25/06/2017 Sunday Politics Scotland


25/06/2017

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer are joined by trade minister Lord Price, shadow cabinet office minister Jon Trickett MP and losing Unite general secretary candidate Gerard Coyne.


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Transcript


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:42.

After the Grenfell Tower disaster, 34 tower blocks in 17 council areas

:00:43.:00:47.

in England have failed emergency fire safety tests, but not

:00:48.:00:50.

every building that fails will be evacuated.

:00:51.:00:52.

The government promises Britain will be a strong global

:00:53.:00:58.

trading power after Brexit, as negotiations get under way,

:00:59.:01:01.

we'll ask the international trade minister how.

:01:02.:01:04.

As Jeremy Corbyn celebrates his new rock-star status

:01:05.:01:08.

with a trip to Glastonbury, will the Labour leader

:01:09.:01:13.

The new SNP leader at Westminster, Ian Blackford, explains why

:01:14.:01:18.

he thinks it's only a matter of time before the Scottish Government get

:01:19.:01:20.

And with me throughout, our own supergroup of political

:01:21.:01:36.

pundits who'll be wowing the crowds throughout the programme,

:01:37.:01:38.

Helen Lewis, Tim Shipman and Isabel Oakeshott.

:01:39.:01:40.

They'll also be tweeting using the hashtag bbcsp.

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First, though, the government has confirmed that over 30 tower blocks

:01:44.:01:46.

across England have now failed an emergency fire safety test,

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following the Grenfall Tower disaster in which 79 people

:01:51.:01:53.

According to the government the cladding from 34 tower blocks

:01:54.:02:01.

has been tested and all of them have failed the combustibility test.

:02:02.:02:04.

The government plans to examine up to

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600 blocks and claim they can test 100 a day.

:02:09.:02:12.

The areas affected so far include Manchester, Plymouth and Portsmouth

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as well as the London boroughs of Barnet, Brent, Camden

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and Hounslow; all the relevant landlords and fire services

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Camden has already evacuated residents from

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650 flats whilst other councils have introduced interim measures such

:02:30.:02:33.

as 24-hour fire warden patrols to mitigate the risk before

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When you look at the national scale of this, this goes beyond austerity

:02:37.:02:47.

and finger-pointing at individual councils, this is a clear national

:02:48.:02:53.

system failure for the country. I'm surprised the response has been as

:02:54.:02:56.

muted as it has been, and initially there was a huge response. It is

:02:57.:03:01.

striking how every single building they test seems to fail these

:03:02.:03:05.

regulations, so people are slightly confused about whether this is the

:03:06.:03:08.

regulations at fault or the cladding that is at fault and I think what is

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most alarming to people, the insecurity. Some people have been

:03:14.:03:17.

told to evacuate and that is what happened in Camden and they were

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told until late at night. It is difficult for people to take pets

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outcome and other people have been told to stay in the commendation

:03:25.:03:29.

that may or may not be flammable. They have put fire wardens in

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instead. There is a problem that people feel this is a problem about

:03:34.:03:39.

social housing but not all of these are about social housing, but about

:03:40.:03:43.

the neglect to people that several successive governments have shown.

:03:44.:03:48.

People will wonder why the building regulations allow or the building

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regulations were flouted in a way that allowed so much inflammable

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material to clad our buildings. If you look in other countries,

:03:58.:04:01.

America, Germany, some of this is banned, and some people said some of

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the stuff has been put up in this country has also been banned and

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this shows what a disaster housing policy has been in this country for

:04:11.:04:14.

a generation. Neither party has been able to get a grip on it. There are

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several failures of the Tory council but Labour was in charge of putting

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this stuff into housing associations, where the controls

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have not been very good over long period, and what we need to do is

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build more homes and every government announces they are going

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to build more homes. Hopefully using the right material. Yes, but none of

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these governors have been able to build enough homes and we have a

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crisis of stock where people are put into houses like battery hens,

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frankly, in places where most people would not want to take a second

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look. Looking at Grenfell Tower, if that had not been clad, if they had

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kept the old concrete facade committee would not have gone up in

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fire. This has been a failure of government with a small G, national

:05:02.:05:06.

and local, Labour and Conservatives. Absolutely. It is not just about

:05:07.:05:12.

residential accommodation, hospitals might have this material, I'm

:05:13.:05:15.

hearing, and schools. Politically the challenge for the government,

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there is a huge logistical and humanitarian challenge but also the

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politics of it, as you rightly say, that this isn't just something which

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is linked directly to Tory austerity. The government now, the

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initial shock has worn off, and the challenge for the government is to

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make it clear that this is not just their direct responsibility and the

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result of the Tory cuts agenda and there are plenty of Labour councils

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who also have responsibility. Given the national crisis and the national

:05:48.:05:51.

failure, the government needs to be seen to get a grip on this.

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Absolutely. Most MPs would say they... Their response has been

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slightly more convincing than it was early on, but there are still huge

:06:02.:06:05.

potential for this to snowball especially if we have other

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buildings, not just residential, affected. There has been a change in

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the national mood, you see this in the Conservative Party. The word

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austerity was barely mentioned. Philip Hammond has relaxed his

:06:17.:06:22.

targets. Local councils bore the brunt of the cuts and they won't

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take any more, there is that sense, the people are tired of that.

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Indeed. OK. The Government says it will deliver

:06:28.:06:31.

a Brexit deal which will allow the UK to become a powerful global

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trading nation with the EU This morning the Brexit Secretary,

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David Davis, told the BBC he was certain he'd be able to get

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a good trade deal with Brussels, in part because of pressure

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from businesses within the EU. I mean it's not just

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the German car industry, it's Bavarian farmers,

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French farmers, Italian white goods manufacturers,

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you name it. The balance of trade basically

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is 230 billion from us to them, They have a very strong interest

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in getting a good deal, at the end of the day,

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on all sides on trade. And I've been joined

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by the Trade Minister Mark Price. Welcome to the programme. There are

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five main national business organisations in Britain and all of

:07:18.:07:20.

them want minimal custom checks after Brexit between the UK and the

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EU, how can you do that if we are leaving the customs union? There's a

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difference between the customs union and the customs arrangements. It is

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not that binary, you are not either in or out, you can work which with

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ever party you want, you have customs arrangements, which work to

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the benefit of business. That would need to cover all of the EU? You

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can't do that in bilateral business with members of the EU, it needs to

:07:52.:07:56.

be all of them? The negotiations will be with the commission and they

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will work on behalf of all EU members. I attend the trade

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ministers meeting and I've been four times since Brexit, and the mood is

:08:05.:08:08.

very positive about the relationship they want with the UK going forward.

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We have frictionless trade by being in the customs union at the moment,

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you can import into this country, and then they go seamlessly to the

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rest of the EU because everything coming into the EU comes in on the

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same terms, but if we are not in the customs union any more, how can you

:08:27.:08:31.

have that frictionless trade? You look at Harris first of all, and at

:08:32.:08:34.

the moment we are tariff free, but if you look at the arrangement like

:08:35.:08:38.

the Canadian trade Guild, it is 98% tariff free, -- the trade deal. The

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Canadian deal is not a customs deal. What I'm asking you is about the

:08:52.:08:56.

stuff coming into Britain which at the moment can then go seamlessly to

:08:57.:09:01.

the rest of the EU, and will not be able to do so if we are not in the

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customs union. I'm trying to explain the preconditions for having a

:09:06.:09:12.

customs arrangements, the first is, can tariff the parable of the -- the

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first is tariff, and then at the moment we take 56% of our goods from

:09:25.:09:28.

outside the EU. We have electronic passing of documentation and I'm

:09:29.:09:33.

told that 96% will go through within six seconds, and so we are not a

:09:34.:09:37.

novice to this and we all be do this with countries all over the world.

:09:38.:09:41.

We trade with 163 countries around the world, we are not building from

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no experience and no base. We have a place that we are working from. To

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do it sector by sector could take a long wire which is maybe why the

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Chancellor is now talking about a transitional period for single

:09:55.:10:00.

market access may be membership, and the customs union, how long a

:10:01.:10:03.

transition period are we looking at? Who knows. We will see how we get

:10:04.:10:12.

on. One year, two years? Who knows. From the European and UK perspective

:10:13.:10:17.

we want a smooth transition and this is what trade ministers are saying

:10:18.:10:20.

across Europe, this is not just a British desire. I have heard

:10:21.:10:24.

interviews with several European parliamentarians who say they want

:10:25.:10:27.

to move to a smooth transition and they would like a period of time to

:10:28.:10:30.

do that if we can't do that inside the initial period. Will we be able

:10:31.:10:36.

to make free trade deals with countries outside the EU in this

:10:37.:10:41.

transition period? We have a host of arrangements at the moment, but it

:10:42.:10:45.

is not that simple. With the EU we are party to about 40 trade deals by

:10:46.:10:50.

the time we go, and we will work with those countries to transition

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them. But in the transition period, can we make a free-trade deal with

:10:55.:11:00.

America or China? Can we do that? We have set up nine working groups at

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the moment with 15 different countries and what we are working

:11:05.:11:08.

through is how do we make sure when we leave the EU that the current

:11:09.:11:11.

arrangements that we have are carried forward, Liam Fox last week

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was in America and there are 20 agreements with America. We can talk

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about the current trading relationship, how do we make things

:11:20.:11:23.

better for our businesses in those countries in the way that customs

:11:24.:11:27.

work and the way their businesses are handled and then we can start

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thinking about how do we shape a future deal. In a transition period,

:11:30.:11:35.

can we strike a free-trade deal with a third party? No, we can't. We

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can't sign or negotiate. During the transition period? This is during

:11:44.:11:49.

the two-year period, but in the transition period that depends what

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we agree with the EU. Businesses want tariff free trade to continue

:11:54.:11:58.

between the EU and the UK. What indications have you had that the EU

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will agree to this? Businesses who want tariff free trade to continue.

:12:07.:12:13.

Between the UK and the EU. In all the discussion that I've had with

:12:14.:12:17.

trade ministers, and I've spoken to them all over the last year, there

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is a great appetite to impose tariffs where none exist today and

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as I've mentioned, the Canadian deal is 98% tariff free but also today,

:12:30.:12:32.

what we have said, we will make sure that for the least developed

:12:33.:12:36.

country, 48 of them, we give them preferential access to the UK, no

:12:37.:12:40.

tariffs or rotors, and there's another group of countries that we

:12:41.:12:48.

give reduced access to as well. What about tariff free trade between the

:12:49.:12:53.

EU and the UK? I think they will be keen to give us that. But no yes,

:12:54.:12:58.

despite all these meetings. We have got to sit down and negotiate, but

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the spirit is a good one. People in Europe want to get into a good place

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with us, why? Because the trade surplus with the UK is... I know all

:13:08.:13:17.

the reasons. Euro France only runs a surplus with four countries and we

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are one of them. So the indications are good? Yes, around the world,

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since Brexit, I visited 31 countries and I've met with 70 ministers and I

:13:27.:13:34.

have seen this. Let me come onto immigration. Businesses have also

:13:35.:13:43.

called for a flexible system of skills and Labour, so what system do

:13:44.:13:48.

you imagine? You have heard from the government that we don't want to

:13:49.:13:53.

harm our economy, and in Europe we have heard very loud and clear that

:13:54.:13:56.

people want to be able to source the right people for their businesses.

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What will the system be? Tomorrow the Prime Minister is going to make

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an announcement. That is about EU citizens already here, but what will

:14:08.:14:12.

the broad principles be under which people from the EU can come here to

:14:13.:14:17.

work? That will be in the paper that will be set up, we have the

:14:18.:14:20.

immigration bill coming forward, but we don't want to harm the UK

:14:21.:14:25.

economy. What is the priority? In your manifesto you had a policy of

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reducing net migration to the tens of thousands, so what is the

:14:31.:14:33.

priority, hitting Matt Targett or a system that meets the flexible needs

:14:34.:14:40.

of the economy? -- that target. It is a difficult call. I would say

:14:41.:14:44.

meeting the needs of the economy are hugely important. What is more

:14:45.:14:49.

important? The part of the jigsaw that is missing is what happens to

:14:50.:14:53.

the shape of the Labour force in the UK as we move into the digital

:14:54.:14:57.

error. The British consortium have said they will need 900,000 fewer

:14:58.:15:03.

workers in retail in ten years' time in every industry is being reshaped,

:15:04.:15:07.

and to take a point in time and say this is right... I'm asking for a

:15:08.:15:12.

general principle, what is more important, hitting the target or

:15:13.:15:16.

keeping immigration that is flexible to the economy? If you asked me as a

:15:17.:15:22.

businessman, for 30 years, I would say it is through the success of

:15:23.:15:25.

business and the success of our economy that we can afford the

:15:26.:15:30.

social services that we want. As a government minister we need to work

:15:31.:15:32.

through over the course of the next 2-3 years, but Bill through

:15:33.:15:36.

Parliament and decide where we get to, we have said there is a target

:15:37.:15:41.

of tens of thousands, and my personal view, given the digital

:15:42.:15:45.

changes, that is a perfectly reasonable target for us.

:15:46.:15:51.

Business says what they really need is clarity. One year after we voted

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to leave, what clarity have you brought to these issues this

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morning? That is a very good question. I think we have set out

:16:02.:16:07.

the principles. You cannot tell me the principles of immigration, the

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principles on which the customs union will operate, or the economy

:16:12.:16:15.

or hitting a target will be more important for immigration. The Prime

:16:16.:16:21.

Minister has set out what we intend to achieve. Through the Queen's

:16:22.:16:25.

speech will bring a different bills that address these issues. They will

:16:26.:16:30.

be there for Parliament to discuss, there will be consultation papers

:16:31.:16:34.

and business can be involved with that. We will be consulting and

:16:35.:16:39.

there will be a vote. That is process. I'm afraid we have run out

:16:40.:16:45.

of time, but that is processed. What you want us to do is to be able to

:16:46.:16:49.

say this is definitively what we will be able to get, but there are

:16:50.:16:56.

two site. If I was buying a business in Waitrose, I couldn't tell you

:16:57.:17:01.

what the outcome would be. I was simply asking what the Government's

:17:02.:17:08.

aim was. That has clearly been set out by the Prime Minister. Thank

:17:09.:17:09.

you. Jeremy Corbyn confounded his critics

:17:10.:17:13.

in the general election, increasing Labour's share

:17:14.:17:15.

of the vote and securing So will the Corbynistas use

:17:16.:17:17.

the result to strengthen Our reporter Emma Vardy

:17:18.:17:20.

has been finding out. Enjoying superstar

:17:21.:17:23.

status at Glastonbury. Since when did being

:17:24.:17:28.

a politician become this cool? Do you know, politics is actually

:17:29.:17:32.

about everyday life. It's about all of us

:17:33.:17:38.

and what we dream and what we want and what we achieve and what we want

:17:39.:17:41.

for everybody else. # Staying out for the summer,

:17:42.:17:44.

playing games in the rain It's looking like the summer

:17:45.:17:53.

of love for Jeremy Corbyn. As he basks in his post-election

:17:54.:18:03.

glow, well, as much as you can bask So, is all that bitter infighting

:18:04.:18:06.

in the party a distant memory Jeremy will stay the Labour leader

:18:07.:18:13.

now as long as he wants to do so. He's come back from the dead

:18:14.:18:21.

in terms of the predictions and so he will remain Labour leader

:18:22.:18:24.

for as long as he wants. Let's recognise that another world

:18:25.:18:29.

is possible if we come together. Former Corbyn critics like John Mann

:18:30.:18:40.

MP have been eating humble pie. The big issue for Jeremy now is,

:18:41.:18:43.

is he going to hold his people in and stop any factional battling

:18:44.:18:46.

in the Labour Party, and there are people on both

:18:47.:18:49.

sides of the old divide in the Labour Party who love nothing

:18:50.:18:51.

better than internal wrangling. Or is he going to consolidate his

:18:52.:18:55.

position and bring the Labour Party together and be a potential

:18:56.:18:58.

Prime Minister in waiting? The centrist Labour group Progress

:18:59.:19:02.

which had been associated with some of Corbyn's harshest critics says

:19:03.:19:04.

now the party is more In the general election,

:19:05.:19:07.

the Labour Party worked together, Labour MPs put their strongest foot

:19:08.:19:27.

forward in getting re-elected in their seats the national campaign

:19:28.:19:29.

pulled through and party staff We have shown that when we pull

:19:30.:19:32.

together we are a strong force. # Staying out for the summer,

:19:33.:19:36.

staying up for the summer #. Before the election,

:19:37.:19:39.

a number of party rule changes had been up for debate as pro and

:19:40.:19:41.

anti-Corbyn factions looked for ways So has all that now being kicked

:19:42.:19:44.

into the long grass? Any attempts to try and undermine

:19:45.:19:48.

