03/12/2017 Sunday Politics Scotland


03/12/2017

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LineFromTo

Good morning, everyone.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

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Welcome to the Sunday Politics -

your essential guide to the biggest

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political stories of the week.

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Coming up on today's show...

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Ahead of a crucial EU summit,

is Theresa May on the brink

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of a breakthrough on Brexit?

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Or, after a slightly torrid week,

is she in danger of being

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overtaken by events?

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The ex-Labour minister

Alan Milburn quits as chairman

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of the Social Mobility Commission,

saying he has "little hope"

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the current government can make

the "necessary" progress.

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What does this mean

for a Prime Minister who vowed

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to fight against the "burning

injustice" of inequality?

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And, we speak to the academic who's

carrying out economic "wargaming"

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scenarios for the Labour party,

in the event it wins power.

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People are going to trust us

with their jobs and their pensions

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and their livelihoods.

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We've got to show we

know what we're doing.

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This seems like common sense to me.

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And on Sunday Politics Scotland:

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Amid the crisis engulfing

Police Scotland, the body charged

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with overseeing them has a new boss.

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I'll be speaking to Susan Deacon,

who takes over at the Scottish

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Police Authority tomorrow morning.

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Yes, all that coming

up in the programme.

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And to help guide me

through all the week's

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twists and turns, I'm

joined by Tom Newton Dunn,

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Isabel Oakeshott,

and Steve Richards.

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Now, the breaking news this morning

is the resignation of Alan Milburn -

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the ex-Labour minister who,

for the last five years, has chaired

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the Social Mobility Commission.

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He says the Government is too

preoccupied with Brexit

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to focus on social justice.

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We'll be assessing the significance

of that in a moment.

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But first, if that relationship has

turned sour for the Prime Minister,

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it wasn't the only one this week.

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Like all relationships, our liaison

with our European neighbours

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has had its ups and downs.

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Theresa May wants a deep and special

partnership after Brexit.

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Thus far, money has been

the main obstacle to

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an amicable divorce.

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This week, a possible breakthrough.

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He once said "the EU

could go whistle if they

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asked for too much," now he's

practically dancing with joy.

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It's a fantastic opportunity

now to get going.

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Others are always harder to please.

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It is not worth nearly

50 billion sterling.

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No deal is better than a bad deal

and this is a very bad deal indeed.

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Brussels may be on board

with the divorce bill but

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there's trouble over

the Irish border.

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If the UK offer is unacceptable

for Ireland, it will

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also be unacceptable for the EU.

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Reports suggest Stormont could be

given more power to agree bespoke

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trading arrangements

with the Republic but that, in turn,

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enraged Theresa May's

partners in Parliament.

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The DUP could walk out

of their marriage of convenience

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with the Tories if the Government

allows Northern Ireland to diverge

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from the rest of the UK.

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If there is any hint that in order

to placate Dublin and the EU,

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they are prepared to have

Northern Ireland treated differently

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than the rest of the United Kingdom,

then they can't rely on our vote.

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But it was the "special

relationship" that came

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under most strain.

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As Donald Trump re-tweeted

Islamophobia videos,

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posted by the far right

group, Britain First.

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Denounced by Downing Street,

the President took to Twitter again,

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telling Theresa May directly,

"Don't focus on me,

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we are doing just fine."

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The Prime Minister on a surprise

trip to the Middle East was plunged

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into a very public row.

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I'm very clear that

re-tweeting from Britain

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First was the wrong thing to do.

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The May-Trump mini break

in the UK might be off.

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I certainly don't think he should be

should be coming next year.

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Next year is supposed to be a happy

event for the Royal family.

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We certainly don't want Trump

turning up in the middle

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of all of that.

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Meanwhile, Labour leader and GQ

magazine cover model declared

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himself to be an enemy

of greedy bankers.

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So, when they say, we're

a threat, they're right.

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We are a threat to

a damaging and failed

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system that's rigged for the few.

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The Prime Minister's

closest political

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friend stood in for her

at the dispatch box on Wednesday

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while she was abroad but fresh

questions emerged later

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in the week about

whether he'd used a Parliamentary

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computer to view pornography

some nine years ago.

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Theresa May will meet be EU

Commission President

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Jean-Claude Juncker tomorrow.

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They will discuss the revised

offer on the divorce

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bill and whether talks

can now move on to trade

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post-Brexit.

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It has not been an easy

relationship with leaks from

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previous meetings finding their way

into the German press.

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Hopefully, they can put

all of that behind them.

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So, we will talk through one of the

top stories for the week with our

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panel in the studio. We are going to

be looking ahead to what is

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happening in Brussels. The Prime

Minister is going over for a working

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lunch with Jean-Claude Juncker

tomorrow. We are always saying we

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have reached a critical stage in the

negotiations.

Is it a critical

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point? It is. It is endgame of

chapter one. There are two chapters,

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divorce and then trade. This is the

end of the first half, at the 43rd

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minute. It is probably 0-0. We need

to get over the line and into

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half-time and into the second half.

Wyatt is so critical is the Prime

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Minister, in the next few days, she

cannot wait till the 14th or 15th of

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December, have to choose to govern

is to choose. One side is saying

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this is what we will act set to move

on to the second phase and the

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Eurosceptics will say, we will not

access to any of that. She has to

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get off the fence. One is what they

will do about easy JN the other

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about the Irish border. To divert or

not diverged?

This is only the end

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of the first half of the process. If

the EU agrees we can move onto the

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second half. That is not guaranteed,

is it?

Tom's analogy, I will not go

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too far with it because I'm not a

football expert. Brexiteers feel it

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is more like 1-0 to the EU. There is

a circulation today, leave means

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leave, which is signed by eminent

business people and academics. Only

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a few MPs, about five of them on

now. We were discussing this earlier

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and Tom made the point it is quite a

hostile thing for a Tory MP to sign

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a letter like this. Many more agree

with the contents of the letter,

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which sets out the set of conditions

the PM must not agree to, in their

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view, must not capitulate to as the

negotiation goes forward. It is

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about when free movement of people

ends and we retain the power to go

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to WTO if all else fails.

We be

discussing this further with our

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guests and find out what the EU had

think about it. The other big news

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of the morning is that Alan Milburn

resigned from the social mobility

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commission. He told and remarked

earlier why. -- Andrew Marr.

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In various social mobility roles,

I've served a Labour Prime Minister,

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a coalition Prime Minister,

and now, a Conservative one.

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I've done so because I care deeply

about the issue and I believe

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that it matters profoundly

to the country.

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I've reached the conclusion, sadly,

that with the current government,

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there is little if any hope

of progress being made

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towards the fairer Britain

that the Prime Minister

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has talked about.

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The Government, probably

for understandable reasons,

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is focused on Brexit,

and seems to lack the bandwidth

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to be able to translate the rhetoric

of healing social division

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and promoting social justice

into a reality.

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That is a pretty damning statement,

the Government does not have the

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bandwidth to do with anything other

than Brexit.

It is true. Brexit is

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sucking up all political energy much

practical energy in Whitehall.

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Beyond that, the significance of

this is not huge. I think these

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commissions float uneasily in

government. If you make policy on

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social justice, you can do that

within a government department if

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you are serious about it. I think it

was set up partly with good

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intentions in the coalition period,

partly to break off the Blairites

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from Labour and get them involved

with these so called modernising

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Conservative project, and the fact

that it is ending, I don't think in

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itself is significant. But he is

absolutely... By the way they were

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never entirely clear on policy

terms. The fact he said I am not a

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status quo nor am I with Theresa

May, what are going to be the

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mediating agencies? There are some

huge issues to address. Whether this

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was the appropriate way to do it in

the first place, I have doubts about

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it.

Thank you for that.

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Well, to pick up on all of that,

I'm joined by the former

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Conservative leader, Michael Howard.

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Thank you for coming in. Let's start

with the claim by Alan Milburn that

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the Government does not have the

time or capacity to do anything

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other than Brexit. That must be a

concern to you as well.

I think he

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is wrong. I share his concern about

social mobility. When I was the

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leader of the Conservative Party

used to make speeches about the

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British dream and the importance of

social mobility. There is always

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more to be done but we have actually

made a lot of progress. Can I give

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you some examples? We would all

agree that education is key to

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social mobility. We have 1.9 million

children now, 1.9 million children

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more than in 2010 in good or

outstanding schools.

His complaint

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was not that nothing has been done

since 2010 but nothing can be done

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now.

It is still happening. Income

inequality is at its lowest level

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for 30 years. More taxes being paid

than under the Labour years. One of

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the worst things that can happen to

a child is to live in a workless

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household. The number of workless

households has been shrinking. And

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implement is at its lowest level

since 1975.

-- unemployment. Theresa

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May, when she became Prime Minister

last year, said this is a country of

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burning injustice.

It is. There is

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last year, said this is a country of

burning injustice.

It is. There is

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always more to be done. You say it

is in the past. This morning we have

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had an announcement that a

considerable amount of extra money

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will be devoted in helping children

facing mental health challenges in

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our schools. That is important as

well in relation to social mobility.

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Of course there is more to be done.

I think quite a lot of progress has

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been made on social mobility and

should not forget that.

Let's move

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on to wrecks it. You will have read

reports that she will offer a

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divorce bill somewhere between 40

billion and 50 billion euros, maybe

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slightly more. You said back in

April that you would be astonished

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if the bill was anything like 50

billion euros for the you must be

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producer prize.

We all started off

with aspirations. -- you must be

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pretty surprised. I do not know what

the sum will be. Whatever it is it

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will be a fraction of the amount we

have paid into the European Union

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over the last 40 years and would pay

into the European Union for the next

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40.

You are now fairly relaxed about

something around this mark?

I have

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confidence in the Prime Minister and

David Davis. I want to let them

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decide what is the best deal. I'm

confident we'll get a good deal. I'm

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confident in the Prime Minister and

David Davies.

You know the more

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money we spend on the divorce the

more bashes nevertheless many we

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have to spend on other things. Our

guest last week felt it had to be

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delivered to keep faith in the

process.

In the budget a few days

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ago the Government promised more

than an extra £350 million for the

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health service, running into almost

£2 billion.

They did not promise

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that in the budget?

Over time, more

money will be available when we are

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out. These payments, I don't know

what the sum would be, are going to

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be spread out over many years. The

annual bill will not be anything

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like that. In the end there will be

more money to spend on the health

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service and other desirable things

because we will not have to make

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this very large, annual contribution

we were making.

You have always been

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a committed Eurosceptic. Do not

worry that the European Union seem

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to be having it their way? They

wanted to discuss divorce before the

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trade deals. We agreed to that. The

divorce bill seems to have gone up

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substantially since Theresa May was

speaking in her Florence speech.

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They are getting what they want as

we are going through the process and

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we seem to be capitulating.

I do not

think that is fair. There is a huge

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amount of posturing, which always

goes on in negotiations. The

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approach of the European Union is in

breach of Article 50. Article 50

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says the arrangements for the

departure of a member state have to

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take into account the future

relationship of that state with the

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European Union. You cannot take

something into account if you are

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not prepared to talk about it. They

are in breach of Article 50. That is

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the approach they have chosen. I am

confident. I think we will move

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forward to the next phase, to pursue

Tom's analogy, I hope they will not

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be injury time at the end of the

first half and I hope we will get an

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agreement this month and then we can

start talking turkey.

Do you agree

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with the leave means leave letter in

the paper today without demanding

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the UK be free to sign employment

trade deals and note end to

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restriction is by the European Court

of Justice?

I share the aspirations

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contained in the letter.

You did not

sign it.

No.

Did they ask you to?

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No. I am not inclined to make

demands at this stage. I think they

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should be allowed to get on with the

negotiations. I have confidence in

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their ability to do so. I'm

confident that in the end will get a

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good deal in the interests of the UK

and of the European Union because

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there is a great commonality of

interest between the two of us to

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have a good relationship, a deep and

special relationship the Prime

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Minister has spoken of.

You are

trying not to be a back-seat driver.

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As a former leader of the Tory Party

you probably understand how annoying

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that will be that you are an

interested party entitled to your

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view on this. Iain Duncan Smith is

in the papers saying how important

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it is to end the authority of the

European Court of Justice. Is that a

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red line for you?

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I have every confidence in the Prime

Minister and in David Davis and I

0:16:450:16:48

think they will end up with a good

deal.

They're just going to pick up

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with our panel here. Listening to

Michael Howard there, very carefully

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trying not to step on the Prime

Minister's toes, but clearly he

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shares some sympathy with people who

do want to put some red lines on

0:17:040:17:08

her?

I know Michael Howard is a

forensic follower of politics, so

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I'm surprised he is completely

confident about Theresa May

0:17:120:17:16

delivering this, given that when she

returned from the last summit, when

0:17:160:17:20

she made her House of Commons

statement, she was clear, to my

0:17:200:17:24

surprise, actually, that during the

transition, I am not surprised in

0:17:240:17:28

how it turned out but I am surprised

she was so clear, that the European

0:17:280:17:33

court would hold some sway. It has

two, because if the transition is to

0:17:330:17:37

be effective, it means one way or

another we will still sort of be in

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the single market and Customs union

for a time and therefore the

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European court will hold some sway.

And she said it. I saw Jacob

0:17:450:17:50

Rees-Mogg's response of horror. But

she did say it. And so that is

0:17:500:17:55

already I think part of the

equation. So the response of her

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Brexiteers on this will be pivotal.

Iain Duncan Smith is not alone in

0:17:580:18:07

being absolutely resolute that the

ECJ will have nothing to do with

0:18:070:18:10

Britain?

Absolutely, and I think

that the concern amongst the harder

0:18:100:18:13

line Brexiteers is that this

transitional arrangement is a

0:18:130:18:20

continuation of the status quo, and

that it might even slip. Now, the

0:18:200:18:23

Prime Minister has try to be

reassuring on that, and there have

0:18:230:18:25

been indications it might slip a few

weeks but definitely not longer. But

0:18:250:18:31

I think that Brexit MPs want more

assurances that this will not end up

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just being kicked into the long

grass.

Will those assurances be

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given?

I don't think they will be.

She is going to have to compromise.

0:18:410:18:44

The other choice is to walk away. A

perfectly admirable choice but it is

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a choice she needs to make. The

interesting question is, what do

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these people plan to do about it?

What does Michael Howard plan to do

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if the £45 billion bill, which he is

now accepting, it would appear, the

0:18:590:19:08

four MPs and some other quite senior

party figures, what do they plan to

0:19:080:19:12

do if the Prime Minister

compromises? Will they vote against

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it, will they put their considerable

legislative weight, which Michael

0:19:160:19:22

Howard could do in the House of

Lords, against it?

Even though

0:19:220:19:25

you're being very diplomatic today,

is there a point at which you would

0:19:250:19:30

speak out if something you saw as

fundamentally unacceptable occurred?

0:19:300:19:35

That is a very hypothetical

question, Sarah!

The idea that you

0:19:350:19:40

might find something out of Brussels

being unacceptable is hypothetical?

0:19:400:19:43

Lets wait and see. I have said and I

am in danger of repeating myself, I

0:19:430:19:50

have every confidence in the Prime

Minister and in David Davis. I think

0:19:500:19:55

we will end up with a good deal. You

would in expect in negotiations like

0:19:550:20:01

this an awful lot of posturing.

Let

me into you because I need to ask

0:20:010:20:06

you about one other thing before we

go. Damian Green, you will know

0:20:060:20:12

there have been more stories

reported this week around the

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accusation that he viewed

pornography on a Parliamentary

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computer, something he absolutely

resolutely denies. If it is

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discovered that he wasn't telling

the truth when he told the Prime

0:20:220:20:25

Minister he hadn't done this, would

it be a resigning matter?

I don't

0:20:250:20:31

know, that is another hypothetical

question. Damian was my

0:20:310:20:35

Parliamentary neighbour for many

years, he has denied it and I

0:20:350:20:38

believe him and I agree with those

very senior figures yesterday who

0:20:380:20:41

condemned the leaking of information

by these retired police officers. I

0:20:410:20:46

think that's a very serious matter

indeed. Policing in this country is

0:20:460:20:52

based on trust between the police

and the public. And if we have...

0:20:520:21:04

Michael Howard, thank you very much

for talking to us.

0:21:040:21:08

The EU has warned Theresa May

that she must satisfy Irish demands,

0:21:080:21:11

if the Brexit negotiations

are to move forward this week.

0:21:110:21:13

But ahead of a crucial

meeting between Theresa May

0:21:130:21:15

and Jean-Claude Juncker tomorrow,

it seems there is still work to do.

0:21:150:21:18

Here's the Irish Foreign

Minister, Simon Coveney,

0:21:180:21:20

speaking this morning.

0:21:200:21:26

There is no desire in Ireland to

delay this process. But at the same

0:21:260:21:31

time we have irresponsibility as a

government to represent the

0:21:310:21:33

interests on the island of Ireland,

north and south. Let's not forget

0:21:330:21:37

that next year will be the 20th

anniversary of the Good Friday

0:21:370:21:40

Agreement, which is the basis for

the peace process, and relations

0:21:400:21:44

between Britain and Ireland on the

island of Ireland. And we believe

0:21:440:21:48

that as an island, Ireland is

uniquely vulnerable and exposed to a

0:21:480:21:54

potential bad outcome from Brexit.

