25/09/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


25/09/2016

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer are joined by Lord Prescott, Luke Akehurst of LabourList and Labour NEC member-elect Rhea Wolfson.


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Transcript


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Welcome to Liverpool where the Labour Party has decided

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who its next leader should be - he's the same one they had before.

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So is it onwards and upwards for Jeremy Corbyn's Labour?

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Morning folks and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

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I am therefore, conference, delighted to declare Jeremy Corbyn

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elected as leader of the Labour Party.

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Jeremy Corbyn says he wants to "wipe the slate clean".

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But can Labour MPs serve under a man they said they had no confidence in?

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We look at where the next battles are likely to be fought and speak

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to one peer who's quitting the party in protest.

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Jeremy has no leadership qualities, whatsoever.

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His little group like him and they think he is the Messiah

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but he will never become the leader -

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He's been "getting down" at party conferences for more than 50 years -

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we'll ask John Prescott if he's optimistic about the next 50 years.

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David Cameron felt "let down" by Theresa May

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because of her lukewarm support for Remain during the

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Was she a secret brexiteer or just manoeuvring for the top job?

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Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland -

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I'll be asking Kezia Dugdale what she REALLY thinks of Jeremy Corbyn?

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And, all parties agree it's unfair - but what will replace Council Tax?

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And we tried to oust them from the programme -

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but they're back by popular demand - so with me - the best

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and the brightest political panel in the business Steve Richards,

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Rachel Shabi and Tom Newton-Dunn, who'll be tweeting

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David Cameron became intensely frustrated

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at Theresa May's unwillingness to declare her intentions

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That's according to a new book by Mr Cameron's former spin doctor.

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The book by Craig Oliver is called Unleashing Demons:

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The Inside Story Of Brexit, and is being serialised in Mail

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The book talks about Mrs May's "submarine strategy

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Mr Oliver also writes that, "Her sphinx-like approach

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At one point a leading Remain campaigner asks: "Are we sure May's

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Oliver also makes claims around Boris Johnson's

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He claims Mr Johnson texted Mr Cameron after

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saying Brexit would be "crushed like a toad beneath the harrow".

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And claims the new Foreign Secretary had a last-minute wobble over

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backing a vote to Leave the EU, sending a text which read

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There we go. We know the feeling! This is a Prime Minister of which we

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know very little. What does this tell us about her? What it tells us

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is that Craig Oliver David Cameron don't like her very much, that's the

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only thing we can be 100% sure of, quite frankly. We knew she was a

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submarine throughout the campaign and I remember discussing it during

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the campaign on your programme. What we are debating is the motive, why

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does she stay hidden? Speaking to Downing Street people this morning,

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they are furious. They say Craig Oliver would be better writing

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fiction than fact. They are disputing a lot of what Craig Oliver

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says but of course he was there. It comes down to what you think of

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Theresa May. Why was she so quiet? Why would she not come up behind

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Cameron? Was it a political thing because she wanted to be a PM or did

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she not believe what he was saying? What we know is she was always a

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reluctant Remainer and some people thought she was a secret Brexiteer.

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What with don't know is she was playing the part of a submarine. Was

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she quietly plotting for the leadership? That is the bit that is

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unclear. Yes, I mean, I think to a certain extent a lot of these things

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we did already know, you are right. But we didn't know the extent to

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which... I mean, this is a party which claims to love Britain and yet

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seems to make decisions on the basis of pure political gain. And once we

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see the machinations of that and the insights to that that seem to be

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exposed today in this book, the fact Theresa May was asked 13 times, the

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fact Boris Johnson... 13 times to? To step up and support Cameron. I

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missed that, 13 times she was asked? In fact, Boris Johnson less than a

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minute before making decisions sent a text to David Cameron saying he

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would come out in favour of Remain, shows how arbitrary, random and

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politically driven these decisions were. I think we should be asking

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them these questions every day. It is unforgivable they took the

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country to such a massive and catastrophic decision on the basis

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of such naked political gain. That has never happened in politics

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before! Perish the thought! I thought that because Mrs May played

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the part of reluctant Remainer she would annoy both sides, that the

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Leave campaign would be angry with her because she didn't jump to them

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and Remain side would be angry because she did nothing effective

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during the campaign and that would count her out from getting the

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leadership. How did I get that wrong? It certainly didn't have that

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effect. I think we can roughly work out what happened. A senior official

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at the Home Office who worked with Theresa May for a long time told me

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earlier this year, long before the referendum, and when people had

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declared, that he was 100% sure she would back Remain. He was a great

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admirer of hers and he said that was her view and that she would do that.

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So I think she was a Remainer. But as you say, she had doubts. She made

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Corbyn look evangelical on the issue. There is nothing

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contradictory about being in the end for Remain but harbouring leadership

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ambitions. They did try to get her to do more, I know they did. But the

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Remain campaign was also ambiguous about the issue of immigration and

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the group Dunne the degree to which they wanted to go with it, they

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wanted to go on the economy. I don't think they pressed her the heart of

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the dominant force in the campaign because they wanted it to be more

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about the economy than immigration. So reluctant Remainer, low profile

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for all kinds of reasons, one of which was the Remain campaign didn't

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want immigration to overwhelm the economy. It did in the end. They

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calculated that wrong. The Remain campaign got that wrong, not Theresa

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May. Have we known less about any Prime Minister in modern times than

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Theresa May? It's funny because we think we know her. I've interviewed

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her, you have interviewed her, we have seen her around the scene for

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20 years but we don't know precisely... We will get a load more

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about this at Tory conference. Is that coming up? Have got to go there

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too? One day we will leave Liverpool. People will see that as

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an opportunity to explain a bit more about her. River Lea, because we

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need to move on. We'll have a habit of overestimated and overanalysing

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Theresa May -- briefly. She could be a simple straightforward person who

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likes to tell the truth, ever thought about that? Never. It is

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tough to get to the top with people knowing who you are. Why would we

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want to leave Liverpool? Look over there, it is lovely. It was the

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result everyone expected. After almost three months

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of campaigning Labour have the same leader they had before -

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so can the slate really be wiped clean - as Jeremy Corbyn has urged -

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or will splits and divisions Adam Fleming has been watching

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events here in Liverpool unfolding. But it's been about our Labour

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family facing the future. He was the head of the family last

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week and he'll be the head So Labour has elected its new leader

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and is the old leader, So Labour has elected its new leader

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and it's the old leader, Jeremy Corbyn, winning this contest

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and winning by a slightly larger In his second victory speech in just

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over a year Jeremy Corbyn said Labour would fight the Government's

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plans to extend grammar I'm calling on Labour Party members

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all over the country to join us in a national campaign for inclusive

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education for all next Saturday. The Tories' plans for grammar school

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segregation of our children expose their divisive and damaging

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agenda for our country. But the big message

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to his party was this. We have much more in common

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than that which divides us. As far as I'm concerned let's wipe

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that slate clean from today and get on with the work we've got to do

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as a party together. Jezza escaped the cameras to go

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and celebrate with his allies. Where is the Jeremy

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Corbyn victory party There will be a number of victory

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parties, but the most important thing now is just

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bringing people together. So what Jeremy will be doing

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is going around all the different individual party receptions,

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the different regions and giving the same unity message,

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and he will be drinking, or having cups of tea,

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with everybody, all sides. As luck would have it we found

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a persistent Corbyn critic who had just been invited

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in for a friendly chat. I'm actually just going

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to see Jeremy Corbyn now. Oh, are you?

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Have a one-to-one chat? He asked me to see me

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so I'm going to see him. Can we come with you?

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Alas, I don't think he'll allow it. And we did, staking out

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their meeting at the leader's hotel. She didn't sound

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entirely convinced. It was fine.

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What happened? He wanted to talk to me because I'm

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the chair of the women's PLP. It's the right thing to do that

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Jeremy wanted to see people like me who have our own mandates

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within the PLP. I think that's

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the right thing to do. It's whether you listen and then

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change your actions that matters. Others were less polite on Twitter,

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posting pictures of their chopped He is hostile to America,

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he is hostile to business and he's And I'm the reverse on all those

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issues as well. This is a position,

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as Leader of The Opposition, where effectively you are in

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position to become the next You cannot become the Prime Minister

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of this country unless you appeal to the great population,

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and in particular middle England. And I think Jeremy has no

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leadership qualities whatsoever. Back at conference,

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they were setting up for a meeting Corbyn fans and Corbyn sceptics

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are deadlocked over reforms to the party, especially

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plans to revive elections The criticism doesn't matter

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here at the festival running alongside conference,

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organised by the pro-Corbyn They are just over the moon

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that they have managed to get their hero elected,

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not just once but twice. And we're joined now

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by the former Shadow Health Welcome back to the Sunday Politics.

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Tell me, what will go down in history as the most botched coup of

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2016? Will it be the uprising against President Erdogan in Turkey,

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or your efforts to unseat Mr Corbyn in the UK?

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You've started from completely the wrong premise, Andrew, to be honest.

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As much as you might read in the papers about a finely orchestrated

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plot and coo, what I know is I resigned at the end of June because

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I had concerns about Jeremy's capacity to lead the Labour Party. I

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was worried that in a very complicated situation that we find

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ourselves in after the results of the referendum he didn't have the

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capacity to develop the answers that the party needs. So there was a

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concerted effort to get rid of him. I resigned at the end of June. A

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number of my colleagues shared the sense of despair and there was

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clearly a vote of no-confidence in the Parliamentary Labour Party. At

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the point at which that happened and that the point at which Jeremy said

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he wasn't going to resign, they had to be a leadership contest. Why did

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there have to be? What was the point of it? You have left him stronger

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than ever. What we have done this is have a

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really important debate about the future of the Labour Party. It was

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important for members of parliament who with Jeremy day in and day out

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and who have had growing concerns over the last year to say we've got

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to change as a party. The next 12 months need to be better than the

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last 12 months. We need to appeal to the country. We need Jeremy to

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understand that if we are going to be a credible and effective

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opposition, and a government in waiting, then he actually needs to

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get his act together. So does he understand that now? I hope so but

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only time will tell. It may all be for nothing. You'll have to ask him

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the next time he comes on your show. You were the ones who sparked this

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process. Do you now have any doubt that he will lead Labour into the

:14:43.:14:47.

2020 election? Well, a week is a long time in politics, Andrew. Who

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knows when the next General Election will be? I said 2020, that is when

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it is scheduled to be but there could be a surprise but Labour would

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have to vote for that in the Commons. Let's assume it is 2020 and

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it is the full term. Are you in any doubt that Mr Corbyn will lead your

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party into that election? Watch Jeremy has got to do is prove he can

:15:09.:15:11.

unite the party and that he can craft a message that appeals to the

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country. I don't think anyone wants to continue the leadership contest

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of this summer. But what people like me are determined to do is to

:15:21.:15:25.

continue fighting for a Labour Party that speaks to and for the whole of

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the country, and one which is capable of winning the next General

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Election. So you do have some doubts? That is not what I said. We

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need to focus our efforts... I know what you said about your focus but

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it is a simple question, do you have doubts that he can win the next

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General Election? Jeremy needs to prove that he is a competent and

:15:48.:15:50.

capable Leader of the Opposition. You have said that, of course,

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everybody who is Leader of the Opposition must prove they are

:15:55.:15:57.

competent. It would seem from your inability to give a straight answer

:15:58.:16:01.

that you do have doubts that he will win, indeed you even seem to have

:16:02.:16:06.

doubts that he will lead your party into the next election. I have been

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honest and it would be quite strange for me having been so explicit over

:16:10.:16:13.

the summer to come onto your programme and say that overnight the

:16:14.:16:16.

concerns that I had expressed had evaporated. Clearly Jeremy is to be

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congratulated on winning for a second time and he won a clear

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victory. But because people have voted for him in the numbers that

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they have doesn't mean that somebody like me automatically changes my

:16:31.:16:34.

mind. There are a number of things that he could do to move the party

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forward. Give me the most important one. I think he needs to commit

:16:40.:16:43.

unequivocally to a majority of the Shadow Cabinet being elected by the

:16:44.:16:48.

Parliamentary Labour Party. MPs need a new top team to coalesce around.

:16:49.:16:53.

Jeremy has talked about extending an olive branches. Is talked about

:16:54.:16:58.

wiping the slate clean. The time for words is over. -- he has talked. The

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time for that is over. He needs to say one thing that would show his

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willingness to compromise. A minority of the Shadow Cabinet

:17:13.:17:14.

should be elected by the Parliamentary Labour Party? --

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majority. That is the first one. There are other ideas about how the

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cabinet should be selected. Do you believe he will do that? He's been

:17:30.:17:34.

playing for time in the NEC. What would be useful is in the 24 hours

:17:35.:17:38.

following his election is for him to show that he has learned from the

:17:39.:17:42.

last 12 months and an elected Shadow Cabinet would be one way of doing

:17:43.:17:47.

that. I also think... Can I just ask, why would he do that? His

:17:48.:17:52.

support, his constituency, if I could put it that way, is the

:17:53.:17:55.

membership in the country. Particularly the new members, who

:17:56.:18:01.

gave him 85% of their votes. He knows the PLP cannot stand him. So

:18:02.:18:05.

why would he hand the power to choose his Shadow Cabinet to that

:18:06.:18:08.

part of the Labour Party which likes him least?

:18:09.:18:13.

I think you are characterising the Parliamentary Labour Party

:18:14.:18:20.

incorrectly, Andrew. Jeremy needs to build a team in Parliament in order

:18:21.:18:25.

to fulfil the basic functions of a parliamentary opposition. The basic

:18:26.:18:28.

duties parliamentary opposition cannot be carried out if you don't

:18:29.:18:34.

have a team. Clearly people were concerned about the direction of

:18:35.:18:37.

travel over the past year. We've been concerned about dreadful

:18:38.:18:41.

results in local elections, we've been concerned about the inability

:18:42.:18:49.

to go out and really make the case strongly for us staying in the EU.

:18:50.:18:54.

If Jeremy wants to be a strong and effective opposition, she needs --

:18:55.:19:04.

he needs to be Parliament... All of us need to behave with maturity and

:19:05.:19:08.

humility going forward. I think there's some options here that he

:19:09.:19:13.

could be exploring. All right. If he doesn't follow your advice and if he

:19:14.:19:17.

sticks with the leader largely appointing the Shadow Cabinet, many

:19:18.:19:22.

would say if it was good enough for Ed Miliband to do that it should be

:19:23.:19:26.

good enough for Jeremy Corbyn to do that, if he continues along that

:19:27.:19:30.

route, should centrist MPs like yourself serve in that Shadow

:19:31.:19:36.

Cabinet? I won't be serving in that Shadow Cabinet. I have been explicit

:19:37.:19:40.

in my view this summer, as I've already said to you, they haven't

:19:41.:19:44.

changed overnight simply because Jeremy Paris been elected. Can you

:19:45.:19:51.

just explain, given... I'm not sure what else he has to do. He's won two

:19:52.:19:58.

leadership elections by massive majorities, the second one even

:19:59.:20:02.

bigger than the first. He is clearly the choice of the party in the

:20:03.:20:08.

country. Why would you not join his Shadow Cabinet? Because as I said in

:20:09.:20:12.

the last couple of months, and I'm sorry to say this, but my

:20:13.:20:15.

experiences during that time were that it was dysfunctional and I

:20:16.:20:19.

think behaviours do have to change in order for the Parliamentary

:20:20.:20:23.

Labour Party and the Shadow Cabinet to be a really effective opposition.

:20:24.:20:29.

I think I can best serve the Labour Party and my constituents from the

:20:30.:20:34.

backbenches. If we know how this works... If I were to return to the

:20:35.:20:37.

front bench, in a couple of weeks' time you would be saying to me,

:20:38.:20:41.

Heidi Alexander, you said all of those things over the summer, have

:20:42.:20:45.

you now changed your mind? I don't think that's good for anyone. Would

:20:46.:20:51.

you advise like-minded MPs to do the same, not to join Mr Corbyn's Shadow

:20:52.:20:56.

Cabinet? I think every member of Parliament will ultimately take

:20:57.:20:59.

their own decisions. Would you advise them or just leave them to

:21:00.:21:05.

their own devices? I think if Jeremy commits to having the majority of

:21:06.:21:08.

the Shadow Cabinet elected by the Parliamentary Labour Party, then for

:21:09.:21:12.

some people that might be the right thing to do for them. You backed

:21:13.:21:18.

Owen Smith in this election campaign. If there were a general

:21:19.:21:23.

fear among MPs like yourself that Labour is drifting to father left to

:21:24.:21:27.

be electable for the country as a whole, why if that was the case did

:21:28.:21:33.

Owen Smith not attack a single domestic policy of Jeremy Corbyn's?

:21:34.:21:38.

I think what Owen did throughout the campaign was actually moved beyond

:21:39.:21:40.

the slogans. That's the problem we've had in the last year. Jeremy

:21:41.:21:45.

Thompson about investing ?500 billion in a capital investment

:21:46.:21:49.

programme but has absolutely no idea where that's coming from. -- Jeremy

:21:50.:21:52.

Thompson bout that. -- Jeremy talks about that. Owen

:21:53.:22:03.

Smith is honest and says we would have to borrow. That's what Jeremy

:22:04.:22:09.

Corbyn says! Actually, it's quite different to what Jeremy Corbyn and'

:22:10.:22:14.

John McDonald have been saying. If the fear was drifting to the left

:22:15.:22:21.

and making the party unelectable... It was mainly about, we're just as

:22:22.:22:26.

left wing as Mr Corbyn but we are more unelectable! You didn't have

:22:27.:22:29.

any major policy differences with the leader! I think we did,

:22:30.:22:35.

actually. We spoke about the EU referendum and our commitment and

:22:36.:22:38.

our belief that the British people should have a say on the final

:22:39.:22:44.

Brexit deal, either in a second referendum or at the general

:22:45.:22:48.

election. There were differences around areas of defence policy as

:22:49.:22:54.

well. Domestic policy was my original question. I understand the

:22:55.:23:00.

difference on defence. It's clear that the party membership has

:23:01.:23:06.

changed. Revolution may be too strong a word, but there is a clear

:23:07.:23:09.

difference between the new members who have come in and those who were

:23:10.:23:13.

party members at the election last year and in May of 2015. What would

:23:14.:23:18.

be wrong for these new members to say we would like Labour MPs who

:23:19.:23:25.

more reflect our values, our positions, our policy is that we

:23:26.:23:29.

want to see implemented. What would be wrong with that? I think the

:23:30.:23:32.

Labour Party is quite divided at the moment and we should be honest about

:23:33.:23:38.

that. This is a searing revelation you're giving me this morning (!)

:23:39.:23:43.

Parties change, your party has been reinvigorated with a lot of young,

:23:44.:23:49.

new people coming in. What would be wrong with them saying actually, I

:23:50.:23:52.

would like to have an MP represent me who is more in tune with what

:23:53.:23:57.

I've signed up for? I'm not sure it's really about that, to be

:23:58.:24:01.

honest. My own experience in my constituency, someone who is a

:24:02.:24:05.

hard-working member of Parliament, I've spoken to a lot of those new

:24:06.:24:09.

members who value the work that I do in my constituency but some of whom

:24:10.:24:13.

have taken the decision clearly to vote for Jeremy still. We should

:24:14.:24:17.

remember that since Jeremy Maclin lost the election, 80,000 people

:24:18.:24:22.

joined between then and the freeze date of the 12th of January, so

:24:23.:24:29.

there are 80,000 people who had by and large joint because of Jeremy

:24:30.:24:32.

Vine who had not yet had the opportunity to vote for him. I

:24:33.:24:41.

understand that. Are you in trouble yourself? I hope I'm not but I know

:24:42.:24:45.

there are people who are agitating against it. What do you think when

:24:46.:24:53.

you see Diane Abbott doing that job? I think Diane Abbott has one of the

:24:54.:24:57.

biggest and most responsible jobs in Parliament. I think that she needs a

:24:58.:25:04.

team around her to actually do that job effectively. The only way she

:25:05.:25:08.

will get that team is if Jeremy agrees, I think, to Shadow Cabinet

:25:09.:25:14.

elections. That is a point that has come through loud and clear. Heidi

:25:15.:25:15.

Alexander, thank you. So, Labour MPs who prompted this

:25:16.:25:21.

leadership contest have lost the argument and failed to persuade

:25:22.:25:23.

Labour Party members and supporters But can centrist Labour MPs use

:25:24.:25:26.

the party machinery to take The National Executive Committee

:25:27.:25:29.

is the Labour Party's ruling body. Win control of the NEC and you win

:25:30.:25:37.

control of the beating Since Jeremy Corbyn

:25:38.:25:40.

first became leader, there has been a fine balance

:25:41.:25:47.

on the NEC between his loyalists In anticipation of his re-election,

:25:48.:25:50.

the deputy leader Tom Watson has recently been squaring up

:25:51.:25:59.

to Mr Corbyn in the latest The committee has 33 members

:26:00.:26:01.

representing local parties, unions, Going into the party's conference,

:26:02.:26:05.

the NEC looks to have tipped slightly in the leader's favour,

:26:06.:26:11.

with 18 Corbyn-leaning members Although one or two of these

:26:12.:26:14.

could tilt either way The pro-Corbyn block has been

:26:15.:26:18.

boosted by two new members. Rhea Wolfson and Claudia Webbe,

:26:19.:26:26.

who will replace two However, the NEC recently agreed

:26:27.:26:30.

a rule change that could allow Scottish Labour

:26:31.:26:35.

leader Kezia Dugdale and Welsh First Minister Carwyn

:26:36.:26:39.

Jones, both hostile to Mr Corbyn, Tom Watson is also leading the move

:26:40.:26:41.

to restore elections to the Shadow Cabinet,

:26:42.:26:48.

a plan overwhelmingly The Shadow Cabinet currently picks

:26:49.:26:55.

three of its own to sit on the NEC, currently two of the three,

:26:56.:27:08.

Jon Trickett and Rebecca The other, Jonathan Ashworth,

:27:09.:27:15.

is a Corbyn sceptic. If Labour MPs were allowed to elect

:27:16.:27:18.

people to the Shadow Cabinet it could result in more centrists

:27:19.:27:21.

on the NEC. Meanwhile, Mr Corbyn is promoting

:27:22.:27:23.

the idea of giving ordinary party members and trade unions more

:27:24.:27:26.

say on the committee. Control of the NEC could allow

:27:27.:27:28.

Jeremy Corbyn and his allies to change the rules for future

:27:29.:27:30.

leadership elections, which would make it almost

:27:31.:27:32.

impossible for MPs and MEPs to stop another left-wing candidate making

:27:33.:27:35.

a future bid for the leadership. And the move perhaps most feared

:27:36.:27:37.

by MPs, a mandatory reselection We're joined now by Rhea Wolfson -

:27:38.:27:51.

a Jeremy Corbyn supporter who was recently elected to the NEC

:27:52.:27:53.

and takes up her seat at the end of the week -

:27:54.:27:56.

and by Luke Akehurst who supported Owen Smith

:27:57.:27:59.

in the leadership election. It is very finely balanced. The

:28:00.:28:19.

figures I would have would be 16 members that clearly support Corbyn

:28:20.:28:26.

and maybe 17 that don't. Do you agree with that? Yes, I think it is

:28:27.:28:35.

very finely balanced. With the recent elections, with Jeremy Corbyn

:28:36.:28:41.

supporters winning all those seeds, if not tipping the balance. What

:28:42.:28:46.

about this decision to appoint Scottish and Welsh representatives

:28:47.:28:49.

to the NEC? I understand as it stands at the moment that they would

:28:50.:28:53.

be appointed by the leaders of the Scottish and Welsh Labour parties.

:28:54.:28:57.

In other words, appointed by Labour sceptics. Will that switch the

:28:58.:29:02.

balance more against Mr Corbyn? On its own merits it's a good thing

:29:03.:29:06.

because it is an obvious gap that there hasn't been Scottish and Welsh

:29:07.:29:12.

representation, but if you look at the front is in those two countries,

:29:13.:29:16.

it probably wouldn't be hugely helpful to him. What would you think

:29:17.:29:22.

of that? I agree it probably would change the balance of power. I'm

:29:23.:29:25.

really disappointed with how this has come about and I think it's

:29:26.:29:29.

incredibly important to have elected Scottish and Welsh representative.

:29:30.:29:37.

So you think that if we do have Scottish and Welsh representatives,

:29:38.:29:40.

they should be elected by the membership in Scotland and Wales?

:29:41.:29:44.

Absolutely. It's not an interim think is not as if we're moving

:29:45.:29:48.

towards having better representation, it's actually taking

:29:49.:29:52.

an incredibly important issue of the table. During the Commons review,

:29:53.:29:58.

the moderate wing of the party actually put forward proposals that

:29:59.:30:03.

would have guaranteed members on the NEC LX did buy one member one vote

:30:04.:30:08.

from each nation and region of the UK and we didn't manage to get that

:30:09.:30:12.

through and in fact the left of the party opposed it at the time. Or is

:30:13.:30:16.

it going to happen, the Scottish and Welsh wraps being appointed? I

:30:17.:30:22.

understand there may be attempt to overturn it this week on the

:30:23.:30:26.

conference floor. I think that's probably one of the more interesting

:30:27.:30:28.

things that will happen this week, it will probably go to a vote on

:30:29.:30:34.

conference floor. I'm probably reasonably confident at least on the

:30:35.:30:37.

side of the constituency delegates that moderates did well in those.

:30:38.:30:47.

Three members of the Shadow Cabinet get to go on to the NEC and that

:30:48.:30:50.

could change the balance of power as well. Are you in favour of elections

:30:51.:30:55.

for the Shadow Cabinet, and if so, by whom? In principle... Again, I

:30:56.:31:03.

don't want to take this conversation out of context and don't think you

:31:04.:31:08.

can. This is all about political Moon over in again. My concern is

:31:09.:31:16.

this is to undermine Corbyn. I'm not a fan of people saying they won't

:31:17.:31:23.

serve unless elected. I am accountable to members. How would

:31:24.:31:26.

you like to see the Shadow Cabinet chosen, then? I would be willing to

:31:27.:31:32.

listen to the practicalities about the accommodation of having it

:31:33.:31:35.

entirely elected by members. All elected?

:31:36.:31:39.

But not by the PLP? That could be compromise. There was one third, one

:31:40.:31:49.

third, one third. I would consider that, an electoral college. The PLP

:31:50.:31:58.

could choose the Shadow Cabinet, as has been suggested. Will Corbyn

:31:59.:32:03.

agree to that? It depends if Jeremy is serious about what he says about

:32:04.:32:08.

party unity and olive branches. I want to at least see functional

:32:09.:32:11.

unity where the Labour Party gets on with its job of holding the Tories

:32:12.:32:14.

to account and attacking the weak government. In order to do that you

:32:15.:32:20.

need people to come back who resigned this summer. There will not

:32:21.:32:22.

come back unless they have an independent mandate from the PLP. A

:32:23.:32:26.

few might but to get everyone re-engaged there has got to be some

:32:27.:32:32.

kind of concession who were unhappy with Jeremy Bosman leadership, it is

:32:33.:32:37.

political reality. Mr Corbyn has won two leadership elections in a row.

:32:38.:32:41.

If MPs who were disillusioned with him continue to snap, in the words

:32:42.:32:49.

of Len McCluskey, the Unite leader, do they risk the selection and

:32:50.:32:53.

should they? I don't like talking about the selection process is like

:32:54.:32:57.

that, it makes it seem like people are trying to seize power. That's a

:32:58.:33:02.

decision for local parties. The conversation we should be having,

:33:03.:33:05.

and why this conversation has come about because of mandatory

:33:06.:33:09.

deselection, it's because people are unhappy, there is a rift between the

:33:10.:33:13.

PLP and party members and that must be resolved, and it can be in other

:33:14.:33:16.

ways apart from mandatory deselection. I think those other

:33:17.:33:20.

ways should be the priority. Aren't we in a process where the

:33:21.:33:23.

Parliamentary Labour Party now has to change to reflect the membership

:33:24.:33:27.

of the new Labour Party? At the moment there is a disconnect between

:33:28.:33:31.

the kind of people who have signed up to join Labour and the sort of

:33:32.:33:35.

people who represent Labour in the PLP. Is it not inevitable that some

:33:36.:33:39.

of these will be changed in the months and years ahead? Or the other

:33:40.:33:45.

way it could happen is that the composition of the membership could

:33:46.:33:49.

change to reflect Labour voters more. At the moment we have a

:33:50.:33:52.

membership that his weight to the left even of the people who already

:33:53.:33:58.

vote Labour. Demographically it is dominated by graduates and well off

:33:59.:34:02.

people from the south of England so it doesn't represent the Labour

:34:03.:34:06.

heartlands. So are you going to start a centrist Momentum? There was

:34:07.:34:12.

an initial amount of work on recruitment, one of the mistakes in

:34:13.:34:16.

the leadership election was not have a lot in the phase that you could

:34:17.:34:19.

reach out to the country and persuade loads of people to come

:34:20.:34:26.

back. The moderate wing of the party will not win until we learn how to

:34:27.:34:31.

recruit a mass membership in the same way Jeremy Corbyn has done.

:34:32.:34:35.

It's going to be an interesting time at the NEC. It will be interesting!

:34:36.:34:41.

It's just gone 11.37am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:34:42.:34:50.

Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland:

:34:51.:34:53.

I'll be asking Kezia Dugdale what she really thinks

:34:54.:34:56.

And, all parties agree it's unfair

:34:57.:35:03.

but what's going to replace Council Tax?

:35:04.:35:15.

Kezia Dugdale let it be known, long before yesterday's result,

:35:16.:35:18.

that she didn't think Jeremy Corbyn stood much chance of winning

:35:19.:35:20.

In an interview with Victoria Derbyshire yesterday,

:35:21.:35:23.

Then later that same day, when BBC Scotland's Nick Eardly

:35:24.:35:29.

Well, I'll be speaking to the leader of Scottish Labour shortly,

:35:30.:35:33.

First though, joining me now from the Labour Conference

:35:34.:35:36.

in Liverpool, is our Westminster Correspondent David Porter.

:35:37.:35:45.

David, is this settled? What is the mood like there? In one sense, yes,

:35:46.:35:57.

it settle things but in another sense, it settles nothing at all.

:35:58.:36:01.

Jeremy Corbyn has been re-elected as Labour leader with a slightly

:36:02.:36:05.

increased share of the vote, from 59% last year to almost 62% this

:36:06.:36:10.

year. But what it does not settle is the fact that as far as he is

:36:11.:36:14.

concerned, with most of his MPs, he is in effect in a loveless marriage.

:36:15.:36:21.

They did not like him before the vote and they do not like him now.

:36:22.:36:24.

They do not think he is the right person to leave the party. The

:36:25.:36:28.

leadership question has been settled that does change anything. We will

:36:29.:36:34.

probably, as far as Jeremy Corbyn in the vast majority of his MPs are

:36:35.:36:39.

concerned, we're going to be in for a period of trench warfare. Jeremy

:36:40.:36:43.

Corbyn has said he wants to wipe the slate clean. He wants to talk to

:36:44.:36:50.

MPs. Many MPs say they would only in effect look at him differently if he

:36:51.:36:53.

was to meet them halfway and perhaps grant elections to be shadow cat in

:36:54.:36:58.

it, so that members of the PLP would have some say in who was in Jeremy

:36:59.:37:05.

Corbyn's top team. It would be for leaders to decide how he dished out

:37:06.:37:08.

those portfolios. But the feeling here in Liverpool is that yes, there

:37:09.:37:13.

has been some clarity, but not nearly enough clarity that many in

:37:14.:37:17.

the party few they need to move forward. Is there any sense of

:37:18.:37:21.

humility among the people on the Owen Smith signed, which includes

:37:22.:37:26.

most MPs, who, after all, have lost heavily and have lost even more

:37:27.:37:30.

heavily than they lost last year, is there any sense among them off,

:37:31.:37:35.

well, let's give Jeremy Corbyn a chance to see what he can do? I

:37:36.:37:40.

think there is a sense of feeling that we are where we are and many

:37:41.:37:45.

MPs are now saying Jeremy Corbyn has been re-elected, as you say, with an

:37:46.:37:48.

increased majority, Owen Smith and been re-elected, as you say, with an

:37:49.:37:52.

his supporters thought they could do better, they were comprehensively

:37:53.:37:59.

beaten and Owen Smith and his supporters will have to make the

:38:00.:38:02.

most of it and make the best of it as they see fit. You do get the

:38:03.:38:04.

impression there are perhaps two conferences here in Liverpool. One,

:38:05.:38:09.

starting in the conference behind me, with motions and resolutions,

:38:10.:38:12.

which will be debated on the conference for. And then a second,

:38:13.:38:18.

separate conference, on the fringe. Meetings taking place with people

:38:19.:38:23.

putting ideas forward as to how they can get Labour into a better

:38:24.:38:28.

position. Jeremy Corbyn has a big personal mandate from the vast

:38:29.:38:32.

majority of Labour membership, but you look at opinion polls and there

:38:33.:38:35.

is no sign that he is cutting through. It has been an interesting

:38:36.:38:43.

48 hours in Liverpool. My colleague has been looking at what has been

:38:44.:38:45.

going on here in Liverpool. Jeremy Corbyn is elected leader of

:38:46.:38:56.

the Labour Party. Years back. This time, with a bigger mandate. Despite

:38:57.:39:00.

claims he did not lead Labour to power, there was not much doubt in

:39:01.:39:04.

Liverpool yesterday that Jeremy Corbyn would beat Alan Smith. A

:39:05.:39:07.

thumbs up from him from 60% of those who voted. The light for his

:39:08.:39:12.

supporters, the light applause from those who backed his opponent. Many

:39:13.:39:20.

may have seen this as a foregone conclusion but how the Labour Party

:39:21.:39:23.

reunites is less clear. Starting with other leaders across the UK.

:39:24.:39:27.

Kezia Dugdale, who said last month, Jeremy Corbyn could not win a

:39:28.:39:31.

general election. She backed his challenger. The only person that can

:39:32.:39:35.

unite the UK Labour Party in my view is Alan Smith. Six weeks can be a

:39:36.:39:45.

long time in politics. -- the only person in my view is Owen Smith. I

:39:46.:39:54.

believe a united Labour Party can win a general election. Led by

:39:55.:39:59.

Jeremy Corbyn? Course. We will unite to do that. Mr Corbyn's supporters

:40:00.:40:08.

are confident he can win. We will move on for the benefit of the party

:40:09.:40:11.

and the people we represent. That is key. We have to get back on the

:40:12.:40:16.

and the people we represent. That is front foot and get organised and

:40:17.:40:19.

take on the Tories at Westminster. And the SNP and the Tories in

:40:20.:40:24.

Scotland. Can Jeremy Corbyn win the next election? Yes. In Scotland?

:40:25.:40:31.

Yes. Not everyone here is back to being best friends. The main issues

:40:32.:40:35.

and personalities have caused such a device of summer and are still

:40:36.:40:39.

there. How does the party move on? One suggestion is that there is key

:40:40.:40:44.

players who left the Labour front bench comeback. Some are only

:40:45.:40:47.

prepared to do that if there are elections to be. For now, Mr

:40:48.:40:53.

Gordon's supporters are not convinced. Leaving aside whether or

:40:54.:40:57.

not there should be election to the Shadow Cabinet, people who say I

:40:58.:41:01.

cannot come back unless there is an election, I don't understand that.

:41:02.:41:05.

They would say that the Dean elected they have a mandate. A mandate to do

:41:06.:41:11.

what? Demanded by Jeremy? No! We do it as a team. We do it in an

:41:12.:41:16.

atmosphere of trust. If Jeremy wants you to be in the Shadow Cabinet,

:41:17.:41:21.

frankly, you should say yes. Even as Labour tries to come together, key

:41:22.:41:26.

differences remain. Who, in the party, is prepared to kiss and make

:41:27.:41:27.

up? Kezia Dugdale now joins me from the

:41:28.:41:29.

Labour Party conference Good morning, Kezia Dugdale. Do you

:41:30.:41:46.

have confidence in Jeremy Corbyn? I am delighted and I congratulated

:41:47.:41:49.

Jeremy Corbyn yesterday on his victory. The job now for the Labour

:41:50.:41:53.

Party is to unite behind him. I believe he can unite the Labour

:41:54.:41:59.

Party. He has to want to do that and equally, my colleagues, Labour MPs

:42:00.:42:02.

spinster, need to want that too. It is easy to say those words but it is

:42:03.:42:07.

time for unity. Making it happen is what happens next. I am committed to

:42:08.:42:11.

do that because I want a Labour Government. I get up every morning

:42:12.:42:23.

fighting for that. At what the Tories are doing to our country. The

:42:24.:42:25.

chaos that Brexit has caused, attacks on the welfare system, the

:42:26.:42:27.

chaos that Brexit has caused, Social Security... All right... We

:42:28.:42:29.

have to have a United Labour Party to defeat the Labour Government.

:42:30.:42:32.

When you were asked by Victoria Derbyshire after the announcement of

:42:33.:42:41.

the results yesterday, after seeing Jeremy Corbyn's chances were slim,

:42:42.:42:48.

you then said you did stand by it because it was written down? It is

:42:49.:42:53.

clear what comments I have made. But when you listen to Jeremy Corbyn

:42:54.:42:56.

yesterday, he said he wants to wipe the slate clean. He has a mandate

:42:57.:43:00.

from the party. We saw light yesterday. He has convinced the

:43:01.:43:04.

Labour Party can lead it. Now, his job is to convince the country can

:43:05.:43:08.

lead it. I want to help him do that. I am committed to doing that. To

:43:09.:43:12.

working with Jeremy Corbyn to achieve that end. As I say to you,

:43:13.:43:17.

it is what I have wanted my whole entire life. I want to be part of

:43:18.:43:21.

helping Jeremy Corbyn do that. I want to help him unite the party.

:43:22.:43:28.

That is what we must focus on now. But an hour later, after saying

:43:29.:43:32.

that, you said that Jeremy Corbyn could lead Labour to victory in a

:43:33.:43:38.

general election. It can't be true simultaneously that there is a slim

:43:39.:43:41.

to nonexistent chance of Jeremy Corbyn winning with Labour, which

:43:42.:43:47.

you say you stick by, and of course, he can lead Labour to victory in a

:43:48.:43:55.

general election? Can you explain? I have been absolutely consistent,

:43:56.:43:59.

Gordon. Let me say it again. I believe Jeremy Corbyn can unite the

:44:00.:44:04.

Labour Party. He has to want to do it. The reality of making it happen

:44:05.:44:09.

is the job of us all to do next. He have to want to unite the party and

:44:10.:44:12.

equally, my Labour MP colleagues must want it to. That is what we're

:44:13.:44:17.

focused on. We want to unite the party and I want to play my role in

:44:18.:44:21.

doing that. I want a United Labour Party, committed to taking on and

:44:22.:44:31.

Government. For all those reasons I outlined to you, the chaos of

:44:32.:44:34.

Brexits... I'm sorry... I'm sorry, you say you being clear and

:44:35.:44:42.

consistent. In which logical universe is saying that Jeremy

:44:43.:44:47.

Corbyn's chances of winning a general election are slim to

:44:48.:44:51.

nonexistent and I stick by that comment and then saying, of course,

:44:52.:44:56.

Jeremy Corbyn can win a general election? In which logical universe

:44:57.:45:00.

are those statements clear and consistent? Let me put it this way,

:45:01.:45:04.

divided parties do not win elections. That is why Trinity is so

:45:05.:45:08.

important. The only way the leader of a Labour Party can lead us into a

:45:09.:45:15.

general election is to unite the party. -- satisfying unity is so

:45:16.:45:24.

important. I am committed to that. That is what I will focus on. I saw

:45:25.:45:31.

Jeremy Corbyn last night and this morning. And I will concentrate on

:45:32.:45:36.

unifying the party. The only person that wants to drag us to the past is

:45:37.:45:46.

you, Gordon. When you wrote your comment that Jeremy Corbyn... We

:45:47.:45:50.

have been found this so many times! You have not answered the question.

:45:51.:45:57.

Will you not wrong? I have been absolutely clear. We had an election

:45:58.:46:02.

leadership contest. That is concluded. Jeremy Corbyn has a

:46:03.:46:08.

mandate... He had a mandate before! His duty is to unite the Labour

:46:09.:46:13.

Party and I believe he can do that but he must want to do it. I will

:46:14.:46:17.

work with him to that end. Labour MPs have to do likewise. The job of

:46:18.:46:21.

unifying the party continues because only a United party can win an

:46:22.:46:25.

election. I believe the Labour Party can win a general election as a

:46:26.:46:28.

United fighting forced to take on the Tories. That is what I will

:46:29.:46:31.

spend every aspiring to do. I will work with Jeremy Corbyn to do it.

:46:32.:46:38.

You see, the problem here is that you say you want to rebuild trust

:46:39.:46:40.

with voters. And that you want politicians who are open and honest.

:46:41.:46:47.

Yet you are trying to claim that to flatly contradictory views that you

:46:48.:46:52.

have expressed within the last 24 hours on Jeremy Corbyn, are somehow

:46:53.:46:58.

not contradictory and somehow that in some weird psychological work of

:46:59.:47:03.

meeting even raised the issue? You have been flatly contradicting

:47:04.:47:08.

yourself! I do not accept that for second, Gordon.

:47:09.:47:23.

And I wanted everybody wants is even with a united and unified Labour

:47:24.:47:29.

Party. I'm going to play my role in achieving that end. By going to work

:47:30.:47:32.

Jeremy Corbyn to do that. In graduate with Labour MPs do that. I

:47:33.:47:36.

go to work with our whole movement to achieve that is up we get the

:47:37.:47:40.

Tories out of office. The target young people into work. That is how

:47:41.:47:44.

we create opportunities for young people. Those values and

:47:45.:47:47.

opportunities the drive everybody are the ones that we will put the

:47:48.:47:51.

foreign and exudates. There's a try and reconcile your contradictory

:47:52.:47:54.

statements. What you could argue is that something has changed. Gordon,

:47:55.:47:58.

you need some new questions. I'm sure this is boring for your voters

:47:59.:48:03.

of Europe viewers. What is James? Only a few weeks ago there is no

:48:04.:48:12.

leadership contest. He won the contest yesterday. He has a mandate

:48:13.:48:15.

from the leadership. He needs to convince the country that he can

:48:16.:48:19.

win. I want to help them do that was only United Labour Party can do

:48:20.:48:23.

that. That is why it is so important. The duty is on everybody.

:48:24.:48:26.

That is what we're going to focus on. Do you think it was wise for you

:48:27.:48:32.

with the benefit of hindsight to take such a strong position during

:48:33.:48:35.

the campaign saying that Corbyn could not leave Labour to victory

:48:36.:48:41.

and backing Owen Smith when you are leader of the Scottish Labour Party?

:48:42.:48:44.

Would it not have been wiser for you to stand above the fray and say it

:48:45.:48:50.

is not appropriate for me to take position one way or another. I don't

:48:51.:48:57.

accept that. I have a vote in this leadership contest. I chose to

:48:58.:49:00.

exercise it and they chose to speak out. I did so once during that

:49:01.:49:06.

leadership contest. Throughout my entire political life, I have always

:49:07.:49:09.

stood up for and said what I believe to be right. I think people expect

:49:10.:49:15.

that from people who put themselves into public positions and C delete

:49:16.:49:20.

political parties. I express my view once. That is now over and I'm

:49:21.:49:27.

utterly committed to uniting the party. Only United parties can win

:49:28.:49:30.

elections. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn camp the free of challenge

:49:31.:49:40.

until his next general election? I can't believe you are the one posing

:49:41.:49:45.

a question about another challenge to his leadership. I am saying to

:49:46.:49:50.

you the he has a mandate that should be respected. The way that we

:49:51.:49:54.

respect that mandate is by uniting as a party and getting behind. The

:49:55.:49:58.

responsibility to unite is Jeremy Corbyn and on his parliamentary

:49:59.:50:03.

colleagues. I want to win the general election. Every single

:50:04.:50:06.

person at this conference was to win that election because we see the

:50:07.:50:11.

destruction and chaos of the Tories do to work in community every day. I

:50:12.:50:15.

want them out of office. The way to achieve that is to get the Tories

:50:16.:50:20.

out of Government and win an election. The answer to my last

:50:21.:50:27.

question was no then? Gordon cost I don't know what you don't

:50:28.:50:32.

understand. I am talking about a United Labour Party. What I want

:50:33.:50:38.

more than anything is to get the Tories out. Creates amazing

:50:39.:50:42.

more than anything is to get the opportunities for young people.

:50:43.:50:44.

Labour governments transform the country and make them more equal and

:50:45.:50:47.

fair. Whether that is lifting hundreds of thousands of children

:50:48.:50:51.

out of poverty, helping pensioners. Delivering things I became in a

:50:52.:50:55.

sack. The Tories are hell-bent on destroying the Human Rights Act.

:50:56.:51:00.

Only if we are in power can arguments. I am clearly too

:51:01.:51:06.

dim-witted to understand your clarity, Kezia Dugdale. Could you

:51:07.:51:14.

providers with a sentence to help us understand? I want any Corbyn's

:51:15.:51:25.

mandate to bees respected and I want a united party. I'm committed to

:51:26.:51:30.

creating a United Labour Party. Should the members of the Shadow

:51:31.:51:34.

Cabinet who left in protest against Corbyn's leadership, and do you

:51:35.:51:40.

supported, now rejoin? That Iraq who you support it. I think there is a

:51:41.:51:49.

case for some subtle form of Shadow Cabinet elections. I think that

:51:50.:51:54.

would be a great signal that Jeremy consent of those MPs. Equally, I

:51:55.:51:59.

think they need to have a solidarity to the mandate the Jeremy Corbyn's

:52:00.:52:05.

have just received. Everybody has a responsibility to make this work. I

:52:06.:52:08.

want to make this work. I've said this countless times on this

:52:09.:52:13.

programme. Only United parties can win elections. The way to get the

:52:14.:52:19.

Tories out of office is to stand up to a more equal country and be

:52:20.:52:24.

united. You think members who resigned from the Shadow Cabinet

:52:25.:52:26.

should rejoin it even if Jeremy Corbyn doesn't concede Shadow

:52:27.:52:35.

Cabinet connections? -- elections. I think the something for people to

:52:36.:52:41.

discuss on its own merits. The focus needs to be on the Labour Party. I

:52:42.:52:44.

would like to see people who have stepped away to come back, but they

:52:45.:52:48.

have to believe that Jeremy Corbyn equally have two unite the party.

:52:49.:52:51.

They said at the beginning of this interview, it is easy to say unity,

:52:52.:53:00.

but it is hard to couldn't practice. I am committed to doing my bit of

:53:01.:53:05.

making up work. I saw him last night and I met him again this morning. I

:53:06.:53:09.

will work closely with him as I always have done to make it work. I

:53:10.:53:12.

think that is what your viewers expect. The United Labour Party

:53:13.:53:16.

committed to taking on an defeating that Tories. You think Iain Murray

:53:17.:53:21.

should rejoin the Shadow Cabinet? I think that he has said that he would

:53:22.:53:29.

be delighted to rejoin if there were elections to rejoin. Do you think

:53:30.:53:37.

you should rejoin? Is absolutely a matter for Ian Murray. Yes, but

:53:38.:53:45.

neither of the -- as leader of the Scottish Labour Party surely you

:53:46.:53:49.

have a view? Would you like to see him backing Mr Cabinet? Well, he is

:53:50.:53:56.

already back in my Shadow Cabinet. He plays an excellent role might

:53:57.:53:59.

seem highlighting the issues that affect Scots from Westminster from

:54:00.:54:04.

my Cabinet. With designs to do with the next UK Shadow Cabinet, but he

:54:05.:54:06.

my Cabinet. With designs to do with is up to him. Given your backing for

:54:07.:54:14.

elections to the Shadow Cabinet, to Jeremy Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet,

:54:15.:54:19.

there aren't any elections to your own Shadow Cabinet. Presumably you

:54:20.:54:26.

will be introducing them forthwith? This is a historical? Than anything.

:54:27.:54:27.

will be introducing them forthwith? There has been a history of having

:54:28.:54:33.

elections are the Shadow Cabinet. That is what the debate is about

:54:34.:54:38.

now. Should there be a return to the? There is no such history of

:54:39.:54:41.

doing and the Scottish arm to the Mac parliament. I've not heard

:54:42.:54:47.

anybody calling for that. If you look at my Shadow Cabinet, there is

:54:48.:54:52.

a great deal of strength from all aspects of the party. Holding the

:54:53.:54:56.

SNP to account. We are doing that with considerably success. Before

:54:57.:55:02.

you do the highlighting... We are leading the charge to stop the SNP

:55:03.:55:06.

closing many hospital services that they are promising to keep open just

:55:07.:55:10.

before the election. Why you seriously arguing that you would

:55:11.:55:16.

demand that Jeremy Corbyn introduces elections for his team, but you

:55:17.:55:21.

think it is a bad thing for view? I using that you are against elections

:55:22.:55:25.

to your own team? I did not make the collection on your programme. -- I

:55:26.:55:31.

did not make that demand on your programme. I did not demand Shadow

:55:32.:55:35.

Cabinet elections. I made it very clear what the domains of those

:55:36.:55:38.

conferences. Are you against elections to your own team? It is

:55:39.:55:45.

not a proposal that anybody is asking for Ford. I've got a very

:55:46.:55:51.

strong, gender balanced Cabinet. I've got a great continuing the

:55:52.:55:57.

highlighting the difference between the richest and poorest kids in our

:55:58.:56:02.

schools. Together we are the one party in Scotland who have a very

:56:03.:56:05.

schools. Together we are the one clear pan to stop the SNP and the

:56:06.:56:10.

Tory's cuts. It is only the Labour Party who says that there should be

:56:11.:56:14.

no cuts to public services in Scotland. Jeremy Corbyn Exley spoke

:56:15.:56:20.

about the manifesto committee said it was a radical and progressive

:56:21.:56:25.

manifesto in the best traditions of Labour's history. That message is

:56:26.:56:29.

one that we are going to take Labour's history. That message is

:56:30.:56:32.

through the next five years of the Parliament under my leadership.

:56:33.:56:36.

Other any circumstances where you would vote for another independence

:56:37.:56:42.

referendum? Know. I've said many times to you that the position of

:56:43.:56:45.

this artist Labour Party manifesto was to oppose a second independence

:56:46.:56:55.

referendum in our lifetime. Ian Murray said over the weekend that he

:56:56.:56:59.

is not sure about what the UK Labour's party's position is in an

:57:00.:57:06.

electoral alliance with the SNP. To quote what Ian Murray said, Jeremy

:57:07.:57:11.

seems to be all over the place on it. Is he right to be concerned? Or

:57:12.:57:14.

seems to be all over the place on are you any more clear? Jeremy

:57:15.:57:20.

Corbyn have been very clear that in order to be a Labour Government that

:57:21.:57:24.

has to be a comeback for Labour in Scotland. Jeremy is utterly

:57:25.:57:30.

committed to that. He is working so frequently with me and campaigning

:57:31.:57:33.

with me. Jeremy Corbyn understands that we need Labour MPs in Scotland

:57:34.:57:38.

to deliver that across the whole of the United Kingdom. He accept the

:57:39.:57:41.

reality about. What I would say to you wouldn't is that we have a very

:57:42.:57:44.

significant by-election result in Trowbridge where we took a --

:57:45.:57:53.

Coatbridge that took a seat of the SNP. It is very easy for people to

:57:54.:57:58.

say that we do not win in the heartlands any more. That is a big

:57:59.:58:04.

message of opposing posterity and investing in public services. That

:58:05.:58:07.

is a message that Jeremy Corbyn and I are absolutely united in working

:58:08.:58:11.

together for. You're going to see more of that in the weeks and months

:58:12.:58:16.

ahead. Why is it that Ian Murray, despite this magnificent result in

:58:17.:58:22.

Coatbridge... You have got so many questions about Ian Murray, why

:58:23.:58:25.

don't you get him on the programme? I just wonder whether you are clear

:58:26.:58:30.

that Jeremy Corbyn is not going to have any form of alliance with the

:58:31.:58:35.

SNP? I have been absolutely explicit to you that I have spoken to Jeremy

:58:36.:58:39.

Corbyn about this and that he understands the way to deliver a

:58:40.:58:48.

Corbyn about this and that he Labour Government across the UK

:58:49.:58:52.

means standing up for public services and talking about how we

:58:53.:58:58.

used the powers of our incredibly Scottish powerful Scottish

:58:59.:59:02.

Parliament. I believe it will continue to do that. Jeremy and I

:59:03.:59:06.

are very omitted to that anti-austerities message. We have

:59:07.:59:13.

the powers to say to the SNP coming you have the power to not make the

:59:14.:59:17.

cuts, why don't use? I thought Nicola Sturgeon came into power to

:59:18.:59:25.

stop these cuts. But she is just doing what the Tories are doing. She

:59:26.:59:30.

takes Tories cuts, doubles and passes them on. That is why social

:59:31.:59:34.

care, they care that our elderly get is at the state it is in. That is

:59:35.:59:38.

why the gaps between the richest and poorest kids in our schools are

:59:39.:59:42.

stubborn as it is. That is our NHS service are in disrepair. This

:59:43.:59:50.

reimagines. This truly matters. I wish we had spoken about it. I wish

:59:51.:59:56.

we had spoken about it through the summer, but you had a leadership

:59:57.:00:00.

campaign. Could you give me an example of a policy where you want

:00:01.:00:02.

to have a different policy in Scotland than the UK Labour Party?

:00:03.:00:08.

Gordon, this is fundamentally about having the ability to have a

:00:09.:00:12.

different policy position. One notably is the one we had a party

:00:13.:00:15.

conference last October around Trident. This is one part of our

:00:16.:00:20.

autonomy proposals which makes it very clear from the beginning that

:00:21.:00:24.

the policies we develop in Scotland from a party membership from a team

:00:25.:00:28.

and Scottish Government and Scottish councils. It is made in Scotland for

:00:29.:00:33.

the purpose of standing up the people in Scotland. That is going to

:00:34.:00:36.

be very clear because of these autonomy proposals. I have to say

:00:37.:00:40.

that the details of these autonomy proposals have been long-standing

:00:41.:00:42.

for the last 12 months. Either very closely with Jeremy Corbyn for them.

:00:43.:00:48.

Some of the detail, we have been waiting for five years to get it in.

:00:49.:00:52.

I'm going to be very excited to see those go to the conference.

:00:53.:01:01.

Apologies to you and to the delay we have on the line.

:01:02.:01:06.

All the Scottish parties agree the current system

:01:07.:01:08.

Where they disagree is in what to do about it.

:01:09.:01:12.

Suggestions range from total abolition and replacement,

:01:13.:01:13.

to tweaking and the re-banding of properties.

:01:14.:01:15.

Ten months after the all-party Commission on Local Tax Reform

:01:16.:01:19.

Is there any sign that it will, any time soon?

:01:20.:01:24.

Our homes. Whether we are renters or mortgage donors, they are usually

:01:25.:01:36.

our biggest financial outlay. Alongside the bricks and mortar,

:01:37.:01:40.

there is also the associated costs. Insurance coming utilities of

:01:41.:01:42.

there is also the associated costs. course, and council tax. This week,

:01:43.:01:49.

Holyrood debated the tax which provided a swollen under Government

:01:50.:01:53.

income, but could leave a big hole in our wallets. The Government has

:01:54.:01:56.

plans to make those in the top four bands pay more. This estate agent

:01:57.:02:03.

says the tax is grossly outdated, but change can be unsettling. Any

:02:04.:02:08.

change to the property market, the residential property market that is

:02:09.:02:11.

always there pot of gold. Any change brings a lot of fear. Actually, it

:02:12.:02:16.

always has an effect on the market. The market always forces. The market

:02:17.:02:21.

still has a fragility post 2007. It has not come out of it yet.

:02:22.:02:26.

On Thursday, an amendment was backed which said it undermined local

:02:27.:02:34.

accountability. When it came to the final decision, the Government won

:02:35.:02:43.

by one vote. The Government narrowly avoided defeat because although

:02:44.:02:46.

Kezia Dugdale said she cast a vote, that vote was not registered. But

:02:47.:02:52.

this is the first step down the road for the Government. MSPs must still

:02:53.:02:55.

agree to changes in the amounts paid in the four highest council tax

:02:56.:02:59.

bands. The question is, will they force the Government to change

:03:00.:03:04.

direction? The extra money garnered from those rises in band e-H, is

:03:05.:03:09.

designed to tackle the attainment gap in schools. Parties say

:03:10.:03:15.

education is a priority but said that local authorities are being cut

:03:16.:03:20.

out. COSLA says the decision to use income raised from council tax to

:03:21.:03:24.

pay for a national policy break the link between local taxation and

:03:25.:03:29.

local services. The Government says the educational attainment gap is

:03:30.:03:34.

the most important issue facing the country. We're talking about the

:03:35.:03:37.

education of our children. We could not be thinking of anything better.

:03:38.:03:41.

Another thing I am surprised about, political opponents. They complain

:03:42.:03:44.

about this hundred million pounds going straight to the education of

:03:45.:03:47.

children, I would've thought that was something the Green Party, the

:03:48.:03:50.

Lib Dems, the Labour Party would have been completely in favour of.

:03:51.:03:54.

Opposition parties by to the SNP promised for years to council tax.

:03:55.:03:59.

They have their own ideas about what should happen. The Conservative

:04:00.:04:04.

support higher charges. For some bands. Labour want properties worth

:04:05.:04:12.

?190,000 to pay a flat rate. Plus a percentage of the property value.

:04:13.:04:15.

Those were the morbid attract a higher rate. The Lib Dems are

:04:16.:04:19.

interested in the idea of a land tax. People who improve properties

:04:20.:04:26.

would not be penalised. But perhaps it is the Green Party which has

:04:27.:04:29.

stuck its neck out the furthest. In the long term, they want to replace

:04:30.:04:34.

council tax with a tax on the value of the property, reassessed and

:04:35.:04:37.

you're late, with the rate set by local councils. In the short term,

:04:38.:04:42.

they insist that property values must be updated. We need a

:04:43.:04:46.

re-evaluation of council taxes. There seems to be universal

:04:47.:04:50.

agreement we cannot go on using property values of 1991. If you bear

:04:51.:04:55.

for quarter of a century, some people will be facing higher bills.

:04:56.:04:59.

But we do not separate based on that. We phase it in over five or

:05:00.:05:05.

ten years. We allow deferrals. So, people with large bills, living in a

:05:06.:05:11.

large property, can defer that until they sell or until they die, in some

:05:12.:05:17.

cases. MSPs will soon vote on Government proposals. Politicians

:05:18.:05:24.

should be aware when thinking of local funding. It has been the

:05:25.:05:25.

undoing of some political titans. It's time to look back at the events

:05:26.:05:27.

of the past week and see what's Joing me now from Liverpool

:05:28.:05:30.

are the former Labour MP for West Dunbartonshire, Gemma Doyle

:05:31.:05:37.

and The Herald's Westminster First of all, I apologise in

:05:38.:05:52.

retrospect for Kezia Dugdale, there was a bad delay. I want to apologise

:05:53.:06:00.

in advance. Can you give us a sense of what you think is going on? The

:06:01.:06:04.

mantra coming out is let's unite, let's wipe the slate clean. Do you

:06:05.:06:08.

believe the MPs who fought so bitterly against Jeremy Corbyn all

:06:09.:06:11.

summer are really prepared to do bitterly against Jeremy Corbyn all

:06:12.:06:17.

that? In one word, no. But it does not look as if the other side are

:06:18.:06:20.

prepared to do that either. You're right, the word coming out is unity.

:06:21.:06:26.

prepared to do that either. You're I would say both sides are about as

:06:27.:06:28.

united as warring football teams. They might be in the same family

:06:29.:06:35.

that their daggers drawn. Within a couple of hours of winning, Jeremy

:06:36.:06:37.

that their daggers drawn. Within a Corbyn moved against a Scottish

:06:38.:06:42.

member on Labour's ruling body and Labour MPs on the other side of the

:06:43.:06:46.

argument are suggesting to each other that if they going to Jeremy

:06:47.:06:51.

Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet without waiting and without forcing him to

:06:52.:06:55.

agree to Shadow Cabinet elections, that then they won't get votes from

:06:56.:06:59.

their colleagues in those elections in the future. The word "Scab" is

:07:00.:07:12.

being used. Pickets being crossed. Gemma Doyle, remind us, were you

:07:13.:07:16.

supporting Owen Smith or Jeremy Corbyn? I was a supporter of Owen

:07:17.:07:23.

Smith. I think it looks as though he won the vote in Scotland, small

:07:24.:07:29.

consolation. He did really well in Scotland. But Jeremy Corbyn's

:07:30.:07:33.

mandate has been increased. That is presumably not such a good thing

:07:34.:07:38.

from your point of view? Indeed. But what needs to happen now is we need

:07:39.:07:42.

to see what Jeremy will do with his mandate. Elections to Shadow Cabinet

:07:43.:07:49.

is important. One criticism of Jeremy has been there is a lot of

:07:50.:07:53.

talk and not much action. If he wants to unite the party, I think

:07:54.:07:58.

that is one way he could reach out to members of the PLP and to show

:07:59.:08:02.

members across the party he really is serious. Why should he concede

:08:03.:08:08.

these elections because the only reason people of her persuasion are

:08:09.:08:13.

asking for them is because you know the Parliamentary Labour Party is

:08:14.:08:17.

hostile to Jeremy Corbyn. It is like demanding that just after winning a

:08:18.:08:20.

hostile to Jeremy Corbyn. It is like huge mandate, Jeremy Corbyn should

:08:21.:08:23.

agree to something which will limit his effectiveness. Why on earth

:08:24.:08:28.

should you want to do that? Because he still has a fundamental problem,

:08:29.:08:31.

which is that he does not have the support of the majority of the PLP.

:08:32.:08:36.

And they have been vocal in their criticism. That will not disappear

:08:37.:08:39.

overnight. He has to do something practical. It is not ideal. To be

:08:40.:08:46.

electing the Shadow Cabinet meeting. But he needs to do something

:08:47.:08:50.

concrete and practical to show he is serious about uniting the party.

:08:51.:08:54.

That is why he needs to do it. By kicking it into the long grass,

:08:55.:08:58.

further down the road, to have another meeting of the NEC in a few

:08:59.:09:02.

weeks or whatever that if he is talking about now, I think that is a

:09:03.:09:06.

mistake because MPs will return to Parliament and this issue will

:09:07.:09:10.

mistake because MPs will return to unresolved. I'm curious what you

:09:11.:09:15.

make of this. Gemma Doyle says, a decision must be made. But actually,

:09:16.:09:20.

what's behind this new demand is this not just a variation of what

:09:21.:09:24.

the complaints about Jeremy Corbyn where about all along? There are two

:09:25.:09:27.

completely different views on the Labour Party. One, that the Labour

:09:28.:09:31.

Party should be responsive to its members. There talk on the Jeremy

:09:32.:09:34.

Corbyn said of members electing shadow can. And the idea that MPs

:09:35.:09:41.

have some autonomy because they are responsible to their electorates.

:09:42.:09:45.

Usually, they muddle along but they have now come into absolute

:09:46.:09:50.

contradiction. They have and in doing so, what we're getting is

:09:51.:09:54.

flexing of muscles. What we will probably find out in the next couple

:09:55.:09:58.

of weeks is how strong both sides are. You're absolutely right. Jeremy

:09:59.:10:05.

Corbyn has strengthened his power but he still problems. One of the

:10:06.:10:09.

reasons he is moving on the ruling body as he is trying to strengthen

:10:10.:10:12.

his power there. Gemma is correct. He does need MPs in order to get

:10:13.:10:15.

things done in the House of Commons. They have a certain amount of power.

:10:16.:10:21.

In the middle, what is raising its head, as always, is personal

:10:22.:10:26.

ambition. Some Labour MPs are considering going back into Jeremy

:10:27.:10:29.

Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet. Some of them, it has to be said, because of

:10:30.:10:33.

personal ambition. But I don't want to suggest that is the only reason.

:10:34.:10:37.

Lots of people behind the scenes are also suggesting the need to do so

:10:38.:10:41.

for the sake of the party. For the sake of the future of the party. And

:10:42.:10:47.

even just an argument among the moderates as to whether supporting

:10:48.:10:52.

Jeremy, let his side of the argument when, or prevent his side of the

:10:53.:10:56.

argument winning. And that is still an ongoing debate. Gemma Doyle,

:10:57.:11:02.

argument winning. And that is still have said you want to see elections

:11:03.:11:06.

to the shadow can. If these do not happen, and there have been

:11:07.:11:08.

indications there might be some halfway house, so there could be

:11:09.:11:12.

some compromise, I mean, can you see Labour over the next year or two

:11:13.:11:17.

realistically coming together after all the bitterness we have seen over

:11:18.:11:24.

the summer? I think the honest answer is nobody knows whether that

:11:25.:11:31.

will happen or not. There are real deep divisions now in the Labour

:11:32.:11:37.

Party about how the party should operate, what it should do in

:11:38.:11:41.

Parliament, there are people in the Labour Party now who are, sorry,

:11:42.:11:47.

losing my earpiece, who are not bothered about winning the next

:11:48.:11:51.

election. That is a fundamental problem for a party in Parliament.

:11:52.:12:01.

So, sorry... We can hear you. Go on. That's fine. I think the question

:12:02.:12:05.

was, is the party going to That's fine. I think the question

:12:06.:12:12.

over the next year. It remains to be seen as the honest answer. But as I

:12:13.:12:18.

say, Jeremy will have to offer some practical solutions as to how he

:12:19.:12:21.

will work in Parliament because at the moment, he can't really function

:12:22.:12:25.

with the front bench that he has. He has people doing more than one job.

:12:26.:12:29.

He has a Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland who is not Scottish,

:12:30.:12:32.

you know, he has ministers who are failing to put down amendments to

:12:33.:12:38.

bills, so, it is not working at the moment. He needs practical

:12:39.:12:42.

solutions. Because one of the extraordinary things, Kate, about

:12:43.:12:45.

this, is that actually there has been very little talk about policy,

:12:46.:12:50.

has there? Owen Smith's campaign, in terms of the former political

:12:51.:12:55.

positions, was much the same as terms of the former political

:12:56.:12:58.

Jeremy Corbyn's. What people must be met be used by this. -- a lot of

:12:59.:13:11.

people must be amused by this. No, I don't think that's true. I think

:13:12.:13:17.

Jeremy Corbyn has realised that before he attempted to change party

:13:18.:13:20.

policy he first had to strengthen his position within the party. And

:13:21.:13:25.

that proved incredibly difficult. He spent a year attempting to do that

:13:26.:13:29.

and ultimately failed, when 50 members of his Shadow Cabinet walked

:13:30.:13:35.

out on him. But he has hinted at the policies he wants to change. He

:13:36.:13:39.

wants to change the party position on nuclear weapons and on Trident.

:13:40.:13:46.

Sorry to interrupt but we are out of time. Again, apologies for the

:13:47.:13:50.

delays in the line. That is all from.

:13:51.:13:58.

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer are joined by Lord Prescott, Luke Akehurst of LabourList and Labour NEC member-elect Rhea Wolfson. Tom Newton Dunn, Rachel Shabi and Steve Richards are on the political panel.


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