14/05/2017 Sunday Politics Scotland


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS


14/05/2017

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 14/05/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:38.:00:41.

Theresa May unveils plans to build many more affordable homes

:00:42.:00:45.

in England, but with no price tag, timetable or building targets -

:00:46.:00:48.

Labour takes aim at the City with what it calls a Robin Hood Tax

:00:49.:00:54.

to fund public services, but will traders just

:00:55.:00:56.

Don't look at the polls - Jeremy Corbyn, at least,

:00:57.:01:00.

insists he can win this election - so which way will

:01:01.:01:03.

We'll hear from a focus group in Leeds.

:01:04.:01:08.

And on Sunday Politics Scotland, A good we'll be asking how we can

:01:09.:01:11.

best protect ourselves from future cyber attacks.

:01:12.:01:12.

And talking to the Scottish Greens' Patrick Harvie

:01:13.:01:14.

in the first of our leader interviews.

:01:15.:01:27.

And with me, our own scientifically selected focus group

:01:28.:01:30.

of political pundits - they're not so much

:01:31.:01:33.

undecided as clueless - Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott

:01:34.:01:35.

They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

:01:36.:01:42.

So, we've got two new policies this morning.

:01:43.:01:44.

Labour say they will introduce a financial transaction tax

:01:45.:01:46.

if they win the general election and what they're calling

:01:47.:01:48.

"the biggest crackdown on tax avoidance in the country's history".

:01:49.:01:51.

The Conservatives say they'll work with local authorities in England

:01:52.:01:53.

to build council houses with the right to buy.

:01:54.:01:55.

Theresa May says the policy "will help thousands of people

:01:56.:01:58.

get on the first rung of the housing ladder".

:01:59.:02:05.

Steve, what do you make of them? I have been conditioned after doing

:02:06.:02:13.

tax and spend debates in pre-election periods for many

:02:14.:02:17.

decades to treat policy is not as literal but as arguments. In other

:02:18.:02:22.

words if you look back to 2015 the Tory plan to wipe out the deficit

:02:23.:02:27.

was never going to happen and yet it framed and large event. In that

:02:28.:02:30.

sense the Robin Hood tax is a sensible move for Labour to make at

:02:31.:02:35.

this point because it is part of a narrative of reconfiguring taxation

:02:36.:02:39.

to be fair. Treating it as an argument rather than something that

:02:40.:02:45.

would happen in day one of Labour government is sensible. In terms of

:02:46.:02:48.

building houses Theresa May said right from the beginning when she

:02:49.:02:52.

was in Number Ten that there is a housing deficit in this country

:02:53.:02:55.

rather than the economic deficit George Osborne was focusing on, and

:02:56.:03:00.

this is an example of trying to get house-building going. It seems

:03:01.:03:03.

entirely sensible, not sure how it works with right to buy but again as

:03:04.:03:07.

framing of a 90 minute it makes sense. I disagree with Steve on one

:03:08.:03:17.

front which is how sensible Theresa May's policy is on the housing

:03:18.:03:22.

announcement. I think more broadly these two announcements have

:03:23.:03:24.

something in common which is that over the next 24 hours both will

:03:25.:03:31.

probably unravel in different ways. Ye of little faith! The Mayor of

:03:32.:03:34.

London has already said he doesn't agree with this, and when people see

:03:35.:03:39.

the actual impact of what looks like a populist tax will very potentially

:03:40.:03:45.

affect people's pensions, it might become a lot less popular. On the

:03:46.:03:50.

Tory housing plans, I think it is difficult to imagine how they are

:03:51.:03:55.

going to implement this huge, what looks like a huge land and property

:03:56.:04:00.

grab. Through compulsory purchase orders, which are not a simple

:04:01.:04:04.

instrument. They say they will change the law but really the idea

:04:05.:04:08.

of paying people below the market value for their assets is not

:04:09.:04:12.

something I can see sitting easily with Tory backbenchers or the Tories

:04:13.:04:19.

in the House of Lords. Tom. Both would appear superficially to be

:04:20.:04:24.

appealing to traditional left and traditional right bases. What is

:04:25.:04:30.

more Tory than right to buy, then councils sell on these houses, and

:04:31.:04:37.

Labour slapping a massive tax on the city. The Tories' plan, I would say

:04:38.:04:42.

look a bit deeper and all of the Tory narrative from the last six

:04:43.:04:46.

years which hasn't worked well is talking about the private sector

:04:47.:04:50.

increasing supply in the market. Now Mrs May is talking about the role

:04:51.:04:56.

for the state after all so this is the shift creeping in. On the Labour

:04:57.:05:01.

transaction tax, one of the most interesting things I heard in days

:05:02.:05:09.

was from Paul Mason, former BBC correspondent, now a cog in Easter

:05:10.:05:12.

extreme. On Newsnight he said don't worry about whether the Labour

:05:13.:05:17.

manifesto will add up, I'm promising it will, the bigger Tory attack line

:05:18.:05:21.

should be what on earth will be the macroeconomic effect of taking so

:05:22.:05:30.

much tax out of the system. Very well, we shall see. At least we have

:05:31.:05:31.

some policies to talk about. Now, on Tuesday Labour

:05:32.:05:34.

will launch its manifesto. But we've already got a pretty good

:05:35.:05:36.

idea of what's in it - that's because most of its contents

:05:37.:05:39.

were leaked to the media Labour has a variety of spending

:05:40.:05:41.

pledges including an extra ?6 billion a year for the NHS,

:05:42.:05:50.

an additional ?8 billion for social care over the lifetime

:05:51.:05:53.

of the next parliament, as well as a ?250 billion

:05:54.:05:55.

in infrastructure over The party will support the renewal

:05:56.:05:57.

of the Trident submarine system, about its use, and the party

:05:58.:06:06.

will hold a strategic defence and security review immediately

:06:07.:06:09.

after the election. In terms of immigration,

:06:10.:06:12.

Labour will seek "reasonable management of migration",

:06:13.:06:14.

but it will not make "false Elsewhere, university tuition

:06:15.:06:16.

fees will be abolished, and the public sector pay cap,

:06:17.:06:22.

which limits pay rises for public sector workers

:06:23.:06:25.

to 1%, will be scrapped. The party also aims to renationalise

:06:26.:06:29.

the railways, the Royal Mail and the National Grid,

:06:30.:06:31.

as well as creating at least one A senior Labour backbencher

:06:32.:06:39.

described it to the Sunday Politics as a manifesto for a leadership

:06:40.:06:44.

who don't "give a toss about the wider public",

:06:45.:06:47.

and several other Labour candidates told us they thought it

:06:48.:06:49.

had been deliberately leaked by the leadership,

:06:50.:06:51.

with one suggesting the leak was intended to "bounce

:06:52.:06:55.

the National Executive" And we're joined now from Salford

:06:56.:06:57.

by the Shadow Business Secretary, Welcome to the programme. The draft

:06:58.:07:06.

manifesto proposed to renationalise the number of industry. You will

:07:07.:07:12.

wait for the franchises to run out rather than buy them out at the

:07:13.:07:15.

moment so can you confirm the railways will not be wholly

:07:16.:07:21.

nationalised until 2030, after three Labour governments, and Jeremy

:07:22.:07:26.

Corbyn will be 80? I'm not going to comment on leaks, you will just have

:07:27.:07:30.

to be patient and wait to see what is in our manifesto. But you have

:07:31.:07:37.

already announced you will nationalise the railways, so tell me

:07:38.:07:41.

about it. We have discussed taking the franchises into public ownership

:07:42.:07:45.

as they expire, however the detail will be set out in the manifesto so

:07:46.:07:50.

I'm not prepared to go into detail until that policy is formally laid

:07:51.:07:55.

out on Tuesday. That doesn't sound very hopeful but let's carry on. You

:07:56.:08:01.

will also nationalise the National Grid, it has a market capitalisation

:08:02.:08:06.

of ?40 billion, why do you want to nationalise that? Again, I'm not

:08:07.:08:11.

going to speculate on leaks, you will just have to be patient. But

:08:12.:08:15.

you said you will nationalise the National Grid so tell's Y. The leaks

:08:16.:08:21.

have suggested but you will just have to wait and see what the final

:08:22.:08:26.

manifesto states on that one. So is it a waste of time me asking you how

:08:27.:08:31.

you will pay for something that costs 40 billion? Be patient, just

:08:32.:08:36.

couple of days to go, but what I would say is there is growing

:08:37.:08:41.

pressure from the public to reform the utilities sector. The

:08:42.:08:45.