0:21:540:21:59

With me now is the Shadow

International Trade

0:21:590:22:01

Secretary, Barry Gardiner.

0:22:010:22:06

Obviously, it is absolutely crucial

that a resolution is found to this

0:22:060:22:09

problem - what is Labour's position?

I think you have to proceed here on

0:22:090:22:13

the basis of principles. The first

principle is, do nothing that

0:22:130:22:17

damages the peace process. The

second principle is, do nothing that

0:22:170:22:21

averages the economy. And by that I

mean both the economy and Northern

0:22:210:22:27

Ireland, in Ireland as a whole and

in the UK and Ireland as a whole.

0:22:270:22:33

Now, that means that we have to...

But that's the impossible conundrum,

0:22:330:22:40

how to do all of those things at

once?

It can't be impossible,

0:22:400:22:42

because we've got to do it. Of

course it is being made much more

0:22:420:22:45

difficult by the government's red

lines on this. And the government

0:22:450:22:49

has stated very publicly and clearly

that it wants to come out of the

0:22:490:22:54

customs union and the single market.

And of course, what actually creates

0:22:540:22:57

checks at the border is when you

have regulator we variants and when

0:22:570:23:02

you have product standards that are

different. So, that means that you

0:23:020:23:05

have to check what's coming in and

out for any tariffs that you wish to

0:23:050:23:09

impose. Now, that's why it has been,

I think and my party thinks, foolish

0:23:090:23:15

to have removed the structural

possibilities which lie in the

0:23:150:23:20

customs union or the single market,

from what the government's

0:23:200:23:25

negotiating position is.

That's very

interesting, because I can see

0:23:250:23:30

clearly, and so can the Irish

government, exactly how staying in

0:23:300:23:33

the customs union and the single

market would help resolve the

0:23:330:23:36

question for the island of Ireland,

but also it raises questions for the

0:23:360:23:40

United Kingdom. It is also

interesting because if we have a

0:23:400:23:44

look at what you say back in July,

who didn't sound quite as pleased

0:23:440:23:47

about the single market, when you

said we would in effect become a

0:23:470:23:52

vassal state, obliged to pay into

the EU budget and having even less

0:23:520:23:57

sovereignty than we do now - you

weren't so keen on the single market

0:23:570:24:01

then?

I am not so keen on the single

market membership as opposed to

0:24:010:24:03

being a member of the EU. Single

market membership without being a

0:24:030:24:07

member of the EU means that you do

not have a say in the rules which

0:24:070:24:12

you have to abide by.

But we're

leaving the EU, let's take that as a

0:24:120:24:16

given.

Let's talk about where we are

going forward. I was setting out

0:24:160:24:21

very clearly, and I don't think you

would disagree with what I said, I

0:24:210:24:27

was setting out very clearly the

applications of leaving the EU in

0:24:270:24:30

the way that the government had set

out. And those implications are

0:24:300:24:33

clear. I believe I set them out

correctly. Where we are now is, we

0:24:330:24:38

have to find a solution to this

problem. Simon Coveney was actually

0:24:380:24:43

earlier very clear in saying that

you don't have to have a full

0:24:430:24:47

solution in phase one, but there has

to be the real expectation that

0:24:470:24:53

we're going to be able to resolve it

in phase two. The first thing that

0:24:530:24:58

both sides need to say here is that

we will look at the Common Travel

0:24:580:25:01

Area, which has existed since 1922,

and that should be part and parcel

0:25:010:25:05

of the deal going forward. The

second element that I think is

0:25:050:25:07

really important here is to

understand precisely what the peace

0:25:070:25:14

settlement was, when in the Good

Friday Agreement in 1998 we set out

0:25:140:25:19

that there should be no security

checks at the border. That was

0:25:190:25:23

critically important. But of course,

security checks in those days were

0:25:230:25:26

in place because of the situation,

the military, paramilitary

0:25:260:25:30

situation. But when those security

checks were taken away, because we

0:25:300:25:36

were members of the single market

and because we were members of the

0:25:360:25:41

customs union, there were no

additional customs checks. Now, to

0:25:410:25:44

say that you order the Good Friday

Agreement and have no security

0:25:440:25:47

checks, with all the military

paraphernalia that goes with that,

0:25:470:25:52

does not mean that you cannot have

typified customs checks. But those

0:25:520:25:59

customs checks will only be put in

place if the government wants to

0:25:590:26:03

deregulate. My party doesn't. My

party doesn't want to deregulate, we

0:26:030:26:08

don't want to impose these

terrorists. The government is in a

0:26:080:26:15

bind here, because most of the key

players around of Brexit want to

0:26:150:26:17

deregulate, and that means there

have to be tariffs, and that means

0:26:170:26:21

they have to be imposed at a border.

Jeremy Corbyn yesterday refused to

0:26:210:26:25

rule out the possibility of a second

referendum on our EU membership - is

0:26:250:26:29

it now the Labour Party's policy

that we might vote again on this?

0:26:290:26:34

No, it's not.

Why did he say we have

not made any decision on a second

0:26:340:26:37

referendum?

That precisely says that

it is not, because policy because we

0:26:370:26:42

have not made a decision on it!

You

could make a decision Ameobi not to

0:26:420:26:48

have a second referendum?

Let's be

absolutely upfront about this. The

0:26:480:26:51

idea that you would have a second

referendum, I think you would say

0:26:510:26:56

you were going to have a second

referendum. Like the Liberal

0:26:560:26:59

Democrats have done. That would be

to encourage the EU to give you the

0:26:590:27:03

worst possible deal that there was,

so that when you're then voted on

0:27:030:27:09

it, everybody would say, we can't

possibly go there. The key thing, in

0:27:090:27:15

my view, is that it was always

foolish, always foolish, to have a

0:27:150:27:21

50% class one referendum. Because if

you are trying to...

That's what we

0:27:210:27:24

had, we are now looking at the

future. I'm talking about the

0:27:240:27:29

future. It sounds like Jeremy Corbyn

is saying it is a possibility that

0:27:290:27:34

Labour might call for one?

I am

trying to answer your question. I am

0:27:340:27:39

not trying to avoid it. When we go

forward, if we were to have another

0:27:390:27:43

referendum on the same lines as we

have had, and it were to be 52-48

0:27:430:27:46

the other way, what would that

achieve hammered absolutely nothing.

0:27:460:27:52

It would then be game on for a third

or fourth referendum. The only way

0:27:520:27:56

in which in my view you could

possibly contemplate a second

0:27:560:28:00

referendum would be if you had a

threshold which I believe should

0:28:000:28:02

have been there in the first place

of a two thirds majority. But that I

0:28:020:28:07

stress is not Labour Party policy,

it is not something that we've

0:28:070:28:10

decided, and Jeremy Corbyn

articulated that yesterday.

Have you

0:28:100:28:18

spoken to Diane Abbott, who has

written to two constituents in the

0:28:180:28:21

past month saying she would make the

case for a second referendum?

Diane

0:28:210:28:26

has already said that letter was

poorly worded Pozzo, as she called

0:28:260:28:30

it. I will not make any further

comment on it.

0:28:300:28:36

The Shadow Chancellor,

John McDonnell, came in for a bit

0:28:360:28:39

of flak recently when he admitted

that Labour was preparing

0:28:390:28:41

for possible negative scenarios,

such as a run on the pound,

0:28:410:28:44

if it wins power.

0:28:440:28:47

Speaking on the fringes

of his party's conference, he said

0:28:470:28:52

he was carrying out "war game-type

scenario planning" in the event

0:28:520:28:54

of an election victory.

0:28:540:28:56

John McDonnell, the man

helping Mr McDonald.

0:28:560:28:57

Well, the man helping

Mr McDonnell do that is

0:28:570:28:59

the academic Richard Barbrook.

0:28:590:29:00

He's also the man behind

'Games for the Many' -

0:29:000:29:03

the political gaming studio

that produced CorbynRun.

0:29:030:29:04

Ellie Price went along to meet him.

0:29:040:29:10

You may have seen some of these

during the election.

0:29:100:29:12

In May Bot, the gamer helps the PM

shoot, run and slide

0:29:120:29:15

her way to dystopia.

0:29:150:29:16

And then downloaded 150,000 times

in the first week of

0:29:160:29:19

the campaign alone, Corbyn Run,

which sees Jeremy Corbyn shaking

0:29:190:29:22

down bankers to pay

for policy pledges.

0:29:220:29:25

And it's one of the things

the Labour leadership think can win

0:29:250:29:27

them the next election.

0:29:270:29:30

It put an idea out there

that you can actually

0:29:300:29:38

engage in politics in a way

which is both a good laugh,

0:29:380:29:42

enjoy the game.

