20/11/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


20/11/2016

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer hear from the candidates for the Ukip leadership and look ahead to the chancellor's Autumn Statement.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 20/11/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:40.

Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving

:00:41.:00:43.

the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?

:00:44.:00:47.

Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime

:00:48.:00:49.

The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending

:00:50.:01:02.

on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be

:01:03.:01:08.

Their last leader was just 18 days in the job.

:01:09.:01:13.

Now the second UKIP leadership election this year

:01:14.:01:15.

Amid delays and growing frustration among passengers,

:01:16.:01:19.

I'll be asking the Transport Minister Humza Yousaf if he thinks

:01:20.:01:22.

Abellio are still fit to run ScotRail.

:01:23.:01:29.

is it about a bigger conflict in Europe?

:01:30.:01:37.

And with me - as always - and, no, these three aren't doing

:01:38.:01:40.

the Mannequin challenge - it's our dynamic, demonstrative,

:01:41.:01:45.

dazzling political panel - Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott

:01:46.:01:47.

and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be tweeting throughout the programme.

:01:48.:01:50.

First this morning - Theresa May has said

:01:51.:01:56.

"Brexit means Brexit" - but can the Prime Minister -

:01:57.:01:58.

who was on the Remain side of argument during the referendum

:01:59.:02:01.

Well, Leave-supporting Tory MPs are re-launching

:02:02.:02:09.

the "European Research Group" this morning to keep Mrs May's feet

:02:10.:02:16.

Are you worried that you cannot trust Theresa May until payment to

:02:17.:02:26.

deliver full Brexit was Magellan like I totally trust Theresa May,

:02:27.:02:32.

100% behind her. She has displayed a massive amount of commitment to

:02:33.:02:35.

making a success of Brexit for the country.

:02:36.:02:39.

We don't know that yet, because nothing has happened. Why, then,

:02:40.:02:43.

have you formed a pressure group? We were fed up with the negativity

:02:44.:02:50.

coming out around Brexit. I feel positive about the opportunities we

:02:51.:02:54.

face, and we are a group to provide suggestions. Who do you have in mind

:02:55.:02:57.

when you talk about negativity - the Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems,

:02:58.:03:04.

for example, from Labour MPs. This is a pressure group for leaving

:03:05.:03:10.

membership of the single market and customs union, correct? That is what

:03:11.:03:16.

we are proposing. It has a purpose other than just to combat

:03:17.:03:19.

negativity. When it comes to membership of the single market and

:03:20.:03:23.

the customs union, can you tell us what Government policy is towards

:03:24.:03:28.

both or either? Rightly, the Government hasn't made the position

:03:29.:03:31.

clear, and I think that is the right approach, because we don't want to

:03:32.:03:36.

review our negotiating hand. What we're saying... I'm not asking what

:03:37.:03:44.

you are saying. Can you tell us what Government policy is towards

:03:45.:03:46.

membership of these institutions? The Government wants to make sure

:03:47.:03:51.

British businesses have the right to trade with EU partners, to forge new

:03:52.:03:55.

trade deals with the rest of the world. We hope to Reza may speak at

:03:56.:04:02.

Mansion house this week. -- we had Theresa May speak at Mansion house

:04:03.:04:06.

this week. She has been clear, saying it was not a binary choice.

:04:07.:04:11.

And she's right. Let's run that tape, because I want to pick up on

:04:12.:04:15.

what she did say. This is what she had to say about the customs union

:04:16.:04:19.

at Prime Minister's Question Time. On the whole question of the customs

:04:20.:04:25.

union, trading relationships that we have with the European Union and

:04:26.:04:27.

other parts of the world once we have left the European Union, we are

:04:28.:04:33.

preparing carefully for the formal negotiations. We are preparing

:04:34.:04:43.

carefully for the formal negotiations. We want to ensure we

:04:44.:04:46.

have the best possible trading deal with the EU once we have left. Do

:04:47.:04:52.

you know what she means when she says being in the customs union is

:04:53.:04:56.

not a binary choice? I think she's right when she says that. At the

:04:57.:05:00.

moment, and you know this, as long as we are in the customs union, we

:05:01.:05:04.

cannot set our own tariffs or rules, cannot have a free trade agreement

:05:05.:05:08.

with the US or China. We need to leave a customs union to do that.

:05:09.:05:14.

Binary means either you are in or you are out, self which is it? We

:05:15.:05:18.

still want to trade with the EU, and I think we can have a free trade

:05:19.:05:22.

agreement with the EU. That is a separate matter, and it has to do

:05:23.:05:28.

with the single market. What about the customs union? We need to leave

:05:29.:05:32.

the customs union. We do it and properly. That is how to get the

:05:33.:05:37.

most out of this opportunity. Summit is a binary choice? The Prime

:05:38.:05:41.

Minister is right when she says it's not a binary choice. Both can't be

:05:42.:05:46.

right. We can leave the customs union, get their benefits, and have

:05:47.:05:54.

a free trade agreement with zero tariffs with the EU. So it is a

:05:55.:05:59.

binary choice an either be stale really. Yellow like I am saying the

:06:00.:06:02.

Prime Minister is right when she says it is not a binary choice. -- I

:06:03.:06:09.

am saying the Prime Minister is right. We need clarity. Youth had

:06:10.:06:17.

said -- you have said it is a binary choice. We need to leave the

:06:18.:06:21.

constraints of the customs union. It pushes up prices. The EU is not

:06:22.:06:25.

securing the right trade deals, and if we want to make the most of it,

:06:26.:06:29.

we need to get out there and get some deals going. Do you accept that

:06:30.:06:34.

if we remain in the customs union, we cannot do our own free-trade

:06:35.:06:39.

deals? Yellow right 100%. That is why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do

:06:40.:06:55.

you accept that if we leave the customs union but stay with

:06:56.:06:59.

substantial access, I don't say membership, but substantial access

:07:00.:07:02.

to the single market, that goods going from this country to the

:07:03.:07:05.

single market because we're no longer in the union will be subject

:07:06.:07:11.

to complicated rules of origin regulations, which could cost

:07:12.:07:19.

business ?13 billion a year? I would like to see a free-trade agreement

:07:20.:07:23.

between the UK and the EU. Look at the Canadian deal. I give you that,

:07:24.:07:27.

but if we're not in the customs union, things that we bring in on

:07:28.:07:32.

our own tariffs once we've left, we can't just export again willy-nilly

:07:33.:07:36.

to the EU. They will demand to see rules of origin. Norway has to do

:07:37.:07:40.

that at the moment and it is highly complicated expensive. I think if we

:07:41.:07:46.

agree a particular arrangement as part of this agreement with the EU,

:07:47.:07:50.

we can reach an agreement on that which sets a lower standard, which

:07:51.:07:56.

sets a different level of tariffs, which protects some of our

:07:57.:08:00.

industries. Let's suppose we have pretty much free trade with the EU

:08:01.:08:05.

but we are out of the customs union, and let's suppose that the European

:08:06.:08:09.

Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese whisky and we decide to have a 0%

:08:10.:08:18.

tariff - what then happens to the whisky that comes into Britain and

:08:19.:08:22.

goes on to the EU? The EU will not let that in. That will be part of

:08:23.:08:27.

the negotiation. I think there is a huge benefit for external operators.

:08:28.:08:34.

Every bottle of Japanese whisky, they will have to work out the rules

:08:35.:08:37.

of origin. There have been studies that show there is a potential for

:08:38.:08:43.

50% increase in global product if we leave. We're losing the benefits of

:08:44.:08:49.

free trade. I understand, I am asking for your particular view.

