09/07/2017 Sunday Politics Scotland


09/07/2017

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer are joined by Labour MPs Caroline Flint and Emma Dent Coad, as well as the Conservatives' Owen Paterson MP.


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:39.:00:43.

Donald Trump says he wants to do a "powerful" trade deal

:00:44.:00:45.

Theresa May says other countries are ready to talk too.

:00:46.:00:49.

But could the transitional deal with the EU that some are pushing

:00:50.:00:52.

for scupper the Prime Minister's plans?

:00:53.:00:55.

Having defied expectation in last month's general election,

:00:56.:00:59.

are Jeremy Corbyn and his allies about to purge the party

:01:00.:01:02.

The deadliest fire in London since the Second World War has

:01:03.:01:09.

devastated a community and shocked Britain, but will the political

:01:10.:01:12.

storm that's blown up in its aftermath help uncover

:01:13.:01:14.

And on Sunday Politics Scotland: Far from going into recession

:01:15.:01:21.

But is there still an underlying problem?

:01:22.:01:25.

I'll be talking to the Economy Secretary Keith Brown.

:01:26.:01:45.

If we are darking today we apoll jierks it could be a power cut or

:01:46.:01:52.

the BBC is trying to save money with its fuel bill! Assuming you can see

:01:53.:01:56.

them... And with me - as always -

:01:57.:01:56.

for TV's second most keenly watched on-screen relationships

:01:57.:02:00.

after Love Island, the Sunday Politics panel -

:02:01.:02:01.

Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer They'll be tweeting

:02:02.:02:03.

throughout the programme. So - Donald Trump says a trade

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deal with UK could be Theresa May says that

:02:10.:02:12.

other world leaders, including those of China,

:02:13.:02:15.

India and Japan, are also keen to do President and PM were speaking at

:02:16.:02:18.

the G20 summit of the world's major President and PM were speaking at

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the G20 summit of the world's major But could the transitional

:02:23.:02:26.

deal that some want, that would keep the UK in the EU's

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single market and Customs Union for several years after exit,

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put paid to those plans? Here's what the man likely to be

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the next Lib Dem leader - Vince Cable - told the Marr show

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earlier. I'm beginning to think that

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Brexit may never happen, The problems are so enormous,

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the divisions within the two major parties are so enormous,

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I can see a scenario We're joined now from

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Shropshire by the former Conservative Cabinet Minister

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and leading Brexit Ogise, it could be a power cut or

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the BBC is trying to save money with its fuel bill! Assuming you can see

:03:14.:03:15.

them... Good morning to you, Vince Cable says that he thinks Brexit may

:03:16.:03:18.

now not happen, what do you say to that? What is new? Vince Cable

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always wanted to stay in the European Union, he is chucking

:03:24.:03:28.

buckets of water round, we had a huge vote last year, we had an

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enormous vote in the House of Commons, 494 votes to trigger

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Article 50, we had an election campaign in which the two main

:03:39.:03:43.

parties took 85% of the vote they back the speech and leaving the

:03:44.:03:48.

customs union and the single market and the ECJ and Vince Cable's party

:03:49.:03:52.

went down in votes as did the other parties that want to stay in the

:03:53.:03:56.

European Union. So Vince is behind history, we are going to leave, we

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are on target, Michael Gove triggered leaving the 1964 London

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convention so we can take back control of the seas and bring back a

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sane fishing policy and more important getting environmental

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gained in our marine environment, so... You think we are still heading

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for the exit but Mrs May called the election because she wanted a

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mandate for her version of Brexit. She didn't get it. Surely you can't

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just continue with business as usual? Well, we have been over the

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election, we did not get the number of sees we wanted but on votes, we

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got 13.7 million, that is more than the great Blair landslide. You had

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an overall majority and you lost it. That is a fact. I said that. We know

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that. So you didn't get the mandate. We got the vote! We got a lot votes

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and so did the Labour Party. You know we are in a Parliamentary

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system where what matters is the number of seats you get in the

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Commons, you know enough about the British constitution to know a that

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is what determines the mandate. Not the number of votes, we are not a

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Presidential system. I am First Minister throughly wear

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of that. 85% of the election voted for parties that wanted to leave. If

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you take votes in the Commons last week on the Queen's Speech not a

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single Conservative MP abstained or voted against and the Labour Party

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unwisely, Chuka Umunna triggered and amendment wanting us to stay in the

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customs union and got hammered. So, I am clear that we have to deliver

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this, much the most important point in all this, is if we do not deliver

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a proper Brexit which means leaving the single market, leaving the

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customs union and the jurisdiction of the ECJ, there will be appalling

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damage to the integrity of the whole establishment. Not just political,

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you, the media, and the judicial establishment. Some would say that

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damage has already been done in other area, let us look at the

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detail. Under Article 50 Britain leaves the EU in 20 months which

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means the deal will have to be done in 15 or 16 months to allow for

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people to approve it in the various Parliaments and so son. Progress has

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the been glacial. We have only just begun. Why should there not be a

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transitional deal that keep some of the current arrangements in place to

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mitigate this falling off a cliff? As Liam said in the Commons, Liam

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who? Liam Fox, this should be one of the easiest ever deals to conclude,

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because already, we have zero tariffs, already we have complete

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conformty on standards and already, those who are negotiating with us

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have an enormous surplus, the Germans sold an enormous number of

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cars, so that is the basis on which, if you look at Nafta... We haven't

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even started talking about free trade yet. That is not on the agenda

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yet. Let me finish. If you look at Nafta, that took 14 months, we are

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starting on a basis of mutual recognition of all our standard and

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zero tariffs so yes, there will be an implementation period but it is

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very very important politically this is concluded fast, as a huge

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economic imperative as well, because it is uncertainty about this that

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will damage future investment and job, the quicker we get on with it

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and we know where we are going and we can reach out to the world, we

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can take advantage of the fact stated on the European Commission

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website that 9 a 5% of the world's growth is going to come from outside

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European Union, which is what we are seeing, we have seen sales go from

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61% to 43% and it is tumbling to 43%. We cannot take advantage of

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these wonderful opportunities in the wider world... Why not? Why not?

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Germany does. Because they can't conclude free trade deals. Germany

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runs a balance of payment surplus, it finds it possible to trade with

:08:27.:08:29.

the rest of the EU and with the rest of the world. It has a bigger

:08:30.:08:35.

surplus than China, if Germany can do both why can't we? They can't.

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They can't conclude deal, we Trump wants to do a deal with us. You saw

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Theresa May sitting down with the economies of the future, India,

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China, South Korea, these are all longing to do more business with us,

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we can only do that once we are out of the customs union, that is vital

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for the future of this country, that is where the future growth is. The

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business in this country says we should stay in the single market and

:09:10.:09:13.

the customs union, at least through a transition period. Does that count

:09:14.:09:23.

for nothing, is Tory party now so antebusiness it ignores the wealth

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creators? I think what you are saying is that the CBI which

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represents very large organisations has made that statement, but talking

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to business widely, and smaller private businesses which dominate

:09:38.:09:40.

the economy, what is vital on this is to have a rapid implementation

:09:41.:09:44.

period. That is what is important. And there has to be clarity of where

:09:45.:09:50.

we are going, if we are in permanent limbo which will take a enormous

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amount of negotiation and will take ratification by the 27 countries and

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the European Parliament as well as our own, that will drag things out.

:09:59.:10:04.

What we need to do is a clean Claire statement of reciprocal free trade

:10:05.:10:08.

which should be really pretty easy to negotiate because we have that,

:10:09.:10:13.

we have conformty of standard, we have an implementation period. That

:10:14.:10:17.

needs to be done rapidly. Latest by the next election. OK, we shall see

:10:18.:10:22.

how simple it turns out to be. Thank you for joining us here.

:10:23.:10:25.

What do you make of this increasing talk of transition period in which

:10:26.:10:31.

it is not clear, we remain full members of the single market, full

:10:32.:10:36.

members of the customs union? Which came we cannot conclude very

:10:37.:10:40.

quickly, in Mr Trump's word a free trade deal? This is where the battle

:10:41.:10:47.

is now heading, between Brexiteer, levers, re-levers and the lot of it.

:10:48.:10:53.

