26/03/2017 Sunday Politics Scotland


26/03/2017

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer discuss the Westminster attack with Commons leader David Lidington and head of Europol Rob Wainwright. Plus Ukip leader Paul Nuttall.


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Transcript


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It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:43.:00:46.

The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,

:00:47.:00:49.

but do the security services have the resources and

:00:50.:00:51.

We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.

:00:52.:00:54.

As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of

:00:55.:00:57.

Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power

:00:58.:01:03.

Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job

:01:04.:01:07.

done" - we'll speak to him and the party's

:01:08.:01:09.

And coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland...

:01:10.:01:13.

Labour prepares to discuss Kezia Dugdale's federal

:01:14.:01:14.

I'll be asking - is the idea really a runner?

:01:15.:01:29.

And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political

:01:30.:01:32.

panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee

:01:33.:01:35.

and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

:01:36.:01:41.

First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack

:01:42.:01:43.

The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament,

:01:44.:01:49.

one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital.

:01:50.:01:53.

His target was the very heart of our democracy,

:01:54.:01:55.

the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres

:01:56.:01:58.

of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers.

:01:59.:02:01.

Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's

:02:02.:02:05.

close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity

:02:06.:02:07.

at the time, the outcome could have been even worse.

:02:08.:02:15.

Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we

:02:16.:02:23.

be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary

:02:24.:02:27.

response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as

:02:28.:02:30.

prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive

:02:31.:02:35.

way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and

:02:36.:02:38.

national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to

:02:39.:02:43.

whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put

:02:44.:02:46.

more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor

:02:47.:02:52.

sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder

:02:53.:02:56.

whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around

:02:57.:03:01.

the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack,

:03:02.:03:05.

as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on

:03:06.:03:09.

social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the

:03:10.:03:13.

attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to

:03:14.:03:19.

the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions.

:03:20.:03:22.

Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while

:03:23.:03:27.

an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the

:03:28.:03:32.

weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the

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world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it

:03:36.:03:40.

stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for

:03:41.:03:45.

years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the

:03:46.:03:49.

chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal,

:03:50.:03:54.

so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of

:03:55.:03:59.

London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that

:04:00.:04:03.

the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this

:04:04.:04:09.

is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think

:04:10.:04:15.

from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a

:04:16.:04:19.

poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to

:04:20.:04:24.

imagine the emergency services and local people, international

:04:25.:04:27.

visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our

:04:28.:04:34.

Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards

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shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice.

:04:39.:04:42.

It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values

:04:43.:04:46.

that is attacking. OK, thank you for that.

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So, four days after the attack, what more do we know

:04:50.:04:52.

The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains

:04:53.:04:55.

Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation.

:04:56.:05:00.

According to a police timeline, that's how long it took

:05:01.:05:05.

Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster

:05:06.:05:07.

to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter...

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to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard

:05:15.:05:18.

The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster.

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The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying:

:05:30.:05:34.

"We would like to express our gratitude to the people

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who were with Keith in his last moments and who were

:05:37.:05:39.

There was nothing more you could have done,

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you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone."

:05:43.:05:45.

Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him.

:05:46.:05:48.

Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp

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The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging

:05:52.:05:58.

There should be no place for terrorists to hide.

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We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp,

:06:05.:06:06.

and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret

:06:07.:06:09.

place for terrorists to communicate with each other.

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It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just

:06:13.:06:16.

listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing,

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legally, through warrantry, but in this situation

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we need to make sure that our intelligence services

:06:28.:06:29.

have the ability to get into situations like encrypted

:06:30.:06:31.

She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions

:06:32.:06:35.

at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out

:06:36.:06:37.

But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be

:06:38.:06:41.

..not the policy implications that will echo the loudest.

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We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol,

:06:50.:06:52.

the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright.

:06:53.:06:57.

What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I

:06:58.:07:05.

can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation,

:07:06.:07:08.

because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but

:07:09.:07:12.

to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80

:07:13.:07:16.

counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year,

:07:17.:07:20.

using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the

:07:21.:07:24.

very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also

:07:25.:07:28.

tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring

:07:29.:07:32.

this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made

:07:33.:07:40.

available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do

:07:41.:07:42.

we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired

:07:43.:07:47.

or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being

:07:48.:07:51.

led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate

:07:52.:07:54.

on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the

:07:55.:08:00.

attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in

:08:01.:08:04.

Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin

:08:05.:08:07.

Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last

:08:08.:08:13.

year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved

:08:14.:08:18.

have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of

:08:19.:08:24.

them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians

:08:25.:08:28.

in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a

:08:29.:08:32.

gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of

:08:33.:08:35.

attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at

:08:36.:08:39.

least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well.

:08:40.:08:43.

Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those

:08:44.:08:47.

involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is

:08:48.:08:51.

going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we?

:08:52.:08:56.

Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least

:08:57.:09:01.

the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the

:09:02.:09:06.

only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see

:09:07.:09:11.

in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for

:09:12.:09:16.

example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the

:09:17.:09:21.

security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels,

:09:22.:09:25.

Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that

:09:26.:09:30.

could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at

:09:31.:09:35.

least the first indications from what police are saying in London,

:09:36.:09:39.

these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of

:09:40.:09:44.

the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised

:09:45.:09:48.

community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a

:09:49.:09:53.

dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised

:09:54.:09:57.

individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult

:09:58.:10:01.

when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that

:10:02.:10:06.

they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the

:10:07.:10:10.

work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices

:10:11.:10:13.

that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home

:10:14.:10:18.

Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps

:10:19.:10:23.

like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they

:10:24.:10:27.

encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services

:10:28.:10:30.

to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for

:10:31.:10:37.

that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years

:10:38.:10:41.

there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are

:10:42.:10:45.

becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more

:10:46.:10:49.

and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators,

:10:50.:10:52.

and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the

:10:53.:10:56.

ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not

:10:57.:11:00.

when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board,

:11:01.:11:05.

for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have

:11:06.:11:09.

to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of

:11:10.:11:12.

these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a

:11:13.:11:15.

more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is

:11:16.:11:23.

certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying

:11:24.:11:28.

to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree

:11:29.:11:36.

certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative

:11:37.:11:39.

solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide

:11:40.:11:43.

but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done

:11:44.:11:49.

to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of

:11:50.:11:51.

communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our

:11:52.:11:56.

lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much.

:11:57.:11:58.

Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House

:11:59.:12:01.

What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of

:12:02.:12:08.

Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very

:12:09.:12:11.

courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to

:12:12.:12:20.

be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident

:12:21.:12:25.

of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but

:12:26.:12:28.

also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already

:12:29.:12:35.

under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and

:12:36.:12:41.

security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get

:12:42.:12:49.

reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary

:12:50.:12:52.

security director, and just as security matters in parliament are

:12:53.:12:55.

kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as

:12:56.:12:59.

a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the

:13:00.:13:04.

issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling

:13:05.:13:08.

events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their

:13:09.:13:11.

lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is

:13:12.:13:17.

it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate,

:13:18.:13:20.

where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening

:13:21.:13:26.

for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led

:13:27.:13:31.

to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last

:13:32.:13:38.

couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have

:13:39.:13:42.

actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would

:13:43.:13:46.

expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security

:13:47.:13:50.

matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at

:13:51.:13:56.

all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the

:13:57.:14:01.

security authorities and in particular for the police and direct

:14:02.:14:06.

command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it

:14:07.:14:12.

because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers

:14:13.:14:16.

this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no

:14:17.:14:20.

position to comment on the details of the operation but my

:14:21.:14:23.

understanding is that the number of people available is what the police

:14:24.:14:29.

and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and

:14:30.:14:33.

that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it

:14:34.:14:38.

not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left

:14:39.:14:44.

unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so

:14:45.:14:48.

that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able

:14:49.:14:55.

to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that

:14:56.:15:01.

case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't

:15:02.:15:05.

yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody

:15:06.:15:07.

involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who

:15:08.:15:13.

was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time.

:15:14.:15:19.

We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were

:15:20.:15:23.

concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the

:15:24.:15:29.

attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with

:15:30.:15:33.

a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it

:15:34.:15:38.

is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be

:15:39.:15:42.

pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it.

:15:43.:15:46.

To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the

:15:47.:15:50.

witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what

:15:51.:15:55.

happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any

:15:56.:15:58.

changes need to be made in light of that.

:15:59.:16:02.

We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence

:16:03.:16:11.

Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced

:16:12.:16:15.

the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details

:16:16.:16:20.

but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have

:16:21.:16:24.

been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has

:16:25.:16:29.

been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a

:16:30.:16:35.

so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the

:16:36.:16:39.

Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this

:16:40.:16:49.

simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that

:16:50.:16:53.

is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader

:16:54.:17:01.

of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals

:17:02.:17:07.

who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by

:17:08.:17:13.

the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in

:17:14.:17:17.

public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been

:17:18.:17:22.

reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it

:17:23.:17:25.

raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions

:17:26.:17:32.

should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are

:17:33.:17:39.

kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both

:17:40.:17:43.

in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the

:17:44.:17:49.

palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the

:17:50.:17:53.

perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was

:17:54.:18:00.

a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at

:18:01.:18:04.

carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed

:18:05.:18:17.

guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to

:18:18.:18:22.

look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing.

:18:23.:18:25.

There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't

:18:26.:18:29.

know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will

:18:30.:18:33.

find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If

:18:34.:18:40.

you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to

:18:41.:18:43.

be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed

:18:44.:18:49.

accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about

:18:50.:18:53.

lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is

:18:54.:18:57.

important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview

:18:58.:19:01.

of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered

:19:02.:19:06.

view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will

:19:07.:19:11.

be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins

:19:12.:19:16.

our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on

:19:17.:19:21.

Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper

:19:22.:19:25.

that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's

:19:26.:19:30.

not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts

:19:31.:19:37.

of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the

:19:38.:19:42.

commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime

:19:43.:19:47.

Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has

:19:48.:19:53.

been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It

:19:54.:19:57.

doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational

:19:58.:20:05.

mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an

:20:06.:20:09.

agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies

:20:10.:20:15.

that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police

:20:16.:20:18.

cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all

:20:19.:20:24.

countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it

:20:25.:20:28.

will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that?

:20:29.:20:35.

Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context

:20:36.:20:40.

of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the

:20:41.:20:44.

departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply

:20:45.:20:49.

not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a

:20:50.:20:54.

discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we

:20:55.:20:57.

all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we

:20:58.:21:02.

will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is

:21:03.:21:04.

possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The

:21:05.:21:21.

question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the

:21:22.:21:24.

subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel?

:21:25.:21:26.

Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have

:21:27.:21:32.

to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate

:21:33.:21:37.

the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once

:21:38.:21:41.

David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the

:21:42.:21:47.

national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady

:21:48.:21:52.

progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good

:21:53.:21:56.

piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a

:21:57.:22:04.

substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out

:22:05.:22:09.

some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU

:22:10.:22:14.

programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50

:22:15.:22:21.

billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So

:22:22.:22:26.

50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get

:22:27.:22:32.

into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting

:22:33.:22:37.

very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum

:22:38.:22:44.

there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of

:22:45.:22:49.

separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find

:22:50.:22:52.

out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The

:22:53.:23:03.

Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which

:23:04.:23:09.

is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision

:23:10.:23:13.

of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in

:23:14.:23:17.

a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity

:23:18.:23:22.

and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the

:23:23.:23:26.

Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on

:23:27.:23:31.

Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will

:23:32.:23:36.

see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine

:23:37.:23:41.

thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII

:23:42.:23:46.

powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to

:23:47.:23:52.

avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities

:23:53.:23:59.

Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory

:24:00.:24:04.

footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those

:24:05.:24:10.

EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another

:24:11.:24:18.

regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to

:24:19.:24:22.

have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European

:24:23.:24:33.

regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come

:24:34.:24:39.

in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those

:24:40.:24:43.

powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the

:24:44.:24:46.

parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And

:24:47.:24:52.

if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the

:24:53.:24:57.

Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary

:24:58.:25:01.

legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the

:25:02.:25:05.

constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill

:25:06.:25:11.

and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House

:25:12.:25:14.

of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those

:25:15.:25:20.

powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision.

:25:21.:25:26.

David Lidington, thank you for being with us.

:25:27.:25:27.

So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell.

:25:28.:25:30.

He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party

:25:31.:25:32.

almost three years ago, but yesterday announced

:25:33.:25:33.

that he was quitting to sit as an independent.

:25:34.:25:35.

His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying,

:25:36.:25:37.

"Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster".

:25:38.:25:40.

But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell

:25:41.:25:44.

criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as

:25:45.:25:46.

Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage

:25:47.:25:51.

was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell

:25:52.:25:54.

opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign.

:25:55.:26:00.

Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage

:26:01.:26:02.

accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances

:26:03.:26:04.

of being awarded a knighthood, writing that,

:26:05.:26:06.

Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday,

:26:07.:26:14.

Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU.

:26:15.:26:16.

Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have

:26:17.:26:19.

decided that I will be leaving Ukip."

:26:20.:26:22.

When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014

:26:23.:26:24.

he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election.

:26:25.:26:27.

"I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring

:26:28.:26:30.

This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election.

:26:31.:26:39.

We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall.

:26:40.:26:45.

Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your

:26:46.:26:55.

only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at

:26:56.:27:01.

a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not

:27:02.:27:06.

surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the

:27:07.:27:10.

past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage

:27:11.:27:14.

certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime

:27:15.:27:18.

which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had

:27:19.:27:22.

done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering

:27:23.:27:26.

over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a

:27:27.:27:33.

more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he

:27:34.:27:36.

expected to be pushed out your national executive committee

:27:37.:27:40.

tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to

:27:41.:27:43.

answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the

:27:44.:27:47.

last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue

:27:48.:27:54.

surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came

:27:55.:27:59.

out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to

:28:00.:28:03.

answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did

:28:04.:28:11.

jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out

:28:12.:28:15.

of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear

:28:16.:28:23.

is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the

:28:24.:28:28.

party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks,

:28:29.:28:33.

you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a

:28:34.:28:38.

pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party,

:28:39.:28:46.

doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to

:28:47.:29:02.

rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over

:29:03.:29:06.

the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will

:29:07.:29:10.

rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have

:29:11.:29:14.

a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post

:29:15.:29:19.

Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he

:29:20.:29:23.

said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the

:29:24.:29:28.

skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't

:29:29.:29:33.

it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November

:29:34.:29:39.

the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the

:29:40.:29:42.

party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem

:29:43.:29:46.

money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look

:29:47.:29:52.

forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit

:29:53.:29:56.

test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have

:29:57.:30:03.

been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you

:30:04.:30:06.

will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No,

:30:07.:30:13.

not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past,

:30:14.:30:17.

he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that

:30:18.:30:23.

but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for

:30:24.:30:26.

the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be

:30:27.:30:36.

interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster

:30:37.:30:41.

attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's

:30:42.:30:45.

extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like

:30:46.:30:51.

Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I

:30:52.:30:55.

personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I

:30:56.:30:59.

will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem

:31:00.:31:04.

within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the

:31:05.:31:09.

way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr

:31:10.:31:12.

Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the

:31:13.:31:29.

problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate

:31:30.:31:31.

communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would

:31:32.:31:33.

extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in

:31:34.:31:36.

Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But,

:31:37.:31:39.

as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme

:31:40.:31:42.

vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question

:31:43.:31:46.

too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get

:31:47.:31:50.

you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in

:31:51.:31:54.

Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has

:31:55.:31:58.

left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to

:31:59.:32:05.

go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people

:32:06.:32:07.

in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should

:32:08.:32:11.

have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon.

:32:12.:32:17.

Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio.

:32:18.:32:24.

Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are

:32:25.:32:31.

becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted

:32:32.:32:34.

myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to

:32:35.:32:39.

trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons

:32:40.:32:43.

resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the

:32:44.:32:47.

democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran

:32:48.:32:51.

parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here,

:32:52.:32:57.

I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage

:32:58.:33:00.

has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants

:33:01.:33:08.

to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going

:33:09.:33:13.

to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his

:33:14.:33:17.

constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr

:33:18.:33:21.

Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from

:33:22.:33:28.

Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the

:33:29.:33:30.

opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not

:33:31.:33:36.

always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an

:33:37.:33:40.

e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back,

:33:41.:33:46.

overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you

:33:47.:33:53.

are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won,

:33:54.:33:58.

Andrew. You knew a few months ago she was going to do that. On June

:33:59.:34:02.

the 24th I had serious thought about making the move but I wanted to be

:34:03.:34:06.

absolutely certain that Article 50 would be triggered and I think it is

:34:07.:34:11.

right. This is why ultimately Ukip exists, to get us out of the

:34:12.:34:14.

European Union. We should be cheerful instead of attacking one

:34:15.:34:18.

another, this is our moment, we made it happen. Did you try to sideline

:34:19.:34:23.

the former Ukip leader during the referendum campaign? Not at all, I

:34:24.:34:28.

have been open about this, the idea I have been involved in subterfuge.

:34:29.:34:33.

You try to sideline him openly rather than by subterfuge? I made

:34:34.:34:38.

the point we needed to be open, broad and progressive to win. I made

:34:39.:34:41.

it clear in my acceptance speech in Clacton and when I said that Vote

:34:42.:34:45.

Leave should get designation that the only way Euroscepticism would

:34:46.:34:49.

win was by being more than just angry natives. What do you make of

:34:50.:34:55.

that? I am over the moon that we have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas

:34:56.:35:03.

I rarely have that much confidence in Theresa May because history

:35:04.:35:05.

proves that she is good at talking the talk but in walking the walk

:35:06.:35:09.

often fails, and I'm disappointed because I wanted Douglas to be part

:35:10.:35:13.

of the post Brexit Ukip where we move forward with a raft of domestic

:35:14.:35:17.

policies and go on to take seat at Westminster. Do you think you try to

:35:18.:35:22.

sideline Mr Farage during the referendum campaign? Vote Leave

:35:23.:35:26.

certainly didn't want Nigel Farage front of house, we know that. They

:35:27.:35:32.

freely admit that, they admitted it on media over the past year. Nigel

:35:33.:35:38.

still was front of house because he is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for

:35:39.:35:42.

Nigel, as I said earlier, we wouldn't have at the referendum and

:35:43.:35:45.

we wouldn't have achieved Brexit because Nigel Farage appeals, like

:35:46.:35:51.

Ukip to a certain section of the population. If our primary motive is

:35:52.:35:55.

to get us out of the European Union, why are we having this row, why

:35:56.:35:59.

can't we just celebrate what is happening on Wednesday? We can, but

:36:00.:36:03.

you are far more confident that Theresa May will deliver on this

:36:04.:36:07.

than I am. Ukip may have been a single issue pressure group ten

:36:08.:36:11.

years ago, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you joined in

:36:12.:36:14.

2014, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you stood for in

:36:15.:36:19.

2015 at the general election, and I'm disappointed that you have left

:36:20.:36:23.

us when we are moving onto an exciting era. What specifically

:36:24.:36:27.

gives you a lack of confidence in Mrs May's ability deliver? Her

:36:28.:36:32.

record as Home Secretary, she said she would deal with radical Islam,

:36:33.:36:36.

nothing happened, she said she would get immigration down to the tens of

:36:37.:36:40.

thousands, last year in her last year as Home Secretary as city the

:36:41.:36:44.

size of Newcastle came to this country, that is not tens of

:36:45.:36:47.

thousands. I think we need to take yes for an answer eventually. The

:36:48.:36:51.

problem with some Eurosceptics is they never accept they have won the

:36:52.:36:55.

argument. We have one, Theresa May is going to do what we have wanted

:36:56.:37:00.

her to do, let's be happy, let's celebrate that. But let's wait until

:37:01.:37:04.

she starts bartering things away, until she betrays our fishermen,

:37:05.:37:08.

just as other Conservative prime ministers have done in the past.

:37:09.:37:12.

Let's wait until we end up still paying some sort of membership fee

:37:13.:37:16.

into the European Union or a large divorce bill. That is not what

:37:17.:37:20.

people voted for on June the 23rd and if you want to align yourself

:37:21.:37:28.

with that, you are clearly not a Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip

:37:29.:37:32.

to have relevance, it has to go wrong? I'm confident politics will

:37:33.:37:37.

come back to our terms but -- our turf but there will be a post Brexit

:37:38.:37:41.

Ukip that will stand for veterans, book slashing the foreign aid bill

:37:42.:37:44.

and becoming the party of law and order. Finally, to you, Douglas

:37:45.:37:50.

Carswell, you say you have confidence in Mrs May to deliver in

:37:51.:37:55.

the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. You backed her, you were

:37:56.:38:01.

Conservative, you believe that Brexit will be delivered under a

:38:02.:38:04.

Conservative Government. Why would you not bite the 2020 election as a

:38:05.:38:10.

Conservative? I feel comfortable being independent. If you join a

:38:11.:38:13.

party you have to agree to a bunch of stuff I would not want to agree

:38:14.:38:16.

with. I am comfortable being independent. So you will go into

:38:17.:38:25.

