public are | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
going to be pretty fed up of hearing these claims from either side and | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
not getting facts, which we keep hearing they are looking for, shades | :09:26. | :09:32. | |
of the Scottish Independence Referendum Bill? Kevin, are you | :09:33. | :09:35. | |
excited about this? I am trying to be. I was listening very closely to | :09:36. | :09:42. | |
John Prescott earlier in the first part of the programme. Speaking | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
about the widespread perception, perhaps in the Labour Party, that | :09:47. | :09:52. | |
this is a blue on blue debate and struggle. The passion and fervour | :09:53. | :09:55. | |
and the mudslinging and the civil war that is going inside the | :09:56. | :10:03. | |
Conservative Party makes you think that Will they recover from this? | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
Will David Cameron be a casualty? But what is the debate for the rest | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
of us. John Prescott is right to say that Labour people need to get in | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
because we need people in the Labour Party to have a leg in this fight | :10:18. | :10:27. | |
and people in the SNP. If you are a big supporter of Scottish | :10:28. | :10:29. | |
independence, it is not clear what side... What side your dog should be | :10:30. | :10:38. | |
barking on. I will be interested to see the debate between Nicola | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
Sturgeon and Michael. The first question should be why you using the | :10:43. | :10:50. | |
same questions to stay in Europe when you were opposing the | :10:51. | :10:52. | |
independence referendum. That is why I wonder why the SNP are choosing to | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
get so involved. If I was them I would be distancing myself, let them | :10:58. | :11:04. | |
get on with it. I am not saying the SNP are playing a double game. I | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
think they would say they are not. But there is a double game here. If | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
you really want and India reft two, according to what the leadership of | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
the SNP is in, your best result would be Britain out of the European | :11:22. | :11:23. | |
Union and Scotland footing to stay. Union and Scotland footing to stay. | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
-- independence referendum two. Nicola Sturgeon has said that if we | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
have this dragging Scotland out of the EU in this Ford, there will be | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
she is saying a second vote on independence. She is kind of keeping | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
the party supporters happy there. But she is also sing she does not | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
want to see that happen. I think in a lot of ways Nicola Sturgeon does | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
not want to see that happen because the prospect of fighting for another | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
referendum, and vote for Scottish independence is made harder in some | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
ways by the UK leaving the EU. There are a whole host of other questions | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
which have not been addressed about that, currency, EU membership is | :12:09. | :12:15. | |
putting a whole different context. My main issue with independence for | :12:16. | :12:31. | |
Scotland, if I want, IndyRef two, how do I vote? Is that second | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
referendum going to be an easy referendum to win when all those | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
issues come back and they are within a different context. You could say | :12:44. | :12:46. | |
that that will be a tricky vote for Nicola Sturgeon to secure. My | :12:47. | :12:54. | |
hypothetical person is good to say, forget that, I want a second | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
independence referendum, which way should I vote? I am hearing this | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
from everybody who has got an nationalist heart. Their instincts | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
are saying I want to stay in because this will guarantee our employment | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
rights, a rates of equality, or protections at work. But I am also | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
passionate about having Scottish independence. Nicola Sturgeon and | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
Alex Salmond have said that Scotland footing to stay in and the rest of | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
the UK voting to stay out is a valid trigger. So tactically, maybe I | :13:30. | :13:36. | |
should be voting to come out of Europe. However, if the vote overall | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
is very, very close, then SNP supporters who are thinking of that, | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
may have to wonder what their wish, be fearful of what they are wishing | :13:48. | :13:49. | |
for. We will have to leave it there. I'll be back at the | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
same time next week. | :13:56. | :14:00. |