The latest political news, interviews and debate in Scotland.
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Good morning, everyone,
and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
I'm Sarah Smith.
And this is your guide to everything
that's happening in the world
of politics this Sunday morning.
On today's show:
Theresa May's right-hand man
Damian Green has denied claims that
police found pornography
on a computer in his office in 2008.
He says the allegations by a former
police chief are "political smears."
With claims of sexual harassment
at Westminster growing by the day,
can either Theresa May
or Jeremy Corbyn do anything to get
to grips with a scandal
threatening to engulf
the entire political class?
We'll ask a minister and senior
member of the Shadow Cabinet.
And some on the left of politics
have been gathering to mark 100
years since the Russian Revolution,
but was it an event that should be
And on Sunday Politics Scotland,
more sexual harassment claims come
to light as a Labour MSP says
she was sexually assaulted
and a Government minister
is forced to resign.
So there's plenty of
explosive political news
to get you in the mood
for bonfire night -
and with me as usual,
three journalists who know quite
a bit about parliamentary plots -
if rather less about
gunpowder and treason.
It's Tom Newton Dunn,
Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.
So what are the big political
stories making the news this Sunday?
Well, the papers are brimming
with further allegations against MPs
in the sexual harassment scandal,
which according to one newspaper has
left Westminster frozen in fear.
First Secretary of State Damian
Green, already under
investigation over allegations -
which he strongly denies -
of propositioning a female activist,
is the subject of new claims that
police discovered pornography
on a computer in his Westminster
office in 2008.
Mr Green denies the allegation,
made by former senior
police officer Bob Quick,
saying it is "completely untrue,"
and adding that he is the victim
of disreputable "political smears."
Michael Fallon, who resigned
as Defence Secretary this week
over his past behaviour,
is also subject to fresh claims
he lunged at a female journalist
in 2003 after a lunch.
Labour is facing questions
over its handling of sexual
This morning Shadow Cabinet minister
Dawn Butler refused to be drawn
on whether Jeremy Corbyn knew
about alleged misconduct by MP
Kelvin Hopkins when he was promoted
to the Shadow Cabinet.
And there is a reminder that normal
political life goes on,
with reports that the Cabinet has
agreed to put housing at the heart
of Philip Hammond's upcoming Budget.
Well, let's hear from
Home Secretary Amber Rudd now -
she was on the Andrew Marr Show
earlier talking about the claims
against her Cabinet colleague Damian
Absolutely not. I think it is
something that will take place in
terms of clearing out Westminster of
that sort of behaviour, and I think
that Westminster afterwards,
including the Government, will be
better for it. When we are confident
that men and women can work any
respectful environment and people on
the receiving end of abuse of power
can come forward. That will be a
Let's see what our panel make of
this fairly explosive week. Good
morning to all of you. Starting with
you, Steve. Not a party political
issue but the Tories are in
Government. How much harder for them
is it an Labour?
Always harder when
you are in Government because it
makes governing almost impossible.
And the wider context is a Prime
Minister who lost her overall
majority a few months ago and
actually that is the context of
everything. When you are having to
deal with the scandal of such
unpredictability, where the
terms are so imprecise, it is a
"lunge", a resignation issue, to use
that term, and nightmare. I don't
think it is fatal. Scandals rarely
bring down governments, but it makes
governing for Theresa May a form of
Damian Green has denied all
allegations made against him, but
there are more this morning. He is
being investigated by the Cabinet
Office at the moment. If Theresa May
were to effectively lose her Deputy
Prime Minister, has serious without
I think very serious indeed. I
think it is very significant and
strange he was not defended in the
Home Secretary Amber Rudd in that
clip we saw today, she didn't say I
am certain he will survive, and I am
beginning to feel that Damian may
not survive this. We don't know
whether it is the last of the
allegations that may come out in
relation to him. It seems to me that
the allegations were previously of a
rather minor order, but this seems
to have escalated. And I think one
of the big problems for Theresa May,
and there are the many at the
moment, for months we have been
saying that this Government has no
bandwidth to do anything except
Brexit and right now she can't even
do Brexit. What is the point of it
It is important to make clear
not only that Damian Green denies
all of these allegations, but the
computer mentioned was in a shared
office so there is no reason it
would definitely be his
# No guarantee it would definitely
be his. But we have had two MPs on
television this morning, Anna
Soubry, saying he should stand down.
There is an awful lot going on here.
It is not just a pretty awful sexual
harassment scandal. There are also
without a doubt MPs, police
officers, going about settling
scores. For me I have to say for our
pretty discredited police officer
Bob Quick, to make accusations
against serving Cabinet minister, to
suggest he should go for extreme
pornography on computers he may or
may not have known, it may be
extremely distasteful but it is
alarming for democracy to have
ex-police officers like this coming
in and trying to play with
democracy. Some politicians are also
meeting claims, some for the right
reasons to get the allegations out
there and so on but others for their
own agendas and all of this puts the
Prime Minister in an unbelievably
hard situation. I agree with Steve
and Isabel, she desperately needs
two show leadership in all this, but
every way she could turn there are
incredible downfalls, people blaming
her for trying to get to the bottom
of all this. It is very people who
she is relying on for her
leadership, the very Tory MPs the
support she can't lose.
It is not
just the Tory party and of course
Jeremy Corbyn will be making a
speech later today where this will
inevitably and there are accusations
about how the senior leadership in
the Labour Party have handled this.
What about that situation?
the Government is much harder
because you are meant to be doing
10,000 other things at the same
time. This is about a deregulated
work environment. For all those who
say, I hate the way Britain is too
regulated, this is what happens in a
deregulated work environment. The
House of Commons has no HR or
whatever, MPs, advisors, so, MPs
actually don't have much power but
they do have power over who the
point and how to treat them. I think
this is the way forward in terms of
the practical outcome, but it is
across the political spectrum.
it is unclear what it will be. Can
the party sort this out?
sure I entirely agree, Steve, you
cannot regulate all human
interaction and a lot of these
stories have been about interactions
between politicians and journalists
alike, who have gone out for lunch,
chosen to drink, presumably to
create an informal atmosphere, and
at what point is a step towards
somebody to say goodbye, a peck on
the cheek or whatever, a lunge? You
can't regulate that sort of thing.
Throughout the programme will come
back to some of these things and how
they might be regulated.
Now, the Home Secretary has
also today been talking
about what she calls the "moral
duty" of social media companies
to stop child sexual exploitation,
ahead of a meeting with her US
counterparts this week.
We're joined now by the Home Office
minister Sarah Newton -
she's in our Truro studio.
Thanks very much for coming in to
speak the first night. I want to
talk to you about the Government's
efforts to tackle child pornography,
but let's pick up on some of the
sexual harassment issues at
Westminster first. Two of your
parliamentary colleagues this
morning saying they think the first
Secretary of State Damian Green
should step down whilst being
investigated. Do you agree?
has vigorously denied these
accusations, and the Cabinet Office
is investigating these accusations,
so we do have processes for when
ministers have these accusations
made against them so they are
properly investigated. And that is
what is going on at the moment.
that process people can be confident
in? He is effectively being
investigated by Jeremy Heywood, one
of his colleagues.
This is a tried
and tested process that has stood
the test of time, and it is
Has it? Surely what we
are learning is it has not stood the
test of time and that in fact
allegations like this have been
swept under the carpet and ignored
for years and years in Westminster,
exactly what we are learning right
I think you are conflating two
things they are, and what we really
do need to do is look at the whole
range of allegations people have
been making, and make sure
Parliament is a safe place for
people to work, a respectful
environment for people who have been
subjected to harassment or bullying
or inappropriate behaviour, so that
they feel confident to come forward
knowing they will be listened to,
that there will be an open and
transparent and fair to everyone
concerned process for getting to the
bottom of it, and that is exactly
what the Prime Minister and the
Leader of the Cows have set out,
Prime Minister's meeting with all
the leaders of the parties tomorrow
to set out a proper process so we
can modernise the work environment
at Westminster -- leader of the
House have set out.
You think Damian
Green should remain in the Cabinet
well being investigated?
be down to Sir Jeremy Heywood. If he
thinks the misdemeanours have a
basis, that he should stand aside,
that will be the recommendation. I
will not second the inquiry on what
Sir Jeremy Heywood finds.
in the Whips' Office yourself for a
year. And much has been said this
week of the whips being in receipt
of a lot of information about bad
behaviour, and instead of reporting
it to authorities they were using it
as ammunition. Was that your
Absolutely not. I was at
the Whips' Office up to 2015 and,
yes, I heard about the rumours of a
black spreadsheet, and I can
certainly say I never saw such a
thing. How I went about my business
as a whip is really twofold. It is
quite a technical job in many ways,
about of the Government through the
House, working with the House
authorities, the opposition. Also...
Did you ever hear rumours of these
people's bad behaviour?
you ever hear rumours of MPs
misbehaving, sexual harassment,
allegations are that?
If anybody had
brought a complaint to me about the
behaviour of one of the MPs who were
in my flock, I would take that
really seriously, but bull-mac, that
You said nobody
brought you a complaint. Did you
hear rumours? -- but no, that didn't
About the members of my
flock? Absolutely not.
Is that the
MPs you were specifically in charge
I did not have that experience
Let's move on and talk about
the Home Secretary's trip to
Washington this week, where she will
urge tech companies to go further
and faster on online child abuse. We
have heard a lot from this
Government urging these companies to
do something. One specific ideas of
what they could do, do you have a
clear idea of what you are asking
from tech companies?
right. As you know, this horrendous
crime of child sexual exploitation
and grooming is constantly evolving
as the opportunities for the
perpetrators arise. They are now
using live streaming, different
sorts of platforms, which are
largely controlled by the big
companies in America. What we really
want them to do is to step up and
use their huge expertise, used the
huge money they have got, to help
find technological solutions to read
their sites and rid the opportunity
of these paedophiles to be able to
groom young people. We need the
politicians in America to exert
pressure, as well as other
companies, because these are global
problems. We are not going to solve
this problem in the UK alone. We
have made a lot of progress, working
with Facebook and other companies as
well, but we really need to keep one
step ahead of the technology, one
step ahead of the perpetrators, who
are using these opportunities to
commit horrendous crimes.
It was back in 2014 Theresa May for
the Internet companies to do more in
terms of child abuse online and we
have not seen significant action,
and it does not appear these kind of
calls from the Government actually
Well, at the moment we are seeing
the police being able to make about
400 arrests per month, about 500
children being safeguarded. The
Government itself is investing a lot
of money in new technology like the
project Arachnid, and making sure
the police have the specialist
resources they need to go
undercover, and absolutely find
these perpetrators and bring them to
justice, but we do need to
constantly have the engagement and
support of the companies themselves
to invest in further technologies to
prevent this from happening. As you
say, we have made progress but we
need to see yet more.
thank you very much for speaking to
Michael Fallon's decision
to resign this week,
saying his past conduct with women
fell short of the standard expected
of the Armed Forces, led
to something of a minor reshuffle.
And the Prime Minister took
Westminster by surprise
when she announced his replacement,
former Chief Whip and relative
newcomer to the ministerial
ranks, Gavin Williamson.
Here he is speaking on the day
of his appointment.
It's an immense privilege to have
been appointed Secretary
of State for Defence,
and what we need to be doing
is continuing to focus
on countering Daesh,
making sure that our national
security is at the forefront
of everything that we do,
and we have some of the world's
greatest armed services,
and it's such a privilege to be able
to work with them.
Gavin Williamson, who you saw there,
arrives at the Ministry of Defence
at a challenging time
for UK defence.
The Government has promised
an above-inflation increase
in spending every year
but the Ministry of Defence
is already committed to finding
£20 billion of savings
over the next ten years.
The Cabinet Office is currently
conducting a security review
which will look at military
capabilities and funding up to 2022,
while there are continuing
reports of shortages
of manpower and equipment.
And if Labour were to win power,
questions persist over
what a Jeremy Corbyn premiership
would mean for defence budget
and the traditional cornerstones
of UK defence policy
like Trident and Nato.
Well we're joined now
by the Shadow Defence
secretary, Nia Griffith.
Well we're joined now
by the Shadow Defence
secretary, Nia Griffith.
Let's talk about defence spending
first. Would Labour commit to the
same thing this Government has which
is an above inflation increase in
spending every year?
absolutely clear about that. First
and foremost we'd meet our
commitment of spending at least 2%
of GDP on defence as is our Nato
commitment and we would match the
Government's year-on-year 0.5%
increase above inflation. This is
really important. Labour's always
had a good strong track record of
spending on defence.
seems to have a different view.
Speaking at a protest in 2010 he
said Labour wanted to fight all the
cuts except those in the Armed
Forces where we want to see a few
more cuts taking place. He doesn't
seem committed to defence spending?
In the manifesto for this year's
election, 2017, he and John
McDonnell have been absolutely clear
we support the exact words I've been
using now, at least 2% of the spend
of GDP spent on defence.
Corbyn's changed his mind on that?
He's been very clear about that and
it was in our manifesto this year.
You criticised the Government on
whether they meet their 2%
commitment on defence. You saying
they were fiddling the figures
because they were including
pensions. You would strip that out
and snake sure there's 2% spending
on defence which doesn't include
Government would argue you are
allowed to include pensions by the
Nato rules. But we've been very
clear, really, when you're talking
about defence spending it should
mean defence. When you look at the
last year of the Labour Government
we spent 2.5% GDP on defence. We are
very much committed to looking at
what we need in our defence budget
and looking to the problems they
have now where they can't meet the
commitments they've made.
sprip pensions out of those figures.
In order to live up to these
commitments you have to find an
extra billion for the defence
budgets because we're not
calculating pensions anymore?
McDonnell is well aware of what they
are doing. Putting in the conflict
resolution money which Gordon Brown
kept separate. He is well aware of
the figures and the difficulties. We
are certainly very committed to a
defence budget that really does make
I'm not clear whether
you're telling me it will be 2% 69
spending, excluding pensions?
want it to be 2% of GDP as in the
way Labour always calculate it had
up until 2010, not including
A significant increase in
We are talking
about making sure the spending we
need is there because, at the
current situation, we have with the
current Government, they are
overstretched. Even the very caution
National Audit Office says they are
at immense risk of not being able to
meet the expenditure commitment the
they have made. Others talk about a
black hole. You mentioned it that
£20 billion. There is a real issue
we have to address.
To you know what
it will cost, how muchedingsal funds
will have to be found?
We have to
rook at what are the needs at the
time as well as the facts we want to
make that 2% commitment not
including things which have just
been brushed in now by the
on to a different aspect of defence.
There is a treaty banning nuclear
weapons opened at the UN for
signatories. 122 countries have
already signed it. Would an incoming
Labour Government sign that treaty?
The important point here is there
was an Is inned opportunity for
there to be observers from the UK.
There should have been at that
That doesn't change
the calculation whether or not an
incoming Labour Government would
sign that treaty?
We are committed
to a strong multi-lateral disarming
programme. That's what we've seen
This is a multilateral
approach to try to get rid of
nuclear weapons. What you say you
want. Would a Labour Government sign
You we have to look at
how you go about things. We need toe
somebody clear we want to
de-escalate tensions across the
world. Work with other nuclear
partners to help stop the
proliferation of nuclear weapons. We
want to work with those countries
who feel very strongly about the
treaty so we can work together. We
have to do that in a multilateral
This is a multi-lateral
disarmament framework. Under the
auspice Is of the UN disto see how
else it could be organised. This is
a great opportunity for you, who
have been a lifelong campaigner for
disarmament.ment Labour Government
will be the first nuclear power to
do so, sign it and lead the way.
need to use our position to be
responsible and call for responsible
multi-lateral disarmamentment there
was progress made on this in the
eighties and nineties with
considerable amount of are heads put
to one side and destroyed. We need
to get back on the front foot there.
I don't see any presence by the UK
Government at the moment on that
aagain da. It is not helpful for the
nukes leer nations to be separated
from the non-nuclear nation in the
That's why I don't
understand why you're not taking the
opportunity to say a Labour
Government would Take The Stand.
should wok together and we should
use our position as a nuclear power
to work for a multilateral
You were very
clear in your manifesto that the
Labour Party would keep Trident for
Abs will yously.
know throughout his life, Jeremy
Corbyn's long wanted to get rid of
it. He signed up to the manifesto
saying Trident would stay. Has he
changed his minds?
thing is that was a manifesto
Jeremy, John McDonnell's agreed to.
We stood on it in 2017 because that
is the Labour Party position.
Absolutely. I'm asking if the Labour
Leader really believes in that
He believes in democracy
in the party. That is the Labour
Party position. I don't see that
position changing at all. He has
said very clearly that he accepts
that is our Labour Party position.
And that is the manifesto we've
stood on and will continue to stand
I'll need to ask questions about
sexual harassment in Westminster. It
is as much as inissue for the Labour
Party as the Conservative. It was
not clear listening to Dawn Butler,
your colleague on The Andrew Marr
Show this morning, she was asked
whether or not the leadership knew
about allegations by Kelvin Hopkins.
Do you know?
I absolutely do not
know at this moment in time. That's
why there has to be an
investigation. It is extremely
important to find out what the
allegations were, exactly what
happened, who was told and who told
what to whom. Then we will be in a
position to see what the situation
is. In the meantime, Kelvin Hopkins
has been suspended which is the
cricket thing to do.
has been outspoken about what she
let the leadership know. If it is
the case the leadership did know
about these allegations should he
have been put into the Shadow
The real question is who
did know what when.
But what I'm
asking you is...
I am anot going to
speculate whether there was an if or
whatever. We need to know how that
information was transmitted. Was it
put in writing. What it made clear,
who was told what, when. Until we
have a full investigation it would
be inappropriate to comment. What is
absolute lie clear, we need to get
this right for the future. We must
have proper procedures so we deal
with incidents as and when they
occur. And we deal with them
prepperly in a way which gets to the
bottom of the issue and deals with
Why should anyone have
confidence the Labour Party will
treat issues that seriously when,
firstly there's a question whether
they knew about Kelvin hop kips and
others have been dissuaded from
making complaints. Knots just Bex
Bailey. Monica Lennon said when she
was harassed at a party senior
figures in the Labour Party told her
it was her own fault. It seems as if
there hasn't been a culture within
Labour to make a complaint.
why we're having a thorough review
of procedures. We brought in new
procedures in July. We need to
ensure there's a proper helpline
available. We are appointing an
independent organisation which will
deal with allegations first-hand so
nobody has to go to somebody they
think might know other people, be
friends with other people. They can
go somewhere completely confidential
and private. These are often things
you can't want to tell your cross
friends about. We will appoint that
organisation and make sure people
can go there and access to it is
made widely known. It is very, very
important when people come into a
job, they know if anything does
happen, they will be able to
complain. Whether they are ordinary
party members or working in
Thank you for talking
For Thank you for talking to us some
on the left of politics,
this weekend wasn't just a chance
to mark the anniversary
of the failed gunpowder
plot here in Britain,
but also events in Russia 100 years
ago, when Bolshevik revolutionaries
led by Lenin seized power
and ushered in seven
decades of Communist rule.
For critics, that's something
to regret, not celebrate.
Elizabeth Glinka went to one event
in London to find out more.
The 7th November 1917.
Red Guards under the leadership
of Vladimir Lenin begin to occupy
Government buildings in Petrograd.
This uprising, known
popularly as Red October
because of the difference
in the Gregorian calendar,
was, in fact, a coup.
The winds of socialist change had
been blowing for some time.
The Tsars had resisted reform
and millions toiled in a state
of almost medieval surfdom.
Nearly two million
Russians would die.
The revolution had really begun nine
months earlier in February 1917.
The world's first socialist
republic was declared.
October, well that
was the Bolsheviks
asserting their authority.
A hundred years on, as this
event at the TUC shows,
there's still plenty of people
who want to remember and even
celebrate those momentous events.
Mainly as an event in history,
this is an example of historical
development in action,
the ability of people to club
together and be able to affect
the discourse of history.
It was people's first attempt at
trying to build socialism.
Although there were many terrible
things that happened,
I think we have to try
and draw from experience.
Jeremy Corbyn's close friend
and adviser, Andrew Murray,
was chairing the opening session.
He didn't want to talk to us
but we did manage to speak
to the daughter of one of the most
famous Communists of all time.
It's an historic moment
which opened up possibilities
for further changes
and allowed other people
to strive for a different world.
A world, which it seems,
some are still keen to push for.
We're growing, so there is obviously
a positive reflection.
There is a lot of negative
propaganda that comes
from the Cold War period.
It is harder to talk
to older people maybe.
But younger people
are quite receptive.
The events and discussions taking
place here today cover a whole range
of topics from women's
rights to the Third World
and the impact on British socialism.
But there's much less discussion
of the Russian Civil War,
the purges and the political
repression that would come later.
We wanted to have this conference
because we wanted to show it
in a positive light.
Whatever one's view of what happened
to the Soviet Union subsequently
the fact is it is important
to understand the process
of revolutionary change
for its own sake.
Red October would usher
in 70 years of communism.
The proletarite would rise,
find respect and security.
But the suppression of the peoples
of Eastern Europe, the forced labour
camps and the murder of hundreds
of thousands, if not millions
of people, make it difficult
for many to see that revolution
as something to celebrate.
That was Elizabeth Glinka reporting.
So is the centenary
of the Russian Revolution a cause
for celebration, or regret?
Well, to discuss this I'm
joined by former Labour
and Respect MP George Galloway,
and the journalist Peter Hitchens.
Good morning. Let me start with you
George Galloway. Is the October
revolution a cause for celebration?
With the, if not for the October
revolution, we'd been conducting
this interview in German. Though the
truth is this interview wouldn't be
taking place and we probably
wouldn't be alive for a variety of
reasons. The Soviet Union broke the
back of Hitler, as Mr Churchill
often owe pined in Parliament and
elsewhere. If not for the Soviet
Union, Hitler would have ruled. And
his successorsness, perhaps until
now, from Vladivostok all the way to
You say we wouldn't be
able to have this discussion. In the
former Soviet Union we couldn't have
this office either?
true. But even the...
George will be
able to say, that of course.
the sun has spots on its face as
they used to say in the Soviet
Union. There is no doubt tremendous
abrasions, big crimes, a lot of
suffering but, if not for the
transformation, then the Soviet
Union, Russia's GDP increased from
1930 to 190 and the Nazi occupation.
And the strength that defeated
Hitlerism would not have been there.
Peter Hitchens, does it offend you
there are people celebrating 100
years since the Russian Revolution?
Offend? No, but in the Soviet Union,
in which I lived, you would not have
been able to say it was set up by a
cynical bitch, almost bloodless, but
engineered by the German Imperial
Government using -- a cynical
putsch, almost bloodless. That this
was the inauguration of an immensely
long period of repression,
brutality, secret police,
concentration camps and lies, which
I am likely to have seen come to an
end in my lifetime, and I cannot see
why anybody looking at that
disastrous country where so much
misery was needlessly imposed on so
many people for so long could
possibly celebrate the beginning of
it, which was completely avoidable,
and as I say was truly the result of
the cynical foreign policy and
intelligence operations of the
Imperial German Government is trying
to save it skin...
including George Galloway
acknowledges the tyranny and terror
He doesn't. He gives
statistics about GDP but fails to
mention the people murdered in
camp... He was of course formerly a
Trotskyite and sung the praises of
Lenin, which I have not done and
neither have I done today. I have
never been a Communist, unlike Peter
Hitchens, but I do acknowledge and
celebrate that an entirely different
world opened up as a result of the
events in October 19 17. China, you
have just seen their party congress,
decorated with the iconography of
the Bolshevik Revolution, and China
is the most powerful, or soon will
be the most powerful country on the
With one of the most
I don't think
that is true. There is repression in
Enormous repression in
China! How can you possibly argue
there is an?
China has taken more
people out of poverty in the last 30
years than any country, resume,
system, ever has -- how can you
possibly argue there is not?
despots always argue, trying to
distract your attention from the
mountains of skulls behind them,
their supposed economic success,
which generally does not turn out to
be as great as claimed. The Soviet
Union was an enormous pile of rust
by the time I lived there and was a
Yes, that is
why it fell down. But we are talking
about the Revolution 100 years ago.
Is it possible to separate the two
events? A popular overthrowing of a
Is it possible to separate the two
government is perhaps different from
the tyranny and terror that
It was not a popular
overthrow. You sure this Eisenstein
propaganda as if it were fact. What
we see was a film made afterwards.
What actually happened was a putsch
in the middle of the night in which
hardly anybody... Nobody has even
That German connection,
a rather more important...
has even mentioned during this year
until now that there was a Russian
Revolution. There were two. The
first one was a genuine uprising,
overthrowing the old regime, and I
think we can all be glad of it. The
second one was a cynical for --
foreign financed putsch and it does
not deserve to be spoken out.
that true, and Menshevik revolution
would have done better than a
It is not my business
and entirely counterfactual fiction,
if I may...
