11/12/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


11/12/2016

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, and debate. Former London mayor Ken Livingstone and former shadow chancellor Chris Leslie discuss Labour's fortunes.


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Transcript


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:38.:00:41.

A row has broken out between Number Ten and former

:00:42.:00:45.

Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan over Brexit and, believe it or not,

:00:46.:00:48.

the price of Theresa May's leather trousers.

:00:49.:00:52.

I feel as though I'm one of the people that

:00:53.:00:54.

If you do that, you are likely to attract attention,

:00:55.:00:58.

It's not just Nicky Morgan making life difficult

:00:59.:01:09.

for the Prime Minister - we'll be taking a look at the rest

:01:10.:01:13.

Fully paid-up rebel Ken Clarke joins us live.

:01:14.:01:16.

Protestors disrupted a speech by Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,

:01:17.:01:18.

but is his biggest problem Labour's miserable performance

:01:19.:01:20.

Corbynite Ken Livingstone and Corbyn critic Chris Leslie

:01:21.:01:23.

And on Sunday Politics Scotland, John Swinney calls for an SFA

:01:24.:01:28.

inquiry into historic child abuse, and assures parents they won't lose

:01:29.:01:33.

think of it as an early Christmas present from us.

:01:34.:01:53.

We guarantee you won't be disappointed.

:01:54.:01:55.

And speaking of guaranteed disappointments - I'm joined

:01:56.:01:57.

by three of the busiest little elves in political journalism.

:01:58.:01:59.

It's Iain Martin, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn.

:02:00.:02:01.

So, we knew relations between Theresa May and some

:02:02.:02:09.

of her backbenchers over Europe weren't exactly a bed of roses.

:02:10.:02:14.

But signs of how fractious things are getting come courtesy of this

:02:15.:02:20.

morning's Mail on Sunday which has the details of a series of texts

:02:21.:02:23.

from one of Mrs May's senior advisers to and concerning

:02:24.:02:26.

the former Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan.

:02:27.:02:31.

Mrs Morgan is one of those arguing for a so-called soft Brexit,

:02:32.:02:36.

and has been pressing the PM to reveal more of her negotiation

:02:37.:02:38.

She's also apparently irked Downing Street by questioning

:02:39.:02:45.

Mrs May's decision to purchase and be photographed in a ?995 pair

:02:46.:02:52.

She said she had "never spent that much money on anything apart

:02:53.:02:57.

Mrs Morgan was due to attend a meeting at Number 10 this week

:02:58.:03:07.

But that invitation seems to be off, after a fairly extraordinary

:03:08.:03:11.

argument by text message with Mrs May's joint chief

:03:12.:03:14.

She texted the MP Alistair Burt, another of those arguing

:03:15.:03:23.

for a so-called soft Brexit, cancelling Nicky Morgan's invitation

:03:24.:03:30.

and telling him to not "bring that woman to Number Ten again".

:03:31.:03:35.

The following day Nicky Morgan texted Fiona Hill, saying

:03:36.:03:37.

"If you don't like something I have said or done, please

:03:38.:03:39.

If you don't want my views in future meetings you need to tell them."

:03:40.:03:53.

Shortly afterwards she received the reply "Well, he just did.

:03:54.:03:58.

And according to the Mail, Mrs Morgan, who you'll see

:03:59.:04:03.

in our film shortly, has now been formally banned

:04:04.:04:05.

So, Tom, much ado about nothing or telling you about the underlying

:04:06.:04:21.

tensions over Brexit? Both, if I am allowed to choose both. It says

:04:22.:04:25.

something about British politics today, that this is the most

:04:26.:04:28.

important thing we can find to talk about, because the Government are

:04:29.:04:32.

not giving us anything to talk about cs especially on Brexit because they

:04:33.:04:35.

don't have a plan as we know. There is is a lot of truth that are being

:04:36.:04:40.

spoken from this row, one is that Mrs May comes into Downing Street

:04:41.:04:45.

with a lot of baggage including spectacular fall outs with Cabinet

:04:46.:04:48.

Ministers in the past. Nicky Morgan being one. We heard about the row

:04:49.:04:56.

over banning children from school. She fell out with Boris Johnson, so,

:04:57.:05:00.

she then enters Number Ten with history. When you are in Number Ten

:05:01.:05:07.

you start, you cannot be controversial and my way but the

:05:08.:05:16.

high way, which is why Fiona Hill kept Theresa May in the Home Office.

:05:17.:05:19.

You need to behave differently in the top job. It is surprising Nicky

:05:20.:05:25.

Morgan hats taken such a robust line. She seemed such a gentle soul

:05:26.:05:31.

as a minister. She did, Brexit has done funny things to people.

:05:32.:05:36.

Everything has been shaken up. It reveals really how paranoid they

:05:37.:05:40.

are, I mean you cannot have a situation really in which the, in

:05:41.:05:46.

which you know, Number Ten has got realise if the Prime Minister's

:05:47.:05:52.

entire stick is her authenticity and incredible connection, which is

:05:53.:05:57.

genuine, with voters outside the Metropolitan bubble, when she

:05:58.:06:01.

chooses to wear ?995 leather trousers you have to anticipate that

:06:02.:06:05.

journalists and MPs are going to take the mickey, that is how life

:06:06.:06:09.

works, but I think they are trying to run Number Ten as they ran the

:06:10.:06:14.

Home Office, and you see that in the rows they have had with Mark Carney

:06:15.:06:17.

and Boris Johnson this week, now you might be able to run one Government

:06:18.:06:23.

department in that control freakish way but not Government will hold

:06:24.:06:27.

together for too long, if it is run in that fashion. By try doing the

:06:28.:06:30.

whole Government like one department. This is just the start,

:06:31.:06:35.

Polly, we are still several months away from triggering Article 50. We,

:06:36.:06:42.

The Tory party is split down the middle, the thing that mattered most

:06:43.:06:46.

to the nation since the last war, it is not frivolous. It may look as if

:06:47.:06:51.

it is about trousers, it is about the most serious thing. What was

:06:52.:06:56.

split down the middle? Aren't the Euro-files and the Eurosceptics used

:06:57.:07:02.

to be the outliers, it is now the Europhiles, it is not a split down

:07:03.:07:07.

the middle. They won't vote against Brexit but they will, I think exert

:07:08.:07:10.

the maximum influence they can, to make sure that it is not a Brexit, a

:07:11.:07:15.

self-harming Brexit, to make sure that the country understand, when it

:07:16.:07:18.

comes to that point, that there may be really hard decision to make, do

:07:19.:07:24.

you want a real economic damage to be done to the country, to your own

:07:25.:07:30.

wallet, in, in exchange for being able to stop free movement or is

:07:31.:07:33.

that trade off in the end going to be just too expensive? We have seen

:07:34.:07:37.

polls suggesting people are beginning to move, and not willing,

:07:38.:07:43.

a poll out now saying people wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any

:07:44.:07:47.

money at all, for the sake of stopping immigration. So if itself

:07:48.:07:51.

comes to that trade off, the people are going to need to be confronted

:07:52.:07:58.

with that choice. The Irony is, I think the Tories are in the most

:07:59.:08:02.

exceptionally strong position, I mean what is happening here is that

:08:03.:08:07.

British politics is being realigned and remade along leave and remain

:08:08.:08:12.

lines, if the Prime Minister's luck hold, the Tories are looking at

:08:13.:08:19.

being somewhere 45, 46, 47% of the vote with an opposition split

:08:20.:08:23.

between a far left Labour Party and depleted Liberal Democrats, that

:08:24.:08:26.

sound like a recipe for something similar to what happened in the

:08:27.:08:32.

1980s. You are seeing extraordinary alliances between left and right.

:08:33.:08:37.

The Scottish referendum rebuilt Scottish politics along the lines of

:08:38.:08:41.

pro independence, anti-independence and now Brexit maybe doing the same.

:08:42.:08:46.

So, rows within the Conservative Party over the price

:08:47.:08:48.

of trousers might be new, but over Europe, not so much.

:08:49.:08:51.

And this week's Commons vote on when the Government will fire

:08:52.:08:54.

the starting gun on Brexit, and what it will say

:08:55.:08:56.

about its plans before it does so, confirmed that instead

:08:57.:08:58.

of the eurosceptics being the outsiders,

:08:59.:09:00.

it's now the Remainers who are leading the resistance.

:09:01.:09:02.

While the Prime Minister was schmoozing in the gold-plated

:09:03.:09:12.

Gulf this week, back home the Commons was voting

:09:13.:09:14.

on a Labour motion forcing her to publish a plan for Brexit.

:09:15.:09:17.

Through some parliamentary jiggery-pokery, the Government

:09:18.:09:19.

basically got its way, but it did provide a platform

:09:20.:09:21.

for some mischiefmaking by Tory MPs who voted to remain,

:09:22.:09:26.

We are getting somewhat tired, are we not, of this constant level

:09:27.:09:35.

of abuse, this constant criticism that we are somehow Remoaners

:09:36.:09:38.

that want to thwart the will of the people,

:09:39.:09:41.

go back on it and that we don't accept the result.

:09:42.:09:46.

I don't like the result, and yes, I do believe the people

:09:47.:09:51.

It's not good enough that these things are dragged

:09:52.:09:54.

out of the Government by opposition day motions.