Competition and Markets Authority stated in 2015 that bill payers were

:08:46.:08:50.

paying over till debt -- ?2 billion in excess of what they should be

:08:51.:08:53.

paying so there is a clear need for reform. The bills we get are from

:08:54.:09:00.

the energy companies, you are not going to nationalise them, you are

:09:01.:09:03.

going to nationalise the distribution company and I wondered

:09:04.:09:08.

what is the case for nationalising the distribution company? As I said,

:09:09.:09:13.

our full plans will be set out on Tuesday. In relation to the big six

:09:14.:09:17.

energy companies, we know in recent years they have been overcharging

:09:18.:09:24.

customers... There's no point in answering questions I am not asking.

:09:25.:09:29.

I am asking what is the case for nationalising the National Grid?

:09:30.:09:33.

There is a case for reforming the energy sector as a whole and that

:09:34.:09:37.

looks at the activities of the big six companies and it will look at

:09:38.:09:41.

other aspects too. You will have to be patient and wait until Tuesday.

:09:42.:09:46.

other aspects too. You will have to What about the Royal Mail? Again,

:09:47.:09:51.

you will have to wait until Tuesday. Why can't you just be honest with

:09:52.:09:55.

the British voter? We know you are going to do this and you have a duty

:09:56.:10:03.

to explain. I'm not even arguing whether it is right or wrong. The

:10:04.:10:09.

Royal Mail was sold off and we know it was sold under value and British

:10:10.:10:13.

taxpayers have a reason to feel aggrieved about that. There is a

:10:14.:10:17.

long-term strategy that would ensure the Royal Mail was classified as a

:10:18.:10:20.

key piece of infrastructure but the details of that will be set out in

:10:21.:10:26.

our manifesto because we want to ensure businesses and households

:10:27.:10:29.

ensure the best quality of service when it comes to their postal

:10:30.:10:34.

providers. You plan to borrow an extra 25 billion per year, John

:10:35.:10:39.

McDonnell has already announced this, on public investment, on top

:10:40.:10:43.

of the around 50 billion already being planned for investment. You

:10:44.:10:49.

will borrow it all so that means, if you can confirm, that many years

:10:50.:10:56.

after the crash by 2021, Labour government would still be borrowing

:10:57.:11:03.

75 billion a year. Is that correct? We have set out ?250 billion of

:11:04.:11:09.

capital investment, and ?250 billion for a national investment bank. Our

:11:10.:11:13.

financial and fiscal rules dictate we will leave the Government in a

:11:14.:11:17.

state of less debt than we found it at the start of the parliament so we

:11:18.:11:20.

won't increase the national debt at the end of our Parliamentary term.

:11:21.:11:27.

How can you do that if by 2021 you will still be borrowing around 75

:11:28.:11:31.

billion a year, which is more than we borrow at the moment? The 500

:11:32.:11:37.

billion figure is set out over a period of ten years, it's a figure

:11:38.:11:42.

that has been suggested by Peter Helm from Oxford University as a

:11:43.:11:45.

figure that is necessary to bring us in line with other industrial

:11:46.:11:50.

competitors. Similar figures have been suggested by groups such as the

:11:51.:11:58.

CBI. By the way I have not included all 500 billion, just the 250

:11:59.:12:01.

billion on public spending, not the extra money. You talk about the

:12:02.:12:06.

fiscal rules. The draft manifesto said you will leave debt as a

:12:07.:12:11.

proportion of trend GDP law at the end of each parliament, you have

:12:12.:12:18.

just said a version of that. What is trend GDP? In clear terms we will

:12:19.:12:22.

ensure the debt we acquire will be reduced by the end of the

:12:23.:12:26.

parliament. We won't leave the Government finances in a worse state

:12:27.:12:33.

than we found them. OK, but what is trend GDP? Our rule is we will

:12:34.:12:37.

ensure public sector net debt is less than we found it when we came

:12:38.:12:42.

to power in Government on June the 8th. But that is not what your draft

:12:43.:12:50.

manifesto says. I'm not going to comment on leaks, you are just going

:12:51.:12:53.

to have to wait until Tuesday to look at the fine detail and perhaps

:12:54.:12:59.

we will have another chat then. You have published your plans for

:13:00.:13:02.

corporation tax and you will increase it by a third and your

:13:03.:13:06.

predictions assumed that will get an extra 20 billion a year by the end

:13:07.:13:11.

of the parliament. But that assumes the companies don't change their

:13:12.:13:15.

behaviour, that they move money around, they leave the country or

:13:16.:13:20.

they generate smaller profits. Is that realistic? You are right to

:13:21.:13:25.

make that point and you will see when we set out our policies and

:13:26.:13:29.

costings in the manifesto that we haven't spent all of the tax take.

:13:30.:13:35.

We have allowed for different differentials and potential changes

:13:36.:13:37.

in market activity because that would be approved and direction to

:13:38.:13:42.

take. But corporation tax is allowed to be cut in France and the United

:13:43.:13:50.

States, it's only 12.5% in Dublin. Many companies based in Britain are

:13:51.:13:53.

already wondering whether they should relocate because of Brexit,

:13:54.:13:58.

if you increase this tax by a third couldn't that clinch it for a number

:13:59.:14:03.

of them? No, we will still be one of the lowest corporation tax rate in

:14:04.:14:08.

the G7. Let's look at what's important for business. Cutting

:14:09.:14:13.

corporation tax in itself doesn't improve productivity, or business

:14:14.:14:17.

investment and there's no suggestion cutting corporation tax in recent

:14:18.:14:20.

years has achieved that. Businesses need an investment in tools in

:14:21.:14:26.

things they need to thrive and prosper, they also need to reduce

:14:27.:14:31.

the burden at the lower end of the tax scale, before we get to the

:14:32.:14:36.

Prophet stage. One key example is business rates. We have made the

:14:37.:14:43.

proposal to government to in -- exclude machinery so businesses can

:14:44.:14:46.

invest and grow operations in the future but the Government refused.

:14:47.:14:53.

Corporation tax has been cut since 2010. When it was 28% it brought in

:14:54.:15:03.

?43 billion a year. Now it is down to 20%, it brought in ?55 billion a

:15:04.:15:09.

year. By cutting it in the last year, it brought in 21% more, so

:15:10.:15:16.

what is the problem? It might have brought in more money, but has it

:15:17.:15:20.

increased business investment in the long term. It is not just about

:15:21.:15:26.

cutting corporation tax, but it is on the ability of businesses to

:15:27.:15:30.

thrive and prosper. Business investment in the UK is below are

:15:31.:15:36.

industrial competitors. Wages are stagnating which doesn't indicate

:15:37.:15:42.

businesses are not doing well. Let me get it right, you are arguing if

:15:43.:15:47.

we increase business tax by a third, that will increase investment? I am

:15:48.:15:54.

not saying that. You just did. Know I didn't, I said reducing business

:15:55.:16:02.

tax isn't enough, you have to invest in the things businesses need to

:16:03.:16:05.

thrive and prosper. You have also got to lessen the burden on

:16:06.:16:17.

business. You have announced a financial transaction tax. Your own

:16:18.:16:22.

labour Mayor of London said he has vowed to fight it. He said I do not

:16:23.:16:27.

want a unilateral tax on business in our city, so why are you proceeding

:16:28.:16:32.

with it? This isn't a new initiative, there is a growing

:16:33.:16:36.

global pressure to make sure we have fairness in the financial sector.

:16:37.:16:40.

Ordinary British people are paying for our banking crisis they didn't

:16:41.:16:46.

cause. Another important point, stamp duty reserve tax was brought

:16:47.:16:51.

in in the 1600 and there have been little reforms. The sector has

:16:52.:16:55.

changed and we have do provide changes to the system for that

:16:56.:17:00.

change. High-frequency trading where we have a state of affairs where a

:17:01.:17:04.

lot of shares are traded on computers within milliseconds. We

:17:05.:17:09.

need a tax system that keeps up with that. What happens if they move the

:17:10.:17:16.

computers to another country? Emily Thornaby said this morning, other

:17:17.:17:21.

countries had already introduced a financial transaction tax, what

:17:22.:17:23.

other countries have done that? There are ten countries looking at

:17:24.:17:32.

introducing a transaction tax. Which ones have done it so far? They will

:17:33.:17:39.

be later announcing a final package, going through the finer detail at

:17:40.:17:43.

the moment. But the European Commission tried to get this done in

:17:44.:17:48.

2011 and it still hasn't happened in any of these countries. But you are

:17:49.:17:53.

going to go ahead unilaterally and risk these businesses, which

:17:54.:17:58.

generate a lot of money, moving to other jurisdictions. There is not a

:17:59.:18:02.

significant risk of that happening. The stamp duty reserve tax is levied

:18:03.:18:13.

at either where the person or company is domiciled or where the

:18:14.:18:18.

instrument is issued rather than worth the transaction takes place.

