05/11/2017 Sunday Politics Scotland


05/11/2017

The latest political news, interviews and debate in Scotland.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Good morning, everyone,

and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

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And this is your guide to everything

that's happening in the world

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of politics this Sunday morning.

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On today's show:

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Theresa May's right-hand man

Damian Green has denied claims that

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police found pornography

on a computer in his office in 2008.

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He says the allegations by a former

police chief are "political smears."

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With claims of sexual harassment

at Westminster growing by the day,

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can either Theresa May

or Jeremy Corbyn do anything to get

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to grips with a scandal

threatening to engulf

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the entire political class?

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We'll ask a minister and senior

member of the Shadow Cabinet.

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And some on the left of politics

have been gathering to mark 100

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years since the Russian Revolution,

but was it an event that should be

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And on Sunday Politics Scotland,

more sexual harassment claims come

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to light as a Labour MSP says

she was sexually assaulted

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and a Government minister

is forced to resign.

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So there's plenty of

explosive political news

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to get you in the mood

for bonfire night -

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and with me as usual,

three journalists who know quite

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a bit about parliamentary plots -

if rather less about

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gunpowder and treason.

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It's Tom Newton Dunn,

Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

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So what are the big political

stories making the news this Sunday?

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Well, the papers are brimming

with further allegations against MPs

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in the sexual harassment scandal,

which according to one newspaper has

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left Westminster frozen in fear.

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First Secretary of State Damian

Green, already under

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investigation over allegations -

which he strongly denies -

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of propositioning a female activist,

is the subject of new claims that

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police discovered pornography

on a computer in his Westminster

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office in 2008.

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Mr Green denies the allegation,

made by former senior

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police officer Bob Quick,

saying it is "completely untrue,"

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and adding that he is the victim

of disreputable "political smears."

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Michael Fallon, who resigned

as Defence Secretary this week

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over his past behaviour,

is also subject to fresh claims

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he lunged at a female journalist

in 2003 after a lunch.

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Labour is facing questions

over its handling of sexual

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misconduct allegations.

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This morning Shadow Cabinet minister

Dawn Butler refused to be drawn

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on whether Jeremy Corbyn knew

about alleged misconduct by MP

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Kelvin Hopkins when he was promoted

to the Shadow Cabinet.

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And there is a reminder that normal

political life goes on,

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with reports that the Cabinet has

agreed to put housing at the heart

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of Philip Hammond's upcoming Budget.

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Well, let's hear from

Home Secretary Amber Rudd now -

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she was on the Andrew Marr Show

earlier talking about the claims

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against her Cabinet colleague Damian

Green.

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Absolutely not. I think it is

something that will take place in

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terms of clearing out Westminster of

that sort of behaviour, and I think

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that Westminster afterwards,

including the Government, will be

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better for it. When we are confident

that men and women can work any

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respectful environment and people on

the receiving end of abuse of power

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can come forward. That will be a

positive thing.

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Let's see what our panel make of

this fairly explosive week. Good

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morning to all of you. Starting with

you, Steve. Not a party political

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issue but the Tories are in

Government. How much harder for them

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is it an Labour?

Always harder when

you are in Government because it

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makes governing almost impossible.

And the wider context is a Prime

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Minister who lost her overall

majority a few months ago and

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actually that is the context of

everything. When you are having to

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deal with the scandal of such

unpredictability, where the

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terms are so imprecise, it is a

"lunge", a resignation issue, to use

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that term, and nightmare. I don't

think it is fatal. Scandals rarely

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bring down governments, but it makes

governing for Theresa May a form of

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political health.

Isabel Oakeshott,

Damian Green has denied all

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allegations made against him, but

there are more this morning. He is

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being investigated by the Cabinet

Office at the moment. If Theresa May

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were to effectively lose her Deputy

Prime Minister, has serious without

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the?

I think very serious indeed. I

think it is very significant and

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strange he was not defended in the

Home Secretary Amber Rudd in that

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clip we saw today, she didn't say I

am certain he will survive, and I am

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beginning to feel that Damian may

not survive this. We don't know

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whether it is the last of the

allegations that may come out in

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relation to him. It seems to me that

the allegations were previously of a

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rather minor order, but this seems

to have escalated. And I think one

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of the big problems for Theresa May,

and there are the many at the

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moment, for months we have been

saying that this Government has no

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bandwidth to do anything except

Brexit and right now she can't even

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do Brexit. What is the point of it

all?

It is important to make clear

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not only that Damian Green denies

all of these allegations, but the

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computer mentioned was in a shared

office so there is no reason it

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would definitely be his

# No guarantee it would definitely

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be his. But we have had two MPs on

television this morning, Anna

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Soubry, saying he should stand down.

There is an awful lot going on here.

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It is not just a pretty awful sexual

harassment scandal. There are also

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without a doubt MPs, police

officers, going about settling

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scores. For me I have to say for our

pretty discredited police officer

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Bob Quick, to make accusations

against serving Cabinet minister, to

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suggest he should go for extreme

pornography on computers he may or

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may not have known, it may be

extremely distasteful but it is

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alarming for democracy to have

ex-police officers like this coming

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in and trying to play with

democracy. Some politicians are also

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meeting claims, some for the right

reasons to get the allegations out

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there and so on but others for their

own agendas and all of this puts the

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Prime Minister in an unbelievably

hard situation. I agree with Steve

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and Isabel, she desperately needs

two show leadership in all this, but

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every way she could turn there are

incredible downfalls, people blaming

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her for trying to get to the bottom

of all this. It is very people who

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she is relying on for her

leadership, the very Tory MPs the

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support she can't lose.

It is not

just the Tory party and of course

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Jeremy Corbyn will be making a

speech later today where this will

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inevitably and there are accusations

about how the senior leadership in

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the Labour Party have handled this.

What about that situation?

Yes, but

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the Government is much harder

because you are meant to be doing

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10,000 other things at the same

time. This is about a deregulated

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work environment. For all those who

say, I hate the way Britain is too

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regulated, this is what happens in a

deregulated work environment. The

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House of Commons has no HR or

whatever, MPs, advisors, so, MPs

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actually don't have much power but

they do have power over who the

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point and how to treat them. I think

this is the way forward in terms of

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the practical outcome, but it is

across the political spectrum.

But

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it is unclear what it will be. Can

the party sort this out?

I'm not

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sure I entirely agree, Steve, you

cannot regulate all human

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interaction and a lot of these

stories have been about interactions

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between politicians and journalists

alike, who have gone out for lunch,

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chosen to drink, presumably to

create an informal atmosphere, and

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at what point is a step towards

somebody to say goodbye, a peck on

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the cheek or whatever, a lunge? You

can't regulate that sort of thing.

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Throughout the programme will come

back to some of these things and how

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they might be regulated.

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Now, the Home Secretary has

also today been talking

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about what she calls the "moral

duty" of social media companies

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to stop child sexual exploitation,

ahead of a meeting with her US

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counterparts this week.

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We're joined now by the Home Office

minister Sarah Newton -

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she's in our Truro studio.

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Thanks very much for coming in to

speak the first night. I want to

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talk to you about the Government's

efforts to tackle child pornography,

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but let's pick up on some of the

sexual harassment issues at

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Westminster first. Two of your

parliamentary colleagues this

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morning saying they think the first

Secretary of State Damian Green

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should step down whilst being

investigated. Do you agree?

Look, he

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has vigorously denied these

accusations, and the Cabinet Office

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is investigating these accusations,

so we do have processes for when

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ministers have these accusations

made against them so they are

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properly investigated. And that is

what is going on at the moment.

Is

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that process people can be confident

in? He is effectively being

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investigated by Jeremy Heywood, one

of his colleagues.

This is a tried

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and tested process that has stood

the test of time, and it is

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important...

Has it? Surely what we

are learning is it has not stood the

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test of time and that in fact

allegations like this have been

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swept under the carpet and ignored

for years and years in Westminster,

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exactly what we are learning right

now.

I think you are conflating two

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things they are, and what we really

do need to do is look at the whole

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range of allegations people have

been making, and make sure

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Parliament is a safe place for

people to work, a respectful

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environment for people who have been

subjected to harassment or bullying

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or inappropriate behaviour, so that

they feel confident to come forward

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knowing they will be listened to,

that there will be an open and

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transparent and fair to everyone

concerned process for getting to the

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bottom of it, and that is exactly

what the Prime Minister and the

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Leader of the Cows have set out,

Prime Minister's meeting with all

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the leaders of the parties tomorrow

to set out a proper process so we

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can modernise the work environment

at Westminster -- leader of the

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House have set out.

You think Damian

Green should remain in the Cabinet

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well being investigated?

That will

be down to Sir Jeremy Heywood. If he

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thinks the misdemeanours have a

basis, that he should stand aside,

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that will be the recommendation. I

will not second the inquiry on what

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Sir Jeremy Heywood finds.