:09:55.:09:56.

I'm pleased that it's happened but I wish the Government was taking

:09:57.:09:59.

Is Nicky Morgan really listening to her constituents

:10:00.:10:04.

I think I'm one of the people who stuck their head

:10:05.:10:12.

above the parapet so if you do that you're likely to attract attention,

:10:13.:10:15.

you're likely to attract abuse, but also actually levels of support.

:10:16.:10:17.

I'm having e-mails from around the country with people saying thank

:10:18.:10:20.

you for what you are doing, party members around

:10:21.:10:22.

the country saying thank you for what you are doing

:10:23.:10:25.

and saying, and I and others will continue to do that.

:10:26.:10:29.

I just think, as a backbench Member of Parliament,

:10:30.:10:31.

you've got to be there, particularly when we have a weak

:10:32.:10:33.

opposition, to ask the question that government needs to be scrutinised

:10:34.:10:36.

on before we embark on such a huge issue.

:10:37.:10:43.

Nobody comes into politics to become a thorn in their party leader's

:10:44.:10:46.

side, but at the end of the day it's such a massive issue that

:10:47.:10:50.

if you don't stand up for what you believe in,

:10:51.:10:52.

I'm not sure what the point is of going into politics.

:10:53.:10:58.

That puts her on a collision course with activists in her local

:10:59.:11:01.

party like Adam Stairs, a committed leader who accuses

:11:02.:11:03.

Nicky has promised me and the rest of our Conservative association

:11:04.:11:08.

she will be voting for Article 50 and she will support

:11:09.:11:11.

the Prime Minister's timetable, and we have just got to trust that

:11:12.:11:14.

and hope that goes ahead, but there's a lot of people

:11:15.:11:16.

who think she's taking sideswipes at the Government

:11:17.:11:18.

The Conservatives are very popular, she wants to be a Conservative MP

:11:19.:11:22.

and we want to see a Conservative government being

:11:23.:11:24.

I have no idea what she's playing at, I think she just needs to get

:11:25.:11:32.

on with her job as an MP, which she does very well,

:11:33.:11:35.

Now let's head to Anna Soubry's constituency nearby to see

:11:36.:11:39.

how her stance is going down with the voters.

:11:40.:11:41.

If Anna Soubry doesn't fully back Brexit, what does

:11:42.:11:43.

Well, she's going to have a little bit of a problem because the voters,

:11:44.:11:49.

especially in this area, they voted to come out of the EU

:11:50.:11:51.

so she will definitely have a little bit of a problem.

:11:52.:11:54.

She should stick for what she believes in,

:11:55.:11:56.

but I guess from a democratic perspective she does...

:11:57.:11:58.

She has admitted the fact over and over again that she wanted

:11:59.:12:15.

to remain, but her views at the moment, even in her e-mails,

:12:16.:12:18.

depicted the fact she's anti-Brexit still.

:12:19.:12:19.

Theresa May will host her most pro-European MPs at Downing Street

:12:20.:12:24.

this week to discuss the countdown to Brexit.

:12:25.:12:26.

Although now we know not everyone is invited.

:12:27.:12:35.

And the MP leading the resistance in the Commons on Wednesday

:12:36.:12:41.

was Ken Clarke, he was the only Conservative MP who voted

:12:42.:12:43.

against the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end

:12:44.:12:46.

of March and he joins us now from Nottingham.

:12:47.:12:50.

Welcome back to the programme Ken Clarke. Now, tell me this when David

:12:51.:12:54.

Cameron resigned after losing the referendum, you had to pick a new

:12:55.:13:00.

leader, which candidate did the Tory Europhiles like you put up to

:13:01.:13:04.

deliver a so-called soft Brexit, or no Brexit at all? Well, I can't

:13:05.:13:11.

speak for the others but I voted for Theresa May, I gave a notorious

:13:12.:13:16.

interview, it wasn't meant to be, I was chatting to Malcolm Rifkind but

:13:17.:13:21.

somebody turned a camera on, I called her a bloody difficult woman

:13:22.:13:25.

which the Tory party probably needs, compared with Margaret Thatcher and

:13:26.:13:28.

said I was going to vote for her, I gave a vote for one of the younger

:13:29.:13:34.

ones first, but I told Teresa I would vote for her, she was the only

:13:35.:13:39.

serious candidate in my view. You voted for somebody you thought was a

:13:40.:13:42.

difficult woman, she is being difficult in ways you don't like,

:13:43.:13:45.

your side of the Tory party, you had your chance to put up somebody more

:13:46.:13:51.

in line with you, instead you shut up, so, why the complaints about it

:13:52.:13:57.

not going in your direction? I am not making complaint, it is not

:13:58.:14:00.

Teresa's fall we are in the dreadful mess, she was on the Remain side,

:14:01.:14:04.

she made a good speech during the campaign on the referendum, setting

:14:05.:14:08.

out the economic case for being in, setting out the security case for

:14:09.:14:11.

being in, which was Home Secretary, she was particularly expert in, it

:14:12.:14:16.

wasn't her fault that not a word it was reported anywhere, in the

:14:17.:14:20.

national media. Now, my views have been the same, I am afraid

:14:21.:14:24.

throughout my adult life, for the 50 years I have been in politics, and

:14:25.:14:29.

my views have been the mainstream policy of the Conservative Party

:14:30.:14:32.

throughout all that time, I don't expect to have a sudden conversion

:14:33.:14:37.

on the 24th June, and I think what I owe to my constituency, and to

:14:38.:14:42.

Parliament, is that I exercise my judgment, I make speeches giving my

:14:43.:14:46.

reasons, I make the best judgment that I can, of what is the national

:14:47.:14:50.

interest. I understand that. I would be a terrible hypocrite if I... Of

:14:51.:14:58.

course that is not what I am asking. How many Conservative MPs do you

:14:59.:15:02.

think you can count on to oppose this so-called hard Brexit? Is it

:15:03.:15:10.

40, 20, 10, 5, 1? I have no idea, because Anna, and Nicky, who you

:15:11.:15:13.

have just seen on the video who are also sticking to their principle,

:15:14.:15:16.

they are only saying what they are been saying ever since they have

:15:17.:15:20.

been in politics, probably may have more idea than me.

:15:21.:15:32.

That is three, how many more? I don't know, we will find out. We are

:15:33.:15:39.

living in a bubble in which the tone of politics is getting nastier and

:15:40.:15:45.

the reporting is getting sillier, so it is all about Theresa May's

:15:46.:15:49.

trousers and whether Boris has made some inappropriate jokes. What we

:15:50.:15:53.

need if we are going to abandon the basis upon which we made ourselves a

:15:54.:15:57.

leading political power in the world for the last 40 years and the basis

:15:58.:16:02.

upon which our economy has prospered because Margaret Thatcher got the

:16:03.:16:05.

others to adopt the single market and we benefited from that more than

:16:06.:16:09.

any other member state, so now we need a serious plan, a strategy.

:16:10.:16:16.

What is our relationship going to be in the modern world? How will our

:16:17.:16:20.

children and grandchildren make the best union they can? We need

:16:21.:16:30.

Parliament's approval of a White Paper and then start years of

:16:31.:16:36.

negotiation. This will run and run. This interview hasn't got time to

:16:37.:16:40.

run and run so let me get another question in. You seem to be quoted

:16:41.:16:43.

in the mail on Sunday this morning as saying if the Prime Minister

:16:44.:16:49.

sides too much with the heart Brexit group, she won't survive, is that

:16:50.:16:54.

your view? Yes because only a minority of the House of Commons

:16:55.:16:58.

think it is frightfully simple and you can just leave. The referendum

:16:59.:17:02.

campaign, the only national media reporting of the issues were

:17:03.:17:07.

completely silly and often quite dishonest arguments on both sides.

:17:08.:17:13.

Let me just check this, explain to me the basis... Know, excuse me, I

:17:14.:17:18.

the Prime Minister won't survive so the Prime Minister won't survive so

:17:19.:17:21.

just explain to our viewers why she won't survive. She will be in a

:17:22.:17:27.

minority she starts adopting the views of John Redwood or Iain Duncan

:17:28.:17:31.

Smith. It's clear majority of the House of Commons doesn't agree with

:17:32.:17:35.

that and it would be pretty catastrophic if that is what we were

:17:36.:17:39.

going to do when we turn up and faced 27 of the nation state, and

:17:40.:17:45.

tell them we are pulling out of the biggest market in the world. How

:17:46.:17:53.

long do you give the Prime Minister then? If you don't think she will

:17:54.:18:00.

survive by going for a heart Brexit? I don't think she will go for a

:18:01.:18:07.

heart Brexit. Really, surrounded by David Davis and Liam Fox? Do you

:18:08.:18:12.

think Liam Fox will determine the policy of the Cabinet? Liam has

:18:13.:18:20.

always been ferociously against the European Union although he served in

:18:21.:18:23.

a government that was pro-European for about two and a half years. Does

:18:24.:18:30.

he not survive either? You're trying to reduce it to my trying to

:18:31.:18:34.

forecast Cabinet reshuffle is which I haven't got a clue whether there

:18:35.:18:38.

will be a Cabinet reshuffle, they may be ministers for the next ten

:18:39.:18:47.

years, I have no idea. Liam and me, but also Liam and the majority of

:18:48.:18:50.

his Cabinet colleagues don't start from the same place. The way forward

:18:51.:18:54.

is for them to produce a White Paper setting out the strategy on which

:18:55.:18:59.

all the Cabinet are agreed. People should stop leaking the Cabinet

:19:00.:19:03.

papers they are getting, they should stop leaking against each other, get

:19:04.:19:11.

down and do the work when they have got the agreed strategy. I'm sorry

:19:12.:19:15.

to interrupt again but we haven't got much time. We saw in our film

:19:16.:19:22.

that a number of constituency members in those areas which are

:19:23.:19:29.

strongly Remain MPs like yourself, in our case in this film it was

:19:30.:19:35.