0:29:420:29:44

But actually it is quite

stimulating as well.

0:29:440:29:46

What happened was, that

prompted ideas about a

0:29:460:29:48

fair taxation system

and the policies that

0:29:480:29:49

were being launched.

0:29:490:29:50

It's new creative way into ideas.

0:29:500:29:52

Are you worried that

the Tories will catch on?

0:29:520:29:54

They most probably will catch on.

0:29:540:30:00

But it's not just about the medium,

it is about the message as well.

0:30:000:30:04

Richard, what is happening here?

0:30:040:30:05

It's a games jam.

Right.

0:30:050:30:06

People are coming together

to make app games,

0:30:060:30:08

laptop games, board games, getting

ready for the local elections in May

0:30:080:30:11

to propagate Labour's message.

0:30:110:30:12

And is it really working?

0:30:120:30:13

You have 50-odd people here, that's

hardly going to change the world.

0:30:130:30:16

No.

0:30:160:30:17

I'm from the punk generation.

0:30:170:30:23

The first time I saw

the Sex Pistols, there were 40 or 50

0:30:230:30:26

people in the room.

0:30:260:30:27

Then, in the late-80s,

I went to the very early raves

0:30:270:30:30

and again there were very

small groups of people.

0:30:300:30:32

Yet, in both cases, these

cultures, you start off

0:30:320:30:34

with small groups of people

and they can suddenly

0:30:340:30:36

become a mass phenomenom.

0:30:360:30:37

And, I'm reliably informed,

it isn't just for computer geeks.

0:30:370:30:40

Yes, we've got people

here who are activists and have

0:30:400:30:42

never coded in their lives

and they're using tools,

0:30:420:30:45

with which you can make games

with no coding skills.

0:30:450:30:49

I'm not sure I believe

you but here is a challenge.

0:30:490:30:51

Can you make me a game?

0:30:510:30:53

Yes, I can.

0:30:530:30:54

The challenge begins.

0:30:540:31:03

OK.

0:31:030:31:04

I'm done.

0:31:040:31:05

That took less than half an hour.

0:31:050:31:06

Can I see it?

0:31:060:31:07

Yeah, of course.

0:31:070:31:09

You go up to John and he says,

"We're making games to change the

0:31:090:31:12

face of politics."

0:31:120:31:13

Then you go up to Jeremy

and he says, "for the many,

0:31:130:31:16

not the few."

0:31:160:31:17

OK, so it's not exactly Super Mario

but Labour are looking

0:31:170:31:19

at another kind of gaming,

so-called war-gaming.

0:31:190:31:22

Considering possible

future scenarios.

0:31:220:31:24

Something John McDonnell

talked about at the last

0:31:240:31:26

Labour Conference.

0:31:260:31:29

What if there is a run

on the pound, what happens if

0:31:290:31:34

there is this concept

of capital flight?

0:31:340:31:36

I don't think there

will but you never know

0:31:360:31:38

so we've got a scenario

planned for that.

0:31:380:31:42

Richard is also part

of the Shadow Treasury

0:31:420:31:45

war-gaming team, who are expected

to meet again in the next few weeks.

0:31:450:31:48

If people are going to trust us

with their jobs and their pensions

0:31:480:31:51

and their livelihoods,

we've got to show

0:31:510:31:53

we know what we are doing.

0:31:530:31:54

This seems like common sense to me.

0:31:540:31:58

From games jams like these,

Labour hoped to create a campaign

0:31:580:32:02

tool that will take them to the next

level - Downing Street.

0:32:020:32:04

If politics is a game,

there are novel ways to play.

0:32:040:32:08

And Richard Barbrook joins me now.

0:32:080:32:14

Thanks for coming in. John McDonnell

said the conference he was working

0:32:140:32:19

with you are looking at different

scenarios I possibly around on the

0:32:190:32:23

pound. It caused huge amount of

controversy. Can you understand why?

0:32:230:32:29

I was actually. Surprised that

people are surprised that political

0:32:290:32:34

parties are not doing this. The

military, the civil service,

0:32:340:32:38

Corporation Banks, they all do this.

The surprise was one would imagine

0:32:380:32:43

that a Labour government neither

hoped nor predicted there would be a

0:32:430:32:46

run on the pound and capital flight.

Given the fanaticism of the present

0:32:460:32:54

government, probably when we get

elected, the pound would likely go

0:32:540:32:58

up. You need to think about these

problems beforehand. There are

0:32:580:33:05

potential difficulties to foresee.

You can scenario plan for those. You

0:33:050:33:10

can read about problems coming up

ahead and you can talk about them

0:33:100:33:14

but actually to experience in a game

like atmosphere, the pressures of

0:33:140:33:20

making decisions... You can identify

problems and think about solutions,

0:33:200:33:24

try out ideas. If it does not work

you can reiterate again and again

0:33:240:33:29

and again.

When the Treasury does

something like this, with very

0:33:290:33:33

complex statistical models and huge

amounts of data, can you feed it

0:33:330:33:37

into a scenario?

You can on that

basis. What you can do more is test

0:33:370:33:45

the team coming together and seeing

how it responds under pressure. A

0:33:450:33:49

good example, if you think about the

National Health Service. If it were

0:33:490:33:54

a flu pandemic they would have to

think about how to reallocate

0:33:540:33:57

resources. There would be sickness

amongst staff, more people going to

0:33:570:34:01

hospitals and you get together a

group of people responsible for

0:34:010:34:05

running the NHS. You put them

together and put them through a

0:34:050:34:08

three-hour simulation of it and that

is the same sort of thing we are

0:34:080:34:15

doing. We are looking at what

happens when Labour gets in, the

0:34:150:34:17

first 100 days in power, for the

first budget, what would you do?

0:34:170:34:21

Whether it is a run on the pound or

something, you create pressures and

0:34:210:34:26

problems for them to create the idea

of how they have to operate as a

0:34:260:34:31

team.

Does that give you the

opportunity to stress test some of

0:34:310:34:36

the more radical policies that

Labour came up with in the last

0:34:360:34:39

manifesto like nationalising the

water companies or electricity firms

0:34:390:34:43

or something like that?

It is only

maybe in this media bubble in

0:34:430:34:55

Britain that we think neoliberalism

is the only alternative.

Those are

0:34:550:34:57

to mainstream for you to bother

about?

I said the initial simulation

0:34:570:35:00

as any of the first 100 days we are

looking at how we would put together

0:35:000:35:04

a budget. That is not really what

the focus is. It is making it

0:35:040:35:12

happen, the decision-making process.

That is what you are trying to train

0:35:120:35:16

people for. The military does this,

the civil service does this put up

0:35:160:35:19

if you do not do this you are in a

very bad position. The election, the

0:35:190:35:26

Liberal Democrats did no contingency

planning as to what would happen if

0:35:260:35:30

there were a hung parliament but the

civil service did. They ripped

0:35:300:35:35

people into becoming a junior

appendage of the Tory Party with the

0:35:350:35:39

disastrous results that came from

that.

Is this the kind of

0:35:390:35:45

discussions that a Shadow Cabinet

would be having in the run-up to the

0:35:450:35:49

general election anyway? That is

that fundamental job of an

0:35:490:35:53

opposition.

This is a fundamental

method of doing it. You are just

0:35:530:35:59

surprised that a political parties

doing this. If you are the military

0:35:590:36:03

or the civil service you use this

tool. You are just surprised... I am

0:36:030:36:08

surprised that you are surprised.

The other thing you are doing

0:36:080:36:13

separate from the war game scenario,

the apps and the games go further --

0:36:130:36:18

which you say can further political

engagement, are they really

0:36:180:36:26

spreading a message?

A good example

is the Jeremy Corbyn ran.

I have

0:36:260:36:35

is the Jeremy Corbyn ran.

I have

played that. It is about mugging

0:36:360:36:38

bankers in the streets.

0:36:380:36:42

bankers in the streets.

Why we have

austerities is about the tax cuts.

0:36:420:36:45

You reverse that and you campaign

fuel social programme. In doing so,

0:36:450:36:49

it shows that you are more

successful in raising revenue can

0:36:490:36:52

unlock

0:36:520:36:54

unlock certain pledges and people

join your campaign.

0:36:540:36:58

join your campaign.

Stay there if

you will. I will come to the panel.

0:36:580:37:01

Do you think this sounds like a

useful, political tool, to sit there

0:37:010:37:05

in a game like atmosphere and work

hard to intimate radical programme

0:37:050:37:10

for government?

Yes. It sounds

sensible and not the only thing they

0:37:100:37:15

are doing. I can see them Maya city

of John McDonnell was to speak aloud

0:37:150:37:20

in any context about a potential run

on the pound. -- naivete. To prepare

0:37:200:37:26

for eventualities, prepare for the

first 100 days by using all kinds of

0:37:260:37:33

devices, is highly sensible.

