18/09/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


18/09/2016

The latest political news, interviews and debate in Scotland.


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Jeremy Corbyn insists he can re-unite the Labour Party if he wins

:00:38.:00:47.

the leadership contest next week, but, as threats to deselect MPs

:00:48.:00:50.

opposed to Mr Corbyn come to light, is Labour heading for meltdown?

:00:51.:00:53.

She won the Ukip leadership on Friday, and by Saturday

:00:54.:00:57.

was facing internecine spats and calls for her to ditch

:00:58.:00:59.

So how can Diane James pull her party together,

:01:00.:01:04.

and what's the point of Ukip post-Brexit?

:01:05.:01:07.

Theresa May insists she doesn't need to call a fresh election,

:01:08.:01:13.

so will she deliver every promise made in the 2015

:01:14.:01:18.

We've updated our Manifesto Tracker to check how much of it

:01:19.:01:27.

Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland: I'll be talking

:01:28.:01:29.

referendums with the Secretary of State for Scotland.

:01:30.:01:32.

And John Swinney tells us some government money may soon go direct

:01:33.:01:34.

it all over for the Lib Dems in the capital?

:01:35.:01:46.

And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political

:01:47.:01:49.

panel in the business - Tim Shipman, Helen Lewis

:01:50.:01:51.

and Isabel Oakeshott, who'll be tweeting throughout

:01:52.:01:53.

the programme using the hashtag #BBCSP.

:01:54.:01:57.

By this time next week we'll know whether Jeremy Corbyn

:01:58.:02:00.

will remain Labour leader, or if his challenger, Owen Smith,

:02:01.:02:02.

Whoever wins, they face a big challenge to reunite the party

:02:03.:02:09.

after months of hostilities between Corbyn supporters

:02:10.:02:12.

in the grassroots and the majority of Labour MPs.

:02:13.:02:18.

Tomorrow, two television documentaries are scheduled to air -

:02:19.:02:22.

on BBC One and Channel 4 - which report on the

:02:23.:02:24.

Speaking to the BBC's deputy political editor John Pienaar

:02:25.:02:28.

for Panorama, Len McClusky, general secretary of the Unite

:02:29.:02:34.

union, said opponents of Mr Corbyn need to get back

:02:35.:02:37.

Some of the MPs have behaved absolutely despicably

:02:38.:02:42.

and disgracefully, and they've not shown any respect

:02:43.:02:45.

So those vocal dissidents who do not show the respect

:02:46.:02:51.

to the leader that you describe, when it comes to deselection

:02:52.:02:54.

they would simply be asking for it, you say?

:02:55.:02:57.

I think they would, I think anybody who behaves in a way

:02:58.:03:01.

that is totally disrespectful, and outwith the culture

:03:02.:03:05.

of the Labour Party, is basically asking to be

:03:06.:03:07.

Meanwhile, Channel 4's Dispatches programme secretly filmed a meeting

:03:08.:03:16.

of Momentum activists in London - that's the organisation set up

:03:17.:03:22.

to support Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, where the former

:03:23.:03:24.

chairman of the Brighton Labour Party set out his views

:03:25.:03:27.

on opponents of Corbyn, including the local

:03:28.:03:29.

And we've been joined by the Labour MP for Hove, Peter Kyle.

:03:30.:04:26.

Are you nervous about your future? I have seen that clip for the first

:04:27.:04:34.

time now. I made three promises when I was up for selection, that I would

:04:35.:04:38.

be the hardest working candidate, bring politics back to the high

:04:39.:04:41.

street and engage with the public in a way that they never had in the

:04:42.:04:45.

constituency before, and beat the Tories, and I have done all three of

:04:46.:04:49.

those things. I have been incredibly hard-working with my team to make

:04:50.:04:52.

sure politics is driven deeper and wider into the local constituency

:04:53.:04:56.

than it ever has been before. We are more inclusive than any point before

:04:57.:05:08.

and more hard-working... I want to ask you another question... If they

:05:09.:05:11.

want to get me out of that seat, they have to work hard to do so. Is

:05:12.:05:14.

there an organised campaign to remove you? You have just seen the

:05:15.:05:17.

chair of my local party talking in a secret meeting somewhere to have me

:05:18.:05:19.

ousted, so clearly there is a movement locally. I have been a

:05:20.:05:23.

member of the Labour Party my whole life, there are people who have

:05:24.:05:27.

fought for other parties their whole lives who have joined in the last

:05:28.:05:30.

few weeks and are trying to beat the Labour Party in a different way, by

:05:31.:05:34.

getting rid of me. I am going to carry on doing my job. They are

:05:35.:05:36.

trying to get rid of you, aren't they? They are trying to

:05:37.:05:51.

get rid of the only Labour seat for a 200 mile stretch of coastline.

:05:52.:05:53.

That is extraordinary, we are surrounded down there by Tories and

:05:54.:05:56.

they are aiming fire at a Labour MP working harder than any other down

:05:57.:05:58.

there, trying to solve problems of the rail, the health service,

:05:59.:06:00.

hosting a debate last week about abuse in the family Court against

:06:01.:06:04.

women, all of these core issues for the Labour Party and that is what

:06:05.:06:07.

they are aiming fire act. It does not seem to make any difference of

:06:08.:06:12.

Mr Sandall, who was the head of the constituency, who was once

:06:13.:06:17.

suspended, he says he does not -- you do not represent them any more?

:06:18.:06:25.

He said I did not support the doctors, I did, I took the line

:06:26.:06:28.

given by Heidi Alexander at the time, which was not to go to the

:06:29.:06:32.

particular picket line. I have held round tables with doctors, spoken in

:06:33.:06:37.

the chamber about doctors. He said a list of different areas where I have

:06:38.:06:41.

not supported the Labour socialist left line, every one of them he is

:06:42.:06:47.

absolutely categorically wrong. On rail renationalisation, I have never

:06:48.:06:52.

spoken against it. I said it cannot happen for ten years so in the

:06:53.:06:56.

meantime I am making sure I can make people's journeys home from work

:06:57.:06:58.

better than the journey to work, which is what people expect. Who

:06:59.:07:04.

will have the support, you all the people who want to get wood of you?

:07:05.:07:09.

I don't think about that for a second, my job is to represent the

:07:10.:07:13.

people who elected me. There is a 34% increase in the Labour vote in

:07:14.:07:18.

Hove because of the way that my team ran the campaign. But they know all

:07:19.:07:23.

that and they still want rid of you. Clive Lewis, fellow Labour MP, said

:07:24.:07:29.

to the BBC this morning it is democratic selection. There is

:07:30.:07:32.

nothing democratic about what they are doing,

:07:33.:07:50.

there is nothing reaching out about what they are doing. Jeremy is the

:07:51.:07:54.

first person I have come across who uses an olive branch as a weapon to

:07:55.:07:57.

beat people with. On the same day they hold out an olive branch, they

:07:58.:08:00.

released a list of MPs who they say hate Jeremy. This is not the kind of

:08:01.:08:03.

inclusive leadership I would expect. If you face a battle to hold your

:08:04.:08:06.

seat, you don't expect any help from Jeremy Corbyn? He has come down to

:08:07.:08:09.

Brighton and said he would not stand in the way of my deselection. I am

:08:10.:08:11.

100% focused on delivering for the people he elected me and I

:08:12.:08:14.

represent, that is what I am in politics for, so if they want to

:08:15.:08:18.

defeat me they have to work harder than me for the constituency, just

:08:19.:08:21.

like the Tories would have to do. You have made that point several

:08:22.:08:26.

times. You talk about being one of the few Labour seats in a sea of

:08:27.:08:30.

Conservative seats in what in McLeod used to call the deep South, he did

:08:31.:08:35.

that for a reason, but isn't your Brighton and Hove Labour party a bit

:08:36.:08:39.

of a basket case? There have been examples of abusive behaviour, in

:08:40.:08:44.

ballot, the NEC suspended it in July, it is a bit of a mess. When I

:08:45.:08:49.

go out campaigning, which is every weekend, I have a massive team

:08:50.:08:53.

around me, I am part of an incredible movement in Brighton and

:08:54.:08:56.

Hove, and the vast majority of people in the Labour Party in

:08:57.:09:00.

Brighton and nationwide want to do the right thing, they care about

:09:01.:09:03.

social values and delivering it. We just have to win the argument but we

:09:04.:09:08.

have to be more electable and Jeremy is not showing the calibre of

:09:09.:09:10.

leadership that the official opposition needs, the

:09:11.:09:25.

Labour Party needs, and the country needs to look to if we are going to

:09:26.:09:28.

make the leap from opposition into power. Thank you for being with us

:09:29.:09:31.

this morning. Later in the programme we hope to be joined by James

:09:32.:09:33.

Schneider of Momentum. Allen, how typical is this

:09:34.:09:38.

situation? Are a number of Labour MPs now going to face deselection

:09:39.:09:43.

challenges? I think lots of people in the PLP are worried, more of them

:09:44.:09:46.

are women than men, I don't know if that is coincidence or speaks to

:09:47.:09:50.

something broader, but the boundary changes give golden opportunity for

:09:51.:09:54.

some rethinking, Jeremy Corbyn is talking about selection. The idea if

:09:55.:09:58.

you have a boundary change, if you have 40%, your steak on the seat is

:09:59.:10:04.

the same but anybody not in that situation has to play a game of

:10:05.:10:06.

the same but anybody not in that musical chairs and that is seen as a

:10:07.:10:10.

good chance to reconfigure the party. It is good this is coming out

:10:11.:10:14.

into the open because we have heard for months from Jeremy Corbyn's team

:10:15.:10:18.

that this is a terrible smear but it seems to be something that people

:10:19.:10:22.

like Len McCluskey, very close to the Labour leadership, want to

:10:23.:10:27.

happen. It has been denied, but we had Len McCluskey now saying he is

:10:28.:10:32.

up for the changes, particularly for people who have been very rude about

:10:33.:10:39.

Mr Corbyn, Clive Lewis talking it -- calling it democratic selection,

:10:40.:10:42.

Momentum, as we have seen from the film, clearly organising to move in

:10:43.:10:46.

on a number of MPs, it is going to happen? Yes, I think it is, the

:10:47.:10:51.

phrase Clive Lewis used this morning is a natural churn, are turn of

:10:52.:10:55.

phrase which suggest the label -- upheaval. People are saying that

:10:56.:11:02.

Jeremy Corbyn will reach out to all of these people, ask what he has

:11:03.:11:06.

done wrong and bring everybody back together. The people on the other

:11:07.:11:11.

side think that is a chance to line up loyalty pledges. Meanwhile we

:11:12.:11:14.

hear this morning in the newspapers that Corbyn and the people around

:11:15.:11:18.

him had a meeting in a country house a month ago in which they are not

:11:19.:11:22.

just planning to go after MPs but also the leadership of the Labour

:11:23.:11:26.

Party itself in terms of the staffing, the Management, the

:11:27.:11:28.

general secretary is for the high jump, we hear, and the guy they are

:11:29.:11:34.

thinking of lining up for that is one of Mr Paloschi -- Len

:11:35.:11:41.

McCluskey's friends at Unite, you cannot imagine they would put too

:11:42.:11:45.

many barriers in his way. That appears to be what is going on

:11:46.:11:49.

behind the scenes. At every single stage where the moderates say this

:11:50.:11:53.

is the worst thing that could happen, the Corbynistas said, oh,

:11:54.:11:57.

no, it isn't, and you find out something worse is going on. If Mr

:11:58.:12:02.

Corbyn is re-elected comfortably, perhaps by even more of a majority

:12:03.:12:07.

than he was last time, isn't it only natural that they should then work

:12:08.:12:13.

for the MPs to reflect more the views of the new membership? One of

:12:14.:12:20.

the interesting aspects of what is going on it it seems to be the new

:12:21.:12:25.

MPs like Peter Kyle who we have just had on who were under so much threat

:12:26.:12:29.

here, and the reason is because they have not got that hinterland with

:12:30.:12:32.

their party association, they have not built up that long-term trust.

:12:33.:12:38.

One of the things that is furious about this party leadership contest

:12:39.:12:43.

is that normally once a leadership contest is over, it is a cue for a

:12:44.:12:47.

period of stability and calm, it brings things to

:12:48.:13:14.

ahead everybody settles down and falls into line. I think the

:13:15.:13:17.

opposite will happen here. There is absolutely no sign that Jeremy

:13:18.:13:19.

Corbyn's return, as we expect to happen, to the leadership will in

:13:20.:13:22.

some ways take the steam out of this thing. They do have a plan, I think,

:13:23.:13:25.

at the moment, to give the Parliamentary party some more power

:13:26.:13:27.

over the selection of the Shadow Cabinet, and that could be a way of

:13:28.:13:30.

trying to work together better, but I can't see it working. We will talk

:13:31.:13:33.

more about this later. Let's move on to the Conservatives.

:13:34.:13:35.

Theresa May insists her Government will be markedly different

:13:36.:13:37.

from David Cameron's, but doesn't appear to want

:13:38.:13:39.

an early general election to provide her with a new mandate.

:13:40.:13:42.

So, does that mean she'll stick by everything in Conservatives'

:13:43.:13:44.

We've been busy crawling through the promises

:13:45.:13:47.

made by David Cameron, and updated our Manifesto Tracker

:13:48.:13:49.

to check which policies are being pursued and which have been ditched.

:13:50.:13:52.

It's been an eventful period since we launched

:13:53.:13:55.

Britain has voted to leave the EU and a new Prime

:13:56.:13:59.

Minister is in place, but the Conservative Government

:14:00.:14:00.

under Theresa May will still be held to the promises it made ahead

:14:01.:14:04.

of the 2015 general election in their manifesto, and a few other

:14:05.:14:07.

big commitments made during the campaign.

:14:08.:14:08.

And this is how we are keeping track of their progress.

:14:09.:14:11.

We have identified 161 pledges and loaded them into

:14:12.:14:14.

We grouped them into categories covering all the major areas

:14:15.:14:20.

of Government policy, from the constitution

:14:21.:14:23.

And we have given each of the promises a colour rating.

:14:24.:14:30.

Red means little or no progress so far.

:14:31.:14:34.

Amber means the Government has made some progress.

:14:35.:14:39.

While green is for delivered pledges.

:14:40.:14:42.

Let's start by looking at one here in foreign affairs and defence,

:14:43.:14:45.

The promise to hold a referendum on our EU membership.

:14:46.:14:58.

We have changed that to green, as the Government did deliver

:14:59.:15:00.

in June, even if it didn't get the result it wanted.

:15:01.:15:03.

Many of the promises made while David Cameron was leader

:15:04.:15:05.

were based around what he hoped he could achieve in his

:15:06.:15:08.

renegotiation of our relationship with the EU, particularly

:15:09.:15:10.

The manifesto said that EU migrants who want to claim tax credits

:15:11.:15:20.

and child benefits must live here and contribute

:15:21.:15:22.

The deal offered to David Cameron by the rest of the EU was a much

:15:23.:15:30.

weaker version of the pledge, which, like the rest

:15:31.:15:32.

of the renegotiation, was rejected by the voters

:15:33.:15:35.

So we have given this a red, although it is possible

:15:36.:15:43.

the Government could deliver on it once we have left the EU.

:15:44.:15:48.

The same goes for the promise that if a child of an EU migrant

:15:49.:15:51.

is living abroad, they should receive no child benefit

:15:52.:15:54.

David Cameron's renegotiation failed to secure this policy

:15:55.:16:01.

in full and it would be up to Theresa May's Government if it

:16:02.:16:04.

The vote to leave has had big implications for manifesto

:16:05.:16:11.

commitments in other areas, like here in the economy.

:16:12.:16:17.

One of the central promises made by David Cameron

:16:18.:16:19.

and George Osborne was this one, to eliminate the deficit and start

:16:20.:16:23.

But after the Brexit vote, Theresa May confirmed that

:16:24.:16:31.

while the Government aims to achieve a budget surplus,

:16:32.:16:34.

it has dropped the target of doing so by the end

:16:35.:16:41.

Now, those are some areas where the Government has made little

:16:42.:16:47.

Well, it fought a major battle in Parliament to tighten the rules

:16:48.:16:55.

This promise, which said strike action can only be called

:16:56.:17:02.

when at least half the eligible workforce have voted, is now law,

:17:03.:17:04.

As does this one, meaning that strikes affecting essential public

:17:05.:17:11.

services like health, education, fire and transport,

:17:12.:17:12.

will need the backing of at least 40% of those eligible to vote.

:17:13.:17:23.

We have marked the majority of policies as amber,

:17:24.:17:25.

meaning at least some progress is being made.

:17:26.:17:30.

Here in welfare, for example, we have got the Government's

:17:31.:17:33.

flagship reform, universal credit, which has been rolled out

:17:34.:17:35.

for some job-seekers, although the timetable for full

:17:36.:17:39.

delivery has been pushed back repeatedly and is currently

:17:40.:17:41.

And another here, under the environment.

:17:42.:17:51.

That's the promise to create a so-called bluebelt of protected

:17:52.:17:53.

conservation zones in the water around the UK's coast.

:17:54.:17:59.

That has been given amber, as the programme still

:18:00.:18:01.

Now let's see how the Government is doing overall.

:18:02.:18:07.

Out of 161 election commitments, the number of commitments we have

:18:08.:18:10.

The number marked amber falls to 90, and the number of green or delivered

:18:11.:18:20.

We will be returning to the Manifesto Tracker again,

:18:21.:18:26.

but in the meantime you can find all of the data on the politics

:18:27.:18:30.

And you can see the full details of our Manifesto Tracker

:18:31.:18:37.

on the BBC website - that's bbc.co.uk/news.

:18:38.:18:49.

I'm joined by the Conservative Cabinet minister, the leader

:18:50.:18:51.

of the House of Commons, David Lidington.

:18:52.:18:54.

Your biggest manifesto fail to date is immigration, how are you ever

:18:55.:19:05.

going to get net migration below 100,000? A number of different

:19:06.:19:09.

measures and clearly the nature of the renegotiation now as we leave

:19:10.:19:12.

the European Union will have a very important bearing on that, but one

:19:13.:19:15.

thing the Prime Minister set out very clearly is that we remain

:19:16.:19:20.

committed to getting the reduction in net migration that she has talked

:19:21.:19:25.

about consistently, but there's no quick fixes. People come to this

:19:26.:19:30.

country through a number of different routes, son to marry

:19:31.:19:35.

citizens, some for work reasons, some for asylum claims, some of the

:19:36.:19:38.

study, and we have got to look at each of those and work out how we

:19:39.:19:41.

can make sure the numbers are managed and controlled in the way

:19:42.:19:45.

people would expect. But you have been in power for six years and you

:19:46.:19:50.

have been in control of non-EU migration for six years, and it is

:19:51.:19:55.

still running at 190,000 net per year, even on the part of migration

:19:56.:20:01.

you are on complete control, you are nowhere near the 100,000 target.

:20:02.:20:07.

Why? Because in part our economy has been very sexual and other

:20:08.:20:13.

universities have been successful in attracting people to come here. We

:20:14.:20:18.

need to make sure that people, when they come here legitimately, to do a

:20:19.:20:23.

university course or take out a work permit opportunity for a limited

:20:24.:20:27.

period of time, do actually return home after they have completed that

:20:28.:20:33.

time they are permitted here, that we, as we have done, cut the number

:20:34.:20:42.

of bonus colleges... 190,000 net per year of non-EU, and you didn't say

:20:43.:20:49.

we will cut it to 100,000 unless we run the economy well. There were no

:20:50.:20:55.

ifs, no buts, was David Cameron's exact phrase. Can we get some

:20:56.:21:00.

honesty here, this whole project is Mission impossible. The meteor

:21:01.:21:04.

manifesto pledge, you would have to cut EU migration to below 50000 and

:21:05.:21:12.

non-EU migration to below 50,000. It's not going to happen, is it? We

:21:13.:21:18.

are committed to the ambitions, the object of the Prime Minister has set

:21:19.:21:22.

out. I think the public accepts that people who come here bona fides as

:21:23.:21:31.

tourists, workers to fill a skills gap we have got, that's fine but

:21:32.:21:36.

they expect people then to go back after their term here. And they also

:21:37.:21:41.

expect, which we are doing, to make sure school leavers have the

:21:42.:21:44.

opportunity to be trained so they can take the jobs that are

:21:45.:21:48.

available. They expect you to meet the promise you have made twice. He

:21:49.:21:54.

made it in the 2010 manifesto and again in the 2015 manifesto. I think

:21:55.:21:58.

many people watching this will say, why do you repeat a pledge you know

:21:59.:22:05.

you cannot keep? I don't agree it cannot be kept, but what I have said

:22:06.:22:10.

to you is that this is a complex challenge. There are no quick fixes

:22:11.:22:16.

to this, this is something Theresa May has repeatedly said. But just as

:22:17.:22:20.

we have introduced restrictions on access to benefits that we have

:22:21.:22:27.

introduced a requirement for people coming to marry a British citizen to

:22:28.:22:30.

speak English and reach a certain standard before they come here, we

:22:31.:22:35.

need to look at that level of detail at each of the tracks that people

:22:36.:22:40.

used to come here. Net migration is running at three times your target.

:22:41.:22:45.

In the manifesto you said you would insist EU migrants would need to

:22:46.:22:48.

live and work here for four years before they could claim welfare

:22:49.:22:55.

benefits. The EU said no. Now we are leaving the EU, is that the minimum

:22:56.:23:01.

we will insist on? Clearly anything to do with EU citizens already here

:23:02.:23:07.

and prospective inward migration by EU citizens or British citizens to

:23:08.:23:11.

other EU countries is part of the negotiation. Is that still a pledge?

:23:12.:23:22.

That specific pledge was part of the last manifesto, it was actually

:23:23.:23:25.

delivered in a number of different ways through the restrictions that

:23:26.:23:31.

we did place upon, and are still in force, on EU migrants coming here

:23:32.:23:37.

seeking work and getting access to out of work benefits. The big issue

:23:38.:23:41.

at the renegotiation David Cameron lead was access to tax credits and

:23:42.:23:46.

in work benefits. He came to a deal on that which limited it, but that

:23:47.:23:53.

failed after the referendum. It wasn't that you don't get anything

:23:54.:23:57.

unless you have been here for four years, your manifesto also promised

:23:58.:24:01.

the required EU job seekers to leave if they haven't found a job within

:24:02.:24:08.

six months. Will that be fulfilled pledge in this Parliament? That is

:24:09.:24:21.

already a policy we have taken. How many EU citizens have you removed? I

:24:22.:24:25.

think we can agree to close the norm. You have not kept that pledge,

:24:26.:24:33.

EU job seekers are here, aren't they? That is one very important

:24:34.:24:41.

part of the exit negotiation is now under way, but it wouldn't be

:24:42.:24:43.

sensible to give a running commentary on the detail of that.

:24:44.:24:48.

Post Brexit, it would be reasonable to think EU migrants still coming

:24:49.:24:52.

here would be regarded more favourable than non-EU migrants? We

:24:53.:24:57.

were part of the club for 40 years. What they get more favourable

:24:58.:25:03.

treatment if they were EU citizens? That is speculation about what comes

:25:04.:25:07.

out of the negotiation, and we will go into that with a range of

:25:08.:25:11.

objectives, both in terms of control over migration by EU citizens, which

:25:12.:25:17.

I think is what British people expected when they voted as they

:25:18.:25:20.

did, but also with the objective of getting the best possible outcome

:25:21.:25:25.

for British business. On tax and spend, one of the key promises in

:25:26.:25:29.

the manifesto was to move to fiscal surplus from fiscal deficit by the

:25:30.:25:34.

end of the decade, do you still intend to keep that? The PM said she

:25:35.:25:44.

remains committed, but not by the end of the parliament. When you look

:25:45.:25:49.

at the fact there is uncertainty in the world economy, clearly some

:25:50.:25:52.

uncertainty in the aftermath of the referendum outcome, that was a

:25:53.:25:55.

sensible, pragmatic decision to take. So do we have an idea of when

:25:56.:26:06.

the target of surplus will be? The Chancellor will give his Autumn

:26:07.:26:10.

Statement in the next few weeks, and will set out the Government's plan.

:26:11.:26:16.

The pledge to start a move towards surplus in the 2018/19 manifesto, it

:26:17.:26:22.

said we are set to move into surplus of them, that is now off the cards?

:26:23.:26:35.

We are committed to it, but not with that timing. When you set out to a

:26:36.:26:39.

destination, if the traffic conditions say you should take

:26:40.:26:44.

different route, that's what you do. But we don't know if Brexit will be

:26:45.:26:49.

as dire as people like you predicted, so until we do know that,

:26:50.:26:53.

why ditch the planned to head the surplus that you promised the

:26:54.:26:59.

British people? Because there is uncertainty in the world economy. It

:27:00.:27:03.

seems sensible to make that adjustment, but the destination

:27:04.:27:07.

still remains. You have no evidence anything has changed. You work on

:27:08.:27:15.

the basis of evidence remains but Philip will be working on these

:27:16.:27:18.

details in the Autumn Statement shortly. Will Theresa May's ferment

:27:19.:27:27.

continued to implement the 2015 manifesto? Is she committed to it in

:27:28.:27:32.

its entirety as much as David Cameron? Yes, she was very clear out

:27:33.:27:37.

her first cabinet meeting that she wanted every departmental minister

:27:38.:27:40.

to go back to the manifesto on which we were elected with a majority, and

:27:41.:27:46.

to ensure that we were delivering on those objectives. I think your

:27:47.:27:51.

tracker is a good idea. Just not when it comes to the surplus or

:27:52.:27:58.

immigration? One point of the tracker is that it enables you and

:27:59.:28:01.

the public to see where we are making progress, as we are for

:28:02.:28:06.

example on getting more poorer people out of tax and into work and

:28:07.:28:09.

so on, and where we have taken the decision to alter the course of it.

:28:10.:28:14.

I'm glad you think the tracker is a good idea. Come back in the future

:28:15.:28:16.

and we will talk more about it. She says Ukip is the official

:28:17.:28:19.

opposition in waiting. But how can Ukip's new leader,

:28:20.:28:22.

Diane James, stop the infighting and factionalism that's threatened

:28:23.:28:24.

to destroy the party's And what's the point

:28:25.:28:26.

of Ukip now that the UK Diane James joins me

:28:27.:28:30.

live in just a moment. First, Ellie Price reports

:28:31.:28:33.

from Ukip's party conference in Bournemouth, where the new leader

:28:34.:28:35.

moved swiftly to put her stamp It is an absolute pleasure

:28:36.:28:38.

to announce, with 8451 votes, the leader of the UK

:28:39.:28:44.

Independence Party, Diane James! There you have it,

:28:45.:28:50.

the biggest non-surprise in politics in years -

:28:51.:28:53.

Diane James is the She's been the frontrunner in this

:28:54.:28:55.

election campaign all summer. Of course, the challenge now

:28:56.:28:59.

is going to be convincing this lot What I will be doing is stepping

:29:00.:29:02.

into his leadership shoes, but I will be doing everything

:29:03.:29:20.

to achieve the political success that he's handing over to me

:29:21.:29:24.

and to you. But, as the new leader, Diane James

:29:25.:29:28.

knows she has big shoes to fill. Nigel's a great almost wartime

:29:29.:29:33.

leader, he said that during his speech, and I think

:29:34.:29:36.

Diane's a different kind of leader. There's talk of war,

:29:37.:29:39.

there's talk of peace times, but unfortunately there aren't peace

:29:40.:29:44.

times within Ukip at the moment. I think this pretty much

:29:45.:29:47.

settles the issue. Diane is strong on these

:29:48.:29:49.

sorts of issues. In many ways, Nigel

:29:50.:29:51.

was slightly weak, actually. There's really only about four

:29:52.:29:56.

or five people who cause trouble in Ukip, and I'm pretty sure that's

:29:57.:29:59.

the end of the story. But just before a live interview

:30:00.:30:03.

with Ukip's Steven Woolfe, I was literally caught in the middle

:30:04.:30:07.

of what you could describe You've seen and heard what was said

:30:08.:30:10.

in the media, and so... The reason for Neil

:30:11.:30:22.

Hamilton's anger? Diane James had rewritten the next

:30:23.:30:27.

day's conference schedule It certainly seems like a quixotic

:30:28.:30:29.

decision from somebody who an hour or two ago was talking

:30:30.:30:37.

about the need for party unity. He was replaced by his rival

:30:38.:30:39.

in Welsh Ukip. You said to me the other day

:30:40.:30:44.

there would be a bloodbath, Is this the beginning

:30:45.:30:47.

of the bloodbath? I think it's the beginning of Diane

:30:48.:30:52.

putting her foot down, showing that she is the leader,

:30:53.:30:55.

and that she wants the rest of the conference to go the way

:30:56.:30:58.

that she wants it to go. We're fine, just

:30:59.:31:01.

wondering who you are? That's Douglas Carswell,

:31:02.:31:04.

by the way, the party's only MP. The now ex-leader thinks

:31:05.:31:07.

he knows exactly who he is, and was using his new-found

:31:08.:31:09.

freedom to explain. During the referendum campaign,

:31:10.:31:14.

he's really done all he can But the new leader was there,

:31:15.:31:16.

symbolically, to greet him. Damaging comments from

:31:17.:31:23.

Mr Farage this morning, Lots of people in politics say

:31:24.:31:25.

all sorts of things. Diane James was also

:31:26.:31:30.

more than happy to share This conference ends

:31:31.:31:34.

on a conciliatory note, and there are signs this

:31:35.:31:50.

party is already moving And we've been joined by

:31:51.:31:53.

the new leader of Ukip, Diane James. Good morning, thank you. What is the

:31:54.:32:18.

point of Ukip? We are the only party 100% committed to Brexit, we have a

:32:19.:32:22.

Tory Government that is still split, a Labour Party that has no idea

:32:23.:32:26.

which direction it is going in. You have what is left of the Liberal

:32:27.:32:30.

Democrats relying on their voice in Europe, their single voice in

:32:31.:32:33.

Europe, to get their message across, and we are the one party that will

:32:34.:32:37.

stand up for the over 17 million people that wanted to leave the

:32:38.:32:42.

European Union, simple. Except that you are dysfunctional? No, we are

:32:43.:32:54.

embarking on a brand-new era, as I said on a conference. I know you

:32:55.:32:57.

will pick up on the changes I made to the programme but the new leader

:32:58.:33:00.

has the prerogative to do that. I understand that, and leaders should

:33:01.:33:02.

lead, but Paul Nuttall, the outgoing deputy leader, has spoken of a

:33:03.:33:05.

cancer at the heart of the party that has led to leading light using

:33:06.:33:09.

Ukip as a football. You have huge problems in Wales, its huge problems

:33:10.:33:13.

with the NEC, an issue with Nathan Gill, with many favoured candidates

:33:14.:33:21.

who ended up not standing, senior colleagues falling out, membership

:33:22.:33:24.

and funding declining, which bit of that is not dysfunctional? Thank you

:33:25.:33:28.

for reminding me of the issues I have got to tackle over the next few

:33:29.:33:33.

weeks. I made it clear in my events around the country that I would have

:33:34.:33:37.

a 100 day plan, focusing on precisely the sort of issues you

:33:38.:33:40.

have outlined. I don't agree with one of them, by any means, but in

:33:41.:33:45.

100 days I hope to be able to show that we are turning a corner and

:33:46.:33:50.

that we are embarking on a new era. You claim you will be the real

:33:51.:33:53.

opposition to Government but you only have one semidetached MP in

:33:54.:34:00.

Westminster, it is delusional? No, it is not, look where we are at this

:34:01.:34:04.

point, potentially four by-elections, we said we would not

:34:05.:34:08.

stand in one out of respect to Jo Cox but three others, look at those

:34:09.:34:14.

by-elections in the context of the dysfunctional position Labour is in,

:34:15.:34:18.

and we are ripe to take those seats. Do you accept your only MP, Douglas

:34:19.:34:22.

Carswell, is pretty semidetached at best? I would not call him

:34:23.:34:27.

semidetached, I heard the speech he gave at the conference, the

:34:28.:34:31.

endorsement he gave me and the endorsement he has given

:34:32.:34:34.

subsequently, and I see him as being a member of the Ukip team going

:34:35.:34:38.

forward. You have asked to move a Private members Bill to invoke

:34:39.:34:45.

article 50, has he agreed? He stated he would do his level best. That is

:34:46.:34:49.

not the same as agreeing. He made the point that there is another

:34:50.:34:54.

option, to repeal the European communities act and instigate a

:34:55.:34:56.

debate on that. We have an individual prepared to launch a two

:34:57.:34:59.

pronged attack in the House of Commons and forced Theresa May into

:35:00.:35:04.

doing something. A two pronged one-man attack. He told me on Friday

:35:05.:35:12.

that Ukip should be, quote, a free-market Libertarian party. If

:35:13.:35:16.

that your vision? If I can remind you, from my speech, my vision is

:35:17.:35:21.

probably slightly different words, it is global, positive, outward

:35:22.:35:25.

looking, enterprise building and making this country great again

:35:26.:35:29.

outside of the EU control. But if it free-market and libertarian? That is

:35:30.:35:36.

his vision, I am trying to work out the vision -- if the vision of your

:35:37.:35:42.

only MP is the same as the new leader? OK, I will say it is the

:35:43.:35:47.

same. So you are free-market and libertarianism? Yes, we are about

:35:48.:35:51.

enterprise Britain... Given the leadership campaign was a policy

:35:52.:35:56.

free zone, what will be the most distinctive policies Ukip will stand

:35:57.:36:01.

for under Diane James? Certainly the issue of migration and immigration,

:36:02.:36:06.

certainly the issue of defence, giving us back the ability to defend

:36:07.:36:10.

this country... These are existing policies? No, these need a major

:36:11.:36:17.

refresh out of EU control. The aspect of Homeland Security, the

:36:18.:36:21.

aspect we have not got a functioning Border Force, we have not got a

:36:22.:36:24.

functioning passport control system, we have even got a Home Secretary

:36:25.:36:30.

continuing the project via aspect of we have even got a Home Secretary

:36:31.:36:33.

a beaver charge for people going into Europe or coming to the UK.

:36:34.:36:39.

Absolutely bizarre. I am just trying to find out what the policies will

:36:40.:36:45.

be. The major one for me, given my background, the state that the NHS

:36:46.:36:49.

is in, and if we can show a very clear vision and stand up to what

:36:50.:36:53.

Jeremy Hunt is doing in terms of decimating the NHS, I will be

:36:54.:36:58.

delighted. You will agree that is not a policy but an attitude...

:36:59.:37:11.

It is a policy in terms of the NHS. We don't know about the policy

:37:12.:37:15.

because you refused to debate with other candidates during the

:37:16.:37:16.

leadership campaign and campaigned on a no policy platform, white? I

:37:17.:37:19.

launched my own series of national events, nationwide, and I gave

:37:20.:37:23.

members and activists, and, in fact, the press, the media, anybody who

:37:24.:37:26.

wanted to come along, there was not a bar in terms of membership only,

:37:27.:37:32.

to come along and interact with me for two hours. That gave

:37:33.:37:36.

individuals, all of the members in the audience, a solid two hours to

:37:37.:37:40.

scrutinise what I had to say. That was a much higher quality programme

:37:41.:37:43.

that anything hustings would have given. But why not debate with your

:37:44.:37:49.

rivals? Because there was no need, we were not fighting a general

:37:50.:37:53.

election, we were fighting, if you wish to use the phrase, to elect the

:37:54.:37:57.

new leader of Ukip, and I chose to go direct to the members, to

:37:58.:38:00.

interact with them directly and give them quality time with me and

:38:01.:38:05.

respond to all of their questions. Many think Ukip's best chance is to

:38:06.:38:09.

win over disaffected working-class Labour voters in the north, so how

:38:10.:38:13.

does the epitome of the Home Counties bourgeoisie do that? You

:38:14.:38:21.

tell me! It is not my job. I have never heard such convoluted

:38:22.:38:25.

language! Can you simplify that so we know what you are talking about?

