14/01/2018 Sunday Politics Scotland


14/01/2018

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Morning, everyone.

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I'm Sarah Smith and this

is the Sunday Politics -

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your inside briefing on all the big

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political stories happening

in Westminster and beyond.

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Coming up on today's show.

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The

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The decision to release serial sex

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attacker John Worboys...

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Does the Government now "look more

like the country it represents"?

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After a tricky reshuffle, we speak

to one of the new faces sitting

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around the Cabinet table -

the immigration minister

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Caroline Nokes.

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Does the Government have a clearer

idea about what our future

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relationship with the EU

should look like?

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And for that matter,

does the Labour Party

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And on Sunday Politics Scotland...

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I'll be assking what the Scottish

Government wants from Brexit

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and asking the Scottish Tories why

they've turned against

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the UK Government.

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And sitting around our top

table today, I'm joined

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by some familiar faces.

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We tried a reshuffle

of our own but they simply refused

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to budge: Tom Newton Dunn,

Julia Hartley-Brewer,

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and Steve Richards.

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Now, after a pretty bumpy 2017,

Theresa May actually went

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in to the Christmas break

in relatively good political health.

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So, what better way to kick off 2018

than by shaking up her top team

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and reasserting her authority?

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But as she found this week, things

don't always go according to plan.

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If you're going to carry out major

surgery on your Government, you need

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to be sure the prognosis is good.

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It was a picture of health

to begin with, a fresh,

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new team at Party HQ,

but before long, complications

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arose.

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Justine Greening, who's had a rocky

time at Education, decided

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she'd had enough.

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She quit the Government

rather than accept a

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sideways move.

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While Jeremy Hunt refused

to budge from his job at

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Health.

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He even left his meeting having

added social care to his job

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title.

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There was a fresher look among

the junior ministerial ranks.

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But when the new Cabinet met

on Tuesday morning, it looked...

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Well, very much like the old one.

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Normally loyal Conservative grandee

Nicholas Soames asked, "Is that it?"

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The state of the NHS

then caused more pain.

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Dozens of senior doctors wrote to

the Prime Minister saying conditions

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in some hospitals were

becoming intolerable.

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Patients were dying prematurely.

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We have now clearly reached

the point where the NHS

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cannot meet the standards

of care that we would,

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all of us in the NHS,

ministers included, want to provide.

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At Prime Minister's Questions,

the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn

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pressed on the bruise.

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We know the Prime Minister

recognises there is a

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crisis in our NHS,

because she wanted to sack

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the Health Secretary last week

but was too weak to do it.

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Mr Corbyn announced his own

reshuffle towards the end of the

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week, with a surprising

return to the front

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bench for Clive Lewis,

who

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has been cleared of sexual

harassment claims.

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While two other Labour

MPs, Kelvin Hopkins and

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Ivan Lewis, have been referred

to an independent disciplinary

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panel over allegations

of sexual misconduct.

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On Friday, US President Donald Trump

raised the temperature, cancelling

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his visit to the UK next month

to open the new American Embassy.

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Calling the decision to relocate

the building to an off

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location is a bad deal.

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His friends on this side

of the pond suspected

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Just maybe, Sadiq Khan,

Jeremy Corbyn in the Labour Party

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planning mass protests, maybe those

optics he didn't like the look of.

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Nigel Farage also set

pulses racing with this:

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I'm reaching the point

of

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thinking that we should

have a second referendum because...

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On what?

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On EU membership.

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The whole thing?!

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Of course, of course.

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The Conservatives

hope focusing on the

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environment will bring

the party back to health.

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The Prime Minister teamed up

with her new eco-warrior

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Environment Secretary, Michael Gove,

to crack down on the use of

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plastics.

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We must reduce the demand

for plastic, reduce the number of

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plastics in circulation

and improve our recycling rates.

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It all seems strangely

reminiscent of someone who

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once said, vote blue, go green.

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In another tricky

week that's left the

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PM looking a little

green around the gills.

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Now, let's pick up on a story

which broke overnight: the new

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Justice Secretary David Gauke

is considering a judicial review

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of the decision to release

the serial sex attacker

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John Worboys on parole.

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Earlier this month the Parole Board

announced that he would be released

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under strict licence conditions.

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He was jailed in 2009 for a minimum

of eight years for drugging

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and sexually assaulting 12 women.

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However, it's thought he may have

carried out as many as 100 rapes

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and sexual assaults on women

in London in the early 2000s.

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I will take this to the panel first.

This is obviously a very emotive

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case, and people get very worked up

about it, but the politics of the

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Justice Secretary, Tom, asking for a

judicial review against the body

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which is really under the

supervision of his own department,

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this gets a little odd.

Justice

Secretary criticises Justice

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Department shock. There is a whiff

of panic in the Government over this

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now. I think David Gauke's decision

is emblematic of that. For whatever

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reason, the Government have found

themselves on the wrong side of

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public opinion on this. An appalling

mass serial rapist is about to be

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let out of prison this week, having

served less than ten years for

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crimes most of which he wasn't even

prosecuted for. They have seven or

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eight days to do this judicial

review, and David Gauke has only

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done it because he is under pressure

from other Cabinet ministers. The

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entire Justice Department and

justice policy has really been

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interested for up to seven years

because the Tory Government really

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can't make up its mind between a

liberal justice establishment is

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based on rehabilitation and less

time in prison and the more

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traditional Tory authoritarian lock

them up and throw the key away

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system, and the consequence is

today's decision. You have had five

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Justice Secretary is, from the king

of soft justice himself, Ken

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of soft justice himself, Ken Clarke,

and now David Gauke, so perhaps it's

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no huge surprise that the system is

now in a bit of a mess.

If Tom is

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right that the Government are

playing catch up on John Worboys

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because of the huge public outcry,

is it nonetheless the right thing to

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do?

It seems to me the parole board

breached their own rules. The

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victims have a right to make

representations. We know that some

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of the victims whose cases were

brought, and again, he is not

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convicted as a serial rapist because

those cases one brought to court, a

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decision made by Kia Starmer, then

the Director of Public Prosecutions.

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The other fundamental issue is a lot

of what Tom was saying, that the

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Tory Government is out of touch, as

I think all of the establishment and

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party leaders are. Is this

ridiculous nonsense that someone is

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released halfway through a sentence,

if you are sentenced to ten years or

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whatever, you should be serving the

full sentence, and maybe six months

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off for good behaviour, or better

still, more years on for bad

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behaviour. I think the British

public think the justice system is

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an absolute joke, and they think

that because it is.

You raise an

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interesting point about what the

public care about versus what is

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debated at Westminster. We spent an

enormous amount of last year talking

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about Brexit, to the exclusion of

most other things. A few other

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issues have raised their heads this

week, Steve. First and foremost, the

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NHS has been causing more than a few

political problems for the

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Government.

If Brexit wasn't

swamping everything, this would be

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the overwhelming issue. Voters are

much more concerned about this than

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anything else, with good cause. At

some point, there will have to be a

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grown discussion about funding of

the NHS and how we pay for it.

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Whether that will be possible in the

current climate I doubt. But I don't

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think it's entirely impossible

because I think the crisis will

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intensify. In a way, that has been

overlooked, that 2017 election

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partly accepted miraculously in

British politics that to get

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improvements in some services you

have to pay for it. So, maybe there

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will be a grown-up debate, but don't

hold your breath. In the meantime,

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it will be an issue that Theresa May

will have to keep at least one eye

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on, as well as trying to negotiate

the impossible with Brexit.

At PMQs,

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the Prime Minister said the NHS was

the best prepared it had ever been,

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and doctors were saying that

patients were dying prematurely. In

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the short-term, political damage

absolutely. The tanks are parked on

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Labour territory there. The general

consensus in the country is not that

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they trust the Tories on the NHS,

which is a big issue for them. A lot

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of the problems are down to the fact

that we're getting older and living

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longer, and there are amazing

treatments, operations and drugs

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that can keep us alive. We see it as

a problem but it is a wonderful

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miracle of modern science and

medicine and we should be grateful

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for such problems.

The big news was

that we were going to get a

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Government that looked more like the

rest of the country in the

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reshuffle. It turned out not to be

quite as dramatic as some of us

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expected. Was it a Government fail?

Depends how you define fail. It has

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taken a few days for the penny to

drop, though I had my suspicions on

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the night when some of the 20 15th

intake got no promotions at all. It

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was a tell-tale sign. Was it a

success in that it stored to the top

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of the buildings? Not really, she

just rearranged the deckchairs on

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the Titanic. Caroline Noakes was

attending Cabinet rather than being

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a full cabinet minister, but the

Theresa May managed to fend off the

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vultures coming for her by

absolutely wilfully, it now appears,

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failing to put key rivals into key

positions, people like Rory Stewart,

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Dominic Raj, some of the 2015ers? It

was a public fail but digging in

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privately.

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Well, listening to all that is my

first guest, Caroline Nokes.

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She was promoted to immigration

minister in the reshuffle this

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week and, in that role,

now attends Cabinet.

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Congratulations on the new job. You

are presumably part of the making

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the Government look more like the

country. Did the Prime Minister

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achieve that?

I think she did. Look

at the whip's offers, where there

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are more women than ever before. I

remember coming in in 2010 and

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looking at a wet's office that was

really mail.

Why can't we have 50-50

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women in the Cabinet?

We are heading

in the right direction, there are

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two more women in the Cabinet.

Even

the Scottish Government has a policy

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of 50-50 in the Cabinet - surely

it's possible?

We started from a

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very low base of women, even

elected. I think we're doing a

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fantastic job of encouraging more

women to come forward, and from more

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diverse backgrounds. It is a work in

progress but we are headed in the

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right direction.

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right direction. People like Kerry

bad not, who went to the same

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university as I did, the University

of Sussex, hardly a breeding ground

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for Tory politicians.

In the

Government, there are 3% non-white

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people - not very representative?

We

have done a good job of attracting

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more diverse people to come and

stand the rise in the Government.

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Our messages, -- our message is,

we're working hard to make sure that

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those bright, young women from

diverse backgrounds have a chance.

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You know, it's a process, isn't it?

We are all climbing up the ladder. I

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think the Cabinet looks better than

it did. I have always advocated more

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women in Parliament, and the last

debate I did was about getting more

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women to stand in politics, and that

really matters.

The big news this

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morning is the idea that the Justice

Secretary may take a judicial review

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against the release of John Worboys.

What is your view on that? Should do

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just this minute himself be taking

judicial review is against this kind

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of decision?

We will look at the

victims of Worboys and we want them

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to get the support they need and to

see that justice is being done. It

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is absolutely right that David Gauke

is looking at a judicial review.

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None of us feel happy with the

parole board decision. This is a man

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who served less than ten years, and

it's a horrific number of victims.

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We can't see the parole board's

decision or the reasoning for it.

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The Government could change that at

a stroke and allow them to publish

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it. Should they?

The Justice

Secretary is reviewing the process,

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which is important. We want people

to have confidence. Our justice

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system is a very old and proud one.

Let's not undermine it. Let's make

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sure we get the right decisions in

place.

Lets get onto your own brief,

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your new brief on immigration. It

means you inherit the target of

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reducing net migration to the tens

of thousands. The last five

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ministers have failed, will you do

it?

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The last five ministers have seen

the trajectory heading down, the

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last figures we saw in the summer

show it dropped significantly.

It

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dropped slightly, 14,000 lower than

when you came to power in 2010,

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overall net migration at 240 4000.

We want to make sure this is a

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brittle open for business, that the

brightest and best can come here to

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work and study. We are listening to

the universities and to business via

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the immigration advisory

committee...

So if we are open to

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business and the brightest and best

come here why have this target of

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reducing net migration to less than

100,000? Lots of Cabinet ministers

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would like to get rid of it. You

could have lifted and the 2017

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manifesto and got rid of quite a

headache.

We had a referendum in

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2016 which sent a clear message that

people want that target to remain,

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they want to see as reducing

immigration to sustainable levels

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and we are doing just that. It is in

the manifesto so that is the

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direction of travel.

Immigration

from outside the EU, you claimed

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that once we leave everything will

change with freedom of movement, but

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net migration from outside the EU

which you have complete control over

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now, it's over 100,000 in and of

itself. Why hasn't that been tackled

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in the seven years that this has now

been a target?

We are attacking it,

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and we are doing this I have a

banking measures you have heard

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about this week, working to make

sure that those with bank accounts

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and are not here legally have those

Fresnel cursive necessary, that is

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important, we have a raft of

measures but the current Home

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Secretary and the previous one have

been clear on this, we will get

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these numbers down and do it in a

manageable and sustained way.

It is

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not what business one. The Tory

mayor Andy Street says the target

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should be more like 150,000 so

businesses can attract people with

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the skills they need and George

Osborne says this is economic and

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made illiterate because we need

higher migration and that --

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economically illiterate.

Which is

why we are listening to the

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committee which will report in

September which will give a solid

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expert economist's view on what

migration levels should be. But it

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was in the manifesto, we are

determined to head in that direction

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and bring immigration down to a

sustainable level.

If you're

0:18:000:18:05

immigration advisor comes to you and

says somebody like Andy Street is

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right we need around 150,000 coming,

will you change it? Because this was

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a manifesto promise to get it down

to under 110,000 a year, so what

0:18:150:18:21

will that looked like if you have

disabled we didn't get it right.

Am

0:18:210:18:25

not going to prejudge.

I and asking

what you will do with their view

0:18:250:18:30

because you are stuck with this

promise of reducing immigration to

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tens of thousands, there's not much

you can do if they oppose that.

You

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are telling someone who has been in

the job less than a week that she

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should make a decision on the hoof

in a TV studio! Not a chance. What I

0:18:420:18:47

need to do is listen to the experts

and come up with the direction of

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travel that satisfies those who

voted Believe in the referendum,

0:18:510:18:54

that satisfies businesses, like the

brilliant Russell group University

0:18:540:19:00

and the one in Southampton on the

edge of my constituency can still

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attract the best students. This is a

really difficult complicated area.

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He mentioned the need to attract the

brightest students. While other

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numbers of students coming to

Britain to study included in the net

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migration figures? You could help

yourselves quickly by taking them

0:19:160:19:19

out of it. Just about every Cabinet

member wants them removed from

0:19:190:19:23

official figures, why are they

there?

The O M as determinate

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students should be included because

they are here for more than 12

0:19:280:19:30

months. We must make sure we have

the public services that support

0:19:300:19:38

them. Many of them go home after

their study as they should but it is

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important that we work with the

immigration advisory committee to

0:19:410:19:45

get the right answers.

You are happy

about students being included in the

0:19:450:19:50

migration figures?

And happy we've

got 24% more coming to our

0:19:500:19:55

universities than we had in 2010.

I'm happy that we are attracting a

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great calibre of student here, I'm

equally happy that our former

0:19:590:20:04

feminists are cracked down on bogus

colleges and close them because we

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want bright students to come here

and in the -- that our former Prime

0:20:070:20:12

Minister cracked down on bogus

colleges and closed them.

Button

0:20:120:20:17

back to the panel, Steve Camille

can't envy the new Immigration

0:20:170:20:21

Minister being tasked with reducing

immigration to a level that no other

0:20:210:20:26

Immigration Minister has been able

to achieve.

I don't envy you, I

0:20:260:20:31

don't know your Private view but I

do note that most Cabinet ministers

0:20:310:20:35

don't want student numbers to be

part of the total figure and Theresa

0:20:350:20:39

May alone is still pressing this.

I've just been doing a series about

0:20:390:20:45

a David Cameron. He made a series of

targets which were never met, as you

0:20:450:20:49

said in the interview. Good luck

with that. Lots of people I meet now

0:20:490:20:54

who were in favour of Brexit, like

farmers, pleading, as you will know,

0:20:540:21:01

for cheap Labour from Eastern Europe

to continue. They don't want to fill

0:21:010:21:04

in loads more forms to get them. So

there's a lot of talk

0:21:040:21:13

there's a lot of talk about Nimby

free movement and you have a tough

0:21:150:21:18

brief.

Julia, should net immigration

be reduced to tens of thousands, is

0:21:180:21:23

it important to the public?

I find

it bizarre they asked to a target

0:21:230:21:28

they've never done anything to

reach, certainly the immigration

0:21:280:21:32

levels that they were able to

control under the coalition and

0:21:320:21:35

David Cameron on his own, the

numbers can't be controlled

0:21:350:21:40

completely, they never even came

close, it was more than double,

0:21:400:21:44

about 250,000. I find this row about

students strange. If you live in the

0:21:440:21:49

country for three or four years you

need somewhere to live, you'll be

0:21:490:21:52

getting buses and trains, might need

to go to the hospital, is that the

0:21:520:21:56

idea that these people don't exist

because they are not here

0:21:560:22:00

permanently? And some of them do

stay. It's ridiculous. We need a

0:22:000:22:04

sensible debate. Brexit wasn't about

ending immigration. It was about us.

0:22:040:22:11

Like virtually every other country

in the world choosing who gets to

0:22:110:22:14

come here. If you are qualified and

have a skill we need we would love

0:22:140:22:18

to have you, come on in, the water

is lovely! But if we just want cheap

0:22:180:22:24

Labour subsidised by the taxpayer

with a housing benefit, to do jobs

0:22:240:22:29

not paid enough, then I don't think

we should. When it comes to farmers

0:22:290:22:32

we should pay more for...

Julia has

given quite a good explanation of

0:22:320:22:39

why the target was set up and should

probably stay because if there is no

0:22:390:22:43

target, then cheap Labour will

continue to flow in because it's the

0:22:430:22:47

easiest thing for business to do. If

you are limited in who you can bring

0:22:470:22:52

in new might turn to the indigenous

British population and start hiring

0:22:520:22:56

them to do decent jobs they are

perfectly capable of doing.

The

0:22:560:23:01

panel will be staying with us

throughout the programme. Thank you

0:23:010:23:05

to Caroline Nokes, the Immigration

Minister, for coming in.

0:23:050:23:08

Now with all the other stuff that's

been going on this week,

0:23:080:23:11

you might be concerned we'd

forgotten about the small

0:23:110:23:13

matter of Brexit.

0:23:130:23:14

But don't worry, it's

still very much on the agenda.

0:23:140:23:17

Having sealed a deal

on the divorce talks,

0:23:170:23:20

the focus is now shifting

to the future relationship.

0:23:200:23:21

The EU says we can only

have an 'off-the-shelf' model,

0:23:210:23:23

like the deals with Norway

or Canada; but the UK Government

0:23:230:23:26

says we can be far more ambitious,

as Elizabeth Glinka reports.

0:23:260:23:30

# Do you have the time #

To listen to me whine?#.

0:23:300:23:36

In her Florence speech,

Theresa May made it

0:23:410:23:43

clear that when it comes

to

0:23:430:23:45

trade negotiations with the EU,

the UK isn't looking for any

0:23:450:23:48

off-the-shelf kind of deal.

0:23:480:23:49

It wants something

special and bespoke.

0:23:490:23:53

I'm optimistic about

what we can achieve

0:23:530:23:55

by finding a creative solution

to a new economic relationship that

0:23:550:23:58

can support prosperity

for all our peoples.

0:23:580:24:03

Before Christmas, the senior

official in charge of Brexit

0:24:040:24:06

told the Cabinet that

when it comes to that

0:24:060:24:08

creative solution,

they

0:24:080:24:12

should start thinking in terms

of three baskets, what some people

0:24:120:24:14

are calling managed divergence.

0:24:140:24:16

The Institute for

Government has been

0:24:160:24:17

looking at what it means.

0:24:170:24:21

Three baskets corresponds

to the three areas

0:24:210:24:23

that Theresa May spoke

about in her Florence speech.

0:24:230:24:25

We have full alignment,

where we will continue to

0:24:250:24:27

meet the same outcomes

in the same way as we do now.

0:24:270:24:30

Regulatory equivalence

is where we will

0:24:300:24:31

continue to meet the same

outcomes as the EU

0:24:310:24:34

but might go about it

in a

0:24:340:24:35

slightly different way.

0:24:350:24:37

And then the final basket

around divergence,

0:24:370:24:41

where we will go about things

in a different way and may choose

0:24:410:24:44

to take completely different

outcomes at the

0:24:440:24:45

end of it.

0:24:450:24:48

OK, so if we were to look

at particular industries, say

0:24:480:24:50

something like aviation, maybe

workers' rights, we might put them

0:24:500:24:53

in this basket because we are saying

not much is going to change.

0:24:530:24:57

It would be very difficult to put

0:24:570:24:59

whole industries and whole sectors

in specific baskets.

0:24:590:25:02

If you take agriculture,

for example, state aid

0:25:020:25:06

and how much overall we can

subsidise our farmers may well sit

0:25:060:25:11

in full alignment, whereas issues

about agricultural and environmental

0:25:110:25:14

protection standards,

we could continue to

0:25:140:25:16

meet the same goals

but

0:25:160:25:18

by different means, and they can sit

in the middle basket.

0:25:180:25:22

Whereas, actually,

exactly what we subsidise

0:25:220:25:25

our farmers for could be completely

up to the UK and sit in the

0:25:250:25:28

divergent basket.

0:25:280:25:29

So it would be very difficult

to put single sectors

0:25:290:25:32

in single baskets.

0:25:320:25:34

If the UK is looking

for a high degree of access

0:25:340:25:37

to the single market,

then the EU will expect

0:25:370:25:39

lots of things ending up in the full

alignment basket,

0:25:390:25:42

whereas the UK will probably want

to try and pull as much as possible

0:25:420:25:45

into the regulatory

equivalence basket.

0:25:450:25:48

Of course, the point of all this

is is to remind the EU that

0:25:480:25:52

when it comes to these negotiations,

the UK is in a unique position

0:25:520:25:56

because currently we

are completely in sync.

0:25:560:25:59

It's in the interests of Britain

and the EU to get on

0:25:590:26:02

together.

0:26:020:26:07

People are thinking that it's

a binary thing, we are either

0:26:080:26:11

in the EU or we're out, that it's

night and day, but it isn't.

0:26:110:26:14

The point about

managed divergence is

0:26:140:26:16

that it does give us

much more flexibility.

0:26:160:26:17

We can decide for ourselves

which bits we want to keep

0:26:170:26:20

and which bits we want

to amend or get rid of.

0:26:200:26:23

And I think...

0:26:230:26:24

I think that's a huge opportunity.

0:26:240:26:25

Philip Hammond and

David Davies have been

0:26:250:26:27

on a charm offensive

in Germany this week,

0:26:270:26:29

so just how are those very British

baskets going down in

0:26:290:26:31

Brussels?

0:26:310:26:32

There is a concern that the UK

will take a shopping basket,

0:26:320:26:35

pick off the elements of the major

trade agreements the EU has secured

0:26:350:26:38

with third countries,

take all those together.

0:26:380:26:40

It gets the UK very close to full

membership of the single

0:26:400:26:43

market without any of

the obligations, so I think

0:26:430:26:45

they view managed divergence

as another way in

0:26:450:26:50

which the UK either hopes to cherry

pick or have its cake and eat it.

0:26:500:26:54

All member states will

agree that they can't

0:26:540:26:56

set a precedent with

the

0:26:560:26:58

UK that then sets internal

challenges for themselves over the

0:26:580:27:00

medium to longer term.

0:27:000:27:02

Now, what goes into

these baskets remains a

0:27:020:27:08

bit of a mystery, but of course,

there are deadlines because the next

0:27:090:27:12

round of talks is due to get under

way

0:27:120:27:14

this spring.

0:27:140:27:15

And you

can find more Brexit analysis

0:27:150:27:18

and explanation on the BBC website,

at bbc.co.uk/Brexit.

0:27:180:27:22

With me now is the Shadow

International Trade

0:27:220:27:24

Secretary, Barry Gardiner.

0:27:240:27:29

Welcome to the programme, thank you

for coming back. We were learning

0:27:290:27:36

about the different baskets, full

alignment, regulatory alignment.

0:27:360:27:39

Labour say you want to give all the

benefits and the single market so

0:27:390:27:43

presumably want to stay as much in

alignment as we do already?

What

0:27:430:27:49

we've said is that the government

have said we could have all the

0:27:490:27:52

benefits and we will hold them to

that.

To do that, we must keep most

0:27:520:27:57

of what we can in the full alignment

basket?

We want to make sure we get

0:27:570:28:04

as much of the benefits as we

currently have once we have left the

0:28:040:28:08

EU.

You can't do that and diverged.

Absolutely. That's the point.

0:28:080:28:14

Diverges from that, whether through

a trade deal with another country or

0:28:140:28:18

whether it is simply because we want

to deregulate our standards in the

0:28:180:28:24

UK is going to cause a problem with

maintaining the sort of trade we

0:28:240:28:28

have with Europe. It's going to

cause that economic bond. But we

0:28:280:28:32

want to make sure we have a Brexit

that is for jobs, for the economy

0:28:320:28:36

and that's why we see the benefits

of the single market, the benefits

0:28:360:28:40

of the customs union, and swipe we

said we wouldn't rule is off the

0:28:400:28:44

table. Whereas the government

precisely said it would. And that is

0:28:440:28:48

the red lines that Theresa May put

in place that are now causing her

0:28:480:28:51

all these other problems.

They've

caused a few problems in policy for

0:28:510:28:57

Labour as well because the closer

you want to stay to single market

0:28:570:29:00

rules, if we've loved the single

market because that is government

0:29:000:29:03

policy, more alignment would have --

if we've left. That is us accepting

0:29:030:29:09

rules we had no say in making, a

state you have described as being a

0:29:090:29:13

vassal state.

These other uses we

really have to resolve. Because you

0:29:130:29:19

are right, once we leave the EU that

means we are not a member of the

0:29:190:29:23

single market. It doesn't mean we

can't trade into the single market,

0:29:230:29:28

of course we can. We can do that in

the same way that Norway does. But

0:29:280:29:33

our economy is very different from

that of Norway. And what we need to

0:29:330:29:36

be sure about is when we are making

our rules in this country we are

0:29:360:29:41

doing it as close as possible to

maintain the trade and the economic

0:29:410:29:45

benefits we get in the European

Union.

There have been reports this

0:29:450:29:49

week that Labour is working on a

policy that would involve staying in

0:29:490:29:53

the customs union. The Robert Peston

programme on ITV...

That could not

0:29:530:29:59

be the case. I'm sorry to correct

you on a technicality. But once you

0:29:590:30:04

leave the EU you leave the treaties

and it is the treaties that create

0:30:040:30:08

the customs union. So we could not

be a member of the customs union.

0:30:080:30:16

You could be remember of a customs

union, which is what Jeremy Corbyn

0:30:170:30:21

was talking about on TV this

morning.

He was talking about the

0:30:210:30:26

transition period immediately after

leaving the EU. That has been our

0:30:260:30:29

position for many months. We were

the ones that said, in that

0:30:290:30:34

transitional period, we want the

status quo. We want to maintain

0:30:340:30:36

things that are... We want to

maintain a customs union and single

0:30:360:30:42

market during that transition.

Let's

talk about the future after the

0:30:420:30:47

transition period. Let's look at

what you said you thought were the

0:30:470:30:53

consequences.

0:30:530:30:58

consequences. Do you still agree

with that?

I was specifically

0:31:030:31:08

referring to, and if you go back on

that quote a little bit, you will

0:31:080:31:12

find we were talking about the

turkey situation, which was a

0:31:120:31:16

customs union agreement with the EU.

That would be a very bad end point

0:31:160:31:20

for us, because it would mean that

the European Union ended up doing

0:31:200:31:23

all the negotiations for trade for

the UK. We would have to open our

0:31:230:31:27

markets to any other company in --

any other country they made an

0:31:270:31:33

agreement with. But that country

would not have to liberalise its

0:31:330:31:37

markets and open itself up to our

goods and services.

The common

0:31:370:31:41

commercial policy is what governs

all of this and binds us in with

0:31:410:31:44

these trade treaties. The UK

Government say they want to leave

0:31:440:31:47

that. Is that the Labour position?

We will be...

Would you like to join

0:31:470:31:55

something similar once we are no

longer members of the EU?

I already

0:31:550:32:00

said, we believe that the benefits

of what we currently have should be

0:32:000:32:04

maintained as much as possible, and

that means that whilst we cannot

0:32:040:32:07

stay in the customs union, we should

not have a turkey style customs

0:32:070:32:12

union agreement, because that would

be an asymmetrical relationship with

0:32:120:32:15

any trading partner. What we do see

as a possibility, and it is what we

0:32:150:32:21

have not ruled out, which is to have

a new customs union with the

0:32:210:32:32

European Union, and that is

something very interesting wave

0:32:320:32:35

which in paragraph 31 of the

cross-border trade taxation bill

0:32:350:32:40

which came in on Monday from the

Government, and which we debated

0:32:400:32:45

them, they have actually put

provision for that, a new customs

0:32:450:32:50

union, where we would be an equal

member.

But you cannot possibly

0:32:500:32:53

believe that you can have the

benefits of being in a reformed

0:32:530:32:58

customs union relationship with the

EU and still have total freedom to

0:32:580:33:01

make new trade deals. You have said

you don't want anything which

0:33:010:33:05

precludes us from making independent

trade agreements with some of our

0:33:050:33:08

bigger partners.

Let's be clear

about the nexus of problems we are

0:33:080:33:14

trying to solve the run work our way

through. You have, within the

0:33:140:33:21

referendum, a clarity that people

were voting for certain political

0:33:210:33:24

issues, whether that was in terms of

immigration, regaining sovereignty,

0:33:240:33:29

or simply not paying money into

Europe. All of these were things

0:33:290:33:32

people thought they were voting for.

If you were to be in a relationship

0:33:320:33:37

in which some of those continued to

be the case, where we were rule

0:33:370:33:43

takers and not rule setters, as

Norway is at the moment, and they

0:33:430:33:52

are told they have no right to

decide what the rules are going to

0:33:520:33:55

be, that is a political problem

which many people in this country

0:33:550:33:58

would feel, what was the referendum

all about if we don't achieve that?

0:33:580:34:03

Let's...

Just let me... I don't

think it's clear, the problems we

0:34:030:34:09

are trying to solve. We want to

maintain a maximum economic benefit,

0:34:090:34:12

to get the economic benefit of the

jobs that we currently get from the

0:34:120:34:16

trading relationship we have in a

customs union and in a single market

0:34:160:34:21

with the European Union. But to do

that respecting the referendum will

0:34:210:34:25

of the people for those political

objectives.

We understand that

0:34:250:34:28

point.

Labour has to bring back the

42 purse -- the 52% under 48%.

We

0:34:280:34:37

understand need to move you on to

something else.

0:34:370:34:41

something else. We have

0:34:410:34:44

something else. We have heard the

0:34:440:34:44

new Tory chairman Brandon Lewis say

today that

0:34:440:34:46

today that if any... He wants new

Tory candidates to sign up to a

0:34:460:34:51

respect pledge that they will

conduct themselves on Twitter and in

0:34:510:34:54

what they say in a respectful way,

otherwise they will be removed as

0:34:540:34:57

candidates.

0:34:570:35:00

candidates.

Of course, that's right.

Jeremy Corbyn said that Labour

0:35:000:35:03

should do it too. It raises

questions about some Labour MPs.

0:35:030:35:07

Jarrod O'Mara, for example, who has

had the whip suspended.

An

0:35:070:35:13

investigation is being conducted, as

is appropriate, within all the

0:35:130:35:17

procedures of our party. Absolutely

right, suspended.

Because of remarks

0:35:170:35:22

he made about women and homophobic

comments. Then you look at the

0:35:220:35:27

Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell,

against whom no action has been

0:35:270:35:30

taken, and he has said a number of

things, but one of them which has

0:35:300:35:35

been heavily criticised is that he

0:35:350:35:38

been heavily criticised is that he

wanted... Well, he agreed with

0:35:380:35:41

people who wanted to see Esther

McVeigh lynched. We have the audio

0:35:410:35:45

of this. Let's listen and then we

will ask you about it.

I was up in

0:35:450:35:51

Liverpool a fortnight ago...

0:35:510:35:53

And obviously, he used a word that

we won't be saying on TV, but is

0:36:190:36:25

that respectful language?

It is not

language I would have used. Earlier

0:36:250:36:30

language I would have used. Earlier

today, you have been quoting

0:36:300:36:34

today, you have been quoting remarks

that were made by the President of

0:36:340:36:37

the United States which were deeply

offensive and unacceptable.

Yes.

0:36:370:36:41

Hang on.

But this is about the

Labour Party...

And you quoted. The

0:36:410:36:47

point I am making is that he was

quoting what someone else was

0:36:470:36:52

saying, and I would not have chosen

to do that.

He was clearly quoting

0:36:520:36:56

with approval, not reporting it.

The

underlying issue which the

0:36:560:37:00

Conservatives have been trying to

cover up through all the

0:37:000:37:06

cover up through all the smear on

John McDonnell, Esther McVeigh, who

0:37:060:37:08

was a Department for Work and

Pensions minister, and at a time

0:37:080:37:12

when she was in charge of work and

pensions as a minister, her company

0:37:120:37:17

had been reported for breach of

health and safety guidelines. She is

0:37:170:37:21

one of the ministers,

0:37:210:37:24

one of the ministers, and for that

reason...

Jeremy Corbyn said we

0:37:240:37:26

should stick to policies and use

respectful language. That wasn't

0:37:260:37:31

respect.

That's what I'm doing now,

and I'm trying to make the

0:37:310:37:34

underlying political point about

what's going on here. She was in

0:37:340:37:39

charge of a department in which she

was responsible for health and

0:37:390:37:42

safety when her own company which

she was

0:37:420:37:47

she was a director of, a

construction company, they had been

0:37:470:37:52

construction company, they had been

suspended, their work had had to be

0:37:520:37:54

suspended twice within three months

for breach of

0:37:540:37:58

for breach of those health and

safety guidelines, putting workers

0:37:580:38:00

at risk in her own company.

0:38:000:38:03

at risk in her own company. She is

also somebody...

We will have to

0:38:030:38:05

leave it there. Thank you very much

for that. It is coming up to

0:38:050:38:11

11:40am.

0:38:110:38:15

Good morning and welcome

to Sunday Politics Scotland.

0:38:160:38:18

Coming up on the programme...

0:38:180:38:19

Even the Scottish Tories now say

0:38:190:38:21

Westminster's Withdrawal Bill isn't

fit for purpose.

0:38:210:38:25

I'll be asking the Minister

for Brexit if this legislation

0:38:250:38:28

will ever gain consent

from the Scottish Parliament.

0:38:280:38:30

And after plans for bans on cotton

buds and plastics are announced,

0:38:300:38:34

is it time to consider

banning all waste?

0:38:340:38:36

We'll be looking into

the zero-waste economy.

0:38:360:38:43

Good morning and welcome

to the programme.

0:38:430:38:45

A new year, a new round

of rhetoric on Brexit.

0:38:450:38:49

Nicola Sturgeon says the lack

of planning by the British

0:38:490:38:51

Government "beggars belief" and has

been talking about everything

0:38:510:38:53

from refusing to endorse the Brexit

Bill in the Scottish Parliament

0:38:530:38:56

to holding another

independence referendum.

0:38:560:38:59

And the Scottish Conservatives

are now unhappy

0:38:590:39:01

about the Brexit bill too.

0:39:010:39:03

But behind the rhetoric,

what do the different sides want?

0:39:030:39:06

I'll be talking to the Conservatives

in a moment, but first I'm joined

0:39:060:39:09

by the Scottish Government's Brexit

secretary Mike Russell,

0:39:090:39:11

who's in Inveraray.

0:39:110:39:15

He is still on his tour of the

scenic parts of Scotland. Before we

0:39:150:39:20

talk about a Brexit, let me ask you

about Correlli, because I know there

0:39:200:39:24

are fears about what might happen if

the company goes down. Is the

0:39:240:39:31

Scottish Government taking any

action ahead of this?

0:39:310:39:34

We are very engaged in the issue and

Keith Brown is very focused on it.

0:39:340:39:40

We are liaising with the UK

Government, but we have some

0:39:400:39:44

assurances about the major project,

the Aberdeen peripheral route which

0:39:440:39:48

Carillion is one of the few parts of

the consortium. We are concerned

0:39:480:39:51

about the workforce, a great number

of people who work for them and in a

0:39:510:39:57

number of areas, so this is a

worrying time for them, a worrying

0:39:570:40:01

time for everyone involved in the

company. We will work with the UK

0:40:010:40:07

Government and work with the company

to try to find a way forward.

0:40:070:40:12

On the Aberdeen project, the bypass,

are you saying it will continue

0:40:120:40:17

irrespective of what happens to

Karelian?

0:40:170:40:20

We understand that is the case.

Which this is a technical issue,

0:40:200:40:24

there is a great deal of detail, but

we understand the work is secure and

0:40:240:40:31

that is of great importance. And it

is important to the workers on the

0:40:310:40:35

project because it is a big project

that has been going on for a long

0:40:350:40:39

time.

On Brexit, I am keen to get what the

0:40:390:40:44

areas of dissension are. On the

Brexit bill, they seem to be two

0:40:440:40:48

areas. There are detailed

discussions about devolution, but

0:40:480:40:52

there is an issue of principle which

clause 11 of the Withdrawal Bill

0:40:520:40:57

appears to contradict the Scotland

Act and assumes powers should not be

0:40:570:41:04

modifiable when they come to Britain

by the Scottish Government unless it

0:41:040:41:07

is approved by the British

Government. When Theresa May says as

0:41:070:41:13

she is prepared to make amendments,

is she prepared to make amendments

0:41:130:41:17

to that principle?

That is the issue, and it is not

0:41:170:41:23

just the Scottish Government's

position, it is the Scottish

0:41:230:41:26

Parliament's permission, it was

unanimously taken as that view. It

0:41:260:41:31

is the view of the Welsh Government

and of a number of organisations in

0:41:310:41:36

Scotland and it is the view of the

Scottish Conservatives. The UK

0:41:360:41:44

Government have to amend the bill,

amend clause 11 and remove the

0:41:440:41:52

difficulties that the clause

contains. There is no other way for

0:41:520:41:54

this bill to get legislative

consent. We have been promised that,

0:41:540:42:00

David Mundell promised it last year,

Damian Green promised it and it has

0:42:000:42:06

not happened. That is the problem.

They have to make sure it happens

0:42:060:42:10

because without that there is no

approval. I was speaking at a

0:42:100:42:14

conference in Ireland along my Welsh

counterpart and we both made it

0:42:140:42:18

crystal clear from the platform,

without the amendments, there is no

0:42:180:42:23

legislative consent from Wales or

Scotland, and that crazy situation

0:42:230:42:27

with the House of Lords who has to

decide whether they can pass it

0:42:270:42:32

without legislative consent.

What I want to get at is you have

0:42:320:42:36

been having talks with the British

Government. What is the problem?

0:42:360:42:39

Added British Government saying

yeah, we see point?

0:42:390:42:44

The point is conceded, but they have

not amended it. The Welsh Government

0:42:440:42:49

has produced an amendment, a joint

amendment, the first time we have

0:42:490:42:52

ever done about, we put those

forward, the Tories voted it down,

0:42:520:42:58

including the Scottish Tory MPs

voted it down and came along with

0:42:580:43:02

their own amendment. We said as long

as it has the same effect, and we

0:43:020:43:07

can agree it, we will be happy with

that. It has not appeared, we have

0:43:070:43:11

not had it.

I want to be clear on this. As you

0:43:110:43:20

are understanding, the British

Government has accepted the point of

0:43:200:43:22

principle about clause 11 that it

contradicts the Scotland Act opened

0:43:220:43:27

is attending to -- intending to

amend that so powers that are not

0:43:270:43:33

the adult -- that the British

Government had accepted it.

0:43:330:43:38

My understanding is they have

accepted that point but they have to

0:43:380:43:41

produce the words that accept it.

For some reason they are not doing

0:43:410:43:48

so and are being resistant about it

and they have to do it. I am pleased

0:43:480:43:52

that Ruth Davidson has made that

point, we are all making it, but it

0:43:520:43:56

has to be taken by the Prime

Minister and get some action. It is

0:43:560:44:00

absolutely clear that without that

there is no legislative consent.

0:44:000:44:05

You were in Ireland. In a speech

there, you talked about how you and

0:44:050:44:14

your Government would like Britain

and Scotland to remain in the

0:44:140:44:18

customs union, single market, and

you said that is a minimum fall us.

0:44:180:44:24

Is this it is a different issue? You

are not saying you will will pass

0:44:240:44:31

this until we can stay in the single

market?

0:44:310:44:34

These are not the same issue. In

Ireland, a wide-ranging discussion

0:44:340:44:41

with people including Arlene Foster

and the leader of the main

0:44:410:44:44

opposition party, we were discussing

the wider issues of Brexit, and this

0:44:440:44:47

was also in the area of the paper

that the Government will publish

0:44:470:44:53

tomorrow.

0:44:530:45:01

tomorrow. There is this Canada plus

trade deal, and the point we are

0:45:010:45:04

making is it is bad enough to have

to leave. We do not think it is a

0:45:040:45:08

good idea, it will be damaging. The

least bad option is continued

0:45:080:45:14

membership of the single market and

the customs union. That is, anything

0:45:140:45:19

beyond that, it will be problematic.

Even that will have its

0:45:190:45:22

difficulties.

0:45:220:45:28

difficulties. People have been

watching this programme in the last

0:45:280:45:30

20 minutes and heard lots of

nonsense from the Labour Party. It

0:45:300:45:33

is possible and it has to happen to

protect Scotland's interests.

0:45:330:45:39

This is a separate issue from

whether you would recommend the

0:45:390:45:44

Scottish Parliament passed a motion

of legislative consent, that is the

0:45:440:45:46

crucial point.

The motion is a process of

0:45:460:45:52

negotiation that has been underway

since July and still be Tories have

0:45:520:45:57

not done what they need to do. I

can't understand it, though it is

0:45:570:46:02

typical of the chaos within the UK

Government.

0:46:020:46:06

You have complained about the fact

that the amendments were not brought

0:46:060:46:12

forward when the bill was before the

House of Commons. Given the failure

0:46:120:46:16

to bring forward the amendments and

the Scottish secretary David Mundell

0:46:160:46:22

promised to bring them forward, is

his position untenable?

0:46:220:46:28

his position untenable?

-- untenable?

0:46:280:46:32

If they do not come forward in a way

that is... David rang me on

0:46:320:46:39

Wednesday to tell me we were in a

situation where he could not bring

0:46:390:46:45

the report stage, despite a clear

assurance it would happen. The House

0:46:450:46:51

of Lords is not elected and we do

not have representatives there, so

0:46:510:46:56

there is considerable difficulties

in the matter. He will have to

0:46:560:47:00

continue to steer it forward, but so

far he has not steered it very far.

0:47:000:47:05

Have you identified a peer who can

act in your interests in the House

0:47:050:47:08

of Lords?

There are a number of peers who are

0:47:080:47:14

going to speak on this and I will be

speaking to, briefing members of the

0:47:140:47:20

House of Lords over the next

fortnight and there will be peers

0:47:200:47:23

who make this point. The legislative

procedures of the House of Commons

0:47:230:47:28

and House of Lords are pretty

arcane. It will appear in various

0:47:280:47:32

stages in the next couple of months.

We will also be in bridging the

0:47:320:47:38

House of Lords to bring forward the

type of amendment that the Welsh and

0:47:380:47:41

Scottish governments drew up and put

the House of Commons, which was

0:47:410:47:45

actually put by all the other

parties in the House of Commons,

0:47:450:47:48

they joined together to propose the

amendments that the two governments

0:47:480:47:53

had brought in. It was the Tories

that voted it down. We hope in the

0:47:530:47:58

House of Lords there will be a

majority for that.

0:47:580:48:03

Nicola Sturgeon said the prospect of

a second referendum on membership of

0:48:030:48:08

the EU may become irresistible, but

then she said she was not

0:48:080:48:12

campaigning for it. If it is

irresistible, we also know that your

0:48:120:48:21

Government had meetings with Willie

Rennie who are campaigning for a

0:48:210:48:25

second referendum. He says it did

not get a clear response. Why are

0:48:250:48:30

you not campaigning for a second

referendum?

0:48:300:48:33

It is clearly not the time where

that would take place. At the

0:48:330:48:37

present moment, there is absolute

confusion about what will take

0:48:370:48:41

place. The three options for

leaving, the UK Government has not

0:48:410:48:45

preferred what it prefers. The EU 27

I tried to be more specific, but

0:48:450:48:52

what was agreed last year before

talks of the trade issues in March

0:48:520:48:56

this year. The First Minister is

right to say that the people are

0:48:560:49:02

important, the people of Scotland

and the UK will want to say

0:49:020:49:08

something about this. Our view is

that we have to address those issues

0:49:080:49:12

and we will address them with the

Liberal Democrats, there are

0:49:120:49:16

questions to be answered about what

would happen if Scotland voted,

0:49:160:49:21

continued to revote to remain and

the rest of the UK voted to leave.

0:49:210:49:27

A discussion is underway. It is not

been ruled out.

0:49:270:49:31

You say it has not been ruled out.

One of the points that Jim Sellers

0:49:310:49:35

has been making is that it was a UK

referendum, it was understood that

0:49:350:49:40

the British people would be

accepted, their decision. If you

0:49:400:49:45

start the campaign for another

referendum, you could be staring up

0:49:450:49:49

all sorts of problems if you have

another independence referendum,

0:49:490:49:55

what would you say to him?

0:49:550:50:00

I would tell him he had not

understood something. The vote in

0:50:000:50:06

Scotland was sold to save as late

against leaving. -- decisively. All

0:50:060:50:13

the opinion polls has shown that

this has grown, there is a

0:50:130:50:20

democratic swell in Scotland there

does not want to be taken out of the

0:50:200:50:24

EU.

0:50:240:50:30

EU.

We will have to leave it there.

You will be glad, although it is

0:50:300:50:36

beautiful, it looks as if you are

freezing.

It is cold.

0:50:360:50:39

Listening to that and with me now

is the Scottish Conservative's

0:50:390:50:42

constitution spokesperson Adam

Tomkins.

0:50:420:50:47

Is David Mundell's position tenable?

Of course it is. What has happened

0:50:470:50:53

this week is what I have described

as a deeply frustrating and

0:50:530:50:58

disappointing delay. There is no

change of direction or policy by the

0:50:580:51:03

British government. They will amend

the bill. We had hoped to be able to

0:51:030:51:09

do that in the House of Commons. It

has turned out not to be possible to

0:51:090:51:17

do that. We will have to do it in

the House of Lords rather than the

0:51:170:51:22

House of Commons.

Is Mike Russell

correct, he says the British

0:51:220:51:26

government has accepted that this

contentious clause 11, explain to

0:51:260:51:31

people, this is the clause that

seems to contradict the Scotland

0:51:310:51:35

act. Mike Russell says the British

government has accepted it needs to

0:51:350:51:38

be amended to restore, if you like,

the spirit of the originals Scotland

0:51:380:51:44

act.

Is that your understanding?

Let's be clear about what we are

0:51:440:51:49

talking about, there are 111 powers

exercised the EU level which fall in

0:51:490:51:54

the devolved confidence of the

Scottish Government. The question is

0:51:540:51:58

what happens to those powers when we

leave the European Union? Do they

0:51:580:52:03

come to Scotland or Westminster?

The

basic issue is that things are

0:52:030:52:08

assumed to be devolved in the

Scotland act or the opposite.

There

0:52:080:52:13

is a fundamental principle on which

Scottish devolution rests and has

0:52:130:52:17

rested since its creature in 20

years ago, that everything is

0:52:170:52:21

devolved unless it is expressly

reserved. That is where the clause

0:52:210:52:26

has to be amended to be clear. That

is the position not just of the SNP,

0:52:260:52:32

it is the position of everybody in a

Scottish Government. It is the

0:52:320:52:39

position of a committee I sit in, it

is relatively easy to be done. The

0:52:390:52:44

reason why there is a hold-up is

because it is important that some of

0:52:440:52:48

those powers, not all of them, but a

minority of powers are exercised by

0:52:480:52:53

Holyrood, subject to UK weight

elements.

But that seems to be

0:52:530:53:03

accepted by the SNP as well. For

example on farming. They do not seem

0:53:030:53:09

to...

The accept. I have always said

a deal can be struck on this issue.

0:53:090:53:15

Both governments want consent. Both

the United Kingdom government and

0:53:150:53:20

the Scottish Government want to be

in a position whereby Holyrood can

0:53:200:53:23

give its consent to this legislation

so we can have a smooth Brexit. And

0:53:230:53:27

both governments accept that there

will be a need for what are cold

0:53:270:53:32

Common frameworks. Across the whole

of the UK or across Great Britain as

0:53:320:53:35

the case may be. That will govern

how some of these powers, not all of

0:53:350:53:42

them, but how some of these powers

will be exercised. That is a

0:53:420:53:46

principle agreement but the reason

for the delay is because there is

0:53:460:53:50

quite a lot of detailed work going

on about what happens in the event

0:53:500:53:54

of a breach of those common

frameworks. Let's see there is a

0:53:540:53:58

common framework and agriculture.

And Scottish ministers... Your

0:53:580:54:03

argument is that the Supreme Court

could have a real in that?

There is

0:54:030:54:06

a discussion going on between

governments about what the

0:54:060:54:10

appropriate mechanism will be for

reviewing such disagreements and

0:54:100:54:14

resolving such disagreements. That

is the kind of level of detail that

0:54:140:54:19

we are talking about. We had hoped

that we would resolve all of these

0:54:190:54:22

issues in December. We are still

committed to resolving them.

Let's

0:54:220:54:30

see the Scottish Government refuses

to pass our legislative consent

0:54:300:54:34

motion. What are the implications of

that?

I don't think that will

0:54:340:54:38

happen. I hope that will not happen.

For all of the reasons I have sought

0:54:380:54:43

to explain that we can resolve this

issue without coming to that. We are

0:54:430:54:48

talking about hypotheticals. If it

comes to that, and then as the

0:54:480:54:52

minister said, the House of Lords

will have to decide whether it wants

0:54:520:54:56

to go ahead with this bill are not.

Legislative consent is not a legal

0:54:560:55:02

requirement for this legislation to

be enacted by Westminster, but it is

0:55:020:55:07

probably a political requirement and

the political price of enacting

0:55:070:55:12

legislation without consent might be

quite significant indeed. But I do

0:55:120:55:15

not think it will come to this.

Meaning what? If it falls, it will

0:55:150:55:21

be difficult to the liver Brexit at

all. I do not think it is...

-- till

0:55:210:55:28

over. You do not think it is going

to happen. Why would it be duller --

0:55:280:55:35

difficult to deliver Brexit?

After a

set day, is that legislation is not

0:55:350:55:42

passed, there will not be any

legislation to make sense of the

0:55:420:55:46

statute book.

Let's say the

legislation is passed but with the

0:55:460:55:50

consent motion.

There will be a

political argument between the

0:55:500:55:54

Scottish Government and the United

Kingdom government.

I don't want to

0:55:540:55:57

put words in their ice, I can

imagine some Conservative MPs seem

0:55:570:56:03

from the shires in England saying,

this is not a legal requirement, the

0:56:030:56:08

SNP, we know what they are about. It

it does not matter, they can decide

0:56:080:56:14

to disagree, it will not matter.

What would you say? It will be

0:56:140:56:19

irrelevant. This is going to be

dealt with in the House of Lords not

0:56:190:56:23

the House of Commons. We are

getting, we are several steps ahead

0:56:230:56:28

of ourselves here, there is no

reason that any of these things will

0:56:280:56:31

happen. Both governments are

committed to a resolution to this

0:56:310:56:35

issue. There is a relatively easy

solution to find, both governments

0:56:350:56:39

are committed to the idea there

should be some common frameworks

0:56:390:56:43

using these powers after we have

left the European Union and we are

0:56:430:56:47

in the process now of bottoming out

what those common frameworks will

0:56:470:56:50

look like, how they will be

negotiated and then hope they will

0:56:500:56:54

be put...

Just to save time, instead

of you repeating it, I will repeat

0:56:540:57:01

on your behalf, you do not think it

will come to this. I am struck by

0:57:010:57:08

using that our legislative consent

motion not being passed, somehow

0:57:080:57:12

Brexit cannot happen.

What do you

mean by that? If this... Brexit

0:57:120:57:18

cannot happen until this legislation

is passed or an equivalent of this

0:57:180:57:23

legislation being passed. This is

not an accident, this legislation is

0:57:230:57:29

needed to deliver a legally secure

Brexit. That is the bill. Why? It

0:57:290:57:37

does not have to happen as a matter

of law. It is a constitutional

0:57:370:57:41

principle that the UK Government

will not legislate on matters that

0:57:410:57:45

fall within the scope of the

devolved confidence of the Scottish

0:57:450:57:49

Government without the Scottish

Government's consent. That is an

0:57:490:57:54

important principle. It has always

been adhered to and we would expect

0:57:540:57:58

it would be adhered to in the

future.

If that legislative consent

0:57:580:58:02

motion is not passed and this bill

comes back to the House of Commons,

0:58:020:58:08

with the Scottish Conservative MPs

support...?

We are building

0:58:080:58:16

hypothetical upon hypothetical. It

is not my job to tell Scottish MPs

0:58:160:58:19

how to vote.

Anything that happens

in the future is by any sense

0:58:190:58:25

hypothetical stop I do not think any

of these things will happen.

There

0:58:250:58:29

is a vision of the future were none

of these things occur. We are

0:58:290:58:34

nowhere near any of these things

occurring at the moment. Let's focus

0:58:340:58:38

on what we can manage. We can manage

an agreement between the two

0:58:380:58:43

governments about how this

legislation needs to be amended in

0:58:430:58:46

order to ensure that MSPs like me

can give our consent to it in due

0:58:460:58:53

course.

Do you accept mate Russell

saying, he did not say, that he is

0:58:530:59:00

in fact negotiating in good faith?

-- Mike Russell. You do not think

0:59:000:59:05

the Scottish Government will come

and say we will add other things

0:59:050:59:08

before we agree?

I was elected to

the Scottish Government 1.5 years

0:59:080:59:14

ago. It is my job to be suspicious

of the SNP and be a winner of the

0:59:140:59:21

tricks they are up to.

0:59:210:59:27

tricks they are up to. They are good

cordial working relationships and

0:59:270:59:28

there is no reason to suspect anyone

is working in bad faith towards

0:59:280:59:32

this.

Adam Tomkins, thank you very

much indeed.

0:59:320:59:37

Politics has been coming over

all green this week.

0:59:370:59:40

Just as the Prime Minister revealed

the UK Government's new 25-year

0:59:400:59:42

environmental strategy,

the Scottish Government pulled a ban

0:59:420:59:45

on plastic cotton buds out

of its eco-friendly bag.

0:59:450:59:48

And there's more to come,

with talk of a "latte levy"

0:59:480:59:51

and a money-back scheme

for plastic bottles.

0:59:510:59:52

Even Donald Trump was trying

to convince us this week that

0:59:520:59:55

he's the new Swampy.

0:59:550:59:58

But how much of this is simply

the greenwashing of politics,

0:59:581:00:01

to borrow a trendy phrase?

1:00:011:00:03

Policies which may be

laudable in themselves,

1:00:031:00:05

but do nothing to tackle an economic

system based on

1:00:051:00:07

over-consumption and waste.

1:00:071:00:09

Graham Stewart's been finding out.

1:00:091:00:16

Today, in the Atlantic waters of

Europe, as elsewhere, they have to

1:00:161:00:21

share the ocean with plastic. The

devastating effects of plastic

1:00:211:00:25

waste. Brought home to millions of

viewers. From the Atlantic Ocean to

1:00:251:00:33

Gullane sands and East Lothian,

hundreds of plastic sticks from

1:00:331:00:36

cotton buds washed up on the beach.

They are not the most common plastic

1:00:361:00:42

waste but they can kill marine

animals and the birds that swallow

1:00:421:00:45

them.

Oh my goodness, you have found

a lot of them.

With biodegradable

1:00:451:00:53

alternatives already available, it

is an easy fix for ministers.

There

1:00:531:00:56

are other items that we may want to

look at. This was a relatively

1:00:561:01:01

straightforward one that we could do

pretty quickly and we see no reason

1:01:011:01:05

to delay it. The thing is every

single item needs to be looked at on

1:01:051:01:09

its individual merits because in

some cases it would be a much more

1:01:091:01:15

difficult thing to achieve. In some

cases it might be that we would not

1:01:151:01:18

have the powers to do it.

Another

measure being considered as a levy

1:01:181:01:24

on disposable coffee cups. At this

cafe in Edinburgh, the use coffee

1:01:241:01:30

cups which biodegrade along food

waste in less than six months.

The

1:01:301:01:34

more that we are becoming interested

in the environmental impact that

1:01:341:01:40

everything has, how sustainable we

want to be, people turning vegan,

1:01:401:01:45

people using local businesses,

everyone is becoming interested in

1:01:451:01:49

what their impact is, especially on

takeaway food.

It is a massive

1:01:491:01:55

market. Realising that green

policies could be vote winners, the

1:01:551:02:00

First Minister -- Prime Minister

launched a 25 year environmental

1:02:001:02:05

policy.

It is clean and plentiful

water, plants and animals that are

1:02:051:02:08

thriving and dig green and cleaner

country for resolve.

President was

1:02:081:02:15

impersonating a tree hugger this

week. After withdrawing America from

1:02:151:02:18

the Paris climate agreement last

year.

I had a problem with the

1:02:181:02:25

agreement that the side, as usual

they had made a bad deal. We could

1:02:251:02:30

go back in. We are strong on the

environment, I feel strongly about

1:02:301:02:35

the environment.

Politicians can

only do so much. Environmentalism

1:02:351:02:39

starts in the home. Nearly half of

the rubbish generated and Scottish

1:02:391:02:44

homes is being recycled. But as

recycling alone the solution? About

1:02:441:02:48

half of all the plastic we recycle

ends up here, in China. The world

1:02:481:02:54

was my biggest market for household

waste. But no more. From the 1st of

1:02:541:02:59

January China has banned the

importation of all plastic waste

1:02:591:03:02

from around the world.

China quite

understandably does not want to keep

1:03:021:03:06

on taking on more and more volume of

the West's with plastic and plastic

1:03:061:03:11

pollution. I think we have a

responsibility to solve this problem

1:03:111:03:15

at source because just as China does

not want to deal with this problem

1:03:151:03:20

for ever, so our own communities are

not going to accept building more

1:03:201:03:25

incinerators as the other short-term

unsustainable way of getting rid of

1:03:251:03:28

this problem.

As far as my remit was

concerned, recycling should be the

1:03:281:03:34

last resort. It builds up energy,

generates pollution and ultimately

1:03:341:03:37

is not good for the economy.

For

everyone job we see in the

1:03:371:03:41

collection of materials for

recycling, we believe there is

1:03:411:03:44

another eight jobs in repurposing of

those materials back into the

1:03:441:03:49

economy. That is in a way what this

is all about. We want to design at

1:03:491:03:54

an economy here in Scotland and

realise as many jobs as possible. It

1:03:541:03:59

is good for the environment but we

need to start looking at the

1:03:591:04:02

economic possibilities.

This company

take low value residues from whiskey

1:04:021:04:09

production and turn them into

high-value biofuels, which can be

1:04:091:04:15

put into cars. Although the company

has benefited from government grants

1:04:151:04:18

it is based on a sound business

proposition.

Celtic renewables has a

1:04:181:04:25

fundamental recycling ethos behind

it in creating value. But that is

1:04:251:04:28

the key value -- word, valuable --

value. There is no charity in this.

1:04:281:04:38

It is about doing something, it is

the right thing to do but it must be

1:04:381:04:44

economically and environmentally

sustainable.

But there is more we

1:04:441:04:46

can do to reduce waste. Take the

scourge of plastic bottles, nearly

1:04:461:04:51

40 million are used in the UK every

day, with only half making it to

1:04:511:04:56

recycling. Tackling that will

require a cultural shift.

In Paris

1:04:561:05:01

they provide water fountains note or

the give you carbonated water to

1:05:011:05:07

drink and go. So we can be

innovative around not just the

1:05:071:05:11

technologies and finding new types

of plastics that biodegrade, that

1:05:111:05:14

can perform better as packaging, but

we also need to be thinking about

1:05:141:05:20

reducing the amount of plastic.

Tesco this week became the first

1:05:201:05:23

major supermarket to throw its

weight behind the idea of a deposit

1:05:231:05:27

and return scheme for plastic

bottles. But for those of us who

1:05:271:05:31

remember cashing in ginger bottles

for a sweetie money back in the day,

1:05:311:05:35

a lot of this trendy green thinking

seem strangely familiar.

1:05:351:05:39

That was Graham Stewart reporting.

1:05:401:05:42

Now it's time to take

a look back at events

1:05:421:05:44

and forward to the week ahead.

1:05:441:05:50

With me this week are Lynsey Bews

from the Press Association

1:05:501:05:53

and the columnist Kevin McKenna.

1:05:531:05:54

Welcome both.

1:05:541:05:59

Brexit, I think we have learned

something this morning. We have...

1:05:591:06:08

The Scottish Government wants the

clause 11, the nature of devolution

1:06:081:06:11

clause amended, the British

Government has accepted that it was

1:06:111:06:17

a mistake and it will amended, and

we have learned that the Scottish

1:06:171:06:22

Government, the SNP, make the whole

question of the single market and

1:06:221:06:27

customs union completely separate

from whether they will pass a

1:06:271:06:31

legislative consent in the Scottish

garment. As long as clause 11 as

1:06:311:06:35

amended, even if we leave the single

market and customs union, they will

1:06:351:06:40

get the Scottish moment to pass it.

That seemed to be what Mike Russell

1:06:401:06:43

were saying and he was saying that

the UK Government had conceded the

1:06:431:06:49

point the Scottish Government had

made an clause 11 and it had not

1:06:491:06:53

produced that amendment yet. If it

is as straightforward as that, it

1:06:531:06:57

makes us wonder why it has taken so

long. So we are all wondering where

1:06:571:07:04

is this amendment?

This clause is a one sentence, about

1:07:041:07:11

four lines.

And Scottish Tories are trying to

1:07:111:07:14

blame it on the complexities

involved and think the officials

1:07:141:07:17

should be more aware.

Adams, -- Adam Tomkins...

1:07:171:07:26

I think David Mundell has to take

some responsibility for not keeping

1:07:261:07:29

to the promise.

If this is all the case, it seems a

1:07:291:07:37

terribly small problem to resolve

for which there has been an endless

1:07:371:07:40

amount of force.

And it begs the question as what

1:07:401:07:45

David Mundell is for. This is not

that he had to deliver. Anybody in

1:07:451:07:52

the street watching that sees the

SNP, the Government saying the UK

1:07:521:07:58

Government agrees with us an clause

11, however, we are not confident

1:07:581:08:02

that they weren't muddy the waters

further. And then you have Adam

1:08:021:08:09

Tomkins saying, our position is

exactly the same as the SNP, but I

1:08:091:08:13

don't think there will be any

problem whatsoever. As you pointed

1:08:131:08:18

out, it is a tiny clause in the

scheme of things and fairly simple

1:08:181:08:22

to grasp, which has not often been

the case with anything else with

1:08:221:08:27

Brexit, so people say get it sorted,

this is what pay you to do.

1:08:271:08:35

The politics maybe not so

straightforward because one view

1:08:351:08:39

would be as soon as the Scottish

Government agrees to pass a

1:08:391:08:42

legislative consent motion on this,

even though it is on the narrow

1:08:421:08:48

issue of the clause, that is their

leveraged gone on anything else like

1:08:481:08:52

the single market customs union.

That is their leverage gone, the one

1:08:521:08:58

thing they can threaten the UK

Government with.

1:08:581:09:01

There is a debate around whether

that has the ability to throw a

1:09:011:09:08

massive spanner into the works and

derail Brexit, and many people have

1:09:081:09:12

said that would not be the case.

Adam Tomkins themed to think it

1:09:121:09:17

might.

He was talking about the political

1:09:171:09:22

side of it not being passed and the

Withdrawal Bill not being passed.

1:09:221:09:26

The option would be for the bill to

be passed without the LCM and Brexit

1:09:261:09:31

to go ahead anyway. That is where

the leveraged comes from. It is

1:09:311:09:37

difficult to play that leverage if

you say we are here to negotiate in

1:09:371:09:42

good faith and if you deliver, we

will pass the LCM.

1:09:421:09:45

I think Adam has delivered the

splash for tomorrow's front pages,

1:09:451:09:52

with the difficulties he sees if

there is no legislative consent

1:09:521:09:59

forthcoming.

The most of us thought

we will find a way, or the

1:09:591:10:07

Government would not allow that to

derail whatever agreement we have,

1:10:071:10:11

but here we have a senior member of

the Conservative opposition in

1:10:111:10:16

Scotland, one of its smartest

operators, saying...

1:10:161:10:20

His years will be burning.

There will be a major problem, by

1:10:201:10:24

the way. I thought there is the most

significant part of the interview

1:10:241:10:28

and I think it will dominate a lot

of exchanges in Holyrood in the next

1:10:281:10:33

week or so.

Second referendum? The SNP perhaps

1:10:331:10:41

for understandable reasons, they

want to keep saying it might happen,

1:10:411:10:44

but they do not want to commit

themselves to campaigning forehead.

1:10:441:10:48

I think the idea of a second

referendum, I think it is seen by

1:10:481:10:53

many people as distraction from the

other issues surrounding what kind

1:10:531:10:58

of deal the UK Government is going

to achieve and I think a second

1:10:581:11:03

referendum still looks very

unlikely, though slightly less

1:11:031:11:07

unlikely since the general election

last year. It still does not have a

1:11:071:11:14

huge amount of momentum behind it.

What do you think of that?

1:11:141:11:18

Are we talking about an independence

referendum?

1:11:181:11:22

Know, a second EU referendum. Nicola

Sturgeon was talking of another EU

1:11:221:11:30

referendum.

The SNP can not have their cake and

1:11:301:11:32

eat it. How can you say it could

become it was -- irresistible, but

1:11:321:11:46

I'm not going to campaign for it?

Come on, we are not stupid, that is

1:11:461:11:51

the opening salvo of a campaign.

Problems in the NHS. You want to

1:11:511:12:00

insult GPs the length and breadth of

Scotland?

1:12:001:12:07

Scotland?

I have much admiration. I would like

1:12:071:12:12

them to be fully part of the NHS,

currently they get pensions from the

1:12:121:12:17

NHS, they get IT support, but they

are allowed to roam their surgeries

1:12:171:12:23

as arrive at enterprises, and

ordinary people are asking these

1:12:231:12:26

questions, when you have so much

pressure on the NHS in the winter,

1:12:261:12:31

you have GPs surgeries should far

days at Christmas, that would not be

1:12:311:12:36

happening if they had NHS contracts.

I am only writing what I am

1:12:361:12:41

listening to and hearing.

Should we be talking more about it?

1:12:411:12:47

It sounds like David Cameron, but it

was him who kept going on about

1:12:471:12:55

24-hour NHS. It is odd we have

surgeries shook down at the time

1:12:551:13:04

when people most need them.

That is putting the extra pressure

1:13:041:13:06

on the front door of the hospital,

the A&E units, and we have seen

1:13:061:13:12

health boards ask GP surgeries to

open on Saturdays to try and ease

1:13:121:13:16

the pressure that seems to be one

tactic. That is about getting GPs to

1:13:161:13:20

sign up to that. I would like to see

the Health Secretary train take the

1:13:201:13:25

BMA over with Kevin's IDE. -- idea.

The idea was they were independent.

1:13:251:13:34

He said he was going to have to

stuff the consultants' mouths with

1:13:341:13:41

money.

We're out of time. Thank very much

1:13:411:13:46

indeed.

1:13:461:13:46

That's all from the us this week.

1:13:461:13:47

I'll be back at the

same time next week.

1:13:471:13:50

Until then, goodbye.

1:13:501:13:53

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