Even if

it has been publicised to working

0:37:330:37:39

with games developers.

You kept

0:37:390:37:43

with games developers.

You kept

going on about military, war-gaming

0:37:430:37:44

exercises. I am co-authoring a book

on defence at the moment. In one of

0:37:440:37:49

the most important

0:37:490:37:51

the most important recent war-gaming

exercises we did with the Americans,

0:37:510:37:55

we were wiped out within a day

because our targeting policy was so

0:37:550:37:59

outdated. I think the fear in the

city is exactly that would happen

0:37:590:38:04

economically because your economic

policy is so outdated.

0:38:040:38:09

policy is so outdated.

I will let

you respond to that and ask you

0:38:090:38:13

another question as well.

She is

just the Tory Troll.

0:38:130:38:19

just the Tory Troll.

I'm not a

member of the Tory Party. No reason

0:38:190:38:23

to be impolite to people.

0:38:230:38:28

to be impolite to people. If Morgan

Stanley came here and said we want

0:38:280:38:31

to

0:38:310:38:33

to game out what a Labour government

would mean for business, would you

0:38:330:38:37

do that?

I would not do it but I

would be very surprised if they are

0:38:370:38:42

not already doing that.

Thank you

for coming

0:38:420:38:54

Good morning and welcome

to Sunday Politics Scotland.

0:38:540:38:57

Coming up on the programme:

0:38:570:38:58

Marred with resignations,

suspensions and criticisms over

0:38:580:39:00

transparency and leadership -

0:39:000:39:01

Scotland's police

force is in crisis.

0:39:010:39:04

I'll be speaking to Susan Deacon,

the new chairwoman of

0:39:040:39:07

the Scottish Police Authority.

0:39:070:39:09

Can she clean up the mess?

0:39:090:39:13

And the latest talks

over the transfer of EU

0:39:130:39:15

powers to Scotland

ended without a deal.

0:39:150:39:17

Again.

0:39:170:39:18

I'll be asking

the Scottish Secretary

0:39:180:39:20

and Scotland's Brexit Minister.

0:39:200:39:21

What's the hold up?

0:39:210:39:27

A number of officers had been

suspended from Police Scotland and

0:39:270:39:33

there investigation is underway into

their conduct.

0:39:330:39:36

The Justice Secretary Michael

Matheson says there's nothing

0:39:360:39:38

to worry about and concerns raised

over confidence in police

0:39:380:39:40

officers are unfounded.

0:39:400:39:41

But how does the media coverage

of such a scandal affect

0:39:410:39:44

the public's perception

of the force?

0:39:440:39:45

Well, joining me this morning,

is the new chairwoman

0:39:450:39:47

of the Scottish Police

Authority, Susan Deacon.

0:39:470:39:51

We should make clear, you join

tomorrow morning. Clear Baker of the

0:39:510:40:01

Labour Party said, "Confidence in

the ability of the Scottish Police

0:40:010:40:07

Authority to do its job is that an

all-time low." That was before the

0:40:070:40:12

latest round of thing started. Do

you accept there is a serious issue

0:40:120:40:17

about public confidence in both the

Scottish Police Authority and the

0:40:170:40:24

police at the moment?

The SBA has

had a fairly bumpy ride over the

0:40:240:40:29

last few years. It will be important

that they are seen to work

0:40:290:40:32

effectively so it can play its part

in driving forward, provide some of

0:40:320:40:38

that...

They seem to be working

chaotically.

Well, a lot has been

0:40:380:40:47

achieved in a short period of time

and I have to take issue with the

0:40:470:40:51

idea that our police service is in

crisis. Policing is improving. I do

0:40:510:40:55

not doubt Freeman at the challenges

that lie ahead both in terms of

0:40:550:40:59

taking forward and developing our

services and that the public,

0:40:590:41:08

politicians and others can have

confidence in. Come tomorrow, that

0:41:080:41:12

is my job to make improvements in

that area.

What is the first thing

0:41:120:41:17

you do to get it back?

Has been so

much attention on the inner workings

0:41:170:41:24

of the authority itself, and

isolated place to be. People have

0:41:240:41:28

been working hard, I recognise that.

Without question, there are

0:41:280:41:32

improvements only be made.

Parliament, Majesty's inspector has

0:41:320:41:39

produced a report on this, work is

underway, but I want to make we

0:41:390:41:44

accelerate the pace of that

improvement so we get the authority

0:41:440:41:48

any place with the focus is not on

what it does in terms of how it

0:41:480:41:53

operates, but rather what it does in

terms of helping the public,

0:41:530:41:57

Parliament and others to scrutinise

Police Scotland as it goes forward.

0:41:570:42:02

Critically, what the authority does

to help drive improvement and change

0:42:020:42:08

in our police service.

The

investigations haven't been

0:42:080:42:12

completed yet, but there is going to

have to be a new chief.

As you know,

0:42:120:42:18

this has been discussed on this

programme and an immediate, there

0:42:180:42:21

are a number of different processors

currently in place and I for 1am not

0:42:210:42:28

going to comment on those. What I

would say is that the Scottish

0:42:280:42:33

Police Authority is one of a number

of organisations that has a

0:42:330:42:38

responsibility in this area,

alongside the police investigations

0:42:380:42:41

and review commission. It's really

important going forward that we

0:42:410:42:47

should at all the bodies involved in

dealing with conduct issues and

0:42:470:42:51

dealing with complaints only arise

operate a system that the public can

0:42:510:42:56

have trust in, but also I think is

sensitive to the individuals

0:42:560:42:59

involved in it. Issues of

confidentiality are important, too.

0:42:590:43:06

That was touched on in Holyrood this

week.

Let's take the officers who

0:43:060:43:12

have recently been suspended. The

Scottish Police Federation says it's

0:43:120:43:17

not fair that they have been

suspended, whereas the chief, is to

0:43:170:43:22

is on special leave. There are

reports this morning that Bernard

0:43:220:43:26

Higgins, the assistant chief, the

asked for a similar deal and was

0:43:260:43:32

refused. I know Michael Matheson was

on this programme last week

0:43:320:43:35

explaining the processors.

0:43:350:43:41

explaining the processors. As a

matter of maths.

0:43:410:43:46

explaining the processors. As a

matter of Natural justice, it

0:43:460:43:47

doesn't seem fair that these people

have been suspended whereas the

0:43:470:43:50

chief comes to a zombie.

I am not

going to comment on individual

0:43:500:43:56

cases, least of all when I have not

started in the post or been privy to

0:43:560:44:00

the details of them. The commitment

I will give going forward... In

0:44:000:44:08

terms of the filling is well and

functions both in life cases and in

0:44:080:44:14

terms of developing beef system in

the future. -- developing the system

0:44:140:44:20

in the future.

I know you don't want

to comment...

It's not about...

The

0:44:200:44:28

former Justice Secretary says the

very least the FPA could have done

0:44:280:44:31

is waited for you to take up your

job tomorrow morning. -- the very

0:44:310:44:35

least SPA could have done.

Is not

about not wanting to talk about

0:44:350:44:41

individual cases, it's completely

improper to do so when I am not even

0:44:410:44:46

privy to the facts. I give

commitment to look very carefully at

0:44:460:44:50

the cases live and more generally,

these are new systems and

0:44:500:44:54

procedures. The body I am about to

take over as chair of relatively new

0:44:540:44:59

organisation and I believe we should

always work to improve...

I

0:44:590:45:04

understand you don't want to involve

yourself in individual cases, but

0:45:040:45:07

will you have a look at this?

Because the allegation from the

0:45:070:45:14

Police Federation is that natural

justice has been broken. If you

0:45:140:45:17

determine that is the case, will you

consider at least lifting the

0:45:170:45:24

suspensions on these officers?

Do

you know, I think one of the things

0:45:240:45:29

that has been a legitimate criticism

of

0:45:290:45:35

of the SPA is that they have not

communicated effectively or it might

0:45:350:45:40

not have been as open and

transparent as it can be. Let me

0:45:400:45:44

make a wider point. Going forward, I

want that to change. I want the

0:45:440:45:49

authority to be much more engaged

and engaging so that people can see

0:45:490:45:53

via the Prez of that authority what

is going on in policing in Scotland.

0:45:530:45:59

That is not the same as opening up

heat and every individual case to

0:45:590:46:04

day by day commentary to discussion

in the press.

I am not saying that.