Nicky Morgan, the constituency party members are unhappy about this.

:19:36.:19:39.

What's your message to them? Don't they deserve an MP that reflects

:19:40.:19:44.

their way of thinking? Leavers are unhappy and Remainers are very

:19:45.:19:51.

grateful. Mine don't go in for abuse... That's probably because

:19:52.:19:59.

you're not on e-mail, Mr Clarke. I get more from Remainers. I'm a great

:20:00.:20:04.

fan of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, I don't agree with them on

:20:05.:20:08.

everything, but the views they are putting forward are the ones they've

:20:09.:20:12.

always held and I think we are doing the Government to favour by saying

:20:13.:20:16.

what it now depends on is your success in agreeing a policy and

:20:17.:20:23.

then explaining to the public what you want to do. I shall be surprised

:20:24.:20:27.

if they manage that by the end of March, I think it is best to get the

:20:28.:20:32.

policy right first but we shall see. Have you been invited then, you say

:20:33.:20:39.

you are being helpful, have you been invited to this meeting in Downing

:20:40.:20:45.

Street on Wednesday for the soft Brexiteers? No, because I haven't

:20:46.:20:49.

been joining any of these groups. It's fair to say most of my

:20:50.:20:53.

colleagues know exactly what my views are. No doubt those that

:20:54.:20:59.

haven't had this kind of discussion with their colleagues before have

:21:00.:21:06.

been invited. I didn't expect to be invited. I get on perfectly well

:21:07.:21:10.

with Theresa May but I haven't been invited, but I don't think there's

:21:11.:21:14.

much significance in that. What do you think of the way Downing Street

:21:15.:21:20.

has handled Nicky Morgan? I feel sorry for women in politics. I'm

:21:21.:21:25.

glad to say men in politics don't have great lead stories about what

:21:26.:21:29.

they are wearing. Apart from my suede shoes, I'm lucky because I'm

:21:30.:21:34.

not a very snappy dresser. It is tedious in these days that we still

:21:35.:21:39.

have a absurd pop newspaper stories about what they are wearing.

:21:40.:21:51.

That commenting on the Prime Minister's trousers, is it really

:21:52.:21:58.

grounds for banishment? No, of course not. Nikki and Teresa will

:21:59.:22:04.

have serious political discussions and if they want to have an argument

:22:05.:22:08.

about what they are wearing, their closest friends will advise them to

:22:09.:22:15.

keep it private. It is absurd. Given that the party appears to be

:22:16.:22:23.

deciding it has been all -- ordered to changes policies about Britain's

:22:24.:22:28.

relationship with the world, it needs to be taken seriously and this

:22:29.:22:33.

Lola. Is filling a vacuum before the serious discussion starts. Thank you

:22:34.:22:37.

for filling our vacuum this morning and of course no one would ever

:22:38.:22:39.

criticise how you dress. Of course. Now, seasoned observers will warn

:22:40.:22:43.

against reading too much into parliamentary by-elections,

:22:44.:22:45.

but they can provide a vital boost for a party leader under pressure,

:22:46.:22:48.

or provide damaging ammunition Following a disappointing result

:22:49.:22:50.

for Labour last week in Richmond, Jeremy Corbyn may have been hoping

:22:51.:22:54.

for an early Christmas present at this week's

:22:55.:22:56.

contest in Lincolnshire. In Sleaford and North Hykeham,

:22:57.:22:58.

a constituency that supported Leave in the EU referendum,

:22:59.:23:06.

there was little Christmas cheer for Labour as it fell from second

:23:07.:23:09.

in 2015 to fourth place. That was at least a better

:23:10.:23:13.

performance than in Remain-supporting Richmond Park,

:23:14.:23:16.

where the party's candiate lost his deposit after attracting

:23:17.:23:19.

fewer voters than the reported number of local

:23:20.:23:22.

Labour Party members. Speaking for the Labour Party this

:23:23.:23:25.

week, MP Vernon Coaker said their policies on other major

:23:26.:23:31.

issues were "lost to an extent Some MPs feel that a lack of clarity

:23:32.:23:35.

is holding the party back. This week three frontbenchers

:23:36.:23:48.

were among the 23 Labour MPs to defy the party line and vote

:23:49.:23:51.

against a motion to begin the process of leaving the EU

:23:52.:24:00.

by the end of March. And a number of Labour MPs we've

:24:01.:24:02.

spoken to since Thursday's vote have said they fear the party now runs

:24:03.:24:05.

the risk of being squeezed by the Lib Dems and UKIP,

:24:06.:24:08.

or in the words of one, "being cannabilised,

:24:09.:24:11.

eaten from both ends". To compound their troubles,

:24:12.:24:15.

a national poll released on Friday put Labour

:24:16.:24:17.

at a seven-year low, trailing 17 It's still a season of joy

:24:18.:24:19.

for many of Mr Corbyn's supporters - they point to a series of victories

:24:20.:24:26.

under his leadership, including a by-election win

:24:27.:24:28.

in Tooting and the London mayoral Though neither candidate was a

:24:29.:24:31.

Corbynite. But there's a distinct lack

:24:32.:24:37.

of goodwill on the party of his critics - although having

:24:38.:24:41.

failed comprehensively to challenge him this summer,

:24:42.:24:43.

what they intend to do This morning Diane Abbott played

:24:44.:24:54.

down the significance of the results. The reports of the Labour

:24:55.:24:59.

Party's demise are exaggerated, we are the largest social Democratic

:25:00.:25:03.

party in Europe and the surging membership is down to the current

:25:04.:25:06.

leadership. We have the right policies on the NHS, investing in

:25:07.:25:11.

the economy, and as you know the Tories are fatally split on Europe.

:25:12.:25:15.

And we're joined now by the former mayor

:25:16.:25:17.

of London Ken Livingstone, and the former Shadow

:25:18.:25:19.

Ken Livingstone, in the most recent by-election Labour collapsed from

:25:20.:25:27.

second to fourth place, the one before that your party lost its

:25:28.:25:32.

deposit. What is the positive gloss on that? There's nothing new in

:25:33.:25:38.

this, where you have got seats which are solidly Tory, often voters

:25:39.:25:47.

switched to Lib Dem to kick other voters out. We have had good swings

:25:48.:25:53.

that indicate a Labour government so don't pay too much attention. It is

:25:54.:25:59.

like Orpington 50 years ago. Labour voters switched just to kick the

:26:00.:26:03.

Tories out. Don't read too much into these results, Labour did win

:26:04.:26:13.

tooting so it is OK. First of all I don't think it was a problem with

:26:14.:26:16.

the candidates in the by-elections, they did a really good job locally,

:26:17.:26:22.

but there is an issue with those residents and their attitudes to the

:26:23.:26:26.

national party, and I just think that when you have warning bells

:26:27.:26:30.

going off like that, we have to listen to what people are saying. I

:26:31.:26:34.

think what they are saying is they want an opposition party to have a

:26:35.:26:39.

plan. So yes we have got to attack the Conservatives where they are

:26:40.:26:43.

going wrong on the NHS, running headlong over the cliff for a hard

:26:44.:26:48.

Brexit, but we also need a plan for what Labour's alternative will be.

:26:49.:26:55.

When do we get that plant? Effectively you have got it already.

:26:56.:27:00.

John McDonnell has gone on relentlessly for the need for a

:27:01.:27:07.

massive public investment. For decades now under Labour and Tory

:27:08.:27:11.

governments we haven't invested in infrastructure, our roads are a

:27:12.:27:17.

disgrace, a broadband is antique. We need to be honest about this, if

:27:18.:27:21.

Theresa May can come back and say I've done a deal, we are leaving the

:27:22.:27:26.

EU, we will control our borders, we won't have to pay 350 million a year

:27:27.:27:31.

and stay in the single market, well... But that won't happen. If we

:27:32.:27:36.

are going to stumble along for two years heading for an economic

:27:37.:27:42.

disaster, that's why only eight MPs voted to leave, because they knew

:27:43.:27:45.

the harm it would do to their voters. If you have got a plan, why

:27:46.:27:50.

are things getting worse for you in the national polls, 17 points

:27:51.:27:55.

behind? If you look back, when I was leader of Chelsea my poll rating

:27:56.:28:00.

went down... But you have not been as bad since 1983 when you lost an

:28:01.:28:06.

election by a landslide. Over the next two years our economy will not

:28:07.:28:10.

grow strongly, it will limp along at best, as we get closer to Brexit it

:28:11.:28:15.

will get worse. All Labour MPs should be focusing on the economic

:28:16.:28:19.

alternative because nobody ever wins an election without a credible

:28:20.:28:25.

economic strategy. So as long as the country goes to hell in a hand

:28:26.:28:30.

basket, Labour will be fine. That's not good enough. You're not a

:28:31.:28:33.

commentator any more, you are part of the leadership of the party. It

:28:34.:28:41.

is to you. I will continue to argue the case for credibility,

:28:42.:28:44.

particularly in our policies, but the leadership cannot just sit back

:28:45.:28:50.

and watch this drift. On the Brexit situation, the Conservative

:28:51.:28:54.

manifesto at the last general election promised it would be yes to

:28:55.:28:58.

the single market, why aren't we holding them to account for the

:28:59.:29:02.

broken promise potentially they are about to do? If I had still been an

:29:03.:29:08.

