04/03/2018 Sunday Politics Scotland


04/03/2018

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LineFromTo

Morning, everyone, and welcome

to the Sunday Politics.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

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And this is the programme that

will provide your essential briefing

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on everything that's moving

and shaking in the

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world of politics.

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Theresa May's big Brexit speech

appears to have done the impossible

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and united both sides

of her party for the time being

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but is the devil in the detail?

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We'll get the verdicts of former

Tory leader and Brexit supporter

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Lord Howard and leading backbencher

and Remain campaigner Nicky Morgan,

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and ask if they can

really both be happy.

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Away from Brexit, the Government yet

again promises to take on the Nimbys

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and build more houses

where we need them most.

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We'll go

through the proposals in detail.

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And on Sunday Politics Scotland:

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Ruth Davidson on the Tories,

Mike Russell on Brexit,

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And on Sunday Politics Scotland -

Ruth Davidson on the Tories,

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Mike Russell on Brexit, Lesley Laird

on Labour and the single market

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and Humza Yousaf on how we dealt -

or didn't - with the snow.

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And with me today, I've got three

hardy souls who've struggled

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through the harsh conditions

to help me to make sense of all

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the big stories - Isabel Oakeshott,

Steve Richards and Anushka Asthana.

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Well, it was as week where politics

was often given second billing

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to the weather, with people up

and down the country battling

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the Beast from the East.

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But snow or not, Theresa May had her

crucial Brexit speech to give,

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and she had a few big beasts herself

to contend with.

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Forget the weather, the UK faced

a Brexit blizzard this week.

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On Monday, Jeremy Corbyn offered up

a clear dividing line between Labour

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and the Conservatives.

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Labour would keep Britain

in a customs union with the EU.

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Labour would seek to negotiate

a new, comprehensive UK EU customs

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union to ensure there are no

tariffs with Europe.

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On Tuesday, international

trade secretary Liam Fox

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immediately hit back.

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It would be a complete sell-out

of Britain's national interest

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and a betrayal of the voters

in the referendum.

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But his speech was overshadowed

by a warning shot from the former

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boss of his own department -

Sir Martin Donnelly said leaving

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the single market and the customs

union would risk the UK

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going from feast to famine.

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It's like giving up a three course

meal for a packet of crisps.

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Also on Tuesday, Foreign Secretary

Boris Johnson took to the radio

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waves to try to ease tensions

on Northern Ireland after Brexit.

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He wasn't entirely persuasive.

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There's no border between

Camden and Westminster.

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You can't compare two boroughs

of London with the kind

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of difference in the arrangements

that would be in place after Brexit

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between the UK and the EU.

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I think it's a very

relevant comparison.

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On Wednesday, former

Prime Minister Sir John Major said

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MPs should be given a free vote

on the final Brexit deal.

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So let Parliament decide or put

the issue back to the people.

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And the EU Commission published

the first legal draft

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of the UK's exit treaty.

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The proposals were controversial.

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To avoid a hard border,

Northern Ireland must stay

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in the customs union

if all else fails.

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Theresa May was having none of it.

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No UK Prime Minister

could ever agree to it.

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On Thursday, diplomatic niceties

with the European Council

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President Donald Tusk,

as he got a preview of the Prime

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Minister's big Brexit speech.

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But the real test would come later,

when she would need a lot

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of grit to keep all members

of her own party onside.

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The big day arrived,

and with it some hard truths.

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We are leaving the single market.

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Life is going to be different.

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In certain ways, our access to each

other's markets will be

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less than it is now.

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Even after we have

left the jurisdiction

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of the European Court of Justice,

EU law and the decisions of the ECJ

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will continue to affect us.

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This was also a pitch

for a pick and mix Brexit.

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She said all EU trade deals

are tailor-made and what Britain

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wants is no different.

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If this is cherry picking,

then every trade arrangement

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is cherry picking.

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He was happy, and so was he.

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Despite being stranded

and left out in the cold.

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So, has the Prime Minister managed

to thaw the tensions

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between her Cabinet on Brexit?

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Time will tell.

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There is more than enough to chew

over with our expert panel who will

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tell us what's been going on behind

the scenes this week. Anushka, we

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asked the question, has she achieved

the impossible and United warring

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factions of the Conservative Party

over Brexit? It looks that way, will

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it stay that way?

It is impressive

politically that your guests will

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both have some praise for the speech

but it doesn't mean they agree with

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each other when it comes to Brexit.

I'm sure there's a lot they continue

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to disagree about. She managed to do

that by doubling down on the red

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lines she already had but saying

beyond that we will try to get as

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close as we can to the EU. I don't

think the Brexiteers are totally

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happy, they see this as a staging

post and happy that what she said

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future parliaments can change it.

She has done a magic trick now but

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trouble ahead still.

Isabel, a lot

of it was how in the immediate

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future we will stay tangibly similar

to EU rules and regulations, that

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won't hold with the Brexiteer crowd,

will it?

Only an idiot would predict

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peace and harmony within the Tory

party for more than a few days.

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party for more than a few days. I

think they recognise the immense

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discipline the Prime Minister

injected into the speech, in some

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ways that means bits of it don't

please everybody. There was

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frustration at the way she handled

some of the questions afterwards.

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Some would have liked her, for

example Nigel Farage, outside of the

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party of course, would have liked

her to be more explicit that no deal

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remains an option. On the other

hand, had she said that, that is

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provocative. I think Tory MPs found

she struck a balance and a great

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feeling of positivity this weekend,

maybe not next.

Steve, did it tell

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us a huge amount about what Brexit

deal might look like? Or is Theresa

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May sitting on the fence about what

the future deal will be?

I don't

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think she is sitting on the fence.

She gave a clear idea of what she

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envisages it to be. Watching it, and

reading it several times, I have

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reached the conclusion that she is

the only person that can lead this

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party.

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You have Michael Howard on in a

minute, you knows how difficult it

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is to do. She can do it and I think

they would be daft to get rid of

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her. However, having read the

speech, it is full of unexploded

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bombs metaphorically speaking. Like

the budgets that go down well on the

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day and then turn out to have hidden

bombs, I think this one does. In her

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admission we are giving up things,

we won't have the same market

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access, in saying we have given up

passporting for the financial

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services already. She did it to show

we weren't having our cake and

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eating it, she was honest, but it is

depressing to have that candour

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explained so clearly. And in

explaining we will be fully aligned

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with the EU in many ways but have

the right to diverged even if it is

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against our interest. And the all of

this, to have the right to diverge

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at a future date seems fraught with

difficulty. I see problems down

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road.

Steve's point about only this

Prime Minister can lead the party is

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a very astute one and that's what

I'm picking up this weekend, even

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from those who have been her

harshest critics, at her ability not

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to say too much which makes her seem

rather boring at times is precisely

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the reason she can manage these

delicate factions. I definitely feel

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time has run out now for those who

would like to have seen her gone

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well before Brexit next year. I feel

that has evaporated milk. We might

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be in a different place in a few

months but I would suspect not.

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Anushka bitchy answer the question

about the border between the

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Republic and Northern Ireland? Simon

Coveney said he's not sure the EU

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can support the plan she came up

with.

Both sides can smile and say

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they don't want a border, the

question is how you achieve that.

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The Government have put forward

these options, a customs partnership

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which is a slightly weird system

under which there would be checks on

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the UK border that would then be

acceptable for the rest of the EU.

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The problem is the rest of the EU

have suggested that won't be

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acceptable to them, and even very

senior figures in Government around

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the Cabinet table have told me they

think it is a completely unrealistic

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option. The second option is to use

technology to make it flow freely,

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perhaps not quite as Boris

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perhaps not quite as Boris Johnson

was suggesting, it happens in the

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congestion charge in London. He was

slightly mocked for those comments,

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but can there be a way to make it

softer in that way? Perhaps there

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can but there is no evidence you

would end up with no border. Then

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there's that tricky situation of the

EU saying the backstop is Northern

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Ireland stays in the customs union,

and the Prime Minister says that is

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unacceptable.

Thank you for that,

stay with us.

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Theresa May was on the

Andrew Marr Show this

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morning, and she was asked how

the UK's rules and regulations

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might move away from

the EU's in the future.

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Parliament will be able to take

decisions about the rules that

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are set, so in the circumstances

in which the EU

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change a particular rule,

there'd be a decision

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for us to take.

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Did we accept it

in the future or not?

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But if we didn't accept it,

there'd be an arbitration mechanism,

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an independent arbitration

mechanism, so people

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would look at it and say,

actually, you know what,

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if the UK doesn't accept that,

does it make any difference

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to the trading relationship?

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And they might say no, it doesn't,

so there's no consequence.

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They might say yes, it does,

and so there would be a consequence.

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So you're saying we might

lose market access -

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the more we diverge,

the more market access

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we might lose in the future.

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There'd be a decision to be taken.

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Joining me now from

Loughborough is the former

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Education Secretary Nicky Morgan,

who put her name down on a Commons

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amendment that calls for the UK

to participate in a customs union

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with the EU after Brexit.

