08/06/2014 Sunday Politics South East


08/06/2014

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 08/06/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

David Cameron slaps down two of his most senior Cabinet ministers

:00:37.:00:42.

over their public row about Islamist extremism in schools.

:00:43.:00:47.

And it?s HER special advisor that has to resign.

:00:48.:00:53.

We'll talk to the Shadow Education Secretary live

:00:54.:00:57.

Should this man become the next President of the EU Commission?

:00:58.:01:01.

David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping Luxembourg Federalist

:01:02.:01:04.

But could the arch europhile yet get the top job?

:01:05.:01:14.

Here's to the quarter of a million votes.

:01:15.:01:16.

And we'll find out why this political party is celebrating with

:01:17.:01:21.

And in the South East. success may have cost UKIP two MEPs.

:01:22.:01:24.

It's been a bruising week for Kent's Police and Crime Commissioner

:01:25.:01:27.

Ann Barnes, we'll ask what the latest

:01:28.:01:30.

Has Boris Johnson deserted the suburbs and become a zone one man?

:01:31.:01:42.

And with me our panel of top political journalists,

:01:43.:01:46.

who are always squabbling among themselves, Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee

:01:47.:01:49.

and Janan Ganesh, who will be tweeting throughout the programme

:01:50.:01:51.

This morning's political news is dominated

:01:52.:01:56.

by the very public fall-out of Home Secretary Theresa May and

:01:57.:01:59.

The high viz blue on blue spat between two senior

:02:00.:02:03.

Conservatives centred around the Government's approach to tackling

:02:04.:02:05.

The row burst into the open ahead of the publication tomorrow of

:02:06.:02:11.

investigations into the so-called Trojan Horse plot in Birmingham

:02:12.:02:16.

where it is alleged several state schools have been covertly taken

:02:17.:02:19.

Mr Gove told The Times last week he was concerned that the Home Office

:02:20.:02:25.

was unwilling to tackle extremism at its roots.

:02:26.:02:28.

He said a robust response was needed to drain the swamp.

:02:29.:02:32.

In response, Mrs May's special advisor tweeted,

:02:33.:02:34.

"why is the Department for Education wanting to blame other people

:02:35.:02:37.

Lord knows what more they have overlooked on the subject of the

:02:38.:02:44.

An angry David Cameron ordered a speedy inquiry.

:02:45.:02:51.

Last night, Mr Gove apologised to the Prime Minister, while Ms May's

:02:52.:02:54.

Speaking on the BBC earlier this morning,

:02:55.:02:59.

this is what Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had to say.

:03:00.:03:04.

There's been a disciplinary matter within the Government,

:03:05.:03:07.

which the Prime Minister has dealt with in a very firm, clear way.

:03:08.:03:10.

There will be discipline in the Government.

:03:11.:03:12.

The main thing is the issue itself - tackling extremism in schools.

:03:13.:03:18.

The Government will be very clear, very robust about anything that s

:03:19.:03:24.

put children at risk - risk to their safety or learning.

:03:25.:03:42.

Let's look at the positive of this. Theresa May 's people of saying she

:03:43.:03:53.

has come off worse in theirs. Yelena Kushi is no more guilty than Michael

:03:54.:04:00.

Gove he was guilty of indiscretion. She is no more guilty. Even during

:04:01.:04:07.

13 years of new Labour 's psychodrama, I cannot remember an

:04:08.:04:12.

act of hostility quite as naked as direct as publishing on a website

:04:13.:04:23.

and intergovernmental letter. It suggests quite a lot of

:04:24.:04:26.

conservatives do not think they will win next time. Why would there be a

:04:27.:04:31.

leadership spat going on like this unless they thought there was a

:04:32.:04:38.

vacancy? Inside the Cabinet, Theresa May is getting quite a bashing. In

:04:39.:04:43.

the Sunday Times, someone has reported she is the date from hell.

:04:44.:04:49.

She sidles up to people and is nakedly ambitious. I think that is

:04:50.:04:54.

interesting. On the whole, nobody will understand the finesse

:04:55.:04:59.

differences of opinion. It is not serious, it is not serious, it is

:05:00.:05:04.

tactical. It'll be puzzling for most people and will probably fizzle out.

:05:05.:05:09.

Has the Prime Minister slapped it down or will it rumble on? On the

:05:10.:05:16.

politics of it, it will not fizzle out. What you have is Theresa May is

:05:17.:05:22.

deadly serious about replacing David Cameron, not dislodging him but

:05:23.:05:26.

replacing him if there is a vacancy. Michael Gove is deadly serious in

:05:27.:05:31.

ensuring George Osborne succeeds David Cameron. It will be that

:05:32.:05:36.

ongoing political rivalry. What is really interesting about this is the

:05:37.:05:39.

Prime Minister is absolutely fed up with both of them. He is fed up with

:05:40.:05:45.

Michael Gove full-size gearing of message. He had the row with Nick

:05:46.:05:50.

Clegg and he had a row with Theresa May. He named Charles Barr and

:05:51.:05:55.

criticised him in a lunch with the times. White brother he is the

:05:56.:06:04.

Security adviser at the Home Office. -- he is the security advisor. He is

:06:05.:06:13.

fed up with Theresa May for mounting an unannounced leader bid. What

:06:14.:06:18.

separates Theresa May from Michael Gove on dealing with extremism? The

:06:19.:06:25.

view from Michael Gove is that it shows no interest in Islamic

:06:26.:06:29.

extremism until it manifests in violent form. Theresa May is

:06:30.:06:34.

criticised for rolling back the programme which the previous Labour

:06:35.:06:40.

government introduced to do with the previous Labour government

:06:41.:06:44.

introduced to do with the Home Office has been made by other people

:06:45.:06:50.

and made when the Home Office was not run by Theresa May but previous

:06:51.:06:55.

home secretaries, even dating back to the Conservative government in

:06:56.:06:57.

the 1990s. It is about the laxity of the Government. Michael Gove has

:06:58.:07:03.

used extraordinary inflammatory language talking about draining the

:07:04.:07:08.

swamp. I think Theresa May 's view is you can very easily inflamed

:07:09.:07:12.

those emotions and create many more extremists the process. Michael Gove

:07:13.:07:19.

would say that his approach is entirely consistent with the speech

:07:20.:07:23.

the Prime Minister made to the Munich Security conference in 2011

:07:24.:07:24.

Munich Security conference in 2 11 when the Prime Minister talked about

:07:25.:07:29.

warp the grape great religion of Islam. The Birmingham school system

:07:30.:07:45.

is going to be one of the most reported systems in Europe.

:07:46.:07:51.

Joining me now from Kent is Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt.

:07:52.:07:54.

Should parents of Birmingham children be worried that some of

:07:55.:08:03.

their schools are in the grip of an Islamist takeover? I think parents

:08:04.:08:09.

in Birmingham schools will be very disappointed by the political

:08:10.:08:12.

infighting going on in the Government. The briefings, the

:08:13.:08:15.

resignations, the apologies. The real apology that Michael Gove needs

:08:16.:08:22.

to deliver it to the pupil -- the pupils and parents of Birmingham.

:08:23.:08:26.

There was a potential threat of radicalisation. He fell to act for

:08:27.:08:30.

four years. The Labour Party is asking, when did he know the fact

:08:31.:08:35.

that radicalisation could have been taking place? What has been going on

:08:36.:08:39.

for the last four years? What we in the Labour Party want to see if much

:08:40.:08:44.

stronger systems of local oversight and accountability to situations

:08:45.:08:47.

like this do not arise again. Is there, in your view, if some of the

:08:48.:08:52.

Birmingham schools, an Islamist takeover? What we have seen in the

:08:53.:09:02.

leaked Ofsted report so far is fears about cultural isolation and an

:09:03.:09:07.

overconcentration on Islamic teaching within the curriculum. We

:09:08.:09:12.

want young people to celebrate their cultural identity, celebrate

:09:13.:09:16.

themselves as Muslims. We also want them to have an education which

:09:17.:09:21.

makes them succeed in multicultural 21st-century Birmingham. We want to

:09:22.:09:25.

be quite tough on moves towards gender segregation, a restricted

:09:26.:09:32.

curriculum. Birmingham is a multicultural city. We need an

:09:33.:09:37.

education system which celebrates that. What is wrong with gender

:09:38.:09:41.

segregation? You went to an all boys school. Where you have gender

:09:42.:09:49.

segregation, we have had a long tradition in Catholic schooling

:09:50.:09:55.

Where you have a state education system, which is about gender

:09:56.:09:57.

equality between boys and girls, and equality between boys and girls and

:09:58.:10:02.

there is an unofficial policy of gender segregation, that is

:10:03.:10:05.

unacceptable. We should not be tarring communities with the same

:10:06.:10:10.

brush in terms of radicalisation. We do want to see a successful,

:10:11.:10:16.

multicultural education. Two years ago, Ofsted rated Parkview as

:10:17.:10:23.

outstanding. Now it looks like tomorrow it is going into special

:10:24.:10:29.

measures. What is it up to? I do think there is an issue for Ofsted

:10:30.:10:34.

that you can go from outstanding to inadequate so quickly. That is why

:10:35.:10:39.

we are asking for a new criteria to be introduced to look at a broad and

:10:40.:10:43.

balanced curriculum. We have healthy sex and relationship education.

