Browse content similar to 05/11/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning, everyone,
and welcome to the Sunday Politics. | 0:00:36 | 0:00:38 | |
I'm Sarah Smith. | 0:00:38 | 0:00:40 | |
And this is your guide to everything
that's happening in the world | 0:00:40 | 0:00:43 | |
of politics this Sunday morning. | 0:00:43 | 0:00:44 | |
On today's show: | 0:00:44 | 0:00:48 | |
Theresa May's right-hand man
Damian Green has denied claims that | 0:00:48 | 0:00:50 | |
police found pornography
on a computer in his office in 2008. | 0:00:50 | 0:00:56 | |
He says the allegations by a former
police chief are "political smears." | 0:00:56 | 0:00:59 | |
With claims of sexual harassment
at Westminster growing by the day, | 0:00:59 | 0:01:02 | |
can either Theresa May
or Jeremy Corbyn do anything to get | 0:01:02 | 0:01:05 | |
to grips with a scandal
threatening to engulf | 0:01:05 | 0:01:06 | |
the entire political class? | 0:01:06 | 0:01:10 | |
We'll ask a minister and senior
member of the Shadow Cabinet. | 0:01:10 | 0:01:17 | |
And some on the left of politics
have been gathering to mark 100 | 0:01:17 | 0:01:20 | |
years since the Russian Revolution,
but was it an event that should be | 0:01:20 | 0:01:23 | |
And on Sunday Politics Scotland,
more sexual harassment claims come | 0:01:23 | 0:01:26 | |
to light as a Labour MSP says
she was sexually assaulted | 0:01:26 | 0:01:29 | |
and a Government minister
is forced to resign. | 0:01:29 | 0:01:33 | |
So there's plenty of
explosive political news | 0:01:45 | 0:01:46 | |
to get you in the mood
for bonfire night - | 0:01:46 | 0:01:49 | |
and with me as usual,
three journalists who know quite | 0:01:49 | 0:01:51 | |
a bit about parliamentary plots -
if rather less about | 0:01:51 | 0:01:54 | |
gunpowder and treason. | 0:01:54 | 0:01:55 | |
It's Tom Newton Dunn,
Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards. | 0:01:55 | 0:01:57 | |
So what are the big political
stories making the news this Sunday? | 0:01:57 | 0:02:00 | |
Well, the papers are brimming
with further allegations against MPs | 0:02:00 | 0:02:09 | |
in the sexual harassment scandal,
which according to one newspaper has | 0:02:09 | 0:02:11 | |
left Westminster frozen in fear. | 0:02:11 | 0:02:12 | |
First Secretary of State Damian
Green, already under | 0:02:12 | 0:02:14 | |
investigation over allegations -
which he strongly denies - | 0:02:14 | 0:02:16 | |
of propositioning a female activist,
is the subject of new claims that | 0:02:16 | 0:02:20 | |
police discovered pornography
on a computer in his Westminster | 0:02:20 | 0:02:22 | |
office in 2008. | 0:02:22 | 0:02:23 | |
Mr Green denies the allegation,
made by former senior | 0:02:23 | 0:02:25 | |
police officer Bob Quick,
saying it is "completely untrue," | 0:02:25 | 0:02:28 | |
and adding that he is the victim
of disreputable "political smears." | 0:02:28 | 0:02:36 | |
Michael Fallon, who resigned
as Defence Secretary this week | 0:02:36 | 0:02:38 | |
over his past behaviour,
is also subject to fresh claims | 0:02:38 | 0:02:40 | |
he lunged at a female journalist
in 2003 after a lunch. | 0:02:40 | 0:02:46 | |
Labour is facing questions
over its handling of sexual | 0:02:46 | 0:02:48 | |
misconduct allegations. | 0:02:48 | 0:02:55 | |
This morning Shadow Cabinet minister
Dawn Butler refused to be drawn | 0:02:55 | 0:02:58 | |
on whether Jeremy Corbyn knew
about alleged misconduct by MP | 0:02:58 | 0:03:00 | |
Kelvin Hopkins when he was promoted
to the Shadow Cabinet. | 0:03:00 | 0:03:08 | |
And there is a reminder that normal
political life goes on, | 0:03:08 | 0:03:11 | |
with reports that the Cabinet has
agreed to put housing at the heart | 0:03:11 | 0:03:14 | |
of Philip Hammond's upcoming Budget. | 0:03:14 | 0:03:15 | |
Well, let's hear from
Home Secretary Amber Rudd now - | 0:03:15 | 0:03:17 | |
she was on the Andrew Marr Show
earlier talking about the claims | 0:03:17 | 0:03:20 | |
against her Cabinet colleague Damian
Green. | 0:03:20 | 0:03:23 | |
Absolutely not. I think it is
something that will take place in | 0:03:23 | 0:03:29 | |
terms of clearing out Westminster of
that sort of behaviour, and I think | 0:03:29 | 0:03:34 | |
that Westminster afterwards,
including the Government, will be | 0:03:34 | 0:03:36 | |
better for it. When we are confident
that men and women can work any | 0:03:36 | 0:03:45 | |
respectful environment and people on
the receiving end of abuse of power | 0:03:45 | 0:03:48 | |
can come forward. That will be a
positive thing. | 0:03:48 | 0:03:54 | |
Let's see what our panel make of
this fairly explosive week. Good | 0:03:54 | 0:03:58 | |
morning to all of you. Starting with
you, Steve. Not a party political | 0:03:58 | 0:04:05 | |
issue but the Tories are in
Government. How much harder for them | 0:04:05 | 0:04:08 | |
is it an Labour? Always harder when
you are in Government because it | 0:04:08 | 0:04:13 | |
makes governing almost impossible.
And the wider context is a Prime | 0:04:13 | 0:04:17 | |
Minister who lost her overall
majority a few months ago and | 0:04:17 | 0:04:20 | |
actually that is the context of
everything. When you are having to | 0:04:20 | 0:04:23 | |
deal with the scandal of such
unpredictability, where the | 0:04:23 | 0:04:26 | |
terms are so imprecise, it is a
"lunge", a resignation issue, to use | 0:04:26 | 0:04:37 | |
that term, and nightmare. I don't
think it is fatal. Scandals rarely | 0:04:37 | 0:04:41 | |
bring down governments, but it makes
governing for Theresa May a form of | 0:04:41 | 0:04:47 | |
political health. Isabel Oakeshott,
Damian Green has denied all | 0:04:47 | 0:04:50 | |
allegations made against him, but
there are more this morning. He is | 0:04:50 | 0:04:54 | |
being investigated by the Cabinet
Office at the moment. If Theresa May | 0:04:54 | 0:04:59 | |
were to effectively lose her Deputy
Prime Minister, has serious without | 0:04:59 | 0:05:03 | |
the? I think very serious indeed. I
think it is very significant and | 0:05:03 | 0:05:07 | |
strange he was not defended in the
Home Secretary Amber Rudd in that | 0:05:07 | 0:05:11 | |
clip we saw today, she didn't say I
am certain he will survive, and I am | 0:05:11 | 0:05:15 | |
beginning to feel that Damian may
not survive this. We don't know | 0:05:15 | 0:05:20 | |
whether it is the last of the
allegations that may come out in | 0:05:20 | 0:05:23 | |
relation to him. It seems to me that
the allegations were previously of a | 0:05:23 | 0:05:27 | |
rather minor order, but this seems
to have escalated. And I think one | 0:05:27 | 0:05:33 | |
of the big problems for Theresa May,
and there are the many at the | 0:05:33 | 0:05:36 | |
moment, for months we have been
saying that this Government has no | 0:05:36 | 0:05:42 | |
bandwidth to do anything except
Brexit and right now she can't even | 0:05:42 | 0:05:45 | |
do Brexit. What is the point of it
all? It is important to make clear | 0:05:45 | 0:05:49 | |
not only that Damian Green denies
all of these allegations, but the | 0:05:49 | 0:05:53 | |
computer mentioned was in a shared
office so there is no reason it | 0:05:53 | 0:05:59 | |
would definitely be his
# No guarantee it would definitely | 0:05:59 | 0:06:03 | |
be his. But we have had two MPs on
television this morning, Anna | 0:06:03 | 0:06:15 | |
Soubry, saying he should stand down.
There is an awful lot going on here. | 0:06:15 | 0:06:20 | |
It is not just a pretty awful sexual
harassment scandal. There are also | 0:06:20 | 0:06:26 | |
without a doubt MPs, police
officers, going about settling | 0:06:26 | 0:06:30 | |
scores. For me I have to say for our
pretty discredited police officer | 0:06:30 | 0:06:35 | |
Bob Quick, to make accusations
against serving Cabinet minister, to | 0:06:35 | 0:06:39 | |
suggest he should go for extreme
pornography on computers he may or | 0:06:39 | 0:06:46 | |
may not have known, it may be
extremely distasteful but it is | 0:06:46 | 0:06:49 | |
alarming for democracy to have
ex-police officers like this coming | 0:06:49 | 0:06:52 | |
in and trying to play with
democracy. Some politicians are also | 0:06:52 | 0:06:56 | |
meeting claims, some for the right
reasons to get the allegations out | 0:06:56 | 0:06:59 | |
there and so on but others for their
own agendas and all of this puts the | 0:06:59 | 0:07:03 | |
Prime Minister in an unbelievably
hard situation. I agree with Steve | 0:07:03 | 0:07:06 | |
and Isabel, she desperately needs
two show leadership in all this, but | 0:07:06 | 0:07:10 | |
every way she could turn there are
incredible downfalls, people blaming | 0:07:10 | 0:07:13 | |
her for trying to get to the bottom
of all this. It is very people who | 0:07:13 | 0:07:18 | |
she is relying on for her
leadership, the very Tory MPs the | 0:07:18 | 0:07:22 | |
support she can't lose. It is not
just the Tory party and of course | 0:07:22 | 0:07:25 | |
Jeremy Corbyn will be making a
speech later today where this will | 0:07:25 | 0:07:29 | |
inevitably and there are accusations
about how the senior leadership in | 0:07:29 | 0:07:32 | |
the Labour Party have handled this.
