02/07/2017 Sunday Politics Scotland


02/07/2017

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Transcript


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:41.

Her position may be safe for the time-being.

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But what about Theresa May's policies?

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As ministers drops hints about easing the public sector pay

:00:47.:00:49.

cap, is the Conservative Party undergoing a rebrand?

:00:50.:00:53.

Jeremy Corbyn takes to the streets to call for an end to austerity.

:00:54.:00:56.

But with his party's divisions on Brexit thrust into the open

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is his post-election honeymoon coming to an end?

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And, with Brexit talks under way, we know there's plenty at stake

:01:06.:01:10.

for Britain, as it negotiates a new relationship.

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But what's at stake for the remaining EU countries?

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We speak to a leading European politician.

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With the economy here described as being in a "precarious position",

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I'll be asking the three main political parties who's to blame,

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And, on the eve of Wimbledon, I'm joined by the three top seats

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of political commentary, Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott

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They'll be serving up aces throughout the programme.

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Is the Government going to change its policy on public sector pay?

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for public sector workers would remain in place

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until 2020, saving up to ?5 billion a year by then.

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Earlier this week there were rumblings that the policy

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would be reviewed, before the Treasury weighed in to suggest

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The new Environment Secretary, Michael Gove, was asked about it

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on the Andrew Marr show earlier today.

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I was Education Secretary and I know the schoolteachers pay review body

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Not a poodle but they work underneath the overall strategy

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set by the Chancellor, set by the government.

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They take account of that, but they also take account

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of other questions as well, including the number of people

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who are entering the profession, whether we need to have an increase

:02:38.:02:40.

in pay in order to ensure we get the best people in the profession.

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These pay review bodies have been set up in order to ensure we can

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have authoritative advice on what is required in order

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to ensure the public services on which we rely are effectively

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staffed and the people within them are effectively supported.

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I think we should respect the integrity of that process.

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I'm not an individual, I am a member of the government,

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Michael Gove. Two U-turns in one day, maybe going for the hat-trick

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this week. It sounds they are thinking of ways of loosening up the

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pay freeze but Mr Hammond doesn't want it to come out until the autumn

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budget. That is absolutely right. My understanding is the deal is already

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done. We've reported this week that 20 quite senior Tory MPs went to see

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the new chief of staff on Wednesday, to make it very clear indeed they

:03:30.:03:34.

would be voting for a budget that allowed the public sector pay freeze

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to continue. Fine, we're going to do this, we're going to give fresh

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advice to the pay review bodies that there remit has been expanded but we

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cannot do it today because it's a victory for comrades Jeremy Corbyn

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if we do. There we see, in a sense, the weakness of ten Downing St. They

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can't direct this policy themselves. They are overruled by Mr Hammond

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from Mr 11, and it only takes about 20 Tory MPs to say, hey, this is

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what we want and at the very least the government has to listen to them

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very seriously. They have to listen to the man they have to act, because

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very seriously. They have to listen that is the fragility of the new

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House of Commons. We saw it last week on another issue. If you have

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20 people saying hey has got to rise in the public sector, beyond the

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cap, pay will rise in the public sector beyond the cap, because they

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won't be up to get it through the House of Commons. I think there are

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other issues involved beyond the numerical situation in the Commons.

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Lots of MPs came back after that election, including Gavin Barrell

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who is in number ten, who lost his seat, saying teachers and others

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were saying we can't carry on with the pay restraint up until 2020. I

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think it is going to happen for a combination of reasons. What happens

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to deficit reduction? The deficit is going to rise this year. There were

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a few Tory MPs but not many who feel it is wrong for the party to

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capitulate, having made such a point of principle about posterity, that

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it looks very, very week just to be caving in. I think Steve is right.

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This isn't just about the maths and the -- in the House of Commons, Tory

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MPs are frightened in a way I have never known them frightened before,

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at the momentum behind Jeremy Corbyn at the moment. There is a real

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feeling about the Tory brand being really in a very, very difficult

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place at the moment, where Tories look nasty, there isn't nearly

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enough sympathy and it feels politically impossible to stick with

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the pay limits as they are. That may be one reason that will keep Tory

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MPs in line, because the last thing they want at the moment is an

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election. When they say the country doesn't need on another election it

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means the Tory party doesn't mean another election, isn't that right?

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That's right and I think the view is settled. Notwithstanding frenzied

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speculation in Sunday newspapers, the daily newspapers are a lot more

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responsible! LAUGHTER But every Tory MP says to Reza until

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the end of Brexit, we don't want to open Pandora's box. -- Theresa May

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until the end of Brexit. The problem still remains, she does have a lot

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less authority, which is why you get bigwigs left, right and Centre for

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Michael Gove to Damian Green and Justine Greening rattling that

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instant more money. You have to keep the balance by leaving by consensus

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and a general for all, which we are in danger of looking like this

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morning. OK, we will see. So it's not exactly what you might

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call "strong and stable", but after a turbulent couple

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of weeks, it appears the Prime Minister has

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brought less instability, The Government's legislative

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programme is in place and Brexit So has Theresa May done

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enough to steady the ship It's been an action-packed story

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of suspense, drama and intrigue. The latest instalment,

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hotly anticipated. "I got us into this mess",

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she told her MPs after the election, This week, Theresa May

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tried to do just that. To get the Democratic Unionist

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Party's ten MPs to back the minority government,

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the PM pledged ?1 billion Opposition parties branded it a bung

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and as the week went on, some have their own MPs

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who are less than enthusiastic. Mr Speaker, I can barely put

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into words my anger at the deal But having signed that piece

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of paper, the Tories now had a tight working majority of 13 to pass key

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Commons votes. It was, at the very

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least, breathing space. So, a deep breath and, midweek,

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and Labour proposal that the cap on public sector pay rises

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should be lifted. Some Tory MPs, including ministers,

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agreed, in principle. Labour's challenge failed,

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but the Government had We will listen to what people

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in this house have said before The public sector pay cap,

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by the way, was designed to save ?5 billion for the public

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purse by 2020. But the policy looks like it

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could be on its last legs. Thursday was the big moment,

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the Queen's Speech, which passed, Tory support for a Labour amendment

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led to a government pledge to front abortions in England for women

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from Northern Ireland. The ayes have it,

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the ayes have it, unlock. The last-minute compromises in this

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Queen's Speech suggests the Prime Minister is acutely aware

:08:50.:08:52.

of the arithmetic in Parliament. She will have to listen more

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to her own MPs and they know that. One former Cabinet minister told me

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every time seven of us get together, And yet, after this week,

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the Prime Minister may not be such I think the ship is

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certainly steadier. I think there is a degree

:09:09.:09:13.

of what I call a rolling probation for the Prime Minister

:09:14.:09:16.

at the moment. And I think the Prime Minister's

:09:17.:09:18.

performances in the chamber, Prime Minister's Questions,

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we had the first one back this week, where she reasserted

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a deal of her authority. And I think there is a great deal

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of relief and respect for that. Others say the party

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should reflect on more It doesn't matter if we have

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Alexander the great or the Ark Angel Gabriel as leader,

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unless we have fundamental reform. At the moment, often we have these

:09:47.:09:49.

policies but it's like a whole load of clothes pegs without a washing

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line, bringing them together. So we need to explain

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what we are about. The Conservative Party

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is there to help working The Conservative Party

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is there because we are the party of the ladder of opportunity to get

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people up that ladder. We have a moral purpose, too,

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just as the Labour Party do. Several MPs told me the debate

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within the party is still when, Anybody who says it will definitely

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be Theresa May as the leader of the Conservative Party

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going into the next general election It might be, I have

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to say at the moment it's But conversely, there is absolutely

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no appetite whatsoever, thre are no manoeuvres going on,

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no operations going on to instigate a leadership challenge

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to have a new leader of the Conservative Party

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in the immediate future. One theory is that Theresa May stays

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on as PM to negotiate To be something of a scapegoat

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for what will be, at best controversial,

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at worst, deeply unpopular. And then, to move aside to make way

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for a less tarnished leader, who can take the Conservatives

:11:00.:11:03.

into the next general election. It's the immediate future

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Theresa May will be focused on. This week, a G20 meeting in Hamburg

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with other world leader chums. Back home, she can't

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take her friends for granted and told her own MPs,

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she'd serve as long Joining me now is the Minister

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for International Trade Greg Hands. Welcome to the programme. Good

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morning, Andrew. Do you agree with your old Treasury boss, George

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Osborne, who said easing up on austerity would risk the mistakes of

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the past which led Britain to the point where there was no money left?

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There is no change in government policy. We must live within our

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means. That is the right thing to do. We have reduced the deficit by

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three quarters since 2010. That is work that is still ongoing. It's

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very important that we keep budget discipline, because it's impossible

:12:01.:12:02.

to pay for our public services without having a growing economy,

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the taxes coming into pay for all the services people want and expect.

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How can you continue to cut the deficit, it's actually rising this

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year compared to last year, how do you continue to cut the deficit? ?1

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billion to find for the DUP, you have to find the money you could in

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debt because you couldn't change national insurance, and if you

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loosen up on the public sector pay freeze, you have to find money for

:12:26.:12:29.

that as well, how do you do both? It's important to have a prudent

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policy, a prudent fiscal budget policy. The Chancellor will be

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laying out his budget in the autumn... How do you square the

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circle and me all these demands? Your own ministers are talking about

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them and yet continue with deficit reduction? It's very important to

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consider what we have done on public sector pay. Actually by having that

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cap in place we have saved around 200,000 public sector jobs. We have

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done a lot for the lower paid public sector workers by raising the

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personal allowance... I'm not asking about that, I'm asking how do you

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meet the demand for extra public spending and continue with deficit

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reduction? I think over the last seven years the government has had a

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very good record on this, Andrew. In terms of being able to reduce the

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deficit... While still putting in place increases in public funding.

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For example, in the Conservative manifesto we pledged 4 billion extra

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on schools and 8 billion extra on health. We can do the two together,

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but it does require that budget discipline overall, making sure that

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something is to get out of control. You were a number two in the

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Treasury during George Osborne's tenure. You protected pensioners

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with triple lock, free bus passes, the Winter fuel allowance but

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trebled tuition fees on young folk made it impossible for many of them

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to get a foot on the property ladder. Is it any wonder young

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people to vote for you? I think that's an important question for us

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and an important question as we look at the election. That's why I asked

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the question, what is the answer? We have to improve our offer and young

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people and provide more housing. I think we need to look at more money

:14:08.:14:11.

into schools, improving our schools as we go forward and making sure

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that cities like mine in London are made more liveable and more

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cost-effective for young people. Why haven't you done that in the past

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seven years? Instead you have secured the pensioners and you have

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knocked young folk may have turned against you. Why should young people

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believe in capitalism if they have no chance of accruing any capital? I

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think what we have done over the last seven years has actually been

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to build more homes. We just need to build the more quickly. Your record

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of building homes is even worse than the last Labour government and you

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know that. 62% of 18-24 -year-olds voted Labour. 62%. 56 of 25-35

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-year-olds. You didn't build enough houses for these people. That is one

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of the reasons why we are addressing that. Why haven't you addressed it?

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1.5 million new homes over the course of this Parliament and what

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we have done that with things like starter homes, shared ownership,

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it's much more flexible forms of tenure to make sure homes are more

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attractive to younger people, particularly younger people starting

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off in life. Ministers have bent telling me this for seven years and

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you never do it. -- been telling me. That is what the programme is

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designed to do. We have been building more homes. We need to

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accelerate that. We'll phone need an open conversation about how we

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improve elsewhere for young people in schools and universities and so

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on that. OK, Brexit. You are the International Trade Minister. Will

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the UK leave the customs union in March 2019, and if it doesn't make

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its own trade deals? Our position on exit and the customs union is

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unchanged. What is it? To leave the single market and Customs union. But

:15:57.:16:00.

other components of free trade agreement with the European Union

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and customs arrangements, so we have frictionless free trade with the

:16:06.:16:08.

European Union. Will that happen by March 2019? That is the negotiation

:16:09.:16:13.

that has just started. I am not putting an end state on that. What

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I'm saying is the objective in this is to make sure that we frictionless

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trade with the EU and come to a future customs arrangements to buy

:16:23.:16:25.

it's not clear we will be able to start making our own trade deals

:16:26.:16:30.

after March 2019? Once we leave the European Union, yes, I am clear we

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will be able to make our own trade deals. March 2019? When we leave the

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single union and the customs union we come to an arrangement with the

:16:40.:16:42.

European Union. We will be able to make free trade deals but at the

:16:43.:16:51.

moment we can't because we are in the EU. Will you be able to make

:16:52.:16:54.

them if there is a transition period? That remains to be seen. You

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might not. We have only just started the negotiation. You had a year to

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think about it. To think about a transition period and when it might

:17:00.:17:02.

start and then... What we are clear about is there should be no cliff

:17:03.:17:05.

edge for businesses in the UK and the European Union and to make sure

:17:06.:17:09.

the trade continues as frictionless as possible. We don't yet know if we

:17:10.:17:13.

will be able to make our free trade deals during the transitional

:17:14.:17:20.

period? It could be postponed until 2021 or 22? We don't yet know if

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we're going to have a transition period, to be fair. The objection in

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all of this is to have frictionless free trade with the European Union

:17:29.:17:31.

and come to a customs arrangement. That is the objective.

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You are minister for London so let's turn to the Grenfell Tower disaster.

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Kensington and Chelsea Council is in chaos. The leader resigned on Friday

:17:51.:17:54.

and the chief executive has gone as well. That is what I mean, it is in

:17:55.:18:02.

chaos. We're waiting for a new leader for the council because it is

:18:03.:18:05.

important for local democracy to have its say. It is quite a big

:18:06.:18:10.

thing for government to to go in and put a Council on special measures.

:18:11.:18:19.

It is in a state, you have lost the chief executive, you've lost the

:18:20.:18:25.

council leader, it is lacking in experience and surely if there is

:18:26.:18:29.

ever a time to send in the Commissioners to get a grip of this

:18:30.:18:35.

crisis, it is now? We are waiting for a new leader. There is an

:18:36.:18:41.

interim chief executive coming over from Lewisham Council. Clearly,

:18:42.:18:44.

there will be lessons to be learned and that is a matter for the public

:18:45.:18:51.

enquiry. There will be an election within the Conservative group on the

:18:52.:18:57.

council. There are very capable councillors in Kensington and

:18:58.:19:01.

Chelsea. We haven't seen much sign of that, did you have any

:19:02.:19:11.

involvement in the resignation of the council leader? I spoke to him,

:19:12.:19:17.

like all council leaders do. I spoke to him, I spoke to the previous

:19:18.:19:21.

leader and the leader of might of the council. It is natural that MPs

:19:22.:19:26.

speak to their council leaders on an ongoing basis. We know the Council

:19:27.:19:29.

opted for cheaper cladding because they want good costs. So that cheese

:19:30.:19:38.

pairing is inevitable in town halls when central government, has yours

:19:39.:19:45.

has done, cut their budget by 40%? I don't accept the premise to that

:19:46.:19:49.

because a lot of financing has been devolved back to local government.

:19:50.:19:54.

But you have cut local government financing by 40%. There is 200

:19:55.:20:00.

billion available over the rest of this Parliament to the local

:20:01.:20:03.

councils and we believe that is fair. Kensington and Chelsea Council

:20:04.:20:10.

spent ?8.6 million on this refurbishment. It is not necessarily

:20:11.:20:17.

a shortage of funds. Indeed, they have 274 million in reserves and

:20:18.:20:22.

they put people at risk to save ?300,000. If that is not a case of

:20:23.:20:28.

putting in the Commissioners, what is? That is a matter for the ongoing

:20:29.:20:32.

enquiry and the lessons to be learned from that and how it

:20:33.:20:36.

happened is a matter for the different enquiries, including the

:20:37.:20:37.

public enquiries. Thank you. a stronger hand in the Brexit

:20:38.:20:39.

the election last month was to get But it's worth remembering that

:20:40.:20:45.

there's a lot at stake for both After all, the UK is a major net

:20:46.:20:50.

contributor to the EU budget and a big trading partner for the 27

:20:51.:20:54.

countries remaining in the EU. When Mr Davis and Mr Barnier kicked

:20:55.:20:58.

off the talk a couple of weeks ago, the tone was businesslike

:20:59.:21:09.

and broadly constructive. The two men agreed that the first

:21:10.:21:11.

age of the negotiation The rights of EU citizens

:21:12.:21:14.

living here and British The financial settlement

:21:15.:21:18.

that the UK will pay the EU, On citizens rights, the EU published

:21:19.:21:23.

their proposals three weeks ago, and the UK Government came forward

:21:24.:21:27.

with their plan last Monday. The UK offer, however,

:21:28.:21:30.

was greeted with scepticism. The Dutch Prime Minister

:21:31.:21:34.

Mark Rutte said... But elsewhere, some EU figures have

:21:35.:21:50.

begun to worry about the financial implications of Brexit

:21:51.:21:53.

for the remaining 27 countries. Gunther Oettinger, the EU's budget

:21:54.:21:55.

Commissioner, said this week that Brexit would leave a hole

:21:56.:21:58.

in the EU's finances of at least That's because the UK is a net

:21:59.:22:01.

contributor to the budget. The UK also runs a large trade

:22:02.:22:06.

deficit with the EU. Last year we bought ?312

:22:07.:22:09.

billion worth of goods That is 71 billion more

:22:10.:22:12.

than we sold to the So the introduction of trade tariffs

:22:13.:22:21.

would be costly for both sides. The Brexit negotiations

:22:22.:22:29.

will continue every month. Mr Davis and Mr Barnier

:22:30.:22:31.

will have their next face-to-face meeting in Brussels on Monday

:22:32.:22:34.

the 17th of July. Joining me now from Rome

:22:35.:22:36.

is Roberto Gualtieri. He's a Socialist MEP,

:22:37.:22:38.

and part of the European Welcome to the programme. The

:22:39.:22:49.

British government has published a detailed plan to protect the rights

:22:50.:22:54.

of EU citizens living in the UK. The EU response was highly critical,

:22:55.:23:00.

will that be the EU's response to everything Britain proposes? First,

:23:01.:23:09.

we welcome the intention to protect EU citizens. But, our reading of the

:23:10.:23:17.

plan is that it falls short of its own ambitions, so there are a number

:23:18.:23:23.

of issues to be clarified. I think also to be corrected. For instance,

:23:24.:23:33.

while our proposal is based on a new low, this is based on a UK low and

:23:34.:23:38.

there are no guarantees that might be changed in the future. Then there

:23:39.:23:43.

is the famous issue of enforcement, which is based on UK courts. And

:23:44.:23:47.

third, there are a number of rights which seem to be missing. For

:23:48.:23:54.

instance, a family member will have to make his own request for settled

:23:55.:24:02.

status and we consider that an conceivable there might be two

:24:03.:24:09.

different answers. My own child, for instance. You are right, there are

:24:10.:24:15.

things to discuss. This wasn't a take it or leave it offer by the

:24:16.:24:21.

British government, it was the beginning of a negotiation. But

:24:22.:24:25.

Michel Barnier said it lacked clarity and vision. Someone else

:24:26.:24:29.

said it was worrisome and the Dutch Prime Minister said there were

:24:30.:24:31.

thousands of questions left unanswered. These are not helpful

:24:32.:24:38.

responses? It is not an issue of tones, it is an issue of the start

:24:39.:24:43.

of the negotiation, indeed. We are commentating the paper, identifying

:24:44.:24:50.

what is good, and the rights similar, there are a number of

:24:51.:24:54.

loopholes and there are some more from the issues relating to the

:24:55.:24:59.

legal status... It just sounds very constructive. Instead of saying,

:25:00.:25:04.

this is a good start, but there is much more to do. But you just sound

:25:05.:25:14.

negative. No, I don't think so. My first sentence was, I welcome the

:25:15.:25:17.

intention to protect the rights of EU citizens. That is a very

:25:18.:25:23.

constructive sentence. Then one has to be consistent and to find a

:25:24.:25:27.

mechanism which fully guarantees the right and the negotiation, and they

:25:28.:25:32.

are exactly for this purpose. Brussels is now worrying about how

:25:33.:25:36.

to fill the huge financial hole that Britain's departure will create in

:25:37.:25:42.

EU revenues. There is a number of ideas being floated at the moment,

:25:43.:25:47.

introduce an EU VAT supplement or take an axe to the common

:25:48.:25:52.

agricultural policy which is about 40% of the budget. Does that appeal

:25:53.:25:57.

to you? There are two different problems. The first is to define the

:25:58.:26:03.

settlement, which has to be an integral part of the withdrawal

:26:04.:26:10.

agreement. We are not looking for fines, we are looking for only

:26:11.:26:17.

commitment to be paid. Then there is the issue for the future, were of

:26:18.:26:22.

course the union will have to reassess and redefine and improve

:26:23.:26:27.

its mechanism in its own resources so it can have an efficient finances

:26:28.:26:36.

in the future. So what do you want, and EU VAT or cutting money to

:26:37.:26:40.

Italy? I think the union deserves a better system of resources. This is

:26:41.:26:48.

for the future and we are working on that. Do you agree with the bustle's

:26:49.:26:52.

commission every member of the EU should adopt the euro by 2025? Yes,

:26:53.:27:03.

of course it is possible. Like it was for the United Kingdom, for

:27:04.:27:06.

Denmark, but in principle, the members of the union members of the

:27:07.:27:13.

union. So we think it would be good to a allowed the euro. There is the

:27:14.:27:23.

political will of the country to be taken into account but I think the

:27:24.:27:28.

euro has proven to be a successful currency, protecting citizens. I

:27:29.:27:32.

expect the membership will be broadened in the future. Why is it's

:27:33.:27:40.

GDP below what it was 15 years ago and the industrial output is below

:27:41.:27:47.

them what it was in 1984 so the euro hasn't been successful to you. You

:27:48.:27:52.

now run a massive deficit with Germany, where is the success? It

:27:53.:27:59.

should not be confused, the currency with the economic crisis we had. The

:28:00.:28:07.

also mistake in the conductor of the economic policy. We are changing

:28:08.:28:11.

austerity politics for more growth policies. Your country hasn't grown

:28:12.:28:18.

since you join the euro. The economic policy is another thing, so

:28:19.:28:22.

we need to change the economic policy. The common currencies is a

:28:23.:28:28.

strong protection for all of us. Your country hasn't grown since you

:28:29.:28:35.

joined the euro. I don't think your assessment is correct. Yes it is. By

:28:36.:28:42.

the way now, Italy is growing and that is good. Europe is growing. In

:28:43.:28:48.

2017 it is growing more than the US and the UK. Do you accept if Britain

:28:49.:28:58.

had stayed in and been forced to join the euro in 2025, there is no

:28:59.:29:03.

public opinion support for joining the euro here? This is a joke.

:29:04.:29:10.

Whenever they say, if the UK had stayed in the union, the UK would be

:29:11.:29:18.

forced to join the euro. This is not true. That is what the Brussels

:29:19.:29:24.

delegation said. The Brussels commission said it thinks everybody

:29:25.:29:27.

in the EU should adopt the euro by 2025. As I said, no. If you want to

:29:28.:29:36.

make a political statement, you are free to do so. But the fact is, the

:29:37.:29:42.

member of the delegation to the euro are supposed to join. Members who

:29:43.:29:47.

have decided to stay out of the euro, are free to stay out of the

:29:48.:29:51.

euro whilst they are in the EU. That is perfectly possible. Thank you for

:29:52.:29:54.

speaking to us from Rome today. Jeremy Corbyn has had a bit

:29:55.:29:57.

of a spring in his step Indeed, despite the party's

:29:58.:30:02.

internal splits, Labour But earlier this week,

:30:03.:30:05.

Labour's divisions on Brexit were thrust into the open as 50

:30:06.:30:09.

Labour MPs defied the party line to vote in favour of a backbench

:30:10.:30:12.

amendment calling for the UK to remain members of the EU single

:30:13.:30:15.

market and customs union. One of those rebels was Labour MP

:30:16.:30:18.

Stella Creasy who had this to say What a lot of us are saying

:30:19.:30:21.

is we want, in these negotiations, To have a government that has forced

:30:22.:30:28.

through a hard Brexit, especially in the light

:30:29.:30:34.

of the general election result, with the public very clearly

:30:35.:30:37.

rejecting Theresa May's approach, And across the house, again,

:30:38.:30:39.

there are MPs saying, We don't know what is possible

:30:40.:30:44.

to achieve, but what we do know is if you walk in the room

:30:45.:30:48.

and you throw away something like single market membership,

:30:49.:30:51.

which 650,000 jobs in London alone are part of that,

:30:52.:30:53.

it's irresponsible. I'm joined now by the Shadow Justice

:30:54.:30:56.

Secretary Richard Burgon. Welcome to the programme. Thank you.

:30:57.:31:09.

On Thursday 49 MPs, almost a fifth of the Parliamentary party, rebelled

:31:10.:31:14.

against the leadership over Brexit, including three shadow ministers,

:31:15.:31:17.

were subsequently sacked by Jeremy Corbyn. Labour is now more divided

:31:18.:31:21.

on Brexit than the Tories? I don't think so. I think the amendment was

:31:22.:31:26.

regrettable and premature, and I agree with the Labour deputy leader

:31:27.:31:30.

Tom Watson, when he said he was disappointed about that. Actually,

:31:31.:31:34.

the difference in the Labour Party, the difference of nuance on the

:31:35.:31:38.

single market between those who definitely want to be a member of

:31:39.:31:42.

the single market, including some people who backed that amendment,

:31:43.:31:45.

and those who want tariff free access to the single market. The

:31:46.:31:52.

reality is, not just on Brexit, but a whole host of issue, it's the

:31:53.:31:54.

Conservative government that is completely divided and that odds

:31:55.:32:00.

with itself. If it is just nuance and you are not divided, Mark our

:32:01.:32:07.

card. The Chancellor said single access market mentorship is not on

:32:08.:32:10.

the table, the Brexit secretary said it should be and another shadow

:32:11.:32:15.

ministers speaks about seeking reformed membership of the European

:32:16.:32:18.

market and the customs union. Which one is Labour policy? Brexit is a

:32:19.:32:25.

settled issue, in that Labour accents Britain is leaving the

:32:26.:32:27.

European Union but we believe Britain has to have a relationship

:32:28.:32:32.

with the institutions. Which one is Labour policy of these three

:32:33.:32:37.

statements? Labour believes that we should be having a job 's first

:32:38.:32:43.

Brexit. A Brexit that puts the economy first. As our manifesto

:32:44.:32:48.

says, Britain's leaving the European Union, for example that also means

:32:49.:32:54.

the freedom of movement of labour, and the UK's part of that, will end

:32:55.:32:59.

when Britain leads the EU. Do you want freedom of movement to end?

:33:00.:33:03.

What we do want to end is the practice of unscrupulous employers,

:33:04.:33:10.

only recruiting workers from abroad and also an scrupulous employers

:33:11.:33:13.

trying to use the free you movement of labour to breakdown -- drag down

:33:14.:33:19.

terms and conditions. You can do that if we are in or out of the

:33:20.:33:22.

single market. Do you want freedom of movement to end? It is inevitable

:33:23.:33:28.

the freedom of movement will end. Do you want it to do is a question that

:33:29.:33:31.

that is the difference. Your manifesto said what you just said, I

:33:32.:33:34.

asked you if you want it to end? What Labour wants is Brexit that

:33:35.:33:40.

puts jobs on the economy that is. What Labour doesn't want is to put

:33:41.:33:47.

immigration and fall 's immigration targets as the Conservatives did on

:33:48.:33:51.

the table. What is the answer? It's quite simple, the free movement of

:33:52.:33:55.

labour will end in terms of when the UK leads the European Union.

:33:56.:33:58.

Labour's priority is not any other issue than jobs on the economy being

:33:59.:34:04.

put first and that is really important. Putting jobs on the

:34:05.:34:07.

economy does, should we leave or stay in the customs union? I think

:34:08.:34:12.

we need to leave all the options open on that. We need to negotiate

:34:13.:34:18.

without putting options off the table. You can't negotiate unless

:34:19.:34:23.

you know what your aim is, is it to leave or stay in the customs union?

:34:24.:34:27.

British manufacturers gain a lot, and their workers, in jobs, in terms

:34:28.:34:33.

of the current arrangement with a customs union. What we want is an

:34:34.:34:38.

equivalent benefit. We want the benefits of being in the customs

:34:39.:34:42.

union, even if when we leave the European Union we can't be in the

:34:43.:34:45.

customs union. These are the kind of demands that Theresa May should be

:34:46.:34:50.

making, and her ability to do so, I'm afraid, has been severely

:34:51.:34:54.

weakened by the fact you can't even command a majority now after she

:34:55.:34:58.

asked for a majority to do so. You have criticised the government for

:34:59.:35:02.

saying no deal is better than a bad deal, which I understand. But does

:35:03.:35:06.

that mean Labour's position is that any deal is better than no Deal? Any

:35:07.:35:12.

deal better than no Deal? No, no. It would be strange to say any deal is

:35:13.:35:15.

better than no Deal. We want a good deal for Britain. But if you can't

:35:16.:35:21.

get that? We are confident a Labour government could get that, we want a

:35:22.:35:27.

job 's first Brexit that puts jobs first and puts living standards

:35:28.:35:30.

first and doesn't use, as the Conservative government has tried to

:35:31.:35:34.

do, Brexit as a smoke screen to try and create some kind of low

:35:35.:35:40.

regulated tax haven... You could be in government for very shortly and

:35:41.:35:46.

the in these negotiations. If the EU does not budge on demanding 1

:35:47.:35:49.

billion euros divorce Bill, would you just sack that for the sake of

:35:50.:36:00.

any deal or say no? -- suck it up? Labour won't be sucking up to

:36:01.:36:04.

anyone, the EU or anyone else. A Labour government would negotiate

:36:05.:36:08.

hard for Britain. What if they wouldn't budge? On the demand for

:36:09.:36:11.

100 billion euros? What would you do? These are hypothetical

:36:12.:36:17.

scenarios, and these negotiations are nuanced and compensated. Labour

:36:18.:36:23.

would campaign, in opposition, hold the government to account for and in

:36:24.:36:26.

government deliver jobs first Brexit, that puts the economy does.

:36:27.:36:30.

The kind of post-Brexit Britain we want to see is one in which there is

:36:31.:36:35.

investment in industry, assistance from the government in industry and

:36:36.:36:39.

are more equal society with high wage jobs. Ian Wright Fricke, your

:36:40.:36:43.

new party says Labour is currently too broad a church. Do

:36:44.:36:56.

broad church, socialists and trade unionists and long may it be so. You

:36:57.:37:01.

don't agree? The Labour Party is a broad church and it should be. Do

:37:02.:37:05.

you support lowering the threshold of MPs needed, that you need to get

:37:06.:37:10.

to stand for the Labour leadership? It is going to be debated at your

:37:11.:37:13.

autumn conference? This question isn't seen as dead about the

:37:14.:37:20.

leadership election many people predicted would occur after the

:37:21.:37:23.

general election won't be occurring. Do you support? Tom Watson says

:37:24.:37:27.

Jeremy Corbyn is secure for many years. I do believe all parties,

:37:28.:37:32.

including the Labour Party, need to be made more democratic. We have a

:37:33.:37:35.

membership of well over half a million and I would like the members

:37:36.:37:39.

to have more say in our party's policies and in the way the party is

:37:40.:37:45.

run. Jeremy Corbyn spoke at a left-wing rally in London yesterday.

:37:46.:37:51.

Among the crowd there were placards calling Theresa May a murderer,

:37:52.:37:57.

pictures of Mrs May's head on communist flags and Trotskyite

:37:58.:38:00.

banners. Are these the kind of people Mr Corbyn should be

:38:01.:38:04.

associating himself with, if he is a Prime Minister in waiting? The

:38:05.:38:07.

reality is when you speak at an outdoor meeting, you have no control

:38:08.:38:11.

who turns up or who is walking past. You have no control over the kind of

:38:12.:38:16.

banners people make. I understand the hundred and 50,000 members of

:38:17.:38:19.

the public at that event. No, there won't, 15,000. I spoke the night

:38:20.:38:26.

before the general election, in an event in Leeds city centre. For all

:38:27.:38:30.

I know, there could have been all sorts of people walking past,

:38:31.:38:34.

watching. The key thing is to judge Jeremy by his words, Judge Labour by

:38:35.:38:38.

our words on what we've done. We do believe in a new kind of politics.

:38:39.:38:44.

Also politics committed to changing our society for the better. OK,

:38:45.:38:48.

Richard Burgen, thank you for joining us today. It is coming up to

:38:49.:38:51.

11:40pm. Good morning and welcome

:38:52.:38:57.

to Sunday Politics Scotland. A leading think tank

:38:58.:38:59.

here says our economy's I'll be asking the Government

:39:00.:39:03.

and the leading political parties where the problem lies,

:39:04.:39:08.

and what needs to be done. And, she would have been a strong

:39:09.:39:12.

contender but decided not to stand. What stopped Jo Swinson from going

:39:13.:39:15.

for the Lib Dem leadership? There's been a warning that Scotland

:39:16.:39:23.

may be slipping into recession. In fact, Scotland may be

:39:24.:39:26.

in recession right now. We'll know for sure when we get

:39:27.:39:28.

the official figures this week. But aside from that,

:39:29.:39:31.

we've seen several recent reports from experts concerned

:39:32.:39:34.

about sluggish growth So what needs to be

:39:35.:39:35.

done to improve things? For the last mile, experts reckon

:39:36.:39:55.

Scotland's economy is a bit like a lock in the summer. It is very

:39:56.:40:00.

definitely there, but apart from a few ripples, there has not been much

:40:01.:40:04.

action. That begs an important question. Is Scotland's economy in

:40:05.:40:13.

trouble? This week a report from the Fraser of Allander Institute, and

:40:14.:40:15.

economic think tank, said that Scotland had been stuck in a cycle

:40:16.:40:19.

of low growth and continues to lag behind the UK as a whole. Could a

:40:20.:40:25.

bit more trouble over the hill? Aspects have predicted that

:40:26.:40:28.

Scotland's economy is in a precarious position and could be

:40:29.:40:32.

headed into recession. How do you go about stimulating economic growth?

:40:33.:40:38.

Bar from the calm waters, in a heart of Glasgow, in this creative digital

:40:39.:40:43.

agency is part of the economy of the future. Clients want what they have

:40:44.:40:48.

to offer but the problem is employing people with the right

:40:49.:40:52.

skills. Over the years we have seen a change in the universities and

:40:53.:40:57.

colleges, changing their curriculum, but I sympathise with them because

:40:58.:41:01.

somebody, we live and breathe this every day, a course might start in

:41:02.:41:06.

September and by December some of the teachings of what they are

:41:07.:41:09.

trying to do might already be out of date. We do understand that it is

:41:10.:41:19.

past, but we are seeing in terms of finding the high-quality people, it

:41:20.:41:22.

is probably more a competitive market these days. We are finding it

:41:23.:41:28.

quite tough to get those people in. What we tend to seek, and I'm going

:41:29.:41:34.

by when we recruit, if it is a marketing or brand related job, we

:41:35.:41:39.

inundated and could probably come down to a short list and be picking

:41:40.:41:45.

one of five easily. There seems to be typically that the shortage of

:41:46.:41:49.

skills comes from the technical development side of things. And when

:41:50.:41:53.

it comes to the wider economy, what do the experts think are the main

:41:54.:42:00.

issues? In the fall had a bad consequence for the north-east,

:42:01.:42:02.

which can be spread out across the rest of Scotland. I guess other

:42:03.:42:07.

parts of the country have lacked dynamism in the last ten years, so

:42:08.:42:13.

we have got a situation where the Scottish economy is performing at

:42:14.:42:20.

pretty poorly for a fairly long period of time. Are there any

:42:21.:42:24.

measures, long short-term, that the Scottish Government can implement to

:42:25.:42:28.

try and improve things? They should be looking at the long-term factors,

:42:29.:42:35.

what we're thinking about is infrastructure investment, and much

:42:36.:42:40.

more clear skills policies to ensure that if businesses do want to come

:42:41.:42:44.

to Scotland, there are people available that could make these

:42:45.:42:49.

businesses prosper. And private sector entrepreneurs like David

:42:50.:42:53.

reckon that governments have to play a direct role. There is a general

:42:54.:42:58.

responsibility for the Government to stimulate growth. We have went

:42:59.:43:03.

through a period of austerity, I do think that very much generate a

:43:04.:43:09.

negative head down attitude, and I think to the spending increase,

:43:10.:43:13.

obviously with an a sensible limit, would definitely help stimulate that

:43:14.:43:21.

thinking. Boosting the economy is something politicians are always

:43:22.:43:25.

reflecting on what with concerns about a possible Scottish recession,

:43:26.:43:30.

Ferguson minds? -- focus minds Here to discuss some of the issues

:43:31.:43:37.

arising from that is -- the Scottish Government's Minister

:43:38.:43:40.

for Employability and that report mentioned said the

:43:41.:43:46.

weakness in the Scottish economy cannot be just explained by the fall

:43:47.:43:52.

in oil price and the effect of oil and gas industry cannot beat Spain

:43:53.:43:56.

by Brexit, because the economy down south is doing well at the moment.

:43:57.:44:00.

It says instead it would appear that the economy is not a cycle of low

:44:01.:44:06.

growth, weak investment and fragile confidence. Why do you think that

:44:07.:44:12.

is? First thing to reflect on is that the Fraser of Allander

:44:13.:44:17.

Institute do say that about two thirds of the sluggish growth in the

:44:18.:44:22.

economy, it is in fact down to the downturn in oil. Just like no one is

:44:23.:44:26.

denying that oil and gas is a big factor, what they are saying is that

:44:27.:44:33.

they cannot explain, such weakness cannot beat Rangers by the downturn

:44:34.:44:38.

in oil and gas. I am not saying it is solely that, but to two thirds of

:44:39.:44:43.

it. Just like what else is going on? There are other underlying trends

:44:44.:44:48.

that need to get under the skin off, but the other thing we should

:44:49.:44:52.

reflect on, there are other strengths in the Scottish economy. I

:44:53.:44:58.

asked you why you think there is a weakness beyond the fall in the oil

:44:59.:45:01.

and gas industry. What is your answer before you start to how

:45:02.:45:06.

marvellous everything is? I wasn't going to say it is marvellous, I am

:45:07.:45:10.

not denigrating the nature of the challenge we face. We have seen in

:45:11.:45:14.

the last quarter, attraction in the economy, I am not seeking to

:45:15.:45:17.

downplay that. I would caution against Scott currently talking down

:45:18.:45:21.

the Scottish economy. I am not talking anything down, I am asking

:45:22.:45:24.

you to explain why you as it represented of the Government, the

:45:25.:45:29.

Scottish economy other than oil and gas is still so weak, relative to

:45:30.:45:33.

the economy in a mess of the UK? The point and try to make is that

:45:34.:45:41.

ultimately I would agree we cannot be totally down to oil and gas. Two

:45:42.:45:45.

thirds of it by the Fraser of Allander Institute balls own

:45:46.:45:48.

measure, clearly there are issues about confidence in terms of people

:45:49.:45:54.

utilising capital and putting it productively into the economy....

:45:55.:45:58.

Why should be a problem here and not in England? I would beg to differ

:45:59.:46:03.

will stop economic performance all in all has not exactly been a

:46:04.:46:10.

powerhouse either. Ultimately... Between the end of 2015 and in 2016,

:46:11.:46:16.

the British economy grew by 1.9%. The Scottish economy do not grow at

:46:17.:46:21.

all. Over in the last year, this logic on eBay grow, comm-mac Where

:46:22.:46:26.

already clear on that. This year coming, it will grow again. Any last

:46:27.:46:32.

quarter, it was challenging. As we go into the... We need to work with

:46:33.:46:40.

the capital to get the confidence to invest, that is something we are

:46:41.:46:43.

constantly doing to our economic strategy and labour market strategy,

:46:44.:46:49.

we have got the Scottish growth. Let me not ask your question but let the

:46:50.:46:53.

Fraser of Allander Institute ask you. They say, what our economy

:46:54.:46:58.

needs more than ever is clear policy strategies backed by concrete

:46:59.:47:00.

action. The Scottish economy has been flat-lining for two years,

:47:01.:47:04.

contrary to what you have said. The EU referendum result was known 12

:47:05.:47:09.

months ago. What genuinely new policy actions with immediate effect

:47:10.:47:12.

had been taken in the response of what has been the impact? With

:47:13.:47:19.

respect, I don't think the economy has been flat-lining. I was not

:47:20.:47:23.

saying anything other than what the Fraser of Allander Institute has

:47:24.:47:28.

said. What is your answer to the question? We got the Scottish growth

:47:29.:47:35.

scheme, ?500 million. That supports businesses to export. Small business

:47:36.:47:40.

owners which continues to support small medium enterprise sector,

:47:41.:47:44.

which lets remember, we have expanded that game, it still takes

:47:45.:47:49.

100,000 businesses of having to pay business rates. This is not having

:47:50.:47:57.

any impact. The impact is that the Scottish economy is possibly being

:47:58.:48:04.

going into recession. We measure economic growth in quarterly cycles.

:48:05.:48:08.

