25/02/2018 Sunday Politics Scotland


25/02/2018

Sarah Smith and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Kate McCann, Steve Richards and Iain Dale are on the political panel.


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Coming up and today's programme,

having knocked cabinet heads

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together Theresa May lays out her

plan for Brexit, but can she keep a

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low party onside? We will be

speaking to a former Tory leader.

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Waiting in the wings is this man but

can Jeremy Corbyn unite opposing

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forces in his own party, and

convince the electorate he would do

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a better job Brexit?

Forthcoming local elections in

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England should give a clue about

outcomes of the two parties.

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And on Sunday Politics Scotland,

I'll be asking the Scottish Higher

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Education Minister whether strikes

by university lecturers over

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pensions are symptomatic

of a bigger funding problem.

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And as usual, we've got three

Westminster insiders who will take

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us behind the headlines and tell us

what's really going on.

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Today I'm joined by Iain Dale,

Kate McCann and Steve Richards.

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Next month, Theresa May

will begin formal negotiations

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with her European counterparts

on what the future EU-UK

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relationship should look like.

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This week, she will lay

out her vision of life after Brexit

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and she'll declare that our "best

days really do lie ahead of us".

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EU leaders beg to differ though,

and have already taken

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some pre-emptive swipes.

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But, while the talk is likely

to get tough in Brussels,

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the key battles could be

played out closer to home.

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It's known as the Brexit war

committee, but the smiles suggested

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an outbreak of peace among

the Cabinet's big beasts.

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For now, at least.

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They'd arrived at Chequers,

the Prime Minister's country

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retreat, on Thursday afternoon,

to try and agree a common position

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for the next round of Brexit talks.

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Eight hours later, ministers

were apparently still smiling,

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having agreed on something called

ambitious managed divergences

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and future trade with the EU.

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One of those present

said the Prime Minister

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had played a blinder,

but will it be enough to hold

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the whole party together?

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Earlier in the week,

a letter from the pro-Brexit

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European reform group found its way

into the newspapers,

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politely reminding the Prime

Minister that when we leave,

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nothing but full regulatory autonomy

will be good enough.

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But it's Remain-minded Tories

who could throw a real

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spanner in the works.

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Conservative MP Anna Soubry

announced on Thursday she had...

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"Tabled a new amendment to the trade

bill to force the government to form

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a customs union with the EU".

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27 other EU countries also

need to be won over.

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Brexit Secretary David Davis

was in Vienna on Tuesday,

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colourfully describing what Brexit

will not look like.

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They fear that Brexit will lead

to an Anglo-Saxon race

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to the bottom, with Britain plunged

into a Mad Max style world borrowed

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from dystopian fiction.

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These fears about a race

to the bottom are based on nothing.

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But the EU are not convinced.

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European Council President Donald

Tusk arguing that the UK

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was still trying to

cherry pick its future

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relationship with the EU.

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I'm afraid that the UK position

today is based on pure illusion.

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Until now, Jeremy Corbyn

has played his Brexit

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cards close to his chest.

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He may begin to reveal his hand

in a major speech tomorrow and this

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week he unusually raised Brexit

at Prime Minister's Questions.

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This government isn't on the road

to Brexit, Mr Speaker,

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it's on the road to nowhere.

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Can I congratulate the right

honourable gentleman,

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because normally he stands up

every week and asks me

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to sign a blank cheque.

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And I know he likes cheques, but,

really, that is terribly...

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That was a reference to reports

that the Labour leader had held

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meetings with the former

Czechoslovakian spy in the 1980s.

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Mr Corbyn hit back at those reports

with a social media video,

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in which he said rather cryptically,

"Change is coming to

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the newspaper industry".

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Publishing these ridiculous smears

that have been refuted by Czech

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officials shows just how worried

the media bosses are at the prospect

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of a Labour government.

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They are right to be.

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Tory MP Ben Bradley had to apologise

to Mr Corbyn over a tweet

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about the allegations, saying...

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But it wasn't all Brexit

and brush passes.

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The Prime Minister began

the week announcing a review

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into higher education.

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We now have one of the most

expensive systems of university

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tuition in the world.

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Theresa May wants to demonstrate

her government isn't

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simply defined by Brexit,

but navigating the complications

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of leaving the EU is

an all consuming task.

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If she can avoid it

consuming her career, that

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could be her greatest achievement.

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Steve, Kate and Iain

were watching that with me.

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Let's chew over what has been

happening this week. People saying

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that meeting at Chequers, the Prime

Minister played a blinder and got

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the Cabinet to agree. Outside the

Cabinet, it looks like she is

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assaulted on all sides by

pro-Brexit, pro had Brexit Tory MPs,

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the EU, it's not as easy as all

that?

It is never going to be easy

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for a Prime Minister who hasn't got

a Parliamentary majority. She is

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very resilient. Whenever she's

knocked down, she bounces back

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again. I think she has had quite a

reasonable week this week, starting

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off on the front foot and tuition

fees and ending the week with the

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meeting at Chequers. I think a lot

of commentators thought it was going

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to be a disaster, that they would

agree on the way board. The proof in

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the pudding will be on what she says

in the speech on Friday. We have

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Jeremy Corbyn mandates and

effectively she has to up with

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probably quite a lot more detail

than she has done in the past. I

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think they have the basis for that

now.

Kate, we've talked a lot on

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this programme about the arguments

within the Cabinet but now it looks

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like the focus is now on the wider

Conservative Party. You have

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probably remain MPs like Anna Soubry

saying they want to stay in the

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customs union, a letter from pro

except MPs like Jacob Rees-Mogg

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saying they want full regulatory

divergence. Which group is likely to

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win the day?

I think what is most

interesting this week will be Jeremy

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Corbyn's speech on Monday. That

comes before Theresa May's speech on

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Friday. That will help tip those two

sites, as it were, and we will see

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what will happen with the customs

union. Jeremy Corbyn is likely to

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say he would like to stay in a

customs union that is likely to make

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the Tory MPs on the Tories I'd like

Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, who

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want to back and push for a customs

union feel like they have more

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control over that. Whether it is

likely not promote we are yet to

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see. If Labour is shifting its

customs union position that much,

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that gives Tory MPs a lot more

strength in the House of Commons

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because the government has already

pushed back a vote on the customs

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union because they are worried about

what is going happen.

Those pro

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remain Tories on the Labour Party

believe they have the Parliamentary

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arithmetic to force a defeat on the

government over the customs union,

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are they right about that?

Certainly

in theory they are right. There are

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enough Conservative MPs and if the

opposition vote for this, the

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government faces a defeat with

profound consequences. We will not

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know probably until the moment when

the vote takes place. It will be a

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moment of one of these great

Parliamentary dramas, where there

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will be huge pressure on Tory MPs

not to go along with this and say,

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you are in alliance with Jeremy

Corbyn and so on. We won't know

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until the vote but in theory they

have the numbers. It would be a game

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changer if this amendment was

carried.

This is fascinating. It

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means the power has gone to the

house of parliament and has left

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number ten and the Cabinet, Hilary

Benn described this as a backbencher

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's parliament because the government

doesn't have a majority. Is that

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where the authority lies now?

In

some ideas. I'm not sure if I agree

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about the Parliamentary arithmetic

because some will die with the

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Conservatives, and we will hear from

one later, Frank Field. There are a

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group of them. I wonder about the

numbers on the Tory benches, there

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is a hard-core group of about ten or

a dozen that you think might well

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support Anna Soubry's amendment but

I don't really see it going much

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beyond that. But you are right, it

will be on a bit of a knife edge. If

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it came to the government were

defeated on this, then we are in

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uncharted waters, because the

government could actually make it a

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vote of confidence. It would be very

unusual to do one on an amendment to

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a bill but it is possible, or they

could call a vote of confidence that

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would put Anna Soubry and all the

others in

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others in a bit a tricky position.

If they did vote against the

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government on a vote of confidence,

they would have to be deselected.

We

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will talk about that throughout the

programme.

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Listening to all that is the former

Conservative leader,

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and leading Brexit campaigner,

Iain Duncan Smith.

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Welcome to the programme. Do you

accept there is a significant chance

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the government could be defeated on

a customs union in the House of

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Commons question when you don't have

a majority there is a chance to be

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defeated on anything.

I love the way

the media looks at this cost would

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take a pace back, it's a government

that won the election and didn't get

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an overall majority so it means

almost anything anyone is upset

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about could cause a problem for the

government, fact of life. Brexit is

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just one, it's a very big issue but

one of those, there has been other

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issues and there will be on the

issue is following through.

It

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matters to you whether we are in a

customs union with the EU?

Lots of

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things deeply matter to me, beyond

Brexit. But yes. I think the key

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thing is not what I believe but the

Prime Minister has been pretty clear

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about this from the word go, way

before the election, during the

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election importantly and even

subsequently she has made it very

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clear we are taking back control,

leaving the customs union, single

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market, and at the same time making

sure we get outside of the remit of

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the court of justice. She has been

clear about this.

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Let's pick a bit of that. In her

Lancaster House speech she said she

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wanted us to have a customs

agreement with the EU, not a customs

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union but customs agreement. This

controversial amendment Anna Soubry

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another Superdome says they want an

agreement that enables the UK to be

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able to participate in a customs

union with the EU, is there space

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for that?

