09/07/2017 Sunday Politics Scotland


Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer are joined by Labour MPs Caroline Flint and Emma Dent Coad, as well as the Conservatives' Owen Paterson MP.

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.


Donald Trump says he wants to do a "powerful" trade deal


Theresa May says other countries are ready to talk too.


But could the transitional deal with the EU that some are pushing


for scupper the Prime Minister's plans?


Having defied expectation in last month's general election,


are Jeremy Corbyn and his allies about to purge the party


The deadliest fire in London since the Second World War has


devastated a community and shocked Britain, but will the political


storm that's blown up in its aftermath help uncover


And on Sunday Politics Scotland: Far from going into recession


But is there still an underlying problem?


I'll be talking to the Economy Secretary Keith Brown.


If we are darking today we apoll jierks it could be a power cut or


the BBC is trying to save money with its fuel bill! Assuming you can see


them... And with me - as always -


for TV's second most keenly watched on-screen relationships


after Love Island, the Sunday Politics panel -


Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer They'll be tweeting


throughout the programme. So - Donald Trump says a trade


deal with UK could be Theresa May says that


other world leaders, including those of China,


India and Japan, are also keen to do President and PM were speaking at


the G20 summit of the world's major President and PM were speaking at


the G20 summit of the world's major But could the transitional


deal that some want, that would keep the UK in the EU's


single market and Customs Union for several years after exit,


put paid to those plans? Here's what the man likely to be


the next Lib Dem leader - Vince Cable - told the Marr show


earlier. I'm beginning to think that


Brexit may never happen, The problems are so enormous,


the divisions within the two major parties are so enormous,


I can see a scenario We're joined now from


Shropshire by the former Conservative Cabinet Minister


and leading Brexit Ogise, it could be a power cut or


the BBC is trying to save money with its fuel bill! Assuming you can see


them... Good morning to you, Vince Cable says that he thinks Brexit may


now not happen, what do you say to that? What is new? Vince Cable


always wanted to stay in the European Union, he is chucking


buckets of water round, we had a huge vote last year, we had an


enormous vote in the House of Commons, 494 votes to trigger


Article 50, we had an election campaign in which the two main


parties took 85% of the vote they back the speech and leaving the


customs union and the single market and the ECJ and Vince Cable's party


went down in votes as did the other parties that want to stay in the


European Union. So Vince is behind history, we are going to leave, we


are on target, Michael Gove triggered leaving the 1964 London


convention so we can take back control of the seas and bring back a


sane fishing policy and more important getting environmental


gained in our marine environment, so... You think we are still heading


for the exit but Mrs May called the election because she wanted a


mandate for her version of Brexit. She didn't get it. Surely you can't


just continue with business as usual? Well, we have been over the


election, we did not get the number of sees we wanted but on votes, we


got 13.7 million, that is more than the great Blair landslide. You had


an overall majority and you lost it. That is a fact. I said that. We know


that. So you didn't get the mandate. We got the vote! We got a lot votes


and so did the Labour Party. You know we are in a Parliamentary


system where what matters is the number of seats you get in the


Commons, you know enough about the British constitution to know a that


is what determines the mandate. Not the number of votes, we are not a


Presidential system. I am First Minister throughly wear


of that. 85% of the election voted for parties that wanted to leave. If


you take votes in the Commons last week on the Queen's Speech not a


single Conservative MP abstained or voted against and the Labour Party


unwisely, Chuka Umunna triggered and amendment wanting us to stay in the


customs union and got hammered. So, I am clear that we have to deliver


this, much the most important point in all this, is if we do not deliver


a proper Brexit which means leaving the single market, leaving the


customs union and the jurisdiction of the ECJ, there will be appalling


damage to the integrity of the whole establishment. Not just political,


you, the media, and the judicial establishment. Some would say that


damage has already been done in other area, let us look at the


detail. Under Article 50 Britain leaves the EU in 20 months which


means the deal will have to be done in 15 or 16 months to allow for


people to approve it in the various Parliaments and so son. Progress has


the been glacial. We have only just begun. Why should there not be a


transitional deal that keep some of the current arrangements in place to


mitigate this falling off a cliff? As Liam said in the Commons, Liam


who? Liam Fox, this should be one of the easiest ever deals to conclude,


because already, we have zero tariffs, already we have complete


conformty on standards and already, those who are negotiating with us


have an enormous surplus, the Germans sold an enormous number of


cars, so that is the basis on which, if you look at Nafta... We haven't


even started talking about free trade yet. That is not on the agenda


yet. Let me finish. If you look at Nafta, that took 14 months, we are


starting on a basis of mutual recognition of all our standard and


zero tariffs so yes, there will be an implementation period but it is


very very important politically this is concluded fast, as a huge


economic imperative as well, because it is uncertainty about this that


will damage future investment and job, the quicker we get on with it


and we know where we are going and we can reach out to the world, we


can take advantage of the fact stated on the European Commission


website that 9 a 5% of the world's growth is going to come from outside


European Union, which is what we are seeing, we have seen sales go from


61% to 43% and it is tumbling to 43%. We cannot take advantage of


these wonderful opportunities in the wider world... Why not? Why not?


Germany does. Because they can't conclude free trade deals. Germany


runs a balance of payment surplus, it finds it possible to trade with


the rest of the EU and with the rest of the world. It has a bigger


surplus than China, if Germany can do both why can't we? They can't.


They can't conclude deal, we Trump wants to do a deal with us. You saw


Theresa May sitting down with the economies of the future, India,


China, South Korea, these are all longing to do more business with us,


we can only do that once we are out of the customs union, that is vital


for the future of this country, that is where the future growth is. The


business in this country says we should stay in the single market and


the customs union, at least through a transition period. Does that count


for nothing, is Tory party now so antebusiness it ignores the wealth


creators? I think what you are saying is that the CBI which


represents very large organisations has made that statement, but talking


to business widely, and smaller private businesses which dominate


the economy, what is vital on this is to have a rapid implementation


period. That is what is important. And there has to be clarity of where


we are going, if we are in permanent limbo which will take a enormous


amount of negotiation and will take ratification by the 27 countries and


the European Parliament as well as our own, that will drag things out.


What we need to do is a clean Claire statement of reciprocal free trade


which should be really pretty easy to negotiate because we have that,


we have conformty of standard, we have an implementation period. That


needs to be done rapidly. Latest by the next election. OK, we shall see


how simple it turns out to be. Thank you for joining us here.


What do you make of this increasing talk of transition period in which


it is not clear, we remain full members of the single market, full


members of the customs union? Which came we cannot conclude very


quickly, in Mr Trump's word a free trade deal? This is where the battle


is now heading, between Brexiteer, levers, re-levers and the lot of it.


This will be really what the only thing we could achieve in the next


negotiations, what has changed since the general election which you were


touching on there, is of course Brussels in the year 2017 are no


longer negotiating with Theresa May, they are negotiating with the House


of Commons and the you know majority for a softer Brexit, so this will


begin, the transition deal will define the rest of deal, the rest of


the final relationship, so getting the transition on the right


trajectory is crucial, hence why you have Philip Hammond making a major


play to try and keep one foot in the EU, if not necessarily in the custom


union and the single market and everyone else says get out. These


are the opening skirmishes on what will certainly be the nettle that


will will be grasped round about some time between October and spring


next year. Are you worried that the election result, the fact that she


didn't get this mandate that she had looked for and she has ended up in a


weaker position than she was before the election, is going to make


Brexit more difficult, it is going to muddy the water, it means her


idea of Brexit is not necessarily the one that become Brexit? Yes I am


worried are about as a Brexiteer, the same remain yaks would have been


trying to scupper the will of the British people as expressed in June


2016. Now they might succeed. I don't think any will succeed. We


have to stop this nonsense and the media included, of this talk of soft


Brexit an transition period. We have a transition period once we are out


when we are leading to the next process, with have to be out of the


single market, and not under the European Court of Justice. All


within the two years, all by March... That happens automatically,


then we can agree for a two, three year max, three year period we will


have a position as we move to the new deal, but I don't think there


many Leave voters, most Remain voters accept that result, unlike


the people like the CBI who are fighting against it still, they will


accept anything more than that. I think Owen Paterson is right. We are


in a situation where we will face some serious disflus the


establishment, the political world, the Melissa Reidia if we don't obey


the will of the people. What do you make of the reports in the Sunday


papers, it was only ten days ago, two weeks' ago Mr Hammond was going


to be the caretaker leader, that is a story that didn't seem to last


48-hour, but what do you make of the remain MPs on both sides of the


House, plus peers, are going to try to derail this repeal act, that the


Government needs to push EU law on to the UK statute book. I I think


they will use it to at certain key points to attempt to defeat the


Government, not over the whole thing, this summer reminds me so


much of the summer of 92 who the Maastricht Treaty coming into a


fragile John Major Government, and people then were plotting, in the


opposite direction, Eurosceptics to try and stop that. He won with a


huge percentage of the vote. Tiny majority, 23, bigger than she would


have died for that. A shock victory. The The summer was full of talk and


plotting, some which came to fruition in the sessions after and


some will come into fruition from this autumn on ward where you will


see alliances across the Commons manned the Lords, there will be


moments of high Parliamentary drama, I think. Sounds like a long hot


autumn. An a long hot autumn, and winter.


Winter too? I thought it was all global warming. This will add to the


Now, Jeremy Corbyn may not have won the election,


but by confounding almost everyone's expectations he is unassailable


as Labour leader for the foreseeable future.


So what does that mean for his MPs, most of whom - just a year ago -


Labour's new chairman and key cupping Ally said last week the


party may be too broad church. He also seemed to endorse the idea of


deselecting labour MPs critical of the leadership by saying if you get


deselected there must be a reason. But he has since wrote back from his


deselected there must be a reason. comments in another interview. Chris


deselected there must be a reason. Williamson, the newly appointed


labour frontbencher said some of his colleagues in the Parliamentary


party think they have a God-given right to rule. He also said that if


MPs don't support the leadership's programme, local constituency


parties should find someone else who will. And in the seat of liveable


waiver treats this week, left wing supporters of Jeremy Corbyn won


several positions on the committee. One said she must get on board quite


quickly now, and also publicly apologise for not supporting Mr


Corbyn in the past. Some Labour MPs rushed to Luciano Berger's defends.


Elsewhere, a list of 49 Labour MPs was published, and they said these


usual suspects should join the Liberals. The list included


prominent former frontbencher is like Chris Leslie, Chuka Umunna and


tidying -- Heidi Alexander. And this is what the Shadow


Education Secretary and Jeremy Corbyn ally,


Angela Rayner, had to say earlier. Anyone that talks of deselecting


any of my colleagues, frankly they need to think


about actually, who are Who are making the problems


for our communities at the moment? Who have made those disastrous


policies that are hurting the people It doesn't help them if we're


fighting each other. We're joined now from


Sheffield by former Labour Cabinet Minister,


Caroline Flint. Welcome to the programme. Labour


frontbencher Chris Williamson has said, where Labour MPs don't support


the leadership's programme it's incumbent on local members to find


someone else who will. What do you make of that? I think it's very sad


that talk of deselection is the line people are taking. We had an


election where 262 Labour MPs, very different ones, have all won a


mandate from their electorate and our job is, as Angela Rayner said


this morning, is to focus on a government that is in disarray and


how we can learn from the general election to broaden our appeal but


also develop our policy is ready in time for the next election whenever


that is called so I think all talk of deselection is misplaced and


doesn't help Labour. But do you feel a purge of what is often referred to


as the moderates in your party is now inevitable? No, because we have


been here before in the 1980s when talk of deselection was suggested,


it didn't happen in the way people thought it would, and I do believe,


hearing how Ian Lee very, and I have worked with him in the 2010, 2015


government and I have worked with Chris Williamson, Ian has already


refined what he said, and what he's clearly was this deselection talk


and the way to go ahead on it is not the right way forward. We to focus


on looking outwards to understand that we have across the party


hard-working Labour MPs with maybe different views across the Labour


political spectrum, and I would have to say that Luciana is one of the


most hard-working MPs in Parliament and homework on mental health is


outstanding. That may be true, let's look at Luciana Berger's


constituency. One of the committee members on her committee says she


now has to get on board quite quickly. And even publicly apologise


for past disloyalty. The direction of travel is clear, isn't it? That


is one person on a committee in one constituency... Where there is a


majority for that point of view now. I don't think there is, and the


truth is... They took nine seat. Her constituency is all of the members


in that constituency and what I would say, and I don't know this


individual, look at the track record of Luciana and what she has done.


Jeremy, in the 20 years I have been an MP under both Tony Blair and


Gordon Brown, voted against the Labour whip on numerous occasions,


he has been very upfront and honest about this, do you know in those 20


years I never heard anybody say about Jeremy or anybody else who


didn't vote with the Labour whip that they should face deselection or


apologise. I think that represents the broad church of the Labour Party


and we should look at what brings us together rather than differences on


policy point of view and we should be looking outwards and dealing with


that and working on it. You have said that three times but it has not


happened and it may be that the people around Mr Corbyn, they think


moderates like you, your day is over. You lost the 2015 election


badly, you allowed Jeremy Corbyn to stand as leader, you failed to stop


him twice, you thought he would make a mess of the June election and he


didn't. Can you blame his supporters for wanting a career out of people


who took these positions? I think there are some people who supported


and still support Jeremy who feel that way but I don't believe they


represent the people who supported Jeremy, and I don't believe Jeremy


thinks this is in the best interests of the party. Only a few weeks ago


John McDonnell praised my work on tax transparency. Since my election


I have bumped into Jeremy and we have had a chat about what happened


in the election and Jeremy recognises that we were up against


an arrogant Tory party and has said to me he does understand this and


said to the broader Parliamentary Labour Party... If I could just


finish... What has he said about deselection? For example he said to


me that he recognised that we have won in numerous places in


outstanding circumstances but he's also said to me that he recognises


that we need to broaden our reach and understand why we were


working-class voters. That says to me that that is a leader who is up


for and open to looking at the reasons why we were successful and


the reasons we weren't and he wasn't closing down conversation on that. I


take him on his word on that. He has not said that publicly. What we need


from a leader is to challenge our party about where to go next and he


has said that, Diane Abbott has said at a conference I was at a few weeks


ago that we need now to look at our manifesto and look more clearly


issues around tax and spend policies because obviously clearly now we


have more time to look at those issues and also we may be facing a


very different election when the time comes. That's what I want from


the leadership team, talk about how we improve our message and reach,


and by doing that get away from what song, a minority I have to say, are


saying about deselection. Corbynistas like Paul Mason think


moderates like you were to blame for the defeat. He said moderates were


always attacking Mr Corbyn, that is quite popular view in the Jeremy


Corbyn wing. I think that is Paul Mason's view and he is fundamentally


wrong. When we look at the results of the last election, we can see a


continuing from 2015 where Labour is losing support among older voters


and what we see is in this election in 2017 Labour has... I think we are


at our highest point amongst the middle-class voters compared to


where we were in 1979 but the Tories are highest among working-class


voters since 1979 as well. Those working-class voters weren't voting


for a more left alternative to Labour and sadly they were voting


Tory and we have to address that because our party is this broad


church and representing working-class people is at the heart


of what the Labour Party is about and that's a discussion we need to


have. That is the depth of discussion we need to get into. That


would put's with a fighting chance of taking on a Tory party that is in


disarray. Caroline Flint, thank you for joining us.


This week it was announced that the Grenfell Tower inquiry


would hold its first public hearings in September, as it prepares


to begin to examine what caused the tragedy.


But some have warned that the situation now needs


to be de-politicised, or it will damage


In a moment we'll hear from the MP for Kensington and Chelsea


where the Grenfell Tower fire took place.


But first Emma Vardy looks at how political arguments have played


a significant part in the aftermath of this terrible event.


When you come here and you actually see it, your immediate thoughts


are about the people, not about the politics.


What happened up there is just so difficult to comprehend.


But in the days after this tragedy, there was such outrage


at governments and authorities, it became a political


storm that those in power struggled to respond to.


We want justice, we want justice, we want justice...


People vented their anger outside Kensington town Hall.


A visit to the Grenfell site by Theresa May saw her forced


At Prime Minister's Questions, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn linked


What the tragedy of Grenfell Tower has exposed is a disastrous


And speaking at Glastonbury, Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell


Those families, those individuals, 79 so far and there will be more,


were murdered by political decisions that were taken over recent decades.


I can't remember a major national tragedy that has been politicised


I think using terms like murder is completely reckless


The key thing is that we try to ascertain the facts


this tragedy occurred to ensure it can never be repeated.


And as soon as you introduce emotive phrases or emotive accusations


or emotive allegations of that nature, then the discourse


The whole debate around the tragedy becomes politicised and it makes it


Some argue the political language that was used was wrong and helped


to ramp up the vitriol in an unhelpful way, but


for others, it was entirely justified.


That's what an opposition party is for, it's to challenge


the Government and to ask the right questions and I think people


round here would say thank goodness, there's somebody in politics


Pilgrim Tucker had helped Grenfell Tower residents campaign


for building improvements in previous years, and returned


I've been to meetings before the fire and I've been


to meetings since the fire, attended by ordinary residents


with no involvement in politics and they are saying very political


things about land in London and property ownership in London,


Had we campaigned harder, would we have prevented this?


Fire safety campaigners say they were trying to draw attention


to certain issues long before what happened at Grenfell Tower,


and say it's no one political party but the whole system has failed.


It's easy to say, "You've got an inquiry, let's wait for that."


We already know two very clear things.


Had the people there been protected by sprinklers,


People don't die in homes protected by sprinklers.


The second thing is the outrage that the building regulations had


They should be done year in, year out.


Generally people in house fires die in ones, twos


or threes, which doesn't make a political statement.


So the political parties haven't really needed


They weren't prepared for 70 or more people to die at once


The public inquiry, which will address some of those issues,


has already faced calls for its newly appointed


And that was a view echoed by the Labour MP


You would call on him, would you, to stand down?


I don't think there will be any credibility and some people


are saying they won't cooperate with it so it's not going to work.


I will look into this matter to the very best of my ability...


I think the attacks on the chair have to cease, I think the attacks


It actually makes it harder to get to the facts and get


to the truth and that's the most important thing now.


Some said it was unavoidable that this tragedy became political,


but will the politics help get to the truth?


I'm joined now by the Labour MP for Kensington -


who we heard at the end of that film - Emma Dent Coad.


Now this judge, leading the Grenfell inquiry, have you met him? I haven't


met him, no. So what evidence do you have that he doesn't in your words


understand human beings? Well, I am reflecting what people are telling


me out there, that they as soon as his name was announced everybody


looked up his credentials, they found a particular case he had been


involved in, the very issue that people are most worried about, post


Grenfell is they will be moved out of the borough somewhere else. This


issue about social cleansing. It was insensitive to have chosen somebody


with that on his record. Whether he made that decision according to the


rules. It is one judgment in a long career, he may be able to defend


what he did. You have said he doesn't understand human beings but


you have told us you have never met him? It is nothing to do with


meeting him. It is the system where people have to be friends in order


to work together, judged by the evidence, judge by what people have


done that, judge by merit and whether or not you can be friendly.


What has he done wrong in his career? It is symbolic the issue he


made a decision about, it is symbolic for everybody. I am


reflecting the community who are been betrayed. You don't think in


your often view you don't take the view he doesn't understand human


beings. Personally I do. I do actually but I am reflecting what


people are saying, the people who elected me, who have been badly


betrayed by the authority, they are seeing it that way, they have been


betrayed and now they see you know, they worst fear is this will be used


top socially cleanse north Kensington. What is the evidence for


that? About social cleansing? No, this will be used to do so. Whether


or not there is ever, there is no trust in somebody who has been part


of that process. He has been chosen by the Lord Chief Justice, not as


the Prime Minister as some have said. He has a long ex perness of


commercial contracts and disaster, both of which will be vital. It is a


lot to do with overlapping commercial contract, he is a


specialist in that area, what bit doesn't make his qualified and and


doesn't he reflect the independence of the judiciary? Well, we certainly


need somebody who can do the detail. This is a human disaster as much as


anything else. We need somebody who, we saw in the meeting there, there


is a lot of anger and people aren't trusting. . That would be true, we


all understand the anger, of course, but that would be true whoever was


chosen. Are you really after... Do you want someone to head up this


inquiry that will give you a show trial rather than an independent


inquiry. It is exactly the opposite. . Woe won't give us a show trial, is


he? If there is no trust, people won't co-operate with him. A lot of


people will need to co-operate with him. Some of the groups are not


involved, they are protest groups who are not representing the


victims, or the survivors, we have very little evidence that those who


directly affected by this are saying they are not going to co-operate.


Well, everybody who lives round there is a victim to some extent,


they have all been affected, myself as well, I live three blocksia from


it and a lot of the groups are very much involved in that community, not


only the people who lived there who survived, but some of the campaign


groups have been campaigning for years about social housing in area.


What sort of person to you think should head up the inquiry is this


If it has to be Martin, we need an advisory panel with representatives


from different groups who can at least advise and feed in


information, at least if we have no choice, we need at least that. But


rather than him, what sort of person? I am not sure, are you


saying he should remain but he needs to be assisted by a panel or he


should be replaced? If we have no choice, then we should have an


advisory panel to back it up. Something that people trust in. At


the moment they don't trust the process, which is understandable,


and his name was announced the same day as the Hillsborough disaster,


the criminal investigation and so on, that after 28 year, this is what


people, how people see it. They want, they don't trust the process s


it won't work proppism it is not just what I think, it is what people


who are directly involved thing. John McDonnell the Shadow Chancellor


says people who died at Grenfell were murdered by political decision


do you agree? That is a strong way of putting it. I know a lot of


people feel like that. There is massive failure of political


decision, I have seen that happening. But murder? That is an


active verb. It means you intended to kill. So for Mr McDonnell to be


right, these were political decisions taken intended to kill. I


don't share his view on that particular issue, there has been a


failure of care, for many, many years and a failure of investment


for many year, as I have seen myself. But part of the problem has


been investment. They had nine million spent on this block I was


looking at it today, the other tower blocks round it have not been clad.


Of course if they had gone on fire, the disaster would not have been on


the same scale. Nine million helped to produce this. In indeed. The


process of how that building was refurbished. It says it is to make


it look better, half a mile down the road, the tower blocks have been


clad, they were clad in mineral wool. I spent a day at a seminar by


chance understanding, it is non-combustible. Who made that


decision to use rain cladding rather than mineral wool. You were on the


the board of who took that decision. The council had no say about the


specification, we didn't have any involvement at all. It didn't come


before you, because it has tenants on it too. The TMO does, The


advisory committee to the TMO. There is the TMO. I was not there at the


time. As far as I understand a sub group decided or reviewed the


specifications of that. The housing and property committee is part of


the council. Obviously you a say, but whether or not, we don't have


any say at all over specification, I want to say somebody because I have


been accused of... That because my predecessor said I


there is no foundation for that allegation. I thank you for clearing


that up. Thank you for joining us too.


Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.


A long way to go, but small signs of an economic improvement.


So how does the Scottish Government ensure progress is maintained?


And we hear from an organisation which hopes to do for


Scottish Labour what Momentum has done for Jeremy Corbyn.


There was relief all round this week as new figures showed the Scottish


economy has not fallen into recession - in fact,


it grew by 0.8% in the first quarter of this year,


compared to growth of only 0.2% across the UK as a whole.


Although growth across the UK had been stronger on an annual basis,


some of the growth seems down to recovery in the oil and gas


industry, which has been hammered by collapsing oil prices.


But the question still remains: are Scotland's problems more


Last week the former First Minister, Alex Salmond, called


opposition politicians, economists, the media in general


and this programme in particular 'merchants of doom' for our coverage


So should we turn into dealers in delight?


Or perhaps pay close attention to Mr Salmond's injunction not


to take one set of figures too seriously - something we too


pointed out, incidentally, in our coverage last week.


Well, in a moment we'll speak to the Economy Minister Keith Brown.


I spoke a little earlier to David Johnston, a digital entrepreneur,


and to David Bell, an economist from Stirling University. Both of them


featured in our report last week. You are both under strict


instructions to have your best have the clappy demeanour on. These


figures this week were pretty good, would they? I think they were. I


think it is a reason to be glad about Scotland's economic


performance. The trend had been, and I think this is what the forecasters


have been looking at, relatively negative, but in the last quarter


things have picked up a lot. Particularly in manufacturing. I


guess the real issue here is, is that nothing to be explained? The


Scottish Government's statisticians say that 60% of the relative


underperformance of the Scottish economy over recent months has been


due to the decline in oil and gas. But that leaves 40% to be explained.


Is your view that there is something else to be explained? I think there


are a political uncertainties around, but it's almost impossible


to quantify what effects these might have. Part of the success of the


rest of the UK, maybe, has been that it has been more successful in


setting up complex value chains around the manufacturing sector cars


and so on. Scotland doesn't quite have the critical mass around that.


But I British are the Scottish Government is aware of this issue


and is trying to do it, for example, in the food and drink industry,


which is very important for our economy. What could they do? Is


there a need for them to address this in the short term? Alex Salmond


takes the view that because of the way the national accounts account


for oil and gas, in other words that will production goes in the UK


accounts, and when we talk about oil and gas in Scotland, it's only the


economic activity surrounding it. There is nothing to explain, the


underperformance is entirely under accounted for that. Even taking the


employment and other activity, that is it in itself quite considerable.


The wages of the people working in the industry and the activity around


different parts of the country. It is bound to have a multiplier effect


on other sectors of the Scottish economy, so I think oil and gas


clearly is a pretty big explanation of where we have got to. It then


begs the question, is there a need for the Scottish Government to be


thinking of doing something in addition to what it was trying to do


anyway, indeed can it do anything? I think it can do stuff, but that kind


of stuff doesn't hit the headlines all that much. Also it's on a slow


burner. The long-term performance of the Scottish economy has been pretty


much in line with the rest of the UK, and we know the UK has a number


of weaknesses in comparison with other developed countries.


Particularly around issues like skills, but ownership, access to


finance. -- entrepreneurship. The Scottish Government can do its own


bid to a certain extent to address these issues, I think it is trying


to do so, but a lot of that doesn't make the headlines. David Johnston,


presumably you welcomed the figures we saw this week, although we should


stress it is just one set of figures. The underlying growth, if


you analyse the growth rate over the past year, Scotland is still lagging


behind the rest of the UK. Do you think something other than the


obvious effects are to blame? David mentioned small businesses getting


access to finance. That's something the government could help with. It


will definitely help us sort of grow the business and what we are trying


to do, not just in the UK but we are looking further afield now to North


America. We are finding that the services we provide in the states,


we have the talent here and... You help people make websites?


Basically, digital strategy all the way through to the design and build


up of websites. Was held in July from the government you feel you're


not getting? -- what helped do you feel you're not getting? Is a lot


the private sector can do as well. One of the things we are a big


proponent of this getting young people into digital at an early age.


It's not just about working in our sector, but Digital is a great


enabler for a lot of the difference work streams. Life sciences,


renewable energy. We are members of the body called us like a body you


read this and our industry. What can the government do that would help


you? We spoke about access to finance. We are trying to develop a


number of products that we think will help the business scale and


grow. What we find is that there doesn't seem to be these sort of


pots of money that we can access to do that. You were talking about


loans? Loans or in some shape or form, something to help stimulate


what we are trying to do. In places like California, I imagine someone


might yourself would find a range of capital funds falling all over you.


Yes, digital goals. We had a team member go to San Francisco, and it


is a different world there in terms of people's... The likelihood of


actually getting access to funds to do these things, to create these


products. And actually stimulates the economy. Is there a case for...


Labour this week have proposed ?20 billion Scottish investment. I know


there is a Scottish investment bank already, but it doesn't seem to be


anything like that size. Could that be a game changer? Is there a case


for doing something pretty bowls? I am all for both strategies, but you


have to be careful, because you run into difficulties of picking


winners. We know the Scottish economy has some great companies


that are innovative, but developing products which they can sell


internationally. And it's important to support these. It's also


important to realise that we have a long tail of companies that are less


productive, and need some kind of stimulus to get them to innovate, to


get them to take on more skilled workers. The question of how you use


your finance, the strategy of doing that has to be fought through --


thought through very carefully. The good kicking you are referring to,


how could that be administered? You can do it passively by improving


skills. Especially around the technical. College based, perhaps.


That helps. All companies, if the quality of the Labour they are


receiving is improved. Then the question is how do you particularly


add value to the once you are instilling so well? I don't know, it


might be that we need a more competitive environment. It is clear


that some of our companies do very well in a competitive environment,


but others just seem to roll along. You talked in the film we did last


week about your concerns about not getting people equipped with the


skills from, coming from university to companies like yours. What did


you mean by that? They don't have specific computer skills? Or more


generally they're not very literate and numerate? The skills we are


looking for is far more than just literacy and numeracy. It is


specific skill sets around developers, people who can do the


actual coding of websites. You are not getting that? When we recruit,


it seems to be, certainly in certain roles, we do struggle to find these


people. That might not just be... We might not be an attractive company


to work for, so there is end that we can do. I think it has to start a


lot earlier than University, at schools. When I said earlier about


digital skills being such an enabler, I think it has to start


writing the beginning. Kids? Mobile phones, that's already happening.


You hear the stories about kids touching papers and wondering why


they're not interactive! You both maintain smiles on your face


throughout, thank you very much. Well, I'm joined now by


the Economy Secretary, Keith Brown. On the issue of whether there is


something to be explained other than the obvious decline in oil and gas,


what is your view? This is very good news, not just because of the four


times the rate of the UK growth, but also productivity has increased. A


record number of businesses in Scotland now. It's baffling


performance once again for FDI in Scotland. On the negative side,


there are two governments involved in this economy. Look what the UK


Government is doing, nearly 3% inflation. ?100 billion for every


year they have been in power in doubt. Ringing in new taxes like the


apprenticeship levy. Taxes proposed for self-employed people. You have


to get the two governments working together. It would be very useful to


have a debate, and to get the UK Government to come out and say some


of the things they should be doing in the Scottish economy. Get behind


Scottish businesses. There is something to explain, but why should


it be the UK Government's fault? The UK Government policies apply in


England and Wales as well. Happiness explain a relative underperformance


by the Scottish economy? I don't they get is a relative


underperformance. Four times the rate of growth in Scotland's.


Unemployment is lower in Scotland than it is in the rest of the UK.


And things we keep Government could do Scottish economy, and the never


challenged on these things, they are not made to come and justify these


things. Perhaps it would be a good idea to do that everyone thanks


these figures are really good this week. The Scottish economy as board


and the UK economy has grown by more than 2%, so clearly there is an ICQ,


and what I am asking is why should the UK Government policies explain


that gap, which is largely oil and gas but not entirely, when their


policies apply in England as well? I think you just heard from David Bell


and others about their disability impact of the downtime and Scott is


in gas in Scotland, and also the way these figures are recounted in


Scotland. But you're right, we have to drive up the number of companies


that export in Scotland. We have also had about some of the


challenges in terms of skills, is basic computer skills. We have to do


more of those things and get those things right, and also to continue


to drive productivity. We have increased it by 74% by last ten


years. That's all it takes is up to the level of the UK. We have to


start competing by set with France and Germany. A lot of work still


today. Some your opponents have been saying this morning, my God, they


are celebrating because they are not in reassessing, but there is a much


bigger challenge you. Oil and gas... We should point out that we are


talking about the economic activity that surrounds the industry of oil


and gas. That might never recover. I don't think that is the case. I


mean, to the levels it was before. I am not celebrating. These are good,


encouraging figures. But we have seen salivating by the opposition


parties trying to talk up things before these businesses commit.


Businesses out to asset to the back teeth of the Scottish economy being


talked down by the Tories and Labour. There is huge interest in


tapping into their expertise in Scotland. I was in Kazakhstan and


there are more opportunities are you suggesting that oil and gas activity


could get back to the level it was at before the collapse? I think


there is a huge future for oil and gas. There are some ice expertise in


Scotland. I was in Abu Dhabi, and they have a huge amount of... What I


find most have 80 Scottish companies when, because they know that there


are tenets of markets. They are very switched on to looking at these


other markets and we want to encourage that. But that is not


showing up in the figures yet? We have seen some improvement, we have


seen a 3.4% increase in terms of productivity don't oil and gas, and


we are starting to see that. Perhaps attitudes it is companies been very


forward looking and looking at overseas markets. Scotland need


something to fill an. I remember when SNP first came to power, all


the talk was about renewables. I note this creates jobs, because when


time bound and things like that, what was meant was that Scotland


could develop a new Andy Street, it could be manufacturing, expertise.


It was the big thing that was going to drive the Scottish economy. It


hasn't really happened, has it? Can you point to any impact? I can point


to the impact of the UK Government in the Scottish economy. People will


tell you they have had the legs sticking out from underneath them by


the UK Government's failure to support carbon capture and also


because of the subsidy programme that was there before. I thought


that subsidy programme was for onshore? Offshore renewables was


going to be the big thing, and in fact there are no huge offshore wind


turbine development in England's, but have anything in Scotland. It


has timed out to be the opposite of what we were told. There are very


exciting developments to beat coming. We have seen carbon capture


possibilities that have been delayed or cancelled, the point I'm trying


to make is that what we have in Scotland is a Government, if you


look at growth and employment, the number of businesses with FDI. Look


at what the duty is not doing. Look at the lack of scrutiny for the UK


is not doing. When is the last time you had someone from the UK


Government and listed you're talking about the economy in Scotland. You


should do that. We are getting behind businesses in Scotland.


Ministers are held to account over the economy. Do you think that you


need to... What you are saying... It is fine? You mentioned encouraging


exporters, but you need to take any bold new initiatives? For example,


Scottish Labour over the last few days said, why don't we have a ?20


billion Scottish investment back. I know there is one already, but


nothing like that scale. We have asked a number of times, because


they had to get the borrowing consent of the UK Government, that


is read the rules work. We asked the Scottish futures trust to do exactly


that, in the way that other countries can support


infrastructure, takes bets on some really innovative companies and


support them at that bold measure. We don't have ?20 million, I wish


that dead. We're stuck with the Tories, which the Labour Party is


happy to support in this regard. In the meantime, we have to concentrate


on doubling the number of FDI staff we have in Europe... Your message to


Labour is that you would do the investment back if Labour could find


the money? If they supported our cars. I don't figure has been a


Labour Government oratorio Government... One UIQ, the other


thing that we haven't seen from the Scottish Government the SNP idiot


economic plans for independence. All day, the referendum might be kicked


into the long grass in the mean time. I view planning soon to come


out with something specific? We will come out when they think the time is


right. As you have just said, we will not be having a referendum


until Brexit is clear. That is the right way to do these things. I


didn't see any other sparkling on prior to basic uneven Brexit. We


will work on that. We will also provide... When? Before the last


referendum. In the meantime, we will get on with their business are


supporting businesses in Scotland. But you can't give us a date or even


a year when we will see their support? We'll have to see the


referendum is. We will give a detailed perspective of what we


intend. Thank you. The Momentum movement


certainly made an impact in the last general election -


helping to push Jeremy Corbyn closer towards the winning line than many


had thought possible. But while the group have firmly


established themselves on the political map down south,


their role here is taken by the Momentum grew out of Jeremy Corbyn's


2015 election campaign and it stated aim is to get Labour into


Government. It claims to have a campaigning network over 23,000


members, and 200,000 supporters. And it is taking some of the credit for


Labour's performance in a general election. I manifest offer something


very, very different. Like carbon, they are most definitely left of


centre, in favour of we disappeared in wealth, pitting the planet before


corporate interest, and renationalisation public services.


This seems appealing to younger voters, with a slight social media


and door-to-door campaign. My name is Elena from the Labour Party.


Momentum also want to transform Labour into a more modern party.


That has worried some Labour MPs. They feel rules could be changed to


see those considered off message face reselection. But they grip us


Finder insist they are for all. And the general election campaign, we


campaign for a Labour candidates and respective of registered in the past


on Jeremy Corbyn. We helped win seats for candidates supported


progress just as hard as we helped when teesra candidates who had


always supported us. That is the way we are going to carry on. There is


no equivalent movement in Scotland. Here the Campaign for Socialism


takes that role. They did against Kezia Dugdale for Scottish Labour


leader, but Kezia one. leader, but Kezia one.


# Oh, Jeremy Corbyn # Can then emulate the success not


of the border? Well, earlier I spoke


to the chair of Campiagn Let's start with Labour as a


movement. Down south, they became to be the biggest mass movement party


in Western Europe. There has not been a sunlight up search in the


party here. I figure has been an increase in membership. It has not


been as high as across England and Wales, but it certainly have seen


people get involved. Presumably, you would like to ramp that up? I think


there is much more we can do to get people involved in a genuine


movement. What needs to happen up here for that to happen? Because the


carbon effect in England, arguably, I'm interested in whether you agree,


many people are saying that Labour's unexpectedly good result in Scotland


was largely to do with the Corbyn effect. I think that is largely


true. There was a huge difference in England and Wales, a huge surge down


there. There was only maybe two or 3% up here. I think we should have


been far more focused on Corbyn and a manifesto that he represents, and


they would have seen more games are paid if we had done that. What about


the Labour leadership up here? Are you fans of them? They are pretty


hostile to Jeremy Corbyn. I don't think there is any secret that Kezia


Dugdale voted for John Smith in the last leadership election. I don't


necessarily think it's about leadership are pure. It's about the


policies and a membership that the one to have. I figure has been


lessons learned. There was an e-mail from Kezia Dugdale to the full


membership basically saying that we want to campaign on the For The Many


manifesto. Whatever the policy lunches is industrial strategy,


soggy bobby creating good jobs across the economy... What Labour up


you haven't done... There is no Jezza effect in the medicine has


been an angling. Kezia Dugdale isn't turning up at Rock festivals and


addressing everyone and having centres eyes and people cheering


hard. That is a difference. No. But I think Jeremy Corbyn has captured


something and represent something. It is not about him, while the ad


champ team -- chanting his name. We need something better. A real


alternative and a different vision for how this country should be run


and organise. Do you take the aim of your talking about as an acceptance


from the leadership that they had to change? I can't speak for them, but


it certainly an indication that the party wants to get behind the


manifesto policies and devising, and sat to build on that, because that


is what got us against in the general election. I don't think


there is many people dispute that. The upsurge in interest in politics


in young people that these with Jeremy Corbyn, in Scotland tended to


happen for the SNP. It was the Yes campaign that mobilised thousands of


people. The SNP put on 100,000 new members. Do you think Labour...


Really, Labour dead lows, but there's anything you can do to when


over those people. Yes. I think a quarter are people who voted yes in


the referendum voted Labour this time, and I think the reason so many


people went to the SNP last year signed, because it was for a better


society. They put a campaign for others and for a different country


and how great would be better for. I think what they were offering was a


dead-end and wouldn't have actually provided they change, and I think


what the Labour Party is putting across is actually about genuine


change, giving workers more control and a fairer society. If the Prozac,


we will begin to when. Why do you think it was the SNP who were able


to communicate to young people and not to Labour Party? At that time, I


think the better together campaign was about what young people couldn't


have, about things that would be different. I think, this time round


Labour is now thinking about big ideas, about changing things and


about creating for the many, not if you. I think that is a really clear,


simple message about what Labour stands for. We didn't have that


before. You effectively saying, we think independence is a dead end?


Are you also saying basically that it's just not very interesting? We


have different things to talk about? I think that is correct. There are


people in the Labour Party who supported yes, the majority


supported no. I think we can welcome all opinions on this issue. If we


want to see real change, we need to talk about the financial system, the


economy, taxation, things that whether we like it or not organised


at a UK level. With Jeremy Corbyn and Labour, we have a real wave of


change. Give me one way you would like the Scottish Labour leadership


to change to attempt to get the kind of momentum that Labour in England


have seemed to have? I don't think there is one thing. We have already


talked about them getting behind the policy, bringing that Morse before,


rather than talking about being anti-independence and the SNP.


Fizzing across a positive vision is a really good move and I would


encourage more of that. Thank you. And time now for a look


at the Week Ahead. I'm joined by freelance


journalist and columnist And she's alongside former


Scottish Conservative MP and former chair of the Scottish Conservatives,


Raymond Robertson. are you convinced by Keith Brown's


lying on the economy? That was an interesting interview there he


struggled to get to grips with what is actually happening in the


Scottish economy. He managed to get through almost ten minutes without


mentioning the referendum, which is one of the biggest problems, that is


causing instability for business. It's difficult to find any evidence.


No, it's not. It's causing instability, uncertainty. These are


two things businesses don't want or need. He was going to come and


invest in Scotland where the constitutional future is all the


First Minister is assessing about? They're not interested in helping


Scottish business. Lots of people, according to the figures for inward


investment. Which are very high. I don't know which figures you are


referring to. He is having to double the number of operatives abroad


which doesn't really augur well for inward investment, it is having to


do that. The basic problem of the Scottish economy is uncertainty and


instability. That has been caused by a First Minister he was of Sastre by


a referendum. Wanted you make of that? I think it's right that keep


down didn't talk about independence when you are asking questions about


the economy. He was remaining on topic. The main uncertainty that's


been caused throughout the UK is the uncertainty presented by Brexit. We


are trying to mitigate against the damage that's going to cause. Brexit


is happening across the UK, so can't explain the specifics to Scotland.


Ed Kassig when why Scotland is doing better. Is it something the Scottish


Government is doing? -- it can't explain why. If the opposite result


had come out and the Scottish Government was underperforming


compared to the rest of the UK, the Scottish Government would have been


blamed unfairly. It's also not very fair to say that it's all down to


what they're doing. Connecting our first night in with our second item,


is the SNP in danger of being outmanoeuvred by Labour? Labour in


Scotland are coming up with these bold new ideas, let's have a ?20


billion investment and so on. The SNP is starting to look a bit like


the people you have been in power for ten years, and don't really have


much new to say. I don't think they're being outmanoeuvred by


Scottish Labour, I think we are hearing about the idea of Scottish


Labour getting behind Jeremy Corbyn's agenda. But there isn't an


individual within Scottish Labour around whom there is any momentum.


As long as Labour get the moment, it's bad news for the SNP. I haven't


got enough momentum. They didn't manage to become the government in


the last General Election. Jeremy Corbyn might talk about being a


government in waiting but it is just talk. To you think there is... You


go to tell me there is a marvellous future for the Conservative party in


Scotland. Absolutely. If you look at the number of seats are vulnerable,


it is more to Labour. The arithmetic might look like that, but if you had


to ask anyone which party in Scotland has momentum, used that


phrase, it would be the Scottish Conservatives. That is obvious.


There's no doubt the Jeremy Corbyn has breathed new life into the


Labour Party in Scotland, but the question is what happened at the


General Election a dead cat bounce, with something more deep and


fundamental? Talking of dead cats and bouncing, can Theresa May last


very long? As Prime Minister and leader of the Conservative party.


She is the Prime Minister and a leader of the Conservative party.


Let's see. I don't think anyone knows. She can't be the


Conservatives into another election. Absolutely. Let's say you were


taking your former role as chair of the Conservative party. You're asked


for advice, what would you say? Try and stay in power as long as


possible? My advice would be to do what she said to the 1922 committee


after the election, but she got the party into this mess and she has to


get us out. I think she has to be given time to get as out of the


mess. What would you do? I think it's unfair to say she got us into


this mess because she was not in -- not in favour of Brexit. She did


call the General Election, obviously a tactical error, but in answer to


the question of whether she will remain as Prime Minister, the only


reason she may continue for longer than expected is because of the


clownish nature of the other candidates that seem to be eyeing


her job. Do you think what they will do is let her do the tough stuff,


exits? David Cameron resigned, he said on his way out of Downing


Street, they can do this. She said she got us into this mess, and she


did. I think she have to lead us out of it. What happens one or two years


down the road, I don't know yet. To think she will take the Conservative


party into a second General Election? Candidly, I don't. We are


going into the summer, everything is becoming a bit silly season, but we


still don't have the faintest idea what Brexit means other than Brexit,


or what the UK Government's plan is in terms of what it once... I think


the reason there isn't a plan is because they can make up for the


plans they want. The you're holding the cards. We have heard that Donald


Trump is going to do a very big deal with the UK. None of that can happen


until March 2019. All this talk is completely meaningless. We need to


wait and see what we are given. We're not clear on what the British


government intends to negotiate. It almost doesn't matter. They are not


necessarily going to get it. They won't tell us what they want because


they will have egg on their face when they don't get it. I was


usually encouraged about what President Trump was saying, that


Howard next predecessor would be at the front of the queue. And that he


was ready to proceed, to do a full copper hands of trade deal with the


United Kingdom. -- copper hands of deal. You think it can turn into


something that is beneficial? The British people have spoken. I accept


the result of the referendum. Are all these discussions, would you go


for it staying in the single market with a customs union? Although I


voted remain, I think the British people voted to leave the EU and


that's what we have to do. Still leave the customs union, single


market? I think that's what the British people voted for. You asked


the British people if they wanted to stay in the customs union, most


would say what is the customs union? The campaign did mean when


permission about what I was voting for. Obviously we have to leave


because that was the vote, but it would be wrong to conclude from that


referendum on what was going through anyone's heads when they cast the


votes. I'll be back at the


same time next week.


Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew asks Owen Paterson whether remainers are taking advantage of Theresa May's weakness to scupper Brexit, asks Caroline Flint if Labour MPs should be worried about Jeremy Corbyn strengthening his grip on the Labour Party and discusses the Grenfell Tower fire disaster with newly-elected Labour MP for Kensington Emma Dent Coad. The political panel consists of Julia Hartley-Brewer, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

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