04/02/2018 Sunday Politics Scotland


04/02/2018

Sarah Smith and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Guests include Brandon Lewis MP and Jonathan Ashworth MP.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning, everyone, and welcome

to the Sunday Politics.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

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And this is the programme that

will provide your essential briefing

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on everything that's moving

and shaking in the

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world of politics.

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Theresa May is back

after her trip to China.

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But there's plenty of fire and fury

from within her own party over

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Brexit and her ability to lead.

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The Conservative

chairman joins me live.

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Labour tells demonstrators only

it can save the NHS.

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So, do the party's health

spending plans add up?

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We'll talk to the Shadow

Health Secretary.

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Months on from the sexual harassment

and bullying scandal that

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engulfed Westminster,

we'll be asking what's happened

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to plans for Parliament

to clean up its act.

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And a violent scuffle at a speech

by one Tory MP has been widely

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condemned.

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But is it symptomatic

of a wider problem in politics?

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Coming up on Sunday

Politics Scotland:

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Brexit, bank closures

and the SNP's deputy leadership -

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we'll be talking to the party's

leader at Westminster,

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Ian Blackford.

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And, as one newspaper speculates

about a 'dream team' being urged

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to take over at Number 10,

we've got our own dream team

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of journalists - Tom Newton Dunn,

Julia Hartley-Brewer,

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and Steve Richards.

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And they've promised not

to plot against me...

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At least until the end of the show.

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So, the Prime Minister

may have been out

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of the country to drum up trade but,

even from 5,000 miles away, it

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must have been hard to ignore

the continuing unrest

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from some in her party,

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and repeated calls to be

clearer about Brexit.

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Theresa May was in China this week,

where she gave President Xi Jinping

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DVDs of Blue Planet as a reminder

of the dangers of plastic pollution.

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Back home, Conservative MPs

gave her some advice on how to lead

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the party and the Government.

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Some advice was offered

to Cabinet ministers

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getting restless on Brexit.

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The best way they can

support her is to take a vow

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of silence on the subject.

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But most was for the

Prime Minister herself.

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Some even aired their

thoughts in public.

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I do think the window is closed

because politics can be

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quite a brutal game.

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When is the Government

going to stand up against the hard

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Brexiteers who mainly

inhabit these benches?

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She does not actually

have a majority for her

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policy in her Cabinet.

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It was advice of a different kind

that hit the Government

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when BuzzFeed published leaked civil

service analysis suggesting that,

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under various off-the-shelf trading

models, the UK would be less well

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off in 15 years than

if we'd stayed in the EU.

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But Brexit Minister Steve Baker

wasn't worried about the forecasts.

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I think that they are always wrong,

and wrong for good reasons.

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The analysis was grist

to the mill for Brexit critics,

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but Theresa May probably didn't

expect one minister to pile in.

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Justice Department's Phillip Lee

said the leaked report couldn't just

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be dismissed and that,

if anywhere near correct,

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it raised a serious question

about current Brexit policy.

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But that's thinking 15 years ahead.

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One former Brexit Minister George

Bridges took aim at the Government

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and the House of Lords for still not

knowing what it wanted.

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All we hear day after day

are conflicting, confusing voices.

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Theresa May returned from China

saying she had secured £9 billion

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of business deals during the trip.

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Local media dubbed her Auntie May,

while International Trade Secretary

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Liam Fox said her middle name

is 'resilience', claiming foreign

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leaders were well aware

of Theresa May's strength.

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You look at the Prime Minister

in a different way than some of,

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let's say, the internal tea room

discussions in the UK do.

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While at home there was speculation

about her ability to lead,

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Auntie May herself was clear.

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I am not a quitter.

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She will be relieved the only

resignation she was offered this

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week was from a minister who'd shown

up late to Parliament.

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I'm thoroughly ashamed

at not being in my place,

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and therefore I shall be

offering my resignation

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to the Prime Minister.

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But with open warfare in her party,

calls to step up her game,

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and a crucial Cabinet meeting

on Brexit within days,

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Theresa May knows she needs to do

something special to ensure the next

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departure isn't hers.

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There is plenty to talk about with

my panel of political insiders. It

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feels like Theresa May's worst week

since last week that she began the

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show but talking about how difficult

it was with fights within the party.

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Is it even worse? It is about the

same. What is interesting, if I can

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put this in some context, I am

working in a project with the Prime

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Minister at the moment. Many Prime

Minister 's worry about being

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deposed but it is rare to happen.

From 1968 Harold Wilson was in

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trouble and he survived another

eight years. I'm not predicting...

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John Major survived until the

general election. This is a constant

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theme in British politics that Prime

Minister 's are rarely deposed at

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the moment I work on the assumption

she will be around for some time to

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come.

It is highly distracting

though. It cannot help with the

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issue of the Government or wrecks it

for that matter.

All of Theresa

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May's woes art of her own making. It

is about showing backbone and spine

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and having a Brexit policy and

sticking with it. I find it

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extraordinary we will have two

meetings with the Brexit War Cabinet

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on Wednesday and Thursday of this

week to decide the Brexit policy.

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She has been in office for a long

time it is a long time since the

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last election. It is a total

travesty of leadership that is going

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on. All of her problems are of her

own making. She could be doing with

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warring factions in her party, the

opposition and all the other

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threats, just to be a strong Prime

Minister. Making it clear to the

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likes of Philip Hammond, you are

doubtful that he should have been

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out a long time ago if she had the

will and strength to do so.

Is it

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not by being ambiguous about her

position on terror, and she has been

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able to remain as leader of the

Conservative Party?

Completely. I

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disagree with Julia and Steve that

there is a third way in all of this.

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I believe all her problems are not

of her own making. Brexit was not of

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her own making. She somehow had to

try to get this through parliament

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where she has no majority, where she

has eight Cabinet split and it is a

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huge problem. The only reason she is

there is because she has not made a

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big decision, she has not got off

the fence she is trying to keep the

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ship together and compromise. As was

said in the brilliant speech in the

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House of Lords, to govern is to

choose. Tony Blair said that this is

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the year of choice. The next six

months will be the six months of

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choices for Theresa May. User needs

to get the choices on Brexit, market

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control, sovereignty, access to

huge, great big decisions. She needs

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to get that past four different

hurdles was achieved to get the

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Cabinet on board among her own MPs

to stay alive and stay in charge

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having made those decisions. Then

she has too persuade the EU to buy

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whatever it is she will sell. I find

it very, very hard indeed to think

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she will get over all four hurdles

by the end of the year. Therefore I

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am afraid I cannot see her as

leading the Tory Party by the end of

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it.

I think it would be risky for

anyone to make any predictions. Can

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I point out that 2018 was not the

year of choice?

2016 was the year of

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choice. I care about what the

British electorate wants. The

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British electorate made their choice

in 2016. Theresa May did not

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increase her majority of the 85% of

people voted for two major parties

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in the Ukip and the other parties

supported Brexit. There is a mandate

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we need to get on and do the will of

the British people.

I completely

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agree with Tom about these hurdles.

They are almost impossible to get

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over. But that would apply to any

Prime Minister. So, you have to ask

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the question, what does it solve? In

the longer term, changing leader

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might give the more electoral

success, who knows? But it does not

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solve getting over those hurdles you

could have Boris Johnson saying,

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Britain can rule the waves. Those

hurdles will still be there.

But a

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Prime Minister who knew more

about... .Mac will come back to this

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later in the programme. In the

meantime we will move on.

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The Home Secretary, Amber Rudd,

has been speaking this morning

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to the Andrew Marr Show,

and she claimed the Cabinet

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isn't as divided over

Brexit as some claim.

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I have a surprise for the

Brexiteers, which is the committee

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that meets in order to help make

these decisions, is meeting, as you

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rightly say, twice this week,

is more united than they think.

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We meet in the committee,

we meet privately for discussions.

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I think we will arrive

at something which suits us all.

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There will be choices to be made

within them but we all want the same

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thing, which is to arrive at a deal

that works for the UK, that

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looks ahead.

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It's not just about protecting trade

behind us, it's about looking ahead

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to what kind of country

we want to be afterwards.

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We all have those

interests at heart.

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And I'm joined now by the chairman

of the Conservative Party,

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Brandon Lewis.

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Thank you for coming in. Amber Rudd

is saying the Cabinet is more united

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than people think. The parties that

he doesn't look that way from some

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of the things they have heard this

week. It is your job to get them on

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the same page in order to make that

happen, do you need to spell out a

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vision of what Brexit will look like

so they can get behind it?