Unlike how you open this
That is the most
important thing. If not for the
Soviet Union, we wouldn't be here.
Hetmyer might still, and most of the
world, with its allies -- Adolph
Hitler might have won and they make,
and most of the world...
of Bolshevism and coming is on
Europe was colossal.
Let's bring it
all a little bit more up-to-date.
You were saying earlier you have
You were saying earlier you have
never been a Leninist, although
Peter Hitchens confesses he was at
Absolutely was a
Absolutely was a
Trotskyist, and now nor the complete
folly of that particular political
John McDonnell in the
Labour Party openly says he is a
Trotskyist, a Leninist, is that a
problem for the Labour Party?
would have thought, arts would be
more respected now than he has been
for quite some time as capitalism is
collapsing around our ears. From
2008 the Economist itself, the bible
of capitalism, began to resurrect
Marxist economics and analysis, so I
really don't think it is. Jeremy
Corbyn is not a Marxist.
Corbyn is not a Marxist. It only
took them four years, 54...
took them four years, 54...
I think we are moving into
an era where Governments like the
Chinese Government are making plans,
and are succeeding in implementing
them, and thus transforming their
position. China in 1949, and I don't
need to tell you, was just about the
most backward place you could
possibly imagine. And from 1949 to
now it has sold transforms that it
is the world's biggest economy...
is the world's biggest economy...
are in danger of
are in danger of getting sidetracked
by China here.
I have to put this
point in. If China was backward in
1949 it was far more backward by the
time Mao Zedong finished his great
leap forward and starved millions of
people to death in the period of
economic lunacy. You just don't
What George was saying
they are, and a sense certainly
amongst younger voters in this
country and others, where they are
turning against capitalism, they
don't think it has worked or
delivered for them, that this kind
of Marxist Leninist philosophy is
becoming more popular?
not. The fact the current system is
failing does not seem to recommend
the Soviet system, which is
the Soviet system, which is
demonstrably a failure, and even its
own leaders admitted it failed and
that is why they tried to reform it
in the period I was there and why it
collapsed. Whatever you might want
to conclude from examining our
position, the Soviet alternative is
not the thing you want the dues.
This was a long period of disaster,
and I remember at the end of it
watching in Moscow said a film which
has never been shown
has never been shown here, and the
title means approximately we can't
go on living like this, and for the
first time, the politburo told the
truth about what life was like in
the dreadful place and everyone in
that cinema was weeping because
finally they saw the truth being
told about the dreadful
anti-civilisation in which they had
been taught to live for so long. The
idea we should celebrate it revive
it seems to me to be verging on the
George, one interesting
question about this of course,
whilst there are events going on in
London and across the UK to mark
this centenary, it is not being
celebrated in Russia.
I was in
Russia a couple of weeks ago. There
is a big debate about whether it
ought to be, and many people are
Vladimir Putin is
not. He would want to ignore it.
the Communist Party is the second
biggest party in Russia.
biggest party in Russia. And it is
the ruling party in China, which,
with respect, is not a separate
thing, because China is continuing
the Russian Revolution and doing
rather better at it than the
Russians did, but there are
Russians did, but there are many
people, particularly older, that is
true, who think that the era of the
Soviet Union was better than the
Soviet Union was better than the
very cold period of capitalism that
succeeded it. So half
succeeded it. So half the world
followed for a
followed for a time the red flag,
the red banner of Leninism. No one
will do so again.
will do so again. Leninism of the
kind that Peter used to proselytise
is certainly not coming back, but
Marxism is going to live on.
Thank you both, gentlemen,
for coming on to
It's coming up to 11.40am.
Good morning and welcome
to Sunday Politics Scotland.
Coming up on the programme...
What should Holyrood do
about sexual harassment claims,
after MSP Monica Lennon makes
allegations of sexual assault
and last night's resignation
of the Government
minister Mark McDonald?
will have a new leader in place
in two weeks' time.
I'll be speaking to the
two candidates Anas Sarwar
and Richard Leonard about why
they want the job.
And a former adviser
to Donald Trump has said the US
President could support Scottish
independence in a future referendum
but only "if it makes sense".
More claims of sexual harassment
have come to light as a Labour MSP
says she was sexually assaulted,
and a Scottish Government minister
resigned last night over his past
actions which he now
says were" considered
to be inappropriate".
Our political correspondent
Andrew Kerr has more.
Just bring us to speed with the
latest allegations at Holyrood.
morning. Monica Lennon is a rising
star in the Scottish Labour Party.
Before she became an MSP in 2013,
she says she was groped at a Labour
Party event by a senior male
colleague. She made an initial
complaint, but did not follow it
through because she was concerned
she would not be believed. She has
chosen to speak out just now the
highlight that sexism is rife, she
is calling for a change in culture
and so far she is the most senior
Labour politician to make such an
allegation. The Labour Party have
released a statement saying they
take all allegations seriously, we
ask anyone with a complaint to come
forward so allegations can be
investigated. The other big story
was that the SNP MSP Mark McDonald,
the childcare Minister resigned
citing that his behaviour had been
inappropriate and now the First
Minister will have to find a
replacement in due course, we are
told. Another story today as well,
this morning the Sunday Post is
reporting that Willie coffee, was
ported to Holyrood authorities after
a civil servant complained about his
behaviour. The MSP says he does not
recognise the claims about his
And it is not just
Holyrood, there is a string of
allegations at Westminster.
string that, the most important one
today I suppose is the fact an
investigation into the first
Secretary of State Damian Green has
been widened out over allegations
that pornography was found on his
office computer back in 2008. He was
an opposition that, the Labour Party
were in Government and their were
Home Office leaks, that is why it
was raided by police. He says the
story is completely untrue and comes
from a tainted and untrustworthy
salt. More allegations about the
former Secretary of State for
Defence Michael Fallon who resigned
juror in the week over his
behaviour, a female journalist says
he lunged at her a number of years
ago, friends of Sir Michael are not
denying the allegation. There are a
number of other stories in the
Sunday papers about Westminster too
numerous to mention.
Thank you for
We contacted the Scottish Government
this morning for comment about this
issue, but they were unable to put
anyone up for interview
on the programme.
Now, there are only two weeks left
in the Labour leadership contest
and both candidates have been
slugging it out over policy matters
in order to win members' votes.
We'll be asking them about their
claims to lead in a moment.
However, this morning
MSP Monica Lennon has made a fresh
allegation of sexual assault,
which she claimed was reported
to the party but she then decided
not to take it further
because she felt she
would not be believed.
Well, Anas Sarwar and Richard
Leonard are in the studio now.
Welcome to you both.
Just on this whole issue, Anas
Sarwar, of sexual harassment. The
allegations are reported from Monica
Lennon but also from other people in
the Labour Party. There is a culture
within Labour where they feel they
cannot come forward to complain,
that they are, if they do mention
it, it is trivialised and they are
made fun of. This is not good, is
there are a serious problem and what
should be done?
Monica Lennon is a
colleague and friend of both Richard
and I and I believe both of those
would be distressed to read the news
this morning. The reality is this is
not an isolated case within the
Labour Party, sadly wherever there
are those who think they have a
perceived position of power, they
abuse it, that is happening within
political parties and in our
Parliament and probably happening in
workplaces across the country. What
we have to do is try and create the
space for a woman to be able to come
forward and speak if they wish to do
so, not forced to, but if they wish
to do so, create safe spaces for
that. This culture of people abusing
their position of power is
unacceptable, unacceptable many
years ago and it is unacceptable
now. That is why ministers may say
it was OK in the past, but not now.
The fact is that that safe space to
come forward and be taken seriously,
people like Monica Lennon and others
do not feel there is a culture in
the Labour Party where they can do
That is something we need to
fix. I am somebody who strongly
supports the idea of an independent
channel that people can go down so
they are not speaking to people
where there may be a perceived or
actual conflict of interest. I think
what we need to do as the Scottish
Labour Party is appoint someone of
some standing, perhaps someone with
a background image quality is
Someone outside the
Certainly outside the
Parliamentary structures and the
representative structures of the
Labour Party. Someone with an
sufficient independence and a
sufficient standing in the eyes of
both women members and those people
who think they have been wronged. I
think we need to create the space,
and independent space separate from
the current structures of the Labour
Party in order to do that because
the revelations today by Monica
Lennon are appalling. If her story
is that she has complained to the
Labour Party and not felt confident
than to pursue it, that is wrong.
Also there was a culture where she
mentioned it was trivialised, to was
not taken seriously. Other women
have said that as well.
women have said that to me recently
and I think we need to act on it, I
do not think we can ignore it, I
think we need to take strident
action. After all, the Labour Party
is founded on the value of equality
and if women do not feel
comfortable, if they feel as if they
are opening themselves up
potentially do this kind of
behaviour, then that is not a
welcoming Labour Party and that is
not a Labour Party we can't
tolerate. We need zero tolerance of
this, and into independent route set
up by the Labour Party and we need
to take action now.
You two are
standing against each other, the
voting has started. Anas Sarwar,
give me one policy you have that
Richard Leonard doesn't have that
makes you think people should vote
We are currently facing
austerity right across the country
and we have tax powers in Scotland
to stop austerity but about is why I
want to use the tax powers we have
to create a genuinely progressive
redistribution of tax policy. A
significant tax increase to the 2%.
Richard Leonard once that as well.
Richard Leonard once that as well.
want to increase tax in the top 2%
which would raise millions of pounds
to fund our Scottish child tax
credit policy and put in new money
into our schools and hospitals.
is your distinctive policy?
a once in a generation debate about
the kind of society we want to
build, the public services we need
and how we will fund that. We need a
debate about our taxation approach.
What I have said which is
distinctive from Anas Mapproach is
we now need to look at a wealth tax
because we live in a society where
the top 1% in Scotland and more
wealth than the bottom 50%.
say a wealth tax, what are you
I am talking about a
1% windfall levy on the wealth of
the top 10% that would bring in a
£3.7 billion into Scottish
The Scottish Government
have said it is not within the power
of the Scottish Government,
parliament is to do that.
There is a
route to do it through an order of
Council and of the 1998 Scotland act
and I believe this is about
political will, a matter of
creativity, a matter of saying we
cannot go on as we are. Simply
trying to manage our way out of it.
You are saying we should value the
assets of everyone in Scotland and
the top 1% will take 1% of those
In we value them anyway.
Why are you
against that? I am not against that.
The reality is we do not have time
for the debate and we do not have
time for an argument about what is
within the law and not within the
law in the Scottish Government. I
have put forward a plan that will
address and end austerity in a few
Neither of you are
going to be First Minister.
next decade. There is a discussion
paper being forehead by the Scottish
Government. We know that. That is
asking for a tax policies. I am
saying that rather than talking
about what we might do in two or
three years' time, I want to end
austerity nine. We will cut tax at
the bottom 50% and increase tax on
the top 2%.
Throughout this campaign
supporters of both of you have been
making a big fuss about recruitment
to the Labour Party in order to vote
for you. There have been allegations
on your side, Anas, there have been
separate ballots, there have been
allegations that the Unite union
have been recruiting on your side.
Is it true, Anas, that you sort QC's
advice on the legality of this
We raised concerns that
were brought to us by individual
members from one particular union.
But did you get QC's involved?
was so that we could have... What
did that value? There should be a
level playing field and it should be
the same rule applied right
across... Are you suggesting there
wasn't. We were told that was not
the case and we took it forward.
you got advice. You are not
suggesting you will act on that. Can
you give us an Guaranty, even if
this result of this election is very
close, you will not challenge it in
My fundamental issue is
that we want to make sure that
procedure is there. What I want to
see happen is this contest is to be
about the ideas and after this
contest, whoever wins, we unite
behind their leader and get behind
So even if there is a narrow
win for Richard Leonard, you will
not challenge in the courts?
will support Richard. And I would
hope that Richard would do the same
Would you do that? Is Anas
wins, you will not resort to legal
challenge and accept the result?
will accept the result. I have put
my faith in the internal Labour
Party process. I think it is a
fairly robust process. Accretions
layer people have been found out
they should not have a ballot, their
names have come to light because the
scrutiny and checks and balances.
