11/03/2018 Sunday Politics Scotland


11/03/2018

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LineFromTo

Morning, everyone.

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I'm Sarah Smith and this

is the Sunday Politics.

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I'll be bringing you up to speed

on all the political

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comings and goings in

Westminster and beyond.

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Coming up in today's programme.

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As the investigation into the nerve

agent attack in Salisbury continues,

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we'll be taking to the former

Home Secretary Jack Straw

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and former Security Minister,

Pauline Neville Jones.

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Is there room for more spending?

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Ahead of his spring statement this

week, the Chancellor Philip Hammond

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has hinted austerity could be over

as he said there was "light

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at the end of the tunnel".

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We join the Universities minister

Sam Gyimah on what's jokingly been

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called a "punishment

tour" of the country -

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trying to attract students

to the Conservative Party.

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Most of my friends always slander

the Conservative name saying it's

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only for middle aged men who want to

benefit from themselves.

At first I

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was like, I'm not going to say it.

One of my flatmates was like, if you

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are not Labour, don't talk to me and

I was like OK.

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In London, the Liberal Democrat

leader Vince Cable tells us why he's

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And on Sunday Politics Scotland...

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Richard Leonard tries to rally

the troops but could the single

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market crack become a chasm?

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I'll be speaking to him

from his party conference in Dundee.

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And as usual we've got three

Westminster insiders who will take

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us behind the headlines and tell us

what's really going on.

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Today I'm joined by Tom Newton Dunn,

Dia Chakravarty and George Eaton.

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The unfolding events over the past

week in the cathedral city

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of Salisbury could have been taken

straight from the pages

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of a spy thriller.

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The poisoning of a Russian former

double agent who had passed secrets

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to Britain and moved to Salisbury

after a 2010 spy swap, involved

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the use of a sinister nerve agent.

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It has shocked the country

with the finger of suspicion

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pointing firmly at Moscow.

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The big story of the week started

in Salisbury after a former

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Russian double agent,

Sergei Skripal, and his daughter

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Yulia and the policeman who went

to their aid all mysteriously fell

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ill because an as yet

unidentified nerve agent.

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12 years ago, Alexander Litvinenko

was killed by polonium 210.

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Was this more Russian foul play?

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Boris Johnson was quick

to retaliate, saying there could be

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implications for this summer's

World Cup in Russia.

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I think it will be very difficult

to imagine that UK representation

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in that event could go ahead

in the normal way.

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Did he mean the England team?

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The Prime Minister explained.

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The point the Foreign Secretary

was making yesterday was that,

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depending on what comes out

in relation to the investigation

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into the attack on the two

individuals that took place

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in Salisbury, that it might be

appropriate for the government

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to look at whether ministers

and other dignitaries should attend

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the World Cup in Russia.

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Russian state TV mocked the Foreign

Secretary for his comments,

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but the government's

firm language persisted.

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The use of a nerve agent on UK soil

is a brazen and reckless act.

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This was attempted murder

in the most cruel and public way.

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We still can't get through a week

without mentioning the B word

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as the Chancellor delivered

the latest big Brexit speech.

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He's determined to get

a good deal for the city.

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We still can't get through a week

without mentioning the B word

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So I'm clear not only

that it is possible to include

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financial services within a trade

deal, but that it is very much

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in our mutual interest to do so.

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Perhaps unsurprisingly

the EU disagreed.

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Also when it comes to financial

services, life will be

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different after Brexit.

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The EU had other things to worry

about, though, as Donald Trump put

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forward his highly controversial

plan to make American steel

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and aluminium great again.

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Surrounded by metal workers,

the President signed proclamations

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to impose a 25% tariff on steel

and a 10% tariff on aluminium

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imports into the US.

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The European Union has not treated

us well and it's been a very,

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very unfair trade situation.

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Claims of Parliamentary bullying

and sexual harassment hit

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the headlines with some

of the allegations going

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all the way to the top.

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Back in 2010, a woman called

Kate Emms took up the position

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as John Bercow's private secretary.

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But she stood down from that post

after less than a year.

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Her colleagues told Newsnight

that this is because Mr Bercow's

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bullying left her unable to continue

in that job.

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Theresa May enthusiastically

welcomed Saudi royalty

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to Downing Street this week.

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Mohammed bin Salman was even treated

to lunch at the Palace.

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Billboards sprung up extolling

in the crown prince's virtues.

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Supporters of the man

they call Mr Everything say

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he is a great reformer.

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But protests surrounding UK arms

sales were also highly visible

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and with Saudi's intervention

in Yemen ongoing, the visit

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angered Jeremy Corbyn.

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British arms sales have sharply

increased and British military

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advisers are directing the war.

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It cannot be right

that her government...

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Mr Speaker, it cannot be right

that her government is colluding

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in what the United Nations says

is evidence of war crimes.

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Clearly riled, Theresa May

got her own back, calling

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Jeremy Corbyn out on the eve

of International Women's Day.

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Can I thank the Right

Honourable Gentleman

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for telling me that it is

International Women's Day tomorrow.

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LAUGHTER.

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I think that's what's

called "mansplaining".

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Tom, Dia and George

were watching that with me.

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Now some insight and analysis into

what's going on behind the

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headlines. The big story of the week

is obviously the poisoning of Sergei

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Skripal and whether or not Russia

was involved. A lot of people have

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been quick to assume that President

Putin sanctioned this and it's a

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Russian state operation but can we

be sure of that?

Reasonably sure,

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yes, clearly there is no physical

proof to produce at the moment. I

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think by the end of last week the

government were in no doubt that

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this was ordered by the Russian

state and in particular Vladimir

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Putin, who, under Russian state

rules, has to sign of all foreign

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assassinations personally since rule

change in 2006. The reason I think

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they are almost certain about this

is quite frankly no one else has a

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motive to do that. Who would want to

do a better job in spite of analogy

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on an old colonel living quietly in

Salisbury? Not the people have the

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modes of delivery to do this, to

pass a nerve agent, chemical

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weapons, on Britain's streets.

Thirdly, this will be the killer,

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the scientific proof it was an

extremely rare nerve agent, used,

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not one of the more widely available

once you see in things like Syria,

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it's a rare particular type which

has only been known to be produced

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in one or two laboratories in the

world, one of them is in Moscow. The

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Moscow foreign spy service. What is

fascinating is not just was Vladimir

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Putin responsible? It is why he

wanted us to know he was

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responsible, because he left such a

massive calling card, and that has

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been really bothering cabinet

ministers in the last week.

Dia, we

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had from the Chief Medical Officer

who said traces of this nerve agent

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has been found in the restaurant

where Sergei Skripal and his

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daughter were eating and 500 people

were there at the same time and they

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should wash their clothes and clean

their possessions that were with

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them. There is a small rescue but

there is a risk. Frightening news

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like that is what drives home to

people why it matters this is

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happening in the UK.

Absolutely and

there are so many questions about

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this, even before we do want to who

was doing this. That's very

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important. This also questions about

how the whole thing has been

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handled, seven days, and they are

now telling these terrified

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residents to wash their clothes and

possessions. Is that going to be

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enough? What exactly is this agent?

If we see people in scary laboratory

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suits walking around, doing what

they need to do, a quarantine going

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on, is it enough to say go and wash

your clothes seven days later? The

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communication around it, I

understand it is sensitive, that I

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think it has been dire. Really quite

woeful. If I was living in Salisbury

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I would be very, very worried.

George, the UK Government, once the

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investigation has finished and they

decide whether this was a

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state-sponsored assassination, they

need to decide how to respond. All

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we have practically heard of so far

is some rubber mats might not go to

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the World Cup in Russia, presumably

will have to do come up with

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something better than that --

diplomats. What can we do that

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Russia will care about?

The pressure

from some Labour Party and

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Conservative MPs is to introduce a

version of the Magnitsky Act, which

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means it's easier to freeze the

assets of Russians suspected of

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human rights abuses or corruption,

and expel them, but Britain is

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severely limited and I think it's

worth asking the question why did

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Russia choose this moment to target

Britain? We are set to leave the

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European Union, huge burdens on

governments, stretching the

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government bandwidth to its limits,

and Donald Trump and the USA who we

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supposedly have a special

relationship with, is imposing

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tariffs on steel and has not made

any robust intervention over this,

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despite the fact he normally rushes

to tweet when there is a terrorist

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attack on British soil after making

unhelpful remarks. He has not been

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standing shoulder to shoulder with

Britain in this instance.

There has

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been a suggestion this should come

up at the next Nato summit in

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Brussels, and they could be looking

for some kind of coordinated

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response from international allies.

Is that likely?

It's difficult to

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see at the moment. Russia's strength

here is significant and Vladimir

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Putin, such a brazen act, clearly he

does not feel Britain has the

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capacity to respond. Last December,

when we were short of gas, the one

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country we turn to was Russia.

We

will be back to talk about the other

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stories during the programme.

