Browse content similar to 25/02/2018. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Coming up and today's programme,
having knocked cabinet heads | 0:00:50 | 0:00:54 | |
together Theresa May lays out her
plan for Brexit, but can she keep a | 0:00:54 | 0:00:58 | |
low party onside? We will be
speaking to a former Tory leader. | 0:00:58 | 0:01:02 | |
Waiting in the wings is this man but
can Jeremy Corbyn unite opposing | 0:01:02 | 0:01:08 | |
forces in his own party, and
convince the electorate he would do | 0:01:08 | 0:01:11 | |
a better job Brexit?
Forthcoming local elections in | 0:01:11 | 0:01:14 | |
England should give a clue about
outcomes of the two parties. | 0:01:14 | 0:01:22 | |
And on Sunday Politics Scotland,
I'll be asking the Scottish Higher | 0:01:22 | 0:01:25 | |
Education Minister whether strikes
by university lecturers over | 0:01:25 | 0:01:27 | |
pensions are symptomatic
of a bigger funding problem. | 0:01:27 | 0:01:33 | |
All that coming up in the programme. | 0:01:33 | 0:01:38 | |
And as usual, we've got three
Westminster insiders who will take | 0:01:38 | 0:01:41 | |
us behind the headlines and tell us
what's really going on. | 0:01:41 | 0:01:44 | |
Today I'm joined by Iain Dale,
Kate McCann and Steve Richards. | 0:01:44 | 0:01:46 | |
Next month, Theresa May
will begin formal negotiations | 0:01:46 | 0:01:49 | |
with her European counterparts
on what the future EU-UK | 0:01:49 | 0:01:52 | |
relationship should look like. | 0:01:52 | 0:01:55 | |
This week, she will lay
out her vision of life after Brexit | 0:01:55 | 0:02:00 | |
and she'll declare that our "best
days really do lie ahead of us". | 0:02:00 | 0:02:03 | |
EU leaders beg to differ though,
and have already taken | 0:02:03 | 0:02:06 | |
some pre-emptive swipes. | 0:02:06 | 0:02:07 | |
But, while the talk is likely
to get tough in Brussels, | 0:02:07 | 0:02:10 | |
the key battles could be
played out closer to home. | 0:02:10 | 0:02:12 | |
It's known as the Brexit war
committee, but the smiles suggested | 0:02:13 | 0:02:17 | |
an outbreak of peace among
the Cabinet's big beasts. | 0:02:17 | 0:02:20 | |
For now, at least. | 0:02:20 | 0:02:23 | |
They'd arrived at Chequers,
the Prime Minister's country | 0:02:24 | 0:02:27 | |
retreat, on Thursday afternoon,
to try and agree a common position | 0:02:27 | 0:02:30 | |
for the next round of Brexit talks. | 0:02:30 | 0:02:33 | |
Eight hours later, ministers
were apparently still smiling, | 0:02:33 | 0:02:39 | |
having agreed on something called
ambitious managed divergences | 0:02:39 | 0:02:42 | |
and future trade with the EU. | 0:02:42 | 0:02:43 | |
One of those present
said the Prime Minister | 0:02:43 | 0:02:46 | |
had played a blinder,
but will it be enough to hold | 0:02:46 | 0:02:48 | |
the whole party together? | 0:02:48 | 0:02:51 | |
Earlier in the week,
a letter from the pro-Brexit | 0:02:51 | 0:02:54 | |
European reform group found its way
into the newspapers, | 0:02:54 | 0:02:58 | |
politely reminding the Prime
Minister that when we leave, | 0:02:58 | 0:03:00 | |
nothing but full regulatory autonomy
will be good enough. | 0:03:00 | 0:03:05 | |
But it's Remain-minded Tories
who could throw a real | 0:03:05 | 0:03:07 | |
spanner in the works. | 0:03:07 | 0:03:08 | |
Conservative MP Anna Soubry
announced on Thursday she had... | 0:03:08 | 0:03:16 | |
"Tabled a new amendment to the trade
bill to force the government to form | 0:03:20 | 0:03:23 | |
a customs union with the EU". | 0:03:23 | 0:03:24 | |
27 other EU countries also
need to be won over. | 0:03:24 | 0:03:27 | |
Brexit Secretary David Davis
was in Vienna on Tuesday, | 0:03:27 | 0:03:29 | |
colourfully describing what Brexit
will not look like. | 0:03:29 | 0:03:31 | |
They fear that Brexit will lead
to an Anglo-Saxon race | 0:03:31 | 0:03:35 | |
to the bottom, with Britain plunged
into a Mad Max style world borrowed | 0:03:35 | 0:03:39 | |
from dystopian fiction. | 0:03:39 | 0:03:43 | |
These fears about a race
to the bottom are based on nothing. | 0:03:43 | 0:03:47 | |
But the EU are not convinced. | 0:03:47 | 0:03:50 | |
European Council President Donald
Tusk arguing that the UK | 0:03:50 | 0:03:53 | |
was still trying to
cherry pick its future | 0:03:53 | 0:03:55 | |
relationship with the EU. | 0:03:55 | 0:03:56 | |
I'm afraid that the UK position
today is based on pure illusion. | 0:03:56 | 0:04:02 | |
Until now, Jeremy Corbyn
has played his Brexit | 0:04:02 | 0:04:05 | |
cards close to his chest. | 0:04:05 | 0:04:09 | |
He may begin to reveal his hand
in a major speech tomorrow and this | 0:04:09 | 0:04:13 | |
week he unusually raised Brexit
at Prime Minister's Questions. | 0:04:13 | 0:04:17 | |
This government isn't on the road
to Brexit, Mr Speaker, | 0:04:17 | 0:04:20 | |
it's on the road to nowhere. | 0:04:20 | 0:04:21 | |
Can I congratulate the right
honourable gentleman, | 0:04:21 | 0:04:26 | |
because normally he stands up
every week and asks me | 0:04:26 | 0:04:28 | |
to sign a blank cheque. | 0:04:28 | 0:04:31 | |
And I know he likes cheques, but,
really, that is terribly... | 0:04:31 | 0:04:34 | |
That was a reference to reports
that the Labour leader had held | 0:04:34 | 0:04:38 | |
meetings with the former
Czechoslovakian spy in the 1980s. | 0:04:38 | 0:04:42 | |
Mr Corbyn hit back at those reports
with a social media video, | 0:04:42 | 0:04:45 | |
in which he said rather cryptically,
"Change is coming to | 0:04:45 | 0:04:48 | |
the newspaper industry". | 0:04:48 | 0:04:50 | |
Publishing these ridiculous smears
that have been refuted by Czech | 0:04:50 | 0:04:54 | |
officials shows just how worried
the media bosses are at the prospect | 0:04:54 | 0:04:57 | |
of a Labour government. | 0:04:57 | 0:04:58 | |
They are right to be. | 0:04:58 | 0:05:03 | |
Tory MP Ben Bradley had to apologise
to Mr Corbyn over a tweet | 0:05:03 | 0:05:06 | |
about the allegations, saying... | 0:05:06 | 0:05:09 | |
But it wasn't all Brexit
and brush passes. | 0:05:18 | 0:05:22 | |
The Prime Minister began
the week announcing a review | 0:05:22 | 0:05:24 | |
into higher education. | 0:05:24 | 0:05:25 | |
We now have one of the most
expensive systems of university | 0:05:25 | 0:05:28 | |
tuition in the world. | 0:05:28 | 0:05:29 | |
Theresa May wants to demonstrate
her government isn't | 0:05:29 | 0:05:31 | |
simply defined by Brexit,
but navigating the complications | 0:05:31 | 0:05:37 | |
of leaving the EU is
an all consuming task. | 0:05:37 | 0:05:40 | |
If she can avoid it
consuming her career, that | 0:05:40 | 0:05:42 | |
could be her greatest achievement. | 0:05:42 | 0:05:45 | |
Steve, Kate and Iain
were watching that with me. | 0:05:46 | 0:05:49 | |
Let's chew over what has been
happening this week. People saying | 0:05:52 | 0:05:56 | |
that meeting at Chequers, the Prime
Minister played a blinder and got | 0:05:56 | 0:05:59 | |
the Cabinet to agree. Outside the
Cabinet, it looks like she is | 0:05:59 | 0:06:02 | |
assaulted on all sides by
pro-Brexit, pro had Brexit Tory MPs, | 0:06:02 | 0:06:09 | |
the EU, it's not as easy as all
that? It is never going to be easy | 0:06:09 | 0:06:14 | |
for a Prime Minister who hasn't got
a Parliamentary majority. She is | 0:06:14 | 0:06:17 | |
very resilient. Whenever she's
knocked down, she bounces back | 0:06:17 | 0:06:20 | |
again. I think she has had quite a
reasonable week this week, starting | 0:06:20 | 0:06:24 | |
off on the front foot and tuition
fees and ending the week with the | 0:06:24 | 0:06:27 | |
meeting at Chequers. I think a lot
of commentators thought it was going | 0:06:27 | 0:06:31 | |
to be a disaster, that they would
agree on the way board. The proof in | 0:06:31 | 0:06:35 | |
the pudding will be on what she says
in the speech on Friday. We have | 0:06:35 | 0:06:39 | |
Jeremy Corbyn mandates and
effectively she has to up with | 0:06:39 | 0:06:43 | |
probably quite a lot more detail
than she has done in the past. I | 0:06:43 | 0:06:46 | |
think they have the basis for that
now. Kate, we've talked a lot on | 0:06:46 | 0:06:50 | |
this programme about the arguments
within the Cabinet but now it looks | 0:06:50 | 0:06:53 | |
like the focus is now on the wider
Conservative Party. You have | 0:06:53 | 0:06:59 | |
probably remain MPs like Anna Soubry
saying they want to stay in the | 0:06:59 | 0:07:01 | |
customs union, a letter from pro
except MPs like Jacob Rees-Mogg | 0:07:01 | 0:07:06 | |
saying they want full regulatory
divergence. Which group is likely to | 0:07:06 | 0:07:10 | |
win the day? I think what is most
interesting this week will be Jeremy | 0:07:10 | 0:07:14 | |
Corbyn's speech on Monday. That
comes before Theresa May's speech on | 0:07:14 | 0:07:18 | |
Friday. That will help tip those two
sites, as it were, and we will see | 0:07:18 | 0:07:23 | |
what will happen with the customs
union. Jeremy Corbyn is likely to | 0:07:23 | 0:07:28 | |
say he would like to stay in a
customs union that is likely to make | 0:07:28 | 0:07:31 | |
the Tory MPs on the Tories I'd like
Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, who | 0:07:31 | 0:07:35 | |
want to back and push for a customs
union feel like they have more | 0:07:35 | 0:07:40 | |
control over that. Whether it is
likely not promote we are yet to | 0:07:40 | 0:07:48 | |
see. If Labour is shifting its
customs union position that much, | 0:07:48 | 0:07:51 | |
that gives Tory MPs a lot more
strength in the House of Commons | 0:07:51 | 0:07:54 | |
because the government has already
pushed back a vote on the customs | 0:07:54 | 0:07:57 | |
union because they are worried about
what is going happen. Those pro | 0:07:57 | 0:08:02 | |
remain Tories on the Labour Party
believe they have the Parliamentary | 0:08:02 | 0:08:06 | |
arithmetic to force a defeat on the
government over the customs union, | 0:08:06 | 0:08:09 | |
are they right about that? Certainly
in theory they are right. There are | 0:08:09 | 0:08:15 | |
enough Conservative MPs and if the
opposition vote for this, the | 0:08:15 | 0:08:21 | |
government faces a defeat with
profound consequences. We will not | 0:08:21 | 0:08:24 | |
know probably until the moment when
the vote takes place. It will be a | 0:08:24 | 0:08:28 | |
moment of one of these great
Parliamentary dramas, where there | 0:08:28 | 0:08:32 | |
will be huge pressure on Tory MPs
not to go along with this and say, | 0:08:32 | 0:08:37 | |
you are in alliance with Jeremy
Corbyn and so on. We won't know | 0:08:37 | 0:08:41 | |
until the vote but in theory they
have the numbers. It would be a game | 0:08:41 | 0:08:44 | |
changer if this amendment was
carried. This is fascinating. It | 0:08:44 | 0:08:48 | |
means the power has gone to the
house of parliament and has left | 0:08:48 | 0:08:51 | |
number ten and the Cabinet, Hilary
Benn described this as a backbencher | 0:08:51 | 0:08:55 | |
's parliament because the government
doesn't have a majority. Is that | 0:08:55 | 0:08:58 | |
where the authority lies now? In
some ideas. I'm not sure if I agree | 0:08:58 | 0:09:03 | |
about the Parliamentary arithmetic
because some will die with the | 0:09:03 | 0:09:06 | |
Conservatives, and we will hear from
one later, Frank Field. There are a | 0:09:06 | 0:09:10 | |
group of them. I wonder about the
numbers on the Tory benches, there | 0:09:10 | 0:09:15 | |
is a hard-core group of about ten or
a dozen that you think might well | 0:09:15 | 0:09:20 | |
support Anna Soubry's amendment but
I don't really see it going much | 0:09:20 | 0:09:24 | |
beyond that. But you are right, it
will be on a bit of a knife edge. If | 0:09:24 | 0:09:28 | |
it came to the government were
defeated on this, then we are in | 0:09:28 | 0:09:33 | |
uncharted waters, because the
government could actually make it a | 0:09:33 | 0:09:34 | |
vote of confidence. It would be very
unusual to do one on an amendment to | 0:09:34 | 0:09:39 | |
a bill but it is possible, or they
could call a vote of confidence that | 0:09:39 | 0:09:42 | |
would put Anna Soubry and all the
others in | 0:09:42 | 0:09:49 | |
others in a bit a tricky position.
