26/02/2017 Sunday Politics Scotland


26/02/2017

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer are joined by Kezia Dugdale, Patrick O'Flynn, Swedish MP Laila Naraghi and Douglas Murray of the Henry Jackson Society.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 26/02/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:42.:00:47.

Theresa May still has plenty on her plate,

:00:48.:00:48.

not least a battle over Brexit in the Lords.

:00:49.:00:50.

But after Thursday's by-election win in Copeland,

:00:51.:00:51.

the Prime Minister looks stronger than ever.

:00:52.:00:53.

Jeremy Corbyn's Labour saw off Ukip in this week's other by-election,

:00:54.:00:56.

but losing to the Tories in a heartland seat leaves the party

:00:57.:00:58.

The leader of Scottish Labour joins me live.

:00:59.:01:08.

You look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden!

:01:09.:01:14.

And Donald Trump may have been mocked for talking about the impact

:01:15.:01:17.

of migration on Sweden, but after riots in Stockholm this

:01:18.:01:19.

week, did the US president have the last laugh?

:01:20.:01:25.

And coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland:

:01:26.:01:27.

More from the Scottish Labour conference.

:01:28.:01:28.

And are whole life prison terms needed in Scotland?

:01:29.:01:30.

authorities be enough to alleviate the crisis in social care?

:01:31.:01:39.

And joining me for all of that, three journalists who I'm pleased

:01:40.:01:42.

to say have so far not been banned from the White House.

:01:43.:01:50.

I've tried banning them from this show repeatedly,

:01:51.:01:54.

but somehow they just keep getting past BBC security - it's Sam Coates,

:01:55.:01:57.

We have had two crucial by-elections, the results last

:01:58.:02:07.

Thursday night. It's now Sunday morning, where do they believe

:02:08.:02:12.

British politics? I think it leaves British politics looking as if it

:02:13.:02:16.

may go ahead without Ukip is a strong and robust force. It is

:02:17.:02:21.

difficult to see from where we are now how Ukip rebuilds into a

:02:22.:02:26.

credible vote winning operation. I think it looks unprofessional, the

:02:27.:02:31.

campaign they fought in Stoke was clearly winnable because the margin

:02:32.:02:35.

with which Labour held onto that seat was not an impressive one but

:02:36.:02:39.

they put forward arguably the wrong candidate, it was messy and it's

:02:40.:02:43.

hard to see where they go from here, particularly with the money problems

:02:44.:02:47.

they have and even Nigel Farage saying he's fed up of the party. If

:02:48.:02:53.

Isabel is right, if Ukip is no longer a major factor, you look at

:02:54.:03:00.

the state of Labour and the Lib Dems coming from a long way behind

:03:01.:03:04.

despite their local government by-election successes, Tories never

:03:05.:03:09.

more dominant. I think Theresa May is in a fascinating situation. She's

:03:10.:03:13.

the most powerful Prime Minister of modern times for now because she

:03:14.:03:19.

faces no confident, formidable opposition. Unlike Margaret Thatcher

:03:20.:03:23.

who in the 1980s, although she won landslides in the end, often looked

:03:24.:03:28.

like she was in trouble. She was inferred quite often in the build-up

:03:29.:03:34.

to the election. David Owen, Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams. And quite

:03:35.:03:41.

often she was worried. At the moment Theresa May faces no formidable UK

:03:42.:03:46.

opposition. However, she is both strong and fragile because her

:03:47.:03:50.

agenda is Brexit, which I still think many have not got to grips

:03:51.:03:54.

with in terms of how complex and training and difficult it will be

:03:55.:04:00.

for her. Thatcher faced no equivalent to Brexit so she is both

:04:01.:04:05.

strong, formidably strong because of the wider UK political context, and

:04:06.:04:09.

very fragile. It is just when you think you have never been more

:04:10.:04:13.

dominant you are actually at the most dangerous, what can possibly go

:04:14.:04:19.

wrong? I think that the money of her MPs they haven't begun to think

:04:20.:04:22.

through the practicalities of Brexit and she does have a working majority

:04:23.:04:27.

of about 17 in the House of Commons so at any point she could be put

:04:28.:04:30.

under pressure from really opposition these days is done by the

:04:31.:04:34.

two wins inside the Conservative Party, either the 15 Europhiles or

:04:35.:04:41.

the bigger group of about 60 Brexiteers who have continued to

:04:42.:04:44.

operate as a united and disciplined force within the Conservative Party

:04:45.:04:49.

to get their agenda on the table. Either of those wings could be

:04:50.:04:52.

disappointed at any point in the next three and a half years and that

:04:53.:04:56.

would put her under pressure. I wouldn't completely rule out Ukip

:04:57.:05:02.

coming back. The reason Ukip lost in Stoke I think it's because at the

:05:03.:05:06.

moment Theresa May is delivering pretty much everything Ukip figures

:05:07.:05:13.

might want to see. We might find the phrase Brexit means Brexit quite

:05:14.:05:15.

anodyne but I think she is convincing people she will press

:05:16.:05:19.

ahead with their agenda and deliver the leave vote that people buy a

:05:20.:05:25.

slim majority voted for. Should that change, should there be talk of

:05:26.:05:29.

transition periods, shut the migration settlement not make people

:05:30.:05:33.

happy, then I think Ukip risks charging back up the centre ground

:05:34.:05:37.

and causing more problems in future. That could be a two year gap in

:05:38.:05:42.

which Ukip would have to survive. As I said, Ukip is on our agenda for

:05:43.:05:45.

today. Thursday was a big night

:05:46.:05:46.

for political obsessives like us, with not one but two

:05:47.:05:48.

significant by-elections, Ellie braved the wind and rain

:05:49.:05:53.

to bring you this report. The clouds had gathered,

:05:54.:06:01.

the winds blew at gale force. Was a change in the air, or just

:06:02.:06:06.

a weather system called Doris? Voters in Stoke-on-Trent

:06:07.:06:10.

were about to find out. It's here, a sports hall

:06:11.:06:13.

on a Thursday night that the country's media reckon

:06:14.:06:17.

is the true eye of the storm. Would Labour suffer a lightning

:06:18.:06:23.

strike to its very heart, or would the Ukip threat proved

:06:24.:06:26.

to be a damp squib? Everybody seems to think the result

:06:27.:06:28.

in Stoke-on-Trent would be close, just as they did 150-odd miles away

:06:29.:06:31.

in Copeland, where the Tories are counting on stealing another

:06:32.:06:34.

Labour heartland seat. Areas of high pressure in both

:06:35.:06:39.

places, and some strange sights. We knew this wasn't a normal

:06:40.:06:47.

by-election, and to prove it there is the rapper,

:06:48.:06:50.

Professor Green. Chart-toppers aside,

:06:51.:06:51.

winner of Stoke-on-Trent hit parade was announced first,

:06:52.:06:54.

where everyone was so excited the candidates didn't even make it

:06:55.:06:57.

onto the stage for the result. And I do hereby declare

:06:58.:07:01.

that the said Gareth Snell Nigel Farage has said that victory

:07:02.:07:04.

here in Stoke-on-Trent But Ukip's newish leader

:07:05.:07:12.

played down the defeat, insisting his party's

:07:13.:07:19.

time would come. Are you going to stand again

:07:20.:07:22.

as an MP or has this No doubt I will stand again,

:07:23.:07:28.

don't worry about that. The politics of hope beat

:07:29.:07:31.

the politics of fear. I think Ukip are the ones this

:07:32.:07:40.

weekend who have got But a few minutes later,

:07:41.:07:43.

it turned out Labour had Harrison, Trudy Lynn,

:07:44.:07:48.

the Conservative Party That was more than 2,000

:07:49.:07:52.

votes ahead of Labour. What has happened here tonight

:07:53.:08:04.

is a truly historic event. Labour were disappointed,

:08:05.:08:08.

but determined to be optimistic At a point when we're 15 to 18

:08:09.:08:10.

points behind in the polls... The Conservatives within 2000 votes

:08:11.:08:22.

I think is an incredible The morning after the night

:08:23.:08:26.

before, the losing parties were licking their wounds

:08:27.:08:30.

and their lips over breakfast. For years and years,

:08:31.:08:34.

Ukip was Nigel Farage, That has now changed,

:08:35.:08:37.

that era has gone. It's a new era, it is

:08:38.:08:44.

a second age for us. So that needs to be

:08:45.:08:47.

more fully embedded, it needs to be more defined,

:08:48.:08:51.

you know, and that will We have to continue to improve

:08:52.:08:54.

in seats where we have stood. As we have done here,

:08:55.:09:03.

we've improved on our 2015 result, that's what important,

:09:04.:09:06.

is that we are taking steps Can I be the first to come

:09:07.:09:08.

here today to congratulate you on being elected the new MP

:09:09.:09:13.

for Stoke on Trent Central. Jeremy Corbyn has just arrived

:09:14.:09:16.

in Stoke to welcome his newest MP. Not sure he's going to

:09:17.:09:19.