:18:19.:18:23.

This tax in itself is not enough to make people leave this country in

:18:24.:18:26.

terms of financial services because there is more to keep these

:18:27.:18:30.

businesses here in terms of the investment we are making, the

:18:31.:18:35.

economy that Labour will build, in terms of productivity improvement we

:18:36.:18:39.

will see. Thank you very much, Rebecca Long-Bailey.

:18:40.:18:43.

And listening to that was the Home Office Minister, Brandon Lewis.

:18:44.:18:49.

Over the years, you have got corporation tax by 20%, it is lower

:18:50.:18:55.

than international standards, so why are so many global companies who

:18:56.:19:02.

make money out of Great Britain, still not paying 20%? It is one of

:19:03.:19:07.

the problems with the point Labour were making and Rebecca could not

:19:08.:19:10.

answer, these companies can move around the world. One of the

:19:11.:19:16.

important things is having a low tax economy but these businesses, it

:19:17.:19:20.

encourages them to come at a rate they are prepared to pay. People may

:19:21.:19:25.

say they are right, if they were paying 19, 20% incorporation tax.

:19:26.:19:31.

But they are not. Google runs a multi-million pound corporation and

:19:32.:19:40.

did not pay anywhere near 20%. There are companies that are trading

:19:41.:19:44.

internationally and that is why we have to get this work done with our

:19:45.:19:52.

partners around the world. Has there been an improvement? It is more than

:19:53.:19:56.

they were paying before. Whether it is Google or any other company,

:19:57.:20:00.

alongside them being here, apart from the tax they pay, it is the

:20:01.:20:06.

people they employ. The deal was, if you cut the business tax, the

:20:07.:20:10.

corporation tax on profits, we would get more companies coming here and

:20:11.:20:15.

more companies paying their tax. It seems it doesn't matter how low, a

:20:16.:20:19.

number of companies just pay a derisory amount and you haven't been

:20:20.:20:25.

able to change that. As you outlined, the income taken from the

:20:26.:20:28.

changing corporation tax has gone up. That is from established British

:20:29.:20:36.

companies, not from these international companies. It is

:20:37.:20:39.

because more companies are coming here and paying tax. That is a good

:20:40.:20:43.

thing. There is always more to do and that is why we want to crack

:20:44.:20:49.

down. In the last few weeks in the Finnish Parliament, Labour refused

:20:50.:20:53.

to put to another ?8.7 billion of tax take we could have got by

:20:54.:20:59.

cracking down further. You claim to have made great progress on cracking

:21:00.:21:04.

down on people and companies to pay the tax they should. But the tax gap

:21:05.:21:09.

is the difference between what HMRC takes in and what it should take in.

:21:10.:21:15.

It has barely moved in five years, so where is the progress? He have

:21:16.:21:21.

brought in 150 billion more where we have cracked down on those tax

:21:22.:21:24.

schemes. The gap is still the same as it was five years ago. It's gone

:21:25.:21:35.

from 6.8, 26.5. It has gone down. The Prime Minister and the

:21:36.:21:37.

Chancellor said they want to continue work on to get more money

:21:38.:21:42.

on these companies while still having a competitive rate to

:21:43.:21:48.

encourage these companies. While big business and the wealthy continue to

:21:49.:21:53.

prosper, the Office for Budget Responsibility tell us those on

:21:54.:21:56.

average earnings in this country will be earning less in real terms

:21:57.:22:02.

by 2021 than they did in 2008. How can that be fair? I don't see it

:22:03.:22:08.

that way. I haven't seen the figures you have got. What I can say to you,

:22:09.:22:12.

Andrew, we have made sure the minimum wage has gone up, the actual

:22:13.:22:18.

income tax people pay has gone down. So in their pocket, real terms,

:22:19.:22:27.

people have more money. You are the self-styled party of work. We keep

:22:28.:22:29.

emphasising work. Under your government you can work for 13 years

:22:30.:22:33.

and still not earn any more at the end of it, and you did at the start.

:22:34.:22:40.

Where is the reward for effort in that? I have not seen those figures.

:22:41.:22:45.

There are 2.8 million more people, more jobs in economy than there was.

:22:46.:22:51.

1000 jobs every day and people are working and developing through their

:22:52.:22:55.

careers. This is what I thought was odd in what Rebecca was saying,

:22:56.:22:59.

investing in people is what the apprenticeship levy is about,

:23:00.:23:04.

companies are investing their works force to take more opportunities

:23:05.:23:09.

that there. We are talking about fairness, politicians talk about

:23:10.:23:12.

hard-working people and we know the average earnings are no higher than

:23:13.:23:17.

they were in 2008. We know the pay and bonuses of senior executives

:23:18.:23:22.

have continued to grow and the Institute for Fiscal Studies has

:23:23.:23:25.

shown 3 million of the poorest households will lose an average of

:23:26.:23:31.

?2500 a year in the next Parliament, benefits frozen, further sanctions

:23:32.:23:36.

kick in. 3 million of the poorest losing 2500. Under the Tories, one

:23:37.:23:41.

law for the rich and another for the poor. It is quite wrong. First of

:23:42.:23:47.

all, we have got to be fair to the taxpayer who is funding the welfare

:23:48.:23:52.

and benefit system. Which is why the welfare was right. Get more people

:23:53.:23:57.

in work and then it is important to get more people upscaling. As that

:23:58.:24:05.

allowance rises, people have more of the money they earn in their pocket

:24:06.:24:10.

to be able to use in the economy. People will be worse off. 2500,

:24:11.:24:16.

among the poorest already. They will have more money in their pocket as

:24:17.:24:22.

we increase the allowance before people pay tax. We have seen

:24:23.:24:28.

millions of people coming out of tax altogether. The reason I ask these

:24:29.:24:32.

questions, you and the Prime Minister go on and on about the just

:24:33.:24:37.

about managing classes. I am talking about the just about managing and

:24:38.:24:41.

below that. It is all talk, you haven't done anything for them. We

:24:42.:24:45.

have made sure they have an increasing minimum wage, it has gone

:24:46.:24:50.

up more under us than any other previous government. Their wages

:24:51.:24:56.

will be still lower in real terms. Let me come on to this plan for

:24:57.:25:01.

housing. We have announced a new plan to increase affordable housing,

:25:02.:25:06.

social housing, some council housing and social housing built by the

:25:07.:25:10.

associations. How much money is behind this? It is part of the 1.4

:25:11.:25:14.

billion announced in the Autumn Statement. How many homes will you

:25:15.:25:22.

get for 1.4 billion? That depends on the negotiations with local

:25:23.:25:24.

authorities. It is local authorities, who know the area best.

:25:25.:25:32.

I will not put a number on that. 1.4 billion, if you price the house at

:25:33.:25:36.

100,000, which is very low, particularly for the South, back at

:25:37.:25:42.

you 14,000 new homes. That is it. What we have seen before, how the

:25:43.:25:47.

local government can leveraged to build thousands more homes. That is

:25:48.:25:51.

what we want to see across the country. It is not just about the

:25:52.:25:55.

money, for a lot of local authorities it is about the

:25:56.:25:58.

expertise and knowledge on how to do this. That is why support from the

:25:59.:26:04.

housing communities minister will help. What is the timescale, how

:26:05.:26:10.

many more affordable homes will be built? I will not put a number on

:26:11.:26:15.

it. You announced it today, so you cannot tell me how many more or what

:26:16.:26:20.

the target is? It is a matter of working with the local authorities

:26:21.:26:23.

who know what their local needs are, what land they have got available.

:26:24.:26:27.

What we saw through the local elections with the Metro mayors,

:26:28.:26:31.

they want to deliver in their areas, whether it is the West of England,

:26:32.:26:35.

the north-east, Liverpool, Manchester and we want to work with

:26:36.:26:40.

them. You have said variations of this for the past seven years and I

:26:41.:26:44.

want some credibility. When you cannot tell us how much money, what

:26:45.:26:50.

the target and timescale is, and this government, under which

:26:51.:26:53.

affordable house building has fallen to a 24 year low. 1.2 million

:26:54.:26:59.

families are on waiting lists for social housing to rent. That is your

:27:00.:27:05.

record. Why should we believe a word you say? This is different to what

:27:06.:27:09.

we have been doing over the last two years. We want to develop and have a

:27:10.:27:14.

strong and stable economy that can sustain that 1.4 billion homes. This

:27:15.:27:21.

is important. In 2010, we inherited the lowest level of house building,

:27:22.:27:27.

75,000 new homes. That is about 189,000 over the last four years.