The other thing I want to emphasise
is that the growth in membership of
the Labour Party is a good thing. It
is something that I welcome and then
I think Anas welcomes, too.
established that no matter what the
result is, both of you will accept
it. That is the case, right?
course. I want us to welcome all
members. And any suggestions that
somehow we should racially profiled
the membership, I want people who
trade unionists, not trade
But you're not
There have been
suggestions in the newspaper that
some people feel their membership
has been questioned. I want people
to be welcome from all communities
and every background.
You did rather
better in the general election than
perhaps either of you were
expecting. There is a view, Richard
Leonard, that was more to do with
Jeremy Corbyn than anything to do
with anything this Scottish Labour
Party did. Would you subscribed to
Largely. We had an opportunity
during the general election which we
messed. To understand that Jeremy
Corbyn was proven to be a principled
and popular leader. And that the
manifesto we stood on which was a
radical manifesto which offered
people a vision of a different kind
of society, was a hopeful vision,
was winning support amongst people.
Within the debate inside Scotland,
we simply smoke about this Scottish
I want to
ask Anas, one of the criticisms of
view is that you were only a year
ago in favour of turfing Jeremy
Corbyn out from the leadership of
the Labour Party. People say how can
you be a leader that represents the
carbon Labour Party that seems to be
making inroads for Labour in
Scotland? -- Jeremy Corbyn.
him to be Prime Minister. I want
Jeremy Corbyn to be Prime Minister,
but that is not just the only job of
a Scottish leader. We do energise
between the many not the few
manifesto. He made people believe
again that we can return a Labour
government. Let's be honest about
that result in June, we did not win.
We got thrashed, particularly in
Scotland. We did make gains, but at
the same time the Tories ran the
worst campaign in living memory and
needed 300,000 votes in Scotland. We
can only deliver a UK Labour
government and Jeremy Corbyn as
Prime Minister if we have an
effective Labour Party in Scotland.
The other side of this is, Richard
Leonard, this Richard Leonard, he
says he is more ensuring with the
carbon Labour Party. In what way are
you more radical than Anna Sarwar?
-- Jeremy Corbyn Labour Party.
in favour of an extension of public
ownership. I am in favour of an
industrial strategy in which the
role of the government is to plan
more in the in the economy, rather
than relying on market forces. I am
in favour of longer term action to
end poverty and doing inequality.
Nor nods from -- more modern nods
I do not think we can
have an approach to social security
which is predicated on the
continuation of a low value Scottish
economy. Do you think he does? I
have somebody who has campaigned for
and worked for decent conditions for
people in my entire adult political
You have not told me one
radical policy that you have that
Anna Sarwar does not support.
support the right of working people
to buy an enterprise they working,
if it is put Brazil, are facing
closure. -- Anas Sarwar.
I have some
radical policies that Richard does
not agree with, the Scottish Child
tax credit to remove more children
out of poverty.
out of poverty. 300,000 jobs are
directly linked to membership of the
single market and the customs union.
I am going to talk about you live in
a moment. One of the allegations you
have not had your moment to seek in
this campaign, you have given up
your shareholding in your family
firm. What would you say to members
watching this and wondering which
way to vote, you wear a big
shareholder in your family firm
which does not, it does not pay the
real living wage in Scotland, but
does not really recognise trade
unions. You had an opportunity to
influence that firm to recognise
trade unions. So if you did not do
that as a shareholder, why should we
take seriously what you are saying
no, wanting to promote trade unions
and society more widely?
I am glad
you have asked that question. The
reality is that there are trade
union members within the workforce,
what we are talking about here is a
formal trade union recognition.
There is no formal trade union
recognition in that workplace. But I
did not take that company's word for
it. I spoke to the trade union
directly and they also told me that
they had not read Quested
Hang on a
second, you are saying there is no
formal trade union recognition in
which you are a major shareholder.
What I am saying is when I spoke to
the trade union, they said they had
a good relationship with the
company. And I want to support
further trade union...
go to private school. Pat Rafferty
of the Unite trade union, said how
good to skate -- state schools in
Scotland have two B before Anas
Sarwar will put his children in
He attacked may
saying that I am trying to break up
the Labour Party and not demonstrate
unity when he did that very thing.
If he thinks attacking my children
on the platform of a conference, I
do not think that is acceptable.
People are not attacking your
He is politicising my
children for his own purposes.
a choice you are entitled as a
citizen to make. But not as leader
of the Labour Party.
The point I
make is this, that is a decision for
myself and my way to make. That is
the decision we made as a couple and
I would hope people would accept her
decision. The important point is we
have 4000 fewer teachers and skills
because of the SNP.
We are running
out of time. -- in our schools.
Richard Leonard, do you have a
problem with our staff. Anna Sarwar
is a long-standing member of the
Labour Party, he is someone who
comes from a wealthy family so he
does not have an -- to be in the
position he is in. -- Anas Sarwar.
am an NHS dentist by profession.
shouldn't he do these things?
we are in the middle of the ballot
to elect the next leader of the
Scottish Labour Party. I would
rather stand on my own record which
is on the straight Scottish trade
union and Labour... I entered public
office to advance the position of
So when Pat Rafferty
says that about Anas Sarwar, one of
your most prominent supporters, what
would you say to Pat Rafferty, that
is not reasonable?
Pat Rafferty has
a mandate from his membership and
will be accountable to his
membership. He is not accountable to
me, is he?
But you would be entitled
as leader of the Scottish Labour
Party to make a comment on it.
offered his own view to his
membership about some of the tests
that they think should apply in
considering who they should fought
for in the ballot.
Sarwar is saying it is not
reasonable to question where he
decides to send his children to
school. Pat Rafferty is done that. I
am asking you to say, I agree with
Pat Rafferty or not on saying that.
I do not know of that is an answer.
Europe. You have made the big thing
about how we should stay in the
single market. We cannot stay in the
single market because it is not
Labour Party policy.
discussed this with Keir Starmer. It
is not policy to support the single
market. The point I am making is I
am not waiting for permission to see
what I think is in the best interest
of Scotland or the UK. No one voted
to lose their job, no one voted to
make themselves poorer, no one voted
for a turbo-charged austerity, if
you are genuine about protecting
jobs and trade... You can only do
that with permanent membership of
the single market.
The point would
be against you which is that, look,
it may be that the Labour Party is
again staying in the single market,
but people in Scotland voted to stay
in Europe. You make a lot of the
thing about being the leader of the
Scottish Labour Party, is it not
better for them to have Anas
It is about
access to the single market without
a barrier, without tariff barrier in
particular. That is something I
fully support. I support the defence
of equal rights, I support the need
to protect jobs and defend the
Scottish economy. And I believe
there are ways of doing that without
necessarily having membership of the
We will have to leave
it there. Thank you both very much
indeed. Thank you for joining us
A former adviser to Donald Trump has
suggested the US President
could support Scottish independence
in a future referendum,
but only if it makes economic sense.
Sebastian Gorka, who worked
in the White House until August,
told BBC Scotland that the President
was a "pragmatist".
Our political correspondent,
Glenn Campbell, has more.
America first. Donald Trump made
this promise to the American people
on the day he took office. Earlier,
during the election campaign in
Scotland, he also endorsed Brexit.
People want to see borders. They
don't necessarily want people
pouring into their country. That
they do not know who they are and
where they come from, they have no
idea. I think not only did it win,
but it won buy a bigger margin.
is behind the President's thinking.
Everything the president does is win
by one word, sovereignty. He
believed nations streets prosper
when they are sovereign. And if you
have a cultural connection, if you
are part of the Judeo Christian
civilisation, whether you are Poland
or the UK or the Scottish nation, we
have connections to. We would like
you to thrive.
If we thrive, you
thrive. If Donald Trump is so keen
on sovereignty, mighty back
independence for Scotland in a
You have to look
at the nickel and dime at the end of
the way. Does that economic clay
make sense. Is there a future that
is connected to devolution. He is a
pride to most. He is a patriot. This
is a man who left behind billions
and went into an arena where he
would be attacked. His ten-year-old
son would be attacked by the media.
He did not need to do this. So if it
makes sense pragmatically, why would
he not support it. I would not say
he is there, but he is somebody who
looks at the reality, not the
We obviously have a deep interest in
making sure that one of the closest
allies that we will ever have
remains strong, robust, United and
an effective partner.
President Obama opposed independence
that he was not alone.
I would say I
hope it doesn't happen. I do not
have a vote in Scotland, but I hope
it doesn't happen.
But at that time,
Donald Trump was more cautious
Three, two, one.
recently, you said independence
would be terrible because in his
view Scotland might lose hosting
rights for the apple mac open golf
tournament. He questions the value
of his backing.
He was hedging his
bets before the referendum, though
once the decision had been made in
2014, you moved to an opposition
attitude to independence.
Is it time
to kiss and make up?
The cause of
independence depends on many things.
It depends on having a vision of the
future where you look at how
Scotland is governed and how the
world is governed in a positive and
progressive way. I cannot feel that
Donald Trump would do anything other
than damage that vision by
association, so I think our
relationship with Donald Trump is
the one we have right now.
Trump seems much closer to UK
nationalists than those that want
Scotland to be an independent state.
Thank you. Good evening,
And our political correspondent
Glenn Campbell has been looking
into the relationship
between the President and Scotland
in the documentary Donald Trump:
Scotland's President, which will be
broadcast on Thursday at 9pm
on BBC One Scotland.
Now, it's time to take
a look at the week ahead.
This week I'm joined by journalist
Kathleen Nutt and Scotland Editor
for The Guardian, Severin Carrell.
Kathleen, a string of allegations
now in Holyrood and Westminster.
Where do we go from here?
Where do we go from here?
is very difficult, I think the
parties are going to have to get on
top of this, I think Richard
Leonard's suggestion of an
independent body set up, a group set
up for women of the party to
investigate women to take their
complaints to be investigated.
Monica Lennon's claim today work
completely shocking, shocking that
they happened and they were
trivialised and shocking she felt
she could not report them.
not the only person in the Labour
Party to have similar allegations,
that there is a culture where you
were basically laughed that if you
What Monica was
referring to was a wider issue in
other parties as well, by the nature
of power and how hierarchies and how
women feel they are marginalised
when it comes to challenging those
kinds of privileges and powers. I am
not sure Richard's proposal would be
a Scottish Labour exercise
appropriate for labour as I
suspected something cultural
throughout the party, UK level also.
An obvious thing would be to take up
Richard Leonard's proposal, but for
all the party. Maybe not a
Parliamentary thing, but maybe each
party do that, and he says that can
be done UK level as well.
spoke to Monica Lennon she was
suggesting Holyrood should set up an
investigation to find out what the
extent of this problem is in the
Scottish Parliament and I think
there is also going to be questions
this week about the male dominance
of some of the key organisations and
groups in Holyrood, for example the
corporate body which runs Holyrood,
which at the moment is totally
dominated by men.
It does not
surprise you that this should this
be such a problem given this has
been talked about? What is odd about
this is that, it is not art, it is
disappointing, but it has come to
light because of something happening
I'm not surprised. It is
endemic in society and did not
surprising that it it is in all
workplaces including the Holyrood. I
think women have been emboldened by
the Harvey Weinstein allegation,
they feel they can come forward and
they will be listened to, that
people are taking these claims
But will they? Well
something fundamental change this
time? Because we have been here
before and if one said, this is a
serious problem and the culture has
to change. Clearly it hasn't.
think this is a watershed moment
where there is a point where the
power is being reversed because many
women have got the courage to come
forward and speak openly now. There
is a critical mass that has built up
behind this and the Harvey Weinstein
business was a trigger for that.
That is symptomatic of all great
scandals, all great scandals by
definition will simply blow up
because there is the build-up like a
volcano of so much pressure which
needs a way to vent itself. With the
question in Scotland, one of the
problems I have about Richard
Leonard's proposition is all the
parties are going to behave equally
openly and one of the striking
things of the children's minister's
resignation is he was imposed to
five days even be they knew there
were allegations against him and it
has taken five days for action.
Other parties, as soon as there was
allegations against a member of the
party, but person is suspended and
the SNP are behaving differently
from the other parties. I think the
Tory problem is even worse because
it is quite clearly evident there is
information known to the hierarchy
that has not been acted on for a
long period of time.
We are almost
out of time. I was looking forward
to asking about your thoughts on the
debate between the possible future
It will be
interesting to see when the new
leader is announced on the 18th if
they can have some sort of
re-conciliation and move forward. I
think it will be difficult.
Whether the two camps can
carry on their internal feuding is
I think they
They will continue feuding?
I think they will settle this and
move on. There have been animosity
is bubbling under the surface, but
actually the party's crisis is
deeper whether they agree on party
Thank you both very much