Copeland later though. Earlier in the day, the Labour

:09:20.:09:24.

leader had made clear he'd considered and discounted some

:09:25.:09:27.

theories about the party's Since you found out that you'd lost

:09:28.:09:29.

a seat to a governing party for the first time

:09:30.:09:36.

since the Falklands War, have you at any point this morning

:09:37.:09:39.

looked in the mirror and asked yourself this question -

:09:40.:09:42.

could the problem actually be me? In the end it was the Conservatives

:09:43.:09:47.

who came out on top. No governing party has made

:09:48.:09:54.

a gain at a by-election With the self-styled people's army

:09:55.:09:57.

of Ukip halted in Stoke, and Labour's wash-out

:09:58.:10:03.

here in Copeland... There's little chance of rain

:10:04.:10:08.

on Theresa May's parade. In the wake of that loss in

:10:09.:10:19.

Copeland, the Scottish Labour Party has been meeting for its spring

:10:20.:10:22.

conference in the Yesterday, deputy leader Tom Watson

:10:23.:10:24.

warned delegates that unless Labour took the by-election defeat

:10:25.:10:29.

seriously, the party's devastation in Scotland could be repeated

:10:30.:10:31.

south of the border. Well, I'm joined now

:10:32.:10:34.

by the leader of Scottish Labour, Even after your party had lost

:10:35.:10:50.

Copeland to the Tories and with Labour now trailing 16 points in the

:10:51.:10:53.

UK polls, you claim to have every faith that Jeremy Corbyn would

:10:54.:10:58.

absolutely win the general election. What evidence can you bring to

:10:59.:11:06.

support that? There is no doubt the result in Copeland was disappointing

:11:07.:11:08.

for the Labour Party and I think it's a collective feeling for

:11:09.:11:12.

everyone within the Labour Party and I want to do what I can to turn

:11:13.:11:15.

around the fortunes of our party. That's what I've committed to do

:11:16.:11:19.

while I have been the Scottish Labour leader. This two years ago we

:11:20.:11:26.

were down the mines so to speak in terms of losing the faith of working

:11:27.:11:29.

class communities across the country, but we listened very hard

:11:30.:11:34.

to the message voters are sending and responded to it. That's what I'm

:11:35.:11:38.

committed to doing in Scotland and that's what Jeremy Corbyn is

:11:39.:11:44.

committed to doing UK wide. The latest polls put Labour at 14% in

:11:45.:11:49.

Scotland, the Tories at ten points ahead of you in Scotland, even

:11:50.:11:55.

Theresa May is more popular than Jeremy Corbyn in Scotland. So I will

:11:56.:12:00.

try again - why are you so sure Jeremy Corbyn could win a general

:12:01.:12:05.

election? What I said when you are talking about Scotland is that I'm

:12:06.:12:09.

the leader of the Scottish Labour Party and I take responsibility for

:12:10.:12:13.

our policies here. Voters said very clearly after the Scottish

:12:14.:12:16.

Parliament election that they didn't have a clear enough sense of what we

:12:17.:12:20.

stood for so I have been advocating a very strong anti-austerity

:12:21.:12:23.

platform, coming up with ideas of how we can oppose the cuts and

:12:24.:12:28.

invest in our future. That is something Jeremy Corbyn also

:12:29.:12:31.

supports but I've also made it clear this weekend that we are opposed to

:12:32.:12:38.

a second independence referendum. I want to bring Scotland back together

:12:39.:12:41.

by focusing on the future and that's why I have been speaking about the

:12:42.:12:46.

federal solution for the UK. I know that Jeremy Corbyn shares that

:12:47.:12:50.

ambition because he is backing the plans for a people's Constitutional

:12:51.:12:54.

Convention. Yes, these are difficult times for the Scottish Labour Party

:12:55.:13:01.

and UK family, but I have a plan in place to turn things around. It will

:13:02.:13:07.

take time though. I'm still not sure why you are so sure the Labour party

:13:08.:13:11.

can win but let me come onto your plan. You want a UK wide

:13:12.:13:16.

Constitutional Convention and that lead to a new Federalist settlement.

:13:17.:13:22.

Is it the policy of the Labour Shadow Cabinet in Westminster to

:13:23.:13:29.

carve England into federal regions? What we support at a UK wide level

:13:30.:13:33.

is the people's constitutional convention. I have been careful to

:13:34.:13:36.

prescribe what I think is in the best interests of Scotland but not

:13:37.:13:40.

to dictate to other parts of the UK what is good for them, that's the

:13:41.:13:45.

point of the people's constitutional convention. You heard Tom Watson say

:13:46.:13:49.

there has to be a UK wide conversation about power, who has it

:13:50.:13:53.

and how it is exercised across England. England hasn't been part of

:13:54.:13:57.

this devolution story over the last 20 years, it is something that

:13:58.:14:02.

happened between Scotland and London or Wales and London. No wonder

:14:03.:14:07.

people in England feel disenfranchised from that. What

:14:08.:14:10.

evidence can you bring to show there is any appetite in England for an

:14:11.:14:16.

English federal solution to England, to carve England into federal

:14:17.:14:21.

regions? Have you spoken to John Prescott about this? He might tell

:14:22.:14:24.

you some of the difficulties. There's not even a debate about that

:14:25.:14:30.

here, Kezia Dugdale, it is fantasy. I speak to John Prescott regularly.

:14:31.:14:34.

What there is a debate about is the idea the world is changing so fast

:14:35.:14:38.

that globalisation is taking jobs away from communities in the

:14:39.:14:41.

north-east, that many working class communities feel left behind, that

:14:42.:14:46.

Westminster feels very far away and the politicians within it feel

:14:47.:14:49.

remote in part of the establishment. People are fed up with power being

:14:50.:14:53.

exercised somewhere else, that's where I think federalism comes in

:14:54.:14:56.

because it's about bringing power closer to people and in many ways

:14:57.:15:01.

it's forced on us because of Brexit. We know the United Kingdom is

:15:02.:15:09.

leaving the European Union so we have to talk about the repatriation

:15:10.:15:12.

of those powers from Brussels to Britain. I want many of those powers

:15:13.:15:14.

to go to the Scottish parliament but where should they go in the English

:15:15.:15:17.

context? It is not as things currently stand the policy of the

:15:18.:15:21.

English Labour Party to carve England into federal regions,

:15:22.:15:22.

correct? It is absolutely the policy of the

:15:23.:15:32.

UK Labour Party to support the people's Constitutional convention

:15:33.:15:36.

to examining these questions. I think it is really important. You're

:15:37.:15:41.

promising the Scottish people a federal solution, and you have not

:15:42.:15:44.

even squared your own party for a federal solution in England. That is

:15:45.:15:50.

not true. The UK Labour Party is united on this. I am going to

:15:51.:15:53.

Cardiff next month to meet with Carwyn Jones and various leaders.

:15:54.:15:58.

United on a federal solution? You know as well as I know it is not

:15:59.:16:02.

united on a federal solution. We will have a conversation about power

:16:03.:16:07.

in this country. It is not united on that

:16:08.:16:30.

issue? This is the direction of travel. It is what you heard

:16:31.:16:34.

yesterday from Sadiq Khan, from Tom Watson, when you hear from people

:16:35.:16:36.

like Nick Forbes who lead Newcastle City Council and Labour's Local

:16:37.:16:38.

Government Association. There is an appetite for talking about power.

:16:39.:16:41.

Talking is one thing. We need to have this conversation across the

:16:42.:16:43.

whole of the United Kingdom, to have a reformed United Kingdom. It is a

:16:44.:16:45.

conversation you're offering Scotland, not the policy. Let's come

:16:46.:16:48.

onto the labour made of London. He was in power for your conference. He

:16:49.:16:50.

wrote in the record yesterday, there is no difference between Scottish

:16:51.:16:53.

nationalism and racism. Would you like this opportunity to distance

:16:54.:16:56.

yourself from that absurd claim? I think that Sadiq Khan was very clear

:16:57.:17:00.

yesterday that he was not accusing the SNP of racism. What he was

:17:01.:17:05.

saying clearly is that nationalism by its very nature divides people

:17:06.:17:09.

and communities. That is what I said in my speech yesterday. I am fed up

:17:10.:17:14.

living in a divided and fractured country and society. Our politics is

:17:15.:17:18.

forcing is constantly to pick sides, whether you're a no, leave a remain,

:17:19.:17:24.

it brings out the worst in our politicians and politics. All the

:17:25.:17:27.

consensus we find in the grey areas is lost. That is why am standing

:17:28.:17:32.

under a banner that together we are stronger. We have to come up with

:17:33.:17:47.

ideas and focus on the future. That is why I agree with Sadiq Khan. He

:17:48.:17:51.

said quite clearly in the Daily Record yesterday, and that the last

:17:52.:17:53.

minute he adapted his speech to your conference yesterday, to try and

:17:54.:17:56.

reduce the impact, that there was no difference between Scottish

:17:57.:17:58.

nationalism and racism. Your colleague, and Sarwar, said that

:17:59.:18:02.

even after he had tried to introduce the caveats, all forms of

:18:03.:18:06.

nationalism rely on creating eyes and them. Let's call it for what it

:18:07.:18:14.

is. So you are implying that the Scottish Nationalists are racist.

:18:15.:18:18.

Would you care to distance yourself from that absurd claim? I utterly

:18:19.:18:22.

refute that that is what Sadiq Khan said. I would never suggest that the

:18:23.:18:28.

SNP are an inherently racist party. That does is a disservice. He did

:18:29.:18:33.

not see it. What he did say, however, is that nationalism is

:18:34.:18:38.

divisive. You know that better than anyone. I see your Twitter account.

:18:39.:18:42.

Regularly your attack for the job you do as a journalist. Politics in

:18:43.:18:48.

Scotland is divided on. I do not want to revisit that independence

:18:49.:18:53.

question again for that reason. As leader of the Labour Party, I want

:18:54.:18:56.

to bring our country back together, appeal to people who voted yes and

:18:57.:19:02.

no. That banner, together we are stronger, that is where the answers

:19:03.:19:05.

lie in defaulters can be found. If in response to the Mayor of London,

:19:06.:19:10.

your colleague says, let's call it out for what it is, what is he

:19:11.:19:15.

referring to if he is not implying that national symbol is racist? --

:19:16.:19:23.

and that nationalism is racist? He is saying that it leads to divisive

:19:24.:19:27.

politics. The Labour Party has always advocated that together we

:19:28.:19:31.

are stronger. Saying something is divisive is very different from

:19:32.:19:35.

saying something is racist. That is what the Mayor of London said. That

:19:36.:19:39.

is what your colleague was referring to. He did not. You would really

:19:40.:19:44.

struggle to quote that from the Mayor of London. He talked about

:19:45.:19:50.

being divided by race. What does that mean? I think he was very clear

:19:51.:19:56.

that he was talking about divided politics. There is an appetite the

:19:57.:20:00.

length and breadth of the country to end that divisive politics. That is

:20:01.:20:04.

what I stand for, focusing on the future, bringing people back

:20:05.:20:08.

together, concentrating on what the economy might look like in 20 years'

:20:09.:20:12.

time in coming up with ideas to tackle it today. Thank you for

:20:13.:20:13.

joining us. Thursday's win for Labour

:20:14.:20:15.

in Stoke-on-Trent Central gave some relief to Jeremy Corbyn,

:20:16.:20:17.

but for Ukip leader and defeated Stoke candidate Paul Nuttall

:20:18.:20:20.

there were no consolation prizes. I'm joined now by Mr Nuttall's

:20:21.:20:22.

principal political Welcome to the programme. Good

:20:23.:20:32.

morning. How long will Paul Nuttall survivors Ukip leader, days, weeks,

:20:33.:20:36.

months? You are in danger of not seeing the wood for the trees. Ukip

:20:37.:20:42.

was formed in 1993 with the express purpose, much mocked, of getting

:20:43.:20:47.

Britain out of the European Union. Under the brilliant leadership of

:20:48.:20:50.

Nigel Farage, we were crucial in forcing a vacuous Prime Minister to

:20:51.:20:54.

make a referendum promise he did not want to give. With our friends in

:20:55.:21:00.

Fort leave and other organisations. Mac we know that. Get to the answer.

:21:01.:21:06.

We helped to win that referendum. The iteration of Ukip at the moment

:21:07.:21:11.

that we're in, the primary purpose, we are the guard dog of Brexit.

:21:12.:21:16.

Viewed through that prism, the Stoke by-election was a brilliant success.

:21:17.:21:21.

A brilliant success? We had the Tory candidate that had pumped out

:21:22.:21:26.

publicity for Remain, for Cameron Bradley, preaching the gospel of

:21:27.:21:30.

Brexit. We had a Labour candidate and we know what he really felt

:21:31.:21:35.

about Brexit, preaching the Gospel according to Brexit. You lost. Well

:21:36.:21:37.

the by-election was going on, we had the Labour Party in the House of

:21:38.:21:54.

Commons pass the idea of trickling Article 50 by a landslide. Are

:21:55.:21:56.

passionate thing, the thing that 35,000 Ukip members care about the

:21:57.:21:58.

most, it is an extraordinary achievement. I am very proud. What

:21:59.:22:01.

would you have described as victory as? If we could have got Paul

:22:02.:22:03.

Nuttall into the House of Commons, that would have been a fantastic

:22:04.:22:07.

cherry on the top. Losing was an extraordinary achievement? Many Ukip

:22:08.:22:13.

supporters the Stoke was winnable, but Paul Nuttall's campaign was

:22:14.:22:19.

marred by controversy, Tory voters refuse to vote tactically for Ukip

:22:20.:22:26.

to beat Labour, his campaign, Mr Nuttall is to blame for not winning

:22:27.:22:30.

what was a winnable seat? I do not see that at all. This is

:22:31.:22:34.

counterintuitive, but Jeremy Corbyn did do one thing that made it more

:22:35.:22:40.

difficult for us to win. Fantasy. That was to take Labour into a

:22:41.:22:45.

Brexit position formerly. Just over 50 Labour MPs had voted against

:22:46.:22:50.

triggering Article 50. In political terms, we have intimidated the

:22:51.:22:54.

Labour Party into backing Brexit. How much good is it doing you? It

:22:55.:22:56.

comes to the heart of the problem your party faces.

:22:57.:23:13.

You're struggling to win Tory Eurosceptic voters. For the moment,

:23:14.:23:15.

they seem happy with Theresa May. Stoke shows you're not winning

:23:16.:23:17.

Labour Brexit voters either. If you cannot get the solution Tolisso

:23:18.:23:19.

labour, where does your Broad come from? In terms of the by-election,

:23:20.:23:22.

it came very early for Paul. I'm talking about the future. We have a

:23:23.:23:25.

future agenda, and ideological argument with Jeremy Corbyn's Labour

:23:26.:23:30.

Party, which is wedded to the notion of global citizenship and does not

:23:31.:23:34.

recognise the nation state. We know he spent Christmas sitting around

:23:35.:23:38.

campfires with Mexican Marxist dreaming of global government. We

:23:39.:23:42.

believe in the nation state. We believe that the patriotic working

:23:43.:23:45.

class vote will be receptive to that. Your Broad went down by 9% in

:23:46.:23:51.

Cortland. In Copeland we were squeezed. In Stoke, we were unable

:23:52.:23:57.

to squeeze the Tories, who are on a high. Our agenda is that social

:23:58.:24:03.

solidarity is important but we arrange it in this country by nation

:24:04.:24:06.

and community. We want an immigration system that is not only

:24:07.:24:11.

reducing... We know what you want. I do not think people do. You had a

:24:12.:24:15.

whole by-election to tell people and they did not vote for you and. When

:24:16.:24:20.

Nigel Farage said it was fundamental that you were winner in Stoke, he

:24:21.:24:25.

was wrong? Nigel chooses his own words. I would not rewrite them. It

:24:26.:24:33.

would be a massive advantage to Ukip to have a leader in the House of

:24:34.:24:36.

Commons in time to reply to the budget, Prime Minister's questions

:24:37.:24:39.

and all of that. But we have taken the strategic view that we will

:24:40.:24:43.

fight the Labour Party for the working class vote. It is also true

:24:44.:24:47.

that the Conservatives will make a pitch for the working class vote

:24:48.:24:51.

might as well. All three parties have certain advantages and

:24:52.:24:55.

disadvantages. As part of that page, Nigel Farage said that your leader,

:24:56.:25:00.

Paul Nuttall, should have taken a clear, by which I assume he meant

:25:01.:25:05.

tough, line on immigration. Do you agree? He took a tough line on

:25:06.:25:10.

immigration. He developed that idea at our party conference in the

:25:11.:25:14.

spring. Nigel Farage did not think so? Nigel Farage made his speech

:25:15.:25:18.

before Paul Nuttall made his speech. He said this in the aftermath of the

:25:19.:25:25.

result. Once we have freedom to control and Borders, Paul wants to

:25:26.:25:31.

set up an immigration system that includes an aptitude test, do you

:25:32.:25:34.

have skills that the British economy needs, but also, and attitudes test,

:25:35.:25:41.

do you subscribe to core British values such as gender equality and

:25:42.:25:46.

freedom of expression? We will be making these arguments. It is

:25:47.:25:49.

certainly true that Paul's campaign was thrown off course by,

:25:50.:25:53.

particularly something that we knew the Labour Party had been preparing

:25:54.:25:59.

to run, the smear on the untruths, the implications about Hillsborough.

:26:00.:26:02.

If you knew you should have anticipated it. Alan Banks, he helps

:26:03.:26:08.

to bankroll your party, he said that Mr Nuttall needs to toss out the

:26:09.:26:13.

Tory cabal in Europe, by which he means Douglas Carswell, Neil

:26:14.:26:16.

Hamilton. Should they be stripped of their membership? Of course not. As

:26:17.:26:22.

far as I knew, Alan Banks was a member of the Conservative Party

:26:23.:26:25.

formally. I do not know who this Tory cabal is supposed to be. He

:26:26.:26:30.

says that your party is more like a jumble sale than a political party.

:26:31.:26:34.

He says that the party should make him chairman or they will work. What

:26:35.:26:40.

do you see to that? He has made that statement several times over many

:26:41.:26:43.

months, including if you do not throw out your only MP. Douglas

:26:44.:26:48.

Carswell has managed to win twice under Ukip colours. Should Tibi

:26:49.:26:52.

chairman? I think we have an excellent young chairman at the

:26:53.:26:59.

moment. He is doing a good job. The idea that Leave.EU was as smooth

:27:00.:27:04.

running brilliant machine, that does not sit with the facts as I

:27:05.:27:07.

understand them. Suzanne Evans says it would be no great loss for Ukip

:27:08.:27:12.

if Mr Banks walked out, severed his ties and took his money elsewhere.

:27:13.:27:17.

Is she right. I am always happy people who want to give money and

:27:18.:27:20.

support your party want to stay in the party. The best donors donate

:27:21.:27:25.

and do not seek to dictate. If they are experts in certain fields,

:27:26.:27:30.

people should listen to their views but to have a daughter telling the

:27:31.:27:33.

party leader who should be party chairman, that is a nonstarter. You

:27:34.:27:38.

have described your existing party chairman is excellent. He said it

:27:39.:27:43.

could be 20 years before Ukip wins by-election. Is he being too

:27:44.:27:48.

optimistic? There is a general election coming up in the years'

:27:49.:27:52.

time. We will be aiming to win seats in that. Before that, we will be the

:27:53.:27:57.

guard dog for Brexit, to make sure this extraordinary achievement of a

:27:58.:28:02.

little party... You are guard dog without a kennel, you cannot get

:28:03.:28:06.

seat? We're keeping the big establishment parties to do the will

:28:07.:28:11.

of the people. If we achieve nothing else at all, that will be a

:28:12.:28:14.

magnificent achievement. Thank you very much.

:28:15.:28:16.

Sweden isn't somewhere we talk about often

:28:17.:28:17.

should because this week it was pulled into

:28:18.:28:21.

the global spotlight, thanks

:28:22.:28:22.

Last weekend, Mr Trump was mocked for referring to an incident that

:28:23.:28:31.

had occurred last night in Sweden as a result of the country's open

:28:32.:28:34.

Critics were quick to point out that no such incident had occurred

:28:35.:28:38.

and Mr Trump later clarified on Twitter and he was talking

:28:39.:28:40.

about a report he had watched on Fox News.

:28:41.:28:44.

But as if to prove he was onto something,

:28:45.:28:46.

next day a riot broke out in a Stockholm suburb

:28:47.:28:49.

with a large migrant population, following unrest in such areas

:28:50.:28:51.

So what has been Sweden's experience of migration?

:28:52.:29:01.

In 2015, a record 162,000 people claimed asylum there, the second

:29:02.:29:04.

That number dropped to 29,000 in 2016 after the country introduced

:29:05.:29:10.

border restrictions and stopped offering permanent

:29:11.:29:12.

Tensions have risen, along with claims of links to crime,

:29:13.:29:20.

although official statistics do not provide evidence of a refugee driven

:29:21.:29:23.

Nigel Farage defended Mr Trump, claiming this week that migrants

:29:24.:29:31.

have led to a dramatic rise in sexual offences.

:29:32.:29:34.

Although the country does have the highest reported

:29:35.:29:36.

rate of rape in Europe, Swedish authorities say recent rises

:29:37.:29:38.

were due to changes to how rape and sex crimes are recorded.

:29:39.:29:44.

Aside from the issue of crime, Sweden has struggled

:29:45.:29:46.

Levels of inequality between natives and migrants when it comes

:29:47.:29:52.

Unemployment rates are three times higher for foreign-born workers

:29:53.:29:55.

We're joined now by Laila Naraghi, she's a Swedish MP from the

:29:56.:30:08.

governing Social Democratic Party, and by the author and

:30:09.:30:10.

The Swedish political establishment was outraged by Mr Trump's remarks,

:30:11.:30:26.

pointing to a riot that hadn't taken place, then a few nights later

:30:27.:30:30.

serious riots did break out in a largely migrant suburb of Stockholm

:30:31.:30:35.

so he wasn't far out, was he? I think he was far out because he is

:30:36.:30:39.

misleading the public with how he uses these statistics. I think it is

:30:40.:30:44.

important to remember that the violence has decreased in Sweden for

:30:45.:30:48.

the past 20 years and research shows there is no evidence that indicate

:30:49.:30:52.

that immigration leads to crime and so I think it is far out. The social

:30:53.:31:00.

unrest in these different areas is not because of their ethical

:31:01.:31:04.

backgrounds of these people living there but more about social economic

:31:05.:31:10.

reasons. OK, no evidence migrants are responsible for any kind of

:31:11.:31:15.

crime? This story reminds me after what happened to the Charlie Hebdo

:31:16.:31:22.

attacks in Paris when also a Fox News commentator said something that

:31:23.:31:27.

was outlandish about Paris and the Mayor of Paris threatened to sue Fox

:31:28.:31:31.

News, saying you are making our city look bad. It's a bit like that

:31:32.:31:36.

because the truth on this lies between Donald Trump on the Swedish

:31:37.:31:40.

authorities on this. Sweden and Swedish government is very reluctant

:31:41.:31:46.

to admit any downsides of its own migration policy and particularly

:31:47.:31:49.

the migration it hard in 2015 but there are very obvious downsides

:31:50.:31:55.

because Sweden is not a country that needs a non-skilled labour force

:31:56.:32:01.

which doesn't speak Swedish. What was raised as the matter of

:32:02.:32:06.

evidence, what is the evidence? First of all if I can say so the

:32:07.:32:10.

rape statistics in Sweden that have been cited are familiar with the

:32:11.:32:14.

rape statistics across other countries that have seen similar

:32:15.:32:18.

forms of migration. Danish authorities and the Norwegian

:32:19.:32:22.

authorities have recorded a similar thing. It is not done by ethnicity

:32:23.:32:27.

so we don't know. And this is part of the problem. It is again a lot of

:32:28.:32:33.

lies and rumours going about. When it is about for example rape, it is

:32:34.:32:39.

difficult to compare the statistics because in Sweden for example many

:32:40.:32:44.

crimes that in other countries are labelled as bodily harm or assault

:32:45.:32:49.

are in Sweden labelled as rape. Also how it is counted because if a woman

:32:50.:32:54.

goes to the police and reports that her husband or boyfriend has raped

:32:55.:33:02.

her, and done it every night for one year, in Sweden that is counted as

:33:03.:33:07.

365 offences. Something is going wrong, I look at the recent news

:33:08.:33:12.

from Sweden. Six Afghan child refugees committed suicide in the

:33:13.:33:15.

last six months, unemployment among recent migrants now five times

:33:16.:33:21.

higher than among non-migrants. We have seen gang violence in Malmo

:33:22.:33:27.

where a British child was killed by a grenade, rioting in Stockholm.

:33:28.:33:31.

Police in Sweden say there are 53 areas of the country where it is now

:33:32.:33:35.

dangerous to patrol. Something has gone wrong. Let me get back to what

:33:36.:33:42.

I think is the core of this debate if I may and that is the right for

:33:43.:33:47.

people fleeing war and political persecution to seek asylum, that is

:33:48.:33:51.

a human right. In Sweden we don't think we can do everything, but we

:33:52.:33:56.

want to live up to our obligation, every country has an obligation to

:33:57.:34:00.

receive asylum seekers. But you have changed your policy on that because

:34:01.:34:05.

having taken 163,001 year alone, you have then closed your borders, I

:34:06.:34:10.

think very wisely, closed the border which means 10,000 people per day at

:34:11.:34:15.

one point were walking from Denmark in to Malmo, you rightly changed

:34:16.:34:20.

that so he realised whatever ones aspirations in terms of asylum, it

:34:21.:34:23.

sometimes meets reality and Sweden is meeting the reality of this.

:34:24.:34:30.

Let's respond to that. We are not naive, we know we cannot do

:34:31.:34:33.

everything but we want to try to do our share as we think other

:34:34.:34:37.

countries also need to do their share. But let me say that, if you

:34:38.:34:41.

look at what the World Economic Forum is saying about our country

:34:42.:34:45.

they show we are in the top of many rankings, the best country to live

:34:46.:34:49.

in, to age in, to have children in, to start into -- to start

:34:50.:34:56.

enterprise. Why have you not been good at integrating migrants? The

:34:57.:35:04.

unemployment rate is five times higher among migrants than

:35:05.:35:08.

non-migrants and that's the highest ratio of any country in the EU and

:35:09.:35:13.

the OECD, why have you not been able to integrate the people you have

:35:14.:35:18.

brought in for humanitarian reasons? I'm sure there are things we can do

:35:19.:35:22.

much better of course but if you look for example at the immigration

:35:23.:35:26.

that came in the 90s from the Balkans, they are well integrated

:35:27.:35:31.

and contributing to our society. They are starting enterprises and

:35:32.:35:33.

working in different fields of society, and they help our country.

:35:34.:35:42.

Why have they not got jobs, the migrants that have come in? It takes

:35:43.:35:48.

time. In the 90s we managed it and I'm sure we can do it again. Can I

:35:49.:35:53.

put this into some context, it is clear Sweden has got problems as a

:35:54.:35:56.

result of the number of migrants that come in, whether it is as bad

:35:57.:36:01.

as Mr Trump and others make out is another matter, but perhaps I can

:36:02.:36:05.

put it into context. Malmo, which has been at the centre of many of

:36:06.:36:10.

these migrant problems, its homicide rate is three per hundred thousand.

:36:11.:36:17.

Chicago, 28 per 100,000. It may have problems but they are not huge. No,

:36:18.:36:22.

they are pretty huge and I think they will grow. The Balkan refugees

:36:23.:36:27.

into Sweden in the 90s did bring a lot of problems and Sweden did for

:36:28.:36:32.

the first time see serious ethnic gang rivalries. There was an upsurge

:36:33.:36:35.

in gang-related violence that has gone on since. The situation in

:36:36.:36:41.

Malmo in particular is exaggerated by some people, there's no doubt

:36:42.:36:45.

about that, I have been there many times and it is undoubtedly

:36:46.:36:49.

exaggerated by some, it is also vastly unpersuaded by the Swedish

:36:50.:36:54.

authorities. -- understated. In 2010, one in ten Jews in Malmo

:36:55.:37:05.

registered some form of attack on them. It got so bad that in 2010

:37:06.:37:14.

people offered to escort Jews... You have had a good say and I have got

:37:15.:37:19.

to be fair here, what do you say to that, Laila Naraghi? There are

:37:20.:37:25.

people trying to frame our country in a certain way to push their own

:37:26.:37:29.

agenda. I regret that President Trump is trying to slander our

:37:30.:37:35.

country. But what about the specific point on Malmo? If you speak to

:37:36.:37:39.

people in Malmo and also to different congregations, they say

:37:40.:37:43.

they are working together with the authorities to improve this. I say

:37:44.:37:47.

again, there are a lot of people trying to spread rumours and lies.

:37:48.:37:52.

Your situation is very like the situation we had in Britain when we

:37:53.:37:57.

have these situations in Rotherham and elsewhere. 1400 girls were raped

:37:58.:38:02.

in Rotherham before police even admitted it was going on. That

:38:03.:38:07.

happened in Britain in the last decade, a similar phenomenon. An

:38:08.:38:10.

upsurge in particularly sexual and other forms of violence and then

:38:11.:38:14.

total denial by an entire political class is now something that is

:38:15.:38:19.

happening in Sweden. I see it in Swedish authorities and the denial

:38:20.:38:22.

that comes up and the desire to laugh and dismiss Trump but he's not

:38:23.:38:27.

answer nothing and that's a painful thing for any society to want to

:38:28.:38:34.

admit to. There are number of Swedes who think the establishment is

:38:35.:38:41.

covering up the true statistics, that you don't break crime down by

:38:42.:38:45.

ethnic crimes, people are suspicious of the centre-left and centre-right

:38:46.:38:51.

parties now in Sweden. There is no denial and no cover-up. This is what

:38:52.:38:54.

I'm speaking about when I say people are trying to frame it in a certain

:38:55.:38:59.

way. The social unrest is not because of the ethnical background

:39:00.:39:02.

of the people living there but rather because of different

:39:03.:39:06.

socioeconomics conditions. There is no research that shows

:39:07.:39:12.

immigration... But you don't do the research into it. Swedish

:39:13.:39:15.

authorities deliberately ensure you cannot carry out such research and

:39:16.:39:19.

after the attacks in Cologne in 2015 it was the first time then that the

:39:20.:39:23.

Swedish authorities and press admitted that similar sexual

:39:24.:39:27.

molestation have been going on for years in Sweden. Is it right to

:39:28.:39:34.

think, given the problem is maybe not as bad as many people make out

:39:35.:39:38.

but clearly problems, given these problems, is the age of mass asylum

:39:39.:39:44.

seeking for Sweden over? You have cut the numbers by 80% coming in

:39:45.:39:48.

last year compared with 2015, is it over while you concentrate on

:39:49.:39:53.

getting right the people that you have there already? We want to do

:39:54.:39:57.

our share, we have done a lot and now we are concentrating of course

:39:58.:40:01.

on integration and making sure people get a job, and also

:40:02.:40:14.

on big welfare investments because it's important to remember that for

:40:15.:40:17.

eight years Sweden were governed by a government that prioritised big

:40:18.:40:19.

tax cuts instead of investment in welfare. It may just not work. I am

:40:20.:40:23.

grateful to you both, we have to leave it there.

:40:24.:40:24.

It's coming up to 11:40am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:40:25.:40:33.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:40:34.:40:35.

Scottish Labour promise to work to save the union,

:40:36.:40:39.

And they were here before. In the last government, everything they

:40:40.:40:52.

said was just lies. I think Jeremy Corbyn is a big problem for them and

:40:53.:40:56.

it's very sad that we haven't got a decent opposition.

:40:57.:40:59.

We take a look at whether whole life prison sentences really work.

:41:00.:41:03.

This weekend, delegates from Scottish Labour

:41:04.:41:05.

Its leader Kezia Dugdale's speech was full of promises to work

:41:06.:41:08.

tirelessly in support of the Union if there's a second

:41:09.:41:11.

But it was comments from the London Mayor Sadiq Khan

:41:12.:41:14.

And there is no difference between those who try to divide us on the

:41:15.:41:28.

basis of whether we are English or Scottish and those who try to divide

:41:29.:41:32.

us on the basis of our background, race or religion. Of course, I'm not

:41:33.:41:38.

saying that nationalists are somehow racist or bigoted, but no more than

:41:39.:41:43.

ever, what we don't need is more more division and separation.

:41:44.:41:44.

what we don't need is more more division and separation.

:41:45.:41:46.

The conference also voted to in favour of a

:41:47.:41:48.

People's Constitutional Convention to look

:41:49.:41:49.

at establishing a federal power plan for the UK.

:41:50.:41:52.

In a moment, we'll be speaking to the former

:41:53.:41:54.

leader of Scottish Labour, Ian Gray.

:41:55.:41:55.

But first, Huw Williams has been gauging the mood.

:41:56.:41:59.

A celebration of the nations of world on Perth pot high street this

:42:00.:42:07.

weekend, but the question for Scottish Labour, can he keep the red

:42:08.:42:11.

flag flying here? Especially when things seem to be going so badly for

:42:12.:42:16.

them. In the conference this morning, I think you would have

:42:17.:42:23.

realised that there is a lots of support for policies that are being

:42:24.:42:28.

brought forward and a general expectation that we will fight for

:42:29.:42:34.

these and starred the elections back again. Bigoted very, very difficult

:42:35.:42:40.

period for the Labour Party throughout the United Kingdom. I'm

:42:41.:42:44.

we will come back, we have in the past and I'm sure we will do again.

:42:45.:42:51.

No scientific survey, but a snapshot of opinion from the people we

:42:52.:42:57.

canvassed. I think they are in disarray. I don't know, the left

:42:58.:43:01.

hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing half the time, I

:43:02.:43:05.

think. Is the last government, everything they said was just lies.

:43:06.:43:10.

I think Jeremy Corbyn is a big problem for them and it's very sad

:43:11.:43:14.

that we haven't got a decent opposition. It's much more

:43:15.:43:17.

orientated from England. Their policies are much more orientated

:43:18.:43:23.

around with that of there. The Labour Party... I think those

:43:24.:43:33.

fleeing... I'm not sure what they stand for any more. So what does the

:43:34.:43:39.

Labour Party have to say and do to rebuild trust and win back voters?

:43:40.:43:44.

Connected with the Labour Party if everything went right. Clearly

:43:45.:43:49.

connected with grassroots, the working class of this country and

:43:50.:43:53.

people do the work for our duties, but the NHS, for our teachers. The

:43:54.:43:58.

seven strong and putting our policies which contained a letter to

:43:59.:44:01.

the VIP party of the people want more. Libyans to close the gap

:44:02.:44:10.

between 30 again. SNP have not lived up to their promises, Labour will. -

:44:11.:44:17.

fantastic record for what they have done the last five years, is about

:44:18.:44:21.

the constant austerity. I have to call it that the tide and Tories,

:44:22.:44:25.

from the Scottish national Government. We have held our heads

:44:26.:44:30.

up, kept spending much as we can, particularly for education and

:44:31.:44:34.

social care. Those have been our priorities, but we have also been

:44:35.:44:37.

building Council houses and have just about reached our target for

:44:38.:44:43.

the last five years. People argue that the Labour Party is dying. When

:44:44.:44:48.

I first joined the Labour Party back in 1959, people were saying it then.

:44:49.:44:53.

People will keep claiming that they are dead or dying, but we ourselves

:44:54.:44:59.

here. Labour in power examining external and 15 in beginning, but

:45:00.:45:07.

Jeremy Corbyn will be addressing the conference later today.

:45:08.:45:10.

In the meantime, at the conference in Perth this morning is the former

:45:11.:45:13.

and morning. First of all, Sadiq Khan has dominated a lot of the

:45:14.:45:26.

attention given to a conference. I don't really want to get into a

:45:27.:45:29.

discussion about what exactly is meant by what he said, but who the

:45:30.:45:35.

benefit of hindsight think that the way particularly in the article but

:45:36.:45:39.

the daily record, could have been put in the article but the daily

:45:40.:45:42.

record, could- but it bit more sensibly? Paving the way record,

:45:43.:45:44.

could put a little bit more sensibly? Eventuate have been

:45:45.:45:47.

construed haven't necessarily in that very helpful. He is clear about

:45:48.:45:54.

what he said. But he said was that the politics of nationalism is

:45:55.:45:58.

divisive and they think anybody who has lived through Scottish politics

:45:59.:46:02.

in recent years would have taken that that is the case. And I asked

:46:03.:46:06.

the question is that almost all people pursuing the conference has

:46:07.:46:13.

been working set and the SNP and the response. It made as well have been

:46:14.:46:18.

an SNP conference the publicity it has got and not a Labour conference.

:46:19.:46:25.

Do not agree with that. I have looked through the papers today" a

:46:26.:46:32.

lot of the coverage look at Kezia Dugdale's opinion on a second

:46:33.:46:37.

referendum and the very important announcement that we are seeing an

:46:38.:46:40.

increase on child benefit, which could lose as many as 30,000

:46:41.:46:44.

children out of poverty. That is really important method. And noted

:46:45.:46:50.

that if there is a second referendum that Labour in Scotland will be

:46:51.:46:55.

followed through, 100% in favour of the United Kingdom? Yes. I think

:46:56.:47:03.

Kezia Dugdale mood that as clear as she possibly could yesterday. She

:47:04.:47:09.

said that in Labour Party that she said would never support

:47:10.:47:13.

independence, because it is a fundamental principle that together

:47:14.:47:19.

we are a stronger. The whole campaign to win independent kingdom.

:47:20.:47:23.

There is a second independence referendum, we don't want to see it.

:47:24.:47:32.

What it is doing is costing a great deal of difficulty. Michael

:47:33.:47:38.

Rasztovits and should put that question to rest. She does not have

:47:39.:47:43.

a mandate for a second referendum, so let's stop that and get on with

:47:44.:47:47.

things like improving our schools, health service and losing children

:47:48.:47:53.

out of poverty. Does that mean that if you are thinking of joining a

:47:54.:47:57.

political party and you're in favour of independence, you should not join

:47:58.:48:02.

the Labour Party? People join the Labour Party because they believe

:48:03.:48:06.

and our slogan sums it up that together we are stronger, we can

:48:07.:48:11.

make Scotland but about moving out of poverty, but even on the

:48:12.:48:15.

constitution, who now have a verse on offer moving towards a federal

:48:16.:48:19.

foolish and the United Kingdom as a whole. -- a federal solution.

:48:20.:48:29.

Neither a complete commitment to the state is closed nor the obsession

:48:30.:48:36.

with independence that scene from the SNP. Perhaps the key word used

:48:37.:48:41.

in that answer is no, because until very recently that wasn't your

:48:42.:48:49.

position. Kezia Dugdale was worth and review earlier. In case people

:48:50.:48:52.

are missing her, I thought we would play one of her greatest hits. Here

:48:53.:48:58.

is what she had to say on the actor who gave a year ago. If there is

:48:59.:49:04.

another independence referendum, should Labour independence and PSP

:49:05.:49:15.

fans can pay for it? -- MPs. If they believe that, I'm not going to down

:49:16.:49:22.

debate. So Kezia Dugdale believed they should be free to campaign for

:49:23.:49:28.

it. Kezia Dugdale was answering a question in your go about discipline

:49:29.:49:32.

in the party and whether she was going to expel people are talking

:49:33.:49:35.

about the possibility of independence... I'm not sure that is

:49:36.:49:43.

what I asked her. I asked if you could be a member of the Labour

:49:44.:49:47.

Party and campaign for independence and she said absolutely, yes. I

:49:48.:49:54.

didn't say anything about expelling people buy that. Her position was

:49:55.:50:01.

absolutely crystal clear yesterday that she opposes independence, that

:50:02.:50:05.

the Labour Party opposes independence. They should not be

:50:06.:50:13.

such a referendum. The problem you have got is that given the Scottish

:50:14.:50:17.

Conservatives have got being in favour of the UK pretty much sewn

:50:18.:50:21.

up, why should people who are thinking of supporting Labour

:50:22.:50:24.

believe that what you have just said that Kezia Dugdale's position is

:50:25.:50:26.

absolutely crystal clear? We have that Kezia Dugdale's position is

:50:27.:50:31.

just heard her say year ago that her position was absolutely crystal

:50:32.:50:34.

clear. The only problem is, they are opposite positions.

:50:35.:50:44.

I don't think that is true at all. Across this weekend, she has made

:50:45.:50:53.

the position crystal clear, we have now a unique position between the

:50:54.:51:02.

three major parties on the constitution, which is we are in

:51:03.:51:04.

favour of People's Convention to develop a federal solution for the

:51:05.:51:09.

United Kingdom. I think that is in line with the thinking of a

:51:10.:51:17.

significant majority of Scots who are maybe fed up with this debate

:51:18.:51:23.

being so polarised between the Tory position and the SNP's of session...

:51:24.:51:29.

If there is another referendum and you say to people vote to stick with

:51:30.:51:38.

the United Kingdom, because we are proposing a federal UK, it would be

:51:39.:51:42.

helpful if that was the position of the Labour Party in England and if

:51:43.:51:47.

there was any remote chance of labour actually winning the next

:51:48.:51:52.

general election. It is the position of the UK Labour Party, we saw Tom

:51:53.:51:55.

Watson the deputy leader talking about this. To have a federal

:51:56.:52:09.

England? To look at how it is distributed throughout United

:52:10.:52:10.

Kingdom. Sadiq Khan, talked about distributed throughout United

:52:11.:52:12.

this as well. What is a federal England going to look like? Just a

:52:13.:52:19.

minute, Gordon. In recent months, Kezia Dugdale and Gerry McCann and

:52:20.:52:21.

have worked together to agree to work towards a federal - might

:52:22.:52:37.

people's convention. It it is the business of that people's

:52:38.:52:39.

convention. Part of the problem of this debate is that for 20 years we

:52:40.:52:45.

have carried out this debate solely in Scotland and I do think that

:52:46.:52:49.

there are many people in England who feel that they have been left behind

:52:50.:52:52.

by that devolution debate and that they should have a debate -- C N

:52:53.:53:03.

Howe C and how power is set out in England. Do you think generally

:53:04.:53:12.

Corbyn will win the next general election? I think he can. I am not

:53:13.:53:16.

going to pretend we are not in a difficult position right now and in

:53:17.:53:18.

the polls and in the by-election we saw earlier this week. But a general

:53:19.:53:21.

election is some distance away and I do believe these things can be

:53:22.:53:29.

turned around. . You almost got there at one point. Thank you very

:53:30.:53:31.

much indeed. When should a life

:53:32.:53:32.

sentence mean life? It's a long running debate,

:53:33.:53:34.

but should whole life orders be The issue was raised this week

:53:35.:53:37.

during First Minister's Questions, after the killer of teenager

:53:38.:53:40.

Paige Docherty had One that we have heard several times

:53:41.:53:52.

before from this government, as it stands our judges do not have the

:53:53.:53:55.

tool of a whole life tariff at their disposal and we see that they

:53:56.:53:59.

should. We can sit in this Parliament and we can express

:54:00.:54:03.

outrage every time something like this happens we can do something

:54:04.:54:10.

about it. And I want to do something about it. If the Scottish Government

:54:11.:54:16.

will not act, I can say today that the Scottish Conservatives will push

:54:17.:54:23.

through with the members Bill pushing for a case of whole life

:54:24.:54:25.

sentences in Scotland. We need to stand up for families who see

:54:26.:54:28.

sentences for murder cut after a year they have been handed down and

:54:29.:54:32.

we should change the law so families like page Doherty's feel that the

:54:33.:54:45.

law is going back in their favour. We have waited too long. Isn't it

:54:46.:54:57.

time we all acted? First Minister. I do think it is important that we

:54:58.:55:00.

continue to look at these issues rationally. We have introduced over

:55:01.:55:02.

the course of the period that we have been in government a whole

:55:03.:55:05.

range of reforms to our justice system. I said earlier on that the

:55:06.:55:08.

fall in crime is partly in large part due to the good work over

:55:09.:55:10.

police officers, we are seeing in the increases in rates of conviction

:55:11.:55:23.

in some crimes. Much of that is down to the reforms that have been

:55:24.:55:25.

introduced to our justice system over the period of the last decade.

:55:26.:55:28.

We will continue to look with a novel mind up proposals brought

:55:29.:55:29.

forward for further As you heard there,

:55:30.:55:30.

the Scottish Conservatives say they'll bring a private

:55:31.:55:32.

members Bill, calling for whole-life sentences

:55:33.:55:34.

in the coming weeks. But how do these sentences

:55:35.:55:35.

work and how successful Andrew Coyle is Emeritus Professor

:55:36.:55:37.

of Prison Studies at University First of all, just explain how these

:55:38.:55:55.

orders work. A judge can say at sentencing, can he or she, you will

:55:56.:56:00.

spend the rest of your natural life in prison? Can I answer that by

:56:01.:56:05.

explaining the current situation in Scotland is that anyone who is

:56:06.:56:13.

convicted of murder will receive a life sentence. In addition the judge

:56:14.:56:25.

must define a minimum punishment tariff. That minimum punishment

:56:26.:56:31.

tariff is the minimum time that the person will spend in prison. After

:56:32.:56:34.

that period, however along, the case can be referred to the parole board

:56:35.:56:39.

to decide whether what the next step should be. That process, after the

:56:40.:56:42.

minimum period, can take a very long time and the parole board is very

:56:43.:56:46.

cautious about releasing anyone. There are instances where the parole

:56:47.:56:51.

board regularly refuses conditional release. There are a number of

:56:52.:56:54.

prisoners in Scotland at the moment to have tariffs of over 30 years.

:56:55.:56:57.

There is one case of a prisoner who was sentenced to life in 1987 with a

:56:58.:57:06.

tariff of 15 years. He is still in prison today 30 years later. And the

:57:07.:57:12.

final point to be made is that there is no in law, there is no limit to

:57:13.:57:15.

the tariff which the judge can apply. Several prisoners, as I say,

:57:16.:57:23.

are serving over 30 years of the tariff. The longest tariff imposed

:57:24.:57:29.

in Scotland was on anger thing clear in 2014. A tariff of 37 years. That

:57:30.:57:33.

means that he will be 106 if you live is before his case is even

:57:34.:57:39.

considered. -- Angus Sinclair. In England, what is the difference? The

:57:40.:57:46.

judge can see it as an till the end of your natural life? What happens

:57:47.:57:51.

in David Blunkett's time as Home Secretary was that he introduced a

:57:52.:57:58.

provision where the judge could specifically say, imposed a whole

:57:59.:58:03.

life tariff. Previous to that, the Home Secretary himself, not the

:58:04.:58:10.

judge, the Home Secretary had imposed a number of home tariffs. --

:58:11.:58:17.

live tariffs. Scotland, Peter Tobin, who have whole life sentences. There

:58:18.:58:24.

is no legal prohibition on a judge imposing such a tariff. Other than

:58:25.:58:31.

proportionality, president and consideration of the individual

:58:32.:58:36.

case. There is no question in this particular case that the man

:58:37.:58:40.

concerned will has a 23 year sentence. He has a life sentence and

:58:41.:58:44.

will serve at least 23 years before he is considered and that

:58:45.:58:48.

consideration will run for many, many years. You seem to be saying

:58:49.:58:54.

there is no difference between the system in Scotland and the system in

:58:55.:59:01.

England because judges can impose minimum sentences before parole,

:59:02.:59:06.

that are so long, that they equate to whole life sentences in England?

:59:07.:59:14.

Yes. Arguably there was no need for that change in the law to be

:59:15.:59:18.

introduced in England because it hasn't really changed the situation.

:59:19.:59:21.

And at the moment people, the parole board is cautious about reducing,

:59:22.:59:31.

releasing anyone. I will give you the examples of Angus Sinclair who

:59:32.:59:34.

will be considered for release when he is 106. That in effect as a life

:59:35.:59:43.

tariff. Whole live tariffs are not necessarily whole life, are they?

:59:44.:59:47.

There have been some instances, one of the Kray brothers was one, he was

:59:48.:59:52.

let out that he had cancer and he died a few weeks after. But there is

:59:53.:59:55.

a procedure whereby someone can be released. There has always been and

:59:56.:00:04.

continues to be provision. What has been said in exceptional

:00:05.:00:08.

circumstances. The minister in England, the Justice Secretary, can

:00:09.:00:12.

order the release of someone in exceptional circumstances and are

:00:13.:00:16.

very obvious example, you gave the example of Ronnie Kray, he was

:00:17.:00:21.

released because he was approaching the point of death. So that

:00:22.:00:24.

provision remains there. And also when a person is released, that

:00:25.:00:29.

person remains on close supervision on the rest of his or her life. That

:00:30.:00:36.

is what the life sentence means. Andrew Coyle, thank you very much

:00:37.:00:40.

indeed for joining us. Well, let's discuss this

:00:41.:00:41.

with two members of In our Inverness studio

:00:42.:00:43.

is the Scottish Conservatives Justice Spokesperson Douglas Ross

:00:44.:00:47.

and Stewart Stevenson from the SNP Douglas Ross, many people would

:00:48.:00:56.

understand you wanting to advocate whole life tariffs. But you heard

:00:57.:01:01.

Andrew Coyle there's saying that in Scotland despite the technical

:01:02.:01:03.

differences, that amounts to the same thing as the system in England.

:01:04.:01:07.

In that sense there is no need to change. I would disagree with that.

:01:08.:01:12.

I know he gave the example of Angus Sinclair. But there are other

:01:13.:01:18.

examples where people are given life sentences for despicable murders who

:01:19.:01:22.

go on to be released. And he also mentioned in his remarks, it is up

:01:23.:01:34.

to the parole board. What we want to do to the worst criminals in

:01:35.:01:37.

Scotland is to give the judges the opportunity to set sentencing and

:01:38.:01:45.

see you will not be released and that will give convert to the

:01:46.:01:46.

victims of crime. For those of us who are not lawyers,

:01:47.:02:04.

is the point you are making that in England if you get a whole life

:02:05.:02:07.

tariff, no one apart from the Home Secretary and an exceptional

:02:08.:02:08.

circumflex sizes can come along and say, we will reconsider that. Is

:02:09.:02:11.

that your point? Yes. In England and Wales, section 31 of the 1990

:02:12.:02:21.

sentencing bill allows the Justice Secretary under six action 's

:02:22.:02:22.

circumstances and compassionate grounds to believe someone who has

:02:23.:02:25.

been given a whole life tariff. There are 59 across England and

:02:26.:02:27.

Wales. It is important that element is in there. But it does also allow

:02:28.:02:30.

judges in England and Wales to pass down a sentence that they couldn't

:02:31.:02:38.

have the virgin unity to do. It is giving judges the tools if they wish

:02:39.:02:41.

to use them for the very worst criminals in Scotland. Stewart

:02:42.:02:48.

Stevenson, I do not know what your position is on this. Nicola Sturgeon

:02:49.:02:50.

seemed in part sympathetic to what Douglas Ross was saying when she was

:02:51.:02:52.

speaking at First Minister's Questions. I think we need to be

:02:53.:03:04.

very clear that the real sentence is borne by the relatives and friends

:03:05.:03:06.

of the person who has been murdered. Further in the sentences are matter

:03:07.:03:08.

of considerable importance. The case that Professor Coyle referred to

:03:09.:03:10.

other Angus Sinclair who Lord Matthews sentenced to 37 years of

:03:11.:03:13.

punishment. That will far exceed his life. I think that is a clear

:03:14.:03:21.

message that the Criminal Justice System system is taking seriously.

:03:22.:03:23.

The offences he committed. And that is the message to the family. Judges

:03:24.:03:26.

have the opportunity when they wish to impose a sentence that means

:03:27.:03:29.

someone will never ever be released. What I hear from

:03:30.:03:46.

Russell -- Douglas Ross, he wants to play politicians into sacking guess

:03:47.:03:49.

what judges say. That is a dangerous place to go. With the option of

:03:50.:03:56.

judges passing exemplary sentences that will exceed the span of

:03:57.:03:58.

someone's wife, we have a system that actually works. Judges could

:03:59.:04:01.

have the option that people should stay in jail for the natural life.

:04:02.:04:04.

In what way is that bringing politicians into it? It is giving

:04:05.:04:10.

judges an option, which in Scotland, which they have in England, which in

:04:11.:04:12.

Scotland they do not have. Douglas Ross appeared to make quite clear

:04:13.:04:18.

that he says the role of politicians and reviewing that in the fullness

:04:19.:04:21.

of time. I am not sure that that is where the public would want us to

:04:22.:04:24.

go. I am not sure the system in England is one that we would wish to

:04:25.:04:33.

copy. I have spoken to people on whole life sentences in visits to

:04:34.:04:50.

prisons in France and Wales. The prospect of a for those people was

:04:51.:04:53.

nil. They are following. In Scotland, the Sheriff, the pencil --

:04:54.:04:56.

then sentencing has the option of passing exemplary sentences beyond

:04:57.:05:02.

lie. That sends a strong signal to the people who have suffered a loss

:05:03.:05:05.

through the murder. If it is only a notch and for the judges, the judges

:05:06.:05:08.

are already passing sentences that are more draconian than simple whole

:05:09.:05:15.

life. Why would that be used as a system -- such as Angus Sinclair.

:05:16.:05:20.

Again, what exactly is the advantage of what you're proposing? I think it

:05:21.:05:24.

is interesting that we can only use one example in Scotland Angus

:05:25.:05:32.

Sinclair who took decades to be brought to serve justice. If he was

:05:33.:05:34.

convicted of the crimes when he did the crowds, he would have been given

:05:35.:05:38.

37 years and not a whole life sentence. You have to question, had

:05:39.:05:44.

not been the delay to bring him to justice, should he used as an

:05:45.:05:46.

example? But even at Kuyt change in judges

:05:47.:06:01.

rather than changing the law, surely? Even if they had the option

:06:02.:06:06.

to give Hall life character comedy wouldn't necessarily choose that

:06:07.:06:10.

option any more than they would use the option of giving 37 years to

:06:11.:06:16.

someone. That is an opportunity for the judges to use the powers and

:06:17.:06:19.

they can we do that if they are given to them. That is what I will

:06:20.:06:24.

be doing in my Private member's bill, give judges the opportunity to

:06:25.:06:33.

give Hall life tariffs. It means that Angus Robertson would be 136

:06:34.:06:37.

before he would ever be considered for release. There are a very small

:06:38.:06:43.

number of atrocious calories in this country, who I believe, if judges

:06:44.:06:47.

had the opportunity, they may wish to use a whole life tariff. Judges

:06:48.:06:52.

need to be given the opportunity to do their job. Presumably you would

:06:53.:06:57.

be against such a change in the law, but would you be in favour of some

:06:58.:07:03.

measures being taken to encourage judges to give some more of these

:07:04.:07:07.

exemplary tariffs than is happening at the moment? Just a mind people,

:07:08.:07:12.

the controversy this week was because someone who was a murderer

:07:13.:07:18.

has his sentence reduced from 27 to 22 years. Think we have to bear in

:07:19.:07:25.

mind that the Appeal Court could always set aside a whole life

:07:26.:07:29.

sentence in any event. It is a false thing to consider the role of the

:07:30.:07:33.

Appeal Court in looking at a particular sentence imposed. The

:07:34.:07:40.

bottom line is, families are entitled to see exemplary sentences

:07:41.:07:43.

passed. I do hope that in the criminal justice of eight feet entry

:07:44.:07:50.

justice spokesperson was right careful to say that we must leave

:07:51.:07:55.

this issue of sentencing to judges. They are the masters of the issues

:07:56.:08:00.

that surround a particular case. It is our peril that we make

:08:01.:08:05.

politicians decide. Are going to have to leave it there. Thank you

:08:06.:08:07.

both very much indeed. Now, a look back at the week gone

:08:08.:08:08.

by and the next seven days This week, the week ahead is from

:08:09.:08:11.

the Scottish Labour conference. Let's go back to the Scottish Labour

:08:12.:08:31.

Conference and joining me from Perth is the Scottish Political Editor

:08:32.:08:34.

of the Herald, Tom Gordon, and the former Labour MP Dame Anne

:08:35.:08:36.

McGuire. We're not just talking about

:08:37.:08:40.

politics this morning, we are talking about formal logic. We have

:08:41.:08:46.

just heard that Kezia Dugdale said that Labour MPs could campaign for

:08:47.:08:48.

independence and saying that Labour is now a solidly against that

:08:49.:08:54.

happening is not a contradiction. Well, there is a of opinion within

:08:55.:08:59.

the broader labour movement. We saw that during the referendum and

:09:00.:09:04.

during a lot of the trade unions referring from taking positions

:09:05.:09:07.

during the referendum, because they didn't want their membership to

:09:08.:09:12.

split of the constitution. It is a broad church. Those who want to

:09:13.:09:16.

prosper in the Labour Party in Scotland will probably have to sign

:09:17.:09:19.

up to the idea that an independence referendum will be opposed whilst

:09:20.:09:26.

Kezia Dugdale is the leader. And McGuire, do you think that Kezia

:09:27.:09:32.

Dugdale in her latest iteration of horror opinion of independence has

:09:33.:09:35.

got it right, that Labour should go back to being solidly

:09:36.:09:40.

anti-Independent? I think she had the right note yesterday announced

:09:41.:09:47.

in her previous comments. Not only did she emphasise our position

:09:48.:09:52.

against a second referendum, but she also highlighted, I think, the next

:09:53.:09:55.

against a second referendum, but she big issue in terms of the

:09:56.:09:58.

Constitution, but in Scotland and the UK. How we manage our

:09:59.:10:04.

constitutional arrangements post revolution. We have what used to be

:10:05.:10:08.

called asymmetrical demolition and the idea of a constitutional

:10:09.:10:13.

convention is actually a way forward to open up a conversation. What do

:10:14.:10:20.

you think from the conference, Tom, if Labour getting anywhere? I think

:10:21.:10:25.

they may be getting somewhere slowly. They have adopted a third

:10:26.:10:30.

way on the Constitution. They need a way out of this bind where they are

:10:31.:10:35.

caught between the SNP and nationalism on one side and the

:10:36.:10:38.

Conservatives and dealers on the other. They have dusted down the old

:10:39.:10:42.

Liberal Democrat idea of federalism. It has not got very fast so far. I

:10:43.:10:46.

think it will be a tough sell to voters. It is a pointed argument to

:10:47.:10:53.

make on the doorstep, especially during the forthcoming election

:10:54.:10:55.

campaign when things will be heated. I think it requires huge by yen from

:10:56.:11:01.

regions of England and so far, we have not seen much appetite for

:11:02.:11:06.

that. It was overwhelmingly rejected when John Prescott put it forward in

:11:07.:11:08.

the north-east. That was 20 years when John Prescott put it forward in

:11:09.:11:12.

ago and we have moved forward since then. To compare it with the

:11:13.:11:18.

Liberals 100 years ago is actually less misrepresenting the current

:11:19.:11:26.

environment in which we are working. There might be an independence

:11:27.:11:30.

referendum next year, I've Labour is going to say to people don't vote in

:11:31.:11:35.

the United Kingdom, because we have this fantastic plan for a federal

:11:36.:11:38.

UK, the obvious reply that people will be, Jeremy Corbyn isn't going

:11:39.:11:44.

to win the next general election, so therefore this is just fantasy

:11:45.:11:50.

politics. No, the arguments against separating Scotland from the vet of

:11:51.:11:53.

the United Kingdom are as valid today as they were two years ago,

:11:54.:11:59.

which is very much plainer subset of our major market, disrupting a

:12:00.:12:05.

single might get in the UK, which has been there for 300 years. There

:12:06.:12:11.

is an integration in terms of all sorts of industries and services, so

:12:12.:12:15.

I actually think the idea and still valid. Tom, it is a problem, isn't

:12:16.:12:21.

it? If you're going to make a runner, you little blue that this

:12:22.:12:26.

just gives Labour a way of talking about constitutional things that

:12:27.:12:29.

they haven't had the last ten years. If was massively popular in England,

:12:30.:12:37.

Labour in Scotland could say, just hang on until 2020, Labour will win

:12:38.:12:41.

the election and we will have a federal UK. Very few people even in

:12:42.:12:45.

the Labour Party seem to think that Labour will open in 2020 and in

:12:46.:12:49.

addition to that, it is far from clear that Labour in England have

:12:50.:12:54.

bought into the idea of federalism. Exactly. There are a big long-term

:12:55.:12:58.

problems with this idea. Kezia Dugdale has a valid point on one

:12:59.:13:05.

level that there will be repatriated of powers after Brexit. We had to

:13:06.:13:08.

decide how those powers of the distributed around the United

:13:09.:13:12.

Kingdom. People looking at John Cobb and not the future Prime Minister in

:13:13.:13:18.

waiting. If this plan is to be executed, it requires a more

:13:19.:13:24.

successful Labour opposition. A conflict getting a lot of traction

:13:25.:13:29.

until they become a credible electoral prospects. Hadn't been

:13:30.:13:34.

convicted of the idea that John Cobb and could win next election? I think

:13:35.:13:40.

we're in an interesting position. But me put it no stronger than that

:13:41.:13:44.

and I do think, like many other Labour Party spokespeople... I think

:13:45.:13:51.

we get the gist of that from the hesitation.

:13:52.:13:53.

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer are joined by Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale, Ukip's Patrick O'Flynn, Swedish MP Laila Naraghi and Douglas Murray of the Henry Jackson Society. Sam Coates, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards are on the political panel.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS