Browse content similar to 25/06/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics. | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
After the Grenfell Tower disaster, 34 tower blocks in 17 council areas | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
in England have failed emergency fire safety tests, but not | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
every building that fails will be evacuated. | :00:51. | :00:52. | |
The government promises Britain will be a strong global | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
trading power after Brexit, as negotiations get under way, | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
we'll ask the international trade minister how. | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
As Jeremy Corbyn celebrates his new rock-star status | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
with a trip to Glastonbury, will the Labour leader | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
The new SNP leader at Westminster, Ian Blackford, explains why | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
he thinks it's only a matter of time before the Scottish Government get | :01:19. | :01:20. | |
And with me throughout, our own supergroup of political | :01:21. | :01:36. | |
pundits who'll be wowing the crowds throughout the programme, | :01:37. | :01:38. | |
Helen Lewis, Tim Shipman and Isabel Oakeshott. | :01:39. | :01:40. | |
They'll also be tweeting using the hashtag bbcsp. | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
First, though, the government has confirmed that over 30 tower blocks | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
across England have now failed an emergency fire safety test, | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
following the Grenfall Tower disaster in which 79 people | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
According to the government the cladding from 34 tower blocks | :01:54. | :02:01. | |
has been tested and all of them have failed the combustibility test. | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
The government plans to examine up to | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
600 blocks and claim they can test 100 a day. | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
The areas affected so far include Manchester, Plymouth and Portsmouth | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
as well as the London boroughs of Barnet, Brent, Camden | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
and Hounslow; all the relevant landlords and fire services | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
Camden has already evacuated residents from | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
650 flats whilst other councils have introduced interim measures such | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
as 24-hour fire warden patrols to mitigate the risk before | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
When you look at the national scale of this, this goes beyond austerity | :02:37. | :02:47. | |
and finger-pointing at individual councils, this is a clear national | :02:48. | :02:53. | |
system failure for the country. I'm surprised the response has been as | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
muted as it has been, and initially there was a huge response. It is | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
striking how every single building they test seems to fail these | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
regulations, so people are slightly confused about whether this is the | :03:06. | :03:08. | |
regulations at fault or the cladding that is at fault and I think what is | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
most alarming to people, the insecurity. Some people have been | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
told to evacuate and that is what happened in Camden and they were | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
told until late at night. It is difficult for people to take pets | :03:22. | :03:24. | |
outcome and other people have been told to stay in the commendation | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
that may or may not be flammable. They have put fire wardens in | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
instead. There is a problem that people feel this is a problem about | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
social housing but not all of these are about social housing, but about | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
the neglect to people that several successive governments have shown. | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
People will wonder why the building regulations allow or the building | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
regulations were flouted in a way that allowed so much inflammable | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
material to clad our buildings. If you look in other countries, | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
America, Germany, some of this is banned, and some people said some of | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
the stuff has been put up in this country has also been banned and | :04:08. | :04:10. | |
this shows what a disaster housing policy has been in this country for | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
a generation. Neither party has been able to get a grip on it. There are | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
several failures of the Tory council but Labour was in charge of putting | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
this stuff into housing associations, where the controls | :04:25. | :04:27. | |
have not been very good over long period, and what we need to do is | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
build more homes and every government announces they are going | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
to build more homes. Hopefully using the right material. Yes, but none of | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
these governors have been able to build enough homes and we have a | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
crisis of stock where people are put into houses like battery hens, | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
frankly, in places where most people would not want to take a second | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
look. Looking at Grenfell Tower, if that had not been clad, if they had | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
kept the old concrete facade committee would not have gone up in | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
fire. This has been a failure of government with a small G, national | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
and local, Labour and Conservatives. Absolutely. It is not just about | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
residential accommodation, hospitals might have this material, I'm | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
hearing, and schools. Politically the challenge for the government, | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
there is a huge logistical and humanitarian challenge but also the | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
politics of it, as you rightly say, that this isn't just something which | :05:26. | :05:27. | |
is linked directly to Tory austerity. The government now, the | :05:28. | :05:34. | |
initial shock has worn off, and the challenge for the government is to | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
make it clear that this is not just their direct responsibility and the | :05:40. | :05:42. | |
result of the Tory cuts agenda and there are plenty of Labour councils | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
who also have responsibility. Given the national crisis and the national | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
failure, the government needs to be seen to get a grip on this. | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
Absolutely. Most MPs would say they... Their response has been | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
slightly more convincing than it was early on, but there are still huge | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
potential for this to snowball especially if we have other | :06:06. | :06:07. | |
buildings, not just residential, affected. There has been a change in | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
the national mood, you see this in the Conservative Party. The word | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
austerity was barely mentioned. Philip Hammond has relaxed his | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
targets. Local councils bore the brunt of the cuts and they won't | :06:23. | :06:25. | |
take any more, there is that sense, the people are tired of that. | :06:26. | :06:27. | |
Indeed. OK. The Government says it will deliver | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
a Brexit deal which will allow the UK to become a powerful global | :06:32. | :06:34. | |
trading nation with the EU This morning the Brexit Secretary, | :06:35. | :06:37. | |
David Davis, told the BBC he was certain he'd be able to get | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
a good trade deal with Brussels, in part because of pressure | :06:42. | :06:44. | |
from businesses within the EU. I mean it's not just | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
the German car industry, it's Bavarian farmers, | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
French farmers, Italian white goods manufacturers, | :06:53. | :06:53. | |
you name it. The balance of trade basically | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
is 230 billion from us to them, They have a very strong interest | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
in getting a good deal, at the end of the day, | :07:02. | :07:10. | |
on all sides on trade. And I've been joined | :07:11. | :07:12. | |
by the Trade Minister Mark Price. Welcome to the programme. There are | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
five main national business organisations in Britain and all of | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
them want minimal custom checks after Brexit between the UK and the | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
EU, how can you do that if we are leaving the customs union? There's a | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
difference between the customs union and the customs arrangements. It is | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
not that binary, you are not either in or out, you can work which with | :07:36. | :07:42. | |
ever party you want, you have customs arrangements, which work to | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
the benefit of business. That would need to cover all of the EU? You | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
can't do that in bilateral business with members of the EU, it needs to | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
be all of them? The negotiations will be with the commission and they | :07:57. | :07:59. | |
will work on behalf of all EU members. I attend the trade | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
ministers meeting and I've been four times since Brexit, and the mood is | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
very positive about the relationship they want with the UK going forward. | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
We have frictionless trade by being in the customs union at the moment, | :08:14. | :08:16. | |
you can import into this country, and then they go seamlessly to the | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
rest of the EU because everything coming into the EU comes in on the | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
same terms, but if we are not in the customs union any more, how can you | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
