28/01/2018 Sunday Politics Scotland


28/01/2018

Sarah Smith and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate, with guests including Theresa Villiers MP, Lord Callanan and Jon Trickett MP.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning everyone, and welcome

to the Sunday Politics.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

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And this is the programme that

will provide your essential briefing

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on everything that's

moving and shaking in

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the world of politics.

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Can the Conservative Party speak

with one voice on Brexit?

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As Tory splits spill out

in to the open once again this week,

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can the Prime Minister

reassert her authority

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over a divided party?

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We'll be speaking to the former

Conservative Cabinet

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Minister, Theresa Villiers -

hitherto a loyal voice,

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but who says she's now worried

about Brexit being diluted.

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Is Jeremy Corbyn heading for a fight

with Labour councillors?

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As local government chiefs accuse

the party's ruling body of trying

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to intervene in local decisions,

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we'll be speaking to one

of Jeremy Corbyn's key allies.

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And on Sunday Politics Scotland:

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New allegations around

the shenanigans enveloping

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Scotland's Force.

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The Conservative Justice

spokesperson tells this programme

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they are absolutely extraordinary.

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All that coming up in the programme.

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And to help me to make sense

of all the big stories today, I'm

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joined by Camilla Tominey,

Rafael Behr and Rachel Shabi.

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I'm sure they certainly

won't all speak with one voice.

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The newspaper headlines

make pretty grim reading

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for the Government this morning.

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'Tories in Turmoil',

'Brexit betrayal',

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'PM told to raise her game'.

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Tory Brexit divisions erupted

in public once again this week.

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So, is the Government's

biggest priority now

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becoming its biggest headache?

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Morning, Home Secretary. They

divided cabinet?

A new cabinet since

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that modest reshuffle but still the

same old Brexit split. Foreign

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Secretary Boris Johnson, who spent

so much time on that infamous boss

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promising extra money for the NHS,

went off Brive at the meeting on

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Tuesday, pushing the government to

honour that much maligned pledge.

Do

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you want to be the health secretary?

Philip Hammond was in Brussels from

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where he sent a swift review.

Mr

Johnson is the foreign secretary. I

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gave the Health Secretary an extra

£6 billion at the recent budget.

And

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labour leader Jeremy Corbyn piled in

at Prime Minister 's questions.

Does

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the Prime Minister agree with the

Foreign Secretary that the national

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Health Service needs an extra £5

billion?

I think the right

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honourable gentleman, as I recall

was here for the autumn budget which

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was given by the Chancellor of the

Exchequer, where he announced he

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would be putting £6 billion more

into the National Health Service.

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Meanwhile, Jacob Rees-Mogg took on

the Brexit Secretary David Davis

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over the transition deal.

We are

only actually out at the end of the

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transition. That is a big shift in

government policy and a big move

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away from the vault.

I do not accept

your description.

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your description.

Next day, Theresa

May travelled to the World Economic

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Forum in Davos to heal a different

divide, this time her special

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relationship with Donald Trump.

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relationship with Donald Trump. Her

Chancellor described in modest

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change in Britain's relationship

with the EU. Now he was being

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rebuked by furious colleagues as

well as his boss. David Davies

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insists the Cabinet are united. They

want a good deal.

There is no

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difference between the Chancellor

and myself and indeed the Prime

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Minister, in terms of the fact we

both want a Brexit that serves the

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British economy and the British

people.

The EU will set out their

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bargaining position for a phase two

of the Brexit negotiations tomorrow.

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But can we find an agreed British

response.

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So to discuss the implications of

all of the week's events I've got my

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expert panel. Welcome. Camilla,

these are quite remarkable headlines

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this morning about the party being

in turmoil over Theresa May's

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leadership and the direction of

Brexit policy. Let's start with

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Brexit. How deep are the divide?

I

think they are very deep. The tide

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has turned a bit in the last week.

Normally when you are covering these

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issues in the lobby, there is

underlying hysteria. I think there

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are quite a lot of people on both

sides scratching their heads,

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looking at some of the editorials we

saw in the week about the Tory

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party, particularly when referring

to Theresa May as a Wizard of Oz

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character. A lot in the Tory party

can't disagree with that. They

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regard her as a caretaker Prime

Minister. A lot of them have been

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giving her the benefit of the doubt

particularly on Brexit because she

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has been consistent about what

Brexit means. That did not mean

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leaving the single market and the

Customs Union. -- that it must mean.

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To have Boris Johnson and Philip

Hammond freelancing on the sidelines

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makes her look weak and unable to

keep the Cabinet together. That

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gives the general impression to the

country that they aren't quite in

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charge of things and that she

particularly isn't across her brief.

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The key question at the heart of

this is which of these Cabinet

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ministers are reflecting the Prime

Minister pots opinion on this --'s

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opinion on this. Does she agree with

Philip Hammond, or is she looking

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for a more significant divergence?

This is absolutely critical. We talk

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about Brexit divisions. We are used

to thinking about the division being

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about Remainers and levers. That is

not the division we are talking

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about. There is a group of people in

government who have now focused on

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the practical technical difficulty

of what is required to get Britain

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safely out of the European Union.

And they for the most part, and I

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will include the Prime Minister,

have understood it is a long

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incremental process. You want an

arrangement that looks pretty much

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like the status quo. If there is

going to be divergence from EU

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rules, it will be incremental. We

get the impression the Prime

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Minister has signed off on that

approach because she is a cautious

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person. The problem is the

Chancellor said it out loud. He had

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the temerity to say it. This is the

plan. You have the other group of

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people, the harder, more ideological

Brexiteers are not in government,

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who don't have to focus on the

practical reality, look at that and

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think, that doesn't sound like

emancipation and freedom, that

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sounds a bit boring. When you listen

to what some of the critics of the

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Prime Minister from the hard Brexit

position are saying, it is not

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obvious what they are asking her to

do. What they want from her is a

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sense of clarity, a sense of whether

or not she can have the confidence

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to stand up and say, the Chancellor

is right. They are testing courtesy

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of she can do that and she won't do

that because she doesn't want the

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huge tsunami of betrayal from the

right.

It is also impossible

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Bridgeford Theresa May to try and

cross. How can she reconcile these

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different views of what Brexit is

going to look like at the point

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where we have to start laying out

what Britain's approach will be?

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That is the problem. The divisions

are seemingly irreconcilable in the

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party. That is their own problem. It

has become a national problem

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because they are doing it while in

government. They have a over us

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while they are falling apart. That

is completely irresponsible. In

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terms of where we are going to end

up, we all know. We saw from phase

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one of EU that actually everything

was conceded to the soft Brexit

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model was conceded two in what was

agreed to during the parameters of

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phase one. It seems like, do we

really have to go through this all

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again, this pretend, this bickering,

this biting, when we know in the end

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we are going to end up with a

situation that is a soft Brexit

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because this is where the major

constituency is in Westminster and

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the country.

We have a couple of

guest to make disagree with that. We

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will return to you guys later.

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Well, the Cabinet Minister David

Lidington was talking

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to Andrew Marr this morning,

and was asked about the backlash

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on the Government's Brexit strategy

from Jacob Rees-Mogg and other

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Conservative MPs.

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Jacob, like everybody else, needs to

see how negotiations go. We are

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about to start negotiations. I'm not

going into detail about that

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process. Secondly, the very fact

that we will have left the European

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Union is a big deal indeed. The bill

in front of Parliament extinguishes

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the power of the European Court and

supranational EU law over the UK.

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I'm joined now by the former

Cabinet Minister, Theresa Villiers.

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She has written a piece in today's

Sunday Telegraph telling

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of her growing concern that

Brexit is being diluted.

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Thank you for coming on. What do you

mean by Brexit been diluted?

I have

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consistently argued the case for

compromise and I recognise it is

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necessary. What I was saying in my

article this morning was that if you

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go too far with compromise,

eventually you get to the point

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where we wouldn't generally be

leaving the European Union, we

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wouldn't be respecting the result of

the referendum.

You are concerned

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that is the direction they're

heading in?

I am concerned. We must

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retain the right to divergence Romeu

laws. One of the key points of

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leaving the European Union is to

ensure that we make our own laws in

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our own parliaments and not be

subject to laws made by people we

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don't elect and can't remove.

What

has made you concerned that is the

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direction in which we are heading?

Is it Chancellor talking about

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modest changes or something

happening behind the scenes?

It is a

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combination of things. I think in

part the government faces a

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difficult challenge convincing

people on the Leave side of the

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debate. So many times in the past

there have been Prime Ministers

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who've gone to Brussels and said, it

will be fine, we would bring you

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back a deal, and at the last minute

there has been, territory has been

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given away. We have made

compromises. I accept the need for

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that. There is only so far you can

go before ultimately you find

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yourself in a position where you are

deleting Brexit so much that it

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isn't leaving the European Union in

a real sense.

When you hear Philip

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Hammond say they will only be modest

changes to our relationship with the

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EU, you think he is reflecting

government policy? Downing Street

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tried to refute what he was saying.

Only actually said was, you can't

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call leaving the single market and

Customs union a modest change. You

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are anxious, are you, that right at

the top they are worried about

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keeping fairly close alignment with

the EU?

The Prime Minister set out a

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bold vision for Brexit in her

Lancaster House speech. My article

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is about appealing to the government

to stick to that vision and

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implemented so that once we leave

the European Union we are back in

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control of our laws, money and

borders.

The Prime Minister has set

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this out in Lancaster House and in

Florence. Why do you think she would

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be backsliding? Makes you think

anything has changed?

I don't think

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she wants to backslide. I think what

is happening is that she is under

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huge sustained pressure from a range

of quarters to reverse the result of

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the referendum. So in part, but I am

trying to do is to re-emphasise the

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positive case for Brexit. And we

emphasise that whilst there are

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those who want to soften things up

and frustrate the implementation of

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the referendum, others are

enthusiastic about implementing that

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vision in the Lancaster House

speech.

Were those people who want

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to frustrate her? You must be

worried they are right inside the

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Cabinet for you to write a newspaper

article about this. You must be

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worried if his right at the top of

government?

I don't believe that. I

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think the Cabinet is united in

wanting to do this.

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wanting to do this.

After the

different views we had this week?

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This is an issue that has divided

the country. The key battle now is

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what is going to be the end state we

ask for in the negotiations? We must

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ask for an end state based on the

Lancaster House speech, which means

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retaining control, making our own

laws in our own Parliament. That is

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how we have -- we become genuinely

an independent country again and

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respect the result of the

referendum.

Do you think the

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Chancellor was contravening stated

policy when he talked about modest

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changes. --? Was he out of line?

I

wouldn't make too much of that one

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comment. That has not wanted my

concerns. What I want to do is

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ensure the case for a real Brexit is

made. I fully acknowledge the

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technical scale of the exercise of

withdrawing from the European Union.

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It is very complicated. That is one

of the reasons why I have had a --

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advocated and supported compromise.

There is only so far you can go

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without -- with compromise without

finding yourself selling out on the

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people who voted to leave.

The next

phase will be about the

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implementation period before we get

to the final future relationship

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with the EU. We learned a little bit

more about the government approached

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and that this week. David Davis made

it sound as if there will be no

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changes to free movement of people

whatsoever during the two-year

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transition phase. Does that concern

you? That seems to be a change in

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policy.

For me, the important issue

is what happens at the end of the

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transition period.

You are relaxed

about two years of transition which

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looks most identical to staying in

the EU?

I accept that looks like

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what is current to happen. I think

there is a case for a transition

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period. I think my worry now is if

we go into the transition period

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without the clearest possible

understanding of what the

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arrangements are when we leave, so I

believe that we must have as much

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detail as possible in relation to

our agreement with the European

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Union, that we reach before the

transition period starts. If we go

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into it not knowing the end state,

that would worry me.

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When it comes to the end state, what

are the things you couldn't sign up

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to? What's being described as easy

movement of people in and out of the

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UK, would that lead to a point it

was a Brexit deal you couldn't agree

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to?

The key issues are the end state

must allow the UK to run its own

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trade policy and make its own

decisions on rules and regulations.

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So no involvement from the European

Court of Justice?

The Government has

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agreed a time limited role for that.

I don't see it as a problem but any

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enlargement of that role I would see

as worrying.

Do you think there's

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any possibility you could end up

voting against this in Parliament?

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I'm not going to make predictions on

how I will vote on a deal that

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hasn't been agreed yet. I want to

make sure we work together to try to

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bridge divisions, to come up with an

agreement with the European Union

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which gives us a new partnership

with them, which hopefully a

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majority can be comfortable

whichever way they vote in June 2000

0:16:420:16:46

16.

Thank you.

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Joining me now from

Newcastle is the Brexit

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Minister Lord Callanan.

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Can you offer any reassurance to

Theresa Villiers and any other

0:16:530:16:56

members of your party who are

worried about this that government

0:16:560:16:59

is not going soft on Brexit?

We are

not going soft, there's been no

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backsliding on the Prime Minister's

Lancaster house speech. We will be

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regaining control of our laws, money

and borders. We will be establishing

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an independent trade policy as she

set out in her speech.

0:17:150:17:22

set out in her speech.

Theresa

Villiers is completely wrong when

0:17:220:17:25

she says she's worried Brexit is

being diluted, is she?

Yes, she is

0:17:250:17:30

wrong. It's not being diluted, the

Prime Minister is in charge of the

0:17:300:17:35

negotiations and we will be

negotiating with our European

0:17:350:17:38

partners in good faith, our friends

and allies, but the objectives

0:17:380:17:42

remain as she set out.

So it was the

Chancellor who was wrong when he

0:17:420:17:46

said there would only be modest

changes in our relationship?

No, the

0:17:460:17:51

Chancellor has said he is of the

vision the Prime Minister has set

0:17:510:17:55

out.

0:17:550:18:00

out. We will be negotiating with our

European partners to bring about

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frictionless trading arrangements

but the important part of the

0:18:050:18:08

negotiations is that we have to

regain control of our ability to set

0:18:080:18:12

our own rules and undulations.

Though there may be some areas where

0:18:120:18:16

if there are integrated supply lines

we might want to reflect current EU

0:18:160:18:21

regulations but the important thing

is we decide those matters for

0:18:210:18:24

ourselves.

David Davis presumably

speaks for government when he is

0:18:240:18:29

describing the transition phase, and

he says during this implementation

0:18:290:18:33

period people will of course be able

to travel between the UK and the EU

0:18:330:18:38

to live and work. That sounds like

free movement is continuing as

0:18:380:18:42

before but we were told it would end

as soon as we left the EU in 2019.

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We would introduce a registration

scheme so we knew he was coming to

0:18:500:18:55

the country.

You could do that right

now. This registration idea, this is

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not something that comes about

because we have left the EU, we

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could have introduced that years ago

if we wanted to. Several European

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countries asked the UK citizens to

register.

Let's see what the

0:19:100:19:17

negotiations produced, but what we

want to do is reflect current rules

0:19:170:19:20

and regulations as closely as

possible so that at the end of the

0:19:200:19:24

implementation period, and it's

important that is strictly

0:19:240:19:28

time-limited, we agree with the EU

on that, at the end of that state we

0:19:280:19:32

will introduce a new immigration

policy and take control of our

0:19:320:19:37

rules, regulations and borders. It

sounds

0:19:370:19:45

sounds a lot like a red line that

has gone very pale pink.

0:19:470:19:52

We are about to have the

negotiations. We will sit down in

0:19:520:19:55

good faith with our European

partners, talk about how the

0:19:550:19:59

implementation period will work and

what the end state will be.

But we

0:19:590:20:03

don't have to wait to find out what

the UK Government position is

0:20:030:20:07

because David Davis set it out this

week and pretty much described free

0:20:070:20:12

movement continuing as it is.

As I

said, we are having the

0:20:120:20:17

negotiations, we are about to start

them, let's not give away our

0:20:170:20:20

positions before we do that. We want

to reach an agreement as soon as

0:20:200:20:25

possible so we get certainty that

business knows where we are going at

0:20:250:20:28

the end of the period and we move

towards the new state at the end of

0:20:280:20:33

a strictly time-limited

implementation period.

So would it

0:20:330:20:39

be helpful if the Prime Minister

were to make another speech, where

0:20:390:20:42

she set out clearly what the

Government's position is on the

0:20:420:20:44

future direction of travel on the

transition period and future end

0:20:440:20:47

state so that instead of listening

to Cabinet ministers with diverging

0:20:470:20:51

views on this, we knew from the

Prime Minister what the Government's

0:20:510:20:56

policy was?

The policy remains what

she set out in detail in the

0:20:560:21:03

Lancaster house speech followed up

by the Florence speech where she

0:21:030:21:06

outlined the new end state we want

to end up with and the procedures

0:21:060:21:10

for getting there. She set it out in

great detail, that was very clear

0:21:100:21:16

but we need to have under --

negotiation at the end of the day.

0:21:160:21:24

These are difficult, complicated and

tricky areas but we remain focused

0:21:240:21:27

on the end state which is we will be

leaving the single market and the

0:21:270:21:32

customs union, having independent

trade policy and deciding our own

0:21:320:21:37

rules and regulations.

The EU

Withdrawal Bill will come to the

0:21:370:21:40

Lords this week to your house, are

we going to see government

0:21:400:21:47

compromise?

We will be listening to

the debate. We showed that we were

0:21:470:21:53

prepared to reflect and think about

contributions made, and if people

0:21:530:21:58

have suggestions that we agree with

that we will improve the legislation

0:21:580:22:01

and of course we will do that. The

House of Lords has a very important

0:22:010:22:06

role and we will carry that out

effectively and we will listen to

0:22:060:22:09

what the debate says.

So you are

open to government amendments

0:22:090:22:14

changing the EU Withdrawal Bill? On

issues like Henry VIII powers or

0:22:140:22:22

something like that?

We have already

compromised on those areas in the

0:22:220:22:26

House of Commons so we will listen

to what the debate brings. Peers

0:22:260:22:30

take their role of scrutinising EU

legislation closely and we will

0:22:300:22:34

reflect on that and introduce

changes if we think they are

0:22:340:22:38

warranted.

Thanks for talking to us

this morning.

0:22:380:22:42

And you can find more Brexit

analysis and explanation on the

0:22:420:22:45

BBC website.

0:22:450:22:46

This week Labour's

ruling body, the National

0:22:460:22:48

Executive Committee, or NEC,

stepped in to a bitter row

0:22:480:22:50

about a controversial housing

project in the London

0:22:500:22:52

borough of Haringey.

0:22:520:22:53

It's led to deep divisions

between the NEC and councillors

0:22:530:22:56

across the country, with the Labour

leader of Newcastle City Council

0:22:560:22:58

calling it a "declaration of war".

0:22:580:23:04

With Jeremy Corbyn supporters

consolidating their grip

0:23:050:23:06

on the ruling body of the party,

Emma Vardy's been looking

0:23:060:23:09

at the new battle lines being drawn.

0:23:090:23:14

You might not think to look at it

but this council estate in north

0:23:140:23:19

London is being seen as a battle

ground for the very soul of the

0:23:190:23:22

Labour Party. Labour run Haringey

plans to redevelop the estate in

0:23:220:23:28

partnership with a private company

but the pro-Corbyn pressure group

0:23:280:23:33

momentum has led a campaign opposing

it.

You do not gift people's houses

0:23:330:23:40

to a private developer and say you

can demolish these...

When Labour's

0:23:400:23:45

ruling body, the NEC, intervened

telling Haringey to force the

0:23:450:23:50

project, some Labour supporters were

outraged.

We have now got the

0:23:500:23:55

National executive committee

effectively telling a Labour council

0:23:550:23:57

what to do and I'm thinking where

does this end?

This, some believe,

0:23:570:24:04

is what they see as the hard left of

the party using the row as an excuse

0:24:040:24:09

to get rid of more moderate Labour

council is ahead of next year 's

0:24:090:24:14

elections. Around a third of the

Haringey Labour group of either been

0:24:140:24:18

deselected or they have stood down.

How is this being seen by other

0:24:180:24:23

Labour council is looking on?

There's 100 names on an open letter

0:24:230:24:28

to the NEC today saying stay out of

local council business, and one of

0:24:280:24:32

them, the Labour leader of Corby

Borough Council who can be found up

0:24:320:24:38

there, called it a disgrace.

I

signed the letter because I wanted

0:24:380:24:45

to demonstrate solidarity with a

colleague, also to send a message to

0:24:450:24:49

the NEC that we believe it is

inappropriate to intervene in the

0:24:490:24:52

way they did. Labour and local

government are the people governing

0:24:520:24:58

here in this country, we are not in

Government nationally, we are in

0:24:580:25:02

Government locally and we are doing

a good job locally. We are

0:25:020:25:08

protecting our people.

Do you think

the NEC will listen?

I would hope

0:25:080:25:12

so.

The intervention that led to

this row came for the first time

0:25:120:25:17

since Momentum leader was elected as

one of its members.

The NEC has

0:25:170:25:24

expressed a view, it has not

mandated, not stormed in and taken

0:25:240:25:29

over, and I think for every person

you can find who is upset I can find

0:25:290:25:33

tenants who are delighted.

Jeremy

Corbyn's support base on the NEC has

0:25:330:25:38

been strengthened after recent

elections so could this lead to

0:25:380:25:41

sweeping changes on party policy in

the future?

Where you can see

0:25:410:25:45

greater radicalism is on areas of

economic policy, following Carillion

0:25:450:25:51

Labour has been clear they want an

end to outsourcing completely if

0:25:510:25:55

they are elected, that they would

like to take contracts back

0:25:550:25:58

in-house, and at a local of all the

tensions exist as well.

What is the

0:25:580:26:03

risk with upsetting councils?

Is it

causes local divisions and they want

0:26:030:26:09

parties to be focused on governing.

It also threatens to cause tensions

0:26:090:26:16

between MPs. A lot of MPs see Labour

councillors as proud bastions of the

0:26:160:26:20

party and see them as a barrier to

those who they think are taking too

0:26:200:26:25

much of a faction or ideological

approach.

What would your message

0:26:250:26:31

beta Jeremy Corbyn?

That the Labour

Party are very fortunate to have a

0:26:310:26:35

large cohort of very experienced and

talented councillors up and down the

0:26:350:26:39

country. We know what we are doing,

a us to get on with that.

Local

0:26:390:26:45

councils aside, in Parliament Jeremy

Corbyn has won the

0:26:450:26:53

Corbyn has won the support of many

Labour MPs who now believe he should

0:26:530:26:56

lead them into the next election,

but could it be the relationship

0:26:560:26:59

with the wider party in local

government that becomes the one that

0:26:590:27:01

is more difficult to manage?

0:27:010:27:02

Emma Vardy reporting.

0:27:020:27:03

Jon Trickett is a member

of the Shadow Cabinet, and also sits

0:27:030:27:06

on Labour's National Executive

Committee.

0:27:060:27:07

He joins me now from Yorkshire.

0:27:070:27:12

We have got the leader of Newcastle

City Council, the Labour leader,

0:27:130:27:18

saying this is a declaration of war,

the NEC getting involved in the

0:27:180:27:23

local government decision.

The first

thing to say is Labour is in

0:27:230:27:29

Government throughout this country

in local councils, we are very proud

0:27:290:27:32

of our record in local government

but the NEC took a decision the

0:27:320:27:36

other day, it was unanimous by the

way, nobody voted against it, and

0:27:360:27:41

Nick was in the room. He made a

strong case for the autonomy of

0:27:410:27:44

councils and in general that is what

we think too. In fact we want to

0:27:440:27:48

bring more powers back to local

council...

You cannot reconcile

0:27:480:27:54

giving more power to councils with

the idea there is a top-down diktats

0:27:540:27:59

on what decisions councils must

take.

Let me just finish the point

0:27:590:28:04

because what the NEC did was to ask

for a pause. We did it politely but

0:28:040:28:10

we said before that should happen,

let's have a conversation between

0:28:100:28:14

Haringey and the NEC and that

conversation is now taking place or

0:28:140:28:18

Wilby. I think this is an

exaggerated row and when people look

0:28:180:28:23

at the facts, we have asked for a

pause is not necessarily a change in

0:28:230:28:28

policy, though we think the policy

was wrong and we want a conversation

0:28:280:28:35

with Haringey.

You are having a

conversation between the NEC and

0:28:350:28:40

Haringey. If Haringey Council

refused to change their minds about

0:28:400:28:43

this, they will then be subject to a

diktats from the NEC, will they not?

0:28:430:28:49

I'm not going to go into a

speculative conversation with you

0:28:490:28:52

but let's remember the background to

this. This is effectively a huge

0:28:520:29:00

deal outsourcing huge amounts of

resources and assets in Haringey. It

0:29:000:29:04

is very controversial and remember

this, the NEC received a letter from

0:29:040:29:10

22 Labour councillors on Haringey

Council asking for a pause. We

0:29:100:29:15

reacted to that request from within

Haringey itself and all of this

0:29:150:29:20

takes in the background of problems

at Grenfell and also with the

0:29:200:29:25

collapse of Carillion, both of which

I think our matters we need to be

0:29:250:29:28

thinking about when we are thinking

in local councils about outsourcing

0:29:280:29:33

additional provision. I am

optimistic we will find an amicable

0:29:330:29:36

way forward.

It gets to a

fundamental policy aspect of the

0:29:360:29:41

Labour Party as to who makes

decisions and surely you say some

0:29:410:29:44

Labour councils were concerned about

this, the majority of Labour members

0:29:440:29:54

on the council were in favour of it.

0:29:540:30:00

The ruling body of the Labour Party

is obliged by the Constitution to

0:30:000:30:03

take a view where there is clearly a

dispute within one of our

0:30:030:30:11

constitutional elements. And there

was an absolutely clear position

0:30:110:30:14

that there was a dispute. We were

asked to intervene. We took a view

0:30:140:30:19

and asked the council to think about

it again and agreed to mediation. I

0:30:190:30:23

don't think this is unreasonable.

The Constitution of the party

0:30:230:30:29

requires the NEC from time to time

to make sure that the constitutional

0:30:290:30:32

elements operate within the

policies, programmes and principles

0:30:320:30:35

of the Labour Party. I think it is a

storm in a teacup.

It is about the

0:30:350:30:42

controversial issue of outsourcing.

That is something you are speaking

0:30:420:30:47

out about this week, saying the

Labour government would reverse

0:30:470:30:52

outsourcing, setting out clear rules

for companies you would give

0:30:520:30:55

contracts to, including the idea

that the boss should not be paid

0:30:550:30:57

more than 20 times more than the

lowest paid worker. It would be

0:30:570:31:04

quite difficult to find construction

companies to build, say, HS2 if

0:31:040:31:11

you're going to stick to those

rules?

Well, there are all kinds of

0:31:110:31:16

different contracts which are

outsourced. Some of them can be done

0:31:160:31:19

by the public sector, others can't.

We will be thinking about those

0:31:190:31:24

services which are outsourced. The

facts are if you work for the

0:31:240:31:30

Council or the government, the top

ratio to the average pay is 20 to

0:31:300:31:33

one. In the private sector it is 156

to one. That means in a year's work

0:31:330:31:42

by a chief executive, the average

worker has to work 156 years, almost

0:31:420:31:46

for working like -- lifetimes. We

don't think that is how taxpayers

0:31:460:31:52

want the money spent.

When you say

you won't give government contracts

0:31:520:31:56

to companies who don't have this 20

to one pay ratio you are talking all

0:31:560:32:03

government contracts?

We have said

we want to move towards a ratio of

0:32:030:32:09

20 to one. I don't think people

watching will have any compunction

0:32:090:32:12

to say that is not unreasonable. If

you are a boss you should definitely

0:32:120:32:20

earn more than the average pay. But

156 times? I don't think that is

0:32:200:32:24

reasonable.

Depends how quickly you

would move towards this. If you got

0:32:240:32:31

into government and took over the

management of say HS2, and there are

0:32:310:32:37

£7 billion worth of contracts, most

are companies which don't fit your

0:32:370:32:42

criteria, would you be cancelling

those contracts are maintaining

0:32:420:32:45

contracts with companies that don't

fit your pay rules?

Contracts which

0:32:450:32:52

are already left, you cannot easily

break those contracts, nor should

0:32:520:32:56

you want to. It would be illegal. If

the contract was operating in a way

0:32:560:33:01

which was contrary to the contract,

clearly we would want to look at

0:33:010:33:04

bringing that back in-house. It is

horses for horses -- courses.

0:33:040:33:13

horses for horses -- courses.

So you

would continue with the contracts

0:33:140:33:17

the government signed for the

construction of HS2 even though

0:33:170:33:20

these companies don't meet your

criteria?

In the case of HS2,

0:33:200:33:25

remember, it went to Carillion, and

20 Carillion after government knew

0:33:250:33:30

they were in trouble.

There are ten

more companies involved in this.

But

0:33:300:33:37

Carillion are in trouble. The truth

is the government gave them billions

0:33:370:33:41

of pounds, I think it was £1.4

billion, to a company which was

0:33:410:33:46

clearly going belly up. It is

completely wrong.

0:33:460:33:49

Jon Trickett, thank you. I will talk

to the panel about what we have

0:33:490:33:56

heard on the programme so far. In

Trieste -- interesting ideas from

0:33:560:34:00

Jon Trickett. It would be harder to

impose their rules about outsourcing

0:34:000:34:07

and private companies, wouldn't it?

Not necessarily. The Carillion thing

0:34:070:34:14

as come at an interesting time. It

has exposed in bold the kind of

0:34:140:34:21

suspicion we have had for some time,

which is that these PFIs are really

0:34:210:34:26

just a vehicle for private companies

to take public funding and not

0:34:260:34:32

deliver on the services that they

were supposed to do. It ends up

0:34:320:34:37

costing us more. It is in line with

a shift in public mood we have seen.

0:34:370:34:43

There is overwhelming support for

nationalisation across sectors, from

0:34:430:34:46

utilities to railways and actually

across politics. Conservative voters

0:34:460:34:53

favour nationalisation. It is no

wonder that we have this level of

0:34:530:34:58

discontent when we see something

like Carillion happen. Yes, it might

0:34:580:35:04

be difficult in the short term to

return some of those contracts into

0:35:040:35:08

public hands. But it is going to be

cheaper and more efficient and

0:35:080:35:11

better for everyone in the long

term, that much is clear.

Camilla,

0:35:110:35:17

do you think it is even possible to

impose these kinds of rules, the 20

0:35:170:35:22

to one pay ratio, four any company

with a government contract?

No. And

0:35:220:35:28

as Andrew Gilligan's piece in the

Sunday Times showed, a lot of these

0:35:280:35:32

ideological premises have no basis

in law whatsoever. Momentum has

0:35:320:35:38

suggested to Capp pay at £60,000.

What effect would that have on head

0:35:380:35:44

teachers in Haringey? The people in

Haringey did not vote for a

0:35:440:35:47

Momentum, they voted for Labour.

Haringey is a broad church. It takes

0:35:470:35:51

in top on one hand and Highgate on

the other. Our Momentum's policies

0:35:510:35:57

representative of the constituency

as a whole? No. It is deeply

0:35:570:36:01

worrying people are being deselected

by people with fanatical views. John

0:36:010:36:08

Landis man is hugely controversial

figure. He claims to be a Bastian of

0:36:080:36:13

socialism and socialist policies,

yet at the same time we have

0:36:130:36:19

discovered, and the Sunday Express

have had a lot of in-depth analysis

0:36:190:36:20

of his own finances, he recently

loaned £5,000 to his son's property

0:36:200:36:25

company, which in turn is charged

with franchising McDonald's outlets.

0:36:250:36:33

John Landsman is not here to defend

himself. Move on from that point.

0:36:330:36:41

Let me bring in Raphael first.

Haringey is emblematic of a wider

0:36:410:36:46

thing happening in the Labour Party.

You have got the NEC that met this

0:36:460:36:51

week, the first time since you had

more Momentum members elected.

0:36:510:36:55

Interesting to watch if it changes

the decisions they make. How

0:36:550:36:58

worrying will it be people to see

them getting involved in something

0:36:580:37:03

as local as the decisions in

Haringey?

Momentum is a complex

0:37:030:37:08

institution. It is not an

ideological phalanx or something

0:37:080:37:11

captured by the hard left. What is

very interesting about this is that

0:37:110:37:18

this is a tension within the left

and labour that predates Jeremy

0:37:180:37:21

Corbyn and Momentum. You have a

tension between people who would

0:37:210:37:28

start with a fixed idea of what it

means invincible to be on the left,

0:37:280:37:31

and people who take a slightly more

pragmatic view to

0:37:310:37:33

pragmatic view to get elected.

Broadly within the Labour Party at

0:37:350:37:37

the moment Jeremy Corbyn as won the

ideological argument. People have

0:37:370:37:41

been marginalised. The problem is

when you had the election last year

0:37:410:37:45

and labour did better than a lot of

people thought, including a lot

0:37:450:37:49

better than Jeremy Corbyn and John

McDonnell thought, something

0:37:490:37:53

switched and Labour thought, we can

do this, we can get into government.

0:37:530:37:57

Suddenly the pragmatic tendency

started to appear within the Corbyn

0:37:570:38:00

movement. The tension is not between

anti-Corbyn and pro Corbyn. It is

0:38:000:38:06

about how you sneak up power, not

alienate too many people. Can you

0:38:060:38:12

actually win, beat Theresa May and

get into government? That tension is

0:38:120:38:16

happening inside the head of Jeremy

Corbyn and John McDonnell. It is

0:38:160:38:19

happening inside the head of Jon

Trickett. We have to leave

0:38:190:38:22

Trickett. We have to leave that now.

0:38:220:38:23

It's coming up to 11.40 -

you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:38:230:38:27

Good morning and welcome

to Sunday Politics Scotland.

0:38:300:38:32

Coming up on the programme:

0:38:320:38:34

New allegations about

the Phil Gormley affair -

0:38:340:38:35

the Tories' Justice spokesperson

tells this programme

0:38:350:38:37

they are "absolutely extraordinary".

0:38:370:38:43

Could the Lib Dems be about to back

the Scottish Budget?

0:38:430:38:45

I'll be asking party

leader Willie Rennie.

0:38:450:38:47

And as austerity continues

to hammer council budgets,

0:38:470:38:49

could culture be the next victim?

0:38:490:38:51

We'll have a special

report from Stirling.

0:38:510:39:00

The loss to the city will be

enormous. Has ever heard of a city

0:39:010:39:05

without a museum? -- who has ever

heard?

0:39:050:39:13

The Scottish Police Authority was

set up to oversee Police Scotland

0:39:130:39:15

independently of Government.

0:39:150:39:18

Last November they reached

a unanimous decision to reinstate

0:39:180:39:20

the suspended Chief Constable Phil

Gormley.

0:39:200:39:22

He was informed, and press

releases drafted announcing

0:39:220:39:24

his return to work.

0:39:240:39:25

Then, following two meetings

with the Justice Secretary,

0:39:250:39:27

the chair of the Scottish Police

Authority changed his

0:39:270:39:29

mind and emailed board

members, recommending

0:39:290:39:30

the decision be "paused".

0:39:300:39:31

He also contacted Mr Gormley

on his way back to Scotland

0:39:310:39:34

at the time, and told

him not to come back.

0:39:340:39:36

MSPs are concerned about political

interference in the day-to-day

0:39:360:39:38

running of the police.

0:39:380:39:40

The Justice Secretary

Michael Matheson

0:39:400:39:41

insists he only asked essential

and pertinent questions.

0:39:410:39:45

So what happened in those

un-minuted meetings?

0:39:450:39:48

Was the chair of the SPA

made to change his mind?

0:39:480:39:52

It all came under intense scrutiny

at Holyrood this week -

0:39:520:39:55

firstly in Committee and then

in Parliament itself.

0:39:550:40:03

Did basically tell you at that first

or second meeting to change your

0:40:030:40:08

mind?

No, it was not that exquisite.

So why did you change our mind?

As I

0:40:080:40:15

said in my earlier answer, I think

that for the Chief Constable to

0:40:150:40:20

return it would be best that it was

in the most conducive situation

0:40:200:40:24

possible. If the Cabinet Secretary

was unhappy for reasons that I did

0:40:240:40:28

not understand, and what it was best

to try and resolve those issues

0:40:280:40:32

before he returned.

You were asked

earlier whether you felt that the

0:40:320:40:38

cabinet secretary was directing you

to stop the process. Will you accept

0:40:380:40:42

that if you look at that

objectively, it is quite difficult

0:40:420:40:45

not to conclude that you felt the

cabinet secretary was telling you to

0:40:450:40:52

stop this process?

I think direction

is a more formal term, and I could

0:40:520:40:57

not say that I had been directed.

The position I was in, I felt I was

0:40:570:41:03

at not in a position to move forward

with that decision.

You had no

0:41:030:41:08

choice but to pause the decision?

Yes.

Thank you.

It was called a

0:41:080:41:15

one-sided meeting and he felt he had

no choice but to reverse the

0:41:150:41:18

decision of his independent board by

changing his mind based on the

0:41:180:41:24

cabinet secretary being unhappy. So

the independent chair of an

0:41:240:41:28

independent body has two meetings

with the Justice Secretary where in

0:41:280:41:32

the first he has told he has made a

bad decision, and after the second

0:41:320:41:35

years left in no doubt that he had

to reverse it. Andrew Flanagan

0:41:350:41:40

clearly said he had not been

requested by the Justice Secretary

0:41:400:41:44

to change his decision, and he was

not directed to do so. Questions

0:41:440:41:47

were asked, and as I said, I

absolutely and of the view that the

0:41:470:41:53

Justice Secretary was right to ask

those questions.

0:41:530:41:58

Well, the Justice Secretary Michael

Matheson declined our invitation

0:41:580:42:00

to come on the programme,

so earlier I spoke with

0:42:000:42:03

the Conservative's Justice

Spokesperson Liam Kerr,

0:42:030:42:04

and the SNP's Ben Macpherson.

0:42:040:42:12

First of all, I am curious as to

what you make of these reports that

0:42:120:42:18

were in the Sunday Post this

morning, and I should briefly

0:42:180:42:22

explain what this is about. Kate

Frame, the police investigations and

0:42:220:42:26

review Commissioner, suggested that

the Government was trying to

0:42:260:42:31

interfere with her independence. It

was about to the publication of a

0:42:310:42:36

report on the Phil Gormley avail.

She claims that summoning the

0:42:360:42:39

Scottish Government was trying to

delay it. What did you make of that?

0:42:390:42:45

I found this extraordinary. These

are absolutely extraordinary

0:42:450:42:48

revelations. What they show is that

Government interference in

0:42:480:42:55

supposedly independent bodies,

trying to do an independent job, is

0:42:550:43:01

endemic throughout the system. But

it also shows is that there is a

0:43:010:43:05

wider issue of Government, because

we have seen John Swinney trying to

0:43:050:43:11

interfere in the named person

witnesses, or at any rate there are

0:43:110:43:15

delegations to that. This is showing

that this interfering is with

0:43:150:43:20

independent public bodies is endemic

throughout the Scottish Government.

0:43:200:43:24

In MacPherson, what do you make of

it? This is arguably more serious

0:43:240:43:29

than the allegations about Michael

Matheson. -- Ben MacPherson. He

0:43:290:43:35

could have said he hadn't interfered

in the timing and could be judged to

0:43:350:43:42

be irresponsible, given the

circumstances. This looks much more

0:43:420:43:46

on the face of it, if these e-mails

are accurate, like a straightforward

0:43:460:43:51

case of the Government trying to

interfere in the normal day-to-day

0:43:510:43:57

workings of someone who is supposed

to be an independent commissioner.

0:43:570:44:01

On issues important like this, it is

important to be rational and

0:44:010:44:04

reasonable. This is a story that has

broken this morning. There has not

0:44:040:44:10

been any Parliamentary time or

otherwise to look at it. What is

0:44:100:44:14

absolutely clear from the story in

the Sunday Post, and the statement

0:44:140:44:20

made by the park, is that no

incidents of Government interference

0:44:200:44:23

have taken place. Those are his

words rather than mine.

-- her

0:44:230:44:31

words. Only because she resisted.

Let me just read you what Kate

0:44:310:44:35

Frame, the piece to make sure in

review said, she said if these

0:44:350:44:41

e-mails are accurate, my perception

of your remarks is of governmental

0:44:410:44:45

interference with my independence.

That is a direct quote.

That was

0:44:450:44:49

correspondence to give the context

but a Government official. But as a

0:44:490:44:57

comment to the story, they have made

very clear that there had been no

0:44:570:45:02

incidents of Government

interference.

But again, I make the

0:45:020:45:07

point only because it would appear

that Kate Frame resisted them. She

0:45:070:45:11

herself is saying that the remark

she received from this fellow, who

0:45:110:45:19

is the deputy director of police

division of the Scottish Government,

0:45:190:45:23

were, and ever video game, my

perception is of governmental

0:45:230:45:25

interference. If this was the former

Labour Liberal Democrat

0:45:250:45:31

administration, and something like

this had happened, the SNP would be

0:45:310:45:34

all over it like a rash. Saying,

this is an absolutely outrageous

0:45:340:45:39

interference.

I am not going to

comment on that. I think it is

0:45:390:45:43

important that we look at this story

in the context of the days ahead,

0:45:430:45:46

the policing subcommittee that I sit

on the well perhaps want to take a

0:45:460:45:49

look at it. But what is very clear

to me today is that when asked to

0:45:490:45:55

react to this story, they have said

that there is no instance of

0:45:550:45:58

Government interference.

On the

other issue at stake, which is about

0:45:580:46:05

Michael Matheson, I am not quite

clear what your objections are to

0:46:050:46:08

what he did. I do think that the

substance of what he did, to stop

0:46:080:46:12

the return of Phil Gormley, was OK?

It is just the way it was done?

I

0:46:120:46:19

think it is interesting how you

phrase that. The substance of

0:46:190:46:22

Michael Matheson and interfere to

prevent the return of Phil Gormley.

0:46:220:46:26

The situation...

But was that wrong?

The issue here is that there was a

0:46:260:46:33

meeting to which the independent

chair of an independent body, the

0:46:330:46:37

SPAD, is called into, unannounced,

between the cabinet secretary and

0:46:370:46:45

the former SPAD chair. This is a

meeting that is an minuted. The

0:46:450:46:49

chair goes then, with a unanimous

board decision we heard in committee

0:46:490:46:53

last week, saying the situation of

Phil Gormley should be coming back

0:46:530:46:59

to work. He emerges a short time

later. From an an minuted meeting

0:46:590:47:03

with no notes, with an eight

different decision. Mr Matheson

0:47:030:47:09

would have us believe that he did

not play any part in that decision.

0:47:090:47:14

For all of the people, this is just

process. You seem to agree that he

0:47:140:47:19

was right to interfere and stop Phil

Gormley returning, or am I

0:47:190:47:26

misunderstanding you?

What you are

misunderstanding, if I may, if that

0:47:260:47:29

this meeting, if Michael Matheson

wished to interfere, he can do that.

0:47:290:47:33

What he does not have power to do is

just do it in a closed meeting.

Side

0:47:330:47:39

you are objecting to the process.

Michael Matheson makes the point

0:47:390:47:43

that if he had not intervened,

giving the people inside Police

0:47:430:47:47

Scotland had not been made aware of

the suburbs and return of Mr

0:47:470:47:51

Gormley, if he had not intervened

people like you would be screaming

0:47:510:47:55

that this was an appalling and that

the SNP Government was incompetent,

0:47:550:48:00

and that of course it was ministers

responsibility to stop a situation

0:48:000:48:04

like this are rising.

On the

contrary, what is appalling is that

0:48:040:48:08

if Mr Matheson is now saying that he

did intervene, which he previously

0:48:080:48:13

didn't, if he did intervene, then he

has to go through an appropriate

0:48:130:48:18

process, and that process involves

not waiting, apart from anything

0:48:180:48:22

else, for nine weeks to come before

Parliament and talk about what

0:48:220:48:27

happened in that meeting.

What is

your response to that, Ben

0:48:270:48:31

MacPherson? Again, I think he is not

quite say this, but the issue of

0:48:310:48:37

substance is conceded, but you

presumably could see the issue of

0:48:370:48:40

process, that he should have... The

meeting should have been minuted. He

0:48:400:48:46

should have towed -- told MSPs what

is going on.

It's important to

0:48:460:48:53

recognise there is an ongoing

statutory investigation with these

0:48:530:48:56

allegations. We should all be

mindful of that. What is clear, and

0:48:560:49:03

implicitly Liam Cooper has just

admitted, that the Cabinet secretary

0:49:030:49:08

was absolutely right to ask the

questions about the process in which

0:49:080:49:11

the decision of the SNP was made. --

Liam Kerr.

We don't have endless

0:49:110:49:21

time, what about the point of

process? He should have told what

0:49:210:49:25

MSPs was going on, and he should

have made sure minutes were taken.

0:49:250:49:28

We have just got people post like

word for what has happened. --

0:49:280:49:34

people post like word.

0:49:340:49:36

In terms of correspondent from the

Scottish Government, the Public

0:49:450:49:50

audit committee has received

correspondent detailing the fight

0:49:500:49:53

that the follow-on correspondent

that took place there after the

0:49:530:49:58

meeting was much more substantial

than any formal minute.

OK. Running

0:49:580:50:03

out of time. Liam Kerr, returning to

these e-mails to and from Kate

0:50:030:50:10

frame, the police investigation

commission, what do you think should

0:50:100:50:15

happen about this? What will you be

asking for?

I think first of all the

0:50:150:50:21

Cabinet Secretary needs to reflect

very carefully on events of the last

0:50:210:50:25

few months and indeed the debate

that to please in Parliament when I

0:50:250:50:30

cold on transparency. I would expect

that to be happening. There needs to

0:50:300:50:36

be a fool public enquiry. A public

enquiry? Into the SNP. The way

0:50:360:50:41

Nicola Sturgeon was my government is

conducting itself is losing

0:50:410:50:45

confidence from the public, hang on,

you cannot have a public enquiry

0:50:450:50:50

into the fact that you do not like

the SNP government, that is silly.

0:50:500:50:55

Of course not. I think we need a

filling quietly into what is going

0:50:550:50:59

on here.

Do you mean the

relationship between ministers and

0:50:590:51:07

independent bodies?

We need tact

transparency. There has been no

0:51:070:51:12

transparency throughout this

process. There has been no

0:51:120:51:15

transparency from the Cabinet

Secretary.

I am not quite sure why

0:51:150:51:20

you want an enquiry?

I wonder --

want an enquiry into transparency.

0:51:200:51:29

John Swinney is currently facing

allegations over a billion of

0:51:290:51:33

independent witnesses on the main

person -- named person enquiry.

What

0:51:330:51:39

do you want to happen specifically

about this Kate frame situation?

0:51:390:51:45

Will your committee be doing

anything about this?

That is a

0:51:450:51:50

question for our committee to

discuss. That will be for John

0:51:500:51:55

Finnie to take forward. That is not

a question I can answer at the

0:51:550:51:59

moment. This is an important matter.

It seems like you do not know what

0:51:590:52:05

to do about it.

We have seen a

headline this morning about how we

0:52:050:52:10

can take this matter forward. It

will be discussed in Parliament this

0:52:100:52:14

week. It is important that there is

a lot of sensational as from Liam

0:52:140:52:21

Kerr today. They have been proven

wrong and it has proven that the

0:52:210:52:26

Cabinet Secretary was right to act

the way he did. There has been

0:52:260:52:30

touring have Chrissy, it is about

time we got behind our police

0:52:300:52:33

service. -- hypocrisy.

I was

wondering how long it would take for

0:52:330:52:41

one of you to say you are not

backing the fleece. Thank you both

0:52:410:52:46

very much indeed.

0:52:460:52:46

Now, since we recorded that

interview, the Police Investigations

0:52:460:52:49

and Review Commission have confirmed

to the BBC that the emails

0:52:490:52:51

are genuine.

0:52:510:52:52

However, they insist that,

since the report came out

0:52:520:52:54

as scheduled, there was no actual

Government interference.

0:52:540:52:58

And in a statement,

the Scottish Government said:

0:52:580:53:00

"There have been no incidents

of Government interference,

0:53:000:53:02

and the release of the audit

document went ahead

0:53:020:53:04

within the planned timescale."

0:53:040:53:09

Now, since the SNP no longer has

a Holyrood majority, they depend

0:53:090:53:12

on support from at least one

of the other parties

0:53:120:53:14

to pass their budget.

0:53:140:53:16

It was thought that would

come from the Greens,

0:53:160:53:18

but could the Lib Dems be

about to outmanoeuvre them?

0:53:180:53:21

Well, let's find out,

because their leader, Willie Rennie,

0:53:210:53:23

joins me now from Dundee.

0:53:230:53:26

I know you are dying to talk about

the budget. Let's get your views on

0:53:260:53:33

this. The report which is at the

centre of these new allegations was

0:53:330:53:39

not about Phil Gormley, it was

apparently about procedures in

0:53:390:53:42

general terms, to do with cases like

Phil Gormley but it did not name

0:53:420:53:48

them. What do you make of these

relegations this morning and what

0:53:480:53:52

you think should be done about them?

-- revelations. The government is

0:53:520:53:57

developing an unhealthy culture of

intervention. If I was in the

0:53:570:54:03

Justice Secretary's position, I

would probably have made the same

0:54:030:54:07

cold because the circumstances about

Phil Gormley's return were not

0:54:070:54:11

right. That is not the centre of the

problem here. We have a

0:54:110:54:20

concentration of power within the

justice system. We have the Justice

0:54:200:54:23

Secretary, the chair of the police

authority and the Chief Constable.

0:54:230:54:28

Those three positions held by three

people, you do not have that

0:54:280:54:33

dispersed power, share power across

the country.

What about specific

0:54:330:54:38

allegations not about Kate frame but

with matters to do with keep

0:54:380:54:42

reading?

It is inevitable that you

get to circumstances like this

0:54:420:54:47

because the power is concentrated in

just three hands. That is why we

0:54:470:54:51

need to change the system to

disperse power because the Justice

0:54:510:54:54

Secretary is not tempted in the way

that he has inevitably he has been

0:54:540:54:59

on both those issues. It is

inappropriate to intervene in such

0:54:590:55:04

cases, but it is inevitable that it

happens because power is so close to

0:55:040:55:09

the Justice Secretary. He can

intervene so easily without telling

0:55:090:55:13

parliament, and that is why we need

to have an independent review of how

0:55:130:55:19

the police structure is operated. We

should -- believe it should be

0:55:190:55:22

changed.

Another dancing on the head

of a pinpoint, Michael Matheson

0:55:220:55:30

saying he did not interfere in the

return of Phil Gormley, but you

0:55:300:55:35

would accept that he intervened. It

is the difference between the two

0:55:350:55:39

words. This case

0:55:390:55:50

with Kater Frame and the delay of

the publication of a document. Would

0:55:520:55:58

you accept that something on that

last remark -- Kate Frame.

To be

0:55:580:56:05

honest I have not seen all the

detail on that. I think it is a

0:56:050:56:10

culture where the government seems

to readily interfering and

0:56:100:56:14

intervening in many cases like this.

Even if he didn't actually

0:56:140:56:19

interview, they did try to. I think

that is the kind of questions we

0:56:190:56:23

need to be asking. I think there

should be a statement to Parliament

0:56:230:56:27

on this issue this week and we need

to put an end to it.

The budget,

0:56:270:56:32

everyone's Patrick Harvey and the

Greens would come to the

0:56:320:56:36

government's rescue. Are you

galloping to the rescue instead?

0:56:360:56:43

Talks with Derek Mackay broke down

before Christmas on an important

0:56:430:56:47

issue for the Northern Isles on the

internal ferry services because

0:56:470:56:51

there was a promise that they had

made to fund the services to avoid

0:56:510:56:55

massive cuts to the lifeline

services and public services. They

0:56:550:56:59

withdrew that commitment that they

had made over many, many years and

0:56:590:57:03

then tried to strong arm is into

voting for the budget. There was a

0:57:030:57:09

breakdown of trust so we broke down

the talks as a result of that. There

0:57:090:57:13

is still time to the the damage and

that was done. We could talk to the

0:57:130:57:19

government, there is still time left

before we finalise the budget and

0:57:190:57:22

agree the budget, and we have powers

over education, that I have

0:57:220:57:28

explained to you before.

Is the

issue over the ferry is your red

0:57:280:57:34

line issue? If they conceded on that

you would fought with them?

That is

0:57:340:57:37

not the only issue we are voting

for. But the handled it, broke down

0:57:370:57:43

the trust between us and them we

have had in previous years. There

0:57:430:57:48

was a precondition before any talks

with the government, was that the...

0:57:480:57:52

But do you have any redline is

beyond that? On the face of it you

0:57:520:57:56

are seeing is a much more modest

amount than the demands that were

0:57:560:58:00

made by Patrick Harvey about, you

know, effectively about £200 million

0:58:000:58:06

worth of restoration cuts to

councils. It was a precondition for

0:58:060:58:12

further talks about the big issues

that we have been arguing for, about

0:58:120:58:16

investment in mental health,

investment up to £1.2 billion, but

0:58:160:58:24

also £500 million investment in

education for schools, nurseries and

0:58:240:58:28

colleges.

Those have been a priority

set out in our manifesto in 2016. We

0:58:280:58:33

put out these issues for discussion

and debate, we could not reach

0:58:330:58:38

agreement last year, I was hoping we

could beat agreement this year or

0:58:380:58:42

remove some weight on tax which will

raise more men of the. -- more

0:58:420:58:50

revenue.

I am slightly chuckling

here. Your phrase, what is a red

0:58:500:58:55

line? Could sum up the history of

the Liberal Democrats.

What I am

0:58:550:59:02

explaining here are the kinds of

things we want to see. We are not

0:59:020:59:06

the biggest party in parliament so

we cannot provide everything that we

0:59:060:59:11

want. We have put forward and

coherently a package of proposals to

0:59:110:59:17

transform the education system to

invest in that system, to boost the

0:59:170:59:21

economy. Because the economy hasn't

struggling in recent months

0:59:210:59:25

following the Brexit vote. We need

to make that investment to turn

0:59:250:59:29

around the economy, but we also need

to invest in mental health.

Those

0:59:290:59:33

are the things we would be happy

with. You had a clash with Nicola

0:59:330:59:39

Sturgeon, at First Minister's

Questions. You appear to be accusing

0:59:390:59:42

her of lying and there was a bit of

bad-tempered exchanges. Would you

0:59:420:59:48

like to withdraw that allegation?

I

accept what the presiding officer

0:59:480:59:54

has said about the use of language

in Parliament. You can understand my

0:59:540:59:58

frustration and strong feelings on

this issue when the First Minister,

0:59:581:00:03

in a debate that I was part of back

in 2016, when she gave assurance to

1:00:031:00:08

the question that she would be

standing up for the children's Ward

1:00:081:00:12

in Paisley. When she knew fine well

that it was a matter of discussion

1:00:121:00:16

and debate for the health board and

the community. She said to the

1:00:161:00:21

question, there are no proposals.

That is a politician's Ansa, she was

1:00:211:00:26

dodging it and she got round of

applause at the of her question and

1:00:261:00:32

her answer. The audience were

convinced she was going to stand up

1:00:321:00:35

for the ward. I think it is

inappropriate note to say it is the

1:00:351:00:39

doctors who forced her to make this

decision. I therefore think that

1:00:391:00:44

what she said back then was

misleading the parents of sick kids

1:00:441:00:48

in Paisley. That is why I felt so

strongly about the issue.

That is

1:00:481:00:53

just a difference of words. You have

swapped the word lying for a

1:00:531:00:58

misleading.

The presiding officer

has given it a ruling. I think you

1:00:581:01:03

know what I mean and you know how

strongly as I feel about this issue.

1:01:031:01:08

You are not withdrawing what you

said?

I have written to the

1:01:081:01:13

presiding officer, I have made it

clear I accept his judgment about

1:01:131:01:17

the language. But I feel incredibly

strongly about this issue. Because

1:01:171:01:22

the First Minister did mislead the

people of Paisley believing she was

1:01:221:01:25

quick to stand up for that ward and

I think those issues of integrity

1:01:251:01:30

are incredibly important.

This is

where you get to fit on your best

1:01:301:01:34

big smile. There is a full thing

that people want another referendum

1:01:341:01:41

on the EU? It is fantastic. You have

been saying that you have had

1:01:411:01:47

discussions with the SNP about your

position on having another

1:01:471:01:50

referendum. Have you had any

meetings?

Tavish Scott did have a

1:01:501:01:57

meeting and they are sitting on the

fence. I would rather they came of

1:01:571:02:01

that fence and back what is going in

popular position, to have a say on

1:02:011:02:08

the final outcome of the Brexit

deal. It would be sensible for them

1:02:081:02:11

to do that. I suspect they are a bit

too attracted to having an

1:02:111:02:17

independence referendum than backing

our proposal.

If polls in Scotland

1:02:171:02:21

swing to people saying they want

another independence referendum, we

1:02:211:02:25

will have the same big smile from

you and you will see, yes, bring it

1:02:251:02:30

on.

We rejected a bad deal three

years ago, I do not think we will

1:02:301:02:35

have another one.

Willie Rennie,

thank you very much.

1:02:351:02:38

Now, as local authorities

across Scotland battle

1:02:381:02:40

to balance their books,

is it inevitable that arts

1:02:401:02:42

and culture will lose out?

1:02:421:02:43

Stirling Council published dozens

of proposals this week aimed

1:02:431:02:45

at saving around £20 million over

the next five years.

1:02:451:02:48

Among the projects facing funding

cuts are the city's museum

1:02:481:02:50

and a children's orchestra.

1:02:501:02:51

The council is encouraging people

to get involved in its consultation

1:02:511:02:54

before any final decision

are made next month.

1:02:541:02:56

Katie Hunter reports.

1:02:561:03:04

One, two, three.

These women find

sunshine singing in the sterling

1:03:041:03:11

museum. The facility's funding could

be cut. Doctor Victoria McBurney

1:03:111:03:19

will be singing, says it is good for

people's health.

Cutting the arts is

1:03:191:03:28

a big mistake, it is a huge mistake

because the arts give us pleasure

1:03:281:03:33

and they encourage creativity. If we

do not have that, I really am fed up

1:03:331:03:39

sending people to psychology

departments and signing them offer

1:03:391:03:44

stress and trying to offer them some

help when they are saying, let's get

1:03:441:03:49

back to creators. If you would get

the first people to survive...

It

1:03:491:03:55

could lose almost a quarter of £1

million of council funding over the

1:03:551:03:59

next five years.

It was literally a

big...

The museum tells many stories

1:03:591:04:12

of Striling's bloody past, now it

faces a fight for the future.

We

1:04:121:04:19

have the world's oldest football,

world's oldest curling stone, the

1:04:191:04:26

War of Independence, you name it, we

have it. If it is about Striling, it

1:04:261:04:32

is here. And most of the city will

-- the laws of the city will be

1:04:321:04:36

enormous.

It isn't just the city's

museum facing cultural cuts, this is

1:04:361:04:48

the wrap Lough estate, home to a

project that aims to transform

1:04:481:04:53

children's lives through music. --

Raploch. Big noise has been behind

1:04:531:05:01

Major concerts in Scotland and

beyond. It works and some of

1:05:011:05:06

Scotland like most deprived

communities. It could lose £200,000

1:05:061:05:12

of funding by 2023, a worrying

prospect for families who take part.

1:05:121:05:18

Hannah, she is very musical, she

enjoys it very much so. It is

1:05:181:05:23

something she can do with her

friends as well, Hannah is quite

1:05:231:05:25

shy. When she wants to be. She comes

out shell and she is quite energetic

1:05:251:05:35

and I would not say loud, she is

very vocal when she comes to big

1:05:351:05:39

noise.

What is it you like about

playing the cello?

Because I didn't

1:05:391:05:45

want... I didn't want an oestrogen.

-- -- E string. I have played in

1:05:451:06:02

some... One of them I had... There

were a couple of big noise all

1:06:021:06:12

playing on stage. Did you play at

the Albert Hall? Yes.

Striling

1:06:121:06:24

council needs to save £23 million

over the next five years. It has set

1:06:241:06:27

out dozens of areas that could be

cut. The final decisions will be

1:06:271:06:32

made next month. The groups we spoke

to said they were sympathetic to the

1:06:321:06:37

challenges the council faces. The

leader says that they will not have

1:06:371:06:42

to close their doors.

Art and

culture are very important to

1:06:421:06:53

Stirling. We are determined to

maintain that in the city as we move

1:06:531:06:57

forward. What we have to look at,

are there any potential

1:06:571:07:02

efficiencies, any potential to

increase income? Is their ways that

1:07:021:07:07

we can improve the financial model

so that the council becomes less

1:07:071:07:15

exposed and we can create a more

sustainable model in terms of arts

1:07:151:07:18

and culture?

Back at the Stirling

Smith, the singers have moved into

1:07:181:07:26

the sunshine. And to coin a cliche,

they have made this on their own.

1:07:261:07:38

Don't take our Smith away.

1:07:381:07:44

Now it's time to take

a look back over events,

1:07:441:07:46

and forwards to those looming

in the week ahead.

1:07:461:07:48

Joining me now are two

journalists and broadcasters -

1:07:481:07:50

Lesley Riddoch and David Torrance.

1:07:501:07:56

Let's start with these new

allegations about the police, David

1:07:561:08:00

Ford. The Scottish Government insist

no actual interference happened.

1:08:001:08:03

Does that get them off the hook? On

the face of it, the e-mails try to

1:08:031:08:08

interfere, and evidence credit here,

it is to police investigations

1:08:081:08:12

Commissioner was turning up to it.

O'Shea the Scottish Government on

1:08:121:08:16

this, that there was no

interference, spectacularly misses

1:08:161:08:21

the point, as the e-mails clearly

show there was a an

attempt, not the

1:08:211:08:28

first time he has been in the news

incidentally. As you say, the

1:08:281:08:33

Commissioner has had a clear no to

that attempt. An attempt to

1:08:331:08:40

influence the timescale, not a musty

conclusions. But it is yet another

1:08:401:08:45

example of civil servants going

beyond their remit and behaving

1:08:451:08:51

quite politically.

Why do they do

things like this? Would it not be

1:08:511:08:55

better to just not bother? The

report came out and it was not much

1:08:551:08:59

of a fuss about it.

I bothered to

look back at what the complete audit

1:08:591:09:05

said, and it baffles me about

journalism in Scotland that we end

1:09:051:09:09

getting so hung up on these

particular personal details when

1:09:091:09:14

really there is some substantial

points in that. Not enough

1:09:141:09:18

explanation on how the SBA, who are

meant to be the watchdog for the

1:09:181:09:25

police, the standards authority.

There was no information or

1:09:251:09:28

explanation about how they reached

decisions, the average time to

1:09:281:09:33

resolve something is excessive. The

public having to produce evidence

1:09:331:09:36

regarding complaints is not

appropriate. There is no guidance

1:09:361:09:39

about whistle-blowing. That would

worry me as a... That is the framing

1:09:391:09:44

of our police system.

There clearly

was on the face of it, and we know

1:09:441:09:51

these e-mails are genuine, an

attempt by the Scottish Government

1:09:511:09:55

to say, could you delay this?

Having

looked at that, they seem to be

1:09:551:10:00

suggesting that you can actually

find a different way that is less

1:10:001:10:03

public to resolve this instead are

published yet. Before the big

1:10:031:10:08

investigation that is going on it to

the Chief Constable. I don't know

1:10:081:10:11

whether that really washes very

well, but I also don't know how long

1:10:111:10:16

this interest in the quite

pernickety business of these details

1:10:161:10:21

of timing will continue. I don't

know that Michael Matheson's jacket

1:10:211:10:25

is a shaky peg.

This seems to be

dragging on for ever. There is now a

1:10:251:10:32

big row surrounding Police Scotland.

Obviously that does not affect

1:10:321:10:37

policing on a day-to-day level, but

surely this has to be sorted out and

1:10:371:10:43

quickly.

It does. Having written a

couple of articles about Police

1:10:431:10:48

Scotland myself when of its

considerable worry about the control

1:10:481:10:50

room is not responding properly to

urgent calls, there is also worries

1:10:501:10:54

about 40-50 stations being closed.

It is overcentralised, and I

1:10:541:11:01

completely agree with Willie Rennie,

there is not the underpinning of any

1:11:011:11:05

local accountability. Because I used

to be able to be the one that hired

1:11:051:11:09

and fired chief constables, now they

are way beyond reach and that system

1:11:091:11:12

is one that the Scottish Government

set up, a lot of police on the beat

1:11:121:11:17

want to see and broken back up into

34 units.

David, could Willie Rennie

1:11:171:11:25

gallop to the rescue on the Scottish

budget? The significance of what he

1:11:251:11:30

was saying, his commands I say more

moderate than the demands of last

1:11:301:11:35

Sunday, Patrick Harvie on this

programme basically demanding tens

1:11:351:11:39

of millions of pounds. It was less

clear that Willie Rennie is

1:11:391:11:44

demanding that.

It was clear in that

interview that Willie Rennie was

1:11:441:11:48

trying to keep the negotiations

giving, on that front. I suspect he

1:11:481:11:53

is pushing an open door. I have

spoken to some SNP MSPs, one who'd

1:11:531:11:59

used the phrase about finding a new

dance partner, which I thought was

1:11:591:12:03

quite amusing. In relation to those

budget negotiations, and a lot of

1:12:031:12:08

nationalist find the Greens quite

tricky to deal with. I think Willie

1:12:081:12:11

Rennie is probably aware of that.

The interesting thing is that it is

1:12:111:12:15

a reminder that this is a menorah to

Government, and it often gets

1:12:151:12:18

overlooked. In the first term, back

in 2007, there was this sort of

1:12:181:12:24

dance that took place quite

frequently over the budget

1:12:241:12:27

negotiations.

Your referendum,

Jeremy Corbyn this morning on

1:12:271:12:33

television was absolutely adamant

that Labour will not back another

1:12:331:12:39

poll.

The poll was showing a

majority of a second referendum, but

1:12:391:12:43

when you break it down, Labour

voters, young people and Scots are

1:12:431:12:47

the three groups who support for

domain has increased.

It also showed

1:12:471:12:54

that there might be a tiny majority

for domain, but certainly not enough

1:12:541:12:58

that could be changed.

I wrote

something about this myself, do not

1:12:581:13:06

go for a second referendum, because

this was an advisory referendum,

1:13:061:13:09

every time that a referendum takes

place our Parliamentary sovereignty,

1:13:091:13:14

you weaken an already weakened idea

in British politics. The MPs need to

1:13:141:13:18

stand up and do something here. You

look at the Midlands, the big areas

1:13:181:13:24

that were in favour of leaving, it

is still so.

If Jeremy Corbyn is

1:13:241:13:30

saying no and the Conservatives are

saying no, it is not a runner.

The

1:13:301:13:35

SNP have made noises in favour of

it, but they are still not gone as

1:13:351:13:39

far as backing it.

Willie Rennie's

meetings do not seemed getting far.

1:13:391:13:44

I think the point is salient. The

figures show a chef, I wonder how

1:13:441:13:49

strongly voters actually feel about

the idea of a second referendum.

As

1:13:491:13:54

they rank it? Other things like the

NHS are more important.

They might

1:13:541:13:59

say yes if boost, but do they at

least feel strongly about it? I

1:13:591:14:02

suspect not.

1:14:021:14:04

That's all from the us this week.

1:14:041:14:06

I'll be back on Wednesday

with Politics Scotland.

1:14:061:14:08

Until then, goodbye.

1:14:081:14:16

Sarah Smith and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Sarah is joined by Conservative MP Theresa Villiers, Brexit minister Lord Callanan and shadow Cabinet Office minister Jon Trickett MP. On the political panel are journalist and commentator Rachel Shabi, political columnist for The Guardian Rafael Behr and Sunday Express political editor Camilla Tominey.


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