:27:28.:27:32.

That is a big step forward after the crash, getting people back into the

:27:33.:27:36.

industry. More first-time buyers onto the market. Final question, in

:27:37.:27:47.

2010, 2011, your first year in government, there were 60,000

:27:48.:27:52.

affordable homes built. May not be enough, but last day it was 30 2000.

:27:53.:28:00.

So why should we trust anything you say about this? On housing, we have

:28:01.:28:07.

delivered. We have delivered more social housing. Double what Labour

:28:08.:28:13.

did in 13 years, in just five years. This is what this policy is about,

:28:14.:28:17.

working with local authorities to deliver more homes to people in

:28:18.:28:18.

their local areas. Thank you. Now, they have a deficit

:28:19.:28:22.

of between 15 and 20% in the polls, but Jeremy Corbyn and those

:28:23.:28:25.

around him insist Labour can win. If the polls are right they've got

:28:26.:28:28.

three and half weeks to change voters' minds and persuade those

:28:29.:28:31.

fabled undecided voters We enlisted the polling organisation

:28:32.:28:33.

YouGov to help us find out how the performance of party leaders

:28:34.:28:38.

will affect behaviour Leeds, a city of three quarters

:28:39.:28:40.

of a million people, eight Parliamentary seats and home

:28:41.:28:49.

to our very own focus group. Our panel was recruited

:28:50.:28:54.

from a variety of backgrounds and the majority say they haven't

:28:55.:28:57.

decided who to vote for yet. Watching behind the glass,

:28:58.:29:01.

two experts on different sides Giles Cunningham, who headed up

:29:02.:29:03.

political press at Downing Street under David Cameron

:29:04.:29:10.

and Aaron Bastani, Corbin supporter, under David Cameron

:29:11.:29:17.

and Aaron Bastani, Corbyn supporter, I think Theresa May sees herself

:29:18.:29:19.

as a pound shop Thatcher. Milliband's policies but when it

:29:20.:29:23.

came about who you want,

:29:24.:29:43.

if you wake up on maybe a 2015, We found in a couple of focus

:29:44.:29:47.

groups, people saying we'd be quite relieved,

:29:48.:29:50.

even though some of those same people have been saying we quite

:29:51.:29:53.

like the Labour policies. I think the fact that Corbyn's

:29:54.:29:55.

going so hard on his values, this is a really progressive

:29:56.:30:00.

manifesto, they live But I think that's a new challenge,

:30:01.:30:02.

that wasn't there in 2015. Is there anyone here that

:30:03.:30:06.

you don't recognise? After a little warm up,

:30:07.:30:08.

the first exercise, recognising I think it's nice to have a strong

:30:09.:30:10.

woman in politics, I do. But I've got to say,

:30:11.:30:17.

when she comes on the news, I kind of do think,

:30:18.:30:19.

here we go again. Tell me about Tim Farron, what

:30:20.:30:22.

are your impressions of Tim Farron? It isn't going to do anything,

:30:23.:30:24.

it isn't going to change anything. You'll be surprised to hear it's

:30:25.:30:29.

actually the Greens. Strong and stable leadership

:30:30.:30:37.

in the national interest. Yes, Team May, it's

:30:38.:30:50.

the British equivalent of make What do we think about this one

:30:51.:30:55.

for the many and not the few? It's not quite as bad

:30:56.:31:05.

as strong and stable, but it will probably get

:31:06.:31:07.

on our nerves after a while. We must seize that chance today

:31:08.:31:09.

and every day until June the 8th. But that's not quite my

:31:10.:31:20.

question, my question is, if you are Prime Minister,

:31:21.:31:28.

we will leave, come hell or high water, whatever is on the table

:31:29.:31:30.

at the end of the negotiations? If we win the election,

:31:31.:31:33.

we'll get a good deal with Europe. Assertive and in control

:31:34.:31:36.

and he felt comfortable But the second one, I thought

:31:37.:31:38.

he was very hesitant. I thought he was kind of,

:31:39.:31:43.

hovering around, skirting around and that's the second

:31:44.:31:52.

time I've seen a similar interview with the question

:31:53.:31:55.

being asked regarding Brexit. I don't think I'd have

:31:56.:31:57.

any confidence with him You think you are going up

:31:58.:31:59.

against some quite strong people, how are you going to stand

:32:00.:32:02.

up for us? When you are in negotiations,

:32:03.:32:05.

you need to be tough. And actually is right

:32:06.:32:09.

to be tough sometimes, particularly when you are doing

:32:10.:32:11.

something for the country. There's a reason for talking

:32:12.:32:13.

about strong and stable leadership. It's about the future

:32:14.:32:16.

of the country, it's It's just that people kind of listen

:32:17.:32:18.

to that kind of thing and think Both on The One Show

:32:19.:32:22.

and in the news. She attracts the public better

:32:23.:32:28.

than what Corbyn does. She didn't answer the question

:32:29.:32:34.

in a more articular way than Corbyn Imagine that Theresa

:32:35.:32:37.

May is an animal. So, in your minds,

:32:38.:32:43.

what animal is coming to mind I've done a Pekinese because I think

:32:44.:32:46.

she's all bark and no bite. Alpaca because she's

:32:47.:33:00.

superior looking and woolly I don't think his policies

:33:01.:33:06.

are for the modern, real world. A mouse because they are weak

:33:07.:33:22.

and they can be easily bullied, but also they can catch

:33:23.:33:25.

you by surprise if you're What do you take away

:33:26.:33:28.

from what you saw then, and what message would you send back

:33:29.:33:36.

to the Tories now? I think what came over is people see

:33:37.:33:39.

Theresa May as a strong politician, not everyone likes her,

:33:40.:33:42.

but you don't need to be liked to be elected,

:33:43.:33:44.

because ultimately it's about who do you trust with your future

:33:45.:33:47.

and your security. I think what I also take out

:33:48.:33:49.

of that focus group, was it was a group of floating

:33:50.:33:51.

voters, there was no huge appetite for the Lib Dems and there was no

:33:52.:33:54.

huge appetite for Ukip. So my messaged back to CCHQ

:33:55.:33:57.

would be stick to the plan. I thought the response

:33:58.:34:00.

to the manifesto was excellent. It's clear that people aren't

:34:01.:34:04.

particularly keen on Theresa May, There are some associations with her

:34:05.:34:06.

about strength and stability, which is exactly what the Tory party

:34:07.:34:11.

want of course, but they are not positive and nobody thinks

:34:12.:34:14.

that she has a vision So, what I'd say the Jeremy Corbyn,

:34:15.:34:16.

what I'd say to the Labour Party is, they need to really emphasise

:34:17.:34:23.

the manifesto in Jeremy Corbyn himself has to perform

:34:24.:34:25.

out of his skin and I think he has to reemphasise those

:34:26.:34:31.

characteristics which may be have come to the fore may be

:34:32.:34:33.

over the last 12 months, resilience, strength and the fact

:34:34.:34:36.

that he's come this far, why not take that final step and go

:34:37.:34:39.

into ten Downing Street? We're joined now by the American

:34:40.:34:41.

political consultant For the sake of this discussion,

:34:42.:34:49.

assume the polls at the moment are broadly right, is there any hope for

:34:50.:34:56.

Mr Corbyn in the undecided voters? Know, and this is a very serious

:34:57.:35:02.

collection with serious consequences to who wins. Nobody cares whether

:35:03.:35:05.

you can draw and what animal they represent, they want to know where

:35:06.:35:10.

they stand, and I felt that was frivolous. I come to Britain to

:35:11.:35:14.

watch elections because I learned from here. Your elections are more

:35:15.:35:19.

substantial, more serious, more policy and less about personality

:35:20.:35:23.

and that peace was only about personality. That's partly because

:35:24.:35:28.

Mrs May has decided to make this a presidential election. You can see

:35:29.:35:37.

on the posters it is all Team May. I agree with that, and in her language

:35:38.:35:45.

she says not everyone benefits from a Conservative government, I don't

:35:46.:35:48.

see how using anything Republicans a Conservative government, I don't

:35:49.:35:50.

have used in the past. In fact her campaign is more of a centrist

:35:51.:35:56.

Democrats but it is a smart strategy because it pushes Corbyn further to

:35:57.:35:58.

Democrats but it is a smart strategy the left. Of course you said Hillary

:35:59.:36:03.

