27/11/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


27/11/2016

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:40.

Was Fidel Castro a revolutionary hero or a murderous dictator?

:00:41.:00:44.

After the Cuban leader's death, politicians divide over his legacy.

:00:45.:00:49.

Can the NHS in England find billions of pounds' worth of efficiency

:00:50.:00:53.

The Shadow Health Secretary joins me live.

:00:54.:00:59.

Should we have a second Brexit referendum on the terms

:01:00.:01:01.

of the eventual withdrawal deal that's struck with the EU?

:01:02.:01:06.

Former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown and former Conservative cabinet

:01:07.:01:08.

minister Owen Paterson go head-to-head.

:01:09.:01:13.

And on Sunday Politics Scotland, I'll be speaking to the Scottish

:01:14.:01:15.

Secretary David Mundell about the Autumn Statement,

:01:16.:01:17.

And we'll take a look at how Stirling will benefit

:01:18.:01:20.

And with me, Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

:01:21.:01:35.

They'll be tweeting throughout the programme

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Political leaders around the world have been reacting to the news

:01:39.:01:45.

of the death of Fidel Castro, the Cuban revolutionary who came

:01:46.:01:47.

to power in 1959 and ushered in a Marxist revolution.

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Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson described the former leader

:01:52.:01:56.

as an "historic if controversial figure" and said his death marked

:01:57.:01:59.

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said Castro was "a champion of social

:02:00.:02:03.

justice" who had "seen off a lot of US presidents"

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President-elect Donald Trump described the former Cuban leader

:02:06.:02:10.

as a "brutal dictator", adding that he hoped his death

:02:11.:02:13.

would begin a new era "in which the wonderful Cuban people

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finally live in the freedom they so richly deserve".

:02:18.:02:21.

Meanwhile, the President of the European Commission,

:02:22.:02:23.

Jean-Claude Juncker, said the controversial leader

:02:24.:02:26.

was "a hero for many" but "his legacy will be judged

:02:27.:02:29.

I guess we had worked that out ourselves. What do you make of the

:02:30.:02:44.

reactions so far across the political divide? Predictable. And I

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noticed that Jeremy Corbyn has come in for criticism for his tribute to

:02:50.:02:56.

Castro. But I think it was the right thing for him to do. We all know he

:02:57.:03:00.

was an admirer. He could have sat there for eight hours in his house,

:03:01.:03:04.

agonising over some bland statement which didn't alienate the many

:03:05.:03:07.

people who want to wade into attacked Castro. It would have been

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inauthentic and would have just added to the sort of mainstream

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consensus, and I think he was right to say what he believed in this

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respect. Elsewhere, it has been wholly predictable that there would

:03:21.:03:25.

be this device, because he divided opinion in such an emotive way.

:03:26.:03:31.

Steve, I take your point about authenticity and it might have

:03:32.:03:34.

looked a bit lame for Jeremy Corbyn to pretend that he had no affection

:03:35.:03:40.

for Fidel Castro at all, but do you think he made a bit of an error

:03:41.:03:44.

dismissing Castro's record, the negative side of it as just a floor?

:03:45.:03:49.

He could have acknowledged in more elaborate terms the huge costs. He

:03:50.:03:56.

wanted to go on about the health and education, which if you actually

:03:57.:03:59.

look up the indices on that, they are good relative to other

:04:00.:04:01.

countries. But they have come at such a huge cost. He was not a

:04:02.:04:08.

champion of criminal justice. If he had done that, it would have been

:04:09.:04:12.

utterly inauthentic. He doesn't believe it. And he would have

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thought there would be many other people focusing on all the epic

:04:19.:04:22.

failings. So he focused on what he believed. There are times when

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Corbyn's prominence in the media world now as leader widens the

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debate in an interesting and important way. I am not aware of any

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criticisms that Mr Corbyn has ever announced about Mr Castro. There

:04:42.:04:52.

were four words in his statement yesterday which is spin doctor would

:04:53.:04:55.

have forced him to say, for all his flaws. He was on this Cuban

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solidarity committee, which didn't exist to criticise Castro. It

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existed to help protect Castro from those, particularly the Americans,

:05:10.:05:13.

who were trying to undermine him. And Corbyn made a big deal yesterday

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saying he has always called out human rights abuses all over the

:05:18.:05:23.

world. But he said that in general, I call out human rights abuses. He

:05:24.:05:27.

never said, I have called out human rights abuses in Cuba. In the weeks

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ahead, more will come out about what these human rights abuses were. The

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lid will come off what was actually happening. Some well authenticated

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stories are pretty horrendous. I was speaking to a journalist who was

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working there in the 1990s, who gave me vivid examples of that, and there

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will be more to come. I still go back to, when a major figure diet

:06:02.:06:05.

and you are a leader who has admired but major figure, you have to say

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it. That is the trap he has fallen into. He has proved every criticism

:06:12.:06:28.

that he is a duck old ideologue. But he is not the only one. Prime

:06:29.:06:34.

Minister Trudeau was so if uses that I wondered if they were going to

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open up a book of condolences. I think it reinforces Corbyn's failing

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brand. It may be authentic, but authentic isn't working for him.

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When I was driving, I heard Trevor Phillips, who is a Blairite, saying

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the record was mixed and there were a lot of things to admire as well as

:06:57.:07:01.

all the terrible things. So it is quite nuanced. But if you are a

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leader issuing a sound bite, there is no space for new ones. You either

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decide to go for the consensus, which is to set up on the whole, it

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was a brutal dictatorship. Or you say, here is an extraordinary figure

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worthy of admiration. In my view, he was right to say what he believed.

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There was still a dilemma for the British government over who they

:07:25.:07:28.

sent to the funeral. Do they sent nobody, do they say and Boris

:07:29.:07:35.

Johnson as a post-ironic statement? There is now a post-Castro Cuba to

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deal with. Trump was quite diplomatic about post-Castro Cuba.

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And Boris Johnson's statement was restrained. The thing about Mr

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Castro was the longevity, 50 years of keeping Marxism on the island.

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That was what made it so fascinating.

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Before the last election, George Osborne promised the NHS

:08:00.:08:03.

in England a real-terms funding boost of ?8 billion per year by 2020

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on the understanding that NHS bosses would also find ?22 billion worth

:08:08.:08:10.

Since last autumn, NHS managers have been drawing up what they're calling

:08:11.:08:17.

"Sustainability and Transformation Plans" to make these savings,

:08:18.:08:20.

but some of the proposals are already running into local

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opposition, while Labour say they amount to huge cuts to the NHS.

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Help is on the way for an elderly person in need in Hertfordshire.

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But east of England ambulance call operators

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they're sending an early intervention vehicle

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with a council-employed occupational therapist on board.

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It's being piloted here for over 65s with

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When they arrive, a paramedic judges if the patient can be

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treated immediately at home without a trip to hospital.

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Around 80% of patients have been treated this way,

:09:01.:09:03.

taking the strain off urgently-needed hospital beds,

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So the early intervention team has assessed the patient and decided

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The key to successful integration for Hertfordshire being able

:09:13.:09:25.

to collaboratively look at how we use our resources,

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to have pooled budgets, to allow us to understand

:09:28.:09:29.

where spend is, and to let us make conscientious decisions about how

:09:30.:09:33.

best to use that money, to come up with ideas to problems

:09:34.:09:37.

that sit between our organisations, to look at things collaboratively.

:09:38.:09:40.

This Hertfordshire hospital is also a good example of how

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You won't find an A unit or overnight beds here any more.

:09:43.:09:50.

The closest ones are 20 minutes down the road.

:09:51.:09:55.

What's left is nurse-led care in an NHS-built hospital.

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Despite a politically toxic change, this reconfiguration went

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through after broad public and political consultation

:10:02.:10:03.

with hospital clinicians and GPs on board.

:10:04.:10:07.

It's a notable achievement that's surely of interest to 60% of NHS

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trusts in England that reported a deficit at the end of September.

:10:12.:10:17.

It's not just here that the NHS needs to save money and provide

:10:18.:10:20.

The Government is going to pour in an extra ?8 billion into the NHS

:10:21.:10:27.

in England, but it has demanded ?22 billion

:10:28.:10:33.

worth of efficiencies across the country.

:10:34.:10:35.

In order to deliver that, the NHS has created 44 health

:10:36.:10:38.

and care partnerships, and each one will provide

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a sustainability and transformation plan, or STP, to integrate care,

:10:41.:10:44.

provide better services and save money.

:10:45.:10:48.

So far, 33 of these 44 regional plans, drawn up by senior people

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in the health service and local government,

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The NHS has been through five years of severely constrained spending

:10:56.:11:02.

growth, and there are another 4-5 years on the way at least.

:11:03.:11:05.