:10:44.:10:50.

There is a real issue this morning as the BBC has been reporting on the

:10:51.:10:53.

night for the Department of Education. We are hearing that some

:10:54.:10:56.

of those involved in the schools were not allowed to open a free

:10:57.:11:00.

school on security grounds. They were allowed to allow one of the

:11:01.:11:04.

schools to be taken over as an academy. We have a lack of oversight

:11:05.:11:08.

and accountability in schools within Birmingham. What the Labour Party

:11:09.:11:13.

wants is a local director of school standards to make sure we challenge

:11:14.:11:21.

underperformance and make sure we get in confronting Islamic extremism

:11:22.:11:29.

when it was in power? I was speaking to Hazel blears and she was very

:11:30.:11:34.

clear about the prevent programme which they rolled out when in

:11:35.:11:42.

office. A very atomised and fragmented school system where every

:11:43.:11:50.

school is looked at from behind a desk in Whitehall and he put that

:11:51.:11:55.

together and you do have an increased risk of chances of

:11:56.:12:04.

radicalisation. You have attacked Mr Gove for gross negligence. Was it

:12:05.:12:11.

the same -- you attacked Mr Gove for gross negligence. We are dealing

:12:12.:12:20.

with a government which has been in since 2010. The Government needs to

:12:21.:12:25.

hold the executive to account. We note the Department Michael Gove was

:12:26.:12:34.

warned by a senior and respected head teacher about fears over

:12:35.:12:38.

radicalism. What did he know and what did he act upon? We are hearing

:12:39.:12:43.

more reports of conversations about fears, about radicalisation, taking

:12:44.:12:47.

over some of the governing bodies of schools. We need to know what

:12:48.:12:55.

ministers did. Let me continue. You mention the capital to prevent

:12:56.:12:57.

strategy. Was it gross negligence for Labour to regularly consult a

:12:58.:13:07.

man who once headed a group dedicated to making Britain an

:13:08.:13:13.

Islamic state and wrote a book about schools full of Taliban style

:13:14.:13:19.

decrees. I think the events in Birmingham are enormously

:13:20.:13:24.

significant. About the nature of multiculturalism, the nature of

:13:25.:13:28.

education, the role of civic education, the role of faith

:13:29.:13:32.

schools. I will say to you this morning that Birmingham City

:13:33.:13:36.

Council, Ofsted, the Labour Party, the Department for Education were

:13:37.:13:45.

all involved in this conversation. In 2010, ministers were warned about

:13:46.:13:49.

potential radicalisation of schools and they fell to act. We need to

:13:50.:13:56.

know why, for years on, they allowed this situation to exacerbate. When

:13:57.:14:00.

you look at the record of labour and this government 's record, there are

:14:01.:14:04.

plenty of examples where both of you fail to act. Would it not be better

:14:05.:14:09.

to drop the party politics and get together to confront this problem

:14:10.:14:15.

for the sake of the children? There are a number of reports going on in

:14:16.:14:21.

Birmingham. Some are led by the city council, some by the Department for

:14:22.:14:25.

Education. Labour MPs this morning have come forward with the Bishop of

:14:26.:14:28.

Birmingham talking about faith in schools. If you have a minister

:14:29.:14:34.

failing to do their job, if you have a minister being given warnings in

:14:35.:14:38.

2010 and failing to act on them for four years, the opposition has a

:14:39.:14:42.

role to hold the executive to account. This is about the safety

:14:43.:14:47.

and standards of teaching for pupils in Birmingham schools. It is about a

:14:48.:14:50.

great education for these young people so they can succeed in a

:14:51.:14:57.

modern, multicultural Britain. Do you agree with your Shadow Cabinet

:14:58.:15:02.

colleague, Rachel Reeves, that Labour' as core voters are

:15:03.:15:09.

abandoning the party? She was building on what Ed said the day

:15:10.:15:14.

after the elections in Berwick. We have to make sure those communities

:15:15.:15:19.

who we historically represent regard Labour as having a successful

:15:20.:15:22.

message for them. I am passionate about making sure we have great

:15:23.:15:26.

vocational and technical education, the great academic education in our

:15:27.:15:32.

schools. If we have more work to do to get people to the polling

:15:33.:15:38.

booths, we must do that. We must with listen to what she says.

:15:39.:15:48.

David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping the former PM of Luxembourg

:15:49.:15:51.

- named by one newspaper as 'the most dangerous man in Europe'

:15:52.:15:54.

because of his federalist views - from becoming the next president

:15:55.:15:57.

Mr Cameron has reportedly described Jean Claude Juncker as a 'face from

:15:58.:16:04.

the 80s who cannot solve the problems of the next five years .

:16:05.:16:07.

But with the German Chancellor Angela Merkel publicly backing Mr

:16:08.:16:10.

Juncker, it's not a dead cert that Mr Cameron can stop his appointment.

:16:11.:16:13.

This is what he had to say at the G7 summit earlier this week:

:16:14.:16:19.

It is important that we have people running the institutions of Europe

:16:20.:16:24.

who understand the need for change and reform. I would argue that view

:16:25.:16:28.

is widely shared amongst other heads of government and heads of state in

:16:29.:16:34.

the European Union. I am clear what I want to achieve for Britain's

:16:35.:16:39.

future, to secure Britain's placed in a reformed European Union and I

:16:40.:16:42.

have a strategy for delivering that, a strategy for dealing with an

:16:43.:16:46.

issue which I think if we walk away from it would see Britain drift

:16:47.:16:48.

towards the exits. We've been joined from Berlin

:16:49.:16:50.

by the German MEP Elmar Brok who is a senior figure in the EPP - that's

:16:51.:16:53.

the party backing Mr Juncker. He's also Chairman of the Union

:16:54.:16:56.

of European Federalists. And in our Newcastle newsroom is

:16:57.:17:01.

the former Conservative MEP Martin Callanan who until last month led

:17:02.:17:04.

the European Conservatives and Reformists group in Brussels.

:17:05.:17:08.

Welcome to you both. The United Kingdom, Sweden, Hungary,

:17:09.:17:23.

they don't want Mr Junker, the new Italian Prime Minister doesn't look

:17:24.:17:26.

keen either, should he bow out gracefully? First of all, he wants

:17:27.:17:33.

to have Mr Junker but he wants to have his conditions. Will he become

:17:34.:17:38.

president of the European Council, a high representative? It is a

:17:39.:17:45.

discussion to be had in the next three or four weeks until the

:17:46.:17:53.

European Parliament can elect the president of the European Council

:17:54.:17:55.

after the proposal of the European Council, which has to be done after

:17:56.:18:01.

consultation with the Parliament in the light of the European elections

:18:02.:18:07.

and by a majority vote. If not Mr Junker, then who? There are many

:18:08.:18:13.

available candidates, I am not going to mention them in front of someone

:18:14.:18:18.

so esteemed as Elmar Brok. Give us one name that you would prefer? The

:18:19.:18:24.

prime Minister of Sweden, Christine Lagarde, the minister from

:18:25.:18:29.

Lithuania, these are people who have a record of old reform. Junker is

:18:30.:18:38.

the ultimate Europe insider. We need radical inform. We need to respond

:18:39.:18:44.

to the message the electorate gave us in the elections -- radical

:18:45.:18:49.

reform. Junker said he had to lie in public, he allowed the security

:18:50.:18:53.

services to conduct a dirty tricks campaign against his opponent. This

:18:54.:18:56.

is not who we want leading the European Commission. Elmar Brok,

:18:57.:19:00.

European Commission. Elmar Brok since the European voters have sent

:19:01.:19:03.

a message to the parliament that they are not happy with the status

:19:04.:19:07.

quo, why would you want a man who is synonymous with the status quo?

:19:08.:19:13.

First of all what Martin has said is wrong. He has not done tricks

:19:14.:19:24.

against his opponents. He was very clear on that. He is also the man

:19:25.:19:30.

who was always for changes. He made dramatic changes as head of the Euro

:19:31.:19:35.

group, came out of the economic crisis which was a result of the

:19:36.:19:39.

financial crisis, made politics possible, to stop this incredible

:19:40.:19:43.

financial sector influence of our states. I believe he is a man who

:19:44.:19:48.

works on the programme which Mrs Merkel and others have decided in

:19:49.:19:53.

Dublin, for the reform of the European Union, less government. But

:19:54.:19:55.

European Union, less government But we need Europe more and he is not a

:19:56.:19:59.

man from the 80s. He is a man of this century and in this century he

:20:00.:20:05.

made his own policy. He is the winner of the European elections, he

:20:06.:20:07.

has a majority will stop Mrs LANguard is not running because she

:20:08.:20:12.

knows she will not get the majority in the European Parliament. --

:20:13.:20:20.

Christine Lagarde is not running. It is the Council of minister is that

:20:21.:20:25.

decides. No, the European Parliament has the final word. The European

:20:26.:20:30.

Council can make a proposal by majority in the light of the

:20:31.:20:33.

European elections after consultation with the European

:20:34.:20:37.

Parliament. The council cannot get a candidate against the will of the

:20:38.:20:42.

European Parliament. Mr Junker has a majority in the European Parliament.

:20:43.:20:47.

Theoretically he is right, the Parliament has do vote on the

:20:48.:20:51.

candidates proposed by the council. I want to challenge the view that

:20:52.:20:54.

somehow he won the European elections. There is no provision for

:20:55.:21:00.

Jean Claude Junker to stand in the elections. He is saying that the EEP

:21:01.:21:04.

party got the most number of seats in the Parliament but none of the

:21:05.:21:07.

electorate knew they were taking part in this election. How many

:21:08.:21:11.

people who voted Labour in the United Kingdom realised that their

:21:12.:21:16.

vote would count towards a German socialist to be a candidate for the

:21:17.:21:21.

commission of presidency is a nonsensical proposal. The elections

:21:22.:21:26.

were 28 individual elections with hundreds of parties across Europe.

:21:27.:21:29.

To try to claim there is a democratic mandate for somebody

:21:30.:21:32.

nobody has heard from Luxembourg to take over the commission is a

:21:33.:21:43.

nonsense. People should know him, if I should say that ironically.

:21:44.:21:53.

Newspapers talking about members of the family of his wife with Nazi

:21:54.:22:00.

links... What is the answer to Martin Callinan's point? I think it

:22:01.:22:06.

is clear that British Conservatives have no candidate because they are

:22:07.:22:10.

not a broad European family, they have not impacted on the selection

:22:11.:22:15.

of top candidates but it is a form of isolation of the British Tory

:22:16.:22:21.

Party. The Prime Minister said if Mr Junker is appointed it could lead to

:22:22.:22:25.

Britain drifting towards the EU exit, is that credible? Is it

:22:26.:22:31.

melodramatic? It is true that we want to renegotiate the

:22:32.:22:34.

relationship. We want some serious reform in Europe so the people who

:22:35.:22:38.

vote in a referendum will be able to vote to stay in if that is what they

:22:39.:22:43.

want. We need a bold reformer, somebody prepared to engage. That is

:22:44.:22:51.

not anti the interests of the UK. We need to recognise there is a problem

:22:52.:22:54.

with public perception of the European Union. Elmar Brok is proud

:22:55.:22:57.

to be one of the last bastions of federalism that that is not where

:22:58.:23:01.

most of the public opinion is in Europe. I understand why he wants

:23:02.:23:04.

his man installed but we need to take into account the message of the

:23:05.:23:12.

letter -- the electorate. 25% of the publishing of France were prepared

:23:13.:23:16.

to vote for an openly racist party. We can't just ignore the signal that

:23:17.:23:25.

the electorate were sending us. If enthusiasm for federalism was at an

:23:26.:23:27.

all-time low, it would be a slap in the face for the voters of Europe to

:23:28.:23:31.

have a federalist as the president, would it not? 70, 80% of the members

:23:32.:23:38.

of the European Parliament, selected by their people, are pro-Europeans.

:23:39.:23:44.

These are the winners of the European elections. Even in France,

:23:45.:23:47.

a majority of voters have voted pro-European and that should be

:23:48.:23:51.

clear, not to make this a populist thing which is not only to do with

:23:52.:23:59.

Europe. And we want to have a Europe which is strong, the member states

:24:00.:24:08.

should do their things. We do not want to have a European centralism,

:24:09.:24:13.

we do not want a European state. This is not at stake. Let's talk

:24:14.:24:16.

about the question of better governance, let's talk about what

:24:17.:24:22.

was wrong in the past, we have to become better, to change our

:24:23.:24:25.

programme in that question. That should be the way we lead to come to

:24:26.:24:31.

positive results. Thank you for that. Before we go, there is a

:24:32.:24:36.

British commissioner that needs to be appointed to Brussels, do you

:24:37.:24:42.

like the sound of that? These are matters for the Prime Minister, I am

:24:43.:24:45.

sure he has many excellent candidates. Do you like the sound of

:24:46.:24:52.

it? Like previous British commissioners, Chris Patten, Neil

:24:53.:25:00.

clinic, I have just lost an election -- Neil Kinnock for the everybody

:25:01.:25:01.

who is asked would serve, I'm sure. Just days ago UKIP were celebrating

:25:02.:25:06.

topping the poll in the European They're claiming they'd have had two

:25:07.:25:10.

more MEPs and the Greens two fewer had another

:25:11.:25:16.

party not confused the electorate. What's more UKIP say it's

:25:17.:25:19.

the fault of the body which was set up to oversee

:25:20.:25:22.

elections - the Electoral Commission This is a party celebrating success

:25:23.:25:36.

at the European elections. They didn't win a single MEP but

:25:37.:25:43.

nationally polled 250,000 votes. They are an independence from

:25:44.:25:46.

Europe, mostly people who were once in UKIP, and that is rather the

:25:47.:25:51.

point. They may look like capers, drink like capers, sound like capers

:25:52.:26:08.

-- -- sound like kippers, but they are not. The name and the logo were

:26:09.:26:16.

displayed on this banner when the party launched its campaign. UKIP

:26:17.:26:21.

suggest the look, the wording and the inclusion of UK in now confused

:26:22.:26:26.

voters, and are looking at rewriting such a wrong. The way that seats are

:26:27.:26:31.

allocated in a European election under a proportional representation

:26:32.:26:36.

system is using this formula. It was invented by a Belgian mathematician

:26:37.:26:41.

in 1878 and it is essentially this. When all of the votes have been

:26:42.:26:48.

tallied up, the one with the most seats gets the first MEPC in a

:26:49.:26:52.

region. The others are allocated using votes cast divided by the

:26:53.:26:58.

number of seats gained plus one -- first MEP seat in a region. UKIP

:26:59.:27:04.

were concerned with South West and London. There they say, when the

:27:05.:27:09.

last MEP seats were being allocated, if everyone who had voted for an

:27:10.:27:13.

independence from Europe had meant to vote for UKIP and you tallied

:27:14.:27:17.

their votes up, and added them to UKIP, UKIP would have been up one in

:27:18.:27:23.

each region and the greens would have lost them. Whether you can

:27:24.:27:29.

prove that voters did that by mistake is a very different matter.

:27:30.:27:36.

UKIP may have to just chalk it up to experience. It has happened before,

:27:37.:27:39.

back in the European elections of 1994. Then in England under the

:27:40.:27:45.

first past the post system. This man, Richard Huggett, decided to

:27:46.:27:50.

stand as a little Democrat and polled a significant number of

:27:51.:27:54.

votes. The Liberal Democrat candidate at the time is now an MP.

:27:55.:28:00.

Many people voted and afterwards realised that they had bubbly voted

:28:01.:28:07.

for -- probably voted for a little Democrat, not a Liberal Democrat as

:28:08.:28:11.

they had been intending to do -- bubbly voted for a literal Democrat

:28:12.:28:15.

-- probably voted. Mr Sanders got some consolation In

:28:16.:28:30.

1998, laws came into rule on so-called spoiler tactics and the

:28:31.:28:32.

Electoral Commission was established. The Electoral

:28:33.:28:35.

Commission are based on the seventh floor of this building and they did

:28:36.:28:38.

look into this issue prior to voting. They have given us a

:28:39.:28:41.

statement that reveals the conclusion they came to, part of

:28:42.:28:46.

which says, we decided that the name of the party, and its description

:28:47.:28:51.

are sufficiently different to those registered by the UK Independence

:28:52.:28:56.

Party, UKIP, to mean, in our opinion, that voters were not likely

:28:57.:29:00.

to be confused if they appeared on the same ballot paper. Pretty

:29:01.:29:07.

conclusive stuff. Back at the pub, were an independence from Europe

:29:08.:29:11.

just being crafty, or do UKIP need to wake up and smell the flowers? We

:29:12.:29:17.

attack them in all areas. An independent study for Anglo

:29:18.:29:19.

Netherlands because I was involved in the Dutch -- with the Dutch

:29:20.:29:24.

member of Parliament and the description was UK Independence now,

:29:25.:29:30.

nobody has a monopoly on the word independence. I have been fighting

:29:31.:29:35.

for independence since I started in 1994, before I joined UKIP. The

:29:36.:29:40.

party tell me they will stand again at the general election next year.

:29:41.:29:44.

The ironies not lost on them or the major parties of UKIP complaining

:29:45.:29:50.

that a smaller party has been taking votes of them.

:29:51.:29:59.

Joining me now to discuss this story is Gawain Towler.

:30:00.:30:02.

He's the UKIP candidate for the South West region, who failed to get

:30:03.:30:06.

And in our Bristol studios is the victorious Green MEP for

:30:07.:30:10.

