21/04/2013 Sunday Politics South East

of power - will being part of the coalition government hurt Lib Dem

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1376 seconds

I'm Natalie Graham and this is the Sunday Politics in the South East.

Coming up later: As Brighton and Hove struggles to deal with its

substance abuse problem, are officially sanctioned drug rooms for

addicts the right solution? Joining me in the studio today is

the Labour Party's Baroness Maggie Jones and Brighton and Hove's Green

Council leader Jason Kitcat. First, patients have given the Brighton and

Sussex University Hospital Trust poor marks for accident and

emergency care. The survey by the Care Quality Commission rates the

Royal Sussex and the Princess Royal as among the worst in the country.

It comes weeks after the A&E unit at the Royal Sussex was plunged into

crisis because of delays and overcrowding - a situation echoed in

East Kent hospital A&E units shortly afterwards. So is this all about

resources or mismanagement? Jason, your council is meeting to discuss

this shortly. Or is there a specific problem? I think there is a

combination of factors. The reforms are putting huge pressure on these

trusts to make savings, but we are also seeing the reorganisation

leaving some gaps in previously connected services. We are

struggling to deal with that and we want to be as supportive as we can

of the NHS, but we can't go one within a knee performing in this

way. -- we can't go on with NAND performing in this way. People don't

think they are being seen adequately at their doctors. That is part of

the pressure the NHS is under. Maggie Jones, what do you think?

think it is driven from the centre, which nobody wanted and which they

promised they wouldn't do. I think David Cameron has broken his promise

on help service reform. Obviously we have to address the local problems

that have arisen. Social services need to step in to provide places

for the elderly as well as providing more out of hours care for some of

the people who turn up at A&E. Very often those people shouldn't really

be there, they should be supported by other services rather than A&E,

which should be a place of last resort. This is one of the places

where the pressure is popping out. During a visit to Eastbourne this

week, Liberal Democrat Treasury secretary Danny Alexander said he

believes his party could win control of East Sussex in the May county

council elections. But Willie 's party's national association with

the Tories help or hinder its chances on a local level? And why is

the Green party planning to target Lib Dem seats in the county? Lucinda

This is the County Down as East Sussex. The Lib Dems have

traditionally done well here, but that -- but could their popularity

be weakening? This is the first time in decades that they are fighting

county elections while in government, but how is their

newfound national power affecting their local success? It is three

years since the Liberal Democrats formed a coalition with the

Conservatives. Since then, their majority at Eastbourne Borough

Council has been significantly reduced, and last year they lost

control of Lewes district Council after holding it for 20 years.

Here, the Lib Dems currently have 13 seats. The Conservatives have 29,

Labour have four and there are pre-independence. -- three

independents. We know that they're standing has plummeted. Most

appealing -- opinion polls show them as about 20%. Despite that,

ambitions in East Sussex are high. Danny Alexander was in Eastbourne

this week, saying the party could win back control of the county from

the Conservatives, or at least leave them with no overall control. This

is a Lib Dem led local authority which is transforming the local

economy, unlike the wasteful Conservatives. They are spending

money on the wrong things and as a result allowing local services to

fall apart. But retiring council leader Peter Jones disagrees.

totally disillusioned all. The Lib Dems have campaigned unsuccessfully

to stop this incinerator being built. They recently called the 20

mph speed limits in around 100 roads, but that didn't succeed

either. Peter Jones accuses them of lacking coherent policy ideas. They

are a totally ineffective opposition. I get more

intellectually consistent opposition from the four Labour members then I

do from the voting Lib Dem members. They define themselves by what they

are against and not what they are for. I think people want to hear

from politicians who can help. They don't want to hear that you are

against this road or this incinerator. Are they going to

improve the schools and provide better care for the healthcare and

the elderly? It's all of those things that people really want to

hear about. The Lib Dems just don't have a message on any of that.

how could they take East Sussex back? Many people believe transport

infrastructure is a weakness in the county, but there is criticism the

Lib Dems don't have a clear transport Secretary -- strategy.

need good transport to boost the economy and attract private

investment. We have huge deprivation and poverty. From what we've seen of

the Lib Dem policy, they are not putting that at the centre of their

manifesto for the East Sussex county council elections, which is an

absolute disappointment and shame. To add to the Lib Dems worries, the

Green party is targeting Lewes, dealing -- fielding candidates in

all of its seats. The party leader hopes that disillusioned voters will

see them as a viable alternative. It's a place that has real community

spirit and wants to operate as a strong local economy. It is the sort

of place where Green is a natural fit. There is a strong awareness of

issues and the need for a different kind of politics. As the Lib Dems

tried to retake East Sussex, are they realistic? Or will fading

national and local support see them lose seats, not gain them? Joining

us from our Brighton Studios is a coalition transport Minister Norman

Baker. You must have given as a lot of thought. Why have you been

punished so much more than your coalition partners? Well, you are

out of date. What I'm finding on the doorstep now is actually a lot of

support for the Lib Dems. The Conservatives are the ones who were

looking divided nationally, not ours. In East Sussex, it is a clear

fight between the Lib Dems and the Conservatives. It sounds like you

share Danny Alexander's confidence that you could retake the county

council. I think it is possible. I'm not saying it's likely. But you will

either have Lib Dem councillors or Tory councillors. That is what has

always happened in the East Sussex. The Lib Dem vote is quite strong,

despite people talking about opinion polls. Two years ago, you mention we

lost by a handful of votes. That is now back in our control. None of the

Greens got a look in. I know only five councils held elections, but

you lost your share of the vote from 24% to 15%. Even if the Tories

suffered the same lack of support, because they are in government, you

can't afford to lose the seats and they can. I did think that is true

either. We are likely to see some Tory boats going to you. -- some

Tory votes going to UKIP. That is very likely scenario across Sussex.

I'd thought you lost 14% of your votes in Eastleigh despite the win.

Anyway, the Green party, as we just heard, they are knocking on the door

in Sussex. They have become the opposition. You must be worried

about what they could do on your doorstep? I'm not worried. Actually,

they are becoming quite unpopular in Brighton through the leadership of

the council down there. Caroline Lucas may be well respected as the

-- as an MP but the party is not respected. They are going

backwards. They won no seats at a district level. I don't think they

will make any progress. Let's talk about some of the specific

criticisms of your party made not least by Peter Jones, the retiring

leader of the council. He says you are an ineffective opposition and

you don't come up with constructive policies. That is one of your

problems locally in East Sussex. Well, Peter Jones says he wants to

have positive policies but spends most of his time criticising the Lib

Dems. We do have positive policies. We want the council to deal with

roads properly. The Conservatives are wasting hundreds of thousands of

pounds giving compensation to drivers as a consequence of their

failure to help their roads improved. Let's talk about what the

Conservatives are doing. They have built a library and a link road,

things that your party opposed. Could it be they are doing a very

good job considering there is a recession? They are certainly doing

quite well on libraries, credit is given where it is due. But the

Conservatives have deliberately spent the money they get

disproportionately in Hastings. Elsewhere in the county, people have

a right to feel aggrieved. This was the decision to move resources

across. Nobody in the west of the county should vote conservative at

all. We will see in the next few weeks whether they take your advice.

Jason Kitcat was great dismissive of the Greens, partly because of your

council, which is so unpopular. Well, no one actually knows what the

Lib Dems stand for, so I think he is overambitious. Clearly we are not

targeting the entirety of the country. But we are the only

opposition party in Sussex. We have a very strong base in Lewis and I

would expect us to make progress. You only won 5% of the vote in the

last county council elections. don't know enough to give you a

percentage for this time, but we have a strong position on the town

council and would like to build on that. Clearly, this is uncharted

territory as to how these elections will go. But the vote for the three

main parties has been in constant decline over the past three years.

That is a significant change in politics. I'm sorry, Jason, the

difference is you now run Brighton Council. Your record,

unfortunately, is not something you can be proud of. You have a

reputation for being a degree -- chaotic, disorganised council.

delivered under spends this year. Recycling, for example, your record

is very poor. There are no collections -- no elections being

held in Brighton and Hove, so let's look at the wider south-east. The

problem is Labour should be capitalising on the back that these

two parties are in power, and you're not. The Greens appear to be taking

the seats you should be. Obviously, we aim to increase our share of the

vote. It is difficult for us in the south, obviously. But we hope we

will improve our share of the vote in the key marginal seats like

Crawley, like Hastings, which we hope to win at the next election. So

that's what we'll be looking for. you think you're number of

councillors will go up? I think so. Now, until recently, Brighton and

Hove was known as the drug death capital of the country. The city has

already looked at innovative solutions to deal with its substance

abuse problems. They include a trial prescribing heroin to addicts. A new

report from an independent commission endorses a radical plan

for officially sanctioned consumption rooms dashed places

where addicts can go to inject without fear of prosecution. Parts

of East Kent also have higher levels of drugtaking. Could these clinics

be an answer? Joining as is Graham Cox, the former head of Sussex CID.

You don't like this idea, do you? No, I'm very uncomfortable with it.

There is an issue of cost, finding the rooms, the nurses to supervise

people injecting themselves. I'd far rather see public money going on

successful abstinence -based treatment programmes then conducting

an experiment like this. I don't think the council and other public

authorities should be colluding with drug use in this way. It breaches

international treaties. The UN is firmly against it. There is a real

risk of further drug addicts to Brighton and Hove if we are seen as

having a soft, liberal approach. is interesting that you mention the

UN because actually this is tried in a lot of other countries. In

Vancouver, the amount of public drugtaking has gone down by 50%, and

it does save lives, so surely anything that reduces the number of

deaths is worth -- is worth spending money on? The international evidence

is far from compelling, actually. Some countries normally cited by

those cup -- those proposing liberalisation, such as Denmark and

Portugal, have come out firmly against these sorts of ideas. In

Sydney, for example, what seemed to happen is it just enables people to

continue taking drugs. Only 11% of the people using these rooms

actually accessed treatment as a result. What we seem to be doing is

accepting people should just carry on taking heroin and crack cocaine

with the collusion of the state. not sure the author of this report

would call it collusion. Their argument is, if somebody is going to

carry on taking these dangerous drugs, surely better they do it with

trained medical staff on hand to help if they get into difficulty,

rather than in some squalid basement or on the streets where they could

cause lots of other problems and possibly die. We should not just

enable them to carry on taking drops. That might drugs. -- carry on

taking drugs. I'm disappointed were going down this route and I had the

council will pull back when the time comes for a decision. Let's ask the

leader of the council. Jason, you are ultimately going to give the

go-ahead for this. What is your initial feeling? This is the report

of an independent commission. These are ten independent experts who have

reviewed huge amounts of evidence and come to a larger numbers back a

large number of recommendations. This is one of them. I strongly

disagree with Graham. The evidence suggests the way to reduce harm is

to try these rooms in a wider context, which is improving access

to treatment as part of those rooms. It has clearly been proven to

not only reduce harm but also save money. So I think these are worthy

of consideration. They have the backing of conservative and Tory MPs

in the city. I don't think this is a party political issue, but it is a

sensitive one. The Health Secretary said the government won't support

the grin -- the clinics because they contravene the law. Maggie, what

would you do? I think we need to have a grown-up debate about this. I

think anything that takes drugs off the Street, off the exploitation of

the drug pushers and puts it into a clinical setting where people can

have proper support and help, it's not just going to be somewhere where

they can take their drugs in their back on the street again. It has to

be part of a programme to help them get over their addiction. It has to

be seen as an illness. We need to stop having hysterical headlines and

start having a proper debate. I would like to see the detail, but it

is certainly worthy of debate. be clear, prohibition hasn't worked.

I suppose you could argue that it has worked. Drug deaths are falling.

So would you like to stick with what we're doing? I'm certainly in favour

of getting as many addicts into treatment as possible. But to say

that the current situation is not working dashed actually, drug use

and drug deaths are both currently going down. It is clearly illegal to

do this. It would require a change in the law in my opinion. I don't

want to see state sponsored opium dens in our city. Thank you for

joining us. Now, a time for a round-up of the week's events.

Medway Council is calling on bookmakers to sign a code of conduct

to tackle the problem gamblers. People do realise they have a

problem and don't want to be allowed into betting shops for their own

good. We could look at banning orders. Caroline Lucas wants urgent

action dashed -- to stop homophobic chanting at football supporters.

Another MP has challenged the Home Secretary to respond to criticism to

the way a police commissioner is recruiting has staff. But to Reza

mate told MPs it was for the voters to decide if PCTs were spending

their budgets wisely. The travellers are so close to this property. It is

12 metres. We discussed the problems facing and Barnes in Kent last week.

Jason, do you have any sympathy for her? People are growing up online

now. If we're going to forensically analysed everything done in their

youth growing up the moment they stick their heads above the parapet

to get involved in youth politics, that is sad. Is it it also naive not

to check somebody's background? You didn't have to do a lot of digging

to find out what she had said. is a real issued about the way the

PCC's are being monitored. I do think the government has set up an

ill thought out policy. But we do need to get young people in

politics. You can't I them down completely. They have to have some

freedom to express them for -- themselves, although I do think she

went overboard. Do you agree with to Reza may? I don't think the Home

Secretary should should have got involved, but there needs to be

control over how much is spent. were ill-advised to change the

PCC's. In the case of youth engagement in politics, we need to