02/10/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


02/10/2016

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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This programme contains some flashing images.

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We're live from sunny Birmingham on day one of

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the Conservative Party Conference, where, three months after Britain

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voted to leave the European Union, the Prime Minister has given

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us her first inkling of how she plans to do it.

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Morning, folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.

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Theresa May says she will trigger Article 50, starting the two year

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process of negotiations that will culminate in Britain

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leaving the EU, before the end of March next year.

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So Brexit by Easter 2019 - but what kind of relationship

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A Great Repeal Bill will also be voted on next Spring,

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but won't be enacted until we leave, at which point EU laws will be

:01:14.:01:18.

And what do Conservative MPs want to hear from their new leader?

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Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland: Here, Ruth Davidson says

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Brexit has to create the conditions for Scotland's industries

:01:35.:01:37.

to flourish - we'll be asking her what that means.

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explore the potential rise of Sidcup Man.

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So far no Great Repeal Act to get rid of the Sunday Politics Panel -

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Steve Richards, Rachel Sylvester and Tom Newton Dunn.

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It's 100 days since we voted to leave the EU and the clamour has

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grown for the Government to tell us what Brexit would look like.

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This morning, as the Tory faithful gather in Birmingham,

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we still don't expect to be told what Brexit means but we do know

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more about the timetable and the extrication process.

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A Bill will go before parliament this spring to repeal the 1972

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European Communities Act, which legalised our membership

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But it won't actually come into force until we leave.

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Theresa May also told the Andrew Marr Show that

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Article 50 would be invoked by March of next year -

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starting the two year process of renegotiation before we leave.

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I have been saying we would not trigger it before the end of this

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year, so that we get confirmation in place. I will be saying in my speech

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today that we will trigger before the end of March next year. The

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remaining members of the EU have to decide what the process of

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negotiation is. I hope, and I will be saying to them, that now they

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know what the time is going to be, it is not an exact date, but they

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know it will be the first quarter of next year, that we will be able to

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have some preparatory work so that once the trigger comes we have a

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smoother process of negotiation. Theresa May, on this channel, just

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over an hour ago. What do you make of it? Saggy as you said, we know

:03:27.:03:30.

more about when but we don't know what Brexit is going to be. We don't

:03:31.:03:36.

know how the relationship will work out, we don't know what the Prime

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Minister's negotiation position will be, we haven't worked out anything

:03:40.:03:43.

about the free market access and freedom of movement. All of the

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substance. It is a significant announcement but we don't actually

:03:47.:03:49.

know anything really big about what our lives are going to be like in

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future. Is there a risk from the Prime Minister? Is there a risk

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putting this before Parliament to repeal the 1972 Communities Act?

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Undoubtedly. Anything you put before the House of Commons or the House of

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Lords, where there is no Tory majority, let alone a Brexit

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majority, risks getting amended. She runs the risk. There is also a risk

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of not saying this, not having the greater appeal, which is actually a

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great repeal act, when is being repealed, but she needed to throw

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the Tory right red meat, and they got it this morning. There is always

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the potential of a constitutional crisis. If the Lords were to dig in

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over this, or even digging over Article 50, demand a vote on that,

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lawyers are arguing whether you need it or not, it may not be plain

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sailing when you have a majority of 12? It definitely isn't going to be

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with a majority of 12. The scope for constitutional crisis is many.

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Clashes with the Lords, clashes with the Commons, Scotland is still there

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in the background allows a significant factor. It will always

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be there, but perhaps in a different context. I don't think this will be

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the trigger for a constitutional crisis. You have to admire the

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elegant choreography. I was told ages ago that she knew she could not

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keep carry on saying Brexit means Brexit, there will have to be new

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lines. This is beautiful. We kind of knew that Article 50 was going to be

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triggered early in next year. David Davis even said that. It was a fair

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bet it would be before Easter. They couldn't spend the next two years

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negotiating Brexit and refocusing the entire legislative programme to

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spend the next two years rejigging the mountain of legislation we are

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affected with. They have turned a logistical, unavoidable

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inevitability into a sense of momentum this weekend. Very clever

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presentation. There are going to be huge crises to come over this.

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Picking off the 1972 Act, putting it all into British law and

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legislation, rather than dependent on Europe, that is what the

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Brexiteers wanted. To that extent, she has thrown them a bit of red

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meat today? Yes, but we still don't know what Brexit is going to be. But

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a bit of red meat keeps you going for a while. Maybe get them through

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to lunch time. Today or tomorrow? Really just today. The tactic is to

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get some stuff about Brexit out, get them talking about that and then

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move onto agenda she wants, domestic. What do you think? Good

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luck with that! Are you reading my script coming up? It was on the

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autocue, I'm sorry! Clearly, she is accessed about not making his

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premiership all about Brexit. It will be, but she is desperate. She

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needs to define herself away from Brexit, who is Theresa May, what did

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she really believe? We have heard whispers, but the next few days as a

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chance to do that. The fringe, Liam Fox is talking at two fringes. Two

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opportunities for a story. David Davis as well. These two men of

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great talent and potentially great ego, they will not be able to stop

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themselves having feelings heard. And Boris. Boris who? I have not

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seen him on the fringes. Fringe meetings have been quite dull at

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party conferences recently. Because of this issue, I think people are

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going to pack them out. That is where words might be said, explosive

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words. We live for fringe meetings! The PM hopes her announcement

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will deal with Brexit on day one so the conference can get on to talk

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about other matters. But as you can see from this not

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so slim tome - the conference guide- there are plenty of other issues

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to talk, maybe even argue about. Our Ellie caught up with two Tory

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MPs from different sides of the party before they set off,

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to see what they think lies in store # Just can't wait to

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get on the road again # The life I love is making

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music with my friends # And I can't wait to get

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on the road again...# Do you actually enjoy going

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to conference? It's not as much fun

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as when you're not an MP, because now people want to talk

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to you and everybody But do you make contacts,

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do you network? Do think Theresa May gets

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nervous about conference, I think if you are performing

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on a big stage, whoever you are, you ought to have a few

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nerves jangling around. But she's a polished performer,

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I'm sure she'll know Theresa May will also know she has

:09:08.:09:10.

several contentious issues she needs It is perhaps not surprising,

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then, that day one of We're pretty well balanced

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between those of us like myself, representing constituencies

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with really high levels of research, science

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and agriculture, who will be very keen, but probably pragmatically

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understanding that we are not going to hear everything

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tomorrow, and the rest of the party who are just

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desperate for information. If they don't think the deal

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is going in the right way, they will want to say

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something about it. I think the time frame

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is pretty clear. We are going to trigger Article 50

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at some point relatively That means we will get

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the negotiations done a good year The rest is going to be

:09:53.:09:56.

important meat on the bones. But, in terms of the core strategy,

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Theresa May goes into this So, a unified front,

:10:00.:10:02.

albeit perhaps fragile. But then there is the question

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of grammar schools. Depends whether we hear

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more about it. You know, the concept

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in its one-dimensional sense, you can't have a problem

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with that, can you? Giving parents choice,

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giving bright children the chance But, for me, for many of us,

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it has to be a package Our teachers are pretty

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stressed and overworked I'm not actually sure

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this is the right time. I would rather see emphasis

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being put on fairer funding. Constituencies like mine have been

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underfunded for decades. If you go into politics

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and government scared of your own shadow, unprepared to do

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anything bold or brave, I think there is no risk-free

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option. Of course, people have different

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views on grammar schools and it is a totemic political

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issue as well. But I think if you read the green

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paper, the Prime Minister has set out a very sensible,

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carefully calibrated approach, The new PM also faces big strategic

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decisions on expensive projects like airport expansion,

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an area even her Cabinet With all these big infrastructure

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projects, HS2, Heathrow, issues around fracking,

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nuclear as well, I think we have got to take the right decisions

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for the country, make sure Britain Each one of those is

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thorny in its own right. But what I think is most important

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is we look at it very carefully, That is where we all start to see

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the metal in Theresa, Whilst on the one hand,

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having a Prime Minister - nobody could have been more

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delighted than me that we managed to cut the tax credits changes -

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but having a Prime Minister that sticks to her guns,

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I'm not for U-turning, How confident are you,

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going to this conference, that it is all going to be sorted

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and you are going to be Well, people predicted an economic

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nosedive after the referendum. People said there would

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be political chaos. Actually, the economy

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has proved resilient. I think there is a sense of resolve

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on all sides of the party on all of these different issues

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to get behind this Prime Minister Last year, you got into a bit

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of trouble, being quite vocal Some suggestion you weren't

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a proper conservative. I think I am absolutely

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a proper conservative. I think my party needed reminding

:12:20.:12:22.

what conservative was. Our job is to help people who need

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a leg up. Her opening speech in Downing Street

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told me she absolutely is. Like all of these things,

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we will hear more about this week. # And I can't wait to get on the

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road again. # And we're joined now

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by the Transport Secretary, who was a leading Leave campaigner,

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Chris Grayling. Welcome back to the programme. The

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great repeal act, what exactly does it repeal? It repeal the 1972

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European Communities Act. It means the European Court of Justice no

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longer has sway in the United Kingdom. It means the European

:13:15.:13:17.

