29/01/2017 Sunday Politics Scotland


29/01/2017

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens of seven

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mainly Muslim countries sparks protests at several US airports.

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The President says "it's working out very nicely"

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And Sunday Politics Scotland is on earlier at 11.25,

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when Scottish Liberal Democrat leader

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Willie Rennie says he'll push it to an election if they don't get

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what they want on the Scottish Budget.

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what he makes of the travel ban and the Prime Minister's

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In London this week, the mayor, Sadiq Khan,

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has been coming under pressure to explain his fares freeze

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and why it doesn't apply to everybody.

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And with me, the best and brightest political

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panel in the business - Steve Richards, Julia

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They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

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It was soon after Theresa May left the White House on Friday that

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Donald Trump signed the executive order banning citizens from seven

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President Trump's 90-day ban covers Iran, Iraq,

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Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen and Syria, from

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where refugees are banned from until further notice.

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Donald Trump's executive order also imposes a complete ban

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on all refugees coming to the US for the next 120 days.

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Mr Trump said that the ban would keep radical Islamic terrorists out

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But the ban has sparked protests across the US,

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as people affected and already in the air were detained

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US laws have begun legal action to challenge the ban, which many

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At a press conference in Ankara, Turkey, Theresa May was asked

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about the refugee ban three times before giving this response...

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Well, the United States is responsible for the United States'

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The United Kingdom is responsible for the United Kingdom's policy

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on refugees, and our policy on refugees is to have a number

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of voluntary schemes to bring Syrian refugees into the country.

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Downing Street later issued a statement saying:

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This morning, the Treasury Minister, David Gauke, was asked why

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Theresa May had refused to condemn the travel ban at yesterday's

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The Prime Minister is not a shoot-from-the-hip

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She wants to see the evidence, she wants

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to understand precisely what the implications are.

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She'd been in a series of very lengthy meetings with

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President Erdogan, and she's someone who wants to see the briefing and

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understand it, and then will respond to that.

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I think there are times where, you know, there's always

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pressure to respond within a news cycle and so on.

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The important thing is, we are saying we disagree with it

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We're joined now from North London by the Conservative

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Should the Government in general and Theresa May in particular be more

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vocal in their criticism of Donald Trump's travel bans? Well, as David

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just said, it is obviously right that Theresa has now said this is an

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appropriate and not something we agree with in our Government, but I

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wish she had said something at the time, not least because it affects

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our own citizens. One of our own MPs, Nadhim, for example, because it

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is also a global crisis. She had clearly built an excellent with

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Donald Trump -- she had built an excellent relationship with him, but

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she could have been firmer. Mrs May hasn't said any word of criticism

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about the travel bans. She refused to say anything three times in

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Ankara, and it is merely an anonymous Downing Street

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spokesperson that has issued the subsequent mild criticism. We have

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not heard from the Prime Minister at all on this matter in terms of

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criticism. No, but the spokesperson will be speaking with her blessing,

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so it is clearly something she has acknowledged. As I said before, I

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wish she had said something at the time. The global climate at the

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moment is delicate and we need our leaders to work together to address

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things like the refugee crisis. Potentially, this plays into the

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hands of Daesh. It is absolutely not the right message. What would you

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like the Prime Minister to say? As with any new relationship, it is

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about testing the boundaries. They had clearly got on well, so she

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should have felt braver to say something there and then. I would

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have preferred her to say, for example, I need to talk to Donald

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Trump about this. It is not something I support and I want to

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understand why because I believe there is a better way to deal with

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the terrorist threat. I would have liked her to suggest that she would

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engage with him to do that. The president has instituted a 90 day

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temporary ban on people coming from seven mainly Muslim majority

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population countries. The seven were on President Obama's list of the

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biggest terrorist threats to the United States. Mr Trump wants this

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temporary ban until he puts tougher vetting procedures in place. What is

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wrong with that? Because it appeared to me that it wasn't thought through

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and it was affecting ordinary citizens and some British citizens.

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It can't be right that a president in that position of power can

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arbitrarily come up with executive powers like that. It has already

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been challenged by his own courts. So it is not the considered approach

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I want to see in a global leader. Who do you believe will be hurt by

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this, given that there can be exceptions on a case-by-case basis?

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I think potentially, our global reputation is going to be hurt by

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this. I have been to the refugee camps in Europe myself. There are

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desperate people trying to free persecution who will be hurt by

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this. We are trying to heal the wounds in this country not only

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because of Brexit. This is a time of coming together, not about saying it

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is located discriminatory against race and religion in this way. Do

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you believe that Mr Trump's state visit should go ahead? Well, he is

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the leader of America, so it does need to go ahead and we need to work

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with him. I believe Theresa has started in a positive manner was

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that she just needs to continue in that vein. If he comes to our

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country, he needs to respect the way we feel about things. But yes, he is

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the president, so he does need to come to the UK. There is some debate

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within Westminster as to where it is appropriate for him to speak to MPs,

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but it is right that he comes. But if he does come on a state visit,

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should he be granted what this country has always thought of as a

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great honour, which is a joint address to both Houses of

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Parliament? I haven't been an MP long enough to understand the

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protocol of where is the right location for him to do that, but I

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believe in the past, it has been the greatest leaders, when they have

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achieved great things globally, it is Westminster Hall. But there are a

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number of MPs saying that is not the most appropriate place and I am

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inclined to agree. You don't think he should be accorded the privilege

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of speaking to a joint session of Parliament? I think there are places

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where he can do that, but Westminster Hall is not yet the

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right place. Thank you for joining us.

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Steve, within 24 hours, we have seen the difficulty of becoming Donald

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Trump's best friend. On the one hand, it could have huge advantages,

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particularly for a Brexit Britain. On the other hand, if you are going

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to be his best friend, you don't have to give a running commentary on

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every major thing he does. Yeah. We have learned a bit about Theresa

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May, that when she has to produce a set piece speech which she has time

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to prepare, she can get it totally right and sometimes more than right.

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When she is faced with a fast-moving story, she is leaden footed and

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can't think quickly on her feet. We know, did she regret not saying

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more? Evidently she did, because we got a statement from the Downing

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Street spokesperson saying more. So she can't think quickly. She's going

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to have to think very quickly in response to some of the things he's

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going to be doing, because she will be asked about it all the time. It

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does highlight the wider danger that the assumption that the special

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relationship is always a safe and fertile place to be has been proven

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wrong before and I think it will be proven wrong big-time in this case.

:10:04.:10:08.

You're shaking your head. I don't see why we are responsible for

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American domestic policy. I am as appalled as the next person by what

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Donald Trump has done. He said he was going to do this, which was why

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I did not want Americans to vote for him. In fact, what he has

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implemented is much less than what he said he would do when he was

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campaigning. I have always felt that the campaigning Trump was the real

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Trump. But what he has done is actually constitutional. He has the

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executive power to issue this order. It is within the rules in terms of a

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class of aliens deemed to be a risk to the United States. It is a 90 day

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limited ban. The last president who did this was a Democrat president,

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President Carter. He did it in the aftermath of the Iranian crisis.

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Well, given the spate of terror attacks on American territory in

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recent years, you could argue that he meant well. I don't agree with

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Donald Trump. But have people from these countries that he has banned

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been involved in terrorist attacks? That is the absurdity. He has not

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included Egypt or Pakistan. But I don't remove everyone getting in

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such a state about President Carter. The reality is that it is a legal

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thing for him to do. I don't like it. But it is not my territory. It

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is illegal, because they have been given a right to remain by a judge

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in Brooklyn and another judging Alexandra. That is a different issue

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for people who have already gone through the vetting. I don't agree

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with this. However, I don't think it's reasonable to say that Theresa

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May, because she wants to do a deal with Donald Trump, I don't give is

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reasonable to say she have to agree with each of his policies. It is

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nonsense. But the issue, Janan, is not whether she needs to agree with

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him. The question is that she will be questioned about him all the time

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now. And although these are matters of domestic policy, the refugee

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policy is international. They speak to issues that affect Britain as

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well, and I would suggest that she will not get away with this

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anonymous statement from Downing Street. People will demand a she

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says something on the record. She would get away with it indefinitely.

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These situations will recur every time Donald Trump says or does

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something contentious. She will be pressed to this associate her

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administration from his. She will probably be in a better logistical

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situation to do so. She has spent a big chunk of the past 72 hours in

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the air. She flew from Washington to Ankara, than from Ankara to London.

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We don't have Air Force One, we don't have those frictionless

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communications with the ground. She would have been incommunicado for

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large periods of time when this story was breaking. That doesn't

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excuse the stiff response when she landed and issued a statement via

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Downing Street. But during that delay, she did have a plausible

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excuse. She has also got a much more tricky geopolitical situation than

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many other world leaders. She has to strike a favourable trade deal with

:13:25.:13:29.

the new US president. It is all very well people saying Justin Trudeau of

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Canada was much more vociferous in his criticism of Donald Trump. He is

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already in Nafta, he is not striking a new deal. For how long, we don't

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know. Exactly, he's trying to stay in Nafta, but he is in a less tricky

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situation than she is. Now, Theresa May's was the first

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foreign leader to meet President Trump and the visit

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was seen as quite a coup for the Prime Minister,

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keen for a new trading relationship with the United States

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in the wake of Brexit. The Prime Minister congratulated

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the new US President for his "stunning election victory"

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but might not have intended to be pictured walking

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through the White House with him That picture of Donald Trump helping

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Theresa May down the steps through the White House colonnade

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will be the enduring image Mrs May said the President

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told her he was "100% behind Nato". And for her part, the Prime Minister

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said she would work hard to make sure other Nato countries

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increased their defence spending It's been announced

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that there will be a new trade negotiation agreement,

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with high-level talks The hope is that this will lead

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to a new trade deal between the two countries as soon as

:14:36.:14:40.

Britain leaves the EU. Mr Trump said he believed "Brexit's

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going to be a wonderful thing". On Russia, Theresa May made clear

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to Donald Trump her continued

:14:49.:14:50.

backing for sanctions. And following the controversy over

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the President's support for torture, Mr Trump said he would defer

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to his Secretary of Defense, General James Mattis, who argues

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that the practice doesn't work. And I'm joined now by the former

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Ukip leader, Nigel Farage. Do you agree with Mr Trump's

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decision to ban Syrian refugees indefinitely from entering the

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United States? I agree with the concept of democracy, a point which

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appears to be missed by almost all commentators including the BBC. He

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was elected to get tough and say he would do everything in his power to

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protect America from infiltration by ISIS terrorists. There are seven

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countries on that list. He's entitled to do this. I didn't ask if

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he was entitled, I asked if agree with it. I do, because if you just

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look at what's happening in France and Germany, if you look at Angela

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Merkel's policy which was to allow virtually anyone in from anywhere,

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look what it led to. You said in 2013 there's a responsibility on all

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of us in the free west to help some of those people fleeing Syria

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literally in fear of their lives. That's the Christian community in

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virtually all of those country, it is almost too late because many have

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been wiped out but if you are looking for a genuine definition of

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a refugee, going back to 1951, it is someone in direct fear of

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persecution of their life because of their race, religion or beliefs. But

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you didn't talk about only Christians, and in January 2014 you

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said, I seem to recall it was Ukip who started the debate on allowing

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Syrian refugees, you seem to be in favour of allowing proper refugees

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into this country. If they can be defined. Mr Trump won't let any in.

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He is running American policy, not British policy. Since I made those

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comments, we have had the Angela Merkel madness and I think Trump's

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policy in many ways has been shaped by what Angela Merkel did. He is

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fully entitled to do this, and as far as we are concerned in this

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country, I would like to see extreme vetting. Since 9/11 can you name any

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terrorist event in the United States that has involved refugees that have

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been allowed into the country? No, in fact the terrorist events have

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been US citizens radicalised. When you have a problem already, why

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would you wish to add to it? I would remind you that of the eight people

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that committed those atrocities in Paris, five of them had got into

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Europe posing as refugees so there is an issue here. But perhaps not

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for America because it has the most rigorous and lengthy screening

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process in the world, especially for Syrians. You have to register with

:17:59.:18:03.

the UN agency for refugees, which then recommend certain names to

:18:04.:18:07.

America, they then go through biometric screening, database

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screening, intelligent screenings, including four separate intelligence

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agencies screening you. How more rigorous would you want it to be? It

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is much more rigorous than we are or the rest of Europe. This is why we

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have elections, so voters can make choices and they voted for Donald

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Trump to become president and he said he would put bans in place and

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then move towards extreme vetting. As far as the Syrians are concerned

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he's made that decision but that's what he was voted in fourth. Since

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you know him, you have met him, you are confident of his, I'm testing

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you on the logic of it. Not that he's democratically elected, I'm not

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asking about that, I'm trying to get the case, particularly since if you

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take the seven countries of which the ban applies for 19 days, again,

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of these seven countries, its citizens have not been involved in

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terrorist attacks in the United States. It would be a mistake to say

:19:15.:19:19.

it is just Muslim countries because the biggest Muslim countries in the

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world have not been included in this. The point is they have made

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this assessment, they bought themselves 90 days to think about

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the policy. This is exactly what Trump's voters would have wanted him

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to do. You said the President's rhetoric on immigrants made even you

:19:38.:19:42.

feel very uncomfortable. Because he started by saying there was a total

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ban, then amended it to say there would be vetting. My guess is that

:19:47.:19:51.

what he will do is try to genuinely help Syrian people and he will be

:19:52.:19:55.

talking about the creation of some safe zones. Let's see. He hasn't. We

:19:56.:20:02.

will see. I suspect something like that is coming down the trap. What

:20:03.:20:08.

advice did you give to the president and his advisers ahead of Theresa

:20:09.:20:14.

May's visit? That I wanted us to talk about trade and to give the

:20:15.:20:18.

Prime Minister the impression that actually... When she has been

:20:19.:20:22.

surrounded by her whole career by civil servants and politicians who

:20:23.:20:27.

say that everything takes five years or seven years or ten years, to make

:20:28.:20:31.

it clear to the Prime Minister that if there is will, these things can

:20:32.:20:35.

be done quickly. Isn't there a danger of a British Prime Minister

:20:36.:20:39.

who has to deal with the president of the United States, to Ally

:20:40.:20:45.

herself so closely with such an unpredictable, controversial

:20:46.:20:50.

president, banning Muslims in certain ways and refugees, building

:20:51.:20:54.

a war with Mexico, threatening trade was with other countries, thinking

:20:55.:20:58.

of ending sanctions against Russia? I missing something here, what is

:20:59.:21:03.

controversial about defending the Mexican border? Bill Clinton spoke

:21:04.:21:08.

in tough terms, George Bush built six miles of fence, and because it

:21:09.:21:13.

is Donald Trump there is uproar. So you think there is no risk of the

:21:14.:21:16.

British by Minister being the best friend of this type of president? I

:21:17.:21:20.

think there is no risk in putting together a trade deal and no risk in

:21:21.:21:24.

her being the bridge between America and the rest of Nato to say to Nato

:21:25.:21:29.

members if you don't pay your 2% he is serious so on those things there

:21:30.:21:35.

is no risk at all. It was clear from her Lancaster house speech that the

:21:36.:21:39.

Brexiteers in the Government had won pretty much every argument in terms

:21:40.:21:43.

of negotiations to come out. What you want from her? She was very good

:21:44.:21:51.

as Home Secretary, Tory party conferences, the Tory press saying

:21:52.:21:54.

this was the new Thatcher and she failed. She even failed to control

:21:55.:21:59.

immigration from outside the European Union so yes, it was a good

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speech and for many on the Eurosceptic side of the argument, I

:22:04.:22:07.

could scarcely believe that a British Prime Minister was saying

:22:08.:22:10.

things which I had been roundly abused and vilified for. But I have

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a feeling we may be in for a very frustrating 2017. The mood as I can

:22:18.:22:20.

see it in Brussels is that negotiating with Britain is not a

:22:21.:22:25.

priority, they are far more worried about Dutch elections, French

:22:26.:22:28.

elections, German elections and possibly even Italian elections. I

:22:29.:22:34.

worry that by the end of this year we may not have made much progress

:22:35.:22:37.

and that's why the Trump visit suddenly things brings into focus.

:22:38.:22:43.

What if by the middle of June, for argument 's sake, the Americans say

:22:44.:22:48.

OK we reached this position with the British, compromised on the tough

:22:49.:22:51.

stuff, food standards and things like that, we are ready to sign a

:22:52.:22:58.

deal now, and Theresa May is to say actually Mr Juncker says I cannot

:22:59.:23:01.

sign this until we leave. What will they do? They cannot throw us out,

:23:02.:23:07.

we are living anyway. But everybody agrees you can talk about the deal,

:23:08.:23:11.

maybe even do the heads of agreement but you cannot sign a treaty until

:23:12.:23:16.

we have left the EU. Let me predict that at the end of this year we will

:23:17.:23:20.

find a European Union who frankly don't want to talk to us and

:23:21.:23:24.

countries around the world that want to get on and do things and that

:23:25.:23:28.

will be the big tension for Mrs May over the course of this year. If the

:23:29.:23:33.

Prime Minister is giving you everything you want on Brexit, you

:23:34.:23:36.

agree that she's trying to get from your point of view the right things.

:23:37.:23:40.

If she delivers on that and get Brexit on the terms of which you

:23:41.:23:45.

approve, what's the point of Ukip? You could argue that about any

:23:46.:23:50.

political party. If we have achieved the goal that we set out to achieve,

:23:51.:23:56.

there are right now out there 4 million people who are Ukip

:23:57.:23:59.

loyalists. They are delighted that by voting Ukip we got a referendum,

:24:00.:24:04.

they will be even happier if they seek us leave the European Union and

:24:05.:24:09.

I think there is still a gap in British politics for a party that

:24:10.:24:13.

says it as it sees it, is not afraid by political correctness and is seen

:24:14.:24:16.

to be on the side of the little people, and that's why, with the

:24:17.:24:21.

Labour Party is fundamentally split, and it really is totally split over

:24:22.:24:26.

this European question, I think Ukip is in good shape. That proposition

:24:27.:24:31.

will be put to test at the Stoke Central by-election, one of Ukip's

:24:32.:24:36.

best prospects in the country. Some people call it the capital of

:24:37.:24:39.

Brexit. Labour is in chaos over Article 50, is picked a candidate to

:24:40.:24:46.

fight Stoke Central who has described Brexit is a pile of notes.

:24:47.:24:55.

If your successor, Paul Nuttall, cannot win the Stoke by-election,

:24:56.:24:59.

there's not much hope for you, is there? I think he will. I've always

:25:00.:25:03.

been told don't make predictions but I think he will win. If you doesn't

:25:04.:25:09.

it will be tough, we will still have our 4 million loyalists, but if it

:25:10.:25:15.

does we can actually see Labour are beatable in their heartlands and

:25:16.:25:19.

Ukip will be off to the second big stage. Nigel Farage, thank you for

:25:20.:25:21.

being with us. It's just gone 11.25,

:25:22.:25:23.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. Good morning and welcome

:25:24.:25:35.

to Sunday Politics Scotland. The smallest party in

:25:36.:25:36.

the Scottish Parliament could offer the Scottish Government the only

:25:37.:25:40.

chance to pass its Budget. If they can't reach a deal,

:25:41.:25:42.

there could be a snap election. If I do not get what our voters

:25:43.:25:46.

want, then there will be no deal. Also, after the collapse

:25:47.:25:49.

of the Airdrie Savings Bank, we'll ask what next for local

:25:50.:25:52.

banking in Scotland? And we look back at the career

:25:53.:25:54.

of Tam Dalyell, one of Scotland's most respected MPs,

:25:55.:25:58.

who died on Thursday. Well, more talks will be held

:25:59.:26:02.

on the Scottish Budget next week. For now, there are few signs

:26:03.:26:05.

of a compromise deal. Two parties are seen

:26:06.:26:08.

as likely to do a deal, are insisting on tax rises the SNP

:26:09.:26:15.

are not prepared to contemplate. Let me get your reaction to the

:26:16.:26:37.

story of this woman, the passport holding vet from a scroll and, who

:26:38.:26:45.

is stuck in Costa Rica because of dull troubles-macro executive orders

:26:46.:26:50.

on immigration. I think for those who wish hopes that Trump may not be

:26:51.:26:57.

governing in the way he campaigned for Abbey face in the harsh reality

:26:58.:27:00.

this morning. This is an individual who is now a threat to anybody and

:27:01.:27:05.

is in fact a compassionate and caring individual who has been

:27:06.:27:08.

prevented from returning home through the United States. She's not

:27:09.:27:12.

alone. There are thousands across the world similar to her and I think

:27:13.:27:18.

it shows what a harsh, cruel leader Donald Trump has become. The

:27:19.:27:26.

Scottish Budget. The SNP need the support of someone, most

:27:27.:27:31.

realistically, you or the Greens to get that Budget through. You close

:27:32.:27:36.

to agreement? We've had some constructive talks recently, but I

:27:37.:27:41.

have to say, the gap is growing wider and it's not looking good for

:27:42.:27:48.

this week. Why'd you say that? Let me explain why. Since last May's

:27:49.:28:00.

elections with a Brexit and it shows Scottish education is slipping

:28:01.:28:03.

further down the international rankings. Without stagnating growth

:28:04.:28:07.

and unemployment has gone up. The child health report came last week

:28:08.:28:12.

and showed that Government action is required, more Government action, to

:28:13.:28:16.

deal with the problems facing our country, so the case we put forward

:28:17.:28:20.

last May which was a modest 1p on income tax to invest in education to

:28:21.:28:25.

get back up to being the best in the world again, actually, I think it is

:28:26.:28:28.

now needed rather than less and that is why I think the gap has grown

:28:29.:28:32.

since the election last year. Butcher would not insist on a rising

:28:33.:28:36.

taxation before you'd agreed to the Budget, would you? What we've put

:28:37.:28:43.

forward as a package, a compromise package, which is less the more we

:28:44.:28:47.

asked for in our manifesto or ?400 million. That was Foyle Cup big

:28:48.:28:54.

ticket items. One for mental health services, roughly ?200 million for

:28:55.:29:00.

that, then another ?160 million for colleges and for schools to get

:29:01.:29:04.

Scottish education back up. Both of those would help the economy,

:29:05.:29:08.

because it would invest in the talents and skills and health of

:29:09.:29:12.

people. That would help as worthy challengers that we face. It is much

:29:13.:29:17.

less than what we'd asked for, but certainly something that we believe

:29:18.:29:21.

the Scottish Government should implement. I want to know about this

:29:22.:29:28.

issue of tax rises. Explain to viewers, there will be two separate

:29:29.:29:32.

votes on tax rises or falls and one on the spending proposals, weren't

:29:33.:29:36.

they? The Greens seem to be digging in their heels and wants tax rises

:29:37.:29:40.

and weren't back the Budget unless they get that. You're not saying

:29:41.:29:46.

that, are you? We are saying that we do believe we need to increase the

:29:47.:29:50.

size of the cake, not just cut up the cake. Began making as a

:29:51.:29:57.

conditional support on a Budget? We've set out what our spending

:29:58.:30:00.

priorities should be and how we believe we should pay for it. If the

:30:01.:30:05.

SNP do not want to increase taxation will have to find a money from

:30:06.:30:09.

somewhere else that we believe would not impact on our priorities, which

:30:10.:30:14.

is to invest in young people and in the economy. Burglar Bill sign up

:30:15.:30:22.

money? If taxes aren't going to go up, then rationally, if you want

:30:23.:30:26.

money spent elsewhere, but can they could to provide that? That's a good

:30:27.:30:33.

question. That is why we set out we should invest a modest penny on

:30:34.:30:38.

income tax. That is why we set out our priority. But if the SNP believe

:30:39.:30:42.

they can get it elsewhere, let them explain it. So far they haven't.

:30:43.:30:52.

Half orgy push this? -- how far should you push this? If the Greens

:30:53.:30:59.

fall, then they have to be another snap election. Would you even

:31:00.:31:02.

countenance that? What would Craig think? Is not looking good. If

:31:03.:31:14.

anything, reaction I'm getting from people on the doorsteps and people

:31:15.:31:17.

contacting me through e-mail and other means, they are saying, yes,

:31:18.:31:21.

we should an election, because we like to get it through the SNP

:31:22.:31:27.

Government. -- get bored of the SNP Government. There may be people out

:31:28.:31:34.

there saying that, I'm not fearful of an election but I don't want one

:31:35.:31:38.

because I do not think he would be in the interest of the country was

:31:39.:31:41.

trying to deal with Brexit and also many other issues around the economy

:31:42.:31:47.

and education. I don't want war. But people do not seem to feel honoured.

:31:48.:31:52.

If you don't get what you want and there is room for negotiation, if

:31:53.:31:55.

you don't get a substantial amount of what she wants, would you,

:31:56.:31:58.

despite what you said, be prepared to push this so that there was

:31:59.:32:03.

another election? If we don't get what our voters backed us for in

:32:04.:32:09.

May, then I'm afraid we just have to walk away. We have learned and I'm

:32:10.:32:17.

sure you've criticised me before and commented us on having agreed to

:32:18.:32:21.

something we didn't say was a priority in our manifesto, I'm not

:32:22.:32:24.

going to give up too easily on this, I want to make sure our voters get

:32:25.:32:29.

what they wanted last May. I have a duty just as the SNP have a duty to

:32:30.:32:33.

represent their voters. If they don't have a majority and they need

:32:34.:32:37.

our support, they will have to move. How would you reply to people who

:32:38.:32:43.

say, oh, this is brinkmanship. Capitulation is the Lib Dems middle

:32:44.:32:50.

name. Of course he will cave in, he's just saying this for the

:32:51.:32:58.

effect. Just wait and see. We've had constructive and reasonable and

:32:59.:33:01.

measured talks and we've not made enough progress. If I do not get

:33:02.:33:06.

what our voters want, then I'm afraid there will be no deal. I'm

:33:07.:33:11.

not quite sure why you are so against an election. There's an

:33:12.:33:15.

imbalance. Let's say there was an honour and the SNP swept all before

:33:16.:33:19.

it. In terms of another referendum, the situation would be as now,

:33:20.:33:22.

because the Greens have made clear they were by the SNP in the

:33:23.:33:26.

referendum whenever they want one. On the other hand, if the SNP lost

:33:27.:33:31.

seats, the referendum will be off the agenda until at least the 20s. I

:33:32.:33:36.

would offer you might be keen the idea of another election? Don't get

:33:37.:33:41.

me wrong, I love elections. Even as a Lib Dem?! Oh, I absolutely love

:33:42.:33:50.

them! I don't know if you could tell from last May's elections, but I

:33:51.:33:54.

love the campaign that we were running. That was a Freudian slip.

:33:55.:34:01.

Go on anyway. No, we enjoy campaigns. And if you look at what

:34:02.:34:07.

we managed to do... But the point I was making was the prize for you and

:34:08.:34:15.

Labour and the Conservatives of another Scottish election way to

:34:16.:34:18.

balance is any advantage of not having one. Because you could be

:34:19.:34:23.

potentially the idea of another independence referendum off the

:34:24.:34:27.

agenda indefinitely. That's possible. But the real challenge

:34:28.:34:35.

we've got is an audience with the education challenges and Brexit and

:34:36.:34:37.

it wouldn't be right unless we can avoid it to have an election. I

:34:38.:34:42.

think it is important to do with the big challenges the country faces and

:34:43.:34:47.

that's why we want the SNP to be more reasonable than they've been so

:34:48.:34:52.

far. Message to them is we were pushing toward an election unless

:34:53.:34:56.

you give us a substantial amount of what we want? Yes. Willie Rennie,

:34:57.:35:00.

thank you. We've learned in the past couple

:35:01.:35:01.

of weeks that Scotland's last independant bank,

:35:02.:35:04.

the Airdrie Savings Bank Its headquarters and two

:35:05.:35:05.

remaining branches in Bellshill and

:35:06.:35:08.

Coatbridge are to shut. That's despite the bank insisting

:35:09.:35:10.

it is financially strong. It's thought pressure from customers

:35:11.:35:12.

for more complex services, and the demands of regulators used

:35:13.:35:14.

to dealing with much bigger But the news has lead

:35:15.:35:17.

to renewed calls for new, So, what do you think

:35:18.:35:23.

of the prospect of council banks? The Reverend Henry Duncan plays

:35:24.:35:40.

important, if unexpected part in our story. It was dramatised last year

:35:41.:35:47.

in the parish where he served. 1810, I opened the bank. The first savings

:35:48.:35:58.

bank in the world. It was a local bank, for local people. I've got one

:35:59.:36:04.

shilling and 3/2 pennies. Is that enough to open an account? Of

:36:05.:36:08.

course, but you'll have deposit regular. His motivation was to help

:36:09.:36:14.

people to help themselves. Banking is only something for the rich. You

:36:15.:36:19.

had to have a certain amount to be able to make your initial deposit

:36:20.:36:24.

and it was really out with means of ordinary working folk. That was back

:36:25.:36:27.

in 1810 and it started here in this building. It's a tradition that

:36:28.:36:35.

lasted in Scotland until this month. When the final survivor, the Airdrie

:36:36.:36:37.

Savings Bank announced it would be closing and that prompted a renewed

:36:38.:36:42.

call for new alternatives to high street banks. But why? On both sides

:36:43.:36:47.

in terms of providing to the economy and the funds and loans that small

:36:48.:36:51.

businesses need and meeting the needs of customers, the big banks

:36:52.:36:55.

are not doing what they should. In Scotland, it is becoming

:36:56.:37:00.

increasingly the case that it is a duopoly, whereby RBS and the Bank of

:37:01.:37:04.

Scotland dominate 70% of the Scottish market and there's a lot --

:37:05.:37:09.

not the competition for loans that puts pressure on banks to bring down

:37:10.:37:14.

rates that you need for a healthy, thriving unsustainable financial

:37:15.:37:19.

sector. After the global financial crutch, there was much talk of the

:37:20.:37:25.

need for new, simple, boring banks. But frankly, nothing much has

:37:26.:37:29.

happened. Westminster has really failed in that sense to diversify

:37:30.:37:34.

banking. It said after the crisis of 2008, this was an important part of

:37:35.:37:38.

moving the sector forward and making it more resilient in future crises

:37:39.:37:42.

and it has failed to do that. It means if there another crisis,

:37:43.:37:46.

especially in Scotland, we are very vulnerable to the fact that two

:37:47.:37:54.

banks dominate the majority of the vulnerable to the fact that two

:37:55.:37:57.

sector. But for the past 50 years, there has been an alternative in

:37:58.:38:01.

Scotland. Credit unions. But how can it survive and thrive when the

:38:02.:38:03.

Airdrie Savings Bank was forced to close? We have slightly different

:38:04.:38:10.

regulation from a banking credit unions. That has been part of the

:38:11.:38:14.

advocacy we have made on behalf of credit unions. The Financial Conduct

:38:15.:38:19.

Authority recognise that we are different, structure different, the

:38:20.:38:23.

business model is different, the risks are different. The risk they

:38:24.:38:26.

would pose to the economy if they failed is different from the large

:38:27.:38:30.

banks we've seen in trouble over the last decade. Credit unions have a

:38:31.:38:34.

regulatory framework which is important for consumer protection,

:38:35.:38:37.

but vitally, it is proportionate and we must keep it that way. But a new

:38:38.:38:43.

call for a new network of local banks across Scotland. Set up and

:38:44.:38:48.

run by councils. Though perhaps don't have the skills now to do it,

:38:49.:38:55.

that's where you bring in people. I mean, the Scottish universities are

:38:56.:38:58.

training people in the skills, so we need to bring in an diversify. A lot

:38:59.:39:04.

of people don't trust the council to empty bins. We measured with a watch

:39:05.:39:07.

list them with our mortgages? That's a good point. What should we be

:39:08.:39:16.

looking at is re-engaging people with what local Government could be

:39:17.:39:19.

and how it could change and adapt and be much more useful for people

:39:20.:39:27.

in the local community. Your savings are safe, secure and guaranteed!

:39:28.:39:33.

Council banking. I wonder what the Reverend Henry Duncan would have

:39:34.:39:34.

made of that. Now it's time to look back

:39:35.:39:36.

at the past week and what's coming With me this week are

:39:37.:39:39.

the Investigations editor at the Sunday Herald,

:39:40.:39:46.

Paul Hutcheon, and Lynsey Bews, who's Scottish Political reporter

:39:47.:39:48.

for the Press Association. Just before we talk, a vet living in

:39:49.:40:04.

Glasgow says President Ron's ban has left stranded in Costa Rica.

:40:05.:40:06.

Hamaseh Tayari, who holds an Iranian passport,

:40:07.:40:07.

was due to fly back to the UK, via New York, yesterday,

:40:08.:40:10.

but she said her transit visa had now been revoked.

:40:11.:40:13.

She told us how she was feeling last night.

:40:14.:40:19.

We arrived at 5am I wanted to check in for flights to New York which

:40:20.:40:30.

would take us to Glasgow when I realised the people at the check-in

:40:31.:40:36.

told me it was not allowed. I was not allowed to take the blame

:40:37.:40:47.

because of the new rules. I never expected it to happen to me just

:40:48.:40:57.

coming home. I was really upset. I'm angry and upset. And a little bit

:40:58.:41:11.

afraid. Quite a good example of an expected consequence of that

:41:12.:41:17.

policies can have? Yes. She is clearly very disturbed and very

:41:18.:41:21.

distressed by the circumstances she is facing, as I am sure are a lot of

:41:22.:41:24.

people who are trying to transit through America all who are living

:41:25.:41:31.

there are unsure if they can get back in again. One can Donald

:41:32.:41:35.

Trump's trying to do, but some woman who lives in Scotland who is on

:41:36.:41:37.

holiday in Costa Rica can't come who lives in Scotland who is on

:41:38.:41:42.

home by the boot... Just to bring things up today, she is now

:41:43.:41:46.

apparently travelling back on Tuesday via Madrid. I think money

:41:47.:41:51.

has been raised overnight to pay for the expenses. You could say this is

:41:52.:41:54.

what Trump is trying to achieve. But when you look at what he is doing

:41:55.:41:58.

and the countries he's decided to impose this blanket ban on, what he

:41:59.:42:04.

is trying to achieve is eradicate extreme terrorism in America and

:42:05.:42:08.

abroad doesn't actually make any sense. There was another classic

:42:09.:42:14.

example of unforeseen consequences. On Andrew Marr's show, a

:42:15.:42:21.

Conservative MP said he could not now travel to the United States. He

:42:22.:42:25.

says he hasn't discriminated against now travel to the United States. He

:42:26.:42:28.

in this way since he was a child. One imagines they were not sitting

:42:29.:42:33.

in the White House saying what could we do to ban Tory MPs from coming to

:42:34.:42:38.

the US? That's right. I think you now seen human face behind Donald

:42:39.:42:46.

Trump's policy. By with those who been caught up in this legal

:42:47.:42:51.

nightmare. We don't want to be too despondent, there have been signs of

:42:52.:42:55.

hope in the last few hours, particularly legal judgment handed

:42:56.:42:59.

down by US judge us. I would say that while we've seen the dark side

:43:00.:43:04.

of Donald Trump's character in the last 24 hours, one of the beauties

:43:05.:43:07.

of the US system is that checks and balances are that help individuals

:43:08.:43:11.

against the weight of the state. Baton the week? -- but are they not

:43:12.:43:24.

week? The President can't just do whatever he wants. There is a

:43:25.:43:29.

constitution there. I wonder if this is also him trying to say, look, I

:43:30.:43:34.

was elected to do this and I'm going to do it. With Mexico, OK, they

:43:35.:43:38.

cancelled the president of Mexico's to do it. With Mexico, OK, they

:43:39.:43:43.

visit. The behind-the-scenes, either in the Americans are Mexicans might

:43:44.:43:48.

be prepared to talk. We've seen the series of executive orders being

:43:49.:43:52.

signed off by Trump as it tries to assert his authority as president

:43:53.:43:57.

and make his mark. There are checks within that system, however, I think

:43:58.:44:04.

Willie Rennie in your interview earlier made the point that if

:44:05.:44:07.

people for that was just campaign Trump and it wasn't going to be

:44:08.:44:13.

president Trump, they were wrong. Tam Dalyell died this week. The

:44:14.:44:19.

question is that -- that is always asked is will we see his like again?

:44:20.:44:24.

Is relevant, because he was a thorn in the side of the Establishment,

:44:25.:44:26.

even though he came from the establishment. Most politicians are

:44:27.:44:34.

unremarkable people, faceless drones who take the work and don't really

:44:35.:44:39.

say anything that upsets their own political party. Tam Dalyell, like

:44:40.:44:44.

Margaret Macdonald, was a rare breed. He doggedly pursued his own

:44:45.:44:51.

causes without really taking... Who is left? Dennis Skinner? Outcome is

:44:52.:44:59.

still quite partisan label. Not an independent figure. Tam Dalyell

:45:00.:45:06.

really annoyed successive Labour prime ministers. He pursued his

:45:07.:45:14.

causes and similar issues. I don't see anyone in that mould. Either in

:45:15.:45:17.

the Scottish Parliament or at Westminster to be honest. It is rare

:45:18.:45:25.

to come across like that. Would you agree the loss of Tam Dalyell is the

:45:26.:45:31.

loss of something that he stood for? Yes, he really didn't care and said

:45:32.:45:36.

loss of something that he stood for? Tony Blair was the worst Prime

:45:37.:45:38.

Minister he'd ever see that that was somewhat from his own party. There

:45:39.:45:43.

was never like that at Holyrood and Westminster that springs to mind.

:45:44.:45:46.

You would struggle on the backbenchers to find anyone willing

:45:47.:45:49.

to speak out against the party at Holyrood. Can you imagine is an

:45:50.:45:57.

Nicola Sturgeon was the worst leader? Frankly, no. As in the whip

:45:58.:46:07.

would be withdrawn and he would be out the door. I think political

:46:08.:46:12.

parties low politicians who show up, read out the preprepared lines

:46:13.:46:17.

they've been given. But there was a tolerance of Tam Dalyell, and

:46:18.:46:22.

perhaps that is changing. To be fair to politicians, if there were like

:46:23.:46:25.

that, it would be total chaos. There was a willingness to have a few

:46:26.:46:30.

figures like that. Yes, he became almost untouchable. There would been

:46:31.:46:35.

an outcry, locally, in his party if Labour had tried to him. In that

:46:36.:46:43.

sense, I think he earned his reputation and he will be sadly

:46:44.:46:48.

missed. Scottish Budget? There doesn't seem to be a deal. It is

:46:49.:46:57.

brinkmanship? Yes, I it is. I think it will be signed off. Will be

:46:58.:47:06.

Willie Rennie or Patrick Harvie? Willie Rennie, because he is asking

:47:07.:47:10.

for concessions on spending and not tax. The Greens have said they

:47:11.:47:14.

wanted concessions on tykes and the SNP are not prepared to go there.

:47:15.:47:21.

If you are Willie Rennie, do you want to be seen as the... Is that

:47:22.:47:32.

what you want to be? I have a different view. Speaking to Lib

:47:33.:47:36.

greens today, on face value this is about pounds and pence, there's the

:47:37.:47:40.

Constitution salary lurking in the background. From a Lib Dem

:47:41.:47:43.

perspective, they are worried about being seen as the party that rose to

:47:44.:47:50.

the rescue of a party who second independence referendum. Similarly,

:47:51.:47:53.

with the Greens, they will feel pressure not to bring down a

:47:54.:47:58.

Government that wants a second independence referendum, a view they

:47:59.:48:02.

share. On balance, the Greens are probably more likely to do a deal

:48:03.:48:07.

with the Lib Dems. Bedelia thing they would have to give up the

:48:08.:48:12.

demands on tax? That's where they are seen as less likely at the

:48:13.:48:18.

moment. The current talks between the Greens and the SNP are

:48:19.:48:21.

difficult, but the deal is doable. The sticking point is a income tax.

:48:22.:48:29.

I've heard there's a compromise on the table. Not entirely sure about

:48:30.:48:35.

the details. I think the Greens have moved a little. Yes, no, possible?

:48:36.:48:45.

Anything is possible. That is all from us.

:48:46.:48:46.

I'll be back at the usual time of 11.35 next week.

:48:47.:48:49.