If they did vote against the | 0:09:49 | 0:09:51 | |
government on a vote of confidence,
they would have to be deselected. We | 0:09:51 | 0:09:54 | |
will talk about that throughout the
programme. | 0:09:54 | 0:09:56 | |
Listening to all that is the former
Conservative leader, | 0:09:56 | 0:09:58 | |
and leading Brexit campaigner,
Iain Duncan Smith. | 0:09:58 | 0:10:00 | |
Welcome to the programme. Do you
accept there is a significant chance | 0:10:00 | 0:10:03 | |
the government could be defeated on
a customs union in the House of | 0:10:03 | 0:10:06 | |
Commons question when you don't have
a majority there is a chance to be | 0:10:06 | 0:10:11 | |
defeated on anything. I love the way
the media looks at this cost would | 0:10:11 | 0:10:14 | |
take a pace back, it's a government
that won the election and didn't get | 0:10:14 | 0:10:17 | |
an overall majority so it means
almost anything anyone is upset | 0:10:17 | 0:10:20 | |
about could cause a problem for the
government, fact of life. Brexit is | 0:10:20 | 0:10:24 | |
just one, it's a very big issue but
one of those, there has been other | 0:10:24 | 0:10:28 | |
issues and there will be on the
issue is following through. It | 0:10:28 | 0:10:31 | |
matters to you whether we are in a
customs union with the EU? Lots of | 0:10:31 | 0:10:36 | |
things deeply matter to me, beyond
Brexit. But yes. I think the key | 0:10:36 | 0:10:41 | |
thing is not what I believe but the
Prime Minister has been pretty clear | 0:10:41 | 0:10:44 | |
about this from the word go, way
before the election, during the | 0:10:44 | 0:10:48 | |
election importantly and even
subsequently she has made it very | 0:10:48 | 0:10:51 | |
clear we are taking back control,
leaving the customs union, single | 0:10:51 | 0:10:54 | |
market, and at the same time making
sure we get outside of the remit of | 0:10:54 | 0:10:58 | |
the court of justice. She has been
clear about this. | 0:10:58 | 0:11:10 | |
Let's pick a bit of that. In her
Lancaster House speech she said she | 0:11:36 | 0:11:39 | |
wanted us to have a customs
agreement with the EU, not a customs | 0:11:39 | 0:11:42 | |
union but customs agreement. This
controversial amendment Anna Soubry | 0:11:42 | 0:11:43 | |
another Superdome says they want an
agreement that enables the UK to be | 0:11:43 | 0:11:46 | |
able to participate in a customs
union with the EU, is there space | 0:11:46 | 0:11:49 | |
for that? It depends what the detail
is. The government set it out quite | 0:11:49 | 0:11:51 | |
rightly on having a proper free
trade arrang ement. You can describe | 0:11:51 | 0:11:54 | |
a free-trade arrangement in all
different ways but a free-trade | 0:11:54 | 0:11:56 | |
arrangement is about us having a
clear ability to sell-out goods into | 0:11:56 | 0:11:59 | |
the European Union them to sell us
without artificial trade barriers | 0:11:59 | 0:12:00 | |
that will require arrangements that
out customs arrangements. The big | 0:12:00 | 0:12:02 | |
them to sell us without artificial
trade barriers and that will require | 0:12:02 | 0:12:05 | |
arrangements that out customs
arrangements. The behind having a | 0:12:05 | 0:12:07 | |
customs union and being outside a
free-trade arrangement is we are 90% | 0:12:07 | 0:12:09 | |
of the graces in the global economy
in the next two years, we will be | 0:12:09 | 0:12:12 | |
free to do that. If we are in a
customs union, you to make trade | 0:12:12 | 0:12:16 | |
arrangements with America,
Australia, India, where ever we want | 0:12:16 | 0:12:17 | |
to, where 90% of the growth is in
the global economy in the next two | 0:12:17 | 0:12:20 | |
years, we will be free to do that.
If we are in a customs union, you | 0:12:20 | 0:12:23 | |
agree do that and therefore we would
have to what the European Union to | 0:12:23 | 0:12:26 | |
what the European certainly be
outvoted endlessly. This is about | 0:12:26 | 0:12:28 | |
where does the power light and we
would almost certainly be outvoted | 0:12:28 | 0:12:30 | |
endlessly. This is about where does
the with the rest of the world in a | 0:12:30 | 0:12:33 | |
moment but exactly what you
describe, the free-trade arrangement | 0:12:33 | 0:12:35 | |
with no tariffs with the EU and the
freedom to make those deals, that is | 0:12:35 | 0:12:38 | |
what the EU called cherry picking?
What they really called cherry | 0:12:38 | 0:12:40 | |
picking is this arrangement we are
talking about now, a customs union. | 0:12:40 | 0:12:43 | |
They have been pretty clear about
this. They said it is not | 0:12:43 | 0:12:45 | |
acceptable. Let's look at it from
the European Union to make those | 0:12:45 | 0:12:51 | |
agreements? I want to get into the
detail on free-trade deals with the | 0:12:51 | 0:12:53 | |
rest of the world in a moment but
exactly what you describe, the | 0:12:53 | 0:12:56 | |
free-trade arrangement with no
tariffs with the EU and the freedom | 0:12:56 | 0:12:59 | |
to make those deals, that is what
the EU called cherry picking? What | 0:12:59 | 0:13:01 | |
they really called cherry picking is
this arrangement we are talking | 0:13:01 | 0:13:03 | |
about now, a customs union. They
have been pretty clear about this. | 0:13:03 | 0:13:06 | |
They said it is not acceptable.
Let's look at it from the European | 0:13:06 | 0:13:08 | |
Union's standpoint. We constantly
look at what the UK once. You use is | 0:13:08 | 0:13:11 | |
certainly not going to agree going
into a customs union where we will | 0:13:11 | 0:13:13 | |
then have over any future agreement,
so we will outvote all 27 because we | 0:13:13 | 0:13:16 | |
that would depend on the agreement.
... That would depend on the | 0:13:16 | 0:13:18 | |
agreement. The EU wants would have
enormous power against them, they an | 0:13:18 | 0:13:21 | |
agreement, we would have enormous
power against them, they won't agree | 0:13:21 | 0:13:23 | |
because it is not in their interests
to do I think what is more in | 0:13:23 | 0:13:26 | |
arrangement. There are lots of
countries that are already breaking | 0:13:26 | 0:13:29 | |
ranks with the commission about
this, Italy, Sweden, Holland said we | 0:13:29 | 0:13:30 | |
have to have a free-trade
arrangement. They are not on that | 0:13:30 | 0:13:32 | |
yet, they are still on the
implementation phase. When it comes | 0:13:32 | 0:13:35 | |
to free trade, I am very, very
certain that they will want to make | 0:13:35 | 0:13:37 | |
an arrangement with us because it is
in their interests, arguably more | 0:13:37 | 0:13:40 | |
than us. , they want a free-trade
arrangement. There are lots of | 0:13:40 | 0:13:42 | |
countries that are already breaking
ranks with the commission about | 0:13:42 | 0:13:44 | |
this, Italy, Sweden, Holland said we
have to have a free-trade | 0:13:44 | 0:13:46 | |
arrangement. They are not on that
yet, they are still on the | 0:13:46 | 0:13:49 | |
implementation phase. When it comes
to free-trade, I am very, very | 0:13:49 | 0:13:51 | |
certain that they will want to make
an arrangement with us because it is | 0:13:51 | 0:13:54 | |
in their interests, arguably more
than us let's move on to trade with | 0:13:54 | 0:13:56 | |
the rest of the world. Why do so
absolutely convinced that the | 0:13:56 | 0:13:59 | |
ability to do with Australia, China,
the ones the EU has at the, | 0:13:59 | 0:14:01 | |
different from the ones the EU has
at increasing our trade with these | 0:14:01 | 0:14:04 | |
countries from inside the EU? Their
biggest are so terribly important? | 0:14:04 | 0:14:06 | |
Why can't we be increasing our trade
with these countries from inside the | 0:14:06 | 0:14:09 | |
EU? Their biggest free-trade we are
naturally, the UK, more than any | 0:14:09 | 0:14:13 | |
other country in the European
country, arguably more than most in | 0:14:13 | 0:14:15 | |
the world, a free-trade for free
trade the WTO has a ready said they | 0:14:15 | 0:14:20 | |
love the idea of us coming back as a
full voting member because we will | 0:14:20 | 0:14:23 | |
argue for free trade. By, global
free trade and services, which stop | 0:14:23 | 0:14:25 | |
because the European Union has not
wanted to push the site at all. Do | 0:14:25 | 0:14:28 | |
so much more trade with China than
us from within the EU? That is to do | 0:14:28 | 0:14:32 | |
with what Germany says they want to
do and go and do it Germany do so | 0:14:32 | 0:14:35 | |
much more trade with China than us
from within the EU? That is to do | 0:14:35 | 0:14:39 | |
with what Germany says they want to
do and go and do it. Being a member | 0:14:39 | 0:14:41 | |
of the EU has being a member of the
EU be outside the that so why do we | 0:14:41 | 0:14:46 | |
have to be outside you get rid of
artificial tarry that is not | 0:14:46 | 0:14:52 | |
parallel argument. By getting trade
arrangements you get rid of | 0:14:52 | 0:14:54 | |
artificial and delays at the borders
that allows you to increase your | 0:14:54 | 0:14:56 | |
trade. We want from where we are.
But at the same time, incoming stuff | 0:14:56 | 0:15:00 | |
is just as important. The people who
will benefit most from a free-trade | 0:15:00 | 0:15:05 | |
arrangement of the poorest in
society because the cost of food, | 0:15:05 | 0:15:08 | |
footwear and clothing will almost
certainly our trade from where we | 0:15:08 | 0:15:13 | |
are. But at the same time, incoming
stuff is just as important. | 0:15:13 | 0:15:24 | |
You might as much larger and more
important market. The skill is not | 0:15:25 | 0:15:29 | |
that important. The key thing is, do
you value a marketplace, is it worth | 0:15:29 | 0:15:34 | |
doing business with? Financial
services is an important are great | 0:15:34 | 0:15:38 | |
-- an important area you want to
strike agreements with. The UK's | 0:15:38 | 0:15:42 | |
dominant in financial services and
you cannot get a free-trade | 0:15:42 | 0:15:45 | |
agreement within the single market
at the moment. You cannot sell | 0:15:45 | 0:15:49 | |
insurance in Germany without having
a company in Germany to sell it. | 0:15:49 | 0:15:57 | |
They have never wanted to do
financial service is free trade. We | 0:15:57 | 0:16:00 | |
will be in a much better state
globally. You have seen the increase | 0:16:00 | 0:16:02 | |
in New Zealand's trade when they
went for free-trade and got rid of | 0:16:02 | 0:16:05 | |
their trade barriers. A dramatic
increase in no global position. The | 0:16:05 | 0:16:09 | |
tragedy led to this and they reckon
a free-trade deal with America we | 0:16:09 | 0:16:16 | |
did 0.02% to the UK's GDP. I have a
bone to pick with the BBC. There has | 0:16:16 | 0:16:24 | |
been a brilliant economic report are
independent, which has been given | 0:16:24 | 0:16:29 | |
very little coverage which is taken
apart the model that the Treasury | 0:16:29 | 0:16:32 | |
and the government put together. For
example, dealing with this. The | 0:16:32 | 0:16:36 | |
reason why you arrive at this, it
depends on what you assume to be the | 0:16:36 | 0:16:40 | |
actual savings on the border. The
government has only assumed a 4% | 0:16:40 | 0:16:44 | |
saving on getting rid of tariff
barriers. Almost every economist in | 0:16:44 | 0:16:48 | |
the world agrees it is nearer to 20%
saving. This study has been covered | 0:16:48 | 0:16:54 | |
on the BBC it was on the Daily
Politics on Friday. It assumes zero | 0:16:54 | 0:16:59 | |
tariffs on absolutely everything. It
is an extremely optimistic forecast. | 0:16:59 | 0:17:04 | |
It assumes a 10% tariff at the end
of the day, it assumes tariffs | 0:17:04 | 0:17:08 | |
falling to an average of 10%, not
zero. If they went to zero it would | 0:17:08 | 0:17:14 | |
improve it even more. I have read
this report backwards. One of the | 0:17:14 | 0:17:19 | |
officers says that while there will
be benefits from free-trade deals, | 0:17:19 | 0:17:23 | |
over time it would be likely we
would mostly eliminate manufacturing | 0:17:23 | 0:17:27 | |
in UK by the things that would be
worth it and it should not us. That | 0:17:27 | 0:17:31 | |
was one of the original suggestions,
much earlier. But he was one of the | 0:17:31 | 0:17:36 | |
authors of this report. He was but
he has accepted this is not going to | 0:17:36 | 0:17:40 | |
be the case within this report.
They're assuming that the border | 0:17:40 | 0:17:44 | |
changes will mean less of a tariff
on the borders at average. That is | 0:17:44 | 0:17:47 | |
what happens in most other
free-trade arrangements. The point | 0:17:47 | 0:17:51 | |
I'm making is it has a massive
benefit to the UK for us to do this. | 0:17:51 | 0:17:56 | |
That is why going for a free-trade
agreement with the European Union is | 0:17:56 | 0:17:58 | |
the right way to go. We forget what
Europe itself once. Labour is in a | 0:17:58 | 0:18:07 | |
complete mess about this. We will
talk to this about -- we will talk | 0:18:07 | 0:18:10 | |
to them about that. They were in
favour of leaving the customs union | 0:18:10 | 0:18:14 | |
and the single market and Barry
Gardner said it was making a vassal | 0:18:14 | 0:18:17 | |
state if you stayed in the customs
union. We will ask Labour themselves | 0:18:17 | 0:18:22 | |
about that. Theresa May has made it
clear where out of the single market | 0:18:22 | 0:18:26 | |
and Customs union and I say to my
colleagues who want to change some | 0:18:26 | 0:18:29 | |
of this, just be very careful on
this one, because being invited into | 0:18:29 | 0:18:34 | |
a Labour Party tactical game which
will end up in real damage the | 0:18:34 | 0:18:38 | |
United Kingdom. Iain Duncan Smith,
thank you very much for talking to | 0:18:38 | 0:18:42 | |
us. | 0:18:42 | 0:18:43 | |
So much for the Conservatives,
but what about Labour? | 0:18:43 | 0:18:45 | |
In 24 hours' time,
Jeremy Corbyn will give | 0:18:45 | 0:18:47 | |
a keynote speech on Brexit. | 0:18:47 | 0:18:48 | |
All the signs are that he will back
the UK staying permanently | 0:18:48 | 0:18:51 | |
in a customs union with the EU. | 0:18:51 | 0:18:53 | |
But over 80 senior Labour figures
have today urged Mr Corbyn to go | 0:18:53 | 0:18:56 | |
further and support staying
in the single market as well. | 0:18:56 | 0:18:59 | |
But how would that go down
with the millions of Labour | 0:18:59 | 0:19:01 | |
voters who backed Brexit? | 0:19:01 | 0:19:02 | |
Here's what the Shadow Brexit
Secretary, Keir Starmer, | 0:19:02 | 0:19:04 | |
said this morning. | 0:19:04 | 0:19:05 | |
Well, we have long championed
being in a customs union with the EU | 0:19:05 | 0:19:08 | |
and the benefits of that. | 0:19:08 | 0:19:13 | |
Obviously, it is the only way,
realistically, to get | 0:19:13 | 0:19:15 | |
tariff free access. | 0:19:15 | 0:19:17 | |
It is really important
for our manufacturing base | 0:19:17 | 0:19:21 | |
and nobody can answer the question
how you keep your commitment to no | 0:19:21 | 0:19:24 | |
hard border in Northern Ireland
without a customs union. | 0:19:24 | 0:19:26 | |
We have always said
that the benefits of the single | 0:19:26 | 0:19:29 | |
market must be there in the final
agreement and that is a really | 0:19:29 | 0:19:32 | |
important commitment
because in the end, however | 0:19:32 | 0:19:34 | |
you arrive at that, in whatever
the instrument or agreement it is, | 0:19:34 | 0:19:36 | |
the benefits have got to be there. | 0:19:36 | 0:19:38 | |
Labour is agreed on that end state. | 0:19:38 | 0:19:40 | |
There is obviously an argument
about how we get there. | 0:19:40 | 0:19:43 | |
To discuss this I'm joined by two
Labour MPs who fall on opposing | 0:19:43 | 0:19:45 | |
sides of the Brexit argument. | 0:19:45 | 0:19:47 | |
Frank Field campaigned to leave
the EU and Stella Creasy | 0:19:47 | 0:19:49 | |
is a supporter of the pro-European
group Open Britain. | 0:19:49 | 0:19:52 | |
Thank you both for coming on the
programme. Stella Creasy, you have | 0:19:52 | 0:19:57 | |
signed this letter to Jeremy Corbyn
to be asking not only to stay in the | 0:19:57 | 0:20:00 | |
customs union but also the single
market. If you're in both of them, I | 0:20:00 | 0:20:06 | |
really delivering on the referendum
Brexit result? There are lots of | 0:20:06 | 0:20:11 | |
different combinations that still
see is leaving the European Union | 0:20:11 | 0:20:14 | |
but do what Labour people across
this country, and that is why there | 0:20:14 | 0:20:18 | |
is support across the country and
the party for this letter, which is | 0:20:18 | 0:20:21 | |
to protect the jobs and incomes. We
know that Brexit, any of the models, | 0:20:21 | 0:20:27 | |
I am horrified to your Iain Duncan
Smith dismissing the idea that | 0:20:27 | 0:20:30 | |
manufacturing may be at stake or the
numbers don't matter. It is a | 0:20:30 | 0:20:34 | |
massive hit on our economy. It is a
massive hit took peace in Northern | 0:20:34 | 0:20:39 | |
Ireland if we leave the customs
union. These are called labour | 0:20:39 | 0:20:42 | |
values and that is what we are
standing up for. You're asking to | 0:20:42 | 0:20:46 | |
stay in the single market. The
problem with that is you thought an | 0:20:46 | 0:20:50 | |
election last year under a manifesto
which said that free movement will | 0:20:50 | 0:20:55 | |
end. You cannot do both. I am in the
migration committee on the Council | 0:20:55 | 0:20:58 | |
of Europe. Lots of people are
willing to talk about how we make | 0:20:58 | 0:21:02 | |
freedom of movement work. They
recognise politicians have not got | 0:21:02 | 0:21:05 | |
it right across the continent. If we
are not fighting to stay in the | 0:21:05 | 0:21:10 | |
single market we cannot have that
conversation about what the reformed | 0:21:10 | 0:21:13 | |
freedom of movement might look like.
I think freedom of movement is an | 0:21:13 | 0:21:17 | |
important right for people in this
country. I do not want to have to | 0:21:17 | 0:21:21 | |
see the kids in Walthamstow
Birkenhead that their ability to | 0:21:21 | 0:21:23 | |
work for a company that has a base
outside the UK will be hampered by | 0:21:23 | 0:21:27 | |
decisions we've made. That puts them
in an austerity Britain and I do not | 0:21:27 | 0:21:34 | |
want to do that. Frank Field, does
this sound like a Brexit you could | 0:21:34 | 0:21:37 | |
sell to any leave photo? No, and you
know perfectly well we cannot sell | 0:21:37 | 0:21:42 | |
it. I am looking forward to what
Jeremy Corbyn says tomorrow because | 0:21:42 | 0:21:46 | |
you have hyped it up. On every vote
we have had Onuora before he came -- | 0:21:46 | 0:21:53 | |
before he became leader, Jeremy
Corbyn and I were deeply suspicious | 0:21:53 | 0:21:56 | |
of this organisation which is
corrupt, it has never got its | 0:21:56 | 0:22:00 | |
accounts audited, it is bankrupt.
Whatever he says tomorrow he will | 0:22:00 | 0:22:05 | |
not be arguing to stay in the EU, he
will be arguing for the customs | 0:22:05 | 0:22:09 | |
union? Please, let me finish. It is
deeply corrupt. It is bankrupt. It | 0:22:09 | 0:22:18 | |
has destabilised Europe with all
this pretence about it has brought | 0:22:18 | 0:22:22 | |
peace. Look what we have done to the
area around Russia. Given there are | 0:22:22 | 0:22:29 | |
number of states within Europe who
depend on our contribution, we | 0:22:29 | 0:22:33 | |
should be voting for a clear
decorate -- a clear declaration, we | 0:22:33 | 0:22:37 | |
want a free-trade area, and we have
money. What are you going to choose. | 0:22:37 | 0:22:43 | |
I think we should take the gloves
off in these negotiations and look | 0:22:43 | 0:22:46 | |
at the real power structure. They
need our money, and for reasons | 0:22:46 | 0:22:51 | |
which Stella Creasy has put forward,
we need access to a free-market | 0:22:51 | 0:22:56 | |
arrangement. What is your problem
with Jeremy Corbyn saying that the | 0:22:56 | 0:22:59 | |
Labour policy will be too clearly
stay in a customs union? Two things. | 0:22:59 | 0:23:05 | |
One, it goes against what we said at
the election. It goes against all | 0:23:05 | 0:23:11 | |
the scare tactics during the
campaign, all the major figures were | 0:23:11 | 0:23:16 | |
saying, you know, if you vote here,
you're leaving the customs union, | 0:23:16 | 0:23:21 | |
you're leaving the free market.
There was no question about what the | 0:23:21 | 0:23:25 | |
referendum was deciding. And the
politics of this is, are we going to | 0:23:25 | 0:23:31 | |
be run by a London agenda? I know
Stella Creasy has got other issues | 0:23:31 | 0:23:36 | |
that she reaches out across the
country, but this is essentially a | 0:23:36 | 0:23:42 | |
London agenda against Labour voters,
particularly in the North. | 0:23:42 | 0:23:45 | |
THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
You have got the mayor of Liverpool | 0:23:45 | 0:23:50 | |
who signed this letter, the leader
of Newcastle Council. You and I | 0:23:50 | 0:23:54 | |
would in the lobby fighting together
against this government's welfare | 0:23:54 | 0:23:58 | |
cuts. £12 billion cuts. That is
nothing to do with this. It | 0:23:58 | 0:24:02 | |
absolutely is. Even the bare minimal
model we are talking about would be | 0:24:02 | 0:24:07 | |
ahead on our economy and the
communities we represent. How can we | 0:24:07 | 0:24:12 | |
vote Forestieri the? How can you do
that to the voters, the People who | 0:24:12 | 0:24:17 | |
work in the Vauxhall plants in the
Wirral who are frightened they are | 0:24:17 | 0:24:21 | |
about to lose their jobs. How can
you do that to the People in | 0:24:21 | 0:24:24 | |
Northern Ireland? Let me answer you,
please. We have been through the | 0:24:24 | 0:24:29 | |
courts. There is no problem about
the Good Friday Agreement being | 0:24:29 | 0:24:32 | |
challenged by this at all. We have
got time, I am happy to discuss it. | 0:24:32 | 0:24:37 | |
I think there are problems with the
Good Friday Agreement and a customs | 0:24:37 | 0:24:41 | |
union. No, it will remain. If we
have time, I would love to discuss | 0:24:41 | 0:24:46 | |
that with you. About austerity, can
I answer that? We are net | 0:24:46 | 0:24:53 | |
contributor. We will have money to
be brought back. While some people | 0:24:53 | 0:24:55 | |
have signed the order leaders even
there, when you look at the | 0:24:55 | 0:25:02 | |
parliamentary arithmetic, Mrs May
almost hollowed out our vote in the | 0:25:02 | 0:25:10 | |
seats were only kept by a handful of
votes. These are seats which voted | 0:25:10 | 0:25:14 | |
very clearly to leave. That is the
act of faith. I know there are | 0:25:14 | 0:25:19 | |
problems about how do you give the
electorate the sovereignty to decide | 0:25:19 | 0:25:22 | |
an issue and then bring it back into
a representative parliamentary | 0:25:22 | 0:25:26 | |
system, but the vote was cleared to
leave. The bill is about leaving and | 0:25:26 | 0:25:34 | |
whether we support that or not and
if we do not support that, I think | 0:25:34 | 0:25:37 | |
Labour voters will draw their own
messages in the North. Please do not | 0:25:37 | 0:25:40 | |
drive Boris's bars for the People of
those communities. You're saying | 0:25:40 | 0:25:44 | |
that somehow we will get money back.
All the evidence shows is that any | 0:25:44 | 0:25:48 | |
money you get back will be dwarfed
by what we will lose. You're talking | 0:25:48 | 0:25:54 | |
about £1 billion coming back.
THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE | 0:25:54 | 0:26:01 | |
You can talk across me all you like,
the numbers are there in the | 0:26:01 | 0:26:05 | |
government's on analysis. That is
what we have to front up to the | 0:26:05 | 0:26:09 | |
communities we represent. Are you
going to write on the People's | 0:26:09 | 0:26:15 | |
decision to leave? You're coming out
with all these things, we will stay | 0:26:15 | 0:26:20 | |
in a customs union, we will stay in
a single market, the decision was | 0:26:20 | 0:26:24 | |
quite clear to leave. In the north,
Labour voters voted very, very | 0:26:24 | 0:26:31 | |
clearly. You going to rat on them or
not? Never mind about buses and all | 0:26:31 | 0:26:38 | |
the rest of it.
It does matter. Let her answer. It | 0:26:38 | 0:26:41 | |
is about the evidence that we now
have. Democracy did not stop the day | 0:26:41 | 0:26:45 | |
after the referendum. People have a
right to see the detail. Of course | 0:26:45 | 0:26:49 | |
they do. Do you accept that the
government figures show clearly that | 0:26:49 | 0:26:53 | |
if we stay in the European economic
arrangement, which is out of the EU, | 0:26:53 | 0:26:58 | |
we are still going to take a 16 pelt
-- a £16 billion hit on our economy? | 0:26:58 | 0:27:03 | |
That worse anything you get back.
This letter is not just signed from | 0:27:03 | 0:27:07 | |
people across the country but people
across the trade union movement | 0:27:07 | 0:27:11 | |
because they because they know the | 0:27:11 | 0:27:17 | |
hard Brexit the government is
pushing for and why it matters | 0:27:24 | 0:27:26 | |
Jeremy Corbyn is fighting for the
customs union and single market | 0:27:26 | 0:27:29 | |
membership. It means jobs and wages.
What we should be fighting forest | 0:27:29 | 0:27:31 | |
sector agreements with the European
Union. We want a free-trade area. | 0:27:31 | 0:27:33 | |
They have always opposed the
activities of the city. There is no | 0:27:33 | 0:27:36 | |
need to worry about the city. There
is a need to worry about | 0:27:36 | 0:27:38 | |
manufacturing and we will make
special arrangements with them. The | 0:27:38 | 0:27:41 | |
issue is clear, do we disguise the
fact by pretending we're going to | 0:27:41 | 0:27:45 | |
have a customs union or some other
arrangement which counters what the | 0:27:45 | 0:27:51 | |
clear declaration of northern Labour
voters actually said? They have | 0:27:51 | 0:27:56 | |
changed their side. A third of
Labour voters did vote for leave. | 0:27:56 | 0:28:00 | |
You risk them abandoning the party.
This is not about rerunning the | 0:28:00 | 0:28:04 | |
referendum. It is about what kind of
deal do we get and is it in the best | 0:28:04 | 0:28:09 | |
interests of Britain. I believe
voters across this country have the | 0:28:09 | 0:28:12 | |
right to know what is likely to
happen. | 0:28:12 | 0:28:14 | |
THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
Of course they have a right. A right | 0:28:14 | 0:28:23 | |
to every bit of information going.
The key thing, we have had a | 0:28:23 | 0:28:29 | |
referendum and we rarely use
referendums for this reason, they | 0:28:29 | 0:28:32 | |
are difficult to implement. The
referendum decision was clear and | 0:28:32 | 0:28:35 | |
particularly clear in the North from
Labour voters. I want to keep faith | 0:28:35 | 0:28:40 | |
with them. I voted to come out. I
know it is harder for people who | 0:28:40 | 0:28:43 | |
voted to stay in. Are we going to
dress up a retreat, Agassi? Then | 0:28:43 | 0:28:51 | |
there is a complicated decision for
you to make. We've been talking | 0:28:51 | 0:28:54 | |
about the amendment put forward by
Anna Soubry and others, an amendment | 0:28:54 | 0:28:57 | |
to the trade bill that will be voted
on in a few time. There is a | 0:28:57 | 0:29:02 | |
potential to defeat the government
is Jeremy Corbyn comes out in favour | 0:29:02 | 0:29:05 | |
of a customs union and whips his MPs
to vote that way. If you had the | 0:29:05 | 0:29:10 | |
opportunity to win a vote against
the government and bring down | 0:29:10 | 0:29:13 | |
Theresa May, would you vote with her
to keep her in office or against? | 0:29:13 | 0:29:20 | |
That is not the choice and you know
that. That will be the choice on the | 0:29:20 | 0:29:23 | |
day. We will have a decision, do we
continue to implement the referendum | 0:29:23 | 0:29:25 | |
decision. I shall be voting for
that. Even if that is voting to prop | 0:29:25 | 0:29:32 | |
up the government? It is not about
propping up the government it is | 0:29:32 | 0:29:35 | |
about implementing a decision of the
People. The government has a | 0:29:35 | 0:29:40 | |
majority on this. The idea that Anna
Soubry is going to lead all these | 0:29:40 | 0:29:43 | |
people into the labour lobbies is
just fairy tales. But we will see on | 0:29:43 | 0:29:48 | |
the night. The government will win
comfortably and double figures on | 0:29:48 | 0:29:51 | |
this issue. Frank Field, Stella
Creasy, we will have to leave it | 0:29:51 | 0:29:55 | |
there. Thank you very much. | 0:29:55 | 0:29:58 | |
The local elections in May will see
many seats in the big metropolitan | 0:29:58 | 0:30:01 | |
councils in England up for grabs,
and the Conservatives may need | 0:30:01 | 0:30:04 | |
to brace for a difficult night. | 0:30:04 | 0:30:06 | |
A YouGov poll predicts
Labour could seize several | 0:30:06 | 0:30:07 | |
Conservative councils in London,
including one the Tories | 0:30:07 | 0:30:09 | |
have never lost before. | 0:30:09 | 0:30:10 | |
Emma Vardy looks ahead. | 0:30:10 | 0:30:14 | |
Not since the swinging '60s has
anyone done better in local | 0:30:14 | 0:30:18 | |
elections than Labour
could be about to. | 0:30:18 | 0:30:21 | |
A recent YouGov poll is predicting
Labour will sweep London | 0:30:21 | 0:30:24 | |
with the best results for any
party since 1968. | 0:30:24 | 0:30:32 | |
One of the most enduring Tory
strongholds is here. | 0:30:34 | 0:30:38 | |
To this day, Westminster,
with its largely affluent | 0:30:38 | 0:30:41 | |
population of voters,
has never had a Labour-run | 0:30:41 | 0:30:44 | |
authority, but if the poll is to be
believed, that could now change. | 0:30:44 | 0:30:50 | |
This council has been
Conservative-controlled ever | 0:30:50 | 0:30:54 | |
since the borough was created
in the 1960s. | 0:30:54 | 0:30:58 | |
But if the swing was big enough
to turn this council red, | 0:30:58 | 0:31:02 | |
that would top off a very good
night for Labour. | 0:31:02 | 0:31:04 | |
The Conservatives are at position
where they could potentially | 0:31:04 | 0:31:07 | |
be left with just one,
maybe two councils in all of London. | 0:31:07 | 0:31:12 | |
I think that would be a bad night
for the Conservatives, | 0:31:12 | 0:31:15 | |
but it is possible. | 0:31:15 | 0:31:18 | |
They are having to fight to hang
on almost everywhere | 0:31:18 | 0:31:22 | |
they still have representation. | 0:31:22 | 0:31:23 | |
But away from London,
it could be a different story. | 0:31:23 | 0:31:26 | |
Birmingham City Council has been
controlled by Labour since 2012. | 0:31:26 | 0:31:31 | |
They hold around two-thirds
of the seats here, but there | 0:31:31 | 0:31:35 | |
is anger over a bin dispute that
lasted for months and left tons | 0:31:35 | 0:31:39 | |
of rubbish on the streets
uncollected, and resentment over | 0:31:39 | 0:31:41 | |
budget cuts that are
affecting local services. | 0:31:41 | 0:31:45 | |
It does not matter who is in because
there is nothing between them, | 0:31:45 | 0:31:48 | |
that is the problem,
because Birmingham is basically | 0:31:48 | 0:31:51 | |
screwed by central government,
who have reduced all of our grants. | 0:31:51 | 0:31:54 | |
There has been a lot of problems
with the bin collections. | 0:31:54 | 0:31:57 | |
Yes, there have. | 0:31:57 | 0:31:58 | |
Oh, yes. | 0:31:58 | 0:31:59 | |
The Labour run council
got the blame for that? | 0:31:59 | 0:32:01 | |
Yes, I would say so. | 0:32:01 | 0:32:03 | |
The more it dragged
on, certainly, yes. | 0:32:03 | 0:32:05 | |
This will be the first all-out
election for Birmingham City Council | 0:32:05 | 0:32:09 | |
since boundary changes,
so there are 101 seats | 0:32:09 | 0:32:12 | |
here all up for grabs. | 0:32:12 | 0:32:16 | |
It is a place Labour should do well,
but could the party be | 0:32:16 | 0:32:19 | |
punished over those bins? | 0:32:19 | 0:32:20 | |
Back in the summer, of course,
we had the bin strike. | 0:32:20 | 0:32:23 | |
It was not the city's
greatest moment in time. | 0:32:23 | 0:32:26 | |
When I became leader of the council,
I pledged we would resolve that | 0:32:26 | 0:32:29 | |
dispute, which we have now done. | 0:32:29 | 0:32:30 | |
We, the Labour Party
here in Birmingham, are committed | 0:32:30 | 0:32:33 | |
to maintaining weekly bin
collections going forward | 0:32:33 | 0:32:35 | |
for the next four years,
a commitment I've yet to hear | 0:32:35 | 0:32:38 | |
from either of the
other two parties. | 0:32:38 | 0:32:42 | |
Here in Birmingham, the council tax
has gone up over 20% in seven years, | 0:32:42 | 0:32:46 | |
but services have gone down,
and people are seeing rubbish | 0:32:46 | 0:32:48 | |
left on their streets,
and they feel it is time | 0:32:48 | 0:32:50 | |
for a change. | 0:32:50 | 0:32:51 | |
There are plenty of other
places who survive | 0:32:51 | 0:32:53 | |
on fortnightly bin collections. | 0:32:53 | 0:32:54 | |
With council budgets
being constrained, is that | 0:32:54 | 0:32:56 | |
not a sensible option? | 0:32:56 | 0:32:59 | |
In Birmingham, we are absolutely
clear that weekly bin | 0:32:59 | 0:33:01 | |
collections need to remain. | 0:33:01 | 0:33:02 | |
Meanwhile, the Liberal Democrats
and the Greens remain much | 0:33:02 | 0:33:08 | |
stronger in local government
than they are in Parliament, | 0:33:08 | 0:33:10 | |
and in May, they will be
fighting to increase | 0:33:10 | 0:33:12 | |
their local authority presence. | 0:33:12 | 0:33:15 | |
While Ukip are likely to continue
to struggle to reverse | 0:33:15 | 0:33:19 | |
the party's decline. | 0:33:19 | 0:33:22 | |
But if the story of the night
is the biggest Labour | 0:33:22 | 0:33:24 | |
success since the '60s,
any high-profile defeats in Tory | 0:33:24 | 0:33:26 | |
strongholds could start to make some
Conservative MPs worry | 0:33:26 | 0:33:30 | |
about their constituencies ahead
of the next general election. | 0:33:30 | 0:33:34 | |
Steve, Kate and Iain
are still with me. | 0:33:34 | 0:33:38 | |
Let's pick up on the local
elections. Kate, should Theresa May | 0:33:38 | 0:33:43 | |
be deeply worried about this, what
she expected a bad night and what | 0:33:43 | 0:33:48 | |
might the consequences be? No doubt
she will be worried but my favourite | 0:33:48 | 0:33:52 | |
thing is Everything is underlined by
the fact people care more about | 0:33:52 | 0:33:55 | |
things than other things that is
what politics comes down to, at the | 0:33:55 | 0:33:58 | |
end of the day. I think Theresa May
will be worried. -- it comes down | 0:33:58 | 0:34:02 | |
bins. It is a battle ground for
those parties. Places like Haringey, | 0:34:02 | 0:34:09 | |
if you see what has happened to
Labour in those areas, and how | 0:34:09 | 0:34:13 | |
powerful momentum and the left have
become in local politics, you see | 0:34:13 | 0:34:16 | |
how much it matters to Labour. I
think the Tories will be worried, | 0:34:16 | 0:34:21 | |
particularly about London. As the BT
said, Labour expect to do quite well | 0:34:21 | 0:34:25 | |
and that is not going to look very
good. Brandon Lewis, the new | 0:34:25 | 0:34:29 | |
chairman of the party, said last
week we expect big losses in London. | 0:34:29 | 0:34:34 | |
He is setting that already. I think
the Tory party is worried. In areas | 0:34:34 | 0:34:37 | |
like Birmingham and other areas
around the country, Brexit is likely | 0:34:37 | 0:34:41 | |
to be important and I think that's
why it comes back to labour being | 0:34:41 | 0:34:44 | |
modelled on Brexit. People vote with
their feet. If the Tories can win | 0:34:44 | 0:34:48 | |
back some seats like burning in
other places, it might not be a | 0:34:48 | 0:34:51 | |
massive all-out loss lost them on
the night. Expectation management | 0:34:51 | 0:34:56 | |
already being Manoj | 0:34:56 | 0:35:02 | |
already being Manoj -- being
managed. Actual voters telling us | 0:35:02 | 0:35:04 | |
what they think. Did they have
consequences that Parliamentary | 0:35:04 | 0:35:07 | |
politics? They could do this time.
It reminds me, Steve will remember | 0:35:07 | 0:35:13 | |
this, 1990 when the Tories did
disastrously in local elections. | 0:35:13 | 0:35:17 | |
Kenneth Baker went out on the
streets and exempted we kept once | 0:35:17 | 0:35:25 | |
loved. I don't think that will
happen this time. Kate is right, | 0:35:25 | 0:35:29 | |
Brandon Lewis, the Tory party
chairman has already started to | 0:35:29 | 0:35:33 | |
manage expectations. He generally
believe they are in for a drubbing, | 0:35:33 | 0:35:39 | |
particularly in London. These will
last up for grabs in 2014 when Ukip | 0:35:39 | 0:35:45 | |
are doing well. In the last year,
Ukip's vote has virtually | 0:35:45 | 0:35:49 | |
disappeared. So all three other
parties, their votes have gone up in | 0:35:49 | 0:35:52 | |
by-elections. It depends where that
vote goes, Wilbur Liberal Democrats | 0:35:52 | 0:35:56 | |
be able to hold onto the seats they
won in that year? -- Wilbur Liberal | 0:35:56 | 0:36:02 | |
Democrats be able to hold onto the
six? I think it will be a drumming | 0:36:02 | 0:36:06 | |
but I think it will be patchy. Andy
Street has been reasonably popular | 0:36:06 | 0:36:13 | |
in the West Midlands. If they do
that they will have a 1990 situation | 0:36:13 | 0:36:17 | |
and that is all they will talk
about. Even if they lose | 0:36:17 | 0:36:20 | |
Westminster? Probably. | 0:36:20 | 0:36:26 | |
will be confirmed. Theresa May has
been in a fragile position since the | 0:36:52 | 0:36:54 | |
general election and that will be
confirmed. But by that point Brexit | 0:36:54 | 0:36:58 | |
will be reaching or coming close to
one of its several climactic son I | 0:36:58 | 0:37:02 | |
think that will shape the national
picture. The local elections will be | 0:37:02 | 0:37:07 | |
really important for local
government, who inherit the | 0:37:07 | 0:37:11 | |
nightmarish budget. It won't change
the national picture very much. Iain | 0:37:11 | 0:37:16 | |
said Ukip's vote has been falling
and they have had their troubles | 0:37:16 | 0:37:21 | |
recently as well. Important to see
where their vote goes and confirms | 0:37:21 | 0:37:25 | |
we are moving back to two party
politics maybe? I think it does | 0:37:25 | 0:37:31 | |
nationally but locally it's a
different picture because the Ukip | 0:37:31 | 0:37:32 | |
vote tends to go on all kinds of
directions. It doesn't necessarily | 0:37:32 | 0:37:36 | |
go where you think it will. So the
Liberal Democrats and the Greens do | 0:37:36 | 0:37:41 | |
quite well at local elections,
whereas nationally they don't do | 0:37:41 | 0:37:43 | |
very well at all. I think sometimes
you do see people who would vote for | 0:37:43 | 0:37:48 | |
any other party going for any other
party and not necessarily the Tories | 0:37:48 | 0:37:51 | |
and Labour. I think it comes down to
how much this comes down to Brexit. | 0:37:51 | 0:37:58 | |
Do people care more about Brexit or
bins question mark in areas like | 0:37:58 | 0:38:01 | |
London, I think Brexit and bigger
national issues will have a bearing. | 0:38:01 | 0:38:06 | |
Brexit one way or another will help
with your bins? London has become a | 0:38:06 | 0:38:13 | |
Labour city. Huge capital city with
millions and millions has become a | 0:38:13 | 0:38:19 | |
Labour stronghold. That is
significant for all kinds of | 0:38:19 | 0:38:22 | |
reasons. It has also become as
strong as it used to be in Scotland. | 0:38:22 | 0:38:28 | |
Even in 2010 in the general
election, London voted Labour by a | 0:38:28 | 0:38:33 | |
wide margin. That is quite a
significant development. We need to | 0:38:33 | 0:38:36 | |
leave it there just now, coming back
to you later in the programme. | 0:38:36 | 0:38:40 | |
It's coming up to 11.40,
you're watching the Sunday Politics. | 0:38:40 | 0:38:43 | |
Still to come... | 0:38:43 | 0:38:49 | |
Good morning and welcome
to Sunday Politics Scotland. | 0:38:49 | 0:38:52 | |
Coming up on the programme... | 0:38:52 | 0:38:53 | |
University lecturers strike over
threats to their pensions. | 0:38:53 | 0:38:55 | |
As more walk-outs loom,
I'll be speaking to Scotland's | 0:38:55 | 0:38:58 | |
Higher Education Minister. | 0:38:58 | 0:39:03 | |
A Chief Constable says
Police Scotland prevented | 0:39:03 | 0:39:04 | |
him from carrying out
a full-scale investigation. | 0:39:04 | 0:39:09 | |
I think there was a lack of openness
in certain parts of the organisation | 0:39:09 | 0:39:15 | |
and remains so. | 0:39:15 | 0:39:20 | |
and remain so. | 0:39:20 | 0:39:20 | |
And Scotland's role in Brexit -
after another round of talks is it | 0:39:20 | 0:39:23 | |
time the PM and the FM got involved? | 0:39:23 | 0:39:27 | |
University lecturers have begun
a 14-day walk-out in a row | 0:39:27 | 0:39:30 | |
over their pensions. | 0:39:30 | 0:39:32 | |
It's another illustration
of the financial pressures | 0:39:32 | 0:39:33 | |
on higher education,
coming in the same week | 0:39:33 | 0:39:35 | |
the Prime Minister launched
a year-long review of tuition fees | 0:39:35 | 0:39:38 | |
and university funding in England. | 0:39:38 | 0:39:39 | |
Here in Scotland, of course,
opposition to tuition fees | 0:39:39 | 0:39:41 | |
has become something
of an article of faith. | 0:39:41 | 0:39:49 | |
The reality, however,
is complicated, | 0:39:51 | 0:39:52 | |
with critics suggesting the current
policy has failed to substantially | 0:39:52 | 0:39:54 | |
increase the number of students
from disadvantaged backgrounds. | 0:39:54 | 0:39:56 | |
In a moment I'll be speaking
to the minister responsible | 0:39:56 | 0:39:59 | |
for higher education,
but first here's Graham Stewart. | 0:39:59 | 0:40:02 | |
This is an official UCU picket line.
We are asking people not to cross. | 0:40:02 | 0:40:07 | |
They came out to protect their
pensions, not just for themselves, | 0:40:07 | 0:40:11 | |
they insist, but to ensure the
profession continues to attract the | 0:40:11 | 0:40:15 | |
best talent and students get the
highest quality education. The | 0:40:15 | 0:40:20 | |
employers are pushing through really
Draconian changes to the pension | 0:40:20 | 0:40:24 | |
scheme, which take guaranteed
pension benefits in retirement away | 0:40:24 | 0:40:26 | |
from them, and leave their pension
and retirement to the whims of the | 0:40:26 | 0:40:31 | |
market. It could mean a lecturer
could | 0:40:31 | 0:40:39 | |
could lose up to £10,000 a year once
they have retired. Universities UK | 0:40:39 | 0:40:42 | |
which represents the employers call
the action disappointing. They say | 0:40:42 | 0:40:44 | |
the pension scheme has a deficit of
£6 billion, and change is essential. | 0:40:44 | 0:40:48 | |
The union says this 14 day walk-out
will affect 145,000 students. There | 0:40:48 | 0:40:54 | |
is plenty of support among the
lecturers, but what do the students | 0:40:54 | 0:40:57 | |
think? | 0:40:57 | 0:41:03 | |
think? The University of Glasgow is
one of Scotland's throw-mac ancient | 0:41:03 | 0:41:09 | |
universities... I am a first-year
veterinary student. It is their | 0:41:09 | 0:41:13 | |
well-being, their pension fund, from
what I understand, and if they feel | 0:41:13 | 0:41:16 | |
they are being wronged I support
them in that. I am studying teaching | 0:41:16 | 0:41:21 | |
at the University of Glasgow. It is
quite irritating but we understand | 0:41:21 | 0:41:24 | |
that they need to be paid well and
supported. I studied biomedical | 0:41:24 | 0:41:31 | |
engineering. I don't really agree
with it, to be honest. I've liked | 0:41:31 | 0:41:35 | |
everyone should be affected by the
recession and the austerity that is | 0:41:35 | 0:41:39 | |
happening. People at uni should not
be excluded from that. Unlike their | 0:41:39 | 0:41:45 | |
counterparts in England Scottish
students will not be looking for | 0:41:45 | 0:41:46 | |
refunds on their tuition fees in
this dispute, because students here | 0:41:46 | 0:41:51 | |
haven't paid them since the Labour
and Lib Dem coalition scrap them in | 0:41:51 | 0:41:56 | |
2002, replacing the system with the
graduate endowment. Then, in 2008, | 0:41:56 | 0:42:01 | |
the SNP finally abolished the
graduate endowment essentially | 0:42:01 | 0:42:10 | |
making tuition free. The former
First Minister even had his | 0:42:14 | 0:42:16 | |
opposition to these immortalised in
storm, though Herriot Watt | 0:42:16 | 0:42:17 | |
University seems strangely bashful
about it, refusing us permission to | 0:42:17 | 0:42:19 | |
film this weekend. They are not the
only ones to find the issue of | 0:42:19 | 0:42:22 | |
student debt can prove
controversial. How different is the | 0:42:22 | 0:42:27 | |
debate in Scotland? Totally
different because what he is coming | 0:42:27 | 0:42:30 | |
up against is the reality that
students are leaving university in | 0:42:30 | 0:42:33 | |
England with a massive debt burden,
facing huge house prices and | 0:42:33 | 0:42:38 | |
stagnant wages under the Tories. In
Scotland we don't have university | 0:42:38 | 0:42:41 | |
tuition fees so students are not
facing a challenge. Students leave | 0:42:41 | 0:42:45 | |
university with their degree without
a huge debt... That,, alleging | 0:42:45 | 0:42:52 | |
Scottish students leave without huge
debts, was judged by the journalism | 0:42:52 | 0:42:54 | |
website the Ferret to be mostly
false. On the basis that students | 0:42:54 | 0:42:58 | |
will for still have to mostly cover
their own living expenses. She says | 0:42:58 | 0:43:04 | |
the article claimed she was a liar
and was therefore defamatory. The | 0:43:04 | 0:43:08 | |
average at a debt owed by graduates
from the class of 2017 is £11,740, | 0:43:08 | 0:43:14 | |
significantly lower than other parts
of the UK, but even that is not | 0:43:14 | 0:43:18 | |
necessarily the full picture. The
repayment system is matter as well | 0:43:18 | 0:43:21 | |
so we know a lot of the debt in
England will never be repaid. In | 0:43:21 | 0:43:26 | |
Scotland, because it is law to start
with, and because we collect debt in | 0:43:26 | 0:43:30 | |
a different way, so we get more out
of people's earnings were quickly, | 0:43:30 | 0:43:33 | |
it is much more likely if you have a
£25,000 debt in Scotland you will | 0:43:33 | 0:43:37 | |
pay off the whole thing, that if you
have a £50,000 debt in England. That | 0:43:37 | 0:43:42 | |
debt could be more likely to the
shoulders of shoulders of some of | 0:43:42 | 0:43:46 | |
the poorest students. What the SNP
have done is to slash the amount | 0:43:46 | 0:43:50 | |
available for grants and bursaries
by about 35% and that money | 0:43:50 | 0:43:53 | |
previously went to students from
low-income backgrounds. Now as a | 0:43:53 | 0:43:58 | |
consequence of that decision and
others made by the Scottish | 0:43:58 | 0:44:01 | |
Government these students now we've
university significantly more | 0:44:01 | 0:44:04 | |
in-depth than their more affluent
contemporaries. A recent report for | 0:44:04 | 0:44:10 | |
the Scottish Government recommended
all students receive an income of | 0:44:10 | 0:44:13 | |
just over £8,000 per year. The
Government is still to it's | 0:44:13 | 0:44:16 | |
considered response. Goodbye for me.
Goodbye. | 0:44:16 | 0:44:24 | |
Well, with me now is
the Scottish Government's | 0:44:24 | 0:44:26 | |
Higher Education Minister,
Shirley-Anne Somerville. | 0:44:26 | 0:44:28 | |
We will talk about universities in a
moment, but first, Brexit. There is | 0:44:28 | 0:44:34 | |
an article by David Lidington, in
effect Theresa May's deputy, in the | 0:44:34 | 0:44:41 | |
Telegraph today. Basically he
accuses the Scottish Government of | 0:44:41 | 0:44:45 | |
putting Britain in a situation where
it "Could be struggling to make its | 0:44:45 | 0:44:51 | |
way in a new world outside the EU
because of its insistence on having | 0:44:51 | 0:44:54 | |
everything from Europe devolved." As
a representative of the Scottish | 0:44:54 | 0:45:01 | |
Government, what is your response?
The Scottish Government is not | 0:45:01 | 0:45:04 | |
against common agreement in
principle but they do have to be in | 0:45:04 | 0:45:08 | |
Scotland's interests, so this is an
issue about power is being | 0:45:08 | 0:45:13 | |
repatriated from Europe back to the
Scottish Parliament, coming to the | 0:45:13 | 0:45:16 | |
Scottish Parliament and not getting
stuck in Westminster. Surely, it | 0:45:16 | 0:45:19 | |
should be the right thing to do to
bring those powers to the Scottish | 0:45:19 | 0:45:23 | |
Parliament, to let the Parliament
decide what is right for Scotland | 0:45:23 | 0:45:26 | |
and what... His argument is if you
bring back powers to Scotland on | 0:45:26 | 0:45:31 | |
things like, all the things I have
mentioned, regulations on bleach and | 0:45:31 | 0:45:36 | |
paints, or on standards, that when
Britain is negotiating trade | 0:45:36 | 0:45:41 | |
agreements with third-party
countries, unless there is a single | 0:45:41 | 0:45:44 | |
UK market, unless it is known to
those third parties, it could stop | 0:45:44 | 0:45:48 | |
these trade agreements going ahead.
That is the point he is making. The | 0:45:48 | 0:45:52 | |
Scottish Government and Scottish
Parliament will not stand in the way | 0:45:52 | 0:45:55 | |
of a common-sense approach. As I
said right at the beginning we are | 0:45:55 | 0:45:58 | |
not against common agreement in
principle, but by any other | 0:45:58 | 0:46:02 | |
standards this is about a power grab
from Westminster. We are asking for | 0:46:02 | 0:46:07 | |
the powers being repaid created from
Europe to come to the Scottish | 0:46:07 | 0:46:10 | |
Parliament, and this is not an issue
for one party but it is an issue for | 0:46:10 | 0:46:15 | |
the parliament and there has been
cross-party agreement that they | 0:46:15 | 0:46:18 | |
should be looked at very carefully
-- the powers being repatriated from | 0:46:18 | 0:46:24 | |
Europe. Is it your view that if
these common frameworks are put into | 0:46:24 | 0:46:29 | |
place they should be approved by the
Scottish Parliament? They shouldn't | 0:46:29 | 0:46:33 | |
just be negotiated between
Government ministers? They should | 0:46:33 | 0:46:37 | |
act to be approved by the Scottish
Parliament. We are looking at a | 0:46:37 | 0:46:41 | |
number of powers coming back from
Europe, they should come back to the | 0:46:41 | 0:46:44 | |
Scottish Parliament for the Scottish
Parliament to decide what is right | 0:46:44 | 0:46:47 | |
for Scotland. I don't think that is
too much to ask. Sure, but the | 0:46:47 | 0:46:51 | |
crucial point is if this argument on
common frameworks, you would like | 0:46:51 | 0:46:56 | |
them to be approved by the Scottish
Parliament rather than just either | 0:46:56 | 0:47:00 | |
unilaterally decided by Westminster
or just dawned with backroom | 0:47:00 | 0:47:04 | |
negotiations. I don't think we want
to see backroom negotiations or | 0:47:04 | 0:47:09 | |
anything decided simply by
Westminster. There are many powers | 0:47:09 | 0:47:11 | |
that will be coming back to
Scotland, that should be coming back | 0:47:11 | 0:47:15 | |
to Scotland. The important thing is
the Scottish Parliament has an | 0:47:15 | 0:47:19 | |
understanding about what powers the
going to get back. We hear lots of | 0:47:19 | 0:47:23 | |
kind words, you know, from
Westminster sometimes. They have | 0:47:23 | 0:47:27 | |
obviously now decided to play a
heavy hand but we are not seeing any | 0:47:27 | 0:47:30 | |
detail about how this will impact on
the powers that should be coming | 0:47:30 | 0:47:33 | |
back to Scotland and until we see
that it is a game of smoke and | 0:47:33 | 0:47:37 | |
mirrors, unfortunately, from
Westminster. It back to university | 0:47:37 | 0:47:41 | |
strike. Graham said in the film that
Scottish tunes won't be demanding | 0:47:41 | 0:47:46 | |
compensation because they don't pay
tuition fees but there are | 0:47:46 | 0:47:49 | |
international students in | 0:47:49 | 0:47:56 | |
international students in Scotland
-- brake-mac onto the university | 0:47:57 | 0:47:59 | |
straight. There are international
students who want to be compensated. | 0:47:59 | 0:48:01 | |
People outside the EU are paying
£60,000 a year plus two study in | 0:48:01 | 0:48:03 | |
Scotland, and they see the lecturers
are to be on strike -- paying | 0:48:03 | 0:48:06 | |
£16,000 per year plus to study. They
say that money is helping fund the | 0:48:06 | 0:48:12 | |
no tuition fees policies, so is
there a case for their compensation? | 0:48:12 | 0:48:15 | |
Delight it is very disappointing to
see we have got to the point where | 0:48:15 | 0:48:18 | |
you see you have come out on strike
-- yes, it is very disappointing to | 0:48:18 | 0:48:23 | |
see that we have got to the point.
Where the UCU have come out on | 0:48:23 | 0:48:27 | |
strike. This is not in the best
interests of our universities are | 0:48:27 | 0:48:34 | |
the lecturers, and most particularly
the students, so I would want to see | 0:48:34 | 0:48:37 | |
them getting back round the table
for meaningful negotiations next | 0:48:37 | 0:48:40 | |
week. What about the issue of
compensation? To the students have a | 0:48:40 | 0:48:43 | |
case? This is something very
different in Scotland, as you have | 0:48:43 | 0:48:47 | |
said. Our student stored page
version fees. We have our two days | 0:48:47 | 0:48:52 | |
of strikes, both sides look to go
round the table next week although | 0:48:52 | 0:48:55 | |
it is with some preconditions,
unfortunately, from the University | 0:48:55 | 0:48:59 | |
side. Let's see what comes from
that. OK, but even if something | 0:48:59 | 0:49:03 | |
comes from that some of the students
will say, hang on, there have | 0:49:03 | 0:49:07 | |
already been strikes and we should
be compensated. I appreciate some | 0:49:07 | 0:49:11 | |
students will be frustrated from
that but we are seeing talks next | 0:49:11 | 0:49:14 | |
week. The talks will not be on
compensation but on the substance of | 0:49:14 | 0:49:18 | |
the issues in the dispute. The
students are saying, hang on, quite | 0:49:18 | 0:49:21 | |
apart from the nature of the dispute
which is essentially about pensions, | 0:49:21 | 0:49:25 | |
good luck to them, but we have
already lost time, and we have paid | 0:49:25 | 0:49:31 | |
for the time we have lost, and we
should be compensated. There is some | 0:49:31 | 0:49:34 | |
debate about whether there will be
on the substantive issue of the | 0:49:34 | 0:49:39 | |
pensions next week and that is why I
am calling for meaningful or but | 0:49:39 | 0:49:42 | |
certainly I will be asking to speak
to the principles and to the | 0:49:42 | 0:49:45 | |
University Scotland next week. The
breakdown further because we do need | 0:49:45 | 0:49:48 | |
to discuss very seriously the impact
it has had on students. So you might | 0:49:48 | 0:49:53 | |
consider competition? I will speak
to the rest is next week to raise my | 0:49:53 | 0:49:56 | |
concern about what has been
happening with students. We have a | 0:49:56 | 0:49:59 | |
different situation in Scotland,
only affecting of course | 0:49:59 | 0:50:07 | |
only affecting of course some of
universities, not all. What would | 0:50:08 | 0:50:09 | |
you say to an international student
who says, hang on a minute, you and | 0:50:09 | 0:50:12 | |
your Government encouraged me to
come here, and now you won't even | 0:50:12 | 0:50:14 | |
say who will discuss the issue of
compensation? -- you would even say | 0:50:14 | 0:50:19 | |
that you will. It I don't think it
is helpful for Government ministers | 0:50:19 | 0:50:22 | |
to come on at the weekend before the
talks and to raise the stakes still | 0:50:22 | 0:50:26 | |
further. I have met with the unions,
I will meet with the principles, if | 0:50:26 | 0:50:32 | |
required, if. Next week breakdown,
and let's try to do this in an | 0:50:32 | 0:50:36 | |
meaningful fashion to encourage them
to get the resolution. | 0:50:36 | 0:50:43 | |
Do you back the strikers? There are
concerns from the UC you the trade | 0:50:43 | 0:50:50 | |
union about what is happening to
their pensions. It is for the | 0:50:50 | 0:50:54 | |
universities to go through in
detail. I think it is concerning | 0:50:54 | 0:51:00 | |
that the trade union saying that
there isn't a pension deficit. The | 0:51:00 | 0:51:06 | |
universities are saying there is a
deficit. If we have a disagreement | 0:51:06 | 0:51:09 | |
about the figures on a UK level, we
need to... | 0:51:09 | 0:51:18 | |
need to... Is there an actual
pension deficit there. If there is | 0:51:18 | 0:51:21 | |
no pension deficit then it is very
hard for universities to say it | 0:51:21 | 0:51:25 | |
changes need to be made. If you cut
their wages and conditions, it | 0:51:25 | 0:51:34 | |
undermines the abilities. That has
been echoed by Jeremy Corbyn. They | 0:51:34 | 0:51:41 | |
are backing the strike but you are
not. I met with the unions last week | 0:51:41 | 0:51:45 | |
and they described a very
constructive meeting. We have very | 0:51:45 | 0:51:50 | |
good relationships with the main
trade union in Scotland. We have | 0:51:50 | 0:51:54 | |
said that the discussions with
myself and the government have been | 0:51:54 | 0:51:58 | |
constructive and we will encourage
that to continue. You have said that | 0:51:58 | 0:52:04 | |
students from European Union
countries who start their | 0:52:04 | 0:52:11 | |
countries who start their courses in
2019 will not pay fees. Is that just | 0:52:12 | 0:52:16 | |
for that year will continue. That
will continue for the duration of | 0:52:16 | 0:52:20 | |
their course. What if a student
starting 2020? We will take that | 0:52:20 | 0:52:28 | |
decision at a future date. We have
taken the decision around the | 0:52:28 | 0:52:31 | |
students for the year 2019 earlier
than anywhere else in the UK in an | 0:52:31 | 0:52:38 | |
attempt to give them some assurance.
That is in time for the | 0:52:38 | 0:52:42 | |
universities. But you don't know
about after that? We don't know a | 0:52:42 | 0:52:49 | |
lot about what is happening in
Brexit, to be frank. We don't know | 0:52:49 | 0:52:52 | |
if the students will actually have
the right to remain in an | 0:52:52 | 0:52:58 | |
immigration status. We're trying to
encourage EU students to come. It is | 0:52:58 | 0:53:06 | |
very difficult to continue to make
policies. A lot of people in | 0:53:06 | 0:53:10 | |
Scotland would say this is unfair.
We are leaving the European Union. | 0:53:10 | 0:53:14 | |
Why should EU students be able to
come here and have no tuition fees? | 0:53:14 | 0:53:22 | |
Students from England start on 9000
a year. We charge students from | 0:53:22 | 0:53:30 | |
third-party countries something like
16,000 a year. You could almost | 0:53:30 | 0:53:36 | |
have... You could invest that money
in Scottish universities. We are | 0:53:36 | 0:53:46 | |
looking -- working with
universities. I will tell you why it | 0:53:46 | 0:53:51 | |
is the right decision to make for
the university students that will | 0:53:51 | 0:53:54 | |
hopefully come in a couple of years'
time. One of the aspects of Scottish | 0:53:54 | 0:53:59 | |
education that makes it the best in
the world is a diverse campus that | 0:53:59 | 0:54:05 | |
we have. We want to encourage people
to come from Europe and further | 0:54:05 | 0:54:09 | |
afield to work, study and live after
that. But not from England China | 0:54:09 | 0:54:14 | |
would seem? It is a very important
part to our commitment to the EU. It | 0:54:14 | 0:54:20 | |
is required by DUP legislation.
Which is why there is a difference. | 0:54:20 | 0:54:27 | |
There will be a transition period in
2019. It is very difficult to make | 0:54:27 | 0:54:33 | |
policies on Brexit because of the
uncertainty that is coming from the | 0:54:33 | 0:54:36 | |
UK. We will be in a transition
period for two years. If that | 0:54:36 | 0:54:45 | |
transition requires us to have some
of the same in areas that we want to | 0:54:45 | 0:54:49 | |
see, around Freeman City freedom of
movement. We want to do this because | 0:54:49 | 0:54:56 | |
it is the right thing to do to
encourage students to come here. And | 0:54:56 | 0:55:00 | |
you very much indeed. Two weeks ago
we were examining the resignation of | 0:55:00 | 0:55:08 | |
Phil Bromley as Chief Constable of
the Scotland. | 0:55:08 | 0:55:14 | |
A few days ago, the force
was in the spotlight again | 0:55:19 | 0:55:21 | |
following a series of stinging
remarks about its "culture | 0:55:21 | 0:55:24 | |
of secrecy" and "ineptitude"
by the chief Constable of Durham, | 0:55:24 | 0:55:26 | |
Michael Barton. | 0:55:26 | 0:55:27 | |
He'd been called in after several
officers investigating leaked | 0:55:27 | 0:55:29 | |
information about the Emma Caldwell
murder inquiry were found | 0:55:29 | 0:55:31 | |
to have obtained data
without judicial permission. | 0:55:31 | 0:55:33 | |
But he told Holyrood's
justice sub-committee that | 0:55:33 | 0:55:37 | |
what he understood to be a full
investigation was downgraded | 0:55:37 | 0:55:40 | |
to an inquiry meaning he had only
restricted access to documents | 0:55:40 | 0:55:43 | |
and was unable to interview
people under caution. | 0:55:43 | 0:55:44 | |
Michael Barton joins me now. | 0:55:44 | 0:55:45 | |
Good morning. You clearly thought
there was a culture of secrecy in | 0:55:45 | 0:55:54 | |
and around the Scotland. Did you
mean by that? Please remember that I | 0:55:54 | 0:55:59 | |
was asked by Phil Gormley to come in
and do an independent investigation | 0:55:59 | 0:56:05 | |
and that is what they'll and I
thought was the deal. When I | 0:56:05 | 0:56:09 | |
actually got into the bones of this
and started working with the legal | 0:56:09 | 0:56:13 | |
department and the professional
standards department in police | 0:56:13 | 0:56:16 | |
Scotland, they took a slightly
different view. Firstly, they | 0:56:16 | 0:56:20 | |
thought that I should just be doing
an inquiry and in police Scotland | 0:56:20 | 0:56:26 | |
that means I can interview the
officers concerned. Which of course | 0:56:26 | 0:56:31 | |
is severely hampers my dealings with
those people, because if they are in | 0:56:31 | 0:56:36 | |
jeopardy I wouldn't want to speak to
them. The second thing is that in | 0:56:36 | 0:56:43 | |
the legal department, they took a
bizarre interpretation of the rules | 0:56:43 | 0:56:47 | |
in my view. They described some
conversations between senior | 0:56:47 | 0:56:55 | |
officers as legally privileged, when
there wasn't even a legal | 0:56:55 | 0:56:58 | |
professional in the room. Thirdly,
professional standards didn't want | 0:56:58 | 0:57:01 | |
to give me the address of retired
police officers because they said it | 0:57:01 | 0:57:06 | |
was vetted by the Data Protection
Act. I was a title that amused about | 0:57:06 | 0:57:11 | |
how I was going to go and see them.
You think it was an attitude? -- | 0:57:11 | 0:57:26 | |
ineptitude. I am not accusing the
Scotland of ineptitude. They do | 0:57:26 | 0:57:33 | |
fantastic work. 99.9% of the people
in the Scotland should be patted on | 0:57:33 | 0:57:38 | |
the back and applauded by their
local communities. What I talked | 0:57:38 | 0:57:42 | |
about in terms of ineptitude... This
is the other issue will stop I | 0:57:42 | 0:57:48 | |
talked about putting people in a
sack and shaking them up. I meant | 0:57:48 | 0:57:54 | |
that professional standards for
legal people in police Scotland need | 0:57:54 | 0:57:57 | |
to get their act together. Equally,
everybody else who is involved in | 0:57:57 | 0:58:03 | |
the way that investigations are
conducted north of the border league | 0:58:03 | 0:58:06 | |
to get together. Because the
regulations themselves are really | 0:58:06 | 0:58:10 | |
straightforward. For me, I had to be
a higher rank, with the right | 0:58:10 | 0:58:17 | |
experience and impartial and then I
could do an investigation. Police | 0:58:17 | 0:58:22 | |
Scotland interpreted that, as soon
as I started asking questions in the | 0:58:22 | 0:58:28 | |
inquiry phase, I could no longer be
impartial in the investigation | 0:58:28 | 0:58:32 | |
phase, which is preposterous. I do
understand why police Scotland | 0:58:32 | 0:58:37 | |
professional standards are a little
bit risk averse here because I think | 0:58:37 | 0:58:42 | |
they are facing six judicial reviews
from the Federation, so what | 0:58:42 | 0:58:51 | |
Northumberland police found was that
whenever it please officer is being | 0:58:51 | 0:59:00 | |
investigated north of the border,
there is a good chance they will | 0:59:00 | 0:59:04 | |
counter... What has happened is a
culture of people being like this. | 0:59:04 | 0:59:12 | |
What we should be doing is looking
at these things impartially, finding | 0:59:12 | 0:59:17 | |
out what lessons need to be learned,
if somebody needs a sack on the | 0:59:17 | 0:59:21 | |
wrist, sock them on the rest. At the
moment the public are utterly | 0:59:21 | 0:59:27 | |
perplexed. I am curious. You said
you were bought in the late Mark | 0:59:27 | 0:59:37 | |
brought in by Phil Gormley. He has
now left. There were various | 0:59:37 | 0:59:42 | |
allegations against him. None of
them have been proven. The way the | 0:59:42 | 0:59:46 | |
rules work is that those
investigations will never come to a | 0:59:46 | 0:59:53 | |
conclusion. There have been two
chief constables who have left. | 0:59:53 | 1:00:02 | |
chief constables who have left. Wind
you look at the state of the | 1:00:02 | 1:00:05 | |
Scotland and the fact that these
people have had to go, as a senior | 1:00:05 | 1:00:10 | |
police officer in England, would it
make you hesitate about applying for | 1:00:10 | 1:00:15 | |
a job here? I am not going to be
applying for a job. But in general | 1:00:15 | 1:00:22 | |
terms, do you think that is a risk
that police officers in England | 1:00:22 | 1:00:27 | |
think it will be a bit of a mess? I
think that is a legitimate concern, | 1:00:27 | 1:00:35 | |
but that is not my main concern. My
main concern is that, because people | 1:00:35 | 1:00:42 | |
are taking an overly legal approach
to these things, these matters take | 1:00:42 | 1:00:47 | |
years. The matter I was looking at
started as a very simple situation | 1:00:47 | 1:00:53 | |
in June... Your item meant is that
it could have been sorted out | 1:00:53 | 1:00:58 | |
quickly. That was my evidence to
Parliament. I would have attempted | 1:00:58 | 1:01:03 | |
to resolve it in June 2015. With a
fair wind, I would have resolved | 1:01:03 | 1:01:09 | |
this by the middle of July. For
people in jeopardy would have been | 1:01:09 | 1:01:14 | |
brought in, I would have personally
apologised and offered recompense | 1:01:14 | 1:01:19 | |
and we would have moved on. Forget
the inquiry. Your general | 1:01:19 | 1:01:26 | |
impressions? It is obviously very
controversial. The equivalent for | 1:01:26 | 1:01:33 | |
you is that you had to merge with
Northumbria and Manchester, every | 1:01:33 | 1:01:41 | |
police force in the North of
England. Would you be comfortable | 1:01:41 | 1:01:43 | |
with that do you think it is
better...? Durham is a reasonably | 1:01:43 | 1:01:49 | |
small force. We are the 32nd biggest
force in England. The experience we | 1:01:49 | 1:02:02 | |
have of creating a national police
force is unique in the UK and I just | 1:02:02 | 1:02:07 | |
think that it has been really tough
for people in Scotland. I'm in touch | 1:02:07 | 1:02:13 | |
with police officers and there is no
doubt that front line cops from the | 1:02:13 | 1:02:23 | |
eight constituent forces and is
happy about working properly | 1:02:23 | 1:02:27 | |
Scotland. I actually understand the
argument for economies of scale. My | 1:02:27 | 1:02:33 | |
personal opinion is that policing is
very local. I think it should be a | 1:02:33 | 1:02:40 | |
partnership with locals and local
people should be really confident | 1:02:40 | 1:02:45 | |
that they understand who they
achieved Constable is and they have | 1:02:45 | 1:02:50 | |
got that relationship. If I were
Chief Constable of the North of | 1:02:50 | 1:02:53 | |
England, it would be jolly difficult
for me to do my job. Thank you very | 1:02:53 | 1:02:59 | |
much for joining us. There is still
no agreement over Brexit. | 1:02:59 | 1:03:07 | |
There's still no agreement over
Brexit between the UK | 1:03:07 | 1:03:09 | |
and Scottish governments,
but both came out of the latest | 1:03:09 | 1:03:11 | |
round of talks saying
progress had been made. | 1:03:11 | 1:03:13 | |
While Scotland's Brexit Minister
Michael Russell underlined the need | 1:03:13 | 1:03:15 | |
to give parliament here authority
over powers that'll eventually be | 1:03:15 | 1:03:18 | |
returned from Brussels,
Scottish Secretary David Mundell | 1:03:18 | 1:03:19 | |
said he was hopeful
a deal could be reached. | 1:03:19 | 1:03:22 | |
I'm joined now by SNP MSP
Ash Denham and Scottish | 1:03:22 | 1:03:24 | |
Conservative MSP Miles Briggs. | 1:03:24 | 1:03:28 | |
Ash Denham, I am dubious as to what
you made of what David Lidington had | 1:03:28 | 1:03:33 | |
to say. Clearly some progress has
been made last week at the... My | 1:03:33 | 1:03:41 | |
personal view about where we are at
the moment is that the UK Government | 1:03:41 | 1:03:45 | |
still seems to be sleepwalking
towards a constitutional crisis and | 1:03:45 | 1:03:49 | |
not enough progress has been made.
They need to come out this morning. | 1:03:49 | 1:03:55 | |
I have seen some reports saying that
the SNP will potentially damage some | 1:03:55 | 1:03:59 | |
trade deals going forward. First of
all, that is completely wrong and | 1:03:59 | 1:04:03 | |
second of all, that is the signs of
a weak government that are trying to | 1:04:03 | 1:04:07 | |
blow up is smoke screen because they
are unable to come to the table with | 1:04:07 | 1:04:12 | |
serious proposals to satisfy the
Scottish Government. It is unanimous | 1:04:12 | 1:04:16 | |
across Parliament. We have a
Scottish committee, unanimous across | 1:04:16 | 1:04:23 | |
all the parties, saying that the
BLEEP in must be resolved. They need | 1:04:23 | 1:04:30 | |
to show some leadership. They need
to engage constructively and try to | 1:04:30 | 1:04:34 | |
solve this impasse. I... There are
specific proposals. Cost of living | 1:04:34 | 1:04:46 | |
would be change. Everything will
come back to Scotland but the | 1:04:46 | 1:04:49 | |
British woman would ask the Scottish
Government not to change rules in | 1:04:49 | 1:04:54 | |
certain areas until there were
negotiations. Is that your | 1:04:54 | 1:04:57 | |
understanding? Yes. This is where we
are working to find a compromise. It | 1:04:57 | 1:05:03 | |
is important that we have this
conversation and are able to seek | 1:05:03 | 1:05:10 | |
and move forward a complex issue. In
terms of David Lidington's comments, | 1:05:10 | 1:05:16 | |
the UK single market is worth four
times that of the EU one. It is | 1:05:16 | 1:05:21 | |
vital for Scottish businesses that
we don't have a differentiation | 1:05:21 | 1:05:24 | |
across the single market. What is
actually happening? Presumably, the | 1:05:24 | 1:05:31 | |
argument against what you are
proposing is that it kicks it one | 1:05:31 | 1:05:36 | |
stage back because the question is,
who decides on which areas the | 1:05:36 | 1:05:40 | |
Scottish Government would then agree
not to change the rules and who then | 1:05:40 | 1:05:47 | |
decides on the common framework?
Should it be negotiations or should | 1:05:47 | 1:05:53 | |
the Scottish Parliament have the
right to vote on what areas are | 1:05:53 | 1:05:56 | |
common? Clause 11 will provide that
opportunity. We would like to see | 1:05:56 | 1:06:04 | |
those powers come back to Holyrood
to strengthening the Scottish | 1:06:04 | 1:06:10 | |
Parliament. There are cross-border
issues which we don't have agreement | 1:06:10 | 1:06:13 | |
on yet. Both governments are looking
towards where these powers are going | 1:06:13 | 1:06:21 | |
to have a common-sense approach. It
is something we should all be | 1:06:21 | 1:06:24 | |
working towards. Governments and
ministers are working towards that. | 1:06:24 | 1:06:27 | |
We can move both countries forward.
This idea that the Scottish | 1:06:27 | 1:06:33 | |
Government will get back powers but
not use them to change things, is | 1:06:33 | 1:06:37 | |
that unreasonable? The point about
David Linton is that if we start | 1:06:37 | 1:06:46 | |
changing trade standards on certain
products and Britain is negotiating | 1:06:46 | 1:06:49 | |
a trade deal, the British government
needs to know that those stab and -- | 1:06:49 | 1:06:58 | |
standards are common. The Scottish
Government have been clear about | 1:06:58 | 1:07:05 | |
this right from the start. Whether
businesses seek to have it common | 1:07:05 | 1:07:10 | |
framework it is agreed with the
Scottish Parliament. It has to be | 1:07:10 | 1:07:13 | |
agreed. We are saying that at the
moment the level of involvement on | 1:07:13 | 1:07:20 | |
the Scottish Parliament hasn't been
enough. If you look at examples... | 1:07:20 | 1:07:28 | |
Miles Briggs said no, they have
agreed to change clause 11. That is | 1:07:29 | 1:07:35 | |
not what they are saying. That is
not what they said last week. At the | 1:07:35 | 1:07:41 | |
moment the proposals that have been
put forward fall far short of that. | 1:07:41 | 1:07:45 | |
It is still undercutting devolution.
It is still a position where there | 1:07:45 | 1:07:52 | |
would be vetoes or imposition on top
of another layer above the Scottish | 1:07:52 | 1:07:59 | |
Parliament. It is undermining
devolution. Things that are | 1:07:59 | 1:08:04 | |
currently devolved was the
controlled by the Scottish | 1:08:04 | 1:08:06 | |
Parliament. We seem to have a
disagreement on the facts. Miles | 1:08:06 | 1:08:15 | |
Briggs, is what Ash Denham has said,
is that what your understanding is? | 1:08:15 | 1:08:19 | |
No. The language... We are trying to
work this out to make sure it that | 1:08:19 | 1:08:33 | |
as the EQ leaves the European union,
we will have an advantage as an | 1:08:33 | 1:08:40 | |
economy. Thank you both very much. | 1:08:40 | 1:08:49 | |
We will have to leave it there. | 1:08:49 | 1:08:50 | |
It's time to look back
on what's happened this week | 1:08:50 | 1:08:53 | |
and what's coming up. | 1:08:53 | 1:08:55 | |
I'm joined now by Hamish McDonald
and Shona Craven. There is a | 1:08:55 | 1:09:04 | |
disagreement, is in there? Well, I'm
not sure there's a disagreement, but | 1:09:04 | 1:09:08 | |
clearly some deal has been proposed,
or done. It's just the details. They | 1:09:08 | 1:09:13 | |
seem to be disagreeing about what
should happen but also on what the | 1:09:13 | 1:09:18 | |
details actually are? My impression
is what the UK Government has put on | 1:09:18 | 1:09:22 | |
the table is that all the powers
will go back to Hollywood but that | 1:09:22 | 1:09:28 | |
Westminster retains a veto on up to
25 of them -- they will go back to | 1:09:28 | 1:09:35 | |
Holyrood. And they retained a veto
until that is good place. -- until | 1:09:35 | 1:09:42 | |
that is put in place. If this works
for England, Ireland, the whole lot, | 1:09:42 | 1:09:47 | |
it has to be done originating in
London because London is the only | 1:09:47 | 1:09:50 | |
place that can see properly or the
needs of the UK. The Scottish | 1:09:50 | 1:09:55 | |
Government has a fair point, in
saying, firstly, this is going over | 1:09:55 | 1:09:59 | |
devolution because of the
devolutionary powers, but also where | 1:09:59 | 1:10:01 | |
does that leave the Scottish
Government and the Scottish | 1:10:01 | 1:10:04 | |
Parliament when it comes to things
like trade deals? It is a matter of | 1:10:04 | 1:10:08 | |
trust? Yes, and I think there is
definitely an argument to be made. | 1:10:08 | 1:10:12 | |
If you see we are giving the powers
are shifting them to Holyrood but we | 1:10:12 | 1:10:16 | |
will tell you how to use them, I'm
not quite sure that amounts to | 1:10:16 | 1:10:19 | |
having a power if you are then
told... One version was that the | 1:10:19 | 1:10:24 | |
powers would go to Scotland, but
there would be an agreement that | 1:10:24 | 1:10:30 | |
they should not be altered, let's
say, an trading standards, until | 1:10:30 | 1:10:34 | |
what was going to be part of a
common framework was sorted out. | 1:10:34 | 1:10:40 | |
Yes? Yes, that is how it seems to
me. Would it be an agreement? The | 1:10:40 | 1:10:44 | |
point Ash Denham was making.
Something agreed or something | 1:10:44 | 1:10:48 | |
decided by Westminster, then the
Scottish Government are told, you | 1:10:48 | 1:10:50 | |
have to agree with this. Yes, hang
on, doesn't mean the Scottish | 1:10:50 | 1:10:55 | |
Parliament has to agree on the
common framework? Does the British | 1:10:55 | 1:10:58 | |
Parliament have to? How is this
decided? My feeling is that both | 1:10:58 | 1:11:03 | |
sides are not terribly far apart.
They have actually come quite a long | 1:11:03 | 1:11:07 | |
way, and that last little inch is
proving difficult. As you say, it is | 1:11:07 | 1:11:11 | |
a question of trust. I don't think
the UK Government is going out of | 1:11:11 | 1:11:15 | |
its way through, you know, say to
the Scottish Government, no, we will | 1:11:15 | 1:11:19 | |
turn you over on this or that, but
it appears to be the way the | 1:11:19 | 1:11:21 | |
Scottish Government views it. They
think London will turn them over and | 1:11:21 | 1:11:24 | |
it is not the case. But can't you
see why? Given the way they framed | 1:11:24 | 1:11:32 | |
clause 11 in the first place, which
arguably seemed to ride roughshod | 1:11:32 | 1:11:36 | |
over the Scottish Government? Of
course there is a lack of trust but | 1:11:36 | 1:11:38 | |
I would also look cynically on the
Sunday Telegraph's headline, Brexit, | 1:11:38 | 1:11:43 | |
trade deals could be ruined by the
SNP. Wouldn't that be convenient, if | 1:11:43 | 1:11:47 | |
the reason they were there and was
because of the SNP and not because | 1:11:47 | 1:11:50 | |
the whole Brexit thing is
unworkable, because of Northern | 1:11:50 | 1:11:54 | |
Ireland etc? Wouldn't it be
convenient if Scotland was the | 1:11:54 | 1:11:58 | |
problem? The other big Brexit | 1:11:58 | 1:12:04 | |
move is Starmer was talking to
Andrew Marr this morning. There have | 1:12:10 | 1:12:12 | |
been hits, actual on this programme
a few weeks ago, Richard Leonard | 1:12:12 | 1:12:15 | |
said he would favour a customs union
and that now seems to be Labour | 1:12:15 | 1:12:17 | |
policy. In Scotland, what is
happening is Richard Leonard is | 1:12:17 | 1:12:19 | |
being pushed by elements within the
Scottish Labour Party to take a | 1:12:19 | 1:12:22 | |
softer approach to Brexit. I think
Richard Leonard is instinctively | 1:12:22 | 1:12:24 | |
more hostile to a soft Brexit... But
the significance of what Keir | 1:12:24 | 1:12:28 | |
Starmer is saying is that the, I
mean, in Westminster, if Labour say | 1:12:28 | 1:12:34 | |
they want to stay a customs union,
they may well be able to force that | 1:12:34 | 1:12:40 | |
through parliament? They may well be
one of the reasons they are doing | 1:12:40 | 1:12:43 | |
this I think is that they are fed by
not embracing a more Remain approach | 1:12:43 | 1:12:47 | |
they are losing a lot of those young
voters that they were so pleased to | 1:12:47 | 1:12:51 | |
get at the last election, who are
desperate to have as closer | 1:12:51 | 1:12:54 | |
relationship with Europe as they
possibly can. But it does change the | 1:12:54 | 1:12:57 | |
arithmetic, doesn't it, Ash? If
Labour comes round to staying in the | 1:12:57 | 1:13:08 | |
single market -- doesn't it, Shona?
SNP would back him, the Lib Dems, | 1:13:08 | 1:13:13 | |
certainly, they could well... It
could well be enough to actually | 1:13:13 | 1:13:17 | |
stop Theresa May in her tracks? It
could be, a shimmering Theresa May | 1:13:17 | 1:13:21 | |
actually wants... We still don't
really know what she actually wants. | 1:13:21 | 1:13:24 | |
She has said we will leave the
customs union, she has been clear | 1:13:24 | 1:13:27 | |
about that right from the start. And
not necessarily sure I trust | 1:13:27 | 1:13:32 | |
anything she has said. This is all a
game of strategy and looking like | 1:13:32 | 1:13:35 | |
you're trying to do what the voters
what even if that might not happen. | 1:13:35 | 1:13:39 | |
We will have to leave it there.
Thank you both very much. | 1:13:39 | 1:13:41 | |
That's all from the us this week. | 1:13:41 | 1:13:43 | |
I'll be back at the
same time next week. | 1:13:43 | 1:13:51 |