Tom Watson as deputy leader, appoint a second deputy leader,

:19:49.:19:50.

attack the party staff, change the party rules,

:19:51.:19:53.

will show the public out there that the Labour Party is more

:19:54.:19:55.

interested in itself rather But will also put at risk that

:19:56.:19:57.

unity, that is fragile and quite frankly now,

:19:58.:20:02.

is led from the top. The way in which internal

:20:03.:20:06.

hostilities would recommend The way in which internal

:20:07.:20:10.

hostilities would recommence would be if there was a return

:20:11.:20:13.

to some of the sectarianism that we So if there were attempts

:20:14.:20:17.

to deselect MPs and councillors, those MPs and councillors

:20:18.:20:21.

are going to fight If there are attempts to cross

:20:22.:20:23.

a limited number of policy red lines on things like Trident renewal,

:20:24.:20:31.

again that would cause And if there are attempts to change

:20:32.:20:33.

the rule book of the party in a way that just gives blatant partisan

:20:34.:20:43.

advantage, then again it would cause divisions to re-emerge,

:20:44.:20:45.

but there's no need for them to do On policy and personnel, the ball

:20:46.:20:48.

is in Jeremy Corbyn's court. There will be a debate

:20:49.:20:52.

at conference, though, on what some are calling

:20:53.:20:55.

the McDonnell Amendment. A rule change that would lower

:20:56.:20:57.

the number of nominations needed Those on the left of the party have

:20:58.:21:00.

been accused of plotting to make it easier for a left-wing candidate

:21:01.:21:06.

to stand for leadership to succeed I think that opinion at conference

:21:07.:21:09.

is finely balanced on that. Because the elections

:21:10.:21:20.

for constituency delegates seem to be on a knife edge

:21:21.:21:22.

between the left and the right. We will know the outcome of those

:21:23.:21:26.

around the 9th of July And then it all depends

:21:27.:21:29.

on the attitude taken by a couple of the big unions like

:21:30.:21:36.

the GMB and Unison, about this proposal than Unite

:21:37.:21:38.

and the more left-wing unions are. Meanwhile, here at the Jeremy Corbyn

:21:39.:21:46.

supporting Momentum HQ, they believe there could be another

:21:47.:21:57.

general election within six months and are remaining

:21:58.:22:00.

in full campaign mode. We're going to be targeting

:22:01.:22:02.

new marginals and we're going to be training thousands of activists

:22:03.:22:05.

in those marginal constituencies and we going to be developing

:22:06.:22:07.

new technological platforms to make it easy for people to get

:22:08.:22:09.

involved in the election. Safe to say, they're

:22:10.:22:12.

feeling rather vindicated. Many of those who were bitterly

:22:13.:22:14.

opposed to Jeremy Corbyn have eaten their words

:22:15.:22:18.

and have apologised. Look, in the general election

:22:19.:22:20.

campaign, we campaigned for all Labour candidates

:22:21.:22:24.

in our target seats and marginal seats, irrespective of where they

:22:25.:22:31.

stood in the past on Jeremy Corbyn. We helped win seats for candidates

:22:32.:22:36.

who supported Progress, just as hard as we helped win seats

:22:37.:22:40.

for those who had always supported Jeremy and that's the way

:22:41.:22:46.

we are going to carry on. Well, I think that will last

:22:47.:22:48.

till the next election because we all want to

:22:49.:22:52.

win the next election. # Staying out for the summer,

:22:53.:22:54.

staying out for the summer #. For now, he's the man of the moment,

:22:55.:23:02.

but is this performance the peak of his popularity, or the precursor

:23:03.:23:07.

to Labour winning power? Before the general election

:23:08.:23:11.

was called, a proxy-battle for the future of the Labour party

:23:12.:23:19.

was played out in the election of the general secretary

:23:20.:23:27.

of Unite, the union, The incumbent, Len McClusky,

:23:28.:23:29.

who had put his weight behind Jeremy Corbyn,

:23:30.:23:36.

faced a challenge from Gerard Coyne, who was seen to be the Labour

:23:37.:23:38.

moderates' choice. Gerard Coyne narrowly lost,

:23:39.:23:41.

and this week he was sacked from his Unite position

:23:42.:23:43.

as a regional secretary. Good morning. You say you have been

:23:44.:23:50.

the victim of a kangaroo court and a short trial, what do you mean by

:23:51.:23:55.

that? After 29 years' service with the union I found myself dismissed

:23:56.:24:01.

for a trumped up charge that related to the election but was about

:24:02.:24:05.

nothing that relates directly to my role as a regional secretary so it

:24:06.:24:10.

showed to me that defence now cannot be tolerated inside Unite and that's

:24:11.:24:16.

a very concerning situation. The union says you were sacked for

:24:17.:24:19.

misuse of data during the leadership election campaign. You say it's

:24:20.:24:23.

because you have the audacity to challenge Len McCluskey. What's the

:24:24.:24:27.

evidence to support your side? The independent body appointed by the

:24:28.:24:33.

union to oversee the election this week produced a report that said in

:24:34.:24:36.

relation to the data issue there was no evidence I breached any rules and

:24:37.:24:43.

no evidence I breached the election guidance so actually the union's own

:24:44.:24:47.

independent body has exonerated me this week. You said "It's beyond

:24:48.:24:52.

parody that I is a 30 year member of the Labour Party should be accused

:24:53.:25:02.

of harming Unite Labour relations by Len McCluskey's chief of staff..."

:25:03.:25:09.

What do you mean by that? The investigation and the decision

:25:10.:25:12.

reached actually shows a much more concerning element about the

:25:13.:25:18.

involvement in the campaign and election that reflects badly in

:25:19.:25:22.

terms of his position as a member of the Communist Party and the sort of

:25:23.:25:27.

quite frankly Stalinist approach to the treatment I have received. So

:25:28.:25:32.

actually it was a show trial I endured recently and I don't believe

:25:33.:25:35.

I have received a fair process at all. And in this, in your words show

:25:36.:25:42.

trial, did this Unite leadership regard you as an enemy of the

:25:43.:25:47.

proletariat? The truth is they were very keen to see the descent and the

:25:48.:25:52.

different vision I have got for Unite which was focused on our

:25:53.:25:56.

members and protecting them in a difficult set of circumstances. They

:25:57.:26:01.

wanted to stamp out that voice which was one which was articulated in a

:26:02.:26:05.

different way for the union to go in the future. But you had lost. Yes

:26:06.:26:12.

but on a very small majority, and there were thousands of Unite voters

:26:13.:26:16.

that didn't have a chance to vote, which is why I'm now mounting a

:26:17.:26:20.

legal challenge to the election results and we are going to make

:26:21.:26:25.

sure it is rerun and given the opportunity to those members. So you

:26:26.:26:30.

think you have a claim in law? To put a ten point claim into the

:26:31.:26:35.

certification Officer, that has already gone in challenging the

:26:36.:26:39.

result on ten individual counts as to how it was not properly run in

:26:40.:26:45.

the first place. Do you have confidence in the certification

:26:46.:26:48.

Officer in that process or do you think you might end up in the High

:26:49.:26:52.

Court? If the certification Officer doesn't rule in favour of what I

:26:53.:27:00.

think is a strong case coming have to ask the question what is this

:27:01.:27:04.

certification Officer for, in that case I will be considering the High

:27:05.:27:10.

Court. If you are right about the way you were treated, what does it

:27:11.:27:14.

say about British trade unionism in the 21st-century that you can be

:27:15.:27:17.

sacked by your union for standing up to the boss? I expect to have a

:27:18.:27:25.

robust debate in a democratic election and not to be punished for

:27:26.:27:32.

it. I did engage in what was quite an interesting debate through the

:27:33.:27:36.

election campaign, but I've also served the union the 29 years and

:27:37.:27:40.

for most employees if they have had that length of service, some

:27:41.:27:45.

consideration would have been given to that. But Len McCluskey has been

:27:46.:27:51.

re-elected leader, Jeremy Corbyn now rules the Labour Party unchallenged.

:27:52.:27:56.

Andrew Murray, who you say mounted the show trial against you, was a

:27:57.:28:01.

key part of Jeremy Corbyn's election campaign. It does look like you've

:28:02.:28:07.

lost on all fronts. Jeremy did exceptionally well in the general

:28:08.:28:11.

election campaign, he got young people involved, and it's not about

:28:12.:28:15.

a left or right issue in terms of the party, it's about where the

:28:16.:28:20.

party goes. My fear is that the way I've treated will start to give an

:28:21.:28:25.

influence in the Labour movement or generally in the Labour Party that

:28:26.:28:29.

starts to look like purges are acceptable. If Labour does that, the

:28:30.:28:34.

electorate will never forgive them for an internal battle rather than

:28:35.:28:37.

being the effective opposition they need to be. Are you saying that what

:28:38.:28:42.

you believe happened to you could happen to other people now in the

:28:43.:28:46.

Labour Party itself? I think there is a real danger of that. The

:28:47.:28:51.

reality is the very people involved at the top of Unite, involved in the

:28:52.:28:57.

disciplinary process with myself, they are influential figures in

:28:58.:29:01.

Labour and part of my campaign is that Unite is too intrinsically

:29:02.:29:04.

linked with the top of the Labour Party and ready to be focusing on a

:29:05.:29:08.

much stronger industrial agenda for the future. If you have been a

:29:09.:29:12.

member of the Labour Party for 30 years. We have now been dismissed

:29:13.:29:16.

from your job is regional secretary I think in the West Midlands area?

:29:17.:29:23.

That's right. Have you heard from the Labour leadership on this issue?

:29:24.:29:28.

I haven't, and in terms of the leadership it would be nice to hear

:29:29.:29:32.

from them because we lost seats in the West Midlands, we should have

:29:33.:29:39.

felt onto, where working-class vote did not stay with Labour and it's

:29:40.:29:43.

important we reach out to and engage with those communities and make sure

:29:44.:29:46.

they support Labour in the future. Gerard Coyne, thank you for being

:29:47.:29:51.

with us. I've been joined now from Leeds

:29:52.:29:55.

by Labour's Jon Trickett, Welcome to the programme. Jeremy

:29:56.:30:07.

Corbyn says he wants to unite the party behind him, so why didn't he

:30:08.:30:10.

use the Shadow Cabinet reshuffle to do just that? First of all, why

:30:11.:30:18.

would he change a winning team? We did a very good election campaign,

:30:19.:30:23.

if we did not -- even if we did not quite get over the line. The Shadow

:30:24.:30:26.

Cabinet worked very hard to get their result, but there are

:30:27.:30:30.

vacancies and they were used to reach out and we have brought in the

:30:31.:30:34.

man who stood against Jeremy not that long ago in a tough battle for

:30:35.:30:40.

the leadership. I think that shows a leader who is reaching out, but also

:30:41.:30:44.

wanting to make sure that he keeps a winning team. That is a reasonable

:30:45.:30:48.

decision for him to make. What do you say to Gerard Coyne, Labour

:30:49.:30:53.

member 30 years, who believes he has been purged from the Unite union and

:30:54.:31:00.

that could be about to happen to Labour moderates in the party? There

:31:01.:31:06.

will be no purge. We want everyone together, what is remarkable is,

:31:07.:31:11.

when the so-called coup happened last year, when the PLP turned

:31:12.:31:15.

against Jeremy, our poll rating collapsed and as soon as the party

:31:16.:31:20.

reunited for the election the poll rating began to increase and that is

:31:21.:31:25.

a lesson for everyone. The lesson has been learned by all of us and we

:31:26.:31:29.

will work together as United party moving forward, but what should be

:31:30.:31:33.

clear to everyone, we cannot go back to the Labour Party as it was

:31:34.:31:37.

previously. He had got to move forward with Jeremy in the direction

:31:38.:31:40.

in which he has laid out for the party and the country. What do you

:31:41.:31:44.

say to Paul Mason, former journalists. -- former journalist.

:31:45.:31:50.

He said to Blair writes that if you want a centrist party, this is not

:31:51.:31:54.

going to be it for the next ten years -- Blairites. He said you have

:31:55.:32:01.

got to form your own party. He did look a bit excitable when I saw a

:32:02.:32:08.

piece by him on the internet, but the centre of gravity, it has

:32:09.:32:11.

changed in politics, and what was the centre is no longer the centre.

:32:12.:32:15.

The idea that a country should be run for a few at the expense of the

:32:16.:32:19.

many is one which I think has been largely destroyed in this election

:32:20.:32:23.

campaign. The centre has moved and the party has recognised with the

:32:24.:32:27.

new centre is and we now need to unite and begin to roll out the

:32:28.:32:31.

changes. There are many which need to be done on Jeremy's agenda. I say

:32:32.:32:36.

this to the party committee of Jeremy and the leadership the tools

:32:37.:32:40.

and he will finish the job -- the party, give Jeremy and the

:32:41.:32:50.

leadership the tours. If they want a more centre-left party, they are not

:32:51.:32:53.

going to get it? They should follow Paul Mason's advice? If they want

:32:54.:32:59.

that. We have heard many of them repenting on their sins in the last

:33:00.:33:02.

couple of days. That is another matter! LAUGHTER

:33:03.:33:09.

They have recognised there are new ways of campaigning we have got to

:33:10.:33:13.

listen to young people and see how they organise, but also our politics

:33:14.:33:16.

has changed as a party and it has resonated with the country. Gerard

:33:17.:33:20.

Coyne spoke about working class voters. I began writing about the

:33:21.:33:26.

problem with working class voters in 2005 at the height of the Tony Blair

:33:27.:33:30.

years and the party has more work to do in those communities and across

:33:31.:33:34.

the country to win the trust of everybody's so that we can serve

:33:35.:33:39.

them in government. Working-class voters swung to the Tories in the

:33:40.:33:42.

last election, middle-class voters went your way. There has been a

:33:43.:33:48.

problem with manual workers for some time, I don't need to be told about

:33:49.:33:51.

that, I'd been writing about it for ten years. I was a building worker

:33:52.:33:57.

for a while and we have got more work to do to regain the trust of

:33:58.:34:01.

these people, but some of the proposals will work for those people

:34:02.:34:03.

and we have got to bring them back in. Do you back the left wing move

:34:04.:34:09.

to lower the threshold of MPs needed to stand for the leadership? We will

:34:10.:34:15.

see where we get to, I'm in favour of democratising the Labour Party.

:34:16.:34:19.

Are you in favour or not? We will see where we get to. It has been a

:34:20.:34:25.

long-running debate. Do you think the threshold for anyone who wants

:34:26.:34:28.

to run for leadership should be cut to 5% of MPs? I'm not going to

:34:29.:34:35.

express my view at the moment, but when there is a leadership election

:34:36.:34:38.

it is important that every tendency within the party is represented on

:34:39.:34:42.

the ballot paper. And the rule that prevents a section of the right or

:34:43.:34:47.

the left or the centre from being on the ballot paper is a bad rule. That

:34:48.:34:52.

is an argument for lowering the threshold. We have got to look

:34:53.:34:56.

carefully at how we conduct leadership elections and that debate

:34:57.:35:00.

will be had. That far left figure we had in that film there, he said the

:35:01.:35:07.

Corbyn way of doing things is a successful way, and that is

:35:08.:35:14.

suggesting that you join the Corbyn bandwagon, you don't try to change

:35:15.:35:17.

it, that's the way forward the Labour Party? All parties have

:35:18.:35:22.

different points of view, and so is the Labour Party. You test ideas in

:35:23.:35:27.

action and what happened in the general election showed the idea

:35:28.:35:31.

that Jeremy has had and are successful, we have more than

:35:32.:35:35.

doubled our size. Over 600,000 members. You lost the third election

:35:36.:35:41.

in a row. We got the highest share of the vote, the largest number of

:35:42.:35:47.

votes. No, you didn't. The Tories did. I haven't finished my sentence.

:35:48.:35:55.

Labour has received since 1997. You lost. Of course, and that is why I

:35:56.:36:02.

have said you we have got to work harder to build confidence in people

:36:03.:36:06.

especially working people in our politics and the way we are going.

:36:07.:36:11.

Can I clarify the Labour position on Brexit? Jeremy Corbyn and John

:36:12.:36:17.

McDonnell has said the Labour position is to leave membership of

:36:18.:36:20.

the single market, so why have over 50 Labour politicians signed a

:36:21.:36:24.

letter to the Guardian in favour of membership of the single market?

:36:25.:36:29.

That is not exactly where we are. We are taking the view that we need to

:36:30.:36:34.

have access to all of the tariff rearrangements which exist within

:36:35.:36:38.

the customs union and the single market. What is the policy on

:36:39.:36:43.

membership? Let me finish. It is important to answer the question. I

:36:44.:36:49.

will give you a full answer, and the answer is, we are not wedded to any

:36:50.:36:54.

particular institutional framework, we are pragmatic about it. We will

:36:55.:37:01.

see how the negotiations go. We do not have to do one thing or another

:37:02.:37:05.

in terms of institutional relationships but we need a Brexit

:37:06.:37:08.

which works for jobs and growth and also for the protections which

:37:09.:37:12.

working people have also how that comes remains to be seen. I was

:37:13.:37:19.

asking for clarification. Is the Labour policy to remain members of

:37:20.:37:24.

the single market or not? Alp policy is to secure all of the rights which

:37:25.:37:31.

exist, tariff free access, within the single market and the customs

:37:32.:37:35.

union, and we are not saying that a particular institutional form is

:37:36.:37:39.

something we've always ourselves to at this stage. Are you for or

:37:40.:37:45.

against remaining members of the single market? It is not a question

:37:46.:37:50.

of four it is about securing the best possible arrangement for our

:37:51.:37:57.

economy and working people -- it is not a question of for or against.

:37:58.:38:04.

The labour MP Clive Lewis said Thatcher economic dogma was to blame

:38:05.:38:10.

for Grenfell Tower, but we know many tower blocks have been clad in the

:38:11.:38:16.

same material by Labour councils, was that also the fault of

:38:17.:38:21.

Thatcherite economic dogma? It is very difficult to say exactly what

:38:22.:38:25.

happened, and I worked in the building industry for many years and

:38:26.:38:28.

I know the regulations were very tight. It now looks as though

:38:29.:38:32.

something happened with the building regulations. And apart from that, we

:38:33.:38:39.

can't say exactly what lies behind this. By Tory and Labour councils,

:38:40.:38:45.

that is my point, both parties have questions to answer. Yes, but the

:38:46.:38:55.

government have sat on the recommendations, like the

:38:56.:38:56.

recommendation of this printer systems, they have sat on those

:38:57.:39:00.

documents for years. -- sprinkler systems. Do you think all parties

:39:01.:39:08.

should stop trying to make political capital out of what is effectively a

:39:09.:39:14.

national disaster? And tried to get to the bottom of a system explained

:39:15.:39:18.

the and try to do better regardless of the party? Yes, everyone should

:39:19.:39:23.

do the same. The sooner we get the results of the inquiry the better,

:39:24.:39:26.

but if there are decisions which can be made sooner than the public

:39:27.:39:29.

inquiry they should be made and implemented. Jon Trickett, thanks

:39:30.:39:32.

for joining us. Good morning, and welcome

:39:33.:39:44.

to Sunday Politics Scotland. The SNP's Westminster leader,

:39:45.:39:46.

Ian Blackford, says Scotland So, how exactly does he propose

:39:47.:39:51.

to help secure a place Michael Gove has called it

:39:52.:39:56.

"a sea of opportunity", but is leaving Europe necessarily

:39:57.:40:01.

good news for all those And in a week where those Brexit

:40:02.:40:04.

talks finally got underway and Thersea May received an early

:40:05.:40:12.

rebuff from Donald Tusk, I'll be getting a Brussels'

:40:13.:40:15.

insider's view on the trials ahead. The SNP don't have their problems

:40:16.:40:22.

to seek after the election. They lost 21 seats and some leading

:40:23.:40:25.

figures in the party have accepted that their call for a second

:40:26.:40:28.

independence referendum didn't do them any favours -

:40:29.:40:32.

they've still to make clear whether they will continue

:40:33.:40:34.

to demand another referendum. But the party sees

:40:35.:40:37.

an opportunity with a minority It's now demanding that the Scottish

:40:38.:40:39.

Government should have a place But how do they plan

:40:40.:40:43.

to achieve that? I'm joined now by the new SNP leader

:40:44.:40:47.

at Westminster, Ian Blackford - he's the man who succeeds

:40:48.:40:51.

Angus Robertson, who lost his Usually not the Scottish Government

:40:52.:41:07.

involved in the direct negotiations, can we clarify that? Do you want

:41:08.:41:11.

negotiations with the joint ministerial committee or are you

:41:12.:41:15.

saying that you want a place at the table in Brussels in the

:41:16.:41:20.

negotiations? Bye what has to happen is that there has to be a meeting of

:41:21.:41:28.

the ministration in Edinburgh and hopefully the administration in

:41:29.:41:30.

Belfast as well. It's important that the government recognises that the

:41:31.:41:35.

devolved into ministration need to be involved. We are asking that the

:41:36.:41:40.

Scottish Government be represented wary are. -- where we are. She

:41:41.:41:50.

Theresa May got a bloody nose, she got defeated in the a minority in

:41:51.:41:57.

the Commons. We accept that the United Kingdom is coming out of the

:41:58.:42:02.

EU, but we wanted treaty to represent the interests of Scotland.

:42:03.:42:07.

I think that there is an indication that people do not want to lose the

:42:08.:42:15.

access to the single market. White on your idea of negotiations, I'm

:42:16.:42:22.

sure you're British government will say yes we will have joint meetings

:42:23.:42:27.

with the ministerial committee. An actual involvement in the talks in

:42:28.:42:33.

Brussels, they may possibly say no, we're not doing that it will all get

:42:34.:42:37.

too confusing. What do you do in that case? What pressure can you

:42:38.:42:42.

exert? I think the government has to recognise its position. It is a

:42:43.:42:49.

minority. But we are trained to do is seek a compromise that goes back

:42:50.:42:51.

to a document published by the Scottish Government in December. We

:42:52.:42:58.

haven't actually had a formal rejection. We need to say to the

:42:59.:43:02.

government, look you got a responsibility to try and bring the

:43:03.:43:07.

devolved nations of the UK together. We respect the position of the UK

:43:08.:43:11.

Government and respect the decision that was taken to come out of the

:43:12.:43:15.

EU, but we are equally tried to make sure that our demand to remain in

:43:16.:43:20.

the single market, for the different problems of defending an Arsenal

:43:21.:43:22.

interest in Scotland and the jobs and living standards is important. I

:43:23.:43:27.

think people in the country want that and the government of the

:43:28.:43:31.

United Kingdom should recognise that. If you did get your idea of

:43:32.:43:35.

Scottish representation in the next round of talks in Brussels, along

:43:36.:43:42.

with the rest of the bridges negotiating team that macro British

:43:43.:43:46.

Darts Organisation team prop Tom presumably you would request in

:43:47.:43:53.

advance. One thing the government would find intolerable is if

:43:54.:43:58.

representatives from Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland who were

:43:59.:44:05.

disagreeing with their negotiators? I think there is a way of fashioning

:44:06.:44:08.

that and that is the position that the government had never taken. We

:44:09.:44:11.

are seeking a compromise with the UK Government in the interest of

:44:12.:44:17.

Scotland and to extent with the people of the United Kingdom as

:44:18.:44:20.

well. We need some humility, it is very clear that that the country

:44:21.:44:31.

want to be represented and that the only thoughts and that they have a

:44:32.:44:36.

say in these territories? One bit of pressure you could apply is to

:44:37.:44:40.

threaten to vote against a legislative consent motion for the

:44:41.:44:44.

Great Repeal Bill. The problem with this that the Supreme Court has

:44:45.:44:50.

already decided that Scotland can stop that Bill and can't stop

:44:51.:44:56.

Brexit, it's not much of a threat? Nobody is threatening anything at

:44:57.:44:59.

the moment. The important thing is that we now know that there is going

:45:00.:45:03.

to be a motion that will have to come from the Scottish Parliament.

:45:04.:45:07.

What we are saying to the government is let's work together and affect a

:45:08.:45:12.

compromise that respect your position and respect ours, as well.

:45:13.:45:16.

It's about trying to behave in a responsible manner, recognise a

:45:17.:45:18.

mandate we have from the people of Scotland and staging the UK

:45:19.:45:23.

Government, would you have to do is do the right thing. Acknowledge the

:45:24.:45:27.

position that you do not have this position for a hard Brexit. The UK

:45:28.:45:30.

Government says it wants to main trade with Europe, so do we, our

:45:31.:45:36.

point is that has to come through access to the single market and the

:45:37.:45:39.

customs union. Many other people, not just on the SNP, but in wider

:45:40.:45:43.

society and people who have been elevated to the last of that the

:45:44.:45:49.

House of Lords have liquidate the Scottish Government must be rest

:45:50.:45:54.

presented. I think that must be respected. In your new role you have

:45:55.:46:00.

said that the SNP group at Westminster would be happy to bring

:46:01.:46:03.

down the Tory government at any time. Are you really? When I have

:46:04.:46:10.

said is that we have a job to do to represent the people of Scotland.

:46:11.:46:14.

Brexit is of course a clear priority. The second thing of course

:46:15.:46:17.

is that there is no authority for posterity. One of the things that we

:46:18.:46:20.

are hearing is that there is likely to be a deal for Northern Ireland

:46:21.:46:24.

and if there is investment in Northern Ireland, which I would

:46:25.:46:29.

welcome, that Scotland's interest is properly defensive. Tee defended.

:46:30.:46:43.

Defended. How happy to bring them occurring in question are -- the

:46:44.:46:53.

Tory government? If the Tories are acting against a piece of Scotland

:46:54.:46:55.

and we would look at that at the time. But let's make sure that we

:46:56.:47:00.

can get effective opposition to government that we can challenge the

:47:01.:47:03.

austerity in general and if we can do the things I think we will have

:47:04.:47:06.

something that the people of Scotland can celebrate with us. Can

:47:07.:47:11.

expose my the SNP did not vote to bring down the last Tory government?

:47:12.:47:17.

Well, we had a ridiculous situation where there was known need for an

:47:18.:47:21.

election at that stage. We pointed that out. It really was about the

:47:22.:47:24.

Conservatives looking out of the own interest and that spectacularly

:47:25.:47:33.

backfired. We are not going to go against the mechanism that the

:47:34.:47:37.

Tories put in place. Even though we've lost seats, I'm delighted that

:47:38.:47:42.

we are still the largest party in Scotland, the Conservatives in the

:47:43.:47:45.

Westminster love to be in the position that we are... I'm sure

:47:46.:47:50.

they would, but the point is, when even the Tories voted to bring down

:47:51.:47:54.

the Tory government, the SNP didn't you have stained? -- abstinent. The

:47:55.:48:04.

Tories about than ever in their own interest. Many Labour MPs didn't. At

:48:05.:48:11.

the end of the day it was the Tories try to seek a narrow party advantage

:48:12.:48:13.

for themselves but it didn't work. It was a foolish thing to do and a

:48:14.:48:21.

game played at Westminster. The second independence referendum,

:48:22.:48:25.

people have said that that has played a role in the reduction of

:48:26.:48:30.

seats that you mentioned. What do think the SNP should do about that

:48:31.:48:35.

now? Nicola has made it very close that she is going to... She is

:48:36.:48:42.

consulting within the party now. I've been engaged in discussions

:48:43.:48:44.

with nickel and others and we will wait and see and other First

:48:45.:48:49.

Minister Israel to give a judgment. -- is rated a dozen. What is

:48:50.:48:54.

important is that we are going into negotiations. When you saying is it

:48:55.:49:02.

every other member of the European Union and Scotland should be able to

:49:03.:49:06.

have their say of the final exit the bracket. So you think that the SNP

:49:07.:49:15.

should still say... Use of the SNP should still say that this would be

:49:16.:49:19.

a second referendum customer once Nicola has reflected on the election

:49:20.:49:22.

results, of course we will come forward with our proposals and

:49:23.:49:25.

proposition on how we will move forward, both on the syllabus at --

:49:26.:49:32.

on Brexit and posterity. -- austerity. It does seem rather

:49:33.:49:38.

peculiar and ensure some of your critics with a ludicrous that as the

:49:39.:49:44.

leader of the Scottish National Party, at Westminster, that you can

:49:45.:49:49.

answer simple questions on of all issues the process of getting

:49:50.:49:53.

independence for Scotland? What I'm doing is concentrating on the job

:49:54.:49:56.

that I have along with my colleagues in Westminster which is can the

:49:57.:50:04.

upper Scotland -- standing up for Scotland. It's making sure that we

:50:05.:50:08.

get the offer Scotland on Brexit, challenging honours 30 -- on

:50:09.:50:16.

austerity. But I have said we will make a judgment based on what has

:50:17.:50:18.

happened in the election campaign and we have a strong message that we

:50:19.:50:22.

can take forward for the people of Scotland. The SNP is the party of

:50:23.:50:25.

Scottish independent, more than ever. But we must do more than ever

:50:26.:50:31.

is protecting Scottish interest in Brexit and make sure that there is

:50:32.:50:37.

an alternative to austerity. So, the policy from audio just said is to

:50:38.:50:40.

leave the idea of an independent referee and on the table... Hang on,

:50:41.:50:46.

you said earlier on... That they should never... I'm focusing on the

:50:47.:50:57.

short-term opportunities... So the policy is not to talk about it? What

:50:58.:51:01.

they said is that Nicola will reflect that and in due course that

:51:02.:51:06.

she will come out and say what the position of the SNP government is.

:51:07.:51:09.

We will have to leave it there, Ian Blackford, thank you very much.

:51:10.:51:13.

This week's Queen's Speech was pretty short by anybody's standards.

:51:14.:51:15.

Lacking a majority, with much of her election

:51:16.:51:17.

manifesto shredded and, at this point, without even a deal

:51:18.:51:19.

with the DUP to support her, Prime Minister Theresa May has

:51:20.:51:23.

decided that her two-year parliamentary programme should

:51:24.:51:27.

One of those bills that was announced concerned fishing -

:51:28.:51:32.

it will aim to set out a new way of regulating the industry.

:51:33.:51:35.

That may prove a slippery task, because not everybody

:51:36.:51:37.

In Peterhead on Friday, the UK's new Environment Secretary Michael Gove

:51:38.:51:55.

was treading carefully. He discussed the future of fishing post Brexit.

:51:56.:51:58.

As the country charts a new course, that is one bit of EU legislation

:51:59.:52:07.

the keen Brexiteer is happy to throw overboard. The Common fisheries

:52:08.:52:09.

policy has been an environmental and economic disaster, devastating for

:52:10.:52:11.

the industry, especially here. It also meant we have not been able to

:52:12.:52:18.

manage fish stocks to ensure the renewable resource is replenished

:52:19.:52:21.

for the future. Many in the industry agree with him on the common

:52:22.:52:26.

fisheries policy, but not all. The EU provides access to a huge market,

:52:27.:52:34.

particularly for creel fishermen on Scotland's West Coast. This is a

:52:35.:52:40.

very high premium shellfish. Some of them are concerned the valuable

:52:41.:52:47.

trade might start to dry up. This week's Queen's Speech included a new

:52:48.:52:50.

fisheries Bill, but there is precious little detail about how

:52:51.:52:52.

that will support fishing communities. They will want the

:52:53.:52:57.

backbone of the country, but have faced declining. -- they were once

:52:58.:53:07.

the backbone. Glasgow's Briggate, used to be big Fish market.

:53:08.:53:20.

Scotland's fishing industry is still going strong, though much reduced.

:53:21.:53:23.

Its leaders say that they want a place at the top table when Brexit

:53:24.:53:33.

The Fisherman Association represent 60% of the fishermen on the

:53:34.:53:58.

coast,... It is generally happy to say farewell to the EU, but wants

:53:59.:54:01.

its members to be at the heart of any new policies. People were making

:54:02.:54:04.

decisions in Brussels that could affect small communities, but they

:54:05.:54:06.

probably didn't realise how much it was affecting these small

:54:07.:54:08.

communities, and I think now we have a chance to change that, at that in

:54:09.:54:10.

the future both Westminster Government is a Scottish

:54:11.:54:12.

governments, regardless of who is in charge, will involve fishermen in

:54:13.:54:14.

going forward. The industry's members may sometimes want different

:54:15.:54:16.

things. Any new policies have to recognise that. Then, of course, it

:54:17.:54:19.

is not just about profit. There is also the environment. Fishing is a

:54:20.:54:24.

very complex business, and you have the inshore fishermen governed by

:54:25.:54:28.

rules set within the United Kingdom prematurely, and bigger offshore

:54:29.:54:31.

vessels primarily working within rules of the common fisheries

:54:32.:54:35.

policy. Of course there will be differences between those groups.

:54:36.:54:41.

What is really take bid key is that whatever the outcome of the

:54:42.:54:47.

negotiations, the fishing industry has the highest credentials. Fish

:54:48.:54:57.

stocks, jobs and export markets. As the sun sets, government and

:54:58.:54:58.

industry have a long journey ahead. Well, to discuss some of those

:54:59.:55:04.

issues in more detail are Bertie Armstrong,

:55:05.:55:05.

the chief executive of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation,

:55:06.:55:07.

and Chris Williams, project leader in fisheries and marine environment

:55:08.:55:09.

at the New Economics Foundation. Bertie Armstrong, can I ask you

:55:10.:55:18.

about how you think fisheries should operate? There has been a lot of

:55:19.:55:21.

political rhetoric about some people saying that all controllable

:55:22.:55:27.

fisheries should come to Scotland after Brexit, and others saying that

:55:28.:55:30.

bits of it should be with London and bits should be with Edinburgh. From

:55:31.:55:35.

a fishing point of view, would you want everything default, or are

:55:36.:55:38.

there aspects of the fishing industry that would be better run

:55:39.:55:43.

from the UK? The whole question is much more simple than that. The sea

:55:44.:55:47.

of opportunity represented by this needs to have five seconds of

:55:48.:55:54.

information. When we joined the Common fisheries industry, everyone

:55:55.:56:00.

did as much as the good, and that was due to common access to water

:56:01.:56:04.

is. When it became a downward spiral of overfishing and had to be limits,

:56:05.:56:08.

the opportunity was sheer dot proportionally with what your track

:56:09.:56:13.

record was when you've finished everywhere as hard as you like. So,

:56:14.:56:23.

60% of our fish leave with non-UK fishing nations, which needs fixing.

:56:24.:56:28.

That is the sea of opportunity. And the return of control and

:56:29.:56:37.

sovereignty, which will happen automatically, will be the advantage

:56:38.:56:39.

that comes to the entire fishing industry. I get that, what I am

:56:40.:56:46.

asking you is whether what you have just described would best be done

:56:47.:56:49.

entirely, I do not think anyone doubts that some control over

:56:50.:56:53.

fisheries will come to Edinburgh, but is it a good thing if all of it

:56:54.:56:59.

does? Or are there aspects that would be better if there were rules

:57:00.:57:02.

for fishing boats that were the same across the UK. There are two macro

:57:03.:57:07.

levels of government, one of them as day to day management which is

:57:08.:57:12.

devolved already and will stay default. The big bit is the

:57:13.:57:17.

international negotiations for fishing opportunity. We're talking

:57:18.:57:21.

about 1 million of mackerel, half a million tonnes of herring and so on.

:57:22.:57:27.

A really big or producing industry. Those negotiations on the

:57:28.:57:28.

international stage, and of scores international stage, and of scores

:57:29.:57:34.

-- of course Scotland's interest must be protected. When we're

:57:35.:57:40.

talking about mackerel or blue whiting, on the international stage,

:57:41.:57:42.

you would expect Scotland to lead and have a veto. If you're talking

:57:43.:57:51.

about channel cod or place in Seoul, it would be ridiculous for the

:57:52.:57:57.

Scottish voice to be in charge. -- plaice and sole. There are already

:57:58.:58:03.

established things in place. But we need to make sure the right voices

:58:04.:58:07.

at the table speaking for the right thing. We will not tolerate a

:58:08.:58:14.

constitutional arm wrestle, when one is not required. It is obvious how

:58:15.:58:16.

this should be organised, with the majority voice speaking on behalf of

:58:17.:58:24.

that Scott, and the minority voice speaking on behalf of the other. Are

:58:25.:58:29.

you concerned there may be a free for all? For all the criticism of

:58:30.:58:34.

the common fisheries policy but cod stocks have recovered dramatically.

:58:35.:58:39.

Is the danger that once Brexit happens, whatever the international

:58:40.:58:42.

agreements are, that there will be some sort of free for all? Yes,

:58:43.:58:47.

there are a few different things to say. The first is that over the last

:58:48.:58:52.

decade, as you rightly identified, lots of the Northern stocks are

:58:53.:58:56.

improving and I over the last ten years, the UK large-scale fleet is

:58:57.:59:02.

the most profitable in Europe, running at 15% years ago, by 2014

:59:03.:59:08.

they reach 35%. It is astounding and a success story in large part

:59:09.:59:14.

because of our shared management within the common fisheries policy.

:59:15.:59:17.

There is also a risk of overfishing when individual countries that do

:59:18.:59:24.

not have a shared management planning sure there are quarters.

:59:25.:59:27.

The final point is one that relate to the earlier point about

:59:28.:59:31.

differences in the industry. He's very correct in identifying the

:59:32.:59:36.

large pelagic stocks of the North of Scotland that represents a big sea

:59:37.:59:41.

of opportunity for his members but he also correctly identifies that in

:59:42.:59:46.

the English Channel there is a sea of risk for small-scale fishermen

:59:47.:59:50.

not own the rights. They represent three quarters of the fishing fleet,

:59:51.:59:57.

but they are scrapping it out for 1.5% of the quota. So they are

:59:58.:00:00.

concerned that fair distribution of quarter has devolved. Those same

:00:01.:00:06.

small-scale fishermen are very highly dependent on exports, as your

:00:07.:00:12.

piece identified, especially shellfish, to France, Italy and

:00:13.:00:15.

Spain, and they are concerned about the impact of tariffs and other

:00:16.:00:21.

things. Bertie Armstrong, what is venting your members doing what they

:00:22.:00:23.

have done in the past after breakfast and fishing out of the

:00:24.:00:30.

sea? That is dismissive, -- in the past after Brexit. That is

:00:31.:00:34.

dismissive and insulting. The Scottish fishing fleet has never

:00:35.:00:38.

been smaller, and the reduction in stocks is to do with sacrifices

:00:39.:00:42.

among the fleet. It has happened in spite of the common fishing policy.

:00:43.:00:51.

There is self-interest in that. Why on earth would we wish to destroy

:00:52.:00:56.

the means of only if lewd? The simple answer is it has happened

:00:57.:01:02.

before. The Canadians wiped out their own cod stock. Yes, but look

:01:03.:01:05.

at the record of the Scottish fishing industry over the last

:01:06.:01:11.

decade. You will see an entirely different position. It is not one

:01:12.:01:18.

hacking through lessons of history, it is solid evidence of what

:01:19.:01:21.

happened over the last decade and a half. So, the distribution of stocks

:01:22.:01:28.

between -- catching opportunity between sectors is a source of

:01:29.:01:36.

debate, which will continue. The important point to note is the will

:01:37.:01:42.

be more opportunity for distribution. Chris Williams,

:01:43.:01:46.

briefly, I think he has conceded there will be international

:01:47.:01:49.

negotiations, which will largely be with the EU because of its EU boats

:01:50.:01:55.

that want quotas in these waters. How will that work? Something like

:01:56.:02:03.

80% of Danish fish are caught in UK waters. They will lose their jobs if

:02:04.:02:07.

we didn't negotiate some deal with them? It is fair to say that there

:02:08.:02:16.

are lots of European countries that fish our waters, they are landing

:02:17.:02:21.

four times UK vessels within Audi exclusive economic zone. But if we

:02:22.:02:27.

were to man that additional 650,000 tonnes of ourselves, do we have the

:02:28.:02:32.

capacity to catch it and process it and market it? Those are questions

:02:33.:02:35.

Bertie will probably have the answer to. Briefly, Bertie. Yes, we have

:02:36.:02:43.

the capacity to catch. The law will change, and with the greatest regret

:02:44.:02:47.

and sympathy for Danish colleagues, what will happen to them will happen

:02:48.:02:51.

to us -- will be what happened two hours after excellent. The

:02:52.:02:55.

sovereignty of the resource changes so they are losers and winners. That

:02:56.:03:01.

is the consequence. The winners will sustainably be us, in the United

:03:02.:03:06.

Kingdom. Having said that... Sorry, we have to leave it there.

:03:07.:03:10.

Well, it's been quite a week in Europe.

:03:11.:03:11.

The long-awaited Brexit talks finally got underway,

:03:12.:03:13.

but there was a lukewarm response to Theresa May's summit proposal

:03:14.:03:16.

I'm joined by Brussels' watcher Ryan Heath for his take

:03:17.:03:20.

on events so far and a look at what lies ahead.

:03:21.:03:26.

What do you think, we know the reaction in Europe has been pretty

:03:27.:03:35.

half-hearted to the individual -- the initial proposals on

:03:36.:03:40.

citizenships. More broadly, what approach are they taking at the

:03:41.:03:45.

moment. The key strength beer has is it as being very united, which is

:03:46.:03:50.

something that is in short supply on the British side of the

:03:51.:03:53.

negotiations. Soak in Brussels people were annoyed at the way she

:03:54.:04:05.

offered the citizenship discussions. They did not expect her to come

:04:06.:04:09.

through the side door whether it. But they have united position, and

:04:10.:04:14.

the UK seems to be more defining its ability to be strong, to host seeks

:04:15.:04:21.

it it can be or its position can be, rather than havoc mobilises the

:04:22.:04:25.

country behind it. So people here in Brussels are comfortable at the

:04:26.:04:27.

moment, but frustrated at the way the UK Government is handling the

:04:28.:04:29.

situation. The British government keeps saying, David Davis has been

:04:30.:04:34.

on television this morning, saying people in Europe, they want to do a

:04:35.:04:39.

free trade deal, they want to do a tariff free deal with us, they want

:04:40.:04:45.

to let us have access to Europe, and for them to have access to the UK

:04:46.:04:51.

with the minimum of hassle. Are those the vibes in Brussels, that

:04:52.:04:53.

everyone cannot wait to accommodate the United Kingdom? It is not quite

:04:54.:04:57.

that they cannot wait to accommodate the UK, but they realise that the

:04:58.:05:02.

economic interest is interest in doing the deal. The UK is

:05:03.:05:07.

fundamentally correct that assessment, but EU is also to take a

:05:08.:05:11.

hit if it means preserving the single market and it means sending a

:05:12.:05:15.

lesson to others who might want to leave. The UK could be the victim of

:05:16.:05:20.

the EU willing to stick to its guns. But hopefully they are willing to

:05:21.:05:23.

compromise and both sides are willing to simply put common sense

:05:24.:05:26.

positions at the table, rather than a wind loss situation. Unless all

:05:27.:05:38.

the discussions that year about trading goods, but Britain is

:05:39.:05:43.

largely a trait -- a service industry. If there are parallel

:05:44.:05:51.

willingness to negotiate free access for British services along with

:05:52.:05:58.

goods? That an excellent point and, yes there is the great dirty secret

:05:59.:06:03.

of the EU is that it treats the single market as it sacred cow. The

:06:04.:06:13.