0:46:040:46:14

I have said already that of course

when I go into that job tomorrow, of

0:46:140:46:18

course I will look and be briefed on

and will want to satisfy myself that

0:46:180:46:24

I understand where things are at

with each of these cases and

0:46:240:46:27

particularly what the role of the

Scottish Police Authority is going

0:46:270:46:32

forward. You are right, there are a

number of different agencies and

0:46:320:46:38

investigating bodies if you have to

do the job. I will not comment on

0:46:380:46:43

life cases. I cannot comment on what

has been done prior to my arrival in

0:46:430:46:46

that poorest.

0:46:460:46:53

that poorest. -- post.

If he did

look at these cases and decided

0:46:530:46:56

those officers should not be

suspended, is it in your power in

0:46:560:46:59

the case of them or any other

officers to lift the suspension?

I

0:46:590:47:06

will not deal in hypothetical.

I am

just acting if it's in your power?

0:47:060:47:12

Anyone watching this programme in

any organisation of any sort,

0:47:120:47:18

private or public, will know that

each individual in any matter of

0:47:180:47:21

conduct is different. The idea that

we can sit here and speculate or

0:47:210:47:27

generalise about what could, should

or might happen...

I was just asking

0:47:270:47:31

whether you had the power. In June,

the high majesty's inspector two

0:47:310:47:41

inspector of Constabulary said there

was a fundamental weakness and what

0:47:410:47:46

they were getting out was they

didn't believe managers in SPA where

0:47:460:47:50

properly equipped to give advice to

the board. Do you accept that and

0:47:500:47:56

what do you intend to do about it?

That has been one of a number of

0:47:560:48:00

reports that have voiced various

criticisms about how the Scottish

0:48:000:48:07

Police Authority could and should

develop in the future. I think there

0:48:070:48:11

are some very important observations

made there. Change has happened

0:48:110:48:18

during that time, I know that

because I have been looking at it

0:48:180:48:25

SPA from the outside in in

considerable detail. As you know,

0:48:250:48:32

alongside my appointment, there is a

new chief officer. I think there are

0:48:320:48:36

quite considerable

responsibilities...

Transparency is

0:48:360:48:42

one of the things you want to look

at?

Absolutely.

In the future, this

0:48:420:48:48

was the issue in the case of my

alley, if the board member of filthy

0:48:480:48:56

disagree with the decision, they

will be able to speak about it in

0:48:560:49:01

public without those problems caused

by -- if a board members feels the

0:49:010:49:05

disagree...

I want to see in all its

business that it... There is a

0:49:050:49:15

clarity for those looking into the

organisation about were discussions

0:49:150:49:20

and decisions are taking place and

where things necessarily need to be

0:49:200:49:24

considered in private. Any public

body knows that you need to do both.

0:49:240:49:29

Then it's understood and

communicated well why things are

0:49:290:49:32

being done in private.

But forward

members will be able to have their

0:49:320:49:36

say?

Of course.

Well, you say of

course, but that was the issue

0:49:360:49:43

before.

I can only talk about how I

will conduct myself.

Will you invite

0:49:430:49:51

her to rejoin the board?

We have a

round of appointments coming up for

0:49:510:49:57

it the SPA board in the natural

random things and that is an open

0:49:570:50:02

public appointments process.

She

would be welcome to apply?

I hope we

0:50:020:50:07

would have a wide range of

applications and it's an opportunity

0:50:070:50:10

to drive change but I want to see

happen in the months ahead.

Thank

0:50:100:50:15

you much. You are saying this is a

part-time job. Best of luck with

0:50:150:50:20

that one is all I can say. Thank you

very much.

0:50:200:50:23

Now it's another tumultuous Sunday

morning for politicians

0:50:270:50:28

fighting the Brexit battle.

0:50:280:50:31

Four board members on the UK

Government's Social Mobility

0:50:310:50:37

Commission have resigned.

0:50:370:50:38

And leading Brexit supporters have

written to the Prime Minister

0:50:380:50:41

urging her to walk away

from negotiations with EU

0:50:410:50:43

leaders unless they meet

a series of demands.

0:50:430:50:53

It is that time of year, a season

filled with love, goodwill and

0:51:000:51:05

reconciliation.

It is a standard

night for hours.

A cosy night.

0:51:050:51:14

Roasting chicken. You are hereby

pardoned.

Remarkable things happen

0:51:140:51:20

around this time of year, the

arrival of the baby Jesus. The

0:51:200:51:26

Christmas truce of the First World

War, and the outbreak of harmony

0:51:260:51:29

between the SNP and Tories. How

different it was back in the summer,

0:51:290:51:34

when Theresa May was accused of not

listening to Scottish concerns about

0:51:340:51:40

macro one. -- Brexit. Believe it or

not, Christmas turkeys are good

0:51:400:51:48

illustration of the issues at play.

At the moment Brussels controls farm

0:51:480:51:53

subsidies, under the terms of the EU

withdrawal bill from the government,

0:51:530:51:58

all powers will return to

Westminster after Brexit rather than

0:51:580:52:02

Holyrood. The Scottish Government

complains that amounted to a

0:52:020:52:07

Westminster power grab. As forward

to last week and there was goodwill

0:52:070:52:11

to all men as UK and Scottish

ministers met in Edinburgh. Talks

0:52:110:52:15

broke up without a deal although

both sides progress had been made.

I

0:52:150:52:20

think we are closer to deal than we

have been in the past few months

0:52:200:52:24

because the mood music since

September has changed significantly

0:52:240:52:28

on the part of the Scottish

Government. A few months ago,

0:52:280:52:33

Theresa May wasn't even a human

being, they found it difficult to

0:52:330:52:37

discuss anything weather, the UK

Government was being reckless.

That

0:52:370:52:41

or no is much more constructive.

Scottish Government is not demanding

0:52:410:52:45

all powers return to Holyrood.

0:52:450:52:56

This is now about shared frameworks.

It looks like the moving forward,

0:52:570:53:02

talking about common UK frameworks,

how those would be decided, although

0:53:020:53:07

it is not clear to me that Wales and

Scotland would have a lot of

0:53:070:53:11

influence at the end of the date on

how it will be decided, will they be

0:53:110:53:15

given a veto, will we set up by EU

style system within the UK, I do not

0:53:150:53:21

think so.

Whatever the arrangements,

the Scottish and Welsh governments

0:53:210:53:24

wanted tabled in two the

negotiations. There is a role to

0:53:240:53:33

further Scottish parliament. NCB

MSPs can refuse Westminster

0:53:330:53:37

permission to pass a law that

impacts on devolved matters. What is

0:53:370:53:43

known as a legislative consent

motion isn't legally binding. As we

0:53:430:53:47

know from the Supreme Court decision

sometime back, there is no legal

0:53:470:53:52

basis to veto that.

Therefore it is

political symbolism. I think the

0:53:520:53:58

Scottish Government is realising the

political capital book to be arrived

0:53:580:54:01

from refusing to consent to one is

limited.

Theresa May's government is

0:54:010:54:10

facing a Brexit battle on many

fronts, not least the status of the

0:54:100:54:18

Irish border. That will be one less

headache to worry about.

0:54:180:54:22

Graham Stewart with that report.

0:54:220:54:23

As he mentioned, that meeting

on Thursday was attended by

0:54:230:54:26

Deputy First Minister John Swinney

and Scotland's Brexit

0:54:260:54:28

Minister Mike Russell.

0:54:280:54:30

A little earlier I spoke

to him from Portavadie.

0:54:300:54:38

First of all, Mike Russell, the lock

behind you is looking lovely

0:54:380:54:47

tomorrow -- painter. The latest

round of talks between the Scottish

0:54:470:54:50

Government and the UK Government

were held earlier this week. The

0:54:500:54:55

Scottish Secretary said there was

significant progress.

Is that you're

0:54:550:54:58

reading of it? We are making

progress, but a great deal now

0:54:580:55:04

depends on changing the withdrawal

bill. The UK Government knows that,

0:55:040:55:08

the bill is in the House of Commons

tomorrow and it is vital that that

0:55:080:55:11

bill changes. Neither ourselves or

the Welsh government can do except

0:55:110:55:16

the bill as it stands, because it

undermines devolution, it will cause

0:55:160:55:22

damage to Scotland, Wales and

Northern Ireland. We are making

0:55:220:55:26

progress on the framework. We hope

we can come to a conclusion on it.

0:55:260:55:30

But it will require a change to the

bill.

On that there was talk of, in

0:55:300:55:36

fact you seem to agree with the

Scottish Conservatives were

0:55:360:55:40

proposing that the Scottish

Government and them and the British

0:55:400:55:43

government could collectively draw

up amendments to the bill, that you

0:55:430:55:47

could all support. Are there any

such amendments yet and if not why

0:55:470:55:52

not?

