16/07/2017 Sunday Politics Scotland


16/07/2017

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer are joined by Liam Fox and Rebecca Long-Bailey. Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards are on the political panel.


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Transcript


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:38.:00:40.

With Cabinet divisions over Brexit, spending and leadership spilling

:00:41.:00:44.

onto the front pages, we'll be talking to international

:00:45.:00:46.

trade secretary Liam Fox about Britain's future

:00:47.:00:48.

Jeremy Corbyn's been to Brussels to set out

:00:49.:00:56.

Labour's vision for Brexit - but with the party suffering its own

:00:57.:00:59.

divisions on Europe, are they being entirely clear

:01:00.:01:01.

And as Ukip searches for another leader, will taking an even more

:01:02.:01:05.

hard-line stance on Islam make the party relevant again,

:01:06.:01:07.

If Ukip goes down the route of being a party that is anti

:01:08.:01:16.

the religion of Islam, frankly it's finished.

:01:17.:01:24.

In London - once a year you can visit your local council

:01:25.:01:28.

The SNP call the Brexit Bill, "a naked power grab."

:01:29.:01:31.

I'll be asking the Scottish Government

:01:32.:01:33.

and the British Government if they're in a mood to compromise.

:01:34.:01:45.

Yes, all of that to come, and I'm joined for all of it

:01:46.:01:48.

by three journalists whose every word is as closely followed

:01:49.:01:50.

And much like the Liberal Democrat leadership contest, they've

:01:51.:01:53.

won their place on the panel because no-one else wanted the job.

:01:54.:01:58.

It's Steve Richards, Isabel Oakeshott and Tom Newton Dunn.

:01:59.:02:08.

First today, for a supposedly private gathering, the meeting

:02:09.:02:11.

of the Cabinet on Tuesday has generated rather a lot of headlines,

:02:12.:02:13.

most of them featuring Chancellor Philip Hammond.

:02:14.:02:15.

Yesterday there were disputed claims in the Sun over what he may or may

:02:16.:02:20.

not have said about women driving trains, and today the Sunday Times

:02:21.:02:23.

says colleagues picked him up for describing public sector workers

:02:24.:02:28.

as overpaid, although some dispute that version of events.

:02:29.:02:30.

Well, Mr Hammond was on the Andrew Marr Show this morning,

:02:31.:02:33.

and he took the unusual step of suggesting that the source

:02:34.:02:35.

of the stories may be people unhappy at his position over Brexit.

:02:36.:02:41.

If you want my opinion, some of the noise is generated by people

:02:42.:02:45.

who are not happy with the agenda that I have,

:02:46.:02:47.

tried to advance of ensuring that we achieve a Brexit

:02:48.:02:56.

which is focused on protecting our economy, protecting

:02:57.:03:00.

our jobs, and making sure we can have continued rising living

:03:01.:03:03.

So what do you make of that, Isabel? The Chancellor thinks he's being

:03:04.:03:16.

undermined by Cabinet colleagues who don't trust him on Brexit. That's

:03:17.:03:21.

quite remarkable to say that in public. I also think it's completely

:03:22.:03:25.

true. That's the least controversial true. That's the least controversial

:03:26.:03:32.

part of it! The briefing is his position on Brexit and also

:03:33.:03:35.

frustration on his position over public sector pay then it is over

:03:36.:03:41.

any kind of leadership manoeuvrings. We saw on the Andrew Marr Show that

:03:42.:03:46.

he was doubling down on the issue of public sector pay rises. He didn't

:03:47.:03:50.

categorically deny using the words of overpaid, in fact he reiterated

:03:51.:03:56.

the fact he sees them as whether they are overpaid or not so I

:03:57.:04:00.

believe he did use that phrase but clearly he's got the tone wrong and

:04:01.:04:03.

I don't think he's done himself any favours. He's a pretty wealthy man

:04:04.:04:11.

himself, multimillionaire. He must have some kind of political deafness

:04:12.:04:17.

if he thinks it's OK for someone in his position to say, in a number of

:04:18.:04:24.

cases, lowly paid public sector workers are overpaid? I think he is

:04:25.:04:28.

politically deaf, and not emotionally intelligent. He has a

:04:29.:04:35.

great head for figures but very poor at expressing himself. It was a

:04:36.:04:44.

crass remark over women train drivers. He may be in the right

:04:45.:04:58.

place on some arguments, he's just extremely poor at expressing and

:04:59.:05:01.

that's what gives his opponents the chance to rip his head off. He

:05:02.:05:05.

should have worked out by now that it is clear whatever... Because of

:05:06.:05:11.

the dim munition of Mrs May's authority that whatever you see in

:05:12.:05:15.

the Cabinet now is likely to become public in some shape or form. I

:05:16.:05:20.

think this is the profound lesson of the story, that Cabinet discussion

:05:21.:05:25.

is almost impossible now, and Hammond will go away this summer

:05:26.:05:30.

thinking I can't engage in a proper debate in Cabinet because they will

:05:31.:05:34.

leak it. It sounds as if they were having quite a grown-up conversation

:05:35.:05:39.

about public sector pay with a spending department ministers

:05:40.:05:42.

putting the case for breaking the cup and Hammond saying from the

:05:43.:05:46.

Treasury perspective this is what's happening. Which is what normally

:05:47.:05:52.

happens in Cabinet. He would hope so, not any more. He won't be able

:05:53.:05:56.

to speak his mind in Cabinet because he knows it will be leaked and that

:05:57.:06:00.

is another sign of fragility of this Government, when you cannot have a

:06:01.:06:03.

grown-up discussion about public sector pay even in Cabinet, and that

:06:04.:06:07.

means Cabinet discussion which is urgently needed on Brexit and the

:06:08.:06:12.

rest of it cannot happen in an open way because leaking is happening.

:06:13.:06:18.

Mrs May is not exactly top of the Pops with her own party at the

:06:19.:06:22.

moment but doesn't help her in the fact that her Chancellor is even

:06:23.:06:28.

less top of the Pops? The key thing is that backbenchers don't want a

:06:29.:06:32.

leadership contest at the moment. There are a number of Cabinet

:06:33.:06:36.

ministers or more senior figures who have been around longer who may feel

:06:37.:06:40.

this is their last chance of the leadership and they are urgently

:06:41.:06:44.

wanting it happen now. Backbenchers don't want it, I don't think it will

:06:45.:06:51.

happen. Will it happen? I don't think it will. There are egos

:06:52.:07:00.

clashing in the Cabinet and also many who just want things to stay

:07:01.:07:03.

the way they are, so they will. We will talk more about this leadership

:07:04.:07:06.

matter later in the programme, but let's move on.

:07:07.:07:07.

This week the government passed another Brexit milestone

:07:08.:07:09.

when in introduced the Repeal Bill to the Commons.

:07:10.:07:11.

It will incorporate all EU law into the UK's domestic

:07:12.:07:13.

And although a vote on the Bill isn't due until the autumn,

:07:14.:07:17.

the government still has plenty on its plate when it

:07:18.:07:20.

Brexit secretary David Davis and the EU's negotiator

:07:21.:07:23.

Michel Barnier will sit down for another helping

:07:24.:07:25.

of Brexit negotiations in Brussels this week.

:07:26.:07:27.

Progress now needs to be made on some big questions.

:07:28.:07:30.

They include: the rights of EU citizens living here,

:07:31.:07:32.

How to maintain an open border between Northern Ireland

:07:33.:07:39.

And the size of the financial settlement or so-called divorce bill

:07:40.:07:44.

Previous estimates have included a figure of

:07:45.:07:51.

The British government has put no figure on it, simply saying it

:07:52.:07:57.

This week, Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said the EU

:07:58.:08:03.

could "go whistle" if it was expecting an extortionate fee

:08:04.:08:06.

Brussels wants this set of negotiations focusing

:08:07.:08:18.

on the principles of separation to be done by the end of the year.

:08:19.:08:22.

They can then turn to the main event, the future trading

:08:23.:08:24.

relationship between the UK and the EU.

:08:25.:08:26.

While the UK remains a member of the EU customs union, it cannot

:08:27.:08:29.

But it can hold advanced discussions with other countries.

:08:30.:08:33.

This week, Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull said his country

:08:34.:08:36.

was very keen for a deal as quickly as possible.

:08:37.:08:41.

And at the G20 summit, Donald Trump said he wanted to sign a very

:08:42.:08:44.

powerful UK-US trade deal very quickly.

:08:45.:08:50.

But as trade deals normally take years to negotiate,

:08:51.:08:52.

it is unclear when the first ones will be ready for post-Brexit

:08:53.:08:55.

So there will be plenty for both sides to digest,

:08:56.:09:00.

as negotiations continue over the summer.

:09:01.:09:09.

I'm joined by the International Trade

:09:10.:09:10.

Your brief is to agree new free trade deals but you cannot sign any

:09:11.:09:22.

until Brexit is done, can you even begin proper negotiations this side

:09:23.:09:28.

of Brexit or is that illegal too? We cannot negotiate and conclude a

:09:29.:09:32.

trade agreement but we can scope them out. We can get our preparatory

:09:33.:09:38.

work done. We have got ten working groups established across the world

:09:39.:09:42.

with countries from Korea to the United States to Australia. I know

:09:43.:09:47.

scoping the out is fine, you can talk about trade but you cannot

:09:48.:09:52.

begin formal trade negotiations until after Brexit. No, but we have

:09:53.:09:56.

trade working agreements. Free trade agreements are not the only thing

:09:57.:10:02.

that are in the mix as it were, they are what people think about but we

:10:03.:10:07.

also have mutual recognition agreements where we can reduce some

:10:08.:10:10.

of the barriers to trade, the technical barriers, in that process.

:10:11.:10:16.

We have a number of other things going on. We have got to get our

:10:17.:10:20.

trading schedules in Switzerland and Geneva and the World Trade

:10:21.:10:26.

Organisation organised. We then have 40 EU free trade agreements and we

:10:27.:10:29.

have to get them ready because if we were not to negotiate those and be

:10:30.:10:34.

ready on the first day of Brexit, there would be huge market

:10:35.:10:38.

disruption. Although you can clearly do a lot of technical work and you

:10:39.:10:45.

can talk till the cows come home, there will be no free trade deals on

:10:46.:10:51.

the shelf ready to sign come March 2019 when we are leaving the EU,

:10:52.:10:56.

that's correct isn't it? Technically there will be new ones... There will

:10:57.:11:04.

be no free trade deals ready to say right, we are out, here is a deal I

:11:05.:11:09.

have baked earlier. Not right away because we are not permitted to do

:11:10.:11:13.

that as part of our membership of the European Union and one of the

:11:14.:11:17.

things I want to get is greater freedom to be able to negotiate on

:11:18.:11:21.

behalf of the UK. That's not possible when you are inside the

:11:22.:11:26.

customs union. There's much talk of a transition after 2019. You told

:11:27.:11:32.

Bloomberg you didn't mind a few months, the Chancellor this morning

:11:33.:11:37.

said it would be a couple of years. What is it? The key thing is why

:11:38.:11:41.

would you have a transitional arrangements, how long would it be

:11:42.:11:45.

and what would the conditions be. For me first we have to leave the

:11:46.:11:50.

European Union in March 2019 so there can be no case of extending EU

:11:51.:11:54.

membership. At that point as a third country we can have a transition

:11:55.:12:01.

agreement which keeps as little disruption as possible but it has to

:12:02.:12:04.

have an end date. You said a few months, the Chancellor said a few

:12:05.:12:10.

years, why the difference? As the Chancellor said, it is more a

:12:11.:12:13.

technical argument, because for example how do we get new border

:12:14.:12:19.

equipment in place, how do we get the arrangements for immigration put

:12:20.:12:24.

in place, but for me, you know, I've waited a long time and campaigned

:12:25.:12:28.

long time to leave the European Union. As long as we leave in March

:12:29.:12:34.

2019 I'm happy, as long as we have a time-limited transitional period to

:12:35.:12:38.

make it work for business. The Chancellor doesn't deny the

:12:39.:12:44.

transition could take up four years. The Brexit Secretary David Davis

:12:45.:12:47.

says it could be a maximum of three years, you are talking months.

:12:48.:12:52.

Shouldn't you sort this out around the Cabinet table instead of all

:12:53.:12:58.

three of you sending mixed messages? We are dependent on for example what

:12:59.:13:03.

HMRC Tal us, how investment is going. It's also a question of

:13:04.:13:07.

negotiating with our European partners. We know what's involved,

:13:08.:13:11.

why are you sending out these mixed messages? I don't have a problem

:13:12.:13:17.

with the transition period as long as it is time-limited. It is not

:13:18.:13:22.

just the time, it is the conditions. I want in the transitional period to

:13:23.:13:27.

be able to negotiate agreements at that point. We cannot have a putting

:13:28.:13:32.

off over the freedom to negotiate trade agreements. At the moment is

:13:33.:13:36.

it clear you would be able to sign any free trade deals during a

:13:37.:13:42.

transition period? No, that's to be negotiated. So if Mr Hammond or Mr

:13:43.:13:50.

Davies is right, up to three or four years, it could be 2021 before you

:13:51.:13:57.

get to sign a free trade deal. We don't now how long any would take to

:13:58.:14:00.

negotiate. They don't happen overnight. Would you even be able to

:14:01.:14:07.

negotiate during a transition period? I would hope so, that is one

:14:08.:14:12.

of the conditions we might set. It is certainly something I would want

:14:13.:14:15.

to see because otherwise it makes it much more difficult to take

:14:16.:14:20.

advantage of the opportunities that Brexit itself would produce. Your

:14:21.:14:24.

ink will run dry before you get to sign one of these agreements. We

:14:25.:14:27.

have a huge amount to do and it's not just at the free trade agreement

:14:28.:14:35.

level. We have for example what we get at the World Trade Organisation

:14:36.:14:39.

because the real game for the UK is to get a global liberalisation in

:14:40.:14:45.

the services sector -- the real gain. And I want to come onto that

:14:46.:14:51.

in a minute but before do, are you group of the Cabinet ministers that

:14:52.:14:55.

seems to regularly be briefing against Philip Hammond? No, I

:14:56.:15:00.

deplore leaks from the Cabinet, I think my colleagues should be quiet,

:15:01.:15:10.

stick to their duties, and I expect discipline to be effective. The only

:15:11.:15:15.

people smiling that this will be people in Berlin and Paris. Why are

:15:16.:15:23.

people doing it? The need to have less prosecco. They don't trust

:15:24.:15:28.

Philip Hammond, do they? I don't think that is true. I read in the

:15:29.:15:33.

press we have very different views, in fact our views are very similar

:15:34.:15:38.

on things like transition. I don't know where it is coming from but I

:15:39.:15:39.

think it should stop. But it is happening? It is happening

:15:40.:15:50.

and I think it undermines the position of the government. We do

:15:51.:15:54.

not need an interim leader or an alternative leader. We have a very

:15:55.:15:58.

good competent leader in Theresa May. But he thinks it is being done

:15:59.:16:04.

by fellow Brexiteers? I do not know who is doing it and they should

:16:05.:16:09.

stop. Let's come back to the tariff free trade. There is much talk about

:16:10.:16:15.

that. The Chancellor says much of our trade with the world is in

:16:16.:16:20.

services and free trade deals won't make any particular difference. Do

:16:21.:16:24.

you agree with him? They can make a difference. It has been estimated

:16:25.:16:28.

with the OECD that free trade deals with the United States could add ?42

:16:29.:16:33.

billion to our bilateral trade by 2030. There is a game to be made. In

:16:34.:16:41.

an economy like the UK which is 80% services, what we would benefit from

:16:42.:16:45.

is a range of global liberalisation. One example is data. We have an

:16:46.:16:50.

economy where we talk about freedom of movement of goods and services,

:16:51.:16:54.

but you also have to have the freedom of movement of data. One

:16:55.:16:58.

thing I would like the UK to lead on is to look to a global agreement on

:16:59.:17:05.

that. But the talks have come to an end. There is no great global

:17:06.:17:11.

movement. That is not true. We have just had a multilateral agreement,

:17:12.:17:16.

the trade facilitation was signed this year which seeks to diminish

:17:17.:17:19.

friction at customs around the world and will add 70 billion to the

:17:20.:17:25.

economy. But it leaves plenty of nontariff barriers in place. The

:17:26.:17:29.

moment you start to talk about these complicated rules and regulations

:17:30.:17:33.

that hinder services, it does not make free trade deals impossible, it

:17:34.:17:39.

makes them much more on placated and prolonged to do. Correct? You need

:17:40.:17:44.

to look at what is happening in the global economy. According to the

:17:45.:17:50.

OECD, in 2012, the G7 and G20 countries were operating about 300

:17:51.:17:56.

nontariff barriers. By the end of 2015, they were operating nearly

:17:57.:18:00.

three times that number. The silting up of growth and global trade is

:18:01.:18:04.

being done by the global economy. We need to be looking at how we can

:18:05.:18:08.

remove some of those barriers, because otherwise our prosperity

:18:09.:18:12.

becomes limited. Is it still your view that no deal would be better

:18:13.:18:19.

than a bad deal? Anyone who goes into that negotiation without that

:18:20.:18:21.

than a bad deal? Anyone who goes is foolish. We will not accept any

:18:22.:18:26.

deal they will give us. That is the problem David Cameron had before the

:18:27.:18:30.

referendum. I think our partners believed we would accept a bad deal

:18:31.:18:34.

rather than none. But Philip Hammond has given the game away. He said no

:18:35.:18:41.

deal would be a very, very bad outcome. The Europeans know that we

:18:42.:18:45.

have realised no deal would be a very bad outcome. Is he right? I

:18:46.:18:50.

think you can argue on what the outcome would be. It is very

:18:51.:18:56.

important as a negotiating tool, and the Prime Minister is 100% right.

:18:57.:18:59.

Those we are negotiating with, need to believe that we would walk away

:19:00.:19:03.

rather than accept a bad deal. But if you're going to walk away you did

:19:04.:19:07.

not say the consequences would be very, very bad. You do not agree

:19:08.:19:23.

with the key is what is our negotiating position? You simply do

:19:24.:19:28.

not hand it away. So he is wrong? He says very, very bad. We have to

:19:29.:19:32.

accept we have a right to walk away and those we are negotiating with

:19:33.:19:35.

have to understand that. No businessman would go into a deal and

:19:36.:19:39.

say whatever the outcome, we will accept it. And no business would go

:19:40.:19:44.

into a major negotiation with six different voices but your government

:19:45.:19:49.

is. David Davis speaks for the government not the Sunday

:19:50.:19:56.

newspapers. Not Philip Hammond. Philip Hammond was very clear this

:19:57.:19:59.

morning on the issue of transition. We are leaving the single the --

:20:00.:20:07.

market, we are leaving the customs union. Let me just quote to some

:20:08.:20:12.

other issues. It would be good to get some clarity. Is there a

:20:13.:20:18.

contingency plan for no deal? Yes, government departments are all

:20:19.:20:22.

working for their contingency plans for what would happen if we got to

:20:23.:20:26.

the end of negotiation with no deal. Why did the Foreign Secretary say

:20:27.:20:32.

there was no plan for no deal. There are contingency plans across

:20:33.:20:36.

Whitehall. Is he wrong or out of the loop? As dead no. There are

:20:37.:20:42.

contingency plans and my department and other departments have

:20:43.:20:46.

specifically been tasked... He said it this week. Well, that is not

:20:47.:20:51.

correct. We would be foolish not to have such contingency plans. I

:20:52.:20:56.

understand the argument, you need to bring the Foreign Secretary in. He

:20:57.:21:00.

is only the Foreign Secretary that you would need to bring him in, I

:21:01.:21:06.

would have thought. You want is full deal with the EU as possible. Would

:21:07.:21:12.

you be prepared to pay for that kind of open access? It depends what you

:21:13.:21:21.

mean by pay. We have to start with where we are with the European Union

:21:22.:21:26.

at the moment. We already have a tariff free arrangement. I know what

:21:27.:21:32.

we already have. The only reason why we would not continue with that is

:21:33.:21:36.

if the politicians on the other side of the channel wanted to put

:21:37.:21:42.

politics before economics. What they said they want an annual fee? If

:21:43.:21:48.

they are talking about Britain continuing to pay for those

:21:49.:21:51.

international arrangements... I am not talking about that and I think

:21:52.:21:57.

you know I am not. If we get a full access trade deal, that they say you

:21:58.:22:00.

have to pay an annual fee for this full access, should we pay it? I

:22:01.:22:06.

would not want to make a public position while our negotiations are

:22:07.:22:10.

coming on but I think you would find it difficult to square with WTO law.

:22:11.:22:15.

Has there ever been a free trade deal where you pay the other side

:22:16.:22:21.

for access? Not that I am aware of. Nor me. It would be unprecedented.

:22:22.:22:26.

Are you ruling it out? I am not going to say anything. I see say we

:22:27.:22:30.

should not have a number of different cabinet voices ahead of

:22:31.:22:31.

our negotiations so I will not do that. We will have a

:22:32.:22:56.

negotiation. We will try and get as free deal as possible. Let me tell

:22:57.:22:59.

you why it is important. I know why it is important. I have another

:23:00.:23:01.

question. You said the EU has trade deals with a number of other

:23:02.:23:04.

countries at the moment of which we are part of, South Korea and Canada

:23:05.:23:07.

are two examples. Will they continue to trade with us on the existing

:23:08.:23:10.

basis, or will we have to do new deals or change these deals after

:23:11.:23:12.

Brexit? We are negotiating with his third countries so we have something

:23:13.:23:17.

so that deals are translated into UK law so there is no disruption to

:23:18.:23:22.

trade. It is not clear. It is break clear. The Canada deal has not yet

:23:23.:23:28.

been ratified by the European Union. So we do not know if we can carry on

:23:29.:23:32.

trading with those countries which the EU has a free trade deal with on

:23:33.:23:38.

the same basis. We have not spoken to a single country and we have

:23:39.:23:45.

working groups with Switzerland and career which make up 82% by value.

:23:46.:23:50.

Not a single one of those has indicated they did not want to carry

:23:51.:23:55.

out this transitional adoption. In the case of Canada, in the case of

:23:56.:23:59.

Singapore, where that agreement has not yet been reached by the EU, we

:24:00.:24:04.

will have to think then about a Plan B and how we go into a bilateral

:24:05.:24:11.

agreement. The EU now regards as may as a lame duck leader. It is true in

:24:12.:24:17.

Brussels, Berlin and Paris -- the EU now regards Mrs May as a lame duck

:24:18.:24:22.

leader. There is a hung parliament. Labour will not save your bacon on

:24:23.:24:27.

Brexit. They want a quick election and they will vote to bring that

:24:28.:24:34.

about. This election result has severely undermined Britain's

:24:35.:24:40.

negotiating position. If you are looking at European governments,

:24:41.:24:43.

they are looking at dealing with minority governments all the time.

:24:44.:24:47.

They are dealing with coalitions formal and informal. The key is we

:24:48.:24:51.

have something stronger than that. We have the will of the British

:24:52.:24:55.

people behind us clearly expressed in the referendum that we are going

:24:56.:24:59.

to leave the European Union, whatever Tony Blair or anyone else

:25:00.:25:03.

says. We will leave in March 20 19. Now the job of the government is to

:25:04.:25:07.

get the best deal and that is best done by my colleagues getting on

:25:08.:25:11.

with their departmental work, not involving themselves in things they

:25:12.:25:15.

do not need to be involved in, giving our backbenchers the

:25:16.:25:18.

reassurance that we have a united Cabinet. Liam Fox, thank you.

:25:19.:25:23.

Jeremy Corbyn went to Brussels this week to meet with the EU's

:25:24.:25:26.

chief Brexit negotiator, Michael Barnier.

:25:27.:25:27.

We're told Mr Corbyn wanted to set out Labour's

:25:28.:25:29.

But on some of the big questions - like Britain's relationship

:25:30.:25:33.

with the single market and the customs union -

:25:34.:25:35.

Here's Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell speaking earlier.

:25:36.:25:38.

I believe we have to try and maintain the benefits

:25:39.:25:41.

of the customs union, and that's one of the issues

:25:42.:25:43.

Does it mean staying inside or leaving?

:25:44.:25:47.

Keep all the options open, keep all the options...

:25:48.:25:49.

Under Labour we could stay inside the customs union?

:25:50.:25:51.

We are concentrating on the objectives rather

:25:52.:25:54.

than the structures and that seems to have a resonance

:25:55.:25:57.

I'm joined now by the Shadow Business Secretary

:25:58.:26:00.

Rebecca Long-Bailey, she's in our Salford studio.

:26:01.:26:04.

Good morning to you. Good morning. If there is a snap general election

:26:05.:26:11.

it could well be Labour negotiating Brexit, so let's try and get some

:26:12.:26:15.

answers to some fundamental questions. Is Labour in favour of

:26:16.:26:19.

Britain remaining a member of the single market? What we have said it

:26:20.:26:23.

want to retain the benefits of the single market and the customs union.

:26:24.:26:29.

We have to be flexible in our approach, we appreciate that. The

:26:30.:26:32.

end goal is maintaining the current benefits we have because we are

:26:33.:26:33.

standing on the edge of a cliff, quite frankly, on

:26:34.:26:55.

that matter. But you would concentrate on remaining a member of

:26:56.:26:57.

the single market? The machinery we use to maintain those benefits is

:26:58.:27:00.

open to negotiation. We have got to respect the result of the referendum

:27:01.:27:03.

and the will of the people, in terms of having greater control over our

:27:04.:27:05.

laws and the border. If we could negotiate staying in the single

:27:06.:27:07.

market would be fantastic but whether it is likely have to be

:27:08.:27:10.

seen. We are looking at all the options on the table and getting

:27:11.:27:13.

access to the single market is one of those. Everybody wants access, I

:27:14.:27:19.

am talking about membership. It is still not clear whether you would

:27:20.:27:23.

negotiate to remain as a member of the single market, with all the

:27:24.:27:26.

consequences of free movement and the European Court that would follow

:27:27.:27:32.

from that. What is your position? We want to retain the current benefits

:27:33.:27:36.

we have is a member of the single market, but we appreciate there will

:27:37.:27:40.

be free movement and we will lose control over our laws. That was one

:27:41.:27:44.

of the key positions that were set out in the referendum and people

:27:45.:27:49.

were extremely concerned about that. That has to be negotiated. If we

:27:50.:27:53.

could negotiate membership of the single market while dealing with the

:27:54.:27:58.

other issues, that would be great. I think that would be unlikely. We

:27:59.:28:03.

have to look at a more flexible approach while not being a member.

:28:04.:28:09.

Is Labour in favour of remaining a member of the customs union? Again,

:28:10.:28:15.

the position is similar. We want to retain the benefits we have in the

:28:16.:28:21.

customs union. We want to have our cake and eat it, as do most parties

:28:22.:28:24.

in Westminster. So you and Boris Johnson or on the same wavelength?

:28:25.:28:29.

We need to be flexible, not cut our nose off despite our face. I am

:28:30.:28:36.

asking for your position. Would you be clear to be prepared to sacrifice

:28:37.:28:44.

not being able to do free trade deals, as the price for remaining in

:28:45.:28:50.

the customs union? We have to be extremely flexible. We should be

:28:51.:28:54.

able to carry out and negotiate our free trade deals. You cannot do that

:28:55.:29:01.

in the customs union? So are you in or out? That is why it is a point

:29:02.:29:05.

for negotiation, Andrew. We want to retain the benefits of the customs

:29:06.:29:09.

union will negotiating trade deals as we see fit. That will form part

:29:10.:29:15.

of the negotiations themselves. We cannot cut our nose despite our face

:29:16.:29:19.

without coming out of the customs union without any transitional

:29:20.:29:22.

arrangements whatsoever and send businesses over the cliff. Since you

:29:23.:29:27.

do want to keep your cake and eat it. You want to stay in the single

:29:28.:29:30.

market but not have the obligations that go with it, stay the single

:29:31.:29:40.

union but not do -- stay in the single market but do your own trade

:29:41.:29:45.

deals. The opposition is untenable. That is the point of the

:29:46.:29:52.

negotiations... To be untenable? Not to be untenable. We have

:29:53.:29:57.

negotiations. The machinery we have whether it is through outside

:29:58.:30:01.

agreements or whether it is about a negotiated form of an amended

:30:02.:30:04.

settlement, that is a moot point frankly. We need to make sure we

:30:05.:30:10.

have the same benefits. John McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor,

:30:11.:30:15.

says people would interpret remaining in the single market is

:30:16.:30:18.

not respecting the referendum but you say it is an option to keep

:30:19.:30:22.

open, who is right? I think he is right in what he said. It is

:30:23.:30:26.

automatically assumed that once you leave the EU you leave the single

:30:27.:30:29.

market and that is generally the case. I would be surprised that we

:30:30.:30:34.

would be able to negotiate any of the concessions that we want to make

:30:35.:30:38.

as remaining part of the single market as a member. I am not saying

:30:39.:30:41.

it is completely off the table because stranger things have

:30:42.:30:46.

happened, but what we need to focus on is less on the machinery and more

:30:47.:30:51.

on the outcome. We need to make sure we retain the benefits and we

:30:52.:30:53.

negotiate some form of agreement to deal with that.

:30:54.:30:59.

But why would you keep an option open that would not respect the

:31:00.:31:06.

result of the referendum? People assume that once you leave the EU

:31:07.:31:11.

you leave the single market. That could be negotiated, but it's

:31:12.:31:15.

extremely unlikely. I wouldn't rule anything out at this stage because

:31:16.:31:19.

stranger things have happened and this process so far has been

:31:20.:31:24.

extremely chaotic. But you would have to decide your negotiating

:31:25.:31:28.

position. Saying we don't rule anything out is not a negotiating

:31:29.:31:36.

position. We are clear on our negotiating position, we want to

:31:37.:31:39.

retain the benefits we currently have as part of the customs union

:31:40.:31:45.

and the single market, whether that is inside or outside is a moot

:31:46.:31:50.

point. Rex it means Brexit, we are clear on that. -- Brexit means

:31:51.:31:59.

Brexit. How can it, if you want to stay inside the single market and

:32:00.:32:03.

Customs union, and you said access would entail accepting some element

:32:04.:32:08.

of free movement. That's what you said but your manifesto was

:32:09.:32:13.

categorical - free movement would end after Brexit, which is currently

:32:14.:32:18.

Labour policy? The manifesto was clear free movement would end. The

:32:19.:32:23.

point I was making at the time is there are some areas which are

:32:24.:32:28.

extremely complex, for example the free movement of scientists. There

:32:29.:32:36.

is an extreme state of concern regarding that, so the Government

:32:37.:32:39.

has to look at things like that. There might have to be concession is

:32:40.:32:44.

made in certain areas like that in order to get an associative

:32:45.:32:48.

membership for example but the clear position overall is that free

:32:49.:32:52.

movement would end and we are in favour of reasonable and managed

:32:53.:32:56.

migration. We are also not in favour of the current undercutting of wages

:32:57.:33:00.

for example through the Swedish denigration and we want to see that

:33:01.:33:04.

end immediately because we don't think it is right company cancels

:33:05.:33:08.

labour overseas and undercut British employees. Let me finish on another

:33:09.:33:15.

topic. John McDonnell again, the Shadow Chancellor, said this morning

:33:16.:33:19.

the victims of Grenfell Tower were victims of social murder. What is

:33:20.:33:27.

social murder? I haven't spoken to John about that but what happened in

:33:28.:33:33.

Grenfell was absolutely horrific. But were they victims of social

:33:34.:33:39.

murder? I haven't spoken to John to understand the term but in my

:33:40.:33:45.

constituency we have a large number of tower blocks that have the same

:33:46.:33:50.

cladding on and people are living in fear. Following the Lakanal House

:33:51.:33:54.

fire, the coroner made recommendations the Government

:33:55.:33:59.

should be installing sprinklers in all housing over 30 metres high and

:34:00.:34:05.

they haven't done that. I call on than to do that immediately whilst

:34:06.:34:10.

also making sure the funding is available to carry out necessary

:34:11.:34:15.

remedial works. One other issue has come light... My question is

:34:16.:34:25.

important... When John McDonnell says that the people in Grenfell

:34:26.:34:30.

Tower were murdered, murdered by political decisions, is he right? I

:34:31.:34:35.

go back to the point I made earlier. I haven't discussed it with John...

:34:36.:34:44.

Two weeks ago. The Government should have acted on recommendations. Were

:34:45.:34:53.

they murdered? They should have acted on recommendations to retrofit

:34:54.:34:58.

sprinklers and they didn't. There was incompetence is no question,

:34:59.:35:03.

dereliction of duty, some terrible decisions made that resulted in that

:35:04.:35:08.

appalling event that we saw but does that amount to murder? It is a

:35:09.:35:14.

simple question. You could look at it case of manslaughter but the fact

:35:15.:35:19.

is people lost their lives through a failure to conduct adequately a duty

:35:20.:35:23.

of care. People would assume that is murder if you like, if it was taken

:35:24.:35:28.

through the courts, and could be classified as corporate

:35:29.:35:34.

manslaughter. It's not murder? We are going round in circles here. The

:35:35.:35:39.

point is the Government should have acted on recommendations to retrofit

:35:40.:35:43.

sprinklers years ago and should have looked at amending building

:35:44.:35:46.

regulations instead of kicking the issue into the long grass time and

:35:47.:35:51.

time again. People where I live are living in extreme fear, and we want

:35:52.:35:56.

the Government to take action immediately. Rebecca Long-Bailey

:35:57.:36:00.

from Salford, thank you for joining us.

:36:01.:36:02.

You may not have noticed but Ukip - the party that once promised

:36:03.:36:06.

and arguably delivered a political earthquake - is having

:36:07.:36:08.

The last leader, Paul Nuttall, stood down after the party saw its vote

:36:09.:36:12.

is one anti-Islam candidate threatening to split what's

:36:13.:36:17.

Forget the warm prosecco, if there is any plotting going on in Ukip

:36:18.:36:35.

about who should be in charge, it would be going on over a pint. And

:36:36.:36:38.

there is plotting. understands Ukip's ruling body could

:36:39.:36:45.

ban one of the candidates from standing, and that is not going to

:36:46.:36:50.

go down terribly well. Anne Marie Waters, a former Labour activist,

:36:51.:36:55.

wants to be the next leader. She believes Ukip needs to talk more

:36:56.:37:00.

about Islam, a religion she has called evil. She says there is

:37:01.:37:04.

growing support for her views including among the hundreds of new

:37:05.:37:08.

members who have joined Ukip in recent weeks. Are you anti-Islam? I

:37:09.:37:14.

don't like the religion, no, and a lot of people get confused on Islam

:37:15.:37:21.

and all Muslims. The religion, the Scriptures and how it is practised

:37:22.:37:25.

in most of the world I find quite frankly abhorrent. There are

:37:26.:37:28.

millions of people in this country who think as I do. They don't

:37:29.:37:36.

want... And the real extreme right could rise if people are not allowed

:37:37.:37:41.

to talk about this. Nigel Farage has already said he doesn't want to be

:37:42.:37:45.

the leader again, but he still has a clear view of what Ukip 's macro

:37:46.:37:51.

future should and should not hold. Ukip goes down the route of being a

:37:52.:37:57.

party that is anti the religion of Islam, frankly it's finished. I

:37:58.:38:03.

don't think there is any public appetite for that but it is timing

:38:04.:38:07.

and the party would be finished. If there are some within Ukip who say

:38:08.:38:11.

the party had already moved to the right at the last election with its

:38:12.:38:12.

integration agenda. Banning

:38:13.:38:20.

the burka and physically checking children for female

:38:21.:38:21.

genital mutilation. If we don't really do something

:38:22.:38:22.

about FGM now, we never will. Anne Marie Waters wants to go

:38:23.:38:25.

further but also suspects The party chairman says

:38:26.:38:27.

there will be due process according to Ukip's constitution,

:38:28.:38:33.

including the screening But like the old boss,

:38:34.:38:53.

he doesn't think Ukip should become What we're going through now

:38:54.:38:55.

is a process where people can I'm talking about the process

:38:56.:38:58.

we have, which I think is robust enough to protect the party,

:38:59.:39:02.

its history, and protect its future. We have always been

:39:03.:39:05.

about being for something, we are not against something,

:39:06.:39:07.

and hopefully that will come through in this leadership election

:39:08.:39:10.

so I'm excited about it. I'm not focusing on one

:39:11.:39:12.

particular candidate. But it has got senior

:39:13.:39:14.

party figures worried. Several MEPs have told me

:39:15.:39:16.

the majority of their colleagues in Brussels would walk away

:39:17.:39:18.

if Anne Marie Waters Another Ukip senior source

:39:19.:39:20.

said there would be mass The deadline for leadership

:39:21.:39:23.

nominations is the 28th of July. So far, around seven people have

:39:24.:39:27.

said they intend to stand. Of course the bigger the field,

:39:28.:39:29.

the fewer the votes required to win. One senior MEP told me it would be

:39:30.:39:32.

the most rancorous contest the party had ever had,

:39:33.:39:35.

amongst the least stellar cast. The man who led Ukip at its most

:39:36.:39:38.

successful says direction is one thing but the party must also become

:39:39.:39:41.

more professional on their current

:39:42.:39:43.

trajectory, then they will on their current

:39:44.:39:51.

trajectory, then they will And as I say, if Ukip withers

:39:52.:39:54.

and Brexit is not delivered, something else will replace it

:39:55.:39:58.

so I'm saying to what is still my party, unless you change radically,

:39:59.:40:01.

get your act together, Whatever the direction

:40:02.:40:03.

the new leader takes Ukip, there are already plenty who think

:40:04.:40:13.

the party is over. We say goodbye to viewers

:40:14.:40:24.

in Scotland who leave us now Good morning and welcome

:40:25.:40:40.

to Sunday Politics Scotland. A power grab or a

:40:41.:40:42.

bonanza for Scotland? Holyrood and Westminster

:40:43.:40:48.

clash over Brexit. I'll be asking senior figures

:40:49.:40:49.

from both Governments whether there's any

:40:50.:40:51.

room for compromise. And as MSPS set off for a little

:40:52.:40:55.

summer rest and relaxation, we'll be looking ahead to some

:40:56.:40:58.

of the challenges for the SNP To Nicola Sturgeon it's "a naked

:40:59.:41:01.

power grab," while David Mundell says it'll turn out to be "a power

:41:02.:41:09.

bonanza" for Scotland. It'll be interesting to see over

:41:10.:41:12.

the next few weeks and months whether the Great Repeal Bill

:41:13.:41:15.

will continue to polarise views. Currently the First Minister,

:41:16.:41:18.

who took the unusual step of issuing a joint statement of condemnation

:41:19.:41:20.

with the Welsh First Minister Carwyn Jones,

:41:21.:41:22.

says she couldn't recommend the Bill so setting up a potentially

:41:23.:41:25.

explosive clash between the UK Well, joining me now is

:41:26.:41:27.

the Scottish Government's Minister for Brexit Negotiations,

:41:28.:41:30.

Mike Russell. First of all, you have written to

:41:31.:41:40.

MSPs asking for their support for the Scottish Government to be, I

:41:41.:41:47.

quote, at the table in the UK's Brexit negotiating strategy. What

:41:48.:41:51.

does that mean? It means taking part in the discussions that are ongoing

:41:52.:41:56.

month by month with the EU when matters of devolved confidence are

:41:57.:41:59.

being considered and matters that would affect Scotland. Such as

:42:00.:42:04.

freedom of movement. You are asking for a seat at the table in Brussels?

:42:05.:42:09.

The formulation that we and the Welsh have used is exactly the same,

:42:10.:42:12.

the seat at the table when devolved matters are being discussed and in

:42:13.:42:16.

the room when wider issues are being discussed. It's important that

:42:17.:42:20.

happens, because it is not happening and we are going into again and

:42:21.:42:25.

again substantial difficulties because the UK Government don't

:42:26.:42:29.

understand much of regulation or the devolved administrations. A lot of

:42:30.:42:32.

MSPs might say that the kind of agree with you that we need to know

:42:33.:42:37.

what is going to be devolved and what isn't, but we don't agree that

:42:38.:42:41.

the Scottish Government should be in the actual Brexit negotiations.

:42:42.:42:45.

Think there has been a majority in Parliament for that consistency. But

:42:46.:42:54.

you want everyone. That is the $64,000 question. Either

:42:55.:42:56.

Conservatives in Scotland going to stand up for Scotland? Milk like the

:42:57.:43:02.

Conservatives could see perfectly reasonably we could see the argument

:43:03.:43:05.

why the devolution of powers from Europe needs to be discussed and

:43:06.:43:09.

sorted out, but sorry, we're not going to let the Scottish Government

:43:10.:43:13.

PND Brexit negotiations. You already have to be a Scottish National at

:43:14.:43:19.

before you would think that. The Welsh are at Labour and they believe

:43:20.:43:23.

they should be part of it. Much academic opinion believes that there

:43:24.:43:26.

has to be in due process the involvement of devolved

:43:27.:43:30.

administrations. We cannot sit on the sidelines. The joint ministerial

:43:31.:43:36.

committee says that it should have oversight of these negotiations. In

:43:37.:43:40.

actual fact, it hasn't met since their breed. There have been reports

:43:41.:43:45.

that there are bilateral discussions going on between yourself and the

:43:46.:43:50.

Government in London. Is that true? DS, I've spoken to David Davis twice

:43:51.:43:57.

and met with him. Of course we are trying to have discussions. It is

:43:58.:44:02.

very hard to do when things like the Great Repeal Bill appear without any

:44:03.:44:05.

consultation and which are not only the wrong things, but also things

:44:06.:44:09.

that are not workable. Just to get the facts clear on this? Where you

:44:10.:44:15.

consulted before the European withdrawal Bill was discussed.

:44:16.:44:21.

Recites two weeks ago. It has been in existence since debris. The

:44:22.:44:26.

normal thing for a Bill of this nature would be that officials would

:44:27.:44:30.

work together over a long period of time to get it right, because it

:44:31.:44:34.

affects Scotland so much. We size century the final draft and

:44:35.:44:39.

virtually nothing changed between that and the publication. Although

:44:40.:44:43.

we asked them to take out clause 11, which is the clause that will cause

:44:44.:44:46.

the most difficulty and the Welsh asked them that too. They refused to

:44:47.:44:54.

change it. There has also been talk that there may be bilateral

:44:55.:44:56.

discussions between Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon. The door is always

:44:57.:45:03.

open for discussion. I'm asking you what the British have and have said

:45:04.:45:07.

the about what they want to do. There has been no indication that

:45:08.:45:11.

the Prime Minister 's will Tok. The Welsh administration asked for talks

:45:12.:45:17.

between the Prime Minister and the Welsh primary. That has not been

:45:18.:45:20.

arranged. The suggestion was that the British Government wanted to

:45:21.:45:25.

have bilateral negotiations between Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon

:45:26.:45:29.

because the problems in Northern Ireland were making it impossible.

:45:30.:45:37.

That is not true. This is an excuse. It's quite possible for the GMC to

:45:38.:45:40.

meet the diverse and Scottish governments. To make this point

:45:41.:45:47.

firmly, you cannot abolish the GMC unilaterally which is what the UK

:45:48.:45:50.

Government wants to do. There has to be a discussion between the parties

:45:51.:45:55.

if it's to be changed in any way. We have formally asked for a meeting

:45:56.:45:59.

with the GMC and the European Committee and is not been provided.

:46:00.:46:06.

Theorising that they will have these bilateral negotiations. The always

:46:07.:46:11.

welcome, but they are not a substitute for a formal negotiation.

:46:12.:46:17.

Have been formally approach to? -- have a formally approached you. No,

:46:18.:46:23.

it would have to be a meeting of the GMC to see we are going to move

:46:24.:46:27.

forward. Nicola Sturgeon said that as matters stand with this Bill, the

:46:28.:46:31.

Scottish Parliament, she would not recommend that the past a

:46:32.:46:36.

legislative consent motion. What would have to and freed to say you

:46:37.:46:41.

would do that. Would have to be recognition that in all areas of

:46:42.:46:45.

devolved competence, the powers that presently exist in Europe will come

:46:46.:46:50.

back to the devolved administrations of Scotland, Wales and Northern

:46:51.:46:53.

Ireland. Then there can be a discussion about frameworks moving

:46:54.:46:58.

forward. Without that, not only is it unacceptable and goes against

:46:59.:47:02.

evolution, it is unworkable. You're going to enter into a complete mess

:47:03.:47:06.

were up until now, this isn't an arcane point, up until now there is

:47:07.:47:11.

a list of things that were devolved and reserved. The reserved ones are

:47:12.:47:18.

listed, now there will be areas which are neither are bold and

:47:19.:47:22.

decisions will be made by UK ministers without consulting the

:47:23.:47:25.

Scottish Parliament and Government on matters which are devolved. That

:47:26.:47:28.

is unacceptable and would lead to chaos. Using you would not support

:47:29.:47:34.

the legislative consent motion unless there is a deal done on this?

:47:35.:47:37.

Or are using that you want perhaps even on the face of the Bill a

:47:38.:47:40.

statement that this will be done? There has to be recognition that we

:47:41.:47:46.

are the people to whom these powers are devolved. The Welsh Government.

:47:47.:47:52.

Then we can discuss what common framework could take place. This is

:47:53.:47:56.

crucially important. Let me give you a specific example in agriculture.

:47:57.:48:06.

If we have a UK framework decided on by the Government without any

:48:07.:48:15.

opportunity for us to make decisions within there, then we'll have a

:48:16.:48:18.

framework that doesn't work for us. That's the whole purpose of

:48:19.:48:21.

devolution. That's why return to get this right. It is generally thought

:48:22.:48:26.

that even if you don't pass a legislative consent motion on the

:48:27.:48:32.

withdrawal Bill, it doesn't have much effect on the Supreme Court

:48:33.:48:38.

decision in the Jena Miller case in force that. Other than shedding a

:48:39.:48:41.

lot, is anything you can do about this? I think we are in a

:48:42.:48:46.

constitutional crisis and that becomes worse of this takes place.

:48:47.:48:50.

It's a very interesting piece in the Sunday papers by a political

:48:51.:48:54.

academic about this comparing it to previous constitutional crisis is.

:48:55.:48:57.

This would be a constitutional crisis, because the Scottish

:48:58.:49:02.

moment... What does that mean? We have a situation where Scotland has

:49:03.:49:07.

said and Scotland has said one thing and the UK Parliament has overruled

:49:08.:49:11.

it. Becoming that leads to good and effective governance and it doesn't

:49:12.:49:16.

lead to the type of relationship... There is nothing much you can do

:49:17.:49:20.

about it apart from complaint. Think that you want to avoid that in every

:49:21.:49:26.

possible way. You cannot wander into this crisis. It is the wrong thing

:49:27.:49:29.

to do. There will be outcomes that will be very serious. There will be

:49:30.:49:35.

areas that are inoperable. There are areas in Scottish civil law that if

:49:36.:49:39.

they perceive this, will be inoperable. In civil law, it is

:49:40.:49:43.

entirely devolved. The decisions are made in Scotland. There are areas

:49:44.:49:46.

within that were decisions will be made in England about things which

:49:47.:49:50.

they have no knowledge or information of. They had not been

:49:51.:49:55.

responsible for it for the last 20 years. We will have circumstances in

:49:56.:49:58.

which decisions are being made without any knowledge of the

:49:59.:50:02.

circumstances or without even consulting the appropriate Scottish

:50:03.:50:07.

love. Are you saying that decisions about England will be applicable...

:50:08.:50:14.

No, there is an administration of civil law which is undertaken with

:50:15.:50:19.

others. Decisions on aspects of serving papers for example

:50:20.:50:22.

internationally could be made and the Bill allows them to be made by

:50:23.:50:26.

UK ministers without consulting anybody in Scotland at all.

:50:27.:50:32.

David say, we are just trying to get something through which means we can

:50:33.:50:40.

bring something in European law into UK law. This is the wrong way to

:50:41.:50:49.

handle it. Both ourselves and the Welsh and part of the previous

:50:50.:50:53.

Northern Irish government have said so from the beginning. You have

:50:54.:50:59.

devolution, that is what happened during the referendum, bring the

:51:00.:51:03.

power is back. Then you say, how can we make this work? We have said, we

:51:04.:51:08.

will sit down and help you make this work. But we cannot do it this way.

:51:09.:51:13.

The bill is badly drafted. We have told them this. We have told them

:51:14.:51:20.

this repeatedly over a long period of time and unfortunately the

:51:21.:51:25.

negotiating style, this is the problem I think, very evident with

:51:26.:51:29.

27, there are negotiating style is not to listen, but to keep putting

:51:30.:51:34.

stuff out that will not work. Do you take it in good faith that they will

:51:35.:51:39.

negotiate more powers to Scotland or are you concerned they will use some

:51:40.:51:44.

of these Henry VIII powers to decide themselves? I cannot take it in good

:51:45.:51:50.

faith. I cannot take the promises being made by David Mundell and

:51:51.:51:53.

others because they have been made since January. We have not had an

:51:54.:51:58.

example of these additional powers we will get. We have not had a

:51:59.:52:03.

single example of we the will not be involved in these issues. There is

:52:04.:52:11.

nothing in this bill, not a word in the smell, that justifies the

:52:12.:52:13.

arguments of UK ministers. It does the opposite. Are you concerned that

:52:14.:52:18.

they can use these Henry VIII powers to decide what is devolved and what

:52:19.:52:24.

isn't? Yes, and that is what the intent to do. Thank you very much

:52:25.:52:25.

indeed. I'm joined now by the Undersecretary

:52:26.:52:27.

of State for Scotland, and Wales, the MEP,

:52:28.:52:30.

and soon to be Lord, Dr Ian Duncan - one

:52:31.:52:32.

man with many jobs. Ian Duncan, can we clarify what your

:52:33.:52:41.

current Kim -- position is. Are you still an MVP? No. You are now a

:52:42.:52:53.

minister. You are not in the House of Lords? I have not been introduced

:52:54.:52:57.

in the House of Lords yet, but I am a member of the House of Lords. Now

:52:58.:53:02.

we have got that cleared up, you heard Mike Russell there, they are

:53:03.:53:08.

saying they cannot possibly pass the legislative consent motion approving

:53:09.:53:12.

the so-called European withdrawal bill because nothing has been laid

:53:13.:53:16.

out about which mirrors will go to Scotland and which powers will be

:53:17.:53:22.

retained by London. He has got a point? No, what we have to do on D1

:53:23.:53:27.

is make sure we can function as a country. We have to make sure that

:53:28.:53:32.

all the rules and regulations are able to enter into UK law. UK,

:53:33.:53:40.

Scottish, English and Welsh law. Thereafter we will determine how we

:53:41.:53:45.

will make sure they will work within each of the devolved nations. What

:53:46.:53:49.

the Scottish Government and Welsh government are saying there is no

:53:50.:53:52.

reason you could not have sat down with them and discussed which powers

:53:53.:53:57.

would be, even if you were to do this momentarily if you like because

:53:58.:54:01.

of the reasons you have explained, you should have sat down and

:54:02.:54:04.

discussed with them which wires would go to Scotland and Wales and

:54:05.:54:09.

that nothing has been done. -- which powers. The key thing to remember

:54:10.:54:21.

here is we need to establish what is going to be a common framework. When

:54:22.:54:27.

the devolved administrations were set up, across a whole range of

:54:28.:54:33.

areas, agriculture and fisheries, there was a common framework. We

:54:34.:54:38.

need to establish what the common framework will look like when the

:54:39.:54:43.

eggs at the EU. There have been problems with this joint ministerial

:54:44.:54:47.

committee because of the situation in Northern Ireland. There have been

:54:48.:54:51.

these reports which we were talking about with Mike Russell, the British

:54:52.:54:56.

government was bilateral talks with the Scottish Government, perhaps

:54:57.:55:01.

talks between Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon, is that true? There were

:55:02.:55:06.

troubles with the joint ministerial committees, that is going back

:55:07.:55:09.

nearly ten years. There will be meetings of this formulation, we

:55:10.:55:16.

need both. Including between Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon? We are

:55:17.:55:20.

looking at a functional level. I do not think there will be talks

:55:21.:55:25.

between the devolved nations and the Prime Minister. But to make things

:55:26.:55:30.

work, we need to build a different approach. There will have to be

:55:31.:55:36.

bilateral. There will be talks particular to Wales, Scotland and

:55:37.:55:39.

Northern Ireland. And there will have to be other talks were weak

:55:40.:55:48.

discussed common issues. Are you surprised about the way the Scottish

:55:49.:55:52.

Government am approaching this patchwork no, I am not surprised. I

:55:53.:55:59.

spent years working in fisheries. When we leave the EU, we need to

:56:00.:56:06.

find a common framework. If we were to take powers to the Scottish

:56:07.:56:12.

Government, with its approach to fisheries, we would create an

:56:13.:56:18.

unlevel playing field for Scottish fishermen. We need to find a common

:56:19.:56:23.

approach that works with a common framework. When you talk about those

:56:24.:56:28.

bilateral discussions, as a about which powers should be devolved to

:56:29.:56:31.

Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland patchwork the Scottish

:56:32.:56:36.

Government's document which suggested either that the UK stay in

:56:37.:56:40.

the single market where there should be some special deal whereby

:56:41.:56:43.

Scotland can stay in the single market, that is being ruled out,

:56:44.:56:50.

has? When I was an MEP, I sat down with a secretariat who said it is

:56:51.:56:55.

not working and it is not possible. To spend energy on that

:56:56.:56:59.

impossibility would be a futile gesture. We need to find a man and

:57:00.:57:06.

means -- manner and means which is going to work for all the devolved

:57:07.:57:14.

governments. The clock is ticking. What Nicola Sturgeon are saying, she

:57:15.:57:18.

will not recommend that the Scottish parliament recommend or pass a

:57:19.:57:25.

legislative consent motion. You heard Mike Russell say that that

:57:26.:57:28.

would cause a constitutional crisis. With that much work it would cause

:57:29.:57:37.

fear and concern of every aspect of the industrial sector, farmers,

:57:38.:57:40.

fishermen, producers of energy. That is where the real concern will like.

:57:41.:57:44.

She will have to explain what she will do instead of that. It is not

:57:45.:57:49.

good enough to bolster. You need to be to say to people who will be

:57:50.:57:52.

affected after the date of breadth that that there is certainty, we

:57:53.:57:57.

will move forward and how we will do that. -- day of Brexit. Do you

:57:58.:58:07.

reject the idea there would be a constitutional crisis? The term is

:58:08.:58:11.

overused. But right now we would have significant difficulties in the

:58:12.:58:15.

Bali -- body politic in Scotland if there was no certainty of what laws

:58:16.:58:20.

would apply to Scotland after a particular Brexit foot. I think that

:58:21.:58:24.

would be bad. I think at that point there would be a series of

:58:25.:58:29.

negotiations. What does that mean? If you are saying, unless a

:58:30.:58:35.

legislative consent motion is passed, the laws that are currently

:58:36.:58:39.

part of European law and which will be passed on to the UK, with their

:58:40.:58:45.

not be more in Scotland? The lawyers north and south of the border have

:58:46.:58:50.

agreed that we need a legislative consent motion. They are putting in

:58:51.:58:58.

jeopardy all the people who depend upon... I ask you again the question

:58:59.:59:03.

I asked you a moment ago, what does this mean? This gets technical and

:59:04.:59:09.

people are having difficulty in understanding precisely what this

:59:10.:59:12.

means. If there is no legislative consent motion and if at the time of

:59:13.:59:19.

Brexit water at the, why do you say there will be great uncertainty,

:59:20.:59:24.

what precisely will happen? Some rules were right now are dependent

:59:25.:59:30.

upon the European Union. Many of those have implications whether they

:59:31.:59:33.

be across farming and fishing or small businesses. If those rules

:59:34.:59:38.

themselves are not enshrined into British law, then the framework for

:59:39.:59:42.

those to move forward lost. We need to have a legal framework that

:59:43.:59:48.

allows transactions to continue. Do you think there will be problems for

:59:49.:59:52.

Scottish businesses to do contracts in a way that would not apply in

:59:53.:59:56.

England because Westminster would have adopted this? They would be

:59:57.:00:04.

problems because these would need to be done in a common base. At that

:00:05.:00:10.

point the implication from Scotland is there. My concern is that while

:00:11.:00:16.

we enter into... The dialogue needs to be had. We need to be discussing

:00:17.:00:21.

to get the salt and find a way through. On day one we need to make

:00:22.:00:25.

sure that there is certain to across Scotland. You have heard Mike

:00:26.:00:30.

Russell say that he is concerned, in fact he believes that the British

:00:31.:00:35.

government will use these Henry VIII powers to determine what is devolved

:00:36.:00:39.

and what is not. Is that the case? No. Why not? Where there are any

:00:40.:00:47.

elements that are within a common framework they will need to have

:00:48.:00:51.

primary legislation is. They will have to go through Parliament. We

:00:52.:00:55.

are talking about a transition period in which we determined at

:00:56.:00:58.

that point how we will collectively want to ensure a common framework.

:00:59.:01:04.

Let's end on this. You are guaranteeing to make Russell that

:01:05.:01:09.

his worries are unfounded and there is no way that the special measures,

:01:10.:01:13.

these Henry VIII powers will be used to determine what is and what is not

:01:14.:01:18.

within their powers of the Scottish Government? These powers will be

:01:19.:01:21.

determined to find out what will be part of the common framework of the

:01:22.:01:26.

EU, that will be done with an agreement with all the elements.

:01:27.:01:32.

They will be parts that will go back into Scotland, England and Wales

:01:33.:01:36.

because they do not form part of a component of a common framework.

:01:37.:01:37.

Thank you very much indeed. Last week in a report on the Corbyn

:01:38.:01:40.

factor in Scotland, we said that the MSP and Campaign

:01:41.:01:45.

for Socialism Convenor, Neil Finlay, had stood against Kezia Dugdale

:01:46.:01:47.

for the Scottish Labour leadership. Mr Finlay had in fact stood

:01:48.:01:50.

during the 2014 leadership campaign Now, it's the last Sunday Politics

:01:51.:01:53.

before our summer break. And for the politicians,

:01:54.:01:59.

the holidays aren't just a respite from being interviewed by the likes

:02:00.:02:02.

of me, they also allow ample time not least the fallout

:02:03.:02:05.

from the general election. For the SNP, which lost 21

:02:06.:02:10.

seats at Westminster, there's much debate about how to win

:02:11.:02:13.

back support and what it In a moment, I'll be asking

:02:14.:02:16.

Alex Salmond's former Chief But first, Graham Stewart's been

:02:17.:02:21.

measuring the political temperature. So the holidays and upon as giving

:02:22.:02:37.

politicians plenty of time to reflect on the election and ponder

:02:38.:02:46.

the next moves. In the midst of your wave, you have not seen the last of

:02:47.:02:51.

my bonnet signed me. Alex Almond will host is on show at the

:02:52.:03:01.

Edinburgh Festival fringe. -- Alex Almond. Devastated enough to shed a

:03:02.:03:10.

tear? Yes, a little tear. At that moment? At that moment, yeah. Here

:03:11.:03:17.

years, Jeremy Corbyn! You have brought the spirit of music, you

:03:18.:03:22.

have brought the spirit of love, you have brought the spirit of ideas and

:03:23.:03:25.

you have brought the spirit of a great messages. So to politicians

:03:26.:03:36.

who might have a future career on the stage and one who might well be

:03:37.:03:40.

exiting the stage before long. But the SNP, the summer will be spent on

:03:41.:03:44.

reflecting how they managed to lose 21 seats in the general election.

:03:45.:03:49.

The party may look back for some inspiration in 2005 when they went

:03:50.:03:52.

from being the second biggest Scottish party to third behind the

:03:53.:03:58.

Lib Dems. In a plush hotel on the banks of the spray, that summer, a

:03:59.:04:02.

new strategy was hatched. Involving a creed -- clear message and a

:04:03.:04:08.

desire to win. And according to one who was there, it was a winning

:04:09.:04:13.

strategy. Back in 2005, the SNP were anti-everything and for nothing.

:04:14.:04:20.

Look back on it and I wince as some of the things that we said and be

:04:21.:04:25.

voted at that point. But right now we have a real positive vote to go

:04:26.:04:33.

on. They have been defensive on the record. They should be singing on

:04:34.:04:37.

the rooftops of what we are doing and where we want to go. You're not

:04:38.:04:41.

voting for the status quo, you're voting for a progression. I think

:04:42.:04:45.

that is what Jeremy Corbyn was all about. For one figure on the left of

:04:46.:04:50.

the independence movement, a bit of jazz is stale passion from the SNP

:04:51.:04:54.

would be welcome. I am proud to say I voted for Jeremy Corbyn. I voted

:04:55.:05:00.

for him and his manifesto because it was a UK election for the UK

:05:01.:05:04.

Government. But for voting for a Jeremy Corbyn, I not undermining the

:05:05.:05:11.

independence cause? Absolutely not. There is a clear constitutional

:05:12.:05:14.

crisis in the UK that carbon does not have the answers to. I would

:05:15.:05:18.

like the SNP to be more radical. I would also like to see a plurality

:05:19.:05:23.

for independence where the SNP are not the sole voice for independence.

:05:24.:05:28.

But will shift to the left make it more difficult to win back voters

:05:29.:05:33.

from the Tories who claim some major scalps in the SNP's former

:05:34.:05:38.

heartlands. The deputy leader reckons the north-east voters a lost

:05:39.:05:50.

cause. If we are going to hold the majority of votes in Westminster and

:05:51.:05:56.

the majority of seats Holyrood, then we better have a much more radical

:05:57.:06:00.

policy than we have at the present time. A leading pollster urges

:06:01.:06:05.

caution though but urges a party not to be spooked by the much vaunted

:06:06.:06:11.

leader bouts. Scottish Labour put on about 1.5 points between the two

:06:12.:06:15.

elections. I do not think that means that the SNP should be moving to the

:06:16.:06:20.

left. What they need to be doing and need to understand is why the

:06:21.:06:25.

majority of its last fought actually stayed at home this time rather than

:06:26.:06:29.

voted for one of the two other parties. So that 70% of the lost SNP

:06:30.:06:36.

voters, the people who voted for the SNP in 2015 who did not vote for

:06:37.:06:41.

them in 2017, about 70% of that fought actually stayed at home. The

:06:42.:06:51.

focus now is on getting the best Brexit deal for Scotland. But as the

:06:52.:06:55.

party rethinks its strategy, the hopes and aspirations of

:06:56.:06:59.

independence supporters hang in the balance. I will now take the steps

:07:00.:07:07.

necessary to make sure that Scotland will have a choice. We will not seek

:07:08.:07:13.

to introduce the legislation for an independence referendum immediately.

:07:14.:07:17.

I said that I'm going to reflect carefully on the result and I'm

:07:18.:07:18.

going to take time to do that. Well, to discuss Graham's film

:07:19.:07:27.

and other matters I'm joined now by political commentator

:07:28.:07:29.

and formerly Alex Salmond's chief of staff, Geoff Aberdein

:07:30.:07:31.

and the political consultant and former Labour MP for

:07:32.:07:33.

West Dumbartonshire, Gemma Doyle. Reboot SNP, what would you do about

:07:34.:07:49.

the independence referendum? It seems to have been kicked into the

:07:50.:07:53.

long grass, but the critics would say they haven't formally cancelled

:07:54.:07:58.

the idea. We have to be more positive about their own record. The

:07:59.:08:02.

difficulty we saw in the general election with the Labour and the

:08:03.:08:05.

Conservatives have had some traction since then, they have had successful

:08:06.:08:10.

results, the need to be more positive, be bolder and on the front

:08:11.:08:13.

foot. They need to read events rather than react to them. That will

:08:14.:08:17.

be what we see from Nicola Sturgeon to wear the end of the summer. In

:08:18.:08:21.

terms of independence, that is intrinsically linked to Brexit. It

:08:22.:08:28.

is hard Brexit, Nicola Sturgeon can return to the electorate and...

:08:29.:08:32.

Using she should keep options open? Water back from my perspective, the

:08:33.:08:39.

SNP exists to achieve independence. I don't mean independence, I mean

:08:40.:08:42.

the second one, there was a perception that that lost them both

:08:43.:08:46.

in the general election and of course the Conservatives will keep

:08:47.:08:49.

banging on about this. They will keep saying, you have not taken it

:08:50.:08:55.

off the table. One option would be to say realistically this isn't

:08:56.:08:58.

going to happen before the next Scottish election, so let's shelve

:08:59.:09:03.

it and talk about it then. I think the way the body has began to

:09:04.:09:06.

describe it as an insurance policy is quite right and they should keep

:09:07.:09:10.

their induced Brexit goes in the wrong direction and it is a hard

:09:11.:09:14.

Brexit. Having that option to save their is a life jacket. Before that,

:09:15.:09:20.

what is most important for the party is that they promote and defend

:09:21.:09:23.

their record. That has been lacking for some months now. Despite

:09:24.:09:28.

interesting that Kat Boyd said in actual machine voted for Jeremy

:09:29.:09:33.

Corbyn. There is a perception that a lot of young people, a lot of people

:09:34.:09:39.

who might be considered on the left politics voted even if they

:09:40.:09:42.

supported independence actually ended up boarding for Jeremy Corbyn

:09:43.:09:45.

and there is the way in for Labour there, but it didn't have very much

:09:46.:09:48.

to do with Scottish Labour leadership. Idling the way back for

:09:49.:09:54.

Labour is anything to do with independence. At the Labour Party

:09:55.:09:56.

were successful this year because they did a very clear line on

:09:57.:10:03.

independence and against any... That's not what I'm suggesting. What

:10:04.:10:07.

I'm suggesting is that a lot of people who might have voted for

:10:08.:10:10.

independence were attracted by Jeremy Corbyn baulk version of

:10:11.:10:16.

Labour politics not Kezia Dugdale. Idling that is right. I think the

:10:17.:10:22.

vote at the election this year was no much about her being very clear

:10:23.:10:26.

about what the Scottish Labour Party were standing for. Kat Boyd is in a

:10:27.:10:30.

different party from one weeks to do next. She is not the best of

:10:31.:10:36.

political... But what she is saying... There is a perception that

:10:37.:10:39.

a lot of young people in Scotland did vote free Jeremy Corbyn and a

:10:40.:10:43.

lot of young people might have voted yes in the independence referendum.

:10:44.:10:48.

That is an issue for the SNP, because the danger is that it is

:10:49.:10:57.

kind of two years ago was news. Independence is from 2014, forget

:10:58.:11:00.

about that, there is something much more exciting. If the election had

:11:01.:11:07.

been even a week later... I think the young aspirational vote might

:11:08.:11:10.

move to the Labour Party. I think that's absolutely right. For the

:11:11.:11:16.

Labour Party, what interesting is that the relationship between UK

:11:17.:11:19.

Labour and Scottish Labour. Jeremy Corbyn was deemed as a liability

:11:20.:11:22.

going into the election and then was deemed as an asset towards the end

:11:23.:11:25.

of the election. They have a decision to make about whether or

:11:26.:11:30.

not the tap into that aspirational vote and wholeheartedly back him.

:11:31.:11:34.

The Labour Party don't have a coherent position quite yet on

:11:35.:11:37.

Brexit. We need to see where they are on that before they adopt the

:11:38.:11:42.

approach of Jeremy Corbyn. Lisa Mike Russell and Ian Duncan on opposite

:11:43.:11:49.

sides. -- we start. Mike Russell is worried that what is devolved will

:11:50.:11:56.

be accepted unilaterally by the UK Government. Ian Duncan says that

:11:57.:11:59.

will not happen. I did Scottish Government grandstanding in the view

:12:00.:12:04.

of this? Or I'd be making a perfectly reasonable point? Think

:12:05.:12:08.

they are right to say that they want to be more involved in the

:12:09.:12:13.

negotiations. But at the table in Brussels? Or just at the

:12:14.:12:17.

negotiations? I think there are ways of doing that, bringing in civil

:12:18.:12:20.

servants from the juries administrations in the UK. Dumbing

:12:21.:12:23.

that's impossible. I think it would be sensible. The UK Government to

:12:24.:12:30.

need as much support across the parties on this and if they do

:12:31.:12:34.

involve more parties and the Scottish rent and the Welsh

:12:35.:12:36.

tournament, there is more chance of it being a success. Should the SMB

:12:37.:12:43.

blade this typically? Rather than immediately saying they wouldn't

:12:44.:12:48.

pass the consent motion? -- shoot at the SMP have played this

:12:49.:12:52.

differently. If they had been more cautious and said this is what we

:12:53.:12:56.

want, we are not getting it would call for immediate meetings and

:12:57.:12:59.

negotiations. Would people have said that as more reasonable? Going by

:13:00.:13:06.

the side of this process, this wasn't perhaps more obvious.

:13:07.:13:13.

Normally summer is a quiet time for politics, but it will not be this

:13:14.:13:17.

year. Let's see how the SNP do with this. They might be able to get

:13:18.:13:23.

positive results in terms of people's reactions to their

:13:24.:13:27.

proposals when and if, we will wait and see, the Conservative Government

:13:28.:13:31.

say they will not be the sparrows. That is a big F. -- powers. By the

:13:32.:13:41.

British into finger trying to do to get Brexit to work? Simek pedalled

:13:42.:13:45.

think they have been deliberately excluded, I think the UK Government

:13:46.:13:49.

just have to get this right. We have to leave this here. This week, we

:13:50.:13:50.

are off for the summer. We'll be back in September.

:13:51.:13:52.

Until then, goodbye. Yeah. And it wasn't,

:13:53.:14:06.

it was done by hand

:14:07.:14:09.

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer are joined by international trade secretary Liam Fox and shadow business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey for a look at Ukip's future direction. Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards are on the political panel.