25/06/2017 Sunday Politics Scotland


25/06/2017

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:42.

After the Grenfell Tower disaster, 34 tower blocks in 17 council areas

:00:43.:00:47.

in England have failed emergency fire safety tests, but not

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every building that fails will be evacuated.

:00:51.:00:52.

The government promises Britain will be a strong global

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trading power after Brexit, as negotiations get under way,

:00:59.:01:01.

we'll ask the international trade minister how.

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As Jeremy Corbyn celebrates his new rock-star status

:01:05.:01:08.

with a trip to Glastonbury, will the Labour leader

:01:09.:01:13.

The new SNP leader at Westminster, Ian Blackford, explains why

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he thinks it's only a matter of time before the Scottish Government get

:01:19.:01:20.

And with me throughout, our own supergroup of political

:01:21.:01:36.

pundits who'll be wowing the crowds throughout the programme,

:01:37.:01:38.

Helen Lewis, Tim Shipman and Isabel Oakeshott.

:01:39.:01:40.

They'll also be tweeting using the hashtag bbcsp.

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First, though, the government has confirmed that over 30 tower blocks

:01:44.:01:46.

across England have now failed an emergency fire safety test,

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following the Grenfall Tower disaster in which 79 people

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According to the government the cladding from 34 tower blocks

:01:54.:02:01.

has been tested and all of them have failed the combustibility test.

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The government plans to examine up to

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600 blocks and claim they can test 100 a day.

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The areas affected so far include Manchester, Plymouth and Portsmouth

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as well as the London boroughs of Barnet, Brent, Camden

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and Hounslow; all the relevant landlords and fire services

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Camden has already evacuated residents from

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650 flats whilst other councils have introduced interim measures such

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as 24-hour fire warden patrols to mitigate the risk before

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When you look at the national scale of this, this goes beyond austerity

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and finger-pointing at individual councils, this is a clear national

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system failure for the country. I'm surprised the response has been as

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muted as it has been, and initially there was a huge response. It is

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striking how every single building they test seems to fail these

:03:02.:03:05.

regulations, so people are slightly confused about whether this is the

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regulations at fault or the cladding that is at fault and I think what is

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most alarming to people, the insecurity. Some people have been

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told to evacuate and that is what happened in Camden and they were

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told until late at night. It is difficult for people to take pets

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outcome and other people have been told to stay in the commendation

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that may or may not be flammable. They have put fire wardens in

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instead. There is a problem that people feel this is a problem about

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social housing but not all of these are about social housing, but about

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the neglect to people that several successive governments have shown.

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People will wonder why the building regulations allow or the building

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regulations were flouted in a way that allowed so much inflammable

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material to clad our buildings. If you look in other countries,

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America, Germany, some of this is banned, and some people said some of

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the stuff has been put up in this country has also been banned and

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this shows what a disaster housing policy has been in this country for

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a generation. Neither party has been able to get a grip on it. There are

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several failures of the Tory council but Labour was in charge of putting

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this stuff into housing associations, where the controls

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have not been very good over long period, and what we need to do is

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build more homes and every government announces they are going

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to build more homes. Hopefully using the right material. Yes, but none of

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these governors have been able to build enough homes and we have a

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crisis of stock where people are put into houses like battery hens,

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frankly, in places where most people would not want to take a second

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look. Looking at Grenfell Tower, if that had not been clad, if they had

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kept the old concrete facade committee would not have gone up in

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fire. This has been a failure of government with a small G, national

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and local, Labour and Conservatives. Absolutely. It is not just about

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residential accommodation, hospitals might have this material, I'm

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hearing, and schools. Politically the challenge for the government,

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there is a huge logistical and humanitarian challenge but also the

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politics of it, as you rightly say, that this isn't just something which

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is linked directly to Tory austerity. The government now, the

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initial shock has worn off, and the challenge for the government is to

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make it clear that this is not just their direct responsibility and the

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result of the Tory cuts agenda and there are plenty of Labour councils

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who also have responsibility. Given the national crisis and the national

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failure, the government needs to be seen to get a grip on this.

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Absolutely. Most MPs would say they... Their response has been

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slightly more convincing than it was early on, but there are still huge

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potential for this to snowball especially if we have other

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buildings, not just residential, affected. There has been a change in

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the national mood, you see this in the Conservative Party. The word

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austerity was barely mentioned. Philip Hammond has relaxed his

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targets. Local councils bore the brunt of the cuts and they won't

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take any more, there is that sense, the people are tired of that.

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Indeed. OK. The Government says it will deliver

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a Brexit deal which will allow the UK to become a powerful global

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trading nation with the EU This morning the Brexit Secretary,

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David Davis, told the BBC he was certain he'd be able to get

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a good trade deal with Brussels, in part because of pressure

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from businesses within the EU. I mean it's not just

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the German car industry, it's Bavarian farmers,

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French farmers, Italian white goods manufacturers,

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you name it. The balance of trade basically

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is 230 billion from us to them, They have a very strong interest

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in getting a good deal, at the end of the day,

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on all sides on trade. And I've been joined

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by the Trade Minister Mark Price. Welcome to the programme. There are

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five main national business organisations in Britain and all of

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them want minimal custom checks after Brexit between the UK and the

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EU, how can you do that if we are leaving the customs union? There's a

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difference between the customs union and the customs arrangements. It is

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not that binary, you are not either in or out, you can work which with

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ever party you want, you have customs arrangements, which work to

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the benefit of business. That would need to cover all of the EU? You

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can't do that in bilateral business with members of the EU, it needs to

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be all of them? The negotiations will be with the commission and they

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will work on behalf of all EU members. I attend the trade

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ministers meeting and I've been four times since Brexit, and the mood is

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very positive about the relationship they want with the UK going forward.

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We have frictionless trade by being in the customs union at the moment,

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you can import into this country, and then they go seamlessly to the

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rest of the EU because everything coming into the EU comes in on the

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same terms, but if we are not in the customs union any more, how can you

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have that frictionless trade? You look at Harris first of all, and at

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the moment we are tariff free, but if you look at the arrangement like

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the Canadian trade Guild, it is 98% tariff free, -- the trade deal. The

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Canadian deal is not a customs deal. What I'm asking you is about the

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stuff coming into Britain which at the moment can then go seamlessly to

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the rest of the EU, and will not be able to do so if we are not in the

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customs union. I'm trying to explain the preconditions for having a

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customs arrangements, the first is, can tariff the parable of the -- the

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first is tariff, and then at the moment we take 56% of our goods from

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outside the EU. We have electronic passing of documentation and I'm

:09:29.:09:33.

told that 96% will go through within six seconds, and so we are not a

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novice to this and we all be do this with countries all over the world.

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We trade with 163 countries around the world, we are not building from

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no experience and no base. We have a place that we are working from. To

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do it sector by sector could take a long wire which is maybe why the

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Chancellor is now talking about a transitional period for single

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market access may be membership, and the customs union, how long a

:10:01.:10:03.

transition period are we looking at? Who knows. We will see how we get

:10:04.:10:12.

on. One year, two years? Who knows. From the European and UK perspective

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we want a smooth transition and this is what trade ministers are saying

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across Europe, this is not just a British desire. I have heard

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interviews with several European parliamentarians who say they want

:10:25.:10:27.

to move to a smooth transition and they would like a period of time to

:10:28.:10:30.

do that if we can't do that inside the initial period. Will we be able

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to make free trade deals with countries outside the EU in this

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transition period? We have a host of arrangements at the moment, but it

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is not that simple. With the EU we are party to about 40 trade deals by

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the time we go, and we will work with those countries to transition

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them. But in the transition period, can we make a free-trade deal with

:10:55.:11:00.

America or China? Can we do that? We have set up nine working groups at

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the moment with 15 different countries and what we are working

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through is how do we make sure when we leave the EU that the current

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arrangements that we have are carried forward, Liam Fox last week

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was in America and there are 20 agreements with America. We can talk

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about the current trading relationship, how do we make things

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better for our businesses in those countries in the way that customs

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work and the way their businesses are handled and then we can start

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thinking about how do we shape a future deal. In a transition period,

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can we strike a free-trade deal with a third party? No, we can't. We

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can't sign or negotiate. During the transition period? This is during

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the two-year period, but in the transition period that depends what

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we agree with the EU. Businesses want tariff free trade to continue

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between the EU and the UK. What indications have you had that the EU

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will agree to this? Businesses who want tariff free trade to continue.

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Between the UK and the EU. In all the discussion that I've had with

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trade ministers, and I've spoken to them all over the last year, there

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is a great appetite to impose tariffs where none exist today and

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as I've mentioned, the Canadian deal is 98% tariff free but also today,

:12:30.:12:32.

what we have said, we will make sure that for the least developed

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country, 48 of them, we give them preferential access to the UK, no

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tariffs or rotors, and there's another group of countries that we

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give reduced access to as well. What about tariff free trade between the

:12:49.:12:53.

EU and the UK? I think they will be keen to give us that. But no yes,

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despite all these meetings. We have got to sit down and negotiate, but

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the spirit is a good one. People in Europe want to get into a good place

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with us, why? Because the trade surplus with the UK is... I know all

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the reasons. Euro France only runs a surplus with four countries and we

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are one of them. So the indications are good? Yes, around the world,

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since Brexit, I visited 31 countries and I've met with 70 ministers and I

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have seen this. Let me come onto immigration. Businesses have also

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called for a flexible system of skills and Labour, so what system do

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you imagine? You have heard from the government that we don't want to

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harm our economy, and in Europe we have heard very loud and clear that

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people want to be able to source the right people for their businesses.

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What will the system be? Tomorrow the Prime Minister is going to make

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an announcement. That is about EU citizens already here, but what will

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the broad principles be under which people from the EU can come here to

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work? That will be in the paper that will be set up, we have the

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immigration bill coming forward, but we don't want to harm the UK

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economy. What is the priority? In your manifesto you had a policy of

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reducing net migration to the tens of thousands, so what is the

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priority, hitting Matt Targett or a system that meets the flexible needs

:14:34.:14:40.

of the economy? -- that target. It is a difficult call. I would say

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meeting the needs of the economy are hugely important. What is more

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important? The part of the jigsaw that is missing is what happens to

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the shape of the Labour force in the UK as we move into the digital

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error. The British consortium have said they will need 900,000 fewer

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workers in retail in ten years' time in every industry is being reshaped,

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and to take a point in time and say this is right... I'm asking for a

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general principle, what is more important, hitting the target or

:15:13.:15:16.

keeping immigration that is flexible to the economy? If you asked me as a

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businessman, for 30 years, I would say it is through the success of

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business and the success of our economy that we can afford the

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social services that we want. As a government minister we need to work

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through over the course of the next 2-3 years, but Bill through

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Parliament and decide where we get to, we have said there is a target

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of tens of thousands, and my personal view, given the digital

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changes, that is a perfectly reasonable target for us.

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Business says what they really need is clarity. One year after we voted

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to leave, what clarity have you brought to these issues this

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morning? That is a very good question. I think we have set out

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the principles. You cannot tell me the principles of immigration, the

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principles on which the customs union will operate, or the economy

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or hitting a target will be more important for immigration. The Prime

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Minister has set out what we intend to achieve. Through the Queen's

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speech will bring a different bills that address these issues. They will

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be there for Parliament to discuss, there will be consultation papers

:16:31.:16:34.

and business can be involved with that. We will be consulting and

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there will be a vote. That is process. I'm afraid we have run out

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of time, but that is processed. What you want us to do is to be able to

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say this is definitively what we will be able to get, but there are

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two site. If I was buying a business in Waitrose, I couldn't tell you

:16:57.:17:01.

what the outcome would be. I was simply asking what the Government's

:17:02.:17:08.

aim was. That has clearly been set out by the Prime Minister. Thank

:17:09.:17:09.

you. Jeremy Corbyn confounded his critics

:17:10.:17:13.

in the general election, increasing Labour's share

:17:14.:17:15.

of the vote and securing So will the Corbynistas use

:17:16.:17:17.

the result to strengthen Our reporter Emma Vardy

:17:18.:17:20.

has been finding out. Enjoying superstar

:17:21.:17:23.

status at Glastonbury. Since when did being

:17:24.:17:28.

a politician become this cool? Do you know, politics is actually

:17:29.:17:32.

about everyday life. It's about all of us

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and what we dream and what we want and what we achieve and what we want

:17:39.:17:41.

for everybody else. # Staying out for the summer,

:17:42.:17:44.

playing games in the rain It's looking like the summer

:17:45.:17:53.

of love for Jeremy Corbyn. As he basks in his post-election

:17:54.:18:03.

glow, well, as much as you can bask So, is all that bitter infighting

:18:04.:18:06.

in the party a distant memory Jeremy will stay the Labour leader

:18:07.:18:13.

now as long as he wants to do so. He's come back from the dead

:18:14.:18:21.

in terms of the predictions and so he will remain Labour leader

:18:22.:18:24.

for as long as he wants. Let's recognise that another world

:18:25.:18:29.

is possible if we come together. Former Corbyn critics like John Mann

:18:30.:18:40.

MP have been eating humble pie. The big issue for Jeremy now is,

:18:41.:18:43.

is he going to hold his people in and stop any factional battling

:18:44.:18:46.

in the Labour Party, and there are people on both

:18:47.:18:49.

sides of the old divide in the Labour Party who love nothing

:18:50.:18:51.

better than internal wrangling. Or is he going to consolidate his

:18:52.:18:55.

position and bring the Labour Party together and be a potential

:18:56.:18:58.

Prime Minister in waiting? The centrist Labour group Progress

:18:59.:19:02.

which had been associated with some of Corbyn's harshest critics says

:19:03.:19:04.

now the party is more In the general election,

:19:05.:19:07.

the Labour Party worked together, Labour MPs put their strongest foot

:19:08.:19:27.

forward in getting re-elected in their seats the national campaign

:19:28.:19:29.

pulled through and party staff We have shown that when we pull

:19:30.:19:32.

together we are a strong force. # Staying out for the summer,

:19:33.:19:36.

staying up for the summer #. Before the election,

:19:37.:19:39.

a number of party rule changes had been up for debate as pro and

:19:40.:19:41.

anti-Corbyn factions looked for ways So has all that now being kicked

:19:42.:19:44.

into the long grass? Any attempts to try and undermine

:19:45.:19:48.

Tom Watson as deputy leader, appoint a second deputy leader,

:19:49.:19:50.

attack the party staff, change the party rules,

:19:51.:19:53.

will show the public out there that the Labour Party is more

:19:54.:19:55.

interested in itself rather But will also put at risk that

:19:56.:19:57.

unity, that is fragile and quite frankly now,

:19:58.:20:02.

is led from the top. The way in which internal

:20:03.:20:06.

hostilities would recommend The way in which internal

:20:07.:20:10.

hostilities would recommence would be if there was a return

:20:11.:20:13.

to some of the sectarianism that we So if there were attempts

:20:14.:20:17.

to deselect MPs and councillors, those MPs and councillors

:20:18.:20:21.

are going to fight If there are attempts to cross

:20:22.:20:23.

a limited number of policy red lines on things like Trident renewal,

:20:24.:20:31.

again that would cause And if there are attempts to change

:20:32.:20:33.

the rule book of the party in a way that just gives blatant partisan

:20:34.:20:43.

advantage, then again it would cause divisions to re-emerge,

:20:44.:20:45.

but there's no need for them to do On policy and personnel, the ball

:20:46.:20:48.

is in Jeremy Corbyn's court. There will be a debate

:20:49.:20:52.

at conference, though, on what some are calling

:20:53.:20:55.

the McDonnell Amendment. A rule change that would lower

:20:56.:20:57.

the number of nominations needed Those on the left of the party have

:20:58.:21:00.

been accused of plotting to make it easier for a left-wing candidate

:21:01.:21:06.

to stand for leadership to succeed I think that opinion at conference

:21:07.:21:09.

is finely balanced on that. Because the elections

:21:10.:21:20.

for constituency delegates seem to be on a knife edge

:21:21.:21:22.

between the left and the right. We will know the outcome of those

:21:23.:21:26.

around the 9th of July And then it all depends

:21:27.:21:29.

on the attitude taken by a couple of the big unions like

:21:30.:21:36.

the GMB and Unison, about this proposal than Unite

:21:37.:21:38.

and the more left-wing unions are. Meanwhile, here at the Jeremy Corbyn

:21:39.:21:46.

supporting Momentum HQ, they believe there could be another

:21:47.:21:57.

general election within six months and are remaining

:21:58.:22:00.

in full campaign mode. We're going to be targeting

:22:01.:22:02.

new marginals and we're going to be training thousands of activists

:22:03.:22:05.

in those marginal constituencies and we going to be developing

:22:06.:22:07.

new technological platforms to make it easy for people to get

:22:08.:22:09.

involved in the election. Safe to say, they're

:22:10.:22:12.

feeling rather vindicated. Many of those who were bitterly

:22:13.:22:14.

opposed to Jeremy Corbyn have eaten their words

:22:15.:22:18.

and have apologised. Look, in the general election

:22:19.:22:20.

campaign, we campaigned for all Labour candidates

:22:21.:22:24.

in our target seats and marginal seats, irrespective of where they

:22:25.:22:31.

stood in the past on Jeremy Corbyn. We helped win seats for candidates

:22:32.:22:36.

who supported Progress, just as hard as we helped win seats

:22:37.:22:40.

for those who had always supported Jeremy and that's the way

:22:41.:22:46.

we are going to carry on. Well, I think that will last

:22:47.:22:48.

till the next election because we all want to

:22:49.:22:52.

win the next election. # Staying out for the summer,

:22:53.:22:54.

staying out for the summer #. For now, he's the man of the moment,

:22:55.:23:02.

but is this performance the peak of his popularity, or the precursor

:23:03.:23:07.

to Labour winning power? Before the general election

:23:08.:23:11.

was called, a proxy-battle for the future of the Labour party

:23:12.:23:19.

was played out in the election of the general secretary

:23:20.:23:27.

of Unite, the union, The incumbent, Len McClusky,

:23:28.:23:29.

who had put his weight behind Jeremy Corbyn,

:23:30.:23:36.

faced a challenge from Gerard Coyne, who was seen to be the Labour

:23:37.:23:38.

moderates' choice. Gerard Coyne narrowly lost,

:23:39.:23:41.

and this week he was sacked from his Unite position

:23:42.:23:43.

as a regional secretary. Good morning. You say you have been

:23:44.:23:50.

the victim of a kangaroo court and a short trial, what do you mean by

:23:51.:23:55.

that? After 29 years' service with the union I found myself dismissed

:23:56.:24:01.

for a trumped up charge that related to the election but was about

:24:02.:24:05.

nothing that relates directly to my role as a regional secretary so it

:24:06.:24:10.

showed to me that defence now cannot be tolerated inside Unite and that's

:24:11.:24:16.

a very concerning situation. The union says you were sacked for

:24:17.:24:19.

misuse of data during the leadership election campaign. You say it's

:24:20.:24:23.

because you have the audacity to challenge Len McCluskey. What's the

:24:24.:24:27.

evidence to support your side? The independent body appointed by the

:24:28.:24:33.

union to oversee the election this week produced a report that said in

:24:34.:24:36.

relation to the data issue there was no evidence I breached any rules and

:24:37.:24:43.

no evidence I breached the election guidance so actually the union's own

:24:44.:24:47.

independent body has exonerated me this week. You said "It's beyond

:24:48.:24:52.

parody that I is a 30 year member of the Labour Party should be accused

:24:53.:25:02.

of harming Unite Labour relations by Len McCluskey's chief of staff..."

:25:03.:25:09.

What do you mean by that? The investigation and the decision

:25:10.:25:12.

reached actually shows a much more concerning element about the

:25:13.:25:18.

involvement in the campaign and election that reflects badly in

:25:19.:25:22.

terms of his position as a member of the Communist Party and the sort of

:25:23.:25:27.

quite frankly Stalinist approach to the treatment I have received. So

:25:28.:25:32.

actually it was a show trial I endured recently and I don't believe

:25:33.:25:35.

I have received a fair process at all. And in this, in your words show

:25:36.:25:42.

trial, did this Unite leadership regard you as an enemy of the

:25:43.:25:47.

proletariat? The truth is they were very keen to see the descent and the

:25:48.:25:52.

different vision I have got for Unite which was focused on our

:25:53.:25:56.

members and protecting them in a difficult set of circumstances. They

:25:57.:26:01.

wanted to stamp out that voice which was one which was articulated in a

:26:02.:26:05.

different way for the union to go in the future. But you had lost. Yes

:26:06.:26:12.

but on a very small majority, and there were thousands of Unite voters

:26:13.:26:16.

that didn't have a chance to vote, which is why I'm now mounting a

:26:17.:26:20.

legal challenge to the election results and we are going to make

:26:21.:26:25.

sure it is rerun and given the opportunity to those members. So you

:26:26.:26:30.

think you have a claim in law? To put a ten point claim into the

:26:31.:26:35.

certification Officer, that has already gone in challenging the

:26:36.:26:39.

result on ten individual counts as to how it was not properly run in

:26:40.:26:45.

the first place. Do you have confidence in the certification

:26:46.:26:48.

Officer in that process or do you think you might end up in the High

:26:49.:26:52.

Court? If the certification Officer doesn't rule in favour of what I

:26:53.:27:00.

think is a strong case coming have to ask the question what is this

:27:01.:27:04.

certification Officer for, in that case I will be considering the High

:27:05.:27:10.

Court. If you are right about the way you were treated, what does it

:27:11.:27:14.

say about British trade unionism in the 21st-century that you can be

:27:15.:27:17.

sacked by your union for standing up to the boss? I expect to have a

:27:18.:27:25.

robust debate in a democratic election and not to be punished for

:27:26.:27:32.

it. I did engage in what was quite an interesting debate through the

:27:33.:27:36.

election campaign, but I've also served the union the 29 years and

:27:37.:27:40.

for most employees if they have had that length of service, some

:27:41.:27:45.

consideration would have been given to that. But Len McCluskey has been

:27:46.:27:51.

re-elected leader, Jeremy Corbyn now rules the Labour Party unchallenged.

:27:52.:27:56.

Andrew Murray, who you say mounted the show trial against you, was a

:27:57.:28:01.

key part of Jeremy Corbyn's election campaign. It does look like you've

:28:02.:28:07.

lost on all fronts. Jeremy did exceptionally well in the general

:28:08.:28:11.

election campaign, he got young people involved, and it's not about

:28:12.:28:15.

a left or right issue in terms of the party, it's about where the

:28:16.:28:20.

party goes. My fear is that the way I've treated will start to give an

:28:21.:28:25.

influence in the Labour movement or generally in the Labour Party that

:28:26.:28:29.

starts to look like purges are acceptable. If Labour does that, the

:28:30.:28:34.

electorate will never forgive them for an internal battle rather than

:28:35.:28:37.

being the effective opposition they need to be. Are you saying that what

:28:38.:28:42.

you believe happened to you could happen to other people now in the

:28:43.:28:46.

Labour Party itself? I think there is a real danger of that. The

:28:47.:28:51.

reality is the very people involved at the top of Unite, involved in the

:28:52.:28:57.

disciplinary process with myself, they are influential figures in

:28:58.:29:01.

Labour and part of my campaign is that Unite is too intrinsically

:29:02.:29:04.

linked with the top of the Labour Party and ready to be focusing on a

:29:05.:29:08.

much stronger industrial agenda for the future. If you have been a

:29:09.:29:12.

member of the Labour Party for 30 years. We have now been dismissed

:29:13.:29:16.

from your job is regional secretary I think in the West Midlands area?

:29:17.:29:23.

That's right. Have you heard from the Labour leadership on this issue?

:29:24.:29:28.

I haven't, and in terms of the leadership it would be nice to hear

:29:29.:29:32.

from them because we lost seats in the West Midlands, we should have

:29:33.:29:39.

felt onto, where working-class vote did not stay with Labour and it's

:29:40.:29:43.

important we reach out to and engage with those communities and make sure

:29:44.:29:46.

they support Labour in the future. Gerard Coyne, thank you for being

:29:47.:29:51.

with us. I've been joined now from Leeds

:29:52.:29:55.

by Labour's Jon Trickett, Welcome to the programme. Jeremy

:29:56.:30:07.

Corbyn says he wants to unite the party behind him, so why didn't he

:30:08.:30:10.

use the Shadow Cabinet reshuffle to do just that? First of all, why

:30:11.:30:18.

would he change a winning team? We did a very good election campaign,

:30:19.:30:23.

if we did not -- even if we did not quite get over the line. The Shadow

:30:24.:30:26.

Cabinet worked very hard to get their result, but there are

:30:27.:30:30.

vacancies and they were used to reach out and we have brought in the

:30:31.:30:34.

man who stood against Jeremy not that long ago in a tough battle for

:30:35.:30:40.

the leadership. I think that shows a leader who is reaching out, but also

:30:41.:30:44.

wanting to make sure that he keeps a winning team. That is a reasonable

:30:45.:30:48.

decision for him to make. What do you say to Gerard Coyne, Labour

:30:49.:30:53.

member 30 years, who believes he has been purged from the Unite union and

:30:54.:31:00.

that could be about to happen to Labour moderates in the party? There

:31:01.:31:06.

will be no purge. We want everyone together, what is remarkable is,

:31:07.:31:11.

when the so-called coup happened last year, when the PLP turned

:31:12.:31:15.

against Jeremy, our poll rating collapsed and as soon as the party

:31:16.:31:20.

reunited for the election the poll rating began to increase and that is

:31:21.:31:25.

a lesson for everyone. The lesson has been learned by all of us and we

:31:26.:31:29.

will work together as United party moving forward, but what should be

:31:30.:31:33.

clear to everyone, we cannot go back to the Labour Party as it was

:31:34.:31:37.

previously. He had got to move forward with Jeremy in the direction

:31:38.:31:40.

in which he has laid out for the party and the country. What do you

:31:41.:31:44.

say to Paul Mason, former journalists. -- former journalist.

:31:45.:31:50.

He said to Blair writes that if you want a centrist party, this is not

:31:51.:31:54.

going to be it for the next ten years -- Blairites. He said you have

:31:55.:32:01.

got to form your own party. He did look a bit excitable when I saw a

:32:02.:32:08.

piece by him on the internet, but the centre of gravity, it has

:32:09.:32:11.

changed in politics, and what was the centre is no longer the centre.

:32:12.:32:15.

The idea that a country should be run for a few at the expense of the

:32:16.:32:19.

many is one which I think has been largely destroyed in this election

:32:20.:32:23.

campaign. The centre has moved and the party has recognised with the

:32:24.:32:27.

new centre is and we now need to unite and begin to roll out the

:32:28.:32:31.

changes. There are many which need to be done on Jeremy's agenda. I say

:32:32.:32:36.

this to the party committee of Jeremy and the leadership the tools

:32:37.:32:40.

and he will finish the job -- the party, give Jeremy and the

:32:41.:32:50.

leadership the tours. If they want a more centre-left party, they are not

:32:51.:32:53.

going to get it? They should follow Paul Mason's advice? If they want

:32:54.:32:59.

that. We have heard many of them repenting on their sins in the last

:33:00.:33:02.

couple of days. That is another matter! LAUGHTER

:33:03.:33:09.

They have recognised there are new ways of campaigning we have got to

:33:10.:33:13.

listen to young people and see how they organise, but also our politics

:33:14.:33:16.

has changed as a party and it has resonated with the country. Gerard

:33:17.:33:20.

Coyne spoke about working class voters. I began writing about the

:33:21.:33:26.

problem with working class voters in 2005 at the height of the Tony Blair

:33:27.:33:30.

years and the party has more work to do in those communities and across

:33:31.:33:34.

the country to win the trust of everybody's so that we can serve

:33:35.:33:39.

them in government. Working-class voters swung to the Tories in the

:33:40.:33:42.

last election, middle-class voters went your way. There has been a

:33:43.:33:48.

problem with manual workers for some time, I don't need to be told about

:33:49.:33:51.

that, I'd been writing about it for ten years. I was a building worker

:33:52.:33:57.

for a while and we have got more work to do to regain the trust of

:33:58.:34:01.

these people, but some of the proposals will work for those people

:34:02.:34:03.

and we have got to bring them back in. Do you back the left wing move

:34:04.:34:09.

to lower the threshold of MPs needed to stand for the leadership? We will

:34:10.:34:15.

see where we get to, I'm in favour of democratising the Labour Party.

:34:16.:34:19.

Are you in favour or not? We will see where we get to. It has been a

:34:20.:34:25.

long-running debate. Do you think the threshold for anyone who wants

:34:26.:34:28.

to run for leadership should be cut to 5% of MPs? I'm not going to

:34:29.:34:35.

express my view at the moment, but when there is a leadership election

:34:36.:34:38.

it is important that every tendency within the party is represented on

:34:39.:34:42.

the ballot paper. And the rule that prevents a section of the right or

:34:43.:34:47.

the left or the centre from being on the ballot paper is a bad rule. That

:34:48.:34:52.

is an argument for lowering the threshold. We have got to look

:34:53.:34:56.

carefully at how we conduct leadership elections and that debate

:34:57.:35:00.

will be had. That far left figure we had in that film there, he said the

:35:01.:35:07.

Corbyn way of doing things is a successful way, and that is

:35:08.:35:14.

suggesting that you join the Corbyn bandwagon, you don't try to change

:35:15.:35:17.

it, that's the way forward the Labour Party? All parties have

:35:18.:35:22.

different points of view, and so is the Labour Party. You test ideas in

:35:23.:35:27.

action and what happened in the general election showed the idea

:35:28.:35:31.

that Jeremy has had and are successful, we have more than

:35:32.:35:35.

doubled our size. Over 600,000 members. You lost the third election

:35:36.:35:41.

in a row. We got the highest share of the vote, the largest number of

:35:42.:35:47.

votes. No, you didn't. The Tories did. I haven't finished my sentence.

:35:48.:35:55.

Labour has received since 1997. You lost. Of course, and that is why I

:35:56.:36:02.

have said you we have got to work harder to build confidence in people

:36:03.:36:06.

especially working people in our politics and the way we are going.

:36:07.:36:11.

Can I clarify the Labour position on Brexit? Jeremy Corbyn and John

:36:12.:36:17.

McDonnell has said the Labour position is to leave membership of

:36:18.:36:20.

the single market, so why have over 50 Labour politicians signed a

:36:21.:36:24.

letter to the Guardian in favour of membership of the single market?

:36:25.:36:29.

That is not exactly where we are. We are taking the view that we need to

:36:30.:36:34.

have access to all of the tariff rearrangements which exist within

:36:35.:36:38.

the customs union and the single market. What is the policy on

:36:39.:36:43.

membership? Let me finish. It is important to answer the question. I

:36:44.:36:49.

will give you a full answer, and the answer is, we are not wedded to any

:36:50.:36:54.

particular institutional framework, we are pragmatic about it. We will

:36:55.:37:01.

see how the negotiations go. We do not have to do one thing or another

:37:02.:37:05.

in terms of institutional relationships but we need a Brexit

:37:06.:37:08.

which works for jobs and growth and also for the protections which

:37:09.:37:12.

working people have also how that comes remains to be seen. I was

:37:13.:37:19.

asking for clarification. Is the Labour policy to remain members of

:37:20.:37:24.

the single market or not? Alp policy is to secure all of the rights which

:37:25.:37:31.

exist, tariff free access, within the single market and the customs

:37:32.:37:35.

union, and we are not saying that a particular institutional form is

:37:36.:37:39.

something we've always ourselves to at this stage. Are you for or

:37:40.:37:45.

against remaining members of the single market? It is not a question

:37:46.:37:50.

of four it is about securing the best possible arrangement for our

:37:51.:37:57.

economy and working people -- it is not a question of for or against.

:37:58.:38:04.

The labour MP Clive Lewis said Thatcher economic dogma was to blame

:38:05.:38:10.

for Grenfell Tower, but we know many tower blocks have been clad in the

:38:11.:38:16.

same material by Labour councils, was that also the fault of

:38:17.:38:21.

Thatcherite economic dogma? It is very difficult to say exactly what

:38:22.:38:25.

happened, and I worked in the building industry for many years and

:38:26.:38:28.

I know the regulations were very tight. It now looks as though

:38:29.:38:32.

something happened with the building regulations. And apart from that, we

:38:33.:38:39.

can't say exactly what lies behind this. By Tory and Labour councils,

:38:40.:38:45.

that is my point, both parties have questions to answer. Yes, but the

:38:46.:38:55.

government have sat on the recommendations, like the

:38:56.:38:56.

recommendation of this printer systems, they have sat on those

:38:57.:39:00.

documents for years. -- sprinkler systems. Do you think all parties

:39:01.:39:08.

should stop trying to make political capital out of what is effectively a

:39:09.:39:14.

national disaster? And tried to get to the bottom of a system explained

:39:15.:39:18.

the and try to do better regardless of the party? Yes, everyone should

:39:19.:39:23.

do the same. The sooner we get the results of the inquiry the better,

:39:24.:39:26.

but if there are decisions which can be made sooner than the public

:39:27.:39:29.

inquiry they should be made and implemented. Jon Trickett, thanks

:39:30.:39:32.

for joining us. Good morning, and welcome

:39:33.:39:44.

to Sunday Politics Scotland. The SNP's Westminster leader,

:39:45.:39:46.

Ian Blackford, says Scotland So, how exactly does he propose

:39:47.:39:51.

to help secure a place Michael Gove has called it

:39:52.:39:56.

"a sea of opportunity", but is leaving Europe necessarily

:39:57.:40:01.

good news for all those And in a week where those Brexit

:40:02.:40:04.

talks finally got underway and Thersea May received an early

:40:05.:40:12.

rebuff from Donald Tusk, I'll be getting a Brussels'

:40:13.:40:15.

insider's view on the trials ahead. The SNP don't have their problems

:40:16.:40:22.

to seek after the election. They lost 21 seats and some leading

:40:23.:40:25.

figures in the party have accepted that their call for a second

:40:26.:40:28.

independence referendum didn't do them any favours -

:40:29.:40:32.

they've still to make clear whether they will continue

:40:33.:40:34.

to demand another referendum. But the party sees

:40:35.:40:37.

an opportunity with a minority It's now demanding that the Scottish

:40:38.:40:39.

Government should have a place But how do they plan

:40:40.:40:43.

to achieve that? I'm joined now by the new SNP leader

:40:44.:40:47.

at Westminster, Ian Blackford - he's the man who succeeds

:40:48.:40:51.

Angus Robertson, who lost his Usually not the Scottish Government

:40:52.:41:07.

involved in the direct negotiations, can we clarify that? Do you want

:41:08.:41:11.

negotiations with the joint ministerial committee or are you

:41:12.:41:15.

saying that you want a place at the table in Brussels in the

:41:16.:41:20.

negotiations? Bye what has to happen is that there has to be a meeting of

:41:21.:41:28.

the ministration in Edinburgh and hopefully the administration in

:41:29.:41:30.

Belfast as well. It's important that the government recognises that the

:41:31.:41:35.

devolved into ministration need to be involved. We are asking that the

:41:36.:41:40.

Scottish Government be represented wary are. -- where we are. She

:41:41.:41:50.

Theresa May got a bloody nose, she got defeated in the a minority in

:41:51.:41:57.

the Commons. We accept that the United Kingdom is coming out of the

:41:58.:42:02.

EU, but we wanted treaty to represent the interests of Scotland.

:42:03.:42:07.

I think that there is an indication that people do not want to lose the

:42:08.:42:15.

access to the single market. White on your idea of negotiations, I'm

:42:16.:42:22.

sure you're British government will say yes we will have joint meetings

:42:23.:42:27.

with the ministerial committee. An actual involvement in the talks in

:42:28.:42:33.

Brussels, they may possibly say no, we're not doing that it will all get

:42:34.:42:37.

too confusing. What do you do in that case? What pressure can you

:42:38.:42:42.

exert? I think the government has to recognise its position. It is a

:42:43.:42:49.

minority. But we are trained to do is seek a compromise that goes back

:42:50.:42:51.

to a document published by the Scottish Government in December. We

:42:52.:42:58.

haven't actually had a formal rejection. We need to say to the

:42:59.:43:02.

government, look you got a responsibility to try and bring the

:43:03.:43:07.

devolved nations of the UK together. We respect the position of the UK

:43:08.:43:11.

Government and respect the decision that was taken to come out of the

:43:12.:43:15.

EU, but we are equally tried to make sure that our demand to remain in

:43:16.:43:20.

the single market, for the different problems of defending an Arsenal

:43:21.:43:22.

interest in Scotland and the jobs and living standards is important. I

:43:23.:43:27.

think people in the country want that and the government of the

:43:28.:43:31.

United Kingdom should recognise that. If you did get your idea of

:43:32.:43:35.

Scottish representation in the next round of talks in Brussels, along

:43:36.:43:42.

with the rest of the bridges negotiating team that macro British

:43:43.:43:46.

Darts Organisation team prop Tom presumably you would request in

:43:47.:43:53.

advance. One thing the government would find intolerable is if

:43:54.:43:58.

representatives from Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland who were

:43:59.:44:05.

disagreeing with their negotiators? I think there is a way of fashioning

:44:06.:44:08.

that and that is the position that the government had never taken. We

:44:09.:44:11.

are seeking a compromise with the UK Government in the interest of

:44:12.:44:17.

Scotland and to extent with the people of the United Kingdom as

:44:18.:44:20.

well. We need some humility, it is very clear that that the country

:44:21.:44:31.

want to be represented and that the only thoughts and that they have a

:44:32.:44:36.

say in these territories? One bit of pressure you could apply is to

:44:37.:44:40.

threaten to vote against a legislative consent motion for the

:44:41.:44:44.

Great Repeal Bill. The problem with this that the Supreme Court has

:44:45.:44:50.

already decided that Scotland can stop that Bill and can't stop

:44:51.:44:56.

Brexit, it's not much of a threat? Nobody is threatening anything at

:44:57.:44:59.

the moment. The important thing is that we now know that there is going

:45:00.:45:03.

to be a motion that will have to come from the Scottish Parliament.

:45:04.:45:07.

What we are saying to the government is let's work together and affect a

:45:08.:45:12.

compromise that respect your position and respect ours, as well.

:45:13.:45:16.

It's about trying to behave in a responsible manner, recognise a

:45:17.:45:18.

mandate we have from the people of Scotland and staging the UK

:45:19.:45:23.

Government, would you have to do is do the right thing. Acknowledge the

:45:24.:45:27.

position that you do not have this position for a hard Brexit. The UK

:45:28.:45:30.

Government says it wants to main trade with Europe, so do we, our

:45:31.:45:36.

point is that has to come through access to the single market and the

:45:37.:45:39.

customs union. Many other people, not just on the SNP, but in wider

:45:40.:45:43.

society and people who have been elevated to the last of that the

:45:44.:45:49.

House of Lords have liquidate the Scottish Government must be rest

:45:50.:45:54.

presented. I think that must be respected. In your new role you have

:45:55.:46:00.

said that the SNP group at Westminster would be happy to bring

:46:01.:46:03.

down the Tory government at any time. Are you really? When I have

:46:04.:46:10.

said is that we have a job to do to represent the people of Scotland.

:46:11.:46:14.

Brexit is of course a clear priority. The second thing of course

:46:15.:46:17.

is that there is no authority for posterity. One of the things that we

:46:18.:46:20.

are hearing is that there is likely to be a deal for Northern Ireland

:46:21.:46:24.

and if there is investment in Northern Ireland, which I would

:46:25.:46:29.

welcome, that Scotland's interest is properly defensive. Tee defended.

:46:30.:46:43.

Defended. How happy to bring them occurring in question are -- the

:46:44.:46:53.

Tory government? If the Tories are acting against a piece of Scotland

:46:54.:46:55.

and we would look at that at the time. But let's make sure that we

:46:56.:47:00.

can get effective opposition to government that we can challenge the

:47:01.:47:03.

austerity in general and if we can do the things I think we will have

:47:04.:47:06.

something that the people of Scotland can celebrate with us. Can

:47:07.:47:11.

expose my the SNP did not vote to bring down the last Tory government?

:47:12.:47:17.

Well, we had a ridiculous situation where there was known need for an

:47:18.:47:21.

election at that stage. We pointed that out. It really was about the

:47:22.:47:24.

Conservatives looking out of the own interest and that spectacularly

:47:25.:47:33.

backfired. We are not going to go against the mechanism that the

:47:34.:47:37.

Tories put in place. Even though we've lost seats, I'm delighted that

:47:38.:47:42.

we are still the largest party in Scotland, the Conservatives in the

:47:43.:47:45.

Westminster love to be in the position that we are... I'm sure

:47:46.:47:50.

they would, but the point is, when even the Tories voted to bring down

:47:51.:47:54.

the Tory government, the SNP didn't you have stained? -- abstinent. The

:47:55.:48:04.

Tories about than ever in their own interest. Many Labour MPs didn't. At

:48:05.:48:11.

the end of the day it was the Tories try to seek a narrow party advantage

:48:12.:48:13.

for themselves but it didn't work. It was a foolish thing to do and a

:48:14.:48:21.

game played at Westminster. The second independence referendum,

:48:22.:48:25.

people have said that that has played a role in the reduction of

:48:26.:48:30.

seats that you mentioned. What do think the SNP should do about that

:48:31.:48:35.

now? Nicola has made it very close that she is going to... She is

:48:36.:48:42.

consulting within the party now. I've been engaged in discussions

:48:43.:48:44.

with nickel and others and we will wait and see and other First

:48:45.:48:49.

Minister Israel to give a judgment. -- is rated a dozen. What is

:48:50.:48:54.

important is that we are going into negotiations. When you saying is it

:48:55.:49:02.

every other member of the European Union and Scotland should be able to

:49:03.:49:06.

have their say of the final exit the bracket. So you think that the SNP

:49:07.:49:15.

should still say... Use of the SNP should still say that this would be

:49:16.:49:19.

a second referendum customer once Nicola has reflected on the election

:49:20.:49:22.

results, of course we will come forward with our proposals and

:49:23.:49:25.

proposition on how we will move forward, both on the syllabus at --

:49:26.:49:32.

on Brexit and posterity. -- austerity. It does seem rather

:49:33.:49:38.

peculiar and ensure some of your critics with a ludicrous that as the

:49:39.:49:44.

leader of the Scottish National Party, at Westminster, that you can

:49:45.:49:49.

answer simple questions on of all issues the process of getting

:49:50.:49:53.

independence for Scotland? What I'm doing is concentrating on the job

:49:54.:49:56.

that I have along with my colleagues in Westminster which is can the

:49:57.:50:04.

upper Scotland -- standing up for Scotland. It's making sure that we

:50:05.:50:08.

get the offer Scotland on Brexit, challenging honours 30 -- on

:50:09.:50:16.

austerity. But I have said we will make a judgment based on what has

:50:17.:50:18.

happened in the election campaign and we have a strong message that we

:50:19.:50:22.

can take forward for the people of Scotland. The SNP is the party of

:50:23.:50:25.

Scottish independent, more than ever. But we must do more than ever

:50:26.:50:31.

is protecting Scottish interest in Brexit and make sure that there is

:50:32.:50:37.

an alternative to austerity. So, the policy from audio just said is to

:50:38.:50:40.

leave the idea of an independent referee and on the table... Hang on,

:50:41.:50:46.

you said earlier on... That they should never... I'm focusing on the

:50:47.:50:57.

short-term opportunities... So the policy is not to talk about it? What

:50:58.:51:01.

they said is that Nicola will reflect that and in due course that

:51:02.:51:06.

she will come out and say what the position of the SNP government is.

:51:07.:51:09.

We will have to leave it there, Ian Blackford, thank you very much.

:51:10.:51:13.

This week's Queen's Speech was pretty short by anybody's standards.

:51:14.:51:15.

Lacking a majority, with much of her election

:51:16.:51:17.

manifesto shredded and, at this point, without even a deal

:51:18.:51:19.

with the DUP to support her, Prime Minister Theresa May has

:51:20.:51:23.

decided that her two-year parliamentary programme should

:51:24.:51:27.

One of those bills that was announced concerned fishing -

:51:28.:51:32.

it will aim to set out a new way of regulating the industry.

:51:33.:51:35.

That may prove a slippery task, because not everybody

:51:36.:51:37.

In Peterhead on Friday, the UK's new Environment Secretary Michael Gove

:51:38.:51:55.

was treading carefully. He discussed the future of fishing post Brexit.

:51:56.:51:58.

As the country charts a new course, that is one bit of EU legislation

:51:59.:52:07.

the keen Brexiteer is happy to throw overboard. The Common fisheries

:52:08.:52:09.

policy has been an environmental and economic disaster, devastating for

:52:10.:52:11.

the industry, especially here. It also meant we have not been able to

:52:12.:52:18.

manage fish stocks to ensure the renewable resource is replenished

:52:19.:52:21.

for the future. Many in the industry agree with him on the common

:52:22.:52:26.

fisheries policy, but not all. The EU provides access to a huge market,

:52:27.:52:34.

particularly for creel fishermen on Scotland's West Coast. This is a

:52:35.:52:40.

very high premium shellfish. Some of them are concerned the valuable

:52:41.:52:47.

trade might start to dry up. This week's Queen's Speech included a new

:52:48.:52:50.

fisheries Bill, but there is precious little detail about how

:52:51.:52:52.

that will support fishing communities. They will want the

:52:53.:52:57.

backbone of the country, but have faced declining. -- they were once

:52:58.:53:07.

the backbone. Glasgow's Briggate, used to be big Fish market.

:53:08.:53:20.

Scotland's fishing industry is still going strong, though much reduced.

:53:21.:53:23.

Its leaders say that they want a place at the top table when Brexit

:53:24.:53:33.

The Fisherman Association represent 60% of the fishermen on the

:53:34.:53:58.

coast,... It is generally happy to say farewell to the EU, but wants

:53:59.:54:01.

its members to be at the heart of any new policies. People were making

:54:02.:54:04.

decisions in Brussels that could affect small communities, but they

:54:05.:54:06.

probably didn't realise how much it was affecting these small

:54:07.:54:08.

communities, and I think now we have a chance to change that, at that in

:54:09.:54:10.

the future both Westminster Government is a Scottish

:54:11.:54:12.

governments, regardless of who is in charge, will involve fishermen in

:54:13.:54:14.

going forward. The industry's members may sometimes want different

:54:15.:54:16.

things. Any new policies have to recognise that. Then, of course, it

:54:17.:54:19.

is not just about profit. There is also the environment. Fishing is a

:54:20.:54:24.

very complex business, and you have the inshore fishermen governed by

:54:25.:54:28.

rules set within the United Kingdom prematurely, and bigger offshore

:54:29.:54:31.

vessels primarily working within rules of the common fisheries

:54:32.:54:35.

policy. Of course there will be differences between those groups.

:54:36.:54:41.

What is really take bid key is that whatever the outcome of the

:54:42.:54:47.

negotiations, the fishing industry has the highest credentials. Fish

:54:48.:54:57.

stocks, jobs and export markets. As the sun sets, government and

:54:58.:54:58.

industry have a long journey ahead. Well, to discuss some of those

:54:59.:55:04.

issues in more detail are Bertie Armstrong,

:55:05.:55:05.

the chief executive of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation,

:55:06.:55:07.

and Chris Williams, project leader in fisheries and marine environment

:55:08.:55:09.

at the New Economics Foundation. Bertie Armstrong, can I ask you

:55:10.:55:18.

about how you think fisheries should operate? There has been a lot of

:55:19.:55:21.

political rhetoric about some people saying that all controllable

:55:22.:55:27.

fisheries should come to Scotland after Brexit, and others saying that

:55:28.:55:30.

bits of it should be with London and bits should be with Edinburgh. From

:55:31.:55:35.

a fishing point of view, would you want everything default, or are

:55:36.:55:38.

there aspects of the fishing industry that would be better run

:55:39.:55:43.

from the UK? The whole question is much more simple than that. The sea

:55:44.:55:47.

of opportunity represented by this needs to have five seconds of

:55:48.:55:54.

information. When we joined the Common fisheries industry, everyone

:55:55.:56:00.

did as much as the good, and that was due to common access to water

:56:01.:56:04.

is. When it became a downward spiral of overfishing and had to be limits,

:56:05.:56:08.

the opportunity was sheer dot proportionally with what your track

:56:09.:56:13.

record was when you've finished everywhere as hard as you like. So,

:56:14.:56:23.

60% of our fish leave with non-UK fishing nations, which needs fixing.

:56:24.:56:28.

That is the sea of opportunity. And the return of control and

:56:29.:56:37.

sovereignty, which will happen automatically, will be the advantage

:56:38.:56:39.

that comes to the entire fishing industry. I get that, what I am

:56:40.:56:46.

asking you is whether what you have just described would best be done

:56:47.:56:49.

entirely, I do not think anyone doubts that some control over

:56:50.:56:53.

fisheries will come to Edinburgh, but is it a good thing if all of it

:56:54.:56:59.

does? Or are there aspects that would be better if there were rules

:57:00.:57:02.

for fishing boats that were the same across the UK. There are two macro

:57:03.:57:07.

levels of government, one of them as day to day management which is

:57:08.:57:12.

devolved already and will stay default. The big bit is the

:57:13.:57:17.

international negotiations for fishing opportunity. We're talking

:57:18.:57:21.

about 1 million of mackerel, half a million tonnes of herring and so on.

:57:22.:57:27.

A really big or producing industry. Those negotiations on the

:57:28.:57:28.

international stage, and of scores international stage, and of scores

:57:29.:57:34.

-- of course Scotland's interest must be protected. When we're

:57:35.:57:40.

talking about mackerel or blue whiting, on the international stage,

:57:41.:57:42.

you would expect Scotland to lead and have a veto. If you're talking

:57:43.:57:51.

about channel cod or place in Seoul, it would be ridiculous for the

:57:52.:57:57.

Scottish voice to be in charge. -- plaice and sole. There are already

:57:58.:58:03.

established things in place. But we need to make sure the right voices

:58:04.:58:07.

at the table speaking for the right thing. We will not tolerate a

:58:08.:58:14.

constitutional arm wrestle, when one is not required. It is obvious how

:58:15.:58:16.

this should be organised, with the majority voice speaking on behalf of

:58:17.:58:24.

that Scott, and the minority voice speaking on behalf of the other. Are

:58:25.:58:29.

you concerned there may be a free for all? For all the criticism of

:58:30.:58:34.

the common fisheries policy but cod stocks have recovered dramatically.

:58:35.:58:39.

Is the danger that once Brexit happens, whatever the international

:58:40.:58:42.

agreements are, that there will be some sort of free for all? Yes,

:58:43.:58:47.

there are a few different things to say. The first is that over the last

:58:48.:58:52.

decade, as you rightly identified, lots of the Northern stocks are

:58:53.:58:56.

improving and I over the last ten years, the UK large-scale fleet is

:58:57.:59:02.

the most profitable in Europe, running at 15% years ago, by 2014

:59:03.:59:08.

they reach 35%. It is astounding and a success story in large part

:59:09.:59:14.

because of our shared management within the common fisheries policy.

:59:15.:59:17.

There is also a risk of overfishing when individual countries that do

:59:18.:59:24.

not have a shared management planning sure there are quarters.

:59:25.:59:27.

The final point is one that relate to the earlier point about

:59:28.:59:31.

differences in the industry. He's very correct in identifying the

:59:32.:59:36.

large pelagic stocks of the North of Scotland that represents a big sea

:59:37.:59:41.

of opportunity for his members but he also correctly identifies that in

:59:42.:59:46.

the English Channel there is a sea of risk for small-scale fishermen

:59:47.:59:50.

not own the rights. They represent three quarters of the fishing fleet,

:59:51.:59:57.

but they are scrapping it out for 1.5% of the quota. So they are

:59:58.:00:00.

concerned that fair distribution of quarter has devolved. Those same

:00:01.:00:06.

small-scale fishermen are very highly dependent on exports, as your

:00:07.:00:12.

piece identified, especially shellfish, to France, Italy and

:00:13.:00:15.

Spain, and they are concerned about the impact of tariffs and other

:00:16.:00:21.

things. Bertie Armstrong, what is venting your members doing what they

:00:22.:00:23.

have done in the past after breakfast and fishing out of the

:00:24.:00:30.

sea? That is dismissive, -- in the past after Brexit. That is

:00:31.:00:34.

dismissive and insulting. The Scottish fishing fleet has never

:00:35.:00:38.

been smaller, and the reduction in stocks is to do with sacrifices

:00:39.:00:42.

among the fleet. It has happened in spite of the common fishing policy.

:00:43.:00:51.

There is self-interest in that. Why on earth would we wish to destroy

:00:52.:00:56.

the means of only if lewd? The simple answer is it has happened

:00:57.:01:02.

before. The Canadians wiped out their own cod stock. Yes, but look

:01:03.:01:05.

at the record of the Scottish fishing industry over the last

:01:06.:01:11.

decade. You will see an entirely different position. It is not one

:01:12.:01:18.

hacking through lessons of history, it is solid evidence of what

:01:19.:01:21.

happened over the last decade and a half. So, the distribution of stocks

:01:22.:01:28.

between -- catching opportunity between sectors is a source of

:01:29.:01:36.

debate, which will continue. The important point to note is the will

:01:37.:01:42.

be more opportunity for distribution. Chris Williams,

:01:43.:01:46.

briefly, I think he has conceded there will be international

:01:47.:01:49.

negotiations, which will largely be with the EU because of its EU boats

:01:50.:01:55.

that want quotas in these waters. How will that work? Something like

:01:56.:02:03.

80% of Danish fish are caught in UK waters. They will lose their jobs if

:02:04.:02:07.

we didn't negotiate some deal with them? It is fair to say that there

:02:08.:02:16.

are lots of European countries that fish our waters, they are landing

:02:17.:02:21.

four times UK vessels within Audi exclusive economic zone. But if we

:02:22.:02:27.

were to man that additional 650,000 tonnes of ourselves, do we have the

:02:28.:02:32.

capacity to catch it and process it and market it? Those are questions

:02:33.:02:35.

Bertie will probably have the answer to. Briefly, Bertie. Yes, we have

:02:36.:02:43.

the capacity to catch. The law will change, and with the greatest regret

:02:44.:02:47.

and sympathy for Danish colleagues, what will happen to them will happen

:02:48.:02:51.

to us -- will be what happened two hours after excellent. The

:02:52.:02:55.

sovereignty of the resource changes so they are losers and winners. That

:02:56.:03:01.

is the consequence. The winners will sustainably be us, in the United

:03:02.:03:06.

Kingdom. Having said that... Sorry, we have to leave it there.

:03:07.:03:10.

Well, it's been quite a week in Europe.

:03:11.:03:11.

The long-awaited Brexit talks finally got underway,

:03:12.:03:13.

but there was a lukewarm response to Theresa May's summit proposal

:03:14.:03:16.

I'm joined by Brussels' watcher Ryan Heath for his take

:03:17.:03:20.

on events so far and a look at what lies ahead.

:03:21.:03:26.

What do you think, we know the reaction in Europe has been pretty

:03:27.:03:35.

half-hearted to the individual -- the initial proposals on

:03:36.:03:40.

citizenships. More broadly, what approach are they taking at the

:03:41.:03:45.

moment. The key strength beer has is it as being very united, which is

:03:46.:03:50.

something that is in short supply on the British side of the

:03:51.:03:53.

negotiations. Soak in Brussels people were annoyed at the way she

:03:54.:04:05.

offered the citizenship discussions. They did not expect her to come

:04:06.:04:09.

through the side door whether it. But they have united position, and

:04:10.:04:14.

the UK seems to be more defining its ability to be strong, to host seeks

:04:15.:04:21.

it it can be or its position can be, rather than havoc mobilises the

:04:22.:04:25.

country behind it. So people here in Brussels are comfortable at the

:04:26.:04:27.

moment, but frustrated at the way the UK Government is handling the

:04:28.:04:29.

situation. The British government keeps saying, David Davis has been

:04:30.:04:34.

on television this morning, saying people in Europe, they want to do a

:04:35.:04:39.

free trade deal, they want to do a tariff free deal with us, they want

:04:40.:04:45.

to let us have access to Europe, and for them to have access to the UK

:04:46.:04:51.

with the minimum of hassle. Are those the vibes in Brussels, that

:04:52.:04:53.

everyone cannot wait to accommodate the United Kingdom? It is not quite

:04:54.:04:57.

that they cannot wait to accommodate the UK, but they realise that the

:04:58.:05:02.

economic interest is interest in doing the deal. The UK is

:05:03.:05:07.

fundamentally correct that assessment, but EU is also to take a

:05:08.:05:11.

hit if it means preserving the single market and it means sending a

:05:12.:05:15.

lesson to others who might want to leave. The UK could be the victim of

:05:16.:05:20.

the EU willing to stick to its guns. But hopefully they are willing to

:05:21.:05:23.

compromise and both sides are willing to simply put common sense

:05:24.:05:26.

positions at the table, rather than a wind loss situation. Unless all

:05:27.:05:38.

the discussions that year about trading goods, but Britain is

:05:39.:05:43.

largely a trait -- a service industry. If there are parallel

:05:44.:05:51.

willingness to negotiate free access for British services along with

:05:52.:05:58.

goods? That an excellent point and, yes there is the great dirty secret

:05:59.:06:03.

of the EU is that it treats the single market as it sacred cow. The

:06:04.:06:13.

EU defines itself as being. It doesn't really exist much for the

:06:14.:06:19.

services sector, so the single market is a bit of a myth. It has to

:06:20.:06:25.

do it via service trade deals because it doesn't exist

:06:26.:06:29.

independently of the trade deal. So there is a strong interest to keep

:06:30.:06:33.

on a centrist track and they would just like to have a stable

:06:34.:06:35.

government to negotiate with and they want to know that the UK is

:06:36.:06:39.

going to be there in six months or problems time. That is where if the

:06:40.:06:43.

UK can provide an front there can be a deal. Ryan Heath, thank you very

:06:44.:06:51.

much. I have to just bring some sadness that it's just been

:06:52.:06:57.

announced that Gordon Wilson, the former SNP leader, has died. He

:06:58.:07:03.

passed away earlier in hospital. He was leader of the next SNP from 1979

:07:04.:07:12.

to 1990. And as a regular guest on this programme. Time now for a look

:07:13.:07:17.

at the week ahead. With me now are author

:07:18.:07:23.

and journalist Katie Grant, who's alongside Sunday Times columnist

:07:24.:07:30.

and former SNP strategic communications director,

:07:31.:07:32.

Kevin Pringle. wrote Kevin that is sad news about

:07:33.:07:38.

good and Wilson, who will be less. Very sad indeed, my condolences to

:07:39.:07:42.

his family. I first worked with the SNP way back in 1989 and Gordon was

:07:43.:07:47.

the leader. He held that seat of Dundee East on the way through the

:07:48.:07:53.

1980s and very well many ways and untypical seat, and urban seat. He

:07:54.:07:58.

kept the party going through difficult times and three better

:07:59.:08:06.

times that lay ahead. Scottish life is a huge amount of Gordon -- to

:08:07.:08:13.

Gordon so today huge condolences to his family. , I imagine you didn't

:08:14.:08:19.

agree with much he said, Katie, but nonetheless he was always great fun

:08:20.:08:23.

and he was never shy of sticking a bard into the consensus when he

:08:24.:08:31.

fancied it? No, that will certainly be missed, so I do think that

:08:32.:08:34.

Scotland has lost somebody whose name will remain in the history

:08:35.:08:40.

books. We've lost, yak, I'm sorry about that. It seems we don't have

:08:41.:08:45.

many people who can do those sort of barbed things and make a point and

:08:46.:08:53.

get away with it. He was held in regard, right across parties, wasn't

:08:54.:08:59.

he? Some of his views, on things like same-sex marriage, were perhaps

:09:00.:09:03.

not in tune with the consensus in Scottish Parliament, but,

:09:04.:09:08.

nonetheless, he was regarded as not just good fun but as a serious

:09:09.:09:12.

thinker. And he was a serious thinker, wasn't he? He was, he was

:09:13.:09:17.

sometimes criticised for being a bit too moderate, but I always notice

:09:18.:09:21.

that within the party that he was always prepared to take a punt on a

:09:22.:09:24.

radical position if he thought it was justified and woodwork. The best

:09:25.:09:35.

example... It was a good tradition. As we got to hear, Kevin, Nicola

:09:36.:09:41.

Sturgeon is supposedly thinking long and hard. It used to be your job to

:09:42.:09:45.

do that, what would your advice be? What she should do about the second

:09:46.:09:52.

independence referendum? She does when thinking in that is right. I

:09:53.:09:57.

think that retaining a choice of independence is the right position.

:09:58.:10:01.

I think we're looking at the time scale at the moment. I think

:10:02.:10:05.

Scotland is in a better position than most of the rest of the UK...

:10:06.:10:10.

The timetable is crucial, if Nicola was to say, look were not going to

:10:11.:10:17.

go until the mid-20 20s. We'll stand in the next election and put it to

:10:18.:10:22.

discuss people then that's one thing, but to suggest that they

:10:23.:10:29.

might have a referendum before the next Scottish election before 2021,

:10:30.:10:33.

that leaves and open to the accusation that they are just

:10:34.:10:37.

obsessed with the independence. It leaves open the issue of choice.

:10:38.:10:46.

Scotland had voted substantially to retain, as Northern Ireland, these

:10:47.:10:51.

two project the UK have a democratic choice... 60% voted for parties who

:10:52.:10:59.

had Britain at the top of their manifest didn't they? Eye you can

:11:00.:11:06.

look at the fact that the SNP you deliver the fact that the SNP and

:11:07.:11:09.

the majority of seats in the Scottish Parliament last year, but I

:11:10.:11:13.

think Nicholas stood to put the issue in the context of choice --

:11:14.:11:18.

Nicola Sturgeon will want to put it in the context of choice. The

:11:19.:11:25.

locations are Brexit, when they come clear at the end of the

:11:26.:11:29.

negotiations, or potentially through to the actual exit itself, as we

:11:30.:11:33.

speak that timescale is very unclear. These things will only

:11:34.:11:36.

become clear as the negotiations go on. And in the UK wide programme I

:11:37.:11:43.

heard them talking about the trade act that are not really giving any

:11:44.:11:51.

exits antlers on that Young antlers on that. Is any sustainable pension,

:11:52.:11:58.

because of course Rick Davis is going to say aha? I would say that

:11:59.:12:03.

that is just like Ian Blackford trying to enter the question. Once

:12:04.:12:08.

the locations are Brexit become clear, which will probably become

:12:09.:12:13.

clear in the short term, job losses in the UK. The prospect of an

:12:14.:12:19.

independent Scotland departing from the UK is B even less attractive.

:12:20.:12:25.

Hang on, I know you against independence but you can't expect

:12:26.:12:28.

Kevin to be against independence. The question is whether it is now

:12:29.:12:34.

necessary for the Scottish Government to take that threat, or

:12:35.:12:39.

opportunity as they would say, off the table in order to start

:12:40.:12:45.

haemorrhaging votes. Because, you won the election, a 21 seat last,

:12:46.:12:50.

and as John Swinney has accepted, the referenda in business was part

:12:51.:12:56.

of that. Do they need to stop the haemorrhaging? Well, I suppose it

:12:57.:13:00.

comes along on many different levels. In order to stop the

:13:01.:13:03.

haemorrhaging of votes, it's not just about Brexit, it's about the

:13:04.:13:10.

domestic record. They do need to concentrate on the day job. I'm just

:13:11.:13:14.

saying that as a general thing, if you want to stop haemorrhaging

:13:15.:13:18.

votes, you need to stop really concentrating an independence

:13:19.:13:20.

referendum them and DJ job. Anyway referendum them and DJ job. Anyway

:13:21.:13:28.

-- D-Day job, they got themselves into a position where they have to

:13:29.:13:31.

talk about the referendum when they that Italy is profitable thing. Were

:13:32.:13:38.

easy to an MP was hanging on by tender hundreds and some of them

:13:39.:13:43.

are, what you say to them? I think we have to say that after Brexit

:13:44.:13:51.

it's increasingly attracted to have that choice. It's fundamentally

:13:52.:13:54.

about the choice of the people to decide the future and I think that

:13:55.:14:01.

is a popular position. That's the same position that they had before

:14:02.:14:06.

the election? I think they will find that the timescale is different and

:14:07.:14:09.

it is an attractive proposition of itself. Sadly that all the time we

:14:10.:14:12.

have for this week. I'll be back next week, until then, goodbye? .

:14:13.:14:19.

MUSIC: Spring from The Four Seasons by Vivaldi

:14:20.:14:21.

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