26/11/2017 Sunday Politics Scotland


26/11/2017

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Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning everyone and welcome

to the Sunday Politics.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

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And this is your essential briefing

on everything that's

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happening this Sunday morning

in the world of politics.

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Ireland says it will "continue

to play tough until the end"

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over the Irish border.

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As Dublin threatens

to derail Brexit trade

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talks, vice-president

of the European Parliament Mairead

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McGuiness tells us why she thinks

a hard border would cause havoc.

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Leading Brexiteer and former

Northern Ireland Secretary Owen

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Paterson will debate with her live.

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It was billed as a make or break

moment for the Chancellor -

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Phillip Hammond appears to have

avoided an omni or even

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a mini-shambles.

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We'll get Budget reaction

from the man who last month tried

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to topple Theresa May -

former Tory Chairman, Grant Shapps.

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And what did the Chancellor

do for the North?

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How affects it was Labour's

response?

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And on Sunday Politics Scotland -

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resignation,

special leave and senior officers

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being being investigated

for crime and misconduct I'll ask

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For more information at 1135.

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So, no omni-shambles Budget.

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But don't worry, if you're a fan

of the shambolic you'll

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love our political panel,

Sam Coates, Zoe Williams

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and Iain Martin.

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Welcome to the programme.

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It has been the Budget that's

dominated the political week.

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There was no pasty tax

or national insurance U-turn -

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but there were sharp downgrades

for growth and productivity,

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offset by enough optimism

to cheer the Tory benches.

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This week's Budget was billed as

a make or break for Philip Hammond.

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His last effort in March contained

a manifesto-mangling national

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insurance rise which lasted

barely a week.

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Humiliated today, Chancellor?

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Will you resign?

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This time, his cheery demeanour

was perhaps designed

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to confound his critics

who think his outlook on Brexit

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is, well, miserable.

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What he's doing is very

close to sabotage.

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Regrettably, our productivity

performance continues to disappoint.

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But the downbeat tone

wasn't down to Hammond,

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it was the independent Office

for Budget Responsibility,

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the lower productivity projections

lead to growth forecasts

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of less than 2%.

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Here's the new realistic forecast,

average growth of just 1.4% a year.

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A slowdown that won't go away.

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The Chancellor may not have

been able to drive up

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productivity and growth,

but he has a cunning plan to remove

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the need to drive at all.

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David Cameron's old mate

Jeremy Clarkson is reported to be

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less than impressed.

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Jeremy Clarkson doesn't like them.

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But there are many other good

reasons to pursue this technology.

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So today we step up

our support for it.

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Sorry, Jeremy, but definitely not

the first time you've been

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snubbed by Hammond and May.

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More money for the English health

service, a Brexit fund

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and abolishing stamp duty

for first-time buyers

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lifted the mood.

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I commend this

statement to the house.

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But senior figures in the NHS said

the new money was not enough

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and less, in this Budget at least,

than the amount pledged for Brexit,

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giving some Remainers

plenty of fun on Twitter.

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It turned out the stamp duty

changes would mainly help

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people selling a house,

not buying them.

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Tweaks to the Universal Credit

system soothed Tory concerns,

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but they didn't calm

the Labour leader.

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Uncaring!

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The uncaring, uncooth attitude

of certain members opposite!

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Order!

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Order!

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And his Shadow Chancellor had

some number trouble.

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How much do we now spend on paying

the interest of our national debt.

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A lot.

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How much?

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Well, I'll give you the figure.

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I'll send you a note on the figure.

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You don't know?

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I know the figure...

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How much?

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I'll send it.

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Well, you tell me now.

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The forecast may be sticky,

but at least the Daily Mail

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had a positive outlook.

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Phil was no longer

a miserable donkey.

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And by the end of the week,

the Chancellor could still smile.

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He might even stay in Number 11

long enough to deliver

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next year's Budget.

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We're joined now by the former

Conservative Party

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Chairman, Grant Shapps.

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Thank you very much for coming in.

No banana skin in the Budget for

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Philip Hammond, but really dismal

growth prospects. What is the

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government back to doing wrong?

Well, first of all, he cheered up

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the backbenches by giving quite an

upbeat assessment. The economy is

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still growing, the jobs factory of

Europe. Not words we are used to

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hearing from Philip Hammond.

But

overall, growth prospects are really

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bad, they have been significantly

downgraded.

Of course, the really

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big story is the Office for Budget

Responsibility say we are going to

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grow at 1.5%, not 2%. That is a real

problem. I thought Philip's

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presentation of the issue was

interesting. He said this is of the

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outside of our control, it is the

office of Budget response ability.

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It is to do with productivity, who

knows what that is made up of? That

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sort of excuses get mug from having

to do anything. There are things we

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can do to attract business to this

country. You have the tax base, the

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attitude towards business. We spent

quite a while looking like we were

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not interested in business, business

being thought of as bad. I am

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pleased to see that is changing.

You

think the few has a pro-business

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attitude that wasn't there a year

ago?

We have them locked out of

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Downing Street for a while, sector

leaders could not express their

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concerns. Some conference speeches

that business as the bad guys rather

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than job creators. That seems to

have gone and I welcome it.

Why?

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Because it is not realistic to

believe that business is evil and

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bad. Business people that create the

jobs for this country, the well for

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this country...

But why do you think

the government but robust change the

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message on that?

It is hard to know

what created that. Since the

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election we have a change in

emphasis. Business leaders are now

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welcomed to come and talk to the

Prime Minister and the Chancellor

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about what is going on. One thing we

could do now, we are leaving Europe,

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we had all of those red tape

challenges in the Coalition

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Government but we always got stuck

when it got to the EU. We had to

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say, we can't do anything about that

red tape. We can now go back on

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that. I would like the cupboard to

go further and not just accept

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figures from the Office for Budget

Responsibility. I'm actually

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doubtful about that and I think that

Philip Hammond is as well. Growth of

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productivity is a difficult thing to

measure. This country trades more

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online than any other country in the

world. We are top of that league

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table. That has to be a more

efficient way to do business. Yet it

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does not seem to be reflected in

productivity.

They are forecasts,

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the productivity figures. But the

middle, things could be worse, the

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OBR say. The... Seems to say these

are the projections, we hope it

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isn't that. Is it the Buttler's job

to do something about productivity?

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The government EU has a role to

play. I started a printing business

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which still exists to this day.

Uncertainty over Brexit could lead a

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business like that to delay

purchasing a new press. One that is

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likely to be faster, less setup

time, print stuff faster.

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Uncertainty in the economy slows

that down. Of course the Government

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has a role. It cannot act the way it

treats taxation, investment, it can

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encourage businesses. Actually, I

suspect what the Office for Budget

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Responsibility has done is said, oh,

all of this uncertainty has lead to

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slower productivity and therefore we

will continue projecting forward,

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almost ad infinitum. The projections

went up five years. If we can get

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the Brexit uncertainty out of the

way...

That is what I was about to

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say. The great uncertainty is under

Brexit. We are not entering a period

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where things will be more certain

people can confidently make

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investment decisions, nobody knows

what the future trading relationship

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will be.

I think Government can help

with that. If you have a Government

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that, at its heart, fundamentally,

is singing from the same hymn sheet,

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you saw Number 10 and Number 11,

finally, a bit of banter between the

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two of them, the Chancellor and the

Prime Minister, they went out on

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Thursday and did a visit together.

You have a Cabinet meeting reported

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from Tuesday where they are agreeing

how to go forward collectively on

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Europe. If you can have the central

government working in unison, it

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gives business of evidence, it gives

the economy confidence that maybe

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you can get to faster growth by

having better productivity and more

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inward investment.

Six weeks ago you

were calling for the Prime Minister

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to stand down. You were outed as

leading a coup against her. Have you

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changed your mind?

I saw your

lead-in, calling colleagues that

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want to go and speak to the Prime

Minister about a perfectly sensible

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subject that she herself has asked

for colleagues' opinions on, how

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long should I be in this role, to

call it a plot is tabloid. The

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reality is, of course colleagues

should be able to have that

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conversation. We do not live in

North Korea. We shouldn't be not

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allowed to express views, nor do

they disappear if you don't express

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them.

You said your colleagues have

buried their heads in the sand,

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hoping things would get better. It

never got better for Gordon Brown or

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John Major, it will not get that for

Theresa May. Have you changed your

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mind

I think that colleagues should

be allowed to have views and express

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them. My views have not changed.

However, I also accept the reality

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of the situation, that we are in a

very sensitive period with Brexit

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negotiations. Six weeks ago is six

weeks ago. Time moves on and Brexit

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negotiations wait 101. What we have

to do have is a Government that is

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capable of singing from the same

hymn sheet, going to Brussels. If

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you have Number 10 and Number 11 at

each other's throats, when you have

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people been briefed against the

centre, whips that are more

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interested in... We have mutineers

on the front of the Telegraph, 50

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people that wanted not to have the

date for Brexit in the bill. I don't

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happen to agree with those people.

But to have colleagues accused of

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being mutineers because they have a

slightly diverted the view is

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ridiculous. -- diverted view. I am

pleased what we are seeing now is an

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attitude from the centre saying

let's work together, let's not

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briefed against others, let's get on

and stop the country from the even

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bigger danger than Brexit, a Jeremy

Corbyn government.

Stay there for a

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moment. I am going to bring in the

panel. You were listening to that

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interview. A change in mood towards

the Prime Minister?

Haven't seems to

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have cheered up a lot. He seemed to

me like a man giving his own leaving

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speech. There was a devil may care

attitude aspect, not really backed

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up by what you're saying. They

wanted always. There would be OBR

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figures to be nothing to do with a

Government. Unfortunately they have

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revised down, there is nothing we

can really do. At the same time,

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they wanted to show Conservative

policies are capable of driving

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growth. They want to say,

unfortunately it is not a generous

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Budget because growth figures are

revised downwards, while at the same

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time saying that the OBR is often

wrong, who knows if it will be

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correct. I don't think you get any

clear analysis from this.

Cake and

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eat it?

The significance is not

really economic, it is political. If

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you go back a week, it seemed

possible, likely even, that the

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Chancellor was going to be replaced

in a reshuffle expected between now

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and Christmas. He has saved his job.

His critics in other parties will

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say, well, his job should be about

more than his own personal survival.

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But it alters the dynamics. It means

that the government but was not

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quite Chancellor, it means a

reshuffle could be less substantial

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than might have been the case. It

seems the Tories have had a shocking

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run over the last few months. They

were rather buoyed up by it. Not

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that it was a massive success as a

Budget, it was just OK. That counts

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for quite a lot at the moment.

Listening to what Grant Shapps was

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telling us, it sounds like Theresa

May's job is safe as well?

I would

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if she is sitting in Downing Street

wearing a badge saying Philip

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Hammond saved my job? The point is,

just to pull out the camera, the

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fundamentals have not changed. The

Conservatives did not win an overall

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majority at the election, they still

have to deliver Brexit in an

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incredibly complicated process, that

looks intractable with negotiation

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difficulties, particularly with

Ireland, but also bringing the

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Cabinet together over some of these

incredibly thorny issues about where

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Brexit is going to end up. Although

Grant is putting a positive gloss on

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it now, the conference after which

he was adjusted people might

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consider her going -- after which he

suggested people might consider her

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going, things have not really

changed. He says his view has not

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really changed, and I think that

many of the people that Grant talks

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to, they have not changed their

fundamental view about the talents

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and otherwise of Theresa May. I

wonder how many people think what

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Grant thinks at the moment?

We will

come back to you and ask you that.

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How many people agree with you? Do

you still have the same view about

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the Prime Minister?

I have said

exactly what I think. You don't have

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to second-guess what I think about

all of this. Nor do I think it is

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worth day by day giving a running

commentary on that. I was heartened

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to see Number 10 and number 11

working together. We can make some

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progress. I think that is a very

good thing. The lesson to be

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learned, just because people have

diverse views, it has not been there

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should be vilified. I think we were

in danger of doing that through the

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whips or Number 10, or what have

you. I'm pleased to see we have a

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more mature attitude coming from

Downing Street.

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You once said you thought you would

make a good Prime Minister yourself,

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do you still think that?

The

question was do you have the

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required ability to make these

decisions and the rest of it. To

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answer that question would be as if

to say I don't think she should be

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doing it but that's not what I think

at all. I think this country

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requires leadership which unites

particularly those involved in the

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Government and I'm pleased that's

what we are now starting to get.

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Grant Shapps, thanks for coming to

talk to us today.

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Now, the Northern Powerhouse

was a phrase coined

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by Philip Hammond's predecessor,

George Osborne.

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But Theresa May has insisted

that she wouldn't be

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pulling the plug on it.

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So how did it fare in

this month's Budget?

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Joining us now from

Salford is the Mayor

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of Greater Manchester,

Andy Burnham.

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Thanks for coming in. I assume you

must be very pleased with the Budget

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and the amount of money delivered

for the Northern Powerhouse?

When I

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came into this job I was clear I

would never play politics for the

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sake of it. There was good news in

this Budget for Manchester, money

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which we need very much, money to

help us tackle rough sleeping.

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Again, a big priority for me. But

overall I have to say it is pretty

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thin pickings for the north of

England. The headline measure on

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stamp duty massively benefits the

South over the north and people here

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who are suffering every day on the

rail system, our clapped-out rail

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system, they didn't get any good

news in terms of electrification or

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improvement of services. All we got

was an -- promise of improvement of

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mobile services.

The Government is

giving new £12 million to help cover

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the cost relating to the Manchester

Arena attack. You must be welcoming

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of that too.

This is difficult

because I'm conscious whenever this

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issue comes up, I'm conscious of the

families. We put our bid in some

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time ago. The cost we have incurred

so far is 17 million and we have a

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further 11 million we will incur

through the inquest process. We have

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been raising that privately and I

haven't gone public on this issue

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until the Prime Minister said last

week we would have the answer, and

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we got that on Friday. It falls some

way short. I cannot see why the

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Government is not meeting our cost

in full. As I said at the beginning,

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I would never make politics out of

this issue but when we got our

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answer and it wasn't good enough I

had to make our position clear. I

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will be replying to the Prime

Minister saying let's sort this out

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properly. I just hope we can now get

a full agreement for all of our

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costs from the Government.

You've

accused the Government before of

0:18:420:18:46

being London centric and ignoring

other parts of the UK. Given that

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you have welcomed of the spending

measures, do you feel that problem

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has been addressed?

Definitely not.

The country is London centric. The

0:18:570:19:01

way transport investment is assessed

by the Treasury favours the areas

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where there is already greater

economic growth. The system is

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biased against the north and that

needs to change. In the Budget we

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got a half-hearted commitment to the

rail system of the future for the

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north of England but Crossrail 2,

the project in London, got more of a

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thumbs up. I'm speaking for people

here who feel this has been very

0:19:250:19:31

unfair over decades. We have a

transport system here that is

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creaking now and it is completely

congested, it isn't working for

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people. The Government needs to grip

that problem much more directly. The

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problem I guess with this Budget was

there's an elephant in the room and

0:19:440:19:48

that is the Brexit Divorce Bill.

There was a feeling for me they were

0:19:480:19:52

not committing money our

infrastructure cause of this thing

0:19:520:19:56

looming behind. To have no mention

of social care, no mention of police

0:19:560:20:02

funding, these were two gaping holes

at the heart of this Budget.

Surely

0:20:020:20:07

you think they should be making a

generous offer for the Brexit

0:20:070:20:13

divorce settlement? You are not

advocating that we walk away without

0:20:130:20:17

paying our dues?

No, my point was a

different one. It looks like the

0:20:170:20:24

Government is holding back on the

investment the north of England

0:20:240:20:27

needs until they have settled this

question, but the challenges facing

0:20:270:20:31

our public services and the

productivity challenge facing the

0:20:310:20:34

north is urgent and it is critical

we get that investment so we can

0:20:340:20:38

rise to the challenge of exit. I saw

this as a Budget where the

0:20:380:20:44

Chancellor was holding back. This

year of all years, to have no

0:20:440:20:50

mention of police security

counterterrorism in the Budget

0:20:500:20:53

seemed a monumental mistake. The

police service here has not got much

0:20:530:20:57

left to give. It is down to the bare

minimum and we need to see the

0:20:570:21:04

Chancellor bringing forward new

funding for the police in the

0:21:040:21:07

December settlement that it's about

to get. To have no mention of it

0:21:070:21:12

just seemed to me to be a major

mistake.

What did you make of Jeremy

0:21:120:21:17

Corbyn's response to the Budget?

I

thought it was passionate. I don't

0:21:170:21:25

think they will deal with the issue

of Universal Credit.

It was

0:21:250:21:30

passionate but was it effective?

I

think so. People want to see people

0:21:300:21:35

speaking with that level of

commitment, genuine concern. The

0:21:350:21:40

dangers are still there with

Universal Credit. Tinkering with the

0:21:400:21:44

waiting times I don't think will

take away the problem that it could

0:21:440:21:47

put more people on our streets,

huddled in doorways. The Government

0:21:470:21:52

put more people on our streets,

needs to give a clear commitment

0:21:520:21:55

that we won't see people spiralling

into debt and then at the risk of

0:21:550:21:58

being homeless as a result of

Universal Credit roll out.

The day

0:21:580:22:04

after the Budget John McDonnell got

in a muddle over his figures on debt

0:22:040:22:09

repayment. He must -- you must have

been cringing as you watched some of

0:22:090:22:14

those interviews.

You always get

these interviews after the Budget. I

0:22:140:22:20

have sat in those positions and I

think it is partly what turns people

0:22:200:22:24

off politics. I'm not here

necessarily to speak for the front

0:22:240:22:28

bench, I thought they mounted a good

critique of the Budget. What I want

0:22:280:22:33

is a more wholehearted embrace of

devolution from both political

0:22:330:22:36

parties. The challenge the country

is facing right now is that we are

0:22:360:22:42

to London centric, Brexit is

looming, we need investment in the

0:22:420:22:45

regions and I don't think we can

bring this power back from Brussels

0:22:450:22:49

and then keep it all in Westminster.

We are already in overcentralised

0:22:490:22:55

country and its crucial the power is

passed down to places like Greater

0:22:550:22:58

Manchester and I want to see both

parties embracing that is part of

0:22:580:23:01

the response to the referendum.

I'm

not asking you to speak for the

0:23:010:23:07

Labour front bench, but how did it

look to you when they were

0:23:070:23:11

responding to it, you will know

Labour are trailing in the polls on

0:23:110:23:16

economic competence - did they do

enough this week to adjust people's

0:23:160:23:19

view as to whether or not Labour

should be put in charge of the

0:23:190:23:24

economy?

That is the challenge that

the Labour Party has to convince the

0:23:240:23:27

country it can run a stronger

economy. The Shadow Chancellor has

0:23:270:23:33

put investment in infrastructure

front and centre of what he's saying

0:23:330:23:36

and I think he's absolutely right to

do that. The country is crying out

0:23:360:23:41

for that transport system,

particularly here in the north that

0:23:410:23:52

will allow us to improve

productivity and they are not

0:23:520:23:54

getting that from the current

Chancellor. Looming questions about

0:23:540:23:56

the Divorce Bill, so therefore he

won't commit to the investment now.

0:23:560:23:58

What you got from the Shadow

Chancellor was a clearer analysis of

0:23:580:24:02

what the country needs, and I think

that's what people want to hear.

0:24:020:24:07

Andy Burnham, thank you for coming

in to talk to us.

0:24:070:24:12

Last week we had a film from Leave

campaigner Gisela Stuart on why

0:24:120:24:15

business will continue to prosper

across Europe after Brexit.

0:24:150:24:17

This week, London and Dublin have

clashed over what will

0:24:170:24:19

happen to the border

between Northern Ireland

0:24:190:24:21

and the Irish Republic -

something the EU says needs to be

0:24:210:24:24

resolved if Brexit negotiations

are to move onto trade next month.

0:24:240:24:26

So today, Irish MEP and vice

president of the European

0:24:260:24:29

Parliament, Mairead McGuiness,

takes us to the border to explain

0:24:290:24:32

why she thinks Brexit

could cause business -

0:24:320:24:38

and the people on the

island of Ireland -

0:24:380:24:40

considerable difficulties.

0:24:400:24:42

This is Dundalk in County Louth,

a town close to the border

0:24:530:24:55

with Northern Ireland,

and close to where I grew up myself.

0:24:550:24:59

Today, I represent the constituency

along that 310 mile border.

0:24:590:25:02

With the Brexit negotiations

ongoing, people along the border

0:25:020:25:04

are troubled by the uncertainty.

0:25:040:25:11

From Dundalk, you can take

a straight road to Northern Ireland

0:25:110:25:13

and there's no stopping.

0:25:130:25:19

At the last count, there are over

300 different road crossings

0:25:190:25:21

between the Republic of Ireland

and Northern Ireland.

0:25:210:25:26

The big question is,

what will change post-Brexit?

0:25:260:25:28

And what do we have to do to keep

the situation as it is today?

0:25:280:25:32

For me, there is only one way,

that the United Kingdom stays

0:25:320:25:35

in the customs union.

0:25:350:25:40

But I know the UK are

determined not to do that.

0:25:400:25:43

I think the negotiations

are struggling.

0:25:430:25:44

Not too far from the border

crossing, just south,

0:25:440:25:46

I caught up with beef farmer Jim

Murray.

0:25:460:25:48

That's the actual border

itself, just ahead.

0:25:480:25:50

The actual border is about

half a mile past that.

0:25:500:25:52

Today it is frictionless

and seamless, and invisible.

0:25:520:25:56

Totally.

0:25:560:25:57

Do think it's going to stay

that way after Brexit?

0:25:570:25:59

Well, I hope it will stay like that,

because were used to this.

0:25:590:26:02

Well, I hope it will stay like that,

because we're used to this.

0:26:020:26:06

I come from a time when I remember

that you couldn't actually go down

0:26:060:26:09

that road to access,

to do some business

0:26:090:26:11

in the north, because the road

was actually blocked.

0:26:110:26:13

Have you been reassured by any

of the political statements around

0:26:130:26:16

the border in particular,

basically saying that things

0:26:160:26:17

will stay as they are?

0:26:170:26:19

I haven't, really, because seamless

and frictionless borders, you know,

0:26:190:26:21

to me it is an oxymoron.

0:26:210:26:24

Because it's still a border.

0:26:240:26:26

I also visited George McArdle.

0:26:260:26:28

He's been running a haulage

company for the last 50

0:26:280:26:30

years with experience

of crossing the border.

0:26:300:26:33

What are you worried about?

0:26:330:26:35

We're worried about

customs and delays.

0:26:350:26:40

We'd be delayed a couple of hours.

0:26:400:26:45

Would there be costs

involved for you?

0:26:450:26:50

We'd be paying drivers,

the trucks lying idle.

0:26:500:26:52

People say that, while we have

peace, it is fragile.

0:26:520:26:54

It's very fragile.

0:26:540:26:55

Any little thing could upset

the whole thing again,

0:26:550:26:58

and we wouldn't like to see Brexit

be the cause of it.

0:26:580:27:01

We are moving from the Republic

of Ireland, just across the border,

0:27:070:27:10

and I'm now in Northern Ireland.

0:27:100:27:16

It was very smooth,

seamless and frictionless.

0:27:160:27:17

I suppose that's what we want to see

continue in a post-Brexit era.

0:27:170:27:22

Just across the border

into Northern Ireland, I caught

0:27:220:27:24

up with Des Fraser,

who gave me his view

0:27:240:27:26

about why the United Kingdom

decided to leave Europe.

0:27:260:27:28

First of all it was the cost.

0:27:280:27:31

I also felt, particularly the likes

of the slurry ban, for agriculture,

0:27:310:27:34

I don't think there should be

somebody in Brussels

0:27:340:27:36

telling us when we can

or can't spread our slurry.

0:27:360:27:39

What effect do you think Brexit

would have on the border?

0:27:390:27:41

Do you think we're going to be able

to avoid a hard border?

0:27:410:27:44

Getting a solution is

the difficulty, there's no doubt.

0:27:440:27:47

There's a harmonious

relationship, you know,

0:27:470:27:50

with Europe and Switzerland,

Europe and Norway, without a hard

0:27:500:27:52

border in existence.

0:27:520:27:55

It's very clear that people on both

sides of the border want the special

0:27:550:27:58

circumstances on the island

of Ireland to be taken into account

0:27:580:28:01

in the Brexit negotiations.

0:28:010:28:04

But can it be and will it be done

in time for the December council?

0:28:040:28:09

Will we resolve the conundrum

and square the circle

0:28:090:28:11

of an invisible border on the island

of Ireland post-Brexit?

0:28:110:28:17

And Mairead McGuiness

joins us now from Dublin.

0:28:210:28:24

The former Northern Ireland

Secretary and leading Brexiteer,

0:28:240:28:29

Owen Paterson, is in Shropshire.

0:28:290:28:34

Thank you both for joining us. Owen

Paterson, Mariad laid out her case,

0:28:340:28:48

does the Government have an answer

to this?

Yes, there's already an

0:28:480:28:53

existing border. I've been going

there since ten years ago. There's a

0:28:530:29:02

currency board, now a euro sterling

border, a VAT border, a corporation

0:29:020:29:08

tax border, and in all the time I've

been going to Northern Ireland and

0:29:080:29:12

the public, not a single person ever

said this presents a problem.

...

0:29:120:29:26

Physical border.

Through the

referendum campaign, we made it

0:29:260:29:33

clear there are electronic measures

and techniques, existing techniques

0:29:330:29:37

such as authorised economic

operators and this can all be made

0:29:370:29:42

to work if there is a will on the

border. It has a small amount of

0:29:420:29:48

trade. Northern Ireland has 80% of

its trade to the rest of the UK,

0:29:480:29:56

only 5% goes over the border. It

would be very easy to license

0:29:560:30:02

tankers that take milk over the

border as authorising economic

0:30:020:30:06

operators that go over every day,

they would be recognised on a

0:30:060:30:10

regular basis, all invoices done

electronically. It is a very small

0:30:100:30:15

problem if there is a will.

Let's

bring in Mairead McGuiness. Owen

0:30:150:30:26

Paterson sounds like he's saying

you're exaggerating the problem is

0:30:260:30:28

here.

0:30:280:30:32

I've listened to it several times

and not heard anything new. He is

0:30:320:30:35

right that where there is a will

there is a way. This is a serious

0:30:350:30:38

matter for my constituency, for the

island of Ireland and Europe. We

0:30:380:30:43

have not found the way. To bring up

separate currencies, OK, it is part

0:30:430:30:48

of the situation, but we don't have

a border in the visible sense. When

0:30:480:30:53

the United Kingdom remains

determined to leave the customs

0:30:530:30:55

union and single market, the milk

that he refers to produced in

0:30:550:30:59

Northern Ireland and processed in

the Republic of Ireland comes from a

0:30:590:31:03

country that is a third country, no

longer a member of the European

0:31:030:31:07

Union. There are many issues about

that. I know the fathers in Northern

0:31:070:31:12

Ireland are deeply concerned about

the consequences for them as daily

0:31:120:31:14

farmers. -- dairy farmers. They are

troubled by his insistence that he

0:31:140:31:21

wants to scrap many of the rules

around the food industry and

0:31:210:31:24

agriculture. He wants to scrap

support for agriculture. Even

0:31:240:31:30

farmers that voted Leave, they are

now quite perplexed about what they

0:31:300:31:33

are hearing from the UK side, not

just around the issue of the border,

0:31:330:31:37

but on the wider issues of trade.

That is where this problem really

0:31:370:31:43

lies, and where we will have great

difficulty. I am more troubled this

0:31:430:31:46

morning, because I read a quote from

Arlene Fox the trade Secretary,

0:31:460:31:51

saying that the border issue and the

Irish issue will not be solved until

0:31:510:31:55

the final stage, until we reach a

decision on trade. I hope the United

0:31:550:31:59

Kingdom is not holding the situation

to ransom in these negotiations. It

0:31:590:32:04

is far too serious and too critical.

Let's go to Owen Paterson.

May I

0:32:040:32:10

finish this point?

We now have a

situation on the island of Ireland

0:32:100:32:15

and Northern Ireland where we have

built piece and we are hoping to

0:32:150:32:18

maintain that. I believe that we

will and we can. Unfortunately,

0:32:180:32:21

there is no assembly, there are

divisions between the communities

0:32:210:32:25

but they are now becoming deeper. We

have to work really hard to avoid

0:32:250:32:29

that. Part of that is to make sure,

as Theresa May said on Friday, she

0:32:290:32:35

wants the situation to remain the

same as it is today, post-Brexit.

0:32:350:32:38

The only way to achieve that is to

stay in the customs union and single

0:32:380:32:43

market. That is the solution.

A lot

for you to pick up on. Let's start

0:32:430:32:47

with the idea that it might be

possible to come up with a final

0:32:470:32:51

solution to the Irish border

question after we have seen the

0:32:510:32:54

shape of a trade deal. EU made it

clear we cannot talk about trade

0:32:540:32:58

until the Irish border has been

settled?

Saw those comments were

0:32:580:33:04

completely ridiculous and they have

been repeated when we have done

0:33:040:33:08

interviews before. -- some of those

comments. The idea that Northern

0:33:080:33:11

Ireland will be taken out of the UK

is absurd. 78 million people voted

0:33:110:33:17

to leave the European Union, they

voted to leave the customs union and

0:33:170:33:21

the single market, and the

jurisdiction of the ECJ. The idea

0:33:210:33:26

that politicians in Dublin can

somehow start to force Northern

0:33:260:33:29

Ireland to stay, against the will of

a significant number of citizens,

0:33:290:33:34

within an arrangement that will not

serve the economic and you're

0:33:340:33:37

politically, it is really very

dangerous. Let's talk about the

0:33:370:33:40

peace process, I can't think of

anything more destabilising... This

0:33:400:33:44

is a really important point. I want

to make this point. It is really

0:33:440:33:49

very irresponsible politicians to

make a statement like that, saying

0:33:490:33:52

they are going to force and

blackmail the UK into getting a

0:33:520:33:57

special status for Northern Ireland

outside the rest of the UK. That is

0:33:570:34:00

a really dangerous thing to do and

they should stop doing it. There are

0:34:000:34:05

perfectly sensible, technical

solutions to the problem of the

0:34:050:34:08

border. We currently have complete

conformity of standards. Products

0:34:080:34:11

going over the border go on a very

regular basis. It is a tiny part of

0:34:110:34:15

trade between the Republic of

Ireland and the UK. It is a really

0:34:150:34:20

tiny part of trade between Northern

Ireland and the Republic of Ireland

0:34:200:34:24

and it is solvable by modern

methods. The idea we will go back to

0:34:240:34:29

old customs, with customs officials

in

0:34:290:34:33

in bridges, sticking a ladle into a

couple trickle,

0:34:330:34:37

couple trickle, it is out of date.

Less than 2% of goods are

0:34:370:34:44

Less than 2% of goods are inspected

physically. This is completely out

0:34:440:34:46

of date.

0:34:460:35:00

tub of back-to-back.

0:35:000:35:03

tub of back-to-back.

I am disturbed

by some of those comments, to

0:35:030:35:06

describe that view as ridiculous is

not helpful. To suggest it is

0:35:060:35:10

blackmailing is appalling. The UK,

the Irish at the European Union know

0:35:100:35:14

we have had a difficult history. We

have worked

0:35:140:35:19

have worked hard politically and

financially to make sure we move

0:35:190:35:21

forward and we have.

0:35:210:35:27

forward and we have. If the United

Kingdom does trade agreements with

0:35:270:35:29

other partners and goods are flowing

into Northern Ireland, we have to

0:35:290:35:33

watch and know where they are coming

from. That will affect businesses in

0:35:330:35:37

Northern Ireland, as it will affect

businesses in the European Union. I

0:35:370:35:41

dislike this notion, and it is

happening and happened again in this

0:35:410:35:43

studio this morning, that the United

Kingdom and Owen Paterson would say

0:35:430:35:48

if borders go up, it is our fault.

Let's be frank, because we should

0:35:480:35:52

be, we are neighbours and good

friends.

0:35:520:35:57

friends. The European Union, 28

today, we respect the democratic

0:35:570:36:01

decision of the United Kingdom to

leave, but I would ask you to

0:36:010:36:04

reflect on the reality of Northern

Ireland, where people voted to stay

0:36:040:36:07

because they knew the consequences

for them. Regrettably, where the

0:36:070:36:11

referendum was taking place, there

was no talk about the consequences

0:36:110:36:13

for Northern Ireland or the island

of Ireland. We are left in a

0:36:130:36:20

situation where, retrospectively, we

are trying to find solutions. If it

0:36:200:36:22

upsets your guest at the studio, I

repeated anyway, we have to be frank

0:36:220:36:27

with one another. The way to stay

the same on the island of Ireland,

0:36:270:36:31

as it is today, post-Brexit, is for

at least the United Kingdom to take

0:36:310:36:35

the red off the table, to stay the

customs union and single market

0:36:350:36:39

gives us what we have today, and

0:36:390:36:42

gives us what we have today, and

invisible border, seamless trade,

0:36:420:36:44

and also building at helping to keep

those relationships.

0:36:440:36:49

those relationships. The good

relationship was helped in no small

0:36:490:36:52

part because Ireland, the United

Kingdom and 26 other countries can

0:36:520:36:56

sit around a table. They sit in the

European Parliament, in the council,

0:36:560:37:00

and we do business because we got to

know each other. We have formal and

0:37:000:37:05

informal talks and relationships. We

should really strive to continue

0:37:050:37:08

that. It is in the interests of the

people we spoke to on the border,

0:37:080:37:12

those that wanted the United Kingdom

to stay, and those that might have

0:37:120:37:16

had a different view.

Owen Paterson,

can you see that this can be

0:37:160:37:19

resolved before we know the

0:37:190:37:27

resolved before we know the shape of

a final trade deal? The idea that

0:37:270:37:29

the Irish question needs to be

settled before we move on to talking

0:37:290:37:31

about future trading or relations?

Is that possible?

As somebody who

0:37:310:37:35

spent time a shadow and Secretary of

State, going very regularly to

0:37:350:37:38

Dublin, getting the

0:37:380:37:41

Dublin, getting the main political

0:37:410:37:44

Dublin, getting the main political

parties in on that, I appreciate the

0:37:440:37:46

good level of relations between the

UK and the Republic of Ireland, the

0:37:460:37:49

enormous benefits to so many people.

Therefore, I am absolutely dismayed

0:37:490:37:52

at the talk this morning,

0:37:520:37:57

at the talk this morning, which is

completely unrealistic, expecting

0:37:570:37:58

Northern Ireland to be given a

separate status, outside,

0:37:580:38:01

effectively, the United Kingdom. 87%

of sales, purely on economics, are

0:38:010:38:06

within the UK. Henri

0:38:060:38:09

-- on economic grounds, it is crazy.

It is very dangerous. There was a

0:38:100:38:15

referendum at the time of the

Belfast agreement. There was

0:38:150:38:18

overwhelming support for it to stay

in the UK. All of the polls show

0:38:180:38:24

that Northern Ireland will stay very

firmly within the UK.

0:38:240:38:29

firmly within the UK.

Very quickly,

then, one last point?

0:38:290:38:33

then, one last point?

I hate to

0:38:330:38:36

then, one last point?

I hate to say,

but Owen may not be listening to

0:38:360:38:38

what I said. I said the United

Kingdom would stay in the customs

0:38:380:38:42

union and single market, I did not

say Northern Ireland should separate

0:38:420:38:44

and

0:38:440:38:47

and stay in, although that is a

potential solution, it is not the

0:38:470:38:50

one I said this morning. Please

respond to what I have said.

We

0:38:500:38:54

don't have time to respond to any of

that. It is an issue we will return

0:38:540:38:58

to. Thank you very much.

0:38:580:39:01

It's coming up to 11.40,

you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:39:010:39:06

Coming up on the programme, Ellie's

taken the Moodbox to Yorkshire

0:39:060:39:09

Good morning

and welcome to the programme.

0:39:090:39:17

Coming up, the Justice Secretary

confirms to this programme

0:39:170:39:21

that senior armed officers

in Police Scotland are under

0:39:210:39:23

investigation for alleged criminal

behaviour or gross misconduct.

0:39:230:39:27

As far as I am aware, there are two

of those that have been received

0:39:270:39:32

that are being investigated.

0:39:320:39:35

And "Bah, humbug!"

0:39:350:39:36

- we'll examine what's been

dubbed the worst budget

0:39:360:39:39

since the 19th century.

0:39:390:39:40

Good morning

and welcome to the programme.

0:39:400:39:42

In their 10 years in office

one of the most significant changes

0:39:420:39:45

implemented by the SNP Government

0:39:450:39:47

has been the creation

of a single national police force.

0:39:470:39:49

On April 1st 2013 - yes, really -

0:39:490:39:53

the existing eight

regional bodies merged in to one.

0:39:530:39:56

It was supposed to create a more

efficient organisation better able

0:39:560:39:59

to respond to the demands

of a modern country.

0:39:590:40:01

Yet from the outset,

Police Scotland has appeared

0:40:010:40:03

anything but modern.

0:40:030:40:08

The first chief comes to of police

Scotland was Sir Stephen house who

0:40:080:40:13

resigned after a catalogue of

controversies including the routine

0:40:130:40:19

arming of patrols, centralised call

centres and even breaching the rock

0:40:190:40:24

after police intercepted a private

communication with a journalist. His

0:40:240:40:30

successor Phil Gormley went on

special leave earlier this year

0:40:300:40:34

after multiple allegations of

misconduct. Now I third senior

0:40:340:40:39

officer, Bernard Higgins has been

suspended while criminal allegations

0:40:390:40:43

against him are investigated.

0:40:430:40:49

against him are investigated.

Meanwhile, the organisation charged

0:40:490:40:50

with overseeing police Scotland, the

Scottish police authority appears to

0:40:500:40:55

be equally shambolic. After serious

criticisms, Jon Flanagan retired and

0:40:550:41:03

John Foley retired early.

0:41:030:41:05

Today, there was yet more woe

for Police Scotland because

0:41:050:41:09

one paper is reporting that,

as well as Assistant Chief

0:41:090:41:11

Constable Bernard Higgins,

0:41:110:41:12

another two very senior officers

have been suspended.

0:41:120:41:14

Well, the man responsible

for Police Scotland

0:41:140:41:16

is Justice Secretary Michael

Matheson.

0:41:160:41:17

I spoke to him earlier.

0:41:170:41:20

First of all, developments over the

last few days. The Sunday mail

0:41:200:41:29

newspaper today names to very

serious police officers who have

0:41:290:41:33

been suspended along with Bernard

Williams. Is that correct?

I can't

0:41:330:41:39

die for journey details relating to

that because the matter has been

0:41:390:41:42

taken forward by the Scottish police

parity and is being

0:41:420:41:51

parity and is being investigated by

PERC directed by the Crown Office.

0:41:510:41:54

The two that I know have been

suggested are individuals who were

0:41:540:41:59

involved in an investigation.

The

two named by the Sunday Mail are

0:41:590:42:07

being investigated?

As far as I'm

aware they are two of those that are

0:42:070:42:13

being investigated by the PERC.

As I

understand it, they are people who

0:42:130:42:23

run what is effectively the firearms

unit.

They are related to those

0:42:230:42:29

involved in the firearms unit in

police Scotland and the training

0:42:290:42:32

facility.

What are these allegations

about?

I don't want to get drawn

0:42:320:42:39

into it too much because it is a

live investigation directed by the

0:42:390:42:44

Crown but as far as I'm aware, it

relates to gross misconduct and

0:42:440:42:50

misconduct, the precise details of

which are for the Crown to

0:42:500:42:56

investigate.

What sort of

misconduct?

It's a matter for the

0:42:560:43:04

Scottish police authority.

It's

clearly a matter of immense public

0:43:040:43:09

interest to know what several of the

most senior police officers in

0:43:090:43:14

Scotland are being accused of.

Like

any investigation, it could be

0:43:140:43:20

criminal in nature and it's

important to recognise due process

0:43:200:43:24

and for the individuals with

complaints lodged against them, we

0:43:240:43:28

allow that process to take its

course. There is a statutory

0:43:280:43:33

process. Scottish police have

considered the matter on the basis

0:43:330:43:35

of what has been decided to them by

Police Scotland. The Crown Office

0:43:350:43:43

are now directing this investigation

and it's important not to speculate

0:43:430:43:46

about the nature of the actual

complaint and the details of it

0:43:460:43:50

given that it is a matter that has

been directed by the Crown Office.

I

0:43:500:43:55

am not asking you to pre-empt any

due process but it is obviously a

0:43:550:44:00

matter of public interest to know in

general terms what the nature of

0:44:000:44:05

allegations against three of the top

police officers in this country.

0:44:050:44:08

They are to do with misconduct and

gross misconduct, that's why it's

0:44:080:44:14

being investigated at the moment.

That could be anything from theft of

0:44:140:44:20

a few pencils to anything more than

that.

The reason I can't give

0:44:200:44:25

details is because it is a matter

taken forward by the Scottish police

0:44:250:44:29

authority and it is investigated by

the Crown and the details provided

0:44:290:44:34

by the Crown and the PERC and the

Police authority have a level of

0:44:340:44:40

detail that Scottish ministers have

in these matters.

The trade union

0:44:400:44:46

for police officers are unhappy

about this. A spokesman is quoted as

0:44:460:44:52

calling the suspension is warranted.

They have their view given that they

0:44:520:44:56

represent some of their members.

Why

are they wrong in your view?

They

0:44:560:45:02

would have to explain that

themselves.

They say, our members

0:45:020:45:09

rightly ask what allows some members

to be granted leave, a reference to

0:45:090:45:17

this police constable while under

investigation, but for that same

0:45:170:45:21

opportunity not to be investigated

to them.

The police authority have

0:45:210:45:26

considered the details put to them

by the review commission and based

0:45:260:45:29

on that the Scottish police

authority who determine disciplinary

0:45:290:45:34

matters make a decision on

appropriate action and any decision

0:45:340:45:38

to suspend someone is taken by the

deputy chief const are in this

0:45:380:45:42

instance.

But the point they are

making is that Phil Gormley is on

0:45:420:45:49

special leave and we know the nature

of the allegations against him. You

0:45:490:45:53

won't tell is the nature of the

collisions against these other

0:45:530:45:56

officers and they have not been

given the opportunity to take

0:45:560:45:59

special leave and have just been

suspended. Why?

Sarah differences in

0:45:590:46:06

the allegations between firearms

officers and Bernard Higgins. As for

0:46:060:46:13

what action is to be taken, for

those below the rank of police

0:46:130:46:19

constable it is for the police

authority to determine. It is a

0:46:190:46:25

decision that was made by rose

Fitzpatrick the deputy chief

0:46:250:46:33

Dunstable -- constable.

A lot of

people will be sitting thinking,

0:46:330:46:41

this guy is the Justice Secretary

and is in charge and he is sitting

0:46:410:46:45

there saying nothing to do with me.

That's not the case at all. There is

0:46:450:46:51

due process to do with these issues.

We put in place a process that would

0:46:510:46:59

investigate and deal with these

issues. There is a legal process

0:46:590:47:03

because of statutory provision for

these issues and it has been taken

0:47:030:47:06

forward. I'm saying that I respect

the due process and will allow the

0:47:060:47:12

PERC to take forward the

investigation. I am going to make

0:47:120:47:20

sure that the process is allowed to

take its course in order to make

0:47:200:47:24

sure that those who have complaint

against them but they are allowed to

0:47:240:47:30

process without unnecessary

speculation in relation to the

0:47:300:47:33

complaints and with respect to the

fact that they need to allow the

0:47:330:47:36

process to be interfered with by

ministers while it's being

0:47:360:47:39

completed.

What would you say to

members of the public to say, hang

0:47:390:47:44

on a minute, it looks like the

entire top leadership of police

0:47:440:47:48

Scotland is now under investigation

for various different alleged

0:47:480:47:52

offences and you are the Justice

Secretary and are not allowed to say

0:47:520:48:00

what these matters are in relation

to. It's not acceptable.

A key part

0:48:000:48:10

of this process is to respect the

way in which that is conducted.

0:48:100:48:15

Without undue interference in the

process. You are a inviting me to

0:48:150:48:23

interfere in the process.

I'm not. I

ask you to tell others about the

0:48:230:48:29

nature of the allegations.

I am not

prepared to do that where there is a

0:48:290:48:34

process in place to deal with this

issue.

There is a basic issue on a

0:48:340:48:39

broader level of trust here.

Policing, perhaps more than most

0:48:390:48:44

public services relies on trust. You

are asking members of the public to

0:48:440:48:50

come forward and inform on drug

gangs or whatever and those members

0:48:500:48:54

of the public could feel that they

may be in jeopardy. How are people

0:48:540:48:59

supposed to trust police Scotland

when so much of the senior

0:48:590:49:04

leadership is now under

investigation by the Crown Office

0:49:040:49:08

and police investigators?

I accept

this is a challenging time

0:49:080:49:13

particularly for the executive team

within police Scotland. There is a

0:49:130:49:18

very serious group of individuals

who are dealing with day-to-day

0:49:180:49:21

policing matters and the reality is

that even though the charges which

0:49:210:49:26

the executive team are facing at the

moment, day-to-day policing will

0:49:260:49:30

continue as it is and will continue

to do that going forward. What is

0:49:300:49:35

important is to make sure that the

command structure in Scotland has

0:49:350:49:38

the necessary support it requires

and that's why debit she chief comes

0:49:380:49:43

to a living stone is reviewing the

command structure to see whether he

0:49:430:49:47

can add individuals to that to

support the Mac going forward

0:49:470:49:50

particularly during a period when

they don't have the chief customer

0:49:500:49:54

here and the Deputy Chief Constable

is suspended. He will sink that out

0:49:540:49:57

in the coming days.

You say things

will go on as normal. One of the

0:49:570:50:04

people involved, if the report is to

be believed, is in charge of

0:50:040:50:09

hostages generations should there be

a terrorist attack. How can someone

0:50:090:50:13

as senior as that be removed and you

say nothing to see here, go on as

0:50:130:50:19

normal.

Normal day-to-day policing

will continue as normal. Ian

0:50:190:50:25

Livingstone is presently reviewing

his command structure to see whether

0:50:250:50:29

he needs to put in any additional

individuals to make sure he has the

0:50:290:50:35

support he requires. These are

operational matters for the deputy

0:50:350:50:39

chief customer to consider and he's

now looking about to see whether he

0:50:390:50:42

needs to bring in any additional

individuals to provide that support

0:50:420:50:46

and that's appropriate. What will be

important now is in carrying out

0:50:460:50:50

that review of the process that any

changes he has to implement our that

0:50:500:50:56

the Scottish police authority give

him the assistance to make sure that

0:50:560:50:58

happens as quickly as possible.

One

inference one could draw from what

0:50:580:51:03

is going on given that so many

people are involved at the head of

0:51:030:51:07

police Scotland, it is not just a

coincidence and there must be some

0:51:070:51:12

basic cultural problem within that

organisation. You think there is? Or

0:51:120:51:18

is it just coincidence?

What we do

have now in the process which we

0:51:180:51:22

deal with these issues is greater

transparency and accountability in

0:51:220:51:25

how these matters are dealt with.

Previous legacy says that they

0:51:250:51:32

didn't have the PERC or the Scottish

police authority to lead these type

0:51:320:51:37

of issues and take them forward. We

have much greater transparency and

0:51:370:51:42

accountability but I understand that

people will be concerned when you

0:51:420:51:46

have senior officials under

investigation for various issues.

Do

0:51:460:51:52

you think there is a cultural

problem?

I'm not sure that is the

0:51:520:51:57

case but what I think is important

is...

Wooden July to find out? --

0:51:570:52:05

wouldn't you like to find out?

The

investigations are on a number of

0:52:050:52:13

different matters. What is important

is that we have the command

0:52:130:52:18

structure that is required and once

the investigations have been carried

0:52:180:52:22

out into the officers we will be in

a better place to understand what

0:52:220:52:31

the circumstances that related to

those complaints are.

So you will

0:52:310:52:36

consider leading some sort of

investigation into the culture of

0:52:360:52:40

police Scotland once the due process

is over?

Once we have completed this

0:52:400:52:46

process, I will ensure that those

actions are taken if it is

0:52:460:52:50

appropriate.

We are running out of

time. The Conservatives have said

0:52:500:52:55

that you should at least put on hold

the merger of British Transport

0:52:550:53:00

Police with police Scotland given

the mess at the top of police

0:53:000:53:04

Scotland. Will you do that? It seems

an obvious thing to do.

The work

0:53:040:53:09

that has been taken forward around

the integration of transport police

0:53:090:53:14

into police Scotland is led by the

integration board that brings a

0:53:140:53:18

range of partners together.

You are

not saying that you couldn't

0:53:180:53:21

intervene?

If they raise concerns

with me on that matter I would

0:53:210:53:26

consider it.

You can intervene. It

is a political decision to do this.

0:53:260:53:33

I will consider any issues that they

raise. The reason that the

0:53:330:53:38

Conservatives are asking is not to

do it is because they opposed the

0:53:380:53:41

idea in the first place. What I'm

saying to you is if there are issues

0:53:410:53:45

that I think are relating to British

Transport Police that need to be

0:53:450:53:50

addressed I will consider that.

Let

me quote to you the chairman of the

0:53:500:53:57

British Transport Police Federation,

Nigel good band. He says, we are

0:53:570:54:00

shocked by the lack of transparency

and accountability and financial

0:54:000:54:04

prudence shown throughout this

process.

In relation to the way

0:54:040:54:09

we've taken forward integration?

There was legislation through

0:54:090:54:13

Parliament and the majority of MSPs

supported integration into BT P.

So

0:54:130:54:23

he is wrong?

They have guaranteed

pay levels and jobs and we will have

0:54:230:54:31

a dedicated railway policing unit

within police Scotland so I

0:54:310:54:36

understand their concerns but we

engage with them on a regular basis

0:54:360:54:40

and there is a joint programme on

board bringing together a whole

0:54:400:54:43

range of expertise. I

0:54:430:54:50

range of expertise. I will consider

that but at this point they haven't

0:54:500:54:52

raised those concerns.

Thank you

very much indeed.

0:54:520:54:56

This week we had one of the most

pessimistic budgets in generations.

0:54:560:54:59

For the past decade there's been

an unprecedented squeeze

0:54:590:55:01

on our living standards.

0:55:010:55:02

But what's remarkable is that

we've got another five years to go

0:55:020:55:05

at least before earnings return

to anything like the levels we saw

0:55:050:55:08

before the financial crisis.

0:55:080:55:09

In a moment we'll discuss

what it all means -

0:55:090:55:11

and whether the Scottish Government

will now put up taxes

0:55:110:55:14

in its own forthcoming budget?

0:55:140:55:15

First, here's Graham Stewart.

0:55:150:55:22

Today they revised down the

projection for GP. Unprecedented,

0:55:220:55:32

worst since 19th century.

Here is

the loan of £70. You expect me to be

0:55:320:55:39

grateful for this feeble triple

coins?

Have you no heart mist a

0:55:390:55:45

script at the bleak midwinter all

right.

Wages stagnant, living

0:55:450:55:51

standards squeezed and no

improvement for decades and at the

0:55:510:55:55

very least, happy Christmas bastion

mark --? Not much cheer on the high

0:55:550:56:03

Street this Black Friday we can

Scottish retailers reported slow

0:56:030:56:09

starts to the Steyl sales on pinch

living standards. If you are

0:56:090:56:17

underpaid, nurses are underpaid...

Minimum wages £70 50 will stop -- £7

0:56:170:56:26

50.

Pensioners haven't gone up to

compensate with wages and prices.

0:56:260:56:34

People are feeling the pinch. That

is why I am here on Black Friday

0:56:340:56:37

looking for bargains.

Packed your

real income to grow 2%, you're a

0:56:370:56:47

city grow would be improving all the

time but we have had a decade

0:56:470:56:51

basically where that hasn't happened

and it looks like we will have

0:56:510:56:56

possibly as much as a another decade

where living standards are fine, so

0:56:560:57:03

the key is the lack of growth and

productivity, how much we produce

0:57:030:57:08

power has increased. British workers

are at as European counterparts,

0:57:080:57:14

it's a key challenge.

0:57:140:57:25

For I had to take the pharmacy.

Scrooge has no time for slackers.

0:57:320:57:38

Rigid workers are lazy. Predict that

it would be low due to poor advice

0:57:380:57:49

on higher education sector but it is

really about what skilled ultraquiet

0:57:490:57:53

for the workforce going forward

which is why I have stressed

0:57:530:57:59

different skills or levers and

people coming at the University but

0:57:590:58:02

also those in more Whiteleys areas

they are adequately trained the

0:58:020:58:10

economy and those highly paid jobs

going forward will require higher

0:58:100:58:14

skills across the board. Just as

Ebenezer Scrooge flicked to wake

0:58:140:58:19

them at the top and has barred more

money and spend. That means an extra

0:58:190:58:26

£2 billion for Scotland but slightly

more than half has strings attached.

0:58:260:58:30

Projects for which money has to be

paid back. That is helped by bigger

0:58:300:58:36

than a quarter for day-to-day

0:58:360:58:44

than a quarter for day-to-day

spending but all people the

0:58:440:58:50

chocolate bite the impression that

it was somehow a educational, and

0:58:500:59:01

breadth of the country. Ruth

Davidson knows that it's far from

0:59:010:59:03

the truth.

0:59:030:59:10

the truth.

The, SNP say that is the

wrong kind of money. Money to tackle

0:59:100:59:16

pot

0:59:160:59:22

pot with the... Only business that

could be handed to billions at the

0:59:220:59:28

like someone had stolen has got her

skank.

0:59:280:59:35

The invitations for the economy no

one can know. Philip Hammond might

0:59:420:59:49

not be the only Mize this Christmas.

not be the only Mize this Christmas.

0:59:490:59:53

-- miser.

You old skinflint!

Twopence is tuppence.

0:59:531:00:03

I'm joined now by Labour's

Paul Sweeney,

1:00:041:00:06

in Edinburgh is the Conservative's

John Lamont and in Dundee

1:00:061:00:08

is the SNP's Stewart Hosie.

1:00:081:00:18

If we are to see no rise in real

wages for at least a second decade

1:00:181:00:26

and certainly to be somewhere like

2022 before we even see real living

1:00:261:00:31

standards getting back to the levels

before the financial crisis, that's

1:00:311:00:35

a disastrous record for government,

isn't it?

I would dispute that

1:00:351:00:41

strongly. Current Conservative

governments and the coalition

1:00:411:00:43

previously worked very hard to sort

out our country is net you dreadful

1:00:431:00:48

legacy that we inherited. The

government has done a lots to reform

1:00:481:00:56

the economy and put it on a stronger

footing. It would have otherwise

1:00:561:00:59

been on a stronger footing and will

be if Mr Corbyn gets elected.

Just

1:00:591:01:05

to be clear there is no combination

of policies that could have stopped

1:01:051:01:10

real living standards stagnating

until the mid 20 20s, is that really

1:01:101:01:15

what you are saying?

The way to

ensure economic prosperity of our

1:01:151:01:21

country and strong growth is to put

our economy on a strong footing and

1:01:211:01:26

the reforms which the Conservative

government have put in place to

1:01:261:01:33

reduce the deficit and control

borrowing lovers will enjoy being

1:01:331:01:37

economy is in a surer bidding than

otherwise would be. Creating an

1:01:371:01:43

economy that creates well-paid jobs

is the best way to ensure people's

1:01:431:01:47

living standards are improved.

Paul

Sweeney, is the whale to deal with

1:01:471:01:51

this way to raise taxes? In

Scotland, I'm asking you this

1:01:511:01:56

question because what Richard's

position is? Ray Burke were in

1:01:561:02:03

favour of -- labour were in favour

of raving taxes.

Fundamentally the

1:02:031:02:09

issue in the UK as a whole is the

evisceration of the public services.

1:02:091:02:12

We are seeing the Tory sleight of

hand in the last few years has been

1:02:121:02:17

turning a bank crisis into a

spending crisis. The Tories

1:02:171:02:22

inherited a growing economy on the

Labour government. That point about

1:02:221:02:27

tax, Scotland's register revenue

budget will decline a little bit

1:02:271:02:34

because of capital spending is the

challenge for Scottish treatment,

1:02:341:02:39

but that gap using the new fiscal

powers they have. That is what we

1:02:391:02:43

are advocating.

We want to see this

improving.

Our world is putting

1:02:431:02:47

taxes up address the underlying

issue, terrible productivity in the

1:02:471:02:50

economy?

What we need is investment

economy?

What we need is investment

1:02:501:02:55

-- reinvestment in the economy. We

need to increase public spending an

1:02:551:03:00

services, and we can invest more in

the economy as a result. We need

1:03:001:03:05

higher growth and that is what we

will see. Cutting at every turn we

1:03:051:03:09

will is not see a better picture.

You have officially not decided but

1:03:091:03:14

you want to put taxes up as well?

The government Minister for Finance

1:03:141:03:19

will be looking at the entire

budget. We will be putting forward a

1:03:191:03:24

budget in a few weeks' time. In the

context of the UK Government budget

1:03:241:03:28

we have just had, let us remember

which has seen growth cut in every

1:03:281:03:35

year of the forecast, we have seen

GDP per head halved almost for the

1:03:351:03:40

entire forecast period. Even when

the Chancellor and added some

1:03:401:03:44

sensible spending in investment and

innovation that big £7 billion pack.

1:03:441:03:51

Until 2022 or 2023, six time. He

should have spent that money now.

1:03:511:03:58

Because we need it, and to mitigate

potential damage from Brexit.

1:03:581:04:02

Because the bad thing is we have

seen here, they are before the

1:04:021:04:06

impact of the Brexit is felt.

I

thought SNP policy was to basically

1:04:061:04:13

balance the budget for current

spending but spend money on capital

1:04:131:04:20

projects which could benefit future

generations as well as current

1:04:201:04:23

generations. In order to do that,

you will obviously have do have some

1:04:231:04:28

cuts to public funding to get things

back in balance. So is it not in

1:04:281:04:34

fact the Conservative government

doing exactly what you say you are

1:04:341:04:38

for?

If you recall from the election

we may be point that the UK

1:04:381:04:43

Government should be spending the

money now. Partly to mitigate Brexit

1:04:431:04:47

and partly to grow the economy, and

at the end of this parliament when

1:04:471:04:51

we saw the deficit continued to

fall, debt begins to fall as a share

1:04:511:04:54

of GDP and at that point, in balance

of a surplus, the money should be

1:04:541:05:01

for capital projects but we are at

that point yet is precisely because

1:05:011:05:05

we have seen the growth forecasts

mocked down. We have been denuded of

1:05:051:05:10

cash.

