Browse content similar to 07/05/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics. | :00:39. | :00:41. | |
The local election results made grim reading for Labour. | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
With just a month to go until the general election, | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
will promising to rule out tax rises for all but the well off help | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
The Conservatives have their own announcement on mental health, | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
as they strain every sinew to insist they don't think they've got | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
But is there still really all to play for? | :01:01. | :01:08. | |
And tonight we will find out who is the next | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
President of France - Emmanuel Macron or Marine Le Pen - | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
after an unpredictable campaign that ended with a hack attack | :01:16. | :01:18. | |
on Mr Macron, considered the frontrunner. | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
The SNP remain the largest party in local Government | :01:22. | :01:24. | |
while the Scottish Tories claim only they have the strength | :01:25. | :01:26. | |
We look at the battle to translate local votes into Westminster seats. | :01:27. | :01:39. | |
And joining me for all of that, three journalists ready | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
to analyse the week's politics with all the forensic | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
focus of Diane Abbott preparing for an interview, | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
and all the relaxed, slogan-free banter of Theresa May | :01:50. | :01:51. | |
It's Janan Ganesh, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards. | :01:52. | :01:57. | |
So, the Conservatives are promising, if re-elected, to change mental | :01:58. | :02:04. | |
health laws in England and Wales to tackle discrimination, | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
and they're promising 10,000 more staff working in NHS mental health | :02:08. | :02:13. | |
treatment in England by 2020 - although how that's to be | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
Here's Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt speaking | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
There is a lot of new money going into it. | :02:20. | :02:26. | |
In January, we said we were going to put an extra ?1 billion | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
Does this come from other parts of the NHS, or is it | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
No, it is new money going into the NHS | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
It's not just of course money, it's having the people | :02:38. | :02:44. | |
who deliver these jobs, which is why we need | :02:45. | :02:46. | |
Well, we're joined now from Norwich by the Liberal Democrat health | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
This weekend, they've launched their own health announcement, | :02:52. | :02:53. | |
promising a 1% rise on every income tax band to fund the NHS. | :02:54. | :03:02. | |
Do you welcome the Conservatives putting mental health onto the | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
campaign agenda in the way that they have? I welcome it being on the | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
campaign agenda but I do fear that the announcement is built on thin | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
air. You raised the issue at the start about the 10,000 extra staff, | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
and questions surrounding how it would be paid for. There is no | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
additional money on what they have already announced for the NHS. We | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
know it falls massively short on the expectation of the funding gap | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
which, by 2020, is likely to be about 30 billion. That is not | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
disputed now. Anyone outside of the government, wherever you are on the | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
political spectrum, knows the money going in is simply not enough. So, | :03:46. | :03:54. | |
rather like the claim that they would add 5000 GPs to the workforce | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
by 2020, that is not on target. Latest figures show a fall in the | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
number of GPs. They make these claims, but I'm afraid they are | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
without substance, unless they are prepared to put money behind it. | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
Your party's solution to the money problem is to put a 1% percentage | :04:13. | :04:23. | |
point on all of the bands of income tax to raise more money 20-45. Is | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
that unfair? Most pensioners who consume 40% of NHS spending, but | :04:29. | :04:36. | |
over 65s only pay about 20% of income tax. Are you penalising the | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
younger generations for the health care of an older generation? It is | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
the first step in what we are describing as a 5-point recovery | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
plan for the NHS and care system. So, for what is available to us now, | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
it seems to be the fairest way of bringing in extra resources, income | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
tax is progressive, and is based on your ability to pay for your average | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
British worker. It would be ?3 per week which is the cost of less than | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
two cups of coffee per week. In the longer run, we say that by the end | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
of the next Parliament, we would be able to introduce a dedicated NHS | :05:16. | :05:22. | |
and care tax. Based, probably, around a reformed national insurance | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
system, so it becomes a dedicated NHS and care tax. Interestingly, the | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
former permanent secretary of the Treasury, Nick MacPherson, said | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
clearly that this idea merits further consideration which is the | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
first time anyone for the Treasury has bought into the idea of this. | :05:41. | :05:47. | |
Let me ask you this. You say it is a small amount of tax that people on | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
average incomes will have to pay extra. We are talking about people | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
who have seen no real increases to their income since 2007. They have | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
been struggling to stand still in terms of their own pay, but you are | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
going to add to their tax, and as I said earlier, most of the health | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
care money will then go to pensioners whose incomes have risen | :06:11. | :06:17. | |
by 15%. I'm interested in the fairness of this redistribution? | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
Bearing in mind first of all, Andrew, that the raising of the tax | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
threshold that the Liberal Democrats pushed through in the coalition | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
increased the effective pay in your pocket for basic rate taxpayers by | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
about ?1000. We are talking about a tiny fraction of that. I suppose | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
that you do have to ask, all of us in this country need to ask | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
ourselves this question... Are we prepared to pay, in terms of the | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
average worker, about ?3 extra per week to give us a guarantee that | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
when our loved ones need that care, in their hour of need, perhaps | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
suspected cancer, that care will be available for them? I have heard two | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
cases recently brought my attention. An elderly couple, the wife has a | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
very bad hip. They could not allow the weight to continue. She was told | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
that she would need to wait 26 weeks, she was in acute pain. They | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
then deduct paying ?20,000 for private treatment to circumvent | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
waiting time. They hated doing it, because they did not want to jump | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
the queue. But that is what is increasingly happening. Sorry to | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
interrupt, Norman Lamb comedy make very good points but we are short on | :07:33. | :07:39. | |
time today. One final question, it looks like you might have the chance | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
to do any of this, I'm told the best you can hope to do internally is to | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
double the number of seats you have, which would only take you to 18. Do | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
you think that promising to raise people's income tax, even those on | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
average earnings, is a vote winner? I think the people in this country | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
are crying out for politicians to be straight and tenet as it is. At the | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
moment we heading towards a Conservative landslide... -- tell it | :08:07. | :08:13. | |
as it is. But do we want a 1-party state? We are electing a government | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
not only to deal with the crucial Brexit negotiations, but oversee the | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
stewardship of the NHS and funding of our schools, all of these | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
critical issues. We need an effective opposition and with the | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
Labour Party having taken itself off stage, the Liberal Democrats need to | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
provide an effective opposition. Norman Lamb, thank you for joining | :08:34. | :08:35. | |
us this morning. Thank you. Labour and Tories are anxious | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
to stress the general election result is not a foregone conclusion, | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
whatever the polls say. Order you just heard Norman Lamb say | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
there that he thought the Conservatives were heading for a | :08:48. | :08:49. | |
landslide... But did Thursday's dramatic set | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
of local election results in England, Scotland and Wales give | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
us a better idea of how the country Here's Emma Vardy with | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
a behind-the-scenes look at how Good morning, it's seven o'clock | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
on Friday, May 5th... The dawn of another results day. | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
Anticipation hung in the air. Early results from the local | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
elections in England suggest there's been a substantial swing | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
from Labour to the Conservatives. While the pros did their thing, | :09:16. | :09:18. | |
I needed breakfast. Don't tell anyone, but I'm | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
going to pinch a sausage. The overnight counts had delivered | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
successes for the Tories. But with most councils | :09:25. | :09:26. | |
only getting started, there was plenty of action | :09:27. | :09:28. | |
still to come. It's not quite the night | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
of Labour's nightmares. There's enough mixed news | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
in Wales, for example - looks like they're about to hold | :09:37. | :09:38. | |
Cardiff - that they'll try and put But in really simple terms, | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
four weeks from a general election, the Tories are going forward | :09:42. | :09:48. | |
and Labour are going backwards. How does it compare being | :09:49. | :09:50. | |
in here to doing the telly? Huw, how do you prepare yourself | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
for a long day of results, then? We're not even on air yet, | :09:56. | :10:02. | |
as you can see, and already in Tory HQ this morning, | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
there's a kind of, "Oh, I'm scared this will make people | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
think the election's just I think leave it | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
like that - perfect. I want the Laura look. | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
This is really good, isn't it? Usually, we're in here | :10:18. | :10:19. | |
for the Daily Politics. But it's been transformed | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
for the Election Results programme. But hours went by without Ukip | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
winning a single seat. The joke going around | :10:30. | :10:40. | |
Lincolnshire County Council today from the Conservatives | :10:41. | :10:47. | |
is that the Tories have eaten We will rebrand | :10:48. | :10:49. | |
and come back strong. Morale, I think, is inevitably | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
going to take a bit of a tumble. Particularly if Theresa May starts | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
backsliding on Brexit. And then I think we will be | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
totally reinvigorated. There are a lot of good people | :11:02. | :11:04. | |
in Ukip and I wouldn't want to say anything unkind, | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
but we all know it's over. Ukip press officer. | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
Difficult job. Ukip weren't the only ones | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
putting a brave face on it. Labour were experiencing | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
their own disaster day too, losing hundreds of seats | :11:19. | :11:21. | |
and seven councils. If the result is what these | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
results appear to indicate, Can we have a quick word | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
for the Sunday Politics? A quick question for Sunday Politics | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
- how are you feeling? Downhearted or fired up for June? | :11:34. | :11:42. | |
Fired up, absolutely fired up. He's fired up. | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
We're going to go out there... We cannot go on with another | :11:47. | :11:48. | |
five years of this. How's it been for you today? | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
Tiring. It always is, but I love elections, | :11:52. | :11:54. | |
I really enjoy them. Yes, you know, obviously we're | :11:55. | :11:56. | |
disappointed at some of the results, it's been a mixed bag, | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
but some opinion polls and commentators predicted we'd be | :12:02. | :12:03. | |
wiped out - we haven't. As for the Lib Dems, | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
not the resurgence they hoped for, After a dead heat in Northumberland, | :12:09. | :12:11. | |
the control of a whole council came The section of England | :12:12. | :12:19. | |
in which we had elections yesterday was the section of England | :12:20. | :12:27. | |
that was most likely to vote Leave. When you go to sleep at night, | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
do you just have election results The answer is if that's still | :12:32. | :12:34. | |
happening, I don't get to sleep. There we go. | :12:35. | :12:41. | |
Maybe practice some yoga... Thank you very much | :12:42. | :12:42. | |
but I have one here. With the introduction | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
of six regional mayors, Labour's Andy Burnham | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
became Mr Manchester. But by the time Corbyn came | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
to celebrate, the new mayor We want you to stay for a second | :12:55. | :12:56. | |
because I've got some I used to present news, | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
as you probably know. I used to present BBC | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
Breakfast in the morning. The SNP had notable successes, | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
ending 40 years of Labour What did you prefer - | :13:09. | :13:10. | |
presenting or politics? And it certainly had been a hard day | :13:11. | :13:17. | |
at the office for some. Ukip's foothold in local government | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
was all but wiped out, leaving the Conservatives | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
with their best local So another election results | :13:29. | :13:29. | |
day draws to a close. But don't worry, we'll be doing it | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
all again in five weeks' time. For now, though, that's your lot. | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
Now let's look at some of Thursday's results in a little more detail, | :13:41. | :13:53. | |
and what they might mean for the wider fortunes | :13:54. | :13:55. | |
In England, there were elections for 34 councils. | :13:56. | :14:07. | |
The Conservatives took control of ten of them, | :14:08. | :14:09. | |
gaining over 300 seats, while Labour sustained | :14:10. | :14:11. | |
While the Lib Dems lost 28 seats, Ukip came close to extinction, | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
and can now boast of only one councillor in the whole of England. | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
In Scotland, the big story was Labour losing | :14:22. | :14:23. | |
a third of their seats, and control of three councils - | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
while the Tories more than doubled their number of councillors. | :14:27. | :14:28. | |
In Wales, both the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru made gains, | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
There was some encouraging news for Jeremy Corbyn's party | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
after Liverpool and Manchester both elected Labour mayors, | :14:39. | :14:40. | |
although the Tories narrowly won the West Midlands mayoral race. | :14:41. | :14:47. | |
We're joined now by who else but elections expert John Curtice. | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
You saw him in Emma's film, he's now back in Glasgow. | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
In broad terms, what do these local election results tell us about the | :14:55. | :15:07. | |
general election result? First we have to remember what Theresa May | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
wants to achieve in the general election is a landslide, and winning | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
a landslide means you have to win big in terms of votes. The local | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
election results certainly suggest Theresa May is well on course to win | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
the general election, at least with four weeks to go, and of course | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
people could change their minds. We all agree the Conservatives were | :15:29. | :15:31. | |
double-digit figures ahead of Labour in these elections. However, whereas | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
the opinion polls on average at the moment suggest there is a 17 point | :15:37. | :15:43. | |
Conservative lead, and that definitely would deliver a | :15:44. | :15:45. | |
landslide, it seems the local election figures, at least in | :15:46. | :15:48. | |
England, are pointing to something close to an 11 point Conservative | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
lead. That increase would not necessarily deliver a landslide that | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
she wants. The truth is, the next four weeks are probably not about | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
who wins this election unless something dramatic changes, but | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
there is still a battle as to whether or not Theresa May achieves | :16:07. | :16:09. | |
her objective of winning a landslide. She has to win big. The | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
local elections as she is not sure to be there, and therefore she is | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
going to have to campaign hard. Equally, while Labour did have most | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
prospect of winning, they still at least at the goal of trying to keep | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
the conservative majority relatively low, and therefore the Parliamentary | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
Labour Party are alive and kicking. Interesting that the local election | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
results don't produce a landslide if replicated on June 8th, but when I | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
looked at when local elections had taken place a month before the | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
general election, it was in 1983 and 1987. The Tories did well in both | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
local elections in these years, but come the general election, they | :16:51. | :16:53. | |
added five points to their share of the vote. No reason it should happen | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
again, but if it did, that would take them into landslide territory. | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
Absolutely right, if they do five points better than the local | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
elections, they are in landslide territory. We have to remember, in | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
1983, the Labour Party ran an inept campaign and their support ballet. | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
In 1987, David Owen and David Steele could not keep to the same lines. -- | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
their support fell away. That underlines how well the opposition | :17:24. | :17:26. | |
campaign in the next four weeks does potentially matter in terms of | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
Theresa May's ability to achieve their objective. It is worth | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
noticing in the opinion polls, two things have happened, first, Ukip | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
voters, a significant slice going to the Conservatives, which helped to | :17:40. | :17:42. | |
increase the Conservative leader in the bowels. But in the last week, | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
the Labour vote seems to have recovered. -- in the polls. So the | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
party is not that far short of what Ed Miliband got in 2015, so the | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
Conservative leader is back down to 16 or 17, as we started. So we | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
should not necessarily presume Labour are going to go backwards in | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
the way they did in 1983. I want to finish by asking if there are deeper | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