2020 as an independent? If you look at the raising of funds, what Vote

:38:26.:38:29.

Leave did as a pop-up party... We only have five seconds, will you

:38:30.:38:33.

fight as an independent in the next general election? Let's wait and

:38:34.:38:38.

see. Very well! Thank you both very much.

:38:39.:38:48.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:38:49.:38:50.

Kezia Dugdale wants a federal UK but will Labour help stop another

:38:51.:38:56.

independence referendum any time soon?

:38:57.:38:59.

I'll be asking Scotland's only remaining Labour MP Ian Murray.

:39:00.:39:02.

Why can't the groups tasked with tackling wildlife crime agree

:39:03.:39:05.

And in the week of the attack on Westminster, how do

:39:06.:39:12.

we balance our safety with civil liberties?

:39:13.:39:20.

Mass surveillance has been proven time and again not to prevent

:39:21.:39:25.

attacks like what happened on Wednesday. What does work is

:39:26.:39:28.

targeted surveillance where you have someone in mind, you have a

:39:29.:39:33.

committee that they could be doing, criminal activity, anything, but it

:39:34.:39:36.

is targeted and when the resources go into that it is much better.

:39:37.:39:40.

They say a week is a long time in politics and in the coming week

:39:41.:39:43.

we're expecting some of the most significant political

:39:44.:39:45.

On Tuesday the Scottish Parliament is expected to back a call for

:39:46.:39:49.

And on Wednesday the Prime Minister, Theresa May, will trigger Article

:39:50.:39:53.

50, kicking off the process of the UK leaving

:39:54.:39:55.

The Welsh First Minister Carwyn Jones has warned of disengagement

:39:56.:39:58.

moving from Brussels to London after Brexit has been completed.

:39:59.:40:01.

He spoke to BBC Wales' political editor Nick Servini.

:40:02.:40:12.

How concerned are you about the Brexit negotiations? I am concerned

:40:13.:40:20.

because I want to make sure that the UK Government is listening and

:40:21.:40:23.

understands that the UK is not what it was in 1972, one government and

:40:24.:40:27.

one country but a partnership of four nations that work together for

:40:28.:40:31.

a common purpose and that must be deflected in the UK's strategy

:40:32.:40:36.

before it leaves. You have hinted at this engagement with Brussels could

:40:37.:40:39.

move to London after the Brexit this engagement with Brussels could

:40:40.:40:45.

process. Do you feel that this could result in a greater degree of

:40:46.:40:50.

nationalism in Wales and what does it mean for Scotland? I think there

:40:51.:40:55.

is a severe danger that if the UK Government mishandled this, that it

:40:56.:41:00.

will pose a threat to the rest of the UK. It does not have to but it

:41:01.:41:04.

depends how they handle it. For example, they take the view that

:41:05.:41:07.

where power is written to Brussels, they will rest with Westminster. We

:41:08.:41:11.

where power is written to Brussels, disagree with that, we think in

:41:12.:41:16.

areas like agriculture, fisheries, those powers should bypass London

:41:17.:41:19.

and come straight to Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland. The

:41:20.:41:27.

idea of a federal UK put forward by Kezia Dugdale, the Scottish Labour

:41:28.:41:30.

Leader and yourself, will it make a difference? It will make a big

:41:31.:41:35.

difference. The big question is the English question, England is so big,

:41:36.:41:39.

how do you resolve the question of devolution in England? Many will ask

:41:40.:41:45.

what does it mean for England. People in England must understand

:41:46.:41:48.

they are part of the partnership as well and that is why this week

:41:49.:41:56.

coming we will have the Labour Party Constitutional Convention in Cardiff

:41:57.:41:58.

looking at what it means in the 21st century to have governments in

:41:59.:42:01.

Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland and what it means for

:42:02.:42:03.

English regional governments. Now, as Carwyn Jones

:42:04.:42:05.

was saying there, some major names in Labour -

:42:06.:42:07.

past and present, including Scottish Labour leader

:42:08.:42:09.

Kezia Dugdale and former Prime Minister Gordon Brown -

:42:10.:42:12.

will meet in Cardiff this week Scotland's only Labour MP

:42:13.:42:14.

Ian Murray is in our Edinburgh Good morning. Good morning. You said

:42:15.:42:32.

in your speech to the Labour Party, the Scottish Labour Party Conference

:42:33.:42:38.

a few weeks ago that the SNP has absolutely no mandate for another

:42:39.:42:43.

independence referendum. Given it says in black and white in the

:42:44.:42:47.

manifesto that they have, what were you talking about? Well, it is quite

:42:48.:42:53.

clear that in 2014, 80 5% of the Scottish population voted in the

:42:54.:42:57.

independence referendum and 55% voted to remain as part of the UK.

:42:58.:43:02.

What it said in the SNP manifesto is that they would ask for the power to

:43:03.:43:06.

call another referendum should there be a material change in

:43:07.:43:09.

circumstances and this is what this debate is about, it is about how the

:43:10.:43:14.

UK manages itself any constitutional sense post-Brexit and that is what

:43:15.:43:17.

Carwyn Jones has just said, we must deal with the English question...

:43:18.:43:23.

But even from how you have just described the SNP manifesto, they

:43:24.:43:31.

clearly have a mandate. The boat on Wednesday for the Scottish

:43:32.:43:33.

Parliament comes up then and they have to get the powers to call a

:43:34.:43:37.

second independence referendum. We should take this off the table, I do

:43:38.:43:40.

not think that the Scottish people wanted at the moment and the polls

:43:41.:43:43.

have shown consistently that the Scottish people do not wanted and I

:43:44.:43:47.

think the way that Carwyn Jones, Sadiq Khan and Kezia Dugdale

:43:48.:43:54.

talking... I understand that you do not want another referendum and I

:43:55.:43:57.

understand you think it does not address the main issue, the point I

:43:58.:44:01.

am getting at is that, you know, we operate in politics with the idea

:44:02.:44:04.

that party say things in the manifesto and then get elected, they

:44:05.:44:09.

then have a mandate to do that, you seem to be questioning that of the

:44:10.:44:13.

SNP. Well, if it is about people going with their manifesto

:44:14.:44:16.

commitments, surely the Green Party will not support the SNP on Tuesday

:44:17.:44:20.

when it comes to the port in the Scottish Parliament because they had

:44:21.:44:23.

a plethora of things in the manifesto that would trigger a

:44:24.:44:27.

second independence referendum, one being 1 million signatures, that is

:44:28.:44:31.

clearly not the case. There is no mandate to bring forward another

:44:32.:44:36.

independence referendum when we have already had 85% voting just a few

:44:37.:44:40.

years ago and what was classed as a once in a lifetime, generation

:44:41.:44:43.

opportunity for Scotland to have independence and we should not bring

:44:44.:44:45.

that uncertainty about the Scottish economy. That is what is important.

:44:46.:44:50.

Should the Scottish Parliament vote on Tuesday for a Section 30 order or

:44:51.:44:55.

another referendum, does that mean there is a mandate for another

:44:56.:45:00.

referendum? That depends on what you look at in terms of the Scottish

:45:01.:45:04.