I am not trying to downplay or denigrate the concerns that exist

:48:09.:48:13.

about the last quarter where we did see some contraction in the Scottish

:48:14.:48:16.

economy. Any time that happens, immediately summon could say we're

:48:17.:48:20.

on the brink of recession. We'll see the latest GDP figures this week. I

:48:21.:48:23.

am not going to presuppose them. There is a lot to be confident about

:48:24.:48:29.

the Scottish economy. Scottish oil and gas... Let's forget about

:48:30.:48:35.

recession. And they are saying they should be confidence in the sector,

:48:36.:48:39.

which has accounted for so many of the issues of the last two years. I

:48:40.:48:45.

except that two quarters, it is a narrow definition. It is not really

:48:46.:48:50.

the most important thing. The important thing is growth in the

:48:51.:48:53.

Scottish economy is substantially below growth in the British economy

:48:54.:48:59.

and has been for several years. You don't seem to have any explanation

:49:00.:49:08.

for that. Other than oil and gas. I've already said we need to imbue a

:49:09.:49:13.

greater sense of confidence to those who have capital to invest. Why is

:49:14.:49:18.

that specific to Scotland? If you look across the UK, there is a

:49:19.:49:22.

regional variation, we're positive... The difference is... The

:49:23.:49:28.

UK's economic growth is predicated on London and the south-east. Other

:49:29.:49:32.

parts of the UK, we are doing better. Better than some parts but

:49:33.:49:37.

what has happened is that for many years Scotland was doing relatively

:49:38.:49:40.

well compared to areas of England, like the north and even the

:49:41.:49:44.

Midlands, and that is not happening any more. Go here is lower than in

:49:45.:49:48.

most of these areas in England. In the latest figures, if you look at

:49:49.:49:52.

the labour market, we have a very resilient labour market,

:49:53.:49:57.

unemployment is at a 25 year low. That is lighter because they

:49:58.:50:02.

dropping out of the labour market. More people went into employment I

:50:03.:50:06.

went into inactivity. Inactivity as an economic measure is all to often

:50:07.:50:10.

misunderstood. That includes people who are studying and fun and higher

:50:11.:50:12.

education. What you have done is disputed the

:50:13.:50:20.

Fraser of Allander Institute figures. You have district --

:50:21.:50:26.

disregarded my interpretation. You have come up with no explanation

:50:27.:50:33.

about whether the government is concerned about the situation. Have

:50:34.:50:39.

you got any big idea or a you going to chug on and continue what you are

:50:40.:50:45.

doing? We would be concerned with a contraction. Give me one idea. We

:50:46.:50:51.

will continue to do what we are seeking to do. We are investing in

:50:52.:50:55.

people to make sure they have opportunity to advance in the labour

:50:56.:51:00.

market through education, apprenticeships. We are investing in

:51:01.:51:09.

our transport infrastructure. To have 100% broadband coverage by

:51:10.:51:13.

2021. These will be necessary to ensure we have economic progress.

:51:14.:51:19.

The problem is the Scottish economy is flat-lining relative to the rest

:51:20.:51:24.

of the UK. They may be marvellous in the long term but they are not

:51:25.:51:29.

addressing the specific problem. To the contrary. If you take it back,

:51:30.:51:34.

this is where I am not disputing the Fraser of Allander Institute and

:51:35.:51:38.

what they are saying. We would like to see more growth and the project

:51:39.:51:42.

in this year the economy will continue to grow. Jamie Hepburn,

:51:43.:51:45.

thank you very much. Well, for a couple of alternative

:51:46.:51:47.

perspectives on the Fraser of Allander report,

:51:48.:51:49.

I'm joined by two MSPs. From Edinburgh, Dean Lockhart

:51:50.:51:51.

of The Scottish Conservatives, and with me here in Glasgow,

:51:52.:51:53.

Scottish Labour's Jackie Baillie. Dean Lockhart, do you accept this

:51:54.:52:05.

explanation that there is nothing to explain? No, not at all. This is a

:52:06.:52:11.

real indictment. A leading institute in Scotland have said we have had a

:52:12.:52:17.

lost decade under the SNP. That is right. Scotland was Mike economy is

:52:18.:52:22.

underperforming, we are on the brink of recession. While the rest of the

:52:23.:52:30.

UK economy is one of the strongest in Europe... Fraser of Allander

:52:31.:52:35.

Institute say it is not just oil and gas. What is your explanation of

:52:36.:52:40.

what that is. Can I see a couple of things. To grow the economy, if you

:52:41.:52:45.

look at successful economies worldwide, Singapore, Germany, you

:52:46.:52:53.

need a whole government approach. Every department needs to be aligned

:52:54.:52:58.

to grow the economy. We have not here in Scotland Scottish Government

:52:59.:53:02.

that has its priorities elsewhere. Nicola Sturgeon has said that

:53:03.:53:06.

independence transcends the case for the economy for national wealth. As

:53:07.:53:12.

Jamie Hepburn has the listing, they have the listing initiatives. The

:53:13.:53:17.

problem seems to be that they are not addressing whatever that

:53:18.:53:19.

specific problem in Scotland is and it is still unclear. Economists are

:53:20.:53:25.

unclear about it. Politicians are unclear about it. The Fraser of

:53:26.:53:29.

Allander Institute is very clear when they see that the Scottish

:53:30.:53:38.

Government's approach of having the strategy... It is less clear what

:53:39.:53:43.

those policies should be. It is about successful implementation.

:53:44.:53:47.

Having focus on what works and the economy and this government after

:53:48.:53:51.

ten years, they do not understand. Give me one big idea of yours. We

:53:52.:53:59.

have published on a UK wide level 140 page industrial strategy that

:54:00.:54:02.

incorporates a centre approach to the economy that is basically, it is

:54:03.:54:10.

supported by the Royal Society of Edinburgh, the Scottish Whisky

:54:11.:54:12.

Association who have asked the Scottish Government to support a UK

:54:13.:54:17.

wide industrial strategy. That is what we are seeing. We want a new

:54:18.:54:22.

approach to the economy and that is about harnessing a strength in

:54:23.:54:26.

different sectors. Food and drink is a success. That is what we should be

:54:27.:54:30.

doing. We should be focusing on a UK wide level. Jackie Baillie, what is

:54:31.:54:39.

your explanation? If you look at the Scottish economy, over the past ten

:54:40.:54:44.

years, it has grown by 1.2%. That is a really small figure when you

:54:45.:54:48.

compare it to the preceding seven years where they grew by 17%. The

:54:49.:54:53.

thing that has been common in the last ten years as a constant

:54:54.:54:57.

obsession with independence, and I have to say when you talk to

:54:58.:55:01.

businesses, businesses hate uncertainty. They did not like

:55:02.:55:05.

Brexit because of the uncertainty. They do not like the threat of an

:55:06.:55:09.

independence referendum because of the uncertainty. There is little

:55:10.:55:13.

hard evidence to back that up. There have been good figures for foreign

:55:14.:55:19.

direct investment in Scotland. It is difficult to argue that. If you look

:55:20.:55:25.

at foreign direct investment in 2014, it dropped. If you look at

:55:26.:55:30.

foreign direct investment in the property market, it dropped

:55:31.:55:33.

significantly. It is not as saying it. Even if we concede the point

:55:34.:55:42.

that the threat of an independence referendum might affect this, it

:55:43.:55:46.

does not explain what you have said that over the last decade, 1.2%

:55:47.:55:51.

growth. I am not sure what the current figure is for the UK, but it

:55:52.:55:56.

is much higher than that. The UK grew at a higher rate. The Scottish

:55:57.:56:01.

economy, particularly in the last two years... It is a combination of

:56:02.:56:08.

different factors. In the last two years the difference between the

:56:09.:56:13.

Scottish economy and the UK economy has then start, and that is about

:56:14.:56:17.

oil and gas. What we need to get beyond saying it is this sector and

:56:18.:56:22.

that sector. We have to understand it is the Scottish economy as Apple

:56:23.:56:26.

and to bring into play the actions required to make a difference. We

:56:27.:56:31.

have an economic strategy. Give me one. With exports, about 100

:56:32.:56:37.

companies are responsible for a 60% of our exports. They tend not to be

:56:38.:56:43.

SME 2-mac which is the backbone of the Scottish economy. If you invest

:56:44.:56:47.

in small to medium enterprises to ensure that they are taking on board

:56:48.:56:53.

export opportunities, that is one mechanism for growing the economy.

:56:54.:56:57.

Investing in skills is another. Companies tell us all the time there

:56:58.:57:01.

is a skills gap in Scotland. Construction, engineering, they are

:57:02.:57:05.

needed to boost the Scottish economy. There is a reduction in the

:57:06.:57:11.

number of students at colleges, the very place they learn the skills.

:57:12.:57:16.

The skills point, the chap in the film was making that point as well.

:57:17.:57:20.

He said that people coming out of universities are not really equipped

:57:21.:57:26.

with the skills that they need. Again, why is that a problem given

:57:27.:57:31.

that education has been such a priority, not just on the creed of

:57:32.:57:35.

the SNP but before that? It is, Gordon. It is a problem here. Nicola

:57:36.:57:41.

Sturgeon said education would be her top priority. What we have seen

:57:42.:57:47.

under the SNP in the next -- last decade, new Morrissey is dropping.

:57:48.:57:51.

Is the problem that the one that Jackie Mark -- Jackie Baillie

:57:52.:57:59.

identified. Is it something about people taking the wrong, not the

:58:00.:58:02.

wrong degrees, but people should be a later date liberal arts degrees if

:58:03.:58:06.

they want, there are not enough people doing the type of degrees

:58:07.:58:10.

that would be useful to the company we saw in the film? Again, in order

:58:11.:58:17.

to address the issue we need a hall of government approach which is to

:58:18.:58:23.

prioritise the economy. And going to education, it is about college

:58:24.:58:27.

places which are essential. It is all very well having great

:58:28.:58:30.

universities. Scotland has world-class potential. But college

:58:31.:58:39.

places are essential because they provide training for people who can

:58:40.:58:44.

fill that skills gap. We are going to have a wee bit there. Thank you

:58:45.:58:50.

both very much indeed. -- going to have to leave it there.

:58:51.:58:52.

Now, maybe in a couple of years' time, Jo Swinson might stand

:58:53.:58:54.

She had the chance this time around, but instead she decided to go

:58:55.:58:59.

for the deputy leadership, which she won with a unanimous vote.

:59:00.:59:02.

Meanwhile, Vince Cable looks like the overwhelming favourite

:59:03.:59:04.

You are now the deputy leader of the Liberal Democrats. Why did you not

:59:05.:59:15.

stand to be leader of the Liberal Democrats? It's not a job that I

:59:16.:59:21.

wanted to be doing. At the moment. I thought it through, lots of people

:59:22.:59:26.

said lots of lovely messages encouraging me to stand, but at the

:59:27.:59:29.

end of the day it had to be my decision. It is a huge job that you

:59:30.:59:36.

cannot do lightly. And work between my constituency response teams in

:59:37.:59:38.

East Berkshire where I have been recently re-elected, and other

:59:39.:59:43.

aspects of my life, it did not seem to be the right thing to do. --

:59:44.:59:50.

where I have been recently be elected in East Dumbarton Sheriff.

:59:51.:59:55.

You made some comments at the time. Let me say at the time, a feminist

:59:56.:00:00.

but I am, I have two underwater bloke in my position would do. Many

:00:01.:00:13.

would run for a leader like a shot. Just because a man would do it does

:00:14.:00:17.

not make it the right thing to do. Which left a lot of people,

:00:18.:00:23.

feminists and others, mystified by what you meant. A lot of people

:00:24.:00:27.

don't understand what I meant. Your first question to me was querying

:00:28.:00:32.

why I did not run for a leader. Sometimes there is an assumption in

:00:33.:00:36.

politics that anybody who is a member of Parliament member as

:00:37.:00:39.

Scottish parliament must automatically must always want to be

:00:40.:00:43.

doing the leadership role. I would be questioning that assumption about

:00:44.:00:48.

why that assumption exists. Part of that is gender. There are

:00:49.:00:52.

expectations that are often put on men and women, and indeed that can

:00:53.:00:58.

be quite constraining on men who might not necessarily fit that what

:00:59.:01:03.

is perceived to be the outer note stereotype that they were perhaps

:01:04.:01:06.

pressure to do as well. Are you saying that it is something you

:01:07.:01:10.

would not like to do. No. So you would like to do it at some point? I

:01:11.:01:15.

you should never say never. I'd note you should never say never. I'd note

:01:16.:01:22.

-- I did not predict that Theresa May would call another election. I

:01:23.:01:29.

am not going to planet the rest of my career right now. Many people are

:01:30.:01:35.

saying, should Vince Cable become the leader, which looks likely,

:01:36.:01:39.

National treasure though he is, he is 74 no. He would be 79 if you made

:01:40.:01:44.

the heroic assumption that this parliament will last for five years

:01:45.:01:49.

and he may well not even want to lead the party into another

:01:50.:01:53.

election. People are saying you would at that point Stefan. Or at

:01:54.:01:58.

least and for a leader. Vince had made clear that he is perfectly

:01:59.:02:04.

prepared to do that. He has reference in Gladstone who became

:02:05.:02:10.

Prime Minister at 82. We should not be ageist about this and making

:02:11.:02:13.

assumptions. People have got a lot to offer, politics from young

:02:14.:02:19.

people. I have been involved in getting young people involved in

:02:20.:02:23.

politics. And we should not be rating people off because they are

:02:24.:02:29.

older. Should you be called upon to lead the Liberal Democrats into the

:02:30.:02:35.

next election, assuming it could be in two weeks' time, let's assume it

:02:36.:02:39.

is not. Let's assume it is several weeks away -- years away. Would you

:02:40.:02:46.

be prepared and would you feel you would be after that? I have made my

:02:47.:02:51.

decision when Tim resigned as the leader of the Liberal Democrats. I

:02:52.:02:54.

thought about it carefully and to my decision. I have said never, you

:02:55.:03:02.

have to have a look at the situation at the time. Do you buy Tim Farron's

:03:03.:03:10.

decision and explanation for why he resigned? Hearing Tim talk about it

:03:11.:03:15.

and before he made his public decision, he was clear. It made him

:03:16.:03:19.

feel personally very unhappy that that sort of inner turmoil and

:03:20.:03:25.

therefore, you know, you hear him saying that. You cannot fault them

:03:26.:03:29.

for coming to the conclusion that he did. I hope he could have stayed on.

:03:30.:03:35.

He was a good leader of the party. Do you think it is a good or bad

:03:36.:03:39.

situation. I am sure that you would not agree with some of Tim's views

:03:40.:03:45.

on homosexuality, for example. But he clearly felt that it own personal

:03:46.:03:51.

views were incompatible, being a political leader. Even though you

:03:52.:03:57.

might agree -- disagree with his views, is it a healthy situation

:03:58.:04:02.

when someone feels they cannot read a political party because of their

:04:03.:04:07.

religious views? I am a humanist and I do not believe in God. People of

:04:08.:04:13.

faith do contribute a lot to society. Politicians should be

:04:14.:04:19.

judged by the policies they've bought and the votes that they cast

:04:20.:04:24.

as parliamentarians on behalf of the people that they represent. I did

:04:25.:04:29.

feel uncomfortable at some of that questioning. I understand that

:04:30.:04:33.

people have the right to ask the questions. The focus should be on

:04:34.:04:37.

how people act. I think Tim always stood up for equality. The Liberal

:04:38.:04:43.

Democrats have got a proud history of doing that. Suppose the argument

:04:44.:04:48.

would be that as long as you support policies, which are equal rights

:04:49.:04:51.

policies, your private opinions should be your private opinions.

:04:52.:04:55.

There has been a long debate about whether faith has got a role in

:04:56.:04:59.

politics. It was Tony Blair's team who said we do not to God. There are

:05:00.:05:05.

a lot of people in the country who are going to church, there are a lot

:05:06.:05:09.

of people who are Muslim Jewish who have got all sorts of faiths

:05:10.:05:17.

beliefs, we are a stronger country and our politics. We have a Muslim

:05:18.:05:20.

era of London. We want to be embracing people of faith and

:05:21.:05:24.

politics. One thing that may happen is a big realignment in British

:05:25.:05:30.

politics. We have got to rather obviously wanes of the Labour Party.

:05:31.:05:37.

There are any number of divisions between the Conservative Party. Some

:05:38.:05:40.

who want the negotiations on a softer line or harder line. There

:05:41.:05:42.

could be a big realignment of softer could be a big realignment of softer

:05:43.:05:47.

-- British politics. That is what the Liberal Democrats lived for. Do

:05:48.:05:50.

you think there will be and what role do you think the Liberal

:05:51.:05:52.

Democrats can play? I figure we have a opportunity in a

:05:53.:06:01.

strong parliament with the Conservatives don't have an overall

:06:02.:06:04.

majority, they have done their deal with the DUP on key votes of

:06:05.:06:08.

confidence and supply, but otherwise to get business to they are going to

:06:09.:06:11.

convince Parliament, and that means that parties working together. Can

:06:12.:06:18.

you foresee a situation where there would be a realignment in British

:06:19.:06:21.

politics in the sense that you could have a new sectors party with

:06:22.:06:24.

elements of the Labour Party and elements of conservatives and

:06:25.:06:27.

presumably a role for the Liberal Democrats as well as Mac that is

:06:28.:06:33.

speculation, in reality we have got a strong Liberal Democrat party who

:06:34.:06:38.

are providing that voice that I do think many people want in terms of

:06:39.:06:41.

wanting a party that is padding after... You did not make the

:06:42.:06:45.

picture that you wanted to expect it to. We increase our seats by 50%. We

:06:46.:06:53.

have got... That has increased by 50%. I had a bacon roll when I

:06:54.:06:58.

arrived at Pacific tea this morning, that is 100% increase on the number

:06:59.:07:01.

of bacon rolls I normally eat in the morning. These figures, 8-12. You

:07:02.:07:08.

were hoping to get 30, 40 C to get back on serious business. We got the

:07:09.:07:14.

highest number of members and our party's history, we have increased,

:07:15.:07:18.

representation at Westminster and the most diverse group we have ever

:07:19.:07:22.

had, which I think it is a real strength. We have got momentum.

:07:23.:07:26.

Would I have preferred more seats? Obviously. But one of the things

:07:27.:07:30.

about this election to yesterday parliament and therefore the fool

:07:31.:07:35.

devastating impact of Brexit is perhaps as clear as it will become.

:07:36.:07:40.

Particularly if you start to look at economic indicators. We have also

:07:41.:07:42.

put a very clear marker down that we have been saying we think people

:07:43.:07:47.

should have a final say on Brexit, if they deal because back is a poor

:07:48.:07:51.

one, and when it comes back, and I feel very much it will be a bad

:07:52.:07:55.

deal, there would be more people who look at Liberal Democrats and we

:07:56.:07:59.

were right. Thank you very much indeed.

:08:00.:07:59.

And time now for a look at the Week Ahead.

:08:00.:08:06.

Well, I'm joined now by Times columnist Magnus Linklater,

:08:07.:08:08.

and Angela O'Hagan from Glasgow Caledonian University.

:08:09.:08:16.

The economy, Magnus, there doesn't be a problem. Yes, not just oil and

:08:17.:08:25.

gas. Listening to your various exchanges earlier, it is quite clear

:08:26.:08:30.

that in a sense I get the impression that the SNP Government is

:08:31.:08:33.

struggling with this. They seem to be on the one hand in denial about

:08:34.:08:40.

the reality of what faces us, which is Scotland hovering on the big of

:08:41.:08:43.

recession, could be in recession, I know these are technical terms, but

:08:44.:08:48.

clearly it is flat-lining, think that was a phrase. Despite you think

:08:49.:08:55.

there is a problem? There are different problem for different

:08:56.:09:00.

people, and always when we're this situation, the economy flat-lining

:09:01.:09:03.

of whether it is a recession, how that plays out for different people.

:09:04.:09:07.

We have seen over the years the cycles of recession and how they

:09:08.:09:11.

effect on women and men differently, and in the economic policies and

:09:12.:09:14.

strategies coming forward, we need to be addressing that is the core

:09:15.:09:20.

issue as well. The problem is, Magnus, your diet of a certain age,

:09:21.:09:24.

and when I hear politicians are talking about this, I remember being

:09:25.:09:28.

a business journalist in the 1980s and they all said exactly the same

:09:29.:09:34.

thing. Getting spin offs from Silicon Glen, about helping small

:09:35.:09:38.

and medium enterprises so that they can grow, it is about investment and

:09:39.:09:42.

skills, that is a secret. Here we are all these years later and

:09:43.:09:46.

Scottish economy grew quite well in the meantime. I'm not sure it had

:09:47.:09:49.

anything to do with any of these things the Government were doing

:09:50.:09:52.

rather than just general growth in the British colony. As you know,

:09:53.:09:57.

Government are not very good at getting involved in business, but

:09:58.:10:02.

they are... It is important that they set out certain signals and I

:10:03.:10:07.

think that while you cannot argue that independence is self has

:10:08.:10:12.

necessarily been a distraction, nevertheless there has been a vacuum

:10:13.:10:16.

in terms of economic policy. I would be hard pressed to say whether the

:10:17.:10:21.

SNP really stands on how to grow the Scottish economy, they've got this

:10:22.:10:24.

growth commission coming up, a lot is pinned on that, I don't have what

:10:25.:10:31.

it will say, but there has been this absence of leadership in terms of

:10:32.:10:34.

why Scotland should be going and how that economy should grow and where

:10:35.:10:42.

emphasis should be. The world does not... Since I was being told me

:10:43.:10:47.

since the 1980s, China has grown to the second largest economy in the

:10:48.:10:50.

world. Things around us change very fast. Liberalisation, we have just

:10:51.:10:56.

finished hearing from Jo Swinson about the affects of Brexit, clearly

:10:57.:10:59.

that is a concern for the Scottish economy. The point that Fraser of

:11:00.:11:06.

Allander Institute make is that it cant explain Scotland, because the

:11:07.:11:10.

rest of the UK is doing rather well and leaving me you as well. Brexit

:11:11.:11:14.

cannot really explain this. To go back to your question to Magnus

:11:15.:11:20.

about your fellow contributors about what we can do, think we have seen

:11:21.:11:25.

some glimpses and sparks of innovative thinking from the

:11:26.:11:29.

Scottish Government. There is a lot of positive discussion about

:11:30.:11:31.

includes a growth and what we meant by that. From my perspective, it is

:11:32.:11:38.

about recognising the centrality of care to our economy, and investment

:11:39.:11:41.

in social care and child care, not just for the workers who can access

:11:42.:11:45.

those services and build the workforce, but for building a

:11:46.:11:47.

workforce with in and building the economy with those sectors, as

:11:48.:11:52.

central to a economic infrastructure. That is the kind of

:11:53.:11:55.

language we heard a few years ago and we have seen investment in

:11:56.:11:58.

childcare from the Scottish Government, but we need a bit more

:11:59.:12:03.

boldness and conviction about the inclusive growth dynamic. Magnus, do

:12:04.:12:08.

you think... I remember in that enormous white paper the Scottish

:12:09.:12:10.

Government produced for independence there was some vague talk about

:12:11.:12:15.

German style model, something three may thought about, getting unions

:12:16.:12:22.

and employers, having a sort of German style training system.

:12:23.:12:27.

Doesn't seem to have featured much. I think the difference is that,

:12:28.:12:31.

under Alex Salmond, you felt that you did have this kind of stuff with

:12:32.:12:35.

the SNP were never going with business, he was business friendly.

:12:36.:12:39.

I don't get that same impression from Nicola Sturgeon. In defence of

:12:40.:12:44.

Nicola Sturgeon, she could say, but look at what Alex Salmond used to go

:12:45.:12:49.

on about, renewables, Saudi Arabia of wind, the whole idea that

:12:50.:12:53.

Scotland could have a new industry, not just have lots of wind turbines

:12:54.:12:57.

but have an industry which dealt particularly the offshore

:12:58.:13:02.

next-generation, and it has not happened. I think it is next week

:13:03.:13:07.

there is a decision on whether Scotland's large offshore wind

:13:08.:13:14.

energy plant of the Firth of Forth gets the go-ahead or not. If it does

:13:15.:13:19.

not, if that falls, we have no offshore. Magnus Meitner is one in

:13:20.:13:23.

the Pentland... This is the big one. A lot hangs on that. The is a

:13:24.:13:31.

contract, or am I wrong, Angela, between Alex Salmond's business

:13:32.:13:34.

approach and a... He was off to China, she gave off an image of

:13:35.:13:37.

Scotland is open for business which is not really there any more. I

:13:38.:13:42.

think they can see all sorts of other international perspectives,

:13:43.:13:45.

but what we have seen a important shift in the discourse that our

:13:46.:13:48.

economic and social policies had to go hand-in-hand. Guys like we have

:13:49.:13:50.

to leave it there. I'll be back at the

:13:51.:13:52.

same time next week.

:13:53.:13:55.

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