Browse content similar to 23/10/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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There's another candidate in the race to become Ukip's next | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
leader: Suzanne Evans, the party's former deputy chairman, | :00:41. | :00:42. | |
This man might have something to say about that. | :00:43. | :00:49. | |
Paul Nuttal was Nigel Farage's deputy for many years. | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
So is he now ready to throw his hat in the ring? | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
The battle for Mosul: the Iraqi army and its allies advane | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
on the country's second city which has been in the hands of | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
But what will be the fallout from this key clash? | :01:04. | :01:11. | |
A former SNP leader warns the party against stumbling into | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
And are the Scottish Greens about to show their true colours? | :01:16. | :01:25. | |
And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
panel in the business: Toby Young, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn - | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
The last leader was in the job a mere 18 days before she decided | :01:35. | :01:43. | |
The favourite to succeed her then quit the party after a now infamous | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
Ukip's biggest donor says the party is at "breaking point". | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
This morning, the former Deputy Chairman, Suzanne Evans, | :01:55. | :02:01. | |
announced that she would be running for the leadership. | :02:02. | :02:03. | |
I've thought long and hard about this leadership bid, | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
and one of the reasons I've perhaps delayed announcing it is | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
because I wanted to be absolutely sure that I had the support | :02:12. | :02:14. | |
And I can confirm that I have more than enough signatures | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
on the nomination form already to be able to go forward. | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
Let's not forget that 3,000 people signed a petition in support of me | :02:22. | :02:24. | |
I know head office was besieged with letters in support. | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
I would not be doing this if I didn't have the backing | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
of our members, because our members are the most important | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
Well, Paul Nuttall was Nigel Farage's deputy for many years | :02:37. | :02:44. | |
and plenty of people saw him as a leader-in-waiting. | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
Let's ask the man himself - Paul Nuttall joins me now. | :02:48. | :02:56. | |
Yes. I've made the decision that I'm going to put my name forward to be | :02:57. | :03:03. | |
the next leader of Ukip. I have huge support across the country, not only | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
amongst people at the top of the party in Westminster and with the | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
MEPs, but also the grassroots. I want to be the unity candidate. Ukip | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
needs to come together. I'm not going to gild the lily. Ukip is | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
looking over a political cliff at the moment. It will either step four | :03:22. | :03:33. | |
step back, and I want to tell us to step backwards. You say it faces an | :03:34. | :03:35. | |
ex-distension or threat, which means it's possible it has no future at | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
all. Students of political history know that political parties take a | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
long time to get going. They can disappear pretty quickly. Ukip is | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
facing an existential crisis. What happened over the summer has put us | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
on a... We could be on a spiral that we can't get off. But I believe I am | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
the man to bring the factions together, to create unity within the | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
party, and to build on the structure and get us ready for the common | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
challenges. Why didn't you stand last time? Because I have spent the | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
last four or five years of my life travelling around the country. I | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
have done more Ukip meetings than anybody else, spending a lot of time | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
away from home. With Brexit, I felt that my job and Nigel's job was done | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
and we could hand over to the next generation. That doesn't seem to be | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
the case, and maybe it's time for someone who is an old hand. I'm very | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
experienced and I know the party inside out. Maybe it's time to step | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
in and bring the party together. You told the Liverpool Echo on the night | :04:41. | :04:47. | |
of July that you didn't wish to take on Nigel Farage, you didn't want | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
that to happen to your family and friends. What has changed? The party | :04:51. | :04:59. | |
is facing an existential crisis, and I want to make sure that Ukip is on | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
the pitch to keep the ball into the open net we have in politics. We | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
have a Conservative Party who is moving toward Brexit, but we have to | :05:11. | :05:17. | |
be there too. Why would you be better than Suzanne Evans? Suzanne | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
would be an excellent candidate. I thought the 2015 manifesto was the | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
best out of all the political parties. I would be the best | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
candidate because of my experience. I am not part of any faction within | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
the party. Is she? I get on well with everybody, and I believe I | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
could be the man to bring the party together. Do you get on with Iain | :05:41. | :05:47. | |
Banks, -- Aaron Banks, who is supporting one of your rivals? Yes, | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
I get on well with him. He is able to choose whoever he wants to be the | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
next leader of the party. After November 28, the leadership | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
election, we all say, the past the past. It becomes Daisy row for the | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
new leader. We forget all that has before and move on. You won the | :06:07. | :06:13. | |
referendum. Mrs May is adopting some of your policies, like grammar | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
schools. What is the point of Ukip these days? Twofold. We don't have | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
Brexit. Mrs May said she would not invoke Article 50 until the end of | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
March, and we don't know if that will happen. We need to ensure a | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
strong Ukip to make sure that Brexit really does mean Brexit. We have a | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
huge opportunity in working class communities where the Labour Party | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
no longer represents them. I believe Ukip can become the voice of working | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
people. If you were the leader, would Ukip be a bigger threat to | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
Labour in the north or the Tories in the South? You save Labour in the | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
north, and people often to make that mistake. There's working class | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
communities right across the country is. There are working-class | :07:01. | :07:02. | |
communities in Bristol just as in Newcastle. We are second in a | :07:03. | :07:17. | |
number of northern seats, and southern seats as well, and I | :07:18. | :07:19. | |
believe the party can move into these communities. It can only do so | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
if Ukip is on the pitch, and I intend to make sure that's the case. | :07:24. | :07:25. | |
I don't think we have portrayed a good image over the summer. Is that | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
called British understatement? A bit. It is dysfunctional. We have to | :07:33. | :07:40. | |
move on beyond Nigel Farage. We have to build a strong national Executive | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
Committee. We need to ensure our branches are ready for the fight and | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
concentrate on local elections. I've got the experience. I'm now throwing | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
my hat into the ring, and I'm the only person who can keep Ukip in the | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
game. What role would you give Nigel Farage, if any? I will be the | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
candidate of compromise. I would see what Nigel wanted to do. Would you | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
keep in the leader of the freedom and democracy group in the European | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
Parliament? There would have to be compromise on both sides, and we | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
would need to talk about it. I don't know what Nigel wants to do. Do you | :08:16. | :08:23. | |
think his support, his association with Donald Trump, helps Ukip win | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
female votes in this country? Personally, I would not have gone | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
out and campaigned or said anything about Donald Trump, but I don't | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
think Ukip has come out and backed Donald Trump 100%. Personally, I | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
wouldn't have even spoken about the American election, because I think | :08:43. | :08:44. | |
the two candidates are quite appalling. Some up for us. If you | :08:45. | :08:51. | |
win, what would be the hallmark of your Ukip leadership? The first | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
couple of months would be ensuring that Ukip unifies. Saying no to | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
factions, bringing people together. Suzanne Evans, Nigel Farage, all of | :09:03. | :09:08. | |
the MEPs, and ensuring that Ukip can move forward. If we don't unify, | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
Ukip will not be around for much longer. Thanks for being with us | :09:14. | :09:14. | |
this morning. We won't have to wait too long | :09:15. | :09:16. | |
to find out who Ukip's new leader will be - | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
the winner will be announced Who would be the best leader for | :09:20. | :09:29. | |
Ukip? I think the difference between the field a few weeks ago and today | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