Clinton have won. On election night the polling was so bad in America,

:36:04.:36:08.

the exit polls that were done, the BBC told America she had won. No, I

:36:09.:36:14.

was anchoring the programme that night, I ignored your tweet. The BBC

:36:15.:36:18.

was anchoring the programme that had the same numbers. Yes, but we

:36:19.:36:25.

did not say she had won, I can assure you of that. Because of

:36:26.:36:30.

people like you we thought she had but we didn't broadcast it. That was

:36:31.:36:36.

a smart approach. My point is other than teasing you, maybe there is

:36:37.:36:42.

hope for Jeremy Corbyn. I think you will have one of the lowest turnout

:36:43.:36:46.

in modern history and I think Labour will fall to one of the lowest

:36:47.:36:50.

percentages, not percentage of number of seats they have had, and

:36:51.:36:56.

this will be a matter of soul-searching for both political

:36:57.:37:00.

parties. What you do with a sizeable majority, and she has a

:37:01.:37:03.

parties. What you do with a sizeable responsibility to tell the British

:37:04.:37:05.

people exactly what happens as she moves forward. He and Labour will

:37:06.:37:12.

have to take a look at whether they still represent a significant slice

:37:13.:37:17.

of the British population. Do you see a realignment in British

:37:18.:37:21.

politics taking place? I see a crumbling of the left and yet there

:37:22.:37:25.

is still a significant percentage of the British population that once

:37:26.:37:29.

someone who is centre-left. And they like a lot of Mr Corbyn's policies.

:37:30.:37:38.

I'm listening to Michael foot. I went to school here in the 1980s and

:37:39.:37:41.

I feel like I'm watching the Labour Party of 35 years ago, in a

:37:42.:37:44.

population that wants to focus on the future, not the past. Thank you.

:37:45.:37:51.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:52.:37:53.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:37:54.:37:59.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:38:00.:38:00.

Should the NHS have done more to protect itself

:38:01.:38:06.

and how safe are our other institutions?

:38:07.:38:10.

The Scottish Greens drastically reduce the number of seats

:38:11.:38:14.

I'll be asking their co-convenor why.

:38:15.:38:18.

But will we ever get close again to being amongst

:38:19.:38:22.

It came out of the blue and has caused major disruption for the NHS

:38:23.:38:30.

which is continuing to deal with the fall out

:38:31.:38:33.

11 of Scotland's 14 health boards were affected

:38:34.:38:36.

although some are hoping to be back to

:38:37.:38:37.

near normal working by tomorrow.

:38:38.:38:39.

Well, joining me from Edinburgh to discuss the latest

:38:40.:38:41.

on those attacks is Professor Bill Buchanan

:38:42.:38:44.

who leads the Cyber Academy at Edinburgh Napier University.

:38:45.:38:49.

First, Bill there are some reports seemingly based on the chap who by

:38:50.:38:56.

accident stopped the spread of this. seemingly based on the chap who by

:38:57.:39:00.

That it could all happen again tomorrow. Do you take that

:39:01.:39:04.

seriously? It could happen tomorrow. It is quite likely, it could have

:39:05.:39:10.

been much more severe, and we could have had a large-scale outbreak in

:39:11.:39:14.

the public sector systems in the UK. It has been well known that this

:39:15.:39:18.

vulnerability has been around for at least a month and it was given

:39:19.:39:23.

administrators working in time to be able to patch their systems,

:39:24.:39:26.

otherwise this would not have happened. Along with this we see

:39:27.:39:32.

that there are many windows XP system still in the NHS and as long

:39:33.:39:37.

as there is one of those computers in there that is a way for malware

:39:38.:39:41.

to get in. That is an interesting point. Just explain to people is XP

:39:42.:39:50.

and a old operating system? Several generations. Even if one double

:39:51.:39:58.

system is in a hospital network network with other Windows systems,

:39:59.:40:02.

even if they are Windows ten, they are that one to be updated by Mike

:40:03.:40:09.

assessed -- Microsoft, that can infect the whole lot. Everyone knows

:40:10.:40:15.

that Windows stopped updating their older systems. It is taken a long

:40:16.:40:21.

time to migrate away and it is a difficult challenge within the NHS

:40:22.:40:23.

because you are busy have business work which involves connection to GP

:40:24.:40:26.

practices which might not have the most up-to-date software. Just to be

:40:27.:40:31.

clear on the point I was making, are you saying that even one computer

:40:32.:40:34.

clear on the point I was making, are and XP system could infect an entire

:40:35.:40:39.

NHS system even if the rest of the and XP system could infect an entire

:40:40.:40:44.

NHS was up-to-date? It really depends how the network is made up

:40:45.:40:49.

but this is a worm and what a worm does is affect a leader in a network

:40:50.:40:54.

and naturally spread so all you need is one touch pointed to the old

:40:55.:40:58.

network, and it could also be someone clicking from a link from

:40:59.:41:03.

e-mail, dropping malware onto the computer, or a USB stick into the

:41:04.:41:07.

network which then infects the entire network so once it is in, it

:41:08.:41:11.

can then propagate across the whole network. Do you think the main

:41:12.:41:16.

problem is that as you have mentioned some of these systems are

:41:17.:41:21.

on the old XP abridging system or is the problem that most of them are on

:41:22.:41:24.

later versions of Windows, and they for some reason have not updated

:41:25.:41:28.

with all the security patches that they should have updated with? As

:41:29.:41:33.

you said, Microsoft had put out a patch for the some time ago. I think

:41:34.:41:38.

we need to look beyond the short fix beyond operating systems and

:41:39.:41:41.

computers, I think there needs to be a radical change of the hole in

:41:42.:41:48.

visage of health care, and move away from short-term fixes such as

:41:49.:41:52.

patches. The architecture we have for health care really needs to move

:41:53.:41:56.

into the modern era of cloud -based systems, having integrated policy,

:41:57.:42:02.

integrating things much more, and certainly to put the citizen at the

:42:03.:42:07.

core focus of health care systems. Again, just explain that because a

:42:08.:42:11.

lot of people would be terribly familiar with that. Cloud -based

:42:12.:42:15.

systems, this is where poor example patient data rather than being held

:42:16.:42:19.

on local servers, would be held effectively on the Internet in the

:42:20.:42:24.

way that a lot of information is these days, and is that more secure?

:42:25.:42:29.

Yellow macro no, it's not stored on the Internet, it is stored within a

:42:30.:42:33.

private clouds so that is within the NHS infrastructure, or held locally

:42:34.:42:39.

within a practice, so that is where the confusion comes in, as opposed

:42:40.:42:44.

to a public cloud which is busy addressable by anybody in the world

:42:45.:42:48.

but is also private clouds, many organisations such as in the finance

:42:49.:42:52.

industry are now going towards private cloud infrastructures, where

:42:53.:42:56.

they centralise the security policy of all infrastructure, into

:42:57.:43:00.

centralised places, and then the data storage is also backed up

:43:01.:43:05.

locally, and then in another remote location. They are hopeful I think

:43:06.:43:11.

of getting the systems that have been affected in the NHS in

:43:12.:43:14.

Scotland, we should be clear it is not all over Scotland, the real

:43:15.:43:17.

problem seems to have been particularly in Lanarkshire. How do

:43:18.:43:23.

they do that? As I understand that the only way to get rid of this is

:43:24.:43:27.

to effectively what the operating system on a computer and reinstall

:43:28.:43:32.

it. Increasingly computers don't store the information locally and I

:43:33.:43:38.

would expect the NHS will be storing all the data on a centralised data

:43:39.:43:43.

infrastructure so we typically just use the computer to login and get

:43:44.:43:47.

access to services, connect to the web and so on, so in most cases what

:43:48.:43:53.

will happen is it will be a really of the computers. -- reimaging. Can

:43:54.:44:04.

we be sure that individual computers are not affected? Yellow macro I

:44:05.:44:07.

don't think they can say that at all. That depends on the individual

:44:08.:44:16.

practices, local computers, and what is actively stored on these.

:44:17.:44:19.

Increasingly we needs to be storing in a centralised data

:44:20.:44:22.

Increasingly we needs to be storing infrastructure. Briefly, the other

:44:23.:44:28.

possible he is that out of sheer malice and frustration those who did

:44:29.:44:34.

this good trigger the deletion of encrypted information, and if that

:44:35.:44:37.

information has been encrypted back-up computers, there could still

:44:38.:44:42.

be some data loss on this, couldn't they? It looks like this is not the

:44:43.:44:47.

most sophisticated malware, but not being able to get access to the

:44:48.:44:52.

encryption key is the same as deleting the data, you can't get the

:44:53.:44:55.

data back unless you have the unique encryption key which has encrypted

:44:56.:44:59.

the data so although the files are still there, there is no way to

:45:00.:45:01.

access them unless you can actually find that encryption key. Some

:45:02.:45:08.

malware allows the files to be taken off the machine, allowing for more

:45:09.:45:14.

access of the computer so for example the camera and to be able to

:45:15.:45:17.

take files off but in this case it isn't as sophisticated will stop

:45:18.:45:22.

what is more important is the way that this spread was through a

:45:23.:45:28.

system called as M B which Microsoft announced over a month ago, which

:45:29.:45:31.

should have been blocked by the main firewall. -- the system was called

:45:32.:45:37.

SMB. The Scottish Greens will fight only

:45:38.:45:38.

three seats in the general election with co-convenor Patrick Harvie

:45:39.:45:41.

standing in one of them. Add that to the announcement

:45:42.:45:43.

this week that it won't be endorsing any other party in the 56 seats

:45:44.:45:46.

it's not contesting, and you're pretty much up to speed

:45:47.:45:48.

with the Greens' strategy, one which has inevitably left

:45:49.:45:51.

them open to the claim, in some quarters, that this

:45:52.:45:53.

is all about propping-up the SNP. In the first of our series

:45:54.:45:56.

of interviews with the party leaders, I'm joined

:45:57.:45:58.

now by Patrick Harvie. Patrick Harvie laughed when he was

:45:59.:46:12.

going to be on this. A wry smile. You are proud of this situation, but

:46:13.:46:21.

where you are not standing, you decided not to the candidate? All

:46:22.:46:24.

the branches made their decisions in their own way and stop some health

:46:25.:46:30.

meeting some will decide online. Or the 56 decided no, we don't want to

:46:31.:46:34.

stand. Rather than we don't want to stand, all of them voted that the

:46:35.:46:40.

resources they had left, after the seven national votes including the

:46:41.:46:43.

Holyrood and local elections that we put a huge amount of resource and

:46:44.:46:46.

energy into, they recognise that this wasn't something we were able

:46:47.:46:50.

to do. Bust than two years ago in the 2015 election we stayed in about

:46:51.:46:54.

half the seats in Scotland. I regret honestly that we are not in a

:46:55.:46:56.

position to do that again this time round. Or even to get close to this.

:46:57.:47:02.

What we do have to do is focus our resources where it will really make

:47:03.:47:06.

a difference because I believe it is critical at the particular time we

:47:07.:47:08.

are in at the moment that Scotland has a green voice at Westminster, I

:47:09.:47:11.

think we can achieve that but only if we focus. This has nothing to do

:47:12.:47:18.

with helping other parties? No, the branches in some parts of the

:47:19.:47:24.

country will no doubt, as the Green party in England and Wales have done

:47:25.:47:29.

as well, contemplate -- contemplate how to stop the Tories. If there is

:47:30.:47:33.

the Tory held seat that is one of the fact is that people will have in

:47:34.:47:36.

mind. Anybody on the progressive side of politics needs to be trying

:47:37.:47:41.

to prevent the kind of Tory takeover of Westminster that Theresa May is

:47:42.:47:47.

running for. This is an opportunity is -- opportunistic election, and

:47:48.:47:54.

she wouldn't be calling it if there were not a weak Labour Party. The

:47:55.:47:58.

two answers you have given seem to contradict each other. One minute

:47:59.:48:00.

you say this is entirely about resources, and your branches are all

:48:01.:48:04.

deciding not to stand, and now you are saying you are not standing

:48:05.:48:07.

because he wants to help beat the Tories. It is overwhelmingly about

:48:08.:48:13.

resources. Obviously one of the fact is that they branch which is

:48:14.:48:15.

covering a Tory held or Tory marginal seat, one of the factors is

:48:16.:48:22.

how best to prevent that very damaging outcome, the bigger Tory

:48:23.:48:26.

majority at Westminster but look, the plc is that there are going to

:48:27.:48:30.

be hugely important social and environmental powers moved from

:48:31.:48:32.

Europe to Westminster in the next session of part of -- Parliament.

:48:33.:48:39.

That will put lives on the line and a green voice at Westerners is a

:48:40.:48:45.

great priority. Maggie Chapman permit your co-convener said a few

:48:46.:48:48.

weeks ago that you would consider as you suggested your strategy offered

:48:49.:48:54.

to keep the Tories out that not standing in areas where you thought

:48:55.:48:57.

that would help people fighting Tories. She also said an approach

:48:58.:49:01.

would be made to the Scottish National Party, about a Progressive

:49:02.:49:05.

Alliance in what she said as the next couple of days. That was able

:49:06.:49:08.

the 18th. Was such an approach ever made? No. Why not? It wasn't a

:49:09.:49:16.

discussion that took place. It wasn't something be partly as a

:49:17.:49:20.

robotic decided to do and she was exposing her provisional view in an

:49:21.:49:26.

interview. The VLC is that the party makes decisions as local as

:49:27.:49:31.

possible. That is the way that we have always operated. Your

:49:32.:49:36.

co-convener said there would be an approach in the next couple of days,

:49:37.:49:40.

there wasn't an approach, why not? She said she was addressing a

:49:41.:49:44.

personal view. The party had not decided to do that. The national

:49:45.:49:50.

council never considered the option of doing that. Actually, after the

:49:51.:49:55.

2014 election and in the run up to 2015, the party's national council

:49:56.:49:58.

agreed that there should be some level of discussion with the SNP

:49:59.:50:01.

about whether there should be a different approach to the 2015

:50:02.:50:05.

election. They weren't interested and I frankly didn't think that they

:50:06.:50:10.

would be, so they clearly had the resources to fight everything and

:50:11.:50:13.

why would they change that strategy? I didn't expect anything different

:50:14.:50:17.

this time so I'm not sure why would explore that.

:50:18.:50:22.

People who would like to vote Green in the 56 seats where you are not

:50:23.:50:31.

standing, who should they vote for? It depends on what issues are

:50:32.:50:36.

important to them. If opposing Trident renewal is important to

:50:37.:50:42.

them, they may find SNP candidates or Labour candidates who agree with

:50:43.:50:46.

them. If the most important issue is ending subsidies to fossil fuels,

:50:47.:50:51.

they are unlikely to find many SNP candidates who support them. If the

:50:52.:50:57.

most important thing is sustainable transport, why would we send MPs

:50:58.:51:02.

from is Scottish constituencies to argue for an extra runway at

:51:03.:51:07.

Heathrow when our transport is unreliable and underfunded? What if

:51:08.:51:12.

they think the Tories have the best offer? If people want an ever

:51:13.:51:20.

meaner, harsher Social Security system that forces more people into

:51:21.:51:24.

poverty, they need to check their values. There must be many people

:51:25.:51:30.

whose priority is the environment who feel that Tories are sticking up

:51:31.:51:38.

for that. They would give the go-ahead to fracking, subsidising

:51:39.:51:43.

nuclear power while removing support from the renewable energy industry.

:51:44.:51:49.

Anybody who supports a sustainable future for the UK will look at the

:51:50.:51:54.

Tories and think they are not where it's at. Would you produce a

:51:55.:52:01.

manifesto for this? Think of the paper you would be using. We will

:52:02.:52:07.

produce a manifesto, the majority of it online, but we have a chance of

:52:08.:52:15.

getting are strong Green MP at Westminster because we are focusing

:52:16.:52:19.

our resources because we are not knocking on the doors of to fund the

:52:20.:52:24.

campaign but are knocking on the doors of constituencies where we are

:52:25.:52:28.

investing and talking about investment in the future, not fossil

:52:29.:52:34.

fuel addicted economy but one that will create jobs for the future, a

:52:35.:52:40.

Social Security system worthy of the name that allows people to choose a

:52:41.:52:45.

balance in their own life between learning, working and the other

:52:46.:52:51.

things that matter. But unlike the SNP, you are a parent UK movement.

:52:52.:52:59.

We are a global movement. You save on your website you want to make a

:53:00.:53:04.

real impact, joining forces with Caroline Lucas but that is not

:53:05.:53:10.

really what you want to do. You want to split up the UK so you cannot

:53:11.:53:14.

even be in the same parliament as Caroline Lucas. If Scotland has a

:53:15.:53:22.

chance to ask itself again the question of independence and resolve

:53:23.:53:33.

this conflict between 55% no vote in 2014 and 62% remain vote in 2016, I

:53:34.:53:44.

will stand with them. I'm sure many people in Scotland care about

:53:45.:53:47.

environmental issues and are opposed to independence to Scotland, but why

:53:48.:53:52.

do you have such a bee in your bonnet about it? I know there are

:53:53.:53:58.

such people and there are such people in the Scottish Green Party.

:53:59.:54:03.

You know we were the only political party clearly saying we have our

:54:04.:54:08.

majority of our members campaigning for a Yes vote but we have no

:54:09.:54:14.

problem with debating that in a spirit of friendly disagreement with

:54:15.:54:17.

Greens who will vote a different way. You don't want a second

:54:18.:54:24.

independence referendum, -- referendum, you don't want

:54:25.:54:28.

independence but you were otherwise paid up in caring for the

:54:29.:54:31.

environment, then you shouldn't vote Green? The question of a referendum

:54:32.:54:38.

has already been voted on in Parliament. If the Tories have a

:54:39.:54:46.

majority at Westminster then there will be a tussle about who has the

:54:47.:54:50.

bigger mandate, but the critical set of issues will be what to do with

:54:51.:54:56.

environmental protections, hard won over many years in the EU. Do we

:54:57.:55:01.

want to hand those over two Tories at Westminster? I think a green

:55:02.:55:08.

voice for Scotland at Westminster is important. According to

:55:09.:55:14.

International energy, there was the biggest fall of carbon emissions

:55:15.:55:21.

last year of anywhere in the world of the United States, where they are

:55:22.:55:24.

now back to where they work in the 1990s. This is almost entirely

:55:25.:55:31.

because of fracking and trapped gas replacing coal power stations, yet

:55:32.:55:35.

you are opposed to fracking on the grounds it is bad for carbon

:55:36.:55:42.

emissions. It clearly isn't, it is helping reduce carbon emissions not

:55:43.:55:48.

just in the US but in China. Everyone to reduce carbon

:55:49.:55:55.

emissions... You're not denying it. We need to look at the global

:55:56.:56:00.

picture, not just in one country. The biggest economy in the world.

:56:01.:56:04.

picture, not just in one country. And one of the most polluting,

:56:05.:56:10.

still. The US shifting to Frank gas does not mean those polluting fuels

:56:11.:56:14.

are not being used, they are simply shifting elsewhere. Fracking is

:56:15.:56:20.

opening up a new scene of fossil fuels, a new roll of the dice. It

:56:21.:56:23.

produces less gas emissions then fuels, a new roll of the dice. It

:56:24.:56:32.

call stations. Coal is still being used elsewhere in the global

:56:33.:56:36.

economy. But you are against nuclear, the other extreme form of

:56:37.:56:39.

pace power. Scotland can achieve nuclear, the other extreme form of

:56:40.:56:46.

stable energy system without nuclear power. Of the two things which can

:56:47.:56:52.

reduce carbon emissions, you are against them. Look at what the UK is

:56:53.:56:59.

doing with nuclear power, and saying it can be done quickly or safely. I

:57:00.:57:08.

don't think so. The allegation is you are better at being a Scottish

:57:09.:57:13.

nationalist than I green. I've heard that and other silly accusations

:57:14.:57:17.

from the Conservative Party. They keep coming up with not very well

:57:18.:57:24.

done means online. Maybe with an element of truth. The arguments of

:57:25.:57:32.

the Greens are coming from nowhere else in the Scottish political

:57:33.:57:35.

landscape. We will keep making that case. Thank you for joining us.

:57:36.:57:39.

Now, in the week before the general election, BBC Scotland

:57:40.:57:41.

will be hosting a series of "Ask the Leader" TV debates,

:57:42.:57:44.

a different leader each night, chaired by Glenn Campbell

:57:45.:57:46.

If you'd like to take part, then you can apply online

:57:47.:57:50.

by visiting our BBC News and Reporting Scotland websites.

:57:51.:57:52.

The state of Scotland's Education system

:57:53.:57:53.

has been in the news this week - though to be fair, it often is.

:57:54.:57:59.

showed the literacy skills of some pupils were declining, again.

:58:00.:58:02.

Then the Education Committee at Holyrood heard

:58:03.:58:03.

some rather surprising evidence from trainee teachers.

:58:04.:58:05.

I'm going to say someone's name and you have to listen. Learning the art

:58:06.:58:21.

of listening at an Edinburgh school this week. These pupils are doing

:58:22.:58:27.

well but the Scottish Government has been marked down in the latest

:58:28.:58:32.

survey of older children's S say. Government figures show that in 2012

:58:33.:58:38.

64% of second-year pupils were doing well or very well in writing. Last

:58:39.:58:45.

year it was just 49%. Primary school pupils also saw a drop in

:58:46.:58:52.

performance though reading ability remains broadly the same as 2014,

:58:53.:58:57.

and last year saw the worst result for Scotland in the programme for

:58:58.:59:03.

student assessments in maths, reading and science. The government

:59:04.:59:10.

says the decline is unacceptable. Recruitment needs to be undertaken

:59:11.:59:15.

to ensure young people and educational are met and the

:59:16.:59:19.

government is determined to do that but we have to see these figures

:59:20.:59:25.

within a round of information which points to strength in Scottish

:59:26.:59:30.

education. What has gone wrong and how can we get back on track? One

:59:31.:59:38.

expert says it's the curriculum. We have a curriculum in Scotland which

:59:39.:59:41.

has neglected the basics of literacy and numeracy and later by the

:59:42.:59:48.

secondary stage, the contact of knowledge that helped to develop

:59:49.:59:53.

children's literacy further than the basics, so the curriculum is the

:59:54.:59:59.

major explication. Hollywood's Education Committee heard evidence

:00:00.:00:05.

this week from trainee teachers. The likes of literacy, there would be a

:00:06.:00:10.

single week we focus on literacy, that would be the focus. I was told

:00:11.:00:18.

reading is good for children and makes them creative, which is useful

:00:19.:00:22.

for first-year but to be reinforced for two years is unnecessary, and

:00:23.:00:27.

have inexperienced the schemes like big writing ventures, having input

:00:28.:00:33.

into how the schemes work would have been more valuable. There may also

:00:34.:00:40.

be a sense that teaching isn't valued properly. I got told, you're

:00:41.:00:44.

be a sense that teaching isn't too bright to be a teacher, by my

:00:45.:00:46.

own teachers. The focus might be as too bright to be a teacher, by my

:00:47.:00:53.

much on teachers as pupils, which is what has happened at the school in

:00:54.:00:57.

Renfrew truck, where the council have partnered with the University

:00:58.:01:01.

Renfrew truck, where the council of Strathclyde to provide on-the-job

:01:02.:01:02.

development to teachers in the field Well, joining me now from Chelmsford

:01:03.:01:04.

is Professor Sue Hill, an education expert

:01:05.:01:07.

from the University of Strathclyde who was involved in that

:01:08.:01:09.

project in Renfrewshire. Can't we try to establish some facts

:01:10.:01:21.

in this rather heated debate? Let stand back from the politics. First,

:01:22.:01:28.

this idea that a fifth of students in Scotland are functionally

:01:29.:01:34.

illiterate? What does that mean? Is it defined in some way? It is, it

:01:35.:01:43.

means they cannot read a basic newspaper, they find it difficult to

:01:44.:01:49.

read or follow instructions, so there is quite a precise definition

:01:50.:01:54.

but since we are talking about facts, it is Renfrewshire, not East

:01:55.:02:03.

Renfrewshire. I apologise, but that sounds pretty drastic, what you

:02:04.:02:07.

described. Is this student is leaving secondary school? It is a

:02:08.:02:13.

measure taken at secondary school level but the issues they relate

:02:14.:02:18.

further back into primary schools, so the way pupils are taught to read

:02:19.:02:26.

and write, one thing about the survey is that it highlights the

:02:27.:02:31.

need for teachers to have a much stronger knowledge-based, not just

:02:32.:02:37.

about what you teach when you teach reading and writing but also how and

:02:38.:02:43.

why it is so difficult for some children and how schools can

:02:44.:02:45.

unintentionally amplify those difficulties. We look at that rather

:02:46.:02:52.

than at absolute standards because no one the standard isn't helpful if

:02:53.:02:57.

you don't know how to remove children on, so it is process

:02:58.:03:02.

knowledge that is required. Nicola Sturgeon has done a couple of

:03:03.:03:07.

interviews where she read rated that the figure that said more than half

:03:08.:03:16.

of S2 students couldn't write to the standard expected, she said that is

:03:17.:03:20.

true but she says what they were being tested on, they were 13 and

:03:21.:03:26.

14-year-olds being tested on the standard of 15 and 16-year-olds, and

:03:27.:03:33.

when they become 15 and you test them again, 80% can do it properly.

:03:34.:03:40.