It is

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like what Amber said. The Cabinet is

united behind the Prime Minister to

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make sure we get a good deal for the

European Union.

We are hearing lots

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of noises, complaining. They want to

know more about what the end state

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will be otherwise they will row

more.

Where I disagree is all MPs,

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certainly in the Conservative Party,

are united in seeing we get a good

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deal on leaving the EU for the

United Kingdom.

Bernard Jenkin

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saying we need to end confusion in

government. They are complaining

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about the present uncertainty.

Working out what is the right deal

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for the United Kingdom. In

negotiations we are having with a 27

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partners who want to continue to

trade with in the European Union is

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a very serious and, located piece of

work. We never said this was an easy

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piece of work and it is why there

are meetings of the subcommittee in

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the Cabinet going through the

details. We have the deal, the first

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stage of the deal, before Christmas.

We must look to the next stage which

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is agreeing the situation in the

period of translation after March

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2000 and 19. The ultimate deal that

we want, for people in the United

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Kingdom, after the transition period

as well.

We're all waiting with

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breath. Your backbenchers, whatever

side of the other in they are on the

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desperately want to know what the

end state will look like. After the

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Cabinet subcommittees meet later in

the week, we get more detail?

There

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are a couple of key issues. Within

Brexit we have been very clear.

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We're going to leave the European

Union, and the customs union. We

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want to make sure we can leave the

control of the Borders to the United

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Kingdom, the Government of the

United Kingdom. When I am talking to

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residents, across the country, they

also want to know that the Prime

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Minister is focused on issues that

matter to people every day. They're

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getting good education or housing

opportunities for people. The

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knowledge and confidence there will

be growth in the economy and

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security in the future as well.

It

is hard for the Dublin to get on

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with that whenever such a fight

within the party among backbenchers

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and senior influential people,

coming out and criticising the

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party, criticising the leadership.

Until there is more clarity on

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Brexit you will not be able

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Brexit you will not be able to get

on with the other policies because

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there is such a row in the party.

We

have a range of views, expertise and

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great talent to draw on all stop

people putting their ideas forward.

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Jacob is a really good example of

that. We saw what happened the other

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night with the hard left doing

everything they can to try to stop

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people having their safest we have

to ultimately make decisions about

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what we think is right for the

country in the longer run. -- having

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their say about what we have to

ultimately make decisions about.

Do

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you worry whether there is a hidden

agenda?

My experience has been the

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civil service in this country has

been superb. They work hard in the

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best interests of the Government. It

is their job to give impartial

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views. You think they do? That is

one reason why the world is envious

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of our civil service and rightly so.

Our job as ministers and the

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Government ultimately is to make

decisions on their behalf as you

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give consideration and ultimately we

are the ones who have to make the

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decisions.

Jacob Rees Mogg says they

are fiddling the figures and putting

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out information that is wrong.

As

Amber Rudd herself said, one of the

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most gracious and intelligent people

I know, on this, I slightly

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disagree. Perhaps they are doing. In

the leaked reports, which have not

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been approved and signed off by

ministers, it is about forecasts. It

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does not take into account what the

final negotiation will be nor the

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final decisions let alone the

domestic policy, which we are

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getting on with. Making sure that

people have opportunities and

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businesses can grow.

You mentioned

the scuffle at Jacob Rees Mogg was

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involved in earlier in the week,

some fairly ugly scenes which no one

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wants to see those that you have

plans to tackle intimidation in

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political life?

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We cannot allow the hard left to

create a situation where people feel

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so intimidated they are not prepared

to come forward and have their say.

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What we are seeing, and what we saw

in the report is actually people on

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the left giving horrendous abuse to

people across the political

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spectrum. I do agree, whether

someone's views are at the centre,

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right or left, they should have the

freedom and knowledge they can come

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forward and stand as a candidate. We

are going to change the law to make

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it against the law for people to

intimidate people. But also from the

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Conservative Party point of view,

internally we will have a respect

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pledge that all of our candidates

will sign up to. If they breach that

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cold, we will suspend them.

It's

often Labour politicians who are the

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target of a lot of abuse. It is

Diane Abbott who gets far and away

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the most abuse on Twitter. How can

you be sure these aren't members of

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your own party or your own

supporters who are abusing left-wing

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politicians?

We have to

differentiate. We should be able to

0:16:540:16:59

robust we have our debates. I have

debated with Diane Abbott over her

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inability to get her numbers right

on police numbers. We have seen the

0:17:030:17:11

Shadow Chancellor... However it is

from, it is not acceptable. I will

0:17:110:17:20

deal with that. We need to have

good, clear, freedom of speech,

0:17:200:17:25

robust debate with respect and I

respect the Labour Party to do the

0:17:250:17:29

right thing and condemn what we saw

the other night, and see the

0:17:290:17:35

leadership do the right thing.

There's no evidence it had anything

0:17:350:17:38

to do the Labour Party.

What we do

know is when you have the Shadow

0:17:380:17:44

Chancellor of the country

encouraging abuse of people

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individually...

He denies that. He

says he actually argues against that

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and says he condemned it.

What

anybody can see, anybody can look up

0:17:550:18:04

what John McDonnell said. We have

not seen anyone in the senior

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echelons of the Labour Party do

anything to condemn this kind of

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action or come out and say they will

sign up to a respect pledge but we

0:18:110:18:17

will do that.

Getting back to the

Tory party, it is not just the

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ructions that have erupted this

week, there has been a lot of

0:18:210:18:26

criticism of Theresa May's

leadership, Heidi Allen saying it

0:18:260:18:29

was time to get a grip and lead,

another MP said he had a profound

0:18:290:18:34

fear of Jeremy Corbyn becoming

leader if they don't get their act

0:18:340:18:43

together. It is difficult to manage

a febrile situation in which a large

0:18:430:18:47

number of your MPs don't seem to

want Theresa May to lead the party

0:18:470:18:52

into the next election.

I know Heidi

and Johnnie very well. I have heard

0:18:520:19:01

him be very clear that Theresa May

is the right person to lead the

0:19:010:19:04

country and actually Theresa May as

someone who cares passionately about

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getting fairness in society,

opportunity for people...

Why do

0:19:110:19:15

your own MPs not appear to

understand that?

We should all be

0:19:150:19:19

uniting behind our leader.

Funnily

enough that is what David Lidington

0:19:190:19:27

said on the Andrew Marr Show last

week when he said it was time to

0:19:270:19:30

come together in a spirit of mutual

respect. Will they listen to you

0:19:300:19:35

this week, stop the sniping from the

sidelines?

I have been speaking to

0:19:350:19:40

colleagues and myself, what I get

consistently is they want us to be

0:19:400:19:44

focused on the job we should be

doing. The job I think most of your

0:19:440:19:51

viewers would want us to get on with

is delivering a good Brexit but also

0:19:510:19:56

we have a domestic agenda to

deliver, like supporting the NHS,

0:19:560:20:00

making sure businesses can grow,

people keeping more money in their

0:20:000:20:05

pocket and a country that is growing

and optimistic about its future

0:20:050:20:10

opportunities.

One Conservative

council got itself in trouble this

0:20:100:20:13

week, they run out of money in

Northamptonshire. The leader of the

0:20:130:20:17

council said they had been warning

the Government from about 2014 that

0:20:170:20:22

they couldn't cope with the level of

cuts they were facing. Did you not

0:20:220:20:28

listen to her?

0:20:280:20:35

listen to her?

Across local

government councils hopping -- ... I

0:20:350:20:44

do think there are more efficiencies

that can be found.

In

0:20:440:20:51

Northamptonshire they say they have

actually run out of money.

District

0:20:510:20:55

authorities can look at how they can

do more, about sharing services,

0:20:550:20:59

sharing senior management and saving

substantial amounts of money. I

0:20:590:21:04

would encourage those local

authorities to look at that

0:21:040:21:07

opportunity because it means they

can put more of their time and

0:21:070:21:10

effort and the money they do have is

focusing on giving good first-class

0:21:100:21:15

services.

You are of course going to

allow them to raise council tax, and

0:21:150:21:20

we have had warnings from other Tory

run councils as well saying they are

0:21:200:21:24

running out of money. It is a bit

difficult though isn't it when you

0:21:240:21:29

have prided yourself on low taxes

that many people are likely to see

0:21:290:21:34

pretty big rises in their council

tax.