MP, I would have been voting with you, rebelling, because we are not

:29:09.:29:13.

going to get any good deal to leave. Theresa May will stumble on for a

:29:14.:29:17.

couple of years trying to balance... The party policies were heard from

:29:18.:29:20.

Diane Abbott this morning is to get the best possible deal to leave. And

:29:21.:29:27.

I will believe it when it happens. So you don't believe a central part

:29:28.:29:32.

of Jeremy Corbyn's policy? Jeremy has accepted the fact people voted

:29:33.:29:39.

to leave. He now said we now need to get the best possible deal and you

:29:40.:29:43.

don't think it's achievable. I don't, because why would the other

:29:44.:29:48.

27 members give us a better deal staying outside? You've confused me,

:29:49.:29:56.

why are you such a big supporter of Corbyn with his policy you don't

:29:57.:29:57.

think it's achievable? Everybody knows we are not going to

:29:58.:30:09.

get a soft exit, so we either have the hard Brexit and we lose perhaps

:30:10.:30:13.

millions, certainly hundreds of thousands of jobs, or we have to say

:30:14.:30:18.

we got it wrong. I mean, you, a lot of people have been saying that all

:30:19.:30:23.

Labour's unclear on Brexit, that is why it is going wrong, I would

:30:24.:30:28.

suggest to you, that actually what the concentration on is the Tories

:30:29.:30:31.

are unclear about Brexit, they are in power, that is what matters, a

:30:32.:30:37.

bigger problem for Labour is whether Mr Corbyn's leadership will cut

:30:38.:30:41.

through or not. I think the YouGov poll this weekend not only gave us

:30:42.:30:46.

that double punch of a 17 point lead for the Conservatives but it had a

:30:47.:30:51.

33 point lead, 33 point, for Theresa May over Jeremy Corbyn, so part of

:30:52.:30:56.

the plan, think, has to be to address this leadership issue, to

:30:57.:31:00.

make sure it is also a party that is listening to the wider public and

:31:01.:31:07.

not just the small number of members or the trotsites in Momentum or

:31:08.:31:14.

whoever is the latest Marxist on the... You The thing that is ox

:31:15.:31:23.

fibbing Labour. One MP said Labour has quoted bunkum. We have has 18

:31:24.:31:28.

months of Labour MPs stabbing Jeremy in the back and some in the front.

:31:29.:31:34.

The vast majority of Labour MPs have stopped undermining Jeremy. You

:31:35.:31:37.

weren't doing that well before. Can you imagine a situation in which you

:31:38.:31:41.

have elected a new leader and the first year it is all about getting

:31:42.:31:44.

rid of imand undermining him. I disagree with Tony Blair on lots of

:31:45.:31:49.

policy issue, I didn't run wound saying this man is not fit to

:31:50.:31:53.

govern. That is because you had no support for that at the time. The

:31:54.:31:59.

idea people will take lectures from Ken on divisiveness, that is like

:32:00.:32:03.

takes lectures from Boris Johnson on diplomacy, you have to make sure,

:32:04.:32:08.

yes, that we find some accommodation after the leadership election this

:32:09.:32:13.

summer, but the plan is not there right now, and you and the rest of

:32:14.:32:20.

the leadership has to be held accountable for delivering that, I

:32:21.:32:24.

want to hear what the plan is. It is FDR he told us earlier. If you have

:32:25.:32:31.

got now because as we saw in the Autumn Statement, debt to GDP ratio

:32:32.:32:35.

at 90%, you can't convince the public by saying we will throw more

:32:36.:32:40.

money at the problem, the public want a credible plan, where the sums

:32:41.:32:44.

add up, that you are not making promises that won't be delivered.

:32:45.:32:50.

They want that plan. We need to point out our history, when Labour

:32:51.:32:55.

Waugh the election in 45 Government debt was two times that it was now..

:32:56.:33:03.

Now.. They generated exports and within 50 years we virtually paid

:33:04.:33:07.

off that debt. Austerity is not the way to go. Our economy is a disgrace

:33:08.:33:14.

compared with Germany. I agree. What we have to start saying, there is

:33:15.:33:18.

decent jobs, where are they going to be coming from, can we have a

:33:19.:33:23.

society based on fair play and prosperity for everybody not just

:33:24.:33:26.

the wealthy, that means saying, some time, that people have to

:33:27.:33:29.

contribute, they have to put in, so we have to listen to what the public

:33:30.:33:32.

are saying on issues for instance like immigration, as they said in

:33:33.:33:37.

the Brexit referendum, but make sure we have our approach set out

:33:38.:33:42.

clearly, so people know there is a ability to manage, and control these

:33:43.:33:47.

things, not just ignore them. Those tax dodgers who launder their money

:33:48.:33:56.

through Panamanian banks. If we crackdown on what might be 150

:33:57.:34:02.

billion a year of tax evasion and avoidance. That is a real outlier

:34:03.:34:08.

estimate as you know, way the highest, you cannot build the FDR

:34:09.:34:12.

programme on tax evasion revenues, alone, but let me ask you. You can

:34:13.:34:17.

say to Starbucks, if you are not going to pay tax on your profits we

:34:18.:34:23.

will tax every cup of coffee. Why don't you nationalise it? I was just

:34:24.:34:27.

checking that would be the policy. Let me ask you this. By what time do

:34:28.:34:33.

you get, start to get worrieded if the polls haven't given to turn

:34:34.:34:36.

round? I mean, I think they will turn round. When do you start to get

:34:37.:34:42.

worried? If they haven't? If in a year's time it was as bad as this we

:34:43.:34:45.

would be worried. I don't think it will be. Jeremy and his team will

:34:46.:34:50.

knows can on the economy, and that is wins every election. Bill

:34:51.:34:56.

Clinton, remember it's the economy stupid. People know if you are going

:34:57.:34:58.

to spend money they want to see where it is coming from, otherwise

:34:59.:35:02.

they will think it is their taxes that will go up and the

:35:03.:35:07.

Conservative, Theresa May, will scare the British public over plans

:35:08.:35:12.

that are not properly... What do you do if things haven't got better in

:35:13.:35:18.

12 months? We lost the leadership election in the summer but we will

:35:19.:35:22.

hold our leadership to account. What does that mean? It means asking for

:35:23.:35:29.

the plan, testing what the proposals are, are they properly credible, do

:35:30.:35:34.

they make sure that they meet the test the public... You just have to

:35:35.:35:39.

bite the bottom lip now, you privately, a lot of you think your

:35:40.:35:44.

party is heading for catastrophe. I don't think it is acceptable that we

:35:45.:35:49.

have this level of performance, currently, I am sure Ken agrees the

:35:50.:35:53.

opinion polls, and those by by-election were just not good

:35:54.:35:57.

enough. We have to show leadership, certainly on Brexit, hold the

:35:58.:36:00.

Government to account. Attack them for the crisis in the NHS, yes and

:36:01.:36:05.

on the economy, to deliver credible policy force, example on defending

:36:06.:36:09.

national security and making sure we stand up for humanitarian

:36:10.:36:10.

intervention. Final point, your stand up for humanitarian

:36:11.:36:16.

party has lost Scotland. You are now in third place behind the stories --

:36:17.:36:20.

Tories. I never thought I would be able to say that in a broadcast, if

:36:21.:36:26.

you lose the north too, you are heading for the smallest

:36:27.:36:27.

you lose the north too, you are Parliamentary Labour Party since the

:36:28.:36:31.

war, aren't you. But that is our weakness, we in the 13 years of the

:36:32.:36:35.

last Labour Government neglected rebuilding our manufacturing in the

:36:36.:36:38.

way the Germans have done. Millions of people used to have good job, we

:36:39.:36:44.

used to have 8 million jobs in manufacturing it is down two. It is

:36:45.:36:47.

in the north, that Jeremy's strategy has the most relevance, of actually

:36:48.:36:50.

getting the investment and rebuilding. All right. We will see.

:36:51.:36:55.

Come back in 12 months if not before and we will check it out.

:36:56.:37:00.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:01.:37:02.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:37:03.:37:07.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:37:08.:37:09.

Coming up on the programme: John Swinney says the SFA needs

:37:10.:37:12.

to set up an independent inquiry into historic child abuse.

:37:13.:37:20.

Also, how will the Scottish Government use its new tax powers

:37:21.:37:28.

And Brexit - the Christmas tree connection.

:37:29.:37:37.

I was treated like an equally here and I could work and live a study as

:37:38.:37:42.

much as I want to. The big question is what's going to happen now is

:37:43.:37:46.

back The Scottish Football Association

:37:47.:37:49.

into historic child abuse, says the Deputy First Minister and

:37:50.:37:53.

He says he won't extend a current inquiry into abuse

:37:54.:37:56.

of children in care to look at the latest allegations.

:37:57.:37:59.

He's also dismissed fears that a shake up of school inspections

:38:00.:38:01.

will give parents less information on standards and says, this week,

:38:02.:38:05.

more figures on Scotland's schools will be released.

:38:06.:38:07.

I spoke to John Swinney just before we came on air.

:38:08.:38:15.

can I start by asking about things in the papers this morning about

:38:16.:38:23.

changes to the inspection regime and worries that parents will not have

:38:24.:38:27.

as much information as they do now to enable them to know how this

:38:28.:38:32.

school is doing compared to other schools in the area? Is that going

:38:33.:38:36.

to happen or can you guarantee it will not happen? What were doing

:38:37.:38:42.

with the inspection approaches make and Europeans get more information

:38:43.:38:44.

with the inspection approaches make about performance of the young

:38:45.:38:48.

people within schools and the full inspections that take place just

:38:49.:38:51.

know it will continue to take place and all of the information that goes

:38:52.:38:54.

with that will be shared with parents. We have worked closely with

:38:55.:39:00.

the Scottish parent teacher Council to find additional ways in which we

:39:01.:39:04.

can assess the performance of schools and sure that information

:39:05.:39:08.

directly with parents. The heart of what I want to take forward is much

:39:09.:39:13.

more open information about the performance of schools in the whole

:39:14.:39:16.

education system in Scotland and at the heart of that means parents

:39:17.:39:21.

being well informed about the performance of schools. You can

:39:22.:39:24.

guarantee there will be nothing parents can know already about how

:39:25.:39:28.

their school is doing relative to others that they will not knowing

:39:29.:39:33.

the future? I can guarantee that, yes. The PISA results, you said they

:39:34.:39:41.

weren't a surprise because there have been bad figures recently in

:39:42.:39:46.

Scotland itself. You are keen not to blame curriculum for excellence. If

:39:47.:39:51.

it's not the fall of curriculum Freckleton -- excellence, can you

:39:52.:39:53.

explain why Scotland is falling down the league tables? The information

:39:54.:40:01.

that came out this week is information that reinforces what we

:40:02.:40:05.

find out in the spring of 2015 from the Scottish survey of literacy and

:40:06.:40:10.

numeracy which comes out on a periodic basis and the response to

:40:11.:40:14.

that, the Government took a number of steps, one of which to invite the

:40:15.:40:20.

OECD to review the curriculum of excellence and identify where we

:40:21.:40:23.

need to strengthen the implementation of performance of

:40:24.:40:26.

curriculum for excellence. The OECD gives that review in December 2015,

:40:27.:40:32.

it identified the fact that we need to simplify the curriculum and how

:40:33.:40:34.

we communicated that curriculum and we've gone ahead and done that. It

:40:35.:40:38.

set out how we needed to take measures to ensure we had more

:40:39.:40:43.

effective assessment approaches in place so we could track the progress

:40:44.:40:45.

of young people and support them to fulfil their puppet -- potential as

:40:46.:40:50.

we move forward. We also suggested we need to intensify efforts within

:40:51.:40:58.

Scottish education and those measures have been set oats and then

:40:59.:41:02.

by the Government. At the turn of the, it was well ahead of the

:41:03.:41:11.

average maths and reading and science and we're no average.

:41:12.:41:14.

England has got us up and overtaken us. You have spent the last seven

:41:15.:41:21.

months trying to get to grips with the education system. Why do you

:41:22.:41:26.

think this decline has happened? There are a couple of relevant

:41:27.:41:30.

things here. The first is that the PISA approach is one particular way

:41:31.:41:33.

of assessing the performance of young people within the education

:41:34.:41:38.

system and your right to highlight of the comparative performance going

:41:39.:41:42.

back to the year 2000 and has been a decline in that performance. On the

:41:43.:41:46.

PISA approach we are performing at a lower level than we were in 2006.

:41:47.:41:52.

The steps that I just set out to you in my previous answer that were

:41:53.:41:55.

suggested to us by the OECD are important steps for us to take to

:41:56.:41:58.

ensure we strengthen the performance and address the issues that arise

:41:59.:42:05.

out of the PISA... It will be difficult for parents watching Mr

:42:06.:42:07.

have much faith in measures she wanted it in the future to address

:42:08.:42:12.

this if you can't give them a pretty simple and clear explanation of why

:42:13.:42:16.

there has been such an alarming decline in performance of our

:42:17.:42:19.

schools since the turn of the century? What I said to you in my

:42:20.:42:24.

answer was that we went to the OECD to undertake a review of curriculum

:42:25.:42:28.

for excellence in 2015 and the suggested a number of things where

:42:29.:42:32.

we were not performing strongly enough into to take more action, an

:42:33.:42:38.

simple find the curriculum, strength of -- strengthening and empowering

:42:39.:42:43.

schools within Scotland. All of these measures the Government has

:42:44.:42:49.

now taken forward. Our process was informed by the OECD analysis of

:42:50.:42:52.

curriculum for excellence. The other point I was going to make to you is

:42:53.:42:59.

that the PISA statistics show as one snapshot of performance, there is a

:43:00.:43:02.

much broader range of performance information we need to see, a lot of

:43:03.:43:05.

which will become clear in the course of this week when I set out

:43:06.:43:09.

some further information to Parliament about that performance of

:43:10.:43:12.

information. It gives you much assessment of the performance of

:43:13.:43:17.

young people and the performance of schools. Although the PISA results

:43:18.:43:20.

are disappointing, what I've seen as they go around the country is an

:43:21.:43:24.

honest strength within our schools, education system, but what I would

:43:25.:43:29.

concede is that not all of that strength is systemic within Scottish

:43:30.:43:32.

dedication and I have to make sure that that's the case. Are you saying

:43:33.:43:36.

before you do should bring to Parliament this week will give a

:43:37.:43:40.

rosier picture than that painted by the PISA report? What they will do

:43:41.:43:47.

is give a broader picture of wider factors within Scottish education.

:43:48.:43:48.

is give a broader picture of wider Will it look better? I can't tell

:43:49.:43:53.

you that information because I have to show that was Parliament. The

:43:54.:43:58.

PISA information looks at science, reading, mathematics. It's important

:43:59.:44:05.

we look at a much wider variety of indicators about the performance of

:44:06.:44:08.

young people within Scottish education and that is essentially

:44:09.:44:12.

what curriculum for excellence at -- Abe enables us to do. A creepy much

:44:13.:44:16.

broader expense of learning for young people and ensures the much

:44:17.:44:20.

better equipped to the world of work and equip them for their lifetime.

:44:21.:44:25.

Parents watching this must be thinking, we had these figures

:44:26.:44:28.

earlier this year within Scotland itself showing things were getting

:44:29.:44:32.

worse. We've got the PISA figures which have shown an alarming

:44:33.:44:37.

decline, which show that England had caught up Scotland and overtaking it

:44:38.:44:41.

and it's all very well talking about these broader measures and having

:44:42.:44:47.

broader measurement and the rest of it, but you don't seem to be able to

:44:48.:44:52.

give us a simple explanation of what is going wrong. I've done that twice

:44:53.:45:01.

already. No, you haven't. You said about the issues you want to

:45:02.:45:05.

address. With the greatest of respect, I have. The Government

:45:06.:45:09.

commissioned the OECD to look at the performance of curriculum for

:45:10.:45:14.

excellence and the OECD, the authors of the PISA statistics, they told us

:45:15.:45:18.

a number of things when we needed to strengthen our performance. The flip

:45:19.:45:21.

side of that is that obviously we weren't good enough at taking those

:45:22.:45:25.

things forward before that. That is where the problems arise from. We

:45:26.:45:29.

are now ticking action on attainment, assessment, simple

:45:30.:45:31.

finally curriculum, strengthening the leadership in education and

:45:32.:45:38.

ensuring schools are at the heart of education system. All of these

:45:39.:45:41.

measures have been taken forward but I would also point out due to

:45:42.:45:46.

reassure parents that we do have a situation where an examination

:45:47.:45:50.

performance we delivered in August the 2nd highest attainment levels of

:45:51.:45:54.

any year performance in the examination system and we also saw

:45:55.:46:00.

25% increase in vocational qualifications within Scottish

:46:01.:46:03.

education. The PISA statistics are one snapshot and yes they are

:46:04.:46:06.

disappointing but there are other measures of performance which are

:46:07.:46:12.

very encouraging. To other measures of encouragement, the SNP Government

:46:13.:46:15.

withdrew from. Will you give a commitment that you will rejoin

:46:16.:46:19.

withdrew from. Will you give a those? We are involved in the PISA

:46:20.:46:25.

analysis... You withdrew from two others. Yes, there is going to be

:46:26.:46:29.

plenty of performance information coming out. The Scottish Government

:46:30.:46:33.

has committed itself to standardised assessment performance of young

:46:34.:46:35.

people within Scottish education that we can map the progress of

:46:36.:46:45.

young people. Why not join the Saudis... We are already part of the

:46:46.:46:49.

PISA study which is a recognised international survey of opinion. You

:46:50.:46:55.

withdrew from two others. Yes, we did. What I consider to be

:46:56.:46:59.

international adequate expertise and analysis of performance of Scottish

:47:00.:47:03.

education already available to us by our participation within PISA and

:47:04.:47:08.

the work and advice we get from the International Council for education

:47:09.:47:11.

advisers and we've already sought the intervention and involvement of

:47:12.:47:14.

the OECD in reviewing curriculum for excellence. There is plenty of

:47:15.:47:20.

analysis around, plenty of analysis, the key thing is to focus on

:47:21.:47:25.

delivering the improvements and the measures that will strengthen the

:47:26.:47:29.

performance of Scottish education and fulfil the needs of young people

:47:30.:47:33.

within Scotland. At the Scottish National as education minister, do

:47:34.:47:36.

you feel a little embarrassed or even ashamed when you see the

:47:37.:47:39.

outgoing Chief inspector of schools in England Sir Michael will shop

:47:40.:47:43.

complained that Scotland is dragging down in the UK average in the PISA

:47:44.:47:49.

results? I don't think anyone looking at what I've said in the

:47:50.:47:52.

course of this week could in any way suggest I am anything other than

:47:53.:47:55.

focused on improving performance in Scottish education and I'm accepting

:47:56.:48:00.

openly and can delete the PISA results are not good enough within

:48:01.:48:04.

Scotland. No, I don't find unacceptable but I made that

:48:05.:48:07.

absolutely clear to Parliament the other day. I am focused on

:48:08.:48:11.

delivering improvement and I want to enable everybody in the education

:48:12.:48:14.

system in Scotland to work collaboratively to ensure we do that

:48:15.:48:19.

for the young people. The more we separate out from the rest of the

:48:20.:48:24.

UK, the better we'll do, and here we have a situation for education in

:48:25.:48:28.

Scotland was much better in England at the turn-of-the-century and now

:48:29.:48:29.

it's worse. From an SNP point of at the turn-of-the-century and now

:48:30.:48:34.

view, that is pretty awful, isn't it? There is a whole variety of

:48:35.:48:40.

areas of performance in Scotland that is superior to performance and

:48:41.:48:45.

the rest of the UK. I could show you that in relation to performance and

:48:46.:48:49.

health service for our health service is admittedly performing

:48:50.:48:51.

head of the rest of the United Kingdom. You can single out any

:48:52.:48:55.

example you want to substantiate the point you're making to make but...

:48:56.:49:00.

It's what your Government says is the most important policy for you.

:49:01.:49:04.

I'm contradicting the evidence you're putting in front of me. I am

:49:05.:49:09.

focused unreservedly an improvement in Scottish education to make sure

:49:10.:49:12.

we can fulfil the life chances of young people in Scotland. That's

:49:13.:49:15.

what people would expect of me and that's what I'm doing. There is a

:49:16.:49:20.

general problem here that the OECD report, not the PISA results, but

:49:21.:49:25.

the one you commissioned makes a big point of saying there are not robust

:49:26.:49:30.

measures in so that we can tell whether curriculum for excellence is

:49:31.:49:34.

a success or not. It's only a few weeks since we had ordered Scotland

:49:35.:49:38.

saying much the same thing about integrating the NHS with social

:49:39.:49:40.

care, saying there are no measures in place so we know whether it's

:49:41.:49:45.

working or not. It seems to be a systemic problem in Scotland that we

:49:46.:49:50.

come up with these great schemes, like curriculum for excellence, but

:49:51.:49:53.

we don't actually have proper benchmarks in place so that we can

:49:54.:49:57.

turn right after a few years and see that either works or it didn't work.

:49:58.:50:00.

Would you accept that the problem here? With the greatest of respect,

:50:01.:50:05.

that's the point to be making to use this interview. It's one of the

:50:06.:50:08.

things the OECD said to us we need to strengthen. That's why we're

:50:09.:50:12.

taking forward to standardised assessment to inform teacher

:50:13.:50:15.

judgments we can see that performance of young people and we

:50:16.:50:19.

can intervene and young people to enable them to fulfil their

:50:20.:50:23.

potential. Yes, that information is required, that's what were putting

:50:24.:50:26.

in place and were not disputing that employees in response to the PISA

:50:27.:50:30.

statistics, were putting it in place in response to the review that we

:50:31.:50:33.

commissioned by the OECD of curriculum for excellence to make

:50:34.:50:36.

sure we were in the strongest possible position to deliver the

:50:37.:50:39.

best performance we could for young people.

:50:40.:50:45.

Can I just change the subject for a moment. Child abuse. There are

:50:46.:50:53.

demands from some victims groups and opposition politicians that the

:50:54.:50:57.

inquiry you set up into child abuse should be extended to football. Will

:50:58.:51:04.

you reconsider and perhaps do that? No, I will not do that. I have

:51:05.:51:09.

listened carefully to survivor groups who are involved in the

:51:10.:51:13.

establishment of the Scottish Government's child abuse inquiry,

:51:14.:51:18.

The Independent inquiry into the abuse of young people in care, where

:51:19.:51:23.

young people were failed by the state. Jack McConnell gave an

:51:24.:51:26.

apology on behalf of the state to those young people many years ago.

:51:27.:51:32.

The Scottish Government is now conducting an independent inquiry

:51:33.:51:36.

into that experience. Survivors groups want that to proceed. Not all

:51:37.:51:41.

of them have the same view that they say they wanted to proceed, they do

:51:42.:51:48.

not want the timescale extended. I want to make sure that the

:51:49.:51:52.

commitments that we have given to the survivors, young people who have

:51:53.:51:58.

been in care in our system, who were badly failed by the state, are

:51:59.:52:03.

properly addressed by an independent inquiry. If you do not want to

:52:04.:52:08.

extend the existing one should the SFA have an inquiry into what is

:52:09.:52:13.

going on? I do think that. First and foremost the police have got to be

:52:14.:52:17.

given the time and the space to address any complaints that are made

:52:18.:52:22.

by any individual that has had the awful experience of being affected

:52:23.:52:26.

by child abuse within football. They must go to the police. They are

:52:27.:52:31.

helplines available to assist people to make that contact and I encourage

:52:32.:52:35.

people to do that. The police must have the time and space to address

:52:36.:52:39.

that issue. But I think the SFA should recognise the extent of the

:52:40.:52:45.

actions that various clubs have taken individually, and various

:52:46.:52:50.

clubs have taken action individually, to examine previous

:52:51.:52:54.

conduct in handling these issues, but the existence of that

:52:55.:52:57.

information is now so widespread that the SFA has got to consider

:52:58.:53:01.

setting up an independent inquiry that will satisfy these issues, but

:53:02.:53:05.

they are properly addressed in football. I understand what you are

:53:06.:53:13.

saying about not wanting to extend the existing inquiry because these

:53:14.:53:16.

things are always very problematic and make it more problematic, I

:53:17.:53:21.

understand that, but some people would say, and I cast no aspersions

:53:22.:53:25.

on the SFA, some people would say given the issues at stake, it is how

:53:26.:53:31.

the authorities and football hands of the allegations in the past, and

:53:32.:53:37.

the SFA is not the appropriate body, it should be somebody independent

:53:38.:53:42.

from the SFA. That is what I said. The SFA should establish an

:53:43.:53:46.

independent inquiry. They should do it but that should be independent of

:53:47.:53:53.

them? Absolutely. It should be conducted via an authoritative

:53:54.:53:55.

independent respected figure who will be able to look at these issues

:53:56.:53:59.

without fear or favour and to examine all of the issues to the

:54:00.:54:03.

satisfaction of the wider debate within Scotland. But as a necessity

:54:04.:54:07.

of the current situation but football and Scotland finds itself

:54:08.:54:08.

in. Thank you very much. And in response to that interview,

:54:09.:54:10.

the SFA have released a statement saying they're "open minded

:54:11.:54:13.

to an independent review, but with the right scope

:54:14.:54:18.

and terms of reference." A government's budget is something

:54:19.:54:26.

few people get excited about. But as Derek Mackay puts the final

:54:27.:54:28.

touches to his plans for the next year, speculation is growing -

:54:29.:54:32.

slowly - about what he This is the first time

:54:33.:54:34.

the Scottish Government will set out how it'll use new income tax powers,

:54:35.:54:38.

which were devolved Charlotte Barbour is Director of tax

:54:39.:54:40.

at ICAS and is in our Edinburgh studio and Professor Murray Pittock

:54:41.:54:44.

is from Glasgow University. Give us something to get excited

:54:45.:54:59.

about because we already know about the change in tax relief. We will

:55:00.:55:03.

return to that. Income tax is a tax, the change in tax relief. We will

:55:04.:55:05.

it is almost impossible to introduce the change in tax relief. We will

:55:06.:55:09.

it, but they have some things to play with, apart from the much

:55:10.:55:13.

heralded changes to Air Passenger Duty, they will have about ?1

:55:14.:55:16.

billion to play with potentially from the restriction on the higher

:55:17.:55:23.

rate tax threshold, which they are putting going to cost of living,

:55:24.:55:29.

rather than a collective in place of the limitation. But that is not

:55:30.:55:32.

extra money. It simply means they do not lose money. It is extra money

:55:33.:55:39.

compared to what the tax take would be if the tax take was on a UK wide

:55:40.:55:43.

basis. Effectively it is potentially extra money. The issue is, and this

:55:44.:55:48.

again is a problem for the way the extra money. The issue is, and this

:55:49.:55:53.

taxes are going to be collected in the longer term, if the Scottish

:55:54.:55:56.

growth rate continues to trail the UK growth rate, never mind the

:55:57.:56:02.

Barnett Formula, there will be more and more tax on a lower and lower

:56:03.:56:07.

base. There will be quite a big slug of tax fixing higher rate owners

:56:08.:56:11.

because of the council tax bands at the top, that is due to be raised as

:56:12.:56:15.

well, that'll have a significant effect. I am still Cubist make this

:56:16.:56:20.

extra money, Charlotte Barbour. I would of thought if they do not

:56:21.:56:26.

implement what is being committed in England, it does not get extra

:56:27.:56:33.

money,... One of the things interesting to me is the difference

:56:34.:56:38.

in presentation between how things operate and how you might see them

:56:39.:56:41.

from a more political perspective. That is two ways of seeing things.

:56:42.:56:46.

You can compare where we sit in relation to England and the rest of

:56:47.:56:49.

the UK under their special school up they will have more tax relief, pay

:56:50.:56:55.

less tax, if our officials do not go up, correspondingly we will pay

:56:56.:57:04.

more. Very clear, thank you for that. Let me ask you something else.

:57:05.:57:13.

In England and the rest of the UK are these thresholds going to be

:57:14.:57:18.

indexed as well as entities to 50,000 or are they just going to go

:57:19.:57:23.

with the programme of increasing the higher rate threshold to 50,000? If

:57:24.:57:28.

it is just going to go to 50,000 it would mean that the higher inflation

:57:29.:57:31.

is the less difference there would be between Scotland and England, or

:57:32.:57:35.

is that wrong? Why do we not take a step back for a moment? The whole

:57:36.:57:41.

point about income tax rates and band is to allow Scottish Parliament

:57:42.:57:46.

and the rest of the UK to go in different directions and perhaps we

:57:47.:57:48.

need to question why the starting point should always be a comparison

:57:49.:57:53.

with the rest of the UK. If you go back to the Smith Commission and his

:57:54.:57:57.

report, the income tax powers offer sheared powers across income tax

:57:58.:57:59.

because that is the other thing you sheared powers across income tax

:58:00.:58:02.

had to bear in mind is that income tax is not totally devolved, the

:58:03.:58:08.

income from editors, but not the actual underlying tax. If you look

:58:09.:58:14.

at the tax itself, things like what is income, still sits with UK

:58:15.:58:17.

legislation. In Scotland we are going to be able to raise rates of

:58:18.:58:23.

bans on earnings, pensions, those kind of earnings, but for savings

:58:24.:58:30.

and dividends, that'll stay with the UK, Sobel personal allowances. There

:58:31.:58:33.

is not a huge amount of room for manoeuvre. What about my point about

:58:34.:58:41.

inflation, is that wrong? Inflation, the rates me the inflation indexed

:58:42.:58:44.

or you might want to raise them beyond that. What is happening in

:58:45.:58:48.

the rest of the UK is that rates are going beyond inflation. They are not

:58:49.:58:53.

actually being index. That 50 K is a commitment to the end of this

:58:54.:58:59.

Parliament. It is 50 K nominal, not 50 K index. It is not indexed. My

:59:00.:59:06.

point is if you are going to indexed officials in Scotland, the higher

:59:07.:59:08.

inflation goes, then either you come to the English rate. Right, but it

:59:09.:59:14.

will take quite a bit of time because the jumps are quite

:59:15.:59:16.

significant in the rest of the UK bands and I think the issue of tax

:59:17.:59:23.

and diverging scrum appeared angled, it is difficult to do anything with

:59:24.:59:27.

income tax, no UK Government has increased basic rate income tax

:59:28.:59:34.

since the 1974-79 Labour Government, it is a toxic tax to increase, the

:59:35.:59:42.

SNP propose that in 1999, it was a disaster, the Labour Government

:59:43.:59:46.

suggested an extra penny, it was not good for them. Social attitudes

:59:47.:59:51.

survey, people will say we want a more egalitarian society in

:59:52.:59:54.

Scotland, a gap between what they say and in the rest of the UK, that

:59:55.:00:00.

is more of an identity expression. If you say that we are going to

:00:01.:00:02.

increase the rate of basic income If you say that we are going to

:00:03.:00:09.

tax, that is an electoral loser. There are also a number of issues

:00:10.:00:15.

about elsewhere in the budget which relate back to the discussion we

:00:16.:00:18.

were having earlier about targets. The sense in the future of

:00:19.:00:23.

Scotland's getting a significant proportion of VAT receipts, how

:00:24.:00:30.

would that be impacted by increasing council tax bands and effectively

:00:31.:00:35.

increasing the top rates of tax, will Scotland's lagging growth

:00:36.:00:40.

distress # will depress the VAT tax take, do we know what the measures

:00:41.:00:44.

are? We are running out of time. Charlotte Barbour, something else,

:00:45.:00:50.

are the new borrowing powers for the Scottish Government this time? There

:00:51.:00:56.

are new borrowing powers and one feature of this is to help manage

:00:57.:01:01.

the tax side of things because once you devolved tax powers the take

:01:02.:01:04.

from the tax becomes less certain not just in total amount you take

:01:05.:01:10.

but in fluctuation so when it comes in, so they may need to ease

:01:11.:01:14.

borrowing across that. They need to put the money away for a rainy day

:01:15.:01:18.

in case the tax take turns out to be less than they expect. You need to

:01:19.:01:23.

have it across that, or more specifically, month by month. They

:01:24.:01:27.

cannot just max out borrowing and start building new roads and

:01:28.:01:30.

airports. I do not like to pass comment on that. You would? I

:01:31.:01:38.

certainly would. It is their Corbin policy down south but the question

:01:39.:01:45.

is is it sustainable? Two questions. Do they want to hype offer Kate the

:01:46.:01:49.

restriction on the higher rate of tax to help? To prevent criticism do

:01:50.:01:58.

they want to quantify the impact of airport passenger duty change? Lots

:01:59.:02:05.

more the impact measurement has to be quantified because there is a

:02:06.:02:08.

risk of a medium-term downturn in the Scottish tax take. Hype offer

:02:09.:02:15.

Keating means raising a specific tax for a specific purpose. We will have

:02:16.:02:17.

two there. The National Farmers Union has

:02:18.:02:19.

written to the First Minister and to the Prime Minister seeking

:02:20.:02:21.

guarantees for agriculture, horticulture and food processers

:02:22.:02:23.

after we leave the EU. One of their key demands is for

:02:24.:02:26.

a scheme to allow seasonal workers - primarily from Eastern Europe -

:02:27.:02:29.

to continue to work here We're used, in Scotland,

:02:30.:02:32.

to thinking that mainly means in the summer to harvest

:02:33.:02:36.

soft fruit in the likes But it turns out that's

:02:37.:02:38.

not all they do. Huw Williams reports now on Brexit -

:02:39.:02:41.

the Christmas tree connection. Packing Christmas trees to sell in

:02:42.:02:54.

the farm shop here and at sites across Scotland. His surname sounds

:02:55.:03:01.

Scottish but it is complicated. I was born in the States. We moved to

:03:02.:03:07.

Denmark. From Denmark I grew up in Germany. Most of my life I have

:03:08.:03:12.

spent in Germany. I am actually French. In 2009 I came to Scotland

:03:13.:03:17.

to study. I fell in love with the police and have worked and lived

:03:18.:03:21.

here ever since. The Christmas tree job is seasonal work. In between

:03:22.:03:27.

being an outdoor instructor and a mountain bike guide, all possible

:03:28.:03:31.

because of freedom of movement while the UK is in the EU. It is great

:03:32.:03:34.

having a French passport because you can travel and work. I came to

:03:35.:03:39.

Scotland and got a National Insurance number and was treated

:03:40.:03:42.

like an equal, I can live and work and study as much as I want to. The

:03:43.:03:46.

question is what is going to happen now? The boss says his business and

:03:47.:03:52.

industry as a whole relies on seasonal workers. That reality is

:03:53.:03:56.

they come from countries like Bulgaria, Romania, Poland and the

:03:57.:04:01.

Baltic States. We have advertised and we still advertise locally to

:04:02.:04:04.

try to get people to work these long hours and work hard in the cold

:04:05.:04:08.

conditions on the farm and it is not easy to find them. We do have local

:04:09.:04:12.

people that work for us but we still need a top up because there are so

:04:13.:04:19.

many hours and so many days. In fact if you are lucky enough to have a

:04:20.:04:23.

traditional family Christmas this year you would be hard-pressed to

:04:24.:04:25.

think of an element which has not been brought to you at least in part

:04:26.:04:32.

by seasonal workers from Europe. Traditionally we think of people

:04:33.:04:35.

from Eastern Europe and other parts of Europe working in the fields,

:04:36.:04:39.

sprouts this time of year, Christmas tree harvest, which employs quite a

:04:40.:04:45.

lot of Eastern European Labour as well. Quite a lot of these companies

:04:46.:04:50.

are Danish companies, we are integrated with that. And the

:04:51.:04:52.

poultry industry and turkey production. That includes this

:04:53.:04:57.

sprouts and the cabbages although the boss here can see some benefits

:04:58.:05:02.

from Brexit, if the right policies are put in space. It is always great

:05:03.:05:08.

to have control. The fact there is freedom of movement, that has

:05:09.:05:10.

allowed workers to come in and settle in the country. That has had

:05:11.:05:19.

its own issues and problems on the national Health Service and things

:05:20.:05:23.

like that. Where as if there is a properly implemented seasonal

:05:24.:05:28.

workers scheme put in place where there is control of movement in and

:05:29.:05:31.

a note of the country, but is going to mean agriculture can continue to

:05:32.:05:34.

operate. The industry has a ready made moves

:05:35.:05:45.

to be less reliant on seasonal workers, production of fruit and veg

:05:46.:05:50.

was up between 6% fruit and 9% vegetables in the last year. The

:05:51.:05:55.

seasonal worker requirement was down by about 6.5%. We are continually

:05:56.:06:01.

recognising the industry and making better use of the Labour that we are

:06:02.:06:08.

bringing in. For now at least the industry wants Government to allow

:06:09.:06:12.

it access to the workers it needs. We need the Government to understand

:06:13.:06:15.

what the challenges are and the requirements of a fragile industry,

:06:16.:06:21.

which agriculture currently is. The question was raised in the House of

:06:22.:06:25.

Commons this week. Will the Government commit to protecting

:06:26.:06:29.

access for seasonal workers from the EU to safeguard our agricultural

:06:30.:06:35.

sector? We are necessary how -- we are aware how necessary is to have a

:06:36.:06:39.

seasonal scheme in place and we are looking at. A pointed question for

:06:40.:06:44.

politicians. If we're going to have people come into the farm and

:06:45.:06:50.

harvest when we're busy and need additional labour for the rest of

:06:51.:06:53.

the year, we are we going to get these people from? We're going to

:06:54.:06:57.

come from? And are going to come from Scotland or Britain? Where

:06:58.:07:07.

else? I know. Could Brexit change everything, even Christmas? We had

:07:08.:07:16.

to get the Christmas music in somewhere.

:07:17.:07:17.

It's time to look back at the events of the past week and see what's

:07:18.:07:20.

And my guests this week are Kathleen Nutt, a freelance

:07:21.:07:27.

journalist, who writes for The National and

:07:28.:07:29.

the former special advisor for Labour, Paul Sinclair.

:07:30.:07:36.

Education, what do you make of all this PISA stuff? Yanuyanutawa of the

:07:37.:07:48.

first time the SNP Government has looked truly weak. For the results

:07:49.:07:52.

to be down over a decade steadily and for John Swinney to see the

:07:53.:07:57.

found out about in OECD when you pointed it out. They have been in

:07:58.:07:59.

Government three years and didn't know this is going to happen? The

:08:00.:08:03.

decline is not entirely on the SNP because the decline has been since

:08:04.:08:08.

the turn-of-the-century and labour and the Liberal Democrats were in

:08:09.:08:11.

power for much of that time. The presiding over some of this. The

:08:12.:08:18.

inventive curriculum for excellence as well. The point I would make is

:08:19.:08:21.

the SNP have been for nearly a decade and apparently didn't notice

:08:22.:08:25.

this decline having got rid of two international studies on Scottish

:08:26.:08:27.

education, they didn't notice it until 2015. We are in in error of

:08:28.:08:34.

identity politics. Edit -- education as part of the Scottish identity and

:08:35.:08:38.

it's no worse than it is in the rest of the UK. That's not acceptable.

:08:39.:08:43.

What do you make of it? I would agree with Paul. It is really bad

:08:44.:08:47.

news for everyone in Scotland and these results were terrible.

:08:48.:08:54.

Education in Scotland was seen as a beacon of excellence. People in

:08:55.:08:59.

Northern Ireland would talk about how wonderful the Scottish education

:09:00.:09:04.

system is. Issues like curriculum for excellence, has come up and it's

:09:05.:09:08.

been blamed perhaps by some for excellence, has come up and it's

:09:09.:09:11.

commentators for the decline, that may well be an element of that,

:09:12.:09:20.

there is also the wider issue about resources in education. When the SNP

:09:21.:09:24.

came to parliament in 2007, they had a manifesto commitment of a primary

:09:25.:09:31.

one class having no more than 18 children it. That has fallen by the

:09:32.:09:35.

wayside and there have been cuts to education in terms of fewer

:09:36.:09:41.

teachers, class sizes are bigger, and there is a very few teaching

:09:42.:09:45.

assistants known in class. I've been looking at education, one of the top

:09:46.:09:50.

performers were actually some of the small independent state in Europe,

:09:51.:09:56.

Finland, Ireland, Estonia. In Finland and Estonia, children start

:09:57.:10:01.

school a little later. That seems to be one of the lessons, having

:10:02.:10:06.

children start school later is perhaps a good thing. Curriculum for

:10:07.:10:09.

excellence, the Government is desperate not to blame that. It's

:10:10.:10:15.

kind of alluded to in the OECD report. If he had just said let's

:10:16.:10:19.

teach children basic subjects and have some interdisciplinary bits

:10:20.:10:26.

added on. As you are doing a class in history but there is geographical

:10:27.:10:32.

aspects there as well. Instead of this enormous upheaval and this

:10:33.:10:37.

completely new thing. I don't know... I've read some of the

:10:38.:10:39.

documents issued to teachers on this and I don't know how the teachers

:10:40.:10:44.

manage. I frankly find the stuff unintelligible. I find much of the

:10:45.:10:49.

OECD report that the Scottish Government commissioned pretty

:10:50.:10:51.

unintelligible. I absolutely agree that I find it remarkable that we've

:10:52.:11:00.

been going through this for more than ten years. Teachers anecdotally

:11:01.:11:03.

saying this isn't working, not aside implemented but it isn't working at

:11:04.:11:07.

all. We don't do anything about it until we come up with this report.

:11:08.:11:14.

Child abuse, you have heard a John Swinney saying the thing-mac have

:11:15.:11:18.

set up an independent enquiry presumably under a QC. -- SFA. The

:11:19.:11:27.

SFA are also saying they are open to that and I think that is something

:11:28.:11:31.

to be welcomed. It has been a horrendous problem and reading the

:11:32.:11:38.

stories of what people went through, it is really harrowing. I don't

:11:39.:11:43.

think it should go into the enquiry... It should not be fed into

:11:44.:11:46.

the institutional base enquiry that is going on a moment. You think John

:11:47.:11:54.

Swinney is right? I think you're quite right. This institutional

:11:55.:11:58.

abuse enquiry dates back to the 1950s, there are victims there who I

:11:59.:12:01.

really elderly who want to see justice in a lifetime and the

:12:02.:12:06.

campaigners have been demanding an enquiry since about 2002. It's

:12:07.:12:10.

finally got off the ground and I think the remit was widened, it

:12:11.:12:13.

would overcomplicate it, it could lose focus. There have been problems

:12:14.:12:21.

with the one here already and be won in England. It would say that the

:12:22.:12:24.

enquiries that have been successful, the one in the Republic of Ireland,

:12:25.:12:28.

has been focused very much an institutional abuse and have not

:12:29.:12:34.

lost their focus. John Swinney is right and the analogy with England

:12:35.:12:37.

is absolutely right. It's far too broad and not working. I wouldn't

:12:38.:12:45.

send the... The idea they can set up some kind of enquiry, the setup

:12:46.:12:48.

enquiry after enquiry into how the play football and leave all field

:12:49.:12:53.

and the game is failing. They should be an independent enquiry but maybe

:12:54.:12:57.

the Government could add a bit of steel that the SFA won't. Sadly for

:12:58.:13:02.

you were not quite out of times were going to talk about the Labour

:13:03.:13:06.

Party. Scottish Labour relaunch this week, were you massively impressed?

:13:07.:13:11.

It was a brave speech by Kezia Dugdale. I don't know if we won the

:13:12.:13:15.

second act of union, Alistair Brown and Gordon Brown back it but it

:13:16.:13:19.

seems to hit hinge on a couple of things. It is one that England want.

:13:20.:13:26.

Crucially, Jeremy Corbyn winning an election and I don't think anybody

:13:27.:13:30.

really think that's going to happen any time soon. Where you were out?

:13:31.:13:37.

Not at all. It was probably the right move for Labour to do this but

:13:38.:13:41.

it should have been done years ago, rather than now. It is a bit of

:13:42.:13:46.

desperation he had to do something quickly to try and bring back

:13:47.:13:48.

voters. Thank you both very much. I'll be back at the

:13:49.:13:50.

same time next week.

:13:51.:13:55.

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Former London mayor Ken Livingstone and former shadow chancellor Chris Leslie discuss Labour's electoral fortunes, and former chancellor Ken Clarke talks about rebelling over this week's Brexit vote. The Political Panel consists of Iain Martin of Reaction, Tom Newton Dunn of The Sun and Polly Toynbee of The Guardian.


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