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Good morning. So you heard the Prime

Minister ruling out a customs union

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which is what you say you want, and

they will be less access to EU

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markets in future, you cannot be

very happy with this speech, can

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you?

I thought it was a very

realistic speech that set out the

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compromises and hard facts we have

to face, and I think it was a

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welcome dose of realism. That's why

I think it has been welcomed from

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people on all sides of the debate

because we can get away from

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pretending things will stay the

same, that we can have the same

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benefits, and be honest with

ourselves and our constituents about

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what that means. The reason MPs put

down amendments is to get ministers

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to explain their position is more

fully and that's what we began to

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see in the Prime Minister's speech

on this issue of the border between

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Northern Ireland, the Republic of

Ireland on Friday. The Prime

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Minister could not have been more

clear this morning and last week

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that she does not want to see a hard

border between them, and that's

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where we are as well. I think there

are more discussions to come about

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the two options, as Anushka was

setting out, that the Prime Minister

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outlined, and we will have to see

what happens when the bill comes

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back to the House of Commons.

Your

amendment wasn't just about Northern

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Ireland, it said you want the UK to

stay in the customs union with the

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EU. Now you say you want to talk to

the Prime Minister about this. Talk

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about what? We are either in the

customs union or knots and her

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speech made it clear she didn't want

a customs union.

I can speak for

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myself and my colleagues, many of

whom put their name down, it was

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about the Irish border issue because

many of us got to the stage of

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thinking how can this be resolved

without being in a customs union. I

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think many of us don't care what it

is called, it's a question of what

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it does. Does it avoid a hard border

and small traders having to make

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declarations each time they crossed

the border? I was a Treasury duties

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minister, I visited the Irish border

and it is 300 miles of incredibly

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porous countryside basically. People

are crossing it everyday for work,

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for trading, and it's not just about

the economics, it's about the

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cultural and political significance

of not a hard border.

The Irish

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government and Irish Foreign

Minister Simon Coveney were saying

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this morning he didn't think EU

would accept this. Theresa May said

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a long she doesn't want a hard

border, just saying that doesn't

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mean it won't happen and the EU

don't seem satisfied with what she

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laid out as a possible solution.

The

first point is, as I said in a tweet

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on Friday, the EU cannot say and

Simon Coveney recognise that this

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morning, the EU cannot say it

doesn't know what the UK Government

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wants. Simon Coveney also agreed, as

the Prime Minister rightly set out,

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this is a problem that has been

created by Brexit and it's up to the

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UK Government, the EU and Irish

government to work together to find

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a solution. I think it is right that

talks will continue in one of those

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areas where it is best for the Irish

government and UK Government to be

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talking directly because at the

moment what's been remarkable is how

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cohesive the 27 have been in

negotiating through the commission

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but there may be ways to speed up

discussions, particularly on the

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Irish border issue. What we saw on

Friday is the Prime Minister saying

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there's difficult things ahead.

People won't remember ultimately the

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negotiations, they will remember the

enduring deal that's struck, that

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puts livelihoods and economic

security first.

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One of the hard fact is that she

laid out is we will have less access

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to EU markets. That is one of the

things that you as a Remainer have

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been worried about. Maybe she is

being pragmatic and you're welcome

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that, but is that pragmatism not

admitting were going to be worse off

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in future as a result of this?

I

think it probably is. Actually,

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while the speech was well come in

its towns, it did set out some of

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these hard truths. Some people have

said, nothing will change, it will

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have exactly the same benefits but

that is not the case. I am chair of

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the Treasury Select Committee, we

look at financial services. That

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industry understands that things are

going to change. The Prime Minister

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was clear, no more passporting.

People have reconciled themselves to

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this in the city. What next? The

Prime Minister is talking about

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mutual recognition of regulations,

that is the way to go, that is

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achievable, but this is the start of

negotiations and it is a long way to

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go. At least we are now on the

starting blocks. Your right to say

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that many of us have been concerned

about the prosperity and livelihoods

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of people in our constituencies and

our businesses. We welcome this

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speech but we will continue to watch

out for any drifting backwards

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towards some kind of idea logically

driven hard Brexit. That does not

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benefit anybody. As the Prime

Minister said on Friday, reverting

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to WTO is not a good outcome that

will benefit people in this country.

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The Prime Minister made clear that

the UK after Brexit can choose to

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stay aligned with the rules and

regulations of the EU or future

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parliaments to choose to diverged.

In those circumstances you will be

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fighting every step of the week to

try to stay aligned with the EU, I

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take it?

Not necessarily. That was a

really well come statement from the

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Prime Minister. It is for the

sovereign parliament to be making

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these decisions in future, which is

why we had the debate over the

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amendment in December because

ultimately it should be sovereign

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Parliament that makes these key

decisions in the future. In terms of

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divergences regulation, there may

well be good arguments in the future

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by businesses and industry say, we

do not need to be aligned with that

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regulation, because there is a

higher international standard that

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we can all get around and following

that will benefit our businesses.

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The point is, at the moment,

Parliament will take decisions about

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things on the basis of listening to

constituents, and that is what will

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happen in the future. That is

welcome. Financial services, that is

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the message we're getting by, there

are some international standards,

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which is what business already

comply with, higher standards than

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the EU, and that is what businesses

want to on complying with.

Nicky

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Morgan, thank you for talking to us.

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Listening to that is the former

Conservative leader Lord Howard,

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who campaigned for Britain

to leave the EU.

0:18:410:18:43

You were nodding away in agreement

with Nicky Morgan all the way

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through that interview. Not

something we thought we were going

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to see happen in the studio.

You

agree with her? I agree with very

0:18:490:18:54

much of what she said and I am

delighted to be able to agree with

0:18:540:18:58

her. Can I just say this about the

speech on Friday, I thought it

0:18:580:19:02

should the Prime Minister at her

best, cam, patient, disciplined.

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That is exactly the kind of approach

we need in these negotiations. I

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think Steve Richards was right when

he said she is the only person who

0:19:140:19:18

can lead the country through these

negotiations, and she showed her

0:19:180:19:22

qualities on Friday, and I think it

was an excellent speech, and it is

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something, of course it is a good

thing from my point of view that it

0:19:290:19:32

seems to have united the

Conservative Party, but more

0:19:320:19:36

importantly, I think it has united

the country. I think everyone in the

0:19:360:19:41

country, except perhaps those few

people are neither extreme, can

0:19:410:19:45

rally round. People like John Major

and Tony Blair? I fear that on this

0:19:450:19:52

issue John Major and Tony Blair are

to make love the people who have

0:19:520:19:55

never been able to reconcile

themselves to the results of the

0:19:550:19:59

referendum. I think a large majority

of people in the country, even of

0:19:590:20:04

those who voted Remain, they now

say, let's get on with it and see

0:20:040:20:09

what we can get out of these

negotiations. Nicky Morgan was

0:20:090:20:13

absolutely right when she said that

in years to come people will not be

0:20:130:20:17

looking back at the negotiations.

They will be looking back at the

0:20:170:20:21

outcome.

The negotiations matter

because they determine the outcome.

0:20:210:20:25

You like the tone of the speech.

When you look at the detail, does it

0:20:250:20:29

really amounted taking back control

when the Prime Minister says the UK

0:20:290:20:33

will need to make a strong

commitment that regulatory standards

0:20:330:20:37

will remain as high as the EU and in

practice they will remain similar in

0:20:370:20:41

the future?

That is not what you

campaign for. In many respects they

0:20:410:20:46

will be similar. As the Prime

Minister said this morning, on the

0:20:460:20:49

Andrew Marr programme, these

regulations are not EU regulations,

0:20:490:20:54

the international regulations. The

crucial thing is that our sovereign

0:20:540:21:01

parliament, in future, will be able

to decide whether we remain in a

0:21:010:21:04

layman, which in many cases would be

a sensible thing to do, or whether

0:21:040:21:10

we diverged, which could also be

sensible. That is what taking back

0:21:100:21:14

control means.

The sovereign

parliament will decide. Look at

0:21:140:21:18

where we do remain in alignment and

a hard fact that Theresa May picked

0:21:180:21:22

out there, in order to maintain

access we may have to maintain a

0:21:220:21:26

layman. The EU will change their

rules over the next few deals --

0:21:260:21:30

over the next few years. We will end

up having to mirror rules that we

0:21:300:21:34

had no say at all in making if we

want to maintain access.

That is not

0:21:340:21:39

control. We will be able to decide.

In some cases it may be sensible to

0:21:390:21:45

change rules to remain in alignment

with the European Union's rules but

0:21:450:21:48

in other cases it will not be, and

we will be able to decide. That is

0:21:480:21:54

what taking back control means.

You're perfectly happy with

0:21:540:21:58

associated membership of some of the

EU agencies, medicine, chemicals,

0:21:580:22:03

the aviation safety agency, and with

paying a fee to be -- to be a

0:22:030:22:11

member. Very sensible. A year ago

you would not have been telling us

0:22:110:22:15

that you wanted to stay a member of

any of these agents is a tall.

You

0:22:150:22:21

never ask me. You would have been

surprised by the answer. These are

0:22:210:22:24

sensible, practical arrangements

that we benefit from, and the EU

0:22:240:22:28

benefits.