forces at work? Whether the referendum in this country is | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
producing a realignment in British politics. The Scottish referendum | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
has produced a kind of realignment in Scotland. And in a different way, | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
the Brexit referendum has produced a realignment in England and Wales. Do | :18:24. | :18:31. | |
you agree? You are quite right. Referendums are potentially | :18:32. | :18:34. | |
disruptive in Scotland, they helped to ensure the constitutional | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
question became the central issue, and the 45% who voted yes our been | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
faithful to the SNP since. Although the SNP put in a relatively | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
disappointing performance in Scotland on Thursday. Equally, south | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
of the border, on the leave side, in the past 12 months and particularly | :18:52. | :18:54. | |
the last few weeks, the Conservatives have corralled the | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
leave vote, about two thirds of those who voted leave now say they | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
will vote Conservative. Last summer, the figure was only 50%. On the | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
remain side, the vote is still fragmented. The reason why Theresa | :19:09. | :19:18. | |
May is in the strong position she is is not simply because the leave vote | :19:19. | :19:22. | |
has been realigned, but the remain vote has not. Thank you for joining | :19:23. | :19:30. | |
us. You can go through polls and wonder who is up and down, but I | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
wonder whether the Scottish and Brexit referendums have produced | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
fundamental changes. In Scotland, the real division now is between the | :19:40. | :19:46. | |
centre-left Nationalist party and the centre-right Unionist party. | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
That has had the consequence of squeezing out Labour in the | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
argument, never mind the Greens and the Lib Dems. In London, England, | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
Wales, the Brexit referendum seems to have produced a realignment of | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
the right to the Tories' advantage, and some trouble for the Labour blue | :20:06. | :20:14. | |
vote -- blue-collar vote. It works for the pro Brexit end of the | :20:15. | :20:21. | |
spectrum but not the other half. In the last century, we had people like | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
Roy Jenkins dreaming of and writing about the realignment of British | :20:26. | :20:28. | |
politics as though it could be consciously engineered, and in fact | :20:29. | :20:31. | |
what made it happen was just the calling of a referendum. It's not | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
something you can put about as a politician, it flows from below, | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
when the public begin to think of politics in terms of single issues, | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
dominant issues, such as leaving the European Union. Rather than a broad | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
spectrum designed by a political class. I wonder whether now Remain | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
have it in them to coalesce behind a single party. It doesn't look like | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
they can do it behind Labour. The Liberal Democrats are frankly too | :21:00. | :21:02. | |
small in Parliament to constitute that kind of force. The closest | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
thing to a powerful Remain party is the SNP which by definition has | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
limited appeal south of the border. It is hard. The realignment. We | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
don't know if it is permanent or how dramatic it will be, but there is | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
some kind of realignment going on. At the moment, it seems to be a | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
realignment that by and large is to the benefit of the Conservatives. | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
Without a doubt, and that can be directly attributed to the | :21:32. | :21:34. | |
disappearance of Ukip from the political landscape. I have been | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
saying since the referendum that I thought Ukip was finished. They | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
still seem to be staggering on under the illusion... Some people may have | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
picked up on Nigel Farage this morning saying that Ukip still had a | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
strong role to play until Brexit actually happens. But I think it's | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
very, very hard to convince the voters of that, because they feel | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
that, with the result of the referendum, that was Ukip's job | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
done. And those votes are not going to delay the party -- to the Labour | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
Party because of the flaws with Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, they are | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
shifting to the Tories. I agree. The key issue was the referendum. It has | :22:14. | :22:16. | |
produced a fundamental change that few predicted at the time it was | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
called. Most fundamental of all, it has brought about a unity in the | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
Conservative Party. With some exceptions, but they are now off | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
editing the Evening Standard and other things! This is now a party | :22:30. | :22:35. | |
united around Brexit. Since 1992, the Tories have been split over | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
Europe, at times fatally so. The referendum, in ways that David | :22:42. | :22:44. | |
Cameron did not anticipate, has brought about a united front for | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
this election. In a way, this is a sequel to the referendum, because | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
it's about Brexit but we still don't know what form Brexit is going to | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
take. By calling it early, Theresa May has in effect got another go at | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
a kind of Brexit referendum without knowing what Brexit is, with a | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
united Tory party behind her. We shall see if it is a blip or a | :23:07. | :23:08. | |
long-term trend in British politics. Now let's turn to Labour's big | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
campaign announcement today, and that was the promise of no | :23:13. | :23:14. | |
income tax rise for those earning less than ?80,000 - | :23:15. | :23:17. | |
which of course means those earning more than that could | :23:18. | :23:19. | |
face an increase. Here's Shadow Chancellor John | :23:20. | :23:21. | |
McDonell on the BBC earlier. What we are saying today, anyone | :23:22. | :23:30. | |
earning below ?80,000, we will guarantee you will not have an | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
increase in income tax, VAT or national insurance contributions. | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
For those above 80,000, we are asking them to pay a modest bit more | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
to fund our public services. A modest bit. You will see it will be | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
a modest increase. Talking about modest increases, so we can have a | :23:48. | :23:54. | |
society which we believe everyone shares the benefits of. | :23:55. | :23:57. | |
We're joined now by Shadow Justice Secretary Richard Burgon, in Leeds. | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
Mr McDonnell stressed that for those earning over 80,000, they would be | :24:03. | :24:08. | |
paying more but it would be modest. He used the word modest 45 times. | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
But there is only 1.2 million of them. -- 4-5 times. So that would | :24:14. | :24:20. | |
not raise much money. This is about the key part of this tax policy for | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
the many, not the few. We are saying that low earners and middle earners | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
won't be paying more tax under a Labour government, which is not a | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
policy the Conservatives have committed to yet. As John McDonnell | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
also said in his interview earlier, if there is a tax rise on the top 5% | :24:39. | :24:45. | |
of earners, earning over ?80,000, it would be a modest rise. I am trying | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
to work out what that would mean in terms of money. If it is too modest, | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
you don't raise much. What will happen is the Labour Party's | :24:57. | :24:59. | |
manifesto, published in the next couple of weeks, wilfully set out | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
and cost it. I can't make an announcement now. -- will fully set | :25:06. | :25:14. | |
out and cost it. Moving on to the local elections, Mr Corbyn says he | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
is closing the gap with the Tories. What evidence is there? John Curtis | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
just said there was an 11% gap in the results, Labour 11% behind. The | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
polls before that suggested Labour were anything up to 20% behind. Was | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
it a great day for Labour? Certainly not. Is there a lot to do between | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
now and June? Sure, but we are relishing every moment of that. | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
Comparing equivalent elections in 2013, the Tories increased their | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
share of the vote by 13%. You lost 2%. That's a net of 15%. In what way | :25:50. | :25:59. | |
is that closing the gap? We have gone down to 11 points behind. Am I | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
satisfied? Certainly not. Is Labour satisfied? Certainly not. A week is | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
a long time in politics, 4-5 weeks is even longer. The local elections | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
are over, the general election campaign is starting, and we want to | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
put out there the policies that will improve the lives of low and middle | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
income earners. And also many people looking to be well off as well. You | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
lost 133 seats in Scotland. Are you closing the gap in Scotland? The | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
journey back for Labour in Scotland, I always thought, wouldn't be an | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
easy one. Since the council election results and Scotland that we are | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
comparing this to, there has been an independence referendum and the | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
terrible results for Labour in the 2015 general election. So it is a | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
challenge, but one hundreds of thousands of Labour members are | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
determined to meet. That is why we're talking about bread and butter | :26:56. | :26:57. | |