We have to make difficult

0:21:340:21:41

decisions due to the economic legacy

we inherited. Council tax roughly

0:21:410:21:48

doubled under Labour, I was a

council leader where the party had

0:21:480:21:51

run my counsel at the time with

increases of 16% year-on-year. We

0:21:510:21:56

have brought that back down so we

had the council tax freeze, and I

0:21:560:22:04

would encourage council leaders to

look at how they spend their money.

0:22:040:22:07

But council taxes will be going up,

you reckon?

They will be using the

0:22:070:22:14

ability they have to raise it a few

percent to give good local services.

0:22:140:22:20

People are looking at how efficient

they are, how they are focused on

0:22:200:22:23

their local needs to get good

Conservative governments in May this

0:22:230:22:27

year.

Thank you.

0:22:270:22:29

Yesterday, thousands of people

marched on the rainy

0:22:290:22:31

streets of London to protest

against what organisers described

0:22:310:22:33

as a crisis in NHS funding.

0:22:330:22:34

The Shadow Health Secretary,

Jonathan Ashworth,

0:22:340:22:36

was there and told

the crowds that under Labour

0:22:360:22:38

there would be more money

for the NHS, higher pay for staff,

0:22:380:22:41

and privatisation would end.

0:22:410:22:44

No more PFI hospitals.

0:22:440:22:48

No more Carillion outsourcing,

leaving hospitals dirty and unclean,

0:22:480:22:50

affecting patient safety.

0:22:500:22:55

And we're putting Virgin Care,

and organisations like

0:22:580:23:00

that, on notice today.

0:23:000:23:01

No more suing of the NHS,

no more privatisation.

0:23:010:23:03

Privatisation comes to the end

with a Labour government,

0:23:030:23:05

as we get rid of that Lansley Act

and restore, and indeed reinstate,

0:23:050:23:08

a public National Health Service.

0:23:080:23:13

And Jonathan Ashworth is back

in his constituency in Leicester.

0:23:220:23:24

He joins me from there now.

0:23:240:23:29

Good morning. On that March you were

demanding the NHS get the funding it

0:23:290:23:37

needs but we have been looking back

at Labour's manifesto and you

0:23:370:23:41

weren't really promising very much

more money for the NHS than the Tory

0:23:410:23:45

government says it will deliver.

We

would be putting in an extra £5

0:23:450:23:52

billion into the NHS this year. You

will recall that Simon Stevens, the

0:23:520:23:57

head of the NHS, was asking for an

extra four billion this year. They

0:23:570:24:01

didn't get that in the November

budget but we would put an extra £5

0:24:010:24:06

billion into the NHS this year.

You

were talking about an increase of 2%

0:24:060:24:12

per year, more than this Government

is promising which is 1.2% this

0:24:120:24:17

year, but historically health

spending usually goes up by about 4%

0:24:170:24:23

per year and you were promising half

of that.

Yes, over 62 years it went

0:24:230:24:28

up by 4% but we would be increasing

expenditure quite substantially in

0:24:280:24:32

the NHS in the early years of the

Parliament.

But to an average of 2%

0:24:320:24:38

a year over the Government?

Yes but

we also said we would establish an

0:24:380:24:42

OBR for the health service to advise

government on long-term spending

0:24:420:24:46

needs of the NHS so we would have an

independent body giving us an

0:24:460:24:51

accurate assessment of the

demographic changes, the staffing

0:24:510:24:55

needs of the NHS, which would inform

future spending decisions. In the

0:24:550:25:00

early years of the parliament we

would be spending substantially more

0:25:000:25:04

on the NHS, not just for hospitals

which are overcrowded because we

0:25:040:25:09

have lost 14,500 beds since 2010 but

also more investment in community

0:25:090:25:14

health service.

It's very difficult

for you to give statistics about how

0:25:140:25:20

much trouble the NHS is in when you

were promising a very modest

0:25:200:25:23

increase in spending of 2%. Under

the last Labour government, health

0:25:230:25:28

spending rose by 6% per year, under

Margaret Thatcher's government it

0:25:280:25:33

went up by 3% a year. Your manifesto

pledge was to give the NHS on

0:25:330:25:40

average less money than Margaret

Thatcher did.

But we would be

0:25:400:25:44

allocating £5 billion for the NHS.

You say it is a modest increase, if

0:25:440:25:50

I could say it is substantially more

than this Government is putting into

0:25:500:25:54

the NHS and when you have Simon

Stevens saying the NHS needs four

0:25:540:26:00

billion this year, we were promising

more than that so you say it is

0:26:000:26:03

modest but I suggest it is a

significant level of investment

0:26:030:26:06

which would allow us to get waiting

lists down. They could reach 5

0:26:060:26:12

million under the Government. It

would allow us to deal with

0:26:120:26:16

overcrowded hospitals and allow us

to invest in

0:26:160:26:24

to invest in community health

services, stop the cuts to child and

0:26:250:26:28

adolescent mental health services,

allow us to recruit so we have the

0:26:280:26:30

nurses we need.

That is what you can

buy for £5 billion you say, is

0:26:300:26:41

scrapping tuition fees are better

use of the money?

I'm always going

0:26:410:26:46

to argue for more money for the NHS,

as someone who aspires to be the

0:26:460:26:54

Health Secretary.

And therefore

argue against scrapping tuition

0:26:540:26:58

fees?

The tuition fee pledge was a

promise made by Jeremy Corbyn and

0:26:580:27:07

John McDonnell when Jeremy Corbyn

run for the leadership of the Labour

0:27:070:27:10

Party and proved to be very popular

electorally as a pledge so I can see

0:27:100:27:15

why the Labour Party will be

sticking with that, but I'm always

0:27:150:27:19

going to be making the case for more

money for the NHS. We have seen £6

0:27:190:27:30

billion of cuts and

0:27:300:27:36

billion of cuts and other...

It is

not clear the amount of money

0:27:360:27:40

offered by Labour will be sufficient

to offer their aspirations in social

0:27:400:27:44

care.

I would say it would be.

Across the Parliament we would put

0:27:440:27:53

an extra £8 billion but we know we

have to look at better ways of

0:27:530:27:56

integrating health and social care.

The NHS was created in 1948, social

0:27:560:28:04

care was created as a sister service

but they have never worked together

0:28:040:28:07

as closely as they should. We are

older, with various different

0:28:070:28:13

conditions, we know the social care

system and the NHS will have to work

0:28:130:28:18

more closely together so we would

look at integrating properly health

0:28:180:28:21

and social care but that is a medium

to long-term plan, not something a

0:28:210:28:27

politician can deliver overnight.

It

was made clear at the rally you work

0:28:270:28:32

at yesterday Labour politicians

pledging no more outsourcing in the

0:28:320:28:35

NHS, what does that actually mean?

No more private companies of any

0:28:350:28:40

kind involved in healthcare at all?

What we would want to bring an end

0:28:400:28:45

to is the way in which, because of

the health and social care act from

0:28:450:28:52

for years ago, it means community

health contracts have to always be

0:28:520:28:55

put out to tender. Millions is

wasted, some even say billions

0:28:550:29:02

wasted, on the constant tendering of

contracts. We have just seen a

0:29:020:29:06

children's health contracts go to

virgin care in Lancashire. When

0:29:060:29:10

virgin care didn't win a contract in

Surrey, they forced the NHS to

0:29:100:29:14

settle with them out of court.

Macmillan Cancer Support have one in

0:29:140:29:20

Staffordshire, the Red Cross, St

John's ambulance, they all have

0:29:200:29:24

contracts provided for under the

very act you say you want to repeal.

0:29:240:29:28

You don't want these people involved

in health care delivery?

Macmillan

0:29:280:29:39

nurses have had a role since the

1970s. They complement what the NHS

0:29:390:29:44

offers so we are not talking about

ending the voluntary sector role.

0:29:440:29:48

This isn't just voluntary services.

No, but we are talking about private

0:29:480:29:54

firms where a full contract for

service delivery, say a children's

0:29:540:29:58

health service, is handed over to

virgin, that means the staff are

0:29:580:30:04

handed over, the only way virgin or

whatever that private sector company

0:30:040:30:08

is can make a profit is by cutting

down on terms and conditions. It

0:30:080:30:13

means the staff are often down

branded, knocked down a level in

0:30:130:30:18

terms of their pay, and we don't

believe that delivers the quality of

0:30:180:30:22

care children deserve and that's

what we want to end.

0:30:220:30:32

You talk about the long waiting

lists. Under the last Labour

0:30:360:30:40

government that they came in at a

time in the NHS was and a lot of

0:30:400:30:44

pressure and delivery used private

sector companies to work through the

0:30:440:30:47

backlog of people who were waiting

for operations in order to get the

0:30:470:30:51

waiting lists down quickly. Do you

not think that the NHS as an estate

0:30:510:30:55

now where you may be forced to

consider that?

The NHS has always

0:30:550:31:06

got extra capacity from private

service providers in that

0:31:060:31:09

circumstance. The Labour government

was not handing over the delivery

0:31:090:31:13

lock, stock and barrel for the whole

sort of health contract.

That's the

0:31:130:31:18

difference. But you might still buy

in services. When you say

0:31:180:31:23

outsourcing is finished, it doesn't

mean the whole involvement of

0:31:230:31:31

private companies is finished?

The

NHS will not build its own

0:31:310:31:35

ambulances. We will still buy from

the private sector. Without capacity

0:31:350:31:40

in the NHS we will buy in from the

private sector. If you want to get

0:31:400:31:45

the rescheduled by Easter, if you

wanted to do that, the anyway the

0:31:450:31:48

NHS could do that is by buying in

from the private sector. There is a

0:31:480:31:54

difference between spot buying in

the private sector and handing out a

0:31:540:31:57

complete contract. Take a really in

four example with the cleaning

0:31:570:32:02

contract.

I will have to leave you

on and ask you about Haringey

0:32:020:32:06

Council before we go. Clare Cockburn

was on the Andrew Marr show earlier

0:32:060:32:12

and she has been giving interviews,

talking about bullying within the

0:32:120:32:20

Labour Party and at council

meetings. -- Kober thought she said

0:32:200:32:25

she could not complain to the NEC

because she thought that was in

0:32:250:32:30

itself a problem. That is deeply

worrying, isn't it?

I don't know all

0:32:300:32:36

the ins and outs I have seen what is

in the newspapers but I used to be a

0:32:360:32:42

the ins and outs I have seen what is

member of the National Executive

0:32:420:32:43

committee until 18 months ago. Clare

Kober, if there were specific

0:32:430:32:51

complaints, they do need to go to

the NEC and the NEC would look at

0:32:510:32:55

that. Various committees would look

at that very seriously.

You reached

0:32:550:33:00

a point when a senior member of the

party does not trust the NEC to sort

0:33:000:33:04

this out because she thinks they are

part of the problem and not the

0:33:040:33:07

answer.

I would say that the NEC, in

my experience, would look at these

0:33:070:33:13

things. The NEC got involved in

mediation talks. I am not a member

0:33:130:33:20

of it anymore but what I understand

is a substantial number of Labour

0:33:200:33:23

councillors in Haringey asked the

NEC to intervene I don't know the

0:33:230:33:29

ins and outs but it is clear there

are two sides of the story. On

0:33:290:33:33

specific allegations where there was

a meeting in Haringey where there

0:33:330:33:38

was anti-Semitic chanting in things

like that, if those people are

0:33:380:33:42

Labour Party members were they need

to be reported. If people are being

0:33:420:33:46

anti-Semitic they will be thrown out

of the Labour Party, simple as that.

0:33:460:33:49

Thank you.

0:33:490:33:51

Allegations of sexual harassment

and bullying rocked Westminster

0:33:510:33:53

when they emerged last autumn.

0:33:530:33:54

By the end of the year,

two Cabinet ministers had resigned

0:33:540:33:57

and several MPs from different

parties had been suspended

0:33:570:33:59

pending investigations.

0:33:590:34:02

The Government promised action,

and announced a cross-party working

0:34:020:34:04

group to decide what it should be.

0:34:040:34:06

But, so far, it hasn't

recommended anything.

0:34:060:34:08

Ellie Price has been finding

out what's going on.

0:34:080:34:10

And, just a warning, her report

includes some flash photography.

0:34:100:34:15

It wasn't parliament's finest hour.

0:34:150:34:18

Revelations of shady goings-on,

of sexual harassment in the Palace's

0:34:180:34:21

bars and back rooms,

of bullying in its offices.

0:34:210:34:25

Of course, the vast majority of MPs

and their staff were not implicated.

0:34:250:34:29

But it was enough that

all the party leaders agreed

0:34:290:34:32

something needed to be done.

0:34:320:34:35

We should not rest until everyone

working in Parliament can feel safe,

0:34:350:34:38

valued and respected.

0:34:380:34:42

We have a chance now to get

this right, for everyone

0:34:420:34:45

on the parliamentary estate.

0:34:450:34:46

Political leaders agreed

to set up a cross-party

0:34:460:34:48

working group in November.

0:34:480:34:51

MPs, peers, and other interested

groups have been working

0:34:510:34:53

on the proposals ever since.

0:34:530:34:56

The Leader of the House had said

she wanted the recommendations to be

0:34:560:34:59

voted on by Parliament

and implemented by

0:34:590:35:01

the end of January.

0:35:010:35:04

But here we are at the beginning

of February and still the report

0:35:040:35:07

hasn't been published.

0:35:070:35:09

Sources close to the working group

tell me it was held up

0:35:090:35:12

before Christmas and then

its scope was widened.

0:35:120:35:15

It was then due to be released

on Thursday but I'm told it

0:35:150:35:18

still needs final sign off

from the party leaders.

0:35:180:35:23

I've been told there is now broad

consensus among members on the group

0:35:230:35:26

that its recommendations

are suitably robust.

0:35:260:35:29

Sources close to the talks told me

there's recommendations are likely

0:35:290:35:32

to include a new independent

grievance procedure for staff,

0:35:320:35:35

consent lessons for MPs,

starting after the next general

0:35:350:35:38

election, a new code of conduct,

and the one most likely

0:35:380:35:42

to grab the headlines,

tougher sanctions, including making

0:35:420:35:46

easier the process to recall -

and potentially fire

0:35:460:35:49

- an MP.

0:35:490:35:52

The current situation is one

where I would face harsher sanctions

0:35:520:35:55

and penalties for being rude

about another MP on the floor

0:35:550:35:59

of the House of Commons

than I would if I were bullying

0:35:590:36:00

or harassing a member of staff.

0:36:000:36:03

I don't think that is a reasonable,

or tenable, situation,

0:36:030:36:03

and I think we need to give staff,

and the general public we work for,

0:36:050:36:08

the confidence that Parliament

is not just abiding by the law

0:36:080:36:11

on employment rights

and workplace rights

0:36:110:36:16

but actually setting a standard.

0:36:160:36:18

A representative from Unite is also

on the working party.

0:36:180:36:22

The union says its members,

who work in Parliament,

0:36:220:36:24

have lost faith in the system.

0:36:240:36:28

Our members don't have confidence

at the moment that there's

0:36:280:36:30

going to be enough change

in Parliament to make

0:36:300:36:32

a difference to the bullying

and harassment culture.

0:36:320:36:35

There needs to be positive

engagement with staff and encourage

0:36:350:36:38

them, and give them confidence that,

if they make a complaint over

0:36:380:36:43

bullying and harassment, that there

will be proper investigation.

0:36:430:36:48

And the working group

has its work cut out.

0:36:480:36:50

As HR experts consulted

during the process point out,

0:36:500:36:54

reforming the existing employment

rules in Parliament

0:36:540:36:57

is not straightforward.

0:36:570:37:01

One of the big challenges,

you've got 650 MPs, who are all

0:37:010:37:04

running their own offices and staff.

0:37:040:37:08

So, effectively, you've got 650

small firms in effect.

0:37:080:37:11

And the extent to which they have

had previous experience in managing

0:37:110:37:15

people, and running businesses,

is probably limited

0:37:150:37:19

in many instances.

0:37:190:37:21

So, that's part of the problem.

0:37:210:37:24

But any overhaul of the system

is unnecessary, says this MP

0:37:240:37:26

who has been in Parliament

for nearly 35 years.

0:37:260:37:30

I think, by and large,

the rules work as they are.

0:37:300:37:33

And, if courtesy and common sense

are applied, there is no need

0:37:330:37:36

for any change at all.

0:37:360:37:39

Yeah, there are bad

apples in the barrel.

0:37:390:37:41

But those bad apples tend to get

weeded out pretty fast.

0:37:410:37:45

And I think we could create,

if we're not careful,

0:37:450:37:49

a whistle-blowers charter,

a witch hunters charter.

0:37:490:37:55

Very difficult for a male of any age

to defend against an allegation.

0:37:550:38:01

I'm told the report will be

published next week,

0:38:010:38:05

possibly on Tuesday,

and MPs will then debate

0:38:050:38:07

it in the Commons.

0:38:070:38:10

But it may not satisfy everyone that

it's exactly what's required to put

0:38:100:38:14

this House in order.

0:38:140:38:22

It's coming up to 11:40am.

0:38:220:38:22

You're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:38:230:38:25

Coming up on the programme,

we'll be talking about the violent

0:38:250:38:28

scenes after protestors interrupted

a speech by the Conservative

0:38:280:38:30

Good morning, and welcome

to Sunday Politics Scotland.

0:38:300:38:32

SNP Westminster leader

Ian Blackford says he's held

0:38:320:38:35

productive talks with RBS,

which plans to close 62

0:38:350:38:38

branches across Scotland.

0:38:380:38:41

We'll be asking him

exactly what that means.

0:38:410:38:44

Also, we'll be examining what's

changed in 100 years

0:38:440:38:47

since women first got the vote.

0:38:470:38:49

And what can be done to stem

the tide of depopulation

0:38:490:38:52

in Scotland's countryside?

0:38:520:39:01

There is a clear opportunity to

resettle and repopulate areas where

0:39:010:39:04

there has been a declining

populations.

0:39:040:39:09

The SNP's Westminster leader

Ian Blackford has said he has had

0:39:090:39:11

"productive" talks with RBS

officials over its plans to close

0:39:110:39:14

dozens of bank branches in Scotland.

0:39:140:39:16

And he's repeatedly raised the issue

at Prime Minister's Questions.

0:39:160:39:22

Well, with yesterday's announcement

that the party's Deputy leader

0:39:220:39:25

Angus Robertson is stepping down,

does Ian Blackford have ambitions

0:39:250:39:27

to take on that role?

0:39:270:39:28

He joins us now from his

constituency on Skye.

0:39:280:39:35

There are reports in some newspapers

this morning that RGS have as a

0:39:350:39:39

matter of fact decided to reverse

some of these closures. Is that too,

0:39:390:39:43

to your knowledge?

Faster, good

morning. I am looking back to Skye.

0:39:430:39:53

I have had a number of conversations

and meetings with the Royal Bank of

0:39:530:40:00

Scotland over the course of the last

few weeks, and what I have tried to

0:40:000:40:03

put across, and other colleagues

have tried to put across, as it is a

0:40:030:40:07

very real threat to a number of

communities when we're talking about

0:40:070:40:11

closing the last bank in town. I

have been encouraged by the. They

0:40:110:40:16

are ongoing, but I hope we are close

to a resolution that will give some

0:40:160:40:20

hope to a number of communities that

the Royal Bank of Scotland branches

0:40:200:40:25

can remain open, but these talks

have two weaker conclusion over the

0:40:250:40:28

course of the coming days.

So they

have not said to you that do well as

0:40:280:40:33

a matter of fact stop the closure of

some branches?

Well, we have had

0:40:330:40:40

very positive engagement. I know

that others have been involved as

0:40:400:40:43

well, sort the Scottish select

committee have been involved, Andrea

0:40:430:40:47

Radrizzani is that in printable, we

recognise that something has to be

0:40:470:40:51

done in order to keep a number of

bank branches open. I want to wait

0:40:510:40:55

until we are in a position that a

formal and anything can be made, but

0:40:550:41:00

there has been very constructive

dialogue over the course of the last

0:41:000:41:04

few months. It has been disappointed

when I have raised this matter with

0:41:040:41:07

the Prime Minister, as I have done,

and I pointed out that we own the

0:41:070:41:11

Royal Bank of Scotland, the UK state

has a majority stake, and the

0:41:110:41:15

Government did intervene in the past

to assist in the removal of the

0:41:150:41:19

Chief Executive Officer. Said that

the Government should be intervening

0:41:190:41:22

in this case to make sure we protect

communities and businesses that

0:41:220:41:26

rely...

I know you want to make a

formal and management, but is it

0:41:260:41:32

your expectation that at least some

of these branches will remain open?

0:41:320:41:36

I want to respect the fact that

talks are ongoing, and it will

0:41:360:41:40

happen in a coordinated manner, but

I am pleased to say that good

0:41:400:41:43

progress has been made and I expect

a announcement.

Angus Robertson

0:41:430:41:51

stepping down, would you like to be

leader?

I would like to thank angers

0:41:510:41:55

for the contribution he has made as

God is public life. -- do it

0:41:550:42:02

Scottish public life. He is somebody

who is going to be stored in this.

0:42:020:42:06

He has made a fantastic

contribution. C the dust settle on

0:42:060:42:09

theirs, and in the short term, I

will concentrate on my role as SNP

0:42:090:42:15

leader in Westminster.

Why not just

say you are going to stand?

I think

0:42:150:42:20

that would be precious metal at this

moment. Angus has just stood down.

0:42:200:42:26

-- best respectful at this moment.

It is not. He may be as completely

0:42:260:42:35

at marvellous as you say he is, I do

not think Angus Robertson would find

0:42:350:42:39

it best respectful as you said you

wanted to stand.

I understand you

0:42:390:42:44

are asking the question, garden, but

I will not be committing to that

0:42:440:42:49

today, and this week I will be

getting back to my job in

0:42:490:42:51

Westminster leading the SNP group.

Of course, I will affect those

0:42:510:42:57

colleagues over the coming days, but

I am certainly content with my role

0:42:570:43:02

at the moment.

There is a new group

called the grass roots coordinating

0:43:020:43:12

group, which are partly some SNP MPs

are involved in this.

Are you

0:43:120:43:15

backing it? I will back anything

that tells bridge across the case

0:43:150:43:22

that there is a real economic said

to the people of Scotland every

0:43:220:43:25

alleged that the single market...

Are you going to take part in this

0:43:250:43:29

group?

Other colleagues will take

part in their scope. As party

0:43:290:43:34

leader, but I have done as I have

set up a cross-party group with the

0:43:340:43:38

leaders of the Liberal Democrats,

the Greens and cloakroom, and we are

0:43:380:43:42

working to take forward the case to

the main anything discussed union. I

0:43:420:43:49

believe there is a majority in the

House of Commons who wants that.

0:43:490:43:54

What you will find is that things

will be happening across a number of

0:43:540:43:57

levels. It is important that people

engage in this game in the threat.

0:43:570:44:03

Given this group is setup in order

campaign for another vote on Brexit,

0:44:030:44:08

does that mean the SNP is now in

favour of another vote on Brexit?

0:44:080:44:12

No. What we are doing...

What do you

mean, no, because you have just said

0:44:120:44:20

people from the SNP will be taking

part?

I'm quite happy to answer the

0:44:200:44:25

question if you let me try to do

that. We trying to protect

0:44:250:44:30

Scotland's position in the single

market and Customs union. But the

0:44:300:44:34

First Minister has said, and I have

said previously, we are looking at

0:44:340:44:37

whether or not they will be a set of

circumstances where there could be a

0:44:370:44:42

second thought. That is not a

preferred position today. A primary

0:44:420:44:46

position is that we need to protect

the economic future of Scotland.

The

0:44:460:44:52

whole point of the group is to

campaign for another vote. I think

0:44:520:44:56

you said you would encourage SNP MPs

to get involved, get that is not

0:44:560:45:03

your position.

I think what you are

asking me, it's not we will work

0:45:030:45:08

with Chuka Umunna and others...

No,

I said by that you would join his

0:45:080:45:15

new group. You said you would

encourage SNP MPs to take part.

I

0:45:150:45:23

would encourage SNP MPs to be

involved in a process which respects

0:45:230:45:27

Scotland's position and interest,

which is remaining anything at and

0:45:270:45:30

Customs union. We will block across

the party to do that. We're not in a

0:45:300:45:36

position that we will support a

second referendum. That has been our

0:45:360:45:41

possession. I have already expend

that we believe that what we have

0:45:410:45:44

got to do is protect our interests

in the single market and Customs

0:45:440:45:48

union. What have been said is that

the legal beanie question of whether

0:45:480:45:52

or not in the future we will look at

the issue of a second referendum,

0:45:520:45:56

but that is not by BR at today. I

have long argued that there is a

0:45:560:46:01

majority in the House of Commons for

this, and that is what we are

0:46:010:46:04

licking at that.

I'm struggling to

make sense of this. Nicola Sturgeon

0:46:040:46:08

said she may call a second

independence referendum because

0:46:080:46:11

Scotland did not vote to leave the

European Union. Yet she will not

0:46:110:46:16

commit to a campaign for a second

European referendum, which is being

0:46:160:46:23

supported by people within the

Conservative Party, the Labour Party

0:46:230:46:27

and officially by the Liberal

Democrats.

I don't quite see the

0:46:270:46:29

logic. The Scottish Government as

just published Scotland's plays in

0:46:290:46:37

Europe and that is about the

economic sector Scotland. What we

0:46:370:46:40

have been doing at Westminster is

giving a voice to that campaign to

0:46:400:46:44

make sure that they can protect the

economic interests of this country,

0:46:440:46:48

staying in the single market and

Customs union. We are going through

0:46:480:46:51

the best all process at the moment.

We're pitting down amendments to

0:46:510:46:56

that legislation. We will stick with

that position.

Surely better than

0:46:560:47:03

that would be staying in the

European Union?

We are trying to

0:47:030:47:09

make sure that we are respecting the

possession that take place in the

0:47:090:47:13

United Kingdom when the vote

happened in 2016, when we accepted

0:47:130:47:17

that that is taking place as things

stand, but we do not accept that

0:47:170:47:21

Scotland is tagged out of the single

market and Customs union.

You're

0:47:210:47:25

sounding like Jeremy Corbyn now.

I

think that is rather disrespectful,

0:47:250:47:30

if you don't mind me saying. What

was said to Jeremy Corbyn, come and

0:47:300:47:40

join us and let's make sure that we

can protect living standards of

0:47:400:47:46

everyone in Scotland and the United

Kingdom. It is a vastly different

0:47:460:47:50

position to Jeremy Corbyn, who has

failed to engage in this progress.

0:47:500:47:57

We're working across parties.

We

will have to leave it there. I

0:47:570:48:00

ensure you will enjoy the less of

you lovely day in the beautiful area

0:48:000:48:06

that surround you.

0:48:060:48:07

Watching that in our Aberdeen studio

is the Conservative MP Colin Clark.

0:48:070:48:14

The Scottish Tories have missed a

trick on RBS. It looks like RBS is

0:48:140:48:21

going to cave in and say they will

not close some of these branches.

I

0:48:210:48:26

think it is quite remarkable that

Ian Blackford is undermining the

0:48:260:48:32

work that Pete Wishart, the chair of

Scottish affairs committee that have

0:48:320:48:34

been taking the lead on this along

with the vice-chair, and it would

0:48:340:48:41

appear that Ian Blackford is trying

to take the headlines for this,

0:48:410:48:43

while that committee has taken the

lead. It is a bit of a reflection on

0:48:430:48:48

Ian Blackford's security of his

leadership.

Your committee has been

0:48:480:48:52

in talks with RBS, is that what

you're saying?

I am not on that

0:48:520:48:56

committee. Pete Wishart is the

German and Paul Lambert is the

0:48:560:49:01

vice-chair, and that is an all-party

committee, and they have been

0:49:010:49:09

closely working with RBS and

speaking to them. It is very

0:49:090:49:13

disappointing that that committee

were trying to pull together the

0:49:130:49:16

agreement... That will be announced,

but Ian Blackford seems to be

0:49:160:49:21

undermining the work the committee

has done by trying to get the

0:49:210:49:24

headline on it. I would love to be a

fly on the wall tomorrow in

0:49:240:49:29

Westminster when they speak to each

other.

0:49:290:49:34

You said people should vote with

their feet if they don't like the

0:49:340:49:39

RBS bank closures. What should

people do in towns where there is no

0:49:390:49:43

other bank?

I'm not going to

prejudge what RBS have decided to do

0:49:430:49:51

but there has been a lot of pressure

put on them by myself and other

0:49:510:49:56

colleagues but this is a commercial

bank and the most important thing is

0:49:560:50:00

that people realise there are other

banks, they can show solidarity with

0:50:000:50:06

cumulative who are losing bags. I'm

losing three in the constituency of

0:50:060:50:11

Gordon. In each of those towns there

are other options. I think RBS are

0:50:110:50:18

reviewing their policy.

It sounds

like you are trying to say that you

0:50:180:50:24

no RBS will agree not to close

branches where there is no other

0:50:240:50:28

bank.

Unlike Ian Blackford I will

let the Scottish Affairs Committee

0:50:280:50:34

led by Pete Wishart, I will let them

come forward with a statement.

Would

0:50:340:50:42

you like RBS to announce that at a

minimum they will not close branches

0:50:420:50:47

in areas with no other bank?

I

would, but RBS have given up her

0:50:470:50:54

service by not discussing what they

will do. They don't need this bad

0:50:540:51:00

publicity and I believe people will

vote with their feet if they don't

0:51:000:51:03

like what they have done, but let's

see what RBS decide.

You say you

0:51:030:51:10

believe in the market but it is not

just the market, a parliamentary

0:51:100:51:17

committee including Scottish MPs has

been banging on RBS's dot and

0:51:170:51:22

demanding they stop, that is not the

market but political pressure.

Its

0:51:220:51:30

political and commercial pressure

and consumers showing the bank how

0:51:300:51:32

they feel. This is a competitive

market, there are other ways of

0:51:320:51:38

banking but we have to make sure

that communities have basic banking

0:51:380:51:44

and we cannot allow that to run

away. RBS have a chance to change

0:51:440:51:50

their policy as I will wait and see

what the committee come up with.

0:51:500:51:56

There are supposed to be these

amendments to clause 11 of the

0:51:560:52:00

Brexit bill but they haven't been

produced. Can you explain what the

0:52:000:52:05

problem is? It's a simple thing to

remember one clause of a bill.

Why

0:52:050:52:12

hasn't it happened? It was the

Westminster government and Scottish

0:52:120:52:19

Government who didn't manage an

agreement before the bill left the

0:52:190:52:22

House of Commons and is now going

up...

The Conservatives have already

0:52:220:52:27

conceded that they will change the

clause, it is about one sentence. Is

0:52:270:52:33

the British Government saying,

clause 11 is a point of principle

0:52:330:52:38

about word devolution should be,

there is detailed government about

0:52:380:52:43

what gets devolved where, if the

Government not prepared to concede

0:52:430:52:48

the point of principle until the

detailed stuff has been agreed?

We

0:52:480:52:54

are very near to win agreement but

that is above my pay grade. Who does

0:52:540:53:00

it benefit that it left the House of

Commons and went to the House of

0:53:000:53:04

Lords without being resolved? The

Scottish Government elephants

0:53:040:53:08

because they do not want to see

another factor Brexit. We need to

0:53:080:53:14

work together for job creation and

businesses to get an agreement that

0:53:140:53:17

works.

Colin Clark, thank you.

0:53:170:53:21

The campaign for Votes for Women

was a long and confrontational one,

0:53:210:53:24

pitted against a society

dominated by men.

0:53:240:53:25

Perhaps ironic, then,

that an apocalyptic event triggered

0:53:250:53:28

entirely by men finally helped

deliver that right.

0:53:280:53:32

But only for women over 30.

0:53:320:53:36

The First World War saw

the loss of millions of men.

0:53:360:53:38

As the heavy losses continued,

women's labour became an essential

0:53:380:53:41

part of the war effort.

0:53:410:53:42

Without women, there

could be no victory

0:53:420:53:45

as this taster from an old Pathe

documentary acknowledges.

0:53:450:53:52

One group of women who successfully

mobilised themselves with the

0:53:520:53:58

Scottish women's hospitals. This

film shows one of her units in

0:53:580:54:03

France. When she offered her

services to the or corporate, she

0:54:030:54:06

was told, my good lady, go home and

sit still, but with the

0:54:060:54:14

determination that characterised the

woman, she just went and her

0:54:140:54:17

services were invaluable. The

campaign to get women enrolled in

0:54:170:54:22

munitions industries had been

successful.

I had never been in a

0:54:220:54:29

factory and my friend and I thought,

let's do something. We filled them

0:54:290:54:35

with TNT, explosive and detonators.

The woman also took on highly

0:54:350:54:41

skilled work as well as dangerous

work. Despite fierce opposition from

0:54:410:54:47

male trade unionists, they proved

their capability. By the end of the

0:54:470:54:51

war the role of women in society had

changed dramatically and they were

0:54:510:54:55

trying their hand at all kinds of

new responsibilities. To most people

0:54:550:55:01

it was a scandal that many men

fighting for the country were not

0:55:010:55:05

allowed to vote for its government,

and when the Government agreed on

0:55:050:55:10

votes for fighting men, it was only

fair to include votes for women. A

0:55:100:55:16

by election was held in Plymouth

after Viscount Astor had succeeded

0:55:160:55:28

to his family title.