It is sensible. We were

promised famously by David Davis

0:22:280:22:33

that we would have the exact same

benefits of being in the customs

0:22:330:22:37

union and the single market after

Brexit. The Prime Minister herself

0:22:370:22:41

said something similar. Now she's

telling us we will have less access.

0:22:410:22:47

When people were told we could leave

the EU and maintain the same

0:22:470:22:51

benefits, were they being lied to?

Not at all. I think it is a

0:22:510:22:55

consequence of what the Prime

Minister has said, that in all

0:22:550:22:59

important respects, we will have the

access we need. There may be some

0:22:590:23:03

areas where that will not be the

case, but she dealt with the most

0:23:030:23:07

important aspect in her speech on

Friday and should have in the most

0:23:070:23:10

important areas we will be able to

have access. I think that will be

0:23:100:23:16

the outcome. It is in the interests

of the European Union as well as

0:23:160:23:19

ourselves that that should be so.

They want access to our large

0:23:190:23:24

market. We are one of the six

biggest economies in the world. They

0:23:240:23:28

want access to our markets. It will

be on both our interest to reach

0:23:280:23:32

that sort of agreement.

Both wings

of the Tory party might be happy

0:23:320:23:36

with this. The speech was received

less enthusiastically in Brussels.

0:23:360:23:41

The EU will publish their draft

guidelines on how they see a future

0:23:410:23:45

deal on Tuesday. If they do not

accept the approach that Theresa May

0:23:450:23:49

has laid out, what should she do

next?

Let's concentrate on the

0:23:490:23:54

positives. We are in a negotiation.

There will inevitably be posturing

0:23:540:23:59

by the European Union in the course

of these negotiations. That is what

0:23:590:24:03

negotiations always bring with them.

But I think, as I say, it is in both

0:24:030:24:08

our interest that we should have a

good deal. At the end of the day,

0:24:080:24:13

they want our money. They will not

get our money unless there is a good

0:24:130:24:18

deal.

It has been said that a trade

deal cannot be said by putting up a

0:24:180:24:22

few extra cherries in the Brexit

cake. This speech did not persuade

0:24:220:24:26

him that is a deal to be done.

He is

not in charge of the negotiations.

0:24:260:24:32

Michel Barnier did not seem terribly

impressed. Are they going to accept

0:24:320:24:39

the Prime Minister's view that you

can accept different access for

0:24:390:24:41

different sectors?

Let's wait and

see. Michel Barnier welcome the

0:24:410:24:46

speech. There is lots of posturing.

It is invading tress and hours to

0:24:460:24:51

arrive at a deal that is very

similar to that which the Prime

0:24:510:24:55

Minister set on Friday.

You're being

very positive about with the EU is

0:24:550:25:00

likely to do. They may well not do

that. Is there a point at which the

0:25:000:25:05

Prime Minister may be forced to walk

away because they will not meet

0:25:050:25:09

halfway?

I hope not but if you go

into any negotiations in, I want to

0:25:090:25:14

deal at any price, you will be taken

to the cleaners. That is true of

0:25:140:25:20

every negotiation. I agree with the

Prime Minister when she says that in

0:25:200:25:24

the ultimate circumstance, no deal

is better than a bad deal, but I do

0:25:240:25:27

not think we're going to have a bad

deal, I think we're going to have a

0:25:270:25:31

deal along the lines the Prime

Minister set out on Friday.

She said

0:25:310:25:34

we are going to have to compromise

and we are not

0:25:340:25:41

and we are not going to get what we

want. We will have to meet someone

0:25:410:25:44

in the middle on this and the

response from the EU has not been to

0:25:440:25:48

say, we agree, let's talk about

compromise, it has to -- it has been

0:25:480:25:50

to maintain a lot of their hard

lines about cherry picking.

That

0:25:500:25:53

will change. Their approach to the

negotiations on the first stage

0:25:530:25:56

changed. All sorts of figures were

bandied about about the money we

0:25:560:26:01

would have to pay and they bore no

reality to the ultimate outcome. You

0:26:010:26:06

have to take these initial

negotiating positions with a pinch

0:26:060:26:08

of salt.

When the EU was negotiating

with Greece during its financial

0:26:080:26:16

crisis, they were absolutely

insistent, they did not soften their

0:26:160:26:18

lines.

No disrespect to Greece, but

we are not Greece. The European

0:26:180:26:25

Union needs access to our markets.

The European Union needs our money.

0:26:250:26:31

The situation is very, very

different from that which happened

0:26:310:26:35

between the EU and Greece.

Lord

Howard, thank you for talking to us

0:26:350:26:39

this morning.

0:26:390:26:42

As we've heard, Jeremy Corbyn

made his own big speech on Brexit

0:26:420:26:44

earlier in the week and he backed

a customs union.

0:26:440:26:47

So how would it work?

0:26:470:26:48

With me from Salford

is the Shadow Communities

0:26:480:26:50

Secretary, Andrew Gwynne.

0:26:500:26:51

Thank you very much for coming in to

speak to us today. We have got to

0:26:510:26:56

make a very different approaches.

Jeremy Corbyn at the beginning of

0:26:560:26:59

the week saying he wanted to stay in

a customs union, Theresa May on

0:26:590:27:05

Friday pretty much ruling it out. Is

it not Theresa May who is being

0:27:050:27:10

honest with the voters by laying out

the hard fact, as she puts it, that

0:27:100:27:14

we will have to accept we have less

access to the EU market?

Absolutely

0:27:140:27:19

not. That we are leaving the

European Union is decided. We had a

0:27:190:27:24

referendum, but the Thames by which

we leave the European Union is what

0:27:240:27:28

the negotiations are all about and

the Labour Party has always said it

0:27:280:27:31

would seek to maintain the benefits

of a customs union. In doing that,

0:27:310:27:36

we have set out our proposals for

what we think that new arrangement

0:27:360:27:40

should be, I bespoke agreement

between the EU in the UK that would

0:27:400:27:47

maintain the benefits of tariff free

trade between the UK and the

0:27:470:27:50

European Union going forward. But

one in which we are equal partners,

0:27:500:27:55

so we have a say on those new trade

deals that are being made and a half

0:27:550:28:01

of the new arrangements between our

two trading blocs.

That has never

0:28:010:28:06

happened with any other country that

has entered into a customs union

0:28:060:28:09

with the EU. Why do you think they

would give us an equal say, one of

0:28:090:28:14

us against 27 of them, when it came

to a negotiating a trade deal with

0:28:140:28:19

someone else somewhere else in the

world?

The EU is different trading

0:28:190:28:22

arrangements with different

countries.

It does and none of them

0:28:220:28:26

have a say in outside trade deals.

The difference here, as Lord Howard

0:28:260:28:31

said, we are the largest economy the

world. The European Union has

0:28:310:28:37

important trading links with the

United Kingdom, it is a two-way

0:28:370:28:41

process, and therefore it is in both

of interest that we strike a deal

0:28:410:28:45

that benefits both of us.

I do not

know what is happening on this

0:28:450:28:49

programme. You are agreeing with

Laura Taarabt, he's agreeing with

0:28:490:28:53

Nicky Morgan. It is a very unusual

morning.

You're all in the same

0:28:530:28:58

side. The difference is the

Conservatives have ruled out a

0:28:580:29:02

customs union, and we are saying

that a customs union is vital, not

0:29:020:29:05

least that we can give real

assurances that the Good Friday

0:29:050:29:09

Agreement and our treaty obligations

in the Good Friday Agreement are not

0:29:090:29:13

torn up. We do not want to lose the

advantage is that we have seen of 20

0:29:130:29:17

years of peace between Northern

Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

0:29:170:29:22

If the EU says, you can remain in a

customs union but you do not get a

0:29:220:29:25

large say in future trade deals with

countries outside of the EU and you

0:29:250:29:29

just have to accept what is

negotiated by the EU 27, would you

0:29:290:29:33

still want to be in that customs

union?

We would have to look at that

0:29:330:29:38

carefully. We want to be a rule

maker

0:29:380:29:45

maker and not a real taker. It is

hard to do that if you stay in a

0:29:450:29:49

customs union. Unless you have a new

arrangement whereby the United

0:29:490:29:51

Kingdom sits at the table when those

trade deals are being made. That is

0:29:510:29:54

the new arrangement that we seek to

make. We believe we would be in a

0:29:540:29:57

better position to make those

arrangements with the European Union

0:29:570:30:01

because we have approached the

Brexit negotiations in an entirely

0:30:010:30:05

different manner. We have said what

we would like to see in terms of

0:30:050:30:10

transitional arrangements, the

government subsequently followed on

0:30:100:30:12

a number of those issues, but all

along we have said that we want to

0:30:120:30:17

maintain the benefits of tariff free

custom free trade, and that is

0:30:170:30:21

absolutely crucial, not least for

the Northern Ireland issue.