No, there are no such

amendments and you would have to ask

0:55:520:55:59

the Scottish Conservatives why they

have not bought those forward. There

0:55:590:56:01

are some amendments being discussed

tomorrow, those are amendments we

0:56:010:56:06

have drawn up with the Welsh bill.

The point I made during the week

0:56:060:56:11

when I appeared before the relative

committee in Holyrood, if there are

0:56:110:56:15

alternative amendments that achieve

the same thing and they are brought

0:56:150:56:18

forward by anybody, we will sit down

and discuss them. But we have to see

0:56:180:56:23

them, talking about them is not

enough.

The suggestion is, you were

0:56:230:56:27

sympathetic to this, was that you

are in the Scottish Conservatives

0:56:270:56:33

would agree an amendment. Are you

saying there are never were any

0:56:330:56:37

tops, that you could not agree or

that they never write anything

0:56:370:56:40

forward?

No, no. We are continuing

to talk. Are amendments tabled and

0:56:400:56:47

are sitting there waiting to be

voted on, hopefully tomorrow. The

0:56:470:56:52

reality of the situation if there is

to be progress, the bill will have

0:56:520:56:56

to be changed. If our amendments are

not good enough with the

0:56:560:56:59

Conservatives, then what I have said

and I said it again during the week,

0:56:590:57:04

is we will discuss alternatives of

people have them. We would have to

0:57:040:57:07

do that with the Welsh government,

this has to be a multilateral

0:57:070:57:12

process.

0:57:120:57:17

process. We are not precious about

the wording of amendments. What we

0:57:170:57:20

have to do is achieve the results.

We have to make sure that devolution

0:57:200:57:22

is established and not undermine.

Those discussions are going on, they

0:57:220:57:25

are going with the UK Government and

other parties, but we do not want to

0:57:250:57:29

leave anyone in any doubt, if the

bill is not amendment, there cannot

0:57:290:57:34

be the progress that the UK

Government wants.

If you got

0:57:340:57:38

amendments agree that you could

support that changes the bill in the

0:57:380:57:42

way that you want, with SNP MPs vote

for the Brexit bill?

That is a

0:57:420:57:49

different matter. What we are

talking about is getting the bill

0:57:490:57:52

into a form which does not undermine

devolution. This bill has a lot of

0:57:520:57:57

distance to go. It is only in the

Commons committee stage, it has

0:57:570:58:02

still got the House of Lords to go

to, there might be a difference

0:58:020:58:05

between the Lords and the House of

Commons. There are things in the

0:58:050:58:08

bill that many of us thoroughly

dislike. What we have focused on is

0:58:080:58:14

primarily to do with devolution.

That is proper because that is our

0:58:140:58:19

concern on these matters. Whether or

not the SNP vote for the bill is up

0:58:190:58:22

to the SNP group. The issue of human

rights which has not been addressed

0:58:220:58:28

in the bill, the issue of

protections for the environment has

0:58:280:58:32

not been addressed, the issue of the

Charter of rights has not been

0:58:320:58:36

addressed.

But what the UK

Government would say... So we can

0:58:360:58:40

give legislative consent. What they

UK Government would say, what is the

0:58:400:58:46

point of agreeing a few amendments

to the bill if having agreed those

0:58:460:58:51

amendments, you vote against it

anyway.

The question and issue here

0:58:510:58:56

is, the two questions at issue here,

can we give legislative consent? The

0:58:560:59:03

constitutional crisis will deepen.

Secondly, as a practical business,

0:59:030:59:09

is the UK is leaving the EU and many

of us think it is a daft idea, if

0:59:090:59:14

the UK is living the EU, can we get

frameworks in place that will it

0:59:140:59:18

allow us to continue to work in

areas without a cliff edge. It is

0:59:180:59:25

about that cliff edge and making

sure we have those frameworks in

0:59:250:59:29

place, establish not through just

this bill but future bills. It will

0:59:290:59:33

be an accurate cultural bill in the

comments. -- agricultural. Those

0:59:330:59:38

other things we are trying to get

plays. It is difficult to negotiate

0:59:380:59:44

with the UK Government. We are doing

our very best to be practical and to

0:59:440:59:49

be positive.

Do you expect to have

an agreement which will satisfy you

0:59:490:59:54

enough to recommend a legislative

consent motion?

At some stage? I

0:59:540:59:59

hope that will be the case and we're

working hard on that. I go back to

0:59:591:00:04

my first answer to you, there has to

be changes to the bill. That is

1:00:041:00:10

non-negotiable. What those changes

are and how they operate is still

1:00:101:00:13

under discussion. I am hopeful we

will get to the end of this process.

1:00:131:00:18

We are spending many hours on it.

But we will have to see those

1:00:181:00:22

changes to the bill.

Well we have

got you here, can I ask you about

1:00:221:00:26

something else, the children's

Commissioner has reported today to

1:00:261:00:31

be suggesting he might take legal

action against Universal Credit. The

1:00:311:00:35

argument is it infringes the human

rights of children. Would you back

1:00:351:00:41

any such action?

I think we would be

sympathetic to that action. The

1:00:411:00:49

approach of the UK Government on

Social Security and the wealthier is

1:00:491:00:54

appalling. -- welfare. I know that

as a constituency MP from my

1:00:541:01:00

caseload. In all those circumstances

anybody who are standing up against

1:01:001:01:04

that and arguing for a practical

resolution to an awful I a logical

1:01:041:01:09

problem brought by the Tories

deserves all the support he can get.

1:01:091:01:14

Presumably of the children's

Commissioner were to take legal

1:01:141:01:17

action, the cost would have to be

met by the Scottish Government?

I

1:01:171:01:21

think that is a discussion the

children's Commissioner has to have

1:01:211:01:25

with other ministers, it is not

within my portfolio. You asked me

1:01:251:01:29

what I thought of that, and I think

the UK Government's approach is

1:01:291:01:34

appalling. And I think this

children's Commissioner is saying

1:01:341:01:37

something that should be said. What

he has said is there has to be

1:01:371:01:41

changes. We have all been saying

that for a long time. That is what

1:01:411:01:45

the Chancellor announced in the

budget. They do not seem to be as

1:01:451:01:49

effective as they need to be.

We

will leave you there. Michael

1:01:491:01:52

Russell, thank you for joining us.

1:01:521:01:58

Now, also at that meeting

was the Scottish Secretary

1:01:581:02:00

David Mundell who joins me now.

1:02:001:02:02

Can you hear me? I can hear you. I

am hearing you loud and clear that

1:02:021:02:08

the moment.

We should remain people,

you are supporting Paisley's bid to

1:02:081:02:14

beat city of culture.

I am. This is

a big week for a Paisley, the final

1:02:141:02:22

presentation is made and on the BBC

show on Thursday night, we will hear

1:02:221:02:27

whether Paisley has been successful.

I do not know how much of what Mike

1:02:271:02:32

Russell said that, even if you

should agree amendments with the

1:02:321:02:36

Scottish Government to the Brexit

bill, which would take care of their

1:02:361:02:41

concerns, the SNP might vote against

the Brexit bill anyway?

The SNP

1:02:411:02:45

might vote against the bill, their

position as I understand it is to

1:02:451:02:51

remain in the EU. And if Scotland

left the EU it is to take Scotland

1:02:511:02:56

back into the EU. That is their

political position. What we are

1:02:561:03:01

engaged in in the discussions with

the Scottish Government is about

1:03:011:03:04

getting the devolution aspects of

the bill right. We have put in a

1:03:041:03:11

great deal of work on both sides

over the last few months and I think

1:03:111:03:15

that we are very close to getting

agreement on exactly what should

1:03:151:03:19

happen at each of the issues, the

111 issues on the list that was

1:03:191:03:24

published, how they should be dealt

with after we leave the EU. Where

1:03:241:03:28

some of those powers and

responsibilities will come to the

1:03:281:03:31

Scottish Government. Some will be

dealt with with informal

1:03:311:03:36

arrangements across the UK and there

will be a small number for which a

1:03:361:03:39

legislative mechanism will be

required. We are very close to

1:03:391:03:44

reaching agreement on exactly how

that distribution will take place.

1:03:441:03:49

And that will give context to the

bill. I think one of the

1:03:491:03:53

difficulties with the bill at the

moment is there is no context.

1:03:531:03:56

People do not understand what is

going to happen with the specific

1:03:561:04:00

powers and responsibilities and I

think if we can get that agreed and

1:04:001:04:04

have a context, then I think that is

the basis for moving forward.

There

1:04:041:04:07

was a suggestion, Jackson Carlaw and

the Scottish Conservatives would be

1:04:071:04:13

agreed with the Scottish Government

with amendments to the Brexit bill

1:04:131:04:18

which the Conservatives could then

support. Mike Russell says that has

1:04:181:04:24

not happened. Why has not happen

from your point of view?