The new

Conservative candidate was his wife,

0:55:280:55:30

Lady Nancy Astor, who became the

first woman MP. I wanted the world

0:55:300:55:33

to get better and it wouldn't if it

would be ruled by men. Winston

0:55:330:55:36

Churchill once said, what a

remarkable performance, we hope to

0:55:360:55:42

freeze you out, when you entered the

House of Commons I felt like a woman

0:55:420:55:48

had entered my bathroom and I had

nothing to protect myself with

0:55:480:55:52

except bass punch. -- a sponge.

0:55:520:55:57

Well, with me now are the former SNP

MSP and Presiding Officer

0:55:570:56:00

of the Scottish Parliament,

Tricia Marwick, and the journalist

0:56:000:56:02

and editor of Commonspace,

Angela Haggerty.

0:56:020:56:04

The campaign has not really

finished, I imagine.

In terms of

0:56:040:56:12

women's equality, we still have a

long way to go. Women are still

0:56:120:56:19

underrepresented in through society

and workplaces, they faced

0:56:190:56:23

challenges that I don't think we

addressed properly. A lot of women

0:56:230:56:28

moved from traditional roles in home

to the workplace but they still

0:56:280:56:33

shouldered the burden of the home so

it's like the work has doubled in

0:56:330:56:38

many ways, and I don't know that we

talk about that enough. Some of the

0:56:380:56:43

work women did before, we don't

value as work and that continues

0:56:430:56:48

today.

Do you think this solution is

due in a sense socialise part of

0:56:480:56:55

that, for example, if it was

possible, no matter what your

0:56:550:57:02

circumstances, if you are a woman

and you have children, you would

0:57:020:57:07

have nursery provision

automatically, is that necessary?

I

0:57:070:57:12

think so, it's looking at breaking

down barriers holding women back and

0:57:120:57:17

that is one thing were identified,

another one is that societal

0:57:170:57:22

attitudes to women and their role,

we hear a lot about language, the

0:57:220:57:27

way we talk about ambitious men and

ambitious women, it is usually more

0:57:270:57:34

derogatory towards women, but when

you think how much progress has been

0:57:340:57:38

made in the relatively short time,

it is a bit optimistic to expect a

0:57:380:57:43

lot of those attitudes to have

changed as drastically with it. They

0:57:430:57:48

are changing, we are

0:57:480:57:59

seeing in the workplace and politics

and moving forward, it still has a

0:58:040:58:06

long way to go but we are moving in

the right direction and we should be

0:58:060:58:10

proud of that.

Blane McIlroy, the

Scottish parliament was due to be

0:58:100:58:12

new in its attitude.

The great leap

forward was the Scottish parliament

0:58:120:58:21

being set up -- Tricia Mark. It was

about 40%, women to men, and while

0:58:210:58:35

it has dropped slightly, I think it

is important to recognise that the

0:58:350:58:40

cohort of women that we have elected

for the first time in 1999 changed

0:58:400:58:47

the social agenda of Scotland. One

of the first bills was about

0:58:470:58:52

protection against abuse, a

committee bill in 2001. This week we

0:58:520:58:56

have seen a bill against violence

against women and in addition to

0:58:560:59:08

that, 50-50 representation on public

bodies, so I think this huge leap

0:59:080:59:16

forward was the formation of the

Scottish Parliament.

What about the

0:59:160:59:22

social attitudes that Angela was

talking about? Do you think there

0:59:220:59:26

are still different expectations on

the way in which women who are

0:59:260:59:32

politicians are talked about is more

derogatory?

It's difficult to say. I

0:59:320:59:41

haven't experienced that myself, my

own view was that I was more talked

0:59:410:59:46

about in terms of my working-class

background than the fact I was a

0:59:460:59:51

woman but there is no doubt that we

have still some way to go. If it

0:59:510:59:57

hadn't been for the Scottish

parliament we wouldn't be having

0:59:571:00:00

discussions about poverty, we

wouldn't have childcare for

1:00:001:00:07

three-year-olds and for your roles,

so there needs to be acknowledgement

1:00:071:00:13

on how the Scottish Parliament has

shaped the agenda, with help from

1:00:131:00:17

women's groups out with the Scottish

Parliament, but there is no doubt

1:00:171:00:23

that women in Scotland have made a

leap forward.

You are both being

1:00:231:00:30

positive. The acid test would be if

we were in another 15 years having

1:00:301:00:38

this conversation, it would be of

historical interest.

You would hope

1:00:381:00:44

so but we face some challenges. We

have seen some stuff recently with

1:00:441:00:54

the Three movement and there has

been discussion about what women

1:00:541:00:59

face, anyone who has a profile, the

amount of use they will receive,

1:00:591:01:04

that is a real problem and we need

to explore why that is happening

1:01:041:01:09

because that is the kind of thing

that may become a barrier for women,

1:01:091:01:15

even if we changed some of the

structural issues, if we can make

1:01:151:01:19

women feel like they are in fear

when they try to move forward in

1:01:191:01:26

their careers, we will have a

problem.

Tricia Marwick, I was

1:01:261:01:32

interested in what you said about

being working class, did you get

1:01:321:01:36

abuse for that?

I saw some of the

commentators discussing my

1:01:361:01:43

working-class hobbits and I always

thought it was more a class issue

1:01:431:01:49

than the fact that I was the first

female Presiding Officer.

Thank you

1:01:491:01:56

both very much.

1:01:561:01:58

Romance and nostalgia have

long been associated

1:01:581:01:59

with the Highland Clearances.

1:01:591:02:00

The stories of tenants forcibly

evicted from their homes

1:02:001:02:03

during the 18th and 19th centuries

are still etched

1:02:031:02:05

in the minds of many.

1:02:051:02:06

What's less well appreciated

is that the majority of people

1:02:061:02:08

who left the Highlands,

and indeed other parts of rural

1:02:081:02:11

Scotland, did so voluntarily,

attracted by better living standards

1:02:111:02:13

and higher wages in the cities.

1:02:131:02:14

Campaigners are seeking new powers

to reverse the impact of Scotland's

1:02:141:02:17

clearances and help make rural

life more sustainable.

1:02:171:02:19

Graham Stewart's been to a former

township in Argyll to learn

1:02:191:02:21

some lessons from history.

1:02:211:02:25

Auchindrain. The last surviving

example of a Highland township. A

1:02:281:02:40

visible reminder of how we lived and

worked, long since abandoned but

1:02:401:02:46

preserved as a living museum to a

different way of life.

This place

1:02:461:02:51

means a lot to you. It means the

world to me. I like the place and

1:02:511:02:56

its history, I would like a lot more

people to see it and feel the way I

1:02:561:03:02

feel.

And restore this place to its

former glory.

I would love to see

1:03:021:03:10

all the houses dressed and looking

the way they did in the 1800. It

1:03:101:03:15

would be magnificent.

Once there

were thousands of settlements like

1:03:151:03:20

these as families were to scratch an

existence from the line. The

1:03:201:03:25

Highland Clearances decimated these

townships but now there are efforts

1:03:251:03:30

to see these communities reborn.

We

are not thinking to advocate a

1:03:301:03:37

wholesale repopulation to retrace

the previous century settlements but

1:03:371:03:43

we are arguing for a clear

opportunity to resettle and

1:03:431:03:51

repopulate areas where there has

been a declining population, and

1:03:511:03:56

where there are opportunities to

repopulate.

Campaigners want a more

1:03:561:04:02

enlightened approach to rural

development than the planning Bill

1:04:021:04:05

currently before the Scottish

Parliament, to give ministers new

1:04:051:04:10

powers including compulsory purchase

of areas dedicated to resettlement

1:04:101:04:15

to breathe new life into

communities.

Its idealistic, some

1:04:151:04:22

might say romantic because sometimes

these places are difficult to get to

1:04:221:04:27

with no infrastructure, but there

has been a degree of repopulation,

1:04:271:04:34

not of deserted sites themselves but

repopulation of parts of the

1:04:341:04:39

Highlands and Islands. We note the

population of islands like sky and

1:04:391:04:44

Malle has increased and there has

been a phenomenon.

Just a few weeks

1:04:441:04:52

ago, residents of Mull backed up

community plan the island of Ulva

1:04:521:05:00

and the hope is that it can be

repopulated.