have that frictionless trade? You look at Harris first of all, and at | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
the moment we are tariff free, but if you look at the arrangement like | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
the Canadian trade Guild, it is 98% tariff free, -- the trade deal. The | :08:39. | :08:51. | |
Canadian deal is not a customs deal. What I'm asking you is about the | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
stuff coming into Britain which at the moment can then go seamlessly to | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
the rest of the EU, and will not be able to do so if we are not in the | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
customs union. I'm trying to explain the preconditions for having a | :09:06. | :09:12. | |
customs arrangements, the first is, can tariff the parable of the -- the | :09:13. | :09:24. | |
first is tariff, and then at the moment we take 56% of our goods from | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
outside the EU. We have electronic passing of documentation and I'm | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
told that 96% will go through within six seconds, and so we are not a | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
novice to this and we all be do this with countries all over the world. | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
We trade with 163 countries around the world, we are not building from | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
no experience and no base. We have a place that we are working from. To | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
do it sector by sector could take a long wire which is maybe why the | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
Chancellor is now talking about a transitional period for single | :09:55. | :10:00. | |
market access may be membership, and the customs union, how long a | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
transition period are we looking at? Who knows. We will see how we get | :10:04. | :10:12. | |
on. One year, two years? Who knows. From the European and UK perspective | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
we want a smooth transition and this is what trade ministers are saying | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
across Europe, this is not just a British desire. I have heard | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
interviews with several European parliamentarians who say they want | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
to move to a smooth transition and they would like a period of time to | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
do that if we can't do that inside the initial period. Will we be able | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
to make free trade deals with countries outside the EU in this | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
transition period? We have a host of arrangements at the moment, but it | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
is not that simple. With the EU we are party to about 40 trade deals by | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
the time we go, and we will work with those countries to transition | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
them. But in the transition period, can we make a free-trade deal with | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
America or China? Can we do that? We have set up nine working groups at | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
the moment with 15 different countries and what we are working | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
through is how do we make sure when we leave the EU that the current | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
arrangements that we have are carried forward, Liam Fox last week | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
was in America and there are 20 agreements with America. We can talk | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
about the current trading relationship, how do we make things | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
better for our businesses in those countries in the way that customs | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
work and the way their businesses are handled and then we can start | :11:28. | :11:29. | |
thinking about how do we shape a future deal. In a transition period, | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
can we strike a free-trade deal with a third party? No, we can't. We | :11:36. | :11:43. | |
can't sign or negotiate. During the transition period? This is during | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
the two-year period, but in the transition period that depends what | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
we agree with the EU. Businesses want tariff free trade to continue | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
between the EU and the UK. What indications have you had that the EU | :11:59. | :12:06. | |
will agree to this? Businesses who want tariff free trade to continue. | :12:07. | :12:13. | |
Between the UK and the EU. In all the discussion that I've had with | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
trade ministers, and I've spoken to them all over the last year, there | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
is a great appetite to impose tariffs where none exist today and | :12:22. | :12:29. | |
as I've mentioned, the Canadian deal is 98% tariff free but also today, | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
what we have said, we will make sure that for the least developed | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
country, 48 of them, we give them preferential access to the UK, no | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
tariffs or rotors, and there's another group of countries that we | :12:41. | :12:48. | |
give reduced access to as well. What about tariff free trade between the | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
EU and the UK? I think they will be keen to give us that. But no yes, | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
despite all these meetings. We have got to sit down and negotiate, but | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
the spirit is a good one. People in Europe want to get into a good place | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
with us, why? Because the trade surplus with the UK is... I know all | :13:08. | :13:17. | |
the reasons. Euro France only runs a surplus with four countries and we | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
are one of them. So the indications are good? Yes, around the world, | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
since Brexit, I visited 31 countries and I've met with 70 ministers and I | :13:27. | :13:34. | |
have seen this. Let me come onto immigration. Businesses have also | :13:35. | :13:43. | |
called for a flexible system of skills and Labour, so what system do | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
you imagine? You have heard from the government that we don't want to | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
harm our economy, and in Europe we have heard very loud and clear that | :13:54. | :13:56. | |
people want to be able to source the right people for their businesses. | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
What will the system be? Tomorrow the Prime Minister is going to make | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
an announcement. That is about EU citizens already here, but what will | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
the broad principles be under which people from the EU can come here to | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
work? That will be in the paper that will be set up, we have the | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
immigration bill coming forward, but we don't want to harm the UK | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
economy. What is the priority? In your manifesto you had a policy of | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
reducing net migration to the tens of thousands, so what is the | :14:31. | :14:33. | |
priority, hitting Matt Targett or a system that meets the flexible needs | :14:34. | :14:40. | |
of the economy? -- that target. It is a difficult call. I would say | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
meeting the needs of the economy are hugely important. What is more | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
important? The part of the jigsaw that is missing is what happens to | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
the shape of the Labour force in the UK as we move into the digital | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
error. The British consortium have said they will need 900,000 fewer | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
workers in retail in ten years' time in every industry is being reshaped, | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
and to take a point in time and say this is right... I'm asking for a | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
general principle, what is more important, hitting the target or | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
keeping immigration that is flexible to the economy? If you asked me as a | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
businessman, for 30 years, I would say it is through the success of | :15:23. | :15:25. | |
business and the success of our economy that we can afford the | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
social services that we want. As a government minister we need to work | :15:31. | :15:32. | |
through over the course of the next 2-3 years, but Bill through | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
Parliament and decide where we get to, we have said there is a target | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
of tens of thousands, and my personal view, given the digital | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
changes, that is a perfectly reasonable target for us. | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
Business says what they really need is clarity. One year after we voted | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
to leave, what clarity have you brought to these issues this | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
morning? That is a very good question. I think we have set out | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
the principles. You cannot tell me the principles of immigration, the | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
principles on which the customs union will operate, or the economy | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
or hitting a target will be more important for immigration. The Prime | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
Minister has set out what we intend to achieve. Through the Queen's | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
speech will bring a different bills that address these issues. They will | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
be there for Parliament to discuss, there will be consultation papers | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
and business can be involved with that. We will be consulting and | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
there will be a vote. That is process. I'm afraid we have run out | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
of time, but that is processed. What you want us to do is to be able to | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
say this is definitively what we will be able to get, but there are | :16:50. | :16:56. | |
two site. If I was buying a business in Waitrose, I couldn't tell you | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
what the outcome would be. I was simply asking what the Government's | :17:02. | :17:08. | |
aim was. That has clearly been set out by the Prime Minister. Thank | :17:09. | :17:09. | |
you. Jeremy Corbyn confounded his critics | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
in the general election, increasing Labour's share | :17:14. | :17:15. | |
of the vote and securing So will the Corbynistas use | :17:16. | :17:17. | |
the result to strengthen Our reporter Emma Vardy | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
has been finding out. Enjoying superstar | :17:21. | :17:23. | |
status at Glastonbury. Since when did being | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
a politician become this cool? Do you know, politics is actually | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
about everyday life. It's about all of us | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
and what we dream and what we want and what we achieve and what we want | :17:39. | :17:41. | |
for everybody else. # Staying out for the summer, | :17:42. | :17:44. | |
playing games in the rain It's looking like the summer | :17:45. | :17:53. | |
of love for Jeremy Corbyn. As he basks in his post-election | :17:54. | :18:03. | |
glow, well, as much as you can bask So, is all that bitter infighting | :18:04. | :18:06. | |
in the party a distant memory Jeremy will stay the Labour leader | :18:07. | :18:13. | |
now as long as he wants to do so. He's come back from the dead | :18:14. | :18:21. | |
in terms of the predictions and so he will remain Labour leader | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
for as long as he wants. Let's recognise that another world | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
is possible if we come together. Former Corbyn critics like John Mann | :18:30. | :18:40. | |
MP have been eating humble pie. The big issue for Jeremy now is, | :18:41. | :18:43. | |
is he going to hold his people in and stop any factional battling | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
in the Labour Party, and there are people on both | :18:47. | :18:49. | |
sides of the old divide in the Labour Party who love nothing | :18:50. | :18:51. | |
better than internal wrangling. Or is he going to consolidate his | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
position and bring the Labour Party together and be a potential | :18:56. | :18:58. | |
Prime Minister in waiting? The centrist Labour group Progress | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
which had been associated with some of Corbyn's harshest critics says | :19:03. | :19:04. | |
now the party is more In the general election, | :19:05. | :19:07. | |
the Labour Party worked together, Labour MPs put their strongest foot | :19:08. | :19:27. | |
forward in getting re-elected in their seats the national campaign | :19:28. | :19:29. | |
pulled through and party staff We have shown that when we pull | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
together we are a strong force. # Staying out for the summer, | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
staying up for the summer #. Before the election, | :19:37. | :19:39. | |
a number of party rule changes had been up for debate as pro and | :19:40. | :19:41. | |
anti-Corbyn factions looked for ways So has all that now being kicked | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
into the long grass? Any attempts to try and undermine | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
Tom Watson as deputy leader, appoint a second deputy leader, | :19:49. | :19:50. | |
attack the party staff, change the party rules, | :19:51. | :19:53. | |
will show the public out there that the Labour Party is more | :19:54. | :19:55. | |
interested in itself rather But will also put at risk that | :19:56. | :19:57. | |
unity, that is fragile and quite frankly now, | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
is led from the top. The way in which internal | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
hostilities would recommend The way in which internal | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
hostilities would recommence would be if there was a return | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
to some of the sectarianism that we So if there were attempts | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
to deselect MPs and councillors, those MPs and councillors | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
are going to fight If there are attempts to cross | :20:22. | :20:23. | |
a limited number of policy red lines on things like Trident renewal, | :20:24. | :20:31. | |
again that would cause And if there are attempts to change | :20:32. | :20:33. | |
the rule book of the party in a way that just gives blatant partisan | :20:34. | :20:43. | |
advantage, then again it would cause divisions to re-emerge, | :20:44. | :20:45. | |
but there's no need for them to do On policy and personnel, the ball | :20:46. | :20:48. | |
is in Jeremy Corbyn's court. There will be a debate | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
at conference, though, on what some are calling | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
the McDonnell Amendment. A rule change that would lower | :20:56. | :20:57. | |
the number of nominations needed Those on the left of the party have | :20:58. | :21:00. | |
been accused of plotting to make it easier for a left-wing candidate | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
to stand for leadership to succeed I think that opinion at conference | :21:07. | :21:09. | |
is finely balanced on that. Because the elections | :21:10. | :21:20. | |
for constituency delegates seem to be on a knife edge | :21:21. | :21:22. | |
between the left and the right. We will know the outcome of those | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
around the 9th of July And then it all depends | :21:27. | :21:29. | |
on the attitude taken by a couple of the big unions like | :21:30. | :21:36. | |
the GMB and Unison, about this proposal than Unite | :21:37. | :21:38. | |
and the more left-wing unions are. Meanwhile, here at the Jeremy Corbyn | :21:39. | :21:46. | |
supporting Momentum HQ, they believe there could be another | :21:47. | :21:57. | |
general election within six months and are remaining | :21:58. | :22:00. | |
in full campaign mode. We're going to be targeting | :22:01. | :22:02. | |
new marginals and we're going to be training thousands of activists | :22:03. | :22:05. | |
in those marginal constituencies and we going to be developing | :22:06. | :22:07. | |
new technological platforms to make it easy for people to get | :22:08. | :22:09. | |
involved in the election. Safe to say, they're | :22:10. | :22:12. | |
feeling rather vindicated. Many of those who were bitterly | :22:13. | :22:14. | |
opposed to Jeremy Corbyn have eaten their words | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
and have apologised. Look, in the general election | :22:19. | :22:20. | |
campaign, we campaigned for all Labour candidates | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
in our target seats and marginal seats, irrespective of where they | :22:25. | :22:31. | |
stood in the past on Jeremy Corbyn. We helped win seats for candidates | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
who supported Progress, just as hard as we helped win seats | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
for those who had always supported Jeremy and that's the way | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
we are going to carry on. Well, I think that will last | :22:47. | :22:48. | |
till the next election because we all want to | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
win the next election. # Staying out for the summer, | :22:53. | :22:54. | |
staying out for the summer #. For now, he's the man of the moment, | :22:55. | :23:02. | |
but is this performance the peak of his popularity, or the precursor | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
to Labour winning power? Before the general election | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
was called, a proxy-battle for the future of the Labour party | :23:12. | :23:19. | |
was played out in the election of the general secretary | :23:20. | :23:27. | |
of Unite, the union, The incumbent, Len McClusky, | :23:28. | :23:29. | |
who had put his weight behind Jeremy Corbyn, | :23:30. | :23:36. | |
faced a challenge from Gerard Coyne, who was seen to be the Labour | :23:37. | :23:38. | |
moderates' choice. Gerard Coyne narrowly lost, | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
and this week he was sacked from his Unite position | :23:42. | :23:43. | |
as a regional secretary. Good morning. You say you have been | :23:44. | :23:50. | |
the victim of a kangaroo court and a short trial, what do you mean by | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
that? After 29 years' service with the union I found myself dismissed | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
for a trumped up charge that related to the election but was about | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
nothing that relates directly to my role as a regional secretary so it | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
showed to me that defence now cannot be tolerated inside Unite and that's | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
a very concerning situation. The union says you were sacked for | :24:17. | :24:19. | |
misuse of data during the leadership election campaign. You say it's | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
because you have the audacity to challenge Len McCluskey. What's the | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
evidence to support your side? The independent body appointed by the | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
union to oversee the election this week produced a report that said in | :24:34. | :24:36. | |
relation to the data issue there was no evidence I breached any rules and | :24:37. | :24:43. | |
no evidence I breached the election guidance so actually the union's own | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
independent body has exonerated me this week. You said "It's beyond | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
parody that I is a 30 year member of the Labour Party should be accused | :24:53. | :25:02. | |
of harming Unite Labour relations by Len McCluskey's chief of staff..." | :25:03. | :25:09. | |
What do you mean by that? The investigation and the decision | :25:10. | :25:12. | |
reached actually shows a much more concerning element about the | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
involvement in the campaign and election that reflects badly in | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
terms of his position as a member of the Communist Party and the sort of | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
quite frankly Stalinist approach to the treatment I have received. So | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
actually it was a show trial I endured recently and I don't believe | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
I have received a fair process at all. And in this, in your words show | :25:36. | :25:42. | |
trial, did this Unite leadership regard you as an enemy of the | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
proletariat? The truth is they were very keen to see the descent and the | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
different vision I have got for Unite which was focused on our | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
members and protecting them in a difficult set of circumstances. They | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
wanted to stamp out that voice which was one which was articulated in a | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
different way for the union to go in the future. But you had lost. Yes | :26:06. | :26:12. | |
but on a very small majority, and there were thousands of Unite voters | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
that didn't have a chance to vote, which is why I'm now mounting a | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
legal challenge to the election results and we are going to make | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
sure it is rerun and given the opportunity to those members. So you | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
think you have a claim in law? To put a ten point claim into the | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
certification Officer, that has already gone in challenging the | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
result on ten individual counts as to how it was not properly run in | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
the first place. Do you have confidence in the certification | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
Officer in that process or do you think you might end up in the High | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
Court? If the certification Officer doesn't rule in favour of what I | :26:53. | :27:00. | |
think is a strong case coming have to ask the question what is this | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
certification Officer for, in that case I will be considering the High | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
Court. If you are right about the way you were treated, what does it | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
say about British trade unionism in the 21st-century that you can be | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
sacked by your union for standing up to the boss? I expect to have a | :27:18. | :27:25. | |
robust debate in a democratic election and not to be punished for | :27:26. | :27:32. | |
it. I did engage in what was quite an interesting debate through the | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
election campaign, but I've also served the union the 29 years and | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
for most employees if they have had that length of service, some | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
consideration would have been given to that. But Len McCluskey has been | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
re-elected leader, Jeremy Corbyn now rules the Labour Party unchallenged. | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
Andrew Murray, who you say mounted the show trial against you, was a | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
key part of Jeremy Corbyn's election campaign. It does look like you've | :28:02. | :28:07. | |
lost on all fronts. Jeremy did exceptionally well in the general | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
election campaign, he got young people involved, and it's not about | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
a left or right issue in terms of the party, it's about where the | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
party goes. My fear is that the way I've treated will start to give an | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
influence in the Labour movement or generally in the Labour Party that | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
starts to look like purges are acceptable. If Labour does that, the | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
electorate will never forgive them for an internal battle rather than | :28:35. | :28:37. | |
being the effective opposition they need to be. Are you saying that what | :28:38. | :28:42. | |
you believe happened to you could happen to other people now in the | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
Labour Party itself? I think there is a real danger of that. The | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
reality is the very people involved at the top of Unite, involved in the | :28:52. | :28:57. | |
disciplinary process with myself, they are influential figures in | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
Labour and part of my campaign is that Unite is too intrinsically | :29:02. | :29:04. | |
linked with the top of the Labour Party and ready to be focusing on a | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
much stronger industrial agenda for the future. If you have been a | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
member of the Labour Party for 30 years. We have now been dismissed | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
from your job is regional secretary I think in the West Midlands area? | :29:17. | :29:23. | |
That's right. Have you heard from the Labour leadership on this issue? | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
I haven't, and in terms of the leadership it would be nice to hear | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
from them because we lost seats in the West Midlands, we should have | :29:33. | :29:39. | |
felt onto, where working-class vote did not stay with Labour and it's | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
important we reach out to and engage with those communities and make sure | :29:44. | :29:46. | |
they support Labour in the future. Gerard Coyne, thank you for being | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
with us. I've been joined now from Leeds | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
by Labour's Jon Trickett, Welcome to the programme. Jeremy | :29:56. | :30:07. | |
Corbyn says he wants to unite the party behind him, so why didn't he | :30:08. | :30:10. | |
use the Shadow Cabinet reshuffle to do just that? First of all, why | :30:11. | :30:18. | |
would he change a winning team? We did a very good election campaign, | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
if we did not -- even if we did not quite get over the line. The Shadow | :30:24. | :30:26. | |
Cabinet worked very hard to get their result, but there are | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
vacancies and they were used to reach out and we have brought in the | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
man who stood against Jeremy not that long ago in a tough battle for | :30:35. | :30:40. | |
the leadership. I think that shows a leader who is reaching out, but also | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
wanting to make sure that he keeps a winning team. That is a reasonable | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
decision for him to make. What do you say to Gerard Coyne, Labour | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
member 30 years, who believes he has been purged from the Unite union and | :30:54. | :31:00. | |
that could be about to happen to Labour moderates in the party? There | :31:01. | :31:06. | |
will be no purge. We want everyone together, what is remarkable is, | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
when the so-called coup happened last year, when the PLP turned | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
against Jeremy, our poll rating collapsed and as soon as the party | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
reunited for the election the poll rating began to increase and that is | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
a lesson for everyone. The lesson has been learned by all of us and we | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
will work together as United party moving forward, but what should be | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
clear to everyone, we cannot go back to the Labour Party as it was | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
previously. He had got to move forward with Jeremy in the direction | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
in which he has laid out for the party and the country. What do you | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
say to Paul Mason, former journalists. -- former journalist. | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
He said to Blair writes that if you want a centrist party, this is not | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
going to be it for the next ten years -- Blairites. He said you have | :31:55. | :32:01. | |
got to form your own party. He did look a bit excitable when I saw a | :32:02. | :32:08. | |
piece by him on the internet, but the centre of gravity, it has | :32:09. | :32:11. | |
changed in politics, and what was the centre is no longer the centre. | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
The idea that a country should be run for a few at the expense of the | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
many is one which I think has been largely destroyed in this election | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
campaign. The centre has moved and the party has recognised with the | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
new centre is and we now need to unite and begin to roll out the | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
changes. There are many which need to be done on Jeremy's agenda. I say | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
this to the party committee of Jeremy and the leadership the tools | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
and he will finish the job -- the party, give Jeremy and the | :32:41. | :32:50. | |
leadership the tours. If they want a more centre-left party, they are not | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
going to get it? They should follow Paul Mason's advice? If they want | :32:54. | :32:59. | |
that. We have heard many of them repenting on their sins in the last | :33:00. | :33:02. | |
couple of days. That is another matter! LAUGHTER | :33:03. | :33:09. | |
They have recognised there are new ways of campaigning we have got to | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
listen to young people and see how they organise, but also our politics | :33:14. | :33:16. | |
has changed as a party and it has resonated with the country. Gerard | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
Coyne spoke about working class voters. I began writing about the | :33:21. | :33:26. | |
problem with working class voters in 2005 at the height of the Tony Blair | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
years and the party has more work to do in those communities and across | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
the country to win the trust of everybody's so that we can serve | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
them in government. Working-class voters swung to the Tories in the | :33:40. | :33:42. | |
last election, middle-class voters went your way. There has been a | :33:43. | :33:48. | |
problem with manual workers for some time, I don't need to be told about | :33:49. | :33:51. | |
that, I'd been writing about it for ten years. I was a building worker | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
for a while and we have got more work to do to regain the trust of | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
these people, but some of the proposals will work for those people | :34:02. | :34:03. | |
and we have got to bring them back in. Do you back the left wing move | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
to lower the threshold of MPs needed to stand for the leadership? We will | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
see where we get to, I'm in favour of democratising the Labour Party. | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
Are you in favour or not? We will see where we get to. It has been a | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
long-running debate. Do you think the threshold for anyone who wants | :34:26. | :34:28. | |
to run for leadership should be cut to 5% of MPs? I'm not going to | :34:29. | :34:35. | |
express my view at the moment, but when there is a leadership election | :34:36. | :34:38. | |
it is important that every tendency within the party is represented on | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
the ballot paper. And the rule that prevents a section of the right or | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
the left or the centre from being on the ballot paper is a bad rule. That | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
is an argument for lowering the threshold. We have got to look | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
carefully at how we conduct leadership elections and that debate | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
will be had. That far left figure we had in that film there, he said the | :35:01. | :35:07. | |
Corbyn way of doing things is a successful way, and that is | :35:08. | :35:14. | |
suggesting that you join the Corbyn bandwagon, you don't try to change | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
it, that's the way forward the Labour Party? All parties have | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
different points of view, and so is the Labour Party. You test ideas in | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
action and what happened in the general election showed the idea | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
that Jeremy has had and are successful, we have more than | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
doubled our size. Over 600,000 members. You lost the third election | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
in a row. We got the highest share of the vote, the largest number of | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
votes. No, you didn't. The Tories did. I haven't finished my sentence. | :35:48. | :35:55. | |
Labour has received since 1997. You lost. Of course, and that is why I | :35:56. | :36:02. | |
have said you we have got to work harder to build confidence in people | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
especially working people in our politics and the way we are going. | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
Can I clarify the Labour position on Brexit? Jeremy Corbyn and John | :36:12. | :36:17. | |
McDonnell has said the Labour position is to leave membership of | :36:18. | :36:20. | |
the single market, so why have over 50 Labour politicians signed a | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
letter to the Guardian in favour of membership of the single market? | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
That is not exactly where we are. We are taking the view that we need to | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
have access to all of the tariff rearrangements which exist within | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
the customs union and the single market. What is the policy on | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
membership? Let me finish. It is important to answer the question. I | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
will give you a full answer, and the answer is, we are not wedded to any | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
particular institutional framework, we are pragmatic about it. We will | :36:55. | :37:01. | |
see how the negotiations go. We do not have to do one thing or another | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
in terms of institutional relationships but we need a Brexit | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
which works for jobs and growth and also for the protections which | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
working people have also how that comes remains to be seen. I was | :37:13. | :37:19. | |
asking for clarification. Is the Labour policy to remain members of | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
the single market or not? Alp policy is to secure all of the rights which | :37:25. | :37:31. | |
exist, tariff free access, within the single market and the customs | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
union, and we are not saying that a particular institutional form is | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
something we've always ourselves to at this stage. Are you for or | :37:40. | :37:45. | |
against remaining members of the single market? It is not a question | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
of four it is about securing the best possible arrangement for our | :37:51. | :37:57. | |
economy and working people -- it is not a question of for or against. | :37:58. | :38:04. | |
The labour MP Clive Lewis said Thatcher economic dogma was to blame | :38:05. | :38:10. | |
for Grenfell Tower, but we know many tower blocks have been clad in the | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
same material by Labour councils, was that also the fault of | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
Thatcherite economic dogma? It is very difficult to say exactly what | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
happened, and I worked in the building industry for many years and | :38:26. | :38:28. | |
I know the regulations were very tight. It now looks as though | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
something happened with the building regulations. And apart from that, we | :38:33. | :38:39. | |
can't say exactly what lies behind this. By Tory and Labour councils, | :38:40. | :38:45. | |
that is my point, both parties have questions to answer. Yes, but the | :38:46. | :38:55. | |
government have sat on the recommendations, like the | :38:56. | :38:56. | |
recommendation of this printer systems, they have sat on those | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
documents for years. -- sprinkler systems. Do you think all parties | :39:01. | :39:08. | |
should stop trying to make political capital out of what is effectively a | :39:09. | :39:14. | |
national disaster? And tried to get to the bottom of a system explained | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
the and try to do better regardless of the party? Yes, everyone should | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
do the same. The sooner we get the results of the inquiry the better, | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
but if there are decisions which can be made sooner than the public | :39:27. | :39:29. | |
inquiry they should be made and implemented. Jon Trickett, thanks | :39:30. | :39:32. | |
for joining us. Good morning, and welcome | :39:33. | :39:44. | |
to Sunday Politics Scotland. The SNP's Westminster leader, | :39:45. | :39:46. | |
Ian Blackford, says Scotland So, how exactly does he propose | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
to help secure a place Michael Gove has called it | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
"a sea of opportunity", but is leaving Europe necessarily | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
good news for all those And in a week where those Brexit | :40:02. | :40:04. | |
talks finally got underway and Thersea May received an early | :40:05. | :40:12. | |
rebuff from Donald Tusk, I'll be getting a Brussels' | :40:13. | :40:15. | |
insider's view on the trials ahead. The SNP don't have their problems | :40:16. | :40:22. | |
to seek after the election. They lost 21 seats and some leading | :40:23. | :40:25. | |
figures in the party have accepted that their call for a second | :40:26. | :40:28. | |
independence referendum didn't do them any favours - | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
they've still to make clear whether they will continue | :40:33. | :40:34. | |
to demand another referendum. But the party sees | :40:35. | :40:37. | |
an opportunity with a minority It's now demanding that the Scottish | :40:38. | :40:39. | |
Government should have a place But how do they plan | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
to achieve that? I'm joined now by the new SNP leader | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
at Westminster, Ian Blackford - he's the man who succeeds | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
Angus Robertson, who lost his Usually not the Scottish Government | :40:52. | :41:07. | |
involved in the direct negotiations, can we clarify that? Do you want | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
negotiations with the joint ministerial committee or are you | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
saying that you want a place at the table in Brussels in the | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
negotiations? Bye what has to happen is that there has to be a meeting of | :41:21. | :41:28. | |
the ministration in Edinburgh and hopefully the administration in | :41:29. | :41:30. | |
Belfast as well. It's important that the government recognises that the | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
devolved into ministration need to be involved. We are asking that the | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
Scottish Government be represented wary are. -- where we are. She | :41:41. | :41:50. | |
Theresa May got a bloody nose, she got defeated in the a minority in | :41:51. | :41:57. | |
the Commons. We accept that the United Kingdom is coming out of the | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
EU, but we wanted treaty to represent the interests of Scotland. | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
I think that there is an indication that people do not want to lose the | :42:08. | :42:15. | |
access to the single market. White on your idea of negotiations, I'm | :42:16. | :42:22. | |
sure you're British government will say yes we will have joint meetings | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
with the ministerial committee. An actual involvement in the talks in | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
Brussels, they may possibly say no, we're not doing that it will all get | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
too confusing. What do you do in that case? What pressure can you | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
exert? I think the government has to recognise its position. It is a | :42:43. | :42:49. | |
minority. But we are trained to do is seek a compromise that goes back | :42:50. | :42:51. | |
to a document published by the Scottish Government in December. We | :42:52. | :42:58. | |
haven't actually had a formal rejection. We need to say to the | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
government, look you got a responsibility to try and bring the | :43:03. | :43:07. | |
devolved nations of the UK together. We respect the position of the UK | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
Government and respect the decision that was taken to come out of the | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
EU, but we are equally tried to make sure that our demand to remain in | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
the single market, for the different problems of defending an Arsenal | :43:21. | :43:22. | |
interest in Scotland and the jobs and living standards is important. I | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
think people in the country want that and the government of the | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
United Kingdom should recognise that. If you did get your idea of | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
Scottish representation in the next round of talks in Brussels, along | :43:36. | :43:42. | |
with the rest of the bridges negotiating team that macro British | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
Darts Organisation team prop Tom presumably you would request in | :43:47. | :43:53. | |
advance. One thing the government would find intolerable is if | :43:54. | :43:58. | |
representatives from Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland who were | :43:59. | :44:05. | |
disagreeing with their negotiators? I think there is a way of fashioning | :44:06. | :44:08. | |
that and that is the position that the government had never taken. We | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
are seeking a compromise with the UK Government in the interest of | :44:12. | :44:17. | |
Scotland and to extent with the people of the United Kingdom as | :44:18. | :44:20. | |
well. We need some humility, it is very clear that that the country | :44:21. | :44:31. | |
want to be represented and that the only thoughts and that they have a | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
say in these territories? One bit of pressure you could apply is to | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
threaten to vote against a legislative consent motion for the | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
Great Repeal Bill. The problem with this that the Supreme Court has | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
already decided that Scotland can stop that Bill and can't stop | :44:51. | :44:56. | |
Brexit, it's not much of a threat? Nobody is threatening anything at | :44:57. | :44:59. | |
the moment. The important thing is that we now know that there is going | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
to be a motion that will have to come from the Scottish Parliament. | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
What we are saying to the government is let's work together and affect a | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
compromise that respect your position and respect ours, as well. | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
It's about trying to behave in a responsible manner, recognise a | :45:17. | :45:18. | |
mandate we have from the people of Scotland and staging the UK | :45:19. | :45:23. | |
Government, would you have to do is do the right thing. Acknowledge the | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
position that you do not have this position for a hard Brexit. The UK | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
Government says it wants to main trade with Europe, so do we, our | :45:31. | :45:36. | |
point is that has to come through access to the single market and the | :45:37. | :45:39. | |
customs union. Many other people, not just on the SNP, but in wider | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
society and people who have been elevated to the last of that the | :45:44. | :45:49. | |
House of Lords have liquidate the Scottish Government must be rest | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
presented. I think that must be respected. In your new role you have | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
said that the SNP group at Westminster would be happy to bring | :46:01. | :46:03. | |
down the Tory government at any time. Are you really? When I have | :46:04. | :46:10. | |
said is that we have a job to do to represent the people of Scotland. | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
Brexit is of course a clear priority. The second thing of course | :46:15. | :46:17. | |
is that there is no authority for posterity. One of the things that we | :46:18. | :46:20. | |
are hearing is that there is likely to be a deal for Northern Ireland | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
and if there is investment in Northern Ireland, which I would | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
welcome, that Scotland's interest is properly defensive. Tee defended. | :46:30. | :46:43. | |
Defended. How happy to bring them occurring in question are -- the | :46:44. | :46:53. | |
Tory government? If the Tories are acting against a piece of Scotland | :46:54. | :46:55. | |
and we would look at that at the time. But let's make sure that we | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
can get effective opposition to government that we can challenge the | :47:01. | :47:03. | |
austerity in general and if we can do the things I think we will have | :47:04. | :47:06. | |
something that the people of Scotland can celebrate with us. Can | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
expose my the SNP did not vote to bring down the last Tory government? | :47:12. | :47:17. | |
Well, we had a ridiculous situation where there was known need for an | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
election at that stage. We pointed that out. It really was about the | :47:22. | :47:24. | |
Conservatives looking out of the own interest and that spectacularly | :47:25. | :47:33. | |
backfired. We are not going to go against the mechanism that the | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
Tories put in place. Even though we've lost seats, I'm delighted that | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
we are still the largest party in Scotland, the Conservatives in the | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
Westminster love to be in the position that we are... I'm sure | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
they would, but the point is, when even the Tories voted to bring down | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
the Tory government, the SNP didn't you have stained? -- abstinent. The | :47:55. | :48:04. | |
Tories about than ever in their own interest. Many Labour MPs didn't. At | :48:05. | :48:11. | |
the end of the day it was the Tories try to seek a narrow party advantage | :48:12. | :48:13. | |
for themselves but it didn't work. It was a foolish thing to do and a | :48:14. | :48:21. | |
game played at Westminster. The second independence referendum, | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
people have said that that has played a role in the reduction of | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
seats that you mentioned. What do think the SNP should do about that | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
now? Nicola has made it very close that she is going to... She is | :48:36. | :48:42. | |
consulting within the party now. I've been engaged in discussions | :48:43. | :48:44. | |
with nickel and others and we will wait and see and other First | :48:45. | :48:49. | |
Minister Israel to give a judgment. -- is rated a dozen. What is | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
important is that we are going into negotiations. When you saying is it | :48:55. | :49:02. | |
every other member of the European Union and Scotland should be able to | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
have their say of the final exit the bracket. So you think that the SNP | :49:07. | :49:15. | |
should still say... Use of the SNP should still say that this would be | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
a second referendum customer once Nicola has reflected on the election | :49:20. | :49:22. | |
results, of course we will come forward with our proposals and | :49:23. | :49:25. | |
proposition on how we will move forward, both on the syllabus at -- | :49:26. | :49:32. | |
on Brexit and posterity. -- austerity. It does seem rather | :49:33. | :49:38. | |
peculiar and ensure some of your critics with a ludicrous that as the | :49:39. | :49:44. | |
leader of the Scottish National Party, at Westminster, that you can | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
answer simple questions on of all issues the process of getting | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
independence for Scotland? What I'm doing is concentrating on the job | :49:54. | :49:56. | |
that I have along with my colleagues in Westminster which is can the | :49:57. | :50:04. | |
upper Scotland -- standing up for Scotland. It's making sure that we | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
get the offer Scotland on Brexit, challenging honours 30 -- on | :50:09. | :50:16. | |
austerity. But I have said we will make a judgment based on what has | :50:17. | :50:18. | |
happened in the election campaign and we have a strong message that we | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
can take forward for the people of Scotland. The SNP is the party of | :50:23. | :50:25. | |
Scottish independent, more than ever. But we must do more than ever | :50:26. | :50:31. | |
is protecting Scottish interest in Brexit and make sure that there is | :50:32. | :50:37. | |
an alternative to austerity. So, the policy from audio just said is to | :50:38. | :50:40. | |
leave the idea of an independent referee and on the table... Hang on, | :50:41. | :50:46. | |
you said earlier on... That they should never... I'm focusing on the | :50:47. | :50:57. | |
short-term opportunities... So the policy is not to talk about it? What | :50:58. | :51:01. | |
they said is that Nicola will reflect that and in due course that | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
she will come out and say what the position of the SNP government is. | :51:07. | :51:09. | |
We will have to leave it there, Ian Blackford, thank you very much. | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
This week's Queen's Speech was pretty short by anybody's standards. | :51:14. | :51:15. | |
Lacking a majority, with much of her election | :51:16. | :51:17. | |
manifesto shredded and, at this point, without even a deal | :51:18. | :51:19. | |
with the DUP to support her, Prime Minister Theresa May has | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
decided that her two-year parliamentary programme should | :51:24. | :51:27. | |
One of those bills that was announced concerned fishing - | :51:28. | :51:32. | |
it will aim to set out a new way of regulating the industry. | :51:33. | :51:35. | |
That may prove a slippery task, because not everybody | :51:36. | :51:37. | |
In Peterhead on Friday, the UK's new Environment Secretary Michael Gove | :51:38. | :51:55. | |
was treading carefully. He discussed the future of fishing post Brexit. | :51:56. | :51:58. | |
As the country charts a new course, that is one bit of EU legislation | :51:59. | :52:07. | |
the keen Brexiteer is happy to throw overboard. The Common fisheries | :52:08. | :52:09. | |
policy has been an environmental and economic disaster, devastating for | :52:10. | :52:11. | |
the industry, especially here. It also meant we have not been able to | :52:12. | :52:18. | |
manage fish stocks to ensure the renewable resource is replenished | :52:19. | :52:21. | |
for the future. Many in the industry agree with him on the common | :52:22. | :52:26. | |
fisheries policy, but not all. The EU provides access to a huge market, | :52:27. | :52:34. | |
particularly for creel fishermen on Scotland's West Coast. This is a | :52:35. | :52:40. | |
very high premium shellfish. Some of them are concerned the valuable | :52:41. | :52:47. | |
trade might start to dry up. This week's Queen's Speech included a new | :52:48. | :52:50. | |
fisheries Bill, but there is precious little detail about how | :52:51. | :52:52. | |
that will support fishing communities. They will want the | :52:53. | :52:57. | |
backbone of the country, but have faced declining. -- they were once | :52:58. | :53:07. | |
the backbone. Glasgow's Briggate, used to be big Fish market. | :53:08. | :53:20. | |
Scotland's fishing industry is still going strong, though much reduced. | :53:21. | :53:23. | |
Its leaders say that they want a place at the top table when Brexit | :53:24. | :53:33. | |
The Fisherman Association represent 60% of the fishermen on the | :53:34. | :53:58. | |
coast,... It is generally happy to say farewell to the EU, but wants | :53:59. | :54:01. | |
its members to be at the heart of any new policies. People were making | :54:02. | :54:04. | |
decisions in Brussels that could affect small communities, but they | :54:05. | :54:06. | |
probably didn't realise how much it was affecting these small | :54:07. | :54:08. | |
communities, and I think now we have a chance to change that, at that in | :54:09. | :54:10. | |
the future both Westminster Government is a Scottish | :54:11. | :54:12. | |
governments, regardless of who is in charge, will involve fishermen in | :54:13. | :54:14. | |
going forward. The industry's members may sometimes want different | :54:15. | :54:16. | |
things. Any new policies have to recognise that. Then, of course, it | :54:17. | :54:19. | |
is not just about profit. There is also the environment. Fishing is a | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
very complex business, and you have the inshore fishermen governed by | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
rules set within the United Kingdom prematurely, and bigger offshore | :54:29. | :54:31. | |
vessels primarily working within rules of the common fisheries | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
policy. Of course there will be differences between those groups. | :54:36. | :54:41. | |
What is really take bid key is that whatever the outcome of the | :54:42. | :54:47. | |
negotiations, the fishing industry has the highest credentials. Fish | :54:48. | :54:57. | |
stocks, jobs and export markets. As the sun sets, government and | :54:58. | :54:58. | |
industry have a long journey ahead. Well, to discuss some of those | :54:59. | :55:04. | |
issues in more detail are Bertie Armstrong, | :55:05. | :55:05. | |
the chief executive of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation, | :55:06. | :55:07. | |
and Chris Williams, project leader in fisheries and marine environment | :55:08. | :55:09. | |
at the New Economics Foundation. Bertie Armstrong, can I ask you | :55:10. | :55:18. | |
about how you think fisheries should operate? There has been a lot of | :55:19. | :55:21. | |
political rhetoric about some people saying that all controllable | :55:22. | :55:27. | |
fisheries should come to Scotland after Brexit, and others saying that | :55:28. | :55:30. | |
bits of it should be with London and bits should be with Edinburgh. From | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
a fishing point of view, would you want everything default, or are | :55:36. | :55:38. | |
there aspects of the fishing industry that would be better run | :55:39. | :55:43. | |
from the UK? The whole question is much more simple than that. The sea | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
of opportunity represented by this needs to have five seconds of | :55:48. | :55:54. | |
information. When we joined the Common fisheries industry, everyone | :55:55. | :56:00. | |
did as much as the good, and that was due to common access to water | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
is. When it became a downward spiral of overfishing and had to be limits, | :56:05. | :56:08. | |
the opportunity was sheer dot proportionally with what your track | :56:09. | :56:13. | |
record was when you've finished everywhere as hard as you like. So, | :56:14. | :56:23. | |
60% of our fish leave with non-UK fishing nations, which needs fixing. | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
That is the sea of opportunity. And the return of control and | :56:29. | :56:37. | |
sovereignty, which will happen automatically, will be the advantage | :56:38. | :56:39. | |
that comes to the entire fishing industry. I get that, what I am | :56:40. | :56:46. | |
asking you is whether what you have just described would best be done | :56:47. | :56:49. | |
entirely, I do not think anyone doubts that some control over | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
fisheries will come to Edinburgh, but is it a good thing if all of it | :56:54. | :56:59. | |
does? Or are there aspects that would be better if there were rules | :57:00. | :57:02. | |
for fishing boats that were the same across the UK. There are two macro | :57:03. | :57:07. | |
levels of government, one of them as day to day management which is | :57:08. | :57:12. | |
devolved already and will stay default. The big bit is the | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
international negotiations for fishing opportunity. We're talking | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
about 1 million of mackerel, half a million tonnes of herring and so on. | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
A really big or producing industry. Those negotiations on the | :57:28. | :57:28. | |
international stage, and of scores international stage, and of scores | :57:29. | :57:34. | |
-- of course Scotland's interest must be protected. When we're | :57:35. | :57:40. | |
talking about mackerel or blue whiting, on the international stage, | :57:41. | :57:42. | |
you would expect Scotland to lead and have a veto. If you're talking | :57:43. | :57:51. | |
about channel cod or place in Seoul, it would be ridiculous for the | :57:52. | :57:57. | |
Scottish voice to be in charge. -- plaice and sole. There are already | :57:58. | :58:03. | |
established things in place. But we need to make sure the right voices | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
at the table speaking for the right thing. We will not tolerate a | :58:08. | :58:14. | |
constitutional arm wrestle, when one is not required. It is obvious how | :58:15. | :58:16. | |
this should be organised, with the majority voice speaking on behalf of | :58:17. | :58:24. | |
that Scott, and the minority voice speaking on behalf of the other. Are | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
you concerned there may be a free for all? For all the criticism of | :58:30. | :58:34. | |
the common fisheries policy but cod stocks have recovered dramatically. | :58:35. | :58:39. | |
Is the danger that once Brexit happens, whatever the international | :58:40. | :58:42. | |
agreements are, that there will be some sort of free for all? Yes, | :58:43. | :58:47. | |
there are a few different things to say. The first is that over the last | :58:48. | :58:52. | |
decade, as you rightly identified, lots of the Northern stocks are | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
improving and I over the last ten years, the UK large-scale fleet is | :58:57. | :59:02. | |
the most profitable in Europe, running at 15% years ago, by 2014 | :59:03. | :59:08. | |
they reach 35%. It is astounding and a success story in large part | :59:09. | :59:14. | |
because of our shared management within the common fisheries policy. | :59:15. | :59:17. | |
There is also a risk of overfishing when individual countries that do | :59:18. | :59:24. | |
not have a shared management planning sure there are quarters. | :59:25. | :59:27. | |
The final point is one that relate to the earlier point about | :59:28. | :59:31. | |
differences in the industry. He's very correct in identifying the | :59:32. | :59:36. | |
large pelagic stocks of the North of Scotland that represents a big sea | :59:37. | :59:41. | |
of opportunity for his members but he also correctly identifies that in | :59:42. | :59:46. | |
the English Channel there is a sea of risk for small-scale fishermen | :59:47. | :59:50. | |
not own the rights. They represent three quarters of the fishing fleet, | :59:51. | :59:57. | |
but they are scrapping it out for 1.5% of the quota. So they are | :59:58. | :00:00. | |
concerned that fair distribution of quarter has devolved. Those same | :00:01. | :00:06. | |
small-scale fishermen are very highly dependent on exports, as your | :00:07. | :00:12. | |
piece identified, especially shellfish, to France, Italy and | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
Spain, and they are concerned about the impact of tariffs and other | :00:16. | :00:21. | |
things. Bertie Armstrong, what is venting your members doing what they | :00:22. | :00:23. | |
have done in the past after breakfast and fishing out of the | :00:24. | :00:30. | |
sea? That is dismissive, -- in the past after Brexit. That is | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
dismissive and insulting. The Scottish fishing fleet has never | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
been smaller, and the reduction in stocks is to do with sacrifices | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
among the fleet. It has happened in spite of the common fishing policy. | :00:43. | :00:51. | |
There is self-interest in that. Why on earth would we wish to destroy | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
the means of only if lewd? The simple answer is it has happened | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
before. The Canadians wiped out their own cod stock. Yes, but look | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
at the record of the Scottish fishing industry over the last | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
decade. You will see an entirely different position. It is not one | :01:12. | :01:18. | |
hacking through lessons of history, it is solid evidence of what | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
happened over the last decade and a half. So, the distribution of stocks | :01:22. | :01:28. | |
between -- catching opportunity between sectors is a source of | :01:29. | :01:36. | |
debate, which will continue. The important point to note is the will | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
be more opportunity for distribution. Chris Williams, | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
briefly, I think he has conceded there will be international | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
negotiations, which will largely be with the EU because of its EU boats | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
that want quotas in these waters. How will that work? Something like | :01:56. | :02:03. | |
80% of Danish fish are caught in UK waters. They will lose their jobs if | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
we didn't negotiate some deal with them? It is fair to say that there | :02:08. | :02:16. | |
are lots of European countries that fish our waters, they are landing | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
four times UK vessels within Audi exclusive economic zone. But if we | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
were to man that additional 650,000 tonnes of ourselves, do we have the | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
capacity to catch it and process it and market it? Those are questions | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
Bertie will probably have the answer to. Briefly, Bertie. Yes, we have | :02:36. | :02:43. | |
the capacity to catch. The law will change, and with the greatest regret | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
and sympathy for Danish colleagues, what will happen to them will happen | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
to us -- will be what happened two hours after excellent. The | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
sovereignty of the resource changes so they are losers and winners. That | :02:56. | :03:01. | |
is the consequence. The winners will sustainably be us, in the United | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
Kingdom. Having said that... Sorry, we have to leave it there. | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
Well, it's been quite a week in Europe. | :03:11. | :03:11. | |
The long-awaited Brexit talks finally got underway, | :03:12. | :03:13. | |
but there was a lukewarm response to Theresa May's summit proposal | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
I'm joined by Brussels' watcher Ryan Heath for his take | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
on events so far and a look at what lies ahead. | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
What do you think, we know the reaction in Europe has been pretty | :03:27. | :03:35. | |
half-hearted to the individual -- the initial proposals on | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
citizenships. More broadly, what approach are they taking at the | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
moment. The key strength beer has is it as being very united, which is | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
something that is in short supply on the British side of the | :03:51. | :03:53. | |
negotiations. Soak in Brussels people were annoyed at the way she | :03:54. | :04:05. | |
offered the citizenship discussions. They did not expect her to come | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
through the side door whether it. But they have united position, and | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
the UK seems to be more defining its ability to be strong, to host seeks | :04:15. | :04:21. | |
it it can be or its position can be, rather than havoc mobilises the | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
country behind it. So people here in Brussels are comfortable at the | :04:26. | :04:27. | |
moment, but frustrated at the way the UK Government is handling the | :04:28. | :04:29. | |
situation. The British government keeps saying, David Davis has been | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
on television this morning, saying people in Europe, they want to do a | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
free trade deal, they want to do a tariff free deal with us, they want | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
to let us have access to Europe, and for them to have access to the UK | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
with the minimum of hassle. Are those the vibes in Brussels, that | :04:52. | :04:53. | |
everyone cannot wait to accommodate the United Kingdom? It is not quite | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
that they cannot wait to accommodate the UK, but they realise that the | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
economic interest is interest in doing the deal. The UK is | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
fundamentally correct that assessment, but EU is also to take a | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
hit if it means preserving the single market and it means sending a | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
lesson to others who might want to leave. The UK could be the victim of | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
the EU willing to stick to its guns. But hopefully they are willing to | :05:21. | :05:23. | |
compromise and both sides are willing to simply put common sense | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
positions at the table, rather than a wind loss situation. Unless all | :05:27. | :05:38. | |
the discussions that year about trading goods, but Britain is | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
largely a trait -- a service industry. If there are parallel | :05:44. | :05:51. | |
willingness to negotiate free access for British services along with | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
goods? That an excellent point and, yes there is the great dirty secret | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
of the EU is that it treats the single market as it sacred cow. The | :06:04. | :06:13. | |
EU defines itself as being. It doesn't really exist much for the | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
services sector, so the single market is a bit of a myth. It has to | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
do it via service trade deals because it doesn't exist | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
independently of the trade deal. So there is a strong interest to keep | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
on a centrist track and they would just like to have a stable | :06:34. | :06:35. | |
government to negotiate with and they want to know that the UK is | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
going to be there in six months or problems time. That is where if the | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
UK can provide an front there can be a deal. Ryan Heath, thank you very | :06:44. | :06:51. | |
much. I have to just bring some sadness that it's just been | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
announced that Gordon Wilson, the former SNP leader, has died. He | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
passed away earlier in hospital. He was leader of the next SNP from 1979 | :07:04. | :07:12. | |
to 1990. And as a regular guest on this programme. Time now for a look | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
at the week ahead. With me now are author | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
and journalist Katie Grant, who's alongside Sunday Times columnist | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
and former SNP strategic communications director, | :07:31. | :07:32. | |
Kevin Pringle. wrote Kevin that is sad news about | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
good and Wilson, who will be less. Very sad indeed, my condolences to | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
his family. I first worked with the SNP way back in 1989 and Gordon was | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
the leader. He held that seat of Dundee East on the way through the | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
1980s and very well many ways and untypical seat, and urban seat. He | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
kept the party going through difficult times and three better | :07:59. | :08:06. | |
times that lay ahead. Scottish life is a huge amount of Gordon -- to | :08:07. | :08:13. | |
Gordon so today huge condolences to his family. , I imagine you didn't | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
agree with much he said, Katie, but nonetheless he was always great fun | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
and he was never shy of sticking a bard into the consensus when he | :08:24. | :08:31. | |
fancied it? No, that will certainly be missed, so I do think that | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
Scotland has lost somebody whose name will remain in the history | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
books. We've lost, yak, I'm sorry about that. It seems we don't have | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
many people who can do those sort of barbed things and make a point and | :08:46. | :08:53. | |
get away with it. He was held in regard, right across parties, wasn't | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
he? Some of his views, on things like same-sex marriage, were perhaps | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
not in tune with the consensus in Scottish Parliament, but, | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
nonetheless, he was regarded as not just good fun but as a serious | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
thinker. And he was a serious thinker, wasn't he? He was, he was | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
sometimes criticised for being a bit too moderate, but I always notice | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
that within the party that he was always prepared to take a punt on a | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
radical position if he thought it was justified and woodwork. The best | :09:25. | :09:35. | |
example... It was a good tradition. As we got to hear, Kevin, Nicola | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
Sturgeon is supposedly thinking long and hard. It used to be your job to | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
do that, what would your advice be? What she should do about the second | :09:46. | :09:52. | |
independence referendum? She does when thinking in that is right. I | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
think that retaining a choice of independence is the right position. | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
I think we're looking at the time scale at the moment. I think | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
Scotland is in a better position than most of the rest of the UK... | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
The timetable is crucial, if Nicola was to say, look were not going to | :10:11. | :10:17. | |
go until the mid-20 20s. We'll stand in the next election and put it to | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
discuss people then that's one thing, but to suggest that they | :10:23. | :10:29. | |
might have a referendum before the next Scottish election before 2021, | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
that leaves and open to the accusation that they are just | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
obsessed with the independence. It leaves open the issue of choice. | :10:38. | :10:46. | |
Scotland had voted substantially to retain, as Northern Ireland, these | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
two project the UK have a democratic choice... 60% voted for parties who | :10:52. | :10:59. | |
had Britain at the top of their manifest didn't they? Eye you can | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
look at the fact that the SNP you deliver the fact that the SNP and | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
the majority of seats in the Scottish Parliament last year, but I | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
think Nicholas stood to put the issue in the context of choice -- | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
Nicola Sturgeon will want to put it in the context of choice. The | :11:19. | :11:25. | |
locations are Brexit, when they come clear at the end of the | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
negotiations, or potentially through to the actual exit itself, as we | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
speak that timescale is very unclear. These things will only | :11:34. | :11:36. | |
become clear as the negotiations go on. And in the UK wide programme I | :11:37. | :11:43. | |
heard them talking about the trade act that are not really giving any | :11:44. | :11:51. | |
exits antlers on that Young antlers on that. Is any sustainable pension, | :11:52. | :11:58. | |
because of course Rick Davis is going to say aha? I would say that | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
that is just like Ian Blackford trying to enter the question. Once | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
the locations are Brexit become clear, which will probably become | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
clear in the short term, job losses in the UK. The prospect of an | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
independent Scotland departing from the UK is B even less attractive. | :12:20. | :12:25. | |
Hang on, I know you against independence but you can't expect | :12:26. | :12:28. | |
Kevin to be against independence. The question is whether it is now | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
necessary for the Scottish Government to take that threat, or | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
opportunity as they would say, off the table in order to start | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
haemorrhaging votes. Because, you won the election, a 21 seat last, | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
and as John Swinney has accepted, the referenda in business was part | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
of that. Do they need to stop the haemorrhaging? Well, I suppose it | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
comes along on many different levels. In order to stop the | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
haemorrhaging of votes, it's not just about Brexit, it's about the | :13:04. | :13:10. | |
domestic record. They do need to concentrate on the day job. I'm just | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
saying that as a general thing, if you want to stop haemorrhaging | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
votes, you need to stop really concentrating an independence | :13:19. | :13:20. | |
referendum them and DJ job. Anyway referendum them and DJ job. Anyway | :13:21. | :13:28. | |
-- D-Day job, they got themselves into a position where they have to | :13:29. | :13:31. | |
talk about the referendum when they that Italy is profitable thing. Were | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
easy to an MP was hanging on by tender hundreds and some of them | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
are, what you say to them? I think we have to say that after Brexit | :13:44. | :13:51. | |
it's increasingly attracted to have that choice. It's fundamentally | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
about the choice of the people to decide the future and I think that | :13:55. | :14:01. | |
is a popular position. That's the same position that they had before | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
the election? I think they will find that the timescale is different and | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
it is an attractive proposition of itself. Sadly that all the time we | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
have for this week. I'll be back next week, until then, goodbye? . | :14:13. | :14:19. | |
MUSIC: Spring from The Four Seasons by Vivaldi | :14:20. | :14:21. |