What has

1:04:241:04:30

happened is ongoing discussions

about these issues, but part of it

1:04:301:04:33

is to do with the Commons process. I

know some people feel that that

1:04:331:04:38

process is the best suited to every

situation. But basically the bill

1:04:381:04:44

will be in the Commons this week for

a committee stage. What the

1:04:441:04:50

government does at that stage in

relation to a bill is listened to

1:04:501:04:54

all the arguments that are made in

relation to amendments, not

1:04:541:04:59

necessarily accepting amendments at

this stage, but then coming back in

1:04:591:05:04

the New Year at what is cold the

report stage of the bill, with

1:05:041:05:07

amendments that the government can

accept. And I would expect... I

1:05:071:05:13

absolutely anticipate that that will

be the process in relation to this

1:05:131:05:16

Bill. So the meaningful amendments

in relation to will move forward on

1:05:161:05:23

that stage.

1:05:231:05:30

that stage.

The other issue is

whether the Scottish Parliament will

1:05:301:05:34

pass a legislative consent motion.

Is it your hope that they will? Is

1:05:341:05:38

it your view that it matters one way

or the other?

Of course it matters.

1:05:381:05:43

I have absolutely committed from the

start of this process is that we

1:05:431:05:48

should have a legislative consent

motion from the Scottish Parliament,

1:05:481:05:52

that's why we have engaged fully

with them and before the committee.

1:05:521:05:57

The committee will produce an

interim report and a further report

1:05:571:06:01

on the Bill. What that committee

does in Parliament matters and it's

1:06:011:06:07

very important that we achieve the

consent. We understand the issues

1:06:071:06:11

and concerns that have already been

raised, but of course the point at

1:06:111:06:16

which the Bill will come before

Parliament for this consent is

1:06:161:06:20

likely to be around Easter when it's

completed its House of Commons

1:06:201:06:25

passage, when it completed almost

the House of Lords passage. That may

1:06:251:06:30

well be a Bill in a different format

than it is today. That the Bill in

1:06:301:06:34

which the Parliament will be giving

its consent.

If you've been having

1:06:341:06:40

all these meetings, not just the

Conservatives, Nicola Sturgeon and

1:06:401:06:44

John Swinney were in London, why

haven't you agreed anything?

We are

1:06:441:06:50

actually making a lot of progress

behind the scenes in terms of the

1:06:501:06:55

individual issues. I don't want this

to sound as a flimsy excuse, but it

1:06:551:06:59

is excluding the combo dated. -- it

is extremely complicated. We went

1:06:591:07:07

into the evolution to the Iraq

evolution without having tangled up

1:07:071:07:18

these issues. -- to the EU

devolution. The Scottish Parliament

1:07:181:07:25

are proceeding now in a constructive

fashion. Nicola Sturgeon did indeed

1:07:251:07:32

have a productive meeting with the

Prime Minister, so we are making

1:07:321:07:37

substantial progress. It is a

difficult issue, but I am confident

1:07:371:07:40

that together we are going to

resolve it.

We are running out of

1:07:401:07:46

time. Let me change the subject if I

can. We were interviewing Susan

1:07:461:07:50

Deacon earlier who is about to

become chair of the Scottish Police

1:07:501:07:57

Authority. I'm interested in what

you made of issues of confidence in

1:07:571:08:07

the Scottish police of the last few

months.

I welcome Susan Deacon. She

1:08:071:08:13

is well respected across the

political divide and can hopefully

1:08:131:08:16

bring a sense of direction to the

SPA. For constituents like mine in

1:08:161:08:22

Dumfries and Galloway who lost their

own individual police force, they

1:08:221:08:25

have not had confidence in the

accountability of Police Scotland

1:08:251:08:29

and they want their views and

reviews of people across Scotland to

1:08:291:08:34

be listened to in terms of how the

police force is run, but they also

1:08:341:08:39

want an effective police force that

is dealing with issues as the arise

1:08:391:08:43

in any place around Scotland. I hope

she can contribute to making that

1:08:431:08:48

happen.

We will have to leave it

there. Thank you very much.

1:08:481:08:53

Now it's time for a look back,

as well as forwards,

1:08:531:08:56

to the week ahead.

1:08:561:08:59

With me this week are the journalist

Isobel Lindsay and former

1:08:591:09:03

advisor to David Cameron,

Ramsay Jones.

1:09:031:09:09

Let's start with the police. There

is an issue of public confidence. We

1:09:091:09:15

can choose what words we use,

whether we caught a crisis or not,

1:09:151:09:20

there is an issue.

I am not sure

sure there is an issue of public

1:09:201:09:26

confidence, there is an ethnic issue

of media and political confidence.

1:09:261:09:29

Many of the B haters... Many of the

behaviours that appear to have

1:09:291:09:40

triggered this have probably been

going on in the individual police

1:09:401:09:43

forces before and didn't have the

same focus. I haven't heard much

1:09:431:09:49

discussion about the fact that it

takes so long in the police, not

1:09:491:09:52

just at the top, but down at the

bottom to deal with disciplinary

1:09:521:09:56

issues and it is hanging over

people, obviously very stressful,

1:09:561:10:01

but it's also a terrible waste of

resources and one of the things I

1:10:011:10:05

would like to see Susan Deacon take

on is why they haven't been doing

1:10:051:10:09

the things more quickly.

There is an

issue about what has been made

1:10:091:10:17

public. It is difficult to resolve.

These men and women who had been

1:10:171:10:22

suspended, we don't know... We do if

we read the newspapers, because it

1:10:221:10:28

has all been leaked, but officially

we are not being told what they are

1:10:281:10:32

being suspended for which leaves

them with their reputations being

1:10:321:10:37

left open to speculation. The other

side of things is what happened with

1:10:371:10:41

Ted Heath and Liam Britain, the

allegations are not made public and

1:10:411:10:46

then their reputations have been

trashed.

1:10:461:10:52

trashed. Where is the balance?

Those

individuals, whatever they have

1:10:521:10:55

done, they do have rights and their

employer has responsibility towards

1:10:551:11:00

them as well. As individuals, those

rights have to be protected. I am

1:11:001:11:06

sure most of the public watching

this will have very little idea of

1:11:061:11:09

what has been going on. I think you

are right here, there is an issue of

1:11:091:11:16

trust in policing in Scotland, but

that is largely within political

1:11:161:11:19

circles and within the bubble of

Scotland as opposed to within the

1:11:191:11:23

general public of Scotland. The

danger is that it breaks out beyond

1:11:231:11:28

that and that trust in confidence in

our police which is crucial to its

1:11:281:11:32

function starts to road. I think in

Susan Deacon now we have somebody

1:11:321:11:39

with the tenacity and intellect that

she will not be bounced into easy

1:11:391:11:45

answers to simple questions, but

will knuckle down and get on with

1:11:451:11:47

the job and do what's right.

Brexit,

what do you make of the latest?

1:11:471:11:56

what do you make of the latest?

What

are the latest developments? We can

1:11:561:11:58

choose! Well, this is... This is the

problem of Theresa May. It is our

1:11:581:12:13

problems to win the impact comes

through. I think from the Scottish

1:12:131:12:17

point of view in terms of which

Paris will get divorced, it's

1:12:171:12:21

important indeed that these key

powers get devolved back to Holyrood

1:12:211:12:28

and then there is a negotiation

about Corporation. If it's the other

1:12:281:12:35

way round, then all the bargaining

tools are at Westminster or

1:12:351:12:39

Whitehall. If Holyrood get

1:12:391:12:45

Whitehall. If Holyrood get the

powers, then there is a bargaining

1:12:451:12:49

tool.

I notice, located, but the

basic issue here that the assumption

1:12:491:12:56

is that powers stay with London and

then are devolved to Edinburgh,

1:12:561:13:00

whereas the hall assumption in

setting up the Scottish Parliament

1:13:001:13:03

is the opposite, that powers would

stay in Scotland unless they work

1:13:031:13:09

specifically reserved for London.

I

think both these extremes need to be

1:13:091:13:15

avoided. That is him yell at you.

Surely the Government, the British

1:13:151:13:24

Government, should have got it

right? -- that is the realities.

1:13:241:13:29

What is going on I think the degree

of consensus in the interviews today

1:13:291:13:36

showed that behind the scenes

progress is being made.

1:13:361:13:39

Accommodations will be reached.

There may remain a few, but I think

1:13:391:13:45

that clause of the Brexit divorced

Bill will remain redundant.

We will

1:13:451:13:50

have to leave it there.

1:13:501:13:52

That's all from the us this week.

1:13:521:13:53

I'll be back at the

same time next week.

1:13:531:13:56

Until then, goodbye.

1:13:561:14:01

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