policies to make people's lives better. These local elections took | :26:58. | :27:05. | |
place midtown. Normally mid-term was the worst time for a government. -- | :27:06. | :27:11. | |
took place midterm. And the best for an opposition. That is a feature of | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
British politics. So why did you lose 382 councillors in a midterm | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
election? As Andy Burnham said when he gave his acceptance speech after | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
his terrific first ballot result win in Manchester, it was an evening of | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
mixed results for Labour. Generally bad, wasn't it? Why did you lose all | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
of these councillors midterm? It is not a welcome result for Labour, I | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
am not going to be deluded. But what I and the Labour Party are focused | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
on is the next four weeks. And how we are going to put across policies | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
like free school meals for primary school children, ?10 an hour minimum | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
wage, the pledge not to increase tax for low and middle earners, 95% of | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
earners in this country. And saving the NHS from privatisation and | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
funding it properly. These are just some of the policies, including by | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
the way a boost in carers' allowance, that will make the lives | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
of people in Britain better off. Labour are for the many, not for the | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
few. But people like from political parties aspiring to government is to | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
be united and to be singing from the same song sheet among the leaders. | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
You mentioned Andy Burnham. Why did he not join Mr Corbyn when Jeremy | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
Corbyn went to the rally in Manchester on Friday to celebrate | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
his victory? First of all, Andy Burnham did a radio interview | :28:40. | :28:42. | |
straight after his great victory in which he said Jeremy Corbyn helped | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
him to win votes in that election. Why didn't he turn up? As to the | :28:47. | :28:52. | |
reason Andy Burnham wasn't there at the meeting Jeremy was doing in | :28:53. | :28:58. | |
Manchester, it was because, I understand, Andy was booked into | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
celebrate his victory with his family that night. I don't begrudge | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
him that and hopefully you don't. The leader has made the effort to | :29:07. | :29:09. | |
travel to Manchester to celebrate one of the few victories you enjoyed | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
on Thursday, surely you would join the leader and celebrate together? | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
Well, I don't regard, and I am sure you don't, Andy Burnham a nice time | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
with his family... -- I don't begrudge. He made it clear Jeremy | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
Corbyn assisted him. I can see you are not convinced yourself. I am | :29:30. | :29:37. | |
convinced. The outgoing Labour leader in Derbyshire lost his seat | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
on Thursday, you lost Derbyshire, which was a surprise in itself... He | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
said that genuine party supporters said they were not voting Labour | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
while you have Jeremy Corbyn as leader. Are you hearing that on the | :29:52. | :29:58. | |
doorstep too? I have been knocking on hundreds of doors this week in my | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
constituency and elsewhere. And of course, you never get every single | :30:03. | :30:05. | |
voter thinking the leader of any political party is the greatest | :30:06. | :30:12. | |
thing since sliced bread. But it's only on a minority of doorsteps that | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
people are criticising the Labour leader. Most people aren't even | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
talking about these questions. Most people are talking about Jeremy | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
Corbyn's policies, free primary school meals, ?10 an hour minimum | :30:26. | :30:32. | |
wage. Also policies such as paternity pay, maternity pay and | :30:33. | :30:34. | |
sickness pay for the self-employed, that have been hard-pressed under | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
this government. So I don't recognise that pitch of despondency, | :30:39. | :30:41. | |
but I understand that in different areas, in local elections, | :30:42. | :30:47. | |
perspectives are different. That was Derbyshire. The outgoing Labour | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
leader of Nottinghamshire County Council said there was concern on | :30:52. | :30:54. | |
the doorstep about whether Jeremy Corbyn was the right person to lead | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
the Labour Party, and even Rotherham, loyal to Mr Corbyn, won | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
the mail contest in Liverpool, he said that the Labour leader was more | :31:05. | :31:10. | |
might on the doorstep. -- the mayor contest. Does that explain some of | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
the performance on Thursday? I am confident that in the next four | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
weeks, when we get into coverage on television, that people will see | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
further the kind of open leadership Jeremy provides. In contrast to | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
Theresa May's refusal to meet ordinary people. She came to my | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
constituency and I don't think that a single person who lives here. And | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
also she is ducking the chance to debate with Jeremy Corbyn on TV. She | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
should do it and let the people decide. I don't know why she won't. | :31:40. | :31:46. | |
Finally, the Labour mantra is that you are the party of the ordinary | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
people, why is it the case that among what advertisers call C2s, D | :31:51. | :32:03. | |
and E', how can you on the pulse of that social group, how can you do | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
that? Our policy is to assist, protect and improve the living | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
standards of people in those groups and our policy is to protect the | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
living standards of the majority... They do not seem to be convinced? We | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
have four weeks to convince them and I believe that we will. Thank you | :32:22. | :32:23. | |
for coming onto the programme. But the wooden spoon from Thursday's | :32:24. | :32:26. | |
elections undoubtedly went to Ukip. Four years ago the party | :32:27. | :32:32. | |
won its best ever local government performance, | :32:33. | :32:34. | |
but this time its support just Ukip's share of the vote | :32:35. | :32:36. | |
plunging by as much as 18 points, most obviously | :32:37. | :32:39. | |
benefiting the Conservatives. So is it all over for | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
the self-styled people's army? Well we're joined now | :32:44. | :32:46. | |
by the party's leader in the Welsh Assembly, | :32:47. | :32:48. | |
Neil Hamilton, he's in Cardiff. Neil Hamilton, welcome. Ukip | :32:49. | :32:58. | |
finished local elections gaining the same number of councillors as the | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
Rubbish Party, one. That sums up your prospects, doesn't | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
it? Rubbish? We have been around a long time and seemed that I'd go | :33:09. | :33:15. | |
out, go in again, we will keep calm and carry on. We are in a phoney | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
war, negotiations on Brexit have not started but what we know from | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
Theresa May is that in seven years, as Home Secretary and Prime | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
Minister, she has completely failed to control immigration which was one | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
of the great driving forces behind the Brexit result. I'm not really | :33:31. | :33:37. | |
looking for any great success in immigration from the Tories, and a | :33:38. | :33:40. | |
lot of people who have previously voted for Ukip will be back in our | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
part of the field again. They don't seem to care about that at the | :33:45. | :33:50. | |
moment, your party lost 147 council seats. You gain one. It is time to | :33:51. | :33:56. | |
shut up shop, isn't it? You are right, the voters are not focusing | :33:57. | :33:59. | |
on other domestic issues at the moment. They have made up their | :34:00. | :34:02. | |
minds going into these negotiations in Brussels, Theresa May, as Prime | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
Minister, needs as much support as she can get. I think they are wrong | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
in this respect, it would be better to have a cohort of Ukip MPs to back | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
her up. She was greatly helped by the intervention of Mr Juncker last | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
week as well, the stupidity in how the European Commission has tried to | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
bully the British government, in those circumstances the British | :34:29. | :34:31. | |
people will react in one way going the opposite way to what the | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
Brussels establishment one. She has been fortunate as an acute tactician | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
in having the election now. I struggle to see the way back for | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
your party. You aren't a threat to the Tories in the south. Ukip voters | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
are flocking to the Tories in the south. You don't threaten Labour in | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
the north. It is the Tories who threaten Labour now in the north. | :34:54. | :34:56. | |
There is no room to progress, is there? The reality will be is that | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
once we are back on the domestic agenda again, and the Brexit | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
negotiations are concluded, we will know what the outcome is. And the | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
focus will be on bread and butter issues. We have all sorts of | :35:13. | :35:15. | |
policies in our programme which other parties cannot match us on. | :35:16. | :35:22. | |
The talk is putting up taxes to help the health service, we would scrap | :35:23. | :35:25. | |
the foreign aid budget and put another ?8 billion in the health | :35:26. | :35:28. | |
service, no other party says that. These policies would be popular with | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
the ordinary working person. Is Paul Nuttall to blame on the meltdown of | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
what happened, no matter who is leader? These are cosmic forces | :35:40. | :35:40. | |
beyond the control of any individual leader? These are cosmic forces | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
at the moment, it is certainly not Paul Nuttall's .com he's been in the | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
job for six months and in half that time he was fighting a by-election | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
-- certainly not Paul Nuttall's time he was fighting a by-election | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
fault. We have two become more time he was fighting a by-election | :35:57. | :35:58. | |
professional than we have been recently. It has not been a | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
brilliant year for Ukip one way or another, as you know, but there are | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
prospects, in future, that are very rosy. I do not believe that the | :36:08. | :36:10. | |
Tories will deliver on other promises that they are now making. | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
The Welsh assembly elections are not until 2021, you are a member of | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
that, but at that point you will not have any MEPs, because we will be | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
out on the timetable. With this current showing he will have no | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
end', you could be Ukip's most senior elected representative. That | :36:30. | :36:39. | |
would be a turnout for the books! -- no elected MPs. The Tories are not | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
promoting the policies that I believe them. You will see that in | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
the Ukip manifesto when it is shortly publish... Leaders talk | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
mainly about the male genital mutilation and is -- female and | :36:53. | :37:02. | |
burqas. No, when the manifesto launched, we have a lot of policies, | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
I spoke moments ago about it, but also on foreign aid. Scrapping green | :37:09. | :37:15. | |
taxes, to cut people's electricity bills by ?300 per year on average. | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
There are a lot of popular policies that we have. We will hear more from | :37:20. | :37:27. | |
that in the weeks to come. Paul Nuttall said "If the price of | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
written leaving the year is a Tory advance after taking up this | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
patriarch course, it is a price that Ukip is prepared to pay". That | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
sounds like a surrender statement? It is a statement of fact, the main | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
agenda is to get out of the EU and have full Brexit. That is why Ukip | :37:47. | :37:53. | |
came into existence 20 years ago. When it is achieved, we go back to | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
the normal political battle lines. Niall Hamilton in Cardiff, thank you | :37:58. | :37:59. | |
very much for joining us. It's just gone 11.35am, | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
you're watching the Sunday Politics. Good morning and welcome | :38:04. | :38:12. | |
to Sunday Politics Scotland. The SNP won most | :38:13. | :38:13. | |
local council seats. While the Tories made | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
significant gains. As the battle lines are drawn anew, | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
we look at the prospects And as France heads to the polls, | :38:21. | :38:23. | |
we'll be asking if TV debates really TRANSLATION: Yes, they deserve the | :38:24. | :38:42. | |
truth. I treat the French like adults, I don't lie to them. | :38:43. | :38:44. | |
I treat the French like adults, I don't lie to them. | :38:45. | :38:47. | |
Local election results don't always have us on the edge of our seats. | :38:48. | :38:50. | |
But when they come just a few weeks before a general election, | :38:51. | :38:53. | |
it's natural to wonder if they're an indicator of things to come. | :38:54. | :38:56. | |
The SNP and the Tories had much to celebrate. | :38:57. | :38:58. | |
The Nationalists now the biggest group in councils | :38:59. | :39:00. | |
But it was the Tories who saw some of the biggest gains of the night. | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
In a moment, we'll chew over what it all means. | :39:06. | :39:07. | |
This is what regime change looks like, the First Minister parading | :39:08. | :39:19. | |
her 39 councillors, as the SNP overtakes Labour in its Glasgow | :39:20. | :39:22. | |
heartland. There is no doubting the overall winner was in this election | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
and what you see is history in the making. They used to top of red | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
Clydeside, but note the city Chambers is a sea of yellow. It's | :39:31. | :39:36. | |
not just here in Glasgow, read throughout the country, the SNP have | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
taken the lead in more local authorities than ever before. Take | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
taken the lead in more local Edinburgh for example, for the first | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
time the SNP is the biggest group on the council. Remarkable free party | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
which didn't have a single Edinburgh councillor as recently as 2003. | :39:52. | :39:58. | |
However, in places like yes vote in Dundee, the Nationalists lost their | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
overall majority. While the Tories have seen gains. Should be barred to | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
be worried? That is just something to do with the STV system. We have | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
this strange system in Scotland where we have four major elections | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
under four different voting systems. I don't think people understand the | :40:15. | :40:20. | |
difference. Do you think the SNP will be worried about the rise of | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
the Conservatives? Not really, because I think we're seeing in the | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
Scottish Parliament that Nicola Sturgeon actually picked his death | :40:29. | :40:31. | |
as the SNP against the Conservatives. She thinks there is, | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
and I agree with her, there is a limit, a ceiling to the Conservative | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
vote in Scotland and she will be looking for disaffected Labour | :40:42. | :40:44. | |
people to come to SNP rather than go to the Conservatives. | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
CHEERING But it is the Tories who have | :40:48. | :40:50. | |
grabbed the headlines. The only party in the selection to make big | :40:51. | :40:58. | |
gains overall. Who would have thought it? Who indeed. Meet | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
20-year-old Thomas care, the first Conservative councillor ever elected | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
in Glasgow Shettleston. The polls predicted a Tory surge, but if you | :41:09. | :41:13. | |
imagined they would see gains in the country's most deprived areas. You | :41:14. | :41:22. | |
don't know any Tories around your? Definitely not. They must have put | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
in the wrong number down. Do you know anyone around you is but a | :41:27. | :41:30. | |
Conservative? A feud. I think if you have swayed towards the way the yes | :41:31. | :41:37. | |
vote went. Celtic, Rangers, getting involved in politics. It is quite | :41:38. | :41:44. | |
clear that there are real no-go areas for Tories now. Even though | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
people might say they will not fulfil eateries, they clearly are. | :41:48. | :41:51. | |
Even though of course the voting system means a new local elections | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
they could not have been a first preference, they could have been | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
second or third. There are still crosses in those boxes now which I | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
think would have been on the ball ten years ago. Would you think this | :42:03. | :42:10. | |
resurgence has come from? -- where. It is not surprising, because it has | :42:11. | :42:13. | |
been coming for quite a long time in Scotland. They had a low base start, | :42:14. | :42:23. | |
but these are with MPs such as Ruth Davidson, there has been a nicer | :42:24. | :42:26. | |
name of the Tory party that the leaders of the Tories in Scotland | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
have had have been personable, very attractive speakers that I think has | :42:32. | :42:38. | |
been of huge benefit to the Tories. But with no mainstream party having | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
automatic control of any council, coalitions will have to be formed | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
and deals done. Given the deed constitutional divide in Scotland, | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
don't hold your breath waiting for any deals between the SNP and the | :42:52. | :42:54. | |
Well, joining me now are the SNP's former | :42:55. | :42:57. | |
Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill and the former Tory | :42:58. | :42:59. | |
Kenny MacAskill, I am curious, given the SNP did very well in these local | :43:00. | :43:12. | |
elections, the Tories did extremely well compare to where they were | :43:13. | :43:15. | |
coming from, where that leaves this idea of a second independence | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
referendum? Do you think it was wise for the Scottish Government makes | :43:21. | :43:23. | |
achieving about it? I think they had no alternative given what happened | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
with the Brexit vote and were Scotland clearly went any | :43:28. | :43:28. | |
significant diffident direction. I Scotland clearly went any | :43:29. | :43:35. | |
don't think it's necessarily immediately on the horizon, because | :43:36. | :43:37. | |
we still don't know where we're going with Brexit, whether we are | :43:38. | :43:40. | |
shooting over the cliff or whether we are going to be able to pull | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
back, so this is going to continue to run and run. The push for an | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
independence referendum came because of actions taken by the UK | :43:49. | :43:53. | |
Government and by an electorate third of the border. Are you saying, | :43:54. | :43:55. | |
when you say it's not an third of the border. Are you saying, | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
prospect, what are you saying in four or five or six years' time? I | :44:00. | :44:08. | |
think it depends upon events. In the rest to begin shooting onto the | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
agenda because of the Brexit vote that had not been anticipated. -- | :44:12. | :44:18. | |
independence referendum. Equally, I think it is hard to see how you can | :44:19. | :44:21. | |
have an independence referendum without having some clarity about | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
just what Brexit negotiations are going to result in. Whether it's | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
going to become amateurs, but equally, what the alternative is | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
going to be. Those factors on both have to put before the electorate | :44:34. | :44:36. | |
and at the present moment, they are not there from either side. Do think | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
it would be wiser as an ex-Minister for the Scottish Government to have | :44:42. | :44:44. | |
it be more like what you're saying, which is to say we reserve our | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
options here and we will await anti-white happens, rather than | :44:49. | :44:51. | |
saying, you is the timetable we want to have one by next spring. The | :44:52. | :44:58. | |
timetable is not going to be within the grasp of the Scottish | :44:59. | :45:01. | |
Government, so I think there are going to be difficulties there. | :45:02. | :45:05. | |
People want clarity, but I do think the SNP Government was to them | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
People want clarity, but I do think events. Scotland today markedly | :45:10. | :45:11. | |
different position from the UK on Brexit. The referendum was quite | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
clear about that. The rest were the hard Brexit posted by Theresa May, | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
the language that she has used in the last few weeks is reminiscent of | :45:20. | :45:26. | |
almost preparing for war rather than delicate negotiations of the | :45:27. | :45:29. | |
diplomatic nature, so some of these things are beyond the Scottish | :45:30. | :45:32. | |
Government's control and had to react to them. Again, the SNP did | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
emerge as by far the largest party, but when Nicola Sturgeon says it is | :45:38. | :45:43. | |
ludicrous to claim there has been a backlash against the SNP, given the | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
rise of the Tory vote, surely if ludicrously hard to say it's | :45:48. | :45:50. | |
ludicrous? Clearly there has been. No, nobody can deny they have had a | :45:51. | :45:58. | |
good result. But the other not had the results Margaret Thatcher even | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
John Major was pulling in 1992. There has always been a right of | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
centre vote in Scotland, it hasn't really had that representation | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
probably because of factors coming from London. They are trying to get | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
back to where they were in the 1980s. They are certainly not | :46:15. | :46:16. | |
getting back to the position where they were in the 1950s. This | :46:17. | :46:23. | |
election was won by the SNP. There was a areas where they suffered by | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
tactical voting and a Unionist alliance. There were areas where | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
they know themselves the under middle and their laurels with the | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
general election coming. It it was a victory for the SNP and it was a | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
good night for the Conservatives and disastrous for the Labour Party. I'm | :46:40. | :46:46. | |
not quite sure what your message is that you're trying to send out about | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
the second independence referendum? The indication seems to be there if | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
the SNP don't get 50% or more any general election, somehow they have | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
no mandate for it. I think the big mistake that Nicola Sturgeon made | :47:01. | :47:03. | |
was assuming that all of her supporters, the SNP supporters, were | :47:04. | :47:09. | |
against Brexit and the fact is, tens of thousands of them were in fact in | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
favour Brexit. So we are seeing is an off uncertainty and division cars | :47:14. | :47:21. | |
to buy the first referendum whereby only 2.5 years ago we gave a solid | :47:22. | :47:29. | |
vote 55% to 45%. The fact is, the Scottish Government say we have in | :47:30. | :47:31. | |
our manifesto that if the circumstances are Brexit have arisen | :47:32. | :47:40. | |
because of Brexit, we will use that for a second independence | :47:41. | :47:44. | |
referendum. Bruising that that doesn't matter? I saying that two | :47:45. | :47:47. | |
thirds of the votes cast on Thursday, and a Member that will be | :47:48. | :47:53. | |
a much bigger pool in the general election, two thirds of those were | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
for Unionist parties. The messages that we want the referendum. The | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
normal way we work in politics is that if you see something in your | :48:03. | :48:05. | |
manifesto and then you win the election, you then do it. If you | :48:06. | :48:08. | |
don't do it, the SNP were not keeping commitments in their | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
manifesto, you'd be screaming if it was things over things like | :48:13. | :48:14. | |
manifesto, you'd be screaming if it education and health. They are only | :48:15. | :48:20. | |
keeping their manifesto by having a second independence referendum. By | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
being obsessed with it, the our breaking manifesto. McGregor not | :48:26. | :48:28. | |
answering my question about whether or not you think they have no | :48:29. | :48:31. | |
mandate or whether prounion parties getting over 50% in general | :48:32. | :48:39. | |
elections means that the SNP have less of a mandate? I think they are | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
treading water on Thursday compared to... You're not answering my | :48:44. | :48:46. | |
question! Iamb answering your question. It is clear that there is | :48:47. | :48:55. | |
a majority in Scotland who don't want this referendum. People don't | :48:56. | :48:58. | |
want uncertainty. They want the day job to be done by Nicola Sturgeon | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
and her ministers. They want education to improve. Would you | :49:04. | :49:06. | |
challenge to write to have won if she wants to? Well, I would. I would | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
see the majority in Scotland don't want it. It was a bad idea to have | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
it in your manifesto in the first place. Kenny MacAskill, ginger | :49:16. | :49:20. | |
subject. Labour's plans on tax. These said would be any taxes on | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
subject. Labour's plans on tax. people earning over ?80,000 a year. | :49:25. | :49:32. | |
subject. Labour's plans on tax. -- under. What do you make of that? | :49:33. | :49:39. | |
You can't ask me about the SNP. I would have to say I am not | :49:40. | :49:42. | |
frightened by these things in any way. Far from being some Marxist | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
resurgent John McDonnell, if the policies that are even watered down | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
from Denis Healey. It was him he was herald up by likening Tories know as | :49:52. | :49:57. | |
a manager that Labour should be following. He was going to taxi rich | :49:58. | :50:05. | |
until the pips squeak. I have to say, I don't see why people are | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
getting any palaver. 95% of people... C quite like this idea? | :50:10. | :50:16. | |
Eye think there comes a time when we have to decide what society is about | :50:17. | :50:22. | |
Eye think there comes a time when we soul that is right the coming | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
general election is not going to be about Indyref 2, it will be about | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
the society we seek. And I fear what kind of society the Tories will | :50:32. | :50:39. | |
create. I quite like the policies that Denis Healey carried out and I | :50:40. | :50:48. | |
think people thought the government is under... It has been overblown. | :50:49. | :50:56. | |
John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn I think are incompetent. I have to say | :50:57. | :50:59. | |
the policies they put forward are not the policies of... The policies | :51:00. | :51:06. | |
being put forward by the Tories are right wing and it is becoming more | :51:07. | :51:12. | |
right wing. What do you make of Nicola Sturgeon's comment that it is | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
ludicrous to say there is a backlash against the SNP? She has got a | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
point, the SNP are by far the biggest party in these local | :51:24. | :51:27. | |
elections. You may have done well, but you are way behind. SNP lost | :51:28. | :51:32. | |
elections. You may have done well, overall control in Dundee and Angus, | :51:33. | :51:35. | |
that is part of the Hartland. They have no overall control in any | :51:36. | :51:42. | |
council now. They are the biggest party in most cases, including | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
Glasgow. That is no surprise. They have been the biggest party in | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
elections in the past ten years. But they are treading water. Using there | :51:52. | :51:57. | |
is a backlash? John Curtin said Thursday was a disappointing day for | :51:58. | :52:04. | |
the SNP. They have not made any gains, we made huge gains. Do you | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
think it is a backlash against the SNP by the idea of a second | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
independence referendum? I think it is both. People are sick to death of | :52:15. | :52:16. | |
Indyref 2. Thank you both very much. Now, let's turn to the fortunes | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
of the other parties. The Tory resurgence pushed | :52:21. | :52:22. | |
Labour into third place The Liberal Democrats flat-lined | :52:23. | :52:24. | |
overall, but saw some encouraging gains in seats they're targeting | :52:25. | :52:27. | |
in the general election. And the Greens saw a record number | :52:28. | :52:29. | |
of councillors elected. Labour has held control of Glasgow | :52:30. | :52:41. | |
since 1980 and was dominant for their kids before, but on Friday | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
that hold was broken. Across Scotland Labour lost seats, councils | :52:46. | :52:53. | |
and power. These are not good election results for the Labour | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
Party. They come in a sequence of retreat and advisers. That is bad, | :53:00. | :53:02. | |
Party. They come in a sequence of there is a problem about strategy | :53:03. | :53:07. | |
and a UK level and Scotland level. It is not as bad as it could've | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
been. In Glasgow they have lost control of the city they have | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
reclaimed 30% of the vote. This is not as bad as it could have been | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
reclaimed 30% of the vote. This is foreign labour versus expectations. | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
They are still sort of semi-alive and insignificant parts of the | :53:26. | :53:31. | |
country, the West of Scotland, Edinburgh and Dundee they have got | :53:32. | :53:35. | |
significant representation. But it most cases Labour votes did not go | :53:36. | :53:38. | |
to the SNP but the Tories. They are adamant they can turn their fortunes | :53:39. | :53:46. | |
around, turning -- pointing out they are second in many seats. They think | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
they can trump the Tories as the main Unionist opposition. The | :53:52. | :53:54. | |
Liberal Democrats mostly held steady, although from a base in some | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
cases which was low. They made progress in areas they are targeting | :53:59. | :54:04. | |
to win in next month was 's general election, polling 52% in one of the | :54:05. | :54:07. | |
words and Edinburgh West. When you have such a massive Tory surge come | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
through and we have come out of it unscathed, that is really quietening | :54:13. | :54:18. | |
courage insane. It has put us in a very strong position to win places | :54:19. | :54:24. | |
like Edinburgh West and North East Fife and East Dunbartonshire. And | :54:25. | :54:27. | |
some seats in the Highlands, too. It has been very clear that we have | :54:28. | :54:34. | |
made gains and the result in Edinburgh is fantastic, doubling | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
representation and the sort of result in East Berkshire. The Greens | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
had a record number of candidates elected giving them a presence on | :54:44. | :54:45. | |
had a record number of candidates six councils and the good play a | :54:46. | :54:48. | |
pivotal role in Glasgow City Council, should the SNP decide not | :54:49. | :54:53. | |
to operate as a minority administration. | :54:54. | :54:55. | |
With me now to discuss their party's prospects are Labour's James Kelly | :54:56. | :54:58. | |
and Alex Cole-Hamilton from the Liberal Democrats. | :54:59. | :55:01. | |
Alex, you heard Karen Lindsey there saying when the Tories were surging, | :55:02. | :55:12. | |
it was terrific that the Liberal Democrats held their own. The | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
trouble is that it was you who were supposed to be surging. According to | :55:17. | :55:19. | |
Tim Farron you were going to make huge gains and you have got nowhere. | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
I don't agree at all. Our best result in this election were in | :55:26. | :55:28. | |
those days where we were at the main contention to take this leads from | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
Westminster constituencies. In North contention to take this leads from | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
East Fife where we beat them contention to take this leads from | :55:38. | :55:46. | |
15%. Losing overall for councillors in Scotland is a tremendous triumph? | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
I pay tribute to those councillors who lost. This is an election where | :55:51. | :55:57. | |
there was a national narrative, Theresa May was asking them to vote | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
whether national ticket. We held our own across the country, but over all | :56:03. | :56:10. | |
the SNP in places like East Dumbartonshire, and Dundee and the | :56:11. | :56:14. | |
Highlands, to put and a good position to cars upsets. Are you | :56:15. | :56:18. | |
going to win sees that you just said, you mention? Absolutely. We | :56:19. | :56:24. | |
have activists already on the ground. We see attrition in the SNP | :56:25. | :56:32. | |
vote and these results, it was an STV election when tactical voting | :56:33. | :56:36. | |
does not happen. This was before Pan unionists comment, N Easter March, | :56:37. | :56:50. | |
in Fife and Edinburgh. James Kelly, one of the reasons, perhaps the main | :56:51. | :56:53. | |
reason that the Tories did well, is the position themselves as being the | :56:54. | :57:00. | |
people who are opposed to independence, to another | :57:01. | :57:02. | |
independence referendum and the people who want to retain the United | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
Kingdom. All things which are officially Labour policy. Wide you | :57:07. | :57:12. | |
think it is the conservatives who have managed to position and get all | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
these votes by opposing another independence referendum and not | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
Labour? Because to an extent the Conservatives have become a one | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
issue party. We were clear in the selection we are opposed to | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
independence, a second independence referendum, but we also promoted | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
candidates who were going to stand up for the communities, support | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
public services... But the bottom line is that voters... Tories had | :57:38. | :57:44. | |
nothing to say anything about that. But a lot of voters do not want | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
another independence referendum. Ruth Davidson is good to stop it. | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
Labour, I do not know what they are going to do. What are you going to | :57:54. | :57:56. | |
see in the general election to stop all those people who voted Tory in | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
the local elections, doing exactly the same thing as remark we have got | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
a much more wider and in-depth political messages than the | :58:05. | :58:10. | |
Conservatives. That is saying the electorate are too daft to | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
understand the nuances of your policy. On Thursday, Nicola Sturgeon | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
acted as a recruiting Sergeant for the Tories and people use their | :58:20. | :58:21. | |
votes in protest, voting Tory. the Tories and people use their | :58:22. | :58:27. | |
they could have voted for Labour. They didn't. In these elections | :58:28. | :58:35. | |
coming up, the real reason for these elections is that Labour are in | :58:36. | :58:38. | |
second place. In the vast majority of seats across the country, they | :58:39. | :58:41. | |
are now compared them in these seats. You are John -- running the | :58:42. | :58:48. | |
general election campaign. You going to convince people who voted | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
Conservative Cosby do not want another independence referendum, | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
that Labour is the way to persist that. If you do not want that in | :58:57. | :59:02. | |
Scotland, vote Labour. We are talking about the issues that matter | :59:03. | :59:06. | |
to people. Now, for these photos, look, we have got some proposals | :59:07. | :59:11. | |
about the health service. Now, the main thing is we do not want an | :59:12. | :59:15. | |
independence referendum. Why should we vote Labour question work that is | :59:16. | :59:19. | |
patronising to see people do not care about education and the health | :59:20. | :59:25. | |
service. So why did they vote Conservative? Why did they not | :59:26. | :59:33. | |
fought for you? We will speak about investment in public services, | :59:34. | :59:37. | |
prioritising and tackling issues that matter to people. Do the | :59:38. | :59:41. | |
Liberal Democrats have any better ideas how to sweep up the | :59:42. | :59:44. | |
anti-independence for? You were more ideas how to sweep up the | :59:45. | :59:49. | |
hard line against the second independence referendum than the | :59:50. | :59:53. | |
Tories were. But people voted Tory rather than liberal Democrat. You | :59:54. | :00:01. | |
will see more Tory voters coming over in seats like eastern | :00:02. | :00:05. | |
Berkshire, Argyll and Bute and five to do that. -- eastern Berkshire. We | :00:06. | :00:13. | |
are the only party who stand on the political stage offering Scotland | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
stronger as part of the United Kingdom, and the youth key stronger | :00:18. | :00:24. | |
as part of the European union. We are the only party offering them | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
that. There are reports this morning that Tim Farron and his team, having | :00:29. | :00:35. | |
had a long baleful look at the local election results, have decided the | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
best they can hope for in the general election is to double the | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
number of seats to name. Is that your view? From the hallway you have | :00:43. | :00:48. | |
been talking this morning, it seems you have two or three seats in | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
Scotland you would like to target and your ambitions do not go much | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
further than that. On the contrary. I was on the phone to the federal | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
director of campaigns last night asking that we escalate national | :01:03. | :01:10. | |
investment in seats like Caithness because of the strength of the | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
council results. We are looking to return in strength in Scotland. Are | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
you looking for a Liberal Democrats to become the main opposition? The | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
main opposition party? What was your question question work Tim Farron | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
has been saying that the four domain general election, he wants to be the | :01:29. | :01:36. | |
main opposition. They are asleep at the wheel. We have to increase our | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
national vote share by 7%. We are back in touching distance of Clegg | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
mania back in 2010. You cannot say we are not in position to be that | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
mania back in 2010. You cannot say official opposition when we see a | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
Labour Party that does not know what it believes about Brexit. We are the | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
only party standing up for those 40% of people who voted for roaming. We | :02:01. | :02:02. | |
are out of time. To be continued. The French are at the polls today | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
with the recent fiery TV debate between the two candidates | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
still ringing in their ears. While most of the party leaders have | :02:11. | :02:12. | |
signed up to argue with each other in front of the cameras, | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
the two main contenders for That might impact on the programme's | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
television appeal, but will it have Jonathan Rippon's been looking | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
at a format that has become part of the American electoral landscape, | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
but has a rather more The candidates need no introduction. | :02:29. | :02:41. | |
The first US presidential debate took place in 1960. Nixon came | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
across a shifty and sweaty, compared to the cool and useful Kennedy. Some | :02:48. | :02:53. | |
women cost the election. In the last year's debates, many thought Hillary | :02:54. | :02:55. | |
Clinton outperformed Donald Trump year's debates, many thought Hillary | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
but he still won the election. Donald Trump is not in charge of the | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
law in our country. Because you would be in jail how important are | :03:04. | :03:10. | |
the TV debates? Britain's first was in 2010. With leaders from the three | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
main UK parties at the time. The SNP were not happy at being excluded and | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
went to court. If they had won, the BBC faced having to black out the | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
debate to viewers in Scotland. We are pleased to be able to bring the | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
prime ministerial debates to the people of Scotland and in that | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
regard we take responsibility in terms of due impartiality, fairness | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
and independence very seriously. Nicola Sturgeon, deputy leader of | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
the SNP at the time, had to watch the debate on TV. What a difference | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
a few years makes. In 2015 David Cameron was regularly pursued by a | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
chicken as he tried to dodge another debate. Eventually he relented but | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
on condition that every other leader to part two. Nicola Sturgeon's | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
performance was judged as a success and her party went on to landslide | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
vote today in Scotland. But with the two events related? Less than two | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
years later and it is line again. Well it is for some. We will not be | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
doing the TV debates. Theresa May has made it clear she will not take | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
part in a TV debate. She says it is about leadership barters refusing to | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
defend her record in television debates. Jeremy Corbyn has since | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
decided he will not be taking part either. ITV is going ahead without | :04:33. | :04:35. | |
decided he will not be taking part the Labour or Tory leaders. The BBC | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
says that no leader should stop a programme in the people's interests. | :04:43. | :04:51. | |
Many now believe the real debate has moved online and the major parties | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
are expected to spend millions on a social media campaigns this time | :04:56. | :04:56. | |
around. Well, joining me now from London | :04:57. | :04:58. | |
is Professor Charlie Beckett from the LSE's department | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
of media and communications. The obvious question is do these | :05:03. | :05:12. | |
things make a blind bit of difference? Television is important. | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
things make a blind bit of Photos tell us that is where they | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
get most of their information and the TV debates are the most dramatic | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
form of political television, it is where the TV can really reach out to | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
people who are not the kind of people who will watch a programme. | :05:29. | :05:41. | |
We have just been talking to a Liberal Democrat who said Clegg | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
mania is back, but arguably it never arrived. The Lib Dems didn't appear | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
to get actually much of an update from it in the general election that | :05:50. | :05:56. | |
followed. No, it may not have translated into votes, but it | :05:57. | :05:59. | |
certainly made it a much more interesting campaign, just as Nicola | :06:00. | :06:02. | |
Sturgeon did last time around, when suddenly the rest of the UK were | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
introduced to her. That may have had a negative impact, because the | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
Tories put out a scary story about the SMP and Labour. I think it | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
animates the campaigns, even if it doesn't change the results. That's | :06:15. | :06:22. | |
the most important point of media during the campaigns. Democracy is | :06:23. | :06:24. | |
the most important point of media not just about the result, the ideal | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
that we have a proper conversation, including with the leaders. I wonder | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
if journalists and commentators interpret this, because what happens | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
is you have the TV debate and be hacked and what they mean. But for | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
example during the American presidential campaign, everyone said | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
Tom was full and anyone the election. Was it that he did better | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
because he is somehow by other means convinced people? -- Donald Trump | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
was full. Or is it that sitting watching it, all the commentators | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
misinterpreted what the American people absolutely, journalists over | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
interpret. The love the drama, there it is. They would at the | :07:07. | :07:13. | |
personalities, they look at the glitches. They miss out the basic | :07:14. | :07:14. | |
messages. Thinking about David glitches. They miss out the basic | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
Cameron, when you look to the most serious polls, David Cameron got his | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
basic point across. It's not really about changing things overnight, | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
it's about getting the fundamental messages about your character and | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
your policies indeed out to a much wider audience. You think that | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
Emmanuel Macron, Marine Le Pen debate has had any effect in France? | :07:38. | :07:44. | |
That was extraordinary. Each debate is different. I think that there are | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
people were put off by the hostility that the two of them showed each | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
other. It was a nominal, it was 18 million people watching. -- | :07:54. | :08:00. | |
phenomenal. It is up to the politicians, but people should have | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
that option. These things are established in America and the are | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
established in France. We have got used to them, but they have not | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
really been established in the same way here. Do you think that will | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
continue will get a stage soon whether just has to be one of these | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
debates? I am afraid we have no rules, regulations, there is no | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
obligation on the politicians to do them. I think broadcasters will | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
always want to do them and sometimes in Scotland you will get everyone | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
turning up, but of course, you cannot blame the politicians for | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
making political decisions. Theresa May does not want to take any kind | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
of risk. You can't force her to take part. Thank you very much indeed for | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
that. No... Now it's time to take a look | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
back and what's coming This week I'm joined | :08:46. | :08:47. | |
by Kathleen Nutt, journalist with National and the political | :08:48. | :08:55. | |
editor of the Daily TV debates, Kathleen Nutt, what do | :08:56. | :09:12. | |
you make them? I think they are a very important part of the election | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
campaign. Add a element of excitement and drama to a campaign | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
and pull people in who may be our not interested in politics, but by | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
then watching the debates, they will learn about the personality, the | :09:27. | :09:38. | |
policies, and then that will make volley may prompt and vote and | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
increase turnout. Theresa May does not see it like that. She prefers to | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
engage with voters in a much more controlled and safe environment. And | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
also, there are only three words you need to know, strong, stable, | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
Government. What is in it for her by mixing that up? I would say, if you | :09:57. | :10:04. | |
are a strong leader, you should be out there debating with your | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
opponents on TV. What do you think? Cyanide she's not going to take the | :10:10. | :10:11. | |
risk. The Beatles being as they are, there is no need. I think there is a | :10:12. | :10:20. | |
risk there. -- with the polls being as they are. Nicholas Turgeon's in | :10:21. | :10:28. | |
the 2015 leaders debate did her a lot of good here. -- Nicola | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
Sturgeon. Except the dynamic of that election. It was that SNP and Labour | :10:34. | :10:41. | |
are going to gang up. Local election results, Labour it was awful, but | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
John Curtis has been making the point this morning has indeed have | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
various representatives of the Labour Party that the polls said | :10:49. | :10:55. | |
they were about 17 points ahead, in England and Wales it was 11 point | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
times. Their argument is that this is terrible. We are not trying to | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
deny that, but it is not as bad... We are not in this territory where | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
Labour are going to be completely wiped out either in England or | :11:09. | :11:16. | |
Scotland. Real 's. They are partially benefiting in comparison | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
to 2012. It was very bad. The voting system helped them a little bit more | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
than in 2015 where they lost all MPs but one. This time, the nature of | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
the voting system meant they were always going to get the second | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
preferences. When we are looking to the general election, it looks like | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
in terms of real votes, they are not far behind we are Ed Miliband was. | :11:40. | :11:47. | |
Despite everyone think Jeremy Corbyn is the terrible leader. In Scotland, | :11:48. | :11:54. | |
I suspect that is true. But they are quite far behind we are Ed Miliband | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
was in England. What do you make of that, Kathleen Nutt? You can see we | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
are the biggest party, this is a great victory for us. I still think | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
the SNP won the Government elections. They will remain the | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
biggest party in local government in Scotland and in some ways, the local | :12:15. | :12:17. | |
government elections reflected the Scotland and in some ways, the local | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
result of the Holyrood elections last year. With Tories pushing | :12:22. | :12:28. | |
Labour into third place. I think the loss of the Tories will have helped | :12:29. | :12:35. | |
since the EU referendum last year and some of the 38% of auditors | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
reported for Brexit Wooler piled on behind the Tories. -- 32% of voters | :12:40. | :12:48. | |
who voted for Brexit will have piled in behind the Tories. I think it is | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
also a wake-up call for the SNP, they won it, but with 33% share of | :12:53. | :13:00. | |
the vote rather than... This has become a great mystery. As I | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
understand it was 33% of the SNP. It was 24 but the Conservatives and 24 | :13:07. | :13:16. | |
Labour. -- 20 four Labour. There are so many independent candidates that | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
distort it a bit. It is quickly that Nicola Sturgeon 's Coll for a second | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
independence referendum has motivated voters. A lot of those | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
voters have chosen the Tories further best outlet for their anger | :13:30. | :13:31. | |
at the prospect of another referendum. That changes the dynamic | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
on the last two elections. In the immediate aftermath of the | :13:38. | :13:39. | |
independence referendum, we had a general election and yes voters were | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
angry and came out in big numbers. It is the same in 2016. I'm not sure | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
it will be the same next month. Thank you both very much. | :13:50. | :13:50. | |
I'll be back at the same time next week. | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
We don't know what it is, but she definitely has... Something. | :13:55. | :14:07. |