Parliament's mandate. The Scottish Parliament will have voted but the

:45:05.:45:07.

Parliament has voted in the last year against fracking, against the

:45:08.:45:10.

SNP's Management of education, against cuts to the NHS and the

:45:11.:45:15.

First Minister has completely ignored those. It seems only six

:45:16.:45:18.

occasions that the government has been defeated at the Scottish

:45:19.:45:22.

Parliament, the First Minister has ignored that. The mandate for the

:45:23.:45:25.

Scottish Parliament appears to only suit them at certain times.

:45:26.:45:31.

Westminster should not be blocking, however, another referendum in

:45:32.:45:35.

Scotland, but the timing of that and when it should happen is the key

:45:36.:45:39.

component. Jeremy Corbyn was interviewed by Robert Preston this

:45:40.:45:45.

morning. He said of the timing that it could not be worse and implied

:45:46.:45:50.

that his position seems similar to that of Theresa May's which is I am

:45:51.:45:54.

not ruling out a referendum, it should not be entirely blocked by

:45:55.:45:57.

Westminster but you are not having one at the moment. Presumably on

:45:58.:46:04.

this issue, you and Jeremy Corbyn would agree with each other. Our

:46:05.:46:07.

position is exactly seen as the majority of the Scottish people who

:46:08.:46:10.

do not want another independence referendum. We are also saying that

:46:11.:46:13.

if Brexit is going to bring uncertainty to the country, which

:46:14.:46:16.

undoubtedly it will and studies have shown it well in terms of the

:46:17.:46:21.

economy, in terms of the way that post-Brexit Button looks, we should

:46:22.:46:27.

not compound that uncertainty with another independence referendum that

:46:28.:46:29.

has been made clear by the Fraser of an -- which has been made clear by

:46:30.:46:33.

the Fraser of Allander Institute last week that that would certainly

:46:34.:46:37.

be the case. If there is another referendum at some point, what

:46:38.:46:41.

should be on the paper? There was some talk actual conference that

:46:42.:46:46.

perhaps your idea of a federal duty or some variant of it should be on

:46:47.:46:49.

perhaps your idea of a federal duty the ballot paper. Actually, the

:46:50.:46:54.

discussions are much more nuanced than that in terms of where we

:46:55.:46:56.

currently are in this particular process. We will have to speak in

:46:57.:47:01.

Wales, we will have Carwyn Jones, Kezia Dugdale, Gordon Brown, the

:47:02.:47:06.

Shadow Welsh Secretary Christina Rees, Andy Burnham who is standing

:47:07.:47:13.

in Manchester, another candidate in Merseyside and a host of people in

:47:14.:47:17.

England who will be looking at how we should plan the constitutional

:47:18.:47:19.

settlement in the post-Brexit Briton, that is an incredibly

:47:20.:47:22.

important step forward because breaking up the UK is not in the

:47:23.:47:26.

best interest of either the UK or Scotland, so we need another

:47:27.:47:31.

formulation of pixels forward as to what a post-Brexit Briton looks

:47:32.:47:34.

like. This is an exciting way to do it and it is great that Kezia

:47:35.:47:37.

Dugdale has brought this forward and that everyone else has bought into

:47:38.:47:40.

it but we have to develop that process as to what it means and let

:47:41.:47:43.

people into that process, which is very important. I come back to the

:47:44.:47:48.

point, would you support having that, what you have just described,

:47:49.:47:52.

whatever comes out of it, as an option, if there is another

:47:53.:47:55.

independence referendum at some point? It is too early to say on

:47:56.:47:59.

this particular issues, this is a process that will run through all

:48:00.:48:03.

for a fairly medium to long term period of time because it is about

:48:04.:48:06.

having a People's Convention, letting the people into this process

:48:07.:48:13.

as to how they want a post-Brexit process to be governed. It could

:48:14.:48:17.

look at the voting system, a very clear way of looking at a

:48:18.:48:21.

post-Brexit Briton. This is not just a Scottish issue, this is about

:48:22.:48:24.

dealing with 85% of the country which is England and making sure

:48:25.:48:30.

that Scottish devolution, demolition and Wales and Northern Ireland all

:48:31.:48:34.

come together under an agreement. I understand that on Tuesday they will

:48:35.:48:40.

decide regards whether they should be another referendum but it does

:48:41.:48:43.

not necessarily mean but if you want independence or not. It is too early

:48:44.:48:46.

to have that kind of discussion, I am not sure whether the Section 30

:48:47.:48:52.

order discussions will include any other option other than EDS or No

:48:53.:48:57.

vote, or to remain or leave. We need to concentrate on what we can offer

:48:58.:49:03.

the Scottish people in terms of, and also the English, Welsh and Northern

:49:04.:49:06.

Irish people, in terms of what this agreement means. It is people coming

:49:07.:49:10.

together in Wales next week and there is a fundamental

:49:11.:49:12.

transformation of the way that the UK works, we are coming together to

:49:13.:49:15.

discuss what works best for the regions and nations of the UK to

:49:16.:49:21.

make sure that a post-Brexit Button works for everyone and that the four

:49:22.:49:24.

nations work together as a family. If what you have just described to

:49:25.:49:27.

us is to be credible as an alternative to the proposals of the

:49:28.:49:31.

SNP, there must be some credible prospect of a Labour government

:49:32.:49:34.

coming along to implement it, whether it be at Westminster or

:49:35.:49:40.

Edinburgh or both. You seem so disunited at the moment. Again, when

:49:41.:49:45.

Jeremy Corbyn was here a few weeks ago, it took him a few days to get

:49:46.:49:49.

the lines right on your attitude to a referendum, you tweeted out, and

:49:50.:49:57.

you get -- you did not just tell us can ever made you what our position

:49:58.:50:02.

is, you said why he would not be joining Jeremy Corbyn's Shadow

:50:03.:50:05.

Cabinet, he has given a good example, he is destroying the Labour

:50:06.:50:10.

Party. How can anyone watching this take seriously the right gear that

:50:11.:50:14.

Labour will deliver a federal Britain when you cannot even be

:50:15.:50:17.

civil to your own party leader when he is addressing your own party

:50:18.:50:22.

conference? You have to look at what is happening next week, the entire

:50:23.:50:25.

Labour families coming together the Shadow Welsh Secretary is meeting at

:50:26.:50:33.

the UK level. Kezia Dugdale, Carwyn Jones, they are all coming together.

:50:34.:50:38.

Why did you send that that tweet? The Labour family is coming

:50:39.:50:41.

together... But why did you send out that tweet? Jeremy Corbyn has

:50:42.:50:46.

clarified his position with regards to what he said... You said he was

:50:47.:50:51.

destroying the Labour Party, is he destroying the Labour Party? I have

:50:52.:50:55.

destroying the Labour Party, is he consistently said, Gordon, on your

:50:56.:51:00.

show and many others that the public decide who the leaders are of

:51:01.:51:03.

political parties because they decide at the ballot box and that

:51:04.:51:07.

elections and the approval ratings of Jeremy Corbyn are not

:51:08.:51:09.

particularly positive and he has to come forward but the strategy, along

:51:10.:51:14.

with his colleagues in parliament in the Labour Party. I look forward to

:51:15.:51:17.

seeing that the strategy of which these discussions of a federal

:51:18.:51:21.

post-Brexit Briton are part of that strategy because it is equally

:51:22.:51:30.

exciting time to look at what powers the regions and nations of the UK

:51:31.:51:33.

can get. This is the basic problem that you have, I'm afraid. Saying

:51:34.:51:35.

that you would encourage Jeremy Corbyn to come up with the strategy

:51:36.:51:38.

is not the same thing as saying, as you said at the time, he was in

:51:39.:51:42.