It would not be a big

1:05:001:05:06

ask to ask people to come back here,

there has always been an interest in

1:05:061:05:11

places like this and the fact we

have a great primary school close

1:05:111:05:15

by, it offers a chance for families

to come here to start up their own

1:05:151:05:20

businesses, so there is a great

number of attractions to somewhere

1:05:201:05:27

like Ulva.

An intriguing idea, where

it can move forward practically, is

1:05:271:05:34

a different issue and a different

problem.

1:05:341:05:42

There are visible reminders of the

present family life. It was the

1:05:421:05:48

introduction of new agricultural

techniques to let him so many

1:05:481:05:51

abandoning the old townships. If

people are to return, how exactly

1:05:511:05:56

would you make a living? Is it old

adage goes, you cannot eat scenery.

1:05:561:06:03

With electronic technology and the

internet in particular have made it

1:06:031:06:07

possible for businesses to surprise

in some of these alias that it would

1:06:071:06:10

not have been possible to do so. And

a sense, you can work from home,

1:06:101:06:14

especially if you are using

brainpower than hand power.

Holm is

1:06:141:06:20

powered by broadband rather than

call open up a new possibility for

1:06:201:06:26

Scotland's abandoned communities,

but in a week when small businesses

1:06:261:06:30

called the provision of mobile phone

coverage in Scotland embarrassing, a

1:06:301:06:34

lot more investment is going to be

needed to even partly reversed

1:06:341:06:38

clearances and make the rural homes

of the future fit for living.

1:06:381:06:45

Time now to take a look

at the week ahead.

1:06:451:06:55

With me this week are former

Labour Minister Dame Anne McGuire

1:06:551:06:57

and the Sunday Herald's

Investigations Editor Paul Hutcheon.

1:06:571:07:07

You want another referendum on

Europe, don't you?

I just think

1:07:081:07:14

there is a valid and logical

argument for saying that people

1:07:141:07:18

should have the outcome of the

negotiations put to them, and I

1:07:181:07:21

think it is now... There is an

interesting argument out there among

1:07:211:07:27

politicians.

Jeremy Corbyn's point

of view is that there has been a

1:07:271:07:30

referendum and you do not go against

a result of it, so you make the best

1:07:301:07:34

of it.

It is a counter view to that,

and I think it is quite interesting,

1:07:341:07:40

and I was interested in Ian

Blackford squirming on the end of

1:07:401:07:43

your credit as he was trying to ease

pain that he may be in favour, or he

1:07:431:07:47

thinks he may be in favour but he is

not sure. But there is a valid

1:07:471:07:50

argument to be had.

Why did you make

of the SNP's position? It was

1:07:501:07:59

difficult to understand, but it

taught about having another

1:07:591:08:03

independence referendum to get out

of you look, but then Ian Blackford

1:08:031:08:08

said we cannot have another EU

referendum because we voted to leave

1:08:081:08:11

the EU, and then do is this new

campaign which they could avoid the

1:08:111:08:17

SNP to join.

If you catch the

official position, they say that it

1:08:171:08:21

is not their feud that there should

be a second referendum. They do not

1:08:211:08:24

relate out in they do not rule it

out in its entirety. I just wonder

1:08:241:08:31

if that is a holding position

formats. At the mental imbalance, --

1:08:311:08:40

is momentum builds, they might

change their position. I think they

1:08:401:08:45

would like others to do the running

on it. If there was a head of steam,

1:08:451:08:51

by the Lib Dems, and that Labour

change their possessing, of course

1:08:511:08:55

the SMP would jump on the bandwagon.

I don't think Nicola Sturgeon, deep

1:08:551:09:03

down, thinks a second independence

referendum is something she can win.

1:09:031:09:11

RBS. If they don't make an

announcement over the next few days

1:09:111:09:14

that they are going to cancel some

of these closers, then their PR

1:09:141:09:19

department has handled this very

badly.

It has gone in the last 24

1:09:191:09:23

hours from maybe two, there will be,

almost, given all the comments that

1:09:231:09:29

have been made. I hope they have

reviewed it. Some of the closures

1:09:291:09:32

are frankly mad. If you take Barra,

for example, a landmass surrounded

1:09:321:09:43

by water. People are told that the

nearest bank is a very right and it

1:09:431:09:49

would journey away. It is a

nonsense. You have a similar

1:09:491:09:52

position and other parts of the

Highlands, and I others's understand

1:09:521:09:58

and other parts of the Borders. It

is an exercise done on a map, in an

1:09:581:10:04

office, on paper, without thinking

of the implications. Not just for

1:10:041:10:08

the local businesses, but also for

the economic importance of a bank in

1:10:081:10:12

a community.

What always amazes me

about these, as we can take it that

1:10:121:10:17

they are going to stop some of these

closers, is that they have got huge

1:10:171:10:23

public relations department were

just that by very well-paid people.

1:10:231:10:26

It always amazes me that these

companies... Did no one think, hang

1:10:261:10:30

on, there might be a problem?

They

should see the list to go back last

1:10:301:10:37

to these proposals. Obviously,

mobile banking is on the rise, but

1:10:371:10:40

lots of people do not have mobile

banking and they do rely on a

1:10:401:10:45

branch, particularly if you live in

a rural area and you do not have

1:10:451:10:49

broadband. I do think that has been

a PR disaster for the bank. I also

1:10:491:10:55

see the fact that the build-out RBS,

we are the majority shareholder, and

1:10:551:11:01

the turnaround and treat us like

this.

As Theresa May going to

1:11:011:11:08

survive?

I think one way and the

other on this, depending on what I

1:11:081:11:13

am reading in the news. There was

one point last week and I thought

1:11:131:11:17

she had almost reached the tipping

point, and I saw the momentum in the

1:11:171:11:22

it is whether or not we had reached

that point last week.

This week,

1:11:221:11:26

this morning...

What you mean a

momentum? I think sometimes it is a

1:11:261:11:32

point of no return when the Bush is

so great, even though it is not all

1:11:321:11:37

in the public domain, but

underneath.

There are clearly people

1:11:371:11:42

sending this letters in.

There are.

And they are in a difficult

1:11:421:11:48

position, because there may be some

way in which it can be revealed how

1:11:481:11:51

many letters he has had. He needs 48

letters. It is said that he has got

1:11:511:11:56

42 just now. I think the only thing

that is stopping some of the Tories

1:11:561:12:02

tried to get rid of heart as the

alternative. We do not have an

1:12:021:12:07

agreement on an alternative. They do

not have an agreement on which

1:12:071:12:11

candidate would stand.

We do want

another election?

Presumably, no. A

1:12:111:12:18

general election?

No, no. Do you

think they could do any better with

1:12:181:12:23

any other leader?

Probably. You

brought down Margaret Thatcher and

1:12:231:12:29

John Major and the David Cameron, I

think it will do the same to Theresa

1:12:291:12:34

May. She has no Government agenda

beyond Brexit. She does not know

1:12:341:12:37

what a negotiation patient is my

position is good to be in the

1:12:371:12:44

stocks.

They argue and forgiving her

is if you had an aggregate in advert

1:12:441:12:50

hard Brexiteer, the party would just

split, and the very fact that she is

1:12:501:12:54

sitting on the fence and in a sense

cannot do very much is actually have

1:12:541:12:58

strength.

What I think is going to

happen is that she is going to be

1:12:581:13:03

placed into a softer Brexit

possession by people like their

1:13:031:13:06

chance, the opposition parties,

probably the country. That will

1:13:061:13:10

enrich the Brexiteers in her own

group, who are a majority, and I

1:13:101:13:15

think they will bring her down. You

will probably see some unlike Boris

1:13:151:13:20

Johnson woggle over art Jacob

Rees-Mogg will take over.

I don't

1:13:201:13:27

know every cot and camera at the

expression on your face...

I think

1:13:271:13:33

Theresa May had a gilded life up

until she became Prime Minister. I

1:13:331:13:36

used to think she was a head and

talent. I think she has nearly got

1:13:361:13:45

heading -- not got talent, nor is it

hadn't. They thought of Boris

1:13:451:13:49

Johnson as Prime Minister is

horrific.

We'll have to leave it

1:13:491:13:52

there. Until then, goodbye.

1:13:521:13:56

Sarah Smith and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Guests include chairman of the Conservative Party Brandon Lewis MP and shadow secretary of state for health Jonathan Ashworth MP. The political panel comprises Tom Newton Dunn, Steve Richards and Julia Hartley-Brewer.


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