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The poisoning of Sergei Skripal

and his daughter carries

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echoes of the murder

of Alexander Litvinenko,

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the ex KGB officer who died

after drinking tea laced

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with radioactive polonium 210

in a London hotel in 2006.

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And this morning, his widow,

Marina Litvinenko urged Theresa May

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to adopt American-style laws that

are tougher on Russia.

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You need to be very selective who

you are friends with. And when you

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allow people with money to come to

your country and make a business,

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you need to be sure what kind of

money these people try to bring to

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your country because very often this

money is stolen from Russian people

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and sometimes it is a very serious

crime behind it. I'm

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crime behind it. I'm absolutely

asking this question to unite this

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action already done in the United

States, in Europe. I think the UK

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has to do the same steps.

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Joining me now from Edinburgh

is the former Home and Foreign

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Secretary, Jack Straw.

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Thank you very much for joining us

this morning. Do you agree that the

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UK needs to introduce tougher laws,

the likes of which the US has?

I do

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think we should do this now. I think

have to take this very careful

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step-by-step way, so I think the

approach of Amber Rudd and her

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security minister, Ben Wallace, is

the right one. Jumping to

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conclusions in this situation is not

a sensible way to proceed. The other

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thing we have to think about very

carefully, when it comes to those

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who are saying something must be

done and if you are in government,

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you get this all the time, in

situations like this, something has

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got to be done, is what happens when

you have to get back to normality? I

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often reflect on the sanctions were

imposed to Zimbabwe for the

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different situation but there are

parallels. In retrospect, Robert

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Mugabe was a very bad man, but in

retrospect I often wonder if it was

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a sensible thing to do. In the end

we had to get the troops down again.

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It was very tricky so people need to

think very carefully indeed. This is

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on the assumption the Russian state

was behind this, which has not yet

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been approved or announced.

If we do

establish that and work on the

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presumption for now and I understand

your reservations, would President

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Putin care if we were to try and

institute some kind of sanctions or

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punishments or does it just increase

the siege mentality Russia is under

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threat from the rest of the world

which in many ways bolstered his

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position in advance of the elections

coming up soon?

If we were to do it

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unilaterally, just the UK, he

wouldn't careful stop with the EU,

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and more other major allies

including the USA, he might take

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notice but frankly, I think he

regarded as a medal if we were

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simply to do it by ourselves and he

knows that, post the collapse of the

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Berlin Wall and the Soviet Union in

the early 1990s, there is a huge

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amount of Russian money in the UK,

particularly in London, and a

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Magnitsky Act won't make that much

difference to the level of

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dependence of some very highly

respectable British London based

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financial institutions with Russian

money.

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With the Alexander Litvinenko case,

an enquiry two tiers to get to the

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bottom of what happened there, and

could only conclude that it was

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probably orchestrated by the Russian

state. Can you take any sort of

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action on the basis of something

probably being true?

People need to

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bear in mind the example of Iraq.

The evidence against Saddam Hussein

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having and continuing to have

biological weapons was overwhelming.

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The question came up in United

Nations Security Council

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resolutions, passed unanimously.

That is what Tony Blair and I used

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almost 15 years ago to persuade

people to go to war against Iraq,

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and it turned out to be completely

incorrect, so you've got to be

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really careful. I have the scars

literally on my back in respect of

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this. In the heat of the moment,

with people in the House of Commons

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and the newspapers screeching,

something 's got to be done, being

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non-explicit about what... Moreover,

we shouldn't descend to the level of

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the criminal justice system in the

Russian Federation or other states

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like that. There are demands today

from some Conservatives to ban the

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Russia Today programme.

The Shadow

Chancellor said today that he

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doesn't think Labour MPs will be

appearing on there in the future.

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Will you do the same?

I have not

appeared on there for some time, but

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I will make a decision on my own

terms. We have to be careful about

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doing that in the absence of

evidence. Far better for Britain's

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position in the world to have high

standards of probity. It's better to

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bear in mind that well intentioned

people who do not lie at all,

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including myself, and the House of

Commons by a huge majority, and

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public opinion at the time, came to

the wrong decision with respect to

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whether or not Saddam Hussein still

had biological weapons on the basis

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of probabilities. That is the

difficulty here. People will of

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course be very impatient indeed to

have a culprit here, and obviously

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stacking it up on the basis of

circumstantial evidence, you can

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make a very good case that it is the

Russian state, but we need a bit of

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sobriety before we come to that

conclusion. Thank God that Amber

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Rudd is the Home Secretary at the

moment. Someone else I could think

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of in the British Cabinet, and she

is taking a very measured approach

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to this.

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Here with me now is Pauline Neville

Jones, who was Security

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and Counter Terrorism Minister under

David Cameron, when Theresa May

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was Home Secretary.

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That was fascinating, listening to

Jack Straw drawing parallels with

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Iraq and what was supposedly the

evidence of chemical and biological

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weapons there, saying we have to be

very careful about pointing the

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finger of blame. With your security

experience, will we ever be able to

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establish whether this was

sanctioned by the Russians?

I doubt

0:18:090:18:13

the Russian state will admit it was

involved. In order to get absolute

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proof, what we needed with

Litvinenko was to have a trial.

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There hasn't been a trial because

the Russians wouldn't cooperate. I

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think it's right for the government

to be cautious about saying anything

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now, because it mustn't be seen to

lead the investigation and therefore

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damage it, but once we have

established a degree of probability

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about the cause, that is the time

for action. I think the chances of

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it not being connected with Russia

in some way are very low.

The means

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would point to that, but what is the

motive? This is a retired agent

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who's been living here for years.

Came as part of the spy as well. The

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unwritten rule of espionage is that

you don't touch spies. What dangers

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does he pose to the Russian regime?

I think we simply don't know the

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full story. There's plenty of

evidence that the Russian regime is

0:19:160:19:20

pretty vicious. Even if he was part

of a swap, I don't think you can

0:19:200:19:25

exclude the fact that the Russian

state might decide to take action

0:19:250:19:29

against him.

Looking at pictures of

him and his daughter there. It's

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difficult to see what threat they

posed to the Russian state. Is it

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not worth considering the

possibility that they may have been

0:19:400:19:43

involved in something else that

isn't technically state faction --

0:19:430:19:52

state sanctioned?

If possible. It is

possible that the Mafia was

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involved. The question is, what lay

behind the Mafia and where did the

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nerve agent come from? Is it

possible to come from elsewhere than

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a state laboratory? It's difficult

to imagine that the threat isn't

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going to go back to Russia somehow.

Is it possible to take action

0:20:130:20:19

against wealthy Russian oligarchs

living in London, even if we change

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the laws and bring in something like

the Magnitsky act? Mrs Litvinenko

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got a letter from Theresa May, Home

Secretary at the time, saying that

0:20:300:20:34

we want to make sure nothing like

this happens again in the UK, and

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now it has.

There are already powers

which the government can use. One of

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the reasons why there was an

argument in the Commons the other

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day about this so-called Magnitsky

amendment was that the government

0:20:460:20:52

said, we've got the powers. You may

say, we need to use these powers,

0:20:520:20:58

for example to investigate people

who have unexplained wealth. There

0:20:580:21:03

are things we can do.

These are

people who are not necessarily

0:21:030:21:08

linked to Putin and the regime, so

these are two distinct things.

They

0:21:080:21:14

are. You have to be careful how you

do this, and it requires resources.

0:21:140:21:19

This is a complicated job. Jack

Straw put his finger on it when he

0:21:190:21:23

said, we need to act in concert with

allies. This is the thing that the

0:21:230:21:28

Russians really are going to take

notice of. At the moment, it's fair

0:21:280:21:33

to say that although we are Aljaz

overtime, we have gradually

0:21:330:21:39

increased the pressure. With

sanctions, and Nato have increased

0:21:390:21:44

measures on its borders, but we

still have a great deal of

0:21:440:21:48

harassment from the Russians. They

are taking action in people's

0:21:480:21:52

politics. They are conducting cyber

attacks. We need to act as an

0:21:520:21:58

alliance so that the Russians really

do believe, and they seek positive

0:21:580:22:04

evidence of it, that action against

one is an action against all, and

0:22:040:22:09

collective action follows. We need

to have a strategy that brings

0:22:090:22:13

together what we do militarily, what

we do to protect our citizens in the

0:22:130:22:19

cyber sphere, what we do in

broadcasting, so we have an all

0:22:190:22:23

encompassing way of dealing with

Russia.

Thank you very much for

0:22:230:22:30

coming to talk to us.

0:22:300:22:33

The new Universities Minister,

Sam Gyimah, has set himself

0:22:330:22:35

a rather ambitious task.

0:22:350:22:36

Travelling up and down the country,

he's trying to attract students

0:22:360:22:38

to the Conservative Party.

0:22:380:22:39

With just one in five voters aged

between 18 and 24 voting Tory

0:22:390:22:43

in the 2017 election,

it's been jokingly called

0:22:430:22:44

his "punishment tour".

0:22:440:22:45

Our reporter Elizabeth Glinka

joined Sam on his visit

0:22:450:22:48

to Canterbury Christ Church

University.

0:22:480:22:49

And just to warn you,

her report contains flashing images.

0:22:490:22:57

Was that a youth quake?

0:23:080:23:10

Reports of a massive

increase in young voters at

0:23:100:23:12

the last general election may

have been exaggerated.

0:23:120:23:15

# I got the big size

12s on my feet...

0:23:150:23:18

Nationally, the turnout didn't

really change, but of

0:23:180:23:21

the young people that did vote,

a whopping 67% went for Labour.

0:23:210:23:27

And in a place like

Canterbury, where there

0:23:270:23:29

are more than 30,000 students,

it's thought that their votes played

0:23:290:23:32

a big part in the city

electing its first ever Labour MP.

0:23:320:23:37

Canterbury.

0:23:370:23:39

This has been Conservative

since World War I.

0:23:390:23:42

An extraordinary surge

in their share, up 20% here.

0:23:420:23:48

In general, everyone just

always seems to think

0:23:480:23:50

that the Conservatives are always

doing something wrong,

0:23:500:23:52

so even if you don't know

about the Conservatives,

0:23:520:23:54

all you hear, you just think

negative things about it.

0:23:540:23:56

Most of my friends always slander

the Conservative name, saying,

0:23:560:23:59

"It's only for middle-aged men who

want the benefit from themselves."

0:23:590:24:02

Do you think you have

to be quite brave to

0:24:020:24:04

say, "I am a Conservative?"

0:24:040:24:05

Yeah.

0:24:050:24:07

At first, I was like,

OK, I'm not going

0:24:070:24:09

to say anything to my friends,

because they will just kick off.

0:24:090:24:12

One of my flatmates was like,

"If you are not a Labour

0:24:120:24:14

voter, don't talk to me."

0:24:140:24:16

Labour had a lot of backing.

0:24:160:24:17

They had people like

AJ Tracey jumping on.

0:24:170:24:19

So once they see that,

everyone kind of runs

0:24:190:24:21

to it, like, let's vote Labour.

0:24:210:24:23

# Tracksuit grey, black,

blue

0:24:230:24:24

# I was just a hope-filled kid

like you...

0:24:240:24:26

AJ Tracey is just one of any number

of current music acts who publicly

0:24:260:24:29

endorsed the Labour Party

at the last general election,

0:24:290:24:32

helping to build a brand

which was apparently three times

0:24:320:24:35

more attractive to young voters.

0:24:350:24:39

To be fair, it's not

as if there was some sort of golden

0:24:390:24:42

era of Conservative hipsters,

but the figures suggest

0:24:420:24:45

things are getting worse.

0:24:450:24:49

And that's why the new Universities

Minister, Sam Gyimah,

0:24:490:24:52

is currently on a nationwide tour,

including here in Canterbury,

0:24:520:24:55

where he is attempting to

at least start a conversation

0:24:550:24:58

with a generation of voters who see

his party as old, male and stale.

0:24:580:25:01

Minister, this seems

a good time to jump in.

0:25:010:25:05

This is an incredibly difficult job,

isn't it, convincing young people

0:25:050:25:10

to vote Conservative?

0:25:100:25:12

We do have our work cut out for us,

but I think the first thing to do

0:25:120:25:16

is actually to be on campus.

0:25:160:25:18

If we allow Jeremy Corbyn to be

the only one on campus, then we only

0:25:180:25:22

have ourselves to blame.

0:25:220:25:24

Many students will say to you, well,

it's fine, you're having

0:25:240:25:27

a review on student fees

and many other things.

0:25:270:25:29

The Labour Party's promising us

they're going to get rid of fees.

0:25:290:25:32

We know what happens when you

promised something for free.

0:25:320:25:34

Numbers are going to be capped,

which means fewer people

0:25:340:25:37

going to university.

0:25:370:25:39

It's the well off that

are going to do it.

0:25:390:25:42

That's not what we're about.

0:25:420:25:43

I'm not really worried

about Jeremy Corbyn's free

0:25:430:25:45

for all offer, because it's not

realistic, and he can't deliver it,

0:25:450:25:48

and we only need to look

at countries like Scotland to see

0:25:480:25:51

that it's not going to work.

0:25:510:25:52

And what reaction are you expecting

when you head in there?

0:25:520:25:55

Well, I thought it might

be rowdy like PMQs.

0:25:550:25:57

I've no idea.

0:25:570:25:58

I haven't had the mob treatment

anywhere yet so far.

0:25:580:26:00

# Your face ain't big for my boot

0:26:000:26:02

# Kick up the yout

0:26:020:26:03

# I know that I kick up the yout...

0:26:030:26:07

There might not have been

a youth quake nationally,

0:26:070:26:09

but there was a bit of a youth quake

in Canterbury, and I want to listen

0:26:090:26:13

and I want to understand.

0:26:130:26:15

You know, we've had enough

of austerity politics.

0:26:150:26:16

We've had enough of student fees,

things like that, and we've seen

0:26:160:26:19

the NHS get less and less

funded over time.

0:26:190:26:23

And it's hard to

ignore those things.

0:26:230:26:25

You know, we are going to take

action against you.

0:26:250:26:27

# Bros in my ear saying

"Stormz, don't do it"

0:26:270:26:30

# Devil on my shoulder

I don't lack

0:26:300:26:32

# Hit 'em

with a crowbar, I don't scrap...

0:26:320:26:34

Well, lots of discussion,

some of it a bit feisty,

0:26:340:26:36

but did the Minister win any

hearts and minds?

0:26:360:26:38

He's really good at talking

to students, and he's

0:26:380:26:41

here to talk to everyone.

0:26:410:26:42

Would it make you feel differently

about voting Conservative?

0:26:420:26:44

I took from your comments that

you were not a Conservative voter.

0:26:440:26:48

Definitely not, but I did think

he made some good points,

0:26:480:26:51

and he was very measured.

0:26:510:26:52

It's quite clear that there

are a number of people here who have

0:26:520:26:55

been seduced by Jeremy Corbyn,

but I think the purpose of this

0:26:550:26:58

is to let them realise

that there is a Conservative voice,

0:26:580:27:01

there is a Conservative point

of view, and that as a minister

0:27:010:27:03

I am here to listen.

0:27:030:27:06

Clearly a smart man.

0:27:060:27:07

I'm not sure it's better

or worse to have a smart

0:27:070:27:11

Tory or a stupid Tory,

but he knew what he was

0:27:110:27:13

talking about, even though

I disagree with him.

0:27:130:27:16

Would it make you think twice

about voting Conservative?

0:27:160:27:18

No, I will never vote

Conservative in my life.

0:27:180:27:22

So as the sun sets in Canterbury,

there's still a long way to go.

0:27:220:27:28

And Universities Minister Sam

Gymiah joins me now.

0:27:280:27:36

A smart Tory. That is a compliment

from one of the students! Do you

0:27:360:27:42

think you persuaded many of them to

vote Tory?

The point of the exercise

0:27:420:27:47

was not to persuade people to vote

Conservative. As Universities

0:27:470:27:52

Minister, I'm very conscious that

students are investing a

0:27:520:27:55

considerable amount of money in

their education, so they should have

0:27:550:28:01

a voice in the corridors of power.

Gone are the days that the

0:28:010:28:04

Universities Minister 's spends time

with the chancellors and not the

0:28:040:28:09

students. Jeremy Corbyn has a voice

on the campus, and if we allow that

0:28:090:28:14

to continue, we only have ourselves

to blame. The starting point in the

0:28:140:28:18

process is listening and engaging,

rather than going in there to preach

0:28:180:28:22

to them about what their problems

and answers are.

You have a mountain

0:28:220:28:27

to climb with young people. Let's

have a look at the numbers. At the

0:28:270:28:32

last election, between 18 to

24-year-olds, 67% voted Labour.

0:28:320:28:38

Unless you can change those minds,

you have a generational problem with

0:28:380:28:45

voters, and you will not see

Conservative governments in the

0:28:450:28:48

future, unless people change their

minds.

What I am doing at the moment

0:28:480:28:52

is pressing, which is why the party

is beginning to engage with students

0:28:520:28:57

at this level. A number of things

have come up as I've travelled

0:28:570:29:00

around the country that we can

address. Austerity keeps coming up.

0:29:000:29:04

We stopped making the case for why

we had to reduce the deficit from

0:29:040:29:10

the extreme levels that we inherited

from the Labour Party. One man said

0:29:100:29:14

to me, all I have ever heard the

Conservatives talk

0:29:140:29:27

about is austerity. It must be your

ideology. That is clearly not the

0:29:280:29:30

case. It is a matter of necessity,

not ideology.

We have the spring

0:29:300:29:33

statement coming up next week. The

Chancellor has said this morning

0:29:330:29:36

that we are in a much better

financial position at the moment

0:29:360:29:39

then we have been, but it doesn't

sound like he's going to end

0:29:390:29:43

austerity. Would you encourage him

to do so?

This brings statement is

0:29:430:29:47

an update on the public finances.

But he is going to point further

0:29:470:29:52

ahead to the budget in the autumn,

and he doesn't seem to be talking

0:29:520:29:57

about the increased public spending

you think will attract people to the

0:29:570:30:01

Tories.

We are not going to say we

are going to return to discredited

0:30:010:30:06

economic policies of 40 years ago.

What he should be saying to young

0:30:060:30:10

people is that the balanced approach

that he is pursuing, in a world

0:30:100:30:15

where we have technological

challenge and a global market

0:30:150:30:19

economy, the Conservatives are

uniquely placed to deliver

0:30:190:30:23

prosperity for them. Another issue

that comes up is our motives. When

0:30:230:30:28

we talk about economic prosperity,

people feel it is for the few.

0:30:280:30:32

Sometimes I have to explain that the

top rate of tax has been higher

0:30:320:30:40

under the Conservatives, and that

the top 1% pay 20% of income tax.

0:30:400:30:44

They didn't know that. We need to

talk about -- we need to persuade

0:30:440:30:50

them that when we talk about

economic prosperity, it is their

0:30:500:30:52

future we are talking about.

0:30:520:30:58

You addressed tuition fees in the

film but look at maintenance grants

0:30:580:31:01

being cut by this government so the

poorer students to go to university

0:31:010:31:05

will lead with larger debt than

those from better off backgrounds.

0:31:050:31:08

When that is their experience right

now on campus, no wonder they keep

0:31:080:31:13

thinking you are looking after the

better off and not the

0:31:130:31:19

disadvantaged.

Canterbury has the

best proportion of students went

0:31:190:31:21

university for the first time in

their families. Many of those would

0:31:210:31:24

not be at university at all had we

pursue the Jeremy Corbyn policy.

0:31:240:31:33

Jeremy Corbyn is promising to

abolish tuition fees so that would

0:31:340:31:38

make it easier for students to go to

university.

Once you make university

0:31:380:31:42

free you can't have a current policy

we have which is that the numbers

0:31:420:31:45

who can go to university are capped.

At a time when the numbers were not

0:31:450:31:51

capped, our own history, very few

people went to university and mentor

0:31:510:31:55

very few poor people went

university. A consequence of the

0:31:550:32:00

Conservative policy is a lot of

disadvantaged people are giving to

0:32:000:32:03

university for the first time and we

have a student finance scheme where

0:32:030:32:07

you do not pay a penny as a first

burner unless you in over £25,000

0:32:070:32:13

and after 30 years, whatever you

have managed to pay, is written. I'm

0:32:130:32:17

not saying is perfect.

That very

system is replacing grants for

0:32:170:32:21

poorer students with loans. Why? If

you are so keen to get disadvantaged

0:32:210:32:28

students into universities, wide

takeaway maintenance grants?

There

0:32:280:32:32

is a review looking at the whole

system, but when many students

0:32:320:32:35

complain about the student finances,

they focus on accommodation.

0:32:350:32:39

Somewhere like London, landlords

want to get the years rent in

0:32:390:32:45

advance. That is a difficult

situation for them and the cost of

0:32:450:32:49

living issues, rather than assuming

we know...

There's an interest rate

0:32:490:32:55

on a student loan of over 6% which

is way in excess of what people are

0:32:550:33:00

borrowing on mortgages etc.

The cost

of living in University...

They must

0:33:000:33:07

be worried about it.

Whatever your

level of earnings, you pay 9% of

0:33:070:33:12

your income, which means higher rate

in graduates pay more to the system

0:33:120:33:16

but I also think to narrow the

debate on student fees, students

0:33:160:33:22

have a lot of interest, not all

students think student fees is their

0:33:220:33:26

big issue. Someone to see their

politicians care about making the

0:33:260:33:32

world a better place. What kind of

world they are going into, they will

0:33:320:33:36

get on the housing ladder, housing

is big issue for them but the

0:33:360:33:39

economy prospers, so I think that's

why you have got to listen and not

0:33:390:33:42

assume all students have the same

view and there is one answer that

0:33:420:33:46

deals with all the problems of every

18-21 -year-old.

Mental health keeps

0:33:460:33:50

cropping up. I'm sure the university

's lecturers strike came up as well.

0:33:500:33:56

Now students are paying £9,000 in

fees, they are consumers as well as

0:33:560:34:01

students, so should they get a

refund for the lessons they have not

0:34:010:34:04

been taught?

Universities do not pay

lecturers on the day they strike,

0:34:040:34:11

they should not pocket those funds,

but look at compensation for

0:34:110:34:15

students and there are real ways of

compensating students.

Would you

0:34:150:34:19

compel them to do that?

I'm not in a

position to compel them to do that.

0:34:190:34:25

There is the regulator for

university who has a wide-ranging

0:34:250:34:27

remit. I'm encouraged some

universities are taking this

0:34:270:34:33

seriously. Kings College London will

offer financial compensation. I

0:34:330:34:39

think they should look at this very

seriously. I am disappointed I am

0:34:390:34:43

seeing lots of petitions out there

from Durham University, a petition

0:34:430:34:47

of 5000 students, asking for

compensation. I want to university

0:34:470:34:53

to respond constructively, because

we are in the age of the student and

0:34:530:34:56

we are there to serve.

One quick

question, talking about Russia on

0:34:560:35:00

the programme so far this morning, a

story this morning in the papers

0:35:000:35:05

saying over £800 million has been

donated to the Tory party from

0:35:050:35:09

Russian link to donors since Theresa

May took over, even notice that you

0:35:090:35:14

wanted an arms length relationship.

Is that something that should be

0:35:140:35:17

discouraged in the future and should

the money be returned now?

To make a

0:35:170:35:22

donation to a political party in

this country you have to be a

0:35:220:35:25

citizen Dungannon

0:35:250:35:30

citizen Dungannon -- and betting

needs to be taken place. Modern

0:35:330:35:37

Britain is made up by people from

all sorts of places. Some groups of

0:35:370:35:44

people cannot participate in Aber

Democratic life to the fall, and we

0:35:440:35:46

have got to be clear, these are

British citizens from Russia. Not

0:35:460:35:51

the Kremlin donating to the

Conservative Party.

Of course not,

0:35:510:35:56

but there could be a question of

where those funds came from in the

0:35:560:36:00

first place for the wedding end up

on the front page of a Sunday

0:36:000:36:04

newspaper saying this much money has

been donated to the Conservative

0:36:040:36:07

Party, maybe it would be better to

think again where you receive your

0:36:070:36:11

large donations from?

It's not just

the letter of the law but vetting

0:36:110:36:15

should be thorough.

Sam Gyimah,

thank you very much for coming in to

0:36:150:36:22

talk to us.

0:36:220:36:23

It's coming up to 11.40.

0:36:230:36:24

You're watching

the Sunday Politics.

0:36:240:36:25

Still to come, we'll be

discussing the economy.

0:36:250:36:27

Is it time to end austerity?

0:36:270:36:29

First though, its time for

the Sunday Politics where you are.

0:36:290:36:33

Good morning and welcome

to Sunday Politics Scotland.

0:36:330:36:35

Coming up on the programme....

0:36:350:36:36

Smiles and glad hands

at the conference.

0:36:360:36:38

But behind the scenes,

how big a problem has

0:36:380:36:40

Scottish Labour got over

the single market?

0:36:400:36:42

I'll be asking their leader,

Richard Leonard, whether

0:36:420:36:44

Jeremy Corbyn's remarks

on immigration were xenophobic.

0:36:440:36:46

And the Scottish Youth Theatre

gets set to close.

0:36:460:36:50

I'll be asking Creative Scotland

if there's any chance

0:36:500:36:55

of an 11th-hour funding reprieve -

the answer appears

0:36:550:36:58

to be, yes, there is.

0:36:580:37:02

At the Scottish Labour Conference,

its new leader, Richard Leonard,

0:37:020:37:04

promised a fundamental change

in the Scottish economy and said

0:37:040:37:07

he would not only stop future

Private Finance Initiative deals,

0:37:070:37:09

but bring existing ones back

into the public sector.

0:37:090:37:13

But was he really threatening

to cancel contracts?

0:37:130:37:15

He also ran into a row over

a speech by Jeremy Corbyn

0:37:150:37:18

which Nicola Sturgeon and some

in the Labour Party itself said was

0:37:180:37:21

using the language of Nigel Farage.

0:37:210:37:23

Well, a little earlier

I spoke to Richard Leonard.

0:37:230:37:31

You said in your speech yesterday

that not only under you would do no

0:37:310:37:38

longer be any PFI contracts but you

wanted to bring existing ones in

0:37:380:37:42

house. How exactly do you propose to

do that?

Well, there are around 130

0:37:420:37:50

both PFI PPP and not-for-profit

contracts out there and they are in

0:37:500:37:59

large measure all different and it

would be a case of renegotiating

0:37:590:38:02

each one of them. Some of them

frankly are coming towards the end

0:38:020:38:06

of their lives, some are in

0:38:060:38:16

of their lives, some are in the

hands of companies who would

0:38:160:38:18

probably look forward to an

opportunity to get themselves out of

0:38:180:38:20

those contracts. So I think the

environment for negotiation is good

0:38:200:38:22

at the moment. Whilst I said in my

speech yesterday that under a future

0:38:220:38:25

Scottish Labour government, we would

not sign any new PFI deals or NPD

0:38:250:38:30

deals, I think there is action that

could be taken at the moment and we

0:38:300:38:34

have a debate tabled in the next few

days and the Scottish Parliament on

0:38:340:38:39

this whole question of public

infrastructure, hopefully we will

0:38:390:38:43

call for a review of the Scottish

Futures Trust.

To be clear, if I am

0:38:430:38:47

a contractor who has one of these

PFI contracts and I am listening to

0:38:470:38:52

you, I do not need to worry that you

will somehow break the contract?

0:38:520:38:58

This will only be if I am willing to

negotiate with you?

Well, it will be

0:38:580:39:05

a negotiation, absolutely, again, I

have said that there are priorities,

0:39:050:39:09

the priorities would be what you

might call the low hanging fruit of

0:39:090:39:13

those contracts coming to the end of

the alive, so let us look at how

0:39:130:39:17

they can excel and bringing that

into the public sector, but for

0:39:170:39:21

reasons that I am sure that you

understand, I am keen to see the

0:39:210:39:24

removal of private contractors from

the National Health Service. So

0:39:240:39:28

where did our facilities and

management companies who are

0:39:280:39:33

currently delivering services in our

hospitals, I would like to see the

0:39:330:39:37

contracts brought out as a matter of

urgency.

But if I am one of these

0:39:370:39:41

contractors and I do not want to

negotiate with you and I have a

0:39:410:39:44

contract and I want to stick to

that, I would be allowed to do that?

0:39:440:39:52

Well, the point of entering into a

negotiation is to try to find a

0:39:520:39:56

settlement.

What if I do not want to

negotiate and I want to settle with

0:39:560:40:00

my current contract?

Well, in the

commercial world, my experience of

0:40:000:40:07

over 20 years as a trade union

negotiator, it is that in the end

0:40:070:40:14

people are prepared to reach

settlements and to go through a

0:40:140:40:17

negotiation process to find that. So

I would be very surprised if there

0:40:170:40:21

were any contractors involved in

delivering public services in

0:40:210:40:24

Scotland that would not be at least

open to a conversation about how an

0:40:240:40:29

earlier termination of the contract

could be reached.

Sorry, why? If I

0:40:290:40:34

had a contract and I built a PFI

hospital or a bold and I have lots

0:40:340:40:39

of money coming in from it and for

the next ten years, I am telling you

0:40:390:40:43

I am happy with this, thank you, I

am making a lot of money out of it.

0:40:430:40:50

Yes, but Gordon, this is in the

context of seeing the collapse of

0:40:500:40:53

Carillion, one of the biggest

providers of public contracts in the

0:40:530:40:58

public realm, not just in Scotland,

but throughout the UK. There are

0:40:580:41:02

other major players in that field

whose share prices have dropped.

0:41:020:41:06

Others are giving up profit

warnings, so I think that the

0:41:060:41:10

climate is right, to start opening

up negotiations with these

0:41:100:41:13

companies. It is

0:41:130:41:19

companies. It is a good time to have

this conversation.

I am interested

0:41:200:41:22

in how much of your rhetoric

yesterday involved forcing people to

0:41:220:41:25

do things. In that one that is up

for negotiation. You also spoke

0:41:250:41:28

about local authority pension funds

and getting them involved in

0:41:280:41:32

financing council houses. Again,

presumably, this is a good idea that

0:41:320:41:36

you would like to tell them, you

cannot mandate local authority

0:41:360:41:39

pension funds to do that?

No, local

authority pension schemes are

0:41:390:41:45

managed by the trustees of those

schemes.

Exactly.

But in the end

0:41:450:41:52

they are accountable to the pension

holders, to the employees, two

0:41:520:41:56

people contributing to those

schemes. To the employers

0:41:560:42:00

contributing to those schemes

including local authorities. So I

0:42:000:42:07

think it is a perfectly sensible

proposition to put the local

0:42:070:42:09

authorities, to employers, who are

investing in these pension schemes,

0:42:090:42:13

to say, instead of putting money

into stock San Siro the Far East,

0:42:130:42:17

why do we not look at how we can

reinvest in our local economies? Let

0:42:170:42:22

us look at AB of generating steady

income streams through investment in

0:42:220:42:25

public housing. Also meeting the

public need as well.

My point is

0:42:250:42:33

about forcing people to do things.

Trustees of a pension fund might

0:42:330:42:40

tell you, sorry, these derivatives

that we are investing in, we think

0:42:400:42:43

these are better deal for our

pension fund members and we hear

0:42:430:42:47

what you are telling us about

council houses but no thank you.

0:42:470:42:49

There is nothing you can do about

that?

My school of Democratic

0:42:490:42:59

Socialism is founded on the

principle of persuasion and not

0:42:590:43:01

coercion. So I am not suggesting

that we would seize assets or force

0:43:010:43:03

people to do things, I am telling

you that we would look at ways of

0:43:030:43:07

bringing about a change in the

culture, and behaviour and a change

0:43:070:43:11

in practice. And I think it is

eminently sensible to open up

0:43:110:43:17

conversations and there are examples

already of pension funds, Local

0:43:170:43:22

Government Pension Scheme is used to

invest in local infrastructure. I

0:43:220:43:26

think Manchester Council, Islington

Council and even Falkirk Council in

0:43:260:43:30

Scotland have looked at this as a

possible way forward.

It is an idea

0:43:300:43:36

whose time has come. When Jeremy

Corbyn at your party conference

0:43:360:43:39

talked about wanting to be outside

the single market because he wanted

0:43:390:43:44

to prevent employers from being able

to import cheap agency labour to

0:43:440:43:48

undercut the Labour Party -- labour

in this country, Nicola Sturgeon,

0:43:480:43:55

the First Minister said that he was

using the sort of language that she

0:43:550:44:00

is more used to hearing from Nigel

Farage, that sentiment has been

0:44:000:44:03

echoed today by former Secretary of

State for Scotland, sorry, Shadow

0:44:030:44:10

Secretary of State for Scotland, Ian

Murray, and your former Deputy

0:44:100:44:13

Leader, they all have a point, do

they not?

I think that they are

0:44:130:44:18

wrong, I recognise that emotions in

this debate are very high and that

0:44:180:44:24

people have very strong views, about

what they would like to see the

0:44:240:44:27

future shape of both Scotland and

the UK was mad relationship with the

0:44:270:44:31

European Union look like after

Brexit, but I just think that it is

0:44:310:44:34

wrong to try to equate anything that

Jeremy

0:44:340:44:41

Jeremy Corbyn has said with Nigel

Farage. Why? Because the truth of

0:44:430:44:46

the matter is that Jeremy Corbyn

throughout his entire life is one of

0:44:460:44:49

the most anti-racist campaigners I

have known, he has always stuck for

0:44:490:44:51

workers' rights and represents one

of the most multicultural

0:44:510:44:55

constituencies with the large amount

of immigration in that of any within

0:44:550:44:58

the entire UK. To suggest that the

Jeremy Corbyn is in anyway looking

0:44:580:45:04

towards a blog to any access to the

single market because of what it

0:45:040:45:09

might do to migration is false.

But

that is precisely what he said. Let

0:45:090:45:16

me read you what he said, one of the

reasons for being outside the single

0:45:160:45:21

market was to prevent employers

being able to import cheap agency

0:45:210:45:25

labour to undercut existing pain

conditions in the name of free

0:45:250:45:29

market orthodoxy and the point that

the Nicola Sturgeon and Kezia

0:45:290:45:32

Dugdale and Ian Murray would make

about that is that the problem with

0:45:320:45:36

undercutting pay is with the

practices of employers in this

0:45:360:45:41

country, who also sometimes undercut

pee and do not pay the minimum wage

0:45:410:45:45

to indigenous British workers. It

has nothing to do with immigration

0:45:450:45:48

from Europe in the manner that

Jeremy Corbyn has a -- suggest the

0:45:480:45:52

debtors because of cheap labour from

Europe.

If you are suggesting that

0:45:520:45:56

the problem in that scenario is with

the employer, I would agree with you

0:45:560:46:01

because it is the employer who is

doubly exploiting workers in that

0:46:010:46:04

situation. But there is a point and

it has been in the Labour Party

0:46:040:46:08

manifesto in the last two elections

that we would like to see a practice

0:46:080:46:12

where UK

0:46:120:46:20

where UK employers deliberately go

out to source labour from parts of

0:46:200:46:24

the European Union in order to bring

them in on a less than going rate

0:46:240:46:27

basis. We should be arguing for all

kinds of the trade union going rate

0:46:270:46:30

in these industries and that is

extremely important, fundamental

0:46:300:46:32

principle of the trade union

movement and the Labour Party.

That

0:46:320:46:37

is what you implement in this

country, you do not do it like you

0:46:370:46:41

are suggesting, the connection with

the single market is completely

0:46:410:46:45

irrelevant in this case.

I have

watched all of my life against the

0:46:450:46:52

exploitation of workers and against

the double exploitation of workers,

0:46:520:46:56

expressed are those who are migrant

workers that are often brought in in

0:46:560:47:01

order to be paid a lesser rate than

the going rate for local workers. It

0:47:010:47:06

is about making sure that people

have equality of treatment,

0:47:060:47:09

something I have walked for all of

my adult life and that Jeremy Corbyn

0:47:090:47:15

has campaigned for as well.

Are you

not embarrassed about this? Surely

0:47:150:47:19

from the point of view of the Labour

Party, the idea that a party with

0:47:190:47:26

your international traditions can be

criticised for parochialism and

0:47:260:47:28

xenophobia by Scottish

Nationalists... Anyon, things have

0:47:280:47:34

come to a pretty pass, have they

not?

Scottish Nationalists hurl all

0:47:340:47:39

kind of insults at the Scottish

Labour Party, past, present and no

0:47:390:47:42

doubt future, but I do not pay too

much credence to the allegations

0:47:420:47:47

that have been made. I think it is a

cheap stunt to try to score a party

0:47:470:47:53

political points around what is a

very serious issue, because Brexit,

0:47:530:47:57

no matter what you think of single

market membership, Brexit is a

0:47:570:48:03

hugely important political challenge

that we all this and I would have

0:48:030:48:05

thought that over the course of the

last few weeks we have demonstrated

0:48:050:48:09

the importance of cross-party

working within the Scottish

0:48:090:48:11

Parliament to ensure that the

Continuity Bill is past.

We are

0:48:110:48:17

running out of time, on the single

market, if you are like the majority

0:48:170:48:23

possibly of the Scottish public that

think it is important to stay within

0:48:230:48:27

the single market, many young people

believe that is the case, and

0:48:270:48:30

probably a majority of your own

party think it is important to

0:48:300:48:33

remain in the single market, if

there is a general election shortly,

0:48:330:48:37

which is what both you and Jeremy

Corbyn would like, it issued advice

0:48:370:48:40

to be that if you want to remain in

the single market, fought Scottish

0:48:400:48:45

Nationalists or Lib Dem?

No, because

the SNP want to take us out of the

0:48:450:48:50

UK single market, which is worth

four times as many jobs as the

0:48:500:48:54

European Union single market is the

Scottish economy. So I do not think

0:48:540:48:58

voting for the SNP would solve any

problems whatsoever.

What about

0:48:580:49:02

Liberal Democrat?

I do not think

many people would consider the

0:49:020:49:07

Liberal Democrats are on the verge

of forming a UK Government.

But it

0:49:070:49:12

is that choice that must be made. If

I vote for the Labour Party I am

0:49:120:49:17

voting to come out of the single

market.

Gordon, the SNP can never

0:49:170:49:22

form a UK Government, the Lib Dems

do not look like they are going to

0:49:220:49:26

form one any time now. If people

would like to see a change in this

0:49:260:49:29

country, they

0:49:290:49:34

country, they must abort the Labour

Party in. But a vote for the Labour

0:49:350:49:40

Party is a vote to be the single

market. No. We will debate the

0:49:400:49:44

proposition that the conference this

morning which will include Keir

0:49:440:49:46

Starmer's six tests which include

how we can reclaim the benefits of

0:49:460:49:51

the single market and that is

broader Labour Party stands.

Richard

0:49:510:49:57

Leonard, thank you very much, we

will have to leave it there.

Thank

0:49:570:50:00

you, God, thank you so much. --

thank you Gordon.

0:50:000:50:06

Over the past 40 years,

The Scottish Youth Theatre has been

0:50:060:50:09

responsible for kick-starting

the careers of many young actors

0:50:090:50:11

which have gone on to huge success,

such as Karen Gillan,

0:50:110:50:13

Kate Dickie and Gerard Butler.

0:50:130:50:15

But this week, the organisation

announced its imminent closure,

0:50:150:50:17

after failing to secure regular

funding from the arts

0:50:170:50:19

agency, Creative Scotland.

0:50:190:50:20

A campaign's been launched to keep

the youth theatre open.

0:50:200:50:23

At the same time, there have

been questions about

0:50:230:50:24

the funding decision.

0:50:240:50:25

In a moment we'll hear from the boss

of Creative Scotland, but first,

0:50:250:50:29

Andrew Black reports on what's been

a tense week for

0:50:290:50:31

the arts in Scotland.

0:50:310:50:39

Add these Scottish Youth Theatre's

based in Glasgow, young actors are

0:50:450:50:50

walking on a performance based on

the theme of taking audacious steps.

0:50:500:50:54

These performers been working as a

part of the year Theatre's national

0:50:540:50:58

ensemble, which will tour Scotland

in the summer. As things stand, it

0:50:580:51:03

could be the last production it ever

puts on. For these performance, it

0:51:030:51:07

is vital the Youth Theatre stays

open.

There are rather youth

0:51:070:51:14

theatres, but there aren't ones that

can say they are Scotland's youth

0:51:140:51:17

Theatre. I've worked with people

from as far afield as Orkney and

0:51:170:51:26

Shetland and Inverness and Dumfries,

it is encompassing of everyone in

0:51:260:51:29

Scotland.

What SYT does is provide

extraordinary support for young

0:51:290:51:36

people who are not just going to be

actors, but support staff as well.

0:51:360:51:43

The bosses say it may close this

summer. A third of its budget is

0:51:430:51:52

provided but limited funds means it

may not be able to support the Youth

0:51:520:51:56

Theatre. One way it hopes to

continue is through securing direct

0:51:560:52:01

funding as part of national company

status for the Youth Theatre.

Were

0:52:010:52:06

not looking for a simple hand-out.

We want to be strategic with this.

0:52:060:52:09

We have a way to go to court weird

that title, but we're absolutely a

0:52:090:52:16

day for that. I just hope there is

enough of a conversation that can

0:52:160:52:21

get us somewhere quickly, because

time is not on our side.

Actress

0:52:210:52:29

Kate Dickie is one of several

international stars forgot how had

0:52:290:52:33

to make Scottish Youth Theatre.

I

feel we have to fight to keep SYT

0:52:330:52:39

going. It offers something unique.

Unique to our country and to bring

0:52:390:52:47

any kids and young people from all

over to work together and put on

0:52:470:52:52

plays, not just acting, directing,

writing -

0:52:520:52:56

it keeps that pathway open for our

young people.

The theatre has had

0:52:560:53:01

some good news -

and entrepreneur has put up cash to

0:53:010:53:05

allow the year theatre as Mike

national ensemble to tour in the

0:53:050:53:08

summer.

I spent time with the

ensemble this week, these are young

0:53:080:53:16

kids ranging from 13 upwards. The

immediate thing you notice is their

0:53:160:53:21

confidence. It is bubbling out of

them. Big ten sing, they can dance,

0:53:210:53:27

they can do anything. Just at the

drop of a hat, at an age where I

0:53:270:53:34

would've run a from something like

that. You can see that plays a huge

0:53:340:53:39

role in their own self-esteem and

confidence.

It has been a tense time

0:53:390:53:46

at the Scottish Youth Theatre, its

leaders are hoping to agree a

0:53:460:53:50

long-term future solution when they

meet the Scottish Government next

0:53:500:53:55

week. Meanwhile, greater Scotland

says it is working with the theatre

0:53:550:53:57

and other funding options. --

Creative Scotland says it is working

0:53:570:54:02

with the Theatre.

0:54:020:54:07

I am joined by Janet Archer, the

chief executive Creative Scotland.

0:54:070:54:11

Why did you stop their money?

0:54:110:54:16

They made an application last year

alongside 184 other organisations

0:54:160:54:19

for a pot of money which was about

£33 million a year. We weren't able

0:54:190:54:29

to find all the applications.

But

waiting to fund then?

Obviously, I

0:54:290:54:37

can't go into the detail of the

application, what I can say is I had

0:54:370:54:42

a good conversation with Jacky

Hardacre on Friday, she told me she

0:54:420:54:46

is not asking for a reversal of the

decision we made about regular

0:54:460:54:49

funding. We have been talking to

Scottish Youth Theatre about other

0:54:490:54:54

options in terms of Creative

Scotland funding and we will

0:54:540:54:55

continue to do that.

So they are not

now asking for the money?

Scottish

0:54:550:55:02

Youth Theatre is asking for funding,

they have accepted that regular

0:55:020:55:06

funding decisions have been made, so

were talking about project funding,

0:55:060:55:10

a different programme that we run.

We find 121 organisations through

0:55:100:55:15

regular funding. We funded last year

321 organisations through project

0:55:150:55:22

funding, the type of funding we are

talking about now. It is a different

0:55:220:55:25

form of funding, not the same

amounts, but can apply for up to two

0:55:250:55:32

years' funding. For more than one

project, and it is flexible, you

0:55:320:55:37

don't have to wait for a deadline,

in the wake that you have with

0:55:370:55:41

regular funding.

Silica get some of

this project funding, perhaps?

Is

0:55:410:55:46

because an application, they could.

-- if they put in an application,

0:55:460:55:53

they could. It helps if they have

partners on board. With regular

0:55:530:55:59

funding, Creative Scotland is about

22% of the overall mix, so there is

0:55:590:56:04

a range of other backers and

supporters. It Scottish Youth

0:56:040:56:09

Theatre is able to galvanise support

from other places and the master us

0:56:090:56:13

for a funding application of a

different kind -- come to us for an

0:56:130:56:19

application of a different kind...

The point of regular funding as it

0:56:190:56:24

helps an organisation plan ahead

over a number of years. You're

0:56:240:56:26

simply can't do that?

You can apply

for up to two years through project

0:56:260:56:35

funding. It's not the same as

regular funding.

What kind of money

0:56:350:56:39

were talking about? They £200,000,

their budget is around 600,000 a

0:56:390:56:45

year. I were talking about much less

than that with project funding?

The

0:56:450:56:52

guidelines say you can apply for up

to £200,000 or 150 with

0:56:520:56:58

permission...

Is that per annum or

per project?

Per project, but some

0:56:580:57:06

organisations have managed to work

project funding in a way that helps

0:57:060:57:11

them the more flexible.

To be clear,

what you seem to be suggesting is

0:57:110:57:18

that if they put an application for

project funding, they could in

0:57:180:57:22

theory end up with the same matter

money they got out of regular

0:57:220:57:25

funding?

That is possible. It is

under huge pressure, so we are only

0:57:250:57:31

able to fund one in three of

applications that come in. However

0:57:310:57:37

there is a possibility that Scottish

Youth Theatre good apply for project

0:57:370:57:41

funding and be successful.

I still

don't quite understand the widely

0:57:410:57:46

can get regular funding? I take your

point that you have a lot of

0:57:460:57:53

applications, a but this is a

long-standing organisation that has

0:57:530:57:58

been successful, why did you decide

now that you couldn't continue to

0:57:580:58:02

fund them on a regular basis?

Obviously, we had to make decisions

0:58:020:58:07

based on the application were

received at the time, which was last

0:58:070:58:12

April. We had more applications...

The implication is that the

0:58:120:58:15

applications from people who got

money had more merit?

We base our

0:58:150:58:21

decisions based on the merit of the

applications we received. We also

0:58:210:58:27

wanted to extend opportunity for

audiences and people across Scotland

0:58:270:58:30

to be able to access the range of

art forms and companies of different

0:58:300:58:38

sizes across the country. So we had

to look at the applications that

0:58:380:58:44

came into us. We assess them on

their strengths of artistic content

0:58:440:58:50

and management validity. Some of the

others were better, yes. When

0:58:500:59:00

organisations are not successful,

that is the case.

One of the options

0:59:000:59:07

under discussion is the idea of

becoming a national company, which

0:59:070:59:11

is a technical designation which

means your money would not come from

0:59:110:59:14

you at Creative Scotland, rather

directly from the Scottish

0:59:140:59:18

Government. Do you think it's a good

idea for them to get that statist?

0:59:180:59:26

That's for the Government to

consider, I don't think it is

0:59:260:59:31

appropriate for me to comment on

that just now.

But and might be

0:59:310:59:34

helpful to then if you were to say

you supported that?

We're

0:59:340:59:44

disappointed they didn't talk to us

about this subject, because we are

0:59:440:59:51

in dialogue with them until a few

days ago and having what we thought

0:59:510:59:57

were productive conversations and

relations to options around funding

0:59:571:00:01

elsewhere.

Are using that if they

told you they might have to close

1:00:011:00:05

down, you would have given them some

money?

We will continue the

1:00:051:00:12

conversations around alternative

funding, not just from Creative

1:00:121:00:16

Scotland, because we are only one

part of the mix. I think at some for

1:00:161:00:20

everyone to recognise that a our

funding in the overall mix is 22%.

1:00:201:00:29

Can you perhaps not give a

guarantee, but some sort of

1:00:291:00:33

guarantee, do you think that between

yourself and the other people you've

1:00:331:00:38

been talking about getting involved

in this, perhaps, you can stop this

1:00:381:00:44

organisation having to close in

July, as they say they may have

1:00:441:00:46

today?

We have been having serious

conversations about options with

1:00:461:00:52

Scottish Youth Theatre, we as a

normalisation understand Youth

1:00:521:01:00

Theatre very well, I started my own

career at the Welsh Youth Theatre,

1:01:001:01:06

we would hope everyone with a stake

in Scottish Youth Theatre's future

1:01:061:01:10

to come forward. They have a

magnificent voice in support across

1:01:101:01:17

the country.

We have to leave it

there. Thank you for coming in this

1:01:171:01:23

morning.

Thank you.

1:01:231:01:31

To explore the future

of the Scottish Youth Theatre

1:01:311:01:33

a little further, I'm joined now

by Joan McAlpine MSP,

1:01:331:01:36

who's the convener of

Holyrood's Culture Committee.

1:01:361:01:38

First, I want is BT about Richard

Leonard. Nicola Sturgeon said he had

1:01:381:01:44

-- Nicola Sturgeon said Jeremy

Corbyn had used language that

1:01:441:01:50

sounded like Nigel Farage, which was

flatly rejected by Richard Leonard?

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I think it was disappointing Richard

Leonard didn't condemn it, because

1:01:561:01:59

that type of language used by Nigel

Farage and others whips up

1:01:591:02:05

aggression towards immigrants as we

have seen that since the Brexit

1:02:051:02:07

vote. I

1:02:071:02:12

vote. I think it's our role as

responsible politicians to speak

1:02:131:02:15

against that. I agree that

immigrants have contributed

1:02:151:02:21

enormously to this country and

politicians in the Labour Party

1:02:211:02:24

should be doing the same thing.

As a

reason for staying outside the

1:02:241:02:29

single market, you will buy it?

It

is absurd. Richard Leonard talks

1:02:291:02:34

about his credentials as a trade

unionist, trade unions once us to

1:02:341:02:42

stay in the single market. In the

SNP, we want powers to come to the

1:02:421:02:50

Scottish Parliament but the Scottish

Labour Party didn't support us in

1:02:501:02:56

that.

OK, Scottish Youth Theatre,

you heard Janet Archer, the message

1:02:561:03:01

seems to be that we might well come

up with money?

I think this exposes

1:03:011:03:08

a real problem with creative

Scotland's regular funding process.

1:03:081:03:14

A couple of weeks ago, my committee

had Janet Archer in the chair in

1:03:141:03:21

front of the test act and were

dissatisfied with the answers given

1:03:211:03:25

on how they make those decisions.

This isn't the first decision they

1:03:251:03:28

have reversed. Although they are not

talking about reversing this

1:03:281:03:32

particular decision, Ducati the

reverse decisions a couple of weeks

1:03:321:03:37

ago as a result of outcry, and they

admitted before my committee the

1:03:371:03:40

process needed reviewed and they

came and gave an apology. So you

1:03:401:03:46

then have to look at organisations

like Scottish Youth Theatre who were

1:03:461:03:50

not successful in that process that

Janet Archer has already said was

1:03:501:03:56

flawed, no wonder they are upset.

She says they spoke to him and they

1:03:561:04:01

no longer want the regular funding?

They said they had been in dialogue

1:04:011:04:07

with Creative Scotland since the

decision was made, but I have been

1:04:071:04:12

speaking to the Scottish Youth

Theatre and they told me they had

1:04:121:04:16

had one meeting with Creative

Scotland when they were told there

1:04:161:04:23

is open project funding and nothing

else. This is a process that takes

1:04:231:04:27

time. Other companies that missed

out on regular funding were offered

1:04:271:04:31

transitional funding. Scottish Youth

Theatre were not, because they

1:04:311:04:36

weren't previously regularly funded

organisation. They had been here

1:04:361:04:40

before, Creative Scotland four years

ago wouldn't fund the Scottish Youth

1:04:401:04:44

Theatre and the Scottish Government

had to come in then. I know the

1:04:441:04:48

Scottish Government is working hard

on getting something together,

1:04:481:04:52

because I don't think you can treat

this organisation this in way as

1:04:521:04:57

others. This is our National Youth

Theatre. The arts Council of England

1:04:571:05:02

find a National Youth Theatre. Janet

mentioned her background in Wales.

1:05:021:05:11

If this was something going on in

Scottish Ballet or opera, you

1:05:111:05:14

wouldn't close them down, you would

find a way to fix it.

That brings up

1:05:141:05:20

another point, the companies you've

mentioned, these so-called national

1:05:201:05:26

companies, they're directly funded

by the Government, not Creative

1:05:261:05:28

Scotland. One idea is that the

Scottish Youth Theatre could become

1:05:281:05:32

a national company. The woman who

runs it said that she had a way to

1:05:321:05:37

go to get to that stage, do you

think that would be a good idea?

I

1:05:371:05:41

think that was honest of Jacky. We

have a number of national companies,

1:05:411:05:48

one particular dance company did get

regular funding from Creative

1:05:481:05:52

Scotland, and there are used for

choirs who get that funding as well.

1:05:521:05:58

You would have to look at the

National youth performing companies

1:05:581:06:01

as a whole. The Government has a

great strategy for developing a

1:06:011:06:06

youth arts and it is very much about

giving access to everyone and

1:06:061:06:10

setting up youth hugs all over the

country. There is another strand,

1:06:101:06:18

which is your elite youth performing

companies, if you like, of your most

1:06:181:06:22

talented youngsters. Perhaps we need

to think a little differently about

1:06:221:06:26

that. In sports, we want all young

people to have access to sports,

1:06:261:06:32

Akashi we agree there are very

talented youngsters who could go on

1:06:321:06:36

medal at Olympic Games, and they

have additional investment. I think

1:06:361:06:41

that is the wager be

thank you very

much.

1:06:411:06:46

Now it's time to look back

over events and forwards

1:06:461:06:48

to the week ahead.

1:06:481:06:51

I'm joined now by a comedian who's

also a political commentator

1:06:511:06:54

and former political adviser

to senior Labour politicians,

1:06:541:06:56

Ayesha Hazarika.

1:06:561:06:57

And alongside her,

the political editor

1:06:571:06:59

of the Daily Record,

David Clegg.

1:06:591:07:00

Welcome both.

1:07:001:07:07

Richard Leonard, these remarks that

were very controversial that Jeremy

1:07:071:07:12

Corbyn made and have been criticised

by Nicola Sturgeon and by Ian Murray

1:07:121:07:16

and Kezia Dugdale, what do you make

of that? Do the Labour Party need to

1:07:161:07:21

tread carefully?

Yes, I think so. I

worry that this was more a badly

1:07:211:07:29

written line in the speech. I am not

sure that some of the context that

1:07:291:07:33

has been taken from it is correct.

Jeremy Corbyn has spoken in the past

1:07:331:07:38

about the way that immigration and

freedom of movement could

1:07:381:07:41

potentially lower wages. Is there

any evidence for that, it is

1:07:411:07:49

difficult to pinpoint Evra is. But

that is a different discussion to

1:07:491:07:51

suggest that he does not want

migrants coming in.

That is a

1:07:511:07:59

different issue. What do you make of

it?

Do you agree with David that the

1:07:591:08:04

language could have been different?

I was surprised that Jeremy Corbyn

1:08:041:08:06

went there. It was clumsy, whenever

the Labour Party goes into talking

1:08:061:08:11

about immigration, it is difficult.

Yes, Gordon Brown talking about

1:08:111:08:16

British jobs for British workers.

We

had an immigration mug that went

1:08:161:08:21

down badly at the 2015 campaign. To

take a step back, immigration was a

1:08:211:08:26

huge issue in terms of the Brexit

vote and was Labour Party members

1:08:261:08:34

are comfortable with it or not, at

some point we will have the article

1:08:341:08:37

it a policy on immigration. The idea

of equating Jeremy Corbyn to Nigel

1:08:371:08:41

Farage is ridiculous. The criticism

against them was that he was someone

1:08:411:08:46

who wanted open borders, Nigel

Farage has said that people from

1:08:461:08:48

other countries are ripping off our

NHS, he said that people from other

1:08:481:08:57

countries are bringing diseases and

things like that.

Arguably, even

1:08:571:08:59

from inside the Labour Party,

presumably, the argument would be

1:08:591:09:01

that that kind of language that

Jeremy Corbyn used is giving the

1:09:011:09:05

opportunity to other organisations,

quality the SNP of the Lib Dems are

1:09:051:09:09

the Conservatives, to suggest

otherwise. This is dog resting.

Any

1:09:091:09:15

time you talk about immigration

there is that danger. What he said

1:09:151:09:18

was about trying to stamp out

exploitation which we would all

1:09:181:09:21

agree with. There has been a list

out this week of companies in the UK

1:09:211:09:26

that are not paying the minimum wage

and many staff that are not getting

1:09:261:09:30

that the minimum wage are migrants.

I say this as the daughter of

1:09:301:09:34

immigrants, you have to protect

everyone across the piece.

1:09:341:09:41

everyone across the piece. But what

I also think is happening is

1:09:421:09:45

politics within the Labour Party.

David, on that, if this fact

1:09:451:09:48

becoming this conference that one

sentence or half a sentence, a

1:09:481:09:52

surrogate for a division of the

single market?

I think the single

1:09:521:09:57

market is a surrogate for a wider

division. The hard left and the

1:09:571:10:02

moderates. On immigration, a final

point, it is a failure of all the

1:10:021:10:07

political parties that they have not

made the case for immigration, they

1:10:071:10:10

have been scared about what voters

think on this and they have been

1:10:101:10:14

hesitant to actually suggest that

immigration could be great for the

1:10:141:10:17

country and this is why. It leads to

problems when you talk about that

1:10:171:10:21

issue. On the wider point of the

single market we have seen this big

1:10:211:10:26

bunfight in the last two days at the

Scottish Labour Party Conference

1:10:261:10:29

about other this morning there would

be a vote on the single market or

1:10:291:10:34

not and the immigration issue plays

into that but it is about a wider

1:10:341:10:37

split in the party which is between

supporters of Jeremy Corbyn and

1:10:371:10:44

moderates. The idea that the hard

left suddenly is not for the single

1:10:441:10:47

market and the moderates are all for

it, they are mapping themselves onto

1:10:471:10:50

this division based on a wider

split.

But there is the issue of how

1:10:501:10:58

radical Richard Leonard and Jeremy

Corbyn really are. That was my point

1:10:581:11:00

in asking Richard Leonard about PFI

contracts, because it sounded like a

1:11:001:11:08

revolutionist speech! It turns out

all he really means was that we will

1:11:081:11:11

have a chat with these companies and

we might ask them to the negotiate

1:11:111:11:19

but there's not much that they can

do about it.

There are some

1:11:191:11:22

explosive headlines and then when

you drill down to it, it is being

1:11:221:11:25

dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

What is interesting is that Jeremy

1:11:251:11:28

Corbyn gets elected as this

terrifying sort of radical, and as

1:11:281:11:32

he is doing better and better than

the polls, and that the last general

1:11:321:11:36

election, in some ways, you find

that the closer they get to power or

1:11:361:11:40

the perception of power, they are

starting to moderate their views and

1:11:401:11:44

try to find some compromises. I

think that is interesting politics.

1:11:441:11:48

You could argue that as the old

politics rather than the new

1:11:481:11:53

politics. Remember, Jeremy Corbyn

went into the last general election

1:11:531:11:57

campaign having campaigned against

Trident his whole adult life,

1:11:571:12:00

compromising and suggesting they

would put the renewal of Trident in

1:12:001:12:05

the general election manifesto.

The

danger, particularly for young

1:12:051:12:09

people that flock to the Labour

Party over the past few years, is

1:12:091:12:13

that if it turns out that all of

this radical stuff is really just

1:12:131:12:16

the same as what moderate Labour is

saying when it comes down to brass

1:12:161:12:19

tacks, they will not be very

impressed.

I do think there has been

1:12:191:12:24

a distinct shift in the radical

vision of what they want to do in

1:12:241:12:27

the future. When you are talking

about a private company...

1:12:271:12:37

about a private company... I was in

Dundee, Ninewells Hospital is a

1:12:371:12:39

running sore in that city, it is one

of the few hospitals will be have to

1:12:391:12:43

pay for car parking and they are

making money from that. The buyout

1:12:431:12:46

that contract would cost the

government a lot of money and that

1:12:461:12:48

is probably why it has not been done

by the current Scottish Government.

1:12:481:12:51

But going forward he has suggested

that they will take private

1:12:511:12:53

companies out of the health service

and that is a fundamental

1:12:531:12:55

difference. So I believe that there

is radical and intent, but whether

1:12:551:13:02

you can retrofitted to the previous

policies, I take that point, it is

1:13:021:13:05

difficult, you cannot just rip up

contracts without paying penalties.

1:13:051:13:07

We will have to leave it there.

Thank you both. Are you sure, people

1:13:071:13:14

can come to see you as a stand-up

comic, no longer as a political

1:13:141:13:20

advisor!

Some people would suggest

you could put a cigarette paper

1:13:201:13:24

between the two! Yes, I am on

tonight at 8pm.

Is it easy to sell

1:13:241:13:28

tickets?

You would be surprised!

Politics and comedy are so close

1:13:281:13:33

together right now.

Thank you both.

1:13:331:13:36

That's all from us this week.

1:13:361:13:39

I'll be back at the

same time next week.

1:13:391:13:40

Until then, goodbye.

1:13:401:13:45

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