This will be really what the only thing we could achieve in the next

:10:54.:10:58.

negotiations, what has changed since the general election which you were

:10:59.:11:02.

touching on there, is of course Brussels in the year 2017 are no

:11:03.:11:06.

longer negotiating with Theresa May, they are negotiating with the House

:11:07.:11:11.

of Commons and the you know majority for a softer Brexit, so this will

:11:12.:11:15.

begin, the transition deal will define the rest of deal, the rest of

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the final relationship, so getting the transition on the right

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trajectory is crucial, hence why you have Philip Hammond making a major

:11:23.:11:28.

play to try and keep one foot in the EU, if not necessarily in the custom

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union and the single market and everyone else says get out. These

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are the opening skirmishes on what will certainly be the nettle that

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will will be grasped round about some time between October and spring

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next year. Are you worried that the election result, the fact that she

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didn't get this mandate that she had looked for and she has ended up in a

:11:48.:11:51.

weaker position than she was before the election, is going to make

:11:52.:11:55.

Brexit more difficult, it is going to muddy the water, it means her

:11:56.:12:00.

idea of Brexit is not necessarily the one that become Brexit? Yes I am

:12:01.:12:07.

worried are about as a Brexiteer, the same remain yaks would have been

:12:08.:12:12.

trying to scupper the will of the British people as expressed in June

:12:13.:12:21.

2016. Now they might succeed. I don't think any will succeed. We

:12:22.:12:26.

have to stop this nonsense and the media included, of this talk of soft

:12:27.:12:30.

Brexit an transition period. We have a transition period once we are out

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when we are leading to the next process, with have to be out of the

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single market, and not under the European Court of Justice. All

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within the two years, all by March... That happens automatically,

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then we can agree for a two, three year max, three year period we will

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have a position as we move to the new deal, but I don't think there

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many Leave voters, most Remain voters accept that result, unlike

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the people like the CBI who are fighting against it still, they will

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accept anything more than that. I think Owen Paterson is right. We are

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in a situation where we will face some serious disflus the

:13:13.:13:16.

establishment, the political world, the Melissa Reidia if we don't obey

:13:17.:13:21.

the will of the people. What do you make of the reports in the Sunday

:13:22.:13:28.

papers, it was only ten days ago, two weeks' ago Mr Hammond was going

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to be the caretaker leader, that is a story that didn't seem to last

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48-hour, but what do you make of the remain MPs on both sides of the

:13:39.:13:43.

House, plus peers, are going to try to derail this repeal act, that the

:13:44.:13:51.

Government needs to push EU law on to the UK statute book. I I think

:13:52.:13:56.

they will use it to at certain key points to attempt to defeat the

:13:57.:14:00.

Government, not over the whole thing, this summer reminds me so

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much of the summer of 92 who the Maastricht Treaty coming into a

:14:07.:14:10.

fragile John Major Government, and people then were plotting, in the

:14:11.:14:15.

opposite direction, Eurosceptics to try and stop that. He won with a

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huge percentage of the vote. Tiny majority, 23, bigger than she would

:14:20.:14:28.

have died for that. A shock victory. The The summer was full of talk and

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plotting, some which came to fruition in the sessions after and

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some will come into fruition from this autumn on ward where you will

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see alliances across the Commons manned the Lords, there will be

:14:41.:14:43.

moments of high Parliamentary drama, I think. Sounds like a long hot

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autumn. An a long hot autumn, and winter.

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Winter too? I thought it was all global warming. This will add to the

:15:01.:15:04.

Now, Jeremy Corbyn may not have won the election,

:15:05.:15:06.

but by confounding almost everyone's expectations he is unassailable

:15:07.:15:08.

as Labour leader for the foreseeable future.

:15:09.:15:10.

So what does that mean for his MPs, most of whom - just a year ago -

:15:11.:15:14.

Labour's new chairman and key cupping Ally said last week the

:15:15.:15:23.

party may be too broad church. He also seemed to endorse the idea of

:15:24.:15:28.

deselecting labour MPs critical of the leadership by saying if you get

:15:29.:15:32.

deselected there must be a reason. But he has since wrote back from his

:15:33.:15:34.

deselected there must be a reason. comments in another interview. Chris

:15:35.:15:37.

deselected there must be a reason. Williamson, the newly appointed

:15:38.:15:40.

labour frontbencher said some of his colleagues in the Parliamentary

:15:41.:15:44.

party think they have a God-given right to rule. He also said that if

:15:45.:15:50.

MPs don't support the leadership's programme, local constituency

:15:51.:15:54.

parties should find someone else who will. And in the seat of liveable

:15:55.:15:59.

waiver treats this week, left wing supporters of Jeremy Corbyn won

:16:00.:16:04.

several positions on the committee. One said she must get on board quite

:16:05.:16:09.

quickly now, and also publicly apologise for not supporting Mr

:16:10.:16:15.

Corbyn in the past. Some Labour MPs rushed to Luciano Berger's defends.

:16:16.:16:25.

Elsewhere, a list of 49 Labour MPs was published, and they said these

:16:26.:16:29.

usual suspects should join the Liberals. The list included

:16:30.:16:33.

prominent former frontbencher is like Chris Leslie, Chuka Umunna and

:16:34.:16:37.

tidying -- Heidi Alexander. And this is what the Shadow

:16:38.:16:42.

Education Secretary and Jeremy Corbyn ally,

:16:43.:16:44.

Angela Rayner, had to say earlier. Anyone that talks of deselecting

:16:45.:16:46.

any of my colleagues, frankly they need to think

:16:47.:16:48.

about actually, who are Who are making the problems

:16:49.:16:51.

for our communities at the moment? Who have made those disastrous

:16:52.:16:57.

policies that are hurting the people It doesn't help them if we're

:16:58.:17:00.

fighting each other. We're joined now from

:17:01.:17:03.

Sheffield by former Labour Cabinet Minister,

:17:04.:17:05.

Caroline Flint. Welcome to the programme. Labour

:17:06.:17:17.

frontbencher Chris Williamson has said, where Labour MPs don't support

:17:18.:17:23.

the leadership's programme it's incumbent on local members to find

:17:24.:17:27.

someone else who will. What do you make of that? I think it's very sad

:17:28.:17:38.

that talk of deselection is the line people are taking. We had an

:17:39.:17:43.

election where 262 Labour MPs, very different ones, have all won a

:17:44.:17:50.

mandate from their electorate and our job is, as Angela Rayner said

:17:51.:17:54.

this morning, is to focus on a government that is in disarray and

:17:55.:17:57.

how we can learn from the general election to broaden our appeal but

:17:58.:18:00.

also develop our policy is ready in time for the next election whenever

:18:01.:18:05.

that is called so I think all talk of deselection is misplaced and

:18:06.:18:11.

doesn't help Labour. But do you feel a purge of what is often referred to

:18:12.:18:18.

as the moderates in your party is now inevitable? No, because we have

:18:19.:18:22.

been here before in the 1980s when talk of deselection was suggested,

:18:23.:18:25.

it didn't happen in the way people thought it would, and I do believe,

:18:26.:18:31.

hearing how Ian Lee very, and I have worked with him in the 2010, 2015

:18:32.:18:40.

government and I have worked with Chris Williamson, Ian has already

:18:41.:18:47.

refined what he said, and what he's clearly was this deselection talk

:18:48.:18:51.

and the way to go ahead on it is not the right way forward. We to focus

:18:52.:18:58.

on looking outwards to understand that we have across the party

:18:59.:19:02.

hard-working Labour MPs with maybe different views across the Labour

:19:03.:19:05.

political spectrum, and I would have to say that Luciana is one of the

:19:06.:19:15.

most hard-working MPs in Parliament and homework on mental health is

:19:16.:19:19.

outstanding. That may be true, let's look at Luciana Berger's

:19:20.:19:26.

constituency. One of the committee members on her committee says she

:19:27.:19:31.

now has to get on board quite quickly. And even publicly apologise

:19:32.:19:38.

for past disloyalty. The direction of travel is clear, isn't it? That

:19:39.:19:45.

is one person on a committee in one constituency... Where there is a

:19:46.:19:50.

majority for that point of view now. I don't think there is, and the

:19:51.:19:59.

truth is... They took nine seat. Her constituency is all of the members

:20:00.:20:02.

in that constituency and what I would say, and I don't know this

:20:03.:20:05.

individual, look at the track record of Luciana and what she has done.

:20:06.:20:14.

Jeremy, in the 20 years I have been an MP under both Tony Blair and

:20:15.:20:18.

Gordon Brown, voted against the Labour whip on numerous occasions,

:20:19.:20:23.

he has been very upfront and honest about this, do you know in those 20

:20:24.:20:28.

years I never heard anybody say about Jeremy or anybody else who

:20:29.:20:32.

didn't vote with the Labour whip that they should face deselection or

:20:33.:20:37.

apologise. I think that represents the broad church of the Labour Party

:20:38.:20:42.

and we should look at what brings us together rather than differences on

:20:43.:20:46.

policy point of view and we should be looking outwards and dealing with

:20:47.:20:51.

that and working on it. You have said that three times but it has not

:20:52.:20:55.

happened and it may be that the people around Mr Corbyn, they think

:20:56.:20:58.

moderates like you, your day is over. You lost the 2015 election

:20:59.:21:04.

badly, you allowed Jeremy Corbyn to stand as leader, you failed to stop

:21:05.:21:09.

him twice, you thought he would make a mess of the June election and he

:21:10.:21:14.

didn't. Can you blame his supporters for wanting a career out of people

:21:15.:21:18.

who took these positions? I think there are some people who supported

:21:19.:21:22.

and still support Jeremy who feel that way but I don't believe they

:21:23.:21:28.

represent the people who supported Jeremy, and I don't believe Jeremy

:21:29.:21:31.

thinks this is in the best interests of the party. Only a few weeks ago

:21:32.:21:36.

John McDonnell praised my work on tax transparency. Since my election

:21:37.:21:42.

I have bumped into Jeremy and we have had a chat about what happened

:21:43.:21:45.

in the election and Jeremy recognises that we were up against

:21:46.:21:54.

an arrogant Tory party and has said to me he does understand this and

:21:55.:21:58.

said to the broader Parliamentary Labour Party... If I could just

:21:59.:22:04.

finish... What has he said about deselection? For example he said to

:22:05.:22:14.

me that he recognised that we have won in numerous places in

:22:15.:22:20.

outstanding circumstances but he's also said to me that he recognises

:22:21.:22:24.

that we need to broaden our reach and understand why we were

:22:25.:22:26.

working-class voters. That says to me that that is a leader who is up

:22:27.:22:33.

for and open to looking at the reasons why we were successful and

:22:34.:22:37.

the reasons we weren't and he wasn't closing down conversation on that. I

:22:38.:22:43.

take him on his word on that. He has not said that publicly. What we need

:22:44.:22:48.

from a leader is to challenge our party about where to go next and he

:22:49.:22:52.

has said that, Diane Abbott has said at a conference I was at a few weeks

:22:53.:22:57.

ago that we need now to look at our manifesto and look more clearly

:22:58.:23:01.

issues around tax and spend policies because obviously clearly now we

:23:02.:23:04.

have more time to look at those issues and also we may be facing a

:23:05.:23:08.

very different election when the time comes. That's what I want from

:23:09.:23:12.

the leadership team, talk about how we improve our message and reach,

:23:13.:23:16.

and by doing that get away from what song, a minority I have to say, are

:23:17.:23:26.

saying about deselection. Corbynistas like Paul Mason think

:23:27.:23:29.

moderates like you were to blame for the defeat. He said moderates were

:23:30.:23:34.

always attacking Mr Corbyn, that is quite popular view in the Jeremy

:23:35.:23:46.

Corbyn wing. I think that is Paul Mason's view and he is fundamentally

:23:47.:23:50.

wrong. When we look at the results of the last election, we can see a

:23:51.:23:56.

continuing from 2015 where Labour is losing support among older voters

:23:57.:24:01.

and what we see is in this election in 2017 Labour has... I think we are

:24:02.:24:08.

at our highest point amongst the middle-class voters compared to

:24:09.:24:12.

where we were in 1979 but the Tories are highest among working-class

:24:13.:24:18.

voters since 1979 as well. Those working-class voters weren't voting

:24:19.:24:22.

for a more left alternative to Labour and sadly they were voting

:24:23.:24:26.

Tory and we have to address that because our party is this broad

:24:27.:24:29.

church and representing working-class people is at the heart

:24:30.:24:32.

of what the Labour Party is about and that's a discussion we need to

:24:33.:24:36.

have. That is the depth of discussion we need to get into. That

:24:37.:24:42.

would put's with a fighting chance of taking on a Tory party that is in

:24:43.:24:48.

disarray. Caroline Flint, thank you for joining us.

:24:49.:24:50.

This week it was announced that the Grenfell Tower inquiry

:24:51.:24:53.

would hold its first public hearings in September, as it prepares

:24:54.:24:55.

to begin to examine what caused the tragedy.

:24:56.:24:57.

But some have warned that the situation now needs

:24:58.:24:59.

to be de-politicised, or it will damage

:25:00.:25:01.

In a moment we'll hear from the MP for Kensington and Chelsea

:25:02.:25:05.

where the Grenfell Tower fire took place.

:25:06.:25:07.

But first Emma Vardy looks at how political arguments have played

:25:08.:25:09.

a significant part in the aftermath of this terrible event.

:25:10.:25:25.

When you come here and you actually see it, your immediate thoughts

:25:26.:25:29.

are about the people, not about the politics.

:25:30.:25:33.

What happened up there is just so difficult to comprehend.

:25:34.:25:37.

But in the days after this tragedy, there was such outrage

:25:38.:25:44.

at governments and authorities, it became a political

:25:45.:25:46.

storm that those in power struggled to respond to.

:25:47.:25:48.

We want justice, we want justice, we want justice...

:25:49.:25:53.

People vented their anger outside Kensington town Hall.

:25:54.:26:01.

A visit to the Grenfell site by Theresa May saw her forced

:26:02.:26:04.

At Prime Minister's Questions, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn linked

:26:05.:26:12.

What the tragedy of Grenfell Tower has exposed is a disastrous

:26:13.:26:18.

And speaking at Glastonbury, Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell

:26:19.:26:22.

Those families, those individuals, 79 so far and there will be more,

:26:23.:26:29.

were murdered by political decisions that were taken over recent decades.

:26:30.:26:39.

I can't remember a major national tragedy that has been politicised

:26:40.:26:42.

I think using terms like murder is completely reckless

:26:43.:26:48.

The key thing is that we try to ascertain the facts

:26:49.:26:56.

this tragedy occurred to ensure it can never be repeated.

:26:57.:26:59.

And as soon as you introduce emotive phrases or emotive accusations

:27:00.:27:02.

or emotive allegations of that nature, then the discourse

:27:03.:27:04.

The whole debate around the tragedy becomes politicised and it makes it

:27:05.:27:10.

Some argue the political language that was used was wrong and helped

:27:11.:27:20.

to ramp up the vitriol in an unhelpful way, but

:27:21.:27:24.

for others, it was entirely justified.

:27:25.:27:29.

That's what an opposition party is for, it's to challenge

:27:30.:27:31.

the Government and to ask the right questions and I think people

:27:32.:27:38.

round here would say thank goodness, there's somebody in politics

:27:39.:27:40.

Pilgrim Tucker had helped Grenfell Tower residents campaign

:27:41.:27:43.

for building improvements in previous years, and returned

:27:44.:27:45.

I've been to meetings before the fire and I've been

:27:46.:27:49.

to meetings since the fire, attended by ordinary residents

:27:50.:27:52.

with no involvement in politics and they are saying very political

:27:53.:27:57.

things about land in London and property ownership in London,

:27:58.:27:59.

Had we campaigned harder, would we have prevented this?

:28:00.:28:04.

Fire safety campaigners say they were trying to draw attention

:28:05.:28:09.

to certain issues long before what happened at Grenfell Tower,

:28:10.:28:13.

and say it's no one political party but the whole system has failed.

:28:14.:28:25.

It's easy to say, "You've got an inquiry, let's wait for that."

:28:26.:28:28.

We already know two very clear things.

:28:29.:28:30.

Had the people there been protected by sprinklers,

:28:31.:28:32.

People don't die in homes protected by sprinklers.

:28:33.:28:35.

The second thing is the outrage that the building regulations had

:28:36.:28:37.

They should be done year in, year out.

:28:38.:28:41.

Generally people in house fires die in ones, twos

:28:42.:28:43.

or threes, which doesn't make a political statement.

:28:44.:28:45.

So the political parties haven't really needed

:28:46.:28:47.

They weren't prepared for 70 or more people to die at once

:28:48.:28:52.

The public inquiry, which will address some of those issues,

:28:53.:28:56.

has already faced calls for its newly appointed

:28:57.:28:57.

And that was a view echoed by the Labour MP

:28:58.:29:02.

You would call on him, would you, to stand down?

:29:03.:29:07.

I don't think there will be any credibility and some people

:29:08.:29:13.

are saying they won't cooperate with it so it's not going to work.

:29:14.:29:16.

I will look into this matter to the very best of my ability...

:29:17.:29:21.

I think the attacks on the chair have to cease, I think the attacks

:29:22.:29:24.

It actually makes it harder to get to the facts and get

:29:25.:29:30.

to the truth and that's the most important thing now.

:29:31.:29:35.

Some said it was unavoidable that this tragedy became political,

:29:36.:29:38.

but will the politics help get to the truth?

:29:39.:29:47.

I'm joined now by the Labour MP for Kensington -

:29:48.:29:49.

who we heard at the end of that film - Emma Dent Coad.

:29:50.:29:52.

Now this judge, leading the Grenfell inquiry, have you met him? I haven't

:29:53.:30:03.

met him, no. So what evidence do you have that he doesn't in your words

:30:04.:30:07.

understand human beings? Well, I am reflecting what people are telling

:30:08.:30:12.

me out there, that they as soon as his name was announced everybody

:30:13.:30:16.

looked up his credentials, they found a particular case he had been

:30:17.:30:21.

involved in, the very issue that people are most worried about, post

:30:22.:30:26.

Grenfell is they will be moved out of the borough somewhere else. This

:30:27.:30:30.

issue about social cleansing. It was insensitive to have chosen somebody

:30:31.:30:34.

with that on his record. Whether he made that decision according to the

:30:35.:30:38.

rules. It is one judgment in a long career, he may be able to defend

:30:39.:30:43.

what he did. You have said he doesn't understand human beings but

:30:44.:30:46.

you have told us you have never met him? It is nothing to do with

:30:47.:30:50.

meeting him. It is the system where people have to be friends in order

:30:51.:30:54.

to work together, judged by the evidence, judge by what people have

:30:55.:30:58.

done that, judge by merit and whether or not you can be friendly.

:30:59.:31:01.

What has he done wrong in his career? It is symbolic the issue he

:31:02.:31:07.

made a decision about, it is symbolic for everybody. I am

:31:08.:31:10.

reflecting the community who are been betrayed. You don't think in

:31:11.:31:15.

your often view you don't take the view he doesn't understand human

:31:16.:31:19.

beings. Personally I do. I do actually but I am reflecting what

:31:20.:31:22.

people are saying, the people who elected me, who have been badly

:31:23.:31:25.

betrayed by the authority, they are seeing it that way, they have been

:31:26.:31:31.

betrayed and now they see you know, they worst fear is this will be used

:31:32.:31:36.

top socially cleanse north Kensington. What is the evidence for

:31:37.:31:41.

that? About social cleansing? No, this will be used to do so. Whether

:31:42.:31:45.

or not there is ever, there is no trust in somebody who has been part

:31:46.:31:50.

of that process. He has been chosen by the Lord Chief Justice, not as

:31:51.:31:53.

the Prime Minister as some have said. He has a long ex perness of

:31:54.:32:00.

commercial contracts and disaster, both of which will be vital. It is a

:32:01.:32:05.

lot to do with overlapping commercial contract, he is a

:32:06.:32:10.

specialist in that area, what bit doesn't make his qualified and and

:32:11.:32:14.

doesn't he reflect the independence of the judiciary? Well, we certainly

:32:15.:32:18.

need somebody who can do the detail. This is a human disaster as much as

:32:19.:32:21.

anything else. We need somebody who, we saw in the meeting there, there

:32:22.:32:25.

is a lot of anger and people aren't trusting. . That would be true, we

:32:26.:32:30.

all understand the anger, of course, but that would be true whoever was

:32:31.:32:34.

chosen. Are you really after... Do you want someone to head up this

:32:35.:32:39.

inquiry that will give you a show trial rather than an independent

:32:40.:32:42.

inquiry. It is exactly the opposite. . Woe won't give us a show trial, is

:32:43.:32:47.

he? If there is no trust, people won't co-operate with him. A lot of

:32:48.:32:50.

people will need to co-operate with him. Some of the groups are not

:32:51.:32:56.

involved, they are protest groups who are not representing the

:32:57.:33:03.

victims, or the survivors, we have very little evidence that those who

:33:04.:33:06.

directly affected by this are saying they are not going to co-operate.

:33:07.:33:11.

Well, everybody who lives round there is a victim to some extent,

:33:12.:33:16.

they have all been affected, myself as well, I live three blocksia from

:33:17.:33:20.

it and a lot of the groups are very much involved in that community, not

:33:21.:33:24.

only the people who lived there who survived, but some of the campaign

:33:25.:33:28.

groups have been campaigning for years about social housing in area.

:33:29.:33:32.

What sort of person to you think should head up the inquiry is this

:33:33.:33:38.

If it has to be Martin, we need an advisory panel with representatives

:33:39.:33:42.

from different groups who can at least advise and feed in

:33:43.:33:46.

information, at least if we have no choice, we need at least that. But

:33:47.:33:50.

rather than him, what sort of person? I am not sure, are you

:33:51.:33:54.

saying he should remain but he needs to be assisted by a panel or he

:33:55.:34:00.

should be replaced? If we have no choice, then we should have an

:34:01.:34:03.

advisory panel to back it up. Something that people trust in. At

:34:04.:34:07.

the moment they don't trust the process, which is understandable,

:34:08.:34:11.

and his name was announced the same day as the Hillsborough disaster,

:34:12.:34:15.

the criminal investigation and so on, that after 28 year, this is what

:34:16.:34:19.

people, how people see it. They want, they don't trust the process s

:34:20.:34:22.

it won't work proppism it is not just what I think, it is what people

:34:23.:34:28.

who are directly involved thing. John McDonnell the Shadow Chancellor

:34:29.:34:32.

says people who died at Grenfell were murdered by political decision

:34:33.:34:35.

do you agree? That is a strong way of putting it. I know a lot of

:34:36.:34:40.

people feel like that. There is massive failure of political

:34:41.:34:43.

decision, I have seen that happening. But murder? That is an

:34:44.:34:48.

active verb. It means you intended to kill. So for Mr McDonnell to be

:34:49.:34:54.

right, these were political decisions taken intended to kill. I

:34:55.:34:57.

don't share his view on that particular issue, there has been a

:34:58.:35:02.

failure of care, for many, many years and a failure of investment

:35:03.:35:05.

for many year, as I have seen myself. But part of the problem has

:35:06.:35:11.

been investment. They had nine million spent on this block I was

:35:12.:35:12.

looking at it today, the other tower blocks round it have not been clad.

:35:13.:35:20.

Of course if they had gone on fire, the disaster would not have been on

:35:21.:35:25.

the same scale. Nine million helped to produce this. In indeed. The

:35:26.:35:30.

process of how that building was refurbished. It says it is to make

:35:31.:35:37.

it look better, half a mile down the road, the tower blocks have been

:35:38.:35:40.

clad, they were clad in mineral wool. I spent a day at a seminar by

:35:41.:35:48.

chance understanding, it is non-combustible. Who made that

:35:49.:35:54.

decision to use rain cladding rather than mineral wool. You were on the

:35:55.:36:01.

the board of who took that decision. The council had no say about the

:36:02.:36:05.

specification, we didn't have any involvement at all. It didn't come

:36:06.:36:09.

before you, because it has tenants on it too. The TMO does, The

:36:10.:36:16.

advisory committee to the TMO. There is the TMO. I was not there at the

:36:17.:36:21.

time. As far as I understand a sub group decided or reviewed the

:36:22.:36:25.

specifications of that. The housing and property committee is part of

:36:26.:36:30.

the council. Obviously you a say, but whether or not, we don't have

:36:31.:36:34.

any say at all over specification, I want to say somebody because I have

:36:35.:36:41.

been accused of... That because my predecessor said I

:36:42.:36:51.

there is no foundation for that allegation. I thank you for clearing

:36:52.:36:54.

that up. Thank you for joining us too.

:36:55.:37:12.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:37:13.:37:13.

A long way to go, but small signs of an economic improvement.

:37:14.:37:18.

So how does the Scottish Government ensure progress is maintained?

:37:19.:37:27.

And we hear from an organisation which hopes to do for

:37:28.:37:29.

Scottish Labour what Momentum has done for Jeremy Corbyn.

:37:30.:37:35.

There was relief all round this week as new figures showed the Scottish

:37:36.:37:39.

economy has not fallen into recession - in fact,

:37:40.:37:41.

it grew by 0.8% in the first quarter of this year,

:37:42.:37:43.

compared to growth of only 0.2% across the UK as a whole.

:37:44.:37:47.

Although growth across the UK had been stronger on an annual basis,

:37:48.:37:51.

some of the growth seems down to recovery in the oil and gas

:37:52.:37:54.

industry, which has been hammered by collapsing oil prices.

:37:55.:37:57.

But the question still remains: are Scotland's problems more

:37:58.:37:59.

Last week the former First Minister, Alex Salmond, called

:38:00.:38:04.

opposition politicians, economists, the media in general

:38:05.:38:06.

and this programme in particular 'merchants of doom' for our coverage

:38:07.:38:11.

So should we turn into dealers in delight?

:38:12.:38:14.

Or perhaps pay close attention to Mr Salmond's injunction not

:38:15.:38:17.

to take one set of figures too seriously - something we too

:38:18.:38:20.

pointed out, incidentally, in our coverage last week.

:38:21.:38:23.

Well, in a moment we'll speak to the Economy Minister Keith Brown.

:38:24.:38:30.

I spoke a little earlier to David Johnston, a digital entrepreneur,

:38:31.:38:37.

and to David Bell, an economist from Stirling University. Both of them

:38:38.:38:42.

featured in our report last week. You are both under strict

:38:43.:38:44.

instructions to have your best have the clappy demeanour on. These

:38:45.:38:51.

figures this week were pretty good, would they? I think they were. I

:38:52.:38:57.

think it is a reason to be glad about Scotland's economic

:38:58.:39:00.

performance. The trend had been, and I think this is what the forecasters

:39:01.:39:04.

have been looking at, relatively negative, but in the last quarter

:39:05.:39:08.

things have picked up a lot. Particularly in manufacturing. I

:39:09.:39:15.

guess the real issue here is, is that nothing to be explained? The

:39:16.:39:20.

Scottish Government's statisticians say that 60% of the relative

:39:21.:39:24.

underperformance of the Scottish economy over recent months has been

:39:25.:39:32.

due to the decline in oil and gas. But that leaves 40% to be explained.

:39:33.:39:38.

Is your view that there is something else to be explained? I think there

:39:39.:39:46.

are a political uncertainties around, but it's almost impossible

:39:47.:39:48.

to quantify what effects these might have. Part of the success of the

:39:49.:39:57.

rest of the UK, maybe, has been that it has been more successful in

:39:58.:40:03.

setting up complex value chains around the manufacturing sector cars

:40:04.:40:09.

and so on. Scotland doesn't quite have the critical mass around that.

:40:10.:40:12.

But I British are the Scottish Government is aware of this issue

:40:13.:40:16.

and is trying to do it, for example, in the food and drink industry,

:40:17.:40:19.

which is very important for our economy. What could they do? Is

:40:20.:40:26.

there a need for them to address this in the short term? Alex Salmond

:40:27.:40:31.

takes the view that because of the way the national accounts account

:40:32.:40:37.

for oil and gas, in other words that will production goes in the UK

:40:38.:40:40.

accounts, and when we talk about oil and gas in Scotland, it's only the

:40:41.:40:45.

economic activity surrounding it. There is nothing to explain, the

:40:46.:40:52.

underperformance is entirely under accounted for that. Even taking the

:40:53.:41:02.

employment and other activity, that is it in itself quite considerable.

:41:03.:41:05.

The wages of the people working in the industry and the activity around

:41:06.:41:10.

different parts of the country. It is bound to have a multiplier effect

:41:11.:41:18.

on other sectors of the Scottish economy, so I think oil and gas

:41:19.:41:23.

clearly is a pretty big explanation of where we have got to. It then

:41:24.:41:30.

begs the question, is there a need for the Scottish Government to be

:41:31.:41:33.

thinking of doing something in addition to what it was trying to do

:41:34.:41:39.

anyway, indeed can it do anything? I think it can do stuff, but that kind

:41:40.:41:46.

of stuff doesn't hit the headlines all that much. Also it's on a slow

:41:47.:41:53.

burner. The long-term performance of the Scottish economy has been pretty

:41:54.:41:58.

much in line with the rest of the UK, and we know the UK has a number

:41:59.:42:04.

of weaknesses in comparison with other developed countries.

:42:05.:42:07.

Particularly around issues like skills, but ownership, access to

:42:08.:42:17.

finance. -- entrepreneurship. The Scottish Government can do its own

:42:18.:42:21.

bid to a certain extent to address these issues, I think it is trying

:42:22.:42:24.

to do so, but a lot of that doesn't make the headlines. David Johnston,

:42:25.:42:30.

presumably you welcomed the figures we saw this week, although we should

:42:31.:42:36.

stress it is just one set of figures. The underlying growth, if

:42:37.:42:42.

you analyse the growth rate over the past year, Scotland is still lagging

:42:43.:42:46.

behind the rest of the UK. Do you think something other than the

:42:47.:42:54.

obvious effects are to blame? David mentioned small businesses getting

:42:55.:42:57.

access to finance. That's something the government could help with. It

:42:58.:43:02.

will definitely help us sort of grow the business and what we are trying

:43:03.:43:06.

to do, not just in the UK but we are looking further afield now to North

:43:07.:43:10.

America. We are finding that the services we provide in the states,

:43:11.:43:18.

we have the talent here and... You help people make websites?

:43:19.:43:22.

Basically, digital strategy all the way through to the design and build

:43:23.:43:27.

up of websites. Was held in July from the government you feel you're

:43:28.:43:32.

not getting? -- what helped do you feel you're not getting? Is a lot

:43:33.:43:38.

the private sector can do as well. One of the things we are a big

:43:39.:43:41.

proponent of this getting young people into digital at an early age.

:43:42.:43:47.

It's not just about working in our sector, but Digital is a great

:43:48.:43:50.

enabler for a lot of the difference work streams. Life sciences,

:43:51.:43:56.

renewable energy. We are members of the body called us like a body you

:43:57.:44:02.

read this and our industry. What can the government do that would help

:44:03.:44:07.

you? We spoke about access to finance. We are trying to develop a

:44:08.:44:12.

number of products that we think will help the business scale and

:44:13.:44:14.

grow. What we find is that there doesn't seem to be these sort of

:44:15.:44:20.

pots of money that we can access to do that. You were talking about

:44:21.:44:27.

loans? Loans or in some shape or form, something to help stimulate

:44:28.:44:32.

what we are trying to do. In places like California, I imagine someone

:44:33.:44:36.

might yourself would find a range of capital funds falling all over you.

:44:37.:44:42.

Yes, digital goals. We had a team member go to San Francisco, and it

:44:43.:44:45.

is a different world there in terms of people's... The likelihood of

:44:46.:44:52.

actually getting access to funds to do these things, to create these

:44:53.:44:58.

products. And actually stimulates the economy. Is there a case for...

:44:59.:45:05.

Labour this week have proposed ?20 billion Scottish investment. I know

:45:06.:45:09.

there is a Scottish investment bank already, but it doesn't seem to be

:45:10.:45:14.

anything like that size. Could that be a game changer? Is there a case

:45:15.:45:20.

for doing something pretty bowls? I am all for both strategies, but you

:45:21.:45:26.

have to be careful, because you run into difficulties of picking

:45:27.:45:32.

winners. We know the Scottish economy has some great companies

:45:33.:45:38.

that are innovative, but developing products which they can sell

:45:39.:45:43.

internationally. And it's important to support these. It's also

:45:44.:45:46.

important to realise that we have a long tail of companies that are less

:45:47.:45:53.

productive, and need some kind of stimulus to get them to innovate, to

:45:54.:45:59.

get them to take on more skilled workers. The question of how you use

:46:00.:46:03.

your finance, the strategy of doing that has to be fought through --

:46:04.:46:09.

thought through very carefully. The good kicking you are referring to,

:46:10.:46:15.

how could that be administered? You can do it passively by improving

:46:16.:46:22.

skills. Especially around the technical. College based, perhaps.

:46:23.:46:32.

That helps. All companies, if the quality of the Labour they are

:46:33.:46:37.

receiving is improved. Then the question is how do you particularly

:46:38.:46:45.

add value to the once you are instilling so well? I don't know, it

:46:46.:46:48.

might be that we need a more competitive environment. It is clear

:46:49.:46:55.

that some of our companies do very well in a competitive environment,

:46:56.:47:01.

but others just seem to roll along. You talked in the film we did last

:47:02.:47:08.

week about your concerns about not getting people equipped with the

:47:09.:47:13.

skills from, coming from university to companies like yours. What did

:47:14.:47:18.

you mean by that? They don't have specific computer skills? Or more

:47:19.:47:21.

generally they're not very literate and numerate? The skills we are

:47:22.:47:27.

looking for is far more than just literacy and numeracy. It is

:47:28.:47:31.

specific skill sets around developers, people who can do the

:47:32.:47:36.

actual coding of websites. You are not getting that? When we recruit,

:47:37.:47:44.

it seems to be, certainly in certain roles, we do struggle to find these

:47:45.:47:48.

people. That might not just be... We might not be an attractive company

:47:49.:47:52.

to work for, so there is end that we can do. I think it has to start a

:47:53.:47:56.

lot earlier than University, at schools. When I said earlier about

:47:57.:48:02.

digital skills being such an enabler, I think it has to start

:48:03.:48:10.

writing the beginning. Kids? Mobile phones, that's already happening.

:48:11.:48:15.

You hear the stories about kids touching papers and wondering why

:48:16.:48:20.

they're not interactive! You both maintain smiles on your face

:48:21.:48:21.

throughout, thank you very much. Well, I'm joined now by

:48:22.:48:24.

the Economy Secretary, Keith Brown. On the issue of whether there is

:48:25.:48:31.

something to be explained other than the obvious decline in oil and gas,

:48:32.:48:36.

what is your view? This is very good news, not just because of the four

:48:37.:48:42.

times the rate of the UK growth, but also productivity has increased. A

:48:43.:48:44.

record number of businesses in Scotland now. It's baffling

:48:45.:48:49.

performance once again for FDI in Scotland. On the negative side,

:48:50.:48:53.

there are two governments involved in this economy. Look what the UK

:48:54.:48:57.

Government is doing, nearly 3% inflation. ?100 billion for every

:48:58.:49:00.

year they have been in power in doubt. Ringing in new taxes like the

:49:01.:49:06.

apprenticeship levy. Taxes proposed for self-employed people. You have

:49:07.:49:09.

to get the two governments working together. It would be very useful to

:49:10.:49:13.

have a debate, and to get the UK Government to come out and say some

:49:14.:49:18.

of the things they should be doing in the Scottish economy. Get behind

:49:19.:49:22.

Scottish businesses. There is something to explain, but why should

:49:23.:49:27.

it be the UK Government's fault? The UK Government policies apply in

:49:28.:49:31.

England and Wales as well. Happiness explain a relative underperformance

:49:32.:49:35.

by the Scottish economy? I don't they get is a relative

:49:36.:49:39.

underperformance. Four times the rate of growth in Scotland's.

:49:40.:49:45.

Unemployment is lower in Scotland than it is in the rest of the UK.

:49:46.:49:56.

And things we keep Government could do Scottish economy, and the never

:49:57.:49:59.

challenged on these things, they are not made to come and justify these

:50:00.:50:03.

things. Perhaps it would be a good idea to do that everyone thanks

:50:04.:50:06.

these figures are really good this week. The Scottish economy as board

:50:07.:50:14.

and the UK economy has grown by more than 2%, so clearly there is an ICQ,

:50:15.:50:19.

and what I am asking is why should the UK Government policies explain

:50:20.:50:23.

that gap, which is largely oil and gas but not entirely, when their

:50:24.:50:30.

policies apply in England as well? I think you just heard from David Bell

:50:31.:50:34.

and others about their disability impact of the downtime and Scott is

:50:35.:50:39.

in gas in Scotland, and also the way these figures are recounted in

:50:40.:50:43.

Scotland. But you're right, we have to drive up the number of companies

:50:44.:50:46.

that export in Scotland. We have also had about some of the

:50:47.:50:50.

challenges in terms of skills, is basic computer skills. We have to do

:50:51.:50:55.

more of those things and get those things right, and also to continue

:50:56.:50:58.

to drive productivity. We have increased it by 74% by last ten

:50:59.:51:03.

years. That's all it takes is up to the level of the UK. We have to

:51:04.:51:08.

start competing by set with France and Germany. A lot of work still

:51:09.:51:12.

today. Some your opponents have been saying this morning, my God, they

:51:13.:51:18.

are celebrating because they are not in reassessing, but there is a much

:51:19.:51:24.

bigger challenge you. Oil and gas... We should point out that we are

:51:25.:51:30.

talking about the economic activity that surrounds the industry of oil

:51:31.:51:34.

and gas. That might never recover. I don't think that is the case. I

:51:35.:51:40.

mean, to the levels it was before. I am not celebrating. These are good,

:51:41.:51:45.

encouraging figures. But we have seen salivating by the opposition

:51:46.:51:51.

parties trying to talk up things before these businesses commit.

:51:52.:51:54.

Businesses out to asset to the back teeth of the Scottish economy being

:51:55.:51:57.

talked down by the Tories and Labour. There is huge interest in

:51:58.:52:03.

tapping into their expertise in Scotland. I was in Kazakhstan and

:52:04.:52:07.

there are more opportunities are you suggesting that oil and gas activity

:52:08.:52:12.

could get back to the level it was at before the collapse? I think

:52:13.:52:19.

there is a huge future for oil and gas. There are some ice expertise in

:52:20.:52:23.

Scotland. I was in Abu Dhabi, and they have a huge amount of... What I

:52:24.:52:32.

find most have 80 Scottish companies when, because they know that there

:52:33.:52:37.

are tenets of markets. They are very switched on to looking at these

:52:38.:52:40.

other markets and we want to encourage that. But that is not

:52:41.:52:43.

showing up in the figures yet? We have seen some improvement, we have

:52:44.:52:49.

seen a 3.4% increase in terms of productivity don't oil and gas, and

:52:50.:52:54.

we are starting to see that. Perhaps attitudes it is companies been very

:52:55.:52:57.

forward looking and looking at overseas markets. Scotland need

:52:58.:53:03.

something to fill an. I remember when SNP first came to power, all

:53:04.:53:08.

the talk was about renewables. I note this creates jobs, because when

:53:09.:53:11.

time bound and things like that, what was meant was that Scotland

:53:12.:53:19.

could develop a new Andy Street, it could be manufacturing, expertise.

:53:20.:53:22.

It was the big thing that was going to drive the Scottish economy. It

:53:23.:53:26.

hasn't really happened, has it? Can you point to any impact? I can point

:53:27.:53:32.

to the impact of the UK Government in the Scottish economy. People will

:53:33.:53:38.

tell you they have had the legs sticking out from underneath them by

:53:39.:53:42.

the UK Government's failure to support carbon capture and also

:53:43.:53:46.

because of the subsidy programme that was there before. I thought

:53:47.:53:50.

that subsidy programme was for onshore? Offshore renewables was

:53:51.:53:56.

going to be the big thing, and in fact there are no huge offshore wind

:53:57.:54:03.

turbine development in England's, but have anything in Scotland. It

:54:04.:54:06.

has timed out to be the opposite of what we were told. There are very

:54:07.:54:09.

exciting developments to beat coming. We have seen carbon capture

:54:10.:54:19.

possibilities that have been delayed or cancelled, the point I'm trying

:54:20.:54:22.

to make is that what we have in Scotland is a Government, if you

:54:23.:54:28.

look at growth and employment, the number of businesses with FDI. Look

:54:29.:54:32.

at what the duty is not doing. Look at the lack of scrutiny for the UK

:54:33.:54:36.

is not doing. When is the last time you had someone from the UK

:54:37.:54:39.

Government and listed you're talking about the economy in Scotland. You

:54:40.:54:43.

should do that. We are getting behind businesses in Scotland.

:54:44.:54:50.

Ministers are held to account over the economy. Do you think that you

:54:51.:54:55.

need to... What you are saying... It is fine? You mentioned encouraging

:54:56.:55:04.

exporters, but you need to take any bold new initiatives? For example,

:55:05.:55:08.

Scottish Labour over the last few days said, why don't we have a ?20

:55:09.:55:12.

billion Scottish investment back. I know there is one already, but

:55:13.:55:17.

nothing like that scale. We have asked a number of times, because

:55:18.:55:21.

they had to get the borrowing consent of the UK Government, that

:55:22.:55:26.

is read the rules work. We asked the Scottish futures trust to do exactly

:55:27.:55:31.

that, in the way that other countries can support

:55:32.:55:33.

infrastructure, takes bets on some really innovative companies and

:55:34.:55:36.

support them at that bold measure. We don't have ?20 million, I wish

:55:37.:55:40.

that dead. We're stuck with the Tories, which the Labour Party is

:55:41.:55:47.

happy to support in this regard. In the meantime, we have to concentrate

:55:48.:55:51.

on doubling the number of FDI staff we have in Europe... Your message to

:55:52.:55:56.

Labour is that you would do the investment back if Labour could find

:55:57.:56:01.

the money? If they supported our cars. I don't figure has been a

:56:02.:56:05.

Labour Government oratorio Government... One UIQ, the other

:56:06.:56:11.

thing that we haven't seen from the Scottish Government the SNP idiot

:56:12.:56:16.

economic plans for independence. All day, the referendum might be kicked

:56:17.:56:22.

into the long grass in the mean time. I view planning soon to come

:56:23.:56:30.

out with something specific? We will come out when they think the time is

:56:31.:56:34.

right. As you have just said, we will not be having a referendum

:56:35.:56:38.

until Brexit is clear. That is the right way to do these things. I

:56:39.:56:44.

didn't see any other sparkling on prior to basic uneven Brexit. We

:56:45.:56:53.

will work on that. We will also provide... When? Before the last

:56:54.:57:00.

referendum. In the meantime, we will get on with their business are

:57:01.:57:04.

supporting businesses in Scotland. But you can't give us a date or even

:57:05.:57:08.

a year when we will see their support? We'll have to see the

:57:09.:57:14.

referendum is. We will give a detailed perspective of what we

:57:15.:57:15.

intend. Thank you. The Momentum movement

:57:16.:57:18.

certainly made an impact in the last general election -

:57:19.:57:20.

helping to push Jeremy Corbyn closer towards the winning line than many

:57:21.:57:22.

had thought possible. But while the group have firmly

:57:23.:57:25.

established themselves on the political map down south,

:57:26.:57:27.

their role here is taken by the Momentum grew out of Jeremy Corbyn's

:57:28.:57:44.

2015 election campaign and it stated aim is to get Labour into

:57:45.:57:49.

Government. It claims to have a campaigning network over 23,000

:57:50.:57:53.

members, and 200,000 supporters. And it is taking some of the credit for

:57:54.:57:56.

Labour's performance in a general election. I manifest offer something

:57:57.:58:04.

very, very different. Like carbon, they are most definitely left of

:58:05.:58:10.

centre, in favour of we disappeared in wealth, pitting the planet before

:58:11.:58:16.

corporate interest, and renationalisation public services.

:58:17.:58:17.

This seems appealing to younger voters, with a slight social media

:58:18.:58:25.

and door-to-door campaign. My name is Elena from the Labour Party.

:58:26.:58:30.

Momentum also want to transform Labour into a more modern party.

:58:31.:58:35.

That has worried some Labour MPs. They feel rules could be changed to

:58:36.:58:40.

see those considered off message face reselection. But they grip us

:58:41.:58:47.

Finder insist they are for all. And the general election campaign, we

:58:48.:58:54.

campaign for a Labour candidates and respective of registered in the past

:58:55.:58:58.

on Jeremy Corbyn. We helped win seats for candidates supported

:58:59.:59:03.

progress just as hard as we helped when teesra candidates who had

:59:04.:59:13.

always supported us. That is the way we are going to carry on. There is

:59:14.:59:17.

no equivalent movement in Scotland. Here the Campaign for Socialism

:59:18.:59:24.

takes that role. They did against Kezia Dugdale for Scottish Labour

:59:25.:59:29.

leader, but Kezia one. leader, but Kezia one.

:59:30.:59:40.

# Oh, Jeremy Corbyn # Can then emulate the success not

:59:41.:59:41.

of the border? Well, earlier I spoke

:59:42.:59:42.

to the chair of Campiagn Let's start with Labour as a

:59:43.:59:55.

movement. Down south, they became to be the biggest mass movement party

:59:56.:59:58.

in Western Europe. There has not been a sunlight up search in the

:59:59.:00:04.

party here. I figure has been an increase in membership. It has not

:00:05.:00:09.

been as high as across England and Wales, but it certainly have seen

:00:10.:00:13.

people get involved. Presumably, you would like to ramp that up? I think

:00:14.:00:18.

there is much more we can do to get people involved in a genuine

:00:19.:00:23.

movement. What needs to happen up here for that to happen? Because the

:00:24.:00:30.

carbon effect in England, arguably, I'm interested in whether you agree,

:00:31.:00:34.

many people are saying that Labour's unexpectedly good result in Scotland

:00:35.:00:40.

was largely to do with the Corbyn effect. I think that is largely

:00:41.:00:46.

true. There was a huge difference in England and Wales, a huge surge down

:00:47.:00:52.

there. There was only maybe two or 3% up here. I think we should have

:00:53.:00:57.

been far more focused on Corbyn and a manifesto that he represents, and

:00:58.:01:00.

they would have seen more games are paid if we had done that. What about

:01:01.:01:05.

the Labour leadership up here? Are you fans of them? They are pretty

:01:06.:01:10.

hostile to Jeremy Corbyn. I don't think there is any secret that Kezia

:01:11.:01:16.

Dugdale voted for John Smith in the last leadership election. I don't

:01:17.:01:18.

necessarily think it's about leadership are pure. It's about the

:01:19.:01:23.

policies and a membership that the one to have. I figure has been

:01:24.:01:28.

lessons learned. There was an e-mail from Kezia Dugdale to the full

:01:29.:01:33.

membership basically saying that we want to campaign on the For The Many

:01:34.:01:42.

manifesto. Whatever the policy lunches is industrial strategy,

:01:43.:01:46.

soggy bobby creating good jobs across the economy... What Labour up

:01:47.:02:00.

you haven't done... There is no Jezza effect in the medicine has

:02:01.:02:06.

been an angling. Kezia Dugdale isn't turning up at Rock festivals and

:02:07.:02:12.

addressing everyone and having centres eyes and people cheering

:02:13.:02:18.

hard. That is a difference. No. But I think Jeremy Corbyn has captured

:02:19.:02:21.

something and represent something. It is not about him, while the ad

:02:22.:02:31.

champ team -- chanting his name. We need something better. A real

:02:32.:02:33.

alternative and a different vision for how this country should be run

:02:34.:02:40.

and organise. Do you take the aim of your talking about as an acceptance

:02:41.:02:43.

from the leadership that they had to change? I can't speak for them, but

:02:44.:02:47.

it certainly an indication that the party wants to get behind the

:02:48.:02:51.

manifesto policies and devising, and sat to build on that, because that

:02:52.:02:57.

is what got us against in the general election. I don't think

:02:58.:03:00.

there is many people dispute that. The upsurge in interest in politics

:03:01.:03:05.

in young people that these with Jeremy Corbyn, in Scotland tended to

:03:06.:03:09.

happen for the SNP. It was the Yes campaign that mobilised thousands of

:03:10.:03:13.

people. The SNP put on 100,000 new members. Do you think Labour...

:03:14.:03:21.

Really, Labour dead lows, but there's anything you can do to when

:03:22.:03:28.

over those people. Yes. I think a quarter are people who voted yes in

:03:29.:03:31.

the referendum voted Labour this time, and I think the reason so many

:03:32.:03:36.

people went to the SNP last year signed, because it was for a better

:03:37.:03:40.

society. They put a campaign for others and for a different country

:03:41.:03:45.

and how great would be better for. I think what they were offering was a

:03:46.:03:48.

dead-end and wouldn't have actually provided they change, and I think

:03:49.:03:52.

what the Labour Party is putting across is actually about genuine

:03:53.:03:58.

change, giving workers more control and a fairer society. If the Prozac,

:03:59.:04:03.

we will begin to when. Why do you think it was the SNP who were able

:04:04.:04:07.

to communicate to young people and not to Labour Party? At that time, I

:04:08.:04:11.

think the better together campaign was about what young people couldn't

:04:12.:04:19.

have, about things that would be different. I think, this time round

:04:20.:04:24.

Labour is now thinking about big ideas, about changing things and

:04:25.:04:28.

about creating for the many, not if you. I think that is a really clear,

:04:29.:04:32.

simple message about what Labour stands for. We didn't have that

:04:33.:04:40.

before. You effectively saying, we think independence is a dead end?

:04:41.:04:45.

Are you also saying basically that it's just not very interesting? We

:04:46.:04:50.

have different things to talk about? I think that is correct. There are

:04:51.:04:54.

people in the Labour Party who supported yes, the majority

:04:55.:04:57.

supported no. I think we can welcome all opinions on this issue. If we

:04:58.:05:03.

want to see real change, we need to talk about the financial system, the

:05:04.:05:06.

economy, taxation, things that whether we like it or not organised

:05:07.:05:11.

at a UK level. With Jeremy Corbyn and Labour, we have a real wave of

:05:12.:05:17.

change. Give me one way you would like the Scottish Labour leadership

:05:18.:05:21.

to change to attempt to get the kind of momentum that Labour in England

:05:22.:05:26.

have seemed to have? I don't think there is one thing. We have already

:05:27.:05:32.

talked about them getting behind the policy, bringing that Morse before,

:05:33.:05:37.

rather than talking about being anti-independence and the SNP.

:05:38.:05:40.

Fizzing across a positive vision is a really good move and I would

:05:41.:05:41.

encourage more of that. Thank you. And time now for a look

:05:42.:05:48.

at the Week Ahead. I'm joined by freelance

:05:49.:05:54.

journalist and columnist And she's alongside former

:05:55.:05:56.

Scottish Conservative MP and former chair of the Scottish Conservatives,

:05:57.:05:59.

Raymond Robertson. are you convinced by Keith Brown's

:06:00.:06:12.

lying on the economy? That was an interesting interview there he

:06:13.:06:14.

struggled to get to grips with what is actually happening in the

:06:15.:06:18.

Scottish economy. He managed to get through almost ten minutes without

:06:19.:06:22.

mentioning the referendum, which is one of the biggest problems, that is

:06:23.:06:26.

causing instability for business. It's difficult to find any evidence.

:06:27.:06:31.

No, it's not. It's causing instability, uncertainty. These are

:06:32.:06:36.

two things businesses don't want or need. He was going to come and

:06:37.:06:40.

invest in Scotland where the constitutional future is all the

:06:41.:06:45.

First Minister is assessing about? They're not interested in helping

:06:46.:06:50.

Scottish business. Lots of people, according to the figures for inward

:06:51.:06:55.

investment. Which are very high. I don't know which figures you are

:06:56.:07:02.

referring to. He is having to double the number of operatives abroad

:07:03.:07:05.

which doesn't really augur well for inward investment, it is having to

:07:06.:07:10.

do that. The basic problem of the Scottish economy is uncertainty and

:07:11.:07:14.

instability. That has been caused by a First Minister he was of Sastre by

:07:15.:07:19.

a referendum. Wanted you make of that? I think it's right that keep

:07:20.:07:23.

down didn't talk about independence when you are asking questions about

:07:24.:07:28.

the economy. He was remaining on topic. The main uncertainty that's

:07:29.:07:33.

been caused throughout the UK is the uncertainty presented by Brexit. We

:07:34.:07:37.

are trying to mitigate against the damage that's going to cause. Brexit

:07:38.:07:42.

is happening across the UK, so can't explain the specifics to Scotland.

:07:43.:07:47.

Ed Kassig when why Scotland is doing better. Is it something the Scottish

:07:48.:07:52.

Government is doing? -- it can't explain why. If the opposite result

:07:53.:07:57.

had come out and the Scottish Government was underperforming

:07:58.:08:01.

compared to the rest of the UK, the Scottish Government would have been

:08:02.:08:04.

blamed unfairly. It's also not very fair to say that it's all down to

:08:05.:08:12.

what they're doing. Connecting our first night in with our second item,

:08:13.:08:16.

is the SNP in danger of being outmanoeuvred by Labour? Labour in

:08:17.:08:21.

Scotland are coming up with these bold new ideas, let's have a ?20

:08:22.:08:27.

billion investment and so on. The SNP is starting to look a bit like

:08:28.:08:31.

the people you have been in power for ten years, and don't really have

:08:32.:08:36.

much new to say. I don't think they're being outmanoeuvred by

:08:37.:08:39.

Scottish Labour, I think we are hearing about the idea of Scottish

:08:40.:08:41.

Labour getting behind Jeremy Corbyn's agenda. But there isn't an

:08:42.:08:46.

individual within Scottish Labour around whom there is any momentum.

:08:47.:08:52.

As long as Labour get the moment, it's bad news for the SNP. I haven't

:08:53.:08:57.

got enough momentum. They didn't manage to become the government in

:08:58.:09:02.

the last General Election. Jeremy Corbyn might talk about being a

:09:03.:09:06.

government in waiting but it is just talk. To you think there is... You

:09:07.:09:10.

go to tell me there is a marvellous future for the Conservative party in

:09:11.:09:18.

Scotland. Absolutely. If you look at the number of seats are vulnerable,

:09:19.:09:26.

it is more to Labour. The arithmetic might look like that, but if you had

:09:27.:09:30.

to ask anyone which party in Scotland has momentum, used that

:09:31.:09:37.

phrase, it would be the Scottish Conservatives. That is obvious.

:09:38.:09:41.

There's no doubt the Jeremy Corbyn has breathed new life into the

:09:42.:09:44.

Labour Party in Scotland, but the question is what happened at the

:09:45.:09:48.

General Election a dead cat bounce, with something more deep and

:09:49.:09:56.

fundamental? Talking of dead cats and bouncing, can Theresa May last

:09:57.:10:04.

very long? As Prime Minister and leader of the Conservative party.

:10:05.:10:09.

She is the Prime Minister and a leader of the Conservative party.

:10:10.:10:13.

Let's see. I don't think anyone knows. She can't be the

:10:14.:10:17.

Conservatives into another election. Absolutely. Let's say you were

:10:18.:10:23.

taking your former role as chair of the Conservative party. You're asked

:10:24.:10:31.

for advice, what would you say? Try and stay in power as long as

:10:32.:10:35.

possible? My advice would be to do what she said to the 1922 committee

:10:36.:10:40.

after the election, but she got the party into this mess and she has to

:10:41.:10:43.

get us out. I think she has to be given time to get as out of the

:10:44.:10:49.

mess. What would you do? I think it's unfair to say she got us into

:10:50.:10:53.

this mess because she was not in -- not in favour of Brexit. She did

:10:54.:10:57.

call the General Election, obviously a tactical error, but in answer to

:10:58.:11:02.

the question of whether she will remain as Prime Minister, the only

:11:03.:11:05.

reason she may continue for longer than expected is because of the

:11:06.:11:07.

clownish nature of the other candidates that seem to be eyeing

:11:08.:11:13.

her job. Do you think what they will do is let her do the tough stuff,

:11:14.:11:20.

exits? David Cameron resigned, he said on his way out of Downing

:11:21.:11:27.

Street, they can do this. She said she got us into this mess, and she

:11:28.:11:31.

did. I think she have to lead us out of it. What happens one or two years

:11:32.:11:36.

down the road, I don't know yet. To think she will take the Conservative

:11:37.:11:40.

party into a second General Election? Candidly, I don't. We are

:11:41.:11:46.

going into the summer, everything is becoming a bit silly season, but we

:11:47.:11:49.

still don't have the faintest idea what Brexit means other than Brexit,

:11:50.:11:55.

or what the UK Government's plan is in terms of what it once... I think

:11:56.:12:01.

the reason there isn't a plan is because they can make up for the

:12:02.:12:05.

plans they want. The you're holding the cards. We have heard that Donald

:12:06.:12:10.

Trump is going to do a very big deal with the UK. None of that can happen

:12:11.:12:16.

until March 2019. All this talk is completely meaningless. We need to

:12:17.:12:20.

wait and see what we are given. We're not clear on what the British

:12:21.:12:25.

government intends to negotiate. It almost doesn't matter. They are not

:12:26.:12:29.

necessarily going to get it. They won't tell us what they want because

:12:30.:12:32.

they will have egg on their face when they don't get it. I was

:12:33.:12:36.

usually encouraged about what President Trump was saying, that

:12:37.:12:44.

Howard next predecessor would be at the front of the queue. And that he

:12:45.:12:49.

was ready to proceed, to do a full copper hands of trade deal with the

:12:50.:12:54.

United Kingdom. -- copper hands of deal. You think it can turn into

:12:55.:13:02.

something that is beneficial? The British people have spoken. I accept

:13:03.:13:07.

the result of the referendum. Are all these discussions, would you go

:13:08.:13:11.

for it staying in the single market with a customs union? Although I

:13:12.:13:15.

voted remain, I think the British people voted to leave the EU and

:13:16.:13:21.

that's what we have to do. Still leave the customs union, single

:13:22.:13:24.

market? I think that's what the British people voted for. You asked

:13:25.:13:29.

the British people if they wanted to stay in the customs union, most

:13:30.:13:32.

would say what is the customs union? The campaign did mean when

:13:33.:13:35.

permission about what I was voting for. Obviously we have to leave

:13:36.:13:39.

because that was the vote, but it would be wrong to conclude from that

:13:40.:13:45.

referendum on what was going through anyone's heads when they cast the

:13:46.:13:46.

votes. I'll be back at the

:13:47.:13:47.

same time next week.

:13:48.:13:52.

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew asks Owen Paterson whether remainers are taking advantage of Theresa May's weakness to scupper Brexit, asks Caroline Flint if Labour MPs should be worried about Jeremy Corbyn strengthening his grip on the Labour Party and discusses the Grenfell Tower fire disaster with newly-elected Labour MP for Kensington Emma Dent Coad. The political panel consists of Julia Hartley-Brewer, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.