21/01/2018 Sunday Politics Scotland


21/01/2018

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LineFromTo

Morning, everyone, and welcome

to the Sunday Politics.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

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And this is your essential briefing

to everything that's happening this

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morning in the world of politics.

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Big fines for bosses who take

bonuses from firms with black holes

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in their pension funds -

will the Prime Minister's promise

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help the Government get

back on the front foot

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after the collapse of Carillion?

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reform if they obstruct the passage

of the EU Withdrawal Bill.

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Arch-remainer Lord Adonis

says that's their job.

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We'll bring the MP

and the peer together.

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Henry Bolton fights to save his job

after a week of damaging headlines

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about his relationship

with a 25-year-old model.

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We'll be talk to

the Ukip leader live.

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Will it be his last

interview as party leader?

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And on Sunday Politics Scotland,

Scottish Labour leader

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Richard Leonard joins me live

in the studio to discuss his

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plans to turn around

the fortunes of his party.

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And with me today, our regular

gaggle of experts providing

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the inside track on all the big

stories - Tom Newton Dunn,

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Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

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First this morning, Theresa May

is proposing what she's

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calling tough new rules

to penalise company executives

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who try to line their own pockets

by putting their workers'

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pensions at risk.

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"An unacceptable abuse,"

she says, "that will end."

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Her comments come as the Government

attempts to seize the initiative

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after the collapse of the giant

construction, services

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and out-sourcing company, Carillion,

which went into liquidation

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on Monday with debts

of around £1.5 billion.

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One of Britain's biggest

construction firms, Carillion,

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has been put into liquidation.

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20,000 workers face

an uncertain future.

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Carillion employed people providing

essential services in our schools,

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hospitals, railways and prisons.

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They had to be told they would be

paid when they turned

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up to work on Monday.

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Let me be clear that all employees

should continue to turn up to work

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confident in the knowledge

that they will be paid

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for the public services

that they are providing.

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The firm had around 450

contracts with government,

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on top of private work

and overseas projects.

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Some of those had been handed

to the company after it issued

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profit warnings last year.

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Prime Minister, why were contracts

awarded to Carillion

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despite the warnings?

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Labour and the unions

wanted answers.

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Why did the Government

not heed the warnings?

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Why did they continue to give

billions of pounds of contracts

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to a company that the City

were backing against in 2013?

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That's the real question.

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And it's emerged the firm's former

chief executive, Richard Howson,

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who left the firm last year,

received £1.5 million in pay

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and bonuses in 2016,

while many ordinary employees face

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the prospect of being laid-off

and a huge black hole

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in the company's pension scheme

could result in their

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pensions being slashed.

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Subcontractors who hadn't been paid

for weeks were warned they might get

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just 1p for every pound

they are owed.

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Some warned that they too

might go to the wall.

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We are not really a business

of a size that can trade

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through that without some form

of support from the Government.

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If it's not forthcoming, I think

ourselves and lots of businesses

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like us will probably go

out of business.

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In the wake of the collapse...

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For Labour though, this was not just

about the failure of one company.

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By Monday night, Jeremy Corbyn had

taken to social media.

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At Prime Minister's Questions,

he pressed the point home.

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This is not one isolated case

of government negligence

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and corporate failure.

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It is a broken system.

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Virgin and Stagecoach's management

of East Coast Trains,

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Capita and Atos' handling

of disability assessments,

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and security firm G4S's failure

to provide security at the Olympics

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were all examples, according

to Jeremy Corbyn, of the private

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sector failing the public sector.

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These corporations, Mr Speaker,

need to be shown the door.

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We need our public services

provided by public employees

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with a public service ethos

and a strong public oversight.

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As the ruins of Carillion lie

around her, will the Prime Minister

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act to end this costly racket?

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Theresa May pointed out

it was the Blair and Brown

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partnership deals and she suspected

there was something else behind

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the current Labour leadership's

hostility to the private sector.

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But what Labour oppose isn't just

a role for private companies

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in public services but the private

sector as a whole.

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This is a Labour Party that has

turned its back on investment,

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on growth, on jobs.

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A Labour Party that will always put

politics before people.

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So, under a Labour government,

how far would their

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nationalisation plans go?

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Would every binman, builder

and even bankers have to be

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employed by the state?

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Carillion's collapses the big story

of the week and it will continue to

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have political consequences I will

talk through now at the panel. Tom

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Newton Dunn, presumably the caps of

Carillion has prompted this promise

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from Theresa May that she will

punish bosses who continue to take

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bonuses when they have black holes

in the pension fund, is this

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something new?

This is our

expectation, the Prime Minister has

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acted dramatically as a response to

the collapse of Carillion last week.

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The problem as I recall a party

conference speech she gave in

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October, 2016, the citizens of

nowhere, calling out a rotten

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corrupt apples across the country

then, Philip Green who presided over

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the collapse of BHS, leaving a

massive pensions black hole, an

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entire year and a bit has passed and

no apparent government action. I

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fear Theresa May with the bold words

in the new look Observer this

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morning, action today, still action

tomorrow.

It is what people want to

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hear?

Certainly people do want to

hear it, although they are amazed it

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has not happened before. Jeremy

Corbyn is playing this beautifully.

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There is a much more worrying bigger

picture here for the Conservatives.

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The opportunity they have created

for Jeremy Corbyn to underline his

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case that unfettered free markets do

not work and somehow or other

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Carillion symbolises everything that

is wrong about the system, as we

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heard him say in the clip. I do not

think most voters are particularly

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ideological, they just want things

to work. But if the Government is

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seen to be incompetent on this

scale, it creates a vacuum for the

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leader of the Labour Party to put an

ideological spin on it and he is

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doing it very effectively.

The Prime

Minister is right when she says more

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of these PFI contracts were signed

under Blair and Brown than under

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subsequent Tory governments, but now

you have a Jeremy Corbyn Labour

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Party in opposition, they do not

have to shoulder the blame for that?

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Jeremy Corbyn oppose them at the

time. The late 1970s in reverse,

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that is what we are seeing. Bowman

the minority Labour government being

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torn apart. Now we have a minority

Conservative government being

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challenged by tidal waves which put

challenged by tidal waves which put

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them on the defensive all the time.

We have not time to go through other

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examples, but just on this one,

Theresa May is quite well equipped,

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as Tom said, from the beginning, she

taught the language of intervention

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and corporate governments, coming

after the bad people in the private

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sector, but because of the lack of

action to follow it up and because

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Jeremy Corbyn genuinely believes in

these things, it is much easier for

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him to swim with these tidal waves

than her lead in this deeply

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pressurised minority government.

We

have been talking to all three of

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you through the programme, let us

pick up on Carillion with the Shadow

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Attorney General, Labour's Shami

Chakrabarti. Labour have been very

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critical of the Government's

response to the collapse of

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Carillion, what would Labour have

done differently this week if you

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had been in government?

I think what

we would do and what we will do, as

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soon as we are in government, is

look in a far more fundamental way

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at PFI, outsourcing, and by the

way...

We will get on the principles

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of this, but if you had won the

election in 2017, it would have been

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a Labour government handling the

collapse, what would have been

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different in your response?

We would

not have left it so late, we would

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not have bailed out a company that

already had raised serious warning

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signals in the City, we would not

have allowed them to get into

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subcontracting with, for example,

Cerco, worth millions of pounds,

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profit warnings against that company

too.

Cerco are a big government

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provider, should they be looking at

all of their contracts with the

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likes of Cerco who have also issued

profit warnings?

You do have to look

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at all of the arrangements and the

subcontracting arrangements. It is

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not because I am ideological leap

opposed to the private sector, it

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will be smaller private sector

companies suffering from nonpayment.

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Should the Government help? The man

running the small business in the

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film saying they might go to the

wall.

Quite possibly. But with

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accountability. It is all very well

for Mrs May to say she will sting

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the big executives, there has to be

ministerial responsibility as well.

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One of my concerns is that when

vital public services of a kind

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almost constitutional, for example,

prisons, get contracted out, what

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you are actually devolving as

ministerial responsibility,

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something goes terribly wrong, in a

vital utility, a matter of security,

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infrastructure, and ministers, of

whatever colour, put up their hands

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and say, it is wicked executives.

What we need is ministerial

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responsibility, oversight, of course

we want a thriving private sector,

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but some vital services need to be

run by public servants and with

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ministers held to account.

Sometimes

when you hear Labour Shadow

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ministers talking, it sounds as

though they want to take absolutely

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everything back into public

ownership.

That is not the case. I

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believe in a mixed economy and I

know my colleagues do too but there

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are times when some things need to

be in public hands. That will

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include on constitutional grounds

talking about people's human rights,

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basic security, and it will also

mean sometimes when you have a big

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organisation and outsourcing is used

to grind down the working conditions

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of some workers and break down the

sense of community solidarity.

Where

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is it appropriate for private

contracts?

For example, there are

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some things that the private sector

probably does better. When you're

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running a police force, you are

unlikely to say, we will make the

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motorbikes for the police officers

better than BMW. Maybe you will but

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I doubt it will happen any time

soon.

You need to look at this. What

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about cleaning in offices and police

stations? Should that be run by the

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police or outsourced?

Maybe

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stations? Should that be run by the

hospitals are better example because

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cleanliness in a hospital is quite

often a matter of life and death.

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Sometimes it is better even for

something that seems not a core

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service like claiming to be in

public hands. You need to look at

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this on a case-by-case basis.

You do

not have many examples of where it

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is appropriate for private companies

to be involved. Prisons and

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probation, what about catering in

prisons, does that have to be in

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public hands?

What you want to do is

look at the quality of the service,

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the quality of the conditions, for

the people working there, and to see

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what would be best value for the

public and for the public purse. It

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is not ideological, but in some

cases, principles are at stake.

We

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are left with the problem here of

workers worried about pensions,

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working for Carillion and

subcontractors who might not get

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paid. If the Government work to talk

about putting taxpayers' money into

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helping out those people or those

companies, would the Labour Party

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object?

We would want to look at the

conditions of spending public money?

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In principle? It is not the fault of

the subcontracting small companies

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they will not get paid.

Indeed, but

if you decide to spend public money,

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for example, to help the smaller

businesses, you want accountability

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in response. You

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in response. You might well want to

legislate to give priority to

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pension funds, for example, over

shareholders who have not done their

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job of corporate governance in these

cases.

Moving on to talk about

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something else, if you don't mind,

the serial six attacker, this time

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last week we were sitting here

talking about the fact the Justice

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Minister said he would launch a

judicial review and now he will not

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because it has little chance of

succeeding. Should the Government be

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pursuing a judicial review?

My view

at the time, I held my tongue about

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it because I am used to politicians

wading in in a knee jerk way when

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there is a case of this kind, my

view is that if there is to be a

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judicial review of the parole board

decision, the best person to bring

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such a review would be a victim

because the chances are their best

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arguments would be under the Human

Rights Act which gives rights to

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victims and not to politicians.

Crowdfunding attempt to raise money

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to do that perhaps?

If the Justice

Secretary wants to make a name for

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himself with this as a new Justice

Secretary, he might better give his

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attentions to making sure the people

have decent levels of legal aid so

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they can vindicate their rights

under the Human Rights Act. In

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relation to the case of John Worboys

and the crisis of public confidence,

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that it is in danger of creating, we

could do with an end review of the

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whole case, from the moment a young

woman

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woman went to the police and was not

believed to the moment this release

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decision was made arguably with the

lack of transparency and involvement

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of victims.

He was prosecuted for

offences against 12 women and we

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know there were almost 100 other

women who came forward. The CPS said

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there was not enough evidence and

they cannot revisit that decision,

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if there was not enough evidence

then, there will not be enough now.

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I am not second-guessing the

particular CPS decision is because I

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am not in a position to do that but

there are issues for the whole

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system from the moment that a woman

went to the police and was not

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treated with the respect she

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treated with the respect she

deserved, to victims.

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Kier Starmer was director of

prosecutions at the time and he said

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he didn't have any involvement in

the decision-making behind it.

Nor

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did his predecessor.

But he should

have done, shouldn't he? He has

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prosecuted for only 12 cases, the

DPP should be involved in that.

My

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argument is this whole

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story on this whole case and the

numbers of women involved and

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frankly the anxiety this decision

has caused to women who weren't even

0:16:470:16:50

victims means there needs to be an

end to end review of how the system

0:16:500:16:53

has worked in this case, from the

moment a woman went to the police

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and was arguably not believed in was

made without the input of victims

0:16:550:16:58

who I would expect to be given

notice and the opportunity to make

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representations to the parole board.

There's a story running in the

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Sunday Times this morning about

Momentum and saying they are trying

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to deselect 50 Labour MPs. The fact

of the matter is whether have been

0:17:050:17:11

Parliamentary selections, momentum

candidates have... Do you think

0:17:110:17:18

actually the Parliamentary Labour

Party should better

0:17:180:17:25

Party should better reflect Jeremy

Corbyn's Labour Party?

Momentum is

0:17:250:17:28

not prioritising the selection of

some candidates over others. They

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are part of the Labour movement that

has always had various strands

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within it. What is exciting to me is

not exciting to the Sunday Times,

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fair enough, but we have a

Democratic party becoming more

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democratic. I...

There is still a

massive disconnect between those who

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sit in Parliament and those who have

joined since Jeremy Corbyn became

0:17:570:18:00

leader.

I think these things become

exaggerated. I have noticed people

0:18:000:18:12

uniting around purposes, not least

the scandal around Carillion. I

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don't really spot this red Menace in

the way other people do. It's a

0:18:150:18:21

democratic party, and most popular

movement of about 600,000 people and

0:18:210:18:25

I think that something to be

optimistic about.

Thank you for

0:18:250:18:30

talking to this morning.

0:18:300:18:36

Momentum haven't been that

successful so far.

I think it has

0:18:410:18:46

been overblown on the basis of the

evidence. You quoted the procedure

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is taking place so far, they haven't

prevailed that often and in the

0:18:500:18:54

Sunday Times this morning they

resorted to the example of Haringey

0:18:540:18:58

Council where there are a lot of

specific local issues. At this point

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it is unclear whether the selection

will become the overwhelming theme

0:19:040:19:07

over the next few years in the

Labour Party. It might do but the

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evidence so far is it is much more

nuanced than some papers are

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suggesting.

Three new Momentum

members on the NEC this morning, is

0:19:160:19:23

it going to make a difference do you

think?

A huge difference because

0:19:230:19:29

Corbyn and his wing of the party can

now do precisely what they want, as

0:19:290:19:32

long as they have the union muscle

behind them during conference votes,

0:19:320:19:37

then the party and any which way he

wants to run it is his. I disagree

0:19:370:19:42

with Steve, the difference in

language Jeremy Corbyn and his close

0:19:420:19:47

associates were using after the NEC

elections this week on mandatory

0:19:470:19:53

reselection is, Shami wasn't asked

if she believed in them, Rebecca

0:19:530:19:59

Long-Bailey was, and they refused to

rule them out and say they were a

0:19:590:20:06

bad thing. In my view, it is without

doubt that Corbyn will at some stage

0:20:060:20:14

try to reshape the Parliamentary

party more in his image and you may

0:20:140:20:19

argue why should he not do that.

Shami was saying the party is much

0:20:190:20:26

more united around Jeremy Corbyn and

when we see a story like Carillion

0:20:260:20:31

it is easier for him to get the

backing of the Parliamentary party.

0:20:310:20:37

I think that's right. How unpleasant

and ugly and divisive is it to have

0:20:370:20:42

the story is out, whether or not

they are completely accurate or

0:20:420:20:47

whoever is briefing, I think it

looks very bad on the atmosphere of

0:20:470:20:51

the Parliamentary party. Where I do

think Shami has a good point is on

0:20:510:20:56

the size of the Labour membership.

600,000, the Conservatives can only

0:20:560:21:01

dream of getting a fraction of

0:21:010:21:08

dream of getting a fraction of this,

so clearly there is a big problem

0:21:130:21:14

for the Tory party there in matching

what Labour is doing.

We should ask,

0:21:140:21:17

mandatory reselection for Labour

MPs, are you in favour, Shami?

Any

0:21:170:21:21

democratic process should be across

the board and for everyone. Where

0:21:210:21:24

MPs are doing a good job, including

working with their membership, and

0:21:240:21:29

you have to work with your

membership to get the vote out in

0:21:290:21:33

the Labour Party, that relationship

works well and I think that

0:21:330:21:36

relationship will only work better

into the future. I have been all

0:21:360:21:41

over the country to all sorts of

CLPs campaigning, and you would be

0:21:410:21:49

surprised at the number of places

where there is a very happy

0:21:490:21:52

relationship between the MP and the

party regardless of the particular

0:21:520:21:57

strand they come from.

Thank you for

that.

0:21:570:22:00

Now, the Government's flagship

Brexit legislation -

0:22:000:22:01

the EU Withdrawal Bill -

hasn't always had the easiest

0:22:010:22:04

of times in the House of Commons,

but this week, MPs voted to send it

0:22:040:22:07

through for consideration

in the House of Lords.

0:22:070:22:09

A number of peers having expressed

concern about the so-called Henry

0:22:090:22:12

VIII powers the bill grants

to ministers to make changes to some

0:22:120:22:15

laws without parliamentary scrutiny.

0:22:150:22:16

And of course, a number

of peers are dismayed

0:22:160:22:18

about the process of Brexit itself.

0:22:180:22:20

So, are we likely to see more

dramatic attempts to change

0:22:200:22:23

the Bill in a chamber full

of unelected lawmakers?

0:22:230:22:25

Ellie Price has been

taking their temperature.

0:22:250:22:29

Stop Brexit!

0:22:340:22:37

You'd think a bill that sought

to enshrine EU law into British law

0:22:370:22:40

after Brexit would be popular

with the pro-Remain

0:22:400:22:42

crowd in Parliament.

0:22:420:22:43

But when the Withdrawal Bill cleared

the Commons this week,

0:22:430:22:47

one Tory Remain-supporting MP said

he hoped the House of Lords would

0:22:470:22:49

make an enormous amount of changes.

0:22:490:22:53

Good lord, what are they up to?!

0:22:530:22:57

I think what will happen

is that the Government will suffer

0:22:570:23:00

a series of defeats,

which will reduce the power

0:23:000:23:03

of ministers to do things

without proper scrutiny,

0:23:030:23:07

and put in place a sensible series

of votes - both in Parliament

0:23:070:23:11

and the people at the end

of the process - so that when we do

0:23:110:23:14

get an end point to Brexit,

people can say that it's

0:23:140:23:17

been done properly.

0:23:170:23:22

So a second referendum

is on the table?

0:23:220:23:24

It's definitely on the table.

0:23:240:23:25

You would expect a Lib Dem

to say that, but some Tory

0:23:250:23:28

peers want changes too.

0:23:280:23:32

If it comes to the situation

where it looks as if what people

0:23:320:23:35

voted for cannot be delivered,

then we have to decide how

0:23:350:23:38

best to move forward.

0:23:380:23:42

I don't believe the House of Lords

is trying to block Brexit at all.

0:23:420:23:46

I think what the House of Lords

is doing is its constitutional duty.

0:23:460:23:51

So anyone hoping the House of Lords

will deliver a fatal blow to Brexit

0:23:510:23:54

will be disappointed,

but so too will anyone hoping

0:23:540:23:58

that the Withdrawal Bill will come

out of there unchanged.

0:23:580:24:01

So what is all the fuss about?

0:24:010:24:05

The extent of the Government taking

powers to itself while giving

0:24:050:24:08

powers to Parliament,

Henry VIII powers, this issue,

0:24:080:24:10

of course, about the kind

of protections we've had under EU

0:24:100:24:12

law that we've contributed

to for consumer protection,

0:24:120:24:15

workplace protection,

environmental issues,

0:24:150:24:19

they are coming into UK law

and that's what this bill does

0:24:190:24:23

but it needs to make sure they're

protected in UK law; they can't just

0:24:230:24:26

be overturned the next day.

0:24:260:24:27

There has to be a mandatory

process to do that.

0:24:270:24:30

But this was the reaction when some

elected MPs over in the Commons

0:24:300:24:33

voted against aspects

of the Withdrawal Bill,

0:24:330:24:35

causing a government defeat.

0:24:350:24:38

One of their own colleagues even

talked of treachery.

0:24:380:24:41

Another MP, Jacob Rees-Mogg,

this week said the laws would face

0:24:410:24:45

reform if it tried to frustrate

the democratic will of the people.

0:24:450:24:49

So is the chamber full of unelected

Remainers playing with fire?

0:24:490:24:54

Since I've been leader

in the House of Lords,

0:24:570:24:59

for just over two years,

what I've found is every time

0:24:590:25:02

someone doesn't agree

with something we're doing,

0:25:020:25:04

they will get quite

hysterical about "take

0:25:040:25:05

away their powers," it's almost

an off-with-their-heads moment.

0:25:050:25:09

But you know, there is quite

prescribed powers we do,

0:25:090:25:11

we take them seriously

and responsibly, and,

0:25:110:25:15

we will send them back

to the House of Commons.

0:25:150:25:19

And even one of the lesser-spotted

Brexit-supporting

0:25:190:25:21

Lords isn't worried.

0:25:210:25:22

There are a number of lords

are in cahoots with Messrs Tusk

0:25:220:25:25

and Juncker in trying to persuade

the British people that they made

0:25:250:25:28

a grave mistake when they voted

to leave Brexit, and I have no doubt

0:25:280:25:31

they will have a bit

of fun doing that.

0:25:310:25:34

But on the big issues,

like whether we should

0:25:340:25:36

have a second referendum,

the Lords voted by a majority

0:25:360:25:38

of more than 200 against that last

year; or if you look at the Commons

0:25:380:25:42

vote where the majority was over 200

against remaining in the single

0:25:420:25:45

market and the customs union,

I think the Lords will look

0:25:450:25:47

to the elected House and do

what they're good at,

0:25:470:25:50

which is to consider the detail.

0:25:500:25:52

Of course, one of the biggest

differences between the Lords

0:25:520:25:55

and Commons is the presence

of nearly 200 crossbenchers -

0:25:550:25:58

members who aren't in a party

and don't take the whip,

0:25:580:26:01

and they include some

of the most distinguished legal

0:26:010:26:03

minds in the country.

0:26:030:26:04

And debate over the bill's

constitutional implications may well

0:26:040:26:06

lead to more than one showdown

with the Commons.

0:26:060:26:10

It's worth remembering

that the Corporate Manslaughter

0:26:100:26:15

and Corporate Homicide Bill went

back and forth between the two

0:26:150:26:17

Houses seven times only a few years

ago, and that was just an aspect

0:26:170:26:21

of the criminal justice system,

it wasn't about the biggest decision

0:26:210:26:24

this country is taking since 1945.

0:26:240:26:29

So I think people need to be

a little bit relaxed about that.

0:26:290:26:34

Like the MPs on the Green

benches of the Commons,

0:26:380:26:41

the Lords on their red benches

agreed to trigger Article 50.

0:26:410:26:46

But the Lords, like the Commons,

is split on what Brexit

0:26:460:26:48

should actually look like.

0:26:480:26:51

There may be some toing and froing,

or ping-pong as it's known around

0:26:510:26:55

here, but pretty much everyone

agrees the Lords can't

0:26:550:26:59

and won't block the bill,

and it will go through,

0:26:590:27:01

probably, by the end of May.

0:27:010:27:05

Ellie Price reporting.

0:27:050:27:09

by the MP Jacob Rees-Mogg.

0:27:090:27:12

This week he was elected

chair of the influential

0:27:120:27:15

European Research Group,

made up of Brexit-backing

0:27:150:27:17

Conservative backbenchers.

0:27:170:27:18

And in the studio, we're

joined by Andrew Adonis.

0:27:180:27:23

He's a Labour peer who resigned

from his role as a Government

0:27:250:27:28

adviser last month over

its Brexit strategy.

0:27:280:27:32

Lord Adonis, you have made your

opposition to Brexit clear, recently

0:27:320:27:37

describing it as a national list

spasm that can be stopped. Do you

0:27:370:27:41

think the EU Withdrawal Bill is the

opportunity to stop Brexit?

I agree

0:27:410:27:47

this is the biggest decision the

country will take since 1945. I do

0:27:470:27:53

not think the Lords can stop it,

this is an issue for the people. It

0:27:530:27:57

started with the people in a

referendum and my view is the final

0:27:570:28:01

sites should go to the people. The

critical issue over the coming

0:28:010:28:05

months will be the relationship

between the House of Lords and the

0:28:050:28:08

House of Commons in seeing people

have the final say.

When you say

0:28:080:28:12

people have the final say, you are

talking about a second referendum?

0:28:120:28:18

The first referendum on Mrs May's

terms on departure of the EU, not a

0:28:180:28:24

rerun of the referendum two years

ago because when we have that we

0:28:240:28:27

didn't know what the terms would be.

We are a democracy, we engage the

0:28:270:28:33

people, this is the biggest decision

since 1945 and the people should

0:28:330:28:37

have the final say.

Let me bring in

Jacob Rees-Mogg on that, you are

0:28:370:28:43

confident we will have a Brexit deal

that will look attractive to most of

0:28:430:28:48

the electorate so presumably you

wouldn't be too worried about the

0:28:480:28:51

second referendum on the terms of

the deal?

I think the ambition of

0:28:510:28:55

the Lords in putting forward a

second referendum is to try to stop

0:28:550:29:00

tax it, and Lord Adonis has been

clear about that. He said only

0:29:000:29:04

yesterday he wanted to delete all of

the clauses of the Withdrawal Bill.

0:29:040:29:09

We have had a referendum, then a

general election where both main

0:29:090:29:12

parties backed the referendum

results. I think if somebody wants a

0:29:120:29:17

second referendum they should win a

general election first, campaigning

0:29:170:29:21

for one, rather than getting

unelected peers to use it as a

0:29:210:29:26

stratagem to obstruct Brexit. It is

noticeable Lord Adonis and others

0:29:260:29:29

have not called for a second

referendum on other things

0:29:290:29:37

referendum on other things like the

Scottish vote.

Lord Adonis, you have

0:29:390:29:42

sent you will make the Government's

life an absolute misery over the EU

0:29:420:29:45

Withdrawal Bill which sounds as if

you are using it as a stick to beat

0:29:450:29:48

a policy or a decision you don't

like rather than your real role

0:29:480:29:54

which is legislative scrutiny.

There's a huge amount of scrutiny to

0:29:540:29:57

do. The powers which ministers are

given in this bill is without

0:29:570:30:01

precedent in a single piece of

legislation, they have order making

0:30:010:30:05

powers over the whole sphere of

legislation that was previously

0:30:050:30:09

enshrined in European law so if the

House of Lords doesn't pay attention

0:30:090:30:12

to that it's not doing its job.

Coming back to Jacob's remarks,

0:30:120:30:17

Jacob himself has been a

0:30:170:30:23

supporter of the second referendum.

In the House of Commons in 2011 he

0:30:310:30:33

himself set out a case for a

referendum on the terms of departure

0:30:330:30:36

from the European Union if the

electorate voted first time around

0:30:360:30:38

to set the process in train. Jacob

is contradicting his own position.

0:30:380:30:42

You are shaking your head, Jacob

Rees-Mogg.

0:30:420:30:48

That is simply inaccurate. There was

a proposal for a referendum to begin

0:30:480:30:52

a process of negotiating

nonmembership, to give them a

0:30:520:30:56

mandate, and he would come back with

what he achieved, and there would be

0:30:560:31:01

a referendum on the result. The

Prime Minister decided to have a

0:31:010:31:05

straightforward referendum, in or

out. Lord Adonis is speaking about

0:31:050:31:11

discussion before the referendum

terms were set, then they were set,

0:31:110:31:15

everyone knew what they were voting

for, to leave the EU, it was clear

0:31:150:31:19

that meant leaving the single market

and the customs union. I put a dent

0:31:190:31:24

Lord Adonis, he would not be calling

for a second referendum had Remain

0:31:240:31:31

won.

That is completely untrue. We

did not know what the terms were.

0:31:310:31:35

The Conservative manifesto for the

election before said we would stay

0:31:350:31:38

in the single market. These are

Jacob's words, in the House of

0:31:380:31:45

Commons, in 2011, it might make

sense to have the second referendum

0:31:450:31:49

after the renegotiation is

completed...

He says he is talking

0:31:490:31:53

about Cameron's renegotiation that

he went to before.

Exactly the same

0:31:530:31:59

principle applies now. We are seeing

the terms Mrs May is coming back

0:31:590:32:02

with, it is absolutely right that

people should have a safe and it

0:32:020:32:05

should not be Jacob Rees Mogg and

Brexit ideologues deciding what the

0:32:050:32:09

terms are.

The difficulty with this

is that people decided in a

0:32:090:32:18

referendum, the general election

manifestos of both parties committed

0:32:180:32:20

to carrying out the result of the

referendum, if Lord Adonis wants to

0:32:200:32:24

put his case forward, he should try

to stand for election, something I

0:32:240:32:28

do not think he has ever done, win a

general election campaigning to

0:32:280:32:33

reverse the result. Unelected peers

should not try to frustrate the will

0:32:330:32:37

of the British people, as now

expressed in two Democratic votes.

0:32:370:32:41

On that, you have been issuing some

veiled threats this week, saying the

0:32:410:32:45

House of Lords would get into

difficulties if they try to

0:32:450:32:49

frustrate Brexit, what do you mean

by that?

I think what Baroness Smith

0:32:490:32:53

is saying is very sensible, the

House of Lords will abide by the

0:32:530:32:58

Constitutional conventions, it will

look to revise, I have concerns

0:32:580:33:01

about some of the Henry

0:33:010:33:03

to get Brexit through without the

people the final say. He is dodging

0:34:000:34:01

the issue because nobody is talking

about the House of Lords asserting

0:34:010:34:04

itself against the people. The issue

which it will come down to resist

0:34:040:34:09

the House of Lords invites the House

of Commons, Jacob and his

0:34:090:34:13

colleagues, themselves to reach a

decision again on the issue of

0:34:130:34:15

whether they should have a

referendum on the final terms. It is

0:34:150:34:21

not anti-democratic, it is the

proper expression of democracy and

0:34:210:34:24

the House of Lords. It is something

which Jacob himself has supported in

0:34:240:34:29

the past, no longer convenient for

him to recognise that fact, but

0:34:290:34:33

people's past does catch up with

them. Nigel Farage has come to

0:34:330:34:39

support a referendum on Mrs May's

Brexit deal because he realises it

0:34:390:34:45

is inevitable. As people realise the

gravity of this decision and the

0:34:450:34:49

fact Parliament itself is not in a

great place to take it because there

0:34:490:34:52

has been a referendum. The case for

a referendum on Mrs May's terms will

0:34:520:34:58

be unstoppable and the House of

Lords will play an important

0:34:580:35:01

democratic role in inviting the

House of Commons to reach a decision

0:35:010:35:05

on that.

Jacob Rees Mogg, it would

be ironic if the British

0:35:050:35:08

constitution is working its way with

the House of Lords making its

0:35:080:35:12

revisions sending it back to the

Commons, for you to argue against

0:35:120:35:16

that, when what you wanted was for

us to take control back of our own

0:35:160:35:21

government.

I am all in favour of

taking back control and decisions

0:35:210:35:25

being made in the House of Commons

with the Lords acting as a revising

0:35:250:35:29

Chamber. You have to understand the

motives, they are trying to obstruct

0:35:290:35:34

Brexit. Lord Adonis said the

decision to leave for is as big a

0:35:340:35:39

mistake as appeasement in the 1930s,

almost hysterical reaction to the

0:35:390:35:46

Brexit decision, and they are using

it as a strategy to frustrate

0:35:460:35:50

Brexit. What they should do is not

used the unelected Lords but they

0:35:500:35:54

should campaign in a general

election if they have to campaign to

0:35:540:35:57

do it as the Labour Party notably

didn't in 2017, to call for a second

0:35:570:36:02

referendum and reverse the result,

but they do not have the courage

0:36:020:36:05

because they know the British people

are not with them.

One slightly

0:36:050:36:08

different thing before we finish,

are you excited the buyer tapestry

0:36:080:36:13

is coming to Britain, you don't

think it is maybe a bit cheeky of

0:36:130:36:16

the French celebrating something to

a celebrating the Norman victory

0:36:160:36:21

over the British?

-- Bayeaux

tapestry. I think it is a splendid

0:36:210:36:31

gesture. We could send them a

fragment of the union Jack from

0:36:310:36:35

Nelson's ship at Trafalgar to remind

them that by and large we win the

0:36:350:36:42

battles.

Some people have suggested

we send Jacob but Bayeaux tapestry

0:36:420:36:49

is much more recent in its views.

On

the big issue of Brexit... We will

0:36:490:36:54

have to leave it there, Jacob Rees

Mogg, Lord Adonis, thank you for

0:36:540:36:57

that.

0:36:570:36:59

And you can find

more Brexit analysis

0:36:590:37:01

and explanation on the BBC website,

at bbc.co.uk/Brexit.

0:37:010:37:03

It's coming up to 11.40am.

0:37:040:37:05

You're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:37:050:37:10

Good morning, and welcome

to Sunday Politics Scotland.

0:37:100:37:13

Coming up on the programme:

0:37:130:37:14

The Scottish Labour leader

0:37:140:37:15

Richard Leonard joins me live

in the studio to talk

0:37:150:37:18

about his plans to turn around

the party's fortunes.

0:37:180:37:21

Patrick Harvie tells me that the SNP

must reverse council cuts before

0:37:210:37:24

the Greens will back the Scottish

Budget.

0:37:240:37:32

And private money helped

to build new schools

0:37:320:37:34

and hospitals across the UK,

but amid the controversy and fallout

0:37:340:37:36

from Carillion's collapse,

is it time for a rethink?

0:37:360:37:46

For every hospital or school built,

we have paid for three.

0:37:460:37:50

Since 1999, Scottish Labour has had

as many different leaders as Italy

0:37:500:37:52

has had prime ministers.

0:37:520:37:55

In the same period, they have gone

from coalition government

0:37:550:37:57

to the third party of Holyrood.

0:37:570:38:00

Among its former leaders,

one resigned after calling himself

0:38:000:38:03

a "muddler," another stepped down

describing it as a "branch party,"

0:38:030:38:06

and its last leader, Kezia Dugdale,

made it clear her party's internal

0:38:060:38:09

politics were fractious.

0:38:090:38:17

That was before she headed to

Australia to take part in a game

0:38:170:38:20

show.

0:38:200:38:20

Its latest leader, it's fair to say,

is about as far away from celebrity

0:38:200:38:24

as it's possible to get,

but after a few months in the job,

0:38:240:38:27

is he wanting to get out of there?

0:38:270:38:29

Well, let's find out.

0:38:290:38:30

You haven't had enough, have you?

Absolutely not, I have only just

0:38:300:38:34

begun!

Let's talk about Europe, Neil

Finlay, at your Brexit spokesperson,

0:38:340:38:40

says a second referendum on EU

membership cannot be ruled out. You

0:38:400:38:44

have responded by saying you think

it is more likely that the Tories

0:38:440:38:48

will lose a vote on the final deal

and they will be a general election

0:38:480:38:53

at which you presumably hope Labour

will sweep to power, and when Labour

0:38:530:38:58

sweeps to power, it should do what

exactly about the EU?

It depends

0:38:580:39:04

what stage the negotiations have

reached. My scenario is that I think

0:39:040:39:10

the deal forged by to reason me,

David Davies, Boris Johnson, will be

0:39:100:39:14

an insufficient one to satisfy the

demands of the people of this

0:39:140:39:19

country and the elected

representatives of this country, so

0:39:190:39:23

I can see there being a voting down

of the deal which will precipitate

0:39:230:39:28

an election.

And Labour would argue

in that election campaign and once

0:39:280:39:31

it wins it, in your view, for what,

staying in the single market and the

0:39:310:39:36

customs union?

We have made clear we

think it is important that access,

0:39:360:39:41

tariff free access to the single

market is important, because we have

0:39:410:39:46

said our priority is jobs, and the

economy, but also things like

0:39:460:39:56

environmental protection, consumer

protection and workers' rights,

0:39:560:39:57

which we want to see safeguarded in

a post Brexit UK.

Does that mean you

0:39:570:40:01

are in favour of being in the

customs union for example?

There is

0:40:010:40:04

a compelling case for being in the

customs union, in the sense that

0:40:040:40:09

that would certainly provide us with

a tariff free trading area to be a

0:40:090:40:16

part of, so I think that has an

appeal to it, but...

It is not

0:40:160:40:22

Jeremy Corbyn's view. The whips

towed Labour to vote recently

0:40:220:40:26

against a proposal to

there are

issues around the timing of issues

0:40:260:40:30

being taken and there was a

proposition put to Parliament which

0:40:300:40:37

was too premature, and that was why

the Parliamentary Labour Party...

0:40:370:40:42

Not just Jeremy Corbyn but Kia

Starmer... They took a decision not

0:40:420:40:47

to vote for that amendment.

Your

view of the customs union. What

0:40:470:40:51

about the single market?

I am

appealing for us to have access to

0:40:510:40:57

the single market.

You are saying

stay in the customs union, what

0:40:570:41:00

about staying in the single market?

Membership of the single market

0:41:000:41:04

would bring with it difficulties

because there would be a membership

0:41:040:41:09

fee to pay, and we would be in a

situation where we would presumably

0:41:090:41:13

be a member of the single market but

without full membership rights to

0:41:130:41:17

decide what the rules of the single

market worth.

You are against that?

0:41:170:41:22

I don't think it is an advantageous

position.

A poll in the Observer

0:41:220:41:27

this morning said 56% of likely

Labour voters want Labour to back

0:41:270:41:31

staying in both the single market

and the customs union. Why so

0:41:310:41:34

resistant to backing staying in the

single market?

Because I think there

0:41:340:41:39

has been a referendum in which the

voice of the people has been heard,

0:41:390:41:42

and I have consistently said I don't

think it is the place for

0:41:420:41:48

politicians to stand in the wake of

the decision taken by the people,

0:41:480:41:51

and I would apply that to the 2016

referendum and also the 2014

0:41:510:41:57

referendum in Scotland.

OK. In what

wait... Fine, if you come out and

0:41:570:42:03

Jeremy Corbyn comes out in favour of

the customs union, which he hasn't

0:42:030:42:07

done yet, but as of now, in what way

is your position different from the

0:42:070:42:12

Tories?

Well, let me give you an

example. Just before Christmas, to

0:42:120:42:17

reason me was asked whether the

working time directive would be

0:42:170:42:23

incorporated and continued in UK law

after Brexit -- the Prime Minister

0:42:230:42:27

was asked. She refused to answer.

The easiest way of doing that is to

0:42:270:42:32

stay in the single market, by the

way.

It is currently UK law because

0:42:320:42:36

it has been transposed from the

European directive as regulations in

0:42:360:42:41

UK law. Theresa May could simply say

we will maintain this provision

0:42:410:42:44

which provides for working people

are right to paid holidays and a

0:42:440:42:48

limitation on the amount of working

time they have to spend each week

0:42:480:42:53

and each month.

The Scottish

Government wants powers over

0:42:530:42:56

immigration after we leave the EU,

it says Scotland has economic issues

0:42:560:42:59

which means we need it. Would you

back them in that?

I have an open

0:42:590:43:04

mind on whether there needs to be a

distinctive immigration policy for

0:43:040:43:08

Scotland. When we were in power in

the Scottish parliament, Labour

0:43:080:43:14

introduced a fresh talent initiative

which was a recognition that they

0:43:140:43:18

needed to be a nuanced approach to

migration in Scotland, and that

0:43:180:43:23

wasn't just about...

So you might be

in favour of further immigration

0:43:230:43:29

powers?

I can see there being a case

to be made for a power of variation

0:43:290:43:35

for the Scottish context. It could

also be a power which incidentally

0:43:350:43:39

could be extended to London, Wales

as well.

OK. Nicola Sturgeon said

0:43:390:43:47

this week she will make a decision

later this year whether to hold

0:43:470:43:50

another independence referendum. If

she does, the British government

0:43:500:43:53

will certainly tell her she cannot

have one at least until after the

0:43:530:43:57

next Scottish elections. Would you

back the British government in that?

0:43:570:44:02

It is not a case of whether about

the British government. I am there

0:44:020:44:08

to represent the interests of the

Scottish Labour Party, and we have

0:44:080:44:11

been absolutely clear that we do not

see the case within a matter of a

0:44:110:44:15

couple of years for a second

independence referendum. The people

0:44:150:44:20

were asked in 2014 and they gave a

very clear answer, so I am firm on

0:44:200:44:24

the question of whether they should

be a second independence referendum.

0:44:240:44:28

They should not be, there is no case

for it.

Nicola Sturgeon says she has

0:44:280:44:33

a mandate from the manifesto of the

2016 Scottish elections and that

0:44:330:44:39

runs until 2021, and the issue is

that she should have... I know you

0:44:390:44:44

are against the referendum, but the

Scottish Government should have the

0:44:440:44:47

right to call one, that's what I'm

asking about.

She put before the

0:44:470:44:52

Scottish Parliament in the spring of

last year the proposition that they

0:44:520:44:57

should be a second independence

referendum, and that sparked a real

0:44:570:45:02

polarisation of opinion in Scotland.

I have never witnessed... I have

0:45:020:45:06

never witnessed since the days of

Margaret Thatcher a political leader

0:45:060:45:10

so divisive because of that call she

made for a second independence

0:45:100:45:15

referendum, and that's why I think

the SNP have been forced to row back

0:45:150:45:19

on it.

If the SNP say they will have

a new referendum and the British

0:45:190:45:22

government says no, from the side of

it -- sound of it, you support the

0:45:220:45:33

British government.

It is not a case

of being one side of the British

0:45:330:45:35

government, I am opposed to it

because I cannot see sufficient

0:45:350:45:38

material change to call for the

second referendum, when it was

0:45:380:45:40

undertaken that it would be a once

in a generation opportunity for

0:45:400:45:42

people to vote. I think we need to

move on from the Scottish

0:45:420:45:46

independence referendum question.

In

a budget debate last week called by

0:45:460:45:50

your own party or finance spokesman

denounced what he called was £700

0:45:500:45:54

million of cuts to councils planned

in the Scottish Budget. But when he

0:45:540:45:59

was asked to explain how you,

Labour, would raise £700 million in

0:45:590:46:03

the addition to the money you would

get by putting taxes up, he didn't

0:46:030:46:11

have a clue. Can you enlighten us?

We will enlighten you and the rest

0:46:110:46:15

of the people of Scotland in the

course of the next ten days. The

0:46:150:46:21

stage one debate on the Scottish

draft budget takes place a week on

0:46:210:46:26

Wednesday. What I can say to you

this morning is that we will

0:46:260:46:29

undertake to put forward our plans

on how we would...

What are they,

0:46:290:46:34

why is it a secret?

It is not

entirely secret. I have been on

0:46:340:46:39

record as saying I think the

additional penny on the top rate of

0:46:390:46:43

income tax is a woefully timid

approach. There needs to be a much

0:46:430:46:48

more ambitious approach to the top

rate of taxation. It was no secret

0:46:480:46:53

in 2016 manifesto, we said the top

rate ought to be 50p in the pound,

0:46:530:47:03

so that I think is a reasonable

proposition.