Commission and Parliament no longer make laws for us. As of today, in

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our system, European law is supreme over UK law, and it repeal that.

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Except what it does is it consolidates all existing European

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legislation into British law. It would be more accurate to call it

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the great Consolidation act? Is This is what I argued for during the

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League campaign. The remaining campaign said you could not do it,

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it will take years, it will be a disaster. My response then is what

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it is now, the best way to do it is to consolidate existing legislation,

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much of which we will want to keep, the environmental measures, the

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workers' rights measures, what we want to do is to make sure we can

:13:57.:14:00.

get certainty before the event and after the event, for workers,

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businesses, but what the legal position will be. Over time, we have

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the freedom, outside the European Union, free from the control of the

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European Court, to change our legal system in the way that we want. It

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does mean we would leave the EU with all of this EU law still part of

:14:17.:14:23.

British law. Now, what would you wish to change in the aftermath?

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There is a whole variety of different things we will be looking

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at a change. For example, if you want a practical one, it is unlikely

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that after we have left the European Union we will still be paying child

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benefits to children that have never even entered the United Kingdom.

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That is the kind of thing we will be free to change after we have left.

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What else? Much of it we will want to keep, environmental measures, not

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all that has been done in the European Union for 40 years has been

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bad for Britain. How long will it take to pick all of this after we

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leave? Will be down to the Government to decide... Ten years?

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20 years? It will take it as long as we choose. What is right and proper

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is that on the day after there is a degree of certainty for businesses.

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It would not be fair for a company to be operating under a set of

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rules, for there to be a cliff edge where they do not know what is going

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to happen the day after. Let's make it an evolution, not a revolution. A

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lot of the things you have to agree to enter negotiations mean it will

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have to remain law even after we leave? This clearly the case that if

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a business in this country is continuing to sell a product in the

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European Union, it will have to make the standards of the European Union.

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Those rules will apply. That is the same if we're selling to the United

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States, the rules of the United States would apply to a business

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planning to sell a product there. What happens if you lose the vote?

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It is inconceivable that Parliament can look at the view of the British

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public and ignore it. Parliament voted overwhelmingly for the

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referendum to take place in the first place, the people have given a

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mandate and I am certain Parliament will fulfil it.

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What would happen? You have a majority of only 12 and there was a

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majority for remain in the Commons and there is a large majority in the

:16:18.:16:23.

house of lords. If the parliament does not seamlessly agree for what

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you call the great repeal act, what would happen? Both houses are full

:16:29.:16:34.

of Democrats and they will respect the will of the people. But we could

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be faced with a constitutional crisis? We have taken the decision

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to leave and parliament voted for the referendum and it is

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inconceivable that Parliament would not allow that process to go

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forward. If the inconceivable happen, you'd have to cores and --

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call an election. Inconceivable is a bit of a stretch. Plenty of voices,

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particularly in the House of Lords, would use this as a an opportunity

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to thwart you. And I don't think the House of Lords will turn around and

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say we should not fulfil that. There may be dissenting voices but they

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will view it as a democratic mandate that we have to fulfil. Has your

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party don soundings in the Commons to make sure you can get this

:17:37.:17:42.

through? I've not been involved in that discussion but parliament will

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respond to the will of the people. That's the way this country works.

:17:47.:17:51.

That's what you hope. We shall see how it works. We've been told by the

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Prime Minister this morning that article 50 will be triggered by the

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end of March. That means that we are out by Easter 2019. Can you confirm

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that those British members of the European Parliament currently in

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Strasberg, there will be no more for them after this. If we have left by

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the end of the two-year period. It is technically possible to extend

:18:21.:18:26.

it. After that period, there wouldn't be EP is after that point

:18:27.:18:40.

in 2019. -- MEPs. For Brexit to mean Brexit, the famous phrase, which is

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basically tautology. It would mean the freedom to have our own trade

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laws. It would mean the ability to do that? You are leading me to

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answer questions about the specific legal structures. It means our own

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free-trade deals? Correct. It would mean we are no longer subject to the

:19:13.:19:18.

rules of the European Court of Justice. Also correct. And we would

:19:19.:19:30.

have whatever control we desire over immigration? The Prime Minister has

:19:31.:19:34.

been clear that we need to control the flow of immigration into the

:19:35.:19:39.

country. Any of these counts as out from being a member of the single

:19:40.:19:43.

market. So can we agree that there is no way we can remain a member of

:19:44.:19:50.

the single market? There is no such thing as a member of the single

:19:51.:19:54.

market. There are a number of different trading agreements within

:19:55.:20:00.

the EU. We are effectively a member of the single market now but we

:20:01.:20:03.

can't be after this. The question you have asked me, do we want to be

:20:04.:20:10.

Norway, Switzerland, Canada when it comes to trading arrangements? We

:20:11.:20:15.

want to be the United Kingdom. We are the biggest customer of German

:20:16.:20:20.

car-makers, French farmers... I don't want to have the referendum

:20:21.:20:28.

fight again. It seems as black as black or as White is white that if

:20:29.:20:33.

you want all of that we cannot be a member, we can have access on terms

:20:34.:20:38.

yet to be agreed, we will have a relationship, but why cannot you say

:20:39.:20:43.

that we won't be a member in the way that we are currently a member of

:20:44.:20:47.

the single market? We won't be a member of the European Union but

:20:48.:20:53.

there is no such thing as a member of the single market. There is no

:20:54.:20:58.

single market in services, for example. There is but it is not as

:20:59.:21:04.

developed as goods. I believe we will end up with a trading

:21:05.:21:07.

partnership with the European Union on terms to be agreed that will work

:21:08.:21:12.

for both of us. Access but not membership. You cannot be a fully

:21:13.:21:18.

paid-up member of the single market without the European Court of

:21:19.:21:22.

Justice ruling on it and you don't want that. I don't understand your

:21:23.:21:32.

problem. Your pre-merging -- prejudging the outcome of

:21:33.:21:36.

negotiations. We want the best possible trading arrangements with

:21:37.:21:39.

European neighbours and that is what we will work towards. Where

:21:40.:21:44.

different to the other countries that have been involved in these

:21:45.:21:47.

negotiations before. We have heard all that before in the referendum

:21:48.:21:51.

and we wanted some clarity on what it would mean. Transport, when will

:21:52.:21:58.

you give is the decision on runway expansion? I'm not going to set a

:21:59.:22:02.

date today. I've spent the summer looking at the three different

:22:03.:22:06.

options. We have three very well presented packages. The airport

:22:07.:22:09.

commission has looked at it carefully and the Prime Minister and

:22:10.:22:14.

I want to understand the options in detail and understand the strengths

:22:15.:22:17.

and weaknesses of each and we will reach our decision shortly. I'm not

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going to set a date on it. Shortly means in this year, surely. I don't

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want to wait unnecessarily long to take the decision but nor do I want

:22:32.:22:36.

to set a date so to to work towards that. Will there be a free vote? I

:22:37.:22:43.

need to identify the best option for Britain and take the best possible

:22:44.:22:47.

approach to get the support of parliament Porritt. Will there be a

:22:48.:22:54.

free vote? Decisions have not been taken but we will do the best for

:22:55.:23:01.

the interests of the country. Theresa May has said the options for

:23:02.:23:07.

an expansion to Heathrow are seriously flawed. Philip Hammond has

:23:08.:23:16.

described the Heathrow option as dead as a Norwegian parrot. Can you

:23:17.:23:19.

be sure that the Prime Minister and Anna Chancellor will vote for your

:23:20.:23:24.

proposal? We are looking at three options that are very new. One of

:23:25.:23:35.

them is Heathrow. Warrant -- they are very different options to what

:23:36.:23:39.

has been proposed in the past. They are all very well crafted proposals.

:23:40.:23:44.

They are interesting and have potential and we need to decide.

:23:45.:23:54.

That is why I am asking you. HS2, high-speed train, can you state

:23:55.:23:59.

categorically it will go ahead? It's due to start construction in the

:24:00.:24:03.

spring. The hybrids Bill Haas to continue its passage through the

:24:04.:24:12.

house of law -- the hybrid Bill Haas to continue through its passage in

:24:13.:24:25.

the house of lords. Will it be 2026? Will it be on-time and on budget?

:24:26.:24:31.

The select committee of MPs said it is unlikely and will certainly be

:24:32.:24:36.

over budget. I expected be absolutely clear and on -- expected

:24:37.:24:48.

to be absolutely on-time and on budget. The latest estimate for

:24:49.:24:54.

phase one, the core cast is ?14 billion but there is contingency on

:24:55.:25:01.

top of that. How much? It is set to Treasury rules. It is always going

:25:02.:25:09.

to be over. If you really believed in the Northern powerhouse wouldn't

:25:10.:25:13.

this money be better spent instead of making it quicker to come to and

:25:14.:25:21.

Birmingham from London in under 90 minutes, which you already can,

:25:22.:25:26.

wouldn't it be better to spend the money on state of the art road links

:25:27.:25:38.

between East and West in the north. I think we need to do both. We can't

:25:39.:25:46.

get more freight onto rail without creating more space. By taking fast

:25:47.:25:54.

trains off the West Coast main line which is already busy and put fast

:25:55.:25:59.

freight trains onto the new route, you create more capacity for places

:26:00.:26:04.

like Milton Keynes Dons Northampton, Coventry. It is about making sure we

:26:05.:26:09.

have a transport system that can cope with the demands of the

:26:10.:26:12.

21st-century. Thank you very much. Now, as we speak, voters in Hungary

:26:13.:26:15.

are going to the polls to vote on whether to accept mandatory EU

:26:16.:26:19.

quotas for relocating migrants. The country's government has been

:26:20.:26:21.

campaigning for voters to reject the EU's proposals and has run

:26:22.:26:24.

a highly controversial campaign, accusing migrants of terrorism

:26:25.:26:26.

and crime - and the Prime Minister Viktor Orban has said today he'll

:26:27.:26:28.

quit if the country votes In response to the ongoing migrant

:26:29.:26:31.

crisis, the EU wants to establish a permanent European resettlement

:26:32.:26:36.

programme, under which, member states must take their fair

:26:37.:26:38.

share of asylum seekers, depending on the size of each

:26:39.:26:40.

country's population and economy. If countries refuse,

:26:41.:26:44.

the European Commission has proposed that they would incur a financial

:26:45.:26:46.

penalty of 250,000 euros per person, to cover the cost of another

:26:47.:26:51.

country taking them. Hungarian Foreign Minister Peter

:26:52.:26:56.

Szijjarto said the plan Last year, Hungary rejected

:26:57.:26:58.

an emergency EU plan that would have seen tens of thousands of refugees

:26:59.:27:03.

transferred out of the country in return for accepting a quota

:27:04.:27:07.

of almost 1300 refugees As an EU border country,

:27:08.:27:10.

Hungary has received 18,500 In 2015, it received the most asylum

:27:11.:27:16.

applications relative to its population of any EU state -

:27:17.:27:23.

1800 for every 100,000 local people, though the majority of those then

:27:24.:27:28.

travelled onwards to other Although the referendum

:27:29.:27:31.

result will have no affect on the EU's decision,

:27:32.:27:38.

the Hungarian government hopes the weight of public opinion

:27:39.:27:40.

will help it resist the plans, running a very controversial

:27:41.:27:43.

referendum campaign. For example, this poster saying

:27:44.:27:46.

migrants carried out We're joined now from Budapest

:27:47.:27:48.

by our Correspondent, Nick Thorpe. I understand that the polls are

:27:49.:28:02.

pretty clear that the government will win this referendum but it

:28:03.:28:07.

needs a turnout of at least 50% for it to matter. What indication of

:28:08.:28:16.

turnout so far? As of 11am, turnout was just over 16% of the electorate.

:28:17.:28:24.

We have an electrode of 8.3 million, the government is campaigning

:28:25.:28:30.

strongly for a no vote. The government have framed the question

:28:31.:28:34.

in such a way that it is hard to vote, yes, we do want this imposed

:28:35.:28:46.

on us. The issue of turnout is important because the opposition

:28:47.:28:52.

have campaigned not to vote or to spoil votes. Even if the government

:28:53.:29:00.

wins on the numbers, if more people vote against the quotas, is it a

:29:01.:29:04.

symbolic defeat for the government if that was to happen? Some people

:29:05.:29:11.

will argue it would be a symbolic defeat if they don't get 50%. We've

:29:12.:29:18.

heard that ministers are backing off the whole issue of turnout. They are

:29:19.:29:22.

hoping for at least 3 million people to vote. Even 4 million which would

:29:23.:29:29.

be the 50%, voting no to migrant quotas. They say that all of those

:29:30.:29:35.

votes will give them a strong moral hand. In the words of the Prime

:29:36.:29:39.

Minister, it will sharpen the Hungarian sword in the battles

:29:40.:29:41.

ahead. Thank you very much. Malin Bjork is Swedish

:29:42.:29:46.

MEP and Vice Chair of the Confederal Group

:29:47.:29:49.

of the European United Left Welcome to the programme. The quota

:29:50.:30:02.

system proposed already seem to be dying if the Hungarians vote the way

:30:03.:30:08.

they are expected to today, that will kill it, will it not? I think

:30:09.:30:15.

we should have it as a point of departure whether we have seen that

:30:16.:30:20.

Hungary is a model in any of the fields that we want hungry -- Europe

:30:21.:30:28.

to be. I don't think Hungary is the model. I don't think we should give

:30:29.:30:32.

him the kind of weight that he actually claims. He wants more

:30:33.:30:37.

weight to this referendum. I don't think we should give it to him.

:30:38.:30:44.

It is not just Hungary, is it? There are meant to be 100,000 migrants

:30:45.:30:50.

covered by the quota system, fewer than 5% have been covered by it. It

:30:51.:30:55.

is just not happening, whether Hungary votes for or against? No, it

:30:56.:31:01.

is totally... But that means it is not operational, it is simply not

:31:02.:31:04.

working. There are serious criticisms to have towards

:31:05.:31:08.

implementing partners in this. But I do think when it comes to the

:31:09.:31:11.

political course, Hungary is playing a very dangerous, racist and right

:31:12.:31:16.

nationalist game. I don't think we should adapt to it. If it comes to

:31:17.:31:22.

it, we have to be prepared to be behind those that do not want to be

:31:23.:31:26.

the Europe that is taking responsibility globally. Let me

:31:27.:31:30.

clarify what you mean by that. The Foreign Minister of Luxembourg has

:31:31.:31:34.

already said that Hungary should be expelled from the European Union. Is

:31:35.:31:40.

that what you are saying as well? No, no. You know what I think? As a

:31:41.:31:46.

progressive politician on the left side, I do have a lot of criticisms

:31:47.:31:52.

to the European Union. But there are planets apart from the kind of

:31:53.:31:55.

models that Viktor Orban is trying to build, where he does not respect

:31:56.:32:01.

human rights, laws and media freedoms, and now he attacks refugee

:32:02.:32:05.

rights. Given all of that, let's accept what you say is true about

:32:06.:32:10.

that, others may dispute it, but let's accept that as true, why

:32:11.:32:15.

should Hungary remain a member of the European Union? Well, it is up

:32:16.:32:19.

to each country that has voted to stay, and voted to become members,

:32:20.:32:25.

voting to stay, I don't think Orban has any intention of leaving EU. I

:32:26.:32:29.

think he wants more influence in the EU. I think he wants more influence

:32:30.:32:33.

domestic league through the referendum and more influence in the

:32:34.:32:36.

EU. The question the rest of the countries have to ask themselves is

:32:37.:32:40.

if we are going to give it to him or adapt to his politics in any of

:32:41.:32:43.

these fields he is active in? I think we should make a stand against

:32:44.:32:47.

it. We should have political forces in other countries that have exactly

:32:48.:32:51.

the same kind of agendas, which we don't want to see strengthened.

:32:52.:32:56.

Isn't the problem that may be Hungary is on the trend, and you are

:32:57.:33:01.

not? We have seem the right, some may call it the far right even, on

:33:02.:33:06.

the march in Austria, Poland and in Hungary, even in Germany, with the

:33:07.:33:11.

recent elections in Berlin and Angela Merkel's backyard, even

:33:12.:33:15.

progressive social Democratic Sweden, your third biggest party is

:33:16.:33:23.

now the Sweden, Democrats, a hard right nativist party. Why are forces

:33:24.:33:27.

on the move, and while the forces used and four on the defensive? The

:33:28.:33:31.

more progressive forces, I think they are growing in many countries

:33:32.:33:36.

also, such as Spain, Ireland and other countries. It is not just for

:33:37.:33:41.

the left, it is for the broader political spectrum to counteract

:33:42.:33:44.

nationalist, right-wing and racist forces. We know where they lead, a

:33:45.:33:49.

dead end. It is a challenge in the European countries. Why is Europe

:33:50.:33:53.

going in this direction? In 2016, why are the forces of the rights so

:33:54.:33:55.

strong? To be honest, I have to be a little bit more humble

:33:56.:34:07.

and say are we failing people in some way? Yes, austerity policies

:34:08.:34:11.

are not working. Inequalities have grown for over 20 years in Europe.

:34:12.:34:16.

Of course it is a failure. We are capable of saving banks, but not

:34:17.:34:21.

refugees. People see this. It is political failure and I think we

:34:22.:34:24.

have to sit down and create different pacifists. What is

:34:25.:34:26.

have to sit down and create happening now is worrying. I see

:34:27.:34:30.

some of the political forces in Europe. -- create different

:34:31.:34:34.

patterns. I see parties in Europe adapting to racism nationalist

:34:35.:34:43.

voices. I think we have to be the different parties that will not

:34:44.:34:46.

adapt to nationalist stories. They paint imaginary enemies. A huge

:34:47.:34:54.

chunk of Hungary's public spending comes from the European Union, net

:34:55.:34:58.

contributors like Sweden and the United Kingdom. If Hungary votes

:34:59.:35:02.

this way, should that continue? Should we continue to bankroll it?

:35:03.:35:09.

The way Europe and the European Union, individual members develop,

:35:10.:35:12.

of course we should lead discussions about money and heel spending to the

:35:13.:35:18.

respect for rule of law, the respect for human rights and the respect for

:35:19.:35:24.

international rights that are being infringed by the Hungarian

:35:25.:35:27.

government. Of course, we have to have such a discussion and it has to

:35:28.:35:29.

be frank. It's just gone 11.35,

:35:30.:35:33.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:35:34.:35:35.

in Scotland who leave us now Good morning and welcome

:35:36.:35:43.

to Sunday Politics Scotland. As the Conservatives

:35:44.:35:45.

gather in Birmingham, Theresa May will announce

:35:46.:35:49.

a Great Repeal Bill to end The party's Scottish leader

:35:50.:35:51.

Ruth Davidson says Brexit must meet the needs of Scottish business,

:35:52.:35:58.

I'll be asking her what she means and how on earth she intends

:35:59.:36:01.

to get her way. We have had two seemingly momentous

:36:02.:36:19.

bits of news about Brexit this morning. Theresa May says she will

:36:20.:36:23.

trigger Article 50, the formal process that will move to not likely

:36:24.:36:26.

to Britain leaving the EU by next March.

:36:27.:36:32.

But that doesn't leave us any clearer about what great that

:36:33.:36:42.

This all sounds terribly momentous, but do we really know any more about

:36:43.:36:52.

where we're going to end up? I think we are getting more on the process

:36:53.:36:59.

of it, but on the politics, on what brand it actually means and a strict

:37:00.:37:03.

definition, we are not much closer today than we were a couple of weeks

:37:04.:37:08.

ago, than we were in June. The key announcement this morning is on the

:37:09.:37:12.

triggering of Article 50, the former all process of leaving the EU. That

:37:13.:37:16.

will happen, Theresa May says, by the end of March, is in the UK on

:37:17.:37:22.

course to leave the EU by April, 2019. That is down to a host of

:37:23.:37:27.

different factors. If all EU countries decided they wanted to

:37:28.:37:31.

extend the process, it could be for longer. It could also be shorter if

:37:32.:37:35.

there is an agreement to that end. A bit more detail on what happens

:37:36.:37:41.

after we leave, that greater appeal act, which ends the supremacy of

:37:42.:37:45.

European law in the UK. All European laws would then be converted into UK

:37:46.:37:51.

law. We will go through them line by mine, figuring out what we want to

:37:52.:37:54.

keep and what we want to get rid of. I suspect will be some questions in

:37:55.:37:58.

the coming days and weeks. Questions about what that means in a Scottish

:37:59.:38:04.

context, whether Holyrood has to be consulted, whether it has a vote on

:38:05.:38:08.

certain elements of repealing those laws, whatever happens. On the

:38:09.:38:16.

politics, no real detail yet of what the UK Government actually wants,

:38:17.:38:20.

the key things we will be taking into those talks with European

:38:21.:38:23.

partners. We did get a head from Theresa May this morning, a subtle

:38:24.:38:27.

one, that immigration and control over borders could be more important

:38:28.:38:34.

than access to the single market. That could put the UK Government on

:38:35.:38:40.

a collision course with the Scottish governments. Nicola Sturgeon has

:38:41.:38:43.

made it clear that not just access the membership of the single market

:38:44.:38:47.

is a key demand from Hollywood's in Brexit talks. The UK Government has

:38:48.:38:53.

also been clear that it won't be negotiating in public, so in terms

:38:54.:38:59.

of the ins and outs of what we will see, I don't think we are much

:39:00.:39:04.

closer. The other thing is that Theresa May has said she doesn't

:39:05.:39:07.

want this conference to be completely dominated by Brexit. I

:39:08.:39:11.

presume the other big thing will be trying to present themselves as, we

:39:12.:39:14.

are not the David Cameron governments, this is something

:39:15.:39:18.

different. Are we going to see anything on this front? I expect

:39:19.:39:24.

that his rights. Theresa May pates and tribute David Cameron when she

:39:25.:39:27.

was on Andrew Marr's programme this morning, she also wants to set out

:39:28.:39:31.

to run stall. She wants to make it clear that this government is hers,

:39:32.:39:36.

taking her messages forward. Although Brexit is the reason she is

:39:37.:39:40.

by Minister will be the dominating issue for governments, it is not the

:39:41.:39:44.

only one she wants to talk about. If you look anywhere around this whole,

:39:45.:39:49.

you see the message, a country that works for everyone. That was the

:39:50.:39:52.

message when she took over in Downing Street and something we will

:39:53.:39:55.

hear a lot more about over the next few days. Today, in some sense, is

:39:56.:40:02.

about getting the breaks apart on the table, getting some of the

:40:03.:40:06.

logistics out of the way. There will be a session this afternoon where

:40:07.:40:10.

they will all give speeches on what they think could be the positives of

:40:11.:40:16.

Brexit, but after that, I suspect by Wednesday, when we get to Theresa

:40:17.:40:21.

May's main speech, she will want to be giving more details of the

:40:22.:40:24.

nitty-gritty of governments, the issues she cares about, the things

:40:25.:40:28.

she thinks will benefit the country. Thank you very much.

:40:29.:40:31.

A short while ago I spoke to the leader of the Scottish

:40:32.:40:33.

Conservatives, Ruth Davidson, who's in Birmingham.

:40:34.:40:36.

I began by asking her how she proposed to influence the Brexit

:40:37.:40:42.

negotiations in Scotland's interest. I have already sat down with the

:40:43.:40:46.

Foreign Secretary and spoken in the last few days with David Davis, as

:40:47.:40:50.

well as regular conversations with Number ten. It's important that

:40:51.:40:51.

Scotland is my voice is heard. I'm Number ten. It's important that

:40:52.:40:55.

pleased to see the written understanding within the UK

:40:56.:40:58.

Government that they want to take the devolved administrations along

:40:59.:41:02.

with them. David Davis spoke to Nicola Sturgeon last night about the

:41:03.:41:06.

announcement today on Brexit. As the laying out of things. It's important

:41:07.:41:09.

that we do this as a whole country and in the manner. But you have said

:41:10.:41:15.

that you want to stay in the single market, is that still your ambition?

:41:16.:41:20.

I think there is a misnomer about the single market but it is a binary

:41:21.:41:24.

choice to be in or come out. It's not, it is a quotation of access. As

:41:25.:41:29.

someone that those hidden works pretty hard to campaign to stay in

:41:30.:41:33.

the EU as a whole, of course I want to have the maximum amount of access

:41:34.:41:37.

to the single market. That's one of the reasons I was campaigning on the

:41:38.:41:40.

side of a Zen. I think we heard today from the prime minister, what

:41:41.:41:44.

we have heard from others and governments, is a real

:41:45.:41:46.

acknowledgement that we have got to make certainty there are businesses

:41:47.:41:50.

across the UK, for investors in the UK, to make sure they know... Just

:41:51.:41:58.

to take one example, you talks this morning about wanting Scottish

:41:59.:42:03.

financial businesses to have passport thing in the European

:42:04.:42:06.

Union. This is a system whereby if you are back, for example, you

:42:07.:42:10.

register in one European country and you have access across the EU. I

:42:11.:42:15.

know what no suggestion that you can maintain our sporting and financial

:42:16.:42:19.

services unless you are a full member of the single market. All I

:42:20.:42:25.

was saying today in the papers is what people have been saying to me.

:42:26.:42:29.

I have had people through my office over the summer and into awesome,

:42:30.:42:32.

from different sectors in Scotland, saying the opportunities they see

:42:33.:42:35.

from Brexit, the protections they want when we come out, because see

:42:36.:42:39.

they issues that might affect them that you mentally. I making sure I

:42:40.:42:43.

am plugged in as passing all about back to the UK Government. I would

:42:44.:42:46.

expect the Scottish Government is doing the same thing and I know...

:42:47.:42:53.

What I am suggesting to you is that it will be impossible to have passed

:42:54.:42:59.

voting for financial services without being a full member of the

:43:00.:43:05.

single market. There is no sign whatsoever from any of Theresa May's

:43:06.:43:10.

ministers that they are entertaining such an idea. But again I think you

:43:11.:43:15.

are falling into the trap that the single market is a binary choice of

:43:16.:43:19.

in or out. It's not, it is about the levels of access we have. There has

:43:20.:43:24.

never been a country that has left the EU before, so all of this we are

:43:25.:43:27.

starting from scratch. There is work going on to make sure we get the

:43:28.:43:32.

best deals in the UK, including Scotland. I know the Scottish

:43:33.:43:34.

Government has been included in that as we go forward. All of these

:43:35.:43:39.

things will be on the table when it comes to the negotiations. We have

:43:40.:43:42.

heard this morning from the Prime Minister how we start moving towards

:43:43.:43:46.

that. Would you like to keep free movement of Labour? As I keep coming

:43:47.:43:56.

back to, I was quite enthusiastic in supporting the remaining campaign,

:43:57.:43:58.

which included free movement of Labour, so that was one of the

:43:59.:44:03.

things I was arguing for. Unfortunately 17.5 million people

:44:04.:44:07.

disagreed with me. There was a wish within the country, not my wish, but

:44:08.:44:11.

a wish within the wider UK, that there were some restrictions put on

:44:12.:44:15.

my of this country. For me, that wasn't something I was arguing for,

:44:16.:44:20.

in fact, I was arguing very strongly against it. That means that is going

:44:21.:44:23.

to have to happen. How can we shape that and make sure that we get the

:44:24.:44:29.

best Labour force to the UK? Irrespective of whether that comes

:44:30.:44:32.

from within the EU, outside the EU, or accommodation of the two. Before

:44:33.:44:41.

we move on, can I suggest a nice celebratory party conference

:44:42.:44:43.

sentence for you to say, given what is in the papers this morning? How

:44:44.:44:47.

about saying, I have confidence in Boris Johnson? I have always had

:44:48.:44:52.

confidence in the role of the Foreign Secretary. That's not the

:44:53.:44:58.

same as saying my sentence! I suggested you say, I have confidence

:44:59.:45:02.

in Boris Johnson. We know you love the poster Foreign Secretary. I sat

:45:03.:45:08.

down with Boris, we had a very good meeting, he is taking the role

:45:09.:45:13.

incredible is seriously. He speaks five languages and has worked in

:45:14.:45:18.

Brussels. He was born in America. In terms of cost conditions for the

:45:19.:45:22.

job, he has got them in spades. He is applying himself to the job. I

:45:23.:45:26.

think that shows a real will. He is wanting to engage with the Scottish

:45:27.:45:31.

Government, adding to engage with Scotland to make sure... Why won't

:45:32.:45:35.

you say the sentence? I have confidence in Boris Johnson! Why

:45:36.:45:41.

won't you say it? I have confidence that like I have more confidence in

:45:42.:45:44.

him now that I have sat down with him than I had before. That's

:45:45.:45:49.

ambiguous! If you want to say and what happens in the Brexit

:45:50.:45:52.

negotiations, why shouldn't there be a formal sabre Nicola Sturgeon? Her

:45:53.:45:57.

party was elected as the government of Scotland. Your party wasn't. She

:45:58.:46:03.

might have some input but she does no right to say that some of the

:46:04.:46:07.

things you want M financial passport and has to be in the deal. As I

:46:08.:46:12.

said, there is a full acknowledgement from the UK

:46:13.:46:15.

Government 's that the consultation will go one with the Scottish

:46:16.:46:18.

Government. David Davis spoke to Nicola Sturgeon last night. He has

:46:19.:46:23.

already sat down with Mike Russell, the Minister Nicola Sturgeon has put

:46:24.:46:26.

in charge of the negotiations on behalf of the Scottish Government. I

:46:27.:46:29.

think there has to be an understanding that this was a UK

:46:30.:46:33.

wide vote. The UK is the member state. Foreign affairs is reserved

:46:34.:46:37.

to the UK. Even Nicola Sturgeon acknowledged that before the

:46:38.:46:40.

campaign because she was down in England is on TV debates in England

:46:41.:46:44.

speaking to people across the UK about the boat we were all taking

:46:45.:46:49.

part in. The bottom line here is, there is a bottom line here, if

:46:50.:46:56.

Theresa May's governments ignores your views on Brexit and what you

:46:57.:47:03.

would like to see and ignores the Scottish Government's views and

:47:04.:47:05.

implements Brexit, there is absolutely nothing, for example, if

:47:06.:47:10.

they implement the hard Brexit that Liam Fox once, there is absolutely

:47:11.:47:14.

nothing either you or Nicola Sturgeon can do about it. This is

:47:15.:47:19.

just blather. The prime minister has been clear about that just this

:47:20.:47:22.

morning, that she is not talking about a soft Brexit are hard Brexit

:47:23.:47:26.

but getting the best deal. That has to be a bespoke deal because this

:47:27.:47:30.

has never happened before. I country has never left the EU. We will be

:47:31.:47:33.

making sure it negotiations start from Britain's best interests. But

:47:34.:47:37.

this isn't about my will Nicola Sturgeon's will this is about the

:47:38.:47:42.

will of 17.5 million across the United Kingdom. I wasn't one of

:47:43.:47:46.

those people but there were 1 million people in Scotland were.

:47:47.:47:51.

Politicians have a choice. This is important. They have a choice to

:47:52.:47:55.

make. Even if it went against them, as it did with me. I was a strong

:47:56.:47:59.

supporter of the remaining campaign. You either go off and a half or try

:48:00.:48:02.

to make this work and implement the will of the people. I'm working hard

:48:03.:48:09.

to sit down with people from across the sectors, across Scotland, what

:48:10.:48:14.

they need and what they want out of the European Union. By making sure I

:48:15.:48:18.

am doing my darndest to make that happen. There are clearly very

:48:19.:48:24.

different views within the cabinets. Some, like Philip Hammond, or

:48:25.:48:29.

perhaps closer to your review. People Fox are not those to your

:48:30.:48:38.

view. You think Parliament should be given the decision, maybe not on

:48:39.:48:42.

Article 50 but at some point Parliament should have the right to

:48:43.:48:47.

say, we like Visteon we accept it or we don't? I will refer you back to

:48:48.:48:53.

the prime minister's interview this morning, when she started laying out

:48:54.:48:56.

the process that is involved and how Parliament is involved in that. The

:48:57.:49:00.

first of the repeal act that she unveiled today which shows the

:49:01.:49:03.

continuity that is going to happen after the day we do that. That gives

:49:04.:49:08.

stability to businesses. There will be other stages in this, too. I

:49:09.:49:13.

won't run through all of them today and we probably don't even know all

:49:14.:49:17.

of the stages. The idea that Parliament will be bypassed is a

:49:18.:49:21.

misnomer. As matters stand, if Parliament doesn't have a right to

:49:22.:49:25.

vote on the final package, if Liam Fox kept his way and is a hard

:49:26.:49:29.

Brexit, I know it's hypothetical but let's say there is, as matters

:49:30.:49:33.

stand, there is no formal process by which members of Parliament could

:49:34.:49:38.

vote against that. I think there also has to be an understanding that

:49:39.:49:43.

members of parliament voted by 6-1 to make this decision, the decision

:49:44.:49:50.

of the individual people of the UK. 6.5 million, more than in any other

:49:51.:49:53.

democratic lives were that we have ever had... I'm not suggesting

:49:54.:49:57.

Parliament should be able to overturn the referendum, but they

:49:58.:50:01.

should have the right to veto a final deal. If you were suggesting

:50:02.:50:07.

it is a yes or no, they could leave it, there is a suggestion you are

:50:08.:50:11.

saying that Parliament would be able to override the will of the UK

:50:12.:50:13.

people. Either that or I am misunderstanding the question. What

:50:14.:50:19.

I'm suggesting is if Liam Fox, for example, gets his way and we leave

:50:20.:50:24.

the EU and operate by WTO rules, this seems to be no point at which

:50:25.:50:27.

Parliament can say, we don't want bad, we agree with Ruth Davidson, we

:50:28.:50:32.

want is to have some relationship with the single market, to have some

:50:33.:50:34.

free movement of Labour. The like. The Minister has put that

:50:35.:50:48.

to one side. This will be a bespoke agreement that includes free

:50:49.:50:51.

movement of people and access to the single market and all of these

:50:52.:50:55.

issues that we will discuss that he has already stated on the record

:50:56.:50:58.

Julia and before today that there will be a role for parliament in

:50:59.:51:01.

that process. The first one that we talked about in terms of the

:51:02.:51:08.

timescale was... Did I misunderstand you, at you just said that to reason

:51:09.:51:11.

they made it clear that whatever agreement she comes to will include

:51:12.:51:17.

a free movement of labour? What I said was that negotiations will

:51:18.:51:20.

include the free movement of labour, they will include access to the free

:51:21.:51:24.

market, she said all of this this morning. On another subject, Damian

:51:25.:51:29.

Green the Work and Pensions Secretary announced that benefits

:51:30.:51:34.

retest for the chronically ill would be scrapped. Do you welcome that? I

:51:35.:51:42.

do, these are tests that were brought in and architected by the

:51:43.:51:45.

last Labour government who hired the company who is doing them, we have

:51:46.:51:49.

seen that there are significant problems with how they are carried

:51:50.:51:52.

out and personally I am pleased that when people have either degenerative

:51:53.:51:55.

conditions that they do not have to keep going back and we are able to

:51:56.:51:59.

make sure that there is medical grounds for that. Do you think they

:52:00.:52:05.

should follow-up by scrapping the Bedroom Tax? I think that is a

:52:06.:52:12.

decision for people in the other parts of the UK, obviously we have

:52:13.:52:15.

our own settlement here. Would you like to see them scrap the Bedroom

:52:16.:52:20.

Tax? I think there is a difference in terms of the way I would have

:52:21.:52:24.

done it if I had read them I would have got it in as a kind of late

:52:25.:52:28.

entry thing so it did not affect people who were already in the hole

:52:29.:52:31.

but for people who regulated goods to social housing because of course

:52:32.:52:36.

this already existed for housing benefits in private rented

:52:37.:52:38.

accommodation is so I would have though it's differently to how it

:52:39.:52:42.

was permitted. It does not exist in Scotland, if you support devolution

:52:43.:52:44.

you have to let people in other parts of the UK make their own

:52:45.:52:48.

decisions just as we expect to be able to make our own decisions here.

:52:49.:52:52.

There are big questions that we will be talking about in my speech about

:52:53.:52:56.

social justice, because there are lots of new powers over benefits and

:52:57.:52:59.

welfare coming to the Scottish Parliament, we will be doing a lot

:53:00.:53:01.

of discussion and investigation into how we can use them to help the most

:53:02.:53:07.

vulnerable in Scottish society. In publishing a paper today that shows

:53:08.:53:11.

some of the things we can already do with the powers we do have so it is

:53:12.:53:15.

not just topping about the symptoms of poverty... I understand what

:53:16.:53:23.

you're saying. You seem to be suggesting that he would quite like

:53:24.:53:27.

them to scrap the Bedroom Tax at least as it stands. What I'm seeing

:53:28.:53:32.

is I would have brought it in in a different way but it is a decision

:53:33.:53:36.

for people in other parts of the UK. I would like to talk about the paper

:53:37.:53:40.

we wanted, it is important that as an opposition we don't just say no

:53:41.:53:45.

to the government but that we also suggest improvements and

:53:46.:53:47.

alternatives. One of the things we're looking at is how we can

:53:48.:53:51.

intervene Elliott upstream to some of the big issues that cause poverty

:53:52.:53:55.

or vulnerability in our society, like addiction and family breakdown

:53:56.:53:58.

and how we can use the power of the Scottish Parliament already has two

:53:59.:54:04.

address that. We will let you get off. I am sure Boris John was to

:54:05.:54:07.

have copy the view now is that you have more confidence in him than you

:54:08.:54:10.

had before. Than ever before, yes. It could be a problem with

:54:11.:54:14.

the software or an administrative misunderstanding but either way it's

:54:15.:54:17.

causing farmers a lot of heartache. European Common Agricultural Policy

:54:18.:54:20.

payments in Scotland are in chaos leaving some without their

:54:21.:54:22.

subsidies, others with stop-gap loans and the Scottish Government

:54:23.:54:24.

in danger of facing a serious Joining me from our Inverness studio

:54:25.:54:26.

is the SNP MSP Stewart Stevenson, who sits on the Rural

:54:27.:54:33.

Economy Committee, Stewart Stevenson, you are supposed

:54:34.:54:52.

to pay money to farmers to the common agricultural policy and you

:54:53.:54:55.

make a mess of that and to compensate you give them loans as

:54:56.:54:59.

you make a mess of that. He could not make this up. The important

:55:00.:55:03.

point is that following the difficulties that have been with the

:55:04.:55:08.

IED system which have been acknowledged, that we put in place a

:55:09.:55:13.

way in which farmers can make sure they have money in the bank to keep

:55:14.:55:16.

their businesses going, and every single farmer has had the

:55:17.:55:22.

opportunity to take a loan. I believe a tiny handful have chosen

:55:23.:55:27.

not to. The bottom line is in the circumstances of the difficulties in

:55:28.:55:33.

the system, we have made sure that we have addressed the financial

:55:34.:55:37.

needs of farmers and nature that they have money to keep their

:55:38.:55:40.

businesses going. I think that is the right approach in these

:55:41.:55:43.

difficult circumstances, which the government has absolutely

:55:44.:55:49.

acknowledged stem from the IT system that we are responsible for. They

:55:50.:55:53.

are not responsible for computer glitches? This has been a shambles

:55:54.:55:59.

from start to finish, ten months on the still 576 farmers who have not

:56:00.:56:04.

been fully paid from last year, what we have got to understand is that

:56:05.:56:11.

even with giving a loan out for 80% of what they are entitled to hand

:56:12.:56:13.

the government said they will deliver it next month, that is one

:56:14.:56:18.

of before they should get all the money, so they will only get a loan

:56:19.:56:23.

of 80% next month, we must remember that 30% of farmers have an income

:56:24.:56:29.

of less than ?10,000 per year and with 80% of the subsidy, they are

:56:30.:56:34.

not getting ?6,000. That is a heck of a lot of money not to get when

:56:35.:56:40.

you are entitled to have it and there has been one disaster after

:56:41.:56:44.

another. I am astonished that this so-called computer glitch, it is

:56:45.:56:49.

costing ?117 million so far and it has been a complete shambles from

:56:50.:56:54.

beginning to end. What we want to do is call the government minister to

:56:55.:56:58.

Parliament next week and I will race is on the business bureau on

:56:59.:57:00.

Tuesday, with support from other business managers, to have him make

:57:01.:57:04.

a statement because we cannot have the system go on. Nobody is taking

:57:05.:57:11.

responsibility. It is about responsibility, isn't it? There are

:57:12.:57:15.

not huge numbers of people involved here and it is all very well saying

:57:16.:57:18.

it is a computer glitch but isn't it the responsibility of good

:57:19.:57:23.

government not to make excuses like that and to intervene where the

:57:24.:57:27.

problems emerge and to get it sorted out? Perhaps one can understand if

:57:28.:57:30.

it was a computer glitch this was all for just not paying the CAP

:57:31.:57:33.

payments but when you can't even make the loan payment which are

:57:34.:57:36.

supposed to replace the cap payment you can make, it is not good enough

:57:37.:57:42.

just to say it is all about technology. I am most certainly not

:57:43.:57:48.

saying it is all about technology and nor am I shedding the

:57:49.:57:51.

responsibility that there is for the IT system and its failure to work.

:57:52.:57:56.

The contractors have let the government down but ultimately the

:57:57.:57:59.

government has to address that, but let's be clear, there is money in

:58:00.:58:05.

every farmer's bank account from the Scottish Government. By the job of

:58:06.:58:10.

October we are expecting the last of the applications from farmers to the

:58:11.:58:15.

end and I think it is worth looking at what the National farmers union

:58:16.:58:18.

themselves said in the middle of September on the subject, they

:58:19.:58:25.

continued to say that it is unsatisfactory from the IT system

:58:26.:58:29.

and they said that the government has taken the action necessary to

:58:30.:58:34.

make sure that the rule economy is supported by money from the

:58:35.:58:37.

government and they have welcomed that. -- the rural economy. That is

:58:38.:58:42.

the right response when you have a difficult situation with our IT

:58:43.:58:45.

system that you nonetheless make sure that money is getting to

:58:46.:58:48.

farmers bank accounts and that is what the government has done.

:58:49.:58:54.

I take your point about the incomes of farmers, but we are topping about

:58:55.:58:59.

subsidies here and if people are getting 80% of what they would

:59:00.:59:03.

otherwise get, I mean OK, it might not be ideal but it is hardly that

:59:04.:59:10.

big a deal is it? It is a huge deal especially for the third of farmers

:59:11.:59:14.

whose income is less than ?10,000, and then not getting ?6,000. How

:59:15.:59:18.

many farmers are we talking about in that situation? One third of them,

:59:19.:59:25.

30% of the 80,000 so well over 6000 farmers. The point I'm here is this

:59:26.:59:30.

subsidy system is a ridiculous system we have at the moment, the

:59:31.:59:35.

average subsidy per farmer to farm business is ?31,000 on average. The

:59:36.:59:41.

farm income on average is ?23,000, sold most farmers actually make a

:59:42.:59:46.

loss and if they did not have the subsidy they would have a negative

:59:47.:59:52.

income. It is a ridiculous system. ?3 million goes to one farmer under

:59:53.:59:56.

the scheme, it is a stupid system and the person responsible is

:59:57.:00:03.

furnished viewing. -- Fergus Ewing. What is it you want Stewart

:00:04.:00:07.

Stevenson and his colleagues to do? You're complaining but what

:00:08.:00:11.

precisely what then to do? What I want them to do is make sure that

:00:12.:00:14.

the actual systems that they have run properly, but more importantly I

:00:15.:00:19.

have said several times to Fergus Ewing and Stewart on the committee

:00:20.:00:23.

as well has heard me say this, but what we should be doing is looking

:00:24.:00:28.

to renew the system. When we leave the EU the entire responsibility for

:00:29.:00:31.

this falls on Fergus Ewing's shoulders and they said to him in

:00:32.:00:36.

four years' time you will have the responsibility to pay this money out

:00:37.:00:39.

of farmers in subsidies and the subsidy system we have now is wrong.

:00:40.:00:43.

We have one farmer getting ?3 million in subsidies well one third

:00:44.:00:47.

of farmers are not less than ?10,000 that he will not do it. I have asked

:00:48.:00:53.

them to set up a committee of specialists to look at the options

:00:54.:00:57.

for the future and he is burying his head in the sand. This is indicative

:00:58.:01:01.

of the whole process we have seen with cap payments. It will go on to

:01:02.:01:08.

the future. You're shaking your head Stewart, presumably the Scottish

:01:09.:01:10.

Government will set up given Brexit and all the rest of it, you are

:01:11.:01:12.

going to set up the kind and all the rest of it, you are

:01:13.:01:15.

committee that my grumbles is calling on? You'll have to. 100 days

:01:16.:01:22.

after the Brexit forward we have no answers from the UK, and very little

:01:23.:01:26.

can proceed until we get some but what I'm hearing from Mike rumbles

:01:27.:01:31.

is an indication that he wants to abolish the subsidy system

:01:32.:01:33.

altogether. How on earth is that going to help those farmers who are

:01:34.:01:42.

under a living wage? What he is -- that is what he's saying and that is

:01:43.:01:44.

not what this government is doing what the government also doing is

:01:45.:01:48.

addressing the requirements of the large farmers... And failing. And

:01:49.:01:55.

ensuring the most active farmers get the money. I'm sorry to cut you off

:01:56.:01:58.

but we are pressed for time. Let's go back to our top story today

:01:59.:02:00.

and we're joined by the Scottish minister for Brexit

:02:01.:02:03.

negotiations, Mike Russell, Mike Russell, what do you make of

:02:04.:02:20.

these two announcements to has made today about the repeal legislation

:02:21.:02:24.

and triggering article 50 by March next year? Neither take as much

:02:25.:02:31.

further forward, there has to be read your legislation, it is the

:02:32.:02:34.

only way you could have done this and everyone has an honour for a

:02:35.:02:37.

while. The only question was the timing of the legislation.

:02:38.:02:39.

Repeatedly the UK Government has said that the first part of next

:02:40.:02:44.

year will have article 50, the reader may knows that March is in

:02:45.:02:48.

the first part of next year so that is not take as much further forward

:02:49.:02:51.

either. Do you feel from the discussions you have been having

:02:52.:02:57.

that you are any clearer as to what Brexit will actually mean? We have

:02:58.:03:00.

had Ruth Davidson of the programme talking about how she would like to

:03:01.:03:02.

see some relationship with the single market, she supported free

:03:03.:03:07.

movement of labour and she wants to see passport in for financial

:03:08.:03:11.

services. And he had any indication that any of these things are

:03:12.:03:18.

possible? Ruiz has become a born-again Brexit fan, she has

:03:19.:03:23.

kissed and made up with the Brexit is, and I do not think we are much

:03:24.:03:27.

further forward in terms of the port and issues for the people of

:03:28.:03:30.

Scotland in the area of outstanding now. We don't all about free

:03:31.:03:34.

movement of labour or the people who are here presently will be allowed

:03:35.:03:37.

to stay. That is a vitally important and could be decided today. That

:03:38.:03:40.

announcement should have come from the Tory party conference because it

:03:41.:03:44.

would have said some people's minds at rest. The Scottish Government is

:03:45.:03:47.

being clear about what it wants to see, what we are not hearing back

:03:48.:03:52.

any preferences but we are hearing a lot of things being rolled out by

:03:53.:03:58.

rumour and there have been a lot of worries about passports. That is

:03:59.:04:05.

vital for jobs in the private sector in Scotland. Today's announcers are

:04:06.:04:13.

designed to pacify the Tory right wing. There has been much

:04:14.:04:17.

consultation between the British and Scottish Government over Brexit and

:04:18.:04:21.

you have been involved in some of that but the fact is, or is it, do

:04:22.:04:27.

you have any formal rule? Do you have any ability to see on any

:04:28.:04:32.

issue, look, this is important for us the Scottish Government, that has

:04:33.:04:36.

to be part of any Brexit steel. Or do you feel that on anything you say

:04:37.:04:40.

that the British government will just say thank you very much real

:04:41.:04:46.

advice no thank you. We're too early to say definitively what the

:04:47.:04:49.

situation is. Those meetings are continuing and there is another

:04:50.:04:53.

plenary meeting this month. There is some small print in the government

:04:54.:04:56.

announcement today which seems to imply that we will be asked in the

:04:57.:04:59.

announcement today which seems to devolved administrations for the

:05:00.:05:02.

ideas and views, that is not consultation and is certainly not be

:05:03.:05:06.

to reason a full engagement and involvement that she promised. So we

:05:07.:05:10.

have to keep arguing for a pressing for an insisting upon the

:05:11.:05:12.

involvement of the Scottish Government and the other devolved

:05:13.:05:17.

administrations in the meat of these matters. What do you mean by that?

:05:18.:05:23.

That are clearly things that are fully devolved matters within

:05:24.:05:28.

Scotland, the fishing industry is one and agriculture as even talking

:05:29.:05:31.

about is another one, there are huge issues in education and the

:05:32.:05:35.

environment, issues that the Scottish Government deals with

:05:36.:05:37.

anti-Scottish ballad deals with. We have to make sure that we are

:05:38.:05:40.

involved in the negotiations of those matters, we can be a gushy. We

:05:41.:05:45.

are not hearing that so we have to have a structure up to Article 50

:05:46.:05:47.

that develops Are you saying you want to veto or

:05:48.:06:01.

that you won the Scottish Government to be involved in the act one

:06:02.:06:06.

negotiations with the EU? Well, there are issues which are issues

:06:07.:06:09.

for the Scottish Government and not issues with the UK Government. A

:06:10.:06:14.

piece of legislation such as what Theresa May is promising, this great

:06:15.:06:17.

repeal act, will require the approval of the Scottish Parliament.