Paul Sweeney, that is a Labour

policy, as well, is it not? To

1:05:101:05:16

balance the current budget and then

only on capital spending. I put it

1:05:161:05:21

to you that the Conservatives are

doing what you say you want to do

1:05:211:05:24

but what impact this you complain

bitterly about?

Actually the measure

1:05:241:05:27

of success for the Conservatives has

been cutting the deficit when I have

1:05:271:05:33

failed at every turn. They are

planning to balance it in 2030. And

1:05:331:05:42

his 16 years, a generational

betrayal.

What you are saying is

1:05:421:05:49

putting balancing the budget off

even further. What we are saying is

1:05:491:05:52

not doing it through a primary

measure of cutting public spending

1:05:521:05:55

but balancing the budget by growing

tax revenues and we do that by

1:05:551:05:58

investing in the country. The great

use a veggie cycle. The Tories have

1:05:581:06:03

cut and slang will be public

services as a result of their fiscal

1:06:031:06:07

cuts will stop we need to Ashley

invest in the economy to get that

1:06:071:06:10

benefit. Jonathan, throughout the

chancellorship of George Osborne we

1:06:101:06:15

were told to balance the budget and

that was the main thing to care

1:06:151:06:20

about. And that we had to worry

about. Philip Hammond says it won't

1:06:201:06:26

now be balance until 2031. It was

supposed to have been balanced by

1:06:261:06:30

2015. It wasn't even mentioned in

the budget, does that not make you

1:06:301:06:34

feel bad? That the thing that we

were told that was the most

1:06:341:06:37

important thing we had to worry

about, it now seems even the

1:06:371:06:40

Conservatives don't care!

It is

important to recognise that our

1:06:401:06:45

political opponents have bought two

den nail to stop the very top

1:06:451:06:49

decisions that the Conservative

government have had to make to the

1:06:491:06:51

reduce both the deficit and...

Apparently that is still not

1:06:511:06:56

important then.

It is the economic

situation of the country remaining

1:06:561:07:03

challenging, still dealing with the

legacy of the last Labour

1:07:031:07:05

government. Wow. It is effective to

use a balanced budget.

We are

1:07:051:07:14

running out of time. Very quickly

committee would, John Stuart, you

1:07:141:07:17

are looking more sceptical by the

moment.

1:07:171:07:25

I'm extremely sceptical indeed. The

deficit hasn't fallen. The budget

1:07:251:07:32

won't be balanced for goodness knows

how many years. The government fail

1:07:321:07:36

on every car that they set for

themselves and it is the poorest in

1:07:361:07:40

this country and our productivity

that pays the price.

Thank you very

1:07:401:07:46

much indeed.

1:07:461:07:48

Now it's time for a look back

- as well as forwards -

1:07:481:07:52

to the week ahead.

1:07:521:07:53

With me this week are

the journalists Rebecca McQuillan

1:07:531:07:55

and Paul Hutcheon who work

for The Herald and Sunday Herald.

1:07:551:08:01

First, Paul, interesting, isn't it

that the Justice Secretary con

1:08:011:08:04

firmed that these two policeman Curt

Coronel and Bob Glass as the people

1:08:041:08:15

involved. It's a mess, isn't it?

It

is a dysfunctional failing

1:08:151:08:22

organisation with the Chief

Constable on leave amid allegations

1:08:221:08:27

and seven other cops facing

misconduct investigations over a spy

1:08:271:08:33

probe and now Assistant Chief

Constable Bernie Higgins and

1:08:331:08:36

colleagues in the firearms unit

suspended. It's not good.

Do you

1:08:361:08:42

think there is any merit. One of the

things that Michael Matheson

1:08:421:08:46

suggested, perhaps we have these

people under investigation because

1:08:461:08:50

in the olden days they wouldn't have

been investigated. More

1:08:501:08:54

investigations may be a product of

more investigators?

In the legacy

1:08:541:09:02

forces, there was a culture of

cover-up and secrecy. The one

1:09:021:09:05

benefit of the single force is there

is much more scrutiny. I know from

1:09:051:09:13

experience that police Scotland is a

very leaky

1:09:131:09:24

very leaky organisation. In pre-2013

days, I don't think people felt they

1:09:241:09:30

could come forward. There is a glare

of publicity which is a good thing.

1:09:301:09:36

What have you made of this, Rebecca?

I can't remember a time when a

1:09:361:09:43

Scottish institution had so many

problems on so many different

1:09:431:09:46

fronts. Paul mentioned all those

investigations, which are separate,

1:09:461:09:52

they are not linked together.

We

didn't get around to the fact that

1:09:521:09:58

there is a new leader of the

Scottish police Association coming

1:09:581:10:02

in.

This is the body that oversees

police Scotland and there is

1:10:021:10:14

financial mismanagement, controversy

over stop and search and armed

1:10:141:10:17

police and one thing and another. An

awful lot of things going wrong at

1:10:171:10:21

once. As you were driving up with

some of your questions, it does make

1:10:211:10:27

you ask if there is some underlying

cause for this malaise. Actually, it

1:10:271:10:32

doesn't look like there is just one

course. A number of things are going

1:10:321:10:36

wrong at once.

I know there have

been some suggestions of what these

1:10:361:10:43

allegations are about but I don't

want to repeat them because Michael

1:10:431:10:47

Matheson said that we shouldn't. But

will that wash? We do know roughly

1:10:471:10:54

what Phil Gormley is being

investigated for but the others, is

1:10:541:11:01

it going to wash to say that you are

not allowed to know? There is an

1:11:011:11:05

issue of confidence.

It's inevitable

that the detail of these complaints

1:11:051:11:11

will seep out. I have a degree of

sympathy with Michael Matheson in

1:11:111:11:15

that it shows the real problem of

policing where he is expected to

1:11:151:11:23

answer questions on disciplinary and

conduct issues with the police. The

1:11:231:11:27

organisation set up to oversee this

organisation would do that if it was

1:11:271:11:36

doing its job properly. He wouldn't

have to answer those questions.

So,

1:11:361:11:41

in effect, it's not a functioning

organisation?

It is completely

1:11:411:11:47

dysfunctional. I don't think anyone

in Scottish policing has any

1:11:471:11:53

confidence in the S P a at all.

There was a suggestion that after

1:11:531:11:58

due process, he may start some

investigation into what has gone

1:11:581:12:04

wrong. Something is going to have to

be done to restore public

1:12:041:12:06

confidence.

1:12:061:12:13

confidence.

Opposing politicians

like nothing more than to call for a

1:12:131:12:17

root and branch review and that has

not happened. You wonder if it is

1:12:171:12:21

the right moment to do this because

a number of things have to happen

1:12:211:12:25

that are in process at the moment.

One of the first is, the force needs

1:12:251:12:31

a Chief Constable. He is on

gardening leave at the moment and

1:12:311:12:36

there is an investigation that we

hope will be concluded quickly.

1:12:361:12:39

There has been a lot of controversy

about call handling, recommendations

1:12:391:12:44

have been made, there are things

going on at the moment, one would

1:12:441:12:48

hope, would within six months or a

year all of this would have settled

1:12:481:12:52

down. If it hasn't, then, yes, you

are going to need a fairly serious

1:12:521:12:58

review of how this organisation is

working just four or five years

1:12:581:13:01

after it is set up.

And cultural

problems. They are very difficult to

1:13:011:13:08

change.

Many of the problems that

Police Scotland suffered were there

1:13:081:13:16

under the legacy forces, like stop

and search, it is only through

1:13:161:13:20

scrutiny that we have actually seen

Strathclyde policies rolled out

1:13:201:13:25

nationally and people don't like

them. Many of the things that have

1:13:251:13:29

been dominating the news coverage

have been there for years.

They are

1:13:291:13:35

going to merge even more, including

the British Transport Police. Might

1:13:351:13:39

it be sensible to put that on hold?

I do. Bernard Higgins, currently

1:13:391:13:49

suspended, was, as I understand it,

going to oversee this merger. He

1:13:491:13:54

said that there would be massive

transitional issues merging the two

1:13:541:13:58

forces. It's not the right time to

be doing this.

What do you think,

1:13:581:14:04

Paul?

Many stories have said that

there is no business case for this

1:14:041:14:10

and it was done for political

reasons rather than policing

1:14:101:14:14

reasons. I would ask whether Police

Scotland has done enough to deserve

1:14:141:14:20

becoming bigger?

1:14:201:14:21

That's all from the us this week.

1:14:211:14:24

I'll be back at the

same time next week.

1:14:241:14:26

Until then, goodbye.

1:14:261:14:28

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