What about that situation? Yes, but | 0:07:32 | 0:07:38 | |
the Government is much harder
because you are meant to be doing | 0:07:38 | 0:07:40 | |
10,000 other things at the same
time. This is about a deregulated | 0:07:40 | 0:07:44 | |
work environment. For all those who
say, I hate the way Britain is too | 0:07:44 | 0:07:48 | |
regulated, this is what happens in a
deregulated work environment. The | 0:07:48 | 0:07:51 | |
House of Commons has no HR or
whatever, MPs, advisors, so, MPs | 0:07:51 | 0:08:00 | |
actually don't have much power but
they do have power over who the | 0:08:00 | 0:08:03 | |
point and how to treat them. I think
this is the way forward in terms of | 0:08:03 | 0:08:07 | |
the practical outcome, but it is
across the political spectrum. But | 0:08:07 | 0:08:10 | |
it is unclear what it will be. Can
the party sort this out? I'm not | 0:08:10 | 0:08:16 | |
sure I entirely agree, Steve, you
cannot regulate all human | 0:08:16 | 0:08:19 | |
interaction and a lot of these
stories have been about interactions | 0:08:19 | 0:08:23 | |
between politicians and journalists
alike, who have gone out for lunch, | 0:08:23 | 0:08:28 | |
chosen to drink, presumably to
create an informal atmosphere, and | 0:08:28 | 0:08:34 | |
at what point is a step towards
somebody to say goodbye, a peck on | 0:08:34 | 0:08:38 | |
the cheek or whatever, a lunge? You
can't regulate that sort of thing. | 0:08:38 | 0:08:43 | |
Throughout the programme will come
back to some of these things and how | 0:08:43 | 0:08:48 | |
they might be regulated. | 0:08:48 | 0:08:50 | |
Now, the Home Secretary has
also today been talking | 0:08:50 | 0:08:52 | |
about what she calls the "moral
duty" of social media companies | 0:08:52 | 0:08:54 | |
to stop child sexual exploitation,
ahead of a meeting with her US | 0:08:54 | 0:08:57 | |
counterparts this week. | 0:08:57 | 0:08:59 | |
We're joined now by the Home Office
minister Sarah Newton - | 0:08:59 | 0:09:01 | |
she's in our Truro studio. | 0:09:01 | 0:09:03 | |
Thanks very much for coming in to
speak the first night. I want to | 0:09:03 | 0:09:06 | |
talk to you about the Government's
efforts to tackle child pornography, | 0:09:06 | 0:09:10 | |
but let's pick up on some of the
sexual harassment issues at | 0:09:10 | 0:09:13 | |
Westminster first. Two of your
parliamentary colleagues this | 0:09:13 | 0:09:17 | |
morning saying they think the first
Secretary of State Damian Green | 0:09:17 | 0:09:20 | |
should step down whilst being
investigated. Do you agree? Look, he | 0:09:20 | 0:09:26 | |
has vigorously denied these
accusations, and the Cabinet Office | 0:09:26 | 0:09:32 | |
is investigating these accusations,
so we do have processes for when | 0:09:32 | 0:09:37 | |
ministers have these accusations
made against them so they are | 0:09:37 | 0:09:40 | |
properly investigated. And that is
what is going on at the moment. Is | 0:09:40 | 0:09:44 | |
that process people can be confident
in? He is effectively being | 0:09:44 | 0:09:49 | |
investigated by Jeremy Heywood, one
of his colleagues. This is a tried | 0:09:49 | 0:09:55 | |
and tested process that has stood
the test of time, and it is | 0:09:55 | 0:10:00 | |
important... Has it? Surely what we
are learning is it has not stood the | 0:10:00 | 0:10:03 | |
test of time and that in fact
allegations like this have been | 0:10:03 | 0:10:06 | |
swept under the carpet and ignored
for years and years in Westminster, | 0:10:06 | 0:10:10 | |
exactly what we are learning right
now. I think you are conflating two | 0:10:10 | 0:10:15 | |
things they are, and what we really
do need to do is look at the whole | 0:10:15 | 0:10:18 | |
range of allegations people have
been making, and make sure | 0:10:18 | 0:10:22 | |
Parliament is a safe place for
people to work, a respectful | 0:10:22 | 0:10:26 | |
environment for people who have been
subjected to harassment or bullying | 0:10:26 | 0:10:32 | |
or inappropriate behaviour, so that
they feel confident to come forward | 0:10:32 | 0:10:34 | |
knowing they will be listened to,
that there will be an open and | 0:10:34 | 0:10:38 | |
transparent and fair to everyone
concerned process for getting to the | 0:10:38 | 0:10:41 | |
bottom of it, and that is exactly
what the Prime Minister and the | 0:10:41 | 0:10:46 | |
Leader of the Cows have set out,
Prime Minister's meeting with all | 0:10:46 | 0:10:51 | |
the leaders of the parties tomorrow
to set out a proper process so we | 0:10:51 | 0:10:56 | |
can modernise the work environment
at Westminster -- leader of the | 0:10:56 | 0:11:04 | |
House have set out. You think Damian
Green should remain in the Cabinet | 0:11:04 | 0:11:08 | |
well being investigated? That will
be down to Sir Jeremy Heywood. If he | 0:11:08 | 0:11:14 | |
thinks the misdemeanours have a
basis, that he should stand aside, | 0:11:14 | 0:11:18 | |
that will be the recommendation. I
will not second the inquiry on what | 0:11:18 | 0:11:23 | |
Sir Jeremy Heywood finds. You were
in the Whips' Office yourself for a | 0:11:23 | 0:11:27 | |
year. And much has been said this
week of the whips being in receipt | 0:11:27 | 0:11:31 | |
of a lot of information about bad
behaviour, and instead of reporting | 0:11:31 | 0:11:35 | |
it to authorities they were using it
as ammunition. Was that your | 0:11:35 | 0:11:39 | |
experience? Absolutely not. I was at
the Whips' Office up to 2015 and, | 0:11:39 | 0:11:45 | |
yes, I heard about the rumours of a
black spreadsheet, and I can | 0:11:45 | 0:11:49 | |
certainly say I never saw such a
thing. How I went about my business | 0:11:49 | 0:11:53 | |
as a whip is really twofold. It is
quite a technical job in many ways, | 0:11:53 | 0:11:57 | |
about of the Government through the
House, working with the House | 0:11:57 | 0:12:03 | |
authorities, the opposition. Also...
Did you ever hear rumours of these | 0:12:03 | 0:12:07 | |
people's bad behaviour? Sorry? Did
you ever hear rumours of MPs | 0:12:07 | 0:12:15 | |
misbehaving, sexual harassment,
allegations are that? If anybody had | 0:12:15 | 0:12:18 | |
brought a complaint to me about the
behaviour of one of the MPs who were | 0:12:18 | 0:12:23 | |
in my flock, I would take that
really seriously, but bull-mac, that | 0:12:23 | 0:12:27 | |
didn't happen. You said nobody
brought you a complaint. Did you | 0:12:27 | 0:12:31 | |
hear rumours? -- but no, that didn't
happen. About the members of my | 0:12:31 | 0:12:37 | |
flock? Absolutely not. Is that the
MPs you were specifically in charge | 0:12:37 | 0:12:41 | |
of? I did not have that experience
at all. Let's move on and talk about | 0:12:41 | 0:12:47 | |
the Home Secretary's trip to
Washington this week, where she will | 0:12:47 | 0:12:51 | |
urge tech companies to go further
and faster on online child abuse. We | 0:12:51 | 0:12:54 | |
have heard a lot from this
Government urging these companies to | 0:12:54 | 0:12:58 | |
do something. One specific ideas of
what they could do, do you have a | 0:12:58 | 0:13:02 | |
clear idea of what you are asking
from tech companies? Absolutely | 0:13:02 | 0:13:05 | |
right. As you know, this horrendous
crime of child sexual exploitation | 0:13:05 | 0:13:11 | |
and grooming is constantly evolving
as the opportunities for the | 0:13:11 | 0:13:16 | |
perpetrators arise. They are now
using live streaming, different | 0:13:16 | 0:13:20 | |
sorts of platforms, which are
largely controlled by the big | 0:13:20 | 0:13:25 | |
companies in America. What we really
want them to do is to step up and | 0:13:25 | 0:13:29 | |
use their huge expertise, used the
huge money they have got, to help | 0:13:29 | 0:13:34 | |
find technological solutions to read
their sites and rid the opportunity | 0:13:34 | 0:13:39 | |
of these paedophiles to be able to
groom young people. We need the | 0:13:39 | 0:13:42 | |
politicians in America to exert
pressure, as well as other | 0:13:42 | 0:13:49 | |
companies, because these are global
problems. We are not going to solve | 0:13:49 | 0:13:52 | |
this problem in the UK alone. We
have made a lot of progress, working | 0:13:52 | 0:13:56 | |
with Facebook and other companies as
well, but we really need to keep one | 0:13:56 | 0:14:00 | |
step ahead of the technology, one
step ahead of the perpetrators, who | 0:14:00 | 0:14:05 | |
are using these opportunities to
commit horrendous crimes. | 0:14:05 | 0:14:10 | |
It was back in 2014 Theresa May for
the Internet companies to do more in | 0:14:10 | 0:14:15 | |
terms of child abuse online and we
have not seen significant action, | 0:14:15 | 0:14:19 | |
and it does not appear these kind of
calls from the Government actually | 0:14:19 | 0:14:22 | |
make difference.
Well, at the moment we are seeing | 0:14:22 | 0:14:27 | |
the police being able to make about
400 arrests per month, about 500 | 0:14:27 | 0:14:32 | |
children being safeguarded. The
Government itself is investing a lot | 0:14:32 | 0:14:36 | |
of money in new technology like the
project Arachnid, and making sure | 0:14:36 | 0:14:42 | |
the police have the specialist
resources they need to go | 0:14:42 | 0:14:46 | |
undercover, and absolutely find
these perpetrators and bring them to | 0:14:46 | 0:14:48 | |
justice, but we do need to
constantly have the engagement and | 0:14:48 | 0:14:51 | |
support of the companies themselves
to invest in further technologies to | 0:14:51 | 0:14:56 | |
prevent this from happening. As you
say, we have made progress but we | 0:14:56 | 0:14:59 | |
need to see yet more. Sarah Newton,
thank you very much for speaking to | 0:14:59 | 0:15:04 | |
us today. | 0:15:04 | 0:15:06 | |
Michael Fallon's decision
to resign this week, | 0:15:06 | 0:15:08 | |
saying his past conduct with women
fell short of the standard expected | 0:15:08 | 0:15:13 | |
of the Armed Forces, led
to something of a minor reshuffle. | 0:15:13 | 0:15:15 | |
And the Prime Minister took
Westminster by surprise | 0:15:15 | 0:15:17 | |
when she announced his replacement,
former Chief Whip and relative | 0:15:17 | 0:15:19 | |
newcomer to the ministerial
ranks, Gavin Williamson. | 0:15:19 | 0:15:21 | |
Here he is speaking on the day
of his appointment. | 0:15:21 | 0:15:26 | |
It's an immense privilege to have
been appointed Secretary | 0:15:26 | 0:15:28 | |
of State for Defence,
and what we need to be doing | 0:15:28 | 0:15:31 | |
is continuing to focus
on countering Daesh, | 0:15:31 | 0:15:33 | |
making sure that our national
security is at the forefront | 0:15:33 | 0:15:35 | |
of everything that we do,
and we have some of the world's | 0:15:35 | 0:15:38 | |
greatest armed services,
and it's such a privilege to be able | 0:15:38 | 0:15:41 | |
to work with them. | 0:15:41 | 0:15:47 | |
Gavin Williamson, who you saw there,
arrives at the Ministry of Defence | 0:15:47 | 0:15:50 | |
at a challenging time
for UK defence. | 0:15:50 | 0:15:52 | |
The Government has promised
an above-inflation increase | 0:15:52 | 0:15:53 | |
in spending every year
but the Ministry of Defence | 0:15:53 | 0:15:56 | |
is already committed to finding
£20 billion of savings | 0:15:56 | 0:15:58 | |
over the next ten years. | 0:15:58 | 0:15:59 | |
The Cabinet Office is currently
conducting a security review | 0:15:59 | 0:16:01 | |
which will look at military
capabilities and funding up to 2022, | 0:16:01 | 0:16:04 | |
while there are continuing
reports of shortages | 0:16:04 | 0:16:05 | |
of manpower and equipment. | 0:16:05 | 0:16:10 | |
And if Labour were to win power,
questions persist over | 0:16:10 | 0:16:13 | |
what a Jeremy Corbyn premiership
would mean for defence budget | 0:16:13 | 0:16:15 | |
and the traditional cornerstones
of UK defence policy | 0:16:15 | 0:16:17 | |
like Trident and Nato. | 0:16:17 | 0:16:18 | |
Well we're joined now
by the Shadow Defence | 0:16:18 | 0:16:20 | |
secretary, Nia Griffith. | 0:16:20 | 0:16:23 | |
Well we're joined now
by the Shadow Defence | 0:16:23 | 0:16:25 | |
secretary, Nia Griffith. | 0:16:25 | 0:16:31 | |
Let's talk about defence spending
first. Would Labour commit to the | 0:16:31 | 0:16:36 | |
same thing this Government has which
is an above inflation increase in | 0:16:36 | 0:16:39 | |
spending every year? We've been
absolutely clear about that. First | 0:16:39 | 0:16:43 | |
and foremost we'd meet our
commitment of spending at least 2% | 0:16:43 | 0:16:49 | |
of GDP on defence as is our Nato
commitment and we would match the | 0:16:49 | 0:16:55 | |
Government's year-on-year 0.5%
increase above inflation. This is | 0:16:55 | 0:16:58 | |
really important. Labour's always
had a good strong track record of | 0:16:58 | 0:17:01 | |
spending on defence. Jeremy Corbyn
seems to have a different view. | 0:17:01 | 0:17:05 | |
Speaking at a protest in 2010 he
said Labour wanted to fight all the | 0:17:05 | 0:17:10 | |
cuts except those in the Armed
Forces where we want to see a few | 0:17:10 | 0:17:14 | |
more cuts taking place. He doesn't
seem committed to defence spending? | 0:17:14 | 0:17:19 | |
In the manifesto for this year's
election, 2017, he and John | 0:17:19 | 0:17:24 | |
McDonnell have been absolutely clear
we support the exact words I've been | 0:17:24 | 0:17:27 | |
using now, at least 2% of the spend
of GDP spent on defence. Jeremy | 0:17:27 | 0:17:33 | |
Corbyn's changed his mind on that?
He's been very clear about that and | 0:17:33 | 0:17:37 | |
it was in our manifesto this year.
You criticised the Government on | 0:17:37 | 0:17:42 | |
whether they meet their 2%
commitment on defence. You saying | 0:17:42 | 0:17:48 | |
they were fiddling the figures
because they were including | 0:17:48 | 0:17:50 | |
pensions. You would strip that out
and snake sure there's 2% spending | 0:17:50 | 0:17:56 | |
on defence which doesn't include
pensions? Technically, the | 0:17:56 | 0:17:59 | |
Government would argue you are
allowed to include pensions by the | 0:17:59 | 0:18:01 | |
Nato rules. But we've been very
clear, really, when you're talking | 0:18:01 | 0:18:07 | |
about defence spending it should
mean defence. When you look at the | 0:18:07 | 0:18:11 | |
last year of the Labour Government
we spent 2.5% GDP on defence. We are | 0:18:11 | 0:18:17 | |
very much committed to looking at
what we need in our defence budget | 0:18:17 | 0:18:22 | |
and looking to the problems they
have now where they can't meet the | 0:18:22 | 0:18:26 | |
commitments they've made. You would
sprip pensions out of those figures. | 0:18:26 | 0:18:31 | |
In order to live up to these
commitments you have to find an | 0:18:31 | 0:18:36 | |
extra billion for the defence
budgets because we're not | 0:18:36 | 0:18:40 | |
calculating pensions anymore? John
McDonnell is well aware of what they | 0:18:40 | 0:18:44 | |
are doing. Putting in the conflict
resolution money which Gordon Brown | 0:18:44 | 0:18:48 | |
kept separate. He is well aware of
the figures and the difficulties. We | 0:18:48 | 0:18:53 | |
are certainly very committed to a
defence budget that really does make | 0:18:53 | 0:18:57 | |
a difference. I'm not clear whether
you're telling me it will be 2% 69 | 0:18:57 | 0:19:02 | |
spending, excluding pensions? We
want it to be 2% of GDP as in the | 0:19:02 | 0:19:08 | |
way Labour always calculate it had
up until 2010, not including | 0:19:08 | 0:19:12 | |
pensions. A significant increase in
military spending? We are talking | 0:19:12 | 0:19:17 | |
about making sure the spending we
need is there because, at the | 0:19:17 | 0:19:21 | |
current situation, we have with the
current Government, they are | 0:19:21 | 0:19:24 | |
overstretched. Even the very caution
National Audit Office says they are | 0:19:24 | 0:19:30 | |
at immense risk of not being able to
meet the expenditure commitment the | 0:19:30 | 0:19:35 | |
they have made. Others talk about a
black hole. You mentioned it that | 0:19:35 | 0:19:40 | |
£20 billion. There is a real issue
we have to address. To you know what | 0:19:40 | 0:19:47 | |
it will cost, how muchedingsal funds
will have to be found? We have to | 0:19:47 | 0:19:52 | |
rook at what are the needs at the
time as well as the facts we want to | 0:19:52 | 0:19:57 | |
make that 2% commitment not
including things which have just | 0:19:57 | 0:20:01 | |
been brushed in now by the
Conservative Government. Let's move | 0:20:01 | 0:20:05 | |
on to a different aspect of defence.
There is a treaty banning nuclear | 0:20:05 | 0:20:11 | |
weapons opened at the UN for
signatories. 122 countries have | 0:20:11 | 0:20:15 | |
already signed it. Would an incoming
Labour Government sign that treaty? | 0:20:15 | 0:20:20 | |
The important point here is there
was an Is inned opportunity for | 0:20:20 | 0:20:23 | |
there to be observers from the UK.
There should have been at that | 0:20:23 | 0:20:28 | |
treaty talks. That doesn't change
the calculation whether or not an | 0:20:28 | 0:20:34 | |
incoming Labour Government would
sign that treaty? We are committed | 0:20:34 | 0:20:40 | |
to a strong multi-lateral disarming
programme. That's what we've seen | 0:20:40 | 0:20:45 | |
missing. This is a multilateral
approach to try to get rid of | 0:20:45 | 0:20:49 | |
nuclear weapons. What you say you
want. Would a Labour Government sign | 0:20:49 | 0:20:54 | |
that treaty? You we have to look at
how you go about things. We need toe | 0:20:54 | 0:20:58 | |
somebody clear we want to
de-escalate tensions across the | 0:20:58 | 0:21:01 | |
world. Work with other nuclear
partners to help stop the | 0:21:01 | 0:21:06 | |
proliferation of nuclear weapons. We
want to work with those countries | 0:21:06 | 0:21:10 | |
who feel very strongly about the
treaty so we can work together. We | 0:21:10 | 0:21:15 | |
have to do that in a multilateral
framework. This is a multi-lateral | 0:21:15 | 0:21:22 | |
disarmament framework. Under the
auspice Is of the UN disto see how | 0:21:22 | 0:21:26 | |
else it could be organised. This is
a great opportunity for you, who | 0:21:26 | 0:21:30 | |
have been a lifelong campaigner for
disarmament.ment Labour Government | 0:21:30 | 0:21:35 | |
will be the first nuclear power to
do so, sign it and lead the way. We | 0:21:35 | 0:21:40 | |
need to use our position to be
responsible and call for responsible | 0:21:40 | 0:21:45 | |
multi-lateral disarmamentment there
was progress made on this in the | 0:21:45 | 0:21:48 | |
eighties and nineties with
considerable amount of are heads put | 0:21:48 | 0:21:51 | |
to one side and destroyed. We need
to get back on the front foot there. | 0:21:51 | 0:21:55 | |
I don't see any presence by the UK
Government at the moment on that | 0:21:55 | 0:21:58 | |
aagain da. It is not helpful for the
nukes leer nations to be separated | 0:21:58 | 0:22:04 | |
from the non-nuclear nation in the
these debates. That's why I don't | 0:22:04 | 0:22:09 | |
understand why you're not taking the
opportunity to say a Labour | 0:22:09 | 0:22:14 | |
Government would Take The Stand. We
should wok together and we should | 0:22:14 | 0:22:17 | |
use our position as a nuclear power
to work for a multilateral | 0:22:17 | 0:22:22 | |
disarmament programme. You were very
clear in your manifesto that the | 0:22:22 | 0:22:26 | |
Labour Party would keep Trident for
the meantime. Abs will yously. We | 0:22:26 | 0:22:30 | |
know throughout his life, Jeremy
Corbyn's long wanted to get rid of | 0:22:30 | 0:22:33 | |
it. He signed up to the manifesto
saying Trident would stay. Has he | 0:22:33 | 0:22:40 | |
changed his minds? The important
thing is that was a manifesto | 0:22:40 | 0:22:45 | |
Jeremy, John McDonnell's agreed to.
We stood on it in 2017 because that | 0:22:45 | 0:22:49 | |
is the Labour Party position.
Absolutely. I'm asking if the Labour | 0:22:49 | 0:22:54 | |
Leader really believes in that
position? He believes in democracy | 0:22:54 | 0:22:57 | |
in the party. That is the Labour
Party position. I don't see that | 0:22:57 | 0:23:00 | |
position changing at all. He has
said very clearly that he accepts | 0:23:00 | 0:23:04 | |
that is our Labour Party position.
And that is the manifesto we've | 0:23:04 | 0:23:09 | |
stood on and will continue to stand
on. I'll need to ask questions about | 0:23:09 | 0:23:13 | |
sexual harassment in Westminster. It
is as much as inissue for the Labour | 0:23:13 | 0:23:18 | |
Party as the Conservative. It was
not clear listening to Dawn Butler, | 0:23:18 | 0:23:22 | |
your colleague on The Andrew Marr
Show this morning, she was asked | 0:23:22 | 0:23:25 | |
whether or not the leadership knew
about allegations by Kelvin Hopkins. | 0:23:25 | 0:23:30 | |
Do you know? I absolutely do not
know at this moment in time. That's | 0:23:30 | 0:23:34 | |
why there has to be an
investigation. It is extremely | 0:23:34 | 0:23:36 | |
important to find out what the
allegations were, exactly what | 0:23:36 | 0:23:41 | |
happened, who was told and who told
what to whom. Then we will be in a | 0:23:41 | 0:23:46 | |
position to see what the situation
is. In the meantime, Kelvin Hopkins | 0:23:46 | 0:23:51 | |
has been suspended which is the
cricket thing to do. Rosie Winterton | 0:23:51 | 0:23:57 | |
has been outspoken about what she
let the leadership know. If it is | 0:23:57 | 0:24:02 | |
the case the leadership did know
about these allegations should he | 0:24:02 | 0:24:05 | |
have been put into the Shadow
Cabinet? The real question is who | 0:24:05 | 0:24:10 | |
did know what when. But what I'm
asking you is... I am anot going to | 0:24:10 | 0:24:16 | |
speculate whether there was an if or
whatever. We need to know how that | 0:24:16 | 0:24:20 | |
information was transmitted. Was it
put in writing. What it made clear, | 0:24:20 | 0:24:24 | |
who was told what, when. Until we
have a full investigation it would | 0:24:24 | 0:24:28 | |
be inappropriate to comment. What is
absolute lie clear, we need to get | 0:24:28 | 0:24:32 | |
this right for the future. We must
have proper procedures so we deal | 0:24:32 | 0:24:36 | |
with incidents as and when they
occur. And we deal with them | 0:24:36 | 0:24:41 | |
prepperly in a way which gets to the
bottom of the issue and deals with | 0:24:41 | 0:24:44 | |
it properly. Why should anyone have
confidence the Labour Party will | 0:24:44 | 0:24:49 | |
treat issues that seriously when,
firstly there's a question whether | 0:24:49 | 0:24:54 | |
they knew about Kelvin hop kips and
others have been dissuaded from | 0:24:54 | 0:24:58 | |
making complaints. Knots just Bex
Bailey. Monica Lennon said when she | 0:24:58 | 0:25:03 | |
was harassed at a party senior
figures in the Labour Party told her | 0:25:03 | 0:25:08 | |
it was her own fault. It seems as if
there hasn't been a culture within | 0:25:08 | 0:25:15 | |
Labour to make a complaint. That's
why we're having a thorough review | 0:25:15 | 0:25:20 | |
of procedures. We brought in new
procedures in July. We need to | 0:25:20 | 0:25:25 | |
ensure there's a proper helpline
available. We are appointing an | 0:25:25 | 0:25:30 | |
independent organisation which will
deal with allegations first-hand so | 0:25:30 | 0:25:33 | |
nobody has to go to somebody they
think might know other people, be | 0:25:33 | 0:25:36 | |
friends with other people. They can
go somewhere completely confidential | 0:25:36 | 0:25:42 | |
and private. These are often things
you can't want to tell your cross | 0:25:42 | 0:25:46 | |
friends about. We will appoint that
organisation and make sure people | 0:25:46 | 0:25:50 | |
can go there and access to it is
made widely known. It is very, very | 0:25:50 | 0:25:55 | |
important when people come into a
job, they know if anything does | 0:25:55 | 0:25:58 | |
happen, they will be able to
complain. Whether they are ordinary | 0:25:58 | 0:26:02 | |
party members or working in
Westminster. Thank you for talking | 0:26:02 | 0:26:08 | |
to us | 0:26:08 | 0:26:08 | |
For Thank you for talking to us some | 0:26:08 | 0:26:10 | |
on the left of politics, | 0:26:10 | 0:26:12 | |
this weekend wasn't just a chance | 0:26:12 | 0:26:14 | |
to mark the anniversary
of the failed gunpowder | 0:26:14 | 0:26:16 | |
plot here in Britain,
but also events in Russia 100 years | 0:26:16 | 0:26:19 | |
ago, when Bolshevik revolutionaries
led by Lenin seized power | 0:26:19 | 0:26:21 | |
and ushered in seven
decades of Communist rule. | 0:26:21 | 0:26:23 | |
For critics, that's something
to regret, not celebrate. | 0:26:23 | 0:26:25 | |
Elizabeth Glinka went to one event
in London to find out more. | 0:26:25 | 0:26:26 | |
The 7th November 1917. | 0:26:31 | 0:26:33 | |
Red Guards under the leadership
of Vladimir Lenin begin to occupy | 0:26:33 | 0:26:37 | |
Government buildings in Petrograd. | 0:26:37 | 0:26:42 | |
This uprising, known
popularly as Red October | 0:26:42 | 0:26:45 | |
because of the difference
in the Gregorian calendar, | 0:26:45 | 0:26:47 | |
was, in fact, a coup. | 0:26:47 | 0:26:50 | |
The winds of socialist change had
been blowing for some time. | 0:26:50 | 0:26:54 | |
The Tsars had resisted reform
and millions toiled in a state | 0:26:54 | 0:26:59 | |
of almost medieval surfdom. | 0:26:59 | 0:27:02 | |
Then war. | 0:27:02 | 0:27:05 | |
Nearly two million
Russians would die. | 0:27:05 | 0:27:10 | |
The revolution had really begun nine
months earlier in February 1917. | 0:27:10 | 0:27:15 | |
The world's first socialist
republic was declared. | 0:27:15 | 0:27:21 | |
October, well that
was the Bolsheviks | 0:27:21 | 0:27:24 | |
asserting their authority. | 0:27:24 | 0:27:28 | |
A hundred years on, as this
event at the TUC shows, | 0:27:30 | 0:27:33 | |
there's still plenty of people
who want to remember and even | 0:27:33 | 0:27:37 | |
celebrate those momentous events. | 0:27:37 | 0:27:40 | |
Mainly as an event in history, | 0:27:40 | 0:27:43 | |
this is an example of historical
development in action, | 0:27:43 | 0:27:46 | |
the ability of people to club
together and be able to affect | 0:27:46 | 0:27:49 | |
the discourse of history. | 0:27:49 | 0:27:51 | |
It was people's first attempt at
trying to build socialism. | 0:27:51 | 0:27:53 | |
Although there were many terrible
things that happened, | 0:27:53 | 0:27:56 | |
I think we have to try
and draw from experience. | 0:27:56 | 0:27:58 | |
Jeremy Corbyn's close friend
and adviser, Andrew Murray, | 0:27:58 | 0:28:01 | |
was chairing the opening session. | 0:28:01 | 0:28:04 | |
He didn't want to talk to us
but we did manage to speak | 0:28:04 | 0:28:07 | |
to the daughter of one of the most
famous Communists of all time. | 0:28:07 | 0:28:13 | |
TRANSLATION: It's an historic moment | 0:28:13 | 0:28:16 | |
which opened up possibilities
for further changes | 0:28:16 | 0:28:19 | |
and allowed other people
to strive for a different world. | 0:28:19 | 0:28:21 | |
A world, which it seems,
some are still keen to push for. | 0:28:21 | 0:28:25 | |
We're growing, so there is obviously
a positive reflection. | 0:28:25 | 0:28:27 | |
There is a lot of negative
propaganda that comes | 0:28:27 | 0:28:29 | |
from the Cold War period. | 0:28:29 | 0:28:32 | |
It is harder to talk
to older people maybe. | 0:28:32 | 0:28:34 | |
But younger people
are quite receptive. | 0:28:34 | 0:28:36 | |
The events and discussions taking
place here today cover a whole range | 0:28:36 | 0:28:39 | |
of topics from women's
rights to the Third World | 0:28:39 | 0:28:42 | |
and the impact on British socialism. | 0:28:42 | 0:28:44 | |
But there's much less discussion
of the Russian Civil War, | 0:28:44 | 0:28:48 | |
the purges and the political
repression that would come later. | 0:28:48 | 0:28:52 | |
We wanted to have this conference | 0:28:52 | 0:28:55 | |
because we wanted to show it
in a positive light. | 0:28:55 | 0:28:58 | |
Whatever one's view of what happened
to the Soviet Union subsequently | 0:28:58 | 0:29:01 | |
the fact is it is important
to understand the process | 0:29:01 | 0:29:05 | |
of revolutionary change
for its own sake. | 0:29:05 | 0:29:09 | |
Red October would usher
in 70 years of communism. | 0:29:10 | 0:29:13 | |
The proletarite would rise,
find respect and security. | 0:29:13 | 0:29:16 | |
But the suppression of the peoples
of Eastern Europe, the forced labour | 0:29:16 | 0:29:20 | |
camps and the murder of hundreds
of thousands, if not millions | 0:29:20 | 0:29:25 | |
of people, make it difficult
for many to see that revolution | 0:29:25 | 0:29:28 | |
as something to celebrate. | 0:29:28 | 0:29:32 | |
That was Elizabeth Glinka reporting. | 0:29:33 | 0:29:35 | |
So is the centenary
of the Russian Revolution a cause | 0:29:35 | 0:29:38 | |
for celebration, or regret? | 0:29:38 | 0:29:39 | |
Well, to discuss this I'm
joined by former Labour | 0:29:39 | 0:29:41 | |
and Respect MP George Galloway,
and the journalist Peter Hitchens. | 0:29:41 | 0:29:47 | |
Good morning. Let me start with you
George Galloway. Is the October | 0:29:47 | 0:29:52 | |
revolution a cause for celebration?
With the, if not for the October | 0:29:52 | 0:29:56 | |
revolution, we'd been conducting
this interview in German. Though the | 0:29:56 | 0:30:00 | |
truth is this interview wouldn't be
taking place and we probably | 0:30:00 | 0:30:04 | |
wouldn't be alive for a variety of
reasons. The Soviet Union broke the | 0:30:04 | 0:30:11 | |
back of Hitler, as Mr Churchill
often owe pined in Parliament and | 0:30:11 | 0:30:14 | |
elsewhere. If not for the Soviet
Union, Hitler would have ruled. And | 0:30:14 | 0:30:22 | |
his successorsness, perhaps until
now, from Vladivostok all the way to | 0:30:22 | 0:30:28 | |
Portugal. You say we wouldn't be
able to have this discussion. In the | 0:30:28 | 0:30:32 | |
former Soviet Union we couldn't have
this office either? That's also | 0:30:32 | 0:30:34 | |
true. But even the... George will be
able to say, that of course. Even | 0:30:34 | 0:30:42 | |
the sun has spots on its face as
they used to say in the Soviet | 0:30:42 | 0:30:46 | |
Union. There is no doubt tremendous
abrasions, big crimes, a lot of | 0:30:46 | 0:30:55 | |
suffering but, if not for the
transformation, then the Soviet | 0:30:55 | 0:31:05 | |
Union, Russia's GDP increased from
1930 to 190 and the Nazi occupation. | 0:31:05 | 0:31:12 | |
And the strength that defeated
Hitlerism would not have been there. | 0:31:12 | 0:31:19 | |
Peter Hitchens, does it offend you
there are people celebrating 100 | 0:31:19 | 0:31:23 | |
years since the Russian Revolution?
Offend? No, but in the Soviet Union, | 0:31:23 | 0:31:28 | |
in which I lived, you would not have
been able to say it was set up by a | 0:31:28 | 0:31:33 | |
cynical bitch, almost bloodless, but
engineered by the German Imperial | 0:31:33 | 0:31:36 | |
Government using -- a cynical
putsch, almost bloodless. That this | 0:31:36 | 0:31:53 | |
was the inauguration of an immensely
long period of repression, | 0:31:53 | 0:31:58 | |
brutality, secret police,
concentration camps and lies, which | 0:31:58 | 0:32:02 | |
I am likely to have seen come to an
end in my lifetime, and I cannot see | 0:32:02 | 0:32:06 | |
why anybody looking at that
disastrous country where so much | 0:32:06 | 0:32:09 | |
misery was needlessly imposed on so
many people for so long could | 0:32:09 | 0:32:12 | |
possibly celebrate the beginning of
it, which was completely avoidable, | 0:32:12 | 0:32:15 | |
and as I say was truly the result of
the cynical foreign policy and | 0:32:15 | 0:32:21 | |
intelligence operations of the
Imperial German Government is trying | 0:32:21 | 0:32:23 | |
to save it skin... But everyone
including George Galloway | 0:32:23 | 0:32:28 | |
acknowledges the tyranny and terror
that followed. He doesn't. He gives | 0:32:28 | 0:32:33 | |
statistics about GDP but fails to
mention the people murdered in | 0:32:33 | 0:32:35 | |
labour | 0:32:35 | 0:32:42 | |
camp... He was of course formerly a
Trotskyite and sung the praises of | 0:32:42 | 0:32:48 | |
Lenin, which I have not done and
neither have I done today. I have | 0:32:48 | 0:32:53 | |
never been a Communist, unlike Peter
Hitchens, but I do acknowledge and | 0:32:53 | 0:32:57 | |
celebrate that an entirely different
world opened up as a result of the | 0:32:57 | 0:33:01 | |
events in October 19 17. China, you
have just seen their party congress, | 0:33:01 | 0:33:06 | |
decorated with the iconography of
the Bolshevik Revolution, and China | 0:33:06 | 0:33:10 | |
is the most powerful, or soon will
be the most powerful country on the | 0:33:10 | 0:33:14 | |
earth. With one of the most
repressive government? I don't think | 0:33:14 | 0:33:18 | |
that is true. There is repression in
China, but... Enormous repression in | 0:33:18 | 0:33:24 | |
China! How can you possibly argue
there is an? China has taken more | 0:33:24 | 0:33:29 | |
people out of poverty in the last 30
years than any country, resume, | 0:33:29 | 0:33:34 | |
system, ever has -- how can you
possibly argue there is not? All | 0:33:34 | 0:33:38 | |
despots always argue, trying to
distract your attention from the | 0:33:38 | 0:33:42 | |
mountains of skulls behind them,
their supposed economic success, | 0:33:42 | 0:33:46 | |
which generally does not turn out to
be as great as claimed. The Soviet | 0:33:46 | 0:33:49 | |
Union was an enormous pile of rust
by the time I lived there and was a | 0:33:49 | 0:33:54 | |
complete catastrophe. Yes, that is
why it fell down. But we are talking | 0:33:54 | 0:33:59 | |
about the Revolution 100 years ago.
Is it possible to separate the two | 0:33:59 | 0:34:04 | |
events? A popular overthrowing of a | 0:34:04 | 0:34:06 | |
Is it possible to separate the two
government is perhaps different from | 0:34:06 | 0:34:07 | |
the tyranny and terror that
followed. It was not a popular | 0:34:07 | 0:34:12 | |
overthrow. You sure this Eisenstein
propaganda as if it were fact. What | 0:34:12 | 0:34:16 | |
we see was a film made afterwards.
