05/06/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


05/06/2016

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Just over a fortnight to go and the referendum

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debate is getting serious, with John Major launching a

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We'll be discussing the week's big developments

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campaigns, and we've got two big hitters for the price of one -

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I'll be joined by Labour's John Prescott,

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I'll be joined by Labour's John Prescott

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And if you haven't decided how to vote yet you're not the only one -

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one MP who's only now finally reached a decision will reveal

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live on air if he's backing Leave or Remain.

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Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland:

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We're taking the temperature on the EU with Scotland Stronger

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in Europe, and in the Western Isles which voted no to the EEC

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And, in a week in which one poll showed the public are three times

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more likely to trust the word of a random stranger

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And, in a week in which one poll showed the public are three times

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I'm joined by a political panel with the full authority

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It's Sam Coates, Isabel Oakeshott, and Janan Ganesh.

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We'll try and find some random strangers to replace

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them next week, and see if you notice the difference!

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So, in case you weren't sure just how high the stakes were in this

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referendum campaign, you only have to look at this

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morning's papers, and listen to former Prime Minister John Major

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taking aim at his fellow Tories in the Leave campaign.

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The current Prime Minister David Cameron tried to get his party

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to avoid so-called blue-on-blue attacks, in the hope of keeping

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It seems like John Major didn't get the message,

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as he accused the Leave campaign of squalid deceit,

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and called Boris Johnson a court jester.

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Here he is, talking to Andrew Marr earlier.

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This is going to affect people, their livelihoods, their future,

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for a very long time to come, and if they are given honest,

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straightforward facts and they decide to leave,

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then that is the decision the British people take.

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But if they decide to leave on the basis of inaccurate

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information, inaccurate information known to be inaccurate,

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Now, I may be wrong, but that is how I see their campaign.

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And this is so important, for once, I'm not prepared to give the benefit

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of the doubt to other people, I'm going to say

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And I think this is a deceitful campaign, and in terms

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of what they are saying about immigration, a really

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They are misleading people to an extraordinary extent.

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So, that was former Prime Minister John Major, but,

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when Boris Johnson took to the same sofa, he studiously declined

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to return fire when asked if those words were part of an attempt

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by the Remain campaign to "take him out".

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Whether it is or not, this morning I think that...

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I'm rather with John McDonnell this morning...

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He says that there's too much of this sort of blue-on-blue action,

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and what he wants to hear is the arguments,

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Boris failing to take the bait. As I said, John major hadn't got the

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memo from down the street, that was a joke.

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The fact was John Major was sent into the show by Downing Street to

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beat up on Boris. Is that an example, a testament to have rattled

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they are? My own evidence is they are very

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rattled, they got extremely twitchy about something I tweeted on Friday

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night where I suggested a prominent Remain person was appearing on sky.

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This shows the level of nerves in Downing Street. The kind of language

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being exchanged between senior figures in the party raises very

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serious questions about how the party comes together.

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We had Michael Gove this morning saying he thinks the party can come

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together on June the 24th. Of course they can, but I doubt it will be on

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June the 24th. It is quite remarkable for a

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Conservative Downing Street to get a former Conservative prime ministers

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to come onto the BBC, the main Sunday morning news show, Andrew

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Maher, and to beat up on the man who is currently favourite to be the

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Tory leader. That is almost unprecedented.

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John Major put his credibility on the line with phrases like squalid,

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depressing. He was going for Boris Johnson.

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There is a clear, strategic imperative behind what John Major

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was saying, he is trying to reduce Boris Johnson's credibility,

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currently the most popular and trusted figure in the EU debate.

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They are worried and trying to harm that.

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So, they are going for the man. The Big Questions this morning for

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Downing Street, and it is right to point fingers at Downing Street for

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pushing this kind of intervention, stiffening John Major's spines when

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it turned out Boris was going to be on the programme I think he had a

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bubble. That is my understanding. The danger

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is that Downing Street are encouraging this, to send this

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debate into a Tory blue-on-blue battle.

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The effect may well be to deter Labour voters.

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The people who want Britain to stay inside you need to do two things, to

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make sure Tory voters vote for Remain, and turn out the Remain vote

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against Labour and SNB voters. The question is whether having all

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the headlines dominated by this blue-on-blue fight -- SNP.

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It means people shrug and give up. It is more than just blue-on-blue.

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From what John Major said this morning, it seems Downing Street is

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prepared to trash the Tory brand, their own brand, in desperation to

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win on June the 23rd. John Major describing one of the

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likely people to be the ex-Tory leader -- next Tory leader as a

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court jester. Saying, if you put Michael Gove,

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Boris Johnson comic Iain Duncan Smith in charge of the NHS, is like

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giving your pet hamster to a buy them. A second Tory poster. How can

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you not conclude they are so desperate about June the 23rd they

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are prepared to trash their own party's brand.

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Short of using the B word when he thought the Microsoft when talking

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to Michael Brunson, it was very vociferous.

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It is true Boris Johnson did not retaliate in the interview. John

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Major and number ten would argue that retaliation was made very

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early, over the past few weeks, the Prime Minister's integrity on some

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questions had been brought into doubt by people in his own party.

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Without defending number ten's instructions to John Major if they

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exist, they feel aggrieved because of attacks during the campaign.

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Looking at the footage of John Major, I detect sincere emotion on

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his part, rather than being a mouthpiece.

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I did argue that he didn't mean what he said.

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As Sam was saying, he didn't want to come on.

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This is such an important development, it tells us about the

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remain camped. Now, staying with the EU referendum,

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today we're going to try Two well-informed campaigners,

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the Conservative MEP Dan Hannan and the Labour MP Emma Reynolds,

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will be interrogating each other I'll mostly just be sitting

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back to watch. A short while ago in our green room,

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they tossed a coin to see Emma is the winner, or loser,

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depending on your point of view, so they'll be the first

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to be cross-examined. They took a break in campaigning

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to make their pitch I'm Daniel Hannan, Conservative

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Member of the European Parliament, and I'm inviting you to fire me

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on the 23rd of June. First, because leaving

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is the modern choice. The European Union

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is a relic of the 1950s, when regional blocs

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looked like the future, but that world has been overtaken

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by technological change. Second, because it's

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the cheaper choice. Instead of handing Brussels

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?20 billion a year gross, 10 billion net, we'll have our money

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to spend on our priorities. We will take back the sublime right

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to hire and fire our own lawmakers. In a necessarily uncertain world,

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we will have taken back control to mitigate any risks ourselves

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instead of passing power to people who may not

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have our interests at heart. And fifth, because it's

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the confident choice. We are a merchant,

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maritime, global nation, the fifth largest economy

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on the planet, one of five permanent seat-holders

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on the UN Security Council. We have the world's most

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widely studied language, before we are able to run our own

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affairs in our own interests? Trading and cooperating with friends

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and allies on every continent, including Europe,

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but living under our own laws. So, here are Dan Hannan

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and Emma Reynolds. And, just to explain the rules,

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you've just five You can only ask questions,

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or only give answers. Nine out of ten economists and a

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string of organisations say leaving the EU would damage the economy,

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make families worse off, cause a recession, could you name an

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independent economic force -- economic forecaster who has said the

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opposite? Five former chancellors are

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campaigning to leave, plenty of economists, ...

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Gerard Lyons has said, although in favour of leaving, if we were to

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vote to leave, the two years, it would cause great uncertainty and

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depress the economy. He hasn't said that. He said that in

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a report. He hasn't. You will have to do

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better than that. He is strongly of the view leaving means walking away

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from a declining trade bloc and being able to leap up... And the

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uncertainty? All these international bodies...

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Hang on. The IMF, these are people who shared the outlook,

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international bureaucrats, they share the lifestyle, the tax-free

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lifestyle, they shared the basic outlook. Through euros, because that

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is the kind of circles they live in. The Institute for Fiscal Studies is

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widely respected, they have said by leaving we could blow a black hole

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of up to ?40 billion in our public finances, meaning less money for

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public services. They were feeding in the same basic

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data they got from these IMF, OECD organisations.

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They are independent. If I didn't think we would be better off as a

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whole, I would not be inviting viewers to make me redundant. The

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reason I am confident I will have a job in the private sector doing

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something more productive than regulating everyone else is we

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shouldn't be linked to the world is Oates only collapsing trade bloc.

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There are huge opportunity -- the world's. We are the only one that

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hasn't grown. Another question, you have described

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the NHS as the biggest 60 year mistake, why can the public trust

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the Leave campaign when they don't want the NHS to be in public hands?

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I said the mistake was having a nationalised system rather than a

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pluralist one as they have in almost every other industrialised country.

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The referendum is an instruction to the Government to get us out.

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It does not mean you are electing the boat Leave campaign, but giving

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a mandate to get us out on terms and in a timescale said to our allies

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across the control -- the channel but in our interests.

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We are really looking at a decision to leave and asking people not to

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trust any other politician but the British electorate.

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The weight of economic evidence is on the remain camped, you would

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admit that at least. Can you name a country that has

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access to the single market but does not accept free movement?

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The EU side free trade agreements with Colombia...

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You said access to the single market, every country in Europe has

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access to the single market. There is a free trade area from

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non-EU Iceland... Why therefore does Ireland and

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Norway faced agricultural tariffs of over 13%?

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Ireland and Norway? Icelands and Norway.

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Yes, they have wisely chosen to stay out of the Common Agricultural

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Policy. Their farmers are strongly in favour of staying out of the CIP.

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If we did the same thing, instead of being doubly penalised as a net food

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importer with efficient farms, paying more in, getting less out, we

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can have a British farming policy tailored to suit our needs.

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In Northern Ireland, you suggested the border would remain open between

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the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. How can you therefore

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guarantee that if you want to stop free movement, that European

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migrants would not come through that border? You are leaving the back

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door open. Illegal migrants could come through that border today but

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do not. They could come through legally. We have an agreement which

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includes the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, which are not in

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the, it long predates the EU. The point is it is possible now, don't

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take anyone's word for it, we have a common travel area with EU and

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non-EU states, no-one in Dublin or Westminster is suggesting that is a

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problem. We have only three seconds to go, tough and time in the

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interests of fairness! It is the dunnock Emma to be cross-examined,

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let's look at her pitch to undecided voters.

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We are stronger, safer and better off in Europe.

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Families benefit from lower prices, more jobs,

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Businesses benefit from a European single market

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Workers benefit from employment protection.

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We trade more with the EU than any other country.

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from companies like Jaguar Land Rover here in the West Midlands.

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And by staying in the EU, we will attract even more investment

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and create more jobs for the next generation.

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In the 21st century, the challenges that our country face

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no longer stop at the White Cliffs of Dover.

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Cross-border crime and terrorism, climate change -

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by working with our European partners,

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we can meet these challenges successfully.

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predicts that damage will be done to our economy if we leave.

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And the Bank of England Governor, Mark Carney,

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It would create a black hole in our public finances,

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meaning less money for our public services, like schools and the NHS.

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for more jobs, prosperity and security.

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As before, Dan, you now have five minutes

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to put your questions. Off you go.

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Thank you. As you know, the EU is not a settled dispensation, it is

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undergoing the Euro crisis, the Schengen crisis, migration problems,

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and it is evolving - what are the greatest risks of Remain? Well, you

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would keep your job! You seem to want to lose your job. I don't think

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that there are great risks of as remaining, because we have the best

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of both worlds. We are not in the eurozone, we have the pound as our

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currency, like eight other member states retain their currency, but we

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have unfettered access to the single market, and no other country... What

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can you tell us about budget contributions in ten or 15 years'

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time? I know what our budget contributions are today, not what is

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on the side of your bus. How many migrants might be resettled here?

:18:30.:18:31.

More came from outside of the EU than inside. Can you tell us how

:18:32.:18:35.

many bailouts we might be dragged into? Zero. So if we vote to stay

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in, even though we had a written guarantee in 2014 that which would

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not be dragged into a bailout, you trust them this time? You say that

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but you are a MEP. I am asking the questions. I think the ministers go

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to the Council of Ministers meetings, 97% of the votes won, we

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are not run by Eurocrats. You cannot answer any of the questions about

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how it might look if we stay in, so there are risks both ways. Is it

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safer to take back control to mitigate risks ourselves, or save a

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passing control to people who may not have our interests at heart? I

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do not know why you mistrust our European partners to such a great

:19:27.:19:31.

extent, because the challenges we face in the 21st century, climate

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change, cross-border crime, terrorism, those are challenges we

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share with our partners. Let me ask another question, in our country we

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have an example of a very high-minded, radical tradition that

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has been very good at dispersing power from oligarchs to the general

:19:46.:19:51.

population. As an heiress to the suffragettes and the chartists, do

:19:52.:19:55.

you feel comfortable backing an elitist, anti-democratic project

:19:56.:19:58.

where supreme power is wielded by people immune to the ballot box,

:19:59.:20:02.

where we pay more to wealthy French farmers than poor African farmers,

:20:03.:20:06.

and where we have inflicted joblessness and misery on tens of

:20:07.:20:09.

millions of people around the Mediterranean while Eurocrats like

:20:10.:20:13.

around in private jets? Does that seem comfortable as a person on the

:20:14.:20:18.

centre-left? I feel comfortable because I feel the EU has been a

:20:19.:20:22.

force for good in terms of employment protection, in a way a

:20:23.:20:25.

Conservative governments never has, comfortable because we elect our

:20:26.:20:29.

MEPs, and we elect a government that sends ministers to Brussels to have

:20:30.:20:33.

the final say on European regulations, and I feel comfortable

:20:34.:20:37.

as a British MP that over the vast majority of policy areas, whether

:20:38.:20:42.

health, housing, education, policing, we have confidence in

:20:43.:20:47.

those areas. So Lord Rose, the leader of the remainder campaign

:20:48.:20:51.

says Vote Leave for higher wages, Paddy Ashdown says we will get

:20:52.:20:55.

cheaper food, don't you think there are benefits to the majority of low

:20:56.:21:00.

and medium income people from having that boosting household income? On

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the contrary. So they are wrong? I think they are wrong, people in my

:21:06.:21:09.

constituency, low and middle incomes, they will suffer the most

:21:10.:21:17.

if manufacturing is eliminated, according to the Brexit Economist,

:21:18.:21:21.

the Bank of England governor has predicted a recession, and it will

:21:22.:21:24.

be people I reserve present who will be worse after macro, not people

:21:25.:21:30.

earning high income jobs. -- worse off. What is the strongest argument

:21:31.:21:36.

for voting Leave? I don't think there is one. None at all? This is

:21:37.:21:40.

one of the things that puzzles a lot of people trying to make up their

:21:41.:21:46.

mind. You do not think there are any benefits of staying in the EU. It is

:21:47.:21:51.

not my job to tell you them, but I can see them! People make an issue

:21:52.:21:54.

out of being so broad-minded and reasonable, but they struggle to see

:21:55.:21:58.

the other point of view at all. They cannot put themselves in the shoes

:21:59.:22:03.

of the people that the EU is not benefiting, which is the vast

:22:04.:22:06.

majority. There is a lot of scaremongering on your side about

:22:07.:22:09.

what might happen, because if we stay in, we will pretty much have

:22:10.:22:14.

the status quo, access to a market where we trade more than with the

:22:15.:22:18.

rest of the world, 44% of our exports go to the rest of the EU.

:22:19.:22:26.

Our trade unions represent four million people who think we should

:22:27.:22:30.

stay. I would rather this on to them than you. Do you think the European

:22:31.:22:34.

Union is a growing, successful scheme that people would join today

:22:35.:22:39.

if we were not already a member? Yes no? Yes. We ended there, I thank you

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both for that. So, this week both sides of this

:22:45.:22:46.

referendum have really The big set-piece TV

:22:47.:22:49.

grillings have begun. Senior Conservatives have been

:22:50.:22:52.

knocking lumps out of each other. And the Labour machine seems finally

:22:53.:22:54.

to have creaked into life. We'll be talking about

:22:55.:22:57.

all of that today. But, first, our Adam's been

:22:58.:22:59.

on the buses to see where this

:23:00.:23:01.

campaign is heading. There's livestock,

:23:02.:23:02.

there's Boris Johnson, and there's a man

:23:03.:23:04.

with a stuffed animal. Well, I suppose I could have

:23:05.:23:08.

accidentally bought the cow This was the week the referendum

:23:09.:23:12.

started to feel a bit more like a general election

:23:13.:23:21.

campaign, and not just because of

:23:22.:23:23.

the photo op. Vote Leave unveiled

:23:24.:23:25.

a spending commitment, cutting the VAT on domestic fuel,

:23:26.:23:26.

and a whole new immigration system - And here Boris told farmers

:23:27.:23:29.

that their subsidies would be safe, even if the UK left the EU -

:23:30.:23:35.

not everyone was convinced. There's no authority, no power,

:23:36.:23:39.

he's just a person that's walked in here

:23:40.:23:46.

and said what he's got to say. You could say it, I could

:23:47.:23:49.

say it, I can promise. First of all,

:23:50.:23:53.

where are your wellies? Are you getting a bit

:23:54.:23:58.

of grief from the farmers? No, there's a lot of

:23:59.:24:02.

support, a lot of support, and a lot of people

:24:03.:24:05.

coming up to me and saying, "We are with you,

:24:06.:24:08.

we want to come out." Some people, obviously, need

:24:09.:24:11.

reassurance about the subsidies, He left - without offering me

:24:12.:24:15.

a lift, so I caught the train, to Birmingham,

:24:16.:24:20.

and the Labour in campaign. But this week Jeremy Corbyn

:24:21.:24:23.

made a big speech after it emerged many Labour supporters didn't know

:24:24.:24:30.

the party was in favour of the EU. Do you think that was

:24:31.:24:34.

a great speech from JC? Jeremy's journey, if you like,

:24:35.:24:36.

which mirrors the journeys that many have made on this,

:24:37.:24:42.

he was a Eurosceptic in '75, and I think he's more powerful

:24:43.:24:48.

for that. Our journey took us to a building

:24:49.:24:54.

site to see investment from abroad that the Remain campaign claim

:24:55.:24:57.

is linked to our EU membership. Of course, with foreign

:24:58.:25:00.

money comes foreigners. How are you going to vote?

:25:01.:25:04.

No, come out. Why's that? Because of all the immigrants

:25:05.:25:08.

and things like that. Too many of them now

:25:09.:25:12.

coming into this country. Well, inevitably,

:25:13.:25:15.

I've ended up in one of these This week, the Remain campaign

:25:16.:25:17.

got some high visibility backing from foreign leaders -

:25:18.:25:21.

in Spain, the Netherlands, the former Foreign Secretary

:25:22.:25:24.

David Miliband. Some people might say

:25:25.:25:31.

that you live in America now, you are one of these high-profile

:25:32.:25:34.

foreigners coming over and lecturing us on what to do,

:25:35.:25:38.

what do you say to that? I'm a British voter,

:25:39.:25:41.

and I'm able to speak with passion about my own country,

:25:42.:25:44.

this is my home country, and although it's not where I live

:25:45.:25:46.

and work at the moment, I still feel that there is

:25:47.:25:49.

a real obligation to speak not just to the economic issues

:25:50.:25:51.

and the security issues, but also the foreign-policy

:25:52.:25:54.

issues, frankly. to ride on Britain Stronger

:25:55.:25:55.

in Europe's luxury coach, or hop onto Nigel Farage's

:25:56.:25:59.

double-decker. You wait ages for a referendum

:26:00.:26:02.

battle bus to come along, So, you heard Alan Johnson there

:26:03.:26:05.

defending Jeremy Corbyn's latest intervention in the referendum

:26:06.:26:12.

campaign, despite critics claiming that Labour hasn't exactly been

:26:13.:26:14.

full-throated in its campaign Well, the former Deputy Prime

:26:15.:26:17.

Minister and veteran Labour campaigner John Prescott

:26:18.:26:23.

seems to agree. He says in his newspaper column

:26:24.:26:26.

today that his party's message

:26:27.:26:28.

hasn't been getting through. John Prescott, good morning to you.

:26:29.:26:42.

Good morning. You say in your column that the Conservatives have hijacked

:26:43.:26:46.

the campaign, why has Labour allowed that to happen? It is a good point,

:26:47.:26:51.

I suggested in the paper that it seems almost to have been the

:26:52.:26:55.

strategy, blue on blue destroying the Tory party, hopefully, we will

:26:56.:26:59.

have to wait and see! We saw that in the broadcasts this morning, but

:27:00.:27:03.

where is Labour? It seems as if we are just enjoying the fight between

:27:04.:27:07.

them, but that is not putting our position. Labour maybe in the

:27:08.:27:13.

European Union, I support being in it, but we're not putting the

:27:14.:27:18.

arguments, and so when you see on a bus there, for example, on Boris's

:27:19.:27:23.

bus, ?350 million a week to put into the health service, this is from a

:27:24.:27:27.

government that reduced from 9% of GDP the average in Europe to 7%, and

:27:28.:27:33.

when they go on with a Labour politician in this way, Gisela, the

:27:34.:27:40.

Tories get the publicity, and they are in the background. We are not

:27:41.:27:43.

putting down the record of the Tories, they cannot do it because

:27:44.:27:47.

they are in a joint agreement on a bus about Europe. Let me just get

:27:48.:27:52.

another question in, as a result of everything you say, are you worried

:27:53.:27:57.

that you are failing to galvanise the Labour vote, do get it out to

:27:58.:28:03.

vote for Remain on the 23rd? Absolutely! Labour people want to

:28:04.:28:07.

hear Labour people talking about this government's record, whether

:28:08.:28:10.

they are four in or out, they carried out a record that is

:28:11.:28:14.

basically destroying our health service, housing was halved in

:28:15.:28:23.

billions, and now they say they will bring it. Michael Gove says all

:28:24.:28:25.

these terrible bankers, why didn't the vote with Labour to stop the

:28:26.:28:29.

bonuses for them? He didn't, he doesn't, they are hypocritical, we

:28:30.:28:32.

must show that Labour has strong values, we believe in social

:28:33.:28:36.

justice. When you have heard Tories talking about being social justice?!

:28:37.:28:44.

Look Labour, at Labour. Maybe Labour voters are confused, when you look

:28:45.:28:49.

at Jeremy Corbyn's pro EU speech, he spent as much time attacking the

:28:50.:28:54.

Tories and EU policies. Good on Jeremy! By Sea said the bad things

:28:55.:28:59.

predicted by Vote Leave work addicted by those who say we should

:29:00.:29:04.

remain, that all the scare stories were just myth-making and prophecies

:29:05.:29:09.

of doom. Is it any surprise that Labour voters are confused? Yes, but

:29:10.:29:13.

I do not think we should talk too much about what we should do, Jeremy

:29:14.:29:19.

is not a passionate man, he does not scream and shout like me, does he?!

:29:20.:29:24.

But to that extent, our people want to see, and this is what has

:29:25.:29:28.

happened to politics, people speak and do believe what they are saying!

:29:29.:29:34.

On both sides, Cameron's side, Boris Johnson, they are saying things that

:29:35.:29:38.

they did not do in government, which Labour oppose, and they are against

:29:39.:29:44.

social justice. We want a Labour Europe, different to them, not, we

:29:45.:29:49.

all believe in Europe, let's travel on the same bus! No wonder people

:29:50.:29:54.

are confused, get a strong Labour voice, and glad Jeremy said what he

:29:55.:29:57.

said, but point out what these beggars did in government!

:29:58.:30:02.

What about the confusion, even Damian McBride caught on Twitter

:30:03.:30:12.

offering policy tips to the Brexit campaign.

:30:13.:30:12.

Labour voters seem to be confused. I don't say that the Europe they

:30:13.:30:41.

want is the one I want. I took part in the last referendum. Despite the

:30:42.:30:45.

Tories not giving us a referendum and taking us in 1975 into the

:30:46.:30:52.

common market. I do believe, I was against a political Europe. In fact,

:30:53.:30:56.

I turned down a job with Jim Callaghan to be commissioner. On

:30:57.:31:00.

that ground, I thought that is where they were heading.

:31:01.:31:04.

I can't say it has stopped. What we argued then was for a wider Europe

:31:05.:31:13.

so we didn't move along the federal Europe case. That is still an

:31:14.:31:15.

argument to be fought for, I feel strongly, Labour does. I'm not sure

:31:16.:31:17.

the Tories pursued it. Sadiq Khan, tested Jarrell, Harriet

:31:18.:31:23.

Harman, they have appeared with Tories, including the Prime

:31:24.:31:27.

Minister. You refused, but last night you were appearing on Russia

:31:28.:31:35.

Today, a Putin propaganda channel, with Ken Livingstone, he has been

:31:36.:31:38.

suspended from your party, have you thought this through?

:31:39.:31:46.

Of course. I don't go in joint party operations, I never have. I didn't

:31:47.:31:51.

when I fought the Labour in 1975. I am the same. I am not saying they

:31:52.:31:55.

can't or shouldn't. We are saying the Labour vote is crucial and there

:31:56.:32:00.

is confusion as to the Labour position.

:32:01.:32:04.

Standing alongside Tory politicians, the survey has recently shown most

:32:05.:32:09.

of the speeches that come out of that are Tory spokesmen. 48% Tory,

:32:10.:32:16.

8% Labour. Why are we confused? Like in Scotland, if you appear alongside

:32:17.:32:27.

them bring on Europe, you better start telling people what you

:32:28.:32:29.

disagree about. Jeremy is trying to do that. I

:32:30.:32:31.

wouldn't do it, it adds to the confusion. If you can't get the

:32:32.:32:34.

Labour vote out in big numbers, are you worried you could lose this

:32:35.:32:36.

referendum? Yes. I want every Labour person in

:32:37.:32:41.

to vote. I fought on the last one thinking we would win on the

:32:42.:32:46.

referendum, and we lost, mainly it was particularly women, they get

:32:47.:32:50.

concerned about the long-term, their children, security, I think that is

:32:51.:32:56.

what defeated as in 1975. Seriously, I think it will go the other way. We

:32:57.:33:05.

need to be talking about the big powers. It is not Britain on its

:33:06.:33:11.

own, it is global powers, America, India, China, who will decide the

:33:12.:33:15.

issue about crime, immigration, security. We will be a little island

:33:16.:33:21.

shouting out, don't you recognise we are a big power. But we will have no

:33:22.:33:26.

say in a global decision. Jeremy Corbyn has hinted he might

:33:27.:33:31.

bring Ed Miliband into the Shadow Cabinet. What about you, are you

:33:32.:33:35.

available? I have done my bit for the Labour

:33:36.:33:40.

Party, except shouting on the side as I do. That is his decision. I

:33:41.:33:45.

want to see a united party. One of the things is people are confused

:33:46.:33:53.

because of these changes. Where does Labour stand? Start talking about it

:33:54.:34:01.

and be clearer on immigration. We have been cowards, the whole

:34:02.:34:04.

political establishment has avoided the argument. That is a global

:34:05.:34:12.

solution. There will be more migration coming from African

:34:13.:34:17.

countries which have no water or food because of climate change. This

:34:18.:34:21.

is not a temporary problem but a global problem and needs a global

:34:22.:34:25.

solution and not a little country on the side shouting and staying out of

:34:26.:34:29.

it. Thank you.

:34:30.:34:31.

Now, even if plenty folks are still undecided,

:34:32.:34:33.

you might think most Mps will have made their mind up as to how they'll

:34:34.:34:36.

It's only two-and-a-half weeks to go, after all.

:34:37.:34:39.

But, according to our research, there at still 26 undecided Tory

:34:40.:34:42.

Well, we're going to reduce that number by one today,

:34:43.:34:46.

as the Conservative MP Johnny Mercer is here to reveal for the first time

:34:47.:34:49.

What is your decision? The first thing to say is, like a lot of

:34:50.:35:03.

people, being out on the doors of Plymouth, we are disappointed by the

:35:04.:35:07.

level of debate. Even today.

:35:08.:35:10.

What is your decision? It is important to get this across.

:35:11.:35:17.

But tell me, leave or remain? Two Government ministers saying the

:35:18.:35:19.

Government is not telling the truth about the economy which has upset

:35:20.:35:23.

people. In terms of this referendum, it is

:35:24.:35:30.

clear we should remain, not a single economic expert has come out and

:35:31.:35:34.

said this will do things for our economy, our jobs.

:35:35.:35:37.

If you look at what this garment has delivered in places like Plymouth

:35:38.:35:41.

around jobs, the single biggest factor in improving people's life

:35:42.:35:46.

chances, it has done good things. It is the economic case.

:35:47.:35:50.

And a security case. Why do the people of Plymouth seem not

:35:51.:35:55.

convinced quite a recent polls say they were largely for Leave.

:35:56.:35:58.

A poll I have been running has come out and said that.

:35:59.:36:02.

When this debate started, I said this was an issue, not the issue. It

:36:03.:36:08.

has become clear. I did not think we would vote to leave the EU. This is

:36:09.:36:14.

a vote of singular importance to this country. People have begun to

:36:15.:36:19.

forget we need to get on with Government on June 24.

:36:20.:36:22.

That may be the case. But do you think you can win on the economic

:36:23.:36:30.

arguments? With the economic arguments, there are single clear

:36:31.:36:32.

points. On the economy, the people who

:36:33.:36:39.

always feel the worst affected, it is always the most vulnerable.

:36:40.:36:44.

Always those who file like a desperate struggle. My area of

:36:45.:36:48.

Plymouth is still categorised by the EU as a deprived area in parts. They

:36:49.:36:53.

cannot take that shock. It is OK for others to say we can go to this

:36:54.:36:58.

nirvana. The truth is the same people are affected.

:36:59.:37:02.

Why do 74% in your constituency say...

:37:03.:37:06.

That is a very small poll. But it is indicative of the mood,

:37:07.:37:11.

74%. People will feel more passionate

:37:12.:37:14.

about leaving because for some people this is a single issue. They

:37:15.:37:18.

have been looking for a reason to come out and leave the EU. I think

:37:19.:37:22.

the vast majority do not want to leave. You are looking at where we

:37:23.:37:29.

are now it is not perfect. We are on this trajectory. Do we throw it away

:37:30.:37:34.

for a nirvana no one can quite lay their hands on. Could the most

:37:35.:37:40.

vulnerable in the UK who rely on a job, on the NHS, public service

:37:41.:37:43.

funding, could they withstand that shock? I can look them in the eye

:37:44.:37:48.

and say, I went this based on something that sounded like a great

:37:49.:37:52.

idea but I could not go for it. It has loads of problems.

:37:53.:37:57.

Why take so long? Thinking about Europe is not something I got into

:37:58.:38:00.

politics today about. I have spoken to a lot of people. It

:38:01.:38:06.

would be naive to suggest there are reasons why people want to leave. On

:38:07.:38:11.

balance, it is a clear case. Society is judged by how it looks after its

:38:12.:38:16.

vulnerable. We have to remain part of the EU to continue to do that. It

:38:17.:38:22.

isn't perfect. Thank you for coming on and telling

:38:23.:38:24.

us how you will vote on June 23. We say goodbye to viewers

:38:25.:38:26.

in Scotland who leave us now Good morning and welcome

:38:27.:38:36.

to Sunday Politics Scotland. the Western Isles voted no

:38:37.:38:37.

in the referendum on the EEC. As we approach the next vote

:38:38.:38:47.

on Europe, we've been back to find Former Labour leaders

:38:48.:38:50.

urge members to turn out We'll be asking John Edward,

:38:51.:39:00.

spokesperson for Scotland After the tragic death of Liam Fee -

:39:01.:39:05.

the children's commissioner says questions about

:39:06.:39:09.

the Named Persons Act But is there a genuine public

:39:10.:39:10.

interest at stake? When the UK last held

:39:11.:39:19.

a referendum on Europe - 41 years ago today -

:39:20.:39:21.

the Western Isles was one of only two regions to reject continued

:39:22.:39:24.

membership of what was then In other words, the Western Isles

:39:25.:39:28.

have never formally endorsed So what will they do

:39:29.:39:33.

on June the 23rd - Our political correspondent,

:39:34.:39:38.

Glenn Campbell, has been travelling Remote and rugged. These islands are

:39:39.:39:59.

on the very edge of the European Union. The Western Isles are a world

:40:00.:40:04.

away from the governments in Edinburgh and London, never mind the

:40:05.:40:09.

bureaucracy in Brussels. Here on the Atlantic coast, its next stop

:40:10.:40:17.

America. But that is not to see EU membership doesn't matter year. It

:40:18.:40:23.

really does. Traditional island industries like Harris to read,

:40:24.:40:29.

export worldwide, including too many countries across the EU. And at this

:40:30.:40:37.

mill they worry that a vote to leave could disrupt the single market. We

:40:38.:40:42.

have concerns about it. It is easy for us to trade with Europe and any

:40:43.:40:46.

constrictions are issues that might affect that is a concern for us as

:40:47.:40:52.

business and major employer in the Hebrides. How do you hope the vote

:40:53.:40:57.

business and major employer in the will go? We hope the vote will go

:40:58.:41:01.

over staying in Europe and staying in terms of what we have in terms of

:41:02.:41:08.

trade and the ability to trade with our partners neighbours in Europe.

:41:09.:41:11.

Phishing also depends on free trade across the EU, selling much of its

:41:12.:41:20.

catch to France and Spain. But in this harbour the fleet is smaller

:41:21.:41:23.

than it once was and to many here blame the EU's Common fisheries

:41:24.:41:27.

policy. This processor wants local fishermen freed from EU rules on

:41:28.:41:30.

when and where they can finish, what they can catch and what can be

:41:31.:41:35.

brought ashore. I think it would be better because the boats here would

:41:36.:41:43.

be allowed to land what the catch, as sensible phishing, rather than

:41:44.:41:49.

this EU regulation. There are people in Europe who do not know where we

:41:50.:41:54.

are, don't understand phishing, the same way we do not understand the

:41:55.:41:59.

phishing in the Mediterranean. How frustrating is that? Very

:42:00.:42:04.

frustrating when you see boats catching by catch and they have to

:42:05.:42:07.

dump it. You are on the key and you have to go to Peterhead to buy

:42:08.:42:12.

phishing get back to the islands. It does not add up but we have to do

:42:13.:42:19.

it. Euro scepticism is nothing new on these islands. It is almost a

:42:20.:42:25.

tradition. In the last referendum in 1975, Shetland and the Western Isles

:42:26.:42:33.

were the only two parts of the UK to say no to continued membership of

:42:34.:42:35.

what was then the European economic community. The vote here were 70 -

:42:36.:42:42.

30 against, so this is one of only two places in the country never to

:42:43.:42:47.

have endorsed the idea of European integration. While some things have

:42:48.:42:56.

hardly changed in the Hebrides, in the 41 years since that Fort, a

:42:57.:43:01.

great deal has moved on. You would struggle to find anywhere in the UK

:43:02.:43:07.

that has benefited more from EU investment than transport

:43:08.:43:10.

infrastructure. That is where much of the money to build the bridge

:43:11.:43:14.

connecting the island of Scalby to Harris came from. Even yet even in

:43:15.:43:21.

this tiny community, unease with the European Union is not hard to find.

:43:22.:43:28.

It is so alien to me. Things happening in Brussels. A whole lot

:43:29.:43:36.

of people in Germany and France and these sorts of placing deciding what

:43:37.:43:40.

is good to happen here. Is there a feeling in the Western Isles that

:43:41.:43:46.

people here do not like being told what to do by people from beyond the

:43:47.:43:52.

Western Isles? I think that is right. I think people don't

:43:53.:43:58.

generally. Independent mindedness is part of the character here. For folk

:43:59.:44:04.

-- Kumble says of the EU debate. Travelling through the islands,

:44:05.:44:09.

there is hard-headed calculation to. At the boat yard, this young man who

:44:10.:44:13.

makes his living from both fishing and crofting is weighing up what is

:44:14.:44:21.

best for him. I am torn on that at the moment. I have seen on social

:44:22.:44:26.

media fishermen like myself I was planning on voting out. But I come

:44:27.:44:31.

from a crofting heritage. You get a lot of EU subsidies which we might

:44:32.:44:35.

be losing out on. You cannot do that without getting your subsidies, how

:44:36.:44:40.

little or how big, they do help people. If this vote was tomorrow

:44:41.:44:44.

and you had to make up your mind, which we would you go? I would vote

:44:45.:44:49.

to stay in the European Union. The safer option, really. We have heard

:44:50.:44:56.

a lot on our travels down through the Western Isles about the roads,

:44:57.:45:02.

bridges, peers that have been built partly through European Union

:45:03.:45:06.

funding, that have made these islands so much more accessible and

:45:07.:45:11.

perhaps there is no better example than this, the Causeway, linking

:45:12.:45:15.

South Uist with the island of men escape. -- Eriskay. Investment will

:45:16.:45:27.

be harder to come by in future because it means the Highlands and

:45:28.:45:31.

Islands are competing for cash with more disadvantaged regions in

:45:32.:45:38.

Eastern Europe. On the Isle of Barra, this crofter and oyster

:45:39.:45:42.

Farmer believes the benefits of being in the EU, including subsidies

:45:43.:45:47.

under the Common agricultural caps that right policy cap, will I weigh

:45:48.:45:52.

any disadvantages. There is a lot more to be said of being in the EU

:45:53.:45:58.

than being out. In what way, the crofting side of me says, that is

:45:59.:46:03.

the cap, the benefits that come through that to be in -- me and the

:46:04.:46:10.

broader community. And the Oyster farming point of view which is more

:46:11.:46:18.

important, is a huge market, France, 200,000 oysters a year. It is

:46:19.:46:22.

important we have access to that market. The other side of is that

:46:23.:46:28.

there is a lot of benefit that comes to argument to through rural

:46:29.:46:31.

development which comes through EU funding. It is better for us because

:46:32.:46:36.

it comes back through there. This factory is the largest employer on

:46:37.:46:41.

this island and even though even -- much of the langoustine and scallops

:46:42.:46:46.

are sold to other EU countries, bosses here would prefer the UK to

:46:47.:46:54.

leave the union. From the fishermen's perspective, about. Why?

:46:55.:46:58.

They are not listening to the fisher men and what their needs are. There

:46:59.:47:03.

is someone in Brussels making decisions which impact on this

:47:04.:47:06.

fragile livelihood on this island and the islands around. They are

:47:07.:47:12.

confident new trading arrangements will be agreed without damage to

:47:13.:47:17.

their business. With the European market, what is stopping us selling

:47:18.:47:22.

to Europe? Who is going to say you cannot buy it? If a company in Spain

:47:23.:47:26.

says we can buy your product and would like to, who says we cannot

:47:27.:47:31.

sell that anyway? Why should we be governed by Europe dictating when it

:47:32.:47:35.

goes, how it goes. Whichever way the vote goes, it is clear as these

:47:36.:47:42.

Atlantic waters that the decision to stay in or to leave really matters

:47:43.:47:47.

here. The outcome will make a material difference to the way of

:47:48.:47:52.

life in this room or region of the EU, just as is it dead after the

:47:53.:47:57.

last referendum for decades ago. -- it did.

:47:58.:47:59.

Joining me now is John Edward, who is campaign spokesperson

:48:00.:48:01.

John Edward, if I am a supporter of Independence for Scotland, as many

:48:02.:48:14.

people are, almost half the population, and I want a second EU

:48:15.:48:20.

Referendum Bill Nicola Sturgeon intermittently and Alex Salmond

:48:21.:48:23.

incessantly telling you that if Scotland votes to Remain, but the UK

:48:24.:48:33.

votes to leave, surely I am dying for Britain to leave? I am not here

:48:34.:48:41.

to and search any political party. If you encourage Scottish people to

:48:42.:48:49.

leave with a vote of a second kind at some point, means we leave. If I

:48:50.:48:52.

am a supporter of independence, I might think Remain might win anyway.

:48:53.:48:57.

I might vote for relief because I want Britain to leave and I want

:48:58.:49:06.

Scotland to see. I want to help the grand total of leave. I do not want

:49:07.:49:11.

anyone to think that we will vote to leave anyway. Scotland has a big

:49:12.:49:14.

influence in the sport. The figures are close enough to tell us but

:49:15.:49:20.

Scotland votes Remain, that will make a significant impact to the

:49:21.:49:26.

vote. I asked you people who are saying I am not bothered. I want a

:49:27.:49:32.

second independence referendum. The vest vote from me is that Scotland

:49:33.:49:36.

votes to stay. There is no other question until June the 23rd. The

:49:37.:49:43.

only way you will get past it and get into a situation where Scotland

:49:44.:49:47.

is in a different case, is if you vote remain. During the first

:49:48.:49:52.

independence referendum, everyone from the president from the European

:49:53.:49:56.

Commission downwards said that Scotland would not be, an

:49:57.:50:03.

independent Scotland would not automatically be admitted into the

:50:04.:50:08.

EU. Some of the Nordic leaders said they do not want Scotland to become

:50:09.:50:11.

independent. Why should I want to vote for that lot? You are voting

:50:12.:50:14.

for the United Kingdom to stay as part of this voting block. What we

:50:15.:50:25.

have got to remember is that it is our voice in Europe that is

:50:26.:50:32.

involved. The vast majority of all trading partners within the EU and

:50:33.:50:34.

whether it would like us to stay part of the system, that seems to be

:50:35.:50:39.

a consensus that is building by the day. Is there a democratic deficit

:50:40.:50:45.

in the UK? There is to a certain extent because there is a perceived

:50:46.:50:50.

democratic deficits. If people do not think it is closer, then that is

:50:51.:50:58.

a deficit. No law, and that is something I have had to tackle

:50:59.:51:02.

across Holland, no law can be passed without your elected, British

:51:03.:51:05.

elected minister and UK elected MEPs passing it. In terms of democracy,

:51:06.:51:18.

bills are drafted, bills are put out to public consultation, they go

:51:19.:51:19.

through Parliamentary committees. After the last European elections,

:51:20.:51:30.

it was said that in fact we had been voting on whether John Claude Yunker

:51:31.:51:35.

or his opponent should become president of the European

:51:36.:51:41.

Commission. Can you just remind us of which party won that election?

:51:42.:51:47.

There is not one political party. There are 303 political parties. The

:51:48.:51:53.

centre-right party won, but that is as narrow definition as it gets. Not

:51:54.:52:01.

many Scottish people care about that and that is my point. If people

:52:02.:52:04.

many Scottish people care about that perceive it to be far-away... We

:52:05.:52:09.

were told boss to mislead, as it were that we were voting for her

:52:10.:52:15.

president of the European Commission and John Claude Yunker became

:52:16.:52:22.

president... The member states said we will respect the majority vote in

:52:23.:52:29.

the European union elections in terms of appointing a president and

:52:30.:52:38.

they took that and that is why he became president. I am sure some

:52:39.:52:46.

people in Scotland followed the events of Mr Yunker as things carry

:52:47.:52:58.

but... He is only a head of civil service. He is not a president or a

:52:59.:53:05.

Prime Minister. Let's not told European Parliament to a stronger

:53:06.:53:11.

standing. But it is not just in Britain. No one identifies with the

:53:12.:53:15.

European Union as a democratic entity. Surely much better to go

:53:16.:53:17.

back to having the British Parliament and Scottish Parliament

:53:18.:53:24.

as our democracy? They are our sovereign bodies and will always be.

:53:25.:53:27.

The European Union is not and never will be. It is an entirely different

:53:28.:53:31.

system in world politics, I will admit, but we have political control

:53:32.:53:35.

United Nations. Have decided to save United Nations. Have decided to save

:53:36.:53:40.

-- share our power into it to get the best out of it. Let's take an

:53:41.:53:45.

example. You make the point, correctly, that the commission can

:53:46.:53:48.

initiate legislation but it has to be approved by member states. Take

:53:49.:53:53.

the working Time directive. I know a lot of people in Scotland would be

:53:54.:53:56.

in favour of this because they think it gives them protection but whether

:53:57.:54:02.

you are in favour of it or not, it was passed despite the protest of

:54:03.:54:08.

British government, the European Commission then said it was health

:54:09.:54:15.

and safety legislation, meaning that the European Court of Justice could

:54:16.:54:18.

impose it on Britain, even though the elected government of Britain at

:54:19.:54:21.

that time did not want anything to do with it. In what even tortured

:54:22.:54:26.

European sense cannot be said to be democratic? Two things. One, the

:54:27.:54:32.

European Court of justice can only act when it's given me the -- given

:54:33.:54:45.

the possibility of doing so. Take, you can opt out of the working Time

:54:46.:54:48.

directive and I know that because I did sign one a view months ago. But

:54:49.:54:54.

that is an individual opt out. This was about opting out of the whole

:54:55.:55:02.

thing and it was imposed upon us. It was not imposed. It was challenged

:55:03.:55:04.

in court just as the Scottish whiskey industry challenged in

:55:05.:55:12.

court. This was opposed by British government and yet it became law.

:55:13.:55:16.

Nonetheless, individuals can opt out as I have. That is not the point. We

:55:17.:55:23.

could not opt out as a country. It went through the procedures of

:55:24.:55:26.

Parliamentary scrutiny, two sets of votes. It is exactly as laws go

:55:27.:55:31.

through Holyrood and Parliament. Not everyone agrees with those evil but

:55:32.:55:40.

to suggest that they have total power, it can only act when we allow

:55:41.:55:51.

them to. We can still opt out. You are an individual -- you are

:55:52.:55:56.

An opt out if they opt out will stop An opt out if they opt out will stop

:55:57.:56:05.

-- an opt out is an opt out. Let's leave it there. Politicians have

:56:06.:56:09.

said for a long time, we will not leave it there. Politicians have

:56:10.:56:13.

have anything to do with Schengen, with the new refugees act, when it

:56:14.:56:21.

comes to a referendum and they say, you know this thing we've been

:56:22.:56:24.

standing up to four decades is terrific and we want you to vote for

:56:25.:56:30.

it, don't they have a problem? Absolutely and it has been a

:56:31.:56:33.

perennial problem and that is why leave is able to go out and say

:56:34.:56:36.

things about migration and the NHS which simply bear no relation to

:56:37.:56:40.

reality because we, the country which have signed the treaty is, we

:56:41.:56:44.

the one with the sovereign power in the EU, have refused to make the

:56:45.:56:49.

case to our people as to why we are in their in the first place. That is

:56:50.:56:53.

a problem we have to overcome. I have spent as much time over the

:56:54.:56:58.

last four months explaining what the European union doesn't do as saying

:56:59.:57:01.

what it does do. We have to believe that it has powers that are way

:57:02.:57:07.

beyond what it actually has... British governments have not helped

:57:08.:57:08.

you? No, but you will find other British governments have not helped

:57:09.:57:17.

European country's government explaining the same thing. It is not

:57:18.:57:23.

Brussels. Brussels is 28 member states and the power is within

:57:24.:57:27.

those, not in Brussels. Had he been helped with some of the rhetoric by

:57:28.:57:33.

the remaining side? -- have you been helped? You would think the world

:57:34.:57:42.

was going to end if we left the European Union. It is perfectly

:57:43.:57:46.

feasible for an independent Britain to negotiate traders with other

:57:47.:57:50.

European countries. It would not be catastrophic. You could argue that

:57:51.:57:54.

it may be stronger one way or the other but the alarmist rhetoric is

:57:55.:57:58.

out of control, isn't it? I think the scale of it and expecting people

:57:59.:58:03.

to judge whether an enormous figure from the IMF is one thing but we are

:58:04.:58:10.

making a case on what we know to be true. We know there are risks in

:58:11.:58:17.

leaving. The other side are making cases based on we don't know what.

:58:18.:58:21.

There is no white Paper. We still have a veto over things in Europe

:58:22.:58:27.

and discovering pots of money like bumblebees go round flowers is...

:58:28.:58:35.

There is a reasonable economic case to say Britain could do well. I have

:58:36.:58:42.

never said there is not some case but I genuinely believe we have

:58:43.:58:46.

become healthier, wealthier, better educated as being part of the

:58:47.:58:51.

European Union and we would be crazy to get rid of that. We will have

:58:52.:58:54.

European Union and we would be crazy leave it there. Thank you.

:58:55.:58:56.

The government's flagship Named Persons policy came under

:58:57.:58:58.

fire again this week, following the conviction of Rachel

:58:59.:59:00.

and Nyomi Fee for the murder of Rachel's two-year-old son Liam.

:59:01.:59:03.

He was killed at the family's home in Fife, one of the areas

:59:04.:59:06.

in Scotland which is piloting a similar initiative.

:59:07.:59:08.

A serious case review has been announced to look into the exact

:59:09.:59:11.

circumstances surrounding the toddler's death,

:59:12.:59:12.

but questions about whether he had a single-point-of-contact worker

:59:13.:59:14.

have been met with accusations of political posturing.

:59:15.:59:18.

A short while ago, I spoke to the Children's Commissioner

:59:19.:59:20.

Tam Baillie, who has written to a newspaper about this issue.

:59:21.:59:28.

The Liam Fee case, obviously a very tragic case. You wrote an article in

:59:29.:59:37.

the Sunday Times about it today. The third sentence of that article says,

:59:38.:59:45.

Liam's death has been used by some as the furthering a campaign about

:59:46.:59:51.

the Named Persons Act and it is unforgivable because the tragic loss

:59:52.:59:54.

of a child should be above the political posturing. What do you

:59:55.:59:59.

mean? There are two reasons. First of all, Liam Fee's death is an

:00:00.:00:04.

absolute tragedy and it affects the individuals involved, the

:00:05.:00:07.

communities and, indeed, the whole workforce that is involved in that.

:00:08.:00:14.

The sad fact is, no child protection services in the world can offer

:00:15.:00:17.

The sad fact is, no child protection assurances that it will be

:00:18.:00:21.

fail-safe. That is the first thing. This is a real tragedy. The second

:00:22.:00:31.

thing is the Named Persons Act service and that is a low-level,

:00:32.:00:36.

early warning system for when things are at an early stage of going wrong

:00:37.:00:40.

in a child's life and I can't contact up -- comment on the details

:00:41.:00:45.

of the Liam Fee's case but we do know this was a Charlton known to

:00:46.:00:50.

social workers. That puts that incident way beyond normal case... I

:00:51.:00:58.

do take your point but what about the facts of this case? Fife was a

:00:59.:01:04.

pilot area for the scheme, wasn't it? Regardless of whether Liam Fee

:01:05.:01:12.

had a named person or not, I would say this was a child who was in a

:01:13.:01:18.

system where it was obvious to people that he was way beyond that

:01:19.:01:23.

early warning, early intervention. I get the point, but why don't you

:01:24.:01:26.

know? I can't comment on the details get the point, but why don't you

:01:27.:01:35.

of the case. You could have contacted Fife Council and asked

:01:36.:01:38.

what the arrangements were in place? It was not my job to look into that.

:01:39.:01:45.

There is a significant case review and I said in the article, we have

:01:46.:01:49.

to leave the people in the significant case review to look at

:01:50.:01:52.

the totality of actions taken to identify where the errors were made

:01:53.:01:59.

in terms of the case. Don't you think before you wrote an article in

:02:00.:02:03.

a national newspaper saying people were indulging in political

:02:04.:02:08.

posturing and that their behaviour was unforgivable, as the Children's

:02:09.:02:11.

Commissioner for Scotland, it might have been a good idea for you to

:02:12.:02:15.

contact Fife Council and the Scottish Government and ascertain

:02:16.:02:19.

the facts of the case? Even if there is a named person for Liam Fee, that

:02:20.:02:26.

really is not the point in terms of that child being known to social

:02:27.:02:30.

workers. That means they should have been systems in place to ensure the

:02:31.:02:36.

safety of that child rather than the named person. I understand that.

:02:37.:02:42.

John Sweeney the other day said there was a person, a point of

:02:43.:02:48.

contact, but not in terms of the legislation. That is what he said.

:02:49.:02:55.

Do you know what that means? I presume that he is saying there was

:02:56.:02:58.

a person who was a point of contact somewhere with regard to the

:02:59.:03:01.

handling of the child protection case. I can't comment on whether or

:03:02.:03:09.

not... Again, I would put it to you, many people watching this would say,

:03:10.:03:14.

hang on a minute. This guy is the Children's Commissioner for

:03:15.:03:17.

Scotland. He is writing articles in national newspapers condemning

:03:18.:03:21.

people for asking questions apropos of this case about the Named Persons

:03:22.:03:25.

Act and he hasn't even bothered to find out what the facts are. I am

:03:26.:03:31.

saying that it is wrong for us to link the named person with instances

:03:32.:03:37.

of children who are within the system and whether there are

:03:38.:03:44.

failings there or not. That is quite separate from those children who are

:03:45.:03:48.

already identified with serious concerns and we will find from the

:03:49.:03:51.

significant case review as to where those failings -- whether those

:03:52.:03:55.

failings took place in this instance. The main point is that

:03:56.:04:02.

this scheme is being piloted in places like the Highlands, it is

:04:03.:04:07.

being piloted in Fife will stop if there was a named person in this

:04:08.:04:11.

case, even a named person but not in terms of the legislation, as John

:04:12.:04:15.

Sweeney put it, quite clearly it has not worked. A named person, as I

:04:16.:04:20.

said earlier, is not supposed to be dealing with those children already

:04:21.:04:25.

identified as being of serious concern, where they should be a plan

:04:26.:04:30.

around it, where a number of different agencies should be around

:04:31.:04:34.

it. Again, I accept your point that it might not be sticky relevant in

:04:35.:04:38.

terms of this case, because this child was known to do that -- to

:04:39.:04:45.

children services, but what's at stake here is a flagship policy of

:04:46.:04:48.

children services, but what's at the Scottish Government and I fail

:04:49.:04:51.

to understand why, first of all, you haven't tried to find out what is

:04:52.:04:57.

actually happening here and secondly why it is simply not relevant to

:04:58.:04:59.

talk about the named person. He why it is simply not relevant to

:05:00.:05:02.

described people who have been talking about this is behaving

:05:03.:05:05.

unforgivably. What on earth do you mean? In the first instance, it has

:05:06.:05:14.

to be left to the serious case review to establish the facts of the

:05:15.:05:17.

case. I make that point in the article. The second one is that we

:05:18.:05:21.

know, and I repeat, the named person is not designed to try to assist

:05:22.:05:26.

those children where we are ready now there is another very serious

:05:27.:05:33.

concerns. There should be vigilant in terms of protecting those

:05:34.:05:39.

children or that child. If you had contacted Fife Council and said, I

:05:40.:05:42.

want to know exactly what happened here, quite rightly they would

:05:43.:05:44.

want to know exactly what happened said, no, there is a significant

:05:45.:05:48.

case review, and you would have agreed with them, but if at the --

:05:49.:05:54.

but if as the Children's Commissioner you had said, can you

:05:55.:06:00.

just tell me what the situation was with the named person, because I am

:06:01.:06:04.

not prejudging the review. Was there with the named person, because I am

:06:05.:06:11.

a named person in this case? Was it the full service or was it a limited

:06:12.:06:16.

version of it, whatever that means? But you don't seem to have done

:06:17.:06:20.

either of those things. As I have already said, in this instance, the

:06:21.:06:24.

circumstances, the level of protection that is required, the

:06:25.:06:27.

level of service that this child required, is way beyond that which

:06:28.:06:31.

would be made available under the Named Persons Act. The point I'm

:06:32.:06:35.

getting at is lack of transparency. If this is a flagship scheme, why

:06:36.:06:39.

can't the government say, this is what the situation was and that is

:06:40.:06:41.

that? There has been a lot of expectation

:06:42.:06:53.

placed on and they named personally able to deal with all the instances

:06:54.:06:57.

of concerns around children. The reason I have written the article is

:06:58.:07:04.

that is not the case. I still do not understand who is behaving

:07:05.:07:09.

unforgivably? I think people have been linking the named person

:07:10.:07:16.

somehow with the terrible tragedy of... It is reasonable. There has

:07:17.:07:23.

been no direct link made with named person and Liam Fee. The named

:07:24.:07:28.

person is an early intervention, it is picking up children at an early

:07:29.:07:32.

stage when there are concerns around children, rather than those children

:07:33.:07:38.

we have to be intervening in the terms of child intervention. Some

:07:39.:07:43.

charities have claimed that the Named Persons Act has been a success

:07:44.:07:50.

in their region. Given this case, how are the public men to judge how

:07:51.:07:55.

these pilot schemes are a success or not? There is an expectation about

:07:56.:08:05.

what the named person's service is meant to do. It is an early pick-up,

:08:06.:08:11.

we are concerned about children... How can we as a public know it is a

:08:12.:08:18.

success or not? The government need to present the expectations of Named

:08:19.:08:22.

Persons Act, what it will do. We have concerns about children who we

:08:23.:08:27.

do not pick up early enough and problems that exacerbate. If we get

:08:28.:08:32.

an early enough, we can support children and families at that stage.

:08:33.:08:37.

Thank you very much, Tam Baillie. It's time to review the week

:08:38.:08:39.

and to look ahead to what's coming I'm joined by Lynsey Bewes,

:08:40.:08:42.

political reporter for the Press Association,

:08:43.:08:46.

and by Kevin McKenna, Europe. Lindsay, are you getting

:08:47.:09:00.

excited? We have seemed to have reached levels of massive stadium

:09:01.:09:05.

over the European question this morning, everyone is wading in, from

:09:06.:09:14.

Boris Johnson and John Major. It is claimed with mixed with counterclaim

:09:15.:09:17.

as we saw and the Scottish referendum. I think the public are

:09:18.:09:21.

going to be pretty fed up of hearing these claims from either side and

:09:22.:09:25.

not getting facts, which we keep hearing they are looking for, shades

:09:26.:09:32.

of the Scottish Independence Referendum Bill? Kevin, are you

:09:33.:09:35.

excited about this? I am trying to be. I was listening very closely to

:09:36.:09:42.

John Prescott earlier in the first part of the programme. Speaking

:09:43.:09:46.

about the widespread perception, perhaps in the Labour Party, that

:09:47.:09:52.

this is a blue on blue debate and struggle. The passion and fervour

:09:53.:09:55.

and the mudslinging and the civil war that is going inside the

:09:56.:10:03.

Conservative Party makes you think that Will they recover from this?

:10:04.:10:07.

Will David Cameron be a casualty? But what is the debate for the rest

:10:08.:10:13.

of us. John Prescott is right to say that Labour people need to get in

:10:14.:10:17.

because we need people in the Labour Party to have a leg in this fight

:10:18.:10:27.

and people in the SNP. If you are a big supporter of Scottish

:10:28.:10:29.

independence, it is not clear what side... What side your dog should be

:10:30.:10:38.

barking on. I will be interested to see the debate between Nicola

:10:39.:10:42.

Sturgeon and Michael. The first question should be why you using the

:10:43.:10:50.

same questions to stay in Europe when you were opposing the

:10:51.:10:52.

independence referendum. That is why I wonder why the SNP are choosing to

:10:53.:10:57.

get so involved. If I was them I would be distancing myself, let them

:10:58.:11:04.

get on with it. I am not saying the SNP are playing a double game. I

:11:05.:11:10.

think they would say they are not. But there is a double game here. If

:11:11.:11:16.

you really want and India reft two, according to what the leadership of

:11:17.:11:21.

the SNP is in, your best result would be Britain out of the European

:11:22.:11:23.

Union and Scotland footing to stay. Union and Scotland footing to stay.

:11:24.:11:28.

-- independence referendum two. Nicola Sturgeon has said that if we

:11:29.:11:34.

have this dragging Scotland out of the EU in this Ford, there will be

:11:35.:11:39.

she is saying a second vote on independence. She is kind of keeping

:11:40.:11:44.

the party supporters happy there. But she is also sing she does not

:11:45.:11:49.

want to see that happen. I think in a lot of ways Nicola Sturgeon does

:11:50.:11:52.

not want to see that happen because the prospect of fighting for another

:11:53.:11:58.

referendum, and vote for Scottish independence is made harder in some

:11:59.:12:02.

ways by the UK leaving the EU. There are a whole host of other questions

:12:03.:12:08.

which have not been addressed about that, currency, EU membership is

:12:09.:12:15.

putting a whole different context. My main issue with independence for

:12:16.:12:31.

Scotland, if I want, IndyRef two, how do I vote? Is that second

:12:32.:12:37.

referendum going to be an easy referendum to win when all those

:12:38.:12:43.

issues come back and they are within a different context. You could say

:12:44.:12:46.

that that will be a tricky vote for Nicola Sturgeon to secure. My

:12:47.:12:54.

hypothetical person is good to say, forget that, I want a second

:12:55.:12:59.

independence referendum, which way should I vote? I am hearing this

:13:00.:13:03.

from everybody who has got an nationalist heart. Their instincts

:13:04.:13:08.

are saying I want to stay in because this will guarantee our employment

:13:09.:13:14.

rights, a rates of equality, or protections at work. But I am also

:13:15.:13:19.

passionate about having Scottish independence. Nicola Sturgeon and

:13:20.:13:25.

Alex Salmond have said that Scotland footing to stay in and the rest of

:13:26.:13:29.

the UK voting to stay out is a valid trigger. So tactically, maybe I

:13:30.:13:36.

should be voting to come out of Europe. However, if the vote overall

:13:37.:13:43.

is very, very close, then SNP supporters who are thinking of that,

:13:44.:13:47.

may have to wonder what their wish, be fearful of what they are wishing

:13:48.:13:49.

for. We will have to leave it there. I'll be back at the

:13:50.:13:55.

same time next week.

:13:56.:14:00.

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