Are you still in favour

0:47:030:47:06

of a penny on the basic rate? That

is not Corbin's policy but that of

0:47:060:47:09

Scottish Labour till you became

leader. Do you still support that or

0:47:090:47:11

would you prefer to do what Corbin

wants to do, put all the onus on

0:47:110:47:17

higher rate taxpayers?

Without

revealing too much in advance of our

0:47:170:47:22

announcement, the number of high

wealth individuals in Scotland is

0:47:220:47:26

less than in other parts of the UK,

or less than the UK as a whole, so

0:47:260:47:32

it is our empirical observation that

we simply cannot look alone to

0:47:320:47:37

people on the top rate of earnings

to fill the whole of that gap. But I

0:47:370:47:41

have also said as well that...

I am

completely confused. You are saying

0:47:410:47:46

you are in favour of a penny on the

basic rate?

No, I'm saying we need

0:47:460:47:56

to look beyond simply the top rate

of income tax. One thing I think is

0:47:560:47:59

worth examining is the case for a

wealth tax. We have set up a tax and

0:47:590:48:02

investment commission to look at

that as an idea because one of the

0:48:020:48:07

features of the society we live in

has been a massive increase not just

0:48:070:48:12

in income inequality but wealth

inequality, and it is duty bound on

0:48:120:48:17

us as a party in favour of

redistribution and equality to

0:48:170:48:21

address that question of wealth

inequalities.

Kezia Dugdale, you

0:48:210:48:26

reprimanded her for going to

Australia to appear in a game show.

0:48:260:48:30

She appears to have kept £40,000 of

the £45,000 she received from that,

0:48:300:48:35

the other £5,000 to charity. If and

when you are on Quickly Come Dancing

0:48:350:48:41

would you give the proceeds to

charity or the party, and you think

0:48:410:48:46

she should have done?

That is

hypothetical because there is no

0:48:460:48:49

chance of me appearing on any

celebrity programme!

You can give me

0:48:490:48:54

the real answer now, do you think

you should have given the money to

0:48:540:48:57

charity or the party?

That it is a

decision for there to make and

0:48:570:49:01

people will judge her based on that.

Richard Leonard, don't rule yourself

0:49:010:49:06

out!

Have you seen me dance?

Maybe

the nation wants to see you dance!

0:49:060:49:11

We have to leave it there, thanks

very much.

0:49:110:49:15

The collapse of the construction

firm Carillion seems to have

0:49:150:49:17

polarised politics in a way not seen

since the 1980s, with Labour

0:49:170:49:20

championing public ownership

and the Conservative government

0:49:200:49:22

standing up for the benefits

of free enterprise.

0:49:220:49:24

In truth, all governments,

not least the Scottish Government,

0:49:240:49:26

have been happy to benefit

from shiny new schools and hospitals

0:49:260:49:28

funded by the private sector.

0:49:280:49:30

But as the National Audit Office

pointed out this week,

0:49:300:49:32

there's little evidence that PFI

contracts represent good value

0:49:320:49:34

for money, often leaving

the taxpayer paying billions more

0:49:340:49:36

in the form of repayments.

0:49:360:49:39

In a moment, we'll discuss

whether it really is a case

0:49:390:49:42

of "public good, private bad",

but first, here's Graham Stewart.

0:49:420:49:51

The artist impression of how the

three companies see a bridge which

0:50:020:50:08

would span the distance to the

island and are revealed. Now they

0:50:080:50:10

will be doing the sums before

submitting a tender which will need

0:50:100:50:14

to design, build and operate than

pay for the bridge. It was the first

0:50:140:50:25

major Government project funded by

the Private Finance initiative.

0:50:250:50:28

Built at a cost of £20 million by

the mother group. Like all five

0:50:280:50:33

companies they wanted their money

back and when tolls were charged a

0:50:330:50:39

public protested, forcing the then

Scottish executive to buy out the

0:50:390:50:42

bridge contract for more than the

bridge costs to build in the first

0:50:420:50:45

place. Nearly three decades on and

private finance is just as

0:50:450:50:56

controversial. This week the

construction giant Carillion into

0:50:560:50:59

liquidation after that lost money on

big Government contracts and run up

0:50:590:51:01

huge debts. It is partly responsible

for projects such as the Aberdeen

0:51:010:51:07

bypass and its collapse threatens

thousands of jobs across the UK.

0:51:070:51:11

That rekindled an age-old debate in

the Commons this week.

These

0:51:110:51:17

corporations need to be shown the

door. We need our public services

0:51:170:51:24

provided by public employees with a

public service ethos and a stronger

0:51:240:51:29

public oversight. As the ruins of

Carillion lie around her, will the

0:51:290:51:34

Prime Minister act to end this

costly racket of the relationship

0:51:340:51:40

between Government and some these

companies?

What Labour opposes not

0:51:400:51:45

just a role for private companies

and public services but the private

0:51:450:51:49

sector as a whole. The vast majority

of people in this country in

0:51:490:51:55

employment are employed by the

private sector. But the Shadow

0:51:550:51:59

Chancellor calls business is the

real enemy.

But when in power,

0:51:590:52:07

Labour were even more enthusiastic

about the Private Finance initiative

0:52:070:52:11

than the Conservatives as the former

Health Secretary under Gordon Brown

0:52:110:52:14

explained this week.

Each choice we

were given was the wrong one,... The

0:52:140:52:22

Treasury...

I was a Treasury

official, they have never liked PFI.

0:52:220:52:30

Who told you you had to do it that

way? Was it Gordon Brown of the

0:52:300:52:36

Treasury?

It was both.

David is

banging on about politics again.

The

0:52:360:52:52

SNP Government have been happy to

take credit for schemes funded by

0:52:520:52:54

private finance.

What have the SNP

Government ever done for us?

The

0:52:540:53:02

belt or do not skills, 750.

Remember

who the schools used to be...

You

0:53:020:53:12

skills may be modern but been

concerns over loading standards ever

0:53:120:53:16

since Mrs Elliott fell from an

Edinburgh primary. A total of 17

0:53:160:53:22

schools across the city were forced

to close. This exposed some of the

0:53:220:53:27

flaws of privately funded schemes.

By the cash for the buildings

0:53:270:53:34

consist Ali expensive new schools or

hospitals but as the watchdog

0:53:340:53:39

pointed out, private companies

borrow at a higher rate of interest

0:53:390:53:42

and that can end up costing the

taxpayer millions of pounds more

0:53:420:53:45

over the coming decades.

For every

hospital or school built we pay for

0:53:450:53:52

three. So instead of having three

hospitals and three schools, we're

0:53:520:53:59

actually only getting one. That is

what a bad deal this is for the

0:53:590:54:01

public.

One junior minister in the

last Labour Government concedes with

0:54:010:54:07

hindsight that some deals did not

offer value for money but says the

0:54:070:54:11

private sector should not be

demonised.

Some companies go bust

0:54:110:54:15

and others do well. Canadian is a

private company that has happened to

0:54:150:54:18

have gone bust, the vast majority

are doing well. I can think of some

0:54:180:54:25

one by councils in Scotland to

England 1990s did not quite go bust

0:54:250:54:29

because they were part of the local

council but they had massive

0:54:290:54:32

mismanagement and financial

problems.

The private sector's will

0:54:320:54:38

in the running of the deal raises

under scrutiny. The Scottish

0:54:380:54:41

Government has floated the idea of

the public sector bid for ScotRail.

0:54:410:54:47

One transport union has predicted

that the lead to an immediate 6%

0:54:470:54:50

drop in fields. Others are not so

sure.

The total amount taken by any

0:54:500:54:56

of the franchise operators in

Britain as between 2.5% to 3%. The

0:54:560:55:02

margins are very very tight. Those

politicians who think they can

0:55:020:55:06

transform the industry by

redirecting those profits into

0:55:060:55:14

reducing fears will be disappointed.

Jeremy Corbyn pots Labour Party

0:55:140:55:20

would bring private rail companies

back into public ownership as well

0:55:200:55:23

as ending the private finance

initiative. There are calls for the

0:55:230:55:29

current Government to operate a

level playing field between private

0:55:290:55:32

and public sectors.

It needs to open

the books on PFI, there should be no

0:55:320:55:37

hiding behind commercial confidence.

And the high interest rates and the

0:55:370:55:45

returns to investors.

On a clear day

the splendour of the Skye Bridge is

0:55:450:55:54

there for all to see but when it

opened in 1995 the Government

0:55:540:55:59

stopped the ferry service, granting

the consortium that built the bridge

0:55:590:56:04

a monopoly to charge tolls. 20 years

on opponents of private finance say

0:56:040:56:10

all they want is transparency.

0:56:100:56:12

That was Graham Stewart reporting.

0:56:120:56:13

Joining me now from Aberdeen

is the SNP's Gillian Martin,

0:56:130:56:16

and in Edinburgh is the Conservative

Jamie Halcro Johnston.

0:56:160:56:23

Before we get into a debate on this,

I know your constituency contains

0:56:230:56:33

the Aberdeen bypass, as far as you

an awareness everyone going to keep

0:56:330:56:36

their jobs and not be completed on

time?

There has been no more update

0:56:360:56:43

on that since earlier in the week

when actually Balfour Beatty and the

0:56:430:56:51

other part of the consortium are

looking to work with the

0:56:510:56:58

administration people over how they

will finish the contract. They are

0:56:580:57:02

going to finish the contract they

said they will, and they are going

0:57:020:57:04

to I hope employ those that are may

lose their jobs as a result of

0:57:040:57:13

Carillion. It still needs to be

built and to the deadline they set

0:57:130:57:18

and it still has to be built to the

deal that was made. That is ongoing.

0:57:180:57:26

Jeremy Corbyn says private companies

doing public contracts should be

0:57:260:57:30

shown the door. Do you agree?

The

private companies should be shown

0:57:300:57:35

the door? No, because you are

conflicting, we do not have PFI in

0:57:350:57:42

Scotland, we have put in place that

you would have a non-profit capping

0:57:420:57:48

on private companies so it is

considered a different situation,

0:57:480:57:52

and that is the situation with the

high pass, they have a commitment to

0:57:520:57:56

deliver that in budget and on time

and that is what is different from

0:57:560:58:02

situations in a list of the UK.

So

PFI is bad, PFI renamed by the

0:58:020:58:08

Scottish Government is good?

I do

not think it is a case of renaming

0:58:080:58:13

it, it is completely different. It

is better value for money for one

0:58:130:58:17

thing is and that is a cap on

profits which there was not with

0:58:170:58:20

PFI. Some of the things in the

report are conflicting court is

0:58:200:58:23

going on in the rest of the UK with

Scotland.

The National Audit Office

0:58:230:58:29

produced a report this week,

previous reports have been a bit

0:58:290:58:34

ambiguous, they say it depends on

the project but this was a blanket

0:58:340:58:37

finding that PFI projects were not

good value for money for the public.

0:58:370:58:41

If you look across the study of PFI,

that the number of very important

0:58:410:58:48

projects that have been delivered

because of it and it is a role for

0:58:480:58:51

private sector finance within these

projects but we recognise that there

0:58:510:58:58

are concerns around costings and

flexibility of some of the contracts

0:58:580:59:01

and also the opaque nature of some

of these contracts that is why it's

0:59:010:59:07

critical we get more transparency

within that process. Also looking

0:59:070:59:13

forward to that when these contracts

are being negotiated, a renegotiated

0:59:130:59:16

in some cases, the effort is made to

ensure that local authorities...

0:59:160:59:24

Would you accept the argument that

PFI contracts and the Scottish

0:59:240:59:32

Government's non-distribute of

contacts, there's no commonality

0:59:320:59:35

between them?

I'm not sure if that

is no commonality but we try to

0:59:350:59:42

ensure that local authorities and

other public bodies that are

0:59:420:59:48

involved in accessing private

finance as part of these contracts

0:59:480:59:52

are not held to ransom. Anything

that can be done to improve that is

0:59:520:59:56

obviously very welcome. One of the

issues that has come up is

0:59:561:00:01

transparency, they can be very

opaque and that is why from a UK

1:00:011:00:04

Government point of view they have

done a lot of work ensuring they

1:00:041:00:10

meet their commitments to make these

contracts more transparent, whether

1:00:101:00:13

that is ensuring they have included,

liabilities and included are,

1:00:131:00:19

Government accounts are publishing

data so that people can make a

1:00:191:00:23

choice.

The other side of this is

because so many contracts have

1:00:231:00:31

either been PFI of this

nondestructive model that the

1:00:311:00:33

Scottish Government has introduced,

don't we tend to forget that

1:00:331:00:40

straightforward contracts with the

Government raises money and build

1:00:401:00:43

things like the Scottish Parliament,

can be vastly overbudget and it is

1:00:431:00:47

the public who have to take the rap

when they have overbudget so there

1:00:471:00:53

are advantages to these private

contracts?

That is the difference

1:00:531:00:56

between PFI and the other model that

you describe, nonprofit distribution

1:00:561:00:59

model. It is a case again...

And a

PFI the private companies take the

1:00:591:01:08

that as I was saying the Scottish

Government was the public who took

1:01:081:01:14

the that.

The difference now is we

do not have that model so we do not

1:01:141:01:17

have a situation of the cost of

something major would be completely

1:01:171:01:25

and utterly runaway costs that

they're not have...

And PFI

1:01:251:01:29

contracts they are not run away, as

is the private companies that take

1:01:291:01:34

responsibility.

PFI does not exist

in Scotland any more. The applicant

1:01:341:01:37

with a different model and do not

forget we have the Scottish

1:01:371:01:40

investment banks being set up so we

are looking at refining the model

1:01:401:01:44

even warmer other part of the jigsaw

in place which could mean a deal

1:01:441:01:48

difference to how things are built

in Scotland.

Thank you.

1:01:481:01:53

The consensus once again this year

is that the deal the SNP Government

1:01:531:01:56

does to get its budget

through Holyrood will be

1:01:561:01:58

done with the Greens.

1:01:581:01:59

So what will that party get

in return for such crucial support?

1:01:591:02:02

Earlier I spoke to their

co-convenor Patrick Harvie.

1:02:021:02:09

Where are we with the budget? You

will vote against it unless you get

1:02:091:02:14

more concessions?

Last week there

was an opposition debates, Labour

1:02:141:02:20

debate billed as no confidence in

the Scottish budget which I think

1:02:201:02:27

opposition parties especially when

there was a minority Government have

1:02:271:02:31

a responsibility to be constructive,

we did this, we have been clear all

1:02:311:02:35

the way along that there are three

key areas women need to do more.

Can

1:02:351:02:40

we just go through?

We have an

agreement that they need to amend

1:02:401:02:45

the draft budget to deal with local

Government public sector pay and

1:02:451:02:50

low-carbon investment.

Let's briefly

look at the public sector pay, they

1:02:501:02:54

said they will give 3% to anyone

ended in the coming under £30,000.

1:02:541:02:58

You will not relate and vote against

the people over the past 30,003%

1:02:581:03:04

UMPIRE: Game, set and match, There's

not a specific

1:03:041:03:06

pay policy itself and that will be

subject to negotiation with the

1:03:071:03:11

unions. The ambition and a fair case

of people deserve and inflation

1:03:111:03:18

-based increase and if you look

particularly at the spears of

1:03:181:03:20

teachers who have gone from seeing a

decade of erosion and their pay,

1:03:201:03:26

they don't compare very preventable

countries. I know it is... I am

1:03:261:03:34

trying to get to, have you seen you

will not vote for the budget unless

1:03:341:03:40

that is a 3% pay rise for people

earning over £30,000?

What we have

1:03:401:03:44

said as the Government has to

reverse the proposal for £157

1:03:441:03:49

million of cuts...

Let's stick to

the page.

Make a fair contribution

1:03:491:03:54

to the extra cost the local

Government will have to meet if they

1:03:541:03:58

were having a policy that is what is

acceptable to the unions.

That does

1:03:581:04:02

not answer my question which was as

one of your red lines that public

1:04:021:04:07

sector workers who are running more

than £30,000 should get an efficient

1:04:071:04:10

paydays of the present?

Personally I

do not think the Government has made

1:04:101:04:15

a strong case for that cut off but

it is for the unions to negotiate.

1:04:151:04:19

That is not a deadline for you and

the budget?

It is for the unions to

1:04:191:04:27

decide. Unique causation at local

Government level is separate to that

1:04:271:04:31

policy and local governments needs

to be any position of knowing that

1:04:311:04:33

they have the resources available to

make a fair pay offer at local

1:04:331:04:37

Government level.

You want more

money for local Government? How

1:04:371:04:40

much?

The spice analysis suggests

that is £157 million... That is the

1:04:401:04:51

independent analysis not recover any

particle party so we think that is

1:04:511:04:55

the fairest figure, it is the

equivalent analysis to the one be

1:04:551:04:59

used last year they said there was

blood and £60 million of cuts. We

1:04:591:05:02

reverse that, it is a very similar

figure. But above that cancer need a

1:05:021:05:07

fair contribution to the costs that

they are going to face.

You said

1:05:071:05:17

157, plus how much work they need to

make what you call a fake pet --

1:05:171:05:22

fair pay settlement?

That is a

judgment call. The more we can do on

1:05:221:05:28

that, the better position councils

will be in to negotiate...

I want to

1:05:281:05:32

know your red line, gear, it is you

want at least £157 million more for

1:05:321:05:38

local government but some extra to

take care of pay demands?

That cut

1:05:381:05:43

is unacceptable and has to go if the

government had to be consistent with

1:05:431:05:49

the way they voted on Wednesday last

week when they said they needed to

1:05:491:05:53

amend their draft budget to protect

local services. But they does have

1:05:531:05:57

to be a contribution... A lot of

councils are budgeting for something

1:05:571:06:02

like 2% pay increase, if they want

to go that little bit further, there

1:06:021:06:06

will be a fair contribution.

OK. Low

Carbon projects, that could be

1:06:061:06:12

anything, couldn't it, any amount of

money because there are so many

1:06:121:06:16

different things.

In many ways this

isn't about the money in the coming

1:06:161:06:21

year's budget but the direction of

travel. The low carbon

1:06:211:06:25

infrastructure task force recommends

that 70% of capital budget should be

1:06:251:06:28

on low carbon. We are way below that

in Scotland.

Your red line on that

1:06:281:06:33

one is just make a bit of progress?

We have said that there needs to be

1:06:331:06:38

that long-term direction of travel

-- long-term, but we have flagged

1:06:381:06:42

specific areas where local

communities are campaigning for

1:06:421:06:46

improvements, new stations and rail

lines for example. The ability of

1:06:461:06:53

communities to put those ideas on

the table is limited at the moment

1:06:531:06:56

so we have suggested mechanism, a

relatively small amount of money,

1:06:561:07:00

single figures of millions of

pounds, where the Government could

1:07:001:07:03

empower people to get their own

appraisals and analysis done,

1:07:031:07:06

viability studies for projects and

have public transport to meet

1:07:061:07:12

people's needs.

Bottom line, you

will vote the Budget through, there

1:07:121:07:15

is no way you will oppose it?

That

is simply unrealistic. Look at the

1:07:151:07:21

track record. We are the only party

that has brought down a budget under

1:07:211:07:25

the previous minority government

when the Tories were voting for

1:07:251:07:29

budget after budget after budget. We

judge these things on their merits

1:07:291:07:33

and very clearly, we have been bound

by our party conference, we took

1:07:331:07:37

these principles to party members

who democratically voted on our

1:07:371:07:41

priorities.

FIM Derek Mackay I

think, I had better give them the

1:07:411:07:47

money on local government, he has

probably put that in his

1:07:471:07:50

calculations, and otherwise that is

it.

It is clear that Derek has

1:07:501:07:55

proposed a tax plan that includes

clear mistakes, he acknowledges it,

1:07:551:07:59

calls it an anomaly where islanders

will get a tax cut. There are clear

1:07:591:08:05

opportunities for a better, fairer

plan to fund the public services our

1:08:051:08:09

country relies on.

We have to leave

it there, Patrick Harvie, thank you.

1:08:091:08:13

Now it's time to look back

over events and forwards

1:08:131:08:15

to the week ahead.

1:08:151:08:20

Joining me this week

are the journalist Peter Geoghegan

1:08:201:08:22

and the former Conservative health

spokesperson and MSP Mary Scanlon.

1:08:221:08:24

Welcome, both.

1:08:241:08:31

Peter, Richard Leonard, I am not

sure I know what Labour policy is on

1:08:311:08:38

Brexit, but I am not sure... He was

very adamant that Britain should

1:08:381:08:42

stay in the customs union, I am not

sure that is Labour policies.

It is

1:08:421:08:48

interesting, Jeremy Corbyn said

previously we should leave the

1:08:481:08:50

customs union and the single market.

When it came to the single market he

1:08:501:08:57

was saying, we shouldn't stay in,

whereas he was passionate about the

1:08:571:09:02

customs union. The UK has a deficit

of good straight with the EU but a

1:09:021:09:06

surplus of services so if we left

the single market there could be all

1:09:061:09:11

sorts of barriers to sending our

services to the rest of the EU so in

1:09:111:09:14

some respects you could argue that

Britain needs to be in the single

1:09:141:09:17

market more than the customs union,

but when you listen to Richard

1:09:171:09:20

Leonard it seemed to be that the red

lines were drawn, and it wasn't

1:09:201:09:24

quite clear what the reason for

drawing the red

1:09:241:09:36

line the way it is was. You can see

the differences with the Labour

1:09:411:09:44

Party at the UK level. It was also

interesting the way he was talking

1:09:441:09:47

about timing with Starmer and Corbyn

saying some have been premature. It

1:09:471:09:49

gives you the impression the Labour

Party are looking at things less as

1:09:491:09:52

red lines than choreography and it

is maybe reflected in Scotland, it

1:09:521:09:54

is easier to say these things

because there isn't the same issue

1:09:541:09:56

around Labour Leave voters than the

rest of the UK.

Meret, Peter makes a

1:09:561:09:59

point about services. President

Macron says this is your passport in

1:09:591:10:03

for financial services and you

cannot get that unless you are a

1:10:031:10:07

member of the single market. John

McDonnell earlier said getting that

1:10:071:10:13

passport in is one of his red lines.

I am not sure how you square these

1:10:131:10:17

things.

I have to say the charming

Mr Macron did an excellent job, but

1:10:171:10:23

he is one of 20 countries

negotiating with the UK. There is

1:10:231:10:29

still a long way to go in the

negotiations, and I think the point

1:10:291:10:34

Peter was making is that it has been

very unclear prior to the Brexit

1:10:341:10:40

referendum and since just exactly

what Labour's case is, and that is

1:10:401:10:45

why I think there are so many

hold-ups, so much mudslinging at

1:10:451:10:50

Westminster, because the Government

has no idea what amendments the

1:10:501:10:54

Labour Party will support or not

support, and as a Remainer, I would

1:10:541:10:59

also say that if Corbyn and the

Labour Party had been clearer about

1:10:591:11:04

Brexit in the lead up to the Brexit

referendum, we might be in a

1:11:041:11:08

different place now.

OK. That is a

very interesting way of not blaming

1:11:081:11:14

David Cameron, who called the thing

in the first place.

Of course he

1:11:141:11:19

did, but he probably expected a

little more support from the Labour

1:11:191:11:23

Party, and I think that was

reasonable.

Police Scotland, Peter,

1:11:231:11:29

Susan Deacon, the new chair of the

SPLA is coming up the committee this

1:11:291:11:34

week with more shenanigans and

shenanigans and accusations and

1:11:341:11:36

counter accusations. Where is this

going?

It is almost like following

1:11:361:11:41

Brexit in some respects, the

machinations seem so labyrinthine

1:11:411:11:45

and going on. We had the chief of

Police Scotland's wife talking about

1:11:451:11:56

accusations, there are still lots of

questions. Susan Deacon is new in

1:11:561:12:00

his job and the SPLA were rapped

over the knuckles by auditors before

1:12:001:12:06

Christmas who said their

investigations were not fast or

1:12:061:12:08

thorough enough and we have the

issue was well about what happened

1:12:081:12:15

in November. Then at the 11th hour,

in transit, people were told to come

1:12:151:12:21

back. There was a meeting between Mr

Masterson and then SPA cheap which

1:12:211:12:26

did not have minutes so we don't

know what happens, the issue of not

1:12:261:12:30

limiting becoming an issue with the

Scottish Government so Susan Deacon

1:12:301:12:33

will have do answer questions. There

is a need for clarity.

You could

1:12:331:12:37

start the answer to each question by

saying, I wasn't there! Is this just

1:12:371:12:46

soap operas, Mary? It obviously had

serious implications but is it just

1:12:461:12:50

soap operas, or do you think there

is a structural problem with Police

1:12:501:12:55

Scotland or the SPA or both.

There

is but also a cultural problem.

1:12:551:13:01

Taking for Gormley out of it there

were problems when it was Stephen

1:13:011:13:05

House. When Police Scotland was set

up you have the SPA and Stephen

1:13:051:13:13

House both hiring lawyers to

determine what their job

1:13:131:13:16

descriptions were, so there is a

long history here. Whether Phil

1:13:161:13:21

Gormley has done something wrong or

not, he doesn't deserve... He has

1:13:211:13:26

been paid £214,000 to do nothing,

but at the same time, seven months

1:13:261:13:31

is a long time to wait to be

interviewed, so I do have a little

1:13:311:13:35

bit of empathy with the points his

wife is making this week. But the

1:13:351:13:39

fact is that Police Scotland is

rudderless, leaderless, they are

1:13:391:13:44

about to take over the British

Transport Police that the worst

1:13:441:13:48

possible time -- Scottish transport

police.

We have to leave it there.

1:13:481:13:51

That's all from us for this week.

1:13:511:13:52

I'll be back on Wednesday afternoon

with Politics Scotland.

1:13:521:13:55

Until then, goodbye.

1:13:551:13:58

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