You were

in the Whips' Office yourself for a

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year. And much has been said this

week of the whips being in receipt

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of a lot of information about bad

behaviour, and instead of reporting

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it to authorities they were using it

as ammunition. Was that your

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experience?

Absolutely not. I was at

the Whips' Office up to 2015 and,

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yes, I heard about the rumours of a

black spreadsheet, and I can

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certainly say I never saw such a

thing. How I went about my business

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as a whip is really twofold. It is

quite a technical job in many ways,

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about of the Government through the

House, working with the House

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authorities, the opposition. Also...

Did you ever hear rumours of these

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people's bad behaviour?

Sorry?

Did

you ever hear rumours of MPs

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misbehaving, sexual harassment,

allegations are that?

If anybody had

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brought a complaint to me about the

behaviour of one of the MPs who were

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in my flock, I would take that

really seriously, but bull-mac, that

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didn't happen.

You said nobody

brought you a complaint. Did you

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hear rumours? -- but no, that didn't

happen.

About the members of my

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flock? Absolutely not.

Is that the

MPs you were specifically in charge

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of?

I did not have that experience

at all.

Let's move on and talk about

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the Home Secretary's trip to

Washington this week, where she will

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urge tech companies to go further

and faster on online child abuse. We

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have heard a lot from this

Government urging these companies to

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do something. One specific ideas of

what they could do, do you have a

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clear idea of what you are asking

from tech companies?

Absolutely

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right. As you know, this horrendous

crime of child sexual exploitation

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and grooming is constantly evolving

as the opportunities for the

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perpetrators arise. They are now

using live streaming, different

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sorts of platforms, which are

largely controlled by the big

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companies in America. What we really

want them to do is to step up and

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use their huge expertise, used the

huge money they have got, to help

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find technological solutions to read

their sites and rid the opportunity

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of these paedophiles to be able to

groom young people. We need the

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politicians in America to exert

pressure, as well as other

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companies, because these are global

problems. We are not going to solve

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this problem in the UK alone. We

have made a lot of progress, working

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with Facebook and other companies as

well, but we really need to keep one

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step ahead of the technology, one

step ahead of the perpetrators, who

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are using these opportunities to

commit horrendous crimes.

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It was back in 2014 Theresa May for

the Internet companies to do more in

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terms of child abuse online and we

have not seen significant action,

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and it does not appear these kind of

calls from the Government actually

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make difference.

Well, at the moment we are seeing

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the police being able to make about

400 arrests per month, about 500

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children being safeguarded. The

Government itself is investing a lot

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of money in new technology like the

project Arachnid, and making sure

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the police have the specialist

resources they need to go

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undercover, and absolutely find

these perpetrators and bring them to

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justice, but we do need to

constantly have the engagement and

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support of the companies themselves

to invest in further technologies to

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prevent this from happening. As you

say, we have made progress but we

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need to see yet more.

Sarah Newton,

thank you very much for speaking to

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us today.

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Michael Fallon's decision

to resign this week,

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saying his past conduct with women

fell short of the standard expected

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of the Armed Forces, led

to something of a minor reshuffle.

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And the Prime Minister took

Westminster by surprise

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when she announced his replacement,

former Chief Whip and relative

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newcomer to the ministerial

ranks, Gavin Williamson.

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Here he is speaking on the day

of his appointment.

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It's an immense privilege to have

been appointed Secretary

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of State for Defence,

and what we need to be doing

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is continuing to focus

on countering Daesh,

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making sure that our national

security is at the forefront

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of everything that we do,

and we have some of the world's

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greatest armed services,

and it's such a privilege to be able

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to work with them.

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Gavin Williamson, who you saw there,

arrives at the Ministry of Defence

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at a challenging time

for UK defence.

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The Government has promised

an above-inflation increase

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in spending every year

but the Ministry of Defence

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is already committed to finding

£20 billion of savings

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over the next ten years.

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The Cabinet Office is currently

conducting a security review

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which will look at military

capabilities and funding up to 2022,

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while there are continuing

reports of shortages

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of manpower and equipment.

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And if Labour were to win power,

questions persist over

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what a Jeremy Corbyn premiership

would mean for defence budget

0:16:130:16:15

and the traditional cornerstones

of UK defence policy

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like Trident and Nato.

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Well we're joined now

by the Shadow Defence

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secretary, Nia Griffith.

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Well we're joined now

by the Shadow Defence

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secretary, Nia Griffith.

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Let's talk about defence spending

first. Would Labour commit to the

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same thing this Government has which

is an above inflation increase in

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spending every year?

We've been

absolutely clear about that. First

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and foremost we'd meet our

commitment of spending at least 2%

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of GDP on defence as is our Nato

commitment and we would match the

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Government's year-on-year 0.5%

increase above inflation. This is

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really important. Labour's always

had a good strong track record of

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spending on defence.

Jeremy Corbyn

seems to have a different view.

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Speaking at a protest in 2010 he

said Labour wanted to fight all the

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cuts except those in the Armed

Forces where we want to see a few

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more cuts taking place. He doesn't

seem committed to defence spending?

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In the manifesto for this year's

election, 2017, he and John

0:17:190:17:24

McDonnell have been absolutely clear

we support the exact words I've been

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using now, at least 2% of the spend

of GDP spent on defence.

Jeremy

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Corbyn's changed his mind on that?

He's been very clear about that and

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it was in our manifesto this year.

You criticised the Government on

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whether they meet their 2%

commitment on defence. You saying

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they were fiddling the figures

because they were including

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pensions. You would strip that out

and snake sure there's 2% spending

0:17:500:17:56

on defence which doesn't include

pensions?

Technically, the

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Government would argue you are

allowed to include pensions by the

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Nato rules. But we've been very

clear, really, when you're talking

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about defence spending it should

mean defence. When you look at the

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last year of the Labour Government

we spent 2.5% GDP on defence. We are

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very much committed to looking at

what we need in our defence budget

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and looking to the problems they

have now where they can't meet the

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commitments they've made.

You would

sprip pensions out of those figures.

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In order to live up to these

commitments you have to find an

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extra billion for the defence

budgets because we're not

0:18:360:18:40

calculating pensions anymore?

John

McDonnell is well aware of what they

0:18:400:18:44

are doing. Putting in the conflict

resolution money which Gordon Brown

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kept separate. He is well aware of

the figures and the difficulties. We

0:18:480:18:53

are certainly very committed to a

defence budget that really does make

0:18:530:18:57

a difference.

I'm not clear whether

you're telling me it will be 2% 69

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spending, excluding pensions?

We

want it to be 2% of GDP as in the

0:19:020:19:08

way Labour always calculate it had

up until 2010, not including

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pensions.

A significant increase in

military spending?

We are talking

0:19:120:19:17

about making sure the spending we

need is there because, at the

0:19:170:19:21

current situation, we have with the

current Government, they are

0:19:210:19:24

overstretched. Even the very caution

National Audit Office says they are

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at immense risk of not being able to

meet the expenditure commitment the

0:19:300:19:35

they have made. Others talk about a

black hole. You mentioned it that

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£20 billion. There is a real issue

we have to address.

To you know what

0:19:400:19:47

it will cost, how muchedingsal funds

will have to be found?

We have to

0:19:470:19:52

rook at what are the needs at the

time as well as the facts we want to

0:19:520:19:57

make that 2% commitment not

including things which have just

0:19:570:20:01

been brushed in now by the

Conservative Government.

Let's move

0:20:010:20:05

on to a different aspect of defence.

There is a treaty banning nuclear

0:20:050:20:11

weapons opened at the UN for

signatories. 122 countries have

0:20:110:20:15

already signed it. Would an incoming

Labour Government sign that treaty?

0:20:150:20:20

The important point here is there

was an Is inned opportunity for

0:20:200:20:23

there to be observers from the UK.

There should have been at that

0:20:230:20:28

treaty talks.

That doesn't change

the calculation whether or not an

0:20:280:20:34

incoming Labour Government would

sign that treaty?

We are committed

0:20:340:20:40

to a strong multi-lateral disarming

programme. That's what we've seen

0:20:400:20:45

missing.

This is a multilateral

approach to try to get rid of

0:20:450:20:49

nuclear weapons. What you say you

want. Would a Labour Government sign

0:20:490:20:54

that treaty?

You we have to look at

how you go about things. We need toe

0:20:540:20:58

somebody clear we want to

de-escalate tensions across the

0:20:580:21:01

world. Work with other nuclear

partners to help stop the

0:21:010:21:06

proliferation of nuclear weapons. We

want to work with those countries

0:21:060:21:10

who feel very strongly about the

treaty so we can work together. We

0:21:100:21:15

have to do that in a multilateral

framework.

This is a multi-lateral

0:21:150:21:22

disarmament framework. Under the

auspice Is of the UN disto see how

0:21:220:21:26

else it could be organised. This is

a great opportunity for you, who

0:21:260:21:30

have been a lifelong campaigner for

disarmament.ment Labour Government

0:21:300:21:35

will be the first nuclear power to

do so, sign it and lead the way.

We

0:21:350:21:40

need to use our position to be

responsible and call for responsible

0:21:400:21:45

multi-lateral disarmamentment there

was progress made on this in the

0:21:450:21:48

eighties and nineties with

considerable amount of are heads put

0:21:480:21:51

to one side and destroyed. We need

to get back on the front foot there.

0:21:510:21:55

I don't see any presence by the UK

Government at the moment on that

0:21:550:21:58

aagain da. It is not helpful for the

nukes leer nations to be separated

0:21:580:22:04

from the non-nuclear nation in the

these debates.

That's why I don't

0:22:040:22:09

understand why you're not taking the

opportunity to say a Labour

0:22:090:22:14

Government would Take The Stand.

We

should wok together and we should

0:22:140:22:17

use our position as a nuclear power

to work for a multilateral

0:22:170:22:22

disarmament programme.

You were very

clear in your manifesto that the

0:22:220:22:26

Labour Party would keep Trident for

the meantime.

Abs will yously.

We

0:22:260:22:30

know throughout his life, Jeremy

Corbyn's long wanted to get rid of

0:22:300:22:33

it. He signed up to the manifesto

saying Trident would stay. Has he

0:22:330:22:40

changed his minds?

The important

thing is that was a manifesto

0:22:400:22:45

Jeremy, John McDonnell's agreed to.

We stood on it in 2017 because that

0:22:450:22:49

is the Labour Party position.

Absolutely. I'm asking if the Labour

0:22:490:22:54

Leader really believes in that

position?

He believes in democracy

0:22:540:22:57

in the party. That is the Labour

Party position. I don't see that

0:22:570:23:00

position changing at all. He has

said very clearly that he accepts

0:23:000:23:04

that is our Labour Party position.

And that is the manifesto we've

0:23:040:23:09

stood on and will continue to stand

on.

I'll need to ask questions about

0:23:090:23:13

sexual harassment in Westminster. It

is as much as inissue for the Labour

0:23:130:23:18

Party as the Conservative. It was

not clear listening to Dawn Butler,

0:23:180:23:22

your colleague on The Andrew Marr

Show this morning, she was asked

0:23:220:23:25

whether or not the leadership knew

about allegations by Kelvin Hopkins.

0:23:250:23:30

Do you know?

I absolutely do not

know at this moment in time. That's

0:23:300:23:34

why there has to be an

investigation. It is extremely

0:23:340:23:36

important to find out what the

allegations were, exactly what

0:23:360:23:41

happened, who was told and who told

what to whom. Then we will be in a

0:23:410:23:46

position to see what the situation

is. In the meantime, Kelvin Hopkins

0:23:460:23:51

has been suspended which is the

cricket thing to do.

Rosie Winterton

0:23:510:23:57

has been outspoken about what she

let the leadership know. If it is

0:23:570:24:02

the case the leadership did know

about these allegations should he

0:24:020:24:05

have been put into the Shadow

Cabinet?

The real question is who

0:24:050:24:10

did know what when.

But what I'm

asking you is...

I am anot going to

0:24:100:24:16

speculate whether there was an if or

whatever. We need to know how that

0:24:160:24:20

information was transmitted. Was it

put in writing. What it made clear,

0:24:200:24:24

who was told what, when. Until we

have a full investigation it would

0:24:240:24:28

be inappropriate to comment. What is

absolute lie clear, we need to get

0:24:280:24:32

this right for the future. We must

have proper procedures so we deal

0:24:320:24:36

with incidents as and when they

occur. And we deal with them

0:24:360:24:41

prepperly in a way which gets to the

bottom of the issue and deals with

0:24:410:24:44

it properly.

Why should anyone have

confidence the Labour Party will

0:24:440:24:49

treat issues that seriously when,

firstly there's a question whether

0:24:490:24:54

they knew about Kelvin hop kips and

others have been dissuaded from

0:24:540:24:58

making complaints. Knots just Bex

Bailey. Monica Lennon said when she

0:24:580:25:03

was harassed at a party senior

figures in the Labour Party told her

0:25:030:25:08

it was her own fault. It seems as if

there hasn't been a culture within

0:25:080:25:15

Labour to make a complaint.

That's

why we're having a thorough review

0:25:150:25:20

of procedures. We brought in new

procedures in July. We need to

0:25:200:25:25

ensure there's a proper helpline

available. We are appointing an

0:25:250:25:30

independent organisation which will

deal with allegations first-hand so

0:25:300:25:33

nobody has to go to somebody they

think might know other people, be

0:25:330:25:36

friends with other people. They can

go somewhere completely confidential

0:25:360:25:42

and private. These are often things

you can't want to tell your cross

0:25:420:25:46

friends about. We will appoint that

organisation and make sure people

0:25:460:25:50

can go there and access to it is

made widely known. It is very, very

0:25:500:25:55

important when people come into a

job, they know if anything does

0:25:550:25:58

happen, they will be able to

complain. Whether they are ordinary

0:25:580:26:02

party members or working in

Westminster.

Thank you for talking

0:26:020:26:08

to us

0:26:080:26:08

For Thank you for talking to us some

0:26:080:26:10

on the left of politics,

0:26:100:26:12

this weekend wasn't just a chance

0:26:120:26:14

to mark the anniversary

of the failed gunpowder

0:26:140:26:16

plot here in Britain,

but also events in Russia 100 years

0:26:160:26:19

ago, when Bolshevik revolutionaries

led by Lenin seized power

0:26:190:26:21

and ushered in seven

decades of Communist rule.

0:26:210:26:23

For critics, that's something

to regret, not celebrate.

0:26:230:26:25

Elizabeth Glinka went to one event

in London to find out more.

0:26:250:26:26

The 7th November 1917.

0:26:310:26:33

Red Guards under the leadership

of Vladimir Lenin begin to occupy

0:26:330:26:37

Government buildings in Petrograd.

0:26:370:26:42

This uprising, known

popularly as Red October

0:26:420:26:45

because of the difference

in the Gregorian calendar,

0:26:450:26:47

was, in fact, a coup.

0:26:470:26:50

The winds of socialist change had

been blowing for some time.

0:26:500:26:54

The Tsars had resisted reform

and millions toiled in a state

0:26:540:26:59

of almost medieval surfdom.

0:26:590:27:02

Then war.

0:27:020:27:05

Nearly two million

Russians would die.

0:27:050:27:10

The revolution had really begun nine

months earlier in February 1917.

0:27:100:27:15

The world's first socialist

republic was declared.

0:27:150:27:21

October, well that

was the Bolsheviks

0:27:210:27:24

asserting their authority.

0:27:240:27:28

A hundred years on, as this

event at the TUC shows,

0:27:300:27:33

there's still plenty of people

who want to remember and even

0:27:330:27:37

celebrate those momentous events.

0:27:370:27:40

Mainly as an event in history,

0:27:400:27:43

this is an example of historical

development in action,

0:27:430:27:46

the ability of people to club

together and be able to affect

0:27:460:27:49

the discourse of history.

0:27:490:27:51

It was people's first attempt at

trying to build socialism.

0:27:510:27:53

Although there were many terrible

things that happened,

0:27:530:27:56

I think we have to try

and draw from experience.

0:27:560:27:58

Jeremy Corbyn's close friend

and adviser, Andrew Murray,

0:27:580:28:01

was chairing the opening session.

0:28:010:28:04

He didn't want to talk to us

but we did manage to speak

0:28:040:28:07

to the daughter of one of the most

famous Communists of all time.

0:28:070:28:13

TRANSLATION:

It's an historic moment

0:28:130:28:16

which opened up possibilities

for further changes

0:28:160:28:19

and allowed other people

to strive for a different world.

0:28:190:28:21

A world, which it seems,

some are still keen to push for.

0:28:210:28:25

We're growing, so there is obviously

a positive reflection.

0:28:250:28:27

There is a lot of negative

propaganda that comes

0:28:270:28:29

from the Cold War period.

0:28:290:28:32

It is harder to talk

to older people maybe.

0:28:320:28:34

But younger people

are quite receptive.

0:28:340:28:36

The events and discussions taking

place here today cover a whole range

0:28:360:28:39

of topics from women's

rights to the Third World

0:28:390:28:42

and the impact on British socialism.

0:28:420:28:44

But there's much less discussion

of the Russian Civil War,

0:28:440:28:48

the purges and the political

repression that would come later.

0:28:480:28:52

We wanted to have this conference

0:28:520:28:55

because we wanted to show it

in a positive light.

0:28:550:28:58

Whatever one's view of what happened

to the Soviet Union subsequently

0:28:580:29:01

the fact is it is important

to understand the process

0:29:010:29:05

of revolutionary change

for its own sake.

0:29:050:29:09

Red October would usher

in 70 years of communism.

0:29:100:29:13

The proletarite would rise,

find respect and security.

0:29:130:29:16

But the suppression of the peoples

of Eastern Europe, the forced labour

0:29:160:29:20

camps and the murder of hundreds

of thousands, if not millions

0:29:200:29:25

of people, make it difficult

for many to see that revolution

0:29:250:29:28

as something to celebrate.

0:29:280:29:32

That was Elizabeth Glinka reporting.

0:29:330:29:35

So is the centenary

of the Russian Revolution a cause

0:29:350:29:38

for celebration, or regret?

0:29:380:29:39

Well, to discuss this I'm

joined by former Labour

0:29:390:29:41

and Respect MP George Galloway,

and the journalist Peter Hitchens.

0:29:410:29:47

Good morning. Let me start with you

George Galloway. Is the October

0:29:470:29:52

revolution a cause for celebration?

With the, if not for the October

0:29:520:29:56

revolution, we'd been conducting

this interview in German. Though the

0:29:560:30:00

truth is this interview wouldn't be

taking place and we probably

0:30:000:30:04

wouldn't be alive for a variety of

reasons. The Soviet Union broke the

0:30:040:30:11

back of Hitler, as Mr Churchill

often owe pined in Parliament and

0:30:110:30:14

elsewhere. If not for the Soviet

Union, Hitler would have ruled. And

0:30:140:30:22

his successorsness, perhaps until

now, from Vladivostok all the way to

0:30:220:30:28

Portugal.

You say we wouldn't be

able to have this discussion. In the

0:30:280:30:32

former Soviet Union we couldn't have

this office either?

That's also

0:30:320:30:34

true. But even the...

George will be

able to say, that of course.

Even

0:30:340:30:42

the sun has spots on its face as

they used to say in the Soviet

0:30:420:30:46

Union. There is no doubt tremendous

abrasions, big crimes, a lot of

0:30:460:30:55

suffering but, if not for the

transformation, then the Soviet

0:30:550:31:05

Union, Russia's GDP increased from

1930 to 190 and the Nazi occupation.

0:31:050:31:12

And the strength that defeated

Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:120:31:19

Peter Hitchens, does it offend you

there are people celebrating 100

0:31:190:31:23

years since the Russian Revolution?

Offend? No, but in the Soviet Union,

0:31:230:31:28

in which I lived, you would not have

been able to say it was set up by a

0:31:280:31:33

cynical bitch, almost bloodless, but

engineered by the German Imperial

0:31:330:31:36

Government using -- a cynical

putsch, almost bloodless. That this

0:31:360:31:53

was the inauguration of an immensely

long period of repression,

0:31:530:31:58

brutality, secret police,

concentration camps and lies, which

0:31:580:32:02

I am likely to have seen come to an

end in my lifetime, and I cannot see

0:32:020:32:06

why anybody looking at that

disastrous country where so much

0:32:060:32:09

misery was needlessly imposed on so

many people for so long could

0:32:090:32:12

possibly celebrate the beginning of

it, which was completely avoidable,

0:32:120:32:15

and as I say was truly the result of

the cynical foreign policy and

0:32:150:32:21

intelligence operations of the

Imperial German Government is trying

0:32:210:32:23

to save it skin...

But everyone

including George Galloway

0:32:230:32:28

acknowledges the tyranny and terror

that followed.

He doesn't. He gives

0:32:280:32:33

statistics about GDP but fails to

mention the people murdered in

0:32:330:32:35

labour

0:32:350:32:42

camp... He was of course formerly a

Trotskyite and sung the praises of

0:32:420:32:48

Lenin, which I have not done and

neither have I done today. I have

0:32:480:32:53

never been a Communist, unlike Peter

Hitchens, but I do acknowledge and

0:32:530:32:57

celebrate that an entirely different

world opened up as a result of the

0:32:570:33:01

events in October 19 17. China, you

have just seen their party congress,

0:33:010:33:06

decorated with the iconography of

the Bolshevik Revolution, and China

0:33:060:33:10

is the most powerful, or soon will

be the most powerful country on the

0:33:100:33:14

earth.

With one of the most

repressive government?

I don't think

0:33:140:33:18

that is true. There is repression in

China, but...

Enormous repression in

0:33:180:33:24

China! How can you possibly argue

there is an?

China has taken more

0:33:240:33:29

people out of poverty in the last 30

years than any country, resume,

0:33:290:33:34

system, ever has -- how can you

possibly argue there is not?

All

0:33:340:33:38

despots always argue, trying to

distract your attention from the

0:33:380:33:42

mountains of skulls behind them,

their supposed economic success,

0:33:420:33:46

which generally does not turn out to

be as great as claimed. The Soviet

0:33:460:33:49

Union was an enormous pile of rust

by the time I lived there and was a

0:33:490:33:54

complete catastrophe.

Yes, that is

why it fell down. But we are talking

0:33:540:33:59

about the Revolution 100 years ago.

Is it possible to separate the two

0:33:590:34:04

events? A popular overthrowing of a

0:34:040:34:06

Is it possible to separate the two

government is perhaps different from

0:34:060:34:07

the tyranny and terror that

followed.

It was not a popular

0:34:070:34:12

overthrow. You sure this Eisenstein

propaganda as if it were fact. What

0:34:120:34:16

we see was a film made afterwards.

What actually happened was a putsch

0:34:160:34:21

in the middle of the night in which

hardly anybody... Nobody has even

0:34:210:34:30

mentioned...

That German connection,

a rather more important...

Nobody

0:34:300:34:37

has even mentioned during this year

until now that there was a Russian

0:34:370:34:40

Revolution. There were two. The

first one was a genuine uprising,

0:34:400:34:46

overthrowing the old regime, and I

think we can all be glad of it. The

0:34:460:34:49

second one was a cynical for --

foreign financed putsch and it does

0:34:490:34:55

not deserve to be spoken out.

Is

that true, and Menshevik revolution

0:34:550:34:58

would have done better than a

Bolshevik one?

It is not my business

0:34:580:35:04

and entirely counterfactual fiction,

if I may...

Unlike how you open this

0:35:040:35:10

discussion.

That is the most

important thing. If not for the

0:35:100:35:14

Soviet Union, we wouldn't be here.

Hetmyer might still, and most of the

0:35:140:35:21

world, with its allies -- Adolph

Hitler might have won and they make,

0:35:230:35:25

and most of the world...

The effect

of Bolshevism and coming is on

0:35:250:35:30

Europe was colossal.

Let's bring it

all a little bit more up-to-date.

0:35:300:35:33

You were saying earlier you have

0:35:330:35:38

You were saying earlier you have

never been a Leninist, although

0:35:380:35:39

Peter Hitchens confesses he was at

one time.

Absolutely was a

0:35:390:35:45

one time.

Absolutely was a

Trotskyist, and now nor the complete

0:35:450:35:48

folly of that particular political

disposition.

John McDonnell in the

0:35:480:35:54

Labour Party openly says he is a

Trotskyist, a Leninist, is that a

0:35:540:36:00

problem for the Labour Party?

I

would have thought, arts would be

0:36:000:36:03

more respected now than he has been

for quite some time as capitalism is

0:36:030:36:07

collapsing around our ears. From

2008 the Economist itself, the bible

0:36:070:36:14

of capitalism, began to resurrect

Marxist economics and analysis, so I

0:36:140:36:18

really don't think it is. Jeremy

Corbyn is not a Marxist.

0:36:180:36:24

Corbyn is not a Marxist. It only

took them four years, 54...

0:36:240:36:30

took them four years, 54...

It is

not that.

0:36:300:36:33

not that.

I think we are moving into

an era where Governments like the

0:36:330:36:38

Chinese Government are making plans,

and are succeeding in implementing

0:36:380:36:42

them, and thus transforming their

position.

0:36:420:36:46

position. China in 1949, and I don't

need to tell you, was just about the

0:36:460:36:50

most backward place you could

possibly imagine.

0:36:500:36:55

possibly imagine. And from 1949 to

now it has sold transforms that it

0:36:550:36:58

is the world's biggest economy...

0:36:580:37:01

is the world's biggest economy...

We

are in danger of

0:37:010:37:05

are in danger of getting sidetracked

by China here.

I have to put this

0:37:050:37:08

point in. If China was backward in

1949 it was far more backward by the

0:37:080:37:13

time Mao Zedong finished his great

leap forward and starved millions of

0:37:130:37:16

people to death in the period of

economic lunacy.

0:37:160:37:21

economic lunacy. You just don't

notice...

What George was saying

0:37:210:37:24

they are, and a sense certainly

amongst younger voters in this

0:37:240:37:28

country and others, where they are

turning against capitalism, they

0:37:280:37:30

don't think it has worked or

delivered for them, that this kind

0:37:300:37:34

of Marxist Leninist philosophy is

becoming more popular?

Let's hope

0:37:340:37:38

not. The fact the current system is

failing does not seem to recommend

0:37:380:37:42

the Soviet system, which is

0:37:420:37:46

the Soviet system, which is

demonstrably a failure, and even its

0:37:460:37:47

own leaders admitted it failed and

that is why they tried to reform it

0:37:470:37:51

in the period I was there and why it

collapsed. Whatever you might want

0:37:510:37:54

to conclude from examining our

position, the Soviet alternative is

0:37:540:37:57

not the thing you want the dues.

This was a long period of disaster,

0:37:570:38:00

and I remember at the end of it

watching in Moscow said a film which

0:38:000:38:05

has never been shown

0:38:050:38:09

has never been shown here, and the

title means approximately we can't

0:38:090:38:11

go on living like this, and for the

first time, the politburo told the

0:38:110:38:17

truth about what life was like in

the dreadful place and everyone in

0:38:170:38:19

that cinema was weeping because

finally they saw the truth being

0:38:190:38:22

told about the dreadful

anti-civilisation in which they had

0:38:220:38:25

been taught to live for so long. The

idea we should celebrate it revive

0:38:250:38:29

it seems to me to be verging on the

obscene.

0:38:290:38:33

obscene.

George, one interesting

question about this of course,

0:38:330:38:37

whilst there are events going on in

London and across the UK to mark

0:38:370:38:40

this centenary, it is not being

celebrated in Russia.

I was in

0:38:400:38:43

Russia a couple of weeks ago. There

is a big debate about whether it

0:38:430:38:47

ought to be, and many people are

celebrating it...

Vladimir Putin is

0:38:470:38:52

not. He would want to ignore it.

But

the Communist Party is the second

0:38:520:38:55

biggest party in Russia.

0:38:550:38:58

biggest party in Russia. And it is

the ruling party in China, which,

0:38:580:39:02

with respect, is not a separate

thing, because China is continuing

0:39:020:39:06

the Russian Revolution and doing

rather better at it than the

0:39:060:39:09

Russians did, but there are

0:39:090:39:12

Russians did, but there are many

people, particularly older, that is

0:39:120:39:14

true, who think that the era of the

Soviet Union was better than the

0:39:140:39:20

Soviet Union was better than the

very cold period of capitalism that

0:39:200:39:22

succeeded it. So half

0:39:220:39:24

succeeded it. So half the world

followed for a

0:39:240:39:28

followed for a time the red flag,

the red

0:39:280:39:32

the red banner of Leninism. No one

will do so again.

0:39:320:39:36

will do so again. Leninism of the

kind that Peter used to proselytise

0:39:360:39:38

is certainly not coming back, but

Marxism is going to live on.

Let's

0:39:380:39:43

hope not.

Thank you both, gentlemen,

for coming on to

0:39:430:39:47

It's coming up to 11.40am.

0:39:470:39:48

Good morning and welcome

to Sunday Politics Scotland.

0:39:540:39:56

Coming up on the programme...

0:39:560:40:00

What should Holyrood do

about sexual harassment claims,

0:40:000:40:04

after MSP Monica Lennon makes

allegations of sexual assault

0:40:040:40:06

and last night's resignation

0:40:060:40:07

of the Government

minister Mark McDonald?

0:40:070:40:10

Scottish Labour

will have a new leader in place

0:40:100:40:13

in two weeks' time.

0:40:130:40:14

I'll be speaking to the

two candidates Anas Sarwar

0:40:140:40:16

and Richard Leonard about why

they want the job.

0:40:160:40:20

And a former adviser

to Donald Trump has said the US

0:40:200:40:23

President could support Scottish

independence in a future referendum

0:40:230:40:27

but only "if it makes sense".

0:40:270:40:30

More claims of sexual harassment

have come to light as a Labour MSP

0:40:300:40:35

says she was sexually assaulted,

and a Scottish Government minister

0:40:350:40:42

resigned last night over his past

actions which he now

0:40:420:40:44

says were" considered

to be inappropriate".

0:40:440:40:46

Our political correspondent

Andrew Kerr has more.

0:40:460:40:50

Just bring us to speed with the

latest allegations at Holyrood.

Good

0:40:500:40:54

morning. Monica Lennon is a rising

star in the Scottish Labour Party.

0:40:540:41:01

Before she became an MSP in 2013,

she says she was groped at a Labour

0:41:010:41:06

Party event by a senior male

colleague. She made an initial

0:41:060:41:12

complaint, but did not follow it

through because she was concerned

0:41:120:41:15

she would not be believed. She has

chosen to speak out just now the

0:41:150:41:21

highlight that sexism is rife, she

is calling for a change in culture

0:41:210:41:25

and so far she is the most senior

Labour politician to make such an

0:41:250:41:30

allegation. The Labour Party have

released a statement saying they

0:41:300:41:37

take all allegations seriously, we

ask anyone with a complaint to come

0:41:370:41:40

forward so allegations can be

investigated. The other big story

0:41:400:41:46

was that the SNP MSP Mark McDonald,

the childcare Minister resigned

0:41:460:41:51

citing that his behaviour had been

inappropriate and now the First

0:41:510:41:56

Minister will have to find a

replacement in due course, we are

0:41:560:41:59

told. Another story today as well,

this morning the Sunday Post is

0:41:590:42:05

reporting that Willie coffee, was

ported to Holyrood authorities after

0:42:050:42:14

a civil servant complained about his

behaviour. The MSP says he does not

0:42:140:42:19

recognise the claims about his

behaviour.

And it is not just

0:42:190:42:23

Holyrood, there is a string of

allegations at Westminster.

A whole

0:42:230:42:27

string that, the most important one

today I suppose is the fact an

0:42:270:42:35

investigation into the first

Secretary of State Damian Green has

0:42:350:42:38

been widened out over allegations

that pornography was found on his

0:42:380:42:42

office computer back in 2008. He was

an opposition that, the Labour Party

0:42:420:42:48

were in Government and their were

Home Office leaks, that is why it

0:42:480:42:52

was raided by police. He says the

story is completely untrue and comes

0:42:520:42:58

from a tainted and untrustworthy

salt. More allegations about the

0:42:580:43:04

former Secretary of State for

Defence Michael Fallon who resigned

0:43:040:43:06

juror in the week over his

behaviour, a female journalist says

0:43:060:43:11

he lunged at her a number of years

ago, friends of Sir Michael are not

0:43:110:43:17

denying the allegation. There are a

number of other stories in the

0:43:170:43:21

Sunday papers about Westminster too

numerous to mention.

Thank you for

0:43:210:43:26

joining us.

0:43:260:43:28

We contacted the Scottish Government

this morning for comment about this

0:43:280:43:30

issue, but they were unable to put

anyone up for interview

0:43:300:43:33

on the programme.

0:43:330:43:34

Now, there are only two weeks left

in the Labour leadership contest

0:43:340:43:40

and both candidates have been

slugging it out over policy matters

0:43:400:43:42

in order to win members' votes.

0:43:420:43:45

We'll be asking them about their

claims to lead in a moment.

0:43:450:43:48

However, this morning

MSP Monica Lennon has made a fresh

0:43:480:43:51

allegation of sexual assault,

which she claimed was reported

0:43:510:43:53

to the party but she then decided

not to take it further

0:43:530:43:56

because she felt she

would not be believed.

0:43:560:43:58

Well, Anas Sarwar and Richard

Leonard are in the studio now.

0:43:580:44:00

Welcome to you both.

0:44:000:44:07

Just on this whole issue, Anas

Sarwar, of sexual harassment. The

0:44:070:44:12

allegations are reported from Monica

Lennon but also from other people in

0:44:120:44:18

the Labour Party. There is a culture

within Labour where they feel they

0:44:180:44:24

cannot come forward to complain,

that they are, if they do mention

0:44:240:44:30

it, it is trivialised and they are

made fun of. This is not good, is

0:44:300:44:35

there are a serious problem and what

should be done?

Monica Lennon is a

0:44:350:44:40

colleague and friend of both Richard

and I and I believe both of those

0:44:400:44:44

would be distressed to read the news

this morning. The reality is this is

0:44:440:44:49

not an isolated case within the

Labour Party, sadly wherever there

0:44:490:44:53

are those who think they have a

perceived position of power, they

0:44:530:44:57

abuse it, that is happening within

political parties and in our

0:44:570:45:01

Parliament and probably happening in

workplaces across the country. What

0:45:010:45:05

we have to do is try and create the

space for a woman to be able to come

0:45:050:45:10

forward and speak if they wish to do

so, not forced to, but if they wish

0:45:100:45:15

to do so, create safe spaces for

that. This culture of people abusing

0:45:150:45:24

their position of power is

unacceptable, unacceptable many

0:45:240:45:32

years ago and it is unacceptable

now. That is why ministers may say

0:45:320:45:37

it was OK in the past, but not now.

The fact is that that safe space to

0:45:370:45:43

come forward and be taken seriously,

people like Monica Lennon and others

0:45:430:45:49

do not feel there is a culture in

the Labour Party where they can do

0:45:490:45:53

that.

That is something we need to

fix. I am somebody who strongly

0:45:530:45:58

supports the idea of an independent

channel that people can go down so

0:45:580:46:02

they are not speaking to people

where there may be a perceived or

0:46:020:46:07

actual conflict of interest. I think

what we need to do as the Scottish

0:46:070:46:11

Labour Party is appoint someone of

some standing, perhaps someone with

0:46:110:46:16

a background image quality is

campaigning...

Someone outside the

0:46:160:46:19

Labour Party?

Certainly outside the

Parliamentary structures and the

0:46:190:46:26

representative structures of the

Labour Party. Someone with an

0:46:260:46:30

sufficient independence and a

sufficient standing in the eyes of

0:46:300:46:33

both women members and those people

who think they have been wronged. I

0:46:330:46:39

think we need to create the space,

and independent space separate from

0:46:390:46:44

the current structures of the Labour

Party in order to do that because

0:46:440:46:48

the revelations today by Monica

Lennon are appalling. If her story

0:46:480:46:55

is that she has complained to the

Labour Party and not felt confident

0:46:550:46:59

than to pursue it, that is wrong.

Also there was a culture where she

0:46:590:47:05

mentioned it was trivialised, to was

not taken seriously. Other women

0:47:050:47:08

have said that as well.

And other

women have said that to me recently

0:47:080:47:14

and I think we need to act on it, I

do not think we can ignore it, I

0:47:140:47:19

think we need to take strident

action. After all, the Labour Party

0:47:190:47:24

is founded on the value of equality

and if women do not feel

0:47:240:47:27

comfortable, if they feel as if they

are opening themselves up

0:47:270:47:32

potentially do this kind of

behaviour, then that is not a

0:47:320:47:35

welcoming Labour Party and that is

not a Labour Party we can't

0:47:350:47:39

tolerate. We need zero tolerance of

this, and into independent route set

0:47:390:47:45

up by the Labour Party and we need

to take action now.

You two are

0:47:450:47:50

standing against each other, the

voting has started. Anas Sarwar,

0:47:500:47:54

give me one policy you have that

Richard Leonard doesn't have that

0:47:540:47:59

makes you think people should vote

for you.

We are currently facing

0:47:590:48:03

austerity right across the country

and we have tax powers in Scotland

0:48:030:48:07

to stop austerity but about is why I

want to use the tax powers we have

0:48:070:48:11

to create a genuinely progressive

redistribution of tax policy. A

0:48:110:48:20

significant tax increase to the 2%.

Richard Leonard once that as well.

0:48:200:48:29

Richard Leonard once that as well.

I

want to increase tax in the top 2%

0:48:290:48:32

which would raise millions of pounds

to fund our Scottish child tax

0:48:320:48:37

credit policy and put in new money

into our schools and hospitals.

What

0:48:370:48:40

is your distinctive policy?

We need

a once in a generation debate about

0:48:400:48:45

the kind of society we want to

build, the public services we need

0:48:450:48:48

and how we will fund that. We need a

debate about our taxation approach.

0:48:480:48:57

What I have said which is

distinctive from Anas Mapproach is

0:48:570:49:02

we now need to look at a wealth tax

because we live in a society where

0:49:020:49:10

the top 1% in Scotland and more

wealth than the bottom 50%.

When you

0:49:100:49:17

say a wealth tax, what are you

talking about?

I am talking about a

0:49:170:49:22

1% windfall levy on the wealth of

the top 10% that would bring in a

0:49:220:49:30

£3.7 billion into Scottish

expenditure.

The Scottish Government

0:49:300:49:32

have said it is not within the power

of the Scottish Government,

0:49:320:49:37

parliament is to do that.

There is a

route to do it through an order of

0:49:370:49:41

Council and of the 1998 Scotland act

and I believe this is about

0:49:410:49:46

political will, a matter of

creativity, a matter of saying we

0:49:460:49:50

cannot go on as we are. Simply

trying to manage our way out of it.

0:49:500:49:54

You are saying we should value the

assets of everyone in Scotland and

0:49:540:49:59

the top 1% will take 1% of those

assets?

0:49:590:50:06

In we value them anyway.

Why are you

against that? I am not against that.

0:50:060:50:13

The reality is we do not have time

for the debate and we do not have

0:50:130:50:18

time for an argument about what is

within the law and not within the

0:50:180:50:23

law in the Scottish Government. I

have put forward a plan that will

0:50:230:50:27

address and end austerity in a few

weeks' time.

Neither of you are

0:50:270:50:33

going to be First Minister.

In the

next decade. There is a discussion

0:50:330:50:40

paper being forehead by the Scottish

Government. We know that. That is

0:50:400:50:46

asking for a tax policies. I am

saying that rather than talking

0:50:460:50:50

about what we might do in two or

three years' time, I want to end

0:50:500:50:56

austerity nine. We will cut tax at

the bottom 50% and increase tax on

0:50:560:51:01

the top 2%.

Throughout this campaign

supporters of both of you have been

0:51:010:51:06

making a big fuss about recruitment

to the Labour Party in order to vote

0:51:060:51:09

for you. There have been allegations

on your side, Anas, there have been

0:51:090:51:16

separate ballots, there have been

allegations that the Unite union

0:51:160:51:19

have been recruiting on your side.

Is it true, Anas, that you sort QC's

0:51:190:51:27

advice on the legality of this

election?

We raised concerns that

0:51:270:51:31

were brought to us by individual

members from one particular union.

0:51:310:51:37

But did you get QC's involved?

It

was so that we could have... What

0:51:370:51:46

did that value? There should be a

level playing field and it should be

0:51:460:51:49

the same rule applied right

across... Are you suggesting there

0:51:490:51:54

wasn't. We were told that was not

the case and we took it forward.

So

0:51:540:51:59

you got advice. You are not

suggesting you will act on that. Can

0:51:590:52:03

you give us an Guaranty, even if

this result of this election is very

0:52:030:52:10

close, you will not challenge it in

the courts?

My fundamental issue is

0:52:100:52:15

that we want to make sure that

procedure is there. What I want to

0:52:150:52:19

see happen is this contest is to be

about the ideas and after this

0:52:190:52:26

contest, whoever wins, we unite

behind their leader and get behind

0:52:260:52:29

him.

So even if there is a narrow

win for Richard Leonard, you will

0:52:290:52:35

not challenge in the courts?

No, I

will support Richard. And I would

0:52:350:52:40

hope that Richard would do the same

back?

Would you do that? Is Anas

0:52:400:52:46

wins, you will not resort to legal

challenge and accept the result?

I

0:52:460:52:52

will accept the result. I have put

my faith in the internal Labour

0:52:520:52:57

Party process. I think it is a

fairly robust process. Accretions

0:52:570:53:02

layer people have been found out

they should not have a ballot, their

0:53:020:53:07

names have come to light because the

scrutiny and checks and balances.

0:53:070:53:12

The other thing I want to emphasise

is that the growth in membership of

0:53:120:53:17

the Labour Party is a good thing. It

is something that I welcome and then

0:53:170:53:23

I think Anas welcomes, too.

We have

established that no matter what the

0:53:230:53:27

result is, both of you will accept

it. That is the case, right?

Of

0:53:270:53:34

course. I want us to welcome all

members. And any suggestions that

0:53:340:53:39

somehow we should racially profiled

the membership, I want people who

0:53:390:53:46

trade unionists, not trade

unionists...

But you're not

0:53:460:53:50

suggesting...

There have been

suggestions in the newspaper that

0:53:500:53:54

some people feel their membership

has been questioned. I want people

0:53:540:53:58

to be welcome from all communities

and every background.

You did rather

0:53:580:54:04

better in the general election than

perhaps either of you were

0:54:040:54:08

expecting. There is a view, Richard

Leonard, that was more to do with

0:54:080:54:13

Jeremy Corbyn than anything to do

with anything this Scottish Labour

0:54:130:54:18

Party did. Would you subscribed to

that?

Largely. We had an opportunity

0:54:180:54:24

during the general election which we

messed. To understand that Jeremy

0:54:240:54:29

Corbyn was proven to be a principled

and popular leader. And that the

0:54:290:54:35

manifesto we stood on which was a

radical manifesto which offered

0:54:350:54:38

people a vision of a different kind

of society, was a hopeful vision,

0:54:380:54:42

was winning support amongst people.

Within the debate inside Scotland,

0:54:420:54:48

we simply smoke about this Scottish

constitutional question.

I want to

0:54:480:54:53

ask Anas, one of the criticisms of

view is that you were only a year

0:54:530:54:58

ago in favour of turfing Jeremy

Corbyn out from the leadership of

0:54:580:55:02

the Labour Party. People say how can

you be a leader that represents the

0:55:020:55:07

carbon Labour Party that seems to be

making inroads for Labour in

0:55:070:55:10

Scotland? -- Jeremy Corbyn.

I wanted

him to be Prime Minister. I want

0:55:100:55:17

Jeremy Corbyn to be Prime Minister,

but that is not just the only job of

0:55:170:55:22

a Scottish leader. We do energise

between the many not the few

0:55:220:55:27

manifesto. He made people believe

again that we can return a Labour

0:55:270:55:32

government. Let's be honest about

that result in June, we did not win.

0:55:320:55:35

We got thrashed, particularly in

Scotland. We did make gains, but at

0:55:350:55:42

the same time the Tories ran the

worst campaign in living memory and

0:55:420:55:47

needed 300,000 votes in Scotland. We

can only deliver a UK Labour

0:55:470:55:52

government and Jeremy Corbyn as

Prime Minister if we have an

0:55:520:55:54

effective Labour Party in Scotland.

The other side of this is, Richard

0:55:540:56:00

Leonard, this Richard Leonard, he

says he is more ensuring with the

0:56:000:56:07

carbon Labour Party. In what way are

you more radical than Anna Sarwar?

0:56:070:56:13

-- Jeremy Corbyn Labour Party.

I am

in favour of an extension of public

0:56:130:56:19

ownership. I am in favour of an

industrial strategy in which the

0:56:190:56:26

role of the government is to plan

more in the in the economy, rather

0:56:260:56:31

than relying on market forces. I am

in favour of longer term action to

0:56:310:56:36

end poverty and doing inequality.

Nor nods from -- more modern nods

0:56:360:56:43

from Anas.

I do not think we can

have an approach to social security

0:56:430:56:49

which is predicated on the

continuation of a low value Scottish

0:56:490:56:52

economy. Do you think he does? I

have somebody who has campaigned for

0:56:520:56:57

and worked for decent conditions for

people in my entire adult political

0:56:570:57:03

life.

You have not told me one

radical policy that you have that

0:57:030:57:09

Anna Sarwar does not support.

I

support the right of working people

0:57:090:57:13

to buy an enterprise they working,

if it is put Brazil, are facing

0:57:130:57:18

closure. -- Anas Sarwar.

I have some

radical policies that Richard does

0:57:180:57:26

not agree with, the Scottish Child

tax credit to remove more children

0:57:260:57:36

out of poverty.

0:57:360:57:42

out of poverty. 300,000 jobs are

directly linked to membership of the

0:57:420:57:47

single market and the customs union.

I am going to talk about you live in

0:57:470:57:53

a moment. One of the allegations you

have not had your moment to seek in

0:57:530:57:58

this campaign, you have given up

your shareholding in your family

0:57:580:58:01

firm. What would you say to members

watching this and wondering which

0:58:010:58:05

way to vote, you wear a big

shareholder in your family firm

0:58:050:58:08

which does not, it does not pay the

real living wage in Scotland, but

0:58:080:58:15

does not really recognise trade

unions. You had an opportunity to

0:58:150:58:19

influence that firm to recognise

trade unions. So if you did not do

0:58:190:58:24

that as a shareholder, why should we

take seriously what you are saying

0:58:240:58:28

no, wanting to promote trade unions

and society more widely?

I am glad

0:58:280:58:32

you have asked that question. The

reality is that there are trade

0:58:320:58:37

union members within the workforce,

what we are talking about here is a

0:58:370:58:43

formal trade union recognition.

There is no formal trade union

0:58:430:58:48

recognition in that workplace. But I

did not take that company's word for

0:58:480:58:55

it. I spoke to the trade union

directly and they also told me that

0:58:550:58:59

they had not read Quested

recognition agreement.

Hang on a

0:58:590:59:05

second, you are saying there is no

formal trade union recognition in

0:59:050:59:11

which you are a major shareholder.

What I am saying is when I spoke to

0:59:110:59:16

the trade union, they said they had

a good relationship with the

0:59:160:59:19

company. And I want to support

further trade union...

Your children

0:59:190:59:27

go to private school. Pat Rafferty

of the Unite trade union, said how

0:59:270:59:33

good to skate -- state schools in

Scotland have two B before Anas

0:59:330:59:38

Sarwar will put his children in

those schools?

He attacked may

0:59:380:59:42

saying that I am trying to break up

the Labour Party and not demonstrate

0:59:420:59:46

unity when he did that very thing.

If he thinks attacking my children

0:59:460:59:51

on the platform of a conference, I

do not think that is acceptable.

0:59:510:59:56

People are not attacking your

children.

He is politicising my

0:59:560:59:59

children for his own purposes.

It is

a choice you are entitled as a

0:59:591:00:05

citizen to make. But not as leader

of the Labour Party.

The point I

1:00:051:00:09

make is this, that is a decision for

myself and my way to make. That is

1:00:091:00:14

the decision we made as a couple and

I would hope people would accept her

1:00:141:00:19

decision. The important point is we

have 4000 fewer teachers and skills

1:00:191:00:25

because of the SNP.

We are running

out of time. -- in our schools.

1:00:251:00:32

Richard Leonard, do you have a

problem with our staff. Anna Sarwar

1:00:321:00:36

is a long-standing member of the

Labour Party, he is someone who

1:00:361:00:39

comes from a wealthy family so he

does not have an -- to be in the

1:00:391:00:45

position he is in. -- Anas Sarwar.

I

am an NHS dentist by profession.

Why

1:00:451:00:54

shouldn't he do these things?

Here

we are in the middle of the ballot

1:00:541:01:01

to elect the next leader of the

Scottish Labour Party. I would

1:01:011:01:05

rather stand on my own record which

is on the straight Scottish trade

1:01:051:01:08

union and Labour... I entered public

office to advance the position of

1:01:081:01:20

working people.

So when Pat Rafferty

says that about Anas Sarwar, one of

1:01:201:01:27

your most prominent supporters, what

would you say to Pat Rafferty, that

1:01:271:01:32

is not reasonable?

Pat Rafferty has

a mandate from his membership and

1:01:321:01:37

will be accountable to his

membership. He is not accountable to

1:01:371:01:45

me, is he?

But you would be entitled

as leader of the Scottish Labour

1:01:451:01:50

Party to make a comment on it.

He

offered his own view to his

1:01:501:01:54

membership about some of the tests

that they think should apply in

1:01:541:01:58

considering who they should fought

for in the ballot.

What's Anas

1:01:581:02:02

Sarwar is saying it is not

reasonable to question where he

1:02:021:02:06

decides to send his children to

school. Pat Rafferty is done that. I

1:02:061:02:10

am asking you to say, I agree with

Pat Rafferty or not on saying that.

1:02:101:02:17

I do not know of that is an answer.

Europe. You have made the big thing

1:02:171:02:22

about how we should stay in the

single market. We cannot stay in the

1:02:221:02:26

single market because it is not

Labour Party policy.

I have

1:02:261:02:31

discussed this with Keir Starmer. It

is not policy to support the single

1:02:311:02:39

market. The point I am making is I

am not waiting for permission to see

1:02:391:02:43

what I think is in the best interest

of Scotland or the UK. No one voted

1:02:431:02:49

to lose their job, no one voted to

make themselves poorer, no one voted

1:02:491:02:55

for a turbo-charged austerity, if

you are genuine about protecting

1:02:551:02:58

jobs and trade... You can only do

that with permanent membership of

1:02:581:03:05

the single market.

The point would

be against you which is that, look,

1:03:051:03:09

it may be that the Labour Party is

again staying in the single market,

1:03:091:03:13

but people in Scotland voted to stay

in Europe. You make a lot of the

1:03:131:03:17

thing about being the leader of the

Scottish Labour Party, is it not

1:03:171:03:23

better for them to have Anas

Sarwar's position.

It is about

1:03:231:03:29

access to the single market without

a barrier, without tariff barrier in

1:03:291:03:35

particular. That is something I

fully support. I support the defence

1:03:351:03:40

of equal rights, I support the need

to protect jobs and defend the

1:03:401:03:45

Scottish economy. And I believe

there are ways of doing that without

1:03:451:03:51

necessarily having membership of the

single market.

1:03:511:04:00

single market.

We will have to leave

it there. Thank you both very much

1:04:001:04:04

indeed. Thank you for joining us

this morning.

1:04:041:04:06

A former adviser to Donald Trump has

suggested the US President

1:04:061:04:08

could support Scottish independence

in a future referendum,

1:04:081:04:10

but only if it makes economic sense.

1:04:101:04:12

Sebastian Gorka, who worked

in the White House until August,

1:04:121:04:14

told BBC Scotland that the President

was a "pragmatist".

1:04:141:04:16

Our political correspondent,

Glenn Campbell, has more.

1:04:161:04:26

America first. Donald Trump made

this promise to the American people

1:04:261:04:30

on the day he took office. Earlier,

during the election campaign in

1:04:301:04:35

Scotland, he also endorsed Brexit.

People want to see borders. They

1:04:351:04:39

don't necessarily want people

pouring into their country. That

1:04:391:04:42

they do not know who they are and

where they come from, they have no

1:04:421:04:46

idea. I think not only did it win,

but it won buy a bigger margin.

What

1:04:461:04:53

is behind the President's thinking.

Everything the president does is win

1:04:531:04:58

by one word, sovereignty. He

believed nations streets prosper

1:04:581:05:01

when they are sovereign. And if you

have a cultural connection, if you

1:05:011:05:06

are part of the Judeo Christian

civilisation, whether you are Poland

1:05:061:05:10

or the UK or the Scottish nation, we

have connections to. We would like

1:05:101:05:15

you to thrive.

If we thrive, you

thrive. If Donald Trump is so keen

1:05:151:05:22

on sovereignty, mighty back

independence for Scotland in a

1:05:221:05:25

future referendum?

You have to look

at the nickel and dime at the end of

1:05:251:05:29

the way. Does that economic clay

make sense. Is there a future that

1:05:291:05:34

is connected to devolution. He is a

pride to most. He is a patriot. This

1:05:341:05:38

is a man who left behind billions

and went into an arena where he

1:05:381:05:42

would be attacked. His ten-year-old

son would be attacked by the media.

1:05:421:05:49

He did not need to do this. So if it

makes sense pragmatically, why would

1:05:491:05:53

he not support it. I would not say

he is there, but he is somebody who

1:05:531:05:58

looks at the reality, not the

utopia.

1:05:581:06:00

We obviously have a deep interest in

making sure that one of the closest

1:06:041:06:09

allies that we will ever have

remains strong, robust, United and

1:06:091:06:17

an effective partner.

In 2014,

President Obama opposed independence

1:06:171:06:21

that he was not alone.

I would say I

hope it doesn't happen. I do not

1:06:211:06:27

have a vote in Scotland, but I hope

it doesn't happen.

But at that time,

1:06:271:06:30

Donald Trump was more cautious

writing...

1:06:301:06:39

writing...

Three, two, one.

More

recently, you said independence

1:06:391:06:44

would be terrible because in his

view Scotland might lose hosting

1:06:441:06:47

rights for the apple mac open golf

tournament. He questions the value

1:06:471:06:56

of his backing.

He was hedging his

bets before the referendum, though

1:06:561:07:01

once the decision had been made in

2014, you moved to an opposition

1:07:011:07:06

attitude to independence.

Is it time

to kiss and make up?

The cause of

1:07:061:07:12

independence depends on many things.

It depends on having a vision of the

1:07:121:07:16

future where you look at how

Scotland is governed and how the

1:07:161:07:19

world is governed in a positive and

progressive way. I cannot feel that

1:07:191:07:26

Donald Trump would do anything other

than damage that vision by

1:07:261:07:29

association, so I think our

relationship with Donald Trump is

1:07:291:07:34

the one we have right now.

Donald

Trump seems much closer to UK

1:07:341:07:40

nationalists than those that want

Scotland to be an independent state.

1:07:401:07:45

Thank you. Good evening,

Mississippi.

1:07:451:07:49

And our political correspondent

Glenn Campbell has been looking

1:07:491:07:51

into the relationship

between the President and Scotland

1:07:511:07:53

in the documentary Donald Trump:

Scotland's President, which will be

1:07:531:07:56

broadcast on Thursday at 9pm

on BBC One Scotland.

1:07:561:07:59

Now, it's time to take

a look at the week ahead.

1:07:591:08:04

This week I'm joined by journalist

Kathleen Nutt and Scotland Editor

1:08:111:08:14

for The Guardian, Severin Carrell.

1:08:141:08:17

Kathleen, a string of allegations

now in Holyrood and Westminster.

1:08:171:08:24

Where do we go from here?

1:08:241:08:31

Where do we go from here?

Gosh, it

is very difficult, I think the

1:08:311:08:33

parties are going to have to get on

top of this, I think Richard

1:08:331:08:37

Leonard's suggestion of an

independent body set up, a group set

1:08:371:08:43

up for women of the party to

investigate women to take their

1:08:431:08:49

complaints to be investigated.

Monica Lennon's claim today work

1:08:491:08:54

completely shocking, shocking that

they happened and they were

1:08:541:08:59

trivialised and shocking she felt

she could not report them.

And she's

1:08:591:09:03

not the only person in the Labour

Party to have similar allegations,

1:09:031:09:07

that there is a culture where you

were basically laughed that if you

1:09:071:09:12

mentioned this.

What Monica was

referring to was a wider issue in

1:09:121:09:20

other parties as well, by the nature

of power and how hierarchies and how

1:09:201:09:26

women feel they are marginalised

when it comes to challenging those

1:09:261:09:29

kinds of privileges and powers. I am

not sure Richard's proposal would be

1:09:291:09:36

a Scottish Labour exercise

appropriate for labour as I

1:09:361:09:38

suspected something cultural

throughout the party, UK level also.

1:09:381:09:44

An obvious thing would be to take up

Richard Leonard's proposal, but for

1:09:441:09:49

all the party. Maybe not a

Parliamentary thing, but maybe each

1:09:491:09:54

party do that, and he says that can

be done UK level as well.

When I

1:09:541:10:00

spoke to Monica Lennon she was

suggesting Holyrood should set up an

1:10:001:10:05

investigation to find out what the

extent of this problem is in the

1:10:051:10:10

Scottish Parliament and I think

there is also going to be questions

1:10:101:10:14

this week about the male dominance

of some of the key organisations and

1:10:141:10:22

groups in Holyrood, for example the

corporate body which runs Holyrood,

1:10:221:10:27

which at the moment is totally

dominated by men.

It does not

1:10:271:10:30

surprise you that this should this

be such a problem given this has

1:10:301:10:34

been talked about? What is odd about

this is that, it is not art, it is

1:10:341:10:43

disappointing, but it has come to

light because of something happening

1:10:431:10:47

in LA.

I'm not surprised. It is

endemic in society and did not

1:10:471:10:57

surprising that it it is in all

workplaces including the Holyrood. I

1:10:571:11:03

think women have been emboldened by

the Harvey Weinstein allegation,

1:11:031:11:08

they feel they can come forward and

they will be listened to, that

1:11:081:11:13

people are taking these claims

seriously.

But will they? Well

1:11:131:11:18

something fundamental change this

time? Because we have been here

1:11:181:11:22

before and if one said, this is a

serious problem and the culture has

1:11:221:11:26

to change. Clearly it hasn't.

I

think this is a watershed moment

1:11:261:11:31

where there is a point where the

power is being reversed because many

1:11:311:11:36

women have got the courage to come

forward and speak openly now. There

1:11:361:11:42

is a critical mass that has built up

behind this and the Harvey Weinstein

1:11:421:11:46

business was a trigger for that.

That is symptomatic of all great

1:11:461:11:50

scandals, all great scandals by

definition will simply blow up

1:11:501:11:53

because there is the build-up like a

volcano of so much pressure which

1:11:531:11:59

needs a way to vent itself. With the

question in Scotland, one of the

1:11:591:12:06

problems I have about Richard

Leonard's proposition is all the

1:12:061:12:12

parties are going to behave equally

openly and one of the striking

1:12:121:12:16

things of the children's minister's

resignation is he was imposed to

1:12:161:12:21

five days even be they knew there

were allegations against him and it

1:12:211:12:26

has taken five days for action.

Other parties, as soon as there was

1:12:261:12:31

allegations against a member of the

party, but person is suspended and

1:12:311:12:35

the SNP are behaving differently

from the other parties. I think the

1:12:351:12:42

Tory problem is even worse because

it is quite clearly evident there is

1:12:421:12:48

information known to the hierarchy

that has not been acted on for a

1:12:481:12:51

long period of time.

We are almost

out of time. I was looking forward

1:12:511:12:55

to asking about your thoughts on the

debate between the possible future

1:12:551:13:00

Labour leaders.

It will be

interesting to see when the new

1:13:001:13:06

leader is announced on the 18th if

they can have some sort of

1:13:061:13:12

re-conciliation and move forward. I

think it will be difficult.

We

1:13:121:13:17

have...

Whether the two camps can

carry on their internal feuding is

1:13:171:13:22

another matter.

I think they

will,...

They will continue feuding?

1:13:221:13:30

I think they will settle this and

move on. There have been animosity

1:13:301:13:34

is bubbling under the surface, but

actually the party's crisis is

1:13:341:13:39

deeper whether they agree on party

policy.

Thank you both very much

1:13:391:13:46

indeed.

1:13:461:13:47

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