Is that a valid response? I think it is partly valid. One difficulty with

:03:41.:03:47.

a sample survey like this is it takes very small numbers of children

:03:48.:03:53.

in each local authority and extrapolates out from that to a

:03:54.:03:56.

national picture, and the difficulty we have is that the SSN levels don't

:03:57.:04:06.

exactly match the other levels. There are levels about reading and

:04:07.:04:12.

writing in secondary schools, when children move into secondary schools

:04:13.:04:18.

it becomes more complex and if they haven't had a strong grounding in

:04:19.:04:23.

the intellectual grounds of reading and writing in primary school, they

:04:24.:04:29.

can founder badly. If you think about child moving through there one

:04:30.:04:32.

curriculum, they might start and have period one in an English

:04:33.:04:37.

classroom where they are being asked to read and write and think about

:04:38.:04:42.

the imagery and attend to the way something has been written, they

:04:43.:04:44.

then move on to a modern studies something has been written, they

:04:45.:04:47.

class where they have to think about who wrote it, is it biased, what IS

:04:48.:04:55.

is happening? Then in chemistry they might get three or four lines of

:04:56.:04:59.

writing but it's hugely detailed and downs and they have to do a lot of

:05:00.:05:04.

tight reading, the same with English, they are being asked to

:05:05.:05:09.

write fluently and use rich language. In geography you have

:05:10.:05:15.

similar issues and have to pack the knowledge in, so these difficulties

:05:16.:05:21.

can destabilise children who come to this. You have describe something

:05:22.:05:30.

can destabilise children who come to that is always the case for children

:05:31.:05:36.

going to school. Why are these students functionally illiterate in

:05:37.:05:42.

the way you describe, can't read newspapers or fill in forms that

:05:43.:05:45.

they might be expected to in the course of their daily lives. People

:05:46.:05:48.

like that are going to find it difficult in the 21st century to get

:05:49.:05:52.

gainful employment when leaving school. Why things getting worse? I

:05:53.:05:55.

gainful employment when leaving think part of the issue has been

:05:56.:06:01.

interviews with those student teachers has been such a strong

:06:02.:06:06.

focus on programmes and content and that is what student teachers said

:06:07.:06:09.

they wanted to learn about more but what we know about teaching content

:06:10.:06:12.

is that it is not powerful if you do not understand the context. The

:06:13.:06:17.

social basis of reading and writing, too. One of the things we do know is

:06:18.:06:23.

that from the international surveys of education levels is that 37% of

:06:24.:06:30.

reading is associated with social class is it to bluetits to

:06:31.:06:35.

differences in reading engagement. 70% is associated with gender,

:06:36.:06:39.

associated with reading engagement. Middle-class kids come to school and

:06:40.:06:44.

they have a view that reading is about relaxing, about being

:06:45.:06:50.

enjoyable times... But that doesn't answer why things are getting worse.

:06:51.:06:54.

enjoyable times... But that doesn't Things are getting worse because

:06:55.:06:57.

society is changing and education has continued to focus on content

:06:58.:07:01.

knowledge that is taught, rather than looking at what the actual

:07:02.:07:06.

social basis... Soap if you have some people coming to school

:07:07.:07:09.

thinking that reading and writing is actually about work, and it is a

:07:10.:07:12.

necessary evil, and other people coming to school thinking actually

:07:13.:07:17.

it is irrelevant because it is irrelevant at home, schools have to

:07:18.:07:21.

take all of those people and actually turn it around, address the

:07:22.:07:28.

social attitudes, changing social attitudes making things difficult.

:07:29.:07:31.

Whether it is people to get driving more safely or... I get the point.

:07:32.:07:38.

Your Mac rate is a hard thing and the curriculum has not focused on

:07:39.:07:43.

the enough. Thank you very much. We will return to this will stop I'm

:07:44.:07:46.

very sure. Now before we look at

:07:47.:07:47.

the Week Ahead, a quick refresher

:07:48.:07:49.

of the political Week Just Passed. and political

:07:50.:08:24.

commentator Paul Gilbride. The Greens, what do you make of them

:08:25.:09:13.

were hardly standing and candidates. No, but I think it is probably

:09:14.:09:17.

necessary because it is sensible financially but not sensible

:09:18.:09:19.

politically but they just don't have the money, they didn't expect the

:09:20.:09:23.

election, we were told to have a fixed term parliaments of five

:09:24.:09:27.

years, and we have had in Scotland, we have had six major elections in

:09:28.:09:29.

the thousand days. As you said, the we have had six major elections in

:09:30.:09:35.

Green party is not funded by billionaires and millionaires and

:09:36.:09:37.

they just don't have the resources to do that. But if you want to be

:09:38.:09:42.

seen to be taken seriously... You've just got to do it. I think we saw

:09:43.:09:49.

that in the 2015 general election, 32 candidates in as many

:09:50.:09:53.

constituency. I hate to use this word, it is now polarised politics

:09:54.:09:59.

in Scotland. With the Greens, they might want to save money, why would

:10:00.:10:00.

they stand in a seat against might want to save money, why would

:10:01.:10:06.

independent campaigners? That is the thing. Hang on. Patrick Harvie said

:10:07.:10:12.

that was not happening. What do you make of it so far, the campaign in

:10:13.:10:19.

general bastion Mark it's not really started? I felt it had wouldn't

:10:20.:10:22.

really started until about the middle of Thursday when the Labour

:10:23.:10:28.

manifesto had been leaked, and it suddenly began to be apparent that

:10:29.:10:31.

there were quite a lot of things in that manifesto that at least some

:10:32.:10:34.

people were quite interested in discussing, and it seemed to be a

:10:35.:10:38.

better reaction to it as opposed to the policies, but fairly

:10:39.:10:45.

centre-left, left manifesto, a good reaction to the policies from the

:10:46.:10:49.

public, that they were expecting and at that moment the election came

:10:50.:10:52.

alive a little bit because it seemed like there might be an election, not

:10:53.:10:56.

that Jeremy Corbyn could win but one which would actually change the

:10:57.:10:58.

terms of UK politics. Because of the which would actually change the

:10:59.:11:01.

content of the labour manifesto, which is reducing ideas into the

:11:02.:11:05.

British politics Milliyet which haven't been there since the Tony

:11:06.:11:12.

Blair period. If you are the Tories, do you think they will feel and

:11:13.:11:18.

Blair period. If you are the Tories, obligation to come out with

:11:19.:11:21.

interesting policies of their own? Or is it all about Theresa May and

:11:22.:11:25.

Scotland is all about opposing an independence referendum in, he

:11:26.:11:32.

strong stable government etc? I think were a strategic point of view

:11:33.:11:37.

I think absolutely. I agree with what Joyce is saying, the Labour

:11:38.:11:43.

manifesto leak has introduced the idea of policy into this campaign

:11:44.:11:49.

and that is interesting. From a Tory strategic point of view absolutely

:11:50.:11:53.

strong and stable as opposed to, well, weak and chaotic, and let us

:11:54.:12:00.

find out with the Labour launch manifesto later this week how much

:12:01.:12:04.

the leak document have actually made it into the final manifesto. There

:12:05.:12:08.

is a lot of infighting still going on with Labour, and I think the

:12:09.:12:12.

Tories just need to stand aside, and let Labour carry on as they have

:12:13.:12:18.

Tories just need to stand aside, and been. Are Labour polls closing the

:12:19.:12:22.

gap? I cope, the gap is huge but it is still closing. Of course they can

:12:23.:12:27.

say look, in actual event -- elections, they have done better

:12:28.:12:30.

than the polls have said. I think they will do better than what was

:12:31.:12:34.

predicted, I think it would be devastating enough for Jeremy Corbyn

:12:35.:12:38.

do have to resign if he really doesn't want to, and I think it will

:12:39.:12:42.

attract that source of quarter to a third of British people who are

:12:43.:12:48.

still really interested in social justice, and a shift back to the

:12:49.:12:52.

left, but it won't attract the rest of the people and their from -- from

:12:53.:12:58.

a burst past the post system I don't see how the Conservatives can't win.

:12:59.:13:01.

Do you think this is a good opportunity for them? Or is there

:13:02.:13:08.

not much in them. There is nowhere for the SNP to go after that extra

:13:09.:13:12.

my performance in 2015, except down. They're going to lose some seat but

:13:13.:13:17.

probably as not as many of the Tories would like. It seems to me

:13:18.:13:20.

that the SNP in particular would really rather not to have to sit. Is

:13:21.:13:26.

there a way they could turn this to their advantage? I'm sure they will,

:13:27.:13:33.

but I see how they can. If they were going to, I think they would have

:13:34.:13:37.

done it by now. There is not much glory in this selection for the SNP,

:13:38.:13:42.

there is going to be basically another referendum, and it is going

:13:43.:13:44.

to follow those lines. Prounion parties, and independence parties.

:13:45.:13:51.

We will have to leave that there. That's all from us this week, I will

:13:52.:13:55.

see you next Sunday. Goodbye.

:13:56.:13:59.