:08:50.:08:50.

Thank you for that. Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could

:08:51.:08:59.

not bring himself to say we would leave the customs union? It is

:09:00.:09:03.

messy. The reason there is this new group of Tory MPs signing up to a

:09:04.:09:09.

campaign to make sure we get a genuine Brexit is because there is

:09:10.:09:14.

this vacuum. It is being filled with all sorts of briefing from the other

:09:15.:09:19.

side. There is a real risk in the minds of Brexit supporting MPs that

:09:20.:09:24.

the remaining side are going to try to hijack the process, not only

:09:25.:09:27.

through the Supreme Court action, which I think most Brexit MPs seem

:09:28.:09:33.

to accept the appeal will fail, but further down the line, through

:09:34.:09:38.

amendments to the great repeal bill. This is a pressure group to try to

:09:39.:09:42.

hold the Prime Minister to account. There is plenty of pressure on the

:09:43.:09:46.

Prime Minister effectively to stay in the single market and the customs

:09:47.:09:51.

union, and if you do both of these things, de facto, you have stayed in

:09:52.:09:57.

the EU. She is in a difficult position because there is no good

:09:58.:10:00.

faith assumption about what Theresa May wants because she was a

:10:01.:10:07.

Remainer. There is all this talk about a transitional arrangement,

:10:08.:10:10.

but she can't sell that as someone who voted to remain. The way Isabel

:10:11.:10:16.

has characterised it is interesting. There is a betrayal narrative.

:10:17.:10:20.

Everyone is looking to say that she has betrayed the true Brexit. Since

:10:21.:10:24.

the Government cannot give a clear indication of what it once in terms

:10:25.:10:30.

of the customs union, which sets external tariffs, or the single

:10:31.:10:34.

market, which is the free movement of people, capital, goods and

:10:35.:10:37.

services, others are filling this vacuum. Right. The reasons they

:10:38.:10:45.

can't do this are, first, they don't know if they can get it or not. We

:10:46.:10:48.

saw this with the renegotiation the last Prime Minister. What are they

:10:49.:10:55.

hoping to get? The world on a stick, to get cake and eat it. You go into

:10:56.:11:05.

a negotiation saying, let's see what we can get in total. Are they going

:11:06.:11:09.

to ask the membership of the single market? Yellow I think they will ask

:11:10.:11:13.

for a free trade agreement involving everything. You can demand what you

:11:14.:11:26.

want. The question is, do they stand a cat's chance in hell of getting

:11:27.:11:32.

it? They don't know. Welcome back. We will be back, believe me. It is

:11:33.:11:37.

150 day since we found out the UK had voted to leave the EU, but as we

:11:38.:11:42.

have heard, remain and leave campaigners continue to battle about

:11:43.:11:47.

what type of relationship we should have with the EU after exit.

:11:48.:11:54.

Leave campaigners say that leaving the EU

:11:55.:11:56.

also means quitting the

:11:57.:11:57.

Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free

:11:58.:12:00.

movement of goods, services, capital and people.

:12:01.:12:01.

They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting

:12:02.:12:03.

politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during

:12:04.:12:05.

Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost

:12:06.:12:08.

certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.

:12:09.:12:17.

When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay

:12:18.:12:22.

"No, we should be outside the Single Market."

:12:23.:12:25.

And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael

:12:26.:12:28.

Gove was absolutely right to say the UK

:12:29.:12:29.

They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before

:12:30.:12:41.

the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the

:12:42.:12:44.

Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving

:12:45.:12:47.

the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area

:12:48.:12:50.

Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,

:12:51.:12:52.

once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually

:12:53.:12:59.

And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said

:13:00.:13:04.

that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some

:13:05.:13:06.

But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what

:13:07.:13:11.

To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're

:13:12.:13:17.

joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain

:13:18.:13:20.

Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave

:13:21.:13:34.

campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many

:13:35.:13:37.

were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was

:13:38.:13:45.

made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12

:13:46.:13:49.

statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the

:13:50.:13:53.

referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.

:13:54.:13:58.

Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian

:13:59.:14:01.

model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went

:14:02.:14:07.

out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading

:14:08.:14:10.

arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the

:14:11.:14:14.

Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade

:14:15.:14:19.

agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the

:14:20.:14:22.

12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself,

:14:23.:14:27.

when people were giving really serious thought to such matters? The

:14:28.:14:32.

Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters.

:14:33.:14:35.

They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.

:14:36.:14:40.

But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should

:14:41.:14:44.

stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked

:14:45.:14:49.

about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from

:14:50.:14:55.

Nigel Farage dates back to 2009, when we didn't even know if we would

:14:56.:14:58.

have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back

:14:59.:15:03.

to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point

:15:04.:15:06.

stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.

:15:07.:15:13.

Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave

:15:14.:15:17.

movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place

:15:18.:15:21.

in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave

:15:22.:15:25.

campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have

:15:26.:15:29.

highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners

:15:30.:15:32.

over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments

:15:33.:15:38.

accurately? I don't think in a 92nd video you can talk about the full

:15:39.:15:44.

thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade

:15:45.:15:49.

agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.

:15:50.:15:56.

There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the

:15:57.:15:58.

clip you used on Owen Paterson first.

:15:59.:16:00.

Only a madman would actually leave the market.

:16:01.:16:07.

Only a madman would actually leave the market.

:16:08.:16:11.

It's not the EU which is

:16:12.:16:13.

a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.

:16:14.:16:16.

It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on

:16:17.:16:19.

I mean, are we really suggesting that the

:16:20.:16:22.

economy in the world is not going to come to come

:16:23.:16:25.

to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?

:16:26.:16:27.

Are we going to be like Sudan and North

:16:28.:16:29.

It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a

:16:30.:16:33.

What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that

:16:34.:16:47.

we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country

:16:48.:16:51.

in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our

:16:52.:16:54.

trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David

:16:55.:16:58.

Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box

:16:59.:17:02.

recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the

:17:03.:17:05.

Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of

:17:06.:17:10.

course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't

:17:11.:17:11.

think he was about axis, he is talking

:17:12.:17:30.

about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks

:17:31.:17:32.

about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap

:17:33.:17:35.

off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's

:17:36.:17:38.

the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and

:17:39.:17:40.

Patterson is an example of this, saying we can trade as we do now,

:17:41.:17:43.

the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and

:17:44.:17:45.

tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the

:17:46.:17:47.

views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.

:17:48.:17:49.

When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that

:17:50.:17:52.

it might be initially attractive for some business people.

:17:53.:17:54.

So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in

:17:55.:17:58.

the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian

:17:59.:18:02.

option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive

:18:03.:18:05.

for some business people. But then again for voters

:18:06.:18:07.

who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,

:18:08.:18:10.

they will be very concerned that it allows free movement

:18:11.:18:13.

of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.

:18:14.:18:25.

He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real

:18:26.:18:27.

problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.

:18:28.:18:32.

But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them

:18:33.:18:35.

accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what

:18:36.:18:39.

we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying

:18:40.:18:43.

the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It

:18:44.:18:47.

might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free

:18:48.:18:54.

movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are

:18:55.:18:58.

saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are

:18:59.:19:01.

distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.

:19:02.:19:03.

On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area

:19:04.:19:06.

This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn't

:19:07.:19:14.

run. There is absolutely

:19:15.:19:15.

nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving

:19:16.:19:17.

the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part

:19:18.:19:18.

of the European Economic Area and we should use our

:19:19.:19:22.

membership of the EEA as a holding position from which

:19:23.:19:31.

we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export

:19:32.:19:34.

market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,

:19:35.:19:37.

if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we

:19:38.:19:47.

should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA

:19:48.:19:52.

as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip

:19:53.:20:02.

is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a

:20:03.:20:05.

distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a

:20:06.:20:09.

definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,

:20:10.:20:12.

for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go

:20:13.:20:17.

on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he

:20:18.:20:20.

does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't

:20:21.:20:24.

let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he

:20:25.:20:27.

wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would

:20:28.:20:31.

be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea

:20:32.:20:35.

now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the

:20:36.:20:38.

Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all

:20:39.:20:42.

had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the

:20:43.:20:47.

full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out

:20:48.:20:51.

there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave

:20:52.:20:54.

campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout

:20:55.:20:58.

the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market

:20:59.:21:02.

is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the

:21:03.:21:05.

montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime

:21:06.:21:10.

Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being

:21:11.:21:13.

categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave

:21:14.:21:16.

membership of the Single Market. What bit of that didn't you

:21:17.:21:20.

understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to

:21:21.:21:23.

leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other

:21:24.:21:29.

promises they made, whether ?350 million for the NHS, whether a VAT

:21:30.:21:34.

cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of

:21:35.:21:37.

any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan

:21:38.:21:41.

has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market. You

:21:42.:21:46.

spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting

:21:47.:21:48.

and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen

:21:49.:21:51.

this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is

:21:52.:21:55.

perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have

:21:56.:21:58.

a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.

:21:59.:22:02.

That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to

:22:03.:22:05.

stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag

:22:06.:22:09.

us out of our biggest trading partner.

:22:10.:22:12.

Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up

:22:13.:22:14.

their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week

:22:15.:22:15.

in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest

:22:16.:22:18.

this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -

:22:19.:22:21.

stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from

:22:22.:22:24.

farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,

:22:25.:22:27.

split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're

:22:28.:22:42.

having their second Watch as the alpha male,

:22:43.:22:52.

the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,

:22:53.:23:00.

the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha

:23:01.:23:02.

female Diane James. The European Parliament

:23:03.:23:05.

in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible

:23:06.:23:19.

future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,

:23:20.:23:22.

has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague

:23:23.:23:24.

during a meeting. A few days later he is

:23:25.:23:26.

out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my

:23:27.:23:29.

application to become I'm actually withdrawing

:23:30.:23:33.

myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party?

:23:34.:23:36.

I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document

:23:37.:23:42.

suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political

:23:43.:23:46.

campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes

:23:47.:23:51.

over the leadership of the pack. One contender is Suzanne Evans,

:23:52.:23:57.

a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for

:23:58.:24:00.

disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,

:24:01.:24:09.

an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side

:24:10.:24:12.

as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast

:24:13.:24:17.

in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told

:24:18.:24:20.

that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,

:24:21.:24:22.

a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance

:24:23.:24:28.

to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated

:24:29.:24:31.

passionate supporters who feel like they're not really

:24:32.:24:45.

being listened to and are not even Typically what happens

:24:46.:24:47.

is they just basically sit there until six months before

:24:48.:24:50.

a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out

:24:51.:24:53.

and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel

:24:54.:24:55.

there is not an adequate flow of communication

:24:56.:24:58.

up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in

:24:59.:25:00.

any hustings? He left a hustings saying

:25:01.:25:09.

the contest was an establishment coronation and has

:25:10.:25:12.

made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty

:25:13.:25:14.

for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear

:25:15.:25:17.

will amongst the offences should be dealt with

:25:18.:25:19.

decisively. But again, on an issue like that,

:25:20.:25:23.

that is something that Our members are not

:25:24.:25:25.

going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that

:25:26.:25:31.

I would have any authority to have the say and determine

:25:32.:25:33.

the future What method would you use

:25:34.:25:35.

for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could

:25:36.:25:39.

be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online

:25:40.:25:41.

poll about whether you use the electric chair,

:25:42.:25:45.

or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made

:25:46.:25:51.

in favour of This is such a small aspect

:25:52.:25:53.

of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media

:25:54.:25:58.

they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant

:25:59.:26:00.

details. This is one vote that

:26:01.:26:05.

the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do

:26:06.:26:08.

in this party is to revolutionise the democratic

:26:09.:26:12.

process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should

:26:13.:26:14.

be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip

:26:15.:26:18.

would win at Meanwhile, in New York,

:26:19.:26:21.

on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage

:26:22.:26:29.

of the President-elect, a man he has described as

:26:30.:26:37.

a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some

:26:38.:26:40.

in this leadership contest. There are also elections

:26:41.:26:43.

to the party's National Executive Committee, a body

:26:44.:26:45.

that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two

:26:46.:26:48.

of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -

:26:49.:27:03.

Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving

:27:04.:27:13.

each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be

:27:14.:27:16.

the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.

:27:17.:27:19.

Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,

:27:20.:27:22.

forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it

:27:23.:27:26.

really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win

:27:27.:27:29.

seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we

:27:30.:27:33.

need to attract more women, more ethnic

:27:34.:27:53.

minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their

:27:54.:27:56.

party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my

:27:57.:27:59.

leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical

:28:00.:28:01.

party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne

:28:02.:28:03.

Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.

:28:04.:28:06.

I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and

:28:07.:28:08.

prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I

:28:09.:28:11.

am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done

:28:12.:28:14.

every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,

:28:15.:28:16.

whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past

:28:17.:28:19.

six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour

:28:20.:28:21.

constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of

:28:22.:28:25.

working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet

:28:26.:28:28.

are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a

:28:29.:28:35.

mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to

:28:36.:28:39.

realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get

:28:40.:28:43.

together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles

:28:44.:28:46.

within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and

:28:47.:28:51.

whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion

:28:52.:28:55.

polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on

:28:56.:28:59.

the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a

:29:00.:29:03.

grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in

:29:04.:29:06.

the party as well and also a background that I think means I can

:29:07.:29:09.

help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity

:29:10.:29:20.

faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.

:29:21.:29:23.

There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee

:29:24.:29:25.

going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have

:29:26.:29:28.

ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day, I

:29:29.:29:31.

think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more

:29:32.:29:34.

open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive

:29:35.:29:38.

Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to

:29:39.:29:42.

be elected reasonably since 2010 giving the members better

:29:43.:29:45.

communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a

:29:46.:29:49.

clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,

:29:50.:29:54.

Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person

:29:55.:29:57.

who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show

:29:58.:30:01.

you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with

:30:02.:30:08.

President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's

:30:09.:30:11.

decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr

:30:12.:30:15.

Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.

:30:16.:30:21.

I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is

:30:22.:30:24.

President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the

:30:25.:30:29.

campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,

:30:30.:30:32.

pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put

:30:33.:30:36.

the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne

:30:37.:30:41.

Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I

:30:42.:30:46.

said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest. The

:30:47.:30:50.

better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is

:30:51.:30:54.

quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr

:30:55.:30:59.

Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have

:31:00.:31:04.

that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not

:31:05.:31:08.

out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is

:31:09.:31:11.

according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let

:31:12.:31:17.

me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself

:31:18.:31:20.

in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country

:31:21.:31:24.

ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in

:31:25.:31:25.

2020. The other thing your leader has in

:31:26.:31:35.

common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do

:31:36.:31:42.

you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and

:31:43.:31:49.

Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is

:31:50.:31:53.

pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle

:31:54.:31:58.

East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to

:31:59.:32:04.

bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the

:32:05.:32:09.

conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American

:32:10.:32:13.

line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is

:32:14.:32:20.

affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these

:32:21.:32:23.

people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial

:32:24.:32:32.

breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage

:32:33.:32:35.

unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do

:32:36.:32:40.

you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I

:32:41.:32:44.

was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,

:32:45.:32:49.

and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were

:32:50.:32:52.

already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth

:32:53.:32:56.

that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control

:32:57.:32:58.

immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering

:32:59.:33:07.

voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it

:33:08.:33:11.

was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed

:33:12.:33:15.

to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.

:33:16.:33:19.

People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip

:33:20.:33:26.

shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you

:33:27.:33:33.

different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone

:33:34.:33:36.

for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from

:33:37.:33:39.

the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns,

:33:40.:33:46.

with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa

:33:47.:33:53.

into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,

:33:54.:33:57.

particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I

:33:58.:34:02.

want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the

:34:03.:34:08.

low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national

:34:09.:34:11.

anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks

:34:12.:34:15.

anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John

:34:16.:34:20.

McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for

:34:21.:34:24.

working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.

:34:25.:34:29.

It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I

:34:30.:34:35.

first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic

:34:36.:34:38.

opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at

:34:39.:34:42.

me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have

:34:43.:34:45.

seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death

:34:46.:34:52.

penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more

:34:53.:34:55.

money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to

:34:56.:35:00.

fund it adequately, and it hasn't been to date. We promised in our

:35:01.:35:09.

manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come

:35:10.:35:14.

from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being

:35:15.:35:19.

taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the

:35:20.:35:24.

money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because

:35:25.:35:28.

that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on

:35:29.:35:33.

management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,

:35:34.:35:36.

foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership

:35:37.:35:42.

fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It

:35:43.:35:46.

cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are

:35:47.:35:53.

not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you

:35:54.:35:59.

get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.

:36:00.:36:04.

Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25

:36:05.:36:08.

million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer

:36:09.:36:13.

than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away

:36:14.:36:18.

from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?

:36:19.:36:33.

Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.

:36:34.:36:41.

Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you

:36:42.:36:47.

It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:36:48.:36:51.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:36:52.:36:57.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:36:58.:37:00.

The Transport Minister tells there's a strong arguments

:37:01.:37:05.

for a unified railway system under public ownership.

:37:06.:37:09.

The Scottish and Welsh Governments win the right to intervene

:37:10.:37:12.

in the Supreme Court Appeal over Article 50 - but with growing

:37:13.:37:16.

pressure on Prime Minister May to abandon the appeal altogether,

:37:17.:37:18.

And after picking-up mysterious signals emanating from Westminster,

:37:19.:37:26.

our reporter Huw Williams goes beyond the final frontier.

:37:27.:37:33.

Worth over ?7 billion the ScotRail franchise is the single biggest

:37:34.:37:35.

The current recipient of this handsome public purse

:37:36.:37:42.

All does not seem to be going well. In a moment we will hear from the

:37:43.:38:00.

transport minister saying he is holding a meeting next week to

:38:01.:38:04.

create a public sector company to bid to run the railways. On Thursday

:38:05.:38:11.

morning a train broke down between Haymarket and Waverley, causing

:38:12.:38:14.

chaos. Here are some views of the passengers. It is a shambles. A

:38:15.:38:19.

joke. We were on the train for over three hours. We were coming from

:38:20.:38:24.

Livingston. It took two and have ours. I had better go. I am late for

:38:25.:38:34.

work. We had to stand there and no one told us what was going on. We

:38:35.:38:37.

were told there were replacement bus services but they never came.

:38:38.:38:38.

Well, later the same day under questioning

:38:39.:38:40.

from Labour's Kezia Dugdale, the First Minister apologised

:38:41.:38:41.

for Abellio's performance and accepted it's not good enough.

:38:42.:38:43.

I am sorry for the disruption that was caused this morning and any

:38:44.:38:49.

disruption that any passenger faces on any day of the week. That is

:38:50.:38:54.

ScotRail's position and it is mine. I accept things are not good enough

:38:55.:38:58.

and that is why the improvement plan is in place and we will stick with

:38:59.:39:02.

that until things are running to a standard the public have a right to

:39:03.:39:05.

accept two expect. I'll be speaking with the Transport

:39:06.:39:05.

Minister Humza Yousaf shortly, but first, here's Robert Samson

:39:06.:39:08.

from the rail passengers lobby group Transport Focus and I asked him

:39:09.:39:10.

if things are getting worse Yes. Passengers are experiencing

:39:11.:39:23.

poor journeys, punctuality is going down. They are going from 90% down

:39:24.:39:28.

to 80%. Passengers are suffering right now. Is this a problem to do

:39:29.:39:34.

it with Abellio or is it a more generalised problem? We have met

:39:35.:39:38.

with senior management from Abellio last week and there is a problem

:39:39.:39:44.

with punctuality but there is not one major issue. That are a number

:39:45.:39:50.

of issues, such as trains breaking down, infrastructure problems. It is

:39:51.:39:54.

attention to detail that is required to resolve it and hopefully the

:39:55.:39:58.

performance improvement plan over the next couple of months will see

:39:59.:40:03.

that punctuality get back up to 90%. Is the problem that Abellio have not

:40:04.:40:07.

been paying that detailed attention in way that first were when they

:40:08.:40:13.

were running it? They have been paying attention to the detail but

:40:14.:40:17.

there have been a number of other factors as well, such as industrial

:40:18.:40:25.

disputes. Even the problems such as the fourth road works closure meant

:40:26.:40:28.

that poor performance for ScotRail because they had to amend their

:40:29.:40:31.

that poor performance for ScotRail timetables to deal with passengers

:40:32.:40:34.

getting in from Fife to Edinburgh. What they would say is that a lot of

:40:35.:40:39.

these things you mentioned where beyond their control. Yes, there are

:40:40.:40:42.

a number of that terrorists that are beyond the control but there are

:40:43.:40:47.

numbers of factors that are within their control. -- a number of

:40:48.:40:55.

factors. Such as Saint Mel 's not failing and points failing not

:40:56.:41:00.

failing. Both those are in control of Network Rail and within the

:41:01.:41:05.

ScotRail Alliance. We hope the attention to detail with this

:41:06.:41:08.

performance improvement plan will give passengers the train service

:41:09.:41:13.

that they want. Some of the issues they mention their sound to me like

:41:14.:41:17.

Network Rail issues, rather than Abellio issues. Passengers do not

:41:18.:41:24.

care if they are Network Rail issues or ScotRail issues and there is an

:41:25.:41:28.

alliance that is coming together, ScotRail and Network Rail, it is up

:41:29.:41:33.

to the them together to solve the problem and deliver the railway

:41:34.:41:37.

system that passengers want. Passengers do not want to hear

:41:38.:41:41.

excuses. It is the infrastructure owners fault, they do not care. Just

:41:42.:41:45.

fix the problem. Take me through this. If you are someone who relies

:41:46.:41:51.

on the trains to commute from Glasgow to Edinburgh or Dundee to

:41:52.:41:58.

Aberdeen or whatever, what are the sort of common problems that regular

:41:59.:42:05.

commuters are coming across? Regular problems are trains being delayed

:42:06.:42:08.

and even the performance measure. Commuters especially notice if

:42:09.:42:14.

trains are two or three minutes late. They want the trains to be on

:42:15.:42:22.

time. We have done research and high ratings are punctuality and being

:42:23.:42:26.

able to get a seat. A lot of times in the morning and evening rush hour

:42:27.:42:30.

passengers are unable to get a seat. Those are the basics that we want to

:42:31.:42:32.

passengers are unable to get a seat. deliver. What about the state of the

:42:33.:42:40.

trains themselves? The trains in the morning and evening are overcrowded

:42:41.:42:42.

and that is a problem for passengers. When things do or wrong,

:42:43.:42:47.

they want a good level of information to see how long the

:42:48.:42:51.

delay is going to be and what alternatives are in place. When it

:42:52.:42:56.

works, it is good. It is patchy and what we want as consistent delivery

:42:57.:42:58.

of information so that passengers can make an informed choice. Thank

:42:59.:43:01.

you very much indeed. Well, the man hopefully with a plan

:43:02.:43:03.

to get Scottish rail back on the right tracks

:43:04.:43:06.

is Transport Minister Humza Yousaf. First of all, when the Abellio

:43:07.:43:17.

contract was awarded your Government described it as world leading. Could

:43:18.:43:23.

you explain to me in what ways Scotland's railways are better than

:43:24.:43:27.

any others in the world. World leading in terms of what it offered

:43:28.:43:33.

workers at the time. No compulsory redundancies, the living wage. Let's

:43:34.:43:38.

be clear, ScotRail's performance has been not good enough. The understand

:43:39.:43:43.

that I have told them and two in no uncertain terms that the performance

:43:44.:43:47.

must improve and if it does not improve, there will be serious

:43:48.:43:50.

consequences. It is not world class yet. It is a franchise and we will

:43:51.:43:55.

be working to get it the best railways on these islands. It is not

:43:56.:43:58.

good enough. ScotRail know it is not good enough. Is it world leading in

:43:59.:44:04.

any respect? Some of the protections it gives employees are unmatched

:44:05.:44:10.

across these islands. You will understand that people are

:44:11.:44:13.

frustrated at not being able to do their commute. There are criteria in

:44:14.:44:19.

using it as the best in the world is not the staff being made redundant.

:44:20.:44:24.

I would agree. Passengers have been frustrated. Passengers tell me they

:44:25.:44:29.

are angry. I was that the really at peak time and I have heard that.

:44:30.:44:33.

When they go on the morning travels are back in the evening, I am on top

:44:34.:44:37.

of ScotRail to improve the performance. It is not at your level

:44:38.:44:41.

that is acceptable. Everyday when passengers go on their commute, I R

:44:42.:44:48.

two and on top of ScotRail to make sure they are improving. Your

:44:49.:44:53.

Government promised to deliver a world leading railway, which means

:44:54.:44:56.

the best in the world and you have just sat there and told me that the

:44:57.:45:00.

is no way in which it is the best really in the world. That is your

:45:01.:45:05.

responsibility. Yes, it is my responsibility. Why do you not

:45:06.:45:10.

resign? The only people calling for that are the party and Labour unions

:45:11.:45:16.

affiliated with Labour. People want a transport minister... Are you

:45:17.:45:20.

inviting passengers to call for your resignation? No. I am on top of the

:45:21.:45:24.

job and listening to what passengers have to say and monitoring

:45:25.:45:29.

ScotRail's performance. I demand a per two improvement. I will be

:45:30.:45:34.

clear, there are very serious consequences for ScotRail and

:45:35.:45:38.

Abellio if they do not improve their performance. Nicola Sturgeon said

:45:39.:45:41.

the other day that you would keep the option of stripping Abellio of

:45:42.:45:46.

the ScotRail franchise. That could happen when's there are a few ways

:45:47.:45:52.

that could happen. One is performance dips between 83.4% for

:45:53.:45:58.

three consecutive months. That is one way it could happen. What I

:45:59.:46:02.

would also say it is that alternatives in terms of the public

:46:03.:46:06.

sector bed is something I am exploring and looking at committing

:46:07.:46:11.

to bring forward. When could that happen? The contract could be

:46:12.:46:17.

terminated if performance falls below 83.4% that is when you would

:46:18.:46:20.

start discussions about stripping the contract. You would have a

:46:21.:46:23.

period of time whereby we would have to put other measures in place. We

:46:24.:46:28.

have the operator of last resort if the Scottish Government and

:46:29.:46:31.

transport Scotland had to dig over the railways tomorrow. We have

:46:32.:46:37.

contingency in place. -- take over. We have the operator of last resort

:46:38.:46:40.

to do that. If it came to that point, you would resign. If it came

:46:41.:46:47.

to the point that you had to strip a world leading railway operator of

:46:48.:46:51.

its contract and you either transport minister, could hardly

:46:52.:46:54.

say, I have been a great success and I am going to continue. My job is to

:46:55.:47:00.

make sure that Abellio make an live up to the standards of that

:47:01.:47:05.

contract. If they do not and if they underperform, I will hold them to

:47:06.:47:09.

account. That is my job. Abellio's job is to run the railway and the

:47:10.:47:13.

franchise. My job is to hold them to account. If they do not perform and

:47:14.:47:19.

if the fault below that threshold, of course their contract will be

:47:20.:47:26.

terminated. -- fall below. Either no circumstances in which she would

:47:27.:47:28.

resign? No, I am not suggesting that. I am not here to discuss

:47:29.:47:34.

whether I will resign. This is not about me. This is about making sure

:47:35.:47:41.

Abellio... It is about you. You either transport minister. It is

:47:42.:47:43.

about making sure Abellio live up to the obligations in the contract. I

:47:44.:47:48.

am responsible for making sure that happens. I am monitoring that daily

:47:49.:47:52.

to make sure it happens. If it does not happen, I will and we will as a

:47:53.:47:56.

Scottish Government take a very serious measures. That could include

:47:57.:47:58.

stripping them of the contract. Is it your current

:47:59.:48:14.

intention that Abellio will not be re-awarded the contract to run

:48:15.:48:16.

ScotRail? Our current position is they have signed a contract until

:48:17.:48:19.

the end of the franchise. There is a break clause in 2020. We're going to

:48:20.:48:22.

put together a public sector bed. I am going to be calling the unions

:48:23.:48:25.

this week and other political parties to join with me any

:48:26.:48:29.

discussion about how we make and put together a viable public sector bed

:48:30.:48:33.

that will be viable and competitive and that is what the alternative

:48:34.:48:39.

that we have put forward will be. That could be ready for 2020. What,

:48:40.:48:45.

Abellio do not get re-awarded the contract? That is not what I am

:48:46.:48:48.

saying. We have a legal contract that we had to procure. We would

:48:49.:48:53.

have liked the feel devilish and of railway powers. That was blocked by

:48:54.:49:01.

other parties in the Smith position. Labour Party

:49:02.:49:19.

Labour are calling for nationalising the railways in Scotland. Due

:49:20.:49:26.

against that? We don't have the powers do so. I would love to have

:49:27.:49:31.

full Devil lotion and full control over the railways. I would like to

:49:32.:49:36.

have the full power, full control over railway powers. Why would you

:49:37.:49:42.

not like to rationalise the railways? No. What's wrong with

:49:43.:49:48.

saying nationalised the railways? I'm not saying I'm entirely against

:49:49.:49:52.

the proposal. I will put together a public sector bed. Why is it wrong

:49:53.:49:58.

to say nationalise the railways? What we have said... You have

:49:59.:50:04.

explained that. Explain to me why it is wrong to... There is an argument

:50:05.:50:12.

that integrating the railways to use the jargon, integrating the

:50:13.:50:17.

operating company and infrastructure... I think it is a

:50:18.:50:20.

very good argument that the railways can be in public ownership and that

:50:21.:50:25.

has been something I have been committed to putting forward. What I

:50:26.:50:29.

have said is that we will put forward a compat at a public sector

:50:30.:50:34.

bed. Let me finish. I will be calling out to other political

:50:35.:50:39.

parties this week and the unions to help us put forward a public sector

:50:40.:50:45.

bed. We do not have the powers to nationalise the mill with. What

:50:46.:50:51.

commuters want to know or are we on top of Abellio, will the performance

:50:52.:50:57.

improved and that is I am determined to do. If Abellio do not improve

:50:58.:51:00.

their performance, if the performance tips, they will be

:51:01.:51:04.

stripped of their contract. You have been asking the British government

:51:05.:51:12.

to devolve ownership over the railways. Would you think the best

:51:13.:51:23.

option would be to integrate the network railway Wescott rain, and

:51:24.:51:31.

make at one company? Network Rail is make at one company? Network Rail is

:51:32.:51:46.

-- why I asked for a full devil lotion of Network Rail was because

:51:47.:51:53.

we do not have control over them as they do real infrastructure projects

:51:54.:52:02.

which are overshooting by hundreds of thousands of pounds. What you are

:52:03.:52:05.

saying is that you would like one public sector company to run the

:52:06.:52:08.

whole infrastructure? You can have a public body to tender for the next

:52:09.:52:10.

round. That is not the same as nationalisation. They could lose

:52:11.:52:13.

after that. Currently we do not have the powerless. I would like the full

:52:14.:52:16.

powers over Network Rail. Currently water allows is for a public sector

:52:17.:52:25.

bed. We have shell companies. You say you want a public sector company

:52:26.:52:31.

to bid for it, a public sector operated company to bid for it. Is

:52:32.:52:32.

anything like that in existence? operated company to bid for it. Is

:52:33.:52:37.

That is the reason I am calling out to the Unionist... Does it exist?

:52:38.:52:43.

The shell companies that exist as the operators... Does a real company

:52:44.:52:49.

exist? No, the reason for that is to bring the unions and, other

:52:50.:52:52.

political parties, what came to company do they want to see setup?

:52:53.:52:59.

That takes time in order to put the bid together. We will be working on

:53:00.:53:01.

that and we have internal work on that, I want to reach out to the

:53:02.:53:06.

unions and other political parties to see if we can put together a

:53:07.:53:12.

public sector bed that is viable. Thank you.

:53:13.:53:25.

to intervene in the legal challenge at the Supreme Court over how

:53:26.:53:28.

And there's been much talk over whether Scotland can remain

:53:29.:53:31.

in the single market if it adopts the so-called "Norway model".

:53:32.:53:34.

It's all getting a bit complicated, so here to make it a bit

:53:35.:53:37.

easier to understand is Professor Sionaidh Douglas-Scott,

:53:38.:53:38.

who's Anniversary Chair in Law at Queen Mary's University of London

:53:39.:53:41.

and also a special adviser to the Scottish Parliament's European

:53:42.:53:44.

and external affairs committee Brexit inquiry.

:53:45.:53:45.

She speaks to me now in a personal capacity. First of all, the Supreme

:53:46.:53:52.

Court, the fact that the Scottish and Welsh governments, they are

:53:53.:53:56.

allowed to take part, what does that mean in practical terms, what can

:53:57.:53:59.

they do that they can do last week? It means that they can make some new

:54:00.:54:04.

arguments, these arguments were not considered in the High Court case

:54:05.:54:08.

which was won by the claimants, and some of these arguments I believe,

:54:09.:54:12.

although I have not seen the skeleton argument of the Scottish

:54:13.:54:17.

Government, might involve this issue of legislative consent. If approval

:54:18.:54:23.

is needed before the government can trickle and no Article 15 zero of,

:54:24.:54:29.

the argument will be that the Scottish Government, Scottish

:54:30.:54:31.

Parliament will also have to give its consent. This is an issue that

:54:32.:54:36.

has been raised by the Brexit minister, Mike Russell, on several

:54:37.:54:43.

occasions. If the Scottish Government refuse legislative

:54:44.:54:48.

consent, it is excepted that that will not stop Brexit happening. It

:54:49.:54:51.

might create some confusion and difficulties. The general agreement,

:54:52.:54:57.

the consensus seems to be that it is a convention, notwithstanding the

:54:58.:55:02.

parts of been written into the Scotland act 2016, but in the

:55:03.:55:06.

British constitution, the impact of governments ignoring conventions

:55:07.:55:12.

means that although legally they may be able to continue, that

:55:13.:55:19.

Westminster could still legislate, constitutionally that action would

:55:20.:55:23.

be unconstitutional. And that can have considerable consequences. Like

:55:24.:55:29.

what? For example, I give an example from Canada. Which has a legal

:55:30.:55:36.

system is similar in some parts to the British legal system, when the

:55:37.:55:42.

Canadian Prime Minister wanted to be repatriated the Canadian

:55:43.:55:48.

constitution, he ignored a constitutional requirement requiring

:55:49.:55:51.

the quiet -- legislation or consent of Qu bec. That triggered some

:55:52.:55:56.

of Quebec. That triggered some uncomfortable relations and to end

:55:57.:56:03.

the dens -- independence referendums and Qu bec. For the British

:56:04.:56:04.

and Quebec. For the British government to ignore the civil

:56:05.:56:07.

convention, and No vote, would be unconstitutional. We can say that it

:56:08.:56:14.

does not look good if governments act in a manner that is

:56:15.:56:17.

does not look good if governments unconstitutional. It has been

:56:18.:56:19.

suggested by one of the lawyers involved in the court case, that the

:56:20.:56:25.

Scottish Government and the Welsh government could go to the European

:56:26.:56:28.

court of justice and asked them for a ruling that the trigger laying of

:56:29.:56:37.

Article 30 is revoke a ball. -- article 50. If MPs did not like what

:56:38.:56:43.

was going on they could vote against what was going on and that would

:56:44.:56:47.

cancel the triggering of article 50. Does that seem plausible to you or

:56:48.:56:53.

desirable? It is a vexed question, whether the article 50 trigger is

:56:54.:56:58.

reversible or not. There is no wording on it either way. The only

:56:59.:57:04.

institution that can decide that question is the European Tour to

:57:05.:57:10.

justice. If the Institute is raised in the Supreme Court by the Scottish

:57:11.:57:13.

Government, then the question is whether the Supreme Court thinks

:57:14.:57:16.

that a decision on that matter is necessary to determine the case. It

:57:17.:57:21.

might think that and make a reference to the Luxembourg, the

:57:22.:57:25.

European Court of Justice, and that the delayed matters further. And

:57:26.:57:32.

there would be effects of that, of deciding that article 50 was after

:57:33.:57:36.

all reversible. One might be that of two years down the line, the British

:57:37.:57:41.

governments decide after all that Brexit did not mean Brexit, then

:57:42.:57:48.

Britain would not be perhaps out on its knees without any deal at all.

:57:49.:57:53.

So there are also some consequences that could follow. Briefly, there

:57:54.:57:56.

has been much talk of Scotland perhaps being able to Norway stale

:57:57.:58:00.

deal, even if the rest of the UK is perhaps being able to Norway stale

:58:01.:58:06.

out of the single market. Is that plausible? It is perhaps possible

:58:07.:58:12.

but difficult. The first problem is that for that to happen, they would

:58:13.:58:17.

have to be some agreements from the UK Government, because it is the UK

:58:18.:58:20.

Government that negotiates. There would have to be agreement on the

:58:21.:58:26.

side of the EU. I can see that there are sums technical legal problems

:58:27.:58:32.

arising about borders, for example what about classifications of goods

:58:33.:58:34.

if they cross from England into Scotland? And there will be customs

:58:35.:58:41.

unions issues and there would be issues of free movement. In Scotland

:58:42.:58:47.

is in the single market, allowing for free movement of persons, but

:58:48.:58:52.

England and perhaps the rest of the UK is not, then Scottish residents

:58:53.:58:55.

would have rates of free movement that the rest of the UK would not.

:58:56.:59:03.

Would that mean a change of UK passports. So there are some

:59:04.:59:08.

technical problems. All right, we will have to leave it there. Thank

:59:09.:59:10.

you very much for joining us. Expect to hear more

:59:11.:59:12.

about the prospects of Scotland hosting the UK's spaceport later

:59:13.:59:14.

in the week. A Conservative MP is due to ask

:59:15.:59:16.

the Secretary of State David Mundell about discussions with other

:59:17.:59:19.

Government departments on the benefits of locating

:59:20.:59:20.

the facility here. If you were cynical,

:59:21.:59:22.

you might see it as an opportunity for the Westminster government

:59:23.:59:25.

to highlight the opportunities they Be that as it may, it is a reminder

:59:26.:59:28.

that right now there are around 5500 scientists and engineers working

:59:29.:59:35.

in the space sector in Scotland. And many see a spaceport as the next

:59:36.:59:38.

logical development. Scotland is in space, not just the

:59:39.:00:00.

pipes as a tribute to a collie, but in a commercial programme that has

:00:01.:00:02.

been growing over the past few years. With Glasgow alone, there are

:00:03.:00:09.

three companies. One company building five or six spacecraft a

:00:10.:00:18.

month. And another small company has come through and they will be

:00:19.:00:21.

launching their first spacecraft this year and that is within

:00:22.:00:24.

launching their first spacecraft Glasgow. They join the 30,000 or so

:00:25.:00:28.

man-made objects in orbit around Earth. This is the structure, it

:00:29.:00:36.

would be filled with components and some are much larger, a few times is

:00:37.:00:40.

all. My research focuses on how those satellites and objects would

:00:41.:00:45.

actually re-enter our atmosphere and whether they are not whether they

:00:46.:00:51.

hit the ground. But before they can come down, they have to go up. At

:00:52.:00:56.

the moment, launching a Scottish built satellite into space means

:00:57.:01:02.

putting it onto a rocket in the former Soviet Union or French

:01:03.:01:04.

Guiana, but that could change of Scotland gets its own spaceport.

:01:05.:01:10.

Ultimately it's about having that end-to-end capability. We are

:01:11.:01:16.

greater coming up with ideas, we can build the spacecraft, we cannot

:01:17.:01:20.

launch them. There is a gap in the middle that we as the UK need to

:01:21.:01:23.

fill in Scotland is quite well-positioned for that by the

:01:24.:01:28.

nature of the geography of the UK, Scotland has potential locations for

:01:29.:01:32.

that. One personal menu is Prestwick. A satellite is just a

:01:33.:01:38.

different type of cargo. Why do we need a spaceport? At the moment we

:01:39.:01:43.

have no choice to go to Kazakhstan or French Guyana. It is very

:01:44.:01:49.

uncertain to go there, costs a lot of money and it is limiting the

:01:50.:01:52.

growth of the sector. And the main growth is coming from satellites in

:01:53.:01:57.

space. There has been a lot of that in recent years and is being held

:01:58.:02:02.

back. So why should it be on the Ayrshire coast? Affordability is a

:02:03.:02:06.

factor because we do not need to have the same level of investment

:02:07.:02:09.

that some of these places would have to have, but we do have around us is

:02:10.:02:14.

a cluster of aerospace industries which are supporting us, which means

:02:15.:02:19.

that as a business plan, going forward, we can be fairly certain

:02:20.:02:24.

that we can actually make this work. But there are other contenders.

:02:25.:02:28.

Airfields in Stornoway and Mac Hannah show. They are lengthening

:02:29.:02:37.

the airstrip. Plans for a rocket range in the Outer Hebrides were

:02:38.:02:39.

once controversial. Though no there isn't easy as for being home to a

:02:40.:02:44.

spaceport. Britain is going to need a spaceport in future for commercial

:02:45.:02:49.

space vehicles and Stornoway is certainly in the running for that.

:02:50.:02:56.

It has advantages over others. You can launch over the sea without any

:02:57.:03:01.

land getting in the week and various other advantages as well. And the

:03:02.:03:03.

hope is that wherever the spaceport ends up, it will become a hub,

:03:04.:03:08.

attracting more activity and expertise. This spaceport will be an

:03:09.:03:13.

economic boost to the area that comes to. But that will in turn

:03:14.:03:19.

attract other people to the local area to use the test facilities and

:03:20.:03:22.

to just have the access to the engineers and all the other people

:03:23.:03:27.

who will be working in and around that site. That will create a circle

:03:28.:03:29.

that will continue to build the sector. And experts hope that once

:03:30.:03:36.

we have cracked the delivery of satellites into space, it will not

:03:37.:03:42.

be too long before space tourism becomes a reality. That was Hugh

:03:43.:03:49.

Williams reporting. This week the Chancellor Phillip

:03:50.:03:52.

Hammond will deliver his first Autumn Statement, where he updates

:03:53.:03:53.

the UK Government's Mr Hammond has already

:03:54.:03:56.

abandoned his predecessor's plan to achieve a budget surplus by 2020

:03:57.:03:58.

and there's no sign of the emergency budget threatened before

:03:59.:04:02.

the vote for Brexit, I'm joined now by David Phillips

:04:03.:04:03.

who's a Senior Research Economist at The I F S expect a deterioration in

:04:04.:04:07.

the public finances over the next The I F S expect a deterioration in

:04:08.:04:25.

couple of years. How much is this a direct result of Brexit? We have

:04:26.:04:31.

crunched the numbers and we think, given tax revenues are coming in the

:04:32.:04:36.

forecast, about 6 billion deterioration in the public finances

:04:37.:04:40.

will be the result of things happening before Brexit. A far

:04:41.:04:44.

larger part is downgrading the growth forecast over the next couple

:04:45.:04:49.

of years. If we follow suit with an independent forecasters and the

:04:50.:04:54.

growth forecasts. That'll be a bigger impact on the Government tax

:04:55.:05:01.

spending. We found about ?25 billion lower revenues and ?5 billion higher

:05:02.:05:06.

spending as a result of this law economy. That follows on from the

:05:07.:05:11.

Brexit boat. The problem with this is that there has been all sorts of

:05:12.:05:16.

talk about a big programme of investing in infrastructure to

:05:17.:05:20.

create a fiscal stimulus. That becomes less possible as the budget

:05:21.:05:27.

deteriorates anyway. Indeed. When you have a large stock of debt, the

:05:28.:05:32.

Government debt is over 80% of GDP and we have a budget deficit, is

:05:33.:05:37.

harder to find more money to spend an infrastructure or to boost

:05:38.:05:40.

spending. On the other hand, interest rates are low at the

:05:41.:05:43.

moment. We might see it's a good time to take advantage of that and

:05:44.:05:49.

invest in infrastructure and also to provide a longer term based in

:05:50.:05:52.

productivity. I think what we have seen so far from the drip feed of

:05:53.:05:57.

information from the Treasury is that we are not looking at a very

:05:58.:06:06.

large fiscal stimulus. We're not looking at tens of billions of

:06:07.:06:08.

pounds but is smaller stimulus. We have seen measures on transport on

:06:09.:06:13.

roads in England and housing... The problem here though is that there is

:06:14.:06:17.

smoke and mirrors, couldn't there be? The chancellors and out every

:06:18.:06:25.

year that that is going to big spending envelope structure. George

:06:26.:06:31.

Osborne was always on about it. -- infrastructure. Governments would

:06:32.:06:36.

announce capital spending projects. They do not amount to a fiscal

:06:37.:06:42.

stimulus. I think that is the big question. How much of this is a

:06:43.:06:48.

boost to underlying spending? Is it new spending measures or is it just

:06:49.:06:53.

putting labels to be spending already announced? I think there

:06:54.:06:58.

will be a small boost in the short-term but I think you are right

:06:59.:07:01.

in saying that this is not the end of a sturdy. What this is is a

:07:02.:07:06.

potential slowing down of austerity. They are targeting a surplus budget

:07:07.:07:15.

for 2020. The longer term plan is for a budget surplus. Delayed rather

:07:16.:07:16.

than abandoned. Very briefly, jam is for a budget surplus. Delayed rather

:07:17.:07:22.

the new thing we have to talk about. These are people who are just making

:07:23.:07:26.

it through. Theresa May would like to do something for them, it is sad.

:07:27.:07:31.

10 million of them and it is very expensive. Is there anything she can

:07:32.:07:38.

do. I do not agree with the big measures on tax year. We not

:07:39.:07:42.

expecting that in the statement. What we might see is a small

:07:43.:07:46.

increase in personal allowance. That would impact on Scotland because

:07:47.:07:50.

that has not been devolved. We might see something on air passenger duty

:07:51.:07:56.

and fuel duty. Also the cuts to benefits. The real term free...

:07:57.:08:00.

Sorry, the tax freeze has been an ounce because of the higher

:08:01.:08:04.

inflation. David Phillips, thank you very much indeed.

:08:05.:08:05.

It's time to look back at the events of the past week and see what's

:08:06.:08:09.

With me now is the Scotland Editor of the Guardian Severin Carrell

:08:10.:08:18.

and Investigations Editor at the Sunday Herald Paul Hutcheon.

:08:19.:08:25.

Severin Carrell, the politics of the Autumn Statement, do you think there

:08:26.:08:34.

is a chance that he is going to come out and say there is a big

:08:35.:08:37.

deterioration in finances because of Brexit and the hard Brexit, they

:08:38.:08:44.

were mixers out to be an attempt to counter to by Philip Hammond. They

:08:45.:08:50.

might do. The politics to them is as much as the Tory's position. They

:08:51.:08:54.

are going to be concerned about whether Philip Hammond is able to

:08:55.:08:58.

deal with the smaller topics that ordinary voters are concerned about.

:08:59.:09:03.

The quality of roads, the very detailed and mundane aspects of

:09:04.:09:06.

daily life. The macro politics around whether Brexit is going to be

:09:07.:09:11.

disastrous to the economy is something that put cold parties and

:09:12.:09:12.

disastrous to the economy is that cult leadership will feed on.

:09:13.:09:17.

What Philip Hammond knows is that his party 's trusted more than any

:09:18.:09:20.

other in Westminster with the economy. There was a poll today

:09:21.:09:26.

saying that 40% of voters trust the Tories with the economy. That'll

:09:27.:09:31.

make you feel much more confident. The old BR will be a serious issue

:09:32.:09:39.

with him. The Brexiteer is all when to rally around him rather than pick

:09:40.:09:41.

with him. The Brexiteer is all when a fight with them. The investigative

:09:42.:09:48.

powers Bill was passed by the House of Lords this week. The snapper

:09:49.:09:52.

charge at some call it. You are worried about this. What are your

:09:53.:09:59.

worried about? Following the Edward Snowden revelations, the Government

:10:00.:10:07.

want to get powers that the security services have had. We have gone

:10:08.:10:12.

further than people expected. What Internet service providers now have

:10:13.:10:16.

to do it legally is hold onto people's browser history for 12

:10:17.:10:20.

months, which can then be accessed by Lauren Forstmann agencies and

:10:21.:10:27.

MI5. Don't be do that already? -- law enforcement agencies. You have

:10:28.:10:34.

this collection of data but also this police power now that is God

:10:35.:10:39.

equipment interference and they can access your phone. -- police

:10:40.:10:49.

equipment interference. That story in the Herald last week, I wonder

:10:50.:10:52.

what he got that information, if they got the judge to improve and

:10:53.:10:56.

the sees the computers and go through it and get your Internet

:10:57.:11:00.

company to tell them where you have been browsing. There is a separate

:11:01.:11:04.

element for journalists. They have to get additional information. The

:11:05.:11:11.

journalist is not informed. It is all heard in private and the

:11:12.:11:16.

journalist would never know about it. I am guessing the Guardian are

:11:17.:11:21.

not mass of fans about this either? We are not fans of it either. We are

:11:22.:11:27.

unhappy it has gone through without any opposition. There has been very

:11:28.:11:30.

little debate about this. Like a lot of other things in daily particle

:11:31.:11:37.

life and the life of the Government, everything has been obscured by the

:11:38.:11:42.

EU referendum. I just wonder if this is... I happen to know that young

:11:43.:11:44.

EU referendum. I just wonder if this people are very interested in this

:11:45.:11:48.

particular issue and it is an issue with the media and the young people

:11:49.:11:54.

do seem to have very serious concerns. That is true but ordinary

:11:55.:12:01.

voters may be comfortable with this. We are already one of the most

:12:02.:12:06.

surveyed societies in the world. We have a higher level of CCTV

:12:07.:12:11.

surveillance in our ordinary life. It may be that the British

:12:12.:12:14.

electorate as a whole are relatively sanguine about it. People like

:12:15.:12:19.

myself and Paul and others whose job it is to challenge and investigate

:12:20.:12:23.

and probe feel deeply unhappy about it. We are making efforts to try and

:12:24.:12:30.

get past it. Brexit, Paul, shown that was very clear in expelling

:12:31.:12:33.

some of the legal things. Does this amount any more than tossing a load

:12:34.:12:38.

of spanners in the general direction and hoping they get caught up in it.

:12:39.:12:44.

I had a chat with a couple of civil servants this week you were speaking

:12:45.:12:48.

privately and anonymously they do not think that the Scottish

:12:49.:12:52.

intervention is going to amount to much at all. I think it is more

:12:53.:12:53.

intervention is going to amount to about the symbolism and gesture of

:12:54.:12:58.

it. Being seen to do something. In the final analysis built in the

:12:59.:13:05.

Scottish Parliament a say, will it be blocking Brexit? Of course it

:13:06.:13:06.

want. It is based and not legally be blocking Brexit? Of course it

:13:07.:13:14.

binding. I just wonder whether the legal rout of just triggering

:13:15.:13:24.

Article 50, having to decide on what Brexit will be when the British

:13:25.:13:28.

Government has finished its negotiations. Simply MPs will want

:13:29.:13:32.

to say we will decide that. There are some in a different actors MS

:13:33.:13:36.

that this could go on Sony different directions. The Supreme Court

:13:37.:13:42.

decision is expected early next year. Having European judges...

:13:43.:13:50.

Surely MPs are saying... This could go on and on. There is no doubt

:13:51.:13:54.

about it at all. The layers of complexity are so great that I think

:13:55.:13:59.

some people are strapping themselves in for some years of legal conflict.

:14:00.:14:04.

We will have to leave it there. Thank you to the both of you.

:14:05.:14:05.

I'll be back at the same time next week.

:14:06.:14:09.

is announcing the first Autumn Statement since the EU referendum.

:14:10.:14:22.

The BBC will explain what that means for you,

:14:23.:14:24.

with live coverage and expert analysis.

:14:25.:14:28.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS