11/03/2018 Sunday Politics Scotland


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11/03/2018

Sarah Smith and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Guests include Jack Straw, Sam Gyimah and Baroness Neville-Jones.


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Morning, everyone.

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I'm Sarah Smith and this

is the Sunday Politics.

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I'll be bringing you up to speed

on all the political

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comings and goings in

Westminster and beyond.

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Coming up in today's programme.

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As the investigation into the nerve

agent attack in Salisbury continues,

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we'll be taking to the former

Home Secretary Jack Straw

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and former Security Minister,

Pauline Neville Jones.

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Is there room for more spending?

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Ahead of his spring statement this

week, the Chancellor Philip Hammond

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has hinted austerity could be over

as he said there was "light

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at the end of the tunnel".

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We join the Universities minister

Sam Gyimah on what's jokingly been

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called a "punishment

tour" of the country -

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trying to attract students

to the Conservative Party.

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Most of my friends always slander

the Conservative name saying it's

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only for middle aged men who want to

benefit from themselves.

At first I

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was like, I'm not going to say it.

One of my flatmates was like, if you

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are not Labour, don't talk to me and

I was like OK.

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In London, the Liberal Democrat

leader Vince Cable tells us why he's

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And on Sunday Politics Scotland...

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Richard Leonard tries to rally

the troops but could the single

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market crack become a chasm?

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I'll be speaking to him

from his party conference in Dundee.

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And as usual we've got three

Westminster insiders who will take

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us behind the headlines and tell us

what's really going on.

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Today I'm joined by Tom Newton Dunn,

Dia Chakravarty and George Eaton.

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The unfolding events over the past

week in the cathedral city

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of Salisbury could have been taken

straight from the pages

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of a spy thriller.

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The poisoning of a Russian former

double agent who had passed secrets

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to Britain and moved to Salisbury

after a 2010 spy swap, involved

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the use of a sinister nerve agent.

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It has shocked the country

with the finger of suspicion

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pointing firmly at Moscow.

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The big story of the week started

in Salisbury after a former

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Russian double agent,

Sergei Skripal, and his daughter

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Yulia and the policeman who went

to their aid all mysteriously fell

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ill because an as yet

unidentified nerve agent.

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12 years ago, Alexander Litvinenko

was killed by polonium 210.

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Was this more Russian foul play?

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Boris Johnson was quick

to retaliate, saying there could be

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implications for this summer's

World Cup in Russia.

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I think it will be very difficult

to imagine that UK representation

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in that event could go ahead

in the normal way.

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Did he mean the England team?

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The Prime Minister explained.

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The point the Foreign Secretary

was making yesterday was that,

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depending on what comes out

in relation to the investigation

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into the attack on the two

individuals that took place

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in Salisbury, that it might be

appropriate for the government

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to look at whether ministers

and other dignitaries should attend

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the World Cup in Russia.

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Russian state TV mocked the Foreign

Secretary for his comments,

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but the government's

firm language persisted.

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The use of a nerve agent on UK soil

is a brazen and reckless act.

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This was attempted murder

in the most cruel and public way.

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We still can't get through a week

without mentioning the B word

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as the Chancellor delivered

the latest big Brexit speech.

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He's determined to get

a good deal for the city.

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We still can't get through a week

without mentioning the B word

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So I'm clear not only

that it is possible to include

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financial services within a trade

deal, but that it is very much

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in our mutual interest to do so.

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Perhaps unsurprisingly

the EU disagreed.

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Also when it comes to financial

services, life will be

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different after Brexit.

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The EU had other things to worry

about, though, as Donald Trump put

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forward his highly controversial

plan to make American steel

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and aluminium great again.

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Surrounded by metal workers,

the President signed proclamations

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to impose a 25% tariff on steel

and a 10% tariff on aluminium

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imports into the US.

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The European Union has not treated

us well and it's been a very,

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very unfair trade situation.

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Claims of Parliamentary bullying

and sexual harassment hit

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the headlines with some

of the allegations going

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all the way to the top.

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Back in 2010, a woman called

Kate Emms took up the position

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as John Bercow's private secretary.

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But she stood down from that post

after less than a year.

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Her colleagues told Newsnight

that this is because Mr Bercow's

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bullying left her unable to continue

in that job.

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Theresa May enthusiastically

welcomed Saudi royalty

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to Downing Street this week.

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Mohammed bin Salman was even treated

to lunch at the Palace.

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Billboards sprung up extolling

in the crown prince's virtues.

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Supporters of the man

they call Mr Everything say

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he is a great reformer.

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But protests surrounding UK arms

sales were also highly visible

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and with Saudi's intervention

in Yemen ongoing, the visit

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angered Jeremy Corbyn.

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British arms sales have sharply

increased and British military

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advisers are directing the war.

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It cannot be right

that her government...

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Mr Speaker, it cannot be right

that her government is colluding

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in what the United Nations says

is evidence of war crimes.

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Clearly riled, Theresa May

got her own back, calling

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Jeremy Corbyn out on the eve

of International Women's Day.

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Can I thank the Right

Honourable Gentleman

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for telling me that it is

International Women's Day tomorrow.

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LAUGHTER.

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I think that's what's

called "mansplaining".

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Tom, Dia and George

were watching that with me.

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Now some insight and analysis into

what's going on behind the

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headlines. The big story of the week

is obviously the poisoning of Sergei

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Skripal and whether or not Russia

was involved. A lot of people have

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been quick to assume that President

Putin sanctioned this and it's a

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Russian state operation but can we

be sure of that?

Reasonably sure,

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yes, clearly there is no physical

proof to produce at the moment. I

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think by the end of last week the

government were in no doubt that

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this was ordered by the Russian

state and in particular Vladimir

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Putin, who, under Russian state

rules, has to sign of all foreign

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assassinations personally since rule

change in 2006. The reason I think

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they are almost certain about this

is quite frankly no one else has a

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motive to do that. Who would want to

do a better job in spite of analogy

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on an old colonel living quietly in

Salisbury? Not the people have the

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modes of delivery to do this, to

pass a nerve agent, chemical

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weapons, on Britain's streets.

Thirdly, this will be the killer,

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the scientific proof it was an

extremely rare nerve agent, used,

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not one of the more widely available

once you see in things like Syria,

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it's a rare particular type which

has only been known to be produced

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in one or two laboratories in the

world, one of them is in Moscow. The

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Moscow foreign spy service. What is

fascinating is not just was Vladimir

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Putin responsible? It is why he

wanted us to know he was

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responsible, because he left such a

massive calling card, and that has

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been really bothering cabinet

ministers in the last week.

Dia, we

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had from the Chief Medical Officer

who said traces of this nerve agent

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has been found in the restaurant

where Sergei Skripal and his

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daughter were eating and 500 people

were there at the same time and they

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should wash their clothes and clean

their possessions that were with

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them. There is a small rescue but

there is a risk. Frightening news

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like that is what drives home to

people why it matters this is

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happening in the UK.

Absolutely and

there are so many questions about

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this, even before we do want to who

was doing this. That's very

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important. This also questions about

how the whole thing has been

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handled, seven days, and they are

now telling these terrified

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residents to wash their clothes and

possessions. Is that going to be

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enough? What exactly is this agent?

If we see people in scary laboratory

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suits walking around, doing what

they need to do, a quarantine going

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on, is it enough to say go and wash

your clothes seven days later? The

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communication around it, I

understand it is sensitive, that I

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think it has been dire. Really quite

woeful. If I was living in Salisbury

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I would be very, very worried.

George, the UK Government, once the

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investigation has finished and they

decide whether this was a

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state-sponsored assassination, they

need to decide how to respond. All

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we have practically heard of so far

is some rubber mats might not go to

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the World Cup in Russia, presumably

will have to do come up with

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something better than that --

diplomats. What can we do that

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Russia will care about?

The pressure

from some Labour Party and

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Conservative MPs is to introduce a

version of the Magnitsky Act, which

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means it's easier to freeze the

assets of Russians suspected of

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human rights abuses or corruption,

and expel them, but Britain is

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severely limited and I think it's

worth asking the question why did

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Russia choose this moment to target

Britain? We are set to leave the

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European Union, huge burdens on

governments, stretching the

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government bandwidth to its limits,

and Donald Trump and the USA who we

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supposedly have a special

relationship with, is imposing

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tariffs on steel and has not made

any robust intervention over this,

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despite the fact he normally rushes

to tweet when there is a terrorist

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attack on British soil after making

unhelpful remarks. He has not been

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standing shoulder to shoulder with

Britain in this instance.

There has

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been a suggestion this should come

up at the next Nato summit in

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Brussels, and they could be looking

for some kind of coordinated

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response from international allies.

Is that likely?

It's difficult to

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see at the moment. Russia's strength

here is significant and Vladimir

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Putin, such a brazen act, clearly he

does not feel Britain has the

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capacity to respond. Last December,

when we were short of gas, the one

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country we turn to was Russia.

We

will be back to talk about the other

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stories during the programme.

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The poisoning of Sergei Skripal

and his daughter carries

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echoes of the murder

of Alexander Litvinenko,

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the ex KGB officer who died

after drinking tea laced

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with radioactive polonium 210

in a London hotel in 2006.

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And this morning, his widow,

Marina Litvinenko urged Theresa May

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to adopt American-style laws that

are tougher on Russia.

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You need to be very selective who

you are friends with. And when you

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allow people with money to come to

your country and make a business,

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you need to be sure what kind of

money these people try to bring to

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your country because very often this

money is stolen from Russian people

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and sometimes it is a very serious

crime behind it. I'm

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crime behind it. I'm absolutely

asking this question to unite this

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action already done in the United

States, in Europe. I think the UK

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has to do the same steps.

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Joining me now from Edinburgh

is the former Home and Foreign

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Secretary, Jack Straw.

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Thank you very much for joining us

this morning. Do you agree that the

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UK needs to introduce tougher laws,

the likes of which the US has?

I do

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think we should do this now. I think

have to take this very careful

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step-by-step way, so I think the

approach of Amber Rudd and her

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security minister, Ben Wallace, is

the right one. Jumping to

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conclusions in this situation is not

a sensible way to proceed. The other

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thing we have to think about very

carefully, when it comes to those

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who are saying something must be

done and if you are in government,

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you get this all the time, in

situations like this, something has

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got to be done, is what happens when

you have to get back to normality? I

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often reflect on the sanctions were

imposed to Zimbabwe for the

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different situation but there are

parallels. In retrospect, Robert

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Mugabe was a very bad man, but in

retrospect I often wonder if it was

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a sensible thing to do. In the end

we had to get the troops down again.

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It was very tricky so people need to

think very carefully indeed. This is

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on the assumption the Russian state

was behind this, which has not yet

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been approved or announced.

If we do

establish that and work on the

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presumption for now and I understand

your reservations, would President

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Putin care if we were to try and

institute some kind of sanctions or

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punishments or does it just increase

the siege mentality Russia is under

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threat from the rest of the world

which in many ways bolstered his

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position in advance of the elections

coming up soon?

If we were to do it

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unilaterally, just the UK, he

wouldn't careful stop with the EU,

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and more other major allies

including the USA, he might take

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notice but frankly, I think he

regarded as a medal if we were

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simply to do it by ourselves and he

knows that, post the collapse of the

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Berlin Wall and the Soviet Union in

the early 1990s, there is a huge

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amount of Russian money in the UK,

particularly in London, and a

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Magnitsky Act won't make that much

difference to the level of

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dependence of some very highly

respectable British London based

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financial institutions with Russian

money.

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With the Alexander Litvinenko case,

an enquiry two tiers to get to the

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bottom of what happened there, and

could only conclude that it was

0:15:010:15:07

probably orchestrated by the Russian

state. Can you take any sort of

0:15:070:15:11

action on the basis of something

probably being true?

People need to

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bear in mind the example of Iraq.

The evidence against Saddam Hussein

0:15:160:15:23

having and continuing to have

biological weapons was overwhelming.

0:15:230:15:27

The question came up in United

Nations Security Council

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resolutions, passed unanimously.

That is what Tony Blair and I used

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almost 15 years ago to persuade

people to go to war against Iraq,

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and it turned out to be completely

incorrect, so you've got to be

0:15:410:15:46

really careful. I have the scars

literally on my back in respect of

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this. In the heat of the moment,

with people in the House of Commons

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and the newspapers screeching,

something 's got to be done, being

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non-explicit about what... Moreover,

we shouldn't descend to the level of

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the criminal justice system in the

Russian Federation or other states

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like that. There are demands today

from some Conservatives to ban the

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Russia Today programme.

The Shadow

Chancellor said today that he

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doesn't think Labour MPs will be

appearing on there in the future.

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Will you do the same?

I have not

appeared on there for some time, but

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I will make a decision on my own

terms. We have to be careful about

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doing that in the absence of

evidence. Far better for Britain's

0:16:390:16:46

position in the world to have high

standards of probity. It's better to

0:16:460:16:51

bear in mind that well intentioned

people who do not lie at all,

0:16:510:16:56

including myself, and the House of

Commons by a huge majority, and

0:16:560:17:00

public opinion at the time, came to

the wrong decision with respect to

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whether or not Saddam Hussein still

had biological weapons on the basis

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of probabilities. That is the

difficulty here. People will of

0:17:100:17:14

course be very impatient indeed to

have a culprit here, and obviously

0:17:140:17:19

stacking it up on the basis of

circumstantial evidence, you can

0:17:190:17:23

make a very good case that it is the

Russian state, but we need a bit of

0:17:230:17:28

sobriety before we come to that

conclusion. Thank God that Amber

0:17:280:17:33

Rudd is the Home Secretary at the

moment. Someone else I could think

0:17:330:17:37

of in the British Cabinet, and she

is taking a very measured approach

0:17:370:17:43

to this.

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Here with me now is Pauline Neville

Jones, who was Security

0:17:460:17:49

and Counter Terrorism Minister under

David Cameron, when Theresa May

0:17:490:17:51

was Home Secretary.

0:17:510:17:53

That was fascinating, listening to

Jack Straw drawing parallels with

0:17:530:17:57

Iraq and what was supposedly the

evidence of chemical and biological

0:17:570:18:01

weapons there, saying we have to be

very careful about pointing the

0:18:010:18:05

finger of blame. With your security

experience, will we ever be able to

0:18:050:18:09

establish whether this was

sanctioned by the Russians?

I doubt

0:18:090:18:13

the Russian state will admit it was

involved. In order to get absolute

0:18:130:18:18

proof, what we needed with

Litvinenko was to have a trial.

0:18:180:18:23

There hasn't been a trial because

the Russians wouldn't cooperate. I

0:18:230:18:29

think it's right for the government

to be cautious about saying anything

0:18:290:18:32

now, because it mustn't be seen to

lead the investigation and therefore

0:18:320:18:37

damage it, but once we have

established a degree of probability

0:18:370:18:41

about the cause, that is the time

for action. I think the chances of

0:18:410:18:47

it not being connected with Russia

in some way are very low.

The means

0:18:470:18:50

would point to that, but what is the

motive? This is a retired agent

0:18:500:18:56

who's been living here for years.

Came as part of the spy as well. The

0:18:560:19:02

unwritten rule of espionage is that

you don't touch spies. What dangers

0:19:020:19:08

does he pose to the Russian regime?

I think we simply don't know the

0:19:080:19:16

full story. There's plenty of

evidence that the Russian regime is

0:19:160:19:20

pretty vicious. Even if he was part

of a swap, I don't think you can

0:19:200:19:25

exclude the fact that the Russian

state might decide to take action

0:19:250:19:29

against him.

Looking at pictures of

him and his daughter there. It's

0:19:290:19:35

difficult to see what threat they

posed to the Russian state. Is it

0:19:350:19:40

not worth considering the

possibility that they may have been

0:19:400:19:43

involved in something else that

isn't technically state faction --

0:19:430:19:52

state sanctioned?

If possible. It is

possible that the Mafia was

0:19:520:19:56

involved. The question is, what lay

behind the Mafia and where did the

0:19:560:20:00

nerve agent come from? Is it

possible to come from elsewhere than

0:20:000:20:06

a state laboratory? It's difficult

to imagine that the threat isn't

0:20:060:20:13

going to go back to Russia somehow.

Is it possible to take action

0:20:130:20:19

against wealthy Russian oligarchs

living in London, even if we change

0:20:190:20:23

the laws and bring in something like

the Magnitsky act? Mrs Litvinenko

0:20:230:20:30

got a letter from Theresa May, Home

Secretary at the time, saying that

0:20:300:20:34

we want to make sure nothing like

this happens again in the UK, and

0:20:340:20:38

now it has.

There are already powers

which the government can use. One of

0:20:380:20:43

the reasons why there was an

argument in the Commons the other

0:20:430:20:46

day about this so-called Magnitsky

amendment was that the government

0:20:460:20:52

said, we've got the powers. You may

say, we need to use these powers,

0:20:520:20:58

for example to investigate people

who have unexplained wealth. There

0:20:580:21:03

are things we can do.

These are

people who are not necessarily

0:21:030:21:08

linked to Putin and the regime, so

these are two distinct things.

They

0:21:080:21:14

are. You have to be careful how you

do this, and it requires resources.

0:21:140:21:19

This is a complicated job. Jack

Straw put his finger on it when he

0:21:190:21:23

said, we need to act in concert with

allies. This is the thing that the

0:21:230:21:28

Russians really are going to take

notice of. At the moment, it's fair

0:21:280:21:33

to say that although we are Aljaz

overtime, we have gradually

0:21:330:21:39

increased the pressure. With

sanctions, and Nato have increased

0:21:390:21:44

measures on its borders, but we

still have a great deal of

0:21:440:21:48

harassment from the Russians. They

are taking action in people's

0:21:480:21:52

politics. They are conducting cyber

attacks. We need to act as an

0:21:520:21:58

alliance so that the Russians really

do believe, and they seek positive

0:21:580:22:04

evidence of it, that action against

one is an action against all, and

0:22:040:22:09

collective action follows. We need

to have a strategy that brings

0:22:090:22:13

together what we do militarily, what

we do to protect our citizens in the

0:22:130:22:19

cyber sphere, what we do in

broadcasting, so we have an all

0:22:190:22:23

encompassing way of dealing with

Russia.

Thank you very much for

0:22:230:22:30

coming to talk to us.

0:22:300:22:33

The new Universities Minister,

Sam Gyimah, has set himself

0:22:330:22:35

a rather ambitious task.

0:22:350:22:36

Travelling up and down the country,

he's trying to attract students

0:22:360:22:38

to the Conservative Party.

0:22:380:22:39

With just one in five voters aged

between 18 and 24 voting Tory

0:22:390:22:43

in the 2017 election,

it's been jokingly called

0:22:430:22:44

his "punishment tour".

0:22:440:22:45

Our reporter Elizabeth Glinka

joined Sam on his visit

0:22:450:22:48

to Canterbury Christ Church

University.

0:22:480:22:49

And just to warn you,

her report contains flashing images.

0:22:490:22:57

Was that a youth quake?

0:23:080:23:10

Reports of a massive

increase in young voters at

0:23:100:23:12

the last general election may

have been exaggerated.

0:23:120:23:15

# I got the big size

12s on my feet...

0:23:150:23:18

Nationally, the turnout didn't

really change, but of

0:23:180:23:21

the young people that did vote,

a whopping 67% went for Labour.

0:23:210:23:27

And in a place like

Canterbury, where there

0:23:270:23:29

are more than 30,000 students,

it's thought that their votes played

0:23:290:23:32

a big part in the city

electing its first ever Labour MP.

0:23:320:23:37

Canterbury.

0:23:370:23:39

This has been Conservative

since World War I.

0:23:390:23:42

An extraordinary surge

in their share, up 20% here.

0:23:420:23:48

In general, everyone just

always seems to think

0:23:480:23:50

that the Conservatives are always

doing something wrong,

0:23:500:23:52

so even if you don't know

about the Conservatives,

0:23:520:23:54

all you hear, you just think

negative things about it.

0:23:540:23:56

Most of my friends always slander

the Conservative name, saying,

0:23:560:23:59

"It's only for middle-aged men who

want the benefit from themselves."

0:23:590:24:02

Do you think you have

to be quite brave to

0:24:020:24:04

say, "I am a Conservative?"

0:24:040:24:05

Yeah.

0:24:050:24:07

At first, I was like,

OK, I'm not going

0:24:070:24:09

to say anything to my friends,

because they will just kick off.

0:24:090:24:12

One of my flatmates was like,

"If you are not a Labour

0:24:120:24:14

voter, don't talk to me."

0:24:140:24:16

Labour had a lot of backing.

0:24:160:24:17

They had people like

AJ Tracey jumping on.

0:24:170:24:19

So once they see that,

everyone kind of runs

0:24:190:24:21

to it, like, let's vote Labour.

0:24:210:24:23

# Tracksuit grey, black,

blue

0:24:230:24:24

# I was just a hope-filled kid

like you...

0:24:240:24:26

AJ Tracey is just one of any number

of current music acts who publicly

0:24:260:24:29

endorsed the Labour Party

at the last general election,

0:24:290:24:32

helping to build a brand

which was apparently three times

0:24:320:24:35

more attractive to young voters.

0:24:350:24:39

To be fair, it's not

as if there was some sort of golden

0:24:390:24:42

era of Conservative hipsters,

but the figures suggest

0:24:420:24:45

things are getting worse.

0:24:450:24:49

And that's why the new Universities

Minister, Sam Gyimah,

0:24:490:24:52

is currently on a nationwide tour,

including here in Canterbury,

0:24:520:24:55

where he is attempting to

at least start a conversation

0:24:550:24:58

with a generation of voters who see

his party as old, male and stale.

0:24:580:25:01

Minister, this seems

a good time to jump in.

0:25:010:25:05

This is an incredibly difficult job,

isn't it, convincing young people

0:25:050:25:10

to vote Conservative?

0:25:100:25:12

We do have our work cut out for us,

but I think the first thing to do

0:25:120:25:16

is actually to be on campus.

0:25:160:25:18

If we allow Jeremy Corbyn to be

the only one on campus, then we only

0:25:180:25:22

have ourselves to blame.

0:25:220:25:24

Many students will say to you, well,

it's fine, you're having

0:25:240:25:27

a review on student fees

and many other things.

0:25:270:25:29

The Labour Party's promising us

they're going to get rid of fees.

0:25:290:25:32

We know what happens when you

promised something for free.

0:25:320:25:34

Numbers are going to be capped,

which means fewer people

0:25:340:25:37

going to university.

0:25:370:25:39

It's the well off that

are going to do it.

0:25:390:25:42

That's not what we're about.

0:25:420:25:43

I'm not really worried

about Jeremy Corbyn's free

0:25:430:25:45

for all offer, because it's not

realistic, and he can't deliver it,

0:25:450:25:48

and we only need to look

at countries like Scotland to see

0:25:480:25:51

that it's not going to work.

0:25:510:25:52

And what reaction are you expecting

when you head in there?

0:25:520:25:55

Well, I thought it might

be rowdy like PMQs.

0:25:550:25:57

I've no idea.

0:25:570:25:58

I haven't had the mob treatment

anywhere yet so far.

0:25:580:26:00

# Your face ain't big for my boot

0:26:000:26:02

# Kick up the yout

0:26:020:26:03

# I know that I kick up the yout...

0:26:030:26:07

There might not have been

a youth quake nationally,

0:26:070:26:09

but there was a bit of a youth quake

in Canterbury, and I want to listen

0:26:090:26:13

and I want to understand.

0:26:130:26:15

You know, we've had enough

of austerity politics.

0:26:150:26:16

We've had enough of student fees,

things like that, and we've seen

0:26:160:26:19

the NHS get less and less

funded over time.

0:26:190:26:23

And it's hard to

ignore those things.

0:26:230:26:25

You know, we are going to take

action against you.

0:26:250:26:27

# Bros in my ear saying

"Stormz, don't do it"

0:26:270:26:30

# Devil on my shoulder

I don't lack

0:26:300:26:32

# Hit 'em

with a crowbar, I don't scrap...

0:26:320:26:34

Well, lots of discussion,

some of it a bit feisty,

0:26:340:26:36

but did the Minister win any

hearts and minds?

0:26:360:26:38

He's really good at talking

to students, and he's

0:26:380:26:41

here to talk to everyone.

0:26:410:26:42

Would it make you feel differently

about voting Conservative?

0:26:420:26:44

I took from your comments that

you were not a Conservative voter.

0:26:440:26:48

Definitely not, but I did think

he made some good points,

0:26:480:26:51

and he was very measured.

0:26:510:26:52

It's quite clear that there

are a number of people here who have

0:26:520:26:55

been seduced by Jeremy Corbyn,

but I think the purpose of this

0:26:550:26:58

is to let them realise

that there is a Conservative voice,

0:26:580:27:01

there is a Conservative point

of view, and that as a minister

0:27:010:27:03

I am here to listen.

0:27:030:27:06

Clearly a smart man.

0:27:060:27:07

I'm not sure it's better

or worse to have a smart

0:27:070:27:11

Tory or a stupid Tory,

but he knew what he was

0:27:110:27:13

talking about, even though

I disagree with him.

0:27:130:27:16

Would it make you think twice

about voting Conservative?

0:27:160:27:18

No, I will never vote

Conservative in my life.

0:27:180:27:22

So as the sun sets in Canterbury,

there's still a long way to go.

0:27:220:27:28

And Universities Minister Sam

Gymiah joins me now.

0:27:280:27:36

A smart Tory. That is a compliment

from one of the students! Do you

0:27:360:27:42

think you persuaded many of them to

vote Tory?

The point of the exercise

0:27:420:27:47

was not to persuade people to vote

Conservative. As Universities

0:27:470:27:52

Minister, I'm very conscious that

students are investing a

0:27:520:27:55

considerable amount of money in

their education, so they should have

0:27:550:28:01

a voice in the corridors of power.

Gone are the days that the

0:28:010:28:04

Universities Minister 's spends time

with the chancellors and not the

0:28:040:28:09

students. Jeremy Corbyn has a voice

on the campus, and if we allow that

0:28:090:28:14

to continue, we only have ourselves

to blame. The starting point in the

0:28:140:28:18

process is listening and engaging,

rather than going in there to preach

0:28:180:28:22

to them about what their problems

and answers are.

You have a mountain

0:28:220:28:27

to climb with young people. Let's

have a look at the numbers. At the

0:28:270:28:32

last election, between 18 to

24-year-olds, 67% voted Labour.

0:28:320:28:38

Unless you can change those minds,

you have a generational problem with

0:28:380:28:45

voters, and you will not see

Conservative governments in the

0:28:450:28:48

future, unless people change their

minds.

What I am doing at the moment

0:28:480:28:52

is pressing, which is why the party

is beginning to engage with students

0:28:520:28:57

at this level. A number of things

have come up as I've travelled

0:28:570:29:00

around the country that we can

address. Austerity keeps coming up.

0:29:000:29:04

We stopped making the case for why

we had to reduce the deficit from

0:29:040:29:10

the extreme levels that we inherited

from the Labour Party. One man said

0:29:100:29:14

to me, all I have ever heard the

Conservatives talk

0:29:140:29:27

about is austerity. It must be your

ideology. That is clearly not the

0:29:280:29:30

case. It is a matter of necessity,

not ideology.

We have the spring

0:29:300:29:33

statement coming up next week. The

Chancellor has said this morning

0:29:330:29:36

that we are in a much better

financial position at the moment

0:29:360:29:39

then we have been, but it doesn't

sound like he's going to end

0:29:390:29:43

austerity. Would you encourage him

to do so?

This brings statement is

0:29:430:29:47

an update on the public finances.

But he is going to point further

0:29:470:29:52

ahead to the budget in the autumn,

and he doesn't seem to be talking

0:29:520:29:57

about the increased public spending

you think will attract people to the

0:29:570:30:01

Tories.

We are not going to say we

are going to return to discredited

0:30:010:30:06

economic policies of 40 years ago.

What he should be saying to young

0:30:060:30:10

people is that the balanced approach

that he is pursuing, in a world

0:30:100:30:15

where we have technological

challenge and a global market

0:30:150:30:19

economy, the Conservatives are

uniquely placed to deliver

0:30:190:30:23

prosperity for them. Another issue

that comes up is our motives. When

0:30:230:30:28

we talk about economic prosperity,

people feel it is for the few.

0:30:280:30:32

Sometimes I have to explain that the

top rate of tax has been higher

0:30:320:30:40

under the Conservatives, and that

the top 1% pay 20% of income tax.

0:30:400:30:44

They didn't know that. We need to

talk about -- we need to persuade

0:30:440:30:50

them that when we talk about

economic prosperity, it is their

0:30:500:30:52

future we are talking about.

0:30:520:30:58

You addressed tuition fees in the

film but look at maintenance grants

0:30:580:31:01

being cut by this government so the

poorer students to go to university

0:31:010:31:05

will lead with larger debt than

those from better off backgrounds.

0:31:050:31:08

When that is their experience right

now on campus, no wonder they keep

0:31:080:31:13

thinking you are looking after the

better off and not the

0:31:130:31:19

disadvantaged.

Canterbury has the

best proportion of students went

0:31:190:31:21

university for the first time in

their families. Many of those would

0:31:210:31:24

not be at university at all had we

pursue the Jeremy Corbyn policy.

0:31:240:31:33

Jeremy Corbyn is promising to

abolish tuition fees so that would

0:31:340:31:38

make it easier for students to go to

university.

Once you make university

0:31:380:31:42

free you can't have a current policy

we have which is that the numbers

0:31:420:31:45

who can go to university are capped.

At a time when the numbers were not

0:31:450:31:51

capped, our own history, very few

people went to university and mentor

0:31:510:31:55

very few poor people went

university. A consequence of the

0:31:550:32:00

Conservative policy is a lot of

disadvantaged people are giving to

0:32:000:32:03

university for the first time and we

have a student finance scheme where

0:32:030:32:07

you do not pay a penny as a first

burner unless you in over £25,000

0:32:070:32:13

and after 30 years, whatever you

have managed to pay, is written. I'm

0:32:130:32:17

not saying is perfect.

That very

system is replacing grants for

0:32:170:32:21

poorer students with loans. Why? If

you are so keen to get disadvantaged

0:32:210:32:28

students into universities, wide

takeaway maintenance grants?

There

0:32:280:32:32

is a review looking at the whole

system, but when many students

0:32:320:32:35

complain about the student finances,

they focus on accommodation.

0:32:350:32:39

Somewhere like London, landlords

want to get the years rent in

0:32:390:32:45

advance. That is a difficult

situation for them and the cost of

0:32:450:32:49

living issues, rather than assuming

we know...

There's an interest rate

0:32:490:32:55

on a student loan of over 6% which

is way in excess of what people are

0:32:550:33:00

borrowing on mortgages etc.

The cost

of living in University...

They must

0:33:000:33:07

be worried about it.

Whatever your

level of earnings, you pay 9% of

0:33:070:33:12

your income, which means higher rate

in graduates pay more to the system

0:33:120:33:16

but I also think to narrow the

debate on student fees, students

0:33:160:33:22

have a lot of interest, not all

students think student fees is their

0:33:220:33:26

big issue. Someone to see their

politicians care about making the

0:33:260:33:32

world a better place. What kind of

world they are going into, they will

0:33:320:33:36

get on the housing ladder, housing

is big issue for them but the

0:33:360:33:39

economy prospers, so I think that's

why you have got to listen and not

0:33:390:33:42

assume all students have the same

view and there is one answer that

0:33:420:33:46

deals with all the problems of every

18-21 -year-old.

Mental health keeps

0:33:460:33:50

cropping up. I'm sure the university

's lecturers strike came up as well.

0:33:500:33:56

Now students are paying £9,000 in

fees, they are consumers as well as

0:33:560:34:01

students, so should they get a

refund for the lessons they have not

0:34:010:34:04

been taught?

Universities do not pay

lecturers on the day they strike,

0:34:040:34:11

they should not pocket those funds,

but look at compensation for

0:34:110:34:15

students and there are real ways of

compensating students.

Would you

0:34:150:34:19

compel them to do that?

I'm not in a

position to compel them to do that.

0:34:190:34:25

There is the regulator for

university who has a wide-ranging

0:34:250:34:27

remit. I'm encouraged some

universities are taking this

0:34:270:34:33

seriously. Kings College London will

offer financial compensation. I

0:34:330:34:39

think they should look at this very

seriously. I am disappointed I am

0:34:390:34:43

seeing lots of petitions out there

from Durham University, a petition

0:34:430:34:47

of 5000 students, asking for

compensation. I want to university

0:34:470:34:53

to respond constructively, because

we are in the age of the student and

0:34:530:34:56

we are there to serve.

One quick

question, talking about Russia on

0:34:560:35:00

the programme so far this morning, a

story this morning in the papers

0:35:000:35:05

saying over £800 million has been

donated to the Tory party from

0:35:050:35:09

Russian link to donors since Theresa

May took over, even notice that you

0:35:090:35:14

wanted an arms length relationship.

Is that something that should be

0:35:140:35:17

discouraged in the future and should

the money be returned now?

To make a

0:35:170:35:22

donation to a political party in

this country you have to be a

0:35:220:35:25

citizen Dungannon

0:35:250:35:30

citizen Dungannon -- and betting

needs to be taken place. Modern

0:35:330:35:37

Britain is made up by people from

all sorts of places. Some groups of

0:35:370:35:44

people cannot participate in Aber

Democratic life to the fall, and we

0:35:440:35:46

have got to be clear, these are

British citizens from Russia. Not

0:35:460:35:51

the Kremlin donating to the

Conservative Party.

Of course not,

0:35:510:35:56

but there could be a question of

where those funds came from in the

0:35:560:36:00

first place for the wedding end up

on the front page of a Sunday

0:36:000:36:04

newspaper saying this much money has

been donated to the Conservative

0:36:040:36:07

Party, maybe it would be better to

think again where you receive your

0:36:070:36:11

large donations from?

It's not just

the letter of the law but vetting

0:36:110:36:15

should be thorough.

Sam Gyimah,

thank you very much for coming in to

0:36:150:36:22

talk to us.

0:36:220:36:23

It's coming up to 11.40.

0:36:230:36:24

You're watching

the Sunday Politics.

0:36:240:36:25

Still to come, we'll be

discussing the economy.

0:36:250:36:27

Is it time to end austerity?

0:36:270:36:29

First though, its time for

the Sunday Politics where you are.

0:36:290:36:33

Good morning and welcome

to Sunday Politics Scotland.

0:36:330:36:35

Coming up on the programme....

0:36:350:36:36

Smiles and glad hands

at the conference.

0:36:360:36:38

But behind the scenes,

how big a problem has

0:36:380:36:40

Scottish Labour got over

the single market?

0:36:400:36:42

I'll be asking their leader,

Richard Leonard, whether

0:36:420:36:44

Jeremy Corbyn's remarks

on immigration were xenophobic.

0:36:440:36:46

And the Scottish Youth Theatre

gets set to close.

0:36:460:36:50

I'll be asking Creative Scotland

if there's any chance

0:36:500:36:55

of an 11th-hour funding reprieve -

the answer appears

0:36:550:36:58

to be, yes, there is.

0:36:580:37:02

At the Scottish Labour Conference,

its new leader, Richard Leonard,

0:37:020:37:04

promised a fundamental change

in the Scottish economy and said

0:37:040:37:07

he would not only stop future

Private Finance Initiative deals,

0:37:070:37:09

but bring existing ones back

into the public sector.

0:37:090:37:13

But was he really threatening

to cancel contracts?

0:37:130:37:15

He also ran into a row over

a speech by Jeremy Corbyn

0:37:150:37:18

which Nicola Sturgeon and some

in the Labour Party itself said was

0:37:180:37:21

using the language of Nigel Farage.

0:37:210:37:23

Well, a little earlier

I spoke to Richard Leonard.

0:37:230:37:31

You said in your speech yesterday

that not only under you would do no

0:37:310:37:38

longer be any PFI contracts but you

wanted to bring existing ones in

0:37:380:37:42

house. How exactly do you propose to

do that?

Well, there are around 130

0:37:420:37:50

both PFI PPP and not-for-profit

contracts out there and they are in

0:37:500:37:59

large measure all different and it

would be a case of renegotiating

0:37:590:38:02

each one of them. Some of them

frankly are coming towards the end

0:38:020:38:06

of their lives, some are in

0:38:060:38:16

of their lives, some are in the

hands of companies who would

0:38:160:38:18

probably look forward to an

opportunity to get themselves out of

0:38:180:38:20

those contracts. So I think the

environment for negotiation is good

0:38:200:38:22

at the moment. Whilst I said in my

speech yesterday that under a future

0:38:220:38:25

Scottish Labour government, we would

not sign any new PFI deals or NPD

0:38:250:38:30

deals, I think there is action that

could be taken at the moment and we

0:38:300:38:34

have a debate tabled in the next few

days and the Scottish Parliament on

0:38:340:38:39

this whole question of public

infrastructure, hopefully we will

0:38:390:38:43

call for a review of the Scottish

Futures Trust.

To be clear, if I am

0:38:430:38:47

a contractor who has one of these

PFI contracts and I am listening to

0:38:470:38:52

you, I do not need to worry that you

will somehow break the contract?

0:38:520:38:58

This will only be if I am willing to

negotiate with you?

Well, it will be

0:38:580:39:05

a negotiation, absolutely, again, I

have said that there are priorities,

0:39:050:39:09

the priorities would be what you

might call the low hanging fruit of

0:39:090:39:13

those contracts coming to the end of

the alive, so let us look at how

0:39:130:39:17

they can excel and bringing that

into the public sector, but for

0:39:170:39:21

reasons that I am sure that you

understand, I am keen to see the

0:39:210:39:24

removal of private contractors from

the National Health Service. So

0:39:240:39:28

where did our facilities and

management companies who are

0:39:280:39:33

currently delivering services in our

hospitals, I would like to see the

0:39:330:39:37

contracts brought out as a matter of

urgency.

But if I am one of these

0:39:370:39:41

contractors and I do not want to

negotiate with you and I have a

0:39:410:39:44

contract and I want to stick to

that, I would be allowed to do that?

0:39:440:39:52

Well, the point of entering into a

negotiation is to try to find a

0:39:520:39:56

settlement.

What if I do not want to

negotiate and I want to settle with

0:39:560:40:00

my current contract?

Well, in the

commercial world, my experience of

0:40:000:40:07

over 20 years as a trade union

negotiator, it is that in the end

0:40:070:40:14

people are prepared to reach

settlements and to go through a

0:40:140:40:17

negotiation process to find that. So

I would be very surprised if there

0:40:170:40:21

were any contractors involved in

delivering public services in

0:40:210:40:24

Scotland that would not be at least

open to a conversation about how an

0:40:240:40:29

earlier termination of the contract

could be reached.

Sorry, why? If I

0:40:290:40:34

had a contract and I built a PFI

hospital or a bold and I have lots

0:40:340:40:39

of money coming in from it and for

the next ten years, I am telling you

0:40:390:40:43

I am happy with this, thank you, I

am making a lot of money out of it.

0:40:430:40:50

Yes, but Gordon, this is in the

context of seeing the collapse of

0:40:500:40:53

Carillion, one of the biggest

providers of public contracts in the

0:40:530:40:58

public realm, not just in Scotland,

but throughout the UK. There are

0:40:580:41:02

other major players in that field

whose share prices have dropped.

0:41:020:41:06

Others are giving up profit

warnings, so I think that the

0:41:060:41:10

climate is right, to start opening

up negotiations with these

0:41:100:41:13

companies. It is

0:41:130:41:19

companies. It is a good time to have

this conversation.

I am interested

0:41:200:41:22

in how much of your rhetoric

yesterday involved forcing people to

0:41:220:41:25

do things. In that one that is up

for negotiation. You also spoke

0:41:250:41:28

about local authority pension funds

and getting them involved in

0:41:280:41:32

financing council houses. Again,

presumably, this is a good idea that

0:41:320:41:36

you would like to tell them, you

cannot mandate local authority

0:41:360:41:39

pension funds to do that?

No, local

authority pension schemes are

0:41:390:41:45

managed by the trustees of those

schemes.

Exactly.

But in the end

0:41:450:41:52

they are accountable to the pension

holders, to the employees, two

0:41:520:41:56

people contributing to those

schemes. To the employers

0:41:560:42:00

contributing to those schemes

including local authorities. So I

0:42:000:42:07

think it is a perfectly sensible

proposition to put the local

0:42:070:42:09

authorities, to employers, who are

investing in these pension schemes,

0:42:090:42:13

to say, instead of putting money

into stock San Siro the Far East,

0:42:130:42:17

why do we not look at how we can

reinvest in our local economies? Let

0:42:170:42:22

us look at AB of generating steady

income streams through investment in

0:42:220:42:25

public housing. Also meeting the

public need as well.

My point is

0:42:250:42:33

about forcing people to do things.

Trustees of a pension fund might

0:42:330:42:40

tell you, sorry, these derivatives

that we are investing in, we think

0:42:400:42:43

these are better deal for our

pension fund members and we hear

0:42:430:42:47

what you are telling us about

council houses but no thank you.

0:42:470:42:49

There is nothing you can do about

that?

My school of Democratic

0:42:490:42:59

Socialism is founded on the

principle of persuasion and not

0:42:590:43:01

coercion. So I am not suggesting

that we would seize assets or force

0:43:010:43:03

people to do things, I am telling

you that we would look at ways of

0:43:030:43:07

bringing about a change in the

culture, and behaviour and a change

0:43:070:43:11

in practice. And I think it is

eminently sensible to open up

0:43:110:43:17

conversations and there are examples

already of pension funds, Local

0:43:170:43:22

Government Pension Scheme is used to

invest in local infrastructure. I

0:43:220:43:26

think Manchester Council, Islington

Council and even Falkirk Council in

0:43:260:43:30

Scotland have looked at this as a

possible way forward.

It is an idea

0:43:300:43:36

whose time has come. When Jeremy

Corbyn at your party conference

0:43:360:43:39

talked about wanting to be outside

the single market because he wanted

0:43:390:43:44

to prevent employers from being able

to import cheap agency labour to

0:43:440:43:48

undercut the Labour Party -- labour

in this country, Nicola Sturgeon,

0:43:480:43:55

the First Minister said that he was

using the sort of language that she

0:43:550:44:00

is more used to hearing from Nigel

Farage, that sentiment has been

0:44:000:44:03

echoed today by former Secretary of

State for Scotland, sorry, Shadow

0:44:030:44:10

Secretary of State for Scotland, Ian

Murray, and your former Deputy

0:44:100:44:13

Leader, they all have a point, do

they not?

I think that they are

0:44:130:44:18

wrong, I recognise that emotions in

this debate are very high and that

0:44:180:44:24

people have very strong views, about

what they would like to see the

0:44:240:44:27

future shape of both Scotland and

the UK was mad relationship with the

0:44:270:44:31

European Union look like after

Brexit, but I just think that it is

0:44:310:44:34

wrong to try to equate anything that

Jeremy

0:44:340:44:41

Jeremy Corbyn has said with Nigel

Farage. Why? Because the truth of

0:44:430:44:46

the matter is that Jeremy Corbyn

throughout his entire life is one of

0:44:460:44:49

the most anti-racist campaigners I

have known, he has always stuck for

0:44:490:44:51

workers' rights and represents one

of the most multicultural

0:44:510:44:55

constituencies with the large amount

of immigration in that of any within

0:44:550:44:58

the entire UK. To suggest that the

Jeremy Corbyn is in anyway looking

0:44:580:45:04

towards a blog to any access to the

single market because of what it

0:45:040:45:09

might do to migration is false.

But

that is precisely what he said. Let

0:45:090:45:16

me read you what he said, one of the

reasons for being outside the single

0:45:160:45:21

market was to prevent employers

being able to import cheap agency

0:45:210:45:25

labour to undercut existing pain

conditions in the name of free

0:45:250:45:29

market orthodoxy and the point that

the Nicola Sturgeon and Kezia

0:45:290:45:32

Dugdale and Ian Murray would make

about that is that the problem with

0:45:320:45:36

undercutting pay is with the

practices of employers in this

0:45:360:45:41

country, who also sometimes undercut

pee and do not pay the minimum wage

0:45:410:45:45

to indigenous British workers. It

has nothing to do with immigration

0:45:450:45:48

from Europe in the manner that

Jeremy Corbyn has a -- suggest the

0:45:480:45:52

debtors because of cheap labour from

Europe.

If you are suggesting that

0:45:520:45:56

the problem in that scenario is with

the employer, I would agree with you

0:45:560:46:01

because it is the employer who is

doubly exploiting workers in that

0:46:010:46:04

situation. But there is a point and

it has been in the Labour Party

0:46:040:46:08

manifesto in the last two elections

that we would like to see a practice

0:46:080:46:12

where UK

0:46:120:46:20

where UK employers deliberately go

out to source labour from parts of

0:46:200:46:24

the European Union in order to bring

them in on a less than going rate

0:46:240:46:27

basis. We should be arguing for all

kinds of the trade union going rate

0:46:270:46:30

in these industries and that is

extremely important, fundamental

0:46:300:46:32

principle of the trade union

movement and the Labour Party.

That

0:46:320:46:37

is what you implement in this

country, you do not do it like you

0:46:370:46:41

are suggesting, the connection with

the single market is completely

0:46:410:46:45

irrelevant in this case.

I have

watched all of my life against the

0:46:450:46:52

exploitation of workers and against

the double exploitation of workers,

0:46:520:46:56

expressed are those who are migrant

workers that are often brought in in

0:46:560:47:01

order to be paid a lesser rate than

the going rate for local workers. It

0:47:010:47:06

is about making sure that people

have equality of treatment,

0:47:060:47:09

something I have walked for all of

my adult life and that Jeremy Corbyn

0:47:090:47:15

has campaigned for as well.

Are you

not embarrassed about this? Surely

0:47:150:47:19

from the point of view of the Labour

Party, the idea that a party with

0:47:190:47:26

your international traditions can be

criticised for parochialism and

0:47:260:47:28

xenophobia by Scottish

Nationalists... Anyon, things have

0:47:280:47:34

come to a pretty pass, have they

not?

Scottish Nationalists hurl all

0:47:340:47:39

kind of insults at the Scottish

Labour Party, past, present and no

0:47:390:47:42

doubt future, but I do not pay too

much credence to the allegations

0:47:420:47:47

that have been made. I think it is a

cheap stunt to try to score a party

0:47:470:47:53

political points around what is a

very serious issue, because Brexit,

0:47:530:47:57

no matter what you think of single

market membership, Brexit is a

0:47:570:48:03

hugely important political challenge

that we all this and I would have

0:48:030:48:05

thought that over the course of the

last few weeks we have demonstrated

0:48:050:48:09

the importance of cross-party

working within the Scottish

0:48:090:48:11

Parliament to ensure that the

Continuity Bill is past.

We are

0:48:110:48:17

running out of time, on the single

market, if you are like the majority

0:48:170:48:23

possibly of the Scottish public that

think it is important to stay within

0:48:230:48:27

the single market, many young people

believe that is the case, and

0:48:270:48:30

probably a majority of your own

party think it is important to

0:48:300:48:33

remain in the single market, if

there is a general election shortly,

0:48:330:48:37

which is what both you and Jeremy

Corbyn would like, it issued advice

0:48:370:48:40

to be that if you want to remain in

the single market, fought Scottish

0:48:400:48:45

Nationalists or Lib Dem?

No, because

the SNP want to take us out of the

0:48:450:48:50

UK single market, which is worth

four times as many jobs as the

0:48:500:48:54

European Union single market is the

Scottish economy. So I do not think

0:48:540:48:58

voting for the SNP would solve any

problems whatsoever.

What about

0:48:580:49:02

Liberal Democrat?

I do not think

many people would consider the

0:49:020:49:07

Liberal Democrats are on the verge

of forming a UK Government.

But it

0:49:070:49:12

is that choice that must be made. If

I vote for the Labour Party I am

0:49:120:49:17

voting to come out of the single

market.

Gordon, the SNP can never

0:49:170:49:22

form a UK Government, the Lib Dems

do not look like they are going to

0:49:220:49:26

form one any time now. If people

would like to see a change in this

0:49:260:49:29

country, they

0:49:290:49:34

country, they must abort the Labour

Party in. But a vote for the Labour

0:49:350:49:40

Party is a vote to be the single

market. No. We will debate the

0:49:400:49:44

proposition that the conference this

morning which will include Keir

0:49:440:49:46

Starmer's six tests which include

how we can reclaim the benefits of

0:49:460:49:51

the single market and that is

broader Labour Party stands.

Richard

0:49:510:49:57

Leonard, thank you very much, we

will have to leave it there.

Thank

0:49:570:50:00

you, God, thank you so much. --

thank you Gordon.

0:50:000:50:06

Over the past 40 years,

The Scottish Youth Theatre has been

0:50:060:50:09

responsible for kick-starting

the careers of many young actors

0:50:090:50:11

which have gone on to huge success,

such as Karen Gillan,

0:50:110:50:13

Kate Dickie and Gerard Butler.

0:50:130:50:15

But this week, the organisation

announced its imminent closure,

0:50:150:50:17

after failing to secure regular

funding from the arts

0:50:170:50:19

agency, Creative Scotland.

0:50:190:50:20

A campaign's been launched to keep

the youth theatre open.

0:50:200:50:23

At the same time, there have

been questions about

0:50:230:50:24

the funding decision.

0:50:240:50:25

In a moment we'll hear from the boss

of Creative Scotland, but first,

0:50:250:50:29

Andrew Black reports on what's been

a tense week for

0:50:290:50:31

the arts in Scotland.

0:50:310:50:39

Add these Scottish Youth Theatre's

based in Glasgow, young actors are

0:50:450:50:50

walking on a performance based on

the theme of taking audacious steps.

0:50:500:50:54

These performers been working as a

part of the year Theatre's national

0:50:540:50:58

ensemble, which will tour Scotland

in the summer. As things stand, it

0:50:580:51:03

could be the last production it ever

puts on. For these performance, it

0:51:030:51:07

is vital the Youth Theatre stays

open.

There are rather youth

0:51:070:51:14

theatres, but there aren't ones that

can say they are Scotland's youth

0:51:140:51:17

Theatre. I've worked with people

from as far afield as Orkney and

0:51:170:51:26

Shetland and Inverness and Dumfries,

it is encompassing of everyone in

0:51:260:51:29

Scotland.

What SYT does is provide

extraordinary support for young

0:51:290:51:36

people who are not just going to be

actors, but support staff as well.

0:51:360:51:43

The bosses say it may close this

summer. A third of its budget is

0:51:430:51:52

provided but limited funds means it

may not be able to support the Youth

0:51:520:51:56

Theatre. One way it hopes to

continue is through securing direct

0:51:560:52:01

funding as part of national company

status for the Youth Theatre.

Were

0:52:010:52:06

not looking for a simple hand-out.

We want to be strategic with this.

0:52:060:52:09

We have a way to go to court weird

that title, but we're absolutely a

0:52:090:52:16

day for that. I just hope there is

enough of a conversation that can

0:52:160:52:21

get us somewhere quickly, because

time is not on our side.

Actress

0:52:210:52:29

Kate Dickie is one of several

international stars forgot how had

0:52:290:52:33

to make Scottish Youth Theatre.

I

feel we have to fight to keep SYT

0:52:330:52:39

going. It offers something unique.

Unique to our country and to bring

0:52:390:52:47

any kids and young people from all

over to work together and put on

0:52:470:52:52

plays, not just acting, directing,

writing -

0:52:520:52:56

it keeps that pathway open for our

young people.

The theatre has had

0:52:560:53:01

some good news -

and entrepreneur has put up cash to

0:53:010:53:05

allow the year theatre as Mike

national ensemble to tour in the

0:53:050:53:08

summer.

I spent time with the

ensemble this week, these are young

0:53:080:53:16

kids ranging from 13 upwards. The

immediate thing you notice is their

0:53:160:53:21

confidence. It is bubbling out of

them. Big ten sing, they can dance,

0:53:210:53:27

they can do anything. Just at the

drop of a hat, at an age where I

0:53:270:53:34

would've run a from something like

that. You can see that plays a huge

0:53:340:53:39

role in their own self-esteem and

confidence.

It has been a tense time

0:53:390:53:46

at the Scottish Youth Theatre, its

leaders are hoping to agree a

0:53:460:53:50

long-term future solution when they

meet the Scottish Government next

0:53:500:53:55

week. Meanwhile, greater Scotland

says it is working with the theatre

0:53:550:53:57

and other funding options. --

Creative Scotland says it is working

0:53:570:54:02

with the Theatre.

0:54:020:54:07

I am joined by Janet Archer, the

chief executive Creative Scotland.

0:54:070:54:11

Why did you stop their money?

0:54:110:54:16

They made an application last year

alongside 184 other organisations

0:54:160:54:19

for a pot of money which was about

£33 million a year. We weren't able

0:54:190:54:29

to find all the applications.

But

waiting to fund then?

Obviously, I

0:54:290:54:37

can't go into the detail of the

application, what I can say is I had

0:54:370:54:42

a good conversation with Jacky

Hardacre on Friday, she told me she

0:54:420:54:46

is not asking for a reversal of the

decision we made about regular

0:54:460:54:49

funding. We have been talking to

Scottish Youth Theatre about other

0:54:490:54:54

options in terms of Creative

Scotland funding and we will

0:54:540:54:55

continue to do that.

So they are not

now asking for the money?

Scottish

0:54:550:55:02

Youth Theatre is asking for funding,

they have accepted that regular

0:55:020:55:06

funding decisions have been made, so

were talking about project funding,

0:55:060:55:10

a different programme that we run.

We find 121 organisations through

0:55:100:55:15

regular funding. We funded last year

321 organisations through project

0:55:150:55:22

funding, the type of funding we are

talking about now. It is a different

0:55:220:55:25

form of funding, not the same

amounts, but can apply for up to two

0:55:250:55:32

years' funding. For more than one

project, and it is flexible, you

0:55:320:55:37

don't have to wait for a deadline,

in the wake that you have with

0:55:370:55:41

regular funding.

Silica get some of

this project funding, perhaps?

Is

0:55:410:55:46

because an application, they could.

-- if they put in an application,

0:55:460:55:53

they could. It helps if they have

partners on board. With regular

0:55:530:55:59

funding, Creative Scotland is about

22% of the overall mix, so there is

0:55:590:56:04

a range of other backers and

supporters. It Scottish Youth

0:56:040:56:09

Theatre is able to galvanise support

from other places and the master us

0:56:090:56:13

for a funding application of a

different kind -- come to us for an

0:56:130:56:19

application of a different kind...

The point of regular funding as it

0:56:190:56:24

helps an organisation plan ahead

over a number of years. You're

0:56:240:56:26

simply can't do that?

You can apply

for up to two years through project

0:56:260:56:35

funding. It's not the same as

regular funding.

What kind of money

0:56:350:56:39

were talking about? They £200,000,

their budget is around 600,000 a

0:56:390:56:45

year. I were talking about much less

than that with project funding?

The

0:56:450:56:52

guidelines say you can apply for up

to £200,000 or 150 with

0:56:520:56:58

permission...

Is that per annum or

per project?

Per project, but some

0:56:580:57:06

organisations have managed to work

project funding in a way that helps

0:57:060:57:11

them the more flexible.

To be clear,

what you seem to be suggesting is

0:57:110:57:18

that if they put an application for

project funding, they could in

0:57:180:57:22

theory end up with the same matter

money they got out of regular

0:57:220:57:25

funding?

That is possible. It is

under huge pressure, so we are only

0:57:250:57:31

able to fund one in three of

applications that come in. However

0:57:310:57:37

there is a possibility that Scottish

Youth Theatre good apply for project

0:57:370:57:41

funding and be successful.

I still

don't quite understand the widely

0:57:410:57:46

can get regular funding? I take your

point that you have a lot of

0:57:460:57:53

applications, a but this is a

long-standing organisation that has

0:57:530:57:58

been successful, why did you decide

now that you couldn't continue to

0:57:580:58:02

fund them on a regular basis?

Obviously, we had to make decisions

0:58:020:58:07

based on the application were

received at the time, which was last

0:58:070:58:12

April. We had more applications...

The implication is that the

0:58:120:58:15

applications from people who got

money had more merit?

We base our

0:58:150:58:21

decisions based on the merit of the

applications we received. We also

0:58:210:58:27

wanted to extend opportunity for

audiences and people across Scotland

0:58:270:58:30

to be able to access the range of

art forms and companies of different

0:58:300:58:38

sizes across the country. So we had

to look at the applications that

0:58:380:58:44

came into us. We assess them on

their strengths of artistic content

0:58:440:58:50

and management validity. Some of the

others were better, yes. When

0:58:500:59:00

organisations are not successful,

that is the case.

One of the options

0:59:000:59:07

under discussion is the idea of

becoming a national company, which

0:59:070:59:11

is a technical designation which

means your money would not come from

0:59:110:59:14

you at Creative Scotland, rather

directly from the Scottish

0:59:140:59:18

Government. Do you think it's a good

idea for them to get that statist?

0:59:180:59:26

That's for the Government to

consider, I don't think it is

0:59:260:59:31

appropriate for me to comment on

that just now.

But and might be

0:59:310:59:34

helpful to then if you were to say

you supported that?

We're

0:59:340:59:44

disappointed they didn't talk to us

about this subject, because we are

0:59:440:59:51

in dialogue with them until a few

days ago and having what we thought

0:59:510:59:57

were productive conversations and

relations to options around funding

0:59:571:00:01

elsewhere.

Are using that if they

told you they might have to close

1:00:011:00:05

down, you would have given them some

money?

We will continue the

1:00:051:00:12

conversations around alternative

funding, not just from Creative

1:00:121:00:16

Scotland, because we are only one

part of the mix. I think at some for

1:00:161:00:20

everyone to recognise that a our

funding in the overall mix is 22%.

1:00:201:00:29

Can you perhaps not give a

guarantee, but some sort of

1:00:291:00:33

guarantee, do you think that between

yourself and the other people you've

1:00:331:00:38

been talking about getting involved

in this, perhaps, you can stop this

1:00:381:00:44

organisation having to close in

July, as they say they may have

1:00:441:00:46

today?

We have been having serious

conversations about options with

1:00:461:00:52

Scottish Youth Theatre, we as a

normalisation understand Youth

1:00:521:01:00

Theatre very well, I started my own

career at the Welsh Youth Theatre,

1:01:001:01:06

we would hope everyone with a stake

in Scottish Youth Theatre's future

1:01:061:01:10

to come forward. They have a

magnificent voice in support across

1:01:101:01:17

the country.

We have to leave it

there. Thank you for coming in this

1:01:171:01:23

morning.

Thank you.

1:01:231:01:31

To explore the future

of the Scottish Youth Theatre

1:01:311:01:33

a little further, I'm joined now

by Joan McAlpine MSP,

1:01:331:01:36

who's the convener of

Holyrood's Culture Committee.

1:01:361:01:38

First, I want is BT about Richard

Leonard. Nicola Sturgeon said he had

1:01:381:01:44

-- Nicola Sturgeon said Jeremy

Corbyn had used language that

1:01:441:01:50

sounded like Nigel Farage, which was

flatly rejected by Richard Leonard?

1:01:501:01:56

I think it was disappointing Richard

Leonard didn't condemn it, because

1:01:561:01:59

that type of language used by Nigel

Farage and others whips up

1:01:591:02:05

aggression towards immigrants as we

have seen that since the Brexit

1:02:051:02:07

vote. I

1:02:071:02:12

vote. I think it's our role as

responsible politicians to speak

1:02:131:02:15

against that. I agree that

immigrants have contributed

1:02:151:02:21

enormously to this country and

politicians in the Labour Party

1:02:211:02:24

should be doing the same thing.

As a

reason for staying outside the

1:02:241:02:29

single market, you will buy it?

It

is absurd. Richard Leonard talks

1:02:291:02:34

about his credentials as a trade

unionist, trade unions once us to

1:02:341:02:42

stay in the single market. In the

SNP, we want powers to come to the

1:02:421:02:50

Scottish Parliament but the Scottish

Labour Party didn't support us in

1:02:501:02:56

that.

OK, Scottish Youth Theatre,

you heard Janet Archer, the message

1:02:561:03:01

seems to be that we might well come

up with money?

I think this exposes

1:03:011:03:08

a real problem with creative

Scotland's regular funding process.

1:03:081:03:14

A couple of weeks ago, my committee

had Janet Archer in the chair in

1:03:141:03:21

front of the test act and were

dissatisfied with the answers given

1:03:211:03:25

on how they make those decisions.

This isn't the first decision they

1:03:251:03:28

have reversed. Although they are not

talking about reversing this

1:03:281:03:32

particular decision, Ducati the

reverse decisions a couple of weeks

1:03:321:03:37

ago as a result of outcry, and they

admitted before my committee the

1:03:371:03:40

process needed reviewed and they

came and gave an apology. So you

1:03:401:03:46

then have to look at organisations

like Scottish Youth Theatre who were

1:03:461:03:50

not successful in that process that

Janet Archer has already said was

1:03:501:03:56

flawed, no wonder they are upset.

She says they spoke to him and they

1:03:561:04:01

no longer want the regular funding?

They said they had been in dialogue

1:04:011:04:07

with Creative Scotland since the

decision was made, but I have been

1:04:071:04:12

speaking to the Scottish Youth

Theatre and they told me they had

1:04:121:04:16

had one meeting with Creative

Scotland when they were told there

1:04:161:04:23

is open project funding and nothing

else. This is a process that takes

1:04:231:04:27

time. Other companies that missed

out on regular funding were offered

1:04:271:04:31

transitional funding. Scottish Youth

Theatre were not, because they

1:04:311:04:36

weren't previously regularly funded

organisation. They had been here

1:04:361:04:40

before, Creative Scotland four years

ago wouldn't fund the Scottish Youth

1:04:401:04:44

Theatre and the Scottish Government

had to come in then. I know the

1:04:441:04:48

Scottish Government is working hard

on getting something together,

1:04:481:04:52

because I don't think you can treat

this organisation this in way as

1:04:521:04:57

others. This is our National Youth

Theatre. The arts Council of England

1:04:571:05:02

find a National Youth Theatre. Janet

mentioned her background in Wales.

1:05:021:05:11

If this was something going on in

Scottish Ballet or opera, you

1:05:111:05:14

wouldn't close them down, you would

find a way to fix it.

That brings up

1:05:141:05:20

another point, the companies you've

mentioned, these so-called national

1:05:201:05:26

companies, they're directly funded

by the Government, not Creative

1:05:261:05:28

Scotland. One idea is that the

Scottish Youth Theatre could become

1:05:281:05:32

a national company. The woman who

runs it said that she had a way to

1:05:321:05:37

go to get to that stage, do you

think that would be a good idea?

I

1:05:371:05:41

think that was honest of Jacky. We

have a number of national companies,

1:05:411:05:48

one particular dance company did get

regular funding from Creative

1:05:481:05:52

Scotland, and there are used for

choirs who get that funding as well.

1:05:521:05:58

You would have to look at the

National youth performing companies

1:05:581:06:01

as a whole. The Government has a

great strategy for developing a

1:06:011:06:06

youth arts and it is very much about

giving access to everyone and

1:06:061:06:10

setting up youth hugs all over the

country. There is another strand,

1:06:101:06:18

which is your elite youth performing

companies, if you like, of your most

1:06:181:06:22

talented youngsters. Perhaps we need

to think a little differently about

1:06:221:06:26

that. In sports, we want all young

people to have access to sports,

1:06:261:06:32

Akashi we agree there are very

talented youngsters who could go on

1:06:321:06:36

medal at Olympic Games, and they

have additional investment. I think

1:06:361:06:41

that is the wager be

thank you very

much.

1:06:411:06:46

Now it's time to look back

over events and forwards

1:06:461:06:48

to the week ahead.

1:06:481:06:51

I'm joined now by a comedian who's

also a political commentator

1:06:511:06:54

and former political adviser

to senior Labour politicians,

1:06:541:06:56

Ayesha Hazarika.

1:06:561:06:57

And alongside her,

the political editor

1:06:571:06:59

of the Daily Record,

David Clegg.

1:06:591:07:00

Welcome both.

1:07:001:07:07

Richard Leonard, these remarks that

were very controversial that Jeremy

1:07:071:07:12

Corbyn made and have been criticised

by Nicola Sturgeon and by Ian Murray

1:07:121:07:16

and Kezia Dugdale, what do you make

of that? Do the Labour Party need to

1:07:161:07:21

tread carefully?

Yes, I think so. I

worry that this was more a badly

1:07:211:07:29

written line in the speech. I am not

sure that some of the context that

1:07:291:07:33

has been taken from it is correct.

Jeremy Corbyn has spoken in the past

1:07:331:07:38

about the way that immigration and

freedom of movement could

1:07:381:07:41

potentially lower wages. Is there

any evidence for that, it is

1:07:411:07:49

difficult to pinpoint Evra is. But

that is a different discussion to

1:07:491:07:51

suggest that he does not want

migrants coming in.

That is a

1:07:511:07:59

different issue. What do you make of

it?

Do you agree with David that the

1:07:591:08:04

language could have been different?

I was surprised that Jeremy Corbyn

1:08:041:08:06

went there. It was clumsy, whenever

the Labour Party goes into talking

1:08:061:08:11

about immigration, it is difficult.

Yes, Gordon Brown talking about

1:08:111:08:16

British jobs for British workers.

We

had an immigration mug that went

1:08:161:08:21

down badly at the 2015 campaign. To

take a step back, immigration was a

1:08:211:08:26

huge issue in terms of the Brexit

vote and was Labour Party members

1:08:261:08:34

are comfortable with it or not, at

some point we will have the article

1:08:341:08:37

it a policy on immigration. The idea

of equating Jeremy Corbyn to Nigel

1:08:371:08:41

Farage is ridiculous. The criticism

against them was that he was someone

1:08:411:08:46

who wanted open borders, Nigel

Farage has said that people from

1:08:461:08:48

other countries are ripping off our

NHS, he said that people from other

1:08:481:08:57

countries are bringing diseases and

things like that.

Arguably, even

1:08:571:08:59

from inside the Labour Party,

presumably, the argument would be

1:08:591:09:01

that that kind of language that

Jeremy Corbyn used is giving the

1:09:011:09:05

opportunity to other organisations,

quality the SNP of the Lib Dems are

1:09:051:09:09

the Conservatives, to suggest

otherwise. This is dog resting.

Any

1:09:091:09:15

time you talk about immigration

there is that danger. What he said

1:09:151:09:18

was about trying to stamp out

exploitation which we would all

1:09:181:09:21

agree with. There has been a list

out this week of companies in the UK

1:09:211:09:26

that are not paying the minimum wage

and many staff that are not getting

1:09:261:09:30

that the minimum wage are migrants.

I say this as the daughter of

1:09:301:09:34

immigrants, you have to protect

everyone across the piece.

1:09:341:09:41

everyone across the piece. But what

I also think is happening is

1:09:421:09:45

politics within the Labour Party.

David, on that, if this fact

1:09:451:09:48

becoming this conference that one

sentence or half a sentence, a

1:09:481:09:52

surrogate for a division of the

single market?

I think the single

1:09:521:09:57

market is a surrogate for a wider

division. The hard left and the

1:09:571:10:02

moderates. On immigration, a final

point, it is a failure of all the

1:10:021:10:07

political parties that they have not

made the case for immigration, they

1:10:071:10:10

have been scared about what voters

think on this and they have been

1:10:101:10:14

hesitant to actually suggest that

immigration could be great for the

1:10:141:10:17

country and this is why. It leads to

problems when you talk about that

1:10:171:10:21

issue. On the wider point of the

single market we have seen this big

1:10:211:10:26

bunfight in the last two days at the

Scottish Labour Party Conference

1:10:261:10:29

about other this morning there would

be a vote on the single market or

1:10:291:10:34

not and the immigration issue plays

into that but it is about a wider

1:10:341:10:37

split in the party which is between

supporters of Jeremy Corbyn and

1:10:371:10:44

moderates. The idea that the hard

left suddenly is not for the single

1:10:441:10:47

market and the moderates are all for

it, they are mapping themselves onto

1:10:471:10:50

this division based on a wider

split.

But there is the issue of how

1:10:501:10:58

radical Richard Leonard and Jeremy

Corbyn really are. That was my point

1:10:581:11:00

in asking Richard Leonard about PFI

contracts, because it sounded like a

1:11:001:11:08

revolutionist speech! It turns out

all he really means was that we will

1:11:081:11:11

have a chat with these companies and

we might ask them to the negotiate

1:11:111:11:19

but there's not much that they can

do about it.

There are some

1:11:191:11:22

explosive headlines and then when

you drill down to it, it is being

1:11:221:11:25

dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

What is interesting is that Jeremy

1:11:251:11:28

Corbyn gets elected as this

terrifying sort of radical, and as

1:11:281:11:32

he is doing better and better than

the polls, and that the last general

1:11:321:11:36

election, in some ways, you find

that the closer they get to power or

1:11:361:11:40

the perception of power, they are

starting to moderate their views and

1:11:401:11:44

try to find some compromises. I

think that is interesting politics.

1:11:441:11:48

You could argue that as the old

politics rather than the new

1:11:481:11:53

politics. Remember, Jeremy Corbyn

went into the last general election

1:11:531:11:57

campaign having campaigned against

Trident his whole adult life,

1:11:571:12:00

compromising and suggesting they

would put the renewal of Trident in

1:12:001:12:05

the general election manifesto.

The

danger, particularly for young

1:12:051:12:09

people that flock to the Labour

Party over the past few years, is

1:12:091:12:13

that if it turns out that all of

this radical stuff is really just

1:12:131:12:16

the same as what moderate Labour is

saying when it comes down to brass

1:12:161:12:19

tacks, they will not be very

impressed.

I do think there has been

1:12:191:12:24

a distinct shift in the radical

vision of what they want to do in

1:12:241:12:27

the future. When you are talking

about a private company...

1:12:271:12:37

about a private company... I was in

Dundee, Ninewells Hospital is a

1:12:371:12:39

running sore in that city, it is one

of the few hospitals will be have to

1:12:391:12:43

pay for car parking and they are

making money from that. The buyout

1:12:431:12:46

that contract would cost the

government a lot of money and that

1:12:461:12:48

is probably why it has not been done

by the current Scottish Government.

1:12:481:12:51

But going forward he has suggested

that they will take private

1:12:511:12:53

companies out of the health service

and that is a fundamental

1:12:531:12:55

difference. So I believe that there

is radical and intent, but whether

1:12:551:13:02

you can retrofitted to the previous

policies, I take that point, it is

1:13:021:13:05

difficult, you cannot just rip up

contracts without paying penalties.

1:13:051:13:07

We will have to leave it there.

Thank you both. Are you sure, people

1:13:071:13:14

can come to see you as a stand-up

comic, no longer as a political

1:13:141:13:20

advisor!

Some people would suggest

you could put a cigarette paper

1:13:201:13:24

between the two! Yes, I am on

tonight at 8pm.

Is it easy to sell

1:13:241:13:28

tickets?

You would be surprised!

Politics and comedy are so close

1:13:281:13:33

together right now.

Thank you both.

1:13:331:13:36

That's all from us this week.

1:13:361:13:39

I'll be back at the

same time next week.

1:13:391:13:40

Until then, goodbye.

1:13:401:13:45

As the investigation into the nerve agent attack in Salisbury continues, Sarah Smith talks to the former home secretary Jack Straw and former diplomat and security minister, Pauline Neville Jones. She is also joined by the universities minister, Sam Gyimah - who is touring the country trying to attract young people to the Conservative Party. On the political panel are the Sun's political editor Tom Newton-Dunn, the Daily Telegraph's Brexit editor Dia Chakravarty and political editor of the New Statesman George Eaton.