:06:18.:06:21.

A legislative consent motion will be required. The Scottish Government,

:06:22.:06:26.

Scottish Parliament, has a formal role better. We need to make sure we

:06:27.:06:29.

are in there discussing these matters, because on what we are

:06:30.:06:34.

hearing so far, the matters of great importance, three movements, a whole

:06:35.:06:38.

range of matters on education and environment... It doesn't make me

:06:39.:06:43.

think our vital interests are being protected. Will you vote against the

:06:44.:06:49.

repeal bill in the Scottish Parliament? There is presently a

:06:50.:06:52.

majority against it. We have had three votes in the past three weeks

:06:53.:06:55.

on European matters and all have been in favour of the single market.

:06:56.:07:00.

And against what appears to be the current position of the hard

:07:01.:07:03.

Brexiteer 's who were pushing Theresa May is trying to force her

:07:04.:07:07.

into the camp. At the present moment, that would appear to be the

:07:08.:07:10.

case. Thank you very much for rushing to join us. Now it's time to

:07:11.:07:14.

look at what is coming up in the I'm joined by Andy Maciver,

:07:15.:07:19.

who is a former head of communications for

:07:20.:07:22.

the Conservatives, and is now Director of the PR

:07:23.:07:23.

firm Message Matters. And by the journalist and writer

:07:24.:07:25.

Katie Grant. There was great kerfuffle a few

:07:26.:07:39.

months ago when Nicola Sturgeon suggested that the Scottish

:07:40.:07:42.

Parliament could perhaps block Brexit by refusing to back a motion.

:07:43.:07:47.

From what Mike Russell suggested, it looks like this situation has arisen

:07:48.:07:51.

quicker than we thought. I thought it would be much more equivocal

:07:52.:07:55.

about bad. It's a very difficult situation to decide what to do about

:07:56.:07:59.

that particular motion. I'm not convinced that they actually well.

:08:00.:08:02.

It's a very delicate balance of them. He said they probably would.

:08:03.:08:09.

Yes, I'm quite surprised by that. I'm not sure that's what Nicola

:08:10.:08:12.

Sturgeon would've said. The delicate bouncers standing up for their

:08:13.:08:19.

interests, the interest of the voters, but also doing what appears

:08:20.:08:24.

to be the right thing by the UK. And helping the will of the UK people

:08:25.:08:29.

into practice. It's a difficult one. If Mike Russell does what Mike

:08:30.:08:36.

into practice. It's a difficult one. Russell as suggested, I'm sure the

:08:37.:08:40.

British Parliament can override that, but it is something of a

:08:41.:08:46.

concert usual crisis. If you got the Scottish Parliament saying, see that

:08:47.:08:52.

repeal bill? No. There would be a constitutional crisis and I don't

:08:53.:08:55.

know how it would be resolved, but the Scottish Government needs to

:08:56.:09:00.

remember that... I was voting remain but over 1 million Scots did vote to

:09:01.:09:05.

leave. They need to be aware of Scotland as a whole and not just of

:09:06.:09:09.

their... I know most Scots voted to remain, but we didn't buy every

:09:10.:09:17.

single Scot. The Scottish Government in these negotiations needs to

:09:18.:09:19.

represent the whole of Scotland are not just their own narrow interests.

:09:20.:09:27.

But they can say we're representing that they would say, you can never

:09:28.:09:31.

represent all the people, all the time, and over 60% voted to stay in

:09:32.:09:35.

the EU, so we are presenting the people of Scotland and not just SNP

:09:36.:09:40.

support. Is going to be very difficult because they will ban had

:09:41.:09:43.

to sell bad as somehow being a positive when it will look like a

:09:44.:09:48.

large negative. Everybody knows that we are in the UK and the UK voted to

:09:49.:09:54.

leave, so it is a difficult thing to sell. The Scottish rural and saying

:09:55.:09:58.

they're going to veto it and therefore what happens next? The

:09:59.:10:02.

race debate over whether the legislative consent motion is

:10:03.:10:06.

actually required. Some constitutional experts say it would

:10:07.:10:09.

not. It's worth noting that not everybody would agree that the

:10:10.:10:13.

legislative consent motion is required. You can sense of

:10:14.:10:18.

frustration. In a sense, I'm not sure if it's fair to say that David

:10:19.:10:19.

Davis looks but all this talk of how sure if it's fair to say that David

:10:20.:10:25.

she will be making sure Boris Johnson does this, that and the

:10:26.:10:27.

other and will stand up for Scotland. In a formal sense, neither

:10:28.:10:37.

the Scottish Government nor Ruth Davidson, nor indeed members of

:10:38.:10:39.

the Scottish Government nor Ruth Parliament, seem to have any formal

:10:40.:10:42.

role in this. If they have, we don't know what it is yet. I think the

:10:43.:10:47.

fact that we don't know what it is yet his person to the debate. Ruth

:10:48.:10:51.

Davidson has been a lot stronger than a lot of people in sticking to

:10:52.:10:54.

her guns as what you might call a soft Brexiteer. I think Mike Russell

:10:55.:10:58.

was probable quite unfair on her in saying she was a born-again

:10:59.:11:04.

Brexiteer. I Dabiq she is. -- I don't think she is. If anything, the

:11:05.:11:12.

soft- hard line which is unhelpful. It will be negotiation based on

:11:13.:11:17.

individual circumstances. The trouble is, it's all becoming a bit

:11:18.:11:23.

Clintonesque. Bill, not Hillary! It depends what you mean by social

:11:24.:11:29.

market. For example, on this issue of past voting or financial

:11:30.:11:35.

services, asset managers in Scotland, by having a business set

:11:36.:11:40.

up in one European union country, you're automatically allowed to do

:11:41.:11:45.

business in other. I have not heard any suggestion that it would be

:11:46.:11:49.

possible to keep that without, and let's get away from talking about

:11:50.:11:53.

what the supermarket means, but without accepting the European Court

:11:54.:11:57.

of Justice, free movement of Labour. I've never had any suggestion. It's

:11:58.:12:02.

a very confusing issue because is a difference between regulation and

:12:03.:12:06.

trade. The past porting issues regulation issues, not trade issues.

:12:07.:12:11.

Membership of the single market is also different from access to the

:12:12.:12:15.

civil market. In all of these discussions and debates that you

:12:16.:12:18.

see, it's very difficult to get into that level of detail and difficult

:12:19.:12:21.

to understand what is actually being sad. I'm not sure that's entirely as

:12:22.:12:26.

the case. I've seen some arguments that suggest that past porting is

:12:27.:12:29.

possible based on it being a regulatory issue, if the regulars

:12:30.:12:32.

re-routing in this country is exactly the same as in EU countries

:12:33.:12:38.

which it might be. On a slightly different subject, we are talking

:12:39.:12:44.

earlier about how Theresa May will want this party conference about the

:12:45.:12:48.

size that this is no longer the David Cameron government. This isn't

:12:49.:12:54.

the Bollington club running things any more. Do you think it's

:12:55.:12:58.

important for her to do that, because Labour will see, and they

:12:59.:13:03.

ran a party with a broadcast after their conferences week saying,

:13:04.:13:07.

actually, this is just the same old Tories. I think it will happen

:13:08.:13:12.

anyway. She has a different manner from David Cameron, she is a woman.

:13:13.:13:18.

Brexit, which is obviously a failure in some ways of David Cameron, is

:13:19.:13:21.

written all over the conference whatever she tries to say about

:13:22.:13:26.

domestic... And they've already said they will get rid of George Osborne.

:13:27.:13:34.

IDC has already made... It's a bit lame of Labour to say it's just a

:13:35.:13:37.

continuation of the same old, same old. It's clearly not. Nothing that

:13:38.:13:43.

Theresa May has done or said have looked like a continuation. I think

:13:44.:13:46.

that's a bit of a lame argument. I think her manner is also different.

:13:47.:13:53.

She's much more formal, is used to meet she speaks in a different way.

:13:54.:14:00.

She's not as Pali, there won't be so much chilling. Thank you both

:14:01.:14:01.

I'll be back at the same time next week.

:14:02.:14:06.

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