It depends what the detail

is. The government set it out quite

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rightly on having a proper free

trade arrang ement. You can describe

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a free-trade arrangement in all

different ways but a free-trade

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arrangement is about us having a

clear ability to sell-out goods into

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the European Union them to sell us

without artificial trade barriers

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that will require arrangements that

out customs arrangements. The big

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them to sell us without artificial

trade barriers and that will require

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arrangements that out customs

arrangements. The behind having a

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customs union and being outside a

free-trade arrangement is we are 90%

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of the graces in the global economy

in the next two years, we will be

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free to do that. If we are in a

customs union, you to make trade

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arrangements with America,

Australia, India, where ever we want

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to, where 90% of the growth is in

the global economy in the next two

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years, we will be free to do that.

If we are in a customs union, you

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agree do that and therefore we would

have to what the European Union to

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what the European certainly be

outvoted endlessly. This is about

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where does the power light and we

would almost certainly be outvoted

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endlessly. This is about where does

the with the rest of the world in a

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moment but exactly what you

describe, the free-trade arrangement

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with no tariffs with the EU

and the

freedom to make those deals, that is

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what the EU called cherry picking?

What they really called cherry

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picking is this arrangement we are

talking about now, a customs union.

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They have been pretty clear about

this. They said it is not

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acceptable. Let's look at it from

the European Union to make those

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agreements?

I want to get into the

detail on free-trade deals with the

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rest of the world in a moment but

exactly what you describe, the

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free-trade arrangement with no

tariffs with the EU and the freedom

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to make those deals, that is what

the EU called cherry picking?

What

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they really called cherry picking is

this arrangement we are talking

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about now, a customs union. They

have been pretty clear about this.

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They said it is not acceptable.

Let's look at it from the European

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Union's standpoint. We constantly

look at what the UK once. You use is

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certainly not going to agree going

into a customs union where we will

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then have over any future agreement,

so we will outvote all 27 because we

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that would depend on the agreement.

...

That would depend on the

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agreement. The EU wants would have

enormous power against them, they an

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agreement, we would have enormous

power against them, they won't agree

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because it is not in their interests

to do I think what is more in

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arrangement. There are lots of

countries that are already breaking

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ranks with the commission about

this, Italy, Sweden, Holland said we

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have to have a free-trade

arrangement.

They are not on that

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yet, they are still on the

implementation phase. When it comes

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to free trade, I am very, very

certain that they will want to make

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an arrangement with us because it is

in their interests, arguably more

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than us. , they want a free-trade

arrangement. There are lots of

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countries that are already breaking

ranks with the commission about

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this, Italy, Sweden, Holland said we

have to have a free-trade

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arrangement. They are not on that

yet, they are still on the

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implementation phase. When it comes

to free-trade, I am very, very

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certain that they will want to make

an arrangement with us because it is

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in their interests, arguably more

than us let's move on to trade with

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the rest of the world. Why do so

absolutely convinced that the

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ability to do with Australia, China,

the ones the EU has at the,

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different from the ones the EU has

at increasing our trade with these

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countries from inside the EU? Their

biggest

are so terribly important?

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Why can't we be increasing our trade

with these countries from inside the

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EU?

Their biggest free-trade we are

naturally, the UK, more than any

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other country in the European

country, arguably more than most in

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the world, a free-trade for free

trade the WTO has a ready said they

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love the idea of us coming back as a

full voting member because we will

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argue for free trade. By, global

free trade and services, which stop

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because the European Union has not

wanted to push the site at all.

Do

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so much more trade with China than

us from within the EU?

That is to do

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with what Germany says they want to

do and go and do it Germany do so

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much more trade with China than us

from within the EU? That is to do

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with what Germany says they want to

do and go and do it.

Being a member

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of the EU has being a member of the

EU be outside the that so why do we

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have to be outside you get rid of

artificial tarry

that is not

0:14:460:14:52

parallel argument. By getting trade

arrangements you get rid of

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artificial and delays at the borders

that allows you to increase your

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trade. We want from where we are.

But at the same time, incoming stuff

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is just as important. The people who

will benefit most from a free-trade

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arrangement of the poorest in

society because the cost of food,

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footwear and clothing will almost

certainly our trade from where we

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are. But at the same time, incoming

stuff is just as important.

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You might as much larger and more

important market. The skill is not

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that important. The key thing is, do

you value a marketplace, is it worth

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doing business with? Financial

services is an important are great

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-- an important area you want to

strike agreements with. The UK's

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dominant in financial services and

you cannot get a free-trade

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agreement within the single market

at the moment. You cannot sell

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insurance in Germany without having

a company in Germany to sell it.

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They have never wanted to do

financial service is free trade. We

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will be in a much better state

globally. You have seen the increase

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in New Zealand's trade when they

went for free-trade and got rid of

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their trade barriers.

A dramatic

increase in no global position. The

0:16:050:16:09

tragedy led to this and they reckon

a free-trade deal with America we

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did 0.02% to the UK's GDP.

I have a

bone to pick with the BBC. There has

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been a brilliant economic report are

independent, which has been given

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very little coverage which is taken

apart the model that the Treasury

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and the government put together. For

example, dealing with this. The

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reason why you arrive at this, it

depends on what you assume to be the

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actual savings on the border. The

government has only assumed a 4%

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saving on getting rid of tariff

barriers. Almost every economist in

0:16:440:16:48

the world agrees it is nearer to 20%

saving.

This study has been covered

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on the BBC it was on the Daily

Politics on Friday. It assumes zero

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tariffs on absolutely everything. It

is an extremely optimistic forecast.

0:16:590:17:04

It assumes a 10% tariff at the end

of the day, it assumes tariffs

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falling to an average of 10%, not

zero. If they went to zero it would

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improve it even more. I have read

this report backwards.

One of the

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officers says that while there will

be benefits from free-trade deals,

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over time it would be likely we

would mostly eliminate manufacturing

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in UK by the things that would be

worth it and it should not us.

That

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was one of the original suggestions,

much earlier.

But he was one of the

0:17:310:17:36

authors of this report.

He was but

he has accepted this is not going to

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be the case within this report.

They're assuming that the border

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changes will mean less of a tariff

on the borders at average. That is

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what happens in most other

free-trade arrangements. The point

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I'm making is it has a massive

benefit to the UK for us to do this.

0:17:510:17:56

That is why going for a free-trade

agreement with the European Union is

0:17:560:17:58

the right way to go. We forget what

Europe itself once.

Labour is in a

0:17:580:18:07

complete mess about this. We will

talk to this about -- we will talk

0:18:070:18:10

to them about that.

They were in

favour of leaving the customs union

0:18:100:18:14

and the single market and Barry

Gardner said it was making a vassal

0:18:140:18:17

state if you stayed in the customs

union. We will ask Labour themselves

0:18:170:18:22

about that. Theresa May has made it

clear where out of the single market

0:18:220:18:26

and Customs union and I say to my

colleagues who want to change some

0:18:260:18:29

of this, just be very careful on

this one, because being invited into

0:18:290:18:34

a Labour Party tactical game which

will end up in real damage the

0:18:340:18:38

United Kingdom.

Iain Duncan Smith,

thank you very much for talking to

0:18:380:18:42

us.

0:18:420:18:43

So much for the Conservatives,

but what about Labour?

0:18:430:18:45

In 24 hours' time,

Jeremy Corbyn will give

0:18:450:18:47

a keynote speech on Brexit.

0:18:470:18:48

All the signs are that he will back

the UK staying permanently

0:18:480:18:51

in a customs union with the EU.

0:18:510:18:53

But over 80 senior Labour figures

have today urged Mr Corbyn to go

0:18:530:18:56

further and support staying

in the single market as well.

0:18:560:18:59

But how would that go down

with the millions of Labour

0:18:590:19:01

voters who backed Brexit?

0:19:010:19:02

Here's what the Shadow Brexit

Secretary, Keir Starmer,

0:19:020:19:04

said this morning.

0:19:040:19:05

Well, we have long championed

being in a customs union with the EU

0:19:050:19:08

and the benefits of that.

0:19:080:19:13

Obviously, it is the only way,

realistically, to get

0:19:130:19:15

tariff free access.

0:19:150:19:17

It is really important

for our manufacturing base

0:19:170:19:21

and nobody can answer the question

how you keep your commitment to no

0:19:210:19:24

hard border in Northern Ireland

without a customs union.

0:19:240:19:26

We have always said

that the benefits of the single

0:19:260:19:29

market must be there in the final

agreement and that is a really

0:19:290:19:32

important commitment

because in the end, however

0:19:320:19:34

you arrive at that, in whatever

the instrument or agreement it is,

0:19:340:19:36

the benefits have got to be there.

0:19:360:19:38

Labour is agreed on that end state.

0:19:380:19:40

There is obviously an argument

about how we get there.

0:19:400:19:43

To discuss this I'm joined by two

Labour MPs who fall on opposing

0:19:430:19:45

sides of the Brexit argument.

0:19:450:19:47

Frank Field campaigned to leave

the EU and Stella Creasy

0:19:470:19:49

is a supporter of the pro-European

group Open Britain.

0:19:490:19:52

Thank you both for coming on the

programme. Stella Creasy, you have

0:19:520:19:57

signed this letter to Jeremy Corbyn

to be asking not only to stay in the

0:19:570:20:00

customs union but also the single

market. If you're in both of them, I

0:20:000:20:06

really delivering on the referendum

Brexit result?

There are lots of

0:20:060:20:11

different combinations that still

see is leaving the European Union

0:20:110:20:14

but do what Labour people across

this country, and that is why there

0:20:140:20:18

is support across the country and

the party for this letter, which is

0:20:180:20:21

to protect the jobs and incomes. We

know that Brexit, any of the models,

0:20:210:20:27

I am horrified to your Iain Duncan

Smith dismissing the idea that

0:20:270:20:30

manufacturing may be at stake or the

numbers don't matter. It is a

0:20:300:20:34

massive hit on our economy. It is a

massive hit took peace in Northern

0:20:340:20:39

Ireland if we leave the customs

union. These are called labour

0:20:390:20:42

values and that is what we are

standing up for.

You're asking to

0:20:420:20:46

stay in the single market. The

problem with that is you thought an

0:20:460:20:50

election last year under a manifesto

which said that free movement will

0:20:500:20:55

end.

You cannot do both. I am in the

migration committee on the Council

0:20:550:20:58

of Europe. Lots of people are

willing to talk about how we make

0:20:580:21:02

freedom of movement work. They

recognise politicians have not got

0:21:020:21:05

it right across the continent. If we

are not fighting to stay in the

0:21:050:21:10

single market we cannot have that

conversation about what the reformed

0:21:100:21:13

freedom of movement might look like.

I think freedom of movement is an

0:21:130:21:17

important right for people in this

country. I do not want to have to

0:21:170:21:21

see the kids in Walthamstow

Birkenhead that their ability to

0:21:210:21:23

work for a company that has a base

outside the UK will be hampered by

0:21:230:21:27

decisions we've made. That puts them

in an austerity Britain and I do not

0:21:270:21:34

want to do that.

Frank Field, does

this sound like a Brexit you could

0:21:340:21:37

sell to any leave photo?

No, and you

know perfectly well we cannot sell

0:21:370:21:42

it. I am looking forward to what

Jeremy Corbyn says tomorrow because

0:21:420:21:46

you have hyped it up. On every vote

we have had Onuora before he came --

0:21:460:21:53

before he became leader, Jeremy

Corbyn and I were deeply suspicious

0:21:530:21:56

of this organisation which is

corrupt, it has never got its

0:21:560:22:00

accounts audited, it is bankrupt.

Whatever he says tomorrow he will

0:22:000:22:05

not be arguing to stay in the EU, he

will be arguing for the customs

0:22:050:22:09

union?

Please, let me finish. It is

deeply corrupt. It is bankrupt. It

0:22:090:22:18

has destabilised Europe with all

this pretence about it has brought

0:22:180:22:22

peace. Look what we have done to the

area around Russia. Given there are

0:22:220:22:29

number of states within Europe who

depend on our contribution, we

0:22:290:22:33

should be voting for a clear

decorate -- a clear declaration, we

0:22:330:22:37

want a free-trade area, and we have

money. What are you going to choose.

0:22:370:22:43

I think we should take the gloves

off in these negotiations and look

0:22:430:22:46

at the real power structure. They

need our money, and for reasons

0:22:460:22:51

which Stella Creasy has put forward,

we need access to a free-market

0:22:510:22:56

arrangement.

What is your problem

with Jeremy Corbyn saying that the

0:22:560:22:59

Labour policy will be too clearly

stay in a customs union?

Two things.

0:22:590:23:05

One, it goes against what we said at

the election. It goes against all

0:23:050:23:11

the scare tactics during the

campaign, all the major figures were

0:23:110:23:16

saying, you know, if you vote here,

you're leaving the customs union,

0:23:160:23:21

you're leaving the free market.

There was no question about what the

0:23:210:23:25

referendum was deciding. And the

politics of this is, are we going to

0:23:250:23:31

be run by a London agenda? I know

Stella Creasy has got other issues

0:23:310:23:36

that she reaches out across the

country, but this is essentially a

0:23:360:23:42

London agenda against Labour voters,

particularly in the North.

0:23:420:23:45

THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

You have got the mayor of Liverpool

0:23:450:23:50

who signed this letter, the leader

of Newcastle Council.

You and I

0:23:500:23:54

would in the lobby fighting together

against this government's welfare

0:23:540:23:58

cuts.

£12 billion cuts.

That is

nothing to do with this. It

0:23:580:24:02

absolutely is. Even the bare minimal

model we are talking about would be

0:24:020:24:07

ahead on our economy and the

communities we represent. How can we

0:24:070:24:12

vote Forestieri the? How can you do

that to the voters, the People who

0:24:120:24:17

work in the Vauxhall plants in the

Wirral who are frightened they are

0:24:170:24:21

about to lose their jobs. How can

you do that to the People in

0:24:210:24:24

Northern Ireland?

Let me answer you,

please. We have been through the

0:24:240:24:29

courts. There is no problem about

the Good Friday Agreement being

0:24:290:24:32

challenged by this at all. We have

got time, I am happy to discuss it.

0:24:320:24:37

I think there are problems with the

Good Friday Agreement and a customs

0:24:370:24:41

union.

No, it will remain. If we

have time, I would love to discuss

0:24:410:24:46

that with you. About austerity, can

I answer that? We are net

0:24:460:24:53

contributor. We will have money to

be brought back. While some people

0:24:530:24:55

have signed the order leaders even

there, when you look at the

0:24:550:25:02

parliamentary arithmetic, Mrs May

almost hollowed out our vote in the

0:25:020:25:10

seats were only kept by a handful of

votes. These are seats which voted

0:25:100:25:14

very clearly to leave. That is the

act of faith. I know there are

0:25:140:25:19

problems about how do you give the

electorate the sovereignty to decide

0:25:190:25:22

an issue and then bring it back into

a representative parliamentary

0:25:220:25:26

system, but the vote was cleared to

leave. The bill is about leaving and

0:25:260:25:34

whether we support that or not and

if we do not support that, I think

0:25:340:25:37

Labour voters will draw their own

messages in the North.

Please do not

0:25:370:25:40

drive Boris's bars for the People of

those communities. You're saying

0:25:400:25:44

that somehow we will get money back.

All the evidence shows is that any

0:25:440:25:48

money you get back will be dwarfed

by what we will lose. You're talking

0:25:480:25:54

about £1 billion coming back.

THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

0:25:540:26:01

You can talk across me all you like,

the numbers are there in the

0:26:010:26:05

government's on analysis. That is

what we have to front up to the

0:26:050:26:09

communities we represent.

Are you

going to write on the People's

0:26:090:26:15

decision to leave?

You're coming out

with all these things, we will stay

0:26:150:26:20

in a customs union, we will stay in

a single market, the decision was

0:26:200:26:24

quite clear to leave. In the north,

Labour voters voted very, very

0:26:240:26:31

clearly. You going to rat on them or

not? Never mind about buses and all

0:26:310:26:38

the rest of it.

It does matter. Let her answer. It

0:26:380:26:41

is about the evidence that we now

have. Democracy did not stop the day

0:26:410:26:45

after the referendum.

People have a

right to see the detail.

Of course

0:26:450:26:49

they do. Do you accept that the

government figures show clearly that

0:26:490:26:53

if we stay in the European economic

arrangement, which is out of the EU,

0:26:530:26:58

we are still going to take a 16 pelt

-- a £16 billion hit on our economy?

0:26:580:27:03

That worse anything you get back.

This letter is not just signed from

0:27:030:27:07

people across the country but people

across the trade union movement

0:27:070:27:11

because they because they know the

0:27:110:27:17

hard Brexit the government is

pushing for and why it matters

0:27:240:27:26

Jeremy Corbyn is fighting for the

customs union and single market

0:27:260:27:29

membership.

It means jobs and wages.

What we should be fighting forest

0:27:290:27:31

sector agreements with the European

Union. We want a free-trade area.

0:27:310:27:33

They have always opposed the

activities of the city. There is no

0:27:330:27:36

need to worry about the city. There

is a need to worry about

0:27:360:27:38

manufacturing and we will make

special arrangements with them. The

0:27:380:27:41

issue is clear, do we disguise the

fact by pretending we're going to

0:27:410:27:45

have a customs union or some other

arrangement which counters what the

0:27:450:27:51

clear declaration of northern Labour

voters actually said?

They have

0:27:510:27:56

changed their side. A third of

Labour voters did vote for leave.

0:27:560:28:00

You risk them abandoning the party.

This is not about rerunning the

0:28:000:28:04

referendum. It is about what kind of

deal do we get and is it in the best

0:28:040:28:09

interests of Britain. I believe

voters across this country have the

0:28:090:28:12

right to know what is likely to

happen.

0:28:120:28:14

THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

Of course they have a right.

A right

0:28:140:28:23

to every bit of information going.

The key thing, we have had a

0:28:230:28:29

referendum and we rarely use

referendums for this reason, they

0:28:290:28:32

are difficult to implement. The

referendum decision was clear and

0:28:320:28:35

particularly clear in the North from

Labour voters. I want to keep faith

0:28:350:28:40

with them. I voted to come out. I

know it is harder for people who

0:28:400:28:43

voted to stay in. Are we going to

dress up a retreat, Agassi?

Then

0:28:430:28:51

there is a complicated decision for

you to make. We've been talking

0:28:510:28:54

about the amendment put forward by

Anna Soubry and others, an amendment

0:28:540:28:57

to the trade bill that will be voted

on in a few time. There is a

0:28:570:29:02

potential to defeat the government

is Jeremy Corbyn comes out in favour

0:29:020:29:05

of a customs union and whips his MPs

to vote that way. If you had the

0:29:050:29:10

opportunity to win a vote against

the government and bring down

0:29:100:29:13

Theresa May, would you vote with her

to keep her in office or against?

0:29:130:29:20

That is not the choice and you know

that. That will be the choice on the

0:29:200:29:23

day. We will have a decision, do we

continue to implement the referendum

0:29:230:29:25

decision. I shall be voting for

that.

Even if that is voting to prop

0:29:250:29:32

up the government?

It is not about

propping up the government it is

0:29:320:29:35

about implementing a decision of the

People. The government has a

0:29:350:29:40

majority on this. The idea that Anna

Soubry is going to lead all these

0:29:400:29:43

people into the labour lobbies is

just fairy tales. But we will see on

0:29:430:29:48

the night. The government will win

comfortably and double figures on

0:29:480:29:51

this issue.

Frank Field, Stella

Creasy, we will have to leave it

0:29:510:29:55

there. Thank you very much.

0:29:550:29:58

The local elections in May will see

many seats in the big metropolitan

0:29:580:30:01

councils in England up for grabs,

and the Conservatives may need

0:30:010:30:04

to brace for a difficult night.

0:30:040:30:06

A YouGov poll predicts

Labour could seize several

0:30:060:30:07

Conservative councils in London,

including one the Tories

0:30:070:30:09

have never lost before.

0:30:090:30:10

Emma Vardy looks ahead.

0:30:100:30:14

Not since the swinging '60s has

anyone done better in local

0:30:140:30:18

elections than Labour

could be about to.

0:30:180:30:21

A recent YouGov poll is predicting

Labour will sweep London

0:30:210:30:24

with the best results for any

party since 1968.

0:30:240:30:32

One of the most enduring Tory

strongholds is here.

0:30:340:30:38

To this day, Westminster,

with its largely affluent

0:30:380:30:41

population of voters,

has never had a Labour-run

0:30:410:30:44

authority, but if the poll is to be

believed, that could now change.

0:30:440:30:50

This council has been

Conservative-controlled ever

0:30:500:30:54

since the borough was created

in the 1960s.

0:30:540:30:58

But if the swing was big enough

to turn this council red,

0:30:580:31:02

that would top off a very good

night for Labour.

0:31:020:31:04

The Conservatives are at position

where they could potentially

0:31:040:31:07

be left with just one,

maybe two councils in all of London.

0:31:070:31:12

I think that would be a bad night

for the Conservatives,

0:31:120:31:15

but it is possible.

0:31:150:31:18

They are having to fight to hang

on almost everywhere

0:31:180:31:22

they still have representation.

0:31:220:31:23

But away from London,

it could be a different story.

0:31:230:31:26

Birmingham City Council has been

controlled by Labour since 2012.

0:31:260:31:31

They hold around two-thirds

of the seats here, but there

0:31:310:31:35

is anger over a bin dispute that

lasted for months and left tons

0:31:350:31:39

of rubbish on the streets

uncollected, and resentment over

0:31:390:31:41

budget cuts that are

affecting local services.

0:31:410:31:45

It does not matter who is in because

there is nothing between them,

0:31:450:31:48

that is the problem,

because Birmingham is basically

0:31:480:31:51

screwed by central government,

who have reduced all of our grants.

0:31:510:31:54

There has been a lot of problems

with the bin collections.

0:31:540:31:57

Yes, there have.

0:31:570:31:58

Oh, yes.

0:31:580:31:59

The Labour run council

got the blame for that?

0:31:590:32:01

Yes, I would say so.

0:32:010:32:03

The more it dragged

on, certainly, yes.

0:32:030:32:05

This will be the first all-out

election for Birmingham City Council

0:32:050:32:09

since boundary changes,

so there are 101 seats

0:32:090:32:12

here all up for grabs.

0:32:120:32:16

It is a place Labour should do well,

but could the party be

0:32:160:32:19

punished over those bins?

0:32:190:32:20

Back in the summer, of course,

we had the bin strike.

0:32:200:32:23

It was not the city's

greatest moment in time.

0:32:230:32:26

When I became leader of the council,

I pledged we would resolve that

0:32:260:32:29

dispute, which we have now done.

0:32:290:32:30

We, the Labour Party

here in Birmingham, are committed

0:32:300:32:33

to maintaining weekly bin

collections going forward

0:32:330:32:35

for the next four years,

a commitment I've yet to hear

0:32:350:32:38

from either of the

other two parties.

0:32:380:32:42

Here in Birmingham, the council tax

has gone up over 20% in seven years,

0:32:420:32:46

but services have gone down,

and people are seeing rubbish

0:32:460:32:48

left on their streets,

and they feel it is time

0:32:480:32:50

for a change.

0:32:500:32:51

There are plenty of other

places who survive

0:32:510:32:53

on fortnightly bin collections.

0:32:530:32:54

With council budgets

being constrained, is that

0:32:540:32:56

not a sensible option?

0:32:560:32:59

In Birmingham, we are absolutely

clear that weekly bin

0:32:590:33:01

collections need to remain.

0:33:010:33:02

Meanwhile, the Liberal Democrats

and the Greens remain much

0:33:020:33:08

stronger in local government

than they are in Parliament,

0:33:080:33:10

and in May, they will be

fighting to increase

0:33:100:33:12

their local authority presence.

0:33:120:33:15

While Ukip are likely to continue

to struggle to reverse

0:33:150:33:19

the party's decline.

0:33:190:33:22

But if the story of the night

is the biggest Labour

0:33:220:33:24

success since the '60s,

any high-profile defeats in Tory

0:33:240:33:26

strongholds could start to make some

Conservative MPs worry

0:33:260:33:30

about their constituencies ahead

of the next general election.

0:33:300:33:34

Steve, Kate and Iain

are still with me.

0:33:340:33:38

Let's pick up on the local

elections. Kate, should Theresa May

0:33:380:33:43

be deeply worried about this, what

she expected a bad night and what

0:33:430:33:48

might the consequences be?

No doubt

she will be worried but my favourite

0:33:480:33:52

thing is Everything is underlined by

the fact people care more about

0:33:520:33:55

things than other things that is

what politics comes down to, at the

0:33:550:33:58

end of the day. I think Theresa May

will be worried. -- it comes down

0:33:580:34:02

bins. It is a battle ground for

those parties. Places like Haringey,

0:34:020:34:09

if you see what has happened to

Labour in those areas, and how

0:34:090:34:13

powerful momentum and the left have

become in local politics, you see

0:34:130:34:16

how much it matters to Labour. I

think the Tories will be worried,

0:34:160:34:21

particularly about London. As the BT

said, Labour expect to do quite well

0:34:210:34:25

and that is not going to look very

good. Brandon Lewis, the new

0:34:250:34:29

chairman of the party, said last

week we expect big losses in London.

0:34:290:34:34

He is setting that already. I think

the Tory party is worried. In areas

0:34:340:34:37

like Birmingham and other areas

around the country, Brexit is likely

0:34:370:34:41

to be important and I think that's

why it comes back to labour being

0:34:410:34:44

modelled on Brexit. People vote with

their feet. If the Tories can win

0:34:440:34:48

back some seats like burning in

other places, it might not be a

0:34:480:34:51

massive all-out loss lost them on

the night.

Expectation management

0:34:510:34:56

already being Manoj

0:34:560:35:02

already being Manoj -- being

managed. Actual voters telling us

0:35:020:35:04

what they think. Did they have

consequences that Parliamentary

0:35:040:35:07

politics?

They could do this time.

It reminds me, Steve will remember

0:35:070:35:13

this, 1990 when the Tories did

disastrously in local elections.

0:35:130:35:17

Kenneth Baker went out on the

streets and exempted we kept once

0:35:170:35:25

loved. I don't think that will

happen this time. Kate is right,

0:35:250:35:29

Brandon Lewis, the Tory party

chairman has already started to

0:35:290:35:33

manage expectations. He generally

believe they are in for a drubbing,

0:35:330:35:39

particularly in London. These will

last up for grabs in 2014 when Ukip

0:35:390:35:45

are doing well. In the last year,

Ukip's vote has virtually

0:35:450:35:49

disappeared. So all three other

parties, their votes have gone up in

0:35:490:35:52

by-elections. It depends where that

vote goes, Wilbur Liberal Democrats

0:35:520:35:56

be able to hold onto the seats they

won in that year? -- Wilbur Liberal

0:35:560:36:02

Democrats be able to hold onto the

six? I think it will be a drumming

0:36:020:36:06

but I think it will be patchy. Andy

Street has been reasonably popular

0:36:060:36:13

in the West Midlands. If they do

that they will have a 1990 situation

0:36:130:36:17

and that is all they will talk

about.

Even if they lose

0:36:170:36:20

Westminster?

Probably.

0:36:200:36:26

will be confirmed. Theresa May has

been in a fragile position since the

0:36:520:36:54

general election and that will be

confirmed. But by that point Brexit

0:36:540:36:58

will be reaching or coming close to

one of its several climactic son I

0:36:580:37:02

think that will shape the national

picture. The local elections will be

0:37:020:37:07

really important for local

government, who inherit the

0:37:070:37:11

nightmarish budget. It won't change

the national picture very much.

Iain

0:37:110:37:16

said Ukip's vote has been falling

and they have had their troubles

0:37:160:37:21

recently as well. Important to see

where their vote goes and confirms

0:37:210:37:25

we are moving back to two party

politics maybe?

I think it does

0:37:250:37:31

nationally but locally it's a

different picture because the Ukip

0:37:310:37:32

vote tends to go on all kinds of

directions. It doesn't necessarily

0:37:320:37:36

go where you think it will. So the

Liberal Democrats and the Greens do

0:37:360:37:41

quite well at local elections,

whereas nationally they don't do

0:37:410:37:43

very well at all. I think sometimes

you do see people who would vote for

0:37:430:37:48

any other party going for any other

party and not necessarily the Tories

0:37:480:37:51

and Labour. I think it comes down to

how much this comes down to Brexit.

0:37:510:37:58

Do people care more about Brexit or

bins question mark in areas like

0:37:580:38:01

London, I think Brexit and bigger

national issues will have a bearing.

0:38:010:38:06

Brexit one way or another will help

with your bins?

London has become a

0:38:060:38:13

Labour city. Huge capital city with

millions and millions has become a

0:38:130:38:19

Labour stronghold. That is

significant for all kinds of

0:38:190:38:22

reasons. It has also become as

strong as it used to be in Scotland.

0:38:220:38:28

Even in 2010 in the general

election, London voted Labour by a

0:38:280:38:33

wide margin. That is quite a

significant development.

We need to

0:38:330:38:36

leave it there just now, coming back

to you later in the programme.

0:38:360:38:40

It's coming up to 11.40,

you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:38:400:38:43

Still to come...

0:38:430:38:49

Good morning and welcome

to Sunday Politics Scotland.

0:38:490:38:52

Coming up on the programme...

0:38:520:38:53

University lecturers strike over

threats to their pensions.

0:38:530:38:55

As more walk-outs loom,

I'll be speaking to Scotland's

0:38:550:38:58

Higher Education Minister.

0:38:580:39:03

A Chief Constable says

Police Scotland prevented

0:39:030:39:04

him from carrying out

a full-scale investigation.

0:39:040:39:09

I think there was a lack of openness

in certain parts of the organisation

0:39:090:39:15

and remains so.

0:39:150:39:20

and remain so.

0:39:200:39:20

And Scotland's role in Brexit -

after another round of talks is it

0:39:200:39:23

time the PM and the FM got involved?

0:39:230:39:27

University lecturers have begun

a 14-day walk-out in a row

0:39:270:39:30

over their pensions.

0:39:300:39:32

It's another illustration

of the financial pressures

0:39:320:39:33

on higher education,

coming in the same week

0:39:330:39:35

the Prime Minister launched

a year-long review of tuition fees

0:39:350:39:38

and university funding in England.

0:39:380:39:39

Here in Scotland, of course,

opposition to tuition fees

0:39:390:39:41

has become something

of an article of faith.

0:39:410:39:49

The reality, however,

is complicated,

0:39:510:39:52

with critics suggesting the current

policy has failed to substantially

0:39:520:39:54

increase the number of students

from disadvantaged backgrounds.

0:39:540:39:56

In a moment I'll be speaking

to the minister responsible

0:39:560:39:59

for higher education,

but first here's Graham Stewart.

0:39:590:40:02

This is an official UCU picket line.

We are asking people not to cross.

0:40:020:40:07

They came out to protect their

pensions, not just for themselves,

0:40:070:40:11

they insist, but to ensure the

profession continues to attract the

0:40:110:40:15

best talent and students get the

highest quality education.

The

0:40:150:40:20

employers are pushing through really

Draconian changes to the pension

0:40:200:40:24

scheme, which take guaranteed

pension benefits in retirement away

0:40:240:40:26

from them, and leave their pension

and retirement to the whims of the

0:40:260:40:31

market. It could mean a lecturer

could

0:40:310:40:39

could lose up to £10,000 a year once

they have retired.

Universities UK

0:40:390:40:42

which represents the employers call

the action disappointing. They say

0:40:420:40:44

the pension scheme has a deficit of

£6 billion, and change is essential.

0:40:440:40:48

The union says this 14 day walk-out

will affect 145,000 students. There

0:40:480:40:54

is plenty of support among the

lecturers, but what do the students

0:40:540:40:57

think?

0:40:570:41:03

think?

The University of Glasgow is

one of Scotland's throw-mac ancient

0:41:030:41:09

universities...

I am a first-year

veterinary student. It is their

0:41:090:41:13

well-being, their pension fund, from

what I understand, and if they feel

0:41:130:41:16

they are being wronged I support

them in that.

I am studying teaching

0:41:160:41:21

at the University of Glasgow. It is

quite irritating but we understand

0:41:210:41:24

that they need to be paid well and

supported.

I studied biomedical

0:41:240:41:31

engineering. I don't really agree

with it, to be honest. I've liked

0:41:310:41:35

everyone should be affected by the

recession and the austerity that is

0:41:350:41:39

happening. People at uni should not

be excluded from that.

Unlike their

0:41:390:41:45

counterparts in England Scottish

students will not be looking for

0:41:450:41:46

refunds on their tuition fees in

this dispute, because students here

0:41:460:41:51

haven't paid them since the Labour

and Lib Dem coalition scrap them in

0:41:510:41:56

2002, replacing the system with the

graduate endowment. Then, in 2008,

0:41:560:42:01

the SNP finally abolished the

graduate endowment essentially

0:42:010:42:10

making tuition free. The former

First Minister even had his

0:42:140:42:16

opposition to these immortalised in

storm, though Herriot Watt

0:42:160:42:17

University seems strangely bashful

about it, refusing us permission to

0:42:170:42:19

film this weekend. They are not the

only ones to find the issue of

0:42:190:42:22

student debt can prove

controversial.

How different is the

0:42:220:42:27

debate in Scotland?

Totally

different because what he is coming

0:42:270:42:30

up against is the reality that

students are leaving university in

0:42:300:42:33

England with a massive debt burden,

facing huge house prices and

0:42:330:42:38

stagnant wages under the Tories. In

Scotland we don't have university

0:42:380:42:41

tuition fees so students are not

facing a challenge. Students leave

0:42:410:42:45

university with their degree without

a huge debt...

That,, alleging

0:42:450:42:52

Scottish students leave without huge

debts, was judged by the journalism

0:42:520:42:54

website the Ferret to be mostly

false. On the basis that students

0:42:540:42:58

will for still have to mostly cover

their own living expenses. She says

0:42:580:43:04

the article claimed she was a liar

and was therefore defamatory. The

0:43:040:43:08

average at a debt owed by graduates

from the class of 2017 is £11,740,

0:43:080:43:14

significantly lower than other parts

of the UK, but even that is not

0:43:140:43:18

necessarily the full picture.

The

repayment system is matter as well

0:43:180:43:21

so we know a lot of the debt in

England will never be repaid. In

0:43:210:43:26

Scotland, because it is law to start

with, and because we collect debt in

0:43:260:43:30

a different way, so we get more out

of people's earnings were quickly,

0:43:300:43:33

it is much more likely if you have a

£25,000 debt in Scotland you will

0:43:330:43:37

pay off the whole thing, that if you

have a £50,000 debt in England.

That

0:43:370:43:42

debt could be more likely to the

shoulders of shoulders of some of

0:43:420:43:46

the poorest students.

What the SNP

have done is to slash the amount

0:43:460:43:50

available for grants and bursaries

by about 35% and that money

0:43:500:43:53

previously went to students from

low-income backgrounds. Now as a

0:43:530:43:58

consequence of that decision and

others made by the Scottish

0:43:580:44:01

Government these students now we've

university significantly more

0:44:010:44:04

in-depth than their more affluent

contemporaries.

A recent report for

0:44:040:44:10

the Scottish Government recommended

all students receive an income of

0:44:100:44:13

just over £8,000 per year. The

Government is still to it's

0:44:130:44:16

considered response.

Goodbye for me.

Goodbye.

0:44:160:44:24

Well, with me now is

the Scottish Government's

0:44:240:44:26

Higher Education Minister,

Shirley-Anne Somerville.

0:44:260:44:28

We will talk about universities in a

moment, but first, Brexit. There is

0:44:280:44:34

an article by David Lidington, in

effect Theresa May's deputy, in the

0:44:340:44:41

Telegraph today. Basically he

accuses the Scottish Government of

0:44:410:44:45

putting Britain in a situation where

it "Could be struggling to make its

0:44:450:44:51

way in a new world outside the EU

because of its insistence on having

0:44:510:44:54

everything from Europe devolved." As

a representative of the Scottish

0:44:540:45:01

Government, what is your response?

The Scottish Government is not

0:45:010:45:04

against common agreement in

principle but they do have to be in

0:45:040:45:08

Scotland's interests, so this is an

issue about power is being

0:45:080:45:13

repatriated from Europe back to the

Scottish Parliament, coming to the

0:45:130:45:16

Scottish Parliament and not getting

stuck in Westminster. Surely, it

0:45:160:45:19

should be the right thing to do to

bring those powers to the Scottish

0:45:190:45:23

Parliament, to let the Parliament

decide what is right for Scotland

0:45:230:45:26

and what...

His argument is if you

bring back powers to Scotland on

0:45:260:45:31

things like, all the things I have

mentioned, regulations on bleach and

0:45:310:45:36

paints, or on standards, that when

Britain is negotiating trade

0:45:360:45:41

agreements with third-party

countries, unless there is a single

0:45:410:45:44

UK market, unless it is known to

those third parties, it could stop

0:45:440:45:48

these trade agreements going ahead.

That is the point he is making.

The

0:45:480:45:52

Scottish Government and Scottish

Parliament will not stand in the way

0:45:520:45:55

of a common-sense approach. As I

said right at the beginning we are

0:45:550:45:58

not against common agreement in

principle, but by any other

0:45:580:46:02

standards this is about a power grab

from Westminster. We are asking for

0:46:020:46:07

the powers being repaid created from

Europe to come to the Scottish

0:46:070:46:10

Parliament, and this is not an issue

for one party but it is an issue for

0:46:100:46:15

the parliament and there has been

cross-party agreement that they

0:46:150:46:18

should be looked at very carefully

-- the powers being repatriated from

0:46:180:46:24

Europe.

Is it your view that if

these common frameworks are put into

0:46:240:46:29

place they should be approved by the

Scottish Parliament? They shouldn't

0:46:290:46:33

just be negotiated between

Government ministers? They should

0:46:330:46:37

act to be approved by the Scottish

Parliament.

We are looking at a

0:46:370:46:41

number of powers coming back from

Europe, they should come back to the

0:46:410:46:44

Scottish Parliament for the Scottish

Parliament to decide what is right

0:46:440:46:47

for Scotland. I don't think that is

too much to ask.

Sure, but the

0:46:470:46:51

crucial point is if this argument on

common frameworks, you would like

0:46:510:46:56

them to be approved by the Scottish

Parliament rather than just either

0:46:560:47:00

unilaterally decided by Westminster

or just dawned with backroom

0:47:000:47:04

negotiations.

I don't think we want

to see backroom negotiations or

0:47:040:47:09

anything decided simply by

Westminster. There are many powers

0:47:090:47:11

that will be coming back to

Scotland, that should be coming back

0:47:110:47:15

to Scotland. The important thing is

the Scottish Parliament has an

0:47:150:47:19

understanding about what powers the

going to get back. We hear lots of

0:47:190:47:23

kind words, you know, from

Westminster sometimes. They have

0:47:230:47:27

obviously now decided to play a

heavy hand but we are not seeing any

0:47:270:47:30

detail about how this will impact on

the powers that should be coming

0:47:300:47:33

back to Scotland and until we see

that it is a game of smoke and

0:47:330:47:37

mirrors, unfortunately, from

Westminster. It back to university

0:47:370:47:41

strike. Graham said in the film that

Scottish tunes won't be demanding

0:47:410:47:46

compensation because they don't pay

tuition fees but there are

0:47:460:47:49

international students in

0:47:490:47:56

international students in Scotland

-- brake-mac onto the university

0:47:570:47:59

straight. There are international

students who want to be compensated.

0:47:590:48:01

People outside the EU are paying

£60,000 a year plus two study in

0:48:010:48:03

Scotland, and they see the lecturers

are to be on strike -- paying

0:48:030:48:06

£16,000 per year plus to study. They

say that money is helping fund the

0:48:060:48:12

no tuition fees policies, so is

there a case for their compensation?

0:48:120:48:15

Delight it is very disappointing to

see we have got to the point where

0:48:150:48:18

you see you have come out on strike

--

yes, it is very disappointing to

0:48:180:48:23

see that we have got to the point.

Where the UCU have come out on

0:48:230:48:27

strike. This is not in the best

interests of our universities are

0:48:270:48:34

the lecturers, and most particularly

the students, so I would want to see

0:48:340:48:37

them getting back round the table

for meaningful negotiations next

0:48:370:48:40

week.

What about the issue of

compensation? To the students have a

0:48:400:48:43

case?

This is something very

different in Scotland, as you have

0:48:430:48:47

said. Our student stored page

version fees. We have our two days

0:48:470:48:52

of strikes, both sides look to go

round the table next week although

0:48:520:48:55

it is with some preconditions,

unfortunately, from the University

0:48:550:48:59

side. Let's see what comes from

that.

OK, but even if something

0:48:590:49:03

comes from that some of the students

will say, hang on, there have

0:49:030:49:07

already been strikes and we should

be compensated.

I appreciate some

0:49:070:49:11

students will be frustrated from

that but we are seeing talks next

0:49:110:49:14

week.

The talks will not be on

compensation but on the substance of

0:49:140:49:18

the issues in the dispute. The

students are saying, hang on, quite

0:49:180:49:21

apart from the nature of the dispute

which is essentially about pensions,

0:49:210:49:25

good luck to them, but we have

already lost time, and we have paid

0:49:250:49:31

for the time we have lost, and we

should be compensated.

There is some

0:49:310:49:34

debate about whether there will be

on the substantive issue of the

0:49:340:49:39

pensions next week and that is why I

am calling for meaningful or but

0:49:390:49:42

certainly I will be asking to speak

to the principles and to the

0:49:420:49:45

University Scotland next week. The

breakdown further because we do need

0:49:450:49:48

to discuss very seriously the impact

it has had on students.

So you might

0:49:480:49:53

consider competition?

I will speak

to the rest is next week to raise my

0:49:530:49:56

concern about what has been

happening with students. We have a

0:49:560:49:59

different situation in Scotland,

only affecting of course

0:49:590:50:07

only affecting of course some of

universities, not all.

What would

0:50:080:50:09

you say to an international student

who says, hang on a minute, you and

0:50:090:50:12

your Government encouraged me to

come here, and now you won't even

0:50:120:50:14

say who will discuss the issue of

compensation? -- you would even say

0:50:140:50:19

that you will. It

I don't think it

is helpful for Government ministers

0:50:190:50:22

to come on at the weekend before the

talks and to raise the stakes still

0:50:220:50:26

further. I have met with the unions,

I will meet with the principles, if

0:50:260:50:32

required, if. Next week breakdown,

and let's try to do this in an

0:50:320:50:36

meaningful fashion to encourage them

to get the resolution.

0:50:360:50:43

Do you back the strikers? There are

concerns from the UC you the trade

0:50:430:50:50

union about what is happening to

their pensions. It is for the

0:50:500:50:54

universities to go through in

detail. I think it is concerning

0:50:540:51:00

that the trade union saying that

there isn't a pension deficit. The

0:51:000:51:06

universities are saying there is a

deficit. If we have a disagreement

0:51:060:51:09

about the figures on a UK level, we

need to...

0:51:090:51:18

need to... Is there an actual

pension deficit there. If there is

0:51:180:51:21

no pension deficit then it is very

hard for universities to say it

0:51:210:51:25

changes need to be made.

If you cut

their wages and conditions, it

0:51:250:51:34

undermines the abilities. That has

been echoed by Jeremy Corbyn. They

0:51:340:51:41

are backing the strike but you are

not.

I met with the unions last week

0:51:410:51:45

and they described a very

constructive meeting. We have very

0:51:450:51:50

good relationships with the main

trade union in Scotland. We have

0:51:500:51:54

said that the discussions with

myself and the government have been

0:51:540:51:58

constructive and we will encourage

that to continue.

You have said that

0:51:580:52:04

students from European Union

countries who start their

0:52:040:52:11

countries who start their courses in

2019 will not pay fees. Is that just

0:52:120:52:16

for that year will continue.

That

will continue for the duration of

0:52:160:52:20

their course.

What if a student

starting 2020?

We will take that

0:52:200:52:28

decision at a future date. We have

taken the decision around the

0:52:280:52:31

students for the year 2019 earlier

than anywhere else in the UK in an

0:52:310:52:38

attempt to give them some assurance.

That is in time for the

0:52:380:52:42

universities.

But you don't know

about after that?

We don't know a

0:52:420:52:49

lot about what is happening in

Brexit, to be frank. We don't know

0:52:490:52:52

if the students will actually have

the right to remain in an

0:52:520:52:58

immigration status. We're trying to

encourage EU students to come. It is

0:52:580:53:06

very difficult to continue to make

policies.

A lot of people in

0:53:060:53:10

Scotland would say this is unfair.

We are leaving the European Union.

0:53:100:53:14

Why should EU students be able to

come here and have no tuition fees?

0:53:140:53:22

Students from England start on 9000

a year. We charge students from

0:53:220:53:30

third-party countries something like

16,000 a year. You could almost

0:53:300:53:36

have... You could invest that money

in Scottish universities.

We are

0:53:360:53:46

looking -- working with

universities. I will tell you why it

0:53:460:53:51

is the right decision to make for

the university students that will

0:53:510:53:54

hopefully come in a couple of years'

time. One of the aspects of Scottish

0:53:540:53:59

education that makes it the best in

the world is a diverse campus that

0:53:590:54:05

we have. We want to encourage people

to come from Europe and further

0:54:050:54:09

afield to work, study and live after

that.

But not from England China

0:54:090:54:14

would seem?

It is a very important

part to our commitment to the EU. It

0:54:140:54:20

is required by DUP legislation.

Which is why there is a difference.

0:54:200:54:27

There will be a transition period in

2019. It is very difficult to make

0:54:270:54:33

policies on Brexit because of the

uncertainty that is coming from the

0:54:330:54:36

UK. We will be in a transition

period for two years. If that

0:54:360:54:45

transition requires us to have some

of the same in areas that we want to

0:54:450:54:49

see, around Freeman City freedom of

movement. We want to do this because

0:54:490:54:56

it is the right thing to do to

encourage students to come here.

And

0:54:560:55:00

you very much indeed. Two weeks ago

we were examining the resignation of

0:55:000:55:08

Phil Bromley as Chief Constable of

the Scotland.

0:55:080:55:14

A few days ago, the force

was in the spotlight again

0:55:190:55:21

following a series of stinging

remarks about its "culture

0:55:210:55:24

of secrecy" and "ineptitude"

by the chief Constable of Durham,

0:55:240:55:26

Michael Barton.

0:55:260:55:27

He'd been called in after several

officers investigating leaked

0:55:270:55:29

information about the Emma Caldwell

murder inquiry were found

0:55:290:55:31

to have obtained data

without judicial permission.

0:55:310:55:33

But he told Holyrood's

justice sub-committee that

0:55:330:55:37

what he understood to be a full

investigation was downgraded

0:55:370:55:40

to an inquiry meaning he had only

restricted access to documents

0:55:400:55:43

and was unable to interview

people under caution.

0:55:430:55:44

Michael Barton joins me now.

0:55:440:55:45

Good morning. You clearly thought

there was a culture of secrecy in

0:55:450:55:54

and around the Scotland. Did you

mean by that?

Please remember that I

0:55:540:55:59

was asked by Phil Gormley to come in

and do an independent investigation

0:55:590:56:05

and that is what they'll and I

thought was the deal. When I

0:56:050:56:09

actually got into the bones of this

and started working with the legal

0:56:090:56:13

department and the professional

standards department in police

0:56:130:56:16

Scotland, they took a slightly

different view. Firstly, they

0:56:160:56:20

thought that I should just be doing

an inquiry and in police Scotland

0:56:200:56:26

that means I can interview the

officers concerned. Which of course

0:56:260:56:31

is severely hampers my dealings with

those people, because if they are in

0:56:310:56:36

jeopardy I wouldn't want to speak to

them. The second thing is that in

0:56:360:56:43

the legal department, they took a

bizarre interpretation of the rules

0:56:430:56:47

in my view. They described some

conversations between senior

0:56:470:56:55

officers as legally privileged, when

there wasn't even a legal

0:56:550:56:58

professional in the room. Thirdly,

professional standards didn't want

0:56:580:57:01

to give me the address of retired

police officers because they said it

0:57:010:57:06

was vetted by the Data Protection

Act. I was a title that amused about

0:57:060:57:11

how I was going to go and see them.

You think it was an attitude? --

0:57:110:57:26

ineptitude.

I am not accusing the

Scotland of ineptitude. They do

0:57:260:57:33

fantastic work. 99.9% of the people

in the Scotland should be patted on

0:57:330:57:38

the back and applauded by their

local communities. What I talked

0:57:380:57:42

about in terms of ineptitude... This

is the other issue will stop I

0:57:420:57:48

talked about putting people in a

sack and shaking them up. I meant

0:57:480:57:54

that professional standards for

legal people in police Scotland need

0:57:540:57:57

to get their act together. Equally,

everybody else who is involved in

0:57:570:58:03

the way that investigations are

conducted north of the border league

0:58:030:58:06

to get together. Because the

regulations themselves are really

0:58:060:58:10

straightforward. For me, I had to be

a higher rank, with the right

0:58:100:58:17

experience and impartial and then I

could do an investigation. Police

0:58:170:58:22

Scotland interpreted that, as soon

as I started asking questions in the

0:58:220:58:28

inquiry phase, I could no longer be

impartial in the investigation

0:58:280:58:32

phase, which is preposterous. I do

understand why police Scotland

0:58:320:58:37

professional standards are a little

bit risk averse here because I think

0:58:370:58:42

they are facing six judicial reviews

from the Federation, so what

0:58:420:58:51

Northumberland police found was that

whenever it please officer is being

0:58:510:59:00

investigated north of the border,

there is a good chance they will

0:59:000:59:04

counter... What has happened is a

culture of people being like this.

0:59:040:59:12

What we should be doing is looking

at these things impartially, finding

0:59:120:59:17

out what lessons need to be learned,

if somebody needs a sack on the

0:59:170:59:21

wrist, sock them on the rest. At the

moment the public are utterly

0:59:210:59:27

perplexed.

I am curious. You said

you were bought in the late Mark

0:59:270:59:37

brought in by Phil Gormley. He has

now left. There were various

0:59:370:59:42

allegations against him. None of

them have been proven. The way the

0:59:420:59:46

rules work is that those

investigations will never come to a

0:59:460:59:53

conclusion. There have been two

chief constables who have left.

0:59:531:00:02

chief constables who have left. Wind

you look at the state of the

1:00:021:00:05

Scotland and the fact that these

people have had to go, as a senior

1:00:051:00:10

police officer in England, would it

make you hesitate about applying for

1:00:101:00:15

a job here?

I am not going to be

applying for a job.

But in general

1:00:151:00:22

terms, do you think that is a risk

that police officers in England

1:00:221:00:27

think it will be a bit of a mess?

I

think that is a legitimate concern,

1:00:271:00:35

but that is not my main concern. My

main concern is that, because people

1:00:351:00:42

are taking an overly legal approach

to these things, these matters take

1:00:421:00:47

years. The matter I was looking at

started as a very simple situation

1:00:471:00:53

in June...

Your item meant is that

it could have been sorted out

1:00:531:00:58

quickly.

That was my evidence to

Parliament. I would have attempted

1:00:581:01:03

to resolve it in June 2015. With a

fair wind, I would have resolved

1:01:031:01:09

this by the middle of July. For

people in jeopardy would have been

1:01:091:01:14

brought in, I would have personally

apologised and offered recompense

1:01:141:01:19

and we would have moved on.

Forget

the inquiry. Your general

1:01:191:01:26

impressions? It is obviously very

controversial. The equivalent for

1:01:261:01:33

you is that you had to merge with

Northumbria and Manchester, every

1:01:331:01:41

police force in the North of

England. Would you be comfortable

1:01:411:01:43

with that do you think it is

better...? Durham is a reasonably

1:01:431:01:49

small force.

We are the 32nd biggest

force in England. The experience we

1:01:491:02:02

have of creating a national police

force is unique in the UK and I just

1:02:021:02:07

think that it has been really tough

for people in Scotland. I'm in touch

1:02:071:02:13

with police officers and there is no

doubt that front line cops from the

1:02:131:02:23

eight constituent forces and is

happy about working properly

1:02:231:02:27

Scotland. I actually understand the

argument for economies of scale. My

1:02:271:02:33

personal opinion is that policing is

very local. I think it should be a

1:02:331:02:40

partnership with locals and local

people should be really confident

1:02:401:02:45

that they understand who they

achieved Constable is and they have

1:02:451:02:50

got that relationship. If I were

Chief Constable of the North of

1:02:501:02:53

England, it would be jolly difficult

for me to do my job.

Thank you very

1:02:531:02:59

much for joining us. There is still

no agreement over Brexit.

1:02:591:03:07

There's still no agreement over

Brexit between the UK

1:03:071:03:09

and Scottish governments,

but both came out of the latest

1:03:091:03:11

round of talks saying

progress had been made.

1:03:111:03:13

While Scotland's Brexit Minister

Michael Russell underlined the need

1:03:131:03:15

to give parliament here authority

over powers that'll eventually be

1:03:151:03:18

returned from Brussels,

Scottish Secretary David Mundell

1:03:181:03:19

said he was hopeful

a deal could be reached.

1:03:191:03:22

I'm joined now by SNP MSP

Ash Denham and Scottish

1:03:221:03:24

Conservative MSP Miles Briggs.

1:03:241:03:28

Ash Denham, I am dubious as to what

you made of what David Lidington had

1:03:281:03:33

to say.

Clearly some progress has

been made last week at the... My

1:03:331:03:41

personal view about where we are at

the moment is that the UK Government

1:03:411:03:45

still seems to be sleepwalking

towards a constitutional crisis and

1:03:451:03:49

not enough progress has been made.

They need to come out this morning.

1:03:491:03:55

I have seen some reports saying that

the SNP will potentially damage some

1:03:551:03:59

trade deals going forward. First of

all, that is completely wrong and

1:03:591:04:03

second of all, that is the signs of

a weak government that are trying to

1:04:031:04:07

blow up is smoke screen because they

are unable to come to the table with

1:04:071:04:12

serious proposals to satisfy the

Scottish Government. It is unanimous

1:04:121:04:16

across Parliament. We have a

Scottish committee, unanimous across

1:04:161:04:23

all the parties, saying that the

BLEEP in must be resolved. They need

1:04:231:04:30

to show some leadership. They need

to engage constructively and try to

1:04:301:04:34

solve this impasse.

I...

There are

specific proposals. Cost of living

1:04:341:04:46

would be change. Everything will

come back to Scotland but the

1:04:461:04:49

British woman would ask the Scottish

Government not to change rules in

1:04:491:04:54

certain areas until there were

negotiations. Is that your

1:04:541:04:57

understanding?

Yes. This is where we

are working to find a compromise. It

1:04:571:05:03

is important that we have this

conversation and are able to seek

1:05:031:05:10

and move forward a complex issue. In

terms of David Lidington's comments,

1:05:101:05:16

the UK single market is worth four

times that of the EU one. It is

1:05:161:05:21

vital for Scottish businesses that

we don't have a differentiation

1:05:211:05:24

across the single market.

What is

actually happening? Presumably, the

1:05:241:05:31

argument against what you are

proposing is that it kicks it one

1:05:311:05:36

stage back because the question is,

who decides on which areas the

1:05:361:05:40

Scottish Government would then agree

not to change the rules and who then

1:05:401:05:47

decides on the common framework?

Should it be negotiations or should

1:05:471:05:53

the Scottish Parliament have the

right to vote on what areas are

1:05:531:05:56

common?

Clause 11 will provide that

opportunity. We would like to see

1:05:561:06:04

those powers come back to Holyrood

to strengthening the Scottish

1:06:041:06:10

Parliament. There are cross-border

issues which we don't have agreement

1:06:101:06:13

on yet. Both governments are looking

towards where these powers are going

1:06:131:06:21

to have a common-sense approach. It

is something we should all be

1:06:211:06:24

working towards. Governments and

ministers are working towards that.

1:06:241:06:27

We can move both countries forward.

This idea that the Scottish

1:06:271:06:33

Government will get back powers but

not use them to change things, is

1:06:331:06:37

that unreasonable? The point about

David Linton is that if we start

1:06:371:06:46

changing trade standards on certain

products and Britain is negotiating

1:06:461:06:49

a trade deal, the British government

needs to know that those stab and --

1:06:491:06:58

standards are common.

The Scottish

Government have been clear about

1:06:581:07:05

this right from the start. Whether

businesses seek to have it common

1:07:051:07:10

framework it is agreed with the

Scottish Parliament. It has to be

1:07:101:07:13

agreed. We are saying that at the

moment the level of involvement on

1:07:131:07:20

the Scottish Parliament hasn't been

enough. If you look at examples...

1:07:201:07:28

Miles Briggs said no, they have

agreed to change clause 11.

That is

1:07:291:07:35

not what they are saying. That is

not what they said last week. At the

1:07:351:07:41

moment the proposals that have been

put forward fall far short of that.

1:07:411:07:45

It is still undercutting devolution.

It is still a position where there

1:07:451:07:52

would be vetoes or imposition on top

of another layer above the Scottish

1:07:521:07:59

Parliament. It is undermining

devolution. Things that are

1:07:591:08:04

currently devolved was the

controlled by the Scottish

1:08:041:08:06

Parliament.

We seem to have a

disagreement on the facts. Miles

1:08:061:08:15

Briggs, is what Ash Denham has said,

is that what your understanding is?

1:08:151:08:19

No. The language... We are trying to

work this out to make sure it that

1:08:191:08:33

as the EQ leaves the European union,

we will have an advantage as an

1:08:331:08:40

economy.

Thank you both very much.

1:08:401:08:49

We will have to leave it there.

1:08:491:08:50

It's time to look back

on what's happened this week

1:08:501:08:53

and what's coming up.

1:08:531:08:55

I'm joined now by Hamish McDonald

and Shona Craven. There is a

1:08:551:09:04

disagreement, is in there? Well, I'm

not sure there's a disagreement, but

1:09:041:09:08

clearly some deal has been proposed,

or done. It's just the details. They

1:09:081:09:13

seem to be disagreeing about what

should happen but also on what the

1:09:131:09:18

details actually are?

My impression

is what the UK Government has put on

1:09:181:09:22

the table is that all the powers

will go back to Hollywood but that

1:09:221:09:28

Westminster retains a veto on up to

25 of them -- they will go back to

1:09:281:09:35

Holyrood. And they retained a veto

until that is good place. -- until

1:09:351:09:42

that is put in place. If this works

for England, Ireland, the whole lot,

1:09:421:09:47

it has to be done originating in

London because London is the only

1:09:471:09:50

place that can see properly or the

needs of the UK. The Scottish

1:09:501:09:55

Government has a fair point, in

saying, firstly, this is going over

1:09:551:09:59

devolution because of the

devolutionary powers, but also where

1:09:591:10:01

does that leave the Scottish

Government and the Scottish

1:10:011:10:04

Parliament when it comes to things

like trade deals?

It is a matter of

1:10:041:10:08

trust?

Yes, and I think there is

definitely an argument to be made.

1:10:081:10:12

If you see we are giving the powers

are shifting them to Holyrood but we

1:10:121:10:16

will tell you how to use them, I'm

not quite sure that amounts to

1:10:161:10:19

having a power if you are then

told...

One version was that the

1:10:191:10:24

powers would go to Scotland, but

there would be an agreement that

1:10:241:10:30

they should not be altered, let's

say, an trading standards, until

1:10:301:10:34

what was going to be part of a

common framework was sorted out.

1:10:341:10:40

Yes?

Yes, that is how it seems to

me.

Would it be an agreement? The

1:10:401:10:44

point Ash Denham was making.

Something agreed or something

1:10:441:10:48

decided by Westminster, then the

Scottish Government are told, you

1:10:481:10:50

have to agree with this.

Yes, hang

on, doesn't mean the Scottish

1:10:501:10:55

Parliament has to agree on the

common framework? Does the British

1:10:551:10:58

Parliament have to? How is this

decided?

My feeling is that both

1:10:581:11:03

sides are not terribly far apart.

They have actually come quite a long

1:11:031:11:07

way, and that last little inch is

proving difficult. As you say, it is

1:11:071:11:11

a question of trust. I don't think

the UK Government is going out of

1:11:111:11:15

its way through, you know, say to

the Scottish Government, no, we will

1:11:151:11:19

turn you over on this or that, but

it appears to be the way the

1:11:191:11:21

Scottish Government views it. They

think London will turn them over and

1:11:211:11:24

it is not the case.

But can't you

see why? Given the way they framed

1:11:241:11:32

clause 11 in the first place, which

arguably seemed to ride roughshod

1:11:321:11:36

over the Scottish Government?

Of

course there is a lack of trust but

1:11:361:11:38

I would also look cynically on the

Sunday Telegraph's headline, Brexit,

1:11:381:11:43

trade deals could be ruined by the

SNP. Wouldn't that be convenient, if

1:11:431:11:47

the reason they were there and was

because of the SNP and not because

1:11:471:11:50

the whole Brexit thing is

unworkable, because of Northern

1:11:501:11:54

Ireland etc? Wouldn't it be

convenient if Scotland was the

1:11:541:11:58

problem?

The other big Brexit

1:11:581:12:04

move is Starmer was talking to

Andrew Marr this morning. There have

1:12:101:12:12

been hits, actual on this programme

a few weeks ago, Richard Leonard

1:12:121:12:15

said he would favour a customs union

and that now seems to be Labour

1:12:151:12:17

policy.

In Scotland, what is

happening is Richard Leonard is

1:12:171:12:19

being pushed by elements within the

Scottish Labour Party to take a

1:12:191:12:22

softer approach to Brexit. I think

Richard Leonard is instinctively

1:12:221:12:24

more hostile to a soft Brexit...

But

the significance of what Keir

1:12:241:12:28

Starmer is saying is that the, I

mean, in Westminster, if Labour say

1:12:281:12:34

they want to stay a customs union,

they may well be able to force that

1:12:341:12:40

through parliament?

They may well be

one of the reasons they are doing

1:12:401:12:43

this I think is that they are fed by

not embracing a more Remain approach

1:12:431:12:47

they are losing a lot of those young

voters that they were so pleased to

1:12:471:12:51

get at the last election, who are

desperate to have as closer

1:12:511:12:54

relationship with Europe as they

possibly can.

But it does change the

1:12:541:12:57

arithmetic, doesn't it, Ash? If

Labour comes round to staying in the

1:12:571:13:08

single market -- doesn't it, Shona?

SNP would back him, the Lib Dems,

1:13:081:13:13

certainly, they could well... It

could well be enough to actually

1:13:131:13:17

stop Theresa May in her tracks?

It

could be, a shimmering Theresa May

1:13:171:13:21

actually wants... We still don't

really know what she actually wants.

1:13:211:13:24

She has said we will leave the

customs union, she has been clear

1:13:241:13:27

about that right from the start.

And

not necessarily sure I trust

1:13:271:13:32

anything she has said. This is all a

game of strategy and looking like

1:13:321:13:35

you're trying to do what the voters

what even if that might not happen.

1:13:351:13:39

We will have to leave it there.

Thank you both very much.

1:13:391:13:41

That's all from the us this week.

1:13:411:13:43

I'll be back at the

same time next week.

1:13:431:13:51

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