21/05/2017 Sunday Politics South East


21/05/2017

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It's Sunday Morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:40.

Labour attacks Conservative plans for social care and to means-test

:00:41.:00:42.

So can Jeremy Corbyn eat into the Tory lead

:00:43.:00:45.

Theresa May says her party's manifesto is all about fairness.

:00:46.:00:51.

We'll be speaking to a Conservative cabinet minister about the plans.

:00:52.:00:55.

The polls have always shown healthy leads for the Conservatives.

:00:56.:00:58.

But, now we've seen the manifestos, is Labour narrowing the gap?

:00:59.:01:02.

And in the south-east: It's high on voters' list of priorities -

:01:03.:01:05.

but with the NHS out of shape here, what are the parties prescribing?

:01:06.:01:20.

And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political

:01:21.:01:23.

panel in the business: Sam Coates, Isabel Oakeshott

:01:24.:01:25.

and Steve Richards - they'll be tweeting throughout

:01:26.:01:26.

the programme, and you can get involved by using

:01:27.:01:29.

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn says pensioners will be up to ?330 a year

:01:30.:01:37.

worse off under plans outlined in the Conservative manifesto.

:01:38.:01:49.

The Work Pensions Secretary Damian Green has said his party will not

:01:50.:01:55.

rethink their plans to fund social care in England. Under the plans in

:01:56.:01:59.

the Conservative manifesto, nobody with assets of less than ?100,000,

:02:00.:02:06.

would have to pay for care. Labour has attacked the proposal, and John

:02:07.:02:10.

McDonnell, Labour's Shadow Chancellor, said this morning that

:02:11.:02:14.

there needs to be more cross-party consensus.

:02:15.:02:17.

That's why we supported Dilnot, but we also supported

:02:18.:02:19.

Because we've got to have something sustainable over generations,

:02:20.:02:22.

so that's why we've said to the Conservative Party,

:02:23.:02:25.

Let's go back to that cross-party approach that actually

:02:26.:02:28.

I just feel we've all been let down by what's come

:02:29.:02:31.

Sam, is Labour beginning to get their argument across? What we had

:02:32.:02:42.

last week was bluntly what felt like not very Lynton Crosby approved

:02:43.:02:46.

Conservative manifesto. What I mean by that is that it looks like there

:02:47.:02:50.

are things that will cause political difficulties for the party over this

:02:51.:02:55.

campaign. I've been talking to MPs and ministers who acknowledge that

:02:56.:02:59.

the social care plan is coming up on the doorstep. It has cut through

:03:00.:03:05.

very quickly, and it is worrying and deterring some voters. Not just

:03:06.:03:09.

pensioners, that people who are looking to inherit in the future.

:03:10.:03:20.

They are all asking how much they could lose that they wouldn't have

:03:21.:03:23.

lost before. A difficult question for the party to answer, given that

:03:24.:03:25.

they don't want to give too much away now. Was this a mistake, or a

:03:26.:03:31.

sign of the Conservatives' confidence? It has the hallmarks of

:03:32.:03:38.

something that has been cobbled together in a very unnaturally short

:03:39.:03:42.

time frame for putting a manifesto together. We have had mixed messages

:03:43.:03:46.

from the Tory MPs who have been out on the airwaves this morning as to

:03:47.:03:50.

whether they will consult on it whether it is just a starting point.

:03:51.:03:55.

That said, there is still three weeks to go, and most of the Tory

:03:56.:04:02.

party this morning feel this is a little light turbulence rather than

:04:03.:04:05.

anything that leaves the destination of victory in doubt. It it flips the

:04:06.:04:09.

normal politics. The Tories are going to make people who have a

:04:10.:04:13.

reasonable amount of assets pay for their social care. What is wrong

:04:14.:04:20.

with that? First, total credit for them for not pretending that all

:04:21.:04:23.

this can be done by magic, which is what normally happens in an

:04:24.:04:27.

election. The party will say, we will review this for the 95th time

:04:28.:04:33.

in the following Parliament, so they have no mandate to do anything and

:04:34.:04:37.

so do not do anything. It is courageous to do it. It is

:04:38.:04:41.

electorally risky, for the reasons that you suggest, that they pass the

:04:42.:04:47.

target their own natural supporter. And there is a sense that this is

:04:48.:04:53.

rushed through, in the frenzy to get it done in time. I think the ending

:04:54.:04:58.

of the pooling of risk and putting the entire burden on in inverted

:04:59.:05:04.

commas the victim, because you cannot insure Fritz, is against the

:05:05.:05:12.

spirit of a lot of the rest of the manifesto, and will give them huge

:05:13.:05:15.

problems if they try to implement it in the next Parliament. Let's have a

:05:16.:05:24.

look at the polls. Nearly five weeks ago, on Tuesday the 18th of April,

:05:25.:05:29.

Theresa May called the election. At that point, this was the median

:05:30.:05:34.

average of the recent polls. The Conservatives had an 18 point lead

:05:35.:05:40.

over Labour on 25%. Ukip and the Liberal Democrats were both on 18%.

:05:41.:05:48.

A draft of Labour's manifesto was leaked to the press. In the

:05:49.:05:53.

intervening weeks, support for the Conservatives and Labour had

:05:54.:05:56.

increased, that it had decreased for the Lib Dems and Ukip. Last Tuesday

:05:57.:06:02.

came the launch of the official Labour manifesto. By that time,

:06:03.:06:08.

Labour support had gone up by another 2%. The Lib Dems and Ukip

:06:09.:06:13.

had slipped back slightly. Later in the week came the manifestos from

:06:14.:06:18.

the Lib Dems and the Conservatives. This morning, for more polls. This

:06:19.:06:22.

is how the parties currently stand on average. Labour are now on 34%,

:06:23.:06:30.

up 4% since the launch of their manifesto. The Conservatives are

:06:31.:06:34.

down two points since last Tuesday. Ukip and the Lib Dems are both

:06:35.:06:41.

unchanged on 8% and 5%. You can find this poll tracker on the BBC

:06:42.:06:46.

website, see how it was calculated, and see the results of national

:06:47.:06:51.

polls over the last two years. So Isabel, is this the Tories' wobbly

:06:52.:06:55.

weekend or the start of the narrowing? This is still an

:06:56.:06:59.

extremely healthy lead for the Tories. At the start of this

:07:00.:07:06.

campaign, most commentators expected to things to happen. First, the Lib

:07:07.:07:12.

Dems would have a significant surge. That hasn't happened. Second, Labour

:07:13.:07:17.

would crash and plummet. Instead they are in the health of the low

:07:18.:07:22.

30s. I wonder if that tells you something about the tribal nature of

:07:23.:07:28.

the Labour vote, and the continuing problems with the Tory brand. I

:07:29.:07:33.

would say that a lot of Tory MPs wouldn't be too unhappy if Labour's

:07:34.:07:38.

result isn't quite as bad as has been anticipated. They don't want

:07:39.:07:44.

Corbyn to go anywhere. If the latest polls were to be the result on June

:07:45.:07:51.

the 8th, Mr Corbyn may not be in a rush to go anywhere. I still think

:07:52.:07:56.

it depends on the number of seats. If there is a landslide win, I

:07:57.:08:01.

think, one way or another, he will not stay. If it is much narrower, he

:08:02.:08:07.

has grounds for arguing he has done better than anticipated. The polls

:08:08.:08:12.

are very interesting. People compare this with 83. In 83, the Tory lead

:08:13.:08:17.

widened consistently throughout the campaign. There was the SDP -

:08:18.:08:30.

Liberal Alliance doing well in the polls. Here, the Lib Dems don't seem

:08:31.:08:33.

to be doing that. So the parallels with 83 don't really stack up. But

:08:34.:08:35.

let's see what happens. Still early days for the a lot of people are

:08:36.:08:38.

saying this is the result of the social care policy. We don't really

:08:39.:08:43.

know that. How do you beat them? In the last week or so, there's been

:08:44.:08:47.

the decision by some to hold their nose and vote Labour, who haven't

:08:48.:08:52.

done so before. Probably the biggest thing in this election is how the

:08:53.:08:56.

Right has reunited behind Theresa May. That figure for Ukip is

:08:57.:09:03.

incredibly small. She has brought those Ukip voters behind her, and

:09:04.:09:09.

that could be the decisive factor in many seats, rather than the Labour

:09:10.:09:13.

share of the boat picking up a bit or down a bit, depending on how

:09:14.:09:18.

turbulent the Tory manifesto makes it. Thank you for that.

:09:19.:09:21.

We've finally got our hands on the manifestos of the two main

:09:22.:09:24.

parties and, for once, voters can hardly complain that

:09:25.:09:26.

So, just how big is the choice on offer to the public?

:09:27.:09:30.

Since the Liberal Democrats and SNP have ruled out

:09:31.:09:32.

coalitions after June 8th, Adam Fleming compares the Labour

:09:33.:09:34.

Welcome to the BBC's election centre.

:09:35.:09:37.

Four minutes from now, when Big Ben strikes 10.00,

:09:38.:09:41.

we can legally reveal the contents of this, our exit poll.

:09:42.:09:45.

18 days to go, and the BBC's election night studio

:09:46.:09:47.

This is where David Dimbleby will sit, although there is no chair yet.

:09:48.:09:57.

The parties' policies are now the finished product.

:09:58.:10:00.

In Bradford, Jeremy Corbyn vowed a bigger state,

:10:01.:10:03.

the end of austerity, no more tuition fees.

:10:04.:10:06.

The Tory campaign, by contrast, is built on one word - fear.

:10:07.:10:14.

Down the road in Halifax, Theresa May kept a promise to get

:10:15.:10:22.

immigration down to the tens of thousands, and talked

:10:23.:10:25.

of leadership and tough choices in uncertain times.

:10:26.:10:28.

Strengthen my hand as I fight for Britain, and stand with me

:10:29.:10:35.

And, with confidence in ourselves and a unity

:10:36.:10:41.

of purpose in our country, let us go forward together.

:10:42.:10:48.

Let's look at the Labour and Conservative

:10:49.:10:51.

On tax, Labour would introduce a 50p rate for top earners.

:10:52.:10:57.

The Conservatives ditched their triple lock, giving them

:10:58.:11:21.

freedom to put up income tax and national insurance,

:11:22.:11:23.

although they want to keep the overall tax burden the same.

:11:24.:11:26.

Labour offered a major overhaul of the country's wiring,

:11:27.:11:28.

with a pledge to renationalise infrastructure, like power,

:11:29.:11:30.

The Conservatives said that would cost a fortune,

:11:31.:11:33.

but provided few details for the cost of their policies.

:11:34.:11:35.

Labour have simply become a shambles, and, as yesterday's

:11:36.:11:37.

manifesto showed, their numbers simply do not add up.

:11:38.:11:39.

What have they got planned for health and social care?

:11:40.:11:42.

The Conservatives offered more cash for the NHS,

:11:43.:11:46.

reaching an extra ?8 billion a year by the end of the parliament.

:11:47.:11:49.

Labour promised an extra ?30 billion over the course of the same period,

:11:50.:11:53.

plus free hospital parking and more pay for staff.

:11:54.:11:59.

The Conservatives would increase the value of assets you could

:12:00.:12:06.

protect from the cost of social care to ?100,000, but your home would be

:12:07.:12:09.

added to the assessment of your wealth,

:12:10.:12:11.

There was a focus on one group of voters in particular

:12:12.:12:15.

Labour would keep the triple lock, which guarantees that pensions go up

:12:16.:12:21.

The Tories would keep the increase in line

:12:22.:12:26.

with inflation or earnings, a double lock.

:12:27.:12:30.

The Conservatives would end of winter fuel payments

:12:31.:12:32.

for the richest, although we don't know exactly who that would be,

:12:33.:12:36.

This is a savage attack on vulnerable pensioners,

:12:37.:12:44.

particularly those who are just about managing.

:12:45.:12:48.

It is disgraceful, and we are calling upon the Conservative Party

:12:49.:12:52.

When it comes to leaving the European Union, Labour say

:12:53.:12:59.

they'd sweep away the government's negotiating strategy,

:13:00.:13:02.

secure a better deal and straightaway guaranteed the rights

:13:03.:13:05.

The Tories say a big majority would remove political uncertainty

:13:06.:13:11.

Jeremy Vine's due here in two and a half weeks.

:13:12.:13:23.

I'm joined now by David Gauke, who is Chief Secretary to the Treasury.

:13:24.:13:29.

Welcome back to the programme. The Tories once promised a cap on social

:13:30.:13:35.

care costs. Why have you abandoned that? We've looked at it, and there

:13:36.:13:43.

are couple of proposals with the Dilnot proposal. Much of the benefit

:13:44.:13:48.

would go to those inheriting larger estates. The second point was it was

:13:49.:13:52.

hoped that a cap would stimulate the larger insurance products that would

:13:53.:13:58.

fill the gap, but there is no sign that those products are emerging.

:13:59.:14:04.

Without a cap, you will not get one. We have come forward with a new

:14:05.:14:08.

proposal which we think is fairer, provide more money for social care,

:14:09.:14:12.

which is very important and is one of the big issues we face as a

:14:13.:14:17.

country. It is right that we face those big issues. Social care is

:14:18.:14:22.

one, getting a good Brexit deal is another. This demonstrates that

:14:23.:14:30.

Theresa May has an ambition to lead a government that addresses those

:14:31.:14:32.

big long-term issues. Looking at social care. If you have assets,

:14:33.:14:38.

including your home, of over ?100,000, you have to pay for all

:14:39.:14:43.

your social care costs. Is that fair? It is right that for the

:14:44.:14:47.

services that are provided to you, that that is paid out of your

:14:48.:14:53.

assets, subject to two really important qualifications. First, you

:14:54.:14:57.

shouldn't have your entire estate wiped out. At the moment, if you are

:14:58.:15:04.

in residential care, it can be wiped out ?223,000. If you are in

:15:05.:15:09.

domiciliary care, it can be out to ?23,000, plus you're domiciliary.

:15:10.:15:16.

Nobody should be forced to sell their house in their lifetime if

:15:17.:15:20.

they or their spouse needs long-term care. Again, we have protected that

:15:21.:15:22.

in the proposals we set out. But the state will basically take a

:15:23.:15:32.

chunk of your house when you die and they sell. In an essence it is a

:15:33.:15:37.

stealth inheritance tax on everything above ?100,000. But we

:15:38.:15:41.

have those two important protections. I am including that. It

:15:42.:15:45.

is a stealth inheritance tax. We have to face up to the fact that

:15:46.:15:49.

there are significant costs that we face as a country in terms of health

:15:50.:15:54.

and social careful. Traditionally, politicians don't address those

:15:55.:15:58.

issues, particularly during election campaigns. I think it is too Theresa

:15:59.:16:04.

May's credit that we are being straightforward with the British

:16:05.:16:07.

people and saying that we face this long-term challenge. Our manifesto

:16:08.:16:10.

was about the big challenges that we face, one of which was

:16:11.:16:14.

intergenerational fairness and one of which was delivering a strong

:16:15.:16:18.

economy and making sure that we can do that. But in the end, someone is

:16:19.:16:25.

going to have to pay for this. It is going to have to be a balance

:16:26.:16:28.

between the general taxpayer and those receiving the services. We

:16:29.:16:31.

think we have struck the right balance with this proposal. But it

:16:32.:16:35.

is entirely on the individual. People watching this programme, if

:16:36.:16:39.

they have a fair amount of assets, not massive, including the home,

:16:40.:16:46.

they will need to pay for everything themselves until their assets are

:16:47.:16:50.

reduced to ?100,000. It is not a balance, you're putting everything

:16:51.:16:55.

on the original two individual. At the moment, for those in residential

:16:56.:17:01.

care, they have to pay everything until 20 3000. -- everything on the

:17:02.:17:06.

individual. But now they will face more. Those in individual care are

:17:07.:17:09.

seeing their protection going up by four times as much, so that is

:17:10.:17:13.

eliminating unfairness. Why should those in residential care be in a

:17:14.:17:17.

worse position than those receiving domiciliary care? But as I say, that

:17:18.:17:23.

money has to come from somewhere and we are sitting at a proper plan for

:17:24.:17:26.

it. While also made the point that we are more likely to be able to

:17:27.:17:30.

have a properly functioning social care market if we have a strong

:17:31.:17:34.

economy, and to have a strong economy we need to deliver a good

:17:35.:17:37.

deal on Brexit and I think Theresa May is capable of doing that. You

:17:38.:17:42.

have said that before. But if you have a heart attack in old age, the

:17:43.:17:46.

NHS will take care of you. If you have dementia, you now have to pay

:17:47.:17:50.

for the care of yourself. Is that they are? It is already the case

:17:51.:17:54.

that if you have long-term care costs come up as I say, if you are

:17:55.:17:59.

in residential care you pay for all of it until the last ?23,000, but if

:18:00.:18:04.

you are in domiciliary care, excluding your housing assets, but

:18:05.:18:08.

all of your other assets get used up until you are down to ?23,000 a

:18:09.:18:14.

year. And I think it is right at this point that a party that aspires

:18:15.:18:21.

to run this country for the long-term, to address the long-term

:18:22.:18:24.

challenges we have is a country, for us to be clear that we need to

:18:25.:18:29.

deliver this. Because if it is not paid for it this way, if it goes and

:18:30.:18:35.

falls on the general taxpayer, the people who feel hard pressed by the

:18:36.:18:39.

amount of income tax and VAT they pay, frankly we have to say to them,

:18:40.:18:43.

those taxes will go up if we do not address it. But they might go up

:18:44.:18:48.

anyway. The average house price in your part of the country is just shy

:18:49.:18:54.

of ?430,000, so if you told your own constituents that they might have to

:18:55.:18:58.

spend ?300,000 of their assets on social care before the state steps

:18:59.:19:03.

in to help...? As I said earlier, nobody will be forced to pay during

:19:04.:19:08.

their lifetime. Nobody will be forced to sell their houses. We are

:19:09.:19:14.

providing that protection because of the third premium. Which makes it a

:19:15.:19:18.

kind of death tax, doesn't it? Which is what you use to rail against.

:19:19.:19:24.

What it is people paying for the services they have paid out of their

:19:25.:19:28.

assets. But with that very important protection that nobody is going to

:19:29.:19:32.

be wiped out in the way that has happened up until now, down to the

:19:33.:19:37.

last three years. But when Labour propose this, George Osborne called

:19:38.:19:41.

it a death tax and you are now proposing a stealth death tax

:19:42.:19:45.

inheritance tax. Labour's proposals were very different. It is the same

:19:46.:19:51.

effect. Labour's were hitting everyone with an inheritance tax. We

:19:52.:19:58.

are saying that there are -- that there is a state contribution but

:19:59.:20:01.

the public receiving the services will have to pay for it out of

:20:02.:20:07.

assets, which have grown substantially. And which they might

:20:08.:20:11.

now lose to social care. But I would say that people in Hertfordshire pay

:20:12.:20:15.

a lot in income tracks, national insurance and VAT, and this is my

:20:16.:20:20.

bet is going to have to come from somewhere. Well, they are now going

:20:21.:20:24.

to pay a lot of tax and pay for social care. Turning to immigration,

:20:25.:20:29.

you promised to get net migration down to 100,020 ten. You failed. You

:20:30.:20:34.

promised again in 2015 and you are feeling again. Why should voters

:20:35.:20:38.

trust you a third time? It is very clear that only the Conservative

:20:39.:20:42.

Party has an ambition to control immigration and to bring it down. An

:20:43.:20:48.

ambition you have failed to deliver. There are, of course, factors that

:20:49.:20:51.

come into play. For example a couple of years ago we were going through a

:20:52.:20:55.

period when the UK was creating huge numbers of jobs but none of our

:20:56.:20:59.

European neighbours were doing anything like it. Not surprisingly,

:21:00.:21:02.

that feeds through into the immigration numbers that we see. But

:21:03.:21:09.

it is right that we have that ambition because I do not believe it

:21:10.:21:14.

is sustainable to have hundreds of thousands net migration, you're

:21:15.:21:18.

after year after year, and only Theresa May of the Conservative

:21:19.:21:22.

Party is willing to address that. It has gone from being a target to an

:21:23.:21:26.

ambition, and I am pretty sure in a couple of years it will become an

:21:27.:21:30.

untimed aspiration. Is net migration now higher or lower than when you

:21:31.:21:36.

came to power in 2010? I think it is higher at the moment. Let's look at

:21:37.:21:41.

the figures. And there they are. You are right, it is higher, so after

:21:42.:21:46.

six years in power, promising to get it down to 100,000, it is higher. So

:21:47.:21:53.

if that is an ambition and you have not succeeded. We have to accept

:21:54.:21:57.

that there are a number of factors. It continues to be the case that the

:21:58.:22:02.

UK economy is growing and creating a lot of jobs, which is undoubtedly

:22:03.:22:06.

drawing people. But you made the promise on the basis that would not

:22:07.:22:09.

happen? We are certainly outperforming other countries in a

:22:10.:22:12.

way that we could not have predicted in 2010. That is one of the factors.

:22:13.:22:17.

But if you look at a lot of the steps that we have taken over the

:22:18.:22:20.

course of the last seven years, dealing with bogus students, for

:22:21.:22:26.

example, tightening up a lot of the rules. You can say all that but it

:22:27.:22:30.

has made no difference to the headline figure. Clearly it would

:22:31.:22:33.

have gone up by much more and we not taken the steps. But as I say, we

:22:34.:22:38.

cannot for ever, it seems to me, have net migration numbers in the

:22:39.:22:44.

hundreds of thousands. If we get that good Brexit deal, one of the

:22:45.:22:48.

things we can do is tighten up in terms of access here. You say that

:22:49.:22:53.

but you have always had control of non-EU migration. You cannot blame

:22:54.:22:57.

the EU for that. You control immigration from outside the EU.

:22:58.:23:00.

Have you ever managed to get even that below 100,000? Well, no doubt

:23:01.:23:07.

you will present the numbers now. You haven't. You have got down a bit

:23:08.:23:12.

from 2010, I will give you that, but even non-EU migration is still a lot

:23:13.:23:17.

more than 100000 and that is the thing you control. It is 164,000 on

:23:18.:23:22.

the latest figures. There is no point in saying to the voters that

:23:23.:23:25.

when we get control of the EU migration you will get it down when

:23:26.:23:28.

the bit you have control over, you have failed to get that down into

:23:29.:23:34.

the tens of thousands. The general trend has gone up. Non-EU migration

:23:35.:23:38.

we have brought down over the last few years. Not by much, not by

:23:39.:23:44.

anywhere near your 100,000 target. But we clearly have more tools

:23:45.:23:49.

available to us, following Brexit. At this rate it will be around 2030

:23:50.:23:54.

before you get non-EU migration down to 100,000. We clearly have more

:23:55.:23:57.

tools available to us and I return to the point I made. In the last six

:23:58.:24:01.

or seven years, particularly the last four or five, we have seen the

:24:02.:24:05.

UK jobs market growing substantially. It is extraordinary

:24:06.:24:09.

how many more jobs we have. So you'll only promised the migration

:24:10.:24:12.

target because you did not think you were going to run the economy well?

:24:13.:24:17.

That is what you are telling me. I don't think anyone expected us to

:24:18.:24:20.

create quite a number of jobs that we have done over the last six or

:24:21.:24:24.

seven years. At the time when other European countries have not been.

:24:25.:24:28.

George Osborne says your target is economically illiterate. I disagree

:24:29.:24:33.

with George on that. He is my old boss but I disagree with him on that

:24:34.:24:40.

point. And the reason I say that is looking at the economics and the

:24:41.:24:43.

wider social impact, I don't think it is sustainable for us to have

:24:44.:24:49.

hundreds of thousands, year after year after year. Let me ask you one

:24:50.:24:52.

other thing because you are the chief secretary. Your promising that

:24:53.:24:56.

spending on health will be ?8 billion higher in five use time than

:24:57.:25:01.

it is now. How do you pay for that? From a strong economy, two years ago

:25:02.:25:04.

we had a similar conversation because at that point we said that

:25:05.:25:10.

we would increase spending by ?8 billion. And we are more than on

:25:11.:25:14.

track to deliver it, because it is a priority area for us. Where will the

:25:15.:25:18.

money come from? It will be a priority area for us. We will find

:25:19.:25:23.

the money. So you have not been able to show us a revenue line where this

:25:24.:25:28.

?8 billion will come from. We have a record of making promises to spend

:25:29.:25:32.

more on the NHS and delivering. One thing I would say is that the only

:25:33.:25:37.

way you can spend more money on the NHS is if you have a strong economy,

:25:38.:25:42.

and the biggest risk... But that is true of anything. I am trying to

:25:43.:25:46.

find out where the ?8 billion come from, where will it come from? Know

:25:47.:25:50.

you were saying that perhaps you might increase taxes, ticking off

:25:51.:25:53.

the lock, so people are right to be suspicious. But you will not tell us

:25:54.:26:00.

where the ?8 billion will come from. Andrew, a strong economy is key to

:26:01.:26:04.

delivering more NHS money. That does not tell us where the money is

:26:05.:26:08.

coming from. The biggest risk to a strong economy would be a bad

:26:09.:26:12.

Brexit, which Jeremy Corbyn would deliver. And we have a record of

:26:13.:26:17.

putting more money into the NHS. I think that past performance we can

:26:18.:26:20.

take forward. Thank you for joining us.

:26:21.:26:22.

So, the Conservatives have been taking a bit of flak

:26:23.:26:24.

But Conservative big guns have been out and about this morning taking

:26:25.:26:28.

Here's Boris Johnson on ITV's Peston programme earlier today:

:26:29.:26:32.

What we're trying to do is to address what I think

:26:33.:26:36.

everybody, all serious demographers acknowledge will be the massive

:26:37.:26:39.

problem of the cost of social care long-term.

:26:40.:26:43.

This is a responsible, grown-up, conservative approach,

:26:44.:26:47.

trying to deal with a long-term problem in a way that is equitable,

:26:48.:26:50.

allows people to pass on a very substantial sum,

:26:51.:26:52.

still, to their kids, and takes away the fear

:26:53.:26:54.

Joining me now from Liverpool is Labour's Shadow Chief Secretary

:26:55.:27:01.

Petered out, welcome to the programme. Let's start with social

:27:02.:27:12.

care. The Tories are saying that if you have ?100,000 or more in assets,

:27:13.:27:16.

you should pay for your own social care. What is wrong with that? Well,

:27:17.:27:22.

I think the issue at the end of the day is the question of fairness. Is

:27:23.:27:26.

it fair? And what we're trying to do is to get to a situation where we

:27:27.:27:30.

have, for example, the Dilnot report, which identified that you

:27:31.:27:36.

actually have cap on your spending on social care. We are trying to get

:27:37.:27:39.

to a position where it is a reasonable and fair approach to

:27:40.:27:45.

expenditure. But you will know that a lot of people, particularly in the

:27:46.:27:50.

south of country, London and the south-east, and the adjacent areas

:27:51.:27:54.

around it, they have benefited from huge house price inflation. They

:27:55.:27:57.

have seen their homes go up in value, if and when they sell, they

:27:58.:28:02.

are not taxed on that increase. Why should these people not pay for

:28:03.:28:08.

their own social care if they have the assets to do so? They will be

:28:09.:28:12.

paying for some of their social care but you cannot take social care and

:28:13.:28:17.

health care separately. It has to be an integrated approach. So for

:28:18.:28:20.

example if you do have dementia, you're more likely to be in an

:28:21.:28:24.

elderly person's home for longer and you most probably have been in care

:28:25.:28:28.

for a longer period of time. On the other hand, you might have, if you

:28:29.:28:32.

have had a stroke, there may be continuing care needs paid for by

:28:33.:28:35.

the NHS. So at the end of the date it is trying to get a reasonable

:28:36.:28:39.

balance and just to pluck a figure of ?100,000 out of thin air is not

:28:40.:28:48.

sensible. You will have heard me say about David Gold that the house

:28:49.:28:53.

prices in his area, about 450,000 or so, not quite that, and that people

:28:54.:28:57.

may have to spend quite a lot of that on social care to get down to

:28:58.:29:02.

?100,000. But in your area, the average house price is only

:29:03.:29:07.

?149,000, so your people would not have to pay anything like as much

:29:08.:29:12.

before they hit the ?100,000 minimum. I hesitate to say that but

:29:13.:29:18.

is that not almost a socialist approach to social care that if you

:29:19.:29:21.

are in the affluent Home Counties with a big asset, you pay more, and

:29:22.:29:26.

if you are in an area that is not so affluent and your house is not worth

:29:27.:29:29.

very much, you pay a lot less. What is wrong with that principle? I

:29:30.:29:34.

think the problem I am trying to get to is this issue about equity across

:29:35.:29:38.

the piece. At the end of the day, what we want is a system whereby it

:29:39.:29:44.

is capped at a particular level, and the Dilnot report, after much

:29:45.:29:48.

examination, said we should have a cap on care costs at ?72,000. The

:29:49.:29:52.

Conservatives decided to ditch that and come up with another policy

:29:53.:29:56.

which by all accounts seems to be even more Draconian. At the end of

:29:57.:30:00.

the day it is trying to get social care and an NHS care in a much more

:30:01.:30:10.

fluid way. We had offered the Conservatives to have a bipartisan

:30:11.:30:12.

approach to this. David just said that this is a long term. You do not

:30:13.:30:17.

pick a figure out of thin air and use that as a long-term strategy.

:30:18.:30:23.

The Conservatives are now saying they will increase health spending

:30:24.:30:28.

over the next five years in real terms. You will increase health

:30:29.:30:33.

spending. In what way is your approach to health spending better

:30:34.:30:39.

than the Tories' now? We are contributing an extra 7.2 billion to

:30:40.:30:45.

the NHS and social care over the next few years. But you just don't

:30:46.:30:50.

put money into the NHS or social care. It has to be an integrated

:30:51.:30:55.

approach to social and health care. What we've got is just more of the

:30:56.:30:59.

same. What we don't want to do is just say, we ring-fenced an out for

:31:00.:31:04.

here or there. What you have to do is try to get that... Let me ask you

:31:05.:31:13.

again. In terms of the amount of resource that is going to be devoted

:31:14.:31:17.

in the next five years, and resource does matter for the NHS, in what way

:31:18.:31:23.

are your plans different now from the Conservative plans? The key is

:31:24.:31:27.

how you use that resource. By just putting money in, you've got to say,

:31:28.:31:33.

if we are going to put that money on, how do we use it? As somebody

:31:34.:31:39.

who has worked in social care for 40 years, you have to have a different

:31:40.:31:43.

approach to how you use that money. The money we are putting in, 7.7,

:31:44.:31:49.

may be similar in cash terms to what the Tories claim they are putting

:31:50.:31:53.

in, but it's not how much you put in per se, it is how you use it. You

:31:54.:32:07.

are going to get rid of car parking charges in hospital, and you are

:32:08.:32:10.

going to increase pay by taking the cap on pay off. So it doesn't

:32:11.:32:12.

necessarily follow that the money, under your way of doing it, will

:32:13.:32:15.

follow the front line. What you need in the NHS is a system that is

:32:16.:32:19.

capable of dealing with the patience you have. What we have now is on at

:32:20.:32:26.

five Asian of the NHS. Staff leaving, not being paid properly. So

:32:27.:32:36.

pay and the NHS go hand in hand. Let's move onto another area of

:32:37.:32:39.

policy where there is some confusion. Who speaks for the Labour

:32:40.:32:45.

Party on nuclear weapons? Is it Emily Thornbury, or Nia Griffith,

:32:46.:32:52.

defence spokesperson? The Labour manifesto. It is clear. We are

:32:53.:32:56.

committed to the nuclear deterrent, and that is the definitive... Is it?

:32:57.:33:07.

Emily Thornbury said that Trident could be scrapped in the defence

:33:08.:33:11.

review you would have immediately after taking power. On LBC on Friday

:33:12.:33:16.

night. She didn't, actually. I listened to that. What she actually

:33:17.:33:22.

said is, as part of a Labour government coming in, a new

:33:23.:33:26.

government, there is always a defence review. But not the concept

:33:27.:33:31.

of Trident in its substance. She said there would be a review in

:33:32.:33:38.

terms of, and this is in our manifesto. When you reduce

:33:39.:33:42.

something, you review how it is operated. The review could scrap

:33:43.:33:48.

Trident. It won't scrap Trident. The review is in the context of how you

:33:49.:33:53.

protect it from cyber attacks. This will issue was seized upon that she

:33:54.:33:59.

was saying that we would have another review of Trident or Labour

:34:00.:34:04.

would ditch it. That is nonsense. You will have seen some reports that

:34:05.:34:11.

MI5 opened a file on Jeremy Corbyn in the early 90s because of his

:34:12.:34:15.

links to Irish republicanism. This has caused some people, his links to

:34:16.:34:23.

the IRA and Sinn Fein, it has caused some concern. Could you just listen

:34:24.:34:30.

to this clip and react. Do you condemn what the IRA did? I condemn

:34:31.:34:37.

all bombing. But do you condemn what the IRA did? I condemn what was done

:34:38.:34:41.

with the British Army as well as both sides as well. What happened in

:34:42.:34:46.

Derry in 1972 was pretty devastating as well. Do you distinguish between

:34:47.:34:53.

state forces, what the British Army did and the IRA? Well, in a sense,

:34:54.:34:59.

the treatment of IRA prisoners which made them into virtual political

:35:00.:35:05.

prisoners suggested that the British government and the state saw some

:35:06.:35:09.

kind of almost equivalent in it. My point is that the whole violence if

:35:10.:35:16.

you was terrible, was appalling, and came out of a process that had been

:35:17.:35:23.

allowed to fester in Northern Ireland for a very long time. That

:35:24.:35:28.

was from about two years ago. Can you explain why the Leader of the

:35:29.:35:32.

Labour Party, Her Majesty 's opposition, the man who would be our

:35:33.:35:36.

next Prime Minister, finds it so hard to condemn IRA arming? I think

:35:37.:35:42.

it has to be within the context that Jeremy Corbyn for many years trying

:35:43.:35:46.

to move the peace protest... Process along. So why wouldn't you condemn

:35:47.:35:55.

IRA bombing? Again, that was an issue, a traumatic event in Irish -

:35:56.:36:02.

British relations that went on for 30 years. It is a complicated

:36:03.:36:08.

matter. Bombing is not that complicated. If you are a man of

:36:09.:36:13.

peace, surely you would condemn the bomb and the bullet? Let me say

:36:14.:36:17.

this, I condemn the bomb and the bullet. Why can't your leader? You

:36:18.:36:23.

would have to ask Jeremy Corbyn, but that is in the context of what he

:36:24.:36:28.

was trying to do over a 25 year period to move the priest process

:36:29.:36:30.

along. Thank you for joining us. It's just gone 11.35,

:36:31.:36:33.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:36:34.:36:35.

in Scotland and Wales. I'm Natalie Graham and this

:36:36.:36:45.

is the Sunday Politics This morning - in the second

:36:46.:36:47.

of our general election programmes focusing on key issues affecting

:36:48.:36:56.

this region, we'll be looking Do any of the parties

:36:57.:36:58.

have the right medicine to make And I'll be in Tonbridge in Kent,

:36:59.:37:02.

where kids are slugging it out on the football field on this

:37:03.:37:09.

Sunnny Sunday morning. We'll be talking education -

:37:10.:37:11.

what policies will score politicians Lots to talk about in

:37:12.:37:14.

the next 20 minutes. the Labour candidate in Hastings

:37:15.:37:18.

and Rye, Caroline Ansell, the Conservative Candidate for

:37:19.:37:23.

Eastbourne and Stephen Priestley, who's standing for UKIP

:37:24.:37:25.

in Folkestone and Hythe. We're going to start with

:37:26.:37:27.

the promises made by the parties Last week the three biggest parties

:37:28.:37:34.

set out their intentions As start with you, Caroline Ansell

:37:35.:37:44.

because you are defending a very small majority against the Lib Dems.

:37:45.:37:52.

The seat has a high number of elderly people and a relatively high

:37:53.:37:58.

property price. Your heart must some use of the manifesto, ?100,000 after

:37:59.:38:03.

the social care plan changes does not leave you much in the south of

:38:04.:38:08.

England. When it was released the reaction I was having on the

:38:09.:38:13.

doorstep was this was bald. The portal manifesto was bold, brave and

:38:14.:38:18.

had a degree of honesty -- the manifesto was.... -- the manifesto

:38:19.:38:29.

was.... We have been the party of Government and potentially will be

:38:30.:38:31.

agents game so there must be within the manifesto real action and real

:38:32.:38:40.

change. When they say bold do they like it? Most people, not just the

:38:41.:38:45.

elderly, their children and grandchildren who were hoping to

:38:46.:38:49.

benefit from property prices are very worried. Very often people

:38:50.:38:54.

reference their children and grandchildren and do not want them

:38:55.:38:58.

to be paying the cost for provision made now that cannot be delivered or

:38:59.:39:02.

afforded and that has been something that has often been said on the

:39:03.:39:07.

doorstep. People recognise it is bold and recognised the merit in

:39:08.:39:11.

very important detail to come and very important detail to come and

:39:12.:39:15.

that is where people have most questions that if they do have

:39:16.:39:19.

concerns, around the detail. Do you think, I mean, it is..., do

:39:20.:39:25.

you think Theresa May has been a declaration she is so far I have in

:39:26.:39:32.

the polls she can afford to lose if you vote here because she will make

:39:33.:39:36.

gains elsewhere in the country? I do not think so but I think there is a

:39:37.:39:42.

level of honesty around the very real challenges we will face should

:39:43.:39:46.

we be the party of Government once more and that is right has got to be

:39:47.:39:52.

fair. What I'm most welcome in the manifesto after campaigning very

:39:53.:39:58.

hard for, was the real lift in school funding.

:39:59.:40:00.

The Labour manifesto will have gone down very well with traditional

:40:01.:40:07.

Labour voters and may attract a lot of Green voters because it has quite

:40:08.:40:10.

a lot in common with their policies but in order to get into Government

:40:11.:40:15.

you must win back in places like Kent where you had seats under Tony

:40:16.:40:19.

Blair. How will your manifesto attract those people who have gone

:40:20.:40:23.

over to the Tories and Ukip? Because it appeals to a majority of people.

:40:24.:40:27.

What taxation plans, 95% of people What taxation plans, 95% of people

:40:28.:40:33.

will not be affected, and the spending commitments we made our

:40:34.:40:39.

funded and properly set out and the taxation for those will not affect

:40:40.:40:44.

most people saw just that basic message is important.

:40:45.:40:46.

There is some doubt about whether you will raise the amount of tax you

:40:47.:40:51.

say you will but on the issue of attracting voters in seats in

:40:52.:40:54.

Rochester, said that where there used to be Labour MP and just the

:40:55.:41:00.

basic of getting back into Government means you need to win

:41:01.:41:04.

there. How was the issue of not putting a limit on immigration when

:41:05.:41:10.

back Ukip voters? Because it has other policies around things like

:41:11.:41:14.

the NHS and education, housing and so on and those kind of very

:41:15.:41:18.

positive and radical policy that will win people over and issues like

:41:19.:41:24.

immigration, as I say, artificial targets simply will not work and I

:41:25.:41:28.

think you can get those arguments across but what people really care

:41:29.:41:35.

about is things like housing, NHS, education and social care.

:41:36.:41:39.

We will talk about those in the moment. Stephen Priestley, Ukip has

:41:40.:41:43.

not published the manifesto get unduly dubs said he was caught out

:41:44.:41:49.

slightly by the snap election -- he said he was caught out. How can we

:41:50.:41:54.

take you to get to be asleep when you prove to be scrambling around

:41:55.:42:01.

for policies full? Some of the -- take Ukip seriously. I would say

:42:02.:42:07.

some of the UK policies such as grammar schools have now been taken

:42:08.:42:11.

by the Tories. They rather like that one and that has always been a Ukip

:42:12.:42:17.

policy. We have always been a very committed to the NHS and as someone

:42:18.:42:22.

who works in the NHS myself and have done so for 20 years, the people in

:42:23.:42:31.

Kent really face a disadvantage because there is a disparity without

:42:32.:42:36.

wanting to become too technical, there is a formula which calculates

:42:37.:42:41.

the GP provision which they get from the clinical commissioning groups.

:42:42.:42:45.

Now, my point is that there are parts of Kent which get much less

:42:46.:42:49.

funding than other more affluent parts of Kent, in spite of the fact

:42:50.:42:56.

they are socially at a much greater disadvantage. I would say, are the

:42:57.:43:01.

people in the socially deprived parts of Kent worth less than those

:43:02.:43:06.

in the more affluent parts? And will we see that in the manifesto orders

:43:07.:43:12.

that just your policy? We will see a commitment to NHS. You have neatly

:43:13.:43:17.

led us into it. Now, cradle to grave care

:43:18.:43:19.

was the founding idea But many of our hospitals and

:43:20.:43:21.

GP surgeries are struggling So with the NHS high on the list

:43:22.:43:25.

of priorities for voters, what would the

:43:26.:43:29.

different parties prescribe? Bhavani Vadde has been taking a look

:43:30.:43:30.

in the most marginal constituency in the south-east -

:43:31.:43:33.

Brighton Kemptown. And this is the country's

:43:34.:43:35.

first eco gym. Read more they work out the more

:43:36.:43:37.

electricity they generate, And this is the country's

:43:38.:43:42.

first eco gym. Read more they work out the more

:43:43.:43:44.

electricity they generate, which offsets the energy costs

:43:45.:43:46.

for this business. If only NHS funding issues

:43:47.:43:48.

for the area could be solved so easily, because this gym

:43:49.:43:51.

is in Brighton, where the health The Brighton and Sussex University

:43:52.:43:56.

Hospital trust is in special measures and it also ended

:43:57.:44:07.

the financial year nearly And Brighton and Hove CCG,

:44:08.:44:09.

the organisation that plans and funds community health services

:44:10.:44:15.

such as GPs, has been I do not think the problems

:44:16.:44:18.

are unique to Brighton. In some ways Brighton is a microcosm

:44:19.:44:21.

for the problems faced by the NHS as a whole because the problems

:44:22.:44:25.

are right across the system and on almost every single aspect

:44:26.:44:27.

of health and social care. This gym happens to be in the heart

:44:28.:44:32.

of Brighton Kemptown, the most marginal constituency

:44:33.:44:34.

in the south-east, where the Conservatives won with a slim

:44:35.:44:38.

majority of 690 votes in 2015. So, could pledges on the NHS be

:44:39.:44:43.

a deciding factor on who wins This election is going to be

:44:44.:44:49.

the making or breaking of the NHS. We need to stop focusing so much

:44:50.:44:58.

on Brexit I think about the loss I have a son who has a neuromuscular

:44:59.:45:03.

condition which is a life limiting and we are seeing a lot

:45:04.:45:14.

of different health professionals. I think it's under threat

:45:15.:45:17.

because of the funding crisis. What do the political hopefuls

:45:18.:45:24.

of Brighton Kemptown propose as solutions to issues with the NHS,

:45:25.:45:26.

here and across the south-east? Labour's candidate is

:45:27.:45:29.

Lloyd Russell-Moyle. His party has pledged over

:45:30.:45:31.

?30 billion in extra funding for the NHS over the next

:45:32.:45:37.

parliament, by increasing income What that will do is it

:45:38.:45:39.

will make the hospital trusts have an investment so they can start

:45:40.:45:46.

to perform well. They will be able to start

:45:47.:45:49.

to recruit staff, which they have not been able to do as efficiently

:45:50.:45:52.

as we would like them to do. It will mean people who are patient

:45:53.:45:57.

can see doctors and a consultant within 18 week rather

:45:58.:46:01.

than sometimes the 12 month The Liberal Democrats

:46:02.:46:04.

are represented by Emily Tester, the party wants to put a penny

:46:05.:46:07.

in the pound on income tax to raise ?6 billion additional revenue that

:46:08.:46:12.

will be ring fenced for the NHS In this area it will bring a lot

:46:13.:46:15.

of money, 20 million for Brighton and Hove in total,

:46:16.:46:19.

5 million for mental health spending as well,

:46:20.:46:24.

which is an area which is Having that boost in funding

:46:25.:46:28.

will really help provide the services we need because this

:46:29.:46:32.

is an area where the NHS The Conservative candidate

:46:33.:46:35.

for Brighton Kemptown, Simon Kirby, was not available for interview,

:46:36.:46:39.

so we spoke to Henry Smith, who is standing in Crawley,

:46:40.:46:44.

where the hospital trust is the only one in the region has

:46:45.:46:47.

been rated as good. The Conservative Party has promised

:46:48.:46:49.

to increase NHS spending by a minimum of ?8 billion in real

:46:50.:46:55.

terms over the next five years. Here in Crawley we are already

:46:56.:46:59.

seeing the results of the increased We've seen emergency services

:47:00.:47:03.

returning to Crawley Hospital, an out of hours service available

:47:04.:47:08.

24/7. Of course we have to recognise

:47:09.:47:09.

a few in the south-east Of course we have to recognise

:47:10.:47:14.

here in the south-east that is a growing population,

:47:15.:47:16.

growing need, elderly population and that is why the extra investment

:47:17.:47:20.

announced by Theresa May into the NHS is going

:47:21.:47:23.

to be very necessary. The Greens pulled out of the contest

:47:24.:47:25.

in Brighton Kemptown, The party has not published

:47:26.:47:27.

its manifesto yet, but has pledged to rollback privatisation and close

:47:28.:47:32.

the NHS spending gap. That's a promise all

:47:33.:47:34.

the main parties have made. Here's a full list of all

:47:35.:47:37.

the candidates standing We did not hear from Ukip there but

:47:38.:47:53.

Stephen Priestley is in the studio. He gave us a specific example but in

:47:54.:47:58.

general terms what is Ukip solution to the problems facing the NHS? It

:47:59.:48:06.

is important we make things far better was greater levels of

:48:07.:48:14.

investment and focus on training to ensure we are bringing back the

:48:15.:48:22.

nurse programme, we want to try to simplify the processes that some of

:48:23.:48:25.

the health professionals have to go through today have more time with

:48:26.:48:31.

patients, reduce bureaucracy as well. These are some key areas.

:48:32.:48:38.

We have not had your manifesto yet. Caroline Ansell, your manifesto you

:48:39.:48:44.

let 100 -- 140,000 EU nationals in let 100 -- 140,000 EU nationals in

:48:45.:48:50.

the NHS stay and carry on. That -- is that go far enough to reassure

:48:51.:48:55.

them because we need them. We do need them and we have made that a

:48:56.:48:59.

top priority. Those negotiations will start 11 days after the

:49:00.:49:06.

election. What I was struck by their in the felled by a man who said we

:49:07.:49:12.

need to stop focusing on Brexit, but Brexit will just determine how able

:49:13.:49:17.

we are to provide the necessarily funding for the NHS and I am pleased

:49:18.:49:21.

we have committed to increased funding.

:49:22.:49:22.

But other parties like Peter's and But other parties like Peter's and

:49:23.:49:26.

guarantee the rights of those a new national. It is part of the

:49:27.:49:33.

EU nationals. It is important to EU nationals. It is important to

:49:34.:49:37.

rise up eight new generation of nurses, doctors and medical

:49:38.:49:42.

professionals. -- create a new generation of nurses. Peter, you are

:49:43.:49:46.

offering more money than the offering more money than the

:49:47.:49:50.

Conservatives but according to the independent health foundation there

:49:51.:49:55.

will still be a ?7 black hole in the NHS by 2021. It is just not enough.

:49:56.:50:06.

-- ?7 billion black hole. Even if you fund it... There are other

:50:07.:50:13.

things to be done, in particular the relationship between the NHS and

:50:14.:50:17.

adult social care and integrating both of them better. At the moment

:50:18.:50:22.

adult social care has been cut back which put additional burdens on the

:50:23.:50:27.

NHS and they both have to be brought together more closely. Bringing

:50:28.:50:31.

those too much more closely together will make the whole thing a run more

:50:32.:50:36.

efficiently for all the people in hospitals and requiring care at

:50:37.:50:40.

home. I could give one example from local authorities about how does not

:50:41.:50:45.

work at the moment but that would help lot too.

:50:46.:50:50.

Health is a huge subject, and I'm well aware we've barely

:50:51.:50:52.

And what type of schools should we create over the next five years?

:50:53.:51:00.

We're going to hear again from Bhavani, she's in Tonbridge

:51:01.:51:02.

Well, where better to find schoolchildren and burdens

:51:03.:51:05.

on a sunny Sunday morning but at a football match?

:51:06.:51:09.

I am at a tournament in Tunbridge to talk about education.

:51:10.:51:12.

Some might say it has been used as a political football.

:51:13.:51:14.

This tournament is taking place in Kent which has the highest number

:51:15.:51:17.

The blue and purple political teams want to see more grammars,

:51:18.:51:22.

while Labour, Lib Dems and the Greens are against

:51:23.:51:24.

To kick off this debate we have joining us a head teacher,

:51:25.:51:31.

You are a headteacher of a wide ability school and you represent

:51:32.:51:40.

What is your opinion on the offer and grammer schools from parties?

:51:41.:51:47.

I think the discussion about grammar schools within this debate

:51:48.:51:49.

is a bit of a distraction from the really key issues

:51:50.:51:52.

I think grammar skills and do a great job for the children

:51:53.:51:56.

they serve, but so do nonselective schools and comprehensive schools

:51:57.:51:58.

across the country and I think if we are going to have a really

:51:59.:52:02.

great education system in the UK it is about every school

:52:03.:52:04.

being great, every child having the opportunity to succeed

:52:05.:52:08.

and move and to achieve what they want to achieve.

:52:09.:52:15.

And that will only happen when we get all our schools properly funded

:52:16.:52:18.

This is your view despite being the former head of a grammar school

:52:19.:52:22.

Yeah, I have been the head of a grammar school and we did

:52:23.:52:27.

a great job for our children as well and I believe we are doing

:52:28.:52:30.

a good job for the school I am currently head of.

:52:31.:52:33.

But I think it goes beyond that, it is that every

:52:34.:52:35.

You have a child at a grammar school here in Kent and you received

:52:36.:52:43.

I'm very much supportive of what they do.

:52:44.:52:49.

It gives them a great opportunity, the children,

:52:50.:52:51.

But, the point Sally made, there are a lot of great schools out

:52:52.:52:55.

there, of whatever standard, lots of great teachers out

:52:56.:52:57.

there and they all need to be supported throughout.

:52:58.:52:59.

But certainly I would be supportive of more grammar schools

:53:00.:53:02.

As I say, to give children the opportunity within the education.

:53:03.:53:06.

Tell me about the type of school you go to and what do

:53:07.:53:13.

you think about the grammar schools education system?

:53:14.:53:15.

I go to a grammar in Tunbridge Wells, a boys grammar.

:53:16.:53:17.

And I think the grammar system is a great way to succeed

:53:18.:53:20.

You would like to see more grammar schools as well.

:53:21.:53:25.

We are now going to talk about funding.

:53:26.:53:28.

Money that the schools get is another contentious issue

:53:29.:53:31.

here in the south-east, and many patents and Conservative

:53:32.:53:33.

MPs in the region have been campaigning against the national

:53:34.:53:37.

funding formula introduced in December, and claim many schools

:53:38.:53:39.

Well, in their manifestos Labour, the Conservatives and the Lib Dems

:53:40.:53:44.

have promised more money for the schools budget so I am just

:53:45.:53:46.

Are you optimistic about the future as a result

:53:47.:53:51.

Really pleased to hear the parties are talking about putting more

:53:52.:53:58.

I think we must not lose sight of the National Fair Funding Formula

:53:59.:54:03.

because schools have not been fairly funded for many years.

:54:04.:54:06.

There has been a huge disparity in the amount of money per child

:54:07.:54:09.

that schools received across the country.

:54:10.:54:10.

Kent, under the National funding formula would actually

:54:11.:54:12.

be an overall gainer, but there will be schools will lose,

:54:13.:54:16.

and I think we need to see more money in the pot,

:54:17.:54:19.

we need to see a levelling, but we need to see a levelling up,

:54:20.:54:22.

Thank you to all of you for joining us today.

:54:23.:54:26.

Now time to hand back to the studio to you, Natalie.

:54:27.:54:34.

Caroline Ansell, you worked as a teacher, we heard from the head

:54:35.:54:40.

teacher who said grammar schools are a that the -- massive distraction.

:54:41.:54:47.

Now selective education is in your manifesto are you convinced? I will

:54:48.:54:53.

take more convincing. It will be subject to close scrutiny and debate

:54:54.:54:57.

going into the next Parliament should we be the party of

:54:58.:55:00.

Government. It is popular with parents and

:55:01.:55:04.

pupils. It seemed to be popular with the parent 's grammar school

:55:05.:55:09.

children but that is a much bigger picture here for us to look at and

:55:10.:55:15.

that is every child and excellence for every school.

:55:16.:55:19.

Peter, along with the Lib Dems and Green 's Labour pause grammar

:55:20.:55:23.

schools and you call them the Conservative vanity project. If you

:55:24.:55:28.

got into school the logical thing to do would be get rid of existing

:55:29.:55:35.

ones, wouldn't it? I would prefer a universal comprehensive education

:55:36.:55:38.

system grammar school simply do not work, low research has a short

:55:39.:55:44.

overall in the areas, they have better results, this has not been

:55:45.:55:49.

shown. It is a vanity project and would be damaging to education to

:55:50.:55:53.

create more of them. For those parents with children and grammar

:55:54.:55:59.

skills they do like them but for the other 80% they do not.

:56:00.:56:03.

What about Conservative plans to change emissions policy so

:56:04.:56:06.

middle-class families do not have an advantage when it comes to getting a

:56:07.:56:13.

place in schools -- admissions policy. I still think you need is a

:56:14.:56:17.

much better comprehensively planned education system, the way we move

:56:18.:56:24.

towards academies and free schools and now grammar schools are just

:56:25.:56:29.

means you are losing control of education and that needs to be

:56:30.:56:32.

brought back again. I think that is innovation. Stephen

:56:33.:56:39.

Priestley, you want a grammar school in every town and your leader says

:56:40.:56:43.

he specifically wants to help working-class children. How would

:56:44.:56:49.

you do that? Attempts in Kent are not good work. If I could talk about

:56:50.:56:54.

the far greater emphasis needed on vocational training for 14 and 15

:56:55.:56:59.

Google especially. Not everyone academically minded and that needs

:57:00.:57:06.

to be a broad spectrum of talent including musical and artistic

:57:07.:57:13.

talent. In a sentence, Ukip wants to equip the future generations with

:57:14.:57:18.

the vocational skills that are needed for carpentry, bricklaying

:57:19.:57:21.

and all of these vital things we reduce the dependency on a very

:57:22.:57:27.

skilled workforce coming in from abroad. Caroline, about funding, the

:57:28.:57:35.

Government plans to change the formula, that is on hold because of

:57:36.:57:42.

the election. I got a letter from a headteacher saying school funding is

:57:43.:57:47.

under severe threat. Will that stop now you have announced Europe policy

:57:48.:57:54.

to not let any school loos under this formula -- announced Europe

:57:55.:57:58.

policy. That extra funding is so very welcome at what I hope the

:57:59.:58:03.

promotion of that new funding will still come through because a piece

:58:04.:58:07.

for we are severely disadvantaged by that formula. -- in Eastbourne.

:58:08.:58:14.

There's just time for some of the other news you may have

:58:15.:58:17.

missed in Sixty Seconds with Yetunde Yusuf.

:58:18.:58:18.

The controversial landlord who banned what he called coloured

:58:19.:58:21.

peoples from letting his properties, claiming

:58:22.:58:22.

The equality and human rights commission has

:58:23.:58:27.

applied for an injunction against Fergus Wilson, for his lettings

:58:28.:58:30.

A reasonable man will say to me this is not racist,

:58:31.:58:38.

And I think the Equalities Commission has not

:58:39.:58:41.

Two councils in Kent have taken litter

:58:42.:58:51.

wardens off the streets after a BBC investigation found that they were

:58:52.:58:55.

being paid a bigger bonuses the more tickets they handed out.

:58:56.:58:58.

Maidstone Borough Council were first and

:58:59.:58:59.

then Ashford Borough Council said wardens working

:59:00.:59:01.

And commuters using Southern rail are facing more

:59:02.:59:05.

disruption this summer after the train drivers union Aslef

:59:06.:59:07.

announced an overtime ban from the end of May.

:59:08.:59:09.

The RMT union say they will also be striking.

:59:10.:59:11.

It comes after talks over driver on the trains broke down.

:59:12.:59:14.

Southern say they are dismayed by the decision.

:59:15.:59:23.

Don't forget this programme is part of a series of shows

:59:24.:59:26.

the Conservatives, Labour and UKIP in the studio.

:59:27.:59:30.

We'll be hearing from all the major parties standing candidates

:59:31.:59:32.

in the south-east on a range of issues leading up to June 8th.

:59:33.:59:36.

So, for now, lets thank our guests today - Caroline Ansell,

:59:37.:59:39.

cancelled. And rent to own is still our policy. Thank you very much, Tom

:59:40.:59:40.

Brake. Andrew, back to you. So, two and half weeks

:59:41.:59:47.

to go till polling day, let's take stock of the campaign

:59:48.:59:50.

so far and look ahead Sam, Isabel and Steve

:59:51.:59:52.

are with me again. Sam, Mrs May had made a great thing

:59:53.:00:06.

about the just about managing. Not the poorest of the poor, but not

:00:07.:00:10.

really affluent people, who are maybe OK but it's a bit of a

:00:11.:00:17.

struggle. What is in the manifesto for them? There is something about

:00:18.:00:21.

the high profile items in the manifesto. She said she wants to

:00:22.:00:25.

help those just above the poorest level. But if you look at things

:00:26.:00:30.

like the winter fuel allowance, which is going to be given only to

:00:31.:00:35.

the poorest. If you look at free school meals for infants, those for

:00:36.:00:40.

the poorest are going to be kept, but the rest will go. The social

:00:41.:00:45.

care plan, those who are renting or in properties worth up to ?90,000,

:00:46.:00:51.

they are going to be treated, but those in properties worth above

:00:52.:00:58.

that, 250,000, for example, will have to pay. Which leads to the

:00:59.:01:03.

question - what is being done for the just about managings? There is

:01:04.:01:08.

something, the personal allowance that David Cameron promised in 2015,

:01:09.:01:12.

that they are not making a big deal of that, because they cannot say by

:01:13.:01:19.

how much. So you are looking in tax rises on the just about managings.

:01:20.:01:26.

Where will the tax rises come from. We do not know, that there is the 40

:01:27.:01:35.

million pounds gap for the Tories to reach what they are pledging in

:01:36.:01:38.

their manifesto. We do not know how that is going to be made up, more

:01:39.:01:45.

tax, or more borrowing? So that is why the questions of the

:01:46.:01:48.

implications of removing the tax lock are so potentially difficult

:01:49.:01:53.

for Tory MPs. The Labour manifesto gives figures for the cost of

:01:54.:01:56.

certain policies and where the revenue will come from. You can

:01:57.:02:00.

argue about the figures, but at least we have the figures. The Tory

:02:01.:02:05.

manifesto is opaque on these matters. That applies to both the

:02:06.:02:10.

manifestos. Looking at the Labour manifesto on the way here this

:02:11.:02:14.

morning, when you look at the section on care for the elderly,

:02:15.:02:18.

they simply say, there are various ways in which the money for this can

:02:19.:02:23.

be raised. They are specific on other things. They are, and we heard

:02:24.:02:29.

John McDonnell this morning being very on that, and saying there is

:02:30.:02:36.

not a single ? in Tory manifesto. I have only got to page 66. It is

:02:37.:02:43.

quite broad brush and they are very open to challenge. For example, on

:02:44.:02:48.

the detail of a number of their flagship things. There is no detail

:02:49.:02:53.

on their immigration policy. They reiterate the ambition, but not how

:02:54.:02:58.

they are going to do that, without a massive increase in resource for

:02:59.:03:04.

Borders officials. We are at a time where average wages are lagging

:03:05.:03:10.

behind prices. And in work benefits remain frozen. I would have thought

:03:11.:03:14.

that the just-about-managings are people who are in work but they need

:03:15.:03:20.

some in work benefits to make life tolerable and be able to pay bills.

:03:21.:03:26.

Doesn't she has to do more for them? Maybe, but this whole manifesto was

:03:27.:03:34.

her inner circle saying, right, this is our chance to express our... It

:03:35.:03:40.

partly reads like a sort of philosophical essay at times. About

:03:41.:03:45.

the challenges, individualism against collectivism. Some of it

:03:46.:03:49.

reads quite well and is quite interesting, but in terms of its

:03:50.:03:55.

detail, Labour would never get away with it. They wouldn't be allowed to

:03:56.:03:59.

be so vague about where taxes are going to rise. We know there are

:04:00.:04:04.

going to be tax rises after the election, but we don't know where

:04:05.:04:09.

they will be. 100%, there will be tax rises. We know that they wanted

:04:10.:04:16.

a tax rise in the last budget, but they couldn't get it through because

:04:17.:04:22.

of the 2015 manifesto. Labour do offer a lot more detail. People

:04:23.:04:27.

could disagree with it, but there is a lot more detail. More to get your

:04:28.:04:33.

teeth into. About capital gains tax and the rises for better owners and

:04:34.:04:38.

so on. The SNP manifesto comes out this week, and the Greens and Sinn

:04:39.:04:45.

Fein. We think Ukip as well. There are more manifestos to come. The Lib

:04:46.:04:48.

Dems have already brought theirs out. Isn't the Liberal Democrat

:04:49.:04:55.

campaign in trouble? It doesn't seem to be doing particular the well in

:04:56.:05:01.

the polls, or at the local elections a few weeks ago. The Liberal

:05:02.:05:04.

Democrats are trying to fish in quite a small pool for votes. They

:05:05.:05:10.

are looking to get votes from those remainers who want to reverse the

:05:11.:05:15.

result, in effect. Tim Farron is promising a second referendum on the

:05:16.:05:20.

deal at the end of the negotiation process. And that is a hard sell. So

:05:21.:05:28.

those voting for remain on June 23 are not low hanging fruit by any

:05:29.:05:34.

means? Polls suggesting that half of those want to reverse the result, so

:05:35.:05:39.

that is a feeling of about 20% on the Lib Dems, and they are getting

:05:40.:05:43.

slightly less than half at the moment, but there are not a huge

:05:44.:05:48.

amount of votes for them to get on that strategy. It doesn't feel like

:05:49.:05:56.

Tim Farron and the Lib Dems have promised enough. They are making a

:05:57.:06:01.

very serious case on cannabis use in a nightclub, but the optics of what

:06:02.:06:05.

they are discussing doesn't make them look like an anchor in a future

:06:06.:06:08.

coalition government that they would need to be. I wonder if we are

:06:09.:06:14.

seeing the re-emergence of the 2-party system? And it is not the

:06:15.:06:18.

same two parties. In Scotland, the dynamics of this election seemed to

:06:19.:06:22.

be the Nationalists against the Conservatives. In England, if you

:06:23.:06:24.

look at what has happened to be Ukip vote, and what Sam was saying about

:06:25.:06:42.

the Lib Dems are struggling a bit to get some traction, it is

:06:43.:06:43.

overwhelmingly Labour and the Conservatives. A different 2-party

:06:44.:06:45.

system from Scotland, but a 2-party system. There are a number of

:06:46.:06:48.

different election is going on in parallel. In Scotland it is about

:06:49.:06:53.

whether you are unionist or not. Here, we have the collapse of the

:06:54.:06:57.

Ukip vote, which looks as though it is being redistributed in the

:06:58.:07:03.

Tories' favour. This is a unique election, and will not necessarily

:07:04.:07:09.

set the trend for elections to come. In the Tory manifesto, I spotted the

:07:10.:07:12.

fact that the fixed term Parliament act is going to be scrapped. That

:07:13.:07:21.

got almost no coverage! It turned out to be academic anyway, that it

:07:22.:07:25.

tells you something about how Theresa May is feeling, and she

:07:26.:07:29.

wants the control to call an election whenever it suits her.

:07:30.:07:34.

Re-emergence of the 2-party system, for this election or beyond? For

:07:35.:07:43.

this election, yes, but it shows the sort of robust strength of parties

:07:44.:07:47.

and their fragility. In other words, the Lib Dems haven't really

:07:48.:07:52.

recovered from the losses in the last general election, and are

:07:53.:07:56.

therefore not really seen as a robust vehicle to deliver Remain. If

:07:57.:08:00.

they were, they might be doing better. The Labour Party hasn't

:08:01.:08:05.

recovered in Scotland, and yet, if you look at the basic divide in

:08:06.:08:10.

England and Scotland and you see two parties battling it out, it is very,

:08:11.:08:15.

very hard for the smaller parties to break through and last. Many appear

:08:16.:08:20.

briefly on the political stage and then disappear again. The election

:08:21.:08:26.

had the ostensible goal of Brexit, but we haven't heard much about it

:08:27.:08:31.

in the campaign. Perhaps the Tories want to get back onto that. David

:08:32.:08:38.

Davis sounding quite tough this morning, the Brexit minister, saying

:08:39.:08:41.

there is no chance we will talk about 100 billion. And we have to

:08:42.:08:45.

have power in the negotiations on the free trade deal or what ever it

:08:46.:08:51.

is. I think they are keen to get the subject of the manifesto at this

:08:52.:08:55.

point, because it has not started too well. There is an irony that

:08:56.:09:00.

Theresa May ostensibly called the election because she needed a

:09:01.:09:05.

stronger hand in the Brexit negotiations, and there was an

:09:06.:09:08.

opportunity for the Lib Dems, with their unique offer of being the

:09:09.:09:11.

party that is absolutely against the outcome of the referendum, and

:09:12.:09:17.

offering another chance. There hasn't been much airtime on that

:09:18.:09:22.

particular pledge, because instead, this election has segued into being

:09:23.:09:28.

all about leadership. Theresa May's leadership, and looking again at the

:09:29.:09:32.

Tory manifesto, I was struck that she was saying that this is my plan

:09:33.:09:40.

for the future, not ABBA plan. Even when talking about social care, he

:09:41.:09:46.

manages to work in a bit about Theresa May and Brexit. And Boris

:09:47.:09:50.

Johnson this morning, an interview he gave on another political

:09:51.:09:55.

programme this morning, it was extraordinarily sycophantic for him.

:09:56.:09:59.

Isn't Theresa May wonderful. There is a man trying to secure his job in

:10:00.:10:06.

the Foreign Office! Will he succeed? I think she will leave him. Better

:10:07.:10:12.

in the tent than out. What did you make of David Davis' remarks? He was

:10:13.:10:18.

basically saying, we will walk away from the negotiating table if the

:10:19.:10:24.

Europeans slam a bill for 100 billion euros. The point is that the

:10:25.:10:32.

Europeans will not slam a bill for 100 billion euros on the negotiating

:10:33.:10:36.

table. That is the gross figure. There are all sorts of things that

:10:37.:10:41.

need to be taken into account. I imagine they will ask for something

:10:42.:10:46.

around the 50 or ?60 billion mark. It looks that they are trying to

:10:47.:10:53.

make it look like a concession when they do make their demands in order

:10:54.:10:56.

to soften the ground for what is going to happen just two weeks after

:10:57.:11:01.

general election day. He makes a reasonable point about having

:11:02.:11:05.

parallel talks. What they want to do straightaway is deal with the bill,

:11:06.:11:09.

Northern Ireland and citizens rights. All of those things are very

:11:10.:11:14.

complicated and interlinked issues, which cannot be dealt with in

:11:15.:11:17.

isolation. I wouldn't be surprised if we ended up with parallel talks,

:11:18.:11:23.

just to work out where we are going with Northern Ireland and the

:11:24.:11:29.

border. Steve, you can't work out what the Northern Ireland border

:11:30.:11:33.

will be, and EU citizens' writes here, until you work out what our

:11:34.:11:38.

relationship with the EU in the future will be. Indeed. The British

:11:39.:11:43.

government is under pressure to deal quickly with the border issue in

:11:44.:11:47.

Ireland, but feel they can't do so because when you have a tariff free

:11:48.:11:52.

arrangement outcome, or an arrangement that is much more

:11:53.:11:55.

protectionist, and that will determine partly the nature of the

:11:56.:12:00.

border. You cannot have a quick agreement on that front without

:12:01.:12:03.

knowing the rest of the deal. I think the negotiation will be

:12:04.:12:07.

complex. I am certain they want a deal rather than none, because this

:12:08.:12:12.

is no deal thing is part of the negotiation at this early stage.

:12:13.:12:18.

Sounding tough in the general election campaign also works

:12:19.:12:21.

electorally. But after the election, it will be a tough negotiation,

:12:22.:12:29.

beginning with this cost of Brexit. My understanding is that the

:12:30.:12:32.

government feels it's got to make the Europeans think they will not do

:12:33.:12:37.

a deal in order to get a deal. They don't want no deal. Absolutely not.

:12:38.:12:42.

And I'm sure it plays into the election. I'm sure the rhetoric will

:12:43.:12:45.

change when the election is over. That's all for today,

:12:46.:12:50.

thank you to all my guests. The Daily Politics will be

:12:51.:12:52.

back on BBC Two at 12.00 And tomorrow evening I will be

:12:53.:12:55.

starting my series of interviews with the party leaders -

:12:56.:12:59.

first up is the Prime Minister, Theresa May,

:13:00.:13:01.

that's at 7pm on BBC One. And I'll be back here at the same

:13:02.:13:03.

time on BBC One next Sunday. Remember - if it's Sunday,

:13:04.:13:06.

it's the Sunday Politics. We've made great strides

:13:07.:13:55.

tackling HIV. Imagine if we could

:13:56.:13:57.

create a movement

:13:58.:14:00.

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