19/11/2017 Sunday Politics Scotland


19/11/2017

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LineFromTo

Morning everyone, and welcome

to the Sunday Politics.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

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And this is your guide

to all the big stories that

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are shaping politics this weekend,

and a few of the smaller ones too.

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Philip Hammond is getting ready

to deliver his latest Budget

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on Wednesday and he's not short

of advice - to spend more,

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show restraint, even

to stop being an Eyore -

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but can he change the direction

of the country and his government?

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Conservative Party darling

Jacob Rees-Mogg has

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some advice of his own.

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He thinks the Chancellor

is being far too gloomy about Brexit

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- he joins me live to explain why.

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The former Leave campaign leader,

Gisela Stuart, will be here debating

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with pro-EU campaigner

Alastair Campbell, after taking

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a trip to her native Germany

to speak to businesses

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about Brexit.

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And on Sunday Politics Scotland

today, the Scottish Government saves

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BiFab from imminent administration.

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But is it enough to secure

manufacturing in the long term?

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I'll be asking the Economy

Secretary, Keith Brown.

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Also, after a bitter battle,

Richard Leonard becomes

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the ninth leader of Scottish Labour

since devolution, but will he be

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able to heal the party's wounds?

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And with me for for all of it,

three journalists who've promised

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not to show off like Michael Gove

by using any long economicky words -

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although I'm not sure they really

know that many anyway -

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it's Tom Newton Dunn,

Gaby Hinsliff and Iain Martin.

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Let's take a look at the big

political stories making the news

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this Sunday morning,

and as you might expect there's

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plenty of speculation

about what might or not might be

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in Philip Hammond's Budget.

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The Chancellor is promising a big

investment in new technology,

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including driverless cars -

which could be on the road by 2021.

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He's been interviewed

in the Sunday Times,

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where he talks about plans to reach

the target of building

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300,000 homes every year,

or the equivalent of a city

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the size of Leeds.

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That paper speculates that he's

attempting to turn from "fiscal

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Phil" into "hopeful Hammond"

as he tries to set out

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a vision for the country,

not just a list of numbers.

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The Sunday Telegraph thinks that

Mr Hammond is planning to offer

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a pay rise to nurses as part

of a bid to take on Labour.

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But that hasn't impressed

Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.

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He's spoken to a number of papers

and is calling for an emergency

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budget to invest in public services

and help struggling households.

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So that's a taste of what you might

hear on Wednesday and Mr Hammond

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and Mr McDonnell have both been

appearing this morning

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on the Andrew Marr Show.

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I think Britain has a very

bright future ahead of it,

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and we have to embrace

the opportunities that

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a post-Brexit world will offer.

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They will be opportunities that

are based on huge change,

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huge technological evolution.

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It's not always going to be easy,

but the British people have shown

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time and time again that we're up

for these challenges.

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For many people out there,

this is a depression.

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We've had people whose wages

have been cut by 10%.

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Nurses, for example.

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We've had people who are now...

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1.25 million food parcels handed out

in the sixth richest

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country in the world.

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That's what I call a recession

for large numbers of people.

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We will be talking about Labour and

their economic policies in a moment,

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but let's start with what we might

expect from the budget. We will talk

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to our panel of political observers.

Philip Hammond is under pressure to

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set out a bold vision and reset the

government's programme. Can we

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expect that?

No, we can't. We have

heard enough from the Chancellor

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across various broadcast and his

article in the Sunday Times. I think

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we will not be getting a bold

budget. His precise words short... A

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short time ago were a balanced

budget. Some Tory hearts will think.

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They desperately want something to

go out and shout about, something to

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capture people's imagination, and do

big and bold things, like how on

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earth are they going to build those

new 300,000 houses a year? There are

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good reasons why he has chosen what

appears to be a pretty staid,

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Conservative budget, and that is

that they are probably unable to get

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anything bold through Parliament.

His capital is so low among Tory

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MPs. If you have a minority

government, it is tricky.

We have

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seen ministers on programmes like

this in the last few weeks putting

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in the bids for what they would like

spending on, whether it be payment

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for nurses or parliament. Would he

struggled to get something radical

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through the Commons?

Big ideas cost

money. That's the problem. Bold

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ideas are controversial. In some

ways, Tory MPs are asking their

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Chancellor to do the impossible.

Government is already doing

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something big and bold, which is

Brexit. That has implications for

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how much money is available, how

many risks you want to take with

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everything else. What is crucial is

that he demonstrates a reputation

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for competence. The reputation that

the Conservative government has for

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economic competence, that many

people prefer them to Labour on the

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issue of economic competence. The

worst thing he could do is come up

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with a big, bold idea that

unravelled quickly. What they

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absolutely don't want is to come up

with an exciting idea that falls

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apart three days after the budget.

He is under pressure from

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Brexiteers, who are suspicious of

him. Does he have to offer them

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something?

Part of his problem is he

has to offer so many different

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people different things. This is

Philip Hammond trying to be and

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dynamic.

It is hard to tell

sometimes.

At least in theoretical

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terms. His longer-term difficulty is

that, if you look at the economic

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cycle, we are getting to a point

where we are probably overdue, if

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you put Brexit to one side, overdue

some kind of correction or downturn,

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if you look what has happened to

asset prices globally. What will be

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worrying for the Treasury is, just

as everyone is saying we should turn

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on the taps and build this or that,

we might be at the top of a cycle,

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and the Treasury will want to lose

something in the armoury in terms of

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probably growing the deficit if

there are economic difficulties in

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the next two years, and then there

is Brexit as well.

It sounds

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impossible.

I think so. Talking to

his friends and colleagues over the

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last few days, he had to make a

call, which was precisely how much

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can I get away with, with my

political capital being as low as it

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is, with the mixed problems he had

at the last budget, and a lot of the

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party disliking his approach to

Brexit. He is damned if he is,

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damned if he doesn't. Universal

Credit, we are expecting a reduction

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in the time it takes to wait,

business rates, affected by high

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inflation... I think we will see a

problem fixing budget which will

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probably do quite a lot of important

spadework in many areas.

We will

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pick up on some of this later in the

programme.

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Let's speak now to the Conservative

MP Jacob Rees-Mogg, this week

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he helpfully launched an alternative

"budget for Brexit" and advised

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the Chancellor to be less gloomy

about the consequences

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of leaving the EU.

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Thank you for joining us. Your

alternative budget is pretty

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radical. Almost half corporation

tax, Cap Stamp duty to help the

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London market. It seems you are

advocating the opposite from what we

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will hear from your Chancellor on

Wednesday.

There are two parts to

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the proposals I suggested. One is

that we should show that after we

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have left the European Union, the UK

is open to the rest of the world. It

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is about opening up to the rest of

the world. Secondly, looking at the

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modelling that has been done by the

Treasury and some other forecasters,

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which has been so comprehensively

wrong. The forecasts made about what

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would happen after Brexit have

turned out to be hopelessly false.

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The team at Cardiff University have

done some modelling based on the

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classical economic principles and

what happens if you move to free

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trade that would be very positive

for the economy.

You are predicting

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a Brexit dividend of £135 billion,

which sounds fantastic. Why are you

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right, and everybody else, including

the Bank of England and the

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Institute for Fiscal Studies, why

are they all wrong?

It depends on

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the type of modelling. The modelling

that have been done by the Treasury

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have been based on gravity models,

which work on the basis of the

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nearness of the market and the size

of the economy you are trading with.

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These have been wrong in the past.

They predicted that if we joined the

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euro, trade would grow by 300%. That

was then revised down to 200%, but

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it is fantasyland. The model I am

working on, by Sir Patrick Minford,

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who has a record of getting these

things right. He was right about the

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exchange rate mechanism, right about

the euro.

Being right in the past

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doesn't mean you are right about the

future. Why do you think the

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Treasury will not pick up the same

numbers, if this is so obvious to

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you?

I think the Treasury was

humiliated by the errors in its

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forecast prior to Brexit, and is

trying to defend its position. The

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short-term economic consequences of

a vote to leave was one of the most

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dishonest documents to come out of

the Treasury, purely a piece of

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political propaganda. They are

wounded by that and sticking to the

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same script, rather than looking at

other forecasts and other experts.

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You think the governor of the Bank

of England is an enemy of Brexit,

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and it sounds like you think the

Treasury is opposed to it. As the

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Chancellor fallen under their spell

as well, and been persuaded to be an

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enemy of Brexit?

I have admiration

the Chancellor, but George Osborne,

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his predecessor, was the architect

of Project Fear. He was too close to

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the Bank of England and lost his

independence. That is what needs to

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change. It is an opportunity in the

budget for Philip Hammond to show he

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is putting aside the Treasury's

mistakes in the past. It is very

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encouraging what he is saying this

morning, about a more positive

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approach to Brexit.

Lord Lawson has

accused Philip Hammond of being very

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close to sabotage on Brexit. He says

we need a can-do man at the Treasury

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and not a prophet of doom.

I think

that Philip Hammond is an

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exceptionally intelligent man, a

very thoughtful man. It is not a bad

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thing to have a Chancellor who is

serious minded and steady, rather

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than one who is a showman and uses

the Exchequer to interfere in

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absolutely everything.

I have a lot

of confidence in the Chancellor.

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When you launched your budget for

Brexit, you said the government has

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to deliver the £350 million for the

NHS that was delivered during the

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referendum, even though you didn't

think that promise should have been

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made. Is that something they now

need to deliver wrong?

It is. This

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only happens once we have left.

Politicians have to recognise that

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voters don't look at the small print

of electoral policies. If you put

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£350 million on the side of a bus

and say it may be available for the

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NHS, it is reasonable for people to

think that is a promise. Brexit was

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won by the Leave campaign, so it it

is important that they deliver on

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that promise. Politicians must keep

faith with voters and deliver on

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implied promises, as well as ones

that are set out in detail.

The

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Cabinet will move on to talk about

the Brexit bill this week, and we

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understand they may need to come up

with more money to satisfy EU

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demands. The more money spent on

that is less money available for

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things like spending on the NHS. Are

you worried about the size of the

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exit bill?

You have your finger on

the important point. The government

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will have to choose whether to give

lots of money to the European Union,

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or whether to spend money on UK

public services, and that will be

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part of the negotiation. On all

these issues, it comes down to

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choice is the government makes. I

would encourage the government to

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choose our own domestic public

services rather than expensive

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schemes in continent or Europe.

Why

are you advocating that the

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government should spend up to £2.5

billion on a no deal scenario?

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It is important that we are ready to

leave in the event of no deal. If we

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left with no deal we would on

current figures still be saving the

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remains of 18 billion so we would be

saving 15 and a half billion against

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paying for the financial framework.

To show we're ready on day one would

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be money well spent and most would

be needed any way. We need to have

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new customs arrangements in place

even if it is not for a no deal

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situation.

There are suggestions

that the Government might back down

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on the idea of putting the time and

date of leaving the EU on the face

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of the bill. Would you be Exxon

certained if that was -- concerned

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if that was remove prd the bill?

It

is in Article 50, unless Article 50

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is extended by the Council of Europe

we leave on 20th March 2019 and it

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makes accepts that should be the

same in -- sense that should be in

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same in domestic law. But that is a

secondary concern from my point of

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view. It is important that we leave

on that date.

Stay there if you

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would.

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We're joined in the studio

by the former minister

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Stephen Hammond.

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He's no relation to the Chancellor,

but he is a member

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of the Treasury Select Committee

and he's one of the Tory MPs named

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as "Brexit mutineers"

by the Daily Telegraph

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this week - lucky him.

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I'm assured you're no relation to

the Chancellor. Let's just pick up

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on what Jacob Rees Mogg was saying.

How important is it to you as a

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rebel that the Government does put

the date on.

I agree with Jacob it

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is in the Article 50 process, the

key reason it is important is the

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negotiations look like they're going

to be tricky and longer than we

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expected and it may well be that we

are still negotiating up until March

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2019. We could have a short couple

of weeks period of extension. Why do

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harm to the economy by falling out

on a precise time? If those

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negotiations need to be extended.

They won't go on for more than a

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couple of weeks, because there will

be elections in Europe in June 2019

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and there is no chance of a new

commission or Parliament dealing

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with this. Giving it flexibility and

with this flexibility the government

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said it wants flexibility in

negotiations, why give all the

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advantage to the other side? Part of

that was evidenced yesterday by

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somebody suggesting they will ask

for the Margaret Thatcher rebate to

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be suspended. That is as a result of

putting the date on the bill.

You

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did not agree with the Brexit

committee and think it is important

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that we set the date and time?

I

think it is perfectly reasonable to

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set the date and time and I think

these negotiations fill the time

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available. The United States and

Australia agreed a free trade deal

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between April 2003 and February

2004. These things don't need to be

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interm Knabl if both sides want to

agree. I think the British

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electorate would be very concerned

if nearly three years after the vote

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to leave, we still hadn't left. I

think most people expected that we

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would have left by now. The

negotiations realistically to get

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through the approval of the European

Parliament and so on need to be

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completed by at the end of next

year, going up to the last minute I

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don't think is real is tick.

To move

on to talk about a trade deal and

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getting that done, the EU need to

agree to move on and we need to

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settle the divorce, cabinet are

going to be talking about the amount

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that needs to be spent on that,

Stephen what manned, are you happy

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for the Government to offer more?

I

hope that the Government will stick

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to the Florence speech in terms of

ensuring that we fulfil our

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liabilities and obligations. I'm not

clear exactly whether that is 20

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billion or 40 billion and I'm not

sure the government is. If part of

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the divorce bill is then some

settlement for getting the trade

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deal, we will need to examine that

carefully.

Jacob Rees Mogg, is this

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that might spark another war in the

party if the cabinet suggest they're

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prepared to pay more?

I think we

need to go back to what you said,

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that the - the EU said they want us

to settle the money first. The

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Government doesn't need to follow

that. They need our money. If we

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don't pay any money for the final 21

months of the framework, the EU has

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about 20 billion pounds gap in its

finances and it has no legal

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requirement to borrow. So it

insolvents or the Germans and the

0:19:450:19:49

others pay more. So our position on

money is very strong and we

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shouldn't fall into the trap of

thinking just because Mr Barnier

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said it it is as if he has received

tablets of stone like Moses, he has

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not.

There is a sense that the

Government feels a mo generous offer

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would set a good tone, the kind of

approach that Jacob Rees Mogg

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suggests would not make for smooth

relations.

It probably wouldn't. But

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we have to be clear what we are

paying for and what we are getting.

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No one is suggesting we should hand

over money without proper scrutiny.

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It may be appropriate to put money

to facilitate international trade to

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secure jobs. We have to be careful

about the analysis about what the

0:20:370:20:41

scale and size of Brexit dividend is

and the size of payments will be.

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You mustn't confuse gross and net

and there is disagreement about some

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of the numbers.

On that, Jacob Rees

Mogg in his budget for Brexit

0:20:530:20:59

suggests in five years time we would

have a 135 billion Brexit bonus. Do

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you think it is real is tick.

He is

using some analysis that has some

0:21:050:21:12

flaws. It is predicting a price drop

in the United Kingdom of 10%. Tariff

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drops will only be 3 or 4%. It is

predicting huge productivity gains,

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the likes of which we have not seen

in 20 years. Thirdly, despite his

0:21:250:21:30

view on modellers there is evidence

that they weren't and if you go into

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the detail of the analysis, some of

the data is 14 years out of date.

0:21:360:21:43

Jacob Rees Mogg, you're being

hopelessly optimistic?

I don't think

0:21:430:21:48

that right. I think the fall in

prices comes because you make the

0:21:480:21:53

economy more competitive and you

take away tariffs which reduces the

0:21:530:21:57

price of food by 20%. That is a big

reduction. Bear in mind that the

0:21:570:22:04

biggest tariffs hit food, clothing

and foot wear that, harm the poorest

0:22:040:22:08

in society the most. The gains from

productivity come from is in

0:22:080:22:15

additional tariffs. Leading to other

saving and further investment I

0:22:150:22:23

think the modelling done by the

professor is as good as modelling

0:22:230:22:26

can be. That doesn't mean it is

infallible. The failure of gravity

0:22:260:22:32

model is well known.

Michael Gove

was accused of auditioning for the

0:22:320:22:39

job of Chancellor by using long

words. Do you know any good long

0:22:390:22:46

economic words?

I don't think that

we want to get into this type of

0:22:460:22:50

business actually. I think all

Conservatives and Steven and I very

0:22:500:22:54

much agree on this, want to show as

united a front as we can manage.

0:22:540:23:00

There are differences on some

aspects of policy, but in terms of

0:23:000:23:04

individuals we want to stand

together and support the best

0:23:040:23:06

interests of the government.

Thank

you.

0:23:060:23:12

Brexit Secretary David Davis

was in Berlin this week trying

0:23:120:23:14

to win the support of business

leaders there for a comprehensive

0:23:140:23:16

free trade deal with the EU.

0:23:160:23:18

He warned them against putting

'politics above prosperity'

0:23:180:23:21

and reportedly got a bit

of a frosty reception.

0:23:210:23:26

Well, the former Labour MP

Gisela Stuart was one of the leaders

0:23:260:23:29

of the Vote Leave referendum

campaign.

0:23:290:23:30

We travelled with Gisela to Germany

to meet the business leaders

0:23:300:23:33

she says will help secure a good

trade deal for the UK.

0:23:330:23:36

Here's her film.

0:23:360:23:39

I was born and brought up

in this part of Germany,

0:23:460:23:49

and although I've lived in the UK

for the past 40 years,

0:23:490:23:52

and represented the constituency

of Birmingham and Edgbaston for 20

0:23:520:23:56

years, my family still live here,

and I've kept many links.

0:23:560:24:01

I was chair of Vote Leave,

and together with only a handful

0:24:040:24:07

of other Labour MPs,

we campaigned to leave

0:24:070:24:09

the European Union because we

thought the country would be

0:24:090:24:12

better off outside.

0:24:120:24:14

It's hard to remember now, but back

in the 1970s, when we joined

0:24:140:24:17

the European Economic Community,

people thought that by joining

0:24:170:24:21

the club we would see the kind

of economic miracle Germany

0:24:210:24:25

experienced in the '70s back home.

0:24:250:24:28

The "Deutsche Wirtschaftswunder"

would come to Britain.

0:24:280:24:30

But, of course, it didn't.

0:24:300:24:35

Within a few short years

of the devastation of World War II,

0:24:370:24:40

Germany had emerged as

the largest economy in Europe.

0:24:400:24:43

Germany's extraordinary

success is down to

0:24:430:24:44

the pragmatism of its business.

0:24:440:24:49

German Mittelstand is family

dominated, forward-thinking,

0:24:490:24:54

long-term thinking, reliability,

are very important values.

0:24:540:25:00

Changing moods on a political

landscape and changing frameworks

0:25:000:25:02

are toxic for our way of doing

business, and we want

0:25:020:25:05

that to go away.

0:25:050:25:12

German business is not given

to making big political statements

0:25:120:25:17

out of step with government policy,

but talk to those in decision-making

0:25:170:25:20

positions, and it is clear

that they want to secure a good deal

0:25:200:25:23

with the United Kingdom.

0:25:230:25:26

BMW employs almost 90,000

people here in Germany,

0:25:260:25:29

and exports just under

1 million cars annually.

0:25:290:25:33

The UK is a vital market.

0:25:330:25:38

What we are really seeking right now

is more clarity, more certainty,

0:25:380:25:42

because in our cycle of investment,

cycle of development,

0:25:420:25:46

it's about a seven-year or so period

that we look at,

0:25:460:25:51

but we are now, of course, starting

to think about what comes next,

0:25:510:25:55

and what we need to see now

is what is going to be

0:25:550:25:58

the trading relationship,

how are the logistics going to look,

0:25:580:26:01

what is going to be

the requirements for people

0:26:010:26:03

moving across the continent?

0:26:030:26:06

Because all of these things

are important to us today.

0:26:060:26:08

And, by the way, they will be just

as important tomorrow.

0:26:080:26:12

Berlin is well aware that

if the European Commission

0:26:120:26:14

is allowed to put up trade barriers

against Britain, it will be

0:26:140:26:18

German business, German consumers

and German employees

0:26:180:26:20

who will suffer.

0:26:200:26:24

TRANSLATION:

I think it's very

important that we complete

0:26:240:26:26

the first phase successfully.

0:26:260:26:28

The first phase of the negotiations,

which looks at the financial

0:26:280:26:32

consequences of Great Britain

leaving the EU.

0:26:320:26:34

And then it's not a question

of punishment payments.

0:26:340:26:38

It's about when you are part

of a multilayer, contractual

0:26:380:26:40

obligation and you want to leave

that, then of course it takes

0:26:400:26:44

a whole lot of obligations

which you have to deal with,

0:26:440:26:47

so both sides are satisfied and can

live with the consequences.

0:26:470:26:56

It isn't everyone's interests

for the UK to part on good terms.

0:26:560:27:00

Of course there was going to be

upset when the UK voted to leave,

0:27:000:27:04

but creating uncertainty over

the terms of UK's exit will simply

0:27:040:27:07

have a disruptive effect

on exports to UK markets.

0:27:070:27:12

Far better to have a sensible,

amicable negotiation that results

0:27:120:27:16

both sides being able to trade

together and work

0:27:160:27:18

together post-Brexit.

0:27:180:27:25

Markus Krall is managing

director of Goetzpartners,

0:27:250:27:27

and heads the Financial

Institution Industry Group.

0:27:270:27:28

Is it true to say that,

if we negotiate Brexit well,

0:27:280:27:34

then a good Brexit can actually

strengthen the United Kingdom,

0:27:340:27:36

the European Union and Germany?

0:27:360:27:37

It's absolutely true.

0:27:370:27:39

I think that this

is about two things.

0:27:390:27:42

One, about proving that

free trade is possible

0:27:420:27:47

between a European Union that is

smaller and a former member country.

0:27:470:27:51

If you don't prove that free

trade is possible there,

0:27:510:27:54

then the question becomes,

what is Europe standing for?

0:27:540:27:58

Number two is, I also

believe the free trade,

0:27:580:28:03

free market and democratic and less

bureaucratic approach that Britain

0:28:030:28:07

has chosen as the path

into the future is a role

0:28:070:28:09

model for Europe.

0:28:090:28:12

The time has come both

for the United Kingdom

0:28:120:28:15

and for the EU to be more clear

about what kind of

0:28:150:28:18

deal we can achieve.

0:28:180:28:20

Both sides need to be bold.

0:28:200:28:23

As long as we remain open to free

trade and sensible co-operation,

0:28:230:28:26

we can arrive at something that

will benefit both sides.

0:28:260:28:31

But one thing's obvious -

if we are an open and free trading

0:28:310:28:35

economy, we've got one big

cheerleader on our side,

0:28:350:28:37

and that is German business.

0:28:370:28:43

That was Gisela Stuart

setting out her case

0:28:430:28:45

and we'll be hearing

from the opposite side

0:28:450:28:47

of the argument in the coming weeks.

0:28:470:28:49

Gisela Stuart joins us in the studio

now, as does Alastair Campbell.

0:28:490:28:51

He used to work for Tony Blair

in Number 10, set up

0:28:510:28:54

the New European Newspaper

to campaign against Brexit,

0:28:540:28:56

and is so pro-European that at this

year's Labour conference

0:28:560:28:58

he was heard playing Ode

to Joy on the bagpipes.

0:28:580:29:01

Welcome both of you.

0:29:010:29:06

We will start with your point in the

film, that you think the German

0:29:060:29:10

business once the EU to offer the UK

a generous deal because it is in

0:29:100:29:15

their interests, yet the president

of the German equivalent of the CBI

0:29:150:29:19

said that defending the single

market must be the priority for the

0:29:190:29:25

EU, and another says that the

cohesion of the remaining member

0:29:250:29:30

states remains the highest priority.

The president of the CBI just after

0:29:300:29:37

the referendum said that it would be

in nobody 's interest to introduce

0:29:370:29:42

tariffs and trade barriers. On the

UK side, I don't think there's a

0:29:420:29:50

full understanding that economic

interests are incredibly important,

0:29:500:29:53

that they are trying to cover

economic interests on the cohesion

0:29:530:30:01

of the 27. I think different

economic interests will raise the

0:30:010:30:05

head of different countries. The

German auto industry is as important

0:30:050:30:12

as the financial sector is here. The

banking crisis is far from over, but

0:30:120:30:18

the big riffs which were going on is

that the E U is losing its second

0:30:180:30:24

biggest net contributor. Countries

like Germany want a deal with the UK

0:30:240:30:29

that is a free open market. There

are other tensions in the EU that

0:30:290:30:35

wants to become more protectionist,

and that is a bad thing.

Looking at

0:30:350:30:39

the film there with the Jacob

Rees-Mogg interview. No matter what

0:30:390:30:47

side of leave you are, it is

delusional and all driven by wishful

0:30:470:30:53

thinking. You could find a

businessman who says Brexit will be

0:30:530:30:57

good for Germany. The vast bulk of

British businesses think this is a

0:30:570:31:01

disaster, as do the vast bulk of

European businesses. One of the

0:31:010:31:05

delusions on which they ran their

campaign is the idea that they need

0:31:050:31:10

us more than we need them. That is

not true.

Be you self about £80

0:31:100:31:17

billion more in goods and services

into the UK than we do to them, and

0:31:170:31:21

Germany has one of the biggest

deficits. It is in their interest.

0:31:210:31:26

Of course it is, but it is a myth

that they need us more than we need

0:31:260:31:31

them. The damage that will be done

to us, even with a good deal. Let's

0:31:310:31:38

be frank, where these negotiations

are, Theresa May is either going to

0:31:380:31:44

end up with a bad deal and dumber or

no Deal. A bad deal is bad, and a no

0:31:440:31:50

deal is a catastrophe.

You are

setting up ideas that which were not

0:31:500:31:57

there to begin with and knocking

them down. Delusional.

35 billion,

0:31:570:32:04

the Brexit bonus.

If we had a

referendum, it was a democratic

0:32:040:32:09

decision. I know you don't like it

and that a lot of business would

0:32:090:32:13

have preferred to stay with the

status quo. We have had the

0:32:130:32:18

referendum. Undermining political

institutions is in no one's

0:32:180:32:23

interests. It is functioning

democracies which lead to economic

0:32:230:32:29

stability.

Theresa May fought an

election Inc on a hard Brexit that

0:32:290:32:36

was rejected.

As we heard from BMW,

there is uncertainty for business.

0:32:360:32:49

There will be elections, European

elections, in 2019. There will be a

0:32:490:32:54

change of the Commission and the

parliament. We have a narrow window

0:32:540:32:59

to implement the mandate for the

referendum which Parliament voted

0:32:590:33:02

for. So rather than you undermining

this country, why don't you work

0:33:020:33:09

together to get the best deal?

Because we totally disagree.

You

0:33:090:33:14

don't want a good deal?

I'm in

favour of a good deal, and I could

0:33:140:33:20

give them some advice as to how they

get a good deal. First, you have a

0:33:200:33:25

cabinet that has an agreed strategy.

18 months in, they don't have that.

0:33:250:33:31

I am not undermining a deal. I am

continuing to pose questions about

0:33:310:33:36

what they are trying to do and how

they are trying to do it. This is

0:33:360:33:43

democracy. Democracy is the ability

for Parliament, which is not doing

0:33:430:33:48

its job properly, and the public, to

keep scrutinising, and if they want

0:33:480:33:52

to change their mind, having the

right to do that.

You were trying to

0:33:520:33:58

encourage the Taoiseach yesterday to

play hardball with the UK.

I am on

0:33:580:34:03

the side of the UK, and I am worried

that if we go down the path that we

0:34:030:34:08

are being taken down, and Theresa

May and Boris Johnson and the rest

0:34:080:34:12

of them, this shambolic path, we are

going to do fundamental, lasting

0:34:120:34:18

damage to the country we love. I

don't care about the Civil Aviation

0:34:180:34:22

Authority. I care about Britain. --

I don't care about the European

0:34:220:34:28

Union. If every lorry going into the

UK today was stopped for just two

0:34:280:34:37

minutes, we would create an instant

17 mile traffic jam. These people

0:34:370:34:42

just don't care...

I am not these

people!

0:34:420:34:46

people! Let us not conflate...

0:34:460:34:51

people! Let us not conflate... You

either decide that you are

0:34:510:34:54

implementing a democratic decision

of a referendum that was called and

0:34:540:34:59

over 17 million voted.

You will not

stop me debating it.

0:34:590:35:07

stop me debating it. Just as Nigel

Farage...

Stop talking about Nigel

0:35:070:35:10

Farrell Raj.

0:35:100:35:12

Farrell Raj. Vote Leave was not

Nigel Farage.

0:35:120:35:18

Nigel Farage. There is no desire in

Germany to punish the United

0:35:180:35:21

Kingdom.

0:35:210:35:25

Kingdom.

They are behaving

reasonably.

There is a battle of

0:35:250:35:28

protectionism and free market going

on. If we implement this properly,

0:35:280:35:33

give businesses the kind of

incentives they want, we can get a

0:35:330:35:38

good deal. So you want a bad deal?

You are driven by wishful thinking.

0:35:380:35:46

You are driven by wishful thinking.

Gisela Stuart, you are saying that

0:35:460:35:49

business will intervene to prevent

things like tariffs being put in

0:35:490:35:52

place? They are leaving it a bit

late to put pressure on.

You will

0:35:520:35:57

find that business is laying out the

kind of things they need to get

0:35:570:36:01

those deals. I can find as much

fault with the speed of the

0:36:010:36:05

progress, but what I really do

resent is that you are actually

0:36:050:36:10

encouraging other countries to

undermine...

Know I am not! I spoke

0:36:100:36:18

undermine...

Know I am not! I spoke

out in support of the Irish

0:36:180:36:20

Taoiseach because I spent a lot of

time with Tony Blair and his team on

0:36:200:36:24

the Good Friday Agreement. The

people who are driving this hard

0:36:240:36:28

Brexit without thinking it through,

still no answer on how you do Brexit

0:36:280:36:33

in our island without a hard border.

I think the Irish Taoiseach is right

0:36:330:36:38

to

0:36:380:36:42

to call out the government on the

incompetence and the fact they have

0:36:420:36:45

not thought it through.

You accept

the result of the referendum and the

0:36:450:36:49

fact that we will be leaving the EU?

I accept the result of the

0:36:490:36:55

referendum, but I do not accept that

the country will definitely leave,

0:36:550:37:00

because the country is entitled to

change its mind. As the chaos and

0:37:000:37:04

costs

0:37:040:37:06

costs mount, the public is entitled

to change its mind and will change

0:37:060:37:10

its mind.

There is no evidence at

the moment.

Come out with me!

Allow

0:37:100:37:17

me to finish the sentence.

0:37:170:37:20

me to finish the sentence. There is

a changing of mind happening, a

0:37:200:37:24

crystallisation.

0:37:240:37:26

crystallisation. Unlike you, I have

fought five elections and I have won

0:37:260:37:32

five elections. I have probably

spoken to more people like you.

You

0:37:320:37:37

may do, I'm just saying, come out on

the road with me...

0:37:370:37:42

the road with me...

40% of the

population in the middle just want

0:37:420:37:45

us to get on with it. What that film

showed is that

0:37:450:37:49

showed is that if you want to make

it a self-fulfilling prophecy that

0:37:490:37:53

it's a disaster, which I don't. I

want to implement a deal that is

0:37:530:37:58

good for British jobs.

0:37:580:38:00

good for British jobs. The rest of

the world is changing in terms

0:38:000:38:07

the world is changing in terms of

technology. Currently, Germany

0:38:070:38:09

hasn't even got a government, and

nobody is laughing about that.

And

0:38:090:38:14

they are stable without a

government!

Let's leave it there.

0:38:140:38:18

It's coming up to 11.40,

you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:38:190:38:22

Coming up on the programme,

we'll be looking at the latest

0:38:230:38:26

Good morning, and welcome

to Sunday Politics Scotland.

0:38:260:38:28

Coming up on the programme:

0:38:280:38:31

600 jobs are saved, but how

safe is the future of

0:38:310:38:34

skilled manufacturing in Scotland?

0:38:340:38:37

I'll be asking the Economy

Secretary Keith Brown.

0:38:370:38:40

Scottish Labour elects a new leader.

0:38:400:38:43

And its old one heads

off to the jungle.

0:38:430:38:45

What reception will await

her when she gets back?

0:38:450:38:49

And if all that's not enough

for you, how about a bit of this?

0:38:490:38:55

As Robert Burns said, the gift they

give us to see ourselves as others

0:38:550:39:01

see us.

0:39:010:39:02

It's been a rocky week

for Scotland's renewable

0:39:020:39:04

energy industry.

0:39:040:39:06

Last weekend, one of the country's

most prominent engineering firms -

0:39:060:39:08

Burntisland Fabrications -

said it was on the verge

0:39:080:39:10

of going into administration.

0:39:100:39:11

The company, which has yards in Fife

and the Western Isles,

0:39:110:39:14

is at the forefront of hopes

for a global green

0:39:140:39:16

energy revolution.

0:39:160:39:18

Last night a deal was done to save

BiFab, but the Scottish Government

0:39:180:39:21

says more long-term work is needed.

0:39:210:39:23

Andrew Black reports.

0:39:230:39:32

I am delighted to say that after two

days of intense discussions, we have

0:39:320:39:37

just reached a deal to save BiFab

from administration.

It was the news

0:39:370:39:43

everyone hoped for. Just two days

ago, the future of Burntisland

0:39:430:39:47

Fabrications hung in the balance.

Employees working without pay,

0:39:470:39:52

hoping for a rescue deal.

Burntisland Fabrications is seen as

0:39:520:39:57

a company with a promising future in

Scotland pod like offshore energy

0:39:570:39:59

sector. In 2011 it was manufacturing

this cutting-edge wave energy

0:39:590:40:06

device. Alex Salmond, then the First

Minister, described BiFab as a

0:40:060:40:12

Scottish success story. The company

even got a visit from David Cameron,

0:40:120:40:15

when he was by minister. Miller

McDonnell things are looking rosy?

0:40:150:40:19

But things were not looking so rosy

this time last week, when

0:40:190:40:25

campaign-mac announced it was going

to point administrators. The problem

0:40:250:40:28

centre on a payment dispute between

the company and the Dutch owned

0:40:280:40:32

contractor Seaway Heavy Lifting.

0:40:320:40:40

contractor Seaway Heavy Lifting.

Come on, come Hay!

By Thursday with

0:40:400:40:42

the resolution in sight, the workers

and their families marched on the

0:40:420:40:46

Scottish Parliament.

Visitors one of

the measures to come here today and

0:40:460:40:51

try to lobby Parliament and hope

they can sort it out. Grigg it has

0:40:510:40:55

not been good, no one knows what is

going to happen. That is the

0:40:550:40:59

worrying part.

Are the politicians

going to help us?

We're working for

0:40:590:41:07

nothing does now, hopefully the

Scottish Tubman can do something

0:41:070:41:10

about it and get a contract.

Inside

Holyrood, the politicians grappled

0:41:100:41:16

with the question of Carbery's

future and the future of Scotland

0:41:160:41:19

pod back entire green industry. No

how can the workforce have

0:41:190:41:24

confidence that the Government's

transition plan will have urgent

0:41:240:41:28

support for their jobs and many

others that can be generated

in an

0:41:280:41:33

industrial strategy that commits to

fossil fuel the commission and our

0:41:330:41:38

renewable industries instead?

We

have been trenchant in our

0:41:380:41:42

commitment to renewables

development.

Yesterday morning key

0:41:420:41:46

players in the Carbery dispute met

the First Minister in Edinburgh, by

0:41:460:41:52

tea-time a result to avoid

administration, but...

There are

0:41:520:41:58

still a lot of work to be done for

the long-term future of BiFab, and

0:41:580:42:02

we will be working closely with the

company and with the unions in the

0:42:020:42:07

weeks and months ahead.

This paves

the way for the future. Work any

0:42:070:42:11

renewable industry is supposed to be

the jobs of the future.

Despite the

0:42:110:42:17

last week, the organisation

representing Scotland pod like

0:42:170:42:20

renewable industry is positive about

the future.

Carbery is part of a

0:42:200:42:25

strong supply chain to serve ours in

the global market. -- BiFab is part.

0:42:250:42:31

It has got huge potential.

BiFab has

been making equipment for a major

0:42:310:42:37

offshore wind farm in the Moray

Firth. That contract will not be

0:42:370:42:41

seen through. The question now is

what needs to be done to support

0:42:410:42:45

companies like BiFab in the future.

0:42:450:42:48

So, what's gone right?

0:42:480:42:49

I'm joined now by Economy

Secretary Keith Brown,

0:42:490:42:51

who helped broker the deal.

0:42:510:42:55

Obviously it is good news that you

managed to get this arrangement made

0:42:550:43:00

yesterday, but Nicola Sturgeon was

saying now that it is not a

0:43:000:43:03

long-term deal. What does that mean?

It is very good news, especially if

0:43:030:43:08

you are an employee who was looking

to a Christmas without wages. That

0:43:080:43:13

is the most important thing. It is

worth paying tribute to the

0:43:130:43:18

workforce, trade unions, and all the

partners that came to the table to

0:43:180:43:23

work out a deal, break the logjam of

a £50 million gap. The deal we have

0:43:230:43:28

done allows us to see through the

contract which is currently there,

0:43:280:43:33

through to April next year. To keep

people employed to do that. We are

0:43:330:43:38

actively involved with some

promising early signs in making sure

0:43:380:43:43

we can win further work, see

additional capital investment, and

0:43:430:43:46

further training of the workforce.

Ayes this goes on until April? This

0:43:460:43:52

is the Moray Firth, making jackets

for offshore wind turbines?

Are you

0:43:520:43:59

saying there is no work beyond that?

There is potential for other work.

0:43:590:44:06

This is the main contractor that the

companies involved in, but there is

0:44:060:44:09

a lot of potential, because of

further prospects in the sector, but

0:44:090:44:15

one thing that has been thrown out

by this crisis during the course of

0:44:150:44:20

the week we three times had to stop

BiFab from going into

0:44:200:44:23

administration, but one of the

things that has come out of this is

0:44:230:44:26

the regard with which the workforce

is held internationally. The

0:44:260:44:30

reputation of renewables...... What

do you mean never going into

0:44:300:44:36

reputation -- Administration three

times? They had to have a deal, they

0:44:360:44:40

could not sustain a situation with

people working without wages. We

0:44:400:44:46

have managed to avoid that. There's

added certainty that these contracts

0:44:460:44:50

will be seen through to April, but

beyond that, the First Minister

0:44:500:44:54

said, there is a huge amount of work

to do. We will be actively involved

0:44:540:44:58

in working with the company to make

sure we get that longer term future.

0:44:580:45:03

There is an issue about offshore

renewables in Scotland. It was going

0:45:030:45:06

to be a great new industry, but

there are some of the biggest,

0:45:060:45:12

largest offshore wind farms in

Europe in the UK. But they are in

0:45:120:45:16

England and Wales. This one any

Moray Firth will go into service,

0:45:160:45:23

not the only one in Scotland is at

Robin Rake which is as near as a

0:45:230:45:27

legacy can get without being in

England. I has not happened in a way

0:45:270:45:31

that we thought?

0:45:310:45:36

that we thought? There are huge

offshore wind farms of Lincolnshire,

0:45:360:45:39

one of the biggest in Europe has

just been put on the north coast of

0:45:390:45:43

Wales. The Thames estuary is an

enormous one. There may be

0:45:430:45:48

potential, but why are they not here

yet when we were told this would be

0:45:480:45:51

such a great thing for Scotland?

There is a huge field and further

0:45:510:45:57

work behind that.

That is not

working yet.

This is part of the

0:45:570:46:04

process, these are the jackets...

Noes what we were told was that this

0:46:040:46:09

would be a new industry boss got in.

We would be world leaders in the

0:46:090:46:13

technology behind this. There is an

offshore renewables centre in

0:46:130:46:18

Britain, but a subpar at the moment

it is Hull where they are building a

0:46:180:46:25

huge yard. There was a post be a

guard in Leith, that doesn't seem to

0:46:250:46:30

be happening. Why didn't that happen

in Scotland in the way that we were

0:46:300:46:35

told it would? Melamed I don't

agree. Whether it is come Hay, and

0:46:350:46:39

the other company are a fundamental

part of this.

The workforce that

0:46:390:46:45

they have, the expertise, very

well-regarded centre, not just in

0:46:450:46:51

Scotland or the UK but

internationally, and we have a

0:46:510:46:54

challenge to make sure we get more

business. It is not just renewables

0:46:540:46:58

in terms of offshore wind, other

aspects, you have two...

I am not

0:46:580:47:05

trying to undermine the position

that BiFab has as a leader in the

0:47:050:47:10

thing it does, but any basic

technology, like turbines, these are

0:47:100:47:15

now companies in America and Germany

and Denmark that are now world

0:47:150:47:21

leaders. We have missed that boat. I

take your point about things coming

0:47:210:47:26

on stream, but that opportunity to

make Scotland a world leader in the

0:47:260:47:30

industry is gone.

0:47:300:47:36

industry is gone.

For my visit to

North America three weeks ago, that

0:47:360:47:39

is not the way Scotland is

perceived. We are a centre of

0:47:390:47:43

excellence in renewables, despite

what you say, we are perceived to be

0:47:430:47:48

excellent, we have pushed the

boundaries in terms of renewables by

0:47:480:47:51

the Parkview deals to put it centre

of what we're doing in terms of that

0:47:510:47:55

ship from oil and gas and we are

very much involved as is come Hay.

0:47:550:48:00

We have that international

reputation.

In which particular

0:48:000:48:05

technology?

What is being done

currently at BiFab, the jackets.

0:48:050:48:15

There is not the same expertise in

the North America than it is here,

0:48:150:48:18

and has a lot of interest over their

bodies we are doing here. It is our

0:48:180:48:23

job to continue to put that positive

case of what we're doing in

0:48:230:48:26

Scotland, that is part of the reason

we're have managed to get the

0:48:260:48:29

successful resolution to this

particular problem. That is why we

0:48:290:48:33

have a positive future with Mane and

with the industry generally. -- with

0:48:330:48:41

BiFab. We would like to take away

the uncertainty over recent years

0:48:410:48:48

which has undermined investment. We

would like to see support and a

0:48:480:48:50

commitment to work with the Scottish

Government to increase that.

The

0:48:500:48:56

price of renewable energy is coming

down dramatically. Apparently the

0:48:560:49:02

last ten days were much cheaper than

nuclear, where it had been more

0:49:020:49:08

expensive. The Government should not

need to do anything. Under the new

0:49:080:49:13

contracts, offshore renewable in

Scotland as well as other parts of

0:49:130:49:16

the UK should be viable.

That is a

more recent development, and some

0:49:160:49:21

industry insiders will say though be

further volatility. That is recent,

0:49:210:49:26

we took the hard decisions because

of the last ten years to lead that

0:49:260:49:29

investment when that wasn't the

case. We want to try and continue to

0:49:290:49:33

give that support to the industry,

and see it joined up another part of

0:49:330:49:38

the

0:49:380:49:46

the supply chain. We should not rush

past the fact that this week we had

0:49:460:49:49

potentially 1400 people looking at

having Christmas without a wage and

0:49:490:49:51

are never have that. I would like to

come wind all those, including the

0:49:510:49:54

First Minister and individual

partners who closed

0:49:540:49:55

Will we ever be the Saudi Arabia of

wind power?

We have to have these

0:50:010:50:06

kind of games.

A couple of other

matters. Alex Almond, Russian

0:50:060:50:12

television. What did you make of his

decision to do that?

That is a

0:50:120:50:17

decision for him. He is a private

citizen, one with a well-known past,

0:50:170:50:22

it is decision to make things up.

What is your advice? I have never

0:50:220:50:30

been on Russia to and I do not

expect to be yet -- on it any time

0:50:300:50:35

soon. You do not approve? I know the

background to Russia today. I would

0:50:350:50:44

predict regardless of that he will

get strong viewing figures.

You do

0:50:440:50:48

not think it is damaging for his

party?

Here's an individual citizen.

0:50:480:50:54

My party is not getting involved

with Russia today, we are not part

0:50:540:50:59

of this programme. His link to the

party is obvious but it is decision

0:50:590:51:04

to make.

But people will say, this

was the chap if things had gone

0:51:040:51:09

according to plan, he would be the

First Minister of an independent

0:51:090:51:13

Scotland. Here he is working for a

channel which many people see

0:51:130:51:18

perceived as being linked to

Vladimir Putin.

If he was First

0:51:180:51:22

Minister of an independent Scotland,

he would not be making this

0:51:220:51:26

programme.

What a wonderful and is.

Kezia Dugdale, she is off to "I'm a

0:51:260:51:32

Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here". This

is not just a matter for Labour, it

0:51:320:51:38

is a matter of what parliamentarians

should be doing.

The fundamental

0:51:380:51:42

point is this, the scene was -- the

same was for Nadine Doris, which is

0:51:420:51:50

the primarily job which is to

represent people. What strikes me as

0:51:500:51:57

in this we have Kezia Dugdale

flowing off to Australia, we have

0:51:570:52:02

Ruth Davidson going to the great

British

0:52:020:52:10

British bake off,.

There has been

talk of suspension. Is that in your

0:52:100:52:15

view a matter for the Scottish

Labour Party or of the Scottish

0:52:150:52:20

parliament?

It is a matter for the

Scottish Labour Party. It is a

0:52:200:52:24

matter of how her party views her

absence from her primary job, as an

0:52:240:52:31

MSP.

Thank you for joining us this

morning.

0:52:310:52:33

The Scottish Labour Party has

elected a new leader.

0:52:330:52:35

Richard Leonard, a Corbyn loyalist,

comfortably defeated

0:52:350:52:37

his rival, Anas Sarwar.

0:52:370:52:38

Mr Leonard has promised to follow

a more 'radical policy agenda',

0:52:380:52:41

but when we invited him

to our programme to tell us

0:52:410:52:44

more about his plans

for the party, he declined.

0:52:440:52:46

However, we spoke to one of his main

supporters, Neil Findlay,

0:52:460:52:49

about Labour's future, and former

leader Kezia Dugdale's decision

0:52:490:52:53

to appear in the TV show "I'm

a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here".

0:52:530:53:01

Your man won. You must be delighted?

Absolutely delighted. Delighted for

0:53:010:53:07

Richard on a personal level but

politically I think this is the way

0:53:070:53:13

that Scottish Labour Party wants to

go forward. And we are completely

0:53:130:53:20

holding a different agenda.

I am

delighted. Where are you worried

0:53:200:53:23

about how big the margin was?

From

the beginning I thought it would be

0:53:230:53:30

very close. But I was pleased with

the margin of victory. And I think

0:53:300:53:35

it gives them a strong mandate.

Where is he? We asked on the

0:53:350:53:42

programme today. It is his first day

as leader of Scottish Labour, why

0:53:420:53:47

isn't he here to explain what he

wants to do?

I would expect after

0:53:470:53:51

nine weeks of a very intense

campaign, I hope he is having a rest

0:53:510:53:56

and time with his family. I

certainly would be after such an

0:53:560:54:00

intense period of campaigning.

No

you would not be. You would be

0:54:000:54:05

saying, here I am. I will tell you

why this is so exciting.

There is

0:54:050:54:09

plenty of time for that, Gordon.

People underestimate the intensity

0:54:090:54:15

of being involved in a campaign like

that. It is right that people spent

0:54:150:54:19

time with their family.

I think that

is right. He is not here and in the

0:54:190:54:25

news. Another person who is in the

news are not here, is Kezia Dugdale

0:54:250:54:29

because she is flying off to

Australia. What do you make of her

0:54:290:54:35

decision to appear on "I'm a

Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here"?

0:54:350:54:39

Utterly ludicrous. We have a

situation in the run-up to the

0:54:390:54:44

budget in Scotland where local

government is on its knees, where

0:54:440:54:49

the NHS has shown pressures like

never before, when people's living

0:54:490:54:55

standards of living and the expect

their MPs, MSPs and elective

0:54:550:55:02

representatives to be fighting on

their behalf. I do not think people

0:55:020:55:06

would expect them to jet off around

the world and sit around a campfire,

0:55:060:55:11

eating kangaroo's appendage.

What

would you say to people in the

0:55:110:55:18

Labour Party. There are some

supportive of Kezia Dugdale who say,

0:55:180:55:23

come on, we are being po-faced year,

it is a bit of fun.

Well, I think it

0:55:230:55:30

demeans politics when people get

involved in that. We have a very

0:55:300:55:35

serious job to do. People out there

are struggling and there's huge

0:55:350:55:39

pressures on public services. That

is the job we should be doing. I

0:55:390:55:43

take my job very seriously, so do my

colleagues, and I think they would

0:55:430:55:48

expect better.

The other person from

Labour who has been in the news this

0:55:480:55:54

week is Alec Crowley, in a much more

serious sense. He has been suspended

0:55:540:55:59

from the Labour Party pending

investigation of the case. Do you

0:55:590:56:03

think that was the correct decision,

to suspend?

0:56:030:56:12

to suspend?

-- Alex Rowley. I think

this whole thing has developed

0:56:120:56:15

around harassment is a very worrying

one. We have to be very supportive

0:56:150:56:21

of particularly the women who are

making complaints and who are

0:56:210:56:26

alleging wrong behaviour. We have to

be supporting them. But we also have

0:56:260:56:31

to be very careful about those who

are accused of misbehaviour and

0:56:310:56:35

there has to be due process going

through. Any workplace where I have

0:56:350:56:40

been in where someone has been

involved in misconduct, there is a

0:56:400:56:44

due process that takes place and

then a decision is made on whether

0:56:440:56:48

they are guilty or innocent. I think

we have to be very careful in this.

0:56:480:56:54

I am taking... Can I take from what

you have said that you think you may

0:56:540:56:57

be should not have been suspended?

The Labour Party has a process. That

0:56:570:57:03

process will be gone through. The

outcome of that will be there for

0:57:030:57:08

everyone to see.

We know that. But

should he have been suspended or

0:57:080:57:15

left in place pending that?

I do not

know all the details of the case. I

0:57:150:57:19

have only read one side, only what

has been in the media and that is a

0:57:190:57:27

one-sided view of events. I stress

for the woman who made those

0:57:270:57:31

complaints, this is a very serious

issue and I hope that she is being

0:57:310:57:36

supported. Just as I hope there are

systems in place to support anyone

0:57:360:57:39

who is accused of this.

The

challenges facing Scottish Labour. I

0:57:390:57:45

think it was Richard Lehnert who

kept pointing out that although you

0:57:450:57:48

did well relatively in the recent

general election in Scotland,

0:57:480:57:53

perhaps better than you expected to

do yourself, that actually there was

0:57:530:57:59

an optical illusion going on because

Labour only gain 10,000 votes. What

0:57:590:58:03

do you do to try and get their

carbon phenomenon that is sweeping

0:58:030:58:09

up here.

0:58:090:58:19

-- Corbyn.

We have someone who has

the same views as Jeremy Corbyn and

0:58:200:58:24

fitting that forward in the

manifesto.

We have a credible

0:58:240:58:29

leader. Even at the level of

membership, there has been a bit of

0:58:290:58:34

an increase in membership in

Scotland, but nothing like the

0:58:340:58:37

Labour in England. They see the

Labour Party is the biggest Labour

0:58:370:58:43

Party in Europe. How do you get that

momentum?

What we found on the

0:58:430:58:48

doorstep in the election going, we

like what the manifesto is saying,

0:58:480:58:53

we really like Corbyn, but we do not

know about Scottish Labour. The

0:58:530:59:00

thought that Scottish Labour was out

of kilter of what was being said in

0:59:000:59:03

the manifesto. Now I think they will

be much more aligned. Richard will

0:59:030:59:08

be his own man. You must be sure

about that. But I think it will be

0:59:080:59:14

more in line and I think it is much

more credible that someone like

0:59:140:59:18

Richard carries that message for the

many not the few.

So you would like

0:59:180:59:25

to see an uptake in membership?

Of

course. I think people who have been

0:59:250:59:31

questioning whether Scottish Labour

is reflective of the mood across...

0:59:310:59:34

Just a moment. You have asked me a

question, I need to answer it. I

0:59:340:59:41

think people can come and join as

supporters.

What I wanted to do was

0:59:410:59:47

pick up on something you said.

During people -- the election people

0:59:470:59:51

thought Scottish Labour was not a

line. Where the telling you that

0:59:510:59:55

Scottish Labour was not left wing

enough, well they tell you and it is

0:59:551:00:01

something that both Anas Sarwar and

Richard Lehnert said during the

1:00:011:00:06

election, Scottish Labour were

wobbly regarding independence.

--

1:00:061:00:12

Richard Lehnert. In the last week of

that election campaign, we heard

1:00:121:00:17

Nicola Sturgeon saying that if you

want Corbyn's politics you have two

1:00:171:00:23

vote SNP. Why did they put that out?

The new that Labour voters, who were

1:00:231:00:29

previously voters who had voted SNP,

were no going back to Labour. If we

1:00:291:00:34

had focused on the manifesto about

public services instead of banging

1:00:341:00:39

on about the referendum again, then

I think we would have had more than

1:00:391:00:43

seven seats.

This has to be sourced

a yes or no answers, do you want a

1:00:431:00:52

job in Richard's team?

I have never

asked the Labour leader for a job

1:00:521:00:57

now and I will not ask now.

If he

asked you for help will you help? I

1:00:571:01:02

will help if he asks. Should Anas

Sarwar have our role in the team?

It

1:01:021:01:10

is up to him. I would have the

conversation with Anas Sarwar and

1:01:101:01:18

appoint him.

Thank you.

1:01:181:01:21

Now, this week universities revealed

how they hoped to meet

1:01:211:01:23

Scottish Government targets to raise

the number of students

1:01:231:01:25

from disadvantaged areas.

1:01:251:01:26

By 2030, the Government wants

at least a fifth of the students

1:01:261:01:29

at every single university to come

from a disadvantaged background.

1:01:291:01:32

Just now, only two

universities meet that target.

1:01:321:01:34

Our education correspondent

Jamie McIvor reports.

1:01:341:01:43

Decades ago, University was for the

privileged few. Today's student

1:01:431:01:47

numbers hover around historic high.

What was your favourite thing?

1:01:471:01:52

Kelsey is the first from her family

to secure her place and realise she

1:01:521:01:56

can be a role model.

It does set an

example for my little sister and

1:01:561:02:01

cousin 's as well if they see

someone they know who has been to

1:02:011:02:05

university, it might inspire them to

go.

Kelsey helps with the University

1:02:051:02:09

out reach scheme, helping children

in primary schools in disadvantaged

1:02:091:02:15

areas. This is for primary five

students. Part of a wide-ranging

1:02:151:02:20

strategy.

We believe in early

intervention. We will work in

1:02:201:02:26

primary schools, early years,

secondary schools and colleges. It

1:02:261:02:29

is to allow families and children to

grasp the key to further education,

1:02:291:02:36

especially when barriers come into

place.

Glasgow Caledonian University

1:02:361:02:40

already meets these targets. The

older ones have fewer students from

1:02:401:02:47

disadvantaged areas and require

better exam results to get in.

1:02:471:02:53

Mischa is studying medicine in

Glasgow University.

I think Glasgow

1:02:531:02:57

is diverse and I feel in alternative

ways diverse. No one would be

1:02:571:03:04

disadvantaged coming to Glasgow, as

long as they have the requirements

1:03:041:03:08

they need further course, I do not

think they would be disadvantaged.

1:03:081:03:14

It is a good environment. Any

suggestion older universities are

1:03:141:03:19

only from youngsters from back --

better off backgrounds are nonsense.

1:03:191:03:22

They are the ones facing wider

challenges facing axis. Key to this

1:03:221:03:30

is going to a system that faces --

places more emphasis on exam

1:03:301:03:37

results. Just as long as the exam

results they got were over a certain

1:03:371:03:44

level.

The average level at the

moment of numbers coming in from

1:03:441:03:52

disadvantaged areas, we recognise

the scale of the challenge going

1:03:521:03:57

forward. 12 years is the target. We

feel everyone can improve at the

1:03:571:04:02

pace we have over the past ten, 12

years, we should manage to reach

1:04:021:04:08

that target.

The Scottish Government

feared their plans will not go far

1:04:081:04:13

enough. The policy is to increase

the number of new students from

1:04:131:04:17

disadvantaged areas but universities

want to be sure the people they give

1:04:171:04:21

places too will not drop out after a

few months because they find a

1:04:211:04:25

course too hard. And it begs another

question. Are universities being

1:04:251:04:32

expected to carry too much of the

burden to create up equal playing

1:04:321:04:36

field. And should there be more on

tackling poverty and disadvantage

1:04:361:04:43

itself. To make sure those from

disadvantaged areas can get the same

1:04:431:04:47

grades as others. It is not an easy

circle to Square, especially for a

1:04:471:04:53

government who has told voters to

judge them on squaring it.

1:04:531:04:56

Its time now to take

a look back over events,

1:04:591:05:01

and to the week ahead.

1:05:011:05:04

Joining me today is Margaret Smith,

former Liberal Democrat MSP,

1:05:041:05:07

and political commentator

and former Chief of Staff

1:05:071:05:09

to Alex Salmond, Geoff Aberdein.

1:05:091:05:17

Kezia Dugdale, it was interesting

that what the band had to say was

1:05:171:05:20

positively moderate compared to what

Neil Findlay had to say.

1:05:201:05:23

Extraordinary decision. An

incredible platform for her, what we

1:05:231:05:29

know that in the past this has

really backfired against people who

1:05:291:05:33

do this, George Galloway, Tommy

Sheridan. But I will be kind to her.

1:05:331:05:39

I think it is only 2-macro weeks,

and it is an opportunity for her, as

1:05:391:05:47

she is looking to go beyond

Holyrood. -- only two weeks. This is

1:05:471:05:52

a signal from her that she will not

finish her days after working as an

1:05:521:05:56

MSP she has got her sights set

somewhere else.

It is clearly a

1:05:561:06:01

risk, and are legitimate criticisms

of the decision. But how often does

1:06:011:06:06

a politician get an opportunity to

comedic take their message to 10

1:06:061:06:10

million people a night? We are

always discussing how engage the

1:06:101:06:13

younger voters are, maybe this is

the way. We should public have my

1:06:131:06:19

jumpers after she has been on and

analyse better then.

Richard

1:06:191:06:23

Leonard? He has won the election. I

am not just making a point about our

1:06:231:06:29

programme that he has not here, but

he is going out this afternoon to do

1:06:291:06:34

campaigning in a council by-election

in Rutherglen. He is going to do a

1:06:341:06:38

photo opportunity, but refused to

any questions from the media. Seems

1:06:381:06:42

bizarre given he has just been

elected.

It is a little bit strange.

1:06:421:06:48

The problem facing the Labour Party

is they have had seven leaders in

1:06:481:06:51

ten years. They need a credible

message and a credible messenger.

1:06:511:06:56

How can you gain that credible

message if you keep turning over

1:06:561:07:00

leaders? What other the differences

in opinion, I think the Labour Party

1:07:001:07:05

need to get behind their leader and

get some longevity and continuity to

1:07:051:07:10

make a sustained challenge.

Did it

stop the backbiting. Can they do

1:07:101:07:15

that?

They have do. It is not a

question whether we think they can,

1:07:151:07:18

they have two. They had to make an

imprint. One thing most people

1:07:181:07:25

except if that Scotland needs a

strong Labour Party, to take...

1:07:251:07:33

Slightly surprisingly is not here,

and you know all about running small

1:07:331:07:38

parties, Labour is not the

second-biggest in the country. It is

1:07:381:07:43

the third party in Scotland. This is

the candidate who does not have a

1:07:431:07:46

public profile compared to the

others.

Easily a year in there, most

1:07:461:07:52

people don't know who hears. This is

a great opportunity for him to top

1:07:521:07:56

to the nation and say, this is what

I come about. The positives of what

1:07:561:08:00

you said so far is that he is

focused on policy rather than

1:08:001:08:04

because that you should. The

positives for the result for him is

1:08:041:08:08

that yes, he got the trade union

backing that we expected, but he

1:08:081:08:11

also got the backing of the

membership, that is imported.

1:08:111:08:24

membership, that is imported.

There

are are huge challenges for him, but

1:08:241:08:26

huge opportunities. There are a lot

of seats in the general election

1:08:261:08:28

granny did not do better than they

thought, but they are running the

1:08:281:08:31

SNP quite close. There is a lot of

potential.

Scotland will become more

1:08:311:08:33

important with him as the leader,

because Jeremy Corbyn is coming up

1:08:331:08:36

next week, looking at 18 seats out

of the sick before he has to win to

1:08:361:08:41

form a Government, the allies

himself to Jeremy Corbyn, and I

1:08:411:08:45

think he has got a good opportunity,

the first thing he has to do is

1:08:451:08:50

bring in all the people including

Anas Sarwar who are not seen as his

1:08:501:08:54

supporters, he has only had a

handful of people in the

1:08:541:08:57

parliamentary group who have

supported him, he has to get a big

1:08:571:09:01

approach.

That is a question for

him. Whether he can put a team

1:09:011:09:05

together. It is going to rely on

people who did not support him,

1:09:051:09:09

because parliamentarians do not

support him. They will have to be

1:09:091:09:12

willing to say, despite the fact

that we supported Anas Sarwar, we

1:09:121:09:17

will serve all your team. Anas

Sarwar to take a lead on that.

I

1:09:171:09:22

would like to see him do that. You

need compromise. If you did not like

1:09:221:09:28

the winner, respect the boat went

the way it did. The Labour Party in

1:09:281:09:32

Scotland make a sustained challenge

in Scottish politics again, the need

1:09:321:09:36

to be united. That is something they

haven't been any number of years.

1:09:361:09:40

Alex Salmond on Russian television.

Let's let's have a look.

Hello. And

1:09:401:09:46

welcome to the very first episode of

the Alex Salmond Show. I am looking

1:09:461:09:50

forward to you joining me every week

as we host politicians, stars of

1:09:501:09:57

stage and screen, business

personalities, influenza leaders and

1:09:571:10:00

those who want to be any of the

above. As Robert Burns said, how

1:10:001:10:05

poor the gift they give us to see

ourselves as others see us.

Nicola

1:10:051:10:10

Sturgeon said that she had been

asked for her advice she would have

1:10:101:10:14

said, maybe not. You used to be his

adviser.

Abbott public had been a

1:10:141:10:21

Nicola's camp, and I have told Alex

that. I spoke to him afterwards. He

1:10:211:10:30

knows my views. I also respect the

fact that he is a private citizen

1:10:301:10:33

and he has an opportunity to

broadcast his views, he said he will

1:10:331:10:37

do it without fear or favour, I

think this show this week showed it

1:10:371:10:41

was a good effort in that direction.

The political probably SNP is that

1:10:411:10:46

the opposition parties will drag

this art at every opportunity as

1:10:461:10:49

long as that show goes on, and even

if it stops.

Absolutely. Alex has

1:10:491:10:57

taken this decision, he knew there

would be negative reaction, he is

1:10:571:11:01

not silly, heat it is his job to

present a show that deals with that

1:11:011:11:05

criticism. It will be a difficult

sell, but if any one can do it, he

1:11:051:11:08

can.

Your job is secure, Gordon. He

is not going to come here and

1:11:081:11:16

challenge you on the basis of what

we have seen. I don't think so. It

1:11:161:11:22

is a credibility issue. It gives

credible to two Russia Today, and to

1:11:221:11:26

a state funded TV company when

basically the Russians have an

1:11:261:11:32

approach to journalism and LGBT

rights and human rights which is not

1:11:321:11:38

something that the SNP wants to be

associated with. It gives a

1:11:381:11:43

credibility to Alex. I cannot help

but think there is a lot of other

1:11:431:11:46

people who would have given Alex

Salmond, given his little

1:11:461:11:50

background, a job before he had to

go and take the money from them.

He

1:11:501:11:55

is prominent enough that a lot of

politicians go on this circuit, big

1:11:551:12:03

speeches, company boards, becoming

involved in think tanks, Alex

1:12:031:12:09

Salmond is at least of a status to

do that.

Yes, when we take each

1:12:091:12:13

other he said that, as the often

said in Scottish politics, the more

1:12:131:12:19

I talk about I am known, but I said,

that everyone knows you already. He

1:12:191:12:23

did not need the extra status. Let

see if you can create a show without

1:12:231:12:29

fear, without intervention, and the

same of Kezia Dugdale, we will judge

1:12:291:12:33

it on its merits. But it is not a...

It is a difficult sell.

BiFab, great

1:12:331:12:41

news. There is this issue of whether

Scotland... That company can get

1:12:411:12:51

some deal in the longer term. And

also whether renewables is really

1:12:511:12:56

going to be in Scotland, what we

thought it was going to be.

The

1:12:561:13:00

first thing is to say it is

fantastic news, and there are

1:13:001:13:04

hundreds of families in the run-up

to Christmas now know they have

1:13:041:13:08

their jobs secure. It is this big

question going forward, not only the

1:13:081:13:13

Scottish Government but all the

opposition parties are wedded to the

1:13:131:13:16

fact that renewables was the future,

and Scotland's infrastructure and

1:13:161:13:21

industry. This shows us how

precarious that is. Nicola was often

1:13:211:13:27

on this week at the UN climate

conference, this is something which

1:13:271:13:31

has got fundamental backing and the

Scottish Government did a good job

1:13:311:13:34

in the last few days in terms of

turning this around, but it does

1:13:341:13:38

show how precarious it is and I

think that is something of a have to

1:13:381:13:41

work on.

Your analysis of the future

of the Goebbels, but we are

1:13:411:13:45

completely out of time.

1:13:451:13:47

That's all from the us this week.

1:13:471:13:48

I'll be back at the

same time next week.

1:13:481:13:50

Until then, goodbye.

1:13:501:13:56

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