Scotland addressing a conference. This man is destroying the Labour

:51:43.:51:46.

Party. Well, he got it wrong and he has clarified his position. We are

:51:47.:51:50.

on the same page now in terms of where we are for our attitude to a

:51:51.:51:54.

second independence referendum and I cannot understand why they cannot

:51:55.:51:57.

get into a conversation about positive this federal agenda could

:51:58.:52:01.

possibly be. The entire Labour families coming together, it is

:52:02.:52:06.

unprecedented, next week in Cardiff, to look at what we can do in terms

:52:07.:52:09.

of the constitutional settlement across the whole UK post-Brexit.

:52:10.:52:13.

That is the entire family coming together with the positive strategy

:52:14.:52:16.

for the future that Jeremy is driving forward with members of the

:52:17.:52:21.

Shadow Cabinet being represented. That is a positive unifying thing

:52:22.:52:24.

that we can take forward with great enthusiasm and I am delighted that

:52:25.:52:28.

Jeremy is back. This sounds wonderful. I assume you will now

:52:29.:52:36.

agreed to become shadow Scottish Secretary? I have not agreed that

:52:37.:52:41.

and I would have to have a long conversation with Jeremy Corbyn.

:52:42.:52:43.

and I would have to have a long Would you consider it? Of course, I

:52:44.:52:46.

have never ruled that out. But we must look at the big issues and I am

:52:47.:52:51.

involved in these processes such as federalism, I will win the Scottish

:52:52.:52:54.

Labour Party Conference and having working" Carwyn Jones, Gordon Brown

:52:55.:52:57.

and John Prescott on taking some of this forward with Kezia Dugdale. We

:52:58.:53:03.

are all involved in this particular process, the semantics in terms of

:53:04.:53:11.

where we are going post-Brexit are minor in terms of the fact that we

:53:12.:53:13.

have an exciting opportunity post-Brexit. We will have to leave

:53:14.:53:16.

it there, thank you for joining us, Ian Murray.

:53:17.:53:31.

But Holyrood's Environment Committee says that an alarming distrust

:53:32.:53:31.

were tensions between some groups on the Partnership For Action

:53:32.:53:32.

The SNP MSP Graeme Dey is the committee's convenor

:53:33.:53:36.

and I spoke to him just before we came on air.

:53:37.:54:08.

First of all you have written this letter to Roseanna Cunningham saying

:54:09.:54:25.

you are concerned about protecting wildlife because the various groups

:54:26.:54:28.

involved don't seem to get on with each other or agree with each other.

:54:29.:54:31.

Explain briefly if you could, what the problem is? This is not a new

:54:32.:54:38.

problem. Essentially there is attention and suspicion among some

:54:39.:54:41.

of the groups, we need to work together to this issue. The point

:54:42.:54:47.

the committee is making is that they need to be prepared to call operate

:54:48.:54:53.

more fully with each other and Police Scotland. But the RSPB is one

:54:54.:55:00.

organisation that has admitted it is not following the protocols that are

:55:01.:55:07.

agreed. It is quoted in your letter, is that lets say a raptor is a

:55:08.:55:10.

legally killed or trapped, they are not going to go straight to the big

:55:11.:55:14.

house as they put it and say, we are investigating theirs. Because it

:55:15.:55:16.

would alert, it could have been the egg house that was responsible, it

:55:17.:55:23.

could alert them that the courts of the raptor. They see, call operate,

:55:24.:55:29.

could alert them that the courts of yes, but up to a point? Yes. On one

:55:30.:55:32.

level you can understand where they are coming from. But this language

:55:33.:55:35.

and approach is not helpful. The way we have worked up until now hasn't

:55:36.:55:41.

addressed the problem. The protocols are there to help bring about the

:55:42.:55:48.

change. The danger of course is if the RS PPE persist with this

:55:49.:55:59.

approach, you may find that the landowners, the gamekeepers use this

:56:00.:56:05.

as a reason or excuse to walk away from it all. That would be

:56:06.:56:08.

unhelpful. We are not just pointing the finger at the RSPB. If you look

:56:09.:56:11.

at the SGA, the landowners. It is great we are seeing more condemning

:56:12.:56:13.

as such activities but we need more cooperation with Police Scotland,

:56:14.:56:15.

proactive wobbler oration to move forward on this. If I was the RSPB,

:56:16.:56:19.

I would say that is all very well. But what you are saying that just

:56:20.:56:21.

because the landowners and gamekeepers agree to have meetings,

:56:22.:56:23.

that means we should not investigate them properly. That is not what we

:56:24.:56:26.

are seeing that at all. This is an unacceptable practice. They do not

:56:27.:56:31.

want to alert the people who made quite possibly have been

:56:32.:56:33.

responsible. That is what they are saying. That is the point they make.

:56:34.:56:36.

The question here is how do we move forward. What do we need to tackle

:56:37.:56:38.

this? There are a lot of additional resources needed to the Police

:56:39.:57:01.

Scotland and Crown Office to get raptor prosecution. There is a lot

:57:02.:57:03.

of other wildlife crime, a lot of different types. The point the

:57:04.:57:06.

committee is making, and it may be simplistic on one level, we cannot

:57:07.:57:09.

have this constant tension and battling between these sectors. We

:57:10.:57:11.

did appear to be making progress and a year, 18 months ago. We appear to

:57:12.:57:17.

be taking a step back now. There is no point interesting, we need to

:57:18.:57:20.

work together. Is it just the RSPB or are there other bodies at odds

:57:21.:57:26.

with each other? I think the kind of tension around raptor persecution is

:57:27.:57:32.

the main area of difficulties. We have seen, for example, as well,

:57:33.:57:35.

Scottish badgers have had an issue with Police Scotland whereby they

:57:36.:57:42.

would assert that there were 40 claims in a particular period but

:57:43.:57:44.

yet only five have been recorded as such. However, those two groups,

:57:45.:57:47.

Police Scotland and Scottish badgers are

:57:48.:58:05.

working together very well since the committee have been session in last

:58:06.:58:09.

year. I think there is a will there amongst most of the stakeholders to

:58:10.:58:11.

work together and work with Police Scotland. I think everyone wants to

:58:12.:58:15.

tackle those, I think we need to have a different approach. I accept

:58:16.:58:22.

the point is that the RSPB are making and you are making today,

:58:23.:58:24.

what else do we need to do to move forward with this? Something like a

:58:25.:58:30.

third of alleged wildlife crime is in fact poaching. Many people, again

:58:31.:58:32.

as you acknowledge and the letter, many people will see that as a claim

:58:33.:58:35.

against property. It has nothing to do with wildlife protection. It is

:58:36.:58:38.

whether the salmon is Cobb I approach which would otherwise be

:58:39.:58:45.

cot by a gamekeeper. -- cot by a butcher. Wildlife crime is wildlife

:58:46.:58:52.

crime. I think it is indicative of the challenges that are faced in

:58:53.:58:54.

crime. I think it is indicative of tackling these issues. This figure

:58:55.:59:07.

for 2014-15, 121 poaching claims. 58% of those resulted in a

:59:08.:59:14.

conviction. I think the point there is the is where you have a good

:59:15.:59:17.

example of cooperation between Gillies and Police Scotland. These

:59:18.:59:28.

are difficult crimes to address and that

:59:29.:59:28.

is why the best approach we have got is

:59:29.:59:42.

everyone working together. And the public drawing attention to police.

:59:43.:59:43.

One of the groups which is tasked with preventing wildlife

:59:44.:59:45.

Its head of investigations is Ian Thomson and he's

:59:46.:59:49.

RSPB has welcomed many initiatives brought forward by various Scottish

:59:50.:00:08.

governments. We are a long-standing partner and one of the founder

:00:09.:00:10.

governments. We are a long-standing members. What he is getting at is

:00:11.:00:11.

that you admitted before his committee that you have not be the

:00:12.:00:19.

protocols that were laid down by this pause organisation. To be

:00:20.:00:31.

honest we are being represented there. There is a satellite protocol

:00:32.:00:43.

that says that if a bird goes down, the organisations monitoring that

:00:44.:00:46.

animals should have ordered. But it was saying that you might be

:00:47.:00:49.

informing landowners who were responsible. What the protocol is a

:00:50.:00:57.

dispensation as the circumstances of our bird disappearing or at all

:00:58.:00:58.

suspicious, FA board goes down in suspicious

:00:59.:01:50.

circumstances, what the protocol says is that landowners should not

:01:51.:01:54.

be informed. We are following the protocols to the letter, so I am

:01:55.:01:58.

actually disappointed that the committee have got the impression

:01:59.:02:02.

that we are doing otherwise. What is it you think that they want you to

:02:03.:02:09.

do? I think they want us to follow the protocol. The protocol is

:02:10.:02:13.

currently up for review in that it was written back in 2013 and all the

:02:14.:02:17.

Paws partners on the group have submitted their comments to the

:02:18.:02:23.

secretariat and we will discuss what the actual protocol needs changed.

:02:24.:02:28.

But the protocol clearly states that when the board goes down, the first

:02:29.:02:32.

thing that should happen is that the police must be notified. We are

:02:33.:02:37.

running out of time. Is this problem, particularly with birds of

:02:38.:02:41.

prey, is it getting worse or better in your view because the data seemed

:02:42.:02:45.

to be unclear for reasons that remain somewhat mysterious? We

:02:46.:02:51.

should not be too fixated on a body count, what we have to go back is

:02:52.:02:56.

the population surveys and the science. That is very clearly

:02:57.:02:58.

the population surveys and the showing that over the extensive

:02:59.:03:03.

areas of uplands, particularly in areas managed for intensive crows

:03:04.:03:06.

shooting, boards like the golden eagle, hen harrier and the red Kite

:03:07.:03:13.

continued to do very badly. It is difficult to establish annual trends

:03:14.:03:20.

because the strands are finding a dead bird are very minimal. -- the

:03:21.:03:23.

trends. We will have to be it there, thank you for joining us.

:03:24.:03:27.

Time to look back, and forwards to the next seven days,

:03:28.:03:29.

Now before we speak to our guests, the terrorist attack in London

:03:30.:03:34.

on Wednesday has inevitably dominated the week's news.

:03:35.:03:36.

It comes just a few months after the UK Government gained

:03:37.:03:39.

enhanced spying powers in the form of the Investigatory Powers Act.

:03:40.:03:41.

This morning the Home Secretary said that messaging

:03:42.:03:44.

With the pressure on to prevent future attacks, where does

:03:45.:03:48.

the balance now lie between security and civil liberties?

:03:49.:03:50.

A ruthless attack right at the heart of our depth -- democratic

:03:51.:04:05.

institutions. It took just a few minutes for one man armed with just

:04:06.:04:09.

a car and a knife to demonstrate just how vulnerable our cities can

:04:10.:04:16.

be. Hundreds of people witnessed the events, including this journalist

:04:17.:04:17.

who was attending a security conference. We were half way through

:04:18.:04:23.

the afternoon session, indeed, one of the speakers at that precise

:04:24.:04:26.

point in time was talking about the radicalisation process ironically,

:04:27.:04:30.

when the proceedings were interrupted and we were ushered Stal

:04:31.:04:33.

Mr by armed response police officers. David reports on conflicts

:04:34.:04:38.

around the world, he has said that a number of fatalities from terror

:04:39.:04:42.

attacks in Western Europe remain small and although he thinks it is

:04:43.:04:45.

correct to look at civil liberties with a fresh eye, he is wary of the

:04:46.:04:50.

UK following some other countries' leads. In Europe, in Western Europe,

:04:51.:04:56.

many governments such as France and Belgium, the greater controls there

:04:57.:04:59.

at the moment and yes, there has been a lot of opposition amongst the

:05:00.:05:02.

population towards those increased controls. In other parts of the

:05:03.:05:06.

world it is a lot more heavy-handed. We are talking about places like

:05:07.:05:11.

Turkey or further afield into the Middle East itself. In an era of

:05:12.:05:17.

European peace, few countries have been left untouched white terrorist

:05:18.:05:21.

attacks. This was the attack on Glasgow Airport ten years ago.

:05:22.:05:28.

Nobody knows what's going on. It is no secret that the mood music has

:05:29.:05:32.

changed from Europe. Life does go on but we are aware of Iraqi threat.

:05:33.:05:39.

Our cities are full of memorials to the armies that fought the battle is

:05:40.:05:43.

for Britain over the centuries. But fighting that takes place within our

:05:44.:05:49.

cities is often unexpected. Despite the shock of sudden violence, we

:05:50.:05:51.

should try to keep things in perspective, says this philosopher.

:05:52.:05:57.

I think the amount of focus that has been put on attacks like the

:05:58.:06:03.

Westminster attack, which although, of course, very serious and the

:06:04.:06:05.

profound tragedy for those involved and for the families of those

:06:06.:06:11.

involved, involved a man killing four people and I think it is

:06:12.:06:14.

important to get that into proportion. And we should take a

:06:15.:06:19.

lesson from past security clamp-downs, such as in Northern

:06:20.:06:25.

Ireland. It was internment, for example, that much I do know and

:06:26.:06:29.

that seems like a serious violation of civil liberties and the points

:06:30.:06:33.

that I have made... But they did it work, that is the point? It is not

:06:34.:06:38.

clear to me that it did work. I think that actions such as that

:06:39.:06:45.

contributed. It is very hard to know what the counterfactual is, in other

:06:46.:06:48.

words, it is difficult to know how things would have turned out had

:06:49.:06:51.

that not been done. It can seem obvious to some that it did work

:06:52.:06:55.

because potentially dangerous people were put behind bars but that is not

:06:56.:07:00.

all that we need to take into account in a sensible assessment as

:07:01.:07:03.

to whether it works, the effect it would have had on the Republican

:07:04.:07:08.

national population in Northern Ireland would also need to be taken

:07:09.:07:12.

into account. One of the government's current weapons in the

:07:13.:07:16.

fight against terrorism is the Investigatory Powers Act, dubbed

:07:17.:07:21.

this diverse charter. It became law three months ago along for Bolt

:07:22.:07:24.

interception of private communications. The public are not

:07:25.:07:27.

aware of is ramifications see some campaigners. Mass surveillance time

:07:28.:07:32.

and again has been proven to not prevent attacks such as what

:07:33.:07:35.

happened on Wednesday. What works is targeted surveillance where you have

:07:36.:07:39.

someone in mind, you have activity that they are doing, it could be

:07:40.:07:43.

criminal activity, anything, but it is actually targeted and when the

:07:44.:07:47.

resources go into that it is much better. Campaigners have launched a

:07:48.:07:51.

legal challenge to the enhanced by powers of the government but they do

:07:52.:07:53.

not know just how much public support they can tap into.

:07:54.:07:56.

So, with me this week is the former Labour MP

:07:57.:08:00.

Gemma Doyle and Richard Walker, the founding and consulting

:08:01.:08:02.

Gemma you were in Parliament when this happened, please tell us about

:08:03.:08:14.

it. Yes, I was about to walk out of Carriage Gate through the turnstile

:08:15.:08:19.

when I saw smoke, which I assumed was perhaps an explosion in

:08:20.:08:25.

Westminster Tube because that will it look like it was coming from. I

:08:26.:08:29.

stopped with my colleague to see what was actually happening and then

:08:30.:08:34.

saw people running and screaming. Then the commotion at the gate,

:08:35.:08:37.

which was the attacker coming through. He was armed with knives.

:08:38.:08:44.

Were you one of the people who was effectively kept in the area for

:08:45.:08:51.

several hours? Indeed, we heard, because of how close we were to

:08:52.:08:56.

Carriage Gate, we did not have a particularly good view and when I

:08:57.:09:03.

heard the gunshots I assumed it was an attacker with a gun, so I took my

:09:04.:09:07.

colleague and ran into the building and did not stop and told the... And

:09:08.:09:14.

be gotten into the chapel, because I thought it would be safe. Parliament

:09:15.:09:21.

moved over to Westminster Abbey and came out about eight o'clock that

:09:22.:09:26.

evening and I just have to say how enormously grateful I think all of

:09:27.:09:29.

us who were in the building that the are two PC Keith Palmer, who stood

:09:30.:09:34.

in front of a man with two knives and prevented him from getting any

:09:35.:09:40.

father. My condolences are with his family. Richard, the debate this

:09:41.:09:46.

morning is now turning to one about what could have been done, if

:09:47.:09:50.

anything, to stop this. Particularly the suggestion that the Home

:09:51.:09:54.

Secretary, Amber Rudd, who said earlier that these things like

:09:55.:10:02.

WhatsApp, which may be that Khalid Masood perhaps used before the

:10:03.:10:06.

attack, they are encrypted, she is suggesting that there should be some

:10:07.:10:09.

sort of access so that we know what is going on, what do you make of it.

:10:10.:10:22.

That is correct, but you do not want to impose Draconian measures on

:10:23.:10:24.

members of the public or undermine the democratic society and that we

:10:25.:10:29.

do the work of the terrorists for them. We must make sure that the

:10:30.:10:34.

rights of people to privacy are protected and I think while there is

:10:35.:10:39.

absolutely a case for maybe allowing security forces to look at some

:10:40.:10:45.

messages, I do not think it is a valid argument to allow Evelyn's

:10:46.:10:49.

messages to be open to slippers, for instance. I do not think that is the

:10:50.:10:53.

way to go, that is a dangerous development. Gemma Doyle, what do

:10:54.:11:01.

you think, I did a quick poll in the office and many of us your views

:11:02.:11:06.

WhatsApp, you can share messages, that is why they do it, she messages

:11:07.:11:11.

in groups, but is there an argument for saying that should not be

:11:12.:11:13.

encrypted with the kind of extremely high security that is currently

:11:14.:11:18.

used? I think the security services should have access to all of the

:11:19.:11:23.

communications that they need to be able to keep us safe. The real

:11:24.:11:27.

challenge and the thing that our security services are very, very

:11:28.:11:33.

good at is disrupting networks and stopping attacks before they happen

:11:34.:11:37.

and many people actually are surprised that we have not had an

:11:38.:11:42.

attack like we saw this week in recent years and that is because of

:11:43.:11:46.

how good our security services are at stopping these attacks. But to do

:11:47.:11:50.

that they need to have the powers to look at things like services like

:11:51.:11:55.

WhatsApp. I use it, lots of people use it and I want the police and our

:11:56.:11:58.

security services to have those powers. Quick change of subject, the

:11:59.:12:04.

vote on independence in the Scottish Parliament this week. I was not sure

:12:05.:12:07.

what Ian Murray was saying, he seemed to suggest that because

:12:08.:12:12.

partly because the Greens had it in the manifesto and have not followed

:12:13.:12:15.

other things that it was not legitimate. Clearly does not come as

:12:16.:12:21.

a surprise to anybody that the Green Party are supporters of

:12:22.:12:24.

independence, they were in the first independence campaign. But the

:12:25.:12:29.

argument is that they did not have it in the manifesto and the

:12:30.:12:36.

entitlement for the -- the entire admin for the SNP is that the debt

:12:37.:12:42.

habit in the years. I think it is utterly unreasonable to argue that

:12:43.:12:49.

they do not have a mandate for this. The SNP have huge support for a

:12:50.:12:54.

referendum. It is in their manifesto, they have huge support in

:12:55.:12:57.

the country and it is ridiculous to suggest there is no mandate for it.

:12:58.:13:03.

Gemma Doyle, your party, your ex-party, it will have to get its

:13:04.:13:09.

act together. Ian Murray is treating one minute that Jeremy Corbyn is

:13:10.:13:12.

destroying the Labour Party then trying to claim that it is all

:13:13.:13:15.

absolutely fabulous because they are having a meeting in Cardiff, that

:13:16.:13:21.

seems more Monty Python than serious politics, is it not? It is still my

:13:22.:13:25.

party, just to clarify and Ian Murray is a huge asset to the Labour

:13:26.:13:29.

Party in Scotland, whether he is the Shadow Secretary of State or not.

:13:30.:13:33.

Look, there is no doubt there have been challenges to what Jeremy

:13:34.:13:39.

Corbyn had said. But the point is that, insults like this, he did not

:13:40.:13:43.

have to put out that street, he could have just said, this is our

:13:44.:13:46.

position. People like Ian Murray will not have said something like

:13:47.:13:50.

that likely, there is a problem with the Bidisha in the Labour Party at

:13:51.:13:53.

the moment. Unfortunately we are out of time.

:13:54.:13:56.

I'll be back at the same time next week.

:13:57.:14:00.

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer discuss the Westminster attack with Commons leader David Lidington and head of Europol Rob Wainwright. Plus Ukip leader Paul Nuttall talks about Douglas Carswell about quitting the party. Panellists include Janan Ganesh from the Financial Times, Polly Toynbee from The Guardian and Toby Young from The Spectator.


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