is that this field is a lot stronger. Whether it's Paul or | :09:34. | :09:41. | |
Suzanne, I think... It is hard to say, with Aaron Banks and apparently | :09:42. | :09:49. | |
Nigel Farage hacking another candidate, Raheem, but I want Ukip | :09:50. | :09:56. | |
to be a strong force in British politics. I think the fact there is | :09:57. | :10:03. | |
a stronger field now is good news for Ukip. Is it a Labour's worst | :10:04. | :10:10. | |
nightmare in the north of England? It is. I think the personality | :10:11. | :10:17. | |
difference and presentational difference is interesting. Suzanne | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
Evans is going for the Conservative county vote. There's a lot to be | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
taken there by Ukip. He would probably be more appealing to the | :10:26. | :10:32. | |
Labour vote. It is interesting. At the moment, pollsters say that the | :10:33. | :10:39. | |
Ukip vote splits pretty easily between Labour and Tory. But things | :10:40. | :10:50. | |
always collapse. When they have made inroads into Tower Hamlets and | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
Barking, they collapse, because they fight amongst each other so much. | :10:55. | :11:02. | |
But not always with fists! Does Ukip have a future? And who would best | :11:03. | :11:10. | |
secure that future? It does for at least two years, until we Brexit. We | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
have to believe that that will happen. That was an impressive pitch | :11:15. | :11:21. | |
there from Paul, certainly as the unity candidate, after the car crash | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
we have seen on TV screens this morning. But it doesn't go beyond | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
May 20 19. What then? There is no point being called the United | :11:32. | :11:33. | |
Kingdom Independence party any longer. What will happen after May | :11:34. | :11:40. | |
2019? If you want to hoover up votes of the back of Brexit, you need to | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
start looking further ahead than two years. The person who wins that | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
leadership contest is the person who will sum that up the best. We shall | :11:51. | :11:52. | |
see. In June 2014, the group which calls | :11:53. | :11:55. | |
itself the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant captured Iraq's | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
second city, Mosul. Later that month the group announced | :11:59. | :12:00. | |
it was establishing a 'caliphate', or an Islamic state, | :12:01. | :12:02. | |
on the territories it This week 30,000 Iraqi troops, aided | :12:03. | :12:04. | |
by Iranian-backed Shia fighters, Kurdish Peshmerga and Western air | :12:05. | :12:14. | |
support, began the assault Then they spot a truck bomb | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
from so-called Islamic State. They destroy it before | :12:20. | :12:37. | |
it destroys them. These are the first steps | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
in the battle for Mosul, the Northern Iraqi city IS has | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
made its stronghold since 2014. Controlling the city of around | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
2 million people means that they established governance, | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
they establish a territorial base. This is what has obsessed everyone, | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
because with a territorial base you are capable of doing more | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
than if you are simply an insurgency movement in the fabric | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
of another society. It's being billed as the biggest | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
military operation in Iraq since the war in 2003, the biggest | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
moment in the international effort Here is how the various forces | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
are approaching the city. Heading to Mosul from the south, | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
the elite troops of the Iraqi army. Known as the Golden division, | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
trained and accompanied From the North, a force made up | :13:29. | :13:30. | |
of Kurds, known as the Peshmerga, Also from the South, | :13:31. | :13:37. | |
a militia made up of Shia fighters who have been accused | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
of human rights abuses. British planes have bombed outlying | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
villages, reportedly guided in by British personnel | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
on the ground. To the North West, a corridor | :13:50. | :13:56. | |
has been left for some of the 3000 plus IS fighters, | :13:57. | :13:58. | |
in theory an escape route which could limit the bloodshed | :13:59. | :14:01. | |
when fighting starts in the city. We've had 4-5 days of battle | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
and it's taking place in the outlying villages | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
and there have been some successes and some failures, | :14:08. | :14:09. | |
but the momentum is building. And the real question will be | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
when the attackers get towards the city itself, | :14:13. | :14:15. | |
how strong are the defences? It will crack but it might crack | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
within 48 hours or 2-3 weeks. IS has fought back, | :14:20. | :14:26. | |
on Friday they attack sites in the city of Kirkuk, | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
including a power station. The United Nations believes hundreds | :14:31. | :14:33. | |
of thousands of families have been rounded up | :14:34. | :14:35. | |
as potential human shields. The battle could be bloody, | :14:36. | :14:38. | |
but what about when it's over? The Shia militias, the Iraqi army, | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
the Peshmerga guerrillas, some of the Turkish elements, | :14:44. | :14:45. | |
they all want a share of the action. They are in Mosul, not | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
for altruistic reasons. They are there because they want | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
to be part of whatever happens next. The biggest issue is how the Sunni | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
majority in Mosul reacts to the Shia militias which have | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
helped to liberate them. ARCHIVE FOOTAGE: When Sir Francis | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
Humphrey went to Mosul If it all seems like something | :15:05. | :15:06. | |
from the archive, when the Middle East went up in flames | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
and was then carved up, it is because that is what is | :15:11. | :15:13. | |
happening in Iraq right now. National identity has been cut | :15:14. | :15:16. | |
across by other identities such And that means that putting together | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
a so-called nation state again Almost certainly there will be | :15:22. | :15:31. | |
a new form of Kurdish state, almost certainly in northern Iraq | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
at the end of this crisis, and what is happening in Mosul | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
is a microcosm of what is happening elsewhere across the Levant | :15:41. | :15:43. | |
which is that it is melting down. Big questions, questions that | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
come after the battle. The coalition forces are advancing | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
but this is just the beginning. I'm joined now by the International | :15:51. | :15:52. | |
Development Minister Rory Stewart. In a former life he was | :15:53. | :16:02. | |
the coalition Deputy-Governor of two provinces in Southern Iraq following | :16:03. | :16:05. | |
the Iraq intervention of 2003. Is there any doubt that at | :16:06. | :16:20. | |
stage Mosul will fall to the forces of Iraq and its allies? The first | :16:21. | :16:30. | |
thing is that war is very uncertain and there are cliches about it being | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
the graveyard of predictions and we don't want to make confident | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
predictions but the basic structure is that there are 30,000 Iraqi | :16:37. | :16:45. | |
forces outside and only a few thousand Daesh fighters inside and I | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
would say it is overwhelmingly likely that the batter will one | :16:52. | :17:00. | |
STUDIO: -- the battle the won by the Iraqi forces. | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
June 2014 was a great success, they took a city of over in people and | :17:04. | :17:11. | |
they created what they tried to create a million state of 7 million | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
people, stretching across the Iraqi Syrian border, but since then they | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
have lost territory quite rapidly. Now they are losing the outskirts of | :17:21. | :17:22. | |
have lost territory quite rapidly. Mosul, and that is a fundamental | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
blow. Islamic State is all about territory and holding state, that is | :17:27. | :17:29. | |
what makes it different from Al-Qaeda. If they lose Mosul that | :17:30. | :17:36. | |
will be a cynic -- significant blow to their credibility. Hillary | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
Clinton said on Wednesday's presidential debate that when Iraqi | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
forces with their allies including the United Kingdom gain control of | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
Mosul they should continue to press into Syria to take back Raqqa which | :17:49. | :17:55. | |
is the de facto capital of the caliphate, what is left of it, do we | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
want Iraqi forces to pursue IS into Syria? Very important question. | :18:01. | :18:08. | |
Delayed in Raqqa needs to come from people on the Syrian side of the | :18:09. | :18:10. | |
border and that is an important principle -- the lead. In the end of | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
that enemy, Islamic State, is a common enemy for odd members of the | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
coalition including the Iraqi government. -- all members. There is | :18:22. | :18:28. | |
likely to be a humanitarian crisis especially if it ends up with street | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
to street fighting and IS are difficult to dislodge what are we | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
doing about that? We are doing very detailed scenario planning. It is | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
very uncertain what the scenario will be but much investment has gone | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
into creating a network of camps, refugees STUDIO: Refugee camps | :18:47. | :18:56. | |
around cash refugee camps, and that is where money, British money, ?40 | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
million has gone recently into supporting that, especially in terms | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
of medical support to people. The United nation's emergency response | :19:07. | :19:13. | |
budget is ?196 million but only one third funded which sounds like we | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
are putting up a big chunk of what is already being funded. Why is | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
that? The international committee can't say they haven't seen this | :19:22. | :19:24. | |
assault coming, and the humanitarian fallout they may see from it. You | :19:25. | :19:31. | |
are absolutely right. We have seen it coming and we have been planning | :19:32. | :19:34. | |
since debris and we have put in about ?167 million into this -- | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
planning since February. There has been a change in the nature of the | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
appeal, and if there is a lag in the accounting of it, but the money we | :19:45. | :19:47. | |
need at this stage is in place and we do have the support structure in | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
place for those refugees. You are right the United Nations is | :19:53. | :19:55. | |
continuing with its appeal and is asking for more money at the moment. | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
The converse magazine wrote this week that preparations for a big | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
exodus of people leaving the city have been made -- Economist | :20:04. | :20:09. | |
magazine. But confidence is not high in the preparations, is that a | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
unfair conclusion? If you can imagine the different scenarios, it | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
could be a few thousand and it could be a few hundred thousand coming out | :20:19. | :20:20. | |
of the city through a front line where the war is going on, that is | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
very difficult. You have to screen those people and disarm them, and | :20:27. | :20:29. | |
keep families together, and transport them and you have to bring | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
them into the refugee camps. The people working on this have been | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
working on this for long time, we have mapped the different routes we | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
have good camp infrastructure in place and we have people who have | :20:42. | :20:47. | |
worked in south to dam and other areas who are putting their | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
structures in place -- South Sudan. It is never easy but I think we have | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
done everything we can in the preparation for this. What is the | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
British role in what will probably be an even bigger issue, assuming | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
that Mosul is liberated and retaken, the humanitarian crisis is dealt | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
with, what role will we play in the rebuilding of Mosul? That will be | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
crucial to the future of Iraq, the second-biggest city and it will need | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
to be rebuilt. It will need to be rebuilt as a community as well as | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
bricks and mortar. And eight Sunni community that is not harassed by | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
the Shia. -- and eight. You are right. One of the core drivers is | :21:32. | :21:38. | |
that the Sunni community felt excluded and they did not feel they | :21:39. | :21:41. | |
have the trust from the Baghdad government. A lasting solution is | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
stopping some of Islamic State coming back, that involves making | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
sure the Sunni community have a stake in their future. That is | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
making sure that the governing structures are in place. The UK's | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
response is twofold, we have got to get the humanitarian aid right, that | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
is the short term, people who might be malnourished, coming out of the | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
front line. The second thing is working with the Iraqi government to | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
make sure that as we rebuild Mosul we do so in a way that that | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
population feels a connection to the Iraqi state. Islamic State is losing | :22:20. | :22:26. | |
territory everywhere in the Levant, it is almost finished in Iraq, we | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
think. It is down to one district in Libya, as well, just one small part | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
of the town. I suppose the risk is, if life is becoming more difficult | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
across these areas, it can start to look more in Europe and the United | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
Kingdom as a place to continue its terrorist attacks? That is a real | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
danger. You are right. This is a group which has proved over the last | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
five years very unpredictable and it changes for it quickly full stop | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
often it does unexpected things. In 2009 its predecessor had been | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
largely wiped out in Iraq and when it was under pressure in Syria it | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
went back into Iraq, and in the past it didn't hold territory but now it | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
holds territory, so you are right. There is a serious risk that as it | :23:17. | :23:19. | |
gets squeezed in the middle East it will try to pop up somewhere else | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
and Mac could include Europe and the United States -- that could. They | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
say that is something they have focused on full stop we also have a | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
big focus on counterterrorism security and making sure that we | :23:35. | :23:36. | |
keep the United Kingdom and Europe say. One final question. -- say. -- | :23:37. | :23:48. | |
safe. Maybe events in Mosul could add to the migration crisis in | :23:49. | :23:51. | |
Europe, is that a possibility? Again, you are right, we have seen | :23:52. | :23:58. | |
in Syria it can push migration, the biggest push the migration was the | :23:59. | :24:01. | |
conflict in Syria, and that's the reason why we have but so much | :24:02. | :24:04. | |
energy into getting those refugee camps in place and getting the | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
humanitarian response in place -- put so much energy. People will want | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
to remain in their homes, this is their country, but we have got to | :24:15. | :24:17. | |
make it possible for them and that means in the short term looking | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
after their shelter and in the medium to long-term making sure they | :24:22. | :24:24. | |
have livelihoods, jobs and an economic development which is why | :24:25. | :24:30. | |
our support in Iraq is in the UK National interests because it deals | :24:31. | :24:33. | |
with these issues of migration and terrorists. Thanks for joining us. | :24:34. | :24:40. | |
I'm joined now by the Shadow Defence Secretary. | :24:41. | :24:48. | |
Does Labour support British participation in this offensive? We | :24:49. | :24:59. | |
fully support the participation in this offensive, extremely important | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
move forward and we voted for this back in 2014. We are asking the | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
government question is, of course, I was asking the Secretary of State | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
this week about this very offensive but we are fully behind our RAF | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
pilots out there and be trading that has been going on to help the forces | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
on the ground. -- the training full stop that is very clear. I wonder if | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
you'll lead it shares that clarity and that position. -- is your | :25:29. | :25:35. | |
leader. This is what Jeremy Corbyn has said. | :25:36. | :25:37. | |
What's been done in Iraq is done by the Iraqi | :25:38. | :25:39. | |
government, and currently supported by the British government. | :25:40. | :25:41. | |
I did not support it when it came up. | :25:42. | :25:43. | |
Well, I'm not sure how successful it's been, because most | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
of the action now appears to be moving in to Syria, so I think we | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
He doesn't sound very supportive. The issue about Mosul, it has been | :25:51. | :25:59. | |
very carefully prepared as Rory Stewart said and I hope we have | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
learned the lessons from previous offensives where we haven't learnt | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
sufficiently, and that is going to be crucial in this context. How the | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
aftermath is going to be dealt with. Of course will stop that clip was | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
from November last year, and things have changed. Two weeks ago he told | :26:19. | :26:25. | |
the BBC" I'm not sure it is working", in reference to air | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
strikes in Iraq, but it is working. We have got to see what happens in | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
Mosul, it is a very high-risk operation, but we also have to face | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
the fact that the people there are living under tyranny at the moment. | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
We have to ask very cirrus question shall stop he says he's not sure it | :26:42. | :26:48. | |
is working, when Mosul is the last major target be cleared of Islamic | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
State in Iraq. The combination of Allied air power has worked, why is | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
he not sure it is working? Because we have seen difficulties in the | :26:58. | :27:03. | |
past. But this was two weeks ago. It is essential that the work is done, | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
both planning for the refugees as Rory Stewart referred to, but also | :27:08. | :27:09. | |
in terms of reconstruction of the city and its community as you | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
mentioned. These are vital. This was about the ability to make progress | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
with Allied air power, special forces in Iraq, on the ground, do | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
you accept so far that has a strategy that seems to be working to | :27:26. | :27:36. | |
read Iraq of Islamic -- to read Iraq of Islamic State the question of the | :27:37. | :27:45. | |
car began placement. Ulloa -- we can't be complacent. The problems | :27:46. | :27:53. | |
they are creating where ever they are urged that we must continue to | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
pursue them. This is the first time we have spoken to since you have | :27:59. | :28:01. | |
become the Shadow Defence Secretary. I hope we will have a longer | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
interview. Will Labour's next manifesto include a commitment to | :28:07. | :28:12. | |
the renewal of Trident? It will. We made that commitment in 2007, that | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
is a firm commitment and we will honour that to our coalition allies | :28:17. | :28:19. | |
and our industrial partners and that is the vote which was taken | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
democratically and repeatedly has been reaffirmed by Labour conference | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
and we are a democratic party vote up you have squared that with Jeremy | :28:28. | :28:36. | |
Corbyn? He's in favour of democracy and he understands the situation, | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
but we also want to push for the UK to play a much bigger role on the | :28:40. | :28:42. | |
international stage on multilateral disarmament talks. You were very | :28:43. | :28:49. | |
clear there, I thank you for that. Support for Trident will be in the | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
next Labour manifesto. What has happened to Labour's review of | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
Trident policy? That review has been taking place over the year, we had a | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
very clear reaffirmation in the conference boat this year, we are | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
reaffirming our commitment to Trident -- vote. The review can't | :29:07. | :29:13. | |
change that? There is a process of review and a fair number of issues | :29:14. | :29:16. | |
related to defence, all parties do this. Of course. The review can't | :29:17. | :29:23. | |
change the commitment to Trident? We are not changing the commitment to | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
Trident. Russia is now the main strategic threat to this country? It | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
is a major strategic threat and we have got to work with our Nato | :29:33. | :29:35. | |
allies very closely and make sure that we respond and that we do not | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
let things pass. For example, we should be calling out Russia for the | :29:41. | :29:43. | |
way it has been a bombing humanitarian aid and we should be | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
taking them to international court over this, but we should also be | :29:49. | :29:51. | |
taking them to international court strengthening sanctions, somewhat | :29:52. | :29:57. | |
imposed over Ukraine. We try to do that, but the Italians wouldn't let | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
us. The Italians did not want to participate in the European | :30:03. | :30:03. | |
initiative but that doesn't stop individual countries for the Britain | :30:04. | :30:10. | |
should step up? Yes, we should look at what is practical to impose. | :30:11. | :30:13. | |
Thanks for joining us. Mosul is not the only major battle | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
being waged in the Middle East. The city of Aleppo in northern Syria | :30:19. | :30:21. | |
has seen some of the heaviest bombardment since Syria's | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
five-year-long civil war began. This week Russian warships, | :30:26. | :30:28. | |
in a deliberate show of power, sailed west through the English | :30:29. | :30:31. | |
channel en route to Syria. Nato says it's Russia's "largest | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
surface deployment" since the end of the Cold War in what is thought | :30:36. | :30:38. | |
to be preparation for a final assault | :30:39. | :30:41. | |
on the besieged city of Aleppo. In the city itself fighting | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
resumed overnight - following a 3-day ceasefire - | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
with more air strikes and heavy clashes in the city's | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
rebel-held eastern districts. Almost 500 people have been | :30:55. | :30:57. | |
killed and 2,000 injured since Syrian government forces, | :30:58. | :31:00. | |
backed by Russian air strikes, This week Theresa May condemned | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
Vladimir Putin's involvement in Syria, accusing Moscow | :31:05. | :31:11. | |
of being behind "sickening atrocities" in support | :31:12. | :31:14. | |
of President Assad's regime. But European leaders are divided | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
on how to respond and, with the United States preoccupied | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
with domestic politics, President Putin senses this | :31:22. | :31:24. | |
is his moment to bring the Syrian I'm joined now by the BBC's former | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
Diplomatic and Moscow Correspondent, Bridget Kendall, who is now Master | :31:29. | :31:36. | |
of Peterhouse College in Cambridge. Welcome. Good to see you in the BBC | :31:37. | :31:49. | |
studio again. Let me put up this satellite image of Aleppo here, to | :31:50. | :31:56. | |
get an idea of the scale. It was the biggest city in Syria. It was the | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
commercial capital and a huge cultural hub as well. Almost the New | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
York of Syria, to give you an idea of its significance to the country. | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
Let me show you now how it's been divided. The rebels are now in | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
control of the eastern part, about eight miles long and three miles | :32:17. | :32:23. | |
wide there, they're in purple. They are under great attacks still. Is it | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
inevitable that that purple part falls to the regime? That is what | :32:28. | :32:36. | |
President as Saad, the Russians and the Iranians hope. The fierce | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
bombardments we have seen is part of that. I'm reminded very much in the | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
Russian tactics of what happened in grudgingly in Chechnya in 2000, when | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
the Russians said, a warning for all civilians to lead, and then they | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
went ahead and they basically raised it to the ground. They are talking | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
about Al Nusrah as being one of the rebel groups. They got rid of all of | :33:03. | :33:08. | |
the terrorists. They talk about it being an Al-Qaeda offshoot. The | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
purpose of going in is to get rid of them. You get the civilians out and | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
then you take it. But this isn't like Chechnya. It is much more | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
complex. We have seen an attempt to take Aleppo before, and then there | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
was a rebel counter offensive. It's not so certain. And there are so | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
many different parties involved. We have seen the alarm in the west of | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
the extent of the civilian casualties. There have been | :33:35. | :33:36. | |
rumblings in the west of, the United States do something? | :33:37. | :33:46. | |
Shouldn't they stop the Syrian air force? This Russian aircraft carrier | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
steaming its way towards the Eastern Mediterranean is a symbolic gesture, | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
both to its own people, but also to the West, to say, don't get involved | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
in Aleppo if we go ahead. Don't try and stop us because we could up the | :34:02. | :34:08. | |
ante. They have not been great visual pictures, because the | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
aircraft carrier looks a bit clapped out, belching out smoke! If the | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
rebel controlled area does fall, it would be seen as a great victory for | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
President as Saad and his Russian allies. What is the aim of Russia | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
here? What would they then do, if Aleppo Falls? It is part of a plan | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
that President Putin set out in his UN speech in 2014, before Russia | :34:34. | :34:39. | |
went into Syria. The aim is to put President Assad back in charge. | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
President Putin said this weekend that either is Assad in Damascus, or | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
its Al Nusrah. There is nothing in between. They want to eliminate the | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
argument for a moderate opposition. They want to make it plain that the | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
only way to get a stable Syria is to have Assad back in charge. Even sue | :34:59. | :35:06. | |
argue for a rump steak lit, leaving aside what is happening with IAS. | :35:07. | :35:15. | |
They have already said they want to have an enlarged military presence | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
at their bases. And they have a big naval base. It is. It is a chance to | :35:20. | :35:27. | |
push for this when he sees the West is being distracted and divided. | :35:28. | :35:33. | |
Europe and America, by elections and so on. Just before the US elections. | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
The Americans are worried about that, Europeans are being distracted | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
by Brexit. He can push to his maximum advantage now, before there | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
is a new US president. If they do take that part of Aleppo, and that | :35:49. | :35:58. | |
part of northern Syria, does Mr Putin want us to recognise, to | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
admit, that that is now his sphere of influence? I think the rhetoric | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
from the Russians is that they want the West to recognise that they are | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
an equal powerful partner. It's not just the US that runs the writ in | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
the Middle East. Russia is as important as it is. It is engaging | :36:19. | :36:24. | |
with Saudi Arabia and has mended fences with Turkey. Syria is the | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
place from which it can launch its message that it is a big player in | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
the Middle East. Russia wants the West to understand that this isn't a | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
country that was dismembered after the end of the Soviet Union and is | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
now a week. It is back, and it is strong. That is an important | :36:45. | :36:50. | |
message. Looking at the economy. It is in recession. GDP has been | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
falling, partly because of the price of oil. It is highly dependent on | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
hydrocarbons, and is expected to of oil. It is highly dependent on | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
fall again. Its people are falling again. People don't realise how | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
small the Russian economy is. Its GDP is about the size of Italy's. It | :37:09. | :37:14. | |
is smaller than the UK economy. Bigger than it was 15 or 20 years | :37:15. | :37:23. | |
ago. But so is Britain's does it help to take people's mind of this? | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
A huge shock to the Russian economy was a drop in the price of oil and a | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
price of gas. A drop in the price of the ruble as well. This is hurting | :37:34. | :37:39. | |
the people of Russia. On the one hand, it is the war in Syria, which | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
is very important for Russia to sort out that part of the world and | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
dispensed terrorists who might be danger to -- is dangerous to Russia. | :37:51. | :37:57. | |
But he had also has presidential election is going up. They are | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
supposed to be 2018, but some feel he will bring them forward to 2017, | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
because the economy is not doing so well. But you need a good story for | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
the Russian people. Thank you very much. | :38:12. | :38:19. | |
Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. | :38:20. | :38:21. | |
Coming up on the programme: Nicola Sturgeon publishes her draft | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
referendum bill and warns Theresa May if there's a hard Brexit | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
there will be another vote on independence. | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
We'll hear from a former SNP leader why he thinks that's | :38:32. | :38:34. | |
The Scottish Greens could scupper another independence referendum. | :38:35. | :38:44. | |
I'll be asking their leader whether they might. | :38:45. | :38:46. | |
And Pravda is coming to Edinburgh. | :38:47. | :38:47. | |
The former leader of the SNP, Gordon Wilson, has warned the party | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
to put its own house in order before going for a second referendum. | :38:54. | :38:57. | |
He fears that, with the IndyRef2 Draft Bill published, | :38:58. | :38:59. | |
there will be those in the party who'll push | :39:00. | :39:01. | |
A message was do not push for independence right now. | :39:02. | :39:15. | |
The reasons against having one is that Scotland potluck Independent is | :39:16. | :39:26. | |
unlikely to win because there a gap between ten point between 45 and 55. | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
Quite narrow territory in which to fight it. Of course if there is | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
another provocation from London which seems to be the case with | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
Theresa May and her ministers being very harsh on the consultation with | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
Scotland, who can tell what the result will be. If you go back to | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
the first referendum, then of course there will be a huge gap to begin | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
with. It started moving in favour of independence when George on spawn | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
was Chancellor of the Exchequer and started threatening Scotland that he | :39:56. | :40:03. | |
could not use the pound. For now, you do not think it should be done. | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
My preference is that over the longer times and we should focus on | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
the narrative of it. Why is God and should have it what the economic | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
advantages would be, what weaknesses we need to resolve in our society, | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
in other words to do the basic homework. People will want to know | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
and want to touch this solution and see if it is solid enough for them | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
to rely on. Of course, beyond that there is a question of identity. | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
That seems to fall into place automatically. There are dangers on | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
there? On an interview on the radio comedies said a second referendum at | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
the moment could be a waste of time. It is more than that, if they lost a | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
second referendum, it would be a waste of time and it would be | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
counter productive. That was me being dogmatic about it. Of course | :40:56. | :40:57. | |
Theresa May faces the same problem. Theresa May faces the same problem. | :40:58. | :41:04. | |
-- diplomatic about it. If she Theresa May carries on in the way | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
she is legible push Scotland towards independence. It is a gamble for | :41:10. | :41:16. | |
both sides. Your golden rule is to not have a referendum and less you | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
know you can win it. That is my preference in business and in life. | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
It is far better to be in a strong position, having laid down the | :41:26. | :41:28. | |
conditions under which it will take place and I think in the current | :41:29. | :41:35. | |
rather difficult situation of Brexit, then it is going to be a | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
very complicated question to answer. And I am not sure it can easily be | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
done over the course of our six-month referendum campaign. | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
Having said that, one of the things you have got to note is the access | :41:48. | :41:51. | |
to the single market. Nicola Sturgeon is pushing the independence | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
line as a means of kicking the British Government into looking at | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
line as a means of kicking the Scotland's needs. Scotland will | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
suffer the pretty badly if the Brexit deal does not look at our | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
particular needs in economy and society. She is quite right. | :42:09. | :42:12. | |
Unfortunately, this. Its people do not show the aim enthusiasm. Because | :42:13. | :42:20. | |
if they showed support for independence and another referendum, | :42:21. | :42:22. | |
then you would find that London's views would change very sharply. Do | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
you think before you have a referendum that 55 or 60% favour in | :42:28. | :42:35. | |
the polls is then you would need? Yes. My figure is like 55 to 60 is | :42:36. | :42:43. | |
safer territory. Like most former politicians I am fairly | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
opportunistic in these matters and things can change radically. At the | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
moment, the consensus view is that we need a bit of a buffer. Do not | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
forget that we are living in tremulous times with the UK pulling | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
out of the European Union. That is both a plus and a minus factor and | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
there are the Scottish economy declining in the last couple of | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
years because of the drop in oil revenues and oil activity affecting | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
jobs. It is not the best of time, but on other hand there are | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
challenges and there are opportunities. One must keep their | :43:20. | :43:21. | |
mind open. You would like a longer opportunities. One must keep their | :43:22. | :43:28. | |
term campaign for independence, not a referendum necessarily. But that | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
to one side. For independence. That campaign should be separated out | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
from the SNP Government, wouldn't you? I think the thing that the SNP | :43:37. | :43:43. | |
has to keep in mind is that the outcome of a referendum may be a | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
vote on it's popularity. The success of the 2014 independence referendum, | :43:50. | :43:55. | |
there was a way in which it brought together all sorts of people out of | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
the dark so to speak and into the political arena. New enthusiasms. | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
They still exist, although I suspect a lot of the phase has gone out of | :44:06. | :44:11. | |
the bottle since. We have to get them together to get the argument as | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
to why Scotland needs independence and so that they consider you to | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
their friends and family and neighbours. Also, the work has to be | :44:20. | :44:25. | |
done. My experience as a member of Parliament for 13 years was I had | :44:26. | :44:28. | |
been naive view of being elected that I had plenty of finding thing. | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
In actual fact, I was on a treadmill had no time to think will stop -- | :44:34. | :44:44. | |
plenty of time to think. The running of the management was subcontracted | :44:45. | :44:46. | |
by the SNP. Image of a priority to the question | :44:47. | :45:00. | |
of independence itself. It should be stressed that a referendum is only a | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
means to an end. It is not meant to itself. The end must be independence | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
for the point of view of the nationalist community. We have got | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
to prepare the ground so that people are persuaded that the best possible | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
thing for Scotland in the long run and the middle term is to attain | :45:20. | :45:27. | |
independence. By definition that would involve bringing in other | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
people out of the SNP. One of the reason I am asking you this is that | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
I will be talking later in this programme to Patrick Harvie, the | :45:37. | :45:39. | |
leader of the Scottish Greens. I don't know what he will save, but I | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
know there is a feeling amongst some who are in favour of the | :45:44. | :45:48. | |
independence but are not in the SNP, but they are being a bit patronised | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
and being left out. You might have a solution to that? Yes. I don't | :45:53. | :46:07. | |
think... I have relaxed with the years. There is an example, in the | :46:08. | :46:14. | |
early 70s there was a body called radio free Scotland which was | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
separate from the SNP, but worked alongside it and produced the | :46:19. | :46:24. | |
message. I would think that we don't need to separate bodies, but we | :46:25. | :46:25. | |
message. I would think that we don't need the S and the governing | :46:26. | :46:31. | |
Scotland and giving a good there. -- the S NP governing Scotland. Also | :46:32. | :46:38. | |
the economic and social case for independence. That is where we need | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
to take the voices of other people including people like Patrick Harvie | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
and the Greens. Including many others in various organisations | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
which mushroomed during the referendum. They are still there. | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
They should still be consulted and that should be a strength that that | :46:58. | :47:01. | |
should be. We have to be careful about that because too much | :47:02. | :47:04. | |
independence and that point of view should cause anarchy. There has to | :47:05. | :47:11. | |
be some guidance. The SNP should not be heavy-handed. You said in a radio | :47:12. | :47:17. | |
interview that we did that was broadcast earlier that there was | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
home to be done. We talked a bit about the deficit that Scotland | :47:22. | :47:24. | |
might have should it become independent. I should apologise, I | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
said it was 15% of GDP. It is axing 15 million pounds, it is 10% of GDP. | :47:30. | :47:37. | |
A very big number still. We should talk about how the Scottish | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
Government should head of those objections and have a more balanced | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
budget. I know that you think that the figures don't reflect the state | :47:46. | :47:52. | |
of the Scottish economy. Is woke in that interview that these civil | :47:53. | :47:55. | |
service might be cut back. That is a tiny amount of money, isn't it? The | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
civil service contributes quite a bit of money in itself. The main | :48:01. | :48:07. | |
problem I have with the civil service from experience and looking | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
at it latterly is that it is not all that efficient. I would say that an | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
efficiency drive within the civil service itself, including a drop in | :48:17. | :48:22. | |
numbers, would be desirable, whether or not you had for independence. It | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
is also a bad thing to exist solely on 1's for services. The point I was | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
making was that it may or may not be a good thing to have more efficiency | :48:35. | :48:37. | |
in this double service, but it might not address the deficit problem. It | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
is such a small amount of public spending on the civil service. What | :48:43. | :48:45. | |
people don't realise is that when you take the figures that is the | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
estimate of Scotland boss might budget, which is based upon the fact | :48:51. | :48:57. | |
that the money that is allocated to Scotland is not spent in Scotland. | :48:58. | :49:03. | |
Foreign service, defence, Social Security. Some of it of course is | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
spent in Scotland. There are things that are excluded. What we don't | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
have at the moment is a Scottish budget. I think that Scotland should | :49:12. | :49:17. | |
re-fashion it's budget to suit the realities of independent Scotland. | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
We are not a cutdown party. One more thing I want to do ask you about | :49:23. | :49:27. | |
briefly. At the Lee Mack one point you made earlier was that you said | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
briefly. At the Lee Mack one point that support for independence was | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
27% at the beginning of the referendum campaign on one of your | :49:37. | :49:43. | |
points was that why was it only 27% after seven years of SNP Government. | :49:44. | :49:45. | |
What is your answer to that question that you raise? The reason is fairly | :49:46. | :49:51. | |
simple. The SNP had been preparing for Government over a period of | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
years and in fact, it's way of looking at independence was that it | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
became a Scottish referendum party and then surprisingly found itself a | :50:01. | :50:11. | |
nobility with able to deliver. Most of the gone into the thought of | :50:12. | :50:19. | |
independence and too much money had gone into Government. If your other | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
objective and is independence, then that is exactly. That is exactly the | :50:25. | :50:30. | |
point I'm making for the future. There should be a longer term | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
established in and protection for the case for independence so we | :50:36. | :50:38. | |
don't make the mistake of the 27% as in 2014. | :50:39. | :50:45. | |
As the delegates leave the Scottish Greens conference | :50:46. | :50:50. | |
in Perth this afternoon they'll surely be musing on the party's | :50:51. | :50:52. | |
While supporting the SNP's key objective of independence, | :50:53. | :50:55. | |
they've also committed to finding new ways to wring concessions | :50:56. | :50:58. | |
Relatively small in number, they have six MSPs, the Scottish Green | :50:59. | :51:10. | |
Party are not strangers for fighting to causes close to their hearts. | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
They made a stand on council tax and fracking and then there is the | :51:15. | :51:17. | |
Scottish Government 's backing of a third runway at Heathrow and a cut | :51:18. | :51:23. | |
in air passenger duty, moves which Patrick Harvie described as | :51:24. | :51:25. | |
unthinkable. With the Scottish Greens the only Scottish party in | :51:26. | :51:28. | |
unthinkable. With the Scottish favour of independence they should | :51:29. | :51:36. | |
be in a strong position to win concessions. We would like to see | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
the SNP standing their ground on being progressive, as they claim to | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
be, to get in in previous governments. They have said some | :51:46. | :51:48. | |
good words and done a few good things but there are areas where we | :51:49. | :51:51. | |
need to keep holding their feet to the fire and that is what we will | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
do. There are other policies where we will try a nudge the SNP in the | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
right direction, the progressive direction, away from looking after | :52:01. | :52:07. | |
big business which is tempting for them. Good Green Party support in | :52:08. | :52:09. | |
parliament be conditional? Personally I would put it that way | :52:10. | :52:10. | |
parliament be conditional? but whether that will be party | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
policy I can't comment because I am not involved in that but from a | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
personal point of view I would like to see conditions. The Patrick | :52:20. | :52:21. | |
Harvie message to the SNP is to commit to meaningful progress of | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
changes and you would get our support, failed to commit and you | :52:26. | :52:28. | |
risk being remembered as a timid government. | :52:29. | :52:29. | |
Well, joining me outside his party's conference in Perth | :52:30. | :52:31. | |
is the Scottish Green's co-convener Patrick Harvie. | :52:32. | :52:38. | |
I was going to say how blessed you are being in the fair city but it | :52:39. | :52:46. | |
appears to be raining! Well, we have had mixed weather in Perth, to be | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
fair, but there has been a very good atmosphere inside the conference, | :52:52. | :52:54. | |
not only as we celebrate the election of our additional MSPs in | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
the most recent Holyrood election but prepare as well for the local | :52:59. | :53:02. | |
elections next year where we will be fielding the biggest number of | :53:03. | :53:05. | |
candidates ever and with the capacity we have grown across the | :53:06. | :53:08. | |
country to get out and campaign on a scale that has been lacking in the | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
past so we are really optimistic about the achievement of getting | :53:14. | :53:21. | |
more councillors elected right about the achievement of getting | :53:22. | :53:23. | |
across Scotland. Can I get your view on something that Gordon Wilson was | :53:24. | :53:25. | |
talking about there, where he is keen on the idea of separating a | :53:26. | :53:28. | |
campaign for independence from the SNP running the Scottish Government | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
and he talked about having perhaps initially a think tank, something | :53:33. | :53:35. | |
that is independent of the SNP, which would involve people like | :53:36. | :53:38. | |
yourselves. Presumably you would welcome that. I would welcome a kind | :53:39. | :53:44. | |
of development. One of the challenge is to get over in that is how you | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
would ensure that the multiple arguments, the many cases on | :53:50. | :53:54. | |
independence would be heard within that, rather than just one dominant | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
voice. That was one of the problems of the 2014 campaign which we have | :53:59. | :54:05. | |
said openly in the past. The diversity of arguments about what an | :54:06. | :54:08. | |
independent Scotland could be light is one of the strengths and a | :54:09. | :54:14. | |
democratic system. We should be celebrating diversity arguments as a | :54:15. | :54:16. | |
strength in our culture, not regarding it as a weakness. There | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
are different arguments to be made about what kind of policies or | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
directions or economic futures the idea of an independent Scotland | :54:27. | :54:30. | |
could encompass. Just look at the question of oil and gas. We have | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
been arguing consistently that investment in a sustainable and | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
long-term economy that can provide jobs that last for the long-term is | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
an urgent priority, instead of just pretending Matfield is coming to the | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
end of their lives will somehow lost for ever. That is not realistic. | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
end of their lives will somehow lost With your extra MSPs, which you were | :54:52. | :54:55. | |
very quick to mention, the Scottish Greens have an incredibly powerful | :54:56. | :54:59. | |
position in this Parliament. You have been talking at this conference | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
about how your support for the SNP budget would be conditional on | :55:04. | :55:08. | |
various things like fracking and air passenger duty but it is not the | :55:09. | :55:11. | |
real power you have. The real power you have is that they cannot have | :55:12. | :55:15. | |
another independence referendum unless you back them. I think it | :55:16. | :55:23. | |
would be quite wrong for any political party to use the fact of | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
minority government as something to start playing games like that. I am | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
not going to trade off our support for a policy that we agree with in | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
exchange for completely different issues. The case needs to be | :55:38. | :55:40. | |
strengthened for independence, and I would agree with Gordon Wilson on | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
that point although I do not think I would agree with all the arguments | :55:46. | :55:51. | |
he might want to put, but the case needs to be strengthened. | :55:52. | :55:54. | |
Fundamentally this is a conflict between two referendum results. Let | :55:55. | :56:03. | |
us come that a moment. The real power you have is that you can say | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
to the SNP government, if you abolish air passenger duty we won't | :56:09. | :56:13. | |
vote for a seven part around -- separate referendum. If you don't | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
abolish fracking we won't vote for a separate referendum. I've always | :56:18. | :56:20. | |
understood that independence for you as a more tactical thing and it is | :56:21. | :56:24. | |
not your obsession but it is a way of getting the green policies you | :56:25. | :56:29. | |
want, so why subordinate the green policies you want and turn | :56:30. | :56:31. | |
independence into some kind of principal? The idea of Scotland | :56:32. | :56:38. | |
becoming independent is absolutely a means to an end, and means of | :56:39. | :56:44. | |
achieving the Sarah Scotland we would be more able to deliver with | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
the powers of independence. It is not a bargaining chip. Why not? | :56:49. | :56:56. | |
Because I think it would be at Tiley unethical way to do politics. We | :56:57. | :57:02. | |
will argue the case on fracking, as we have done, and pushed the | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
Scottish Government to add underground gas to that moratoria | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
manned ban it altogether but I am confident that working alongside all | :57:11. | :57:13. | |
of those who support a ban on fracking we will achieve that. The | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
Tories piping up and say how brilliant fracking would-be helps to | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
make our case for that. On the budget we are going to argue for | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
progressive taxation and make sure that we can protect the public | :57:27. | :57:29. | |
services that we need to value in Scotland. Why would you block their | :57:30. | :57:35. | |
budget but not their referendum? It is on the referendum that you have | :57:36. | :57:38. | |
the power. Unless they give in to what you want they simply can't have | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
it. You have immense leadership when it comes to the referendum. They | :57:44. | :57:46. | |
will find people in other parties it comes to the referendum. They | :57:47. | :57:49. | |
support them on their budget but only you can deliver their | :57:50. | :57:55. | |
referendum. I think it remains to be seen whether they find more support | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
on the budget and a new Finance secretary will have to give some | :58:00. | :58:02. | |
ground from the SNP 's manifesto position if he wants to persuade | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
others to support the budget. The idea that we would drop a policy | :58:07. | :58:12. | |
that we support, the idea of supporting independence or putting | :58:13. | :58:13. | |
that we support, the idea of that to the electorate on the basis | :58:14. | :58:18. | |
of a grubby deal about other issues, I don't think that would be | :58:19. | :58:22. | |
principle that all. But we have a pro-conflict between the way | :58:23. | :58:26. | |
Scotland voted in 2014 and 2016. I know and respect that not everyone | :58:27. | :58:29. | |
who voted remain this year will suddenly want to switch and -- | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
support independence but we have to respect the fact that not everyone | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
who voted no in 2014 is willing to sit Scotland dragged out of Europe | :58:39. | :58:42. | |
against our will, surrendering rights, having rights taken away | :58:43. | :58:45. | |
from people that we did not vote to surrender. 62% of us voted to remain | :58:46. | :58:52. | |
in that mandate is being utterly disregarded by the UK Government and | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
I think the case is strong that the people of Scotland to need at least | :58:57. | :58:59. | |
the possibility of having that question put to them so that they | :59:00. | :59:03. | |
can resolve that conflict in the only way that is legitimate, a | :59:04. | :59:08. | |
democratic process, and the vote of all people, including the people who | :59:09. | :59:11. | |
were denied a vote in the EU referendum and EU nationals whose | :59:12. | :59:16. | |
lives are in turmoil as a result of that. Isn't your argument there from | :59:17. | :59:22. | |
a democratic point of view a bit iffy? To say that somehow or other a | :59:23. | :59:25. | |
a democratic point of view a bit pretty clear referendum vote that | :59:26. | :59:29. | |
was made two years ago is now cast into doubt? It is patronising to the | :59:30. | :59:34. | |
people of Scotland. Many people who voted no will say, I'm sorry, we | :59:35. | :59:38. | |
understood perfectly well what we voted for, we want to be part of the | :59:39. | :59:42. | |
United Kingdom and for you to start claiming that somehow we didn't know | :59:43. | :59:46. | |
what we were doing and therefore we have to vote again, sorry, we are | :59:47. | :59:52. | |
not having it. I don't think for a moment that people didn't know what | :59:53. | :59:56. | |
they were doing. We had a long and engaging debate in the long run up | :59:57. | :00:00. | |
to that campaign but the reality is if you voted no and then you voted | :00:01. | :00:06. | |
remain, you are not going to get what you want. We have to resolve | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
this fundamental conflict and there will be many people who voted no who | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
are willing to leave the European Union, but there are also people who | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
voted no who believed better together when they said that VoIP -- | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
voting yes would put our future in Europe at rest and voting there | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
would safeguard it. That was a piece of nonsense as many of the lies of | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
the league campaign this year were shown to be utterly spurious | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
nonsense is oh there is a real conflict, fundamental conflict, | :00:37. | :00:39. | |
between the results of the way people in Scotland voted in these | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
two referendums. Your argument might have some credibility if there had | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
been a big upsurge in the polls in favour of either having a second | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
referendum or voted for independence, but there hasn't been, | :00:52. | :00:59. | |
so a lot of people in Scotland will say, thank you very much for | :01:00. | :01:01. | |
sympathising with our alleged democratic deficit that you are just | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
making this up and we are not interested. I think the polls are | :01:05. | :01:20. | |
showing there has been movement in real directions. The UK Government | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
are taking a 52% result across the UK and turning it into a mandate for | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
Art Brexit and taking us out not only of the European Union itself | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
but also out of the single market with all the economic consequences | :01:34. | :01:36. | |
that will have four people's jobs and incomes and coal industries. We | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
have just been speaking to some of the higher education sector in | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
Scotland here at the conference who are deeply concerned about the level | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
of interest from EU students coming to study here and their ability to | :01:50. | :01:59. | |
cooperate and collaborate with higher education institutions in | :02:00. | :02:00. | |
terms of research grants and funding. Scotland has made a | :02:01. | :02:02. | |
fantastic contribution to a lot of those projects and that kind of | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
thing is being put at risk and as people see the consequences of that | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
hard Brexit, of Liam Fox and Boris Johnson and others who have no | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
regard at all for the way Scotland voted, that is what they have been | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
aiming for and we will reject that. Going back to the beginning of this | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
conversation, there seems to be an acceptance within the SNP that some | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
aspects for the prospectus of independence, including the | :02:25. | :02:27. | |
currency, were not really convincing enough. We have had the collapse in | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
oil prices and the risk of a large deficit in Scotland. Everyone is | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
saying these issues must be addressed but the problem seems to | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
be that they are not, as a matter of fact being addressed, are they? We | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
are not getting answers. Well, the Scottish Green Party I think are the | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
only party who made any credible effort to suggest a credible | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
economic path of Scotland that ends our reliance on fossil fuels but | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
invest in economies and industries that will create the jobs that | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
communities, particularly those most reliant on fossil fuels, they need | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
to see a positive future rather than, as with previous ways of | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
deindustrialisation, people being left on the economic scrapheap. We | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
are also trying to do work and we will continue that this year on the | :03:15. | :03:16. | |
are also trying to do work and we alternatives of currency but the | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
idea of a currency union with a non-EU member state, if we were to | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
become independent and seek to be a full EU member, I think that is even | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
more problematic than it was in 2014 so I am glad there is some | :03:29. | :03:36. | |
willingness to start finally looking at laying the groundwork for the | :03:37. | :03:39. | |
other options that need to be made credible and need to be made | :03:40. | :03:42. | |
realistic options for Scotland. We have to leave it there. Thank you | :03:43. | :03:43. | |
very much. Russian warships have been | :03:44. | :03:51. | |
in the English Channel this week, in what some have seen | :03:52. | :03:53. | |
as a display of power. But Russia is also interested | :03:54. | :03:56. | |
in getting its world view So we've seen an expansion | :03:57. | :03:58. | |
in so called "soft power" too, with new state controlled media | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
outlets broadcasting And there've been reports | :04:03. | :04:03. | |
in the past few days that something called Pravda International, | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
apparently a successor to the once-powerful | :04:08. | :04:09. | |
Communist newspaper, Pravda was once the voice of the | :04:10. | :04:21. | |
Soviet Communist Party. If you read it in Tempra temperament grow one, | :04:22. | :04:23. | |
you knew it was what they were thinking in the Kremlin, probably. | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
If it was in Pravda, you knew that is what they wanted you to think | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
they were thinking in the Kremlin but what they were thinking could | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
sometimes be slightly different. But the break-up of the Soviet Union | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
changed everything for everyone, and for Pravda. Pravda failed to appear | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
today for the first time since the 1917 revolution. It was split into | :04:49. | :04:56. | |
two. There was a Pravda newspaper publication and also an online | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
Pravda and there was a dispute about who earned the name and there was a | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
court case and the court said that both entities could coexist. | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
Sputnik, funded by the Russian government recently set up in | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
Edinburgh, so it didn't seem too surprising when it was reported that | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
a new version of Pravda, Pravda International was also going to | :05:18. | :05:20. | |
establish a newsroom in the capital. There is a clear emphasis on | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
presenting the Russian viewpoint and the Russian perspective so they | :05:27. | :05:28. | |
presenting the Russian viewpoint and invested heavily in foreign news, | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
Sputnik publishes its languages in Sputnik publishes its languages in | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
-- articles on a number of languages which is all part of sending out | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
messages and getting the Russian message across and most people refer | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
to that as Russian soft power. Was it true? One of the first things | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
that struck me was no one was talking about in the Russian media. | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
This story got coverage in the Scottish media but it also got her a | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
little bit of attention down south in the Guardian and the times. The | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
Russian media normally pays quite close interest in what is happening | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
in England and the rest of the UK and so it was quite strange they | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
hadn't picked up on it. Trying to check out the details, starting with | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
the Pravda International website and it gets order and order. When I went | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
on to that website I found there were a lot of Hollywood celebrities | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
reading a Russian newspaper but it was not Pravda, it was an obscure | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
but eventually newspaper and there was an interesting story behind it. | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
These photos were real but I thought they might have been photo shopped, | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
but they were real and they were taken by a Hollywood producer and | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
his wife who happen to come from a root skewer little town and they had | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
done it has a weird publicity stunt. The photos were real but why they | :06:46. | :06:48. | |
were on the website of Pravda International was strange and it set | :06:49. | :06:51. | |
my mind thinking that it looks like a bit of a hoax. | :06:52. | :06:59. | |
And let this story that is nothing more than smoke and mirrors? | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
Brothers say it is nothing to do do with them. Neither do the people | :07:05. | :07:11. | |
that we have been able to trace who are linked to Pravda International. | :07:12. | :07:20. | |
More recently, the spat between the Russian international and the bank. | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
Some people have interpreted this as a attempt to silence Russian | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
opinion. This could potentially be a way for people to say it is not that | :07:33. | :07:39. | |
easy to quieten Russian opinion. There remains a possibility that | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
just perhaps there is some proof behind this story. It could not and | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
it still cannot completely be ruled out that there is a genuine | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
initiative here from people connected to the Pravda brand. It | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
seems unlikely. There is an old Soviet joke. There are two main | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
newspapers in the Soviet Union. There is one that means news and one | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
that means truth. Soviet citizens is to say that there is no truth in one | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
and no news in the other. Time now for a look | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
at the week ahead. I'm joined now by political | :08:19. | :08:26. | |
commentator Hamish Macdonell and Jenni Davidson of Holyrood | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
Magazine. Let us start by looking ahead. This | :08:31. | :08:43. | |
meeting tomorrow with Nicola Sturgeon and the other nations of | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
the UK, including Theresa May. What we expect to happen? For the first | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
time, it is no exaggeration to say these are crunch talks. They are | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
very important. The opportunity that Nicola Sturgeon has two sets of the | :08:57. | :09:05. | |
Scottish view to Theresa May. We cannot expect anything to come from | :09:06. | :09:12. | |
it. We know where the British Government sands. It really is an | :09:13. | :09:19. | |
occasion for both sides to get into a room together and know where they | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
are come out and say we had a decent discussion but more talks will have | :09:24. | :09:26. | |
to take place. Do you think these talks are five able to be fudged in | :09:27. | :09:35. | |
any way? It is quite difficult. If they had been more moderate and how | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
they put forward their positions, then that might have been the case. | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
Now Nicola Sturgeon has any set a red line in terms of what she wants. | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
Or else, it is another independence referendum. Because Theresa May and | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
David Davis have both said they are not giving this, then that is very | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
difficult to back down from. I am not sure how they are going to go | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
into negotiations from this point well they have 07 what they want. | :10:00. | :10:08. | |
There are possibilities other not? I have counted three different things. | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
One, there has been talk that the British Government might pay into | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
the budget if they can have the passport in rights for financial | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
services. This means that banks will not have the setup in London and do | :10:23. | :10:31. | |
business all across Europe. There is allsorts of talk for special | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
provisions for Northern Ireland because of the border with the | :10:35. | :10:36. | |
Republic. There has also been talk after the meeting Theresa May had | :10:37. | :10:46. | |
after the owner of Mr -- Nissan. That may be that it could be paid | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
into the car budget. There is a bit of grit therefore Nicola Sturgeon to | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
get into their and say there is not much difference between this and | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
what we are saying about Scotland. Yes, there would be if Nicola | :11:02. | :11:03. | |
Sturgeon had not been so strong about the position she had taken. | :11:04. | :11:10. | |
She says that she wants access to the singer market, full protection | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
for Scottish residents and free movement of labour. If we just think | :11:15. | :11:24. | |
for a second that these are two friendly sides want to reach a | :11:25. | :11:25. | |
copper mines, then a comprised could friendly sides want to reach a | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
be reached. We might not have Scotland in the single market, but | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
we might have it more in it than other parts of the UK. If we were | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
talking about two Unionist administrations then perhaps we | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
could be. But we're talking about a Scottish Government that have the | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
dark hour red line issues and if we do not get them they are our red | :11:51. | :11:58. | |
line issues. If it does not deliver those things, Nicola Sturgeon has no | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
choice but to go to the people game because she has said that that is | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
what she will do. Do you agree with that? Isn't there some room? I do | :12:08. | :12:16. | |
yeah. Of course that I was making maximum demands because that is the | :12:17. | :12:19. | |
sensible thing to do when you start a negotiation. She could say I have | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
got this and that but it is not exact what we have asked for but you | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
can't always got what you want. I agree with Hamish. It was a | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
different party, a Unionist party, she could say this is my starting | :12:34. | :12:36. | |
point for negotiations. Something less is OK. Because she did -- is | :12:37. | :12:46. | |
already under parties pressure to deliver a second referendum, then | :12:47. | :12:56. | |
she cannot back down if you does not get what she wants. It will be | :12:57. | :12:59. | |
difficult. She gathers and off, but she has to deliver. That track she | :13:00. | :13:10. | |
can put it off. She will be saying thanks for nothing, mate. Gordon | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
Wilson represents an important strand. He says: also let us not | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
rush into this. I was at the SNP conference a week or two ago. A few | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
people said that if we get this wrong and rush into this then we are | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
finished. That is the line Gordon Wilson are saying. Let us not rush | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
into this. Take the time and make sure we get it right. If we get that | :13:39. | :13:41. | |
wrong then it will be finished. Thank you very much. | :13:42. | :13:43. | |
I'll be back at the same time next week. | :13:44. | :13:48. |