What actually happened was a putsch | 0:34:16 | 0:34:21 | |
in the middle of the night in which
hardly anybody... Nobody has even | 0:34:21 | 0:34:30 | |
mentioned... That German connection,
a rather more important... Nobody | 0:34:30 | 0:34:37 | |
has even mentioned during this year
until now that there was a Russian | 0:34:37 | 0:34:40 | |
Revolution. There were two. The
first one was a genuine uprising, | 0:34:40 | 0:34:46 | |
overthrowing the old regime, and I
think we can all be glad of it. The | 0:34:46 | 0:34:49 | |
second one was a cynical for --
foreign financed putsch and it does | 0:34:49 | 0:34:55 | |
not deserve to be spoken out. Is
that true, and Menshevik revolution | 0:34:55 | 0:34:58 | |
would have done better than a
Bolshevik one? It is not my business | 0:34:58 | 0:35:04 | |
and entirely counterfactual fiction,
if I may... Unlike how you open this | 0:35:04 | 0:35:10 | |
discussion. That is the most
important thing. If not for the | 0:35:10 | 0:35:14 | |
Soviet Union, we wouldn't be here.
Hetmyer might still, and most of the | 0:35:14 | 0:35:21 | |
world, with its allies -- Adolph
Hitler might have won and they make, | 0:35:23 | 0:35:25 | |
and most of the world... The effect
of Bolshevism and coming is on | 0:35:25 | 0:35:30 | |
Europe was colossal. Let's bring it
all a little bit more up-to-date. | 0:35:30 | 0:35:33 | |
You were saying earlier you have | 0:35:33 | 0:35:38 | |
You were saying earlier you have
never been a Leninist, although | 0:35:38 | 0:35:39 | |
Peter Hitchens confesses he was at
one time. Absolutely was a | 0:35:39 | 0:35:45 | |
one time. Absolutely was a
Trotskyist, and now nor the complete | 0:35:45 | 0:35:48 | |
folly of that particular political
disposition. John McDonnell in the | 0:35:48 | 0:35:54 | |
Labour Party openly says he is a
Trotskyist, a Leninist, is that a | 0:35:54 | 0:36:00 | |
problem for the Labour Party? I
would have thought, arts would be | 0:36:00 | 0:36:03 | |
more respected now than he has been
for quite some time as capitalism is | 0:36:03 | 0:36:07 | |
collapsing around our ears. From
2008 the Economist itself, the bible | 0:36:07 | 0:36:14 | |
of capitalism, began to resurrect
Marxist economics and analysis, so I | 0:36:14 | 0:36:18 | |
really don't think it is. Jeremy
Corbyn is not a Marxist. | 0:36:18 | 0:36:24 | |
Corbyn is not a Marxist. It only
took them four years, 54... | 0:36:24 | 0:36:30 | |
took them four years, 54... It is
not that. | 0:36:30 | 0:36:33 | |
not that. I think we are moving into
an era where Governments like the | 0:36:33 | 0:36:38 | |
Chinese Government are making plans,
and are succeeding in implementing | 0:36:38 | 0:36:42 | |
them, and thus transforming their
position. | 0:36:42 | 0:36:46 | |
position. China in 1949, and I don't
need to tell you, was just about the | 0:36:46 | 0:36:50 | |
most backward place you could
possibly imagine. | 0:36:50 | 0:36:55 | |
possibly imagine. And from 1949 to
now it has sold transforms that it | 0:36:55 | 0:36:58 | |
is the world's biggest economy... | 0:36:58 | 0:37:01 | |
is the world's biggest economy... We
are in danger of | 0:37:01 | 0:37:05 | |
are in danger of getting sidetracked
by China here. I have to put this | 0:37:05 | 0:37:08 | |
point in. If China was backward in
1949 it was far more backward by the | 0:37:08 | 0:37:13 | |
time Mao Zedong finished his great
leap forward and starved millions of | 0:37:13 | 0:37:16 | |
people to death in the period of
economic lunacy. | 0:37:16 | 0:37:21 | |
economic lunacy. You just don't
notice... What George was saying | 0:37:21 | 0:37:24 | |
they are, and a sense certainly
amongst younger voters in this | 0:37:24 | 0:37:28 | |
country and others, where they are
turning against capitalism, they | 0:37:28 | 0:37:30 | |
don't think it has worked or
delivered for them, that this kind | 0:37:30 | 0:37:34 | |
of Marxist Leninist philosophy is
becoming more popular? Let's hope | 0:37:34 | 0:37:38 | |
not. The fact the current system is
failing does not seem to recommend | 0:37:38 | 0:37:42 | |
the Soviet system, which is | 0:37:42 | 0:37:46 | |
the Soviet system, which is
demonstrably a failure, and even its | 0:37:46 | 0:37:47 | |
own leaders admitted it failed and
that is why they tried to reform it | 0:37:47 | 0:37:51 | |
in the period I was there and why it
collapsed. Whatever you might want | 0:37:51 | 0:37:54 | |
to conclude from examining our
position, the Soviet alternative is | 0:37:54 | 0:37:57 | |
not the thing you want the dues.
This was a long period of disaster, | 0:37:57 | 0:38:00 | |
and I remember at the end of it
watching in Moscow said a film which | 0:38:00 | 0:38:05 | |
has never been shown | 0:38:05 | 0:38:09 | |
has never been shown here, and the
title means approximately we can't | 0:38:09 | 0:38:11 | |
go on living like this, and for the
first time, the politburo told the | 0:38:11 | 0:38:17 | |
truth about what life was like in
the dreadful place and everyone in | 0:38:17 | 0:38:19 | |
that cinema was weeping because
finally they saw the truth being | 0:38:19 | 0:38:22 | |
told about the dreadful
anti-civilisation in which they had | 0:38:22 | 0:38:25 | |
been taught to live for so long. The
idea we should celebrate it revive | 0:38:25 | 0:38:29 | |
it seems to me to be verging on the
obscene. | 0:38:29 | 0:38:33 | |
obscene. George, one interesting
question about this of course, | 0:38:33 | 0:38:37 | |
whilst there are events going on in
London and across the UK to mark | 0:38:37 | 0:38:40 | |
this centenary, it is not being
celebrated in Russia. I was in | 0:38:40 | 0:38:43 | |
Russia a couple of weeks ago. There
is a big debate about whether it | 0:38:43 | 0:38:47 | |
ought to be, and many people are
celebrating it... Vladimir Putin is | 0:38:47 | 0:38:52 | |
not. He would want to ignore it. But
the Communist Party is the second | 0:38:52 | 0:38:55 | |
biggest party in Russia. | 0:38:55 | 0:38:58 | |
biggest party in Russia. And it is
the ruling party in China, which, | 0:38:58 | 0:39:02 | |
with respect, is not a separate
thing, because China is continuing | 0:39:02 | 0:39:06 | |
the Russian Revolution and doing
rather better at it than the | 0:39:06 | 0:39:09 | |
Russians did, but there are | 0:39:09 | 0:39:12 | |
Russians did, but there are many
people, particularly older, that is | 0:39:12 | 0:39:14 | |
true, who think that the era of the
Soviet Union was better than the | 0:39:14 | 0:39:20 | |
Soviet Union was better than the
very cold period of capitalism that | 0:39:20 | 0:39:22 | |
succeeded it. So half | 0:39:22 | 0:39:24 | |
succeeded it. So half the world
followed for a | 0:39:24 | 0:39:28 | |
followed for a time the red flag,
the red | 0:39:28 | 0:39:32 | |
the red banner of Leninism. No one
will do so again. | 0:39:32 | 0:39:36 | |
will do so again. Leninism of the
kind that Peter used to proselytise | 0:39:36 | 0:39:38 | |
is certainly not coming back, but
Marxism is going to live on. Let's | 0:39:38 | 0:39:43 | |
hope not. Thank you both, gentlemen,
for coming on to | 0:39:43 | 0:39:47 | |
It's coming up to 11.40am. | 0:39:47 | 0:39:48 | |
Good morning and welcome
to Sunday Politics Scotland. | 0:39:54 | 0:39:56 | |
Coming up on the programme... | 0:39:56 | 0:40:00 | |
What should Holyrood do
about sexual harassment claims, | 0:40:00 | 0:40:04 | |
after MSP Monica Lennon makes
allegations of sexual assault | 0:40:04 | 0:40:06 | |
and last night's resignation | 0:40:06 | 0:40:07 | |
of the Government
minister Mark McDonald? | 0:40:07 | 0:40:10 | |
Scottish Labour
will have a new leader in place | 0:40:10 | 0:40:13 | |
in two weeks' time. | 0:40:13 | 0:40:14 | |
I'll be speaking to the
two candidates Anas Sarwar | 0:40:14 | 0:40:16 | |
and Richard Leonard about why
they want the job. | 0:40:16 | 0:40:20 | |
And a former adviser
to Donald Trump has said the US | 0:40:20 | 0:40:23 | |
President could support Scottish
independence in a future referendum | 0:40:23 | 0:40:27 | |
but only "if it makes sense". | 0:40:27 | 0:40:30 | |
More claims of sexual harassment
have come to light as a Labour MSP | 0:40:30 | 0:40:35 | |
says she was sexually assaulted,
and a Scottish Government minister | 0:40:35 | 0:40:42 | |
resigned last night over his past
actions which he now | 0:40:42 | 0:40:44 | |
says were" considered
to be inappropriate". | 0:40:44 | 0:40:46 | |
Our political correspondent
Andrew Kerr has more. | 0:40:46 | 0:40:50 | |
Just bring us to speed with the
latest allegations at Holyrood. Good | 0:40:50 | 0:40:54 | |
morning. Monica Lennon is a rising
star in the Scottish Labour Party. | 0:40:54 | 0:41:01 | |
Before she became an MSP in 2013,
she says she was groped at a Labour | 0:41:01 | 0:41:06 | |
Party event by a senior male
colleague. She made an initial | 0:41:06 | 0:41:12 | |
complaint, but did not follow it
through because she was concerned | 0:41:12 | 0:41:15 | |
she would not be believed. She has
chosen to speak out just now the | 0:41:15 | 0:41:21 | |
highlight that sexism is rife, she
is calling for a change in culture | 0:41:21 | 0:41:25 | |
and so far she is the most senior
Labour politician to make such an | 0:41:25 | 0:41:30 | |
allegation. The Labour Party have
released a statement saying they | 0:41:30 | 0:41:37 | |
take all allegations seriously, we
ask anyone with a complaint to come | 0:41:37 | 0:41:40 | |
forward so allegations can be
investigated. The other big story | 0:41:40 | 0:41:46 | |
was that the SNP MSP Mark McDonald,
the childcare Minister resigned | 0:41:46 | 0:41:51 | |
citing that his behaviour had been
inappropriate and now the First | 0:41:51 | 0:41:56 | |
Minister will have to find a
replacement in due course, we are | 0:41:56 | 0:41:59 | |
told. Another story today as well,
this morning the Sunday Post is | 0:41:59 | 0:42:05 | |
reporting that Willie coffee, was
ported to Holyrood authorities after | 0:42:05 | 0:42:14 | |
a civil servant complained about his
behaviour. The MSP says he does not | 0:42:14 | 0:42:19 | |
recognise the claims about his
behaviour. And it is not just | 0:42:19 | 0:42:23 | |
Holyrood, there is a string of
allegations at Westminster. A whole | 0:42:23 | 0:42:27 | |
string that, the most important one
today I suppose is the fact an | 0:42:27 | 0:42:35 | |
investigation into the first
Secretary of State Damian Green has | 0:42:35 | 0:42:38 | |
been widened out over allegations
that pornography was found on his | 0:42:38 | 0:42:42 | |
office computer back in 2008. He was
an opposition that, the Labour Party | 0:42:42 | 0:42:48 | |
were in Government and their were
Home Office leaks, that is why it | 0:42:48 | 0:42:52 | |
was raided by police. He says the
story is completely untrue and comes | 0:42:52 | 0:42:58 | |
from a tainted and untrustworthy
salt. More allegations about the | 0:42:58 | 0:43:04 | |
former Secretary of State for
Defence Michael Fallon who resigned | 0:43:04 | 0:43:06 | |
juror in the week over his
behaviour, a female journalist says | 0:43:06 | 0:43:11 | |
he lunged at her a number of years
ago, friends of Sir Michael are not | 0:43:11 | 0:43:17 | |
denying the allegation. There are a
number of other stories in the | 0:43:17 | 0:43:21 | |
Sunday papers about Westminster too
numerous to mention. Thank you for | 0:43:21 | 0:43:26 | |
joining us. | 0:43:26 | 0:43:28 | |
We contacted the Scottish Government
this morning for comment about this | 0:43:28 | 0:43:30 | |
issue, but they were unable to put
anyone up for interview | 0:43:30 | 0:43:33 | |
on the programme. | 0:43:33 | 0:43:34 | |
Now, there are only two weeks left
in the Labour leadership contest | 0:43:34 | 0:43:40 | |
and both candidates have been
slugging it out over policy matters | 0:43:40 | 0:43:42 | |
in order to win members' votes. | 0:43:42 | 0:43:45 | |
We'll be asking them about their
claims to lead in a moment. | 0:43:45 | 0:43:48 | |
However, this morning
MSP Monica Lennon has made a fresh | 0:43:48 | 0:43:51 | |
allegation of sexual assault,
which she claimed was reported | 0:43:51 | 0:43:53 | |
to the party but she then decided
not to take it further | 0:43:53 | 0:43:56 | |
because she felt she
would not be believed. | 0:43:56 | 0:43:58 | |
Well, Anas Sarwar and Richard
Leonard are in the studio now. | 0:43:58 | 0:44:00 | |
Welcome to you both. | 0:44:00 | 0:44:07 | |
Just on this whole issue, Anas
Sarwar, of sexual harassment. The | 0:44:07 | 0:44:12 | |
allegations are reported from Monica
Lennon but also from other people in | 0:44:12 | 0:44:18 | |
the Labour Party. There is a culture
within Labour where they feel they | 0:44:18 | 0:44:24 | |
cannot come forward to complain,
that they are, if they do mention | 0:44:24 | 0:44:30 | |
it, it is trivialised and they are
made fun of. This is not good, is | 0:44:30 | 0:44:35 | |
there are a serious problem and what
should be done? Monica Lennon is a | 0:44:35 | 0:44:40 | |
colleague and friend of both Richard
and I and I believe both of those | 0:44:40 | 0:44:44 | |
would be distressed to read the news
this morning. The reality is this is | 0:44:44 | 0:44:49 | |
not an isolated case within the
Labour Party, sadly wherever there | 0:44:49 | 0:44:53 | |
are those who think they have a
perceived position of power, they | 0:44:53 | 0:44:57 | |
abuse it, that is happening within
political parties and in our | 0:44:57 | 0:45:01 | |
Parliament and probably happening in
workplaces across the country. What | 0:45:01 | 0:45:05 | |
we have to do is try and create the
space for a woman to be able to come | 0:45:05 | 0:45:10 | |
forward and speak if they wish to do
so, not forced to, but if they wish | 0:45:10 | 0:45:15 | |
to do so, create safe spaces for
that. This culture of people abusing | 0:45:15 | 0:45:24 | |
their position of power is
unacceptable, unacceptable many | 0:45:24 | 0:45:32 | |
years ago and it is unacceptable
now. That is why ministers may say | 0:45:32 | 0:45:37 | |
it was OK in the past, but not now.
The fact is that that safe space to | 0:45:37 | 0:45:43 | |
come forward and be taken seriously,
people like Monica Lennon and others | 0:45:43 | 0:45:49 | |
do not feel there is a culture in
the Labour Party where they can do | 0:45:49 | 0:45:53 | |
that. That is something we need to
fix. I am somebody who strongly | 0:45:53 | 0:45:58 | |
supports the idea of an independent
channel that people can go down so | 0:45:58 | 0:46:02 | |
they are not speaking to people
where there may be a perceived or | 0:46:02 | 0:46:07 | |
actual conflict of interest. I think
what we need to do as the Scottish | 0:46:07 | 0:46:11 | |
Labour Party is appoint someone of
some standing, perhaps someone with | 0:46:11 | 0:46:16 | |
a background image quality is
campaigning... Someone outside the | 0:46:16 | 0:46:19 | |
Labour Party? Certainly outside the
Parliamentary structures and the | 0:46:19 | 0:46:26 | |
representative structures of the
Labour Party. Someone with an | 0:46:26 | 0:46:30 | |
sufficient independence and a
sufficient standing in the eyes of | 0:46:30 | 0:46:33 | |
both women members and those people
who think they have been wronged. I | 0:46:33 | 0:46:39 | |
think we need to create the space,
and independent space separate from | 0:46:39 | 0:46:44 | |
the current structures of the Labour
Party in order to do that because | 0:46:44 | 0:46:48 | |
the revelations today by Monica
Lennon are appalling. If her story | 0:46:48 | 0:46:55 | |
is that she has complained to the
Labour Party and not felt confident | 0:46:55 | 0:46:59 | |
than to pursue it, that is wrong.
Also there was a culture where she | 0:46:59 | 0:47:05 | |
mentioned it was trivialised, to was
not taken seriously. Other women | 0:47:05 | 0:47:08 | |
have said that as well. And other
women have said that to me recently | 0:47:08 | 0:47:14 | |
and I think we need to act on it, I
do not think we can ignore it, I | 0:47:14 | 0:47:19 | |
think we need to take strident
action. After all, the Labour Party | 0:47:19 | 0:47:24 | |
is founded on the value of equality
and if women do not feel | 0:47:24 | 0:47:27 | |
comfortable, if they feel as if they
are opening themselves up | 0:47:27 | 0:47:32 | |
potentially do this kind of
behaviour, then that is not a | 0:47:32 | 0:47:35 | |
welcoming Labour Party and that is
not a Labour Party we can't | 0:47:35 | 0:47:39 | |
tolerate. We need zero tolerance of
this, and into independent route set | 0:47:39 | 0:47:45 | |
up by the Labour Party and we need
to take action now. You two are | 0:47:45 | 0:47:50 | |
standing against each other, the
voting has started. Anas Sarwar, | 0:47:50 | 0:47:54 | |
give me one policy you have that
Richard Leonard doesn't have that | 0:47:54 | 0:47:59 | |
makes you think people should vote
for you. We are currently facing | 0:47:59 | 0:48:03 | |
austerity right across the country
and we have tax powers in Scotland | 0:48:03 | 0:48:07 | |
to stop austerity but about is why I
want to use the tax powers we have | 0:48:07 | 0:48:11 | |
to create a genuinely progressive
redistribution of tax policy. A | 0:48:11 | 0:48:20 | |
significant tax increase to the 2%.
Richard Leonard once that as well. | 0:48:20 | 0:48:29 | |
Richard Leonard once that as well. I
want to increase tax in the top 2% | 0:48:29 | 0:48:32 | |
which would raise millions of pounds
to fund our Scottish child tax | 0:48:32 | 0:48:37 | |
credit policy and put in new money
into our schools and hospitals. What | 0:48:37 | 0:48:40 | |
is your distinctive policy? We need
a once in a generation debate about | 0:48:40 | 0:48:45 | |
the kind of society we want to
build, the public services we need | 0:48:45 | 0:48:48 | |
and how we will fund that. We need a
debate about our taxation approach. | 0:48:48 | 0:48:57 | |
What I have said which is
distinctive from Anas Mapproach is | 0:48:57 | 0:49:02 | |
we now need to look at a wealth tax
because we live in a society where | 0:49:02 | 0:49:10 | |
the top 1% in Scotland and more
wealth than the bottom 50%. When you | 0:49:10 | 0:49:17 | |
say a wealth tax, what are you
talking about? I am talking about a | 0:49:17 | 0:49:22 | |
1% windfall levy on the wealth of
the top 10% that would bring in a | 0:49:22 | 0:49:30 | |
£3.7 billion into Scottish
expenditure. The Scottish Government | 0:49:30 | 0:49:32 | |
have said it is not within the power
of the Scottish Government, | 0:49:32 | 0:49:37 | |
parliament is to do that. There is a
route to do it through an order of | 0:49:37 | 0:49:41 | |
Council and of the 1998 Scotland act
and I believe this is about | 0:49:41 | 0:49:46 | |
political will, a matter of
creativity, a matter of saying we | 0:49:46 | 0:49:50 | |
cannot go on as we are. Simply
trying to manage our way out of it. | 0:49:50 | 0:49:54 | |
You are saying we should value the
assets of everyone in Scotland and | 0:49:54 | 0:49:59 | |
the top 1% will take 1% of those
assets? | 0:49:59 | 0:50:06 | |
In we value them anyway. Why are you
against that? I am not against that. | 0:50:06 | 0:50:13 | |
The reality is we do not have time
for the debate and we do not have | 0:50:13 | 0:50:18 | |
time for an argument about what is
within the law and not within the | 0:50:18 | 0:50:23 | |
law in the Scottish Government. I
have put forward a plan that will | 0:50:23 | 0:50:27 | |
address and end austerity in a few
weeks' time. Neither of you are | 0:50:27 | 0:50:33 | |
going to be First Minister. In the
next decade. There is a discussion | 0:50:33 | 0:50:40 | |
paper being forehead by the Scottish
Government. We know that. That is | 0:50:40 | 0:50:46 | |
asking for a tax policies. I am
saying that rather than talking | 0:50:46 | 0:50:50 | |
about what we might do in two or
three years' time, I want to end | 0:50:50 | 0:50:56 | |
austerity nine. We will cut tax at
the bottom 50% and increase tax on | 0:50:56 | 0:51:01 | |
the top 2%. Throughout this campaign
supporters of both of you have been | 0:51:01 | 0:51:06 | |
making a big fuss about recruitment
to the Labour Party in order to vote | 0:51:06 | 0:51:09 | |
for you. There have been allegations
on your side, Anas, there have been | 0:51:09 | 0:51:16 | |
separate ballots, there have been
allegations that the Unite union | 0:51:16 | 0:51:19 | |
have been recruiting on your side.
Is it true, Anas, that you sort QC's | 0:51:19 | 0:51:27 | |
advice on the legality of this
election? We raised concerns that | 0:51:27 | 0:51:31 | |
were brought to us by individual
members from one particular union. | 0:51:31 | 0:51:37 | |
But did you get QC's involved? It
was so that we could have... What | 0:51:37 | 0:51:46 | |
did that value? There should be a
level playing field and it should be | 0:51:46 | 0:51:49 | |
the same rule applied right
across... Are you suggesting there | 0:51:49 | 0:51:54 | |
wasn't. We were told that was not
the case and we took it forward. So | 0:51:54 | 0:51:59 | |
you got advice. You are not
suggesting you will act on that. Can | 0:51:59 | 0:52:03 | |
you give us an Guaranty, even if
this result of this election is very | 0:52:03 | 0:52:10 | |
close, you will not challenge it in
the courts? My fundamental issue is | 0:52:10 | 0:52:15 | |
that we want to make sure that
procedure is there. What I want to | 0:52:15 | 0:52:19 | |
see happen is this contest is to be
about the ideas and after this | 0:52:19 | 0:52:26 | |
contest, whoever wins, we unite
behind their leader and get behind | 0:52:26 | 0:52:29 | |
him. So even if there is a narrow
win for Richard Leonard, you will | 0:52:29 | 0:52:35 | |
not challenge in the courts? No, I
will support Richard. And I would | 0:52:35 | 0:52:40 | |
hope that Richard would do the same
back? Would you do that? Is Anas | 0:52:40 | 0:52:46 | |
wins, you will not resort to legal
challenge and accept the result? I | 0:52:46 | 0:52:52 | |
will accept the result. I have put
my faith in the internal Labour | 0:52:52 | 0:52:57 | |
Party process. I think it is a
fairly robust process. Accretions | 0:52:57 | 0:53:02 | |
layer people have been found out
they should not have a ballot, their | 0:53:02 | 0:53:07 | |
names have come to light because the
scrutiny and checks and balances. | 0:53:07 | 0:53:12 | |
The other thing I want to emphasise
is that the growth in membership of | 0:53:12 | 0:53:17 | |
the Labour Party is a good thing. It
is something that I welcome and then | 0:53:17 | 0:53:23 | |
I think Anas welcomes, too. We have
established that no matter what the | 0:53:23 | 0:53:27 | |
result is, both of you will accept
it. That is the case, right? Of | 0:53:27 | 0:53:34 | |
course. I want us to welcome all
members. And any suggestions that | 0:53:34 | 0:53:39 | |
somehow we should racially profiled
the membership, I want people who | 0:53:39 | 0:53:46 | |
trade unionists, not trade
unionists... But you're not | 0:53:46 | 0:53:50 | |
suggesting... There have been
suggestions in the newspaper that | 0:53:50 | 0:53:54 | |
some people feel their membership
has been questioned. I want people | 0:53:54 | 0:53:58 | |
to be welcome from all communities
and every background. You did rather | 0:53:58 | 0:54:04 | |
better in the general election than
perhaps either of you were | 0:54:04 | 0:54:08 | |
expecting. There is a view, Richard
Leonard, that was more to do with | 0:54:08 | 0:54:13 | |
Jeremy Corbyn than anything to do
with anything this Scottish Labour | 0:54:13 | 0:54:18 | |
Party did. Would you subscribed to
that? Largely. We had an opportunity | 0:54:18 | 0:54:24 | |
during the general election which we
messed. To understand that Jeremy | 0:54:24 | 0:54:29 | |
Corbyn was proven to be a principled
and popular leader. And that the | 0:54:29 | 0:54:35 | |
manifesto we stood on which was a
radical manifesto which offered | 0:54:35 | 0:54:38 | |
people a vision of a different kind
of society, was a hopeful vision, | 0:54:38 | 0:54:42 | |
was winning support amongst people.
Within the debate inside Scotland, | 0:54:42 | 0:54:48 | |
we simply smoke about this Scottish
constitutional question. I want to | 0:54:48 | 0:54:53 | |
ask Anas, one of the criticisms of
view is that you were only a year | 0:54:53 | 0:54:58 | |
ago in favour of turfing Jeremy
Corbyn out from the leadership of | 0:54:58 | 0:55:02 | |
the Labour Party. People say how can
you be a leader that represents the | 0:55:02 | 0:55:07 | |
carbon Labour Party that seems to be
making inroads for Labour in | 0:55:07 | 0:55:10 | |
Scotland? -- Jeremy Corbyn. I wanted
him to be Prime Minister. I want | 0:55:10 | 0:55:17 | |
Jeremy Corbyn to be Prime Minister,
but that is not just the only job of | 0:55:17 | 0:55:22 | |
a Scottish leader. We do energise
between the many not the few | 0:55:22 | 0:55:27 | |
manifesto. He made people believe
again that we can return a Labour | 0:55:27 | 0:55:32 | |
government. Let's be honest about
that result in June, we did not win. | 0:55:32 | 0:55:35 | |
We got thrashed, particularly in
Scotland. We did make gains, but at | 0:55:35 | 0:55:42 | |
the same time the Tories ran the
worst campaign in living memory and | 0:55:42 | 0:55:47 | |
needed 300,000 votes in Scotland. We
can only deliver a UK Labour | 0:55:47 | 0:55:52 | |
government and Jeremy Corbyn as
Prime Minister if we have an | 0:55:52 | 0:55:54 | |
effective Labour Party in Scotland.
The other side of this is, Richard | 0:55:54 | 0:56:00 | |
Leonard, this Richard Leonard, he
says he is more ensuring with the | 0:56:00 | 0:56:07 | |
carbon Labour Party. In what way are
you more radical than Anna Sarwar? | 0:56:07 | 0:56:13 | |
-- Jeremy Corbyn Labour Party. I am
in favour of an extension of public | 0:56:13 | 0:56:19 | |
ownership. I am in favour of an
industrial strategy in which the | 0:56:19 | 0:56:26 | |
role of the government is to plan
more in the in the economy, rather | 0:56:26 | 0:56:31 | |
than relying on market forces. I am
in favour of longer term action to | 0:56:31 | 0:56:36 | |
end poverty and doing inequality.
Nor nods from -- more modern nods | 0:56:36 | 0:56:43 | |
from Anas. I do not think we can
have an approach to social security | 0:56:43 | 0:56:49 | |
which is predicated on the
continuation of a low value Scottish | 0:56:49 | 0:56:52 | |
economy. Do you think he does? I
have somebody who has campaigned for | 0:56:52 | 0:56:57 | |
and worked for decent conditions for
people in my entire adult political | 0:56:57 | 0:57:03 | |
life. You have not told me one
radical policy that you have that | 0:57:03 | 0:57:09 | |
Anna Sarwar does not support. I
support the right of working people | 0:57:09 | 0:57:13 | |
to buy an enterprise they working,
if it is put Brazil, are facing | 0:57:13 | 0:57:18 | |
closure. -- Anas Sarwar. I have some
radical policies that Richard does | 0:57:18 | 0:57:26 | |
not agree with, the Scottish Child
tax credit to remove more children | 0:57:26 | 0:57:36 | |
out of poverty. | 0:57:36 | 0:57:42 | |
out of poverty. 300,000 jobs are
directly linked to membership of the | 0:57:42 | 0:57:47 | |
single market and the customs union.
I am going to talk about you live in | 0:57:47 | 0:57:53 | |
a moment. One of the allegations you
have not had your moment to seek in | 0:57:53 | 0:57:58 | |
this campaign, you have given up
your shareholding in your family | 0:57:58 | 0:58:01 | |
firm. What would you say to members
watching this and wondering which | 0:58:01 | 0:58:05 | |
way to vote, you wear a big
shareholder in your family firm | 0:58:05 | 0:58:08 | |
which does not, it does not pay the
real living wage in Scotland, but | 0:58:08 | 0:58:15 | |
does not really recognise trade
unions. You had an opportunity to | 0:58:15 | 0:58:19 | |
influence that firm to recognise
trade unions. So if you did not do | 0:58:19 | 0:58:24 | |
that as a shareholder, why should we
take seriously what you are saying | 0:58:24 | 0:58:28 | |
no, wanting to promote trade unions
and society more widely? I am glad | 0:58:28 | 0:58:32 | |
you have asked that question. The
reality is that there are trade | 0:58:32 | 0:58:37 | |
union members within the workforce,
what we are talking about here is a | 0:58:37 | 0:58:43 | |
formal trade union recognition.
There is no formal trade union | 0:58:43 | 0:58:48 | |
recognition in that workplace. But I
did not take that company's word for | 0:58:48 | 0:58:55 | |
it. I spoke to the trade union
directly and they also told me that | 0:58:55 | 0:58:59 | |
they had not read Quested
recognition agreement. Hang on a | 0:58:59 | 0:59:05 | |
second, you are saying there is no
formal trade union recognition in | 0:59:05 | 0:59:11 | |
which you are a major shareholder.
What I am saying is when I spoke to | 0:59:11 | 0:59:16 | |
the trade union, they said they had
a good relationship with the | 0:59:16 | 0:59:19 | |
company. And I want to support
further trade union... Your children | 0:59:19 | 0:59:27 | |
go to private school. Pat Rafferty
of the Unite trade union, said how | 0:59:27 | 0:59:33 | |
good to skate -- state schools in
Scotland have two B before Anas | 0:59:33 | 0:59:38 | |
Sarwar will put his children in
those schools? He attacked may | 0:59:38 | 0:59:42 | |
saying that I am trying to break up
the Labour Party and not demonstrate | 0:59:42 | 0:59:46 | |
unity when he did that very thing.
If he thinks attacking my children | 0:59:46 | 0:59:51 | |
on the platform of a conference, I
do not think that is acceptable. | 0:59:51 | 0:59:56 | |
People are not attacking your
children. He is politicising my | 0:59:56 | 0:59:59 | |
children for his own purposes. It is
a choice you are entitled as a | 0:59:59 | 1:00:05 | |
citizen to make. But not as leader
of the Labour Party. The point I | 1:00:05 | 1:00:09 | |
make is this, that is a decision for
myself and my way to make. That is | 1:00:09 | 1:00:14 | |
the decision we made as a couple and
I would hope people would accept her | 1:00:14 | 1:00:19 | |
decision. The important point is we
have 4000 fewer teachers and skills | 1:00:19 | 1:00:25 | |
because of the SNP. We are running
out of time. -- in our schools. | 1:00:25 | 1:00:32 | |
Richard Leonard, do you have a
problem with our staff. Anna Sarwar | 1:00:32 | 1:00:36 | |
is a long-standing member of the
Labour Party, he is someone who | 1:00:36 | 1:00:39 | |
comes from a wealthy family so he
does not have an -- to be in the | 1:00:39 | 1:00:45 | |
position he is in. -- Anas Sarwar. I
am an NHS dentist by profession. Why | 1:00:45 | 1:00:54 | |
shouldn't he do these things? Here
we are in the middle of the ballot | 1:00:54 | 1:01:01 | |
to elect the next leader of the
Scottish Labour Party. I would | 1:01:01 | 1:01:05 | |
rather stand on my own record which
is on the straight Scottish trade | 1:01:05 | 1:01:08 | |
union and Labour... I entered public
office to advance the position of | 1:01:08 | 1:01:20 | |
working people. So when Pat Rafferty
says that about Anas Sarwar, one of | 1:01:20 | 1:01:27 | |
your most prominent supporters, what
would you say to Pat Rafferty, that | 1:01:27 | 1:01:32 | |
is not reasonable? Pat Rafferty has
a mandate from his membership and | 1:01:32 | 1:01:37 | |
will be accountable to his
membership. He is not accountable to | 1:01:37 | 1:01:45 | |
me, is he? But you would be entitled
as leader of the Scottish Labour | 1:01:45 | 1:01:50 | |
Party to make a comment on it. He
offered his own view to his | 1:01:50 | 1:01:54 | |
membership about some of the tests
that they think should apply in | 1:01:54 | 1:01:58 | |
considering who they should fought
for in the ballot. What's Anas | 1:01:58 | 1:02:02 | |
Sarwar is saying it is not
reasonable to question where he | 1:02:02 | 1:02:06 | |
decides to send his children to
school. Pat Rafferty is done that. I | 1:02:06 | 1:02:10 | |
am asking you to say, I agree with
Pat Rafferty or not on saying that. | 1:02:10 | 1:02:17 | |
I do not know of that is an answer.
Europe. You have made the big thing | 1:02:17 | 1:02:22 | |
about how we should stay in the
single market. We cannot stay in the | 1:02:22 | 1:02:26 | |
single market because it is not
Labour Party policy. I have | 1:02:26 | 1:02:31 | |
discussed this with Keir Starmer. It
is not policy to support the single | 1:02:31 | 1:02:39 | |
market. The point I am making is I
am not waiting for permission to see | 1:02:39 | 1:02:43 | |
what I think is in the best interest
of Scotland or the UK. No one voted | 1:02:43 | 1:02:49 | |
to lose their job, no one voted to
make themselves poorer, no one voted | 1:02:49 | 1:02:55 | |
for a turbo-charged austerity, if
you are genuine about protecting | 1:02:55 | 1:02:58 | |
jobs and trade... You can only do
that with permanent membership of | 1:02:58 | 1:03:05 | |
the single market. The point would
be against you which is that, look, | 1:03:05 | 1:03:09 | |
it may be that the Labour Party is
again staying in the single market, | 1:03:09 | 1:03:13 | |
but people in Scotland voted to stay
in Europe. You make a lot of the | 1:03:13 | 1:03:17 | |
thing about being the leader of the
Scottish Labour Party, is it not | 1:03:17 | 1:03:23 | |
better for them to have Anas
Sarwar's position. It is about | 1:03:23 | 1:03:29 | |
access to the single market without
a barrier, without tariff barrier in | 1:03:29 | 1:03:35 | |
particular. That is something I
fully support. I support the defence | 1:03:35 | 1:03:40 | |
of equal rights, I support the need
to protect jobs and defend the | 1:03:40 | 1:03:45 | |
Scottish economy. And I believe
there are ways of doing that without | 1:03:45 | 1:03:51 | |
necessarily having membership of the
single market. | 1:03:51 | 1:04:00 | |
single market. We will have to leave
it there. Thank you both very much | 1:04:00 | 1:04:04 | |
indeed. Thank you for joining us
this morning. | 1:04:04 | 1:04:06 | |
A former adviser to Donald Trump has
suggested the US President | 1:04:06 | 1:04:08 | |
could support Scottish independence
in a future referendum, | 1:04:08 | 1:04:10 | |
but only if it makes economic sense. | 1:04:10 | 1:04:12 | |
Sebastian Gorka, who worked
in the White House until August, | 1:04:12 | 1:04:14 | |
told BBC Scotland that the President
was a "pragmatist". | 1:04:14 | 1:04:16 | |
Our political correspondent,
Glenn Campbell, has more. | 1:04:16 | 1:04:26 | |
America first. Donald Trump made
this promise to the American people | 1:04:26 | 1:04:30 | |
on the day he took office. Earlier,
during the election campaign in | 1:04:30 | 1:04:35 | |
Scotland, he also endorsed Brexit.
People want to see borders. They | 1:04:35 | 1:04:39 | |
don't necessarily want people
pouring into their country. That | 1:04:39 | 1:04:42 | |
they do not know who they are and
where they come from, they have no | 1:04:42 | 1:04:46 | |
idea. I think not only did it win,
but it won buy a bigger margin. What | 1:04:46 | 1:04:53 | |
is behind the President's thinking.
Everything the president does is win | 1:04:53 | 1:04:58 | |
by one word, sovereignty. He
believed nations streets prosper | 1:04:58 | 1:05:01 | |
when they are sovereign. And if you
have a cultural connection, if you | 1:05:01 | 1:05:06 | |
are part of the Judeo Christian
civilisation, whether you are Poland | 1:05:06 | 1:05:10 | |
or the UK or the Scottish nation, we
have connections to. We would like | 1:05:10 | 1:05:15 | |
you to thrive. If we thrive, you
thrive. If Donald Trump is so keen | 1:05:15 | 1:05:22 | |
on sovereignty, mighty back
independence for Scotland in a | 1:05:22 | 1:05:25 | |
future referendum? You have to look
at the nickel and dime at the end of | 1:05:25 | 1:05:29 | |
the way. Does that economic clay
make sense. Is there a future that | 1:05:29 | 1:05:34 | |
is connected to devolution. He is a
pride to most. He is a patriot. This | 1:05:34 | 1:05:38 | |
is a man who left behind billions
and went into an arena where he | 1:05:38 | 1:05:42 | |
would be attacked. His ten-year-old
son would be attacked by the media. | 1:05:42 | 1:05:49 | |
He did not need to do this. So if it
makes sense pragmatically, why would | 1:05:49 | 1:05:53 | |
he not support it. I would not say
he is there, but he is somebody who | 1:05:53 | 1:05:58 | |
looks at the reality, not the
utopia. | 1:05:58 | 1:06:00 | |
We obviously have a deep interest in
making sure that one of the closest | 1:06:04 | 1:06:09 | |
allies that we will ever have
remains strong, robust, United and | 1:06:09 | 1:06:17 | |
an effective partner. In 2014,
President Obama opposed independence | 1:06:17 | 1:06:21 | |
that he was not alone. I would say I
hope it doesn't happen. I do not | 1:06:21 | 1:06:27 | |
have a vote in Scotland, but I hope
it doesn't happen. But at that time, | 1:06:27 | 1:06:30 | |
Donald Trump was more cautious
writing... | 1:06:30 | 1:06:39 | |
writing... Three, two, one. More
recently, you said independence | 1:06:39 | 1:06:44 | |
would be terrible because in his
view Scotland might lose hosting | 1:06:44 | 1:06:47 | |
rights for the apple mac open golf
tournament. He questions the value | 1:06:47 | 1:06:56 | |
of his backing. He was hedging his
bets before the referendum, though | 1:06:56 | 1:07:01 | |
once the decision had been made in
2014, you moved to an opposition | 1:07:01 | 1:07:06 | |
attitude to independence. Is it time
to kiss and make up? The cause of | 1:07:06 | 1:07:12 | |
independence depends on many things.
It depends on having a vision of the | 1:07:12 | 1:07:16 | |
future where you look at how
Scotland is governed and how the | 1:07:16 | 1:07:19 | |
world is governed in a positive and
progressive way. I cannot feel that | 1:07:19 | 1:07:26 | |
Donald Trump would do anything other
than damage that vision by | 1:07:26 | 1:07:29 | |
association, so I think our
relationship with Donald Trump is | 1:07:29 | 1:07:34 | |
the one we have right now. Donald
Trump seems much closer to UK | 1:07:34 | 1:07:40 | |
nationalists than those that want
Scotland to be an independent state. | 1:07:40 | 1:07:45 | |
Thank you. Good evening,
Mississippi. | 1:07:45 | 1:07:49 | |
And our political correspondent
Glenn Campbell has been looking | 1:07:49 | 1:07:51 | |
into the relationship
between the President and Scotland | 1:07:51 | 1:07:53 | |
in the documentary Donald Trump:
Scotland's President, which will be | 1:07:53 | 1:07:56 | |
broadcast on Thursday at 9pm
on BBC One Scotland. | 1:07:56 | 1:07:59 | |
Now, it's time to take
a look at the week ahead. | 1:07:59 | 1:08:04 | |
This week I'm joined by journalist
Kathleen Nutt and Scotland Editor | 1:08:11 | 1:08:14 | |
for The Guardian, Severin Carrell. | 1:08:14 | 1:08:17 | |
Kathleen, a string of allegations
now in Holyrood and Westminster. | 1:08:17 | 1:08:24 | |
Where do we go from here? | 1:08:24 | 1:08:31 | |
Where do we go from here? Gosh, it
is very difficult, I think the | 1:08:31 | 1:08:33 | |
parties are going to have to get on
top of this, I think Richard | 1:08:33 | 1:08:37 | |
Leonard's suggestion of an
independent body set up, a group set | 1:08:37 | 1:08:43 | |
up for women of the party to
investigate women to take their | 1:08:43 | 1:08:49 | |
complaints to be investigated.
Monica Lennon's claim today work | 1:08:49 | 1:08:54 | |
completely shocking, shocking that
they happened and they were | 1:08:54 | 1:08:59 | |
trivialised and shocking she felt
she could not report them. And she's | 1:08:59 | 1:09:03 | |
not the only person in the Labour
Party to have similar allegations, | 1:09:03 | 1:09:07 | |
that there is a culture where you
were basically laughed that if you | 1:09:07 | 1:09:12 | |
mentioned this. What Monica was
referring to was a wider issue in | 1:09:12 | 1:09:20 | |
other parties as well, by the nature
of power and how hierarchies and how | 1:09:20 | 1:09:26 | |
women feel they are marginalised
when it comes to challenging those | 1:09:26 | 1:09:29 | |
kinds of privileges and powers. I am
not sure Richard's proposal would be | 1:09:29 | 1:09:36 | |
a Scottish Labour exercise
appropriate for labour as I | 1:09:36 | 1:09:38 | |
suspected something cultural
throughout the party, UK level also. | 1:09:38 | 1:09:44 | |
An obvious thing would be to take up
Richard Leonard's proposal, but for | 1:09:44 | 1:09:49 | |
all the party. Maybe not a
Parliamentary thing, but maybe each | 1:09:49 | 1:09:54 | |
party do that, and he says that can
be done UK level as well. When I | 1:09:54 | 1:10:00 | |
spoke to Monica Lennon she was
suggesting Holyrood should set up an | 1:10:00 | 1:10:05 | |
investigation to find out what the
extent of this problem is in the | 1:10:05 | 1:10:10 | |
Scottish Parliament and I think
there is also going to be questions | 1:10:10 | 1:10:14 | |
this week about the male dominance
of some of the key organisations and | 1:10:14 | 1:10:22 | |
groups in Holyrood, for example the
corporate body which runs Holyrood, | 1:10:22 | 1:10:27 | |
which at the moment is totally
dominated by men. It does not | 1:10:27 | 1:10:30 | |
surprise you that this should this
be such a problem given this has | 1:10:30 | 1:10:34 | |
been talked about? What is odd about
this is that, it is not art, it is | 1:10:34 | 1:10:43 | |
disappointing, but it has come to
light because of something happening | 1:10:43 | 1:10:47 | |
in LA. I'm not surprised. It is
endemic in society and did not | 1:10:47 | 1:10:57 | |
surprising that it it is in all
workplaces including the Holyrood. I | 1:10:57 | 1:11:03 | |
think women have been emboldened by
the Harvey Weinstein allegation, | 1:11:03 | 1:11:08 | |
they feel they can come forward and
they will be listened to, that | 1:11:08 | 1:11:13 | |
people are taking these claims
seriously. But will they? Well | 1:11:13 | 1:11:18 | |
something fundamental change this
time? Because we have been here | 1:11:18 | 1:11:22 | |
before and if one said, this is a
serious problem and the culture has | 1:11:22 | 1:11:26 | |
to change. Clearly it hasn't. I
think this is a watershed moment | 1:11:26 | 1:11:31 | |
where there is a point where the
power is being reversed because many | 1:11:31 | 1:11:36 | |
women have got the courage to come
forward and speak openly now. There | 1:11:36 | 1:11:42 | |
is a critical mass that has built up
behind this and the Harvey Weinstein | 1:11:42 | 1:11:46 | |
business was a trigger for that.
That is symptomatic of all great | 1:11:46 | 1:11:50 | |
scandals, all great scandals by
definition will simply blow up | 1:11:50 | 1:11:53 | |
because there is the build-up like a
volcano of so much pressure which | 1:11:53 | 1:11:59 | |
needs a way to vent itself. With the
question in Scotland, one of the | 1:11:59 | 1:12:06 | |
problems I have about Richard
Leonard's proposition is all the | 1:12:06 | 1:12:12 | |
parties are going to behave equally
openly and one of the striking | 1:12:12 | 1:12:16 | |
things of the children's minister's
resignation is he was imposed to | 1:12:16 | 1:12:21 | |
five days even be they knew there
were allegations against him and it | 1:12:21 | 1:12:26 | |
has taken five days for action.
Other parties, as soon as there was | 1:12:26 | 1:12:31 | |
allegations against a member of the
party, but person is suspended and | 1:12:31 | 1:12:35 | |
the SNP are behaving differently
from the other parties. I think the | 1:12:35 | 1:12:42 | |
Tory problem is even worse because
it is quite clearly evident there is | 1:12:42 | 1:12:48 | |
information known to the hierarchy
that has not been acted on for a | 1:12:48 | 1:12:51 | |
long period of time. We are almost
out of time. I was looking forward | 1:12:51 | 1:12:55 | |
to asking about your thoughts on the
debate between the possible future | 1:12:55 | 1:13:00 | |
Labour leaders. It will be
interesting to see when the new | 1:13:00 | 1:13:06 | |
leader is announced on the 18th if
they can have some sort of | 1:13:06 | 1:13:12 | |
re-conciliation and move forward. I
think it will be difficult. We | 1:13:12 | 1:13:17 | |
have... Whether the two camps can
carry on their internal feuding is | 1:13:17 | 1:13:22 | |
another matter. I think they
will,... They will continue feuding? | 1:13:22 | 1:13:30 | |
I think they will settle this and
move on. There have been animosity | 1:13:30 | 1:13:34 | |
is bubbling under the surface, but
actually the party's crisis is | 1:13:34 | 1:13:39 | |
deeper whether they agree on party
policy. Thank you both very much | 1:13:39 | 1:13:46 | |
indeed. | 1:13:46 | 1:13:47 |