One of

0:30:210:30:25

the things the Labour Party was

looking forward to have to Brexit,

0:30:250:30:30

and that Jeremy

0:30:300:30:30

and that Jeremy Corbyn has stressed,

was the freedom from state aid

0:30:300:30:32

rules, where the EU stops the UK

Government from giving financial

0:30:320:30:37

assistance to any particular sector

of industry. Theresa May spoke about

0:30:370:30:41

that on Friday and said it would be

necessary to sign up to the

0:30:410:30:44

directives on state aid and

procurement rules, to keep those EU

0:30:440:30:49

rules. Do you accept that will have

to happen?

0:30:490:30:55

No, and we have a different view

anyway. When it came to our

0:30:560:31:01

arguments the Government should step

in to assist the steel industry in

0:31:010:31:06

Britain, the Government used these

fallacies about state aid rules to

0:31:060:31:09

excuse themselves for not giving

adequate support to that industry.

0:31:090:31:13

We didn't believe in the

interpretation the Government made

0:31:130:31:17

because other European countries

have got round the so-called state

0:31:170:31:21

aid rules. We have said as part of

our negotiations, that is a red line

0:31:210:31:26

for us. We would want to make sure

we could facilitate state aid in a

0:31:260:31:34

number of areas where Labour Party

policies have been clearer about

0:31:340:31:36

supporting our industries.

If that

is a red line, is it more important

0:31:360:31:40

staying in the customs union, if you

have to make the choice? The EU

0:31:400:31:45

could say no customs union if you

insist on state aid.

We believe we

0:31:450:31:54

could get a bespoke arrangement for

a new customs relationship, a new

0:31:540:31:59

customs union.

I think there's a

name for that, isn't it called

0:31:590:32:03

cherry picking?

No because we

believe this is in the interests of

0:32:030:32:07

the UK and in the interests of the

European Union. 44% of our trade is

0:32:070:32:13

with the European Union, 53% of the

EU's trade is with the UK so it is

0:32:130:32:19

in both our interests that we sort

this out and get the best deal not

0:32:190:32:27

for the European Union but for

Britain outside of the European

0:32:270:32:30

Union.

You seem to be saying the

Tory government are asking for the

0:32:300:32:33

impossible in their negotiations and

won't get what they are looking for

0:32:330:32:36

but somehow if there was a Labour

government negotiating this deal,

0:32:360:32:41

all doors would open and you would

be able to select which bit of the

0:32:410:32:45

customs union you did and didn't

like and could have a bespoke deal

0:32:450:32:48

that is not available for some

reason to Theresa May.

They ruled

0:32:480:32:53

out a customs union, I think that is

a bad decision because I believe a

0:32:530:32:59

customs union, negotiated between

the UK and the European Union 27 is

0:32:590:33:04

in the best interests of sorting out

customs free tariff-free trade going

0:33:040:33:09

forward but also sorting out the

issue of the border between Ireland,

0:33:090:33:14

north and south.

Labour set out six

tests as to whether they would vote

0:33:140:33:20

for the Brexit deal in the end and

one of those was that it had to

0:33:200:33:24

deliver the same benefits we get

from being in the single market and

0:33:240:33:28

customs union. That was a quote from

David Davis, but Theresa May has

0:33:280:33:32

been clear we are not going to get

the same benefits. Does this mean

0:33:320:33:38

Labour under no circumstances will

be able to vote for any Brexit deal

0:33:380:33:43

that's been negotiated?

Let's see

what Brexit deal comes back before

0:33:430:33:47

we have a hypothetical vote on this.

You don't think there's any

0:33:470:33:51

circumstances in which it could come

back...

I believe if the Government

0:33:510:33:56

wanted to enter into negotiations to

do that, they could do that. The

0:33:560:34:01

fact the Prime Minister has conceded

is probably because they have ruled

0:34:010:34:04

out a customs union. We believe that

is the wrong decision, we believe

0:34:040:34:10

that arrangement is possible, but

let's see what the Government comes

0:34:100:34:14

back with and then we will decide

how we vote in parliament.

0:34:140:34:19

Parliament has got a meaningful vote

and that was something that had to

0:34:190:34:23

be secured through the parliamentary

processes. The Government weren't

0:34:230:34:27

going to give us that right and I

think it is right it is ultimately

0:34:270:34:32

Parliament that decides.

Thank you.

0:34:320:34:35

It's coming up to 11.40,

you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:34:350:34:37

Still to come...

0:34:370:34:38

As the government promises to cut

red tape to get more houses built,

0:34:380:34:43

Good morning and welcome

to Sunday Politics Scotland.

0:34:430:34:45

Coming up on the programme:

0:34:450:34:46

No conference for Ruth Davidson

but much to contemplate.

0:34:460:34:49

I'll be asking the Scottish

Conservative leader if Scotland

0:34:490:34:51

has reached peak Tory.

0:34:510:34:52

Holyrood now wants its own Brexit

bill, despite both Nicola Sturgeon

0:34:520:34:55

and Theresa May saying

they want to do a deal

0:34:550:35:01

over more powers.

0:35:010:35:02

And I'll be asking the Brexit

Minister exactly why he can't do

0:35:020:35:04

the deal he says he wants.

0:35:040:35:06

And blame it on the lorries -

have the HGVs been made a scapegoat

0:35:060:35:10

for the motorway chaos?

0:35:100:35:16

We have to realise that our industry

delivers everything that is in the

0:35:160:35:20

shop. It doesn't matter whether it

comes in a plane or a board, it has

0:35:200:35:25

to go into a lorry at some point.

0:35:250:35:28

Now, her conference is off this

weekend because of the snow

0:35:280:35:30

but there's been plenty to occupy

the Conservative leader

0:35:300:35:32

Ruth Davidson's mind -

not least, the Prime Minister's

0:35:320:35:35

keynote Brexit speech on Friday.

0:35:350:35:36

Beyond that, Labour are now polling

ahead of the Conservatives

0:35:360:35:38

in Scotland, at least

for Westminster elections,

0:35:380:35:40

putting the Tories' status

as the country's second

0:35:400:35:42

party at risk.

0:35:420:35:43

And the Tories may have to deal

with what they see as the threat

0:35:430:35:46

of another independence referendum

if Nicola Sturgeon decides

0:35:460:35:48

later this year there

should another one.

0:35:480:35:50

Ruth Davidson joins me now.

0:35:500:35:58

Can we start on the independence

referendum. Nicola Sturgeon her

0:35:590:36:02

search make up her mind whether to

call another one later this year.

0:36:020:36:06

David Mundell was talking about it

in the lead up to your party

0:36:060:36:10

conference, which didn't happen

because of the snow. He said on this

0:36:100:36:13

programme and July 2016 that if

Nicola Sturgeon does call another

0:36:130:36:18

referendum, the British Government

is should not stop. -- you said on

0:36:180:36:24

this programme.

Nicola Sturgeon

already tried in March last year.

0:36:240:36:29

Myself, the Prime Minister and the

Secretary of State were pretty clear

0:36:290:36:32

that there was not the time for it.

He got a pretty strong and

0:36:320:36:36

resounding response from the

Scottish people. -- you got. It took

0:36:360:36:42

away a third of their MPs at the

snap general election if he

0:36:420:36:46

regretted. There is no grants for

it, there is no mandate for it. I

0:36:460:36:51

don't doubt that Nicola Sturgeon for

the entirety of our political life

0:36:510:36:57

-- of political life for a

referendum.

On this programme, you

0:36:570:37:07

said constitutionally the UK

Government couldn't block it, no. --

0:37:070:37:13

shouldn't block it. I will continue

to argue my case that there

0:37:130:37:17

shouldn't be one because the people

of Scotland were promised...

0:37:170:37:20

And to the question I'm asking you.

This is all hypothetical. We know

0:37:200:37:26

that Nicola Sturgeon wants one. The

reason she once one is because she

0:37:260:37:33

told is back in June of last year.

She said that you'd already got a

0:37:330:37:40

structured the Scottish ministers...

I take your point that it's

0:37:400:37:42

hypothetical. It was just as

hypothetical when you said that is

0:37:420:37:46

additionally the UK Government

shouldn't block it.

Cause

0:37:460:37:51

additionally, the weather referendum

Saban is by having an agreement

0:37:510:37:55

between the Scottish and UK

Government. -- constitutionally the

0:37:550:37:59

way that referendums happen is by

having an agreement. She has to

0:37:590:38:03

demonstrate the things I talked

about in March of last year when she

0:38:030:38:06

tried, there has to be support for

it among the country, there isn't,

0:38:060:38:09

there has to be some form of trigger

for it and a has-been. Also, she has

0:38:090:38:15

to extend a country that you

promised she wouldn't do this but

0:38:150:38:18

that it would be for a generation

why she is dragging us back there

0:38:180:38:21

again and people don't want. -- she

doesn't have a mandate for it. I

0:38:210:38:28

don't believe she has a mandate.

The

answer, you stick by -- the answer

0:38:280:38:35

to whether you stick by your

statement.

Cause additionally, these

0:38:350:38:39

things are decided by the UK and

Scottish Government.

--

0:38:390:38:42

constitutionally. The UK Government

has been clear it with block of

0:38:420:38:47

referendum.

Nicola Sturgeon has to

show that she has a mandate and the

0:38:470:38:50

support for it and I don't think she

got sure any of these things at the

0:38:500:38:54

morgue.

He said you would back a

legal challenge to the continuity

0:38:540:38:57

built that the SNP proposes. -- at

the moment.

I don't want this to go

0:38:570:39:03

to court.

0:39:030:39:08

to court. There is an issue about

the Scottish Government claiming to

0:39:090:39:12

stand on a high horse of defending

devolution but running roughshod

0:39:120:39:18

over the position of the Presiding

Officer that something is outside of

0:39:180:39:23

the parliament's competency and

saying that they have proposed a

0:39:230:39:26

through as an emergency bill to as a

something contentious, a finely

0:39:260:39:30

balanced point of law, is only going

to be given three days of debate

0:39:300:39:34

about it for members. There is an

issue with the way this has been

0:39:340:39:39

handled this week.

He said that you

would welcome a legal challenge.

0:39:390:39:44

Would you consider initiating? --

you said that you would welcome.

I

0:39:440:39:47

don't see a way that if something is

outside the confidence of the

0:39:470:39:51

parliament that it is pushed through

the Government anyway, but it

0:39:510:39:55

doesn't end up "

0:39:550:39:57

the Government anyway, but it

doesn't end up ". I know from

0:39:570:40:00

speaking to my colleagues in

Westminster that they would

0:40:000:40:03

agreement on clause 11 of the Brexit

withdrawal bill, too, but I do think

0:40:030:40:08

there was a foolish this week of the

SNP deciding to introduce something

0:40:080:40:13

against the wishes of the Presiding

Officer of the parliament, who are

0:40:130:40:16

taking legal advice from the

parliament, the legal advisers of

0:40:160:40:23

the parliament, then CNV will do it

against the advice and also some

0:40:230:40:26

through as an emergency bill so that

there is only three days debate

0:40:260:40:31

about it. -- then not only did they

do it against the advice but also

0:40:310:40:35

they will ram it through as

inevitable.

The S&P worried that Ken

0:40:350:40:45

Macintosh could set a precedent for

any attempt to have another

0:40:450:40:48

independence referendum. -- the SNP.

Do think it's possible the Presiding

0:40:480:40:52

Officer Google similar grounds --

could rule on similar grounds that

0:40:520:41:00

the Scottish Parliament having a

independence referendum is

0:41:000:41:03

ultraviolet?

The only president is

being set this week is that --

0:41:030:41:10

precedent being said is that the

first time the Scottish Government

0:41:100:41:13

has rammed through a bill against

the suggestion and even of a

0:41:130:41:18

Presiding Officer. The second

precedent is that this is the first

0:41:180:41:23

time that emergency legislation has

been suggested without unanimous

0:41:230:41:28

agreement throughout the parliament.

These are the only two precedents

0:41:280:41:31

set this week in terms of Holyrood.

Gritters apply to a referendum -- it

0:41:310:41:38

is applied to a referendum on

independence?

The Presiding Officer

0:41:380:41:41

has always taken the best legal

advice available to him or her. I do

0:41:410:41:48

think that if we spoke about the

specific instance of independence

0:41:480:41:55

referendum, we have what has been

referred to by both sides as the

0:41:550:41:58

gold standard of how that happens,

that has been through, it was called

0:41:580:42:02

the Edinburgh agreement last time,

it's an agreement between the

0:42:020:42:06

Scottish and UK governments because

constitutional issues are reserved

0:42:060:42:09

and that is why the presiding

Officer flaw that this withdrawal

0:42:090:42:15

bill that has been put forward by

the SNP is ultra vires.

It was said

0:42:150:42:30

that Europe is fresh, young...

I am

still in my 30s, so I'm still young!

0:42:300:42:36

And clinging on with my fingertips.

The idea was that you were in favour

0:42:360:42:41

of being in the single market,

getting rid of freedom of movement.

0:42:410:42:45

The priority for you. You seem to

have been backpacking ever since. --

0:42:450:42:52

backtracking ever since. Is there

anything you disagree about with

0:42:520:42:56

Theresa May on Brexit?

We both

disagree with the result that

0:42:560:43:02

happen, we were both Remain. 17

1/2-million people across the

0:43:020:43:07

country, including over a million in

Scotland, voted for this. There is a

0:43:070:43:12

lot about the Brexit process that I

don't like. It is going to happen,

0:43:120:43:15

it was voted on across the UK. If

politicians decide that is so big

0:43:150:43:20

that it has to be taken outside of

representative democracy and habit

0:43:200:43:24

as direct property to everything of

water, you've got to got to listen

0:43:240:43:28

to this. -- and handed to every

single voter, you've got to listen.

0:43:280:43:37

I was quite clear. Clearly, I do

support it, physical market, and do,

0:43:370:43:44

because I had campaigned for Remain.

-- the single market. I'm very sad

0:43:440:43:50

that my cider. Win but it is about

what we can do under the way out of

0:43:500:43:55

your -- on the way out of your to

mitigate the risks of Brexit. Also

0:43:550:44:01

exporting any opportunities. One of

the things I been arguing for a very

0:44:010:44:05

hard, including directly with the

Prime Minister, is that we have to

0:44:050:44:10

get fishing rights. I was pleased to

hear on Friday in her speech for the

0:44:100:44:16

first time that a fishing was

mentioned by name but the principles

0:44:160:44:18

that we would support and what we

take into the room. Even the biggest

0:44:180:44:26

Remainers becomes Brexit because of

fishing. This is a particularly

0:44:260:44:34

important sector to Scotland and

that is what me and babies have been

0:44:340:44:38

doing on this issue, speaking up.

You asked me to give me an example.

0:44:380:44:43

-- at me and my MPs. I've spoken to

the secretary of state for

0:44:430:44:47

different, sat down with the

Chancellor, to talk about the

0:44:470:44:49

importance of fishing and how there

is a predictable to go down to

0:44:490:44:55

maximise that. You asked for an

example -- a particular route to go

0:44:550:44:59

down.

Here is my Ultra condensed

version of juries May's speech. We

0:44:590:45:08

are leaving the single market, free

movement of people come to an end,

0:45:080:45:12

the UK is glad to leave the customs

union. You agree with that?

I want

0:45:120:45:19

to see free trade, I would be happy

to see other ways of doing it.

0:45:190:45:23

That's why I voted and campaign for

Remain. The Prime Minister has said

0:45:230:45:27

she was a conference of free trade

agreement that covers all of that.

0:45:270:45:31

Les Kiss for the space to negotiate

in the room. -- lit skipper of the

0:45:310:45:36

space. That is what this was about,

it was giving the negotiating team

0:45:360:45:40

the ability to look at each

individual issue.

On the subject of

0:45:400:45:45

negotiations, you argued after the

referendum

0:45:450:45:56

that the Scottish Government should

have a role in the Brexit the

0:45:580:46:00

conscientious. What happened to that

idea? He has been regular beatings

0:46:000:46:02

of the GMC, the next one is on

Tuesday. That is about the

0:46:020:46:05

devolution of power. You arguing

that the Scottish governor should

0:46:050:46:07

have a role in the Brexit ago she

wishes in Europe.

I didn't say, I

0:46:070:46:11

was clear about this one Nicola

Sturgeon search wanted a seat at the

0:46:110:46:17

negotiating table, my worry was that

what side of the table she would sit

0:46:170:46:21

on. She wanted to stay in the EU.

The bottom line is that what started

0:46:210:46:26

off as that you would take a

different line, you're pro-European,

0:46:260:46:30

actually ends up as a green pretty

much with everything, I take your

0:46:300:46:35

point about fishing, that Theresa

May says. -- ends up as agreeing

0:46:350:46:41

pretty much. A football club would

say that you are Theresa May in

0:46:410:46:44

disguise.

There are significant

differences between Theresa May and

0:46:440:46:51

I. There is an issue but we are in

negotiations. My job as the leader

0:46:510:46:57

of the Scottish Conservative Party,

the Leader of the Opposition in

0:46:570:47:00

Scotland, is to make sure that

industries and sectors in Scotland

0:47:000:47:05

that are particularly important,

recognised opportunities they can

0:47:050:47:07

get out of Europe, it's to make sure

they can get access to the UK

0:47:070:47:11

Government. That's what I'd be

doing. Free dig in what they've been

0:47:110:47:14

so you are making sure they can sit

down with UK ministers themselves.

0:47:140:47:19

-- reading in what they've been

saying.

Will you still be the next

0:47:190:47:24

First Minister, given there's been a

slippage in the polls?

I think we

0:47:240:47:27

can be and we can see how we should

be. We already have more SNP is that

0:47:270:47:32

the SNP did in the tremor that they

had before -- we already have more

0:47:320:47:37

MSP 's than the SNP did in the tour

before they took office. They said

0:47:370:47:42

that we couldn't get 13 MPs since

June. We've gone up and up, you say

0:47:420:47:48

we fit beak and yet more and more

people are are voting for us across

0:47:480:47:54

Scotland. I hope that the Scottish

people can appreciate what the

0:47:540:47:59

Scottish Conservatives are doing.

Are you going to be the next Prime

0:47:590:48:03

Minister?

No.

0:48:030:48:05

It was a fair bet that the Scottish

Government wouldn't find much

0:48:050:48:08

to love about Theresa May's keynote

Brexit speech - and it didn't.

0:48:080:48:11

The First Minister summed

it up as offering more

0:48:110:48:13

detail but no progress.

0:48:130:48:14

Downing Street said this week that

both leaders had agreed

0:48:140:48:16

to meet later this month

to discuss their differences.

0:48:160:48:18

It would seem that there'll be

plenty to talk about.

0:48:180:48:21

Well, joining me now

is the Brexit Minister,

0:48:210:48:23

Michael Russell, who this week

introduced the Scottish

0:48:230:48:25

Government's alternative

to the EU Withdrawal Bill.

0:48:250:48:31

Not quite as nice a view today.

That

is because it is snowing at the

0:48:310:48:40

moment.

We will keep this brief to

let you get out of it. Can you

0:48:400:48:44

explain exactly what the problem is.

The way it has been expertly by the

0:48:440:48:48

Conservatives is that the British

Government is proposing that

0:48:480:48:52

everything will be devolved, they

would change clause 11, that the

0:48:520:48:57

Scottish parliament would agree not

to change certain things and tell a

0:48:570:49:00

common UK framework is worked out.

Is that what is being proposed?

No,

0:49:000:49:04

not as far as I'm concerned. The

problem that exists is on the single

0:49:040:49:09

would agree. If I meet David

Lidington on Thursday, along with my

0:49:090:49:16

Welsh Greg Burke, if they are

prepared to put on the table and

0:49:160:49:20

amendment to their own bill that

means that the Scottish parliament

0:49:200:49:23

will agree to any framework, and

will agree how its governed, we can

0:49:230:49:26

do that deal. -- on the table an

amendment.

The sticking point is

0:49:260:49:34

that they've agreed to devolve

everything but on the common

0:49:340:49:39

framework you want it written into

the deal that the Scottish

0:49:390:49:41

parliament would have to agree to

any specific measure that becomes

0:49:410:49:46

part of the common framework?

And

that is the position of the Welsh.

0:49:460:49:52

Rebecca is clear that we are quite

happy with the idea of frameworks.

0:49:520:49:55

-- we've made it clear that we are

happy. But it has to be agreed.

0:49:550:50:00

Those powers that exist in Scotland.

Without agreeing to it, they could

0:50:000:50:04

conceivably oppose frameworks that

would write the code and waters do

0:50:040:50:09

work that was already being done to

support farmers. -- they could ride

0:50:090:50:13

their coat and horses through work

that was already being done. David

0:50:130:50:17

Mundell said that nothing was good

to be imposed yesterday. That's

0:50:170:50:21

exactly what we want. -- was good to

say that nothing was going to be

0:50:210:50:26

imposed yesterday.

Have they said

they would allow the Scottish

0:50:260:50:30

parliament to agree specific

measures that become part of a

0:50:300:50:33

common fruit have they proposed some

of mediation body?

0:50:330:50:40

The present position is they have

not agreed to the word" agree". The

0:50:400:50:45

word they are using is consult. The

consultation has got us nowhere and

0:50:450:50:50

there has to be the word agree and

if that exists and we can find a way

0:50:500:50:54

in which the Scottish Parliament

agrees to these frameworks, but the

0:50:540:50:57

subject and governance, then we can

do a deal. If we cannot, that will

0:50:570:51:02

not happen.

To be clear, as matters

stand, the British Government is

0:51:020:51:09

saying, according to you, let's say

there is a disagreement on payment

0:51:090:51:14

standards or something, that they

would just do it, that is now a UK

0:51:140:51:18

affair and you don't have control

over that whereas you are saying we

0:51:180:51:23

will vote on the payment standard in

the Scottish Parliament and if we

0:51:230:51:26

agree it is part of a common

framework, it will be.

Absolutely.

0:51:260:51:30

That is the basis of devolution and

respect the devolved settlement, how

0:51:300:51:35

we operate. There are some

differences in certain areas,

0:51:350:51:40

otherwise we couldn't do minimum

pricing on alcohol, for example. All

0:51:400:51:44

we're asking if the UK Government

observe this and we are willing to

0:51:440:51:48

do things on this basis and have

been for months. As long as that can

0:51:480:51:52

be agreed, either this week in

London or at the meeting in Downing

0:51:520:51:56

Street next week, then we can do a

deal. If we cannot, there will be no

0:51:560:52:00

deal. Simple that.

How would it

affect the future? Let's say the

0:52:000:52:06

Scottish Parliament must agree on

things that are part of a common

0:52:060:52:10

framework and the British Government

decides to change Trading Standards,

0:52:100:52:16

said, are you saying they would have

the right to do that or would they

0:52:160:52:20

have to come back to the Scottish

Parliament?

If it is covered as a

0:52:200:52:25

devolved area, it would be hazard is

now. If there was a requirement

0:52:250:52:29

under the framework for it to be

unified, then we would all agree to

0:52:290:52:33

make those steps. This is

commonplace. The problem in other

0:52:330:52:38

places is that they have never

looked up and seeing what happens in

0:52:380:52:41

the rest of the world, they seem to

be terrified in some way this will

0:52:410:52:44

affect their ability to sign trade

deals. It happens in Canada and

0:52:440:52:49

right across the world. What they

want to do is have a veto on things

0:52:490:52:54

that are part of the devolved

settlement for Scotland, Wales and

0:52:540:52:57

Northern Ireland and we're not

prepared to accept that. We have

0:52:570:52:59

been saying this very clearly since

the bill was published. It cannot be

0:52:590:53:04

a surprise to them, so what they

have to do is accept that is what

0:53:040:53:07

they need to do and then we can move

ahead. None of us want Brexit. I

0:53:070:53:11

have been listening to Ruth Davidson

with incredulity, she changes her

0:53:110:53:15

position daily. But none of us

really want Brexit. Those of us are

0:53:150:53:19

looking at this disaster unfolding

but this is about legal cliff edge

0:53:190:53:25

and we are trying to resolve it.

Don't turn round to quickly but the

0:53:250:53:32

Beast from the East is right at your

back. We had better let you go!

0:53:320:53:37

Indeed.

Thank you.

0:53:370:53:42

Well, weather permitting,

Scottish Labour gathers

0:53:420:53:44

for its conference later this week

in the knowledge that

0:53:440:53:47

Jeremy Corbyn's support of a customs

union post-Brexit has established

0:53:470:53:49

a clear dividing line

between Labour and the Tories.

0:53:490:53:51

They also know that the Prime

Minister's Brexit speech last week

0:53:510:53:53

was better received by the two wings

of her party than many Labour

0:53:530:53:57

supporters had anticipated.

0:53:570:53:58

Well, on the line from London now

is the Shadow Secretary

0:53:580:54:00

of State for Scotland, Lesley Laird.

0:54:000:54:04

Are you happy with the idea that

Labour backs a customs union?

Good

0:54:040:54:09

morning, Gordon. Yes, I think the

party is happy that Labour is

0:54:090:54:13

backing a customs union. I think

since Jeremy made the announcement

0:54:130:54:18

earlier this week, I think the party

has very much got behind this and is

0:54:180:54:22

unified in the approach and I am

delighted.

Single market?

The single

0:54:220:54:27

market, as we have consistently

said, is that when we leave the EU,

0:54:270:54:33

the current single market and the

current customs union agreement

0:54:330:54:37

falls away and the recognition is

that we would need to negotiate new

0:54:370:54:44

arrangements...

We will discuss the

difference between the

0:54:440:54:52

difference between the word a and

the in a moment but would you want

0:54:530:54:57

to remain in a single market with

the EU?

The current single market

0:54:570:55:01

agreement requires us to be a member

of the EU.

When a motion is Boutier

0:55:010:55:08

conference and it is proposed by her

predecessor, as Iain Murray

0:55:080:55:14

proposed, to stay in the customs

union and the single market, you

0:55:140:55:17

would oppose this?

Well, we would

have to wait and see what comes to

0:55:170:55:21

conference. That will be for the

conference arrangements committee. I

0:55:210:55:25

believe there are a number of

motions being put and I will wait to

0:55:250:55:30

see...

Whether it is put or not, you

would oppose it?

We need to wait and

0:55:300:55:35

see the wording.

0:55:350:55:41

see the wording. We have agreed from

the outset that as a party we

0:55:410:55:43

recognise the benefits of the single

market. We have put a job is first

0:55:430:55:46

and economy first Brexit at the

heart of our decision-making and

0:55:460:55:48

will continue to do that.

Anna

Soubry, the Conservative MP, back, I

0:55:480:55:52

believe, by Chuka Umunna, has put

forward an amendment to the trade

0:55:520:55:55

bill which would require the UK to

remain in a customs union with the

0:55:550:56:00

EU. The Labour vote for that

amendment?

Well, I think, as we have

0:56:000:56:04

consistently said, and I know that

Barry Gardiner has said this, we

0:56:040:56:09

will wait to see what comes forward,

we have amendment is over in that we

0:56:090:56:13

will consider and we will look at

all of that in the round when the

0:56:130:56:15

time comes.

So, you cannot say you

will vote for this?

I cannot see it

0:56:150:56:20

until we see the full picture of

what everyone is going to present.

0:56:200:56:23

We will no doubt have our own

amendments. I think there will be

0:56:230:56:27

some consensus across the house that

we shall have to wait and see. All

0:56:270:56:30

through this process...

This sounds

very tepid. You have an opportunity

0:56:300:56:38

to get together with the SNP and

perhaps sections of the Conservative

0:56:380:56:45

Party and tell the British

Government that it has to stay in

0:56:450:56:48

the customs union and you don't seem

to be prepared to commit to doing

0:56:480:56:53

that.

We have been the party that

has consistently been playing

0:56:530:56:56

grown-up politics. We have

consistently brought for word...

0:56:560:57:00

Quite like it hasn't achieved

anything. We have achieved a lot of

0:57:000:57:04

practical things. Around the

transition period. The Conservatives

0:57:040:57:09

had taken that off the table. We

also have been pushing the Scottish

0:57:090:57:16

Conservatives around clause 11 and

you have just been debating clause

0:57:160:57:19

11 and the contingency bill that is

now required. And that is because of

0:57:190:57:24

the shambolic way around which the

Tory Government are handling this.

0:57:240:57:28

So, Labour are doing what they

should be doing, which is acting as

0:57:280:57:32

irresponsible opposition and playing

grown-up politics.

You could simply

0:57:320:57:37

say, I should make clear we're not

talking about the Brexit bill, this

0:57:370:57:41

is a trade bill which provides for

continuity after they leave the EU.

0:57:410:57:46

You could quite easily say, if there

is an amendment saying we should

0:57:460:57:50

stay in a customs union, we will

back that. But other than saying,

0:57:500:57:53

let's wait and see, you could say,

the Labour Party will put forward an

0:57:530:57:58

amendment demanding that Britain

stay in a customs union and will try

0:57:580:58:01

to get cross-party support to get

that through Parliament so we will

0:58:010:58:04

stay in a customs union.

As I

iterated at the start, Gordon, we

0:58:040:58:10

will bring forward our own

amendments and clearly if there is

0:58:100:58:13

opportunity to work in partnership

with other parties, we have done

0:58:130:58:17

this previously, we worked with

Dominic Grieve when he brought

0:58:170:58:21

forward his amendment, which allowed

for Parliament to have the final say

0:58:210:58:25

on the deal. So, we will continue to

play those grown-up politics and to

0:58:250:58:30

work as we have done in a consensual

way with all parties across the

0:58:300:58:34

house.

Thank you, Lesley Laird. I

hope the House of Commons is all

0:58:340:58:38

right behind you, it is looking a

bit...

It is not as cold down here

0:58:380:58:45

as it is in Scotland so I hope you

are all wrapped up safe and warm.

0:58:450:58:50

Now, even if you've been out

of the country, you're unlikely

0:58:500:58:54

to have missed the impact

of the so-called

0:58:540:58:56

beast from the east.

0:58:560:58:57

Despite warnings, many people

either chose or had no

0:58:570:58:59

choice but to ignore them.

0:58:590:59:00

It was particularly bad for drivers

on the M80 near Stirling -

0:59:000:59:03

some of whom were stuck for 15

hours and more.

0:59:030:59:06

Local residents took action

themselves to keep these unfortunate

0:59:060:59:08

souls fed and watered.

0:59:080:59:09

Drivers questioned the lack

of official response, whilst

0:59:090:59:11

the First Minister suggested

non-essential HGV lorries

0:59:110:59:12

were to blame for the delay.

0:59:120:59:14

One of those motorists stuck on the

M80, he is trying to get home to

0:59:140:59:20

Plymouth and stuck just outside

Stirling. Thank you very much for

0:59:200:59:24

talking to us. How long have you

been stuck?

Since eight o'clock last

0:59:240:59:30

night, about 15 hours now.

Fortunately, the local people here

0:59:300:59:34

have come down to the motorway to

help us out, they were asking if

0:59:340:59:37

everyone was all right and handing

out blankets.

Have you been given

0:59:370:59:41

any indication about when you might

be able to get moving?

None at all,

0:59:410:59:45

really. No, we have had very little

information. I have seen police cars

0:59:450:59:52

driving around New Year. But no one

has stopped to talk to us.

During a

0:59:520:59:59

red weather warning, and HTV should

not be on one of our trunk roads

0:59:591:00:03

unless it is absolutely unavoidable

and I saw some branded HGV tracks in

1:00:031:00:11

pictures yesterday and given the

branding on them, I would struggle

1:00:111:00:13

to say they were unavoidable, so

that the message that should go out

1:00:131:00:20

strongly from this chamber to Xhosa

use HGV lorries in weather

1:00:201:00:24

conditions this.

If we didn't have

hauliers out there, we wouldn't have

1:00:241:00:29

milk and bread and food and

supermarkets and shops. So, to just

1:00:291:00:33

generalise and say there were many

hauliers not doing essential

1:00:331:00:39

journeys is really not very helpful.

We all know that every single

1:00:391:00:45

morning the M80 is horrendous

between 8am, so even I knew there

1:00:451:00:50

would be a problem with that road in

the Government should have looked at

1:00:501:00:52

that earlier. 30 hours later we

still have tracks on a major trunk

1:00:521:00:56

road in Scotland and I think

questions need to be asked as to why

1:00:561:00:59

that was not cleared quicker.

1:00:591:01:02

Transport Secretary Humza Yousaf

joins me now from Dundee.

1:01:021:01:07

You heard what that truck driver was

saying. Ten years ago there was a

1:01:071:01:13

heavy downfall of snow and hundreds

of people were stuck overnight on

1:01:131:01:16

the M80. Sorry, eight years ago.

Eight years later, the same thing

1:01:161:01:25

happens, hundreds of people stuck on

the M80. Why is this happening?

You

1:01:251:01:31

are right, lessons need to be

learned but this weather event was

1:01:311:01:36

the first ever read warning for snow

in Scotland, so it's not like we had

1:01:361:01:40

a precedent. Clearly, lessons should

be learned and must be but I would

1:01:401:01:47

also like to say that for the

incidents but did take place and

1:01:471:01:53

those are deeply regrettable, of

course there are many other parts of

1:01:531:01:56

the trunk road network where advice

was he didn't things moved as they

1:01:561:02:00

should. There were some positives

out of that but clearly lessons need

1:02:001:02:05

to be learned.

Again, at that truck

driver said and I know from my own

1:02:051:02:09

experience, you can drive in the

rush-hour in that section of the M80

1:02:091:02:14

on a sunny morning in the summer and

there are problems. You have had

1:02:141:02:18

plenty of warning this red alert was

going to come. Why didn't you...

1:02:181:02:24

Could you not have taken lorries off

the road? If you had closed the M84

1:02:241:02:29

for a few hours and let the snow

ploughs into clear it, then it might

1:02:291:02:33

have been in Kameni but would not

have left people stranded for 18

1:02:331:02:36

hours. Why was nothing done?

Thank

you for your expert advice but the

1:02:361:02:41

fact of the matter was that there

were dozens of snow ploughs on the

1:02:411:02:45

M80 in the days before that and of

course during the weather warning

1:02:451:02:50

time, so there was grit out but if

you would like to remind yourself of

1:02:501:02:54

what happened on Wednesday, we had

around 80 hours of continuous

1:02:541:02:59

blizzard conditions, not easy for

anybody to deal with. So, as much as

1:02:591:03:03

I do respect your advice on this

matter, snowploughs where out there.

1:03:031:03:08

Let me make a second point which is

really important. This is an

1:03:081:03:12

operational matter for Police

Scotland weather roads are closed or

1:03:121:03:15

not. The point the First Minister

was making, and I watched the

1:03:151:03:19

cameras live for pretty much

three-day strike in our control

1:03:191:03:23

centre, there were clearly weather

warnings issued around avoiding

1:03:231:03:26

travel unless absolutely essential.

I struggle to see why HGV lorries,

1:03:261:03:32

from the branding anyway, carrying

flatpack furniture, stationery,

1:03:321:03:37

empty car transporters, how anybody

can justify this as essential, yes,

1:03:371:03:41

food, fuel, all of that makes sense,

but certainly there was too much

1:03:411:03:45

evidence for my eyes anyway, and

hence why I have called with a

1:03:451:03:49

meeting for the Road hauliers

Association and the freight cars but

1:03:491:03:51

Association.

I am not trying to give

expert advice, I am simply asking

1:03:511:03:57

the question, could more not have

been done? Did we know the specific

1:03:571:04:00

section of the motoring is a problem

and that there was plenty of warning

1:04:001:04:04

of a red alert, is there nothing

that could have been done other than

1:04:041:04:10

later to blame truck drivers?

Nobody

has blamed truck drivers, the First

1:04:101:04:14

Minister was asked the question I

remember the opposition at FMQs and

1:04:141:04:19

gave an answer. All I have said is

that clearly there are lessons for

1:04:191:04:22

all of us, including the Government

and the police and we will have that

1:04:221:04:26

proper

1:04:261:04:31

proper debriefed. Clearly, there are

sections of the motor ways where we

1:04:311:04:37

will have to look at again and ask

if we can do things differently. If

1:04:371:04:41

people will not listen to the crisp

and clear advice that was given and

1:04:411:04:45

choose to travel or have no choice

but to do so, then can we do

1:04:451:04:50

something like restricting lanes

particularly for HGV vehicle is?

1:04:501:04:54

Clearly, we cannot do that for the

whole trunk road network but where

1:04:541:04:59

there are a pinch points, how do we

reinforce it and what's legal powers

1:04:591:05:02

to we have?

1:05:021:05:07

Exactly same thing happened in

exactly the same place eight years

1:05:071:05:10

ago. You've heard it used to think

of doing what you've just suggested

1:05:101:05:14

you might do in the future. --

keypad eight years to think.

No, we

1:05:141:05:19

find no Mr Reid and traffic customs

-- and traffic has managed to flow.

1:05:191:05:27

To say that we could have led, there

was never a red warning for snow

1:05:271:05:33

before in this country. This is

unprecedented in Scotland. Let's not

1:05:331:05:38

be foolish about this. There is

listen to be led and everything

1:05:381:05:42

that. -- as lessons to be learnt.

He

suggested a special late for SGB --

1:05:421:05:51

HGVs. Will there be a new policy

about that particular motorway and

1:05:511:05:55

perhaps others that will make sure

that I accept that you can never

1:05:551:05:59

make sure nothing happens but at

least it would mean that we will be

1:05:591:06:03

more prepared the next time.

Yes, we

are still in the middle of a yellow

1:06:031:06:09

weather warning. A attention and

focus is to get us through this

1:06:091:06:13

period of weather warnings. -- my

attention. They will be a debrief

1:06:131:06:18

afterwards and part of the

conversation will be with the RHA

1:06:181:06:22

and the FTA, they will be part of

the solution and come up with a

1:06:221:06:28

common solution and understanding of

how to avoid this from happening.

1:06:281:06:30

For the majority of the John -- the

trunk road network, HGVs and others

1:06:301:06:38

passed through it without incident.

And juries as to the force over

1:06:381:06:42

travel warrants. You were asking

people not to take to the roads. --

1:06:421:06:47

and dubious as to the force of your

travel warnings. What happens to

1:06:471:06:51

people that did not turn up to work,

could they be disciplined? They say

1:06:511:06:58

that the reason they didn't go to

work was because the transport

1:06:581:07:01

minister told me they shouldn't get

in the car and there was no public

1:07:011:07:07

transport.

I'd be extremely

disappointed if employers chose to

1:07:071:07:11

dock wages for somebody because they

couldn't travel during the red

1:07:111:07:15

warning. I've had a number of

e-mails that have come from

1:07:151:07:19

individuals, that will be part of

the debrief.

If I deem us from

1:07:191:07:23

people saying what? That they are

being disciplined? -- you fat

1:07:231:07:27

e-mails from people saying what.

They are saying that they've had

1:07:271:07:33

their wages docked, etc. When the

Government and police and other

1:07:331:07:36

agencies come together to give crisp

and clear advice, it is not for our

1:07:361:07:40

own good it is for the safety of the

travelling public.

It is a bit like

1:07:401:07:46

warning drivers, you can warn

employers that it's not acceptable.

1:07:461:07:49

Are you intending to do anything?

Can you do anything. I don't know

1:07:491:07:57

about the legal position.

It will be part of the debrief after

1:07:571:08:01

the yellow weather warning buses on

Monday night. Talking to a employers

1:08:011:08:05

and having that dialogue and looking

at what we can do a spot of that

1:08:051:08:12

discussion. -- the weather warning

passes on Monday night.

I presume

1:08:121:08:18

that is not a picture of brandy that

is life. -- Dundee that is life.

1:08:181:08:25

Goodbye.

1:08:251:08:26

It's time to look back

on what's happened this week

1:08:261:08:29

and what's coming up.

1:08:291:08:30

With me now are Libby

Brooks of the Guardian

1:08:301:08:32

and Ramsay Jones, a former adviser

to David Cameron

1:08:321:08:34

and the Scottish Conservatives.

1:08:341:08:37

Ruth Davidson wasn't prepared to

commit to say that the British

1:08:371:08:43

Government shouldn't put another

referendum. It is clear that the

1:08:431:08:45

British Government would.

Number

one, I don't think that one will be

1:08:451:08:51

called, secondly, I think another

Edinburgh agreement would be

1:08:511:08:54

hard-fought and hard on this time,

to be honest. It would be a replay

1:08:541:08:59

of last time we are be careful what

you wish for is the view taken by

1:08:591:09:05

the UK Government back then when

Alex Salmond unexpectedly won a

1:09:051:09:11

majority and had the right. I think

that the same thing would play out

1:09:111:09:15

again. With the Edinburgh Agreement,

if it replicated again, what with

1:09:151:09:21

the conditions be?

Would it be

played out? The British Government

1:09:211:09:25

have made it pretty clear that they

will not have one. At least until

1:09:251:09:30

the May general election.

They have

made it clear. There is at the

1:09:301:09:34

question of whether this is

something that Nicola Sturgeon

1:09:341:09:36

herself once. She was speaking on

another channel earlier today and

1:09:361:09:43

she was talking about the fact that

she was very concerned that we would

1:09:431:09:47

reach the autumn without really any

sort of clarity on what the Brexit

1:09:471:09:52

deal means. -- Nicola Sturgeon

herself wants. And she has been

1:09:521:09:56

previously said that you would then

have to make a decision on whether

1:09:561:10:02

she wants a second referendum. And

this was absent Mr.

What would

1:10:021:10:06

please the Scottish Government

enormously would be to be blocked.

1:10:061:10:11

Therefore, to go for an advisory one

with no legal backing and great

1:10:111:10:15

elliptical input. That is one the

likely to win. --

with Davidson pass

1:10:151:10:29

policy on Brexit, is anything left

of her baldness?

She has remained

1:10:291:10:33

fairly consistent and it is always

been a difficult line from her. --

1:10:331:10:42

boldness. She was talking earlier to

you about pushing on fisheries. I'd

1:10:421:10:49

like to know whether she has had

conversations about population,

1:10:491:10:52

which is something the Scottish

Government is concerned about in

1:10:521:10:55

terms of...

This is the idea of

having a different immigration

1:10:551:10:59

policy for Scotland.

It would be

interesting to Rashford what the

1:10:591:11:03

discussion would be in Aberdeen this

week and -- to hear what the

1:11:031:11:09

discussion would be in Aberdeen this

week if the Conservative conference

1:11:091:11:13

had gone ahead. Jacob Rees-Mogg's

hard Brexit letter was signed by

1:11:131:11:20

four Scottish MPs. I imagine that

they would say that this is simply

1:11:201:11:26

meaning that it is a broad church.

Theresa May is not the only person

1:11:261:11:32

who has a variety of views and her

party. I would argue that one of the

1:11:321:11:36

things she's been very good at has

been to encourage voters that would

1:11:361:11:41

not normally vote for Conservative

devote her party shown that she is

1:11:411:11:46

hurting different flavour of party

did answer. -- for the Conservative

1:11:461:11:53

to vote for her party that she is

heading a different flavour of

1:11:531:11:57

party.

Everybody is looking for

somebody else to blame. One of the

1:11:571:12:01

things that has restricted me over

the last five days, maybe just me

1:12:011:12:07

harking back to my youth when we

just got onto it, everybody was to

1:12:071:12:11

blame somebody else. We just want to

have our cake and eat it, we want to

1:12:111:12:16

get to the shops... People panic

buying. We create this ourselves

1:12:161:12:22

sometimes.

But if we drive RPM -- if

we drive up the M80, there are HGVs

1:12:221:12:30

in front of you, there's nothing you

can do.

If the road is open and you

1:12:301:12:34

are a whole year, then you have

reasonable expectation to expect you

1:12:341:12:41

can go. There are sometimes pressure

to get through even if your goods

1:12:411:12:46

are not essential.

It's essential to

think that sometimes things just

1:12:461:12:49

have to stop.

Right, everything?

In

terms of HGVs, they are essential to

1:12:491:13:00

our transport infrastructure and

they are difficult to drive in snow,

1:13:001:13:04

so perhaps we need clearer

guidance...

It's interesting that

1:13:041:13:08

Humza Yousaf says that he has been

contacted by people who have been

1:13:081:13:13

disciplined or threatened by

employers because they have followed

1:13:131:13:18

the Government's advice.

I wonder if

we have to look at clearer insurers

1:13:181:13:23

guidelines as well. That was of the

problems with HGVs, that may employ

1:13:231:13:28

their employers as well. -- that was

one of the problems.

Some of these

1:13:281:13:34

people on this debris contracts...

Regardless of the contract, if any

1:13:341:13:37

employer is not looking after the

health and well-being of employees,

1:13:371:13:41

then shame on them. Name and shame

them.

-- on these temporary

1:13:411:13:46

contracts.

1:13:461:13:47

That's all from the us this week -

I'm back at the same time next week.

1:13:471:13:51

Until then, goodbye.

1:13:511:13:58

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