:38:26.:38:29.

There have been a number of leaders your party could have chosen, Paul

:38:30.:38:34.

Nuttall, Steven Woolfe, who would have had a clear, more distinct

:38:35.:38:39.

appeal to the north. Paul Michael chose not to stand. You need to ask

:38:40.:38:46.

him his reason. I'm just asking how you will appeal to the North. Steven

:38:47.:38:52.

Woolfe, a superb colleague of mine, regretfully there were issues in

:38:53.:38:55.

terms of getting his information in in time. The point I have made

:38:56.:38:59.

throughout my programme of events is that I want to have two chiefs of

:39:00.:39:04.

staff, people who will ably assist me in developing our programme, our

:39:05.:39:07.

policies, our strategy is to appeal both to the north and also the

:39:08.:39:11.

policies, our strategy is to appeal south. What will you do about Wales,

:39:12.:39:15.

where Ukip seems to be involved in civil war? I will ask Neil Hamilton

:39:16.:39:28.

to focus on Welsh Assembly, on winning the elections in Wales, and

:39:29.:39:31.

I will ask Nathan to continue doing a superb job he does in terms of

:39:32.:39:33.

representing Wales in the European Union and Parliament, and in the

:39:34.:39:36.

voting in Strasbourg. So you will have two Kings? No, Nathan has my

:39:37.:39:39.

complete and utter support, he has had a huge legacy in terms of his

:39:40.:39:43.

membership, a huge wealth of knowledge in terms of the issues

:39:44.:39:48.

facing Wales if Mrs May does not action about to leave the European

:39:49.:39:54.

Union. He has got my full support. Neil, I am asking you, step up to

:39:55.:40:00.

the plate, but focus on Wales and the assembly. One of your party's

:40:01.:40:06.

main funders was an errant banks, in the process of turning leave. EU

:40:07.:40:12.

into a momentum of the right, to mirror the Jeremy Corbyn movement on

:40:13.:40:16.

the left, do you have a problem with that? I have just been elected head

:40:17.:40:27.

of a political party. If he wishes to support a political movement,

:40:28.:40:31.

that is his decision. Other than Vladimir Putin, who is your main

:40:32.:40:36.

political hero? Certainly not Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton. I did not

:40:37.:40:41.

ask who was not, who is? I cannot think of anybody apart from Margaret

:40:42.:40:45.

Thatcher and Winston Churchill. think of anybody apart from Margaret

:40:46.:40:48.

Putin, Churchill and Thatcher. We hope to see you again. Thank you.

:40:49.:40:53.

It's just gone 11.40, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:40:54.:40:59.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:41:00.:41:01.

The man charged with improving education in Scotland tells this

:41:02.:41:10.

programme money may soon be sent directly to schools,

:41:11.:41:12.

And I'll be asking the leader of the fifth largest party

:41:13.:41:17.

in the Scottish Parliament if the Liberal Democrats can avoid

:41:18.:41:21.

But first, it's two years to the day since the Independence referendum,

:41:22.:41:27.

billed at the time by senior members of the SNP as a

:41:28.:41:30.

Well, two years really is a long time in politics.

:41:31.:41:34.

Since 2014 we've seen the return of a majority Conservative

:41:35.:41:36.

government and Britain voting to leave the European Union.

:41:37.:41:39.

Yes campaigners were out yesterday campaigning for another

:41:40.:41:41.

No campaigners were also out, arguing against another referendum.

:41:42.:41:48.

Well, I'm joined now by David Mundell,

:41:49.:41:49.

He made a speech yesterday arguing another referendum is that last

:41:50.:41:54.

Despite what you are arguing, Alex Salmond says the British Government

:41:55.:42:07.

will mess up Brexit, and there will be another referendum within two

:42:08.:42:13.

years. I think it is quite clear now that the SNP position is

:42:14.:42:16.

independence at any cost. The pretence we had two years ago that

:42:17.:42:19.

somehow independence would be economically beneficial, but it

:42:20.:42:24.

would lead to prosperity in Scotland, has been abandoned. It is

:42:25.:42:27.

clear that Mr Salmond and others just want independence. That is

:42:28.:42:31.

quite clearly what they are obsessed about, regardless of the fact that

:42:32.:42:35.

they signed the Edinburgh agreement to say that the result of the

:42:36.:42:39.

referendum would be respected, despite saying immediately before

:42:40.:42:42.

the referendum that it would be a once in a generation event. People

:42:43.:42:47.

in Scotland have voted decisively to remain in the United Kingdom. We

:42:48.:42:51.

need to respect that and get on with the other challenges we face, such

:42:52.:42:55.

as the day-to-day business of taking forward the Scottish Government's

:42:56.:42:59.

programme. We should be focusing on that. In terms of Brexit, we did to

:43:00.:43:03.

come together, Scottish Government and UK Government, to get the best

:43:04.:43:09.

possible deal for Scotland. In an article today in one of the

:43:10.:43:12.

newspapers, Ruth Davidson says she agrees with Jim Sellers that the SNP

:43:13.:43:17.

Government has no mandate for another referendum. But both Ruth

:43:18.:43:25.

Davidson herself and indeed you yourself have said previously on

:43:26.:43:28.

this programme that you think the British Government should not stop a

:43:29.:43:33.

second referendum if the SNP Government wants to have one. Is

:43:34.:43:40.

that still your position? Our position is quite clear. Of course

:43:41.:43:42.

there could be another referendum. That is the sort of process issue

:43:43.:43:47.

that the SNP want to get involved in. The argument is whether there

:43:48.:43:51.

should be another referendum. And Ruth Davidson and I are absolutely

:43:52.:43:57.

clear, as is Theresa May, as is the majority of people in Scotland, that

:43:58.:43:59.

there should not be another referendum. There is an opinion poll

:44:00.:44:04.

today that shows two thirds of people, even a significant number of

:44:05.:44:07.

people who support independence, saying that they do not want to go

:44:08.:44:12.

back to the division and divisiveness that the independence

:44:13.:44:15.

referendum brought. We made the decision, it was supposed to be a

:44:16.:44:18.

once in a generation decision, let's stick by that and move on. And let's

:44:19.:44:26.

come together so that working together, the UK Government and

:44:27.:44:29.

Scottish Government, can get the best possible deal for Scotland and

:44:30.:44:32.

the UK out of these wrecks it negotiations. Later in this

:44:33.:44:37.

programme we have an interview with the leader of the Scottish Liberal

:44:38.:44:40.

Democrats, Willie Rennie, in that interview he says it would be

:44:41.:44:45.

disgraceful if members of Parliament were not given a vote on the final

:44:46.:44:52.

deal on Brexit. Is he right? I've made it clear that Parliament both

:44:53.:44:57.

in Scotland and the UK will have a significant say over the

:44:58.:45:03.

negotiations for leaving the EU. The parliament will not be a negotiating

:45:04.:45:08.

the deal. It will be for the Government to negotiate the deal.

:45:09.:45:13.

But Parliament will have a say, and will inevitably be involved in the

:45:14.:45:16.

legislative necessities which will follow from the exit from the EU. It

:45:17.:45:21.

is wrong to suggest that argument will not be significantly involved

:45:22.:45:26.

in scrutinising and having a say in the EU negotiations and the final

:45:27.:45:30.

agreement. Will the British Parliament be able to vote yea or

:45:31.:45:35.

nay on the final deal for leaving the European Union? Parliament will

:45:36.:45:43.

be part of the process in terms of scrutinising that, holding the

:45:44.:45:44.

be part of the process in terms of Government to account. But this was

:45:45.:45:48.

a decision by the British public over the whole of the United Kingdom

:45:49.:45:52.

that the United Kingdom should leave the EU, and that is the UK

:45:53.:45:56.

Government's mandate for negotiating agreement. That agreement will

:45:57.:46:03.

inevitably involve legal processes, probably legislation, to enable the

:46:04.:46:07.

agreements to be implemented, and of course Parliament will have the

:46:08.:46:12.

decisive say over that legislation. So Parliament will be able to say

:46:13.:46:13.

yea or nay to the final deal on the So Parliament will be able to say

:46:14.:46:18.

European Union common leaving, is that what you are saying? I think

:46:19.:46:25.

I've explained twice that Parliament will be involved in the process. It

:46:26.:46:31.

is already begun, both in Scotland and Westminster, where there have

:46:32.:46:34.

been significant debates already. There have been questions,

:46:35.:46:38.

scrutiny... You said this before, but... That process will continue

:46:39.:46:45.

throughout. At the end of the process, what I've just said, is

:46:46.:46:49.

that clearly legislation will inevitably flow from bidding

:46:50.:46:53.

agreement into place, and Parliament will have the final say on that. But

:46:54.:46:58.

Parliament will not have the final say on whether Britain leaves the

:46:59.:47:01.

EU. The British people have made that decision, and the Government

:47:02.:47:06.

will implement it. So you don't foresee the Government at some point

:47:07.:47:09.

coming back to Parliament and saying, we have had negotiations

:47:10.:47:14.

with the European Union, here is what the deal is, you can accept or

:47:15.:47:19.

reject it? I expect that the Government will keep both

:47:20.:47:24.

parliaments fully involved in the process as the negotiations

:47:25.:47:28.

continue, and allow them to scrutinise the deal. But it will be

:47:29.:47:32.

for the Government to determine the deal. The British people have

:47:33.:47:36.

mandated them to do that through voting to leave the EU in our

:47:37.:47:42.

referendum. Many people would argue that what you are saying, which is

:47:43.:47:47.

that in effect there will be no chance for Parliament to reject a

:47:48.:47:51.

final deal on leaving the European Union, is quite a fundamental

:47:52.:47:56.

undermining of British Parliamentary democracy. We have had a referendum,

:47:57.:48:05.

adding that referendum people across the UK voted to leave the EU. The

:48:06.:48:09.

Government respects that verdict and will implement it. Just as, if two

:48:10.:48:15.

years ago today, Scotland has voted to leave the United Kingdom. That

:48:16.:48:18.

decision would have been implemented. And some of the very

:48:19.:48:24.

people who are at the forefront of alleged outrage at Parliamentary

:48:25.:48:26.

scrutiny of this deal would have been making absolute hay and call

:48:27.:48:36.

them if they thought the UK Parliament could override the

:48:37.:48:41.

referendum result. The referendum results are mandates to the

:48:42.:48:43.

Government to carry out the wishes of the people, and that is what we

:48:44.:48:49.

are doing. Can I ask, this idea that Parliament will not have a final

:48:50.:48:53.

chance to reject a Brexit deal, whatever that deal should turn out,

:48:54.:48:57.

is this something you have discussed in Cabinet? Is this the position of

:48:58.:49:06.

the British Cabinet? The Government and to Reza may have made it quite

:49:07.:49:11.

clear that Parliament -- Government and to Reza may have made it clear

:49:12.:49:16.

that there will not be a second referendum to override the decision

:49:17.:49:20.

to leave the youth. Parliament and indeed the Scottish Parliament will

:49:21.:49:24.

be fully involved in scrutinising this process as negotiations

:49:25.:49:29.

proceed, although there will not be a running commentary on

:49:30.:49:33.

negotiations, and there will not be negotiation by Parliament, but

:49:34.:49:39.

Parliament will be fully involved. As I explained in my previous

:49:40.:49:42.

answers, Parliament will of course have to pass legislation in relation

:49:43.:49:49.

to the likely process of except from the EU, and Parliament will have the

:49:50.:49:53.

definitive say in relation to those arrangements. But what it won't be

:49:54.:49:58.

able to do, it will not be able to override the will of the British

:49:59.:50:04.

people to leave the EU. We will have to live there. David Mundell, thank

:50:05.:50:05.

you for joining us. The Scottish Government has

:50:06.:50:11.

made its defining mission for this Parliamentary term the closing

:50:12.:50:13.

of the attainment gap It wants to turn around a schools

:50:14.:50:15.

system which is failing pupils But critics fear this is just

:50:16.:50:19.

a twin-pronged attack on councils, which are fiercely protective

:50:20.:50:23.

of their pivotal role A little earlier I spoke to

:50:24.:50:25.

the Eduction Secretary John Swinney. Before we talk about education, we

:50:26.:50:41.

should mention the second anniversary of the independence

:50:42.:50:44.

referendum. Alex Salmond has been saying another one in two years,

:50:45.:50:49.

Nicola Sturgeon wrote a piece this morning she did not mention a time

:50:50.:50:53.

frame. What is your view? I think the debate about independence is

:50:54.:50:59.

still a dominant part of Scottish politics, because the events of the

:51:00.:51:03.

last few months have brought all the issues of the democratic choice of

:51:04.:51:07.

the people of Scotland into focus with the decision of the UK to leave

:51:08.:51:10.

the European Union, against the wishes of the people of Scotland. So

:51:11.:51:15.

I think the debate is very much alive. The First Minister has set

:51:16.:51:19.

out clearly that our priority is to negotiate the protection of

:51:20.:51:22.

Scotland's relationship with the EU, but that is not able to be achieved,

:51:23.:51:27.

then the option of an independence referendum is highly likely as a

:51:28.:51:31.

consequence. Within two years, Alex Salmond says. Do you agree? I think

:51:32.:51:37.

it is dependent very much on the negotiations take a lease with the

:51:38.:51:41.

UK Government and the European Union on the UK's exit from the European

:51:42.:51:46.

Union. Those timescales are difficult to nail down at this

:51:47.:51:49.

stage, but undoubtedly the approach the First Minister has taken off

:51:50.:51:53.

saying that our priority is to protect our EU membership for

:51:54.:51:56.

Scotland, even that that is what people voted for in the referendum

:51:57.:52:01.

back in June, we have to prioritise that, and that is exactly what the

:52:02.:52:04.

Government has been doing. It is why Mike Russell was in Europe during

:52:05.:52:09.

the week taking four of those negotiations, and the outcome of

:52:10.:52:13.

those negotiations will create the conditions as to whether there is

:52:14.:52:16.

another independence referendum and when that might take place. In your

:52:17.:52:23.

new job running education, you announced last week in review of the

:52:24.:52:27.

way that schools are run, and you said you wanted to devolve

:52:28.:52:30.

decision-making to schools. I am curious to get some examples of the

:52:31.:52:33.

kind of thing where you want evolution to schools. What I have

:52:34.:52:41.

started is a discussion with the whole of the public in Scotland, a

:52:42.:52:47.

very wide and open consultation, based on the principle that I

:52:48.:52:50.

believe it is in the best interests of the educational journey of young

:52:51.:52:54.

people in Scotland if decisions about their education are taken as

:52:55.:52:57.

close to those young people as possible, within schools. I want to

:52:58.:53:02.

open up a debate about what are the right issues, the right questions,

:53:03.:53:06.

the right decisions that should be taken close to young people in

:53:07.:53:10.

schools, which decisions should be taken at another level. I understand

:53:11.:53:16.

that, I am curious as to the sort of examples you may people together of

:53:17.:53:18.

things that could be devolved to schools. It might be choices about

:53:19.:53:24.

the commissioning of particular services to come into schools. To

:53:25.:53:28.

give you an example, I visited a school the other week with a have a

:53:29.:53:31.

particular challenge for primary children who have a vocabulary gap

:53:32.:53:36.

when the primary children come to school in the first place, and the

:53:37.:53:39.

school has taken decisions within the reports as available to them to

:53:40.:53:43.

have a speech therapist available, not a referral, but in the classroom

:53:44.:53:50.

all the time, helping young people to overcome challenges they face in

:53:51.:53:53.

vocabulary. That is one practical example of where a headteacher is

:53:54.:53:56.

able to take decisions about resources that are available to them

:53:57.:54:01.

to take a very specific different course to ones that might be taken

:54:02.:54:07.

in other schools. That is what the children in that school require the

:54:08.:54:11.

most. It is decisions of that nature, decisions that will make a

:54:12.:54:13.

difference to the educational achievement of young people. There

:54:14.:54:17.

is some concern among local authorities that they may lose

:54:18.:54:24.

power. Is it your intention that decisions which are present made by

:54:25.:54:27.

local authorities should no longer be made by them? There may be some

:54:28.:54:33.

decisions taken by local authorities that would be taken by schools

:54:34.:54:40.

instead. For example, if further financial flexibility is devolved to

:54:41.:54:42.

individual schools and they are able to take decisions about the way

:54:43.:54:46.

resources are used within schools, then conceivably some of these

:54:47.:54:49.

decisions would have been taken by local authorities in the past. That

:54:50.:54:56.

would mean money going directly to schools and bypassing local

:54:57.:55:01.

authorities. That is what we will consult about as part of the

:55:02.:55:05.

governance review, it is an exercise that will be undertaken in March

:55:06.:55:08.

next year. It is entirely conceivable that is what would

:55:09.:55:11.

happen, because it would give schools the ability to take

:55:12.:55:14.

decisions that relate directly to the educational opportunities for

:55:15.:55:17.

young people in Scotland. But I have also made it clear that I want local

:55:18.:55:22.

authorities to retain democratic control over education services

:55:23.:55:25.

within Scotland, but that I want to encourage a much greater degree of

:55:26.:55:28.

cooperation between local authorities in how the use their

:55:29.:55:33.

services to add value to the educational experience of young

:55:34.:55:39.

people. What would your reply Peter local authorities who would say, if

:55:40.:55:43.

money is going to go directly from central Government to schools and

:55:44.:55:46.

bypass local authorities as you have just said is quite conceivable under

:55:47.:55:50.

what you're suggesting, they would say, that does erode, the democratic

:55:51.:55:56.

accountability of schools to local authorities.

:55:57.:56:05.

There has to be democratic accountability in all aspects of our

:56:06.:56:14.

public services, and part of the consultation is exploring exactly

:56:15.:56:18.

how we can take that forward to ensure that we have that

:56:19.:56:31.

relationship of accountability. But fundamentally the question that the

:56:32.:56:37.

consultation is asking is how can we best structure Scottish education in

:56:38.:56:42.

a way that ensures the key educational relationship between

:56:43.:56:44.

teachers and pupils is enhanced and supported by the intervention of

:56:45.:56:46.

other bodies and institutions? That is not just about local authorities,

:56:47.:56:48.

that is about education in Scotland, the inspectorate, the involvement of

:56:49.:56:50.

government, the involvement of a whole range of other players to make

:56:51.:56:56.

sure we get the right balance to support and develop education within

:56:57.:56:58.

Scotland. You have ruled out selective schools and grammar

:56:59.:57:01.

schools in your review. But would it be possible for some schools to be

:57:02.:57:04.

organised outside local authority control, for example by trusts

:57:05.:57:09.

formed off parents and teachers? It is not part of my proposition or

:57:10.:57:14.

make plans I have set out this week. What I am asking is how do we take

:57:15.:57:19.

forward the best structuring of Scottish education within a system

:57:20.:57:24.

of local democratic accountability, but by empowering schools to take

:57:25.:57:29.

more decisions about the opportunities and challenges that

:57:30.:57:31.

face young people in the education system? It does not form part of my

:57:32.:57:36.

plans that such an approach would be taken because I believe that every

:57:37.:57:40.

community in the country, young people should be entitled to go into

:57:41.:57:47.

it a school and receive an education that will be delivered in an

:57:48.:57:48.

atmosphere of excellence within that atmosphere of excellence within that

:57:49.:57:54.

-- within an atmosphere of equity, where we can challenge the

:57:55.:57:58.

attainment gap and close it, and where we can support young people to

:57:59.:58:01.

achieve their potential, no matter where they enter the education

:58:02.:58:03.

system in Scotland. The new regional education board, you have referred

:58:04.:58:07.

to them already, will they have any formal role in the way schools are

:58:08.:58:12.

run, or are they for exchanging ideas? The issue I am raising there

:58:13.:58:20.

is about the quality and strength of the support service that can be

:58:21.:58:25.

provided, principally on educational issues, to enhance educational

:58:26.:58:28.

opportunities in individual schools. So what I want to encourage, and

:58:29.:58:38.

this is largely a responds to the OECD report, to strengthen the

:58:39.:58:43.

middle of Scottish education, to encourage local authorities to work

:58:44.:58:46.

together, to strengthen the support services in place to develop

:58:47.:58:51.

educational potential within Scottish schools, and make sure

:58:52.:58:57.

young people are beneficiaries as a consequence. So the proposals at a

:58:58.:59:01.

collaboration between local authorities. They are not an extra

:59:02.:59:05.

level of authority, they are collaboration between authorities to

:59:06.:59:08.

make sure support services to education are strengthened as a

:59:09.:59:12.

consequence. Your main task and the task Nicola Sturgeon has set herself

:59:13.:59:18.

is to reduce the so-called attainment gap. She wants to be

:59:19.:59:23.

judge on that. This might sound like a really daft question, but what is

:59:24.:59:30.

it we are measuring here? Because attainment gap could mean the

:59:31.:59:32.

difference between the lowest performing pupils and the best

:59:33.:59:36.

performing in each individual school, or the difference across

:59:37.:59:41.

Scotland, or it could mean the number of students from lower income

:59:42.:59:46.

backgrounds which end up going on to university. What is your definition

:59:47.:59:53.

of the attainment gap? Firstly, there is nothing wrong with there

:59:54.:59:58.

being a number of different measures of the attainment gap within

:59:59.:00:03.

Scotland, because on almost all the measures you mentioned, they are all

:00:04.:00:04.

legitimate measures to be measures you mentioned, they are all

:00:05.:00:07.

considered. Essentially what we have to demonstrate its progress on a

:00:08.:00:11.

number of fronts because the attainment gap could be measured as

:00:12.:00:17.

the vocabulary gap of children who enter primary one. That could be one

:00:18.:00:23.

major of the attainment gap, another major could be the proportion of

:00:24.:00:26.

young people from deprived backgrounds going to higher

:00:27.:00:31.

education compared to young people from more comfortable backgrounds.

:00:32.:00:35.

So there is a variety of different measures. Presumably you will

:00:36.:00:37.

publish benchmarks you want to attain so that we can judge whether

:00:38.:00:43.

you have a paying them. We cannot do what Nicola Sturgeon wants to judge

:00:44.:00:47.

her on this, unless we know what we are judging. That is precisely

:00:48.:00:51.

correct, which is why the National improvement framework has been set

:00:52.:00:55.

out and why we are gathering the information to inform the National

:00:56.:00:57.

improvement framework and will publish some of this material later

:00:58.:01:02.

this year which will show, essentially, one starting point for

:01:03.:01:07.

that assessment, and then we will be able to look at comparative data

:01:08.:01:10.

over the next few years to see how much progress has been made, then we

:01:11.:01:15.

will be able to be judged on that. The clear point I would make is that

:01:16.:01:18.

there are a number of specific measures of the attainment gap, and

:01:19.:01:23.

that is not good enough to close one of them but not the others, we have

:01:24.:01:28.

to close all elements of the attainment gap, which is why the

:01:29.:01:30.

national improvement framework has been established, to gather the data

:01:31.:01:34.

together, to publish it and have an open conversation about our

:01:35.:01:36.

performance in tackling that, and to put in place the resources and

:01:37.:01:43.

mechanisms to make sure we are successful.

:01:44.:01:54.

Rate, I am now strapped into a seat so I cannot wonder about aimlessly!

:01:55.:02:02.

In the space of five years they went from coalition government to having

:02:03.:02:05.

In Holyrood, where once too they helped run the country,

:02:06.:02:09.

they're now the fifth party behind the Greens.

:02:10.:02:11.

So when the Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron claimed yesterday

:02:12.:02:13.

that the party is now "stronger and more relevant than ever",

:02:14.:02:16.

you'd be forgiven for thinking that all the pressure may have driven him

:02:17.:02:19.

A little earlier I spoke to the Scottish Liberal Democrat's

:02:20.:02:22.

Even the most optimistic Liberal Democrat standing in the sunshine

:02:23.:02:29.

could not claim things were going well for the party at the moment.

:02:30.:02:34.

How was this conference going to change things round? Well, 20,000

:02:35.:02:43.

new members, games from the SNP in the Scottish elections, vibrancy

:02:44.:02:45.

following the Brexit thought that we are the party that stands up for the

:02:46.:02:51.

UK and the European Union together means that we're in the best we have

:02:52.:02:57.

been for some time. So I am very optimistic and especially because we

:02:58.:03:03.

are in the sunshine in Brighton. But you say that Europe is going to be

:03:04.:03:07.

your big issue, that is the main thing you're going to focus on? That

:03:08.:03:13.

is the big aspect that has divided the country. That, combined with

:03:14.:03:17.

Nicola Sturgeon's clear determined effort to seek independence in the

:03:18.:03:22.

middle of all this turmoil. I think what we should be doing is setting

:03:23.:03:28.

forward a very clear message that Scotland is best placed in the

:03:29.:03:32.

United Kingdom and also in the European Union, and Liberal

:03:33.:03:36.

Democrats are unique in standing for that with a progressive platform, we

:03:37.:03:41.

are united in that support. So the combination of all those issues

:03:42.:03:43.

means we are rejecting the dismal prospect of the division that is

:03:44.:03:49.

proposed by the SNP and the Tories on the constitution. You say there

:03:50.:03:53.

is a divide between you and the SNP in Europe. The SNP Government here

:03:54.:03:59.

is arguing for staying in the single market. You presumably would agree

:04:00.:04:08.

with that? Of course we would agree that we should be in the single

:04:09.:04:12.

market, but not for one minute do I believe Nicola Sturgeon is doing

:04:13.:04:15.

this because she is pro-European, she is doing this because she wants

:04:16.:04:20.

independence, that is what has driven her household -- driven her

:04:21.:04:29.

whole elliptical life. I reject it. I do not believe her pronouncements

:04:30.:04:35.

on the European Union because it is for her, all about independence.

:04:36.:04:40.

Yes, but what you're seeing now is there is nothing to differentiate

:04:41.:04:44.

the SNP on the issue of Europe itself, it is just that you do not

:04:45.:04:49.

agree with independence. Yes, but what I would not trust is an SNP

:04:50.:04:55.

leader who is driven by the desire to break up Britain rather than

:04:56.:05:01.

having the best possible relationship with the European

:05:02.:05:05.

Union. I want somebody who can aspire to have the best possible

:05:06.:05:10.

solution, which is to be in the United Kingdom and the European

:05:11.:05:14.

Union, and that is what Liberal Democrats are uniquely fighting for.

:05:15.:05:17.

In the elections in May, we set forward a very progressive upbeat

:05:18.:05:24.

platform on investing in mental health services, having the best

:05:25.:05:29.

education system in the world, guaranteeing our civil liberties and

:05:30.:05:31.

protecting the environment. We wanted that to be the focus over

:05:32.:05:36.

this next political period. But as a result of the Tory chaos and the SNP

:05:37.:05:47.

desire to return to the independence referendum... We want to get back on

:05:48.:05:51.

with the day job of making Scotland one of the best countries in the

:05:52.:05:55.

world again. What are you arguing for, another referendum, for a

:05:56.:05:59.

parliamentary vote on the final deal, or what? We are very clear,

:06:00.:06:04.

what we want is the British people to have a say on whatever deal the

:06:05.:06:10.

Conservative government negotiate with the European Union. That means

:06:11.:06:16.

a referendum? Yes. What we did not know on the 23rd of June was exactly

:06:17.:06:22.

what Brexit would mean. I think when the detail becomes clear it would be

:06:23.:06:25.

only right for the British people to have a say on what the final deal

:06:26.:06:32.

is. It is the only democratic thing we should be doing, which is why we

:06:33.:06:36.

would support another referendum, not to rerun the referendum on the

:06:37.:06:40.

23rd of June, but to have a final say on the deal that is agreed.

:06:41.:06:44.

There have been some suggestions that not only should there not be

:06:45.:06:48.

another referendum, but that Parliament will not be able to vote

:06:49.:06:53.

on a final deal, at least it won't be able to veto a final deal on

:06:54.:06:59.

would your reaction be to that idea? would your reaction be to that idea?

:07:00.:07:06.

-- what would your reaction be? There is a lot of discussion going

:07:07.:07:08.

-- what would your reaction be? on, we will need to see what comes.

:07:09.:07:13.

But what I think would be a disgrace would be if the Conservative

:07:14.:07:15.

Government was to deny Parliament and the British people are final say

:07:16.:07:19.

on the deal. They did not know the deal on the 23rd of June. When we do

:07:20.:07:23.

know the deal, that is when we should have a say on future. We

:07:24.:07:27.

should be arguing that we should be remaining in the European Union

:07:28.:07:32.

because it is the best thing for Scotland and Britain. Thank you very

:07:33.:07:33.

much indeed, Willie Rennie. Tend to look back to the events of

:07:34.:07:37.

the past week, and see what's Here with me now are the journalist

:07:38.:07:45.

David Torrance and the former Shadow Scottish Secretary Margaret

:07:46.:07:49.

Curran. First of all, what David Mandel and

:07:50.:07:57.

Willie Rennie were saying about this process of exactly how Brexit is

:07:58.:08:01.

going to happen is becoming more mysterious. I think it is just

:08:02.:08:07.

another illustration of just how little preparation those that were

:08:08.:08:11.

arguing for a Brexit gave to the whole process and shows that a

:08:12.:08:14.

referendum obviously does not -- some things doesn't solve a problem.

:08:15.:08:19.

It is hard to argue that Parliament can have no say in how the final

:08:20.:08:24.

policy evolves, whatever the final deal is. You need to have some

:08:25.:08:31.

parliamentary scrutiny. You cannot overtime the national decision of a

:08:32.:08:36.

referendum, but there must be some role to get into the detail. You

:08:37.:08:40.

cannot like a Prime Minister and Boris Johnson make deals... That is

:08:41.:08:51.

going to be a big argument has it all unravels. I think a lot of MPs

:08:52.:08:55.

would probably accept that they will not be able to reverse the decision

:08:56.:08:59.

of the referendum, but I suspect a lot of them think they will be able

:09:00.:09:03.

to say yes or no to whatever the deal is? Yes, but obviously that

:09:04.:09:07.

would come much further down the line, at 2019, assuming it is

:09:08.:09:13.

triggered. But this is being disputed, if it will be triggered in

:09:14.:09:19.

January or February. The European act in 1992 the way -- 1972, needs

:09:20.:09:28.

to be repealed, and that cannot be done in parliament. I am not sure

:09:29.:09:31.

how they will get round that. I am not sure it is straightforward.

:09:32.:09:35.

Isn't the way round it in technical parliamentary terms the Vote Leave

:09:36.:09:41.

the European Union is a simple repeal, and ideal on a new trade

:09:42.:09:49.

relationship is actually a different piece of legislation? Referendum is

:09:50.:09:52.

at advisory constitution is, and that cannot repeal legislation.

:09:53.:10:01.

Bashley at advisory constitution only. Presumably there is a lot to

:10:02.:10:08.

the place if you just come out, there is a lot of laws that have to

:10:09.:10:14.

be addressed and presumably put on the agenda. I do not think David

:10:15.:10:16.

Mandel was suggesting Parliament would not have a vote on that, but

:10:17.:10:20.

the suggestion that there was no definitive vote on the final deal.

:10:21.:10:27.

It will be interesting to see our Parliament works around that. There

:10:28.:10:35.

is not a majority in both houses in London and Scotland for Brexit and

:10:36.:10:39.

this could reflect a degree of nervousness about putting that to a

:10:40.:10:43.

vote. Second anniversary of the independence referendum. And we're

:10:44.:10:48.

still talking to each other! It is interesting some of the newspaper,

:10:49.:10:52.

we have today about the independence referendum and back to independence

:10:53.:10:57.

being the end of everything else we do, no place for any other

:10:58.:11:01.

discussion. And I'm not sure. I don't think that will go down

:11:02.:11:04.

terribly well with people. We cannot spend all their time talking about

:11:05.:11:09.

Rexach, talking about another independence referendum on the

:11:10.:11:11.

recent much work to be done in Scotland. And I think the kind of

:11:12.:11:17.

momentum and energy that the Yes campaign understandably mobilised,

:11:18.:11:19.

and you have to acknowledge that, I think that will dissipate over a

:11:20.:11:23.

period of time. I think people are anxious for a real change. You were

:11:24.:11:29.

watching John Swinney forensically, and you thought he was being... I

:11:30.:11:33.

must admit I did not pick it up and I was talking to him, but you

:11:34.:11:35.

thought he was being rather more cautious than he appeared to be on

:11:36.:11:41.

the referendum. He repeated something which Nicola Sturgeon and

:11:42.:11:43.

other Nationalists have suggested, that they don't see Article 50 as a

:11:44.:11:49.

decision on another independence referendum. As I think I heard John

:11:50.:11:54.

Swinney say, they would have to wait and see the final deal that emerges,

:11:55.:11:59.

and that suggests that they will not make a decision about another

:12:00.:12:04.

independence referendum until 2019, not 2018 as Alex Salmond and others

:12:05.:12:07.

on the usual manoeuvres have suggested. So I think they are

:12:08.:12:11.

playing the long game on this, and abetting that has emerged, all the

:12:12.:12:14.

mood music, points to another independence referendum later rather

:12:15.:12:18.

than sooner. Which you can understand from their point of view,

:12:19.:12:22.

to some extent, because if you look at the back, it was the second

:12:23.:12:25.

referendum that actually killed a lot of the momentum for

:12:26.:12:30.

independence. So to lose a second one would be very difficult for the

:12:31.:12:34.

independence movement. So they have to be very careful and calculated.

:12:35.:12:37.

But I do think there is more mental moving. Lament in what direction? --

:12:38.:12:46.

momentum in what direction? I think the captured desire for real change

:12:47.:12:52.

and my side of the argument did not reach out to that. They did want

:12:53.:12:55.

change, they wanted a different country. Politics became less about

:12:56.:12:59.

what you're going to achieve and more the kind of people you are. You

:13:00.:13:03.

think there is momentum for having another referendum? I think people

:13:04.:13:08.

who voted Yes, a lot of people want that referendum, they want that

:13:09.:13:12.

change. Reducing to be suggesting there was momentum to having another

:13:13.:13:19.

one. Let me try to be clear. I think those that voted Yes in the

:13:20.:13:22.

referendum are very keen to have another one so that they can create

:13:23.:13:25.

that change. If you are trying to manage that in a longer-term

:13:26.:13:30.

basis... And in the background, David Torrence, the opinion polls,

:13:31.:13:34.

the suggestion earlier in the year was 60%. I think that has gone out

:13:35.:13:41.

the window. It solves have said it is an unrealisable goal, it is much

:13:42.:13:45.

too high a Pressel. They will be happy with opinion polls showing

:13:46.:13:46.

51-52 I'll be back at the

:13:47.:13:48.

same time next week.

:13:49.:13:55.

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