STPs themselves are an attempt to deal in a planned way

:11:06.:11:11.

But with plans to close some A units and reduce the number

:11:12.:11:18.

of hospital beds, there's likely to be a tough political battle

:11:19.:11:23.

ahead, with many MPs already up in arms about proposed

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This Tory backbencher is concerned about the local plans for his

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I wouldn't call it an efficiency if you are proposing to close

:11:31.:11:38.

all of the beds which are currently provided for those coming out

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of the acute sector who are elderly and looking

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That's not a cut, it's not an efficiency saving,

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All 44 STPs should be published in a month's time,

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But even before that, they dominated this week's PMQs.

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The Government's sustainability and transformation plans

:12:02.:12:04.

for the National Health Service hide ?22 billion of cuts.

:12:05.:12:10.

The National Health Service is indeed looking for savings

:12:11.:12:12.

within the NHS, which will be reinvested in the NHS.

:12:13.:12:17.

There will be no escape from angry MPs for the Health Secretary either.

:12:18.:12:21.

Well, I have spoken to the Secretary of State just this week

:12:22.:12:24.

about the importance of community hospitals in general,

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These are proposals out to consultation.

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What could happen if these plans get blocked?

:12:36.:12:40.

If STPs cannot be made to work, the planned changes don't come

:12:41.:12:43.

to pass, then the NHS will see over time a sort of unplanned

:12:44.:12:48.

deterioration and services becoming unstable and service

:12:49.:12:50.

The NHS barely featured in this week's Autumn Statement

:12:51.:12:56.

but the Prime Minister insisted beforehand that STPs

:12:57.:13:03.

are in the interests of local people.

:13:04.:13:05.

Her Government's support will now be critical for NHS England

:13:06.:13:07.

to push through these controversial regional plans,

:13:08.:13:09.

which will soon face public scrutiny.

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We did ask the Department of Health for an interview,

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I've been joined by the Shadow Health Secretary,

:13:22.:13:24.

Do you accept that the NHS is capable of making ?22 billion of

:13:25.:13:41.

efficiency savings? Well, we are very sceptical, as are number of

:13:42.:13:45.

independent organisations about the ability of the NHS to find 22

:13:46.:13:50.

billion of efficiencies without that affecting front line care. When you

:13:51.:13:54.

drill down into the 22 billion, based on the information we have

:13:55.:13:57.

been given, and there hasn't been much information, we can see that

:13:58.:14:01.

some of it will come from cutting the budget which go to community

:14:02.:14:05.

pharmacies, which could lead, according to ministers, to 3000

:14:06.:14:08.

pharmacies closing, which we believe will increase demands on A and

:14:09.:14:13.

GPs, and also that a lot of these changes which are being proposed,

:14:14.:14:17.

which was the focus of the package, we think will mean service cuts at a

:14:18.:14:25.

local level. Do they? The chief executive of NHS England says these

:14:26.:14:31.

efficiency plans are "Incredibly important". He used to work from

:14:32.:14:34.

Labour. The independent King's Fund calls them "The best hope to improve

:14:35.:14:42.

health and care services. There is no plan B". On the sustainable

:14:43.:14:48.

transformation plans, which will be across England to link up physical

:14:49.:14:51.

health, mental health and social care, for those services to

:14:52.:14:56.

collaborate more closely together and move beyond the fragmented

:14:57.:14:58.

system we have at the moment is important. It seems that the ground

:14:59.:15:05.

has shifted. It has moved into filling financial gaps. As we know,

:15:06.:15:09.

the NHS is going through the biggest financial squeeze in its history. By

:15:10.:15:14.

2018, per head spending on the NHS will be falling. If you want to

:15:15.:15:17.

redesign services for the long term in a local area, you need to put the

:15:18.:15:23.

money in. So of course, getting these services working better

:15:24.:15:26.

together and having a greater strategic oversight, which we would

:15:27.:15:30.

have had if we had not got rid of strategic health authority is in the

:15:31.:15:35.

last Parliament. But this is not an attempt to save 22 billion, this is

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an attempt to spend 22 billion more successfully, don't you accept that?

:15:41.:15:47.

Simon Stevens said we need 8 billion, and we need to find 22

:15:48.:15:54.

billion of savings. You have to spend 22 billion more efficiently.

:15:55.:15:59.

But the Government have not given that 8 billion to the NHS which they

:16:00.:16:04.

said they would. They said they would do it by 2020. But they have

:16:05.:16:10.

changed the definitions of spending so NHS England will get 8 billion by

:16:11.:16:15.

2020, but they have cut the public health budgets by about 4 million by

:16:16.:16:21.

20 20. The budget that going to initiatives to tackle sexually

:16:22.:16:25.

transmitted diseases, to tackle smoking have been cut back but the

:16:26.:16:30.

commissioning of things like school nurses and health visitors have been

:16:31.:16:34.

cut back as well. Simon Stevens said he can only deliver that five-year

:16:35.:16:38.

project if there is a radical upgrade in public health, which the

:16:39.:16:42.

Government have failed on, and if we deal with social care, and this week

:16:43.:16:47.

there was an... I understand that, but if you don't think the

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efficiency drive can free up 22 billion to take us to 30 billion by

:16:55.:17:00.

2020, where would you get the money from? I have been in this post now

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for five or six weeks and I want to have a big consultation with

:17:05.:17:07.

everybody who works in the health sector, as well as patients, carers

:17:08.:17:13.

and families. Though you don't know? I think it would be surprised if I

:17:14.:17:20.

had an arbitrary figure this soon into the job. Your party said they

:17:21.:17:26.

expected election of spring by this year, you need to have some idea by

:17:27.:17:31.

now, you inherited a portfolio from Diane Abbott, did she have no idea?

:17:32.:17:36.

To govern is to make choices and we would make different choices. The

:17:37.:17:41.

budget last year scored billions of giveaways in things like

:17:42.:17:48.

co-operating -- corporation tax. What I do want to do... Is work on a

:17:49.:17:59.

plan and the general election, whenever it comes, next year or in

:18:00.:18:05.

2020 or in between, to have costed plan for the NHS. But your party is

:18:06.:18:09.

committed to balancing the books on current spending, that is currently

:18:10.:18:15.

John McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor's position. What we are

:18:16.:18:20.

talking about, this extra 30 billion, that is essentially current

:18:21.:18:24.

spending so if it doesn't come from efficiency savings, where does the

:18:25.:18:28.

money come from? Some of it is also capital. Mainly current spending. If

:18:29.:18:35.

you look at the details of the OBR, they have switched a million from

:18:36.:18:47.

the capital into revenue. Why -- how do you balance spending?

:18:48.:18:50.

That is why we need to have a debate. Every time we ask for

:18:51.:18:59.

Labour's policy, we are always told me a debate. Surely it is time to

:19:00.:19:03.

give some idea of what you stand for? There's huge doubts about the

:19:04.:19:07.

Government 's policy on this. You are the opposition, how would you do

:19:08.:19:12.

it? I want to work with John McDonnell to find a package to give

:19:13.:19:16.

the NHS the money it needs, but of course our Shadow Chancellor, like

:19:17.:19:20.

any Shadow Chancellor at this stage in the cycle, will want to see what

:19:21.:19:24.

the books look like a head of an election before making commitments.

:19:25.:19:30.

I am clear that the Labour Party has to go into the next general election

:19:31.:19:33.

with a clear policy to give the NHS the funding it needs because it has

:19:34.:19:36.

been going through the largest financial squeeze in its history.

:19:37.:19:41.

You say Labour will always give the NHS the money it needs, that is not

:19:42.:19:46.

a policy, it is a blank cheque. It is an indication of our commitment

:19:47.:19:51.

to the NHS. Under this Conservative government, the NHS has been getting

:19:52.:19:55.

a 1% increase. Throughout its history it has usually have about

:19:56.:20:00.

4%. Under the last Labour government it was getting 4%, before that

:20:01.:20:05.

substantially more. We think the NHS should get more but I don't have

:20:06.:20:08.

access to the NHS books in front of me. The public thinks there needs to

:20:09.:20:17.

be more money spent on health but they also think that should go cap

:20:18.:20:22.

in hand with the money being more efficiently spent, which is what

:20:23.:20:27.

this efficiency drive is designed to release 22 billion. Do you have an

:20:28.:20:33.

efficiency drive if it is not the Government's one? Of course we

:20:34.:20:38.

agree. We agree the NHS should be more efficient, we want to see

:20:39.:20:42.

productivity increased. Do know how to do that? One way is through

:20:43.:20:50.

investments, maintenance, but there is a 5 million maintenance backlog.

:20:51.:20:56.

One of the most high risk backlogs is something like 730 million. They

:20:57.:21:03.

are going to switch the capital spend into revenue spend. I believe

:21:04.:21:07.

that when you invest in maintenance and capital in the NHS, that

:21:08.:21:11.

contribute to increasing its productivity. You are now talking

:21:12.:21:15.

about 5 billion the maintenance, the chief executive says it needs 30

:21:16.:21:21.

billion more by 2020 as a minimum so that 35 billion. You want to spend

:21:22.:21:28.

more on social care, another for 5 billion on that so we have proper

:21:29.:21:32.

care in the community. By that calculation I'm up to about 40

:21:33.:21:36.

billion, which is fine, except where do you get the and balance the

:21:37.:21:40.

account at the same time? We will have to come up with a plan for that

:21:41.:21:45.

and that's why I will work with our Shadow Treasury team to come up with

:21:46.:21:48.

that plan when they head into the general election. At the moment we

:21:49.:21:52.

are saying to the NHS, sorry, we are not going to give you the

:21:53.:21:56.

investment, which is why we are seeing patient care deteriorating.

:21:57.:22:04.

The staff are doing incredible things but 180,000 are waiting in

:22:05.:22:09.

A beyond four hours, record levels of people delayed in beds in

:22:10.:22:13.

hospitals because there are not the beds in the community to go to save

:22:14.:22:17.

the NHS needs the investment. We know that and we know the

:22:18.:22:21.

Government's response to that and many think it is inadequate. What

:22:22.:22:25.

I'm trying to get from you is what your response would be and what your

:22:26.:22:28.

reaction will be to these efficiency plans. Your colleague Heidi

:22:29.:22:33.

Alexander, she had your job earlier this year, she warned of the danger

:22:34.:22:40.

of knee jerk blanket opposition to local efficiency plans. Do you agree

:22:41.:22:47.

with that? Yes. So every time a hospital is going to close as a

:22:48.:22:53.

result of this, and some will, it is Labour default position not just

:22:54.:22:57.

going to be we are against it? That is why we are going to judge each of

:22:58.:23:01.

these sustainability plans by a number of yardsticks. We want to see

:23:02.:23:05.

if they have the support of local clinicians, we want to see if they

:23:06.:23:09.

have the support of local authorities because they now have a

:23:10.:23:12.

role in the delivery of health care. We want to see if they make the

:23:13.:23:16.

right decisions for the long-term trends in population for local area.

:23:17.:23:20.

We want to see if they integrate social care and health. If they

:23:21.:23:24.

don't and therefore you will not bank that as an efficiency saving,

:23:25.:23:30.

you will say no, that's not the way to go, you are left then with

:23:31.:23:34.

finding the alternative funding to keep the NHS going. If you are

:23:35.:23:40.

cutting beds, for example the proposal is to cut something like

:23:41.:23:46.

5000 beds in Derbyshire and if there is the space in the community sector

:23:47.:23:49.

in Derbyshire, that will cause big problems for the NHS in the long

:23:50.:23:54.

term so it is a false economy. An example like that, we would be very

:23:55.:23:59.

sceptical the plans could work. Would it not be honest, given the

:24:00.:24:02.

sums of money involved and your doubts about the efficiency plan,

:24:03.:24:08.

which are shared by many people, to just say, look, among the wealthy

:24:09.:24:13.

nations, we spend a lower proportion of our GDP on health than most of

:24:14.:24:19.

the other countries, European countries included, we need to put

:24:20.:24:24.

up tax if we want a proper NHS. Wouldn't that be honest? I'm not the

:24:25.:24:30.

Shadow Chancellor, I don't make taxation policy. You are tempting me

:24:31.:24:36.

down a particular road by you or I smile. John McDonnell will come up

:24:37.:24:40.

with our taxation policy. We have had an ambition to meet the European

:24:41.:24:44.

average, the way these things are measured have changed since then,

:24:45.:24:47.

but we did have that ambition and for a few years we met it. We need

:24:48.:24:54.

substantial investment in the NHS. Everyone accepts it was

:24:55.:24:56.

extraordinary that there wasn't an extra penny for the NHS in the

:24:57.:25:00.

Autumn Statement this week. And as we go into the general election,

:25:01.:25:05.

whenever it is, we will have a plan for the NHS. Come back and speak to

:25:06.:25:10.

us when you know what you are going to do. Thank you.

:25:11.:25:12.

Theresa May has promised to trigger formal Brexit negotiations

:25:13.:25:15.

before the end of March, but the Prime Minister must wait

:25:16.:25:17.

for the Supreme Court to decide whether parliament must vote

:25:18.:25:20.

If that is the Supreme Court's conclusion, the Liberal Democrats

:25:21.:25:23.

and others in parliament have said they'll demand a second EU

:25:24.:25:26.

referendum on the terms of the eventual Brexit deal before

:25:27.:25:28.

And last week, two former Prime Ministers suggested

:25:29.:25:31.

that the referendum result could be reversed.

:25:32.:25:34.

In an interview with the New Statesman on Thursday,

:25:35.:25:38.

Tony Blair said, "It can be stopped if the British people decide that,

:25:39.:25:41.

having seen what it means, the pain-gain cost-benefit analysis

:25:42.:25:43.

John Major also weighed in, telling a meeting

:25:44.:25:50.

of the National Liberal Club that the terms of Brexit

:25:51.:25:52.

were being dictated by the "tyranny of the majority".

:25:53.:25:54.

He also said there is a "perfectly credible case"

:25:55.:25:56.

That prompted the former Conservative leader

:25:57.:26:00.

Iain Duncan Smith to criticise John Major.

:26:01.:26:04.

He told the BBC, "The idea we delay everything simply

:26:05.:26:06.

because they disagree with the original result does

:26:07.:26:08.

seem to me an absolute dismissal of democracy."

:26:09.:26:13.

So, is there a realistic chance of a second referendum on the terms

:26:14.:26:17.

of whatever Brexit deal Theresa May manages to secure?

:26:18.:26:21.

Lib Dem party leader Tim Farron has said, "We want to respect

:26:22.:26:25.

the will of the people and that means they must have their say

:26:26.:26:28.

in a referendum on the terms of the deal."

:26:29.:26:31.

But the Lib Dems have just eight MPs - they'll need Labour support

:26:32.:26:35.

One ally is former Labour leadership candidate Owen Smith.

:26:36.:26:40.

He backs the idea of a second referendum.

:26:41.:26:44.

But yesterday the party's deputy leader, Tom Watson, said that,

:26:45.:26:47.

"Unlike the Lib Dem Brexit Deniers, we believe in respecting

:26:48.:26:49.

To discuss whether or not there should be a second referendum

:26:50.:26:57.

on the terms of the Brexit deal, I've been joined by two

:26:58.:27:00.

In Somerset is the former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown,

:27:01.:27:04.

and in Shropshire is the former Conservative cabinet minister

:27:05.:27:05.

Paddy Ashdown, let me come to you first. When the British people have

:27:06.:27:18.

spoken, you do what they command, either you believe in democracy or

:27:19.:27:23.

you don't. When democracy speaks, we obey. Your words on the night of the

:27:24.:27:30.

referendum, what's changed? Nothing has changed, Andrew, that's what I

:27:31.:27:33.

said and what I still believe in. The British people have spoken, we

:27:34.:27:38.

will not block Parliament debating the Brexit decision, Article 50, but

:27:39.:27:44.

we will introduce an amendment to say that we need to consult the

:27:45.:27:51.

British people, not about if we go out but what destination we would

:27:52.:27:58.

then achieve. There is a vast difference in ordinary people's

:27:59.:28:02.

lives between the so-called hard Brexit and soft Brexit. Soft Brexit,

:28:03.:28:06.

you remain in the single market, you have to accept and agree on

:28:07.:28:11.

immigration. Hard Brexit you are out of the single market, we have many

:28:12.:28:19.

fewer jobs... Why didn't you say before the referendum there would be

:28:20.:28:25.

a second referendum on the terms? Forgive me, I said it on many

:28:26.:28:29.

occasions, you may not have covered it, Andrew, but that's a different

:28:30.:28:34.

thing. In every speech I gave I said this, and this has proved to be

:28:35.:28:38.

true, since those who recommended Brexit refused to tell us the

:28:39.:28:42.

destination they were recommending, they refuse to give any detail about

:28:43.:28:47.

the destination, if we did vote to go out, it would probably be

:28:48.:28:51.

appropriate to decide which destination, hard Brexit or soft

:28:52.:28:55.

Brexit we go to. They deliberately obscure that because it made it more

:28:56.:29:00.

difficult to argue the case. It wasn't part of the official campaign

:29:01.:29:06.

but let me come to Owen Paterson. What's wrong with a referendum on

:29:07.:29:10.

the terms of the deal? We voted to leave but we don't really know on

:29:11.:29:14.

what conditions we leave so what's wrong with negotiating the deal and

:29:15.:29:17.

putting that deal to the British people? This would be a ridiculous

:29:18.:29:25.

idea, it would be a complete gift to the EU negotiators to go for an

:29:26.:29:30.

impossibly difficult deal because they want to do everything to make

:29:31.:29:34.

sure that Brexit does not go through. This nonsense idea of hard

:29:35.:29:39.

Brexit and soft Brexit, it was never discussed during the referendum

:29:40.:29:43.

campaign. We made it clear we wanted to take back control, that means

:29:44.:29:49.

making our own laws, raising and spending the money agreed by elected

:29:50.:29:53.

politicians, getting control of our own borders back, and getting

:29:54.:29:56.

control of our ability to do trade deals around the world. That was

:29:57.:30:00.

clear at all stages of the referendum. We got 17.4 million

:30:01.:30:06.

votes, the biggest vote in history for any issue, that 52%, 10% more

:30:07.:30:11.

than John Major got and he was happy with his record number of 14

:30:12.:30:16.

million, more than Tony Blair got, which was 43%, so we have a very

:30:17.:30:20.

clear mandate. Time and again people come up to me and say when are we

:30:21.:30:25.

going to get on with this. The big problem is uncertainty. We want to

:30:26.:30:29.

trigger Article 50, have the negotiation and get to a better

:30:30.:30:31.

place. OK, I need to get a debate going.

:30:32.:30:41.

Paddy Ashdown, the EU doesn't want us to leave. If they knew there was

:30:42.:30:45.

going to be a second referendum, surely there was going to be a

:30:46.:30:47.

second referendum, surely their incentive would be to give us the

:30:48.:30:49.

worst possible deal would vote against it would put us in a

:30:50.:30:55.

ridiculous negotiating position. On the contrary, the government could

:30:56.:30:59.

go and negotiate with the European Union and anyway, the opinion of the

:31:00.:31:02.

European Union is less important than the opinion of the British

:31:03.:31:06.

people. It seems to me that Owen Paterson made the case for me

:31:07.:31:10.

precisely. They refuse to discuss what kind of destination. Britain

:31:11.:31:16.

voted for departure, but not a destination. Because Owen Paterson

:31:17.:31:19.

and his colleagues refused to discuss what their model was. So the

:31:20.:31:24.

range of options here and the impact on the people of Britain is huge.

:31:25.:31:28.

There is nothing to stop the government going to negotiate,

:31:29.:31:31.

getting the best deal it can and go into the British people and saying,

:31:32.:31:37.

this is the deal, guys, do you agree? Owen Paterson? It is simple.

:31:38.:31:44.

The British people voted to leave. We voted to take back control of our

:31:45.:31:51.

laws, our money, our borders. But most people don't know the shape of

:31:52.:31:54.

what the deal would be. So why not have a vote on it? Because it would

:31:55.:32:01.

be a gift to the EU negotiators to drive the worst possible deal in the

:32:02.:32:06.

hope that it might be chucked out with a second referendum. The

:32:07.:32:10.

biggest danger is the uncertainty. We have the biggest vote in British

:32:11.:32:17.

history. You have said all that. It was your side that originally

:32:18.:32:21.

proposed a second referendum. The director of Leave said, there is a

:32:22.:32:26.

strong democratic case for a referendum on what the deal looks

:32:27.:32:32.

like. Your side. Come on, you are digging up a blog from June of 2015.

:32:33.:32:42.

He said he had not come to a conclusion. He said it is a distinct

:32:43.:32:50.

possibility. No senior members of the campaign said we would have a

:32:51.:32:55.

second referendum. It is worth chucking Paddy the quote he gave on

:32:56.:32:59.

ITV news, whether it is a majority of 1% or 20%, when the British

:33:00.:33:02.

people have spoken, you do what they command. People come up to me and

:33:03.:33:10.

keep asking, when are you going to get on with it? What do you say to

:33:11.:33:13.

keep asking, when are you going to that, Paddy Ashdown? Owen Paterson

:33:14.:33:21.

has obviously not been paying attention. You ask me that question

:33:22.:33:22.

has obviously not been paying at the start. Owen and his kind have

:33:23.:33:33.

to stick to the same argument. During the referendum, when we said

:33:34.:33:36.

that the Europeans have it in their interest to picket tough for us,

:33:37.:33:42.

they would suffer as well. And that has proved to be right. The European

:33:43.:33:46.

Union does not wish to hand as a bad deal, because they may suffer in the

:33:47.:33:51.

process. We need the best deal for both sides. I can't understand why

:33:52.:34:03.

Owen is now reversing that argument. Here is the question I am going to

:34:04.:34:07.

ask you. If we have a second referendum on the deal and we vote

:34:08.:34:16.

by a very small amount, by a sliver, to stay in, can we then make it

:34:17.:34:27.

best-of-3? No, Andrew! Vince Cable says he thinks if you won, he would

:34:28.:34:32.

have to have a decider. You will have to put that income tax, because

:34:33.:34:34.

I don't remember when he said that. I don't remember when he said that.

:34:35.:34:43.

-- you have to put that in context. Independent, 19th of September. That

:34:44.:34:49.

is a decision on the outcome. The central point is that the British

:34:50.:34:52.

people voted for departure, not a destination. In response to the

:34:53.:34:58.

claim that this is undemocratic, if it is democratic to have one

:34:59.:35:03.

referendum, how can it be undemocratic to have two?

:35:04.:35:06.

referendum, how can it be Paterson, the British government, on

:35:07.:35:08.

the brink of triggering article 50, cannot tell us if we will remain

:35:09.:35:13.

members of the single market, if we will remain members of the customs

:35:14.:35:19.

union. From that flows our ability to make trade deals, our attitude

:35:20.:35:24.

towards freedom of movement and the rest of it. Given that the

:35:25.:35:26.

government can't tell us, it is clear that the British people have

:35:27.:35:30.

no idea what the eventual shape will be. That is surely the fundamental

:35:31.:35:36.

case for a second referendum. Emphatically not. They have given a

:35:37.:35:43.

clear vote. That vote was to take back control. What the establishment

:35:44.:35:50.

figures like Paddy should recognise is the shattering damage it would do

:35:51.:35:53.

to the integrity of the whole political process if this was not

:35:54.:36:00.

delivered. People come up to me, as I have said for the third time now,

:36:01.:36:03.

wanting to know when we will get article 50 triggered. Both people

:36:04.:36:09.

who have voted to Remain and to Leave. If we do not deliver this, it

:36:10.:36:14.

will be disastrous for the reputation and integrity of the

:36:15.:36:18.

whole political establishment. Let me put that you Paddy Ashdown. It is

:36:19.:36:26.

very Brussels elite - were ask your question but if we don't like the

:36:27.:36:28.

very Brussels elite - were ask your answer, we will keep asking the

:36:29.:36:32.

question. Did it with the Irish and French. It is... It would really

:36:33.:36:39.

anger the British people, would it not? That is an interesting

:36:40.:36:46.

question, Andrew. I don't think it would. All the evidence I see in

:36:47.:36:50.

public meetings I attended, and I think it is beginning to show in the

:36:51.:36:53.

opinion polls, although there hasn't been a proper one on this yet, I

:36:54.:36:56.

suspect there is a majority in Britain who would wish to see a

:36:57.:37:00.

second referendum on the outcome. They take the same view as I do.

:37:01.:37:05.

What began with an open democratic process cannot end with a government

:37:06.:37:10.

stitch up. Contrary to what Owen suggests, there is public support

:37:11.:37:15.

for this. And far from damaging the government and the political class,

:37:16.:37:20.

it showed that we are prepared to listen. We shall see. Paddy Ashdown,

:37:21.:37:27.

have you eaten your hat yet? Andrew, as you well know, I have eaten five

:37:28.:37:35.

hats. You cannot have a second referendum until you eat your hat on

:37:36.:37:38.

my programme. We will leave it there. Paddy Ashdown and Owen

:37:39.:37:45.

Paterson, thank you much. I have eaten a hat on your programme. I

:37:46.:37:48.

don't remember! It's just gone 11.35,

:37:49.:37:50.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. Good morning and welcome

:37:51.:37:58.

to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme,

:37:59.:38:00.

in a moment, I'll be asking the Scottish Secretary,

:38:01.:38:03.

David Mundell, which powers he thinks should be devolved

:38:04.:38:04.

to Scotland as a result of Brexit. Nicola Sturgeon heads to Dublin this

:38:05.:38:09.

week to talk Business and Brexit with Irish politicians,

:38:10.:38:12.

but is this Scottish government diplomatic offensive

:38:13.:38:14.

really getting anywhere? And will a new city deal mean

:38:15.:38:19.

a new renaissance for Stirling? Could even more powers be devolved

:38:20.:38:28.

to Holyrood as a result of the UK's That appears to be the indication

:38:29.:38:31.

from the Scottish Secretary It comes against the backdrop

:38:32.:38:37.

of more capital investment for Scotland, which was announced

:38:38.:38:40.

in this week's Autumn Statement. David Mundell, first of all, on the

:38:41.:38:58.

Autumn Statement, there was much fuss made about helping ordinary

:38:59.:39:02.

families, wasn't there? The issue for fiscal studies reckons that

:39:03.:39:05.

families, wasn't there? The issue people on average earnings are still

:39:06.:39:08.

not earning as much as they did before the financial crash, and will

:39:09.:39:12.

not be earning as much as they did before the financial crash by the

:39:13.:39:17.

end of the forecasting period, which is 2020-21. That can't be something

:39:18.:39:22.

you are particularly proud of. What we've tried to do in the Autumn

:39:23.:39:28.

Statement is specifically help those people and help those people by

:39:29.:39:33.

increasing the personal allowance, help people on the lowest wages by

:39:34.:39:38.

increasing the national living wage, by changing the taper on universal

:39:39.:39:45.

credit. But nobody is denying, and the Chancellor didn't deny in his

:39:46.:39:50.

Autumn Statement, the challenging circumstances that we face. He

:39:51.:39:54.

didn't deny the Prime minister's statement that more needs to be done

:39:55.:39:58.

to support those very people, people who are just getting by. And that

:39:59.:40:03.

will be very much the focus of her government and its policies. The

:40:04.:40:07.

Resolution Foundation estimates all the budget measures, including the

:40:08.:40:11.

ones you mentioned, only take away 7% of the cuts that people on

:40:12.:40:15.

universal credit face because of the freezing of benefits. How is that

:40:16.:40:22.

helping ordinary people? Well, it is a change to the taper, so that it

:40:23.:40:28.

is, I think, fairer. It means that the incentive and benefit of being

:40:29.:40:34.

in work is clear, which is what universal credit is all about.

:40:35.:40:39.

That's what the focus of Theresa May's government is going to be on,

:40:40.:40:43.

it's going to be on helping people who are just getting by. That's why

:40:44.:40:49.

the budget sought to take a greater proportion of income tax from those

:40:50.:40:53.

on the highest earnings, closing down even more tax avoidance, tax

:40:54.:40:58.

evasion schemes, so that there was a greater fairness in the system. Of

:40:59.:41:02.

course, what the Chancellor also made absolutely clear is that there

:41:03.:41:07.

would be no changes to existing benefit proposals that have been

:41:08.:41:10.

previously announced, there will be no further cuts to benefits, which

:41:11.:41:15.

is something that should be welcomed. You've been talking in an

:41:16.:41:21.

interview in the Sunday Times today about how more powers could come to

:41:22.:41:24.

the Scottish Parliament as a result of Brexit. Can you give us any

:41:25.:41:29.

specific examples of what you have in mind? What I think, Gordon,

:41:30.:41:37.

hasn't been fully understood and is only just beginning to be debated,

:41:38.:41:42.

which is what I want to encourage, is that by leaving the EU, that will

:41:43.:41:47.

have a fundamental change and the devolved settlement here in Scotland

:41:48.:41:52.

and, indeed, elsewhere in the United Kingdom because these settlements

:41:53.:41:55.

were predicated on the basis that the UK was in the EU. Therefore,

:41:56.:42:00.

there are a number of powers and responsibilities which are currently

:42:01.:42:03.

exercised by the EU which will have to return to the UK or to Scotland

:42:04.:42:10.

and the other devolved nations. Can you give us any specific examples

:42:11.:42:16.

relating to Scotland? What I want to do is encourage debate, and

:42:17.:42:19.

discussion, on these issues because that is how we've always proceeded

:42:20.:42:24.

in relation to powers in the Scottish Parliament. Self evidently,

:42:25.:42:28.

agriculture and fisheries are two of the issues currently exercised at

:42:29.:42:35.

European level. Both the NFU in Scotland and the Scottish fishermen

:42:36.:42:38.

's Federation are coming forward with their views as to how these

:42:39.:42:42.

sorts of powers should be taken forward, leaving the EU, but there

:42:43.:42:47.

will be significant powers in the area of the environment, and there

:42:48.:42:50.

will be powers in relation to the criminal justice system as well. And

:42:51.:42:57.

we are at an early stage because we don't know the shape of the final

:42:58.:43:03.

deal. There are areas of other important is that might be included.

:43:04.:43:08.

I think that we need to have a debate and discussion in Scotland on

:43:09.:43:12.

that. We have focused, rightly, in some regards to the single market

:43:13.:43:18.

migration, but one of the most significant differences we could

:43:19.:43:22.

feel in Scotland, post-Brexit, is in the changes to the devolution

:43:23.:43:29.

settlement. On this programme last June, shortly after the referendum,

:43:30.:43:34.

we were talking about another independence referendum, and you

:43:35.:43:37.

made it quite clear you think they should not be won, and I'm sure that

:43:38.:43:40.

is still your position. However, you also said that should the Scottish

:43:41.:43:44.

government decide to hold one, the British government shouldn't stop

:43:45.:43:48.

them doing it. I'll quote you. The people of Scotland ultimately

:43:49.:43:53.

determined they want to have another referendum, there will be one. Is

:43:54.:43:59.

that still your position? The position that I have set out and the

:44:00.:44:03.

Prime Minister has I think is absolutely consistent with that. Of

:44:04.:44:06.

course, there could be another referendum, that is a process issue.

:44:07.:44:16.

The British government should not stop it? Of course they shouldn't.

:44:17.:44:21.

We have had an independence referendum. I believe we should

:44:22.:44:25.

abide by the Edinburgh agreement and respect the outcome of that

:44:26.:44:29.

referendum. The Scottish government's own consultation paper

:44:30.:44:36.

on a referendum recognises that referendum would require an

:44:37.:44:38.

agreement of the UK Government and would require legislation in the

:44:39.:44:42.

Westminster Parliament. So, they know what the processes. I'm asking

:44:43.:44:49.

you... They want to pursue the issue of having another independence

:44:50.:44:56.

referendum, so another referendum -- independence referendum could only

:44:57.:44:58.

proceed with the agreement of both governments but at the moment the

:44:59.:45:02.

Scottish government haven't put that proposition on the table and I think

:45:03.:45:05.

the argument to continue to be that they be another independence

:45:06.:45:10.

referendum. The overwhelming number of people in Scotland don't want

:45:11.:45:14.

there to be a referendum. Fine, fine, but let me give you another

:45:15.:45:18.

quotation from Ruth Davidson who said on this programme last July,

:45:19.:45:24.

"Constitutionally, the UK Government should not block it. No." Would you

:45:25.:45:32.

agree with that statement? What I say is that, you know, what the SNP

:45:33.:45:36.

Scottish government ought to do is they want to get into a process row

:45:37.:45:44.

about... You've said that... But we want to ask... What they

:45:45.:45:48.

shouldn't... They shouldn't be an independence referendum because the

:45:49.:45:51.

people of Scotland have made their decision and the overwhelming

:45:52.:45:54.

majority of people don't want it. But the process is quite clear if

:45:55.:46:00.

there were to be another independence referendum, and the

:46:01.:46:04.

consultation document acknowledges that that the two governments would

:46:05.:46:07.

have to agree on the basis... You've said that about five times now.

:46:08.:46:15.

Because it is the factual position! Ruth Davidson said constitutionally

:46:16.:46:19.

the UK Government should not block it, no. Would you agree with that

:46:20.:46:28.

statement? Yes or no? What I... My position isn't inconsistent with

:46:29.:46:31.

what Ruth's said. So, you do agree with that? Blocking it isn't the

:46:32.:46:37.

what Ruth's said. So, you do agree same as reaching an agreement on it.

:46:38.:46:42.

What we know that is in relation to having an independence referendum,

:46:43.:46:45.

that requires agreement between the two governments. That was the case

:46:46.:46:51.

in relation to the previous referendum, we had the Edinburgh

:46:52.:46:52.

agreement... You've said there is referendum, we had the Edinburgh

:46:53.:46:58.

now about six times. We have set out...! I'm afraid, Gordon, it is

:46:59.:47:02.

because it is the factual position! We know the process the having

:47:03.:47:07.

another referendum. If the Scottish government have a proposal to bring

:47:08.:47:09.

forward another referendum, then they come for to the UK Government

:47:10.:47:14.

and we look to reach agreement on that basis. There isn't such a

:47:15.:47:17.

proposal and I want to continue to argue that they shouldn't be such a

:47:18.:47:19.

proposal because the people of argue that they shouldn't be such a

:47:20.:47:23.

Scotland don't want another independence referendum. I redo the

:47:24.:47:28.

credit in. Constitutionally, the UK Government shouldn't block it, no.

:47:29.:47:33.

All I'm inviting you to say is I agree with that statement. I don't

:47:34.:47:42.

disagree with the statement. I don't think the UK Government would block

:47:43.:47:47.

it. What the UK Government would do... OK, all right... Is seek to

:47:48.:47:50.

reach agreement about the referendum, which is what I have

:47:51.:47:54.

said on the last six or seven occasions. You are, in a sense,

:47:55.:48:00.

Scotland's representative in the Cabinet. You favoured remaining in

:48:01.:48:05.

the EU. And, as you know, most people in Scotland voted to remain

:48:06.:48:06.

in the EU. Are you arguing in the people in Scotland voted to remain

:48:07.:48:12.

Cabinet for staying in the single market? Firstly, the referendum that

:48:13.:48:20.

we had in relation to the EU, Gordon, was whether the UK stayed in

:48:21.:48:26.

the EU. That is what people in Scotland voted on, for the United

:48:27.:48:30.

Kingdom to stay in the EU. I voted that way. I didn't do it on the

:48:31.:48:34.

basis that if I didn't get my own way, Scotland would be dragged out

:48:35.:48:39.

of the United Kingdom and that the whole independence debate would be

:48:40.:48:43.

started up again. That is very regrettable. That isn't what I asked

:48:44.:48:45.

you. Of course, what I'm arguing for regrettable. That isn't what I asked

:48:46.:48:50.

is that Scotland gets the best possible access to the single

:48:51.:48:54.

market. That is access I'd want to see for the whole of the UK. Sorry,

:48:55.:49:00.

I'm not asking you... I don't think we will need to see a separate

:49:01.:49:05.

Scottish deal about access to the single market because I want to see

:49:06.:49:09.

a United Kingdom deal that gives the best possible access to that single

:49:10.:49:13.

market. Yes, I didn't ask you whether they should be a separate

:49:14.:49:17.

Scotland deal, I asked you as whether Scotland's representative in

:49:18.:49:21.

the Cabinet you are arguing for Britain to stay in the single

:49:22.:49:25.

market. I'm arguing for Britain to get the best possible access to that

:49:26.:49:29.

single market. As I've said, the Prime Minister and others have said,

:49:30.:49:34.

the UK is going to get a unique deal in terms of the arrangements that we

:49:35.:49:41.

reach with the EU, in relation to how our access to the market is

:49:42.:49:46.

structured. Our overriding priority is to get the best possible access

:49:47.:49:51.

without barriers and tariffs, which is what we are seeking to achieve

:49:52.:49:55.

because that is in the best interest of Britain and Scotland. There is an

:49:56.:49:58.

because that is in the best interest idea of having a transition period

:49:59.:50:02.

where we stay in the single market of 5-10 years. And that gives both

:50:03.:50:06.

David Davis Liam Fox time to do their trade deals. And it would also

:50:07.:50:11.

give a proper chance to negotiate something with the EU. Is that a

:50:12.:50:13.

good idea? I think we should look to ensure

:50:14.:50:22.

that we can complete the deal with the timescale, of course there are

:50:23.:50:27.

other eventualities and nothing has been ruled out. Nothing has been

:50:28.:50:32.

ruled in in that regard. I genuinely believe that other European

:50:33.:50:37.

countries will want to see is speedy resolution to this issue, they will

:50:38.:50:42.

want to see a definitive arrangement with the United Kingdom, and

:50:43.:50:46.

therefore I think that we will be able to achieve the objective of a

:50:47.:50:51.

deal within the two years of the triggering of article 50.

:50:52.:50:56.

David Mundell, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

:50:57.:50:57.

Later this week Nicola Sturgeon will become the first serving head

:50:58.:51:00.

of a government to address the upper house of the Irish Parliament.

:51:01.:51:03.

She'll also take the opportunity to hold talks with politicians

:51:04.:51:05.

and business leaders and is expected to remind them of the

:51:06.:51:08.

"long tradition of co-operation" between Scotland and Ireland.

:51:09.:51:10.

Glenn Cooksley reports on the First Minister's continuing

:51:11.:51:12.

efforts to strengthen Scotland's ties with the EU

:51:13.:51:14.

Two days ago, Nicola Sturgeon was in Cardiff for the first meeting of the

:51:15.:51:27.

British, Irish Council since it convened in July to discuss the

:51:28.:51:31.

outcome of the UK's referendum on EU membership. She outlined her latest

:51:32.:51:35.

thinking on the way ahead for Scotland.

:51:36.:51:40.

There should be an approach that is about staying inside the single

:51:41.:51:43.

market because I think that is the best outcome, or other the least

:51:44.:51:48.

worst outcome, for businesses and a whole range of other interest in the

:51:49.:51:53.

UK and every single nation of the UK.

:51:54.:51:58.

This week she's in Dublin, and as well as addressing the upper house

:51:59.:52:00.

and talking to Irish business people, she is expected to meet the

:52:01.:52:04.

Irish president Michael Higdon 's, who was welcome to Scotland in June.

:52:05.:52:08.

Although it is believed there will be no direct over Brexit, the first

:52:09.:52:13.

list has said she's looking forward to using the Dublin visit to speak

:52:14.:52:14.

about her plans for Scotland but to using the Dublin visit to speak

:52:15.:52:20.

interest in the EU. It will be the latest in a long line of diplomacy

:52:21.:52:23.

by the Scottish Government of further its single market cause. The

:52:24.:52:27.

UK free trade Association and the European economic area, which

:52:28.:52:31.

includes lift and sewing, Iceland and Norway, are denied as potential

:52:32.:52:37.

routes. In addition, there are attempts to strengthen already

:52:38.:52:40.

established ties, including talks with ambassadors, dialogue with

:52:41.:52:45.

politicians abroad, and the formation of the standing Council in

:52:46.:52:48.

Europe, which is advising the Scottish Government in the aftermath

:52:49.:52:53.

of the Brexit vote. Dublin has been seen as the latest opportunity for

:52:54.:52:57.

the First Minister to outline her single market vision for Scotland.

:52:58.:52:59.

Well, I'm joined now by The Scottish Government's Cabinet Secretary

:53:00.:53:01.

This diplomatic offensive to stay in the single market, with a separate

:53:02.:53:14.

Scottish deal, so far you have managed to get the Spanish covenant

:53:15.:53:21.

to say, there is no way Scotland can have a separate deal. The First

:53:22.:53:24.

Minister of Wales has said Scotland cannot have a separate deal, and the

:53:25.:53:31.

trade Mr of Norway has said Scotland cannot join separate from the rest

:53:32.:53:35.

of the UK. If this is a diplomatic success, I would hate to think what

:53:36.:53:37.

of the UK. If this is a diplomatic a failure might look like.

:53:38.:53:42.

You are being offensive in terms of what we are trying to do here.

:53:43.:53:45.

Because you're putting words in the modes of others, you are not

:53:46.:53:49.

understanding... You are not understanding the process. Nobody is

:53:50.:53:55.

negotiating with anybody, because article 50 has not been triggered by

:53:56.:53:58.

the UK Government, and because the UK Government has not set out its

:53:59.:54:02.

own position, other countries are not negotiating. We are expanding

:54:03.:54:09.

Saughton's position. We are not negotiating, we are not saying to

:54:10.:54:11.

the Spanish, this is our position. What we are doing is talking to

:54:12.:54:17.

everybody who agrees with us, and had the BBC covered, has the BBC

:54:18.:54:23.

been at Cardiff, you would have heard what Carwyn Jones said. He was

:54:24.:54:28.

agreeing with Nicola Sturgeon on the importance of the single market but

:54:29.:54:34.

making sure that we have access and participation in the single market,

:54:35.:54:38.

including freedom of movement. That is where we are. That is his

:54:39.:54:45.

position, but what he also said, would you be bubbly don't

:54:46.:54:48.

understand, is that we have to be aware of the positions of the

:54:49.:54:51.

different parts of the United Kingdom. He is interested in what we

:54:52.:54:58.

are developing. That is the current position and it is important to

:54:59.:55:01.

understand that. Clearly I don't understand it. Can

:55:02.:55:06.

you give me some counterexamples to the offensive examples I gave? Can

:55:07.:55:10.

you tell me any politicians in Europe who have said, we think the

:55:11.:55:13.

Scottish Government should have a separate deal from the UK in Europe?

:55:14.:55:17.

Nobody is talking about any deals because the UK has not, as the

:55:18.:55:24.

member state... Can you caught me anyone who has

:55:25.:55:26.

said they can? The pony is -- diplomacy is

:55:27.:55:36.

something you do. We have spoken to ministers in Paris, the Italian

:55:37.:55:42.

government, we have been in Austria, Slovakia, the Czech Republic. People

:55:43.:55:45.

are very sympathetic and understanding of the position

:55:46.:55:49.

Scotland is in, six to 2% of this country voted to remain -- 62%. We

:55:50.:55:57.

want to have the best possible proposition for the UK as a whole,

:55:58.:56:04.

that is our position. We want to see the strongest position for the UK.

:56:05.:56:09.

If they were to visit that back -- put a position forward including

:56:10.:56:15.

freedom of movement, vital to our economic interest, that is what

:56:16.:56:17.

we're trying to the UK Government to do.

:56:18.:56:22.

You can quote me a single person in Europe who has come out and said

:56:23.:56:27.

that is a good idea. -- cannot. If you understood where the EU are,

:56:28.:56:35.

they are operating as a block, they are not saying anything about

:56:36.:56:38.

Scotland. But neither are they saying anything about the UK,

:56:39.:56:42.

because the UK has not set out its position.

:56:43.:56:46.

Except some of them are seeing things about a special deal for

:56:47.:56:49.

Scotland. We have not set out a special deal

:56:50.:56:53.

for Scotland, so how can we comment on something that has not been set

:56:54.:56:57.

out. In this incredibly complex process,

:56:58.:57:01.

what are you hoping to get in Ireland this week?

:57:02.:57:04.

We're building on the continuing relationship we have that we have

:57:05.:57:09.

been building up over a number of years. We have had 12 ministerial

:57:10.:57:13.

visits in Ireland and Scotland over the past year, a lot of business and

:57:14.:57:17.

government interest, and we have spoken to the Irish government in

:57:18.:57:20.

relation to our interest. What did they say?

:57:21.:57:28.

I have also met... What would you like to say?

:57:29.:57:34.

That's the UK Government as a whole should get the best in terms of

:57:35.:57:37.

That's the UK Government as a whole participation in the single market,

:57:38.:57:39.

that protects our economic interest. If that is not possible, to be

:57:40.:57:45.

open-minded to consider a situation that there could be a differentiated

:57:46.:57:49.

deal with in the United Kingdom in terms of what they put forward for

:57:50.:57:53.

article 50. You do want them to say they are

:57:54.:57:57.

sympathetic to that? Remember, the EU 27, with most of

:57:58.:58:04.

the government representatives, ministers and ambassadors of all of

:58:05.:58:10.

the EU 27, they are not prepared to make any statement about any deal,

:58:11.:58:16.

either for the United Kingdom or for Scotland, until Article 50 has been

:58:17.:58:22.

triggered. That is the basic ABC as to what has been happening as part

:58:23.:58:25.

of the process. Your massive unprecedented

:58:26.:58:29.

consultation with the people of Scotland, that comes to an end in a

:58:30.:58:34.

few weeks' time, doesn't it? Tell us what some of the results are.

:58:35.:58:40.

I don't know, I am not counting or allocating looking at the results.

:58:41.:58:43.

But my experience is a lot of interest from people that voted no

:58:44.:58:48.

for Scottish independence but voted to remain in the EU. Very

:58:49.:58:53.

disenchanted with the fact that against their will very likely to be

:58:54.:58:57.

taken out of the EU. A lot of people are rethinking their position.

:58:58.:59:04.

But you don't know the final results?

:59:05.:59:08.

I don't know the final results. When will they be published?

:59:09.:59:14.

It is a listening in the party exercise. I am not part of the

:59:15.:59:19.

consultation process. I am expecting to have the results of what comes

:59:20.:59:25.

forward... There have been suggestions it will

:59:26.:59:28.

not be published. I am not part of the party operation

:59:29.:59:34.

doing that. There has been a lot of campaigning, we have had so many

:59:35.:59:36.

elections and referendums over the last five years.

:59:37.:59:40.

What is the point of view listening if you don't tell the public what

:59:41.:59:44.

you hear? I have spent my time talking to the

:59:45.:59:46.

different governments and nations and ambassadors. I am looking

:59:47.:59:51.

forward to hearing what the results are, but I am not sure what point

:59:52.:59:56.

that will be. What will be interesting is to hear the

:59:57.:59:59.

priorities people have, whether it is the economy, or in terms of

:00:00.:00:05.

services, or Social Security, etc. The independence referendum number

:00:06.:00:11.

two, it is your position still that you will not have another one until

:00:12.:00:14.

the polls show for a substantial period of time that you will win it?

:00:15.:00:21.

The first one was quite clear, there had to be some material change, but

:00:22.:00:24.

also distinct support for independence. We are quite aware

:00:25.:00:29.

that in this very fluctuating period of time, as we know from the EU

:00:30.:00:32.

referendum, and a lack of certainty for what the UK is setting out, that

:00:33.:00:38.

we need a bit more certainty. You still want the polls to be seen,

:00:39.:00:43.

people want this? We want to persuade the UK as a

:00:44.:00:47.

whole, in relation to the... But you still want the polls?

:00:48.:00:54.

I want Scotland to be independent. But the polls are showing that at

:00:55.:00:57.

the moment. Yet you're still going around threatening that saying,

:00:58.:01:04.

promising, you will have a second referendum if you don't get your way

:01:05.:01:08.

in the European Union. But if the polls are still where they are now

:01:09.:01:11.

and you don't get your way in the European Union, the two things that

:01:12.:01:14.

you said, the material change plus support in the polls, both of them

:01:15.:01:18.

contradict each other. Not necessarily. The important thing

:01:19.:01:23.

is to persuade people not to threaten them. That is the point

:01:24.:01:27.

where we have got to make sure we're in a period of listening...

:01:28.:01:31.

Rouble not have an independence referendum even if you get your way

:01:32.:01:35.

in the European Union -- you will not.

:01:36.:01:40.

We want to make sure that we have the options to deliver the best deal

:01:41.:01:45.

for Scotland, and that is why we are consulting on an independence

:01:46.:01:48.

referendum. You will not hold that unless the

:01:49.:01:52.

polls are going your way. We're a long way from considering

:01:53.:01:57.

where we will be. What I am saying is that the two

:01:58.:02:01.

things contradict each other, and you need both of them, don't you?

:02:02.:02:06.

People should read the manifesto, I strongly believe that Scotland would

:02:07.:02:10.

prosper best as an independent nation.

:02:11.:02:13.

But that is not the question I am asking.

:02:14.:02:18.

The period of time we are in is very much fluctuating. People want

:02:19.:02:20.

certainty, the UK is not providing that. We do not know what the

:02:21.:02:24.

prospects for Scotland will be, whether we will be in the single

:02:25.:02:26.

market. You still won't propose to go your

:02:27.:02:34.

way, before the referendum? We were elected on a manifesto on

:02:35.:02:39.

the point of view. In the manifesto is said only if the

:02:40.:02:46.

polls go your way? You had a discussion with David

:02:47.:02:49.

Mundell about the context and the content of the proposition. Europe

:02:50.:02:54.

will be completely different in two years' time. We are living in a

:02:55.:03:00.

period of uncertainty, but we want to set out some certainty and we are

:03:01.:03:03.

trying to do that in the best we possibly, possibly internationally

:03:04.:03:08.

and in the terms of Scotland. Thank you.

:03:09.:03:10.

This week's Autumn Statement was, well, a little flat

:03:11.:03:12.

But one which was by and large welcomed was the proposal

:03:13.:03:16.

The UK government's now discussing schemes like this for each

:03:17.:03:20.

But what does it mean for these areas?

:03:21.:03:23.

If you're into urban regeneration, economic development and all that

:03:24.:03:48.

kind of stuff, then the big buzzword right now is city deal. Essentially

:03:49.:03:52.

it provides public cash to help get local project off the ground, to

:03:53.:03:57.

create jobs. Some parts of Scotland already have city deals, and those

:03:58.:04:01.

that don't have them are trying very hard to get them. This week,

:04:02.:04:04.

Stirling learned it was going to get a city deal from the Chancellor, but

:04:05.:04:10.

how will it work and will it do any good?

:04:11.:04:19.

One of the key projects that the city deal aims to deliver is a new

:04:20.:04:23.

digital district which is going to be based right here in the old

:04:24.:04:29.

headquarters Stirling Council. Local businesses hugely welcome that, they

:04:30.:04:32.

say that is exactly the kind of thing that is needed to grow the

:04:33.:04:35.

economy. This normal looking industrial Park on the edge of

:04:36.:04:40.

sterling is home to businesses of the future. The ploy is of the

:04:41.:04:46.

successful company do not spend all day playing games -- the employees.

:04:47.:04:52.

Most of the time they designed mobile phone apps for a wide range

:04:53.:04:57.

of clients across the UK and beyond. They say the Stirling city deal is a

:04:58.:05:01.

huge opportunity. Having a digital district in the

:05:02.:05:06.

centre will be really impactful. It will start to attract businesses

:05:07.:05:10.

similar to ourselves, technology businesses, into sterling, which

:05:11.:05:14.

will start to allow people to stay in sterling rather than having to

:05:15.:05:22.

leave, Aust -- they will be able to stay in the area. This is going to

:05:23.:05:25.

be one great big reason to come here.

:05:26.:05:31.

One of the key figures behind the bid said winning a city deal was

:05:32.:05:33.

crucial for the economy, and would bid said winning a city deal was

:05:34.:05:38.

provide something which nobody else does.

:05:39.:05:42.

If we didn't see the investment coming into the EU, I think there

:05:43.:05:47.

was a concern that economic growth might go into decline. That is not

:05:48.:05:53.

great for sterling. Neither is it great for the Scottish economy or

:05:54.:05:59.

the UK economy. I don't necessarily see that Stirling competence against

:06:00.:06:04.

the likes of Glasgow, Edinburgh or Aberdeen, but it does have a niche

:06:05.:06:09.

part in terms of the broader economic growth we are all looking

:06:10.:06:13.

for. In other parts of Scotland, city

:06:14.:06:17.

deals have helped resurrect older projects, like the Glasgow airport

:06:18.:06:20.

rail link, scrapped seven years ago on cost grounds. Fresh plans have

:06:21.:06:26.

been unveiled thanks to Glasgow's billion pound city deal backed by

:06:27.:06:30.

the UK and Scottish governments. Back in Stirling, proposals are also

:06:31.:06:37.

underway to boost leisure and tourism and create a new Civic

:06:38.:06:40.

Quarter. The leader of the local council says now it is time to get

:06:41.:06:45.

on with it. Everyone wants the headline, this is

:06:46.:06:48.

now about how do we deliver on the ground? We spent 18 months building

:06:49.:06:53.

our business cases so that we would be ready to go, and I think it's

:06:54.:06:58.

because Stirling has done so much groundwork, and we are just ready to

:06:59.:07:01.

take those projects forward and make a change in people's lives, it is

:07:02.:07:05.

what it is all about. As more parts of Scotland bid for

:07:06.:07:16.

and win city deals, like Stirling, one concern as they become less

:07:17.:07:20.

about helping those most in need. Then there are areas that might be

:07:21.:07:23.

left out altogether because they can't get one. But, for now, city

:07:24.:07:31.

deals are here to stay, it seems. Let's look back at the events of the

:07:32.:07:35.

past we can see what's coming up in the Week Ahead.

:07:36.:07:38.

With me now is Jenni Davidson of Holyrood Magazine and political

:07:39.:07:41.

commentator at the Sunday Herald, Iain Macwhirter.

:07:42.:07:45.

Let's start with this national... Survey. Competition would be more

:07:46.:07:58.

fun! This was built up to such an extent at the beginning of this

:07:59.:08:03.

year. It was. Hasn't been much talk about it sins. I don't think I heard

:08:04.:08:11.

anything about it. It seems to have fallen flat. I'd almost forgotten

:08:12.:08:19.

about it, it finishes in a few days' time, and there have been no

:08:20.:08:25.

balloons or celebrating. Some suggestions it might not even be

:08:26.:08:29.

public. My understanding is it was for internal use, research the SNP

:08:30.:08:34.

would use themselves, and isn't going to be published afterwards. I

:08:35.:08:39.

suppose it depends what the results are, whether or not they want to

:08:40.:08:42.

publish it, they might want to keep it quiet if they don't like the

:08:43.:08:46.

results. The original idea, Iain, is this would be a process of

:08:47.:08:51.

reformulating the proposal for independence and they would address

:08:52.:08:55.

things like the currency, but there doesn't seem to be any sign of that.

:08:56.:09:03.

It was a result of a late-night brainstorm, a special adviser to

:09:04.:09:08.

Nicola Sturgeon. He denies that, but it has gone down in history as being

:09:09.:09:13.

an improvisation, if you like, that was introduced at the last minute to

:09:14.:09:17.

appeared to give something for all the SNP troops to do when they're

:09:18.:09:22.

not campaigning for a second independence referendum. So, it has

:09:23.:09:27.

performed that function. Clearly, it was never intended to be made public

:09:28.:09:32.

but everybody will be asking, obviously, after Friday, just what

:09:33.:09:35.

were the results, and if you're considering the results --

:09:36.:09:40.

concealing the results, they weren't very good, obviously. What about the

:09:41.:09:46.

policies? It is a sensible thing to do to have an inquiry into these key

:09:47.:09:53.

issues which were unresolved by the independence referendum campaign in

:09:54.:09:57.

2014, most notably things like currency, issues about border and

:09:58.:10:00.

relations with Europe. It makes sense. It's no secret that at a time

:10:01.:10:06.

like this, after having two referendums in two years and two

:10:07.:10:11.

Parliamentary elections, it's been an uphill struggle getting people to

:10:12.:10:16.

contemplate the prospect of another referendum under these

:10:17.:10:19.

circumstances. People are fed up with breaks and Trump. Repatriating

:10:20.:10:31.

powers to Scotland, that is... Is a an exaggeration? It is complex. I

:10:32.:10:35.

think the assumption would have been one of the advantages of Brexit is

:10:36.:10:38.

we will get all these powers back from Europe. It isn't necessarily

:10:39.:10:44.

the case that we, as in Scotland, will get them. They will get to the

:10:45.:10:46.

UK Government. There's no obvious will get them. They will get to the

:10:47.:10:54.

repatriation of powers over the environment, agriculture and.

:10:55.:10:59.

Although that is a devolved area. There is lots of international

:11:00.:11:03.

agreement that is involved in that that would be difficult to

:11:04.:11:07.

repatriate without giving the Scottish Parliament and government

:11:08.:11:10.

more powers to do international deals, so it'll be a big question.

:11:11.:11:14.

There are certain things that'll happen automatically. For example,

:11:15.:11:19.

agriculture's devolved so presumably whatever replaces... Whatever

:11:20.:11:24.

replaces the Common Agricultural Policy will be administered in

:11:25.:11:27.

Scotland, but possibly invented in Scotland as a different system using

:11:28.:11:31.

the block grant the Scottish government has, they could invent a

:11:32.:11:35.

different system from England, if they wanted to. It is up in the air

:11:36.:11:39.

and David Mundell was assuming there some kind of logical progression

:11:40.:11:42.

here that because Scotland has powers over these at the moment,

:11:43.:11:46.

when they are repatriated from the ultimate powers from Brussels, they

:11:47.:11:50.

will naturally go to Holyrood. There is no automaticity about that at

:11:51.:11:57.

all. That will have to be decided in this long process of reformulating

:11:58.:12:00.

what the Scottish Parliament's powers are because remember the

:12:01.:12:04.

European communities act is written into the Scotland Act. All Scottish

:12:05.:12:12.

legislation is written into that. It isn't automatic. It assumed things

:12:13.:12:18.

like agriculture and fisheries will devolved to the Scottish Parliament.

:12:19.:12:21.

What is the key question here is what happens to the funding of those

:12:22.:12:25.

policies. I don't think Westminster's going to say, OK,

:12:26.:12:31.

because 40% of the money that has been going into agriculture

:12:32.:12:34.

subsidies. I don't think Westminster is necessarily going to say, OK, you

:12:35.:12:39.

can handle all that revenue stream entirely on your own in future and

:12:40.:12:44.

decide what it is. That's why a lot of the amenities are getting anxious

:12:45.:12:50.

about this. They would drop a British agricultural policy which

:12:51.:12:54.

would not apply in Scotland and through the Barnett formula... That

:12:55.:12:59.

is what the farmers are worried about. Scotland gets 40% of the

:13:00.:13:05.

agricultural subsidies that come to the UK, they go to Scotland. Under

:13:06.:13:11.

the Barnett formula, that would be 8% - 9%, which is why farmers are

:13:12.:13:18.

worried. Briefly, Jenni, diplomatic offensive... I was being offensive

:13:19.:13:22.

by pointing that out! What is your impression of it? My impression is

:13:23.:13:27.

that is going to be difficult to make a case for Scotland having... A

:13:28.:13:34.

different set of international arrangements to be in the single

:13:35.:13:38.

market if the rest of the UK is not. That is clear from what Spain is

:13:39.:13:44.

saying. It would be difficult. We will have to leave it there, thank

:13:45.:13:46.

you very much. I'll be back at the

:13:47.:13:48.

same time next week.

:13:49.:13:52.

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