EU defines itself as being. It doesn't really exist much for the

:06:14.:06:19.

services sector, so the single market is a bit of a myth. It has to

:06:20.:06:25.

do it via service trade deals because it doesn't exist

:06:26.:06:29.

independently of the trade deal. So there is a strong interest to keep

:06:30.:06:33.

on a centrist track and they would just like to have a stable

:06:34.:06:35.

government to negotiate with and they want to know that the UK is

:06:36.:06:39.

going to be there in six months or problems time. That is where if the

:06:40.:06:43.

UK can provide an front there can be a deal. Ryan Heath, thank you very

:06:44.:06:51.

much. I have to just bring some sadness that it's just been

:06:52.:06:57.

announced that Gordon Wilson, the former SNP leader, has died. He

:06:58.:07:03.

passed away earlier in hospital. He was leader of the next SNP from 1979

:07:04.:07:12.

to 1990. And as a regular guest on this programme. Time now for a look

:07:13.:07:17.

at the week ahead. With me now are author

:07:18.:07:23.

and journalist Katie Grant, who's alongside Sunday Times columnist

:07:24.:07:30.

and former SNP strategic communications director,

:07:31.:07:32.

Kevin Pringle. wrote Kevin that is sad news about

:07:33.:07:38.

good and Wilson, who will be less. Very sad indeed, my condolences to

:07:39.:07:42.

his family. I first worked with the SNP way back in 1989 and Gordon was

:07:43.:07:47.

the leader. He held that seat of Dundee East on the way through the

:07:48.:07:53.

1980s and very well many ways and untypical seat, and urban seat. He

:07:54.:07:58.

kept the party going through difficult times and three better

:07:59.:08:06.

times that lay ahead. Scottish life is a huge amount of Gordon -- to

:08:07.:08:13.

Gordon so today huge condolences to his family. , I imagine you didn't

:08:14.:08:19.

agree with much he said, Katie, but nonetheless he was always great fun

:08:20.:08:23.

and he was never shy of sticking a bard into the consensus when he

:08:24.:08:31.

fancied it? No, that will certainly be missed, so I do think that

:08:32.:08:34.

Scotland has lost somebody whose name will remain in the history

:08:35.:08:40.

books. We've lost, yak, I'm sorry about that. It seems we don't have

:08:41.:08:45.

many people who can do those sort of barbed things and make a point and

:08:46.:08:53.

get away with it. He was held in regard, right across parties, wasn't

:08:54.:08:59.

he? Some of his views, on things like same-sex marriage, were perhaps

:09:00.:09:03.

not in tune with the consensus in Scottish Parliament, but,

:09:04.:09:08.

nonetheless, he was regarded as not just good fun but as a serious

:09:09.:09:12.

thinker. And he was a serious thinker, wasn't he? He was, he was

:09:13.:09:17.

sometimes criticised for being a bit too moderate, but I always notice

:09:18.:09:21.

that within the party that he was always prepared to take a punt on a

:09:22.:09:24.

radical position if he thought it was justified and woodwork. The best

:09:25.:09:35.

example... It was a good tradition. As we got to hear, Kevin, Nicola

:09:36.:09:41.

Sturgeon is supposedly thinking long and hard. It used to be your job to

:09:42.:09:45.

do that, what would your advice be? What she should do about the second

:09:46.:09:52.

independence referendum? She does when thinking in that is right. I

:09:53.:09:57.

think that retaining a choice of independence is the right position.

:09:58.:10:01.

I think we're looking at the time scale at the moment. I think

:10:02.:10:05.

Scotland is in a better position than most of the rest of the UK...

:10:06.:10:10.

The timetable is crucial, if Nicola was to say, look were not going to

:10:11.:10:17.

go until the mid-20 20s. We'll stand in the next election and put it to

:10:18.:10:22.

discuss people then that's one thing, but to suggest that they

:10:23.:10:29.

might have a referendum before the next Scottish election before 2021,

:10:30.:10:33.

that leaves and open to the accusation that they are just

:10:34.:10:37.

obsessed with the independence. It leaves open the issue of choice.

:10:38.:10:46.

Scotland had voted substantially to retain, as Northern Ireland, these

:10:47.:10:51.

two project the UK have a democratic choice... 60% voted for parties who

:10:52.:10:59.

had Britain at the top of their manifest didn't they? Eye you can

:11:00.:11:06.

look at the fact that the SNP you deliver the fact that the SNP and

:11:07.:11:09.

the majority of seats in the Scottish Parliament last year, but I

:11:10.:11:13.

think Nicholas stood to put the issue in the context of choice --

:11:14.:11:18.

Nicola Sturgeon will want to put it in the context of choice. The

:11:19.:11:25.

locations are Brexit, when they come clear at the end of the

:11:26.:11:29.

negotiations, or potentially through to the actual exit itself, as we

:11:30.:11:33.

speak that timescale is very unclear. These things will only

:11:34.:11:36.

become clear as the negotiations go on. And in the UK wide programme I

:11:37.:11:43.

heard them talking about the trade act that are not really giving any

:11:44.:11:51.

exits antlers on that Young antlers on that. Is any sustainable pension,

:11:52.:11:58.

because of course Rick Davis is going to say aha? I would say that

:11:59.:12:03.

that is just like Ian Blackford trying to enter the question. Once

:12:04.:12:08.

the locations are Brexit become clear, which will probably become

:12:09.:12:13.

clear in the short term, job losses in the UK. The prospect of an

:12:14.:12:19.

independent Scotland departing from the UK is B even less attractive.

:12:20.:12:25.

Hang on, I know you against independence but you can't expect

:12:26.:12:28.

Kevin to be against independence. The question is whether it is now

:12:29.:12:34.

necessary for the Scottish Government to take that threat, or

:12:35.:12:39.

opportunity as they would say, off the table in order to start

:12:40.:12:45.

haemorrhaging votes. Because, you won the election, a 21 seat last,

:12:46.:12:50.

and as John Swinney has accepted, the referenda in business was part

:12:51.:12:56.

of that. Do they need to stop the haemorrhaging? Well, I suppose it

:12:57.:13:00.

comes along on many different levels. In order to stop the

:13:01.:13:03.

haemorrhaging of votes, it's not just about Brexit, it's about the

:13:04.:13:10.

domestic record. They do need to concentrate on the day job. I'm just

:13:11.:13:14.

saying that as a general thing, if you want to stop haemorrhaging

:13:15.:13:18.

votes, you need to stop really concentrating an independence

:13:19.:13:20.

referendum them and DJ job. Anyway referendum them and DJ job. Anyway

:13:21.:13:28.

-- D-Day job, they got themselves into a position where they have to

:13:29.:13:31.

talk about the referendum when they that Italy is profitable thing. Were

:13:32.:13:38.

easy to an MP was hanging on by tender hundreds and some of them

:13:39.:13:43.

are, what you say to them? I think we have to say that after Brexit

:13:44.:13:51.

it's increasingly attracted to have that choice. It's fundamentally

:13:52.:13:54.

about the choice of the people to decide the future and I think that

:13:55.:14:01.

is a popular position. That's the same position that they had before

:14:02.:14:06.

the election? I think they will find that the timescale is different and

:14:07.:14:09.

it is an attractive proposition of itself. Sadly that all the time we

:14:10.:14:12.

have for this week. I'll be back next week, until then, goodbye? .

:14:13.:14:19.

MUSIC: Spring from The Four Seasons by Vivaldi

:14:20.:14:21.

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with political news, interviews and debate. Andrew talks to former Unite leadership contender Gerard Coyne, discusses international trade after Brexit with trade minister Lord Price, and looks at the future direction of the Labour Party with shadow minister for the Cabinet Office Jon Trickett. The political panel consists of Helen Lewis of the New Statesman, journalist Isabel Oakeshott and Tim Shipman of The Times.


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