How many of the 23,000 votes that were cast for the Independence party

:30:11.:30:24.

were meant for you? Impossible to tell. I want to congratulate Molly

:30:25.:30:29.

for getting elected. They are the breaks. I do not think there is a

:30:30.:30:34.

purpose in complaining about boats that are cast. Do you think you

:30:35.:30:47.

would have one otherwise? Yes, I do. You have to look at the

:30:48.:30:49.

would have one otherwise? Yes, I do. You have to look boats for parties

:30:50.:30:51.

people have not heard of and those with a long tradition that people

:30:52.:30:57.

have heard of. I do not think there is any doubt. If you saw the spoiled

:30:58.:31:04.

ballot papers, the amount of people who had voted at the top and the

:31:05.:31:09.

bottom, most people are not anoraks, they say, they are the people I

:31:10.:31:15.

want. They know what they are after. I think it is at least told. It is

:31:16.:31:30.

said you owe your seat to And Independence Party. It is strange

:31:31.:31:37.

for a man to say he could represent people in the south-west better than

:31:38.:31:44.

me. There has been outpouring of delight that a Green MP has finally

:31:45.:31:50.

been elected. A number of people have been saying they have been

:31:51.:31:55.

voting all their lives and it is the first time they have elected

:31:56.:31:59.

anybody. I am glad to represent them in a significant legislature. What

:32:00.:32:04.

would you say to that? I find it strange. I am perfectly happy for

:32:05.:32:12.

her to be elected. I feel the electoral commission has questions

:32:13.:32:17.

to answer. But, congratulations to Molly. Why do you want an extra seat

:32:18.:32:23.

for the Greens in the European Parliament but your national share

:32:24.:32:30.

of the vote actually fell. We did come under pressure nationally. If

:32:31.:32:34.

he is complaining about the role the election commission said we could

:32:35.:32:39.

stand, the rule we were not happy with was the off, ruling which said

:32:40.:32:43.

we were not a main party. We got significantly less media time and

:32:44.:32:50.

that is why our belt actually fell. Not on the Daily Politics or the

:32:51.:32:53.

Sunday Politics, where you were well represented. Was it a problem for

:32:54.:33:04.

UKIP in other parts of the country? Only in London. What do you think

:33:05.:33:19.

happened there? Very much the same. I do not think there is any doubt,

:33:20.:33:23.

the number of people we have had getting in touch saying, I am really

:33:24.:33:27.

sorry, I made a mess, that they voted for the wrong party. They are

:33:28.:33:32.

the breaks. Politics is politics. What I would like to see and what is

:33:33.:33:37.

reasonable, and I hope Molly would agree, there needs to be a reform -

:33:38.:33:43.

a serious reform of the Electoral Commission. There is no appeal

:33:44.:33:50.

process. They say it is not confusing. Lets see if she thinks

:33:51.:33:56.

that. I make it a policy never to agree with UKIP. What is important

:33:57.:34:01.

to note, if you look at the votes and the way the votes fell out and

:34:02.:34:04.

the seats fell out in the south-west, it is difficult for an

:34:05.:34:08.

Electoral Commission to turn boats into seats. UKIP got 33% of the vote

:34:09.:34:15.

and 33% of the seats. For them, the system worked very well in the

:34:16.:34:22.

south-west. Nationally, Greens did not get represented as the vote

:34:23.:34:26.

share would require. That is because you get very small number of seats

:34:27.:34:30.

in the different regions and you have to reach a high threshold. The

:34:31.:34:34.

Green Party has a right to complain about the level of seats we have

:34:35.:34:39.

ended up with. White rapper you have complaints about the Electoral

:34:40.:34:46.

Commission? We need to move to a proportional system for elections

:34:47.:34:50.

generally. If we poll around 7% 8%, we should be looking at having 30,

:34:51.:34:54.

40 seats in the national legislature. We need to consider

:34:55.:34:59.

proportional representation for national elections. Do you accept

:35:00.:35:03.

the ballot paper may have confused some people? I think what happened

:35:04.:35:08.

is that some people in UKIP were very worried. Worried about the

:35:09.:35:15.

rightward move of UKIP and the authoritarian leadership of Nigel

:35:16.:35:19.

Farage. He set up a separate party. That is what happens in politics,

:35:20.:35:24.

particularly when parties are led by demagogues and are not focused on

:35:25.:35:35.

Democratic policy. Do you have any legal redress to this? None

:35:36.:35:40.

whatsoever. Have you had legal advice? I am told there is no

:35:41.:35:49.

redress. We do feel, I am sure Molly does not agree with UKIP on anything

:35:50.:35:53.

so, if we say the sun rises in the morning, she probably will disagree

:35:54.:35:59.

with that. If, at the next election, there is a party called the Grown

:36:00.:36:07.

Party, will she then complain? There needs to be some level of

:36:08.:36:11.

accountability and, without that, one wonders what is going on. We

:36:12.:36:18.

have an organisation with enormous and important power and influence

:36:19.:36:21.

which is setup to stop this of thing going on. It has failed. Not has it

:36:22.:36:29.

has failed. Not present served in Tower Hamlets and there have been

:36:30.:36:32.

massive problems with postal votes. It is failing on almost everything

:36:33.:36:38.

it is supposed to do. Just to go back for a final point from Molly.

:36:39.:36:43.

Should there be a right of appeal to the rulings of the Electoral

:36:44.:36:48.

Commission? You need to have an authoritative body that makes

:36:49.:36:50.

decisions in this area and we have the Electoral Commission. It is

:36:51.:36:55.

about being sore losers on the part of UKIP. I am delighted to represent

:36:56.:37:01.

people in the South West. Should there be a right of appeal or not?

:37:02.:37:07.

You need an authoritative body and the Electoral Commission is that. I

:37:08.:37:10.

do not think it should have a right to appeal.

:37:11.:37:12.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:37:13.:37:17.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be discussing extremism

:37:18.:37:30.

I'm Natalie Graham and this is the Sunday Politics in the South East.

:37:31.:37:33.

In just a few months, drivers using the Dartford river crossing will

:37:34.:37:38.

benefit from a new free`flow system, but is it just a short`term

:37:39.:37:42.

My guests this week are Labour's parliamentary candidate for

:37:43.:37:47.

South Thanet Will Scobie and the Conservative MP

:37:48.:37:50.

Now, we were off air last wdek, so this is the first chance we've

:37:51.:37:58.

had to mull over the results of the European Elections.

:37:59.:38:00.

The headline for the South East was, of course, that UKIP saw a rise

:38:01.:38:04.

They gained two seats, bringing their total to thrde.

:38:05.:38:09.

The Conservatives lost one MEP which means they now have three

:38:10.:38:12.

and the Liberal Democrats lost one MEP, so Catherine Bearder is now

:38:13.:38:16.

the only Lib Dem representative in Europe in the country.

:38:17.:38:18.

I'm going to ask the same question to both gtests.

:38:19.:38:24.

UKIP had over a 13% rise in their share of the vote, how are your

:38:25.:38:28.

We have to put it in context first of all. Labour does not do well in

:38:29.:38:43.

European elections, it has been 20 years since we have won one. There

:38:44.:38:47.

were some very good results for Labour in the local election, we did

:38:48.:38:52.

very well in Crawley and Hastings. Even in Thanet, the Labour vote went

:38:53.:38:56.

up. There is a lot of discontent with voters at the moment, that is

:38:57.:38:58.

why you could have done so well. We why you could have done so well We

:38:59.:39:02.

need to do more to reconnect with voters, `` why UKIP have done so

:39:03.:39:08.

well. Are they doing enough? Senior members of your party have told Ed

:39:09.:39:11.

Miliband they are not doing enough to pull over additional voters who

:39:12.:39:13.

to pull over additional votdrs who are being pulled over to UKIP?

:39:14.:39:15.

to pull over additional voters who are being pulled over to UKHP? That

:39:16.:39:20.

sounds you're area. If you talk to people on the doorstep, people say

:39:21.:39:26.

they will vote UKIP in the European elections unencumbered to L`bour. We

:39:27.:39:29.

have got to reconnect with those people. We have got exciting

:39:30.:39:33.

policies coming forward, particularly a big issue in Thanet,

:39:34.:39:37.

to do with private sector renting. The policies in the last few weeks

:39:38.:39:39.

will be helpful in those issues We will be helpful in those issues We

:39:40.:39:44.

have had a freeze in Alnwick sheet rices, zero hours contract `` energy

:39:45.:39:49.

prices, action on zero our contracts. Not everyone things you

:39:50.:39:54.

are getting it right, anothdr are getting it right, anothdr

:39:55.:39:58.

Parliamentary candidate in Kent was exposed by the Sunday Times saying

:39:59.:40:00.

Ed Miliband hasn't got what it takes to win. Everyone has got different

:40:01.:40:05.

views but we are all trying to reconnect with voters. If we had it

:40:06.:40:09.

right now, we would not see UKIP doing so well. You are doing badly

:40:10.:40:15.

with UKIP, Nigel Farage will be standing in your area, you will be

:40:16.:40:18.

at the forefront of the fight against the party. I am just

:40:19.:40:23.

focusing what I can do with the area, I am a local candidatd, I have

:40:24.:40:27.

lived there my entire life, I am trying my best to stand up and

:40:28.:40:28.

improve it. Whoever UKIP brhng trying my best to stand up `nd

:40:29.:40:31.

improve it. Whoever UKIP brhng in are going to be a candidate being

:40:32.:40:33.

parachuted in, they are onlx are going to be a candidate being

:40:34.:40:34.

parachuted in, they are only going parachuted in, they are only going

:40:35.:40:36.

to be there because it is their best chance of being elected as an MP.

:40:37.:40:40.

The voters can choose someone who has come into the area to use it as

:40:41.:40:44.

a platform for other things or an MP who is going to be there,

:40:45.:40:46.

campaigning to improve the `rea campaigning to improve the area,

:40:47.:40:49.

which is what I'm going to be doing. UKIP are a big threat to yotr

:40:50.:40:53.

which is what I'm going to be doing. UKIP are a big threat to your party,

:40:54.:40:53.

UKIP are a big threat to yotr party, if not more, than it is for Labour.

:40:54.:40:55.

A number of messages have come from A number of messages have come from

:40:56.:41:00.

people supporting UKIP, they A number of messages have come from

:41:01.:41:03.

people supporting UKIP, thex are unhappy on issues such as

:41:04.:41:04.

immigration, they want to sde a immigration, they want to sde a

:41:05.:41:08.

control on people coming into the country. We want to see our

:41:09.:41:11.

relationship with the European country. We want to see our

:41:12.:41:11.

relationship with the Europdan Union relationship with the Europdan Union

:41:12.:41:13.

redefined, which is why we need to get across that the only way you

:41:14.:41:16.

would get a proper referendtm on the European Union is to vote in a

:41:17.:41:20.

Conservative government. Labour are saying they will not have a

:41:21.:41:23.

referendum if they win. UKIP are not going to be able to win the next

:41:24.:41:31.

general election. So we need to get across these messages that `re

:41:32.:41:32.

general election. So we need to get across these messages that are quite

:41:33.:41:33.

across these messages that `re quite clear, that lay some of the fears

:41:34.:41:37.

that people have showed. How do you do that, what needs to happdn in

:41:38.:41:39.

that people have showed. How do you do that, what needs to happen in the

:41:40.:41:39.

do that, what needs to happdn in the next year? What a David Cameron has

:41:40.:41:44.

to say to allay those fears? The worst thing we can do is try to

:41:45.:41:46.

worst thing we can do is trx to out`UKIP UKIP. If Europe is a big

:41:47.:41:52.

decision for you, the only way you will get a decision on whether to be

:41:53.:41:56.

in the European Union is to vote Conservative. We are the only party

:41:57.:42:00.

able to offer a referendum on whether the UK should be in the EU

:42:01.:42:04.

or not. What was also clear from the European elections, there is no

:42:05.:42:07.

enthusiast and whatsoever from Ed Miliband or Ed Balls, that was quite

:42:08.:42:11.

clear, we saw that recently in Newark as well, there is no concept

:42:12.:42:14.

of there being a government in waiting being put forward bx the

:42:15.:42:17.

waiting being put forward by the Labour Party. We have to move

:42:18.:42:20.

forward, sorry, you will get your chance? !

:42:21.:42:23.

Now, Ann Barnes, Kent's Polhce and Crime Commissioner,

:42:24.:42:25.

has prided herself on raising the profile of policing in Kent,

:42:26.:42:28.

but she can't be too proud of the media coverage she's had this week.

:42:29.:42:32.

Her second Youth Commissiondr has temporarily been relieved of her

:42:33.:42:34.

duties following allegations she had a close friendship with a married

:42:35.:42:37.

It came a just few days aftdr Mrs Barnes was accused

:42:38.:42:41.

of making the force a laughing stock by taking part

:42:42.:42:44.

These are all the various things, different kinds of policing, OK

:42:45.:42:52.

So what would be an example of a crime on the outside of that rim?

:42:53.:42:58.

I wasn't thinking I was going to talk about the onion.

:42:59.:43:03.

After that performance, there were calls for her resignathon.

:43:04.:43:11.

And this Thursday, she faced the Kent Police and

:43:12.:43:14.

Crime Panel, a scrutiny body which oversees her role.

:43:15.:43:18.

I would like to offer an apology, especially to the hard`workhng men

:43:19.:43:22.

and women of Kent police, who, I know, some of them are very upset

:43:23.:43:26.

I think some people have said you've treated members, senior members

:43:27.:43:34.

We've had three train crashes coming through now.

:43:35.:43:39.

I'd just like to ask the commissioner bluntly,

:43:40.:43:41.

Still, she says for the moment she'll remain in her job, the chair

:43:42.:43:47.

of that Committee said he was impressed by her apology and the

:43:48.:43:50.

Police Federation, which represents rank and file police officers,

:43:51.:43:53.

welcomed the apology and said they were looking forward

:43:54.:43:55.

Quick question to both of you, do you think she should have rdsigned?

:43:56.:44:04.

I think she needs to do somd serious rethinking. Rather than talking

:44:05.:44:08.

about the excellent work thd police about the excellent work the police

:44:09.:44:11.

Tuesday in day out for the last two weeks, we have been talking about

:44:12.:44:16.

some of the mistakes she has made, it was incredibly embarrasshng.

:44:17.:44:17.

some of the mistakes she has made, it was incredibly embarrassing. I do

:44:18.:44:19.

not think she should resign necessarily but she needs to have a

:44:20.:44:22.

hard thing about whether she wants to accept these kind of medha

:44:23.:44:24.

to accept these kind of media engagements. Going on to thdse

:44:25.:44:25.

to accept these kind of medha engagements. Going on to these kind

:44:26.:44:26.

engagements. Going on to thdse kind of media engagements. Going onto the

:44:27.:44:36.

bound to be issues there. So she needs to find new advisers. So

:44:37.:44:40.

naivete, sheeny has embarrassed the police, she needs to move on? I do

:44:41.:44:46.

not think I care about what people think about her, but I know I care

:44:47.:44:49.

about what people think about Kent about what people think abott Kent

:44:50.:44:53.

police. It is a very good Constabulary, people are working

:44:54.:44:54.

very hard to police the are`, Constabulary, people are working

:44:55.:44:59.

very hard to police the area, and she `` and they are being undermined

:45:00.:45:02.

by this keystone cop commission. You by this keystone cop commission. You

:45:03.:45:09.

should care about this. I think we are very close to her having to

:45:10.:45:12.

stand down. You are starting short of saying she should? `` stopping

:45:13.:45:22.

short? Kent police could do better than an Barnes. The Conserv`tive

:45:23.:45:23.

than an Barnes. The Conservative candidate, maybe? Your candhdate

:45:24.:45:31.

lost to Mrs Barnes, if that is what is going on? A lot of the people

:45:32.:45:33.

lost to Mrs Barnes, if that is what is going on? A lot of the pdople in

:45:34.:45:33.

is going on? A lot of the people in your party think she should go.

:45:34.:45:39.

Police commissioners are a good idea because they created accountability

:45:40.:45:41.

between the public and the police. It did not work if someone in it did

:45:42.:45:48.

`` there is someone inept doing the job. There is not a suggesthon

:45:49.:45:52.

`` there is someone inept doing the job. There is not a suggestion she

:45:53.:45:52.

job. There is not a suggesthon she is inept, she has embarrassed

:45:53.:45:53.

job. There is not a suggestion she is inept, she has embarrassdd the

:45:54.:45:53.

police, she has admitted that, is inept, she has embarrassed the

:45:54.:45:55.

police, she has admitted th`t, you could also argue that she has raised

:45:56.:46:01.

the profile of the job. She was also seen in the documentary holding

:46:02.:46:03.

offices to account. Do you think there is resentment on a half of

:46:04.:46:09.

officers that she is good at the job? I have yet to find an officer

:46:10.:46:15.

who thought she was good at the job. She has spent money on renovating

:46:16.:46:18.

property, wasted money, her judgement has singled into puestion

:46:19.:46:20.

judgement has singled into question on more than one occasion. `` called

:46:21.:46:26.

into question. We have an in Paris than as a police Commissiondr for

:46:27.:46:27.

Kent. The big picture, `` we had than as a police Commissioner for

:46:28.:46:30.

Kent. The big picture, `` wd had an embarrassment. The federation is

:46:31.:46:37.

also saying they are looking forward to building bridges with an Barnes.

:46:38.:46:42.

We had in the Queens speech last week, that MPs should be able to be

:46:43.:46:45.

recalled, should the same applied to the police Commissioner? We could

:46:46.:46:51.

look into it. I do not see what she has done wrong which means she

:46:52.:46:52.

should lose her job. We have has done wrong which means she

:46:53.:46:55.

should lose her job. We have seen this media hunt around Kerrx Boyd,

:46:56.:46:57.

this media hunt around Kerry Boyd, the use Commissioner. She h`s had

:46:58.:47:00.

her name dragged through the mud, her name dragged through thd mud,

:47:01.:47:07.

but we do not know the facts. But polished as `` but politicians

:47:08.:47:08.

but we do not know the facts. But polished as `` but politici`ns are

:47:09.:47:08.

polished as `` but politicians are using this as a stick to be`t the

:47:09.:47:11.

using this as a stick to beat the Commissioner with. These ard two

:47:12.:47:13.

Commissioner with. These are two separate issues. Challenge Lrs

:47:14.:47:16.

Barnes on what cheating on her job, but the other things are not

:47:17.:47:21.

relevant. I should point out that this is Barnes is not here to rebut

:47:22.:47:24.

the allegations you just me`n about the allegations you just me`n about

:47:25.:47:31.

expenditure in her office. Hs it not time for her to move on, she has

:47:32.:47:37.

acknowledged her mistakes, she should get on with her job? We have

:47:38.:47:42.

seen that evidence that she would be a capable Commissioner. We have got

:47:43.:47:46.

a very good Constabulary in Kent. Crime is coming down, officdrs are

:47:47.:47:48.

working hard at management and working hard at management and

:47:49.:47:54.

Constable and Sergeant Neville, we should celebrate that. We should

:47:55.:47:58.

have a commissioner who is celebrating them and helping them

:47:59.:48:03.

but we have the opposite of that. This is what the Conservative party

:48:04.:48:05.

wanted in the role, what dods it This is what the Conservative party

:48:06.:48:06.

wanted in the role, what dods it say about the job if you are so

:48:07.:48:10.

frustrated with the person who is doing about? This is why it is

:48:11.:48:13.

frustrating, the policy is good because the first time the public

:48:14.:48:17.

are able to hold the police to account with the Commissiondr.

:48:18.:48:18.

are able to hold the police to account with the Commissioner. It

:48:19.:48:22.

works well around the country and the world. It is being undermined by

:48:23.:48:26.

a commissioner who is not doing her job properly. The chair of the panel

:48:27.:48:32.

said that she was refreshing in her approach and her apology, w`s the

:48:33.:48:33.

approach and her apology, was the panel tough enough in their

:48:34.:48:39.

questions? I think they were, I asked them questions afterw`rd and I

:48:40.:48:40.

listen to it on the radio. I think listen to it on the radio. H think

:48:41.:48:47.

they did very well, and somd good questions are being raised, even

:48:48.:48:49.

when the media spotlight is not on them. They are talking about

:48:50.:48:52.

policing which is what we should be focusing on not the bits around it.

:48:53.:48:56.

Should they have the power of recall, in a world `` in a word No.

:48:57.:49:02.

If you've ever used the river crossing at Dartford,

:49:03.:49:04.

you'll know that it's a journey that can be frustratingly slow, fraught

:49:05.:49:07.

Very soon, though, your journey could be quicker as the new

:49:08.:49:11.

But how long will drivers fdel the benefits?

:49:12.:49:15.

And do we need a longer`term solution?

:49:16.:49:17.

MUSIC: "2`4`6`8 Motorway" by Tom Robinson Band

:49:18.:49:22.

The notorious Dartford to Thurrock River Crossing.

:49:23.:49:25.

One of the slowest and most congested sections

:49:26.:49:28.

# Drive my truck midway to the motorway station

:49:29.:49:33.

# Fairlane cruisers coming up on the left`hand side... #

:49:34.:49:36.

The crossing was built for a capacity of

:49:37.:49:39.

It now regularly carries over 160,000.

:49:40.:49:46.

A figure that's set to rise by up to 20% in the coming xears.

:49:47.:49:51.

Lorry driver Matt Smith uses the road several times a dax.

:49:52.:49:55.

This is a good day, but this can be solid for miles.

:49:56.:49:59.

Soon, these old pay stations will be ripped out to make way for Britain's

:50:00.:50:03.

The system, costing ?367 million over ten years, will use automatic

:50:04.:50:12.

The Highways Agency reckon ht will improve journey times

:50:13.:50:17.

Matt's boss, Chris Smart, is sceptical.

:50:18.:50:23.

Being based in Dartford, we've got to use it.

:50:24.:50:25.

It costs us a lot of money, we have a small fleet

:50:26.:50:29.

of six vehicles but we can be using that ten to 12 times a day.

:50:30.:50:33.

On average, it's costing me between 4,500 to ?5,000 per year.

:50:34.:50:38.

I do feel it's a very expensive experiment.

:50:39.:50:41.

I don't think it's going to make that much difference.

:50:42.:50:44.

The government says the free flow system is good news, cutting harmful

:50:45.:50:48.

emissions and keeping traffic movin for another ten years,

:50:49.:50:52.

with the region feeling the economic benefit within 12 months.

:50:53.:50:57.

For UK traffic, DVLA records will be used.

:50:58.:51:03.

A specialist agency in Europe will track down overseas vehicles.

:51:04.:51:07.

Officials estimate the loss of revenue

:51:08.:51:10.

from foreign lorries skipping the toll could be around ?6 million.

:51:11.:51:14.

Others think it could be millions more.

:51:15.:51:18.

The noncompliance rates typically for this type of scheme are

:51:19.:51:22.

Recovery rates on that, difficult to judge.

:51:23.:51:30.

But, you know, we take evasion seriously.

:51:31.:51:34.

The whole credibility of thd scheme will fall into disrepute if we don't

:51:35.:51:38.

The government recognises that this crossing is vital for the continued

:51:39.:51:45.

Nearly half of the traffic that uses it is made up

:51:46.:51:51.

It's also widely recognised that the free flow system is onlx

:51:52.:51:57.

a short`term solution and what the south`east really needs

:51:58.:52:01.

After years of discussion, plans for the Lower Thames crossing

:52:02.:52:06.

Option A runs adjacent to the existing Dartford Crosshng.

:52:07.:52:16.

And option C links Kent and Essex east of Gravesend.

:52:17.:52:24.

Kent county council favours option C costing ?3.24 billion.

:52:25.:52:29.

But some locals fear a final decision is being ptt off.

:52:30.:52:34.

Our concern about free flow is not the free flow

:52:35.:52:37.

system itself, our concern about it is that it has been used,

:52:38.:52:40.

particularly by our Conserv`tive MP, as an excuse to delay the

:52:41.:52:44.

government's decision on location of a new Lower Thames crossing.

:52:45.:52:48.

And really, that decision has to be made imminently.

:52:49.:52:52.

Dartford cannot afford any more delay on this decision.

:52:53.:52:56.

# Two, four, six, eight, never too late

:52:57.:53:00.

# Me and my radio trucking on through the night... #

:53:01.:53:03.

Although the preferred location of the Lower Thames crossing should

:53:04.:53:06.

be announced by the end of this year, with

:53:07.:53:09.

a general election on the horizon, some fear that date may slip.

:53:10.:53:13.

In the meantime, officials will be keeping

:53:14.:53:16.

a close eye on the impact of the new free flow system, a scheme that is

:53:17.:53:20.

welcomed, but only offers tdmporary relief to a much bigger problem

:53:21.:53:24.

Joining us in the studio now is Natalie Chapman, of the

:53:25.:53:31.

Where do you think the second crossing should go?

:53:32.:53:40.

We think option seat would give the biggest strategic benefits for the

:53:41.:53:45.

area. We have got to remember this area. We have got to remembdr this

:53:46.:53:49.

is not just a regional crossing, it has got national significance. The

:53:50.:53:53.

studies have shown that it will give the biggest economic boost as

:53:54.:53:54.

studies have shown that it will give the biggest economic boost `s well,

:53:55.:53:54.

the biggest economic boost as well, and also help growth and

:53:55.:54:00.

regeneration across East Kent. It would cost a lot and be hugely

:54:01.:54:02.

would cost a lot and be hugdly damaging to the buyer and? There's

:54:03.:54:04.

other downsides. It is by far the other downsides. It is by far the

:54:05.:54:12.

most extensive option, in terms of construction costs, and it does have

:54:13.:54:15.

environmental concerns. So you think environmental concerns. So you think

:54:16.:54:20.

the second crossing benefit the national economy, wherever ht goes?

:54:21.:54:24.

If the third option becomes more difficult, to expensive or

:54:25.:54:34.

contentious, or that, let's just get on and build the first option. The

:54:35.:54:37.

delay is the most important thing. We need additional capacity, and all

:54:38.:54:43.

too often, we wait, we build our houses, create our jobs and then

:54:44.:54:46.

think about the structure to support them afterwards. We need to start

:54:47.:54:49.

thinking ahead for the future and what they need for the south`east

:54:50.:54:54.

and the national economy. In terms of the free flow system, we heard

:54:55.:54:55.

from a haulier there, he said it of the free flow system, we heard

:54:56.:54:57.

from a haulier there, he sahd it is from a haulier there, he said it is

:54:58.:54:57.

going to cost him and not bd from a haulier there, he sahd it is

:54:58.:54:59.

going to cost him and not bd worth it. What is your feeling an

:55:00.:55:02.

organisation? We think it is going to help the current congesthon,

:55:03.:55:07.

organisation? We think it is going to help the current congestion, the

:55:08.:55:09.

proof will be in the pudding. We have to see what happens not just

:55:10.:55:12.

come October when it goes into place, but we will not feel the real

:55:13.:55:16.

benefit until this time next year. There is a certain amount of

:55:17.:55:20.

construction that has got to happen with the toll Plaza. We will not

:55:21.:55:25.

feel the benefit until next year. We are waiting to see the impact of

:55:26.:55:28.

free flow, that means anothdr weight, more delay, that is very

:55:29.:55:32.

frustrating for everybody, not least you, you have got a fight of

:55:33.:55:35.

election next year. I agree we need another crossing across the Thames,

:55:36.:55:40.

we need to take away the congestion even when we have the free flow

:55:41.:55:44.

system. It will be unwise to decide where we are going to put new

:55:45.:55:46.

where we are going to put ndw crossing without first seeing the

:55:47.:55:50.

effects of the flow system. Why, what is that God is to be `` what

:55:51.:55:56.

has not got to do with it? Dveryone agrees the second crossing has got

:55:57.:56:04.

to be made. We do not know what is going to happen when the traffic

:56:05.:56:06.

flow will be changed in October We flow will be changed in October. We

:56:07.:56:11.

continually did but we do not know what is going to happen unthl

:56:12.:56:12.

continually did but we do not know what is going to happen until we

:56:13.:56:12.

what is going to happen unthl we remove the booths. Traffic is

:56:13.:56:16.

predicted to grow in the next decade, you going to change your

:56:17.:56:21.

mind and then say, put it in my constituency? Because you are going

:56:22.:56:25.

to be opposed to it the momdnt. There are variants that we need to

:56:26.:56:28.

talk about, we need to sit see whether we go for a variant on the

:56:29.:56:33.

third option. When we had the consultation last year, people said

:56:34.:56:41.

they were concerned on the environmental and packed of options

:56:42.:56:49.

a and C. They wanted us to look the impact. We know that someond is

:56:50.:56:50.

a and C. They wanted us to look the impact. We know that someone is art

:56:51.:56:50.

impact. We know that someond is art under threat `` some words are under

:56:51.:56:56.

under threat `` some words `re under threat with the third option. The

:56:57.:57:01.

government said they were going to make a decision this year,

:57:02.:57:04.

presumably it would suit you if they delay it after the election, then

:57:05.:57:08.

you would not have any awkwardness with your constituents? The cheapest

:57:09.:57:15.

and quickest option is to expand the crossing to your constituency. That

:57:16.:57:23.

will not give any alternatives to my constituency, we have got

:57:24.:57:27.

expansion... The thing is, motorists, residents, the freight

:57:28.:57:29.

transport Association, everyone is transport Association, everxone is

:57:30.:57:34.

frustrated with the delay. The accusation is, this is going to lose

:57:35.:57:37.

Conservative votes wherever it is built, why not get on with ht?

:57:38.:57:40.

Conservative votes wherever it is built, why not get on with it? Is

:57:41.:57:40.

Conservative votes wherever it is built, why not get on with ht? Is it

:57:41.:57:43.

about the politics and losing votes? The important thing is we gdt it

:57:44.:57:45.

The important thing is we get it right. The important thing hs

:57:46.:57:48.

The important thing is we gdt it right. The important thing is that

:57:49.:57:50.

we should not go ahead and we have got no idea what is going to happen

:57:51.:57:54.

with the toll booths. You are a Kent county council and the council's

:57:55.:57:58.

preferred option is the third option. Yes, and coming back to that

:57:59.:58:01.

point, we do need clarity on it. I point, we do need clarity on it. I

:58:02.:58:05.

agree with a lot of what Natalie said, time after time with this

:58:06.:58:09.

government we see key infrastructure carbon project being delayed. Now

:58:10.:58:10.

everything is happening aftdr the everything is happening aftdr the

:58:11.:58:18.

election. The third route would still be environmentally damaging,

:58:19.:58:18.

still be environmentally dalaging, you are still confident that is the

:58:19.:58:23.

best way? We need clarity. We do not want any more delays, we want an

:58:24.:58:25.

announcement to say where wd want any more delays, we want an

:58:26.:58:26.

announcement to say where we are going. We have got businessds and

:58:27.:58:30.

residents and the council trying to make plans for the future and they

:58:31.:58:35.

do not not what is happening. It keeps get kicked into the long

:58:36.:58:40.

grass. Time now to look at the week in 60 seconds.

:58:41.:58:51.

The bill will enhance the United Kingdom's energy independence. The

:58:52.:58:59.

Queens speech announced changing to laws to allow people to fret `` to

:59:00.:59:05.

allow fracking in people 's houses without permission. EDF has appealed

:59:06.:59:09.

to the nuclear regulator to extended operation at the Dungeness B plant

:59:10.:59:12.

but was accused of trying to move the goalposts. The energy firm wants

:59:13.:59:15.

the goalposts. The energy fhrm wants graphite bricks around the reactor

:59:16.:59:24.

to be allowed more `` degradation than the current regulation. East

:59:25.:59:28.

Sussex Fire and rescue will cut 40 jobs and use a fire engine. It needs

:59:29.:59:32.

to save ?7 million. Medway Council called an obesity summit, whth

:59:33.:59:37.

members of many sectors brainstorming idea to get residents

:59:38.:59:39.

brainstorming idea to get rdsidents slimming down. The third of adults

:59:40.:59:43.

are severely overweight there. We have got to ensure our youngsters

:59:44.:59:53.

have the best start in life. East Sussex Fire service is making those

:59:54.:59:56.

cuts, the union says it will cost lives, but they are forced to do so

:59:57.:59:58.

by the government? These are lives, but they are forced to do so

:59:59.:59:59.

by the government? These ard part of by the government? These ard part of

:00:00.:00:02.

the government's difficult decisions. We have seen some of

:00:03.:00:05.

the government's difficult decisions. We have seen somd of the

:00:06.:00:06.

worst economic conditions shnce the Second World War,

:00:07.:00:24.

my guests. That is it for the Sunday Politics in London. Back to Andrew.

:00:25.:00:36.

Is enough being done to tackle extremism in schools?

:00:37.:00:40.

Will Mr Cameron stopped Mr Junker, will make

:00:41.:00:49.

we are joined by the founder of the Quilliam Association. If you read

:00:50.:01:11.

the Sunday Telegraph this morning, there is a real problem. If you read

:01:12.:01:15.

the Observer, there is not much of a problem. What is the situation in

:01:16.:01:30.

your view in Birmingham? Allegations are seen to be -- if music was not

:01:31.:01:37.

being taught as it should be. Instead of the rating the national

:01:38.:01:41.

holidays here during the Christmas period, children were sent off

:01:42.:01:44.

instead on religious pilgrimage to Mecca, then I think something is

:01:45.:01:51.

going on. From my knowledge, I know about some of the strategies to

:01:52.:02:00.

influence. These strategies are known as gradualism. The idea, like

:02:01.:02:05.

the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is to join the institutions of society

:02:06.:02:11.

and influence from within -- from within. It is a gradual approach to

:02:12.:02:18.

Islamicisation society. We have seen that happening in other areas, such

:02:19.:02:24.

as the decision by the Law Society to call it shy and issue it out as

:02:25.:02:29.

guidance for solicitors. They are saying this means that women inherit

:02:30.:02:32.

half of what men saying this means that women inherit

:02:33.:02:41.

and adopted children do not get any inheritance. Apostates do not get

:02:42.:02:41.

any inheritance. These are guidelines being issued by the Law

:02:42.:02:46.

Society by Islamic. It is a medieval take on Islam. That is what is

:02:47.:02:52.

meant. We see the same names popping up again and again in different

:02:53.:02:59.

situations in Birmingham. Is it a planned infiltration? In my

:03:00.:03:03.

profession of you and planned infiltration? In my

:03:04.:03:05.

profession of you having spent 13 profession of you having spent 3

:03:06.:03:08.

years on the leadership of an Islamist organisation, having been

:03:09.:03:08.

involved Islamist organisation, having been

:03:09.:03:21.

and setting up schools, I am very Islamist organisation, having been

:03:22.:03:21.

certain is a deliberate plan to influence the students of this

:03:22.:03:24.

country with a medieval interpretation of my own faith to

:03:25.:03:28.

bring about a medieval, conservative view, and enforce things like

:03:29.:03:33.

segregation on boys and girls within our public institutions. With these

:03:34.:03:37.

things be acceptable if they were explicitly they schools? If they

:03:38.:03:43.

were state. We had state Anglican faith schools. We have state

:03:44.:03:49.

Catholic faith schools as well. Would it be acceptable if these were

:03:50.:03:56.

state Islamic schools? That is a policy question. I am not generally

:03:57.:04:01.

in favour. I would believe in this establishment. I am not a fan of

:04:02.:04:07.

faith schools. I do think the solution is to ban them. I do think

:04:08.:04:12.

these schools should start working out with an engaging with the wider

:04:13.:04:17.

communities and not being insular and looking inwards. It is very

:04:18.:04:22.

important. The Ofsted report is coming out tomorrow. We have already

:04:23.:04:26.

had a taste about what it is saying about some of the schools. Is it a

:04:27.:04:32.

serious problem? It is a very serious problem. It comes from the

:04:33.:04:39.

segregation of children into intensely populated areas where

:04:40.:04:42.

everyone is Muslim virtually. You have to have a system of spreading

:04:43.:04:47.

children between schools. It very often happens, even with a secular

:04:48.:04:51.

school like this. Nearby Catholic or Church of England schools become

:04:52.:04:55.

like-for-like schools and that leaves the rest of the state schools

:04:56.:04:59.

to become all of one faith. I think all of the parties are being quite

:05:00.:05:03.

hypocritical about the profound problem of continuing to have faith

:05:04.:05:09.

schools. You have Orthodox Jewish schools with extraordinary dogma

:05:10.:05:13.

being taught. Indeed very strict Catholic schools with amazing dogma

:05:14.:05:17.

being taught. To somehow only get worried when it is Islamic, when it

:05:18.:05:22.

is Muslim schools, becomes a problem. You have to look at the

:05:23.:05:26.

whole issue and said the state should simply withdraw from the

:05:27.:05:30.

business of faith education. Like France? Yes, a secular school. The

:05:31.:05:45.

overall government policy is to take power away. The dilemma with that is

:05:46.:05:50.

that it comes with dangers. Some schools will be incompetent and some

:05:51.:05:53.

schools will be more than incompetent, they will be maligned

:05:54.:05:57.

in some respects. The one bit of this policy which has never been

:05:58.:06:02.

entirely squared is how do you devolve and retain a basic minimum

:06:03.:06:07.

of educational standards and behavioural standards while doing

:06:08.:06:10.

it? There is an even deeper quandary for Britain. We have prided

:06:11.:06:14.

ourselves on allowing radical views that stop short of violence. We took

:06:15.:06:19.

on Karl Marx and the rest of Europe would not have him. The rest of

:06:20.:06:23.

Europe could not believe how tolerably well of radical preachers

:06:24.:06:27.

in the 1990s. Do we stick with that view? The risks were greater than

:06:28.:06:35.

they were 100 years ago. We do expect, whatever peoples faith, that

:06:36.:06:39.

our children, at the expense of the taxpayer, are educated, not

:06:40.:06:43.

instructed, not indoctrinated, educated. We do expect that and also

:06:44.:06:48.

that boys and girls are treated equally. One of the things the board

:06:49.:06:52.

in Birmingham will be looking at which has Andrew Mitchell on it, the

:06:53.:06:56.

former development Secretary, because he is a Birmingham MP full

:06:57.:06:59.

Sutton, they are really concerned about whether the girls are being

:07:00.:07:04.

treated as second-class citizens. There has been a lot of work done on

:07:05.:07:10.

empowerment of girls. Shirley Williams made the point that what

:07:11.:07:14.

Michael Gove has done by creating free schools and academies is

:07:15.:07:17.

undermined the work of local education authorities. They think

:07:18.:07:20.

they are traditional bodies which are not open to reform. One school

:07:21.:07:27.

in Birmingham which is accused of being in trouble is a local

:07:28.:07:35.

education school. They cannot have the other side. Under Michael Gove,

:07:36.:07:40.

they are answerable to the Secretary of State. It is down to Ofsted.

:07:41.:07:44.

Ofsted is giving the schools, not that long ago, outstanding marks.

:07:45.:07:49.

There are big questions about the oversight of schools. Tristan Hunt

:07:50.:07:53.

was trying to answer that point. By tapping it cannot all have gone pear

:07:54.:07:57.

shaped in two years. How do you think that will play out? -- it

:07:58.:08:08.

cannot have gone pear shaped. The story was broken in February. It

:08:09.:08:11.

will keep playing out. The report that was due out Ofsted is tomorrow

:08:12.:08:16.

or Monday. Then there is the other report that will look into wider

:08:17.:08:20.

questions, that will come out in July, I think. We are expecting two

:08:21.:08:29.

points. -- reports. We have to look at questions of Ofsted and other

:08:30.:08:33.

institutions in our society, even government departments, where idea

:08:34.:08:37.

of taxing non-violent extremism became a too boot in this country.

:08:38.:08:46.

-- a taboo. They must be rebuffed the challenge, as we would expect

:08:47.:08:54.

racism to be challenged. In the argument between Michael Gove and

:08:55.:08:59.

Theresa May, where do you side? They should be challenged openly and

:09:00.:09:03.

robust leap by civilian society. It was settled by the Prime Minister

:09:04.:09:08.

and is government policy. I had a hand in advising or consulting. I

:09:09.:09:17.

think Fiona Cunningham was forced to resign because what she did violates

:09:18.:09:25.

official government policy. It just has not been implemented yet. Will

:09:26.:09:45.

Mr Cameron succeed with Juncke? You'll agree he have to decide

:09:46.:09:48.

whether he will spirit at stopping him or accepting him as commission

:09:49.:09:53.

president and ask in return for a massive commission portfolio for

:09:54.:09:56.

Britain, something like the internal market, which they missed out on

:09:57.:10:00.

last time. It is a diplomatic decision he have to make. It is too

:10:01.:10:09.

late for that he is into deep. If he takes over the job, Cameron is left

:10:10.:10:14.

with egg on its face. From the beginning, he did not have his voice

:10:15.:10:21.

with the weight of the British Conservative Party, with ankle and

:10:22.:10:27.

Arkle, the rest of them. He is reaping -- Angela Merkel, the rest

:10:28.:10:32.

of them. He is reaping that reward. There is a lot of support within

:10:33.:10:42.

Europe. In Germany, there was a lot of opposition to David Cameron

:10:43.:10:47.

getting his way. I know him from Brussels. He is entertaining, you go

:10:48.:10:51.

to dinner with him and he smokes and drinks. He is entertaining but he is

:10:52.:10:55.

the most awful person you could think of having trying to sort of

:10:56.:10:59.

symbolise a new European Union. I remember I was there join the

:11:00.:11:03.

Luxembourg presidency in 2005 when the voters in France and the

:11:04.:11:06.

Netherlands voted no to the European constitution, what was his response

:11:07.:11:11.

to that? Let's carry on with the ratification process of this treaty

:11:12.:11:20.

that has been comprehensively rejected by voters. He did not say

:11:21.:11:22.

the final bit of that sentence. You can see why Eurosceptics want him.

:11:23.:11:27.

He has blown a raspy at all the people who have protested at the

:11:28.:11:31.

elections with the way the European Union is going. -- blown a Rasberry.

:11:32.:11:45.

This is your most popular... What has come in most recently is doing

:11:46.:11:59.

really well. This is yours. There we go. Cheers! By our people so

:12:00.:12:09.

cynical? They always go for a drink at 11am and they pull their own

:12:10.:12:17.

pipes. I see them every day. -- pts. Is there anything Mr Clegg can do is

:12:18.:12:24.

to mark the idea is to define clearly a liberal brand, or at least

:12:25.:12:29.

I hope it is. It is not good enough for us to say the Liberal Democrats

:12:30.:12:32.

challenge the Tories on this, on the fairer society, and challenge the

:12:33.:12:36.

Labour Party on a strong economy. We need to define what we stand for.

:12:37.:12:40.

That is what I call a liberal brand, assertive liberalism. I have been

:12:41.:12:46.

there myself and I think that is what he will be speaking about.

:12:47.:12:52.

Standing up for liberal values, to finding -- defining what they are.

:12:53.:12:57.

Disestablishment in getting younger people re-engage with politics. The

:12:58.:13:00.

overwhelming number are actually liberal. We only have about 20

:13:01.:13:07.

seconds. I suggest to you it is too late. Sign up with the one principle

:13:08.:13:14.

on which he stood is Europe. -- the one principle on which he stood if

:13:15.:13:21.

Europe. That is why he has been doing so badly. He cannot get out of

:13:22.:13:27.

the hole he is in. If you fight three general elections to the left

:13:28.:13:30.

of Labour and on the third when you are in coalition with the Tories,

:13:31.:13:44.

you have got a problem. I will be back next week. Remember if it is

:13:45.:13:51.

Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics. What's the hardest thing

:13:52.:14:19.

about being a foster parent? You're constantly trying

:14:20.:14:21.

to build the elusive trust. It's like a big old question mark

:14:22.:14:24.

in your heart. I just try and do the best I can

:14:25.:14:27.

for them while they're with me Join Lorraine Pascale as

:14:28.:14:30.

she looks at stories of fostering... I wasn't happy at all, but now I am.

:14:31.:14:33.

..including her own.

:14:34.:14:36.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS