14/05/2017 Sunday Politics South East


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14/05/2017

Andrew Neil and Julia George are joined by shadow business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey, housing minister Brandon Lewis and American political pollster Frank Luntz.


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:40.

Theresa May unveils plans to build many more affordable homes

:00:41.:00:43.

in England, but with no price tag, timetable or building targets -

:00:44.:00:46.

Labour takes aim at the City with what it calls a Robin Hood Tax

:00:47.:00:53.

to fund public services, but will traders just

:00:54.:00:55.

Don't look at the polls - Jeremy Corbyn, at least,

:00:56.:00:59.

insists he can win this election - so which way will

:01:00.:01:02.

As the General Election approaches, group in Leeds.

:01:03.:01:08.

we explore which party has the best ideas

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to sort out problems on our roads and railways.

:01:11.:01:15.

and here, what the parties are saying about tackling the air

:01:16.:01:17.

pollution problem in London. And with me, our own scientifically

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selected focus group of political pundits -

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they're not so much undecided as clueless -

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Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott They'll be tweeting

:01:32.:01:33.

throughout the programme. So, we've got two new

:01:34.:01:40.

policies this morning. Labour say they will introduce

:01:41.:01:42.

a financial transaction tax if they win the general election

:01:43.:01:44.

and what they're calling "the biggest crackdown on tax

:01:45.:01:47.

avoidance in the country's history". The Conservatives say they'll work

:01:48.:01:49.

with local authorities in England to build council houses

:01:50.:01:51.

with the right to buy. Theresa May says the policy

:01:52.:01:54.

"will help thousands of people get on the first rung

:01:55.:01:56.

of the housing ladder". Steve, what do you make of them? I

:01:57.:02:08.

have been conditioned after doing tax and spend debates in

:02:09.:02:13.

pre-election periods for many decades to treat policy is not as

:02:14.:02:17.

literal but as arguments. In other words if you look back to 2015 the

:02:18.:02:21.

Tory plan to wipe out the deficit was never going to happen and yet it

:02:22.:02:26.

framed and large event. In that sense the Robin Hood tax is a

:02:27.:02:30.

sensible move for Labour to make at this point because it is part of a

:02:31.:02:35.

narrative of reconfiguring taxation to be fair. Treating it as an

:02:36.:02:38.

argument rather than something that would happen in day one of Labour

:02:39.:02:45.

government is sensible. In terms of building houses Theresa May said

:02:46.:02:48.

right from the beginning when she was in Number Ten that there is a

:02:49.:02:51.

housing deficit in this country rather than the economic deficit

:02:52.:02:55.

George Osborne was focusing on, and this is an example of trying to get

:02:56.:03:00.

house-building going. It seems entirely sensible, not sure how it

:03:01.:03:04.

works with right to buy but again as framing of a 90 minute it makes

:03:05.:03:09.

sense. I disagree with Steve on one front which is how sensible Theresa

:03:10.:03:17.

May's policy is on the housing announcement. I think more broadly

:03:18.:03:21.

these two announcements have something in common which is that

:03:22.:03:24.

over the next 24 hours both will probably unravel in different ways.

:03:25.:03:31.

Ye of little faith! The Mayor of London has already said he doesn't

:03:32.:03:35.

agree with this, and when people see the actual impact of what looks like

:03:36.:03:41.

a populist tax will very potentially affect people's pensions, it might

:03:42.:03:46.

become a lot less popular. On the Tory housing plans, I think it is

:03:47.:03:50.

difficult to imagine how they are going to implement this huge, what

:03:51.:03:55.

looks like a huge land and property grab. Through compulsory purchase

:03:56.:04:00.

orders, which are not a simple instrument. They say they will

:04:01.:04:04.

change the law but really the idea of paying people below the market

:04:05.:04:08.

value for their assets is not something I can see sitting easily

:04:09.:04:13.

with Tory backbenchers or the Tories in the House of Lords. Tom. Both

:04:14.:04:20.

would appear superficially to be appealing to traditional left and

:04:21.:04:24.

traditional right bases. What is more Tory than right to buy, then

:04:25.:04:31.

councils sell on these houses, and Labour slapping a massive tax on the

:04:32.:04:38.

city. The Tories' plan, I would say look a bit deeper and all of the

:04:39.:04:41.

Tory narrative from the last six years which hasn't worked well is

:04:42.:04:46.

talking about the private sector increasing supply in the market. Now

:04:47.:04:50.

Mrs May is talking about the role for the state after all so this is

:04:51.:04:58.

the shift creeping in. On the Labour transaction tax, one of the most

:04:59.:05:02.

interesting things I heard in days was from Paul Mason, former BBC

:05:03.:05:09.

correspondent, now a cog in Easter extreme. On Newsnight he said don't

:05:10.:05:12.

worry about whether the Labour manifesto will add up, I'm promising

:05:13.:05:17.

it will, the bigger Tory attack line should be what on earth will be the

:05:18.:05:24.

macroeconomic effect of taking so much tax out of the system. Very

:05:25.:05:29.

well, we shall see. At least we have some policies to talk about.

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Now, on Tuesday Labour will launch its manifesto.

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But we've already got a pretty good idea of what's in it -

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that's because most of its contents were leaked to the media

:05:38.:05:39.

Labour has a variety of spending pledges including an extra

:05:40.:05:48.

?6 billion a year for the NHS, an additional ?8 billion for social

:05:49.:05:51.

care over the lifetime of the next parliament,

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as well as a ?250 billion in infrastructure over

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The party will support the renewal of the Trident submarine system,

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although any Prime Minister should be extremely cautious

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about its use, and the party will hold a strategic defence

:06:05.:06:07.

and security review immediately after the election.

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In terms of immigration, Labour will seek "reasonable

:06:11.:06:12.

management of migration", but it will not make "false

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Elsewhere, university tuition fees will be abolished,

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and the public sector pay cap, which limits pay rises

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for public sector workers to 1%, will be scrapped.

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The party also aims to renationalise the railways, the Royal Mail

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and the National Grid, as well as creating at least one

:06:31.:06:37.

A senior Labour backbencher described it to the Sunday Politics

:06:38.:06:42.

as a manifesto for a leadership who don't "give a toss

:06:43.:06:45.

about the wider public", and several other Labour candidates

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told us they thought it had been deliberately

:06:48.:06:49.

leaked by the leadership, with one suggesting

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the leak was intended to "bounce the National Executive"

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And we're joined now from Salford by the Shadow Business Secretary,

:06:56.:06:58.

Welcome to the programme. The draft manifesto proposed to renationalise

:06:59.:07:07.

the number of industry. You will wait for the franchises to run out

:07:08.:07:11.

rather than buy them out at the moment so can you confirm the

:07:12.:07:16.

railways will not be wholly nationalised until 2030, after three

:07:17.:07:20.

Labour governments, and Jeremy Corbyn will be 80? I'm not going to

:07:21.:07:26.

comment on leaks, you will just have to be patient and wait to see what

:07:27.:07:33.

is in our manifesto. But you have already announced you will

:07:34.:07:37.

nationalise the railways, so tell me about it. We have discussed taking

:07:38.:07:42.

the franchises into public ownership as they expire, however the detail

:07:43.:07:46.

will be set out in the manifesto so I'm not prepared to go into detail

:07:47.:07:51.

until that policy is formally laid out on Tuesday. That doesn't sound

:07:52.:07:55.

very hopeful but let's carry on. You will also nationalise the National

:07:56.:08:02.

Grid, it has a market capitalisation of ?40 billion, why do you want to

:08:03.:08:07.

nationalise that? Again, I'm not going to speculate on leaks, you

:08:08.:08:12.

will just have to be patient. But you said you will nationalise the

:08:13.:08:18.

National Grid so tell's Y. The leaks have suggested but you will just

:08:19.:08:22.

have to wait and see what the final manifesto states on that one. So is

:08:23.:08:26.

it a waste of time me asking you how you will pay for something that

:08:27.:08:31.

costs 40 billion? Be patient, just couple of days to go, but what I

:08:32.:08:37.

would say is there is growing pressure from the public to reform

:08:38.:08:41.

the utilities sector. The Competition and Markets Authority

:08:42.:08:44.

stated in 2015 that bill payers were paying over till debt -- ?2 billion

:08:45.:08:50.

in excess of what they should be paying so there is a clear need for

:08:51.:08:56.

reform. The bills we get are from the energy companies, you are not

:08:57.:08:59.

going to nationalise them, you are going to nationalise the

:09:00.:09:03.

distribution company and I wondered what is the case for nationalising

:09:04.:09:08.

the distribution company? As I said, our full plans will be set out on

:09:09.:09:13.

Tuesday. In relation to the big six energy companies, we know in recent

:09:14.:09:16.

years they have been overcharging customers... There's no point in

:09:17.:09:24.

answering questions I am not asking. I am asking what is the case for

:09:25.:09:30.

nationalising the National Grid? There is a case for reforming the

:09:31.:09:33.

energy sector as a whole and that looks at the activities of the big

:09:34.:09:37.

six companies and it will look at other aspects too. You will have to

:09:38.:09:43.

be patient and wait until Tuesday. What about the Royal Mail? Again,

:09:44.:09:49.

you will have to wait until Tuesday. Why can't you just be honest with

:09:50.:09:54.

the British voter? We know you are going to do this and you have a duty

:09:55.:10:01.

to explain. I'm not even arguing whether it is right or wrong. The

:10:02.:10:07.

Royal Mail was sold off and we know it was sold under value and British

:10:08.:10:11.

taxpayers have a reason to feel aggrieved about that. There is a

:10:12.:10:15.

long-term strategy that would ensure the Royal Mail was classified as a

:10:16.:10:18.

key piece of infrastructure but the details of that will be set out in

:10:19.:10:24.

our manifesto because we want to ensure businesses and households

:10:25.:10:26.

ensure the best quality of service when it comes to their postal

:10:27.:10:32.

providers. You plan to borrow an extra 25 billion per year, John

:10:33.:10:37.

McDonnell has already announced this, on public investment, on top

:10:38.:10:41.

of the around 50 billion already being planned for investment. You

:10:42.:10:46.

will borrow it all so that means, if you can confirm, that many years

:10:47.:10:54.

after the crash by 2021, Labour government would still be borrowing

:10:55.:11:01.

75 billion a year. Is that correct? We have set out ?250 billion of

:11:02.:11:07.

capital investment, and ?250 billion for a national investment bank. Our

:11:08.:11:11.

financial and fiscal rules dictate we will leave the Government in a

:11:12.:11:15.

state of less debt than we found it at the start of the parliament so we

:11:16.:11:18.

won't increase the national debt at the end of our Parliamentary term.

:11:19.:11:25.

How can you do that if by 2021 you will still be borrowing around 75

:11:26.:11:29.

billion a year, which is more than we borrow at the moment? The 500

:11:30.:11:35.

billion figure is set out over a period of ten years, it's a figure

:11:36.:11:40.

that has been suggested by Peter Helm from Oxford University as a

:11:41.:11:43.

figure that is necessary to bring us in line with other industrial

:11:44.:11:47.

competitors. Similar figures have been suggested by groups such as the

:11:48.:11:55.

CBI. By the way I have not included all 500 billion, just the 250

:11:56.:11:59.

billion on public spending, not the extra money. You talk about the

:12:00.:12:04.

fiscal rules. The draft manifesto said you will leave debt as a

:12:05.:12:09.

proportion of trend GDP law at the end of each parliament, you have

:12:10.:12:16.

just said a version of that. What is trend GDP? In clear terms we will

:12:17.:12:20.

ensure the debt we acquire will be reduced by the end of the

:12:21.:12:24.

parliament. We won't leave the Government finances in a worse state

:12:25.:12:31.

than we found them. OK, but what is trend GDP? Our rule is we will

:12:32.:12:35.

ensure public sector net debt is less than we found it when we came

:12:36.:12:40.

to power in Government on June the 8th. But that is not what your draft

:12:41.:12:48.

manifesto says. I'm not going to comment on leaks, you are just going

:12:49.:12:51.

to have to wait until Tuesday to look at the fine detail and perhaps

:12:52.:12:56.

we will have another chat then. You have published your plans for

:12:57.:13:00.

corporation tax and you will increase it by a third and your

:13:01.:13:04.

predictions assumed that will get an extra 20 billion a year by the end

:13:05.:13:09.

of the parliament. But that assumes the companies don't change their

:13:10.:13:13.

behaviour, that they move money around, they leave the country or

:13:14.:13:18.

they generate smaller profits. Is that realistic? You are right to

:13:19.:13:23.

make that point and you will see when we set out our policies and

:13:24.:13:27.

costings in the manifesto that we haven't spent all of the tax take.

:13:28.:13:33.

We have allowed for different differentials and potential changes

:13:34.:13:35.

in market activity because that would be approved and direction to

:13:36.:13:40.

take. But corporation tax is allowed to be cut in France and the United

:13:41.:13:48.

States, it's only 12.5% in Dublin. Many companies based in Britain are

:13:49.:13:51.

already wondering whether they should relocate because of Brexit,

:13:52.:13:56.

if you increase this tax by a third couldn't that clinch it for a number

:13:57.:14:01.

of them? No, we will still be one of the lowest corporation tax rate in

:14:02.:14:06.

the G7. Let's look at what's important for business. Cutting

:14:07.:14:11.

corporation tax in itself doesn't improve productivity, or business

:14:12.:14:15.

investment and there's no suggestion cutting corporation tax in recent

:14:16.:14:18.

years has achieved that. Businesses need an investment in tools in

:14:19.:14:24.

things they need to thrive and prosper, they also need to reduce

:14:25.:14:29.

the burden at the lower end of the tax scale, before we get to the

:14:30.:14:34.

Prophet stage. One key example is business rates. We have made the

:14:35.:14:41.

proposal to government to in -- exclude machinery so businesses can

:14:42.:14:44.

invest and grow operations in the future but the Government refused.

:14:45.:14:51.

Corporation tax has been cut since 2010. When it was 28% it brought in

:14:52.:15:01.

?43 billion a year. Now it is down to 20%, it brought in ?55 billion a

:15:02.:15:07.

year. By cutting it in the last year, it brought in 21% more, so

:15:08.:15:14.

what is the problem? It might have brought in more money, but has it

:15:15.:15:18.

increased business investment in the long term. It is not just about

:15:19.:15:24.

cutting corporation tax, but it is on the ability of businesses to

:15:25.:15:28.

thrive and prosper. Business investment in the UK is below are

:15:29.:15:34.

industrial competitors. Wages are stagnating which doesn't indicate

:15:35.:15:41.

businesses are not doing well. Let me get it right, you are arguing if

:15:42.:15:45.

we increase business tax by a third, that will increase investment? I am

:15:46.:15:52.

not saying that. You just did. Know I didn't, I said reducing business

:15:53.:16:00.

tax isn't enough, you have to invest in the things businesses need to

:16:01.:16:03.

thrive and prosper. You have also got to lessen the burden on

:16:04.:16:15.

business. You have announced a financial transaction tax. Your own

:16:16.:16:20.

labour Mayor of London said he has vowed to fight it. He said I do not

:16:21.:16:25.

want a unilateral tax on business in our city, so why are you proceeding

:16:26.:16:30.

with it? This isn't a new initiative, there is a growing

:16:31.:16:34.

global pressure to make sure we have fairness in the financial sector.

:16:35.:16:38.

Ordinary British people are paying for our banking crisis they didn't

:16:39.:16:44.

cause. Another important point, stamp duty reserve tax was brought

:16:45.:16:49.

in in the 1600 and there have been little reforms. The sector has

:16:50.:16:53.

changed and we have do provide changes to the system for that

:16:54.:16:58.

change. High-frequency trading where we have a state of affairs where a

:16:59.:17:02.

lot of shares are traded on computers within milliseconds. We

:17:03.:17:07.

need a tax system that keeps up with that. What happens if they move the

:17:08.:17:14.

computers to another country? Emily Thornaby said this morning, other

:17:15.:17:19.

countries had already introduced a financial transaction tax, what

:17:20.:17:22.

other countries have done that? There are ten countries looking at

:17:23.:17:30.

introducing a transaction tax. Which ones have done it so far? They will

:17:31.:17:37.

be later announcing a final package, going through the finer detail at

:17:38.:17:41.

the moment. But the European Commission tried to get this done in

:17:42.:17:46.

2011 and it still hasn't happened in any of these countries. But you are

:17:47.:17:51.

going to go ahead unilaterally and risk these businesses, which

:17:52.:17:56.

generate a lot of money, moving to other jurisdictions. There is not a

:17:57.:18:00.

significant risk of that happening. The stamp duty reserve tax is levied

:18:01.:18:11.

at either where the person or company is domiciled or where the

:18:12.:18:16.

instrument is issued rather than worth the transaction takes place.

:18:17.:18:21.

This tax in itself is not enough to make people leave this country in

:18:22.:18:24.

terms of financial services because there is more to keep these

:18:25.:18:29.

businesses here in terms of the investment we are making, the

:18:30.:18:33.

economy that Labour will build, in terms of productivity improvement we

:18:34.:18:37.

will see. Thank you very much, Rebecca Long-Bailey.

:18:38.:18:41.

And listening to that was the Home Office Minister, Brandon Lewis.

:18:42.:18:47.

Over the years, you have got corporation tax by 20%, it is lower

:18:48.:18:53.

than international standards, so why are so many global companies who

:18:54.:19:00.

make money out of Great Britain, still not paying 20%? It is one of

:19:01.:19:05.

the problems with the point Labour were making and Rebecca could not

:19:06.:19:08.

answer, these companies can move around the world. One of the

:19:09.:19:14.

important things is having a low tax economy but these businesses, it

:19:15.:19:18.

encourages them to come at a rate they are prepared to pay. People may

:19:19.:19:23.

say they are right, if they were paying 19, 20% incorporation tax.

:19:24.:19:29.

But they are not. Google runs a multi-million pound corporation and

:19:30.:19:38.

did not pay anywhere near 20%. There are companies that are trading

:19:39.:19:41.

internationally and that is why we have to get this work done with our

:19:42.:19:50.

partners around the world. Has there been an improvement? It is more than

:19:51.:19:54.

they were paying before. Whether it is Google or any other company,

:19:55.:19:58.

alongside them being here, apart from the tax they pay, it is the

:19:59.:20:04.

people they employ. The deal was, if you cut the business tax, the

:20:05.:20:08.

corporation tax on profits, we would get more companies coming here and

:20:09.:20:13.

more companies paying their tax. It seems it doesn't matter how low, a

:20:14.:20:17.

number of companies just pay a derisory amount and you haven't been

:20:18.:20:24.

able to change that. As you outlined, the income taken from the

:20:25.:20:26.

changing corporation tax has gone up. That is from established British

:20:27.:20:34.

companies, not from these international companies. It is

:20:35.:20:37.

because more companies are coming here and paying tax. That is a good

:20:38.:20:41.

thing. There is always more to do and that is why we want to crack

:20:42.:20:47.

down. In the last few weeks in the Finnish Parliament, Labour refused

:20:48.:20:51.

to put to another ?8.7 billion of tax take we could have got by

:20:52.:20:57.

cracking down further. You claim to have made great progress on cracking

:20:58.:21:02.

down on people and companies to pay the tax they should. But the tax gap

:21:03.:21:07.

is the difference between what HMRC takes in and what it should take in.

:21:08.:21:13.

It has barely moved in five years, so where is the progress? He have

:21:14.:21:19.

brought in 150 billion more where we have cracked down on those tax

:21:20.:21:23.

schemes. The gap is still the same as it was five years ago. It's gone

:21:24.:21:33.

from 6.8, 26.5. It has gone down. The Prime Minister and the

:21:34.:21:35.

Chancellor said they want to continue work on to get more money

:21:36.:21:40.

on these companies while still having a competitive rate to

:21:41.:21:46.

encourage these companies. While big business and the wealthy continue to

:21:47.:21:51.

prosper, the Office for Budget Responsibility tell us those on

:21:52.:21:54.

average earnings in this country will be earning less in real terms

:21:55.:22:00.

by 2021 than they did in 2008. How can that be fair? I don't see it

:22:01.:22:06.

that way. I haven't seen the figures you have got. What I can say to you,

:22:07.:22:10.

Andrew, we have made sure the minimum wage has gone up, the actual

:22:11.:22:15.

income tax people pay has gone down. So in their pocket, real terms,

:22:16.:22:25.

people have more money. You are the self-styled party of work. We keep

:22:26.:22:27.

emphasising work. Under your government you can work for 13 years

:22:28.:22:31.

and still not earn any more at the end of it, and you did at the start.

:22:32.:22:37.

Where is the reward for effort in that? I have not seen those figures.

:22:38.:22:43.

There are 2.8 million more people, more jobs in economy than there was.

:22:44.:22:49.

1000 jobs every day and people are working and developing through their

:22:50.:22:53.

careers. This is what I thought was odd in what Rebecca was saying,

:22:54.:22:57.

investing in people is what the apprenticeship levy is about,

:22:58.:23:01.

companies are investing their works force to take more opportunities

:23:02.:23:07.

that there. We are talking about fairness, politicians talk about

:23:08.:23:10.

hard-working people and we know the average earnings are no higher than

:23:11.:23:15.

they were in 2008. We know the pay and bonuses of senior executives

:23:16.:23:20.

have continued to grow and the Institute for Fiscal Studies has

:23:21.:23:23.

shown 3 million of the poorest households will lose an average of

:23:24.:23:29.

?2500 a year in the next Parliament, benefits frozen, further sanctions

:23:30.:23:35.

kick in. 3 million of the poorest losing 2500. Under the Tories, one

:23:36.:23:39.

law for the rich and another for the poor. It is quite wrong. First of

:23:40.:23:45.

all, we have got to be fair to the taxpayer who is funding the welfare

:23:46.:23:50.

and benefit system. Which is why the welfare was right. Get more people

:23:51.:23:56.

in work and then it is important to get more people upscaling. As that

:23:57.:24:03.

allowance rises, people have more of the money they earn in their pocket

:24:04.:24:08.

to be able to use in the economy. People will be worse off. 2500,

:24:09.:24:14.

among the poorest already. They will have more money in their pocket as

:24:15.:24:20.

we increase the allowance before people pay tax. We have seen

:24:21.:24:26.

millions of people coming out of tax altogether. The reason I ask these

:24:27.:24:30.

questions, you and the Prime Minister go on and on about the just

:24:31.:24:35.

about managing classes. I am talking about the just about managing and

:24:36.:24:39.

below that. It is all talk, you haven't done anything for them. We

:24:40.:24:43.

have made sure they have an increasing minimum wage, it has gone

:24:44.:24:48.

up more under us than any other previous government. Their wages

:24:49.:24:54.

will be still lower in real terms. Let me come on to this plan for

:24:55.:24:59.

housing. We have announced a new plan to increase affordable housing,

:25:00.:25:04.

social housing, some council housing and social housing built by the

:25:05.:25:08.

associations. How much money is behind this? It is part of the 1.4

:25:09.:25:12.

billion announced in the Autumn Statement. How many homes will you

:25:13.:25:20.

get for 1.4 billion? That depends on the negotiations with local

:25:21.:25:23.

authorities. It is local authorities, who know the area best.

:25:24.:25:30.

I will not put a number on that. 1.4 billion, if you price the house at

:25:31.:25:34.

100,000, which is very low, particularly for the South, back at

:25:35.:25:40.

you 14,000 new homes. That is it. What we have seen before, how the

:25:41.:25:45.

local government can leveraged to build thousands more homes. That is

:25:46.:25:49.

what we want to see across the country. It is not just about the

:25:50.:25:53.

money, for a lot of local authorities it is about the

:25:54.:25:56.

expertise and knowledge on how to do this. That is why support from the

:25:57.:26:02.

housing communities minister will help. What is the timescale, how

:26:03.:26:08.

many more affordable homes will be built? I will not put a number on

:26:09.:26:13.

it. You announced it today, so you cannot tell me how many more or what

:26:14.:26:18.

the target is? It is a matter of working with the local authorities

:26:19.:26:21.

who know what their local needs are, what land they have got available.

:26:22.:26:25.

What we saw through the local elections with the Metro mayors,

:26:26.:26:30.

they want to deliver in their areas, whether it is the West of England,

:26:31.:26:33.

the north-east, Liverpool, Manchester and we want to work with

:26:34.:26:38.

them. You have said variations of this for the past seven years and I

:26:39.:26:42.

want some credibility. When you cannot tell us how much money, what

:26:43.:26:48.

the target and timescale is, and this government, under which

:26:49.:26:51.

affordable house building has fallen to a 24 year low. 1.2 million

:26:52.:26:57.

families are on waiting lists for social housing to rent. That is your

:26:58.:27:03.

record. Why should we believe a word you say? This is different to what

:27:04.:27:07.

we have been doing over the last two years. We want to develop and have a

:27:08.:27:12.

strong and stable economy that can sustain that 1.4 billion homes. This

:27:13.:27:19.

is important. In 2010, we inherited the lowest level of house building,

:27:20.:27:25.

75,000 new homes. That is about 189,000 over the last four years.

:27:26.:27:30.

That is a big step forward after the crash, getting people back into the

:27:31.:27:34.

industry. More first-time buyers onto the market. Final question, in

:27:35.:27:45.

2010, 2011, your first year in government, there were 60,000

:27:46.:27:50.

affordable homes built. May not be enough, but last day it was 30 2000.

:27:51.:27:58.

So why should we trust anything you say about this? On housing, we have

:27:59.:28:05.

delivered. We have delivered more social housing. Double what Labour

:28:06.:28:11.

did in 13 years, in just five years. This is what this policy is about,

:28:12.:28:15.

working with local authorities to deliver more homes to people in

:28:16.:28:16.

their local areas. Thank you. Now, they have a deficit

:28:17.:28:20.

of between 15 and 20% in the polls, but Jeremy Corbyn and those

:28:21.:28:23.

around him insist Labour can win. If the polls are right they've got

:28:24.:28:26.

three and half weeks to change voters' minds and persuade those

:28:27.:28:29.

fabled undecided voters We enlisted the polling organisation

:28:30.:28:31.

YouGov to help us find out how the performance of party leaders

:28:32.:28:36.

will affect behaviour Leeds, a city of three quarters

:28:37.:28:38.

of a million people, eight Parliamentary seats and home

:28:39.:28:47.

to our very own focus group. Our panel was recruited

:28:48.:28:52.

from a variety of backgrounds and the majority say they haven't

:28:53.:28:55.

decided who to vote for yet. Watching behind the glass,

:28:56.:28:59.

two experts on different sides Giles Cunningham, who headed up

:29:00.:29:01.

political press at Downing Street under David Cameron

:29:02.:29:08.

and Aaron Bastani, Corbin supporter, under David Cameron

:29:09.:29:15.

and Aaron Bastani, Corbyn supporter, I think Theresa May sees herself

:29:16.:29:17.

as a pound shop Thatcher. Milliband's policies but when it

:29:18.:29:21.

came about who you want,

:29:22.:29:41.

if you wake up on maybe a 2015, We found in a couple of focus

:29:42.:29:45.

groups, people saying we'd be quite relieved,

:29:46.:29:48.

even though some of those same people have been saying we quite

:29:49.:29:51.

like the Labour policies. I think the fact that Corbyn's

:29:52.:29:53.

going so hard on his values, this is a really progressive

:29:54.:29:58.

manifesto, they live But I think that's a new challenge,

:29:59.:30:00.

that wasn't there in 2015. Is there anyone here that

:30:01.:30:04.

you don't recognise? After a little warm up,

:30:05.:30:06.

the first exercise, recognising I think it's nice to have a strong

:30:07.:30:08.

woman in politics, I do. But I've got to say,

:30:09.:30:15.

when she comes on the news, I kind of do think,

:30:16.:30:17.

here we go again. Tell me about Tim Farron, what

:30:18.:30:20.

are your impressions of Tim Farron? It isn't going to do anything,

:30:21.:30:22.

it isn't going to change anything. You'll be surprised to hear it's

:30:23.:30:27.

actually the Greens. Strong and stable leadership

:30:28.:30:35.

in the national interest. Yes, Team May, it's

:30:36.:30:48.

the British equivalent of make What do we think about this one

:30:49.:30:53.

for the many and not the few? It's not quite as bad

:30:54.:31:03.

as strong and stable, but it will probably get

:31:04.:31:05.

on our nerves after a while. We must seize that chance today

:31:06.:31:07.

and every day until June the 8th. But that's not quite my

:31:08.:31:18.

question, my question is, if you are Prime Minister,

:31:19.:31:26.

we will leave, come hell or high water, whatever is on the table

:31:27.:31:28.

at the end of the negotiations? If we win the election,

:31:29.:31:32.

we'll get a good deal with Europe. Assertive and in control

:31:33.:31:34.

and he felt comfortable But the second one, I thought

:31:35.:31:36.

he was very hesitant. I thought he was kind of,

:31:37.:31:41.

hovering around, skirting around and that's the second

:31:42.:31:50.

time I've seen a similar interview with the question

:31:51.:31:53.

being asked regarding Brexit. I don't think I'd have

:31:54.:31:55.

any confidence with him You think you are going up

:31:56.:31:57.

against some quite strong people, how are you going to stand

:31:58.:32:00.

up for us? When you are in negotiations,

:32:01.:32:03.

you need to be tough. And actually is right

:32:04.:32:07.

to be tough sometimes, particularly when you are doing

:32:08.:32:09.

something for the country. There's a reason for talking

:32:10.:32:11.

about strong and stable leadership. It's about the future

:32:12.:32:14.

of the country, it's It's just that people kind of listen

:32:15.:32:16.

to that kind of thing and think Both on The One Show

:32:17.:32:20.

and in the news. She attracts the public better

:32:21.:32:26.

than what Corbyn does. She didn't answer the question

:32:27.:32:32.

in a more articular way than Corbyn Imagine that Theresa

:32:33.:32:35.

May is an animal. So, in your minds,

:32:36.:32:41.

what animal is coming to mind I've done a Pekinese because I think

:32:42.:32:44.

she's all bark and no bite. Alpaca because she's

:32:45.:32:58.

superior looking and woolly I don't think his policies

:32:59.:33:05.

are for the modern, real world. A mouse because they are weak

:33:06.:33:20.

and they can be easily bullied, but also they can catch

:33:21.:33:24.

you by surprise if you're What do you take away

:33:25.:33:26.

from what you saw then, and what message would you send back

:33:27.:33:34.

to the Tories now? I think what came over is people see

:33:35.:33:37.

Theresa May as a strong politician, not everyone likes her,

:33:38.:33:40.

but you don't need to be liked to be elected,

:33:41.:33:42.

because ultimately it's about who do you trust with your future

:33:43.:33:45.

and your security. I think what I also take out

:33:46.:33:47.

of that focus group, was it was a group of floating

:33:48.:33:50.

voters, there was no huge appetite for the Lib Dems and there was no

:33:51.:33:52.

huge appetite for Ukip. So my messaged back to CCHQ

:33:53.:33:55.

would be stick to the plan. I thought the response

:33:56.:33:58.

to the manifesto was excellent. It's clear that people aren't

:33:59.:34:02.

particularly keen on Theresa May, There are some associations with her

:34:03.:34:04.

about strength and stability, which is exactly what the Tory party

:34:05.:34:09.

want of course, but they are not positive and nobody thinks

:34:10.:34:12.

that she has a vision So, what I'd say the Jeremy Corbyn,

:34:13.:34:14.

what I'd say to the Labour Party is, they need to really emphasise

:34:15.:34:21.

the manifesto in Jeremy Corbyn himself has to perform

:34:22.:34:23.

out of his skin and I think he has to reemphasise those

:34:24.:34:29.

characteristics which may be have come to the fore may be

:34:30.:34:32.

over the last 12 months, resilience, strength and the fact

:34:33.:34:34.

that he's come this far, why not take that final step and go

:34:35.:34:37.

into ten Downing Street? We're joined now by the American

:34:38.:34:39.

political consultant For the sake of this discussion,

:34:40.:34:47.

assume the polls at the moment are broadly right, is there any hope for

:34:48.:34:54.

Mr Corbyn in the undecided voters? Know, and this is a very serious

:34:55.:35:00.

collection with serious consequences to who wins. Nobody cares whether

:35:01.:35:03.

you can draw and what animal they represent, they want to know where

:35:04.:35:08.

they stand, and I felt that was frivolous. I come to Britain to

:35:09.:35:12.

watch elections because I learned from here. Your elections are more

:35:13.:35:17.

substantial, more serious, more policy and less about personality

:35:18.:35:21.

and that peace was only about personality. That's partly because

:35:22.:35:26.

Mrs May has decided to make this a presidential election. You can see

:35:27.:35:36.

on the posters it is all Team May. I agree with that, and in her language

:35:37.:35:43.

she says not everyone benefits from a Conservative government, I don't

:35:44.:35:47.

see how using anything Republicans have used in the past. In fact her

:35:48.:35:52.

campaign is more of a centrist Democrats but it is a smart strategy

:35:53.:35:56.

because it pushes Corbyn further to the left. Of course you said Hillary

:35:57.:36:02.

Clinton have won. On election night the polling was so bad in America,

:36:03.:36:07.

the exit polls that were done, the BBC told America she had won. No, I

:36:08.:36:13.

was anchoring the programme that night, I ignored your tweet. The BBC

:36:14.:36:21.

had the same numbers. Yes, but we did not say she had won, I can

:36:22.:36:25.

assure you of that. Because of people like you we thought she had

:36:26.:36:31.

but we didn't broadcast it. That was a smart approach. My point is other

:36:32.:36:38.

than teasing you, maybe there is hope for Jeremy Corbyn. I think you

:36:39.:36:43.

will have one of the lowest turnout in modern history and I think Labour

:36:44.:36:48.

will fall to one of the lowest percentages, not percentage of

:36:49.:36:52.

number of seats they have had, and this will be a matter of

:36:53.:36:55.

soul-searching for both political parties. What you do with a sizeable

:36:56.:37:01.

majority, and she has a responsibility to tell the British

:37:02.:37:04.

people exactly what happens as she moves forward. He and Labour will

:37:05.:37:10.

have to take a look at whether they still represent a significant slice

:37:11.:37:15.

of the British population. Do you see a realignment in British

:37:16.:37:20.

politics taking place? I see a crumbling of the left and yet there

:37:21.:37:24.

is still a significant percentage of the British population that once

:37:25.:37:28.

someone who is centre-left. And they like a lot of Mr Corbyn's policies.

:37:29.:37:37.

I'm listening to Michael foot. I went to school here in the 1980s and

:37:38.:37:40.

I feel like I'm watching the Labour Party of 35 years ago, in a

:37:41.:37:43.

population that wants to focus on the future, not the past. Thank you.

:37:44.:37:49.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:50.:37:51.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:37:52.:37:54.

I'm Julia George and this is the Sunday Politics

:37:55.:38:05.

This morning, in the first of our general election programmes

:38:06.:38:08.

focusing on key issues affecting the region,

:38:09.:38:10.

we'll be looking at our road and rail services, both sources

:38:11.:38:13.

of increasing frustration for commuters and motorists.

:38:14.:38:17.

To discuss these, I'm joined by Huw Merriman for the Conservatives,

:38:18.:38:19.

Labour's Vince Maple and Chris Bower from the Liberal Democrats.

:38:20.:38:22.

The row between Southern Rail and the unions

:38:23.:38:27.

has rarely been out of the headlines over the past year.

:38:28.:38:30.

Strikes over the rail company's plans to introduce driver only

:38:31.:38:33.

operated trains are costing the South East economy

:38:34.:38:36.

So what can be done to improve our railways?

:38:37.:38:39.

We sent our reporter Briony Williams to find out.

:38:40.:38:43.

Packed trains and commuter chaos have become synonymous

:38:44.:38:45.

with the Southern Rail network over the past 12 months.

:38:46.:38:50.

31 days of strike action called by the RMT Union has made it

:38:51.:38:54.

the worst industrial action to hit the rail industry for 23 years.

:38:55.:39:00.

The year-long dispute over driver only operated trains has affected

:39:01.:39:04.

hundreds of thousands of journeys across 156 stations

:39:05.:39:09.

for people's personal lives and livelihoods.

:39:10.:39:16.

There was a month where I didn't pay myself

:39:17.:39:19.

and, if it had carried on much longer,

:39:20.:39:21.

footfall in the station in general was down,

:39:22.:39:29.

and it had a big knock-on effect on local business,

:39:30.:39:31.

Over the past year, 58,983 trains were fully

:39:32.:39:39.

With the overall cost to the economy and the South East amounting

:39:40.:39:44.

On top of that, the Government has paid out

:39:45.:39:51.

That's not the only problem for commuters in the region.

:39:52.:39:58.

A recent survey by the independent watchdog, Transport Focus,

:39:59.:40:02.

found that Southern was the worst performing train operator

:40:03.:40:05.

in the country, with only 30% of those surveyed saying

:40:06.:40:08.

that their last journey was punctual, and only one in eight

:40:09.:40:10.

saying that the company dealt well with delays.

:40:11.:40:15.

Southeastern and Thameslink didn't fare much better.

:40:16.:40:18.

Southern and Thameslink bosses say it's improved in recent months,

:40:19.:40:22.

Southeastern say many of its passengers

:40:23.:40:28.

and it's investing to improve where it needs to.

:40:29.:40:33.

I think it could be better, but it could be worse.

:40:34.:40:36.

So I'm less unhappy than many of the people

:40:37.:40:38.

who were affected by the strikes, I suspect.

:40:39.:40:42.

Yeah, no, they are very good, very dependable,

:40:43.:40:44.

It's badly managed, it's irregular, it's inconvenient,

:40:45.:40:50.

In Brighton and Hove, the main arguments are...

:40:51.:40:59.

I think if rail was brought back into public ownership,

:41:00.:41:02.

it would help solve some of the problems we've seen

:41:03.:41:04.

not least because you would know where the buck stopped.

:41:05.:41:08.

I mean, trying to fight with Southern over the fact

:41:09.:41:10.

they have had such dreadful service for well over a year now

:41:11.:41:13.

because you never know exactly who is responsible for what,

:41:14.:41:18.

and they duck and they dive and they blame the Government,

:41:19.:41:20.

So, at the very least, we would have real accountability,

:41:21.:41:24.

and I think that's absolutely essential

:41:25.:41:26.

when it comes to our railway services.

:41:27.:41:28.

We should bring our railways back into public ownership,

:41:29.:41:30.

and I think many more people in Brighton think that we should.

:41:31.:41:33.

So, under a Labour government, we're going to renationalise our railways,

:41:34.:41:35.

we're going to have proper investment

:41:36.:41:37.

and deliver a good, publicly owned service.

:41:38.:41:38.

What we need is an ombudsman to champion commuters,

:41:39.:41:41.

and to have accountability so there is somewhere for commuters

:41:42.:41:43.

to go to to get their money back and to champion their rights.

:41:44.:41:49.

And, for those who are impacted day in, day out?

:41:50.:41:54.

I think there needs to be some tangible changes to the way

:41:55.:41:57.

and what the unions are allowed to get away with.

:41:58.:42:05.

With the train drivers union, Aslef, and the RMT Union both due to resume

:42:06.:42:09.

separate talks with the Southern bosses this coming week,

:42:10.:42:13.

there is still no definitive end in sight.

:42:14.:42:16.

So can any of the solutions put forward by the political parties

:42:17.:42:20.

And we've just seen the latest report on rail performance

:42:21.:42:27.

by the regulator, the Office for Rail and Road,

:42:28.:42:30.

which shows Southern's parent company, Govia Thameslink,

:42:31.:42:32.

in terms of cancellations and delays in over a decade.

:42:33.:42:39.

Let's start with you, Chris Bower. Let's clarify the Liberal Democrat

:42:40.:42:48.

position. Tim Farron told the BBC that he wanted to strip Southern of

:42:49.:42:53.

its franchise. That sounds like we nationalise a. Is that your policy?

:42:54.:42:57.

The policy which will come out in the manifesto is that we want to

:42:58.:43:00.

strip Southern of its franchise, but we also want to work towards a

:43:01.:43:07.

long-term franchising opportunity. There will be an interim period

:43:08.:43:11.

where it will be owned by the gunmen, the same with Govia

:43:12.:43:17.

Thameslink. We need to have some elected local authority

:43:18.:43:20.

representative is as part of that. Is it just Southern that you would

:43:21.:43:27.

strip of its franchise? Southern and Govia Thameslink. One of the most

:43:28.:43:29.

compensated franchises in the country. It is Southern's management

:43:30.:43:35.

who file. We have to put a word in for their staff, they do a brilliant

:43:36.:43:40.

staff, covering up for the failures of their management. It sounds a lot

:43:41.:43:44.

like renationalisation. In what way is it not? I you afraid to use the

:43:45.:43:50.

word because Labour use the word in delicate manifesto. It involves the

:43:51.:43:58.

local authority management. In what way we do involve the local

:43:59.:44:01.

authority? You have boards which involve local councillors. Just for

:44:02.:44:07.

scrutiny? For scrutiny, overall covenants, but we would have rail

:44:08.:44:12.

companies actually running the railways, we're not going back to

:44:13.:44:18.

the state running the railway. In some ways, that sounds more radical

:44:19.:44:26.

than your party. You would wait until the franchises expire before

:44:27.:44:30.

the nationalising. In some parts of the network, they would still be

:44:31.:44:34.

radically owned in 2029. It is about finding a pragmatic solution. What

:44:35.:44:37.

we have seen in the last 12 months with the southern dispute has been

:44:38.:44:41.

chaos for commuters. I agree with Chris that the blame for that is to

:44:42.:44:45.

be very carefully with the senior management. They have been tried

:44:46.:44:51.

bring those parties together. The policy we have in our manifesto is

:44:52.:44:57.

clear, the public are frustrated with expensive fares, a regular

:44:58.:45:01.

train services, they want to see a decent public service, not for

:45:02.:45:04.

profit, but for the public service for commuters across the region who

:45:05.:45:16.

... We have to be clear, the management are not here to defend

:45:17.:45:21.

themselves. I do agree that longer term, we need to take it in a

:45:22.:45:35.

southern deadlock is broken, is your southern deadlock is broken, is your

:45:36.:45:40.

Holocene to crush your things and hope the problem goes away? It was

:45:41.:45:45.

terrible in 2016, we had industrial action and the redevelopment of

:45:46.:45:49.

London Bridge, Southern's management maintain that was a key factor. What

:45:50.:45:54.

we now have is Southern's public performance measurement going up

:45:55.:45:58.

from six to 5% last year to 87%, which suggests that the fault was

:45:59.:46:03.

with the unions were going on strike and with nationalised Network Rail

:46:04.:46:06.

the overrunning of London Bridge. To turn back to those policies in terms

:46:07.:46:11.

of nationalisation and giving unions or power would send us back to where

:46:12.:46:15.

we were last year, which would be a disaster. We need to move forward.

:46:16.:46:19.

To be fair to Southern, if they have turned the corner, we need to help

:46:20.:46:24.

them get on with it. Looking at the wider issues on the railways, and

:46:25.:46:28.

you can come back on this. In 2011, Philip Hammond said, and cup double

:46:29.:46:35.

fact another one, the railways are already a vertically rich man's toy

:46:36.:46:39.

come the whole railway. If you are a party for the people who are just

:46:40.:46:41.

about managing, what will you do about managing, what will you do

:46:42.:46:45.

see how Labour's figures will stack see how Labour's figures will stack

:46:46.:46:48.

up. They are talking about getting rid of driver controlled trains, 76%

:46:49.:46:54.

of Southern's trains are driver controlled. It doesn't add up to me

:46:55.:47:02.

at all. What is important is that railways self fund themselves, which

:47:03.:47:08.

allows us to put money into upgrading the tracks and stations.

:47:09.:47:11.

You don't agree that we need to do something about rail fares? I agree

:47:12.:47:14.

that they are expensive, but we need to make sure that they pay for the

:47:15.:47:18.

service, which allows taxpayer money to go into improving in the

:47:19.:47:25.

structure. What gets me is this whole business about hiding behind

:47:26.:47:29.

the militant unions. How are customers of the railways going to

:47:30.:47:30.

be any better about the Government be any better about the Government

:47:31.:47:36.

that hides behind the union? They also want to know what you what to

:47:37.:47:41.

do about fares. I have a friend who is an ICU nurse, on her part-time

:47:42.:47:47.

nurses wage, she has to pay ?35 50 every time she travels from the

:47:48.:47:52.

bridge wells to London Bridge. What are your party is going to do about

:47:53.:47:57.

rail this question Mike in the coalition, we work on reducing bus

:47:58.:48:01.

fares. We would love to bring the rail fares down. What are you going

:48:02.:48:07.

to due to bring rail fares down? We will maintain the profit element.

:48:08.:48:14.

Your ICU nurse friend, part of that there will be going to pay

:48:15.:48:18.

shareholders. That should not be the case, it should be for the public,

:48:19.:48:21.

not the profit. Our railways may need improving,

:48:22.:48:23.

but are the roads faring any better? When the government announced

:48:24.:48:26.

a giant ?250 million lorry park it was meant to be a solution

:48:27.:48:29.

to Operation Stack, a temporary measure that

:48:30.:48:33.

turned parts of the M20 into a lorry park a total

:48:34.:48:35.

of 32 times in just that year. But work on the project appears

:48:36.:48:38.

to have stalled because of

:48:39.:48:43.

a pending judicial review. Our reporter, Heather Edwards,

:48:44.:48:45.

joins us from the proposed site of the lorry park in

:48:46.:48:48.

the village of Stanford. Well, other than the distant

:48:49.:48:51.

rumble from the motorway, here in the countryside

:48:52.:48:53.

around Stanford. We've had the dog

:48:54.:48:56.

walkers out already. The Government has bold

:48:57.:48:58.

plans for this land. It wants to build what could be

:48:59.:49:01.

the world's biggest lorry park, twice the size of Disneyland,

:49:02.:49:04.

with capacity for 3,600 lorries. I'm sure you can imagine, many local

:49:05.:49:09.

people are horrified at the plans. I'm joined here by the chair

:49:10.:49:13.

of Stanford parish council, Matthew Webb, and also

:49:14.:49:15.

Christopher Snelling, from the Freight Transport

:49:16.:49:17.

Association. Matthew, this is not

:49:18.:49:20.

going to be Disneyland. Horrified, is that a reasonable

:49:21.:49:22.

description of how you feel? Our residents provide and dismayed

:49:23.:49:25.

that this should be proposed. They are very concerned

:49:26.:49:29.

about the environmental health of their families,

:49:30.:49:31.

and also we just do not think it doesn't get the freight

:49:32.:49:34.

anywhere any more quickly. What you need to do is improve

:49:35.:49:40.

capacity and resilience And Eurotunnel, Port of Dover have

:49:41.:49:43.

helped do that in recent months. There's been better security around

:49:44.:49:51.

the Channel Tunnel on the French side, the Jungle has been cleared,

:49:52.:49:54.

and all of those things have helped contribute to the fact

:49:55.:49:57.

that we haven't seen Operation Stack I mean, your members at

:49:58.:49:59.

the Freight Transport Association, Would you want this

:50:00.:50:06.

on your doorstep? I think the first important

:50:07.:50:09.

thing to say is that this won't be a lorry park,

:50:10.:50:12.

it's a lorry area. It's supposed to be

:50:13.:50:14.

empty most of the time. It's an emergency reserve

:50:15.:50:16.

for the normally two or three days a year that we need it

:50:17.:50:19.

for Operation Stack. The purpose of it is to get

:50:20.:50:21.

the lorry divers safe, and somewhere where they have

:50:22.:50:24.

toilet facilities. Also, most importantly,

:50:25.:50:26.

to keep the motorway open. If the motorway ever shuts,

:50:27.:50:28.

that's a massive blight on the people of Kent and anyone

:50:29.:50:30.

trying to get through it. You talk about blight -

:50:31.:50:33.

as Matthew said, 3,600 diesel lorries in one location,

:50:34.:50:36.

pumping out fumes. You can understand, surely,

:50:37.:50:37.

the concerns of local people and the impact it's going to have

:50:38.:50:40.

on the environment. If they are sat here

:50:41.:50:42.

in a lorry area, they are not

:50:43.:50:45.

going to be pumping out fumes because they are going

:50:46.:50:47.

to be switched off. It is an essential resource for us

:50:48.:50:49.

to be able to keep the motorways functioning for everything

:50:50.:50:52.

else and everyone else We have to keep Kent working,

:50:53.:50:54.

even when Operation Stack occurs. That is an important

:50:55.:50:57.

point, Matthew, surely? 11,000 lorries a day,

:50:58.:51:01.

rolling on and off ferries at Dover. Those lorries have got

:51:02.:51:04.

to have somewhere to go. I would say that you need

:51:05.:51:12.

to bear in mind that during the summer of 2015,

:51:13.:51:14.

there were 9,000 lorries stuck You will still have 5,400

:51:15.:51:19.

on the motorway, not going anywhere. You need to fix the problems that

:51:20.:51:27.

cause Stack, not the symptoms. 3,600 lorries when we had 9,000

:51:28.:51:31.

lorries stuck during 2015, it's not big enough,

:51:32.:51:38.

and it's an awful lot of money. That was only for the very worst two

:51:39.:51:42.

or three days we ever had. Normally, Stack is on the order

:51:43.:51:46.

of 2,000 or 3,000 vehicles, Matthew was right,

:51:47.:51:49.

the best thing of all We don't want to be sat here,

:51:50.:51:52.

waiting, we want to be getting across the Channel

:51:53.:51:56.

and servicing our customers. But some of those

:51:57.:51:58.

problems are intractable. We're never going to fix

:51:59.:52:00.

the weather in the channel, it's still going to be a problem

:52:01.:52:02.

from time to time. We need to have emergency

:52:03.:52:05.

plans in place. And, of course, we've got

:52:06.:52:07.

Brexit on the horizon. The CEO of Dover says that that

:52:08.:52:09.

could mean we have Operation Stack Christopher, briefly,

:52:10.:52:12.

how worried are your members about what is going to happen

:52:13.:52:15.

in two years' time? It's one of the chief

:52:16.:52:17.

issues for us with Brexit, that if we have any potential

:52:18.:52:21.

additional customs checks that we have to go through at Dover,

:52:22.:52:23.

if the border is brought back, then that could add a lot

:52:24.:52:27.

to the time getting across. If you are talking about 10,000

:52:28.:52:29.

or 11,000 movements every day, it would not take much for that

:52:30.:52:32.

to go wrong, and suddenly you've got

:52:33.:52:34.

Operation Stack a lot more often, The judicial review

:52:35.:52:37.

is in the autumn. For now, thank you both

:52:38.:52:42.

very much indeed. Matthew Webb

:52:43.:52:45.

and Christopher Snelling, Thank you.

:52:46.:52:46.

Thank you. Huw Merriman, you were on the

:52:47.:52:59.

Transport Select Committee, which is critical on the lorry park. You have

:53:00.:53:02.

heard it before, the Government's decision was taken hastily in

:53:03.:53:06.

reaction to the events of 2015. They came up with the policy and came up

:53:07.:53:11.

with a justification afterwards. To what agreed you agree with those?

:53:12.:53:17.

Three months previously, we put our first report out before the covenant

:53:18.:53:20.

had taken action. We reported it was hard to find any other possible

:53:21.:53:24.

solution bar a lorry park at Stanford. Three months later, we

:53:25.:53:27.

then attacked the Government for making a hasty decision. I did not

:53:28.:53:32.

agree with the second report. I made a menace to the report to stop us

:53:33.:53:38.

being hypocritical. We heard evidence from all the local

:53:39.:53:48.

authorities, we only heard evidence that was against it. That summer in

:53:49.:53:55.

Kent was chaos. It was bad for health, for business. We cannot see

:53:56.:53:59.

that happening again. It will seem extraordinary for people that you

:54:00.:54:05.

don't need planning permission for this enormous lorry park. There has

:54:06.:54:12.

been a consultation period set for people to feedback. There will be

:54:13.:54:16.

the usual legal process. No planning permission? What we have got in

:54:17.:54:21.

place is a park that has had work already start on it. There is a

:54:22.:54:24.

judicial review around the corner. When Terminal five was built, it

:54:25.:54:28.

took eight years to get through the legal process would I don't want

:54:29.:54:30.

that to happen again, otherwise you will have another summer in Kent

:54:31.:54:38.

like pretty 15. Surely you can see the need for this lorry park? What

:54:39.:54:43.

is clear to me is that the status quo of Operation Stack happening for

:54:44.:54:51.

ever is not viable. We need that the happen. You plunged when you had the

:54:52.:54:54.

support that with Brexit coming, we will have Operation Stack everyday.

:54:55.:55:02.

Is that hyperbole? Who knows? We need to be prepared for these

:55:03.:55:05.

things. I love living in Kent are part of the problem is that we have

:55:06.:55:09.

the huge Port of Dover, which comes with challenges. The reality is we

:55:10.:55:11.

need to have solutions to those problems. Have all of the solutions

:55:12.:55:14.

being looked at here? I looked at being looked at here? I looked at

:55:15.:55:19.

the footage of the committee, hours of that footage. The question that

:55:20.:55:27.

they not properly looked at the they not properly looked at the

:55:28.:55:31.

alternatives? Where are the cost analyses of all of the alternatives?

:55:32.:55:33.

Part of that is looking at what will Part of that is looking at what will

:55:34.:55:38.

happen if this goes ahead. There needs to be funding to make sure

:55:39.:55:43.

this goes ahead. They need to be a costing structure. The risk is, if

:55:44.:55:48.

it is not done properly... We need a solution. We need to look at farm

:55:49.:55:54.

alternatives, more rail freight, get more freight off the roads and on

:55:55.:55:59.

the rail capacity. Do we need to do the rail capacity. Do we need to do

:56:00.:56:03.

that as well? Yes, we do, we need to improve communications. When we talk

:56:04.:56:08.

about Brexit, we talk about the custom union and the single market.

:56:09.:56:13.

This is the real application of that. If we leave the customs union,

:56:14.:56:16.

leave the single market, Operation Stack will seem like being stuck for

:56:17.:56:22.

a couple of minutes at a red traffic light. The boards are telling us

:56:23.:56:27.

that they are already at capacity for the administration of seeing

:56:28.:56:29.

vehicles through. If we are then going to have extra customs

:56:30.:56:33.

formalities, that will make it unworkable. The new President of

:56:34.:56:40.

France... He wants to bring the border over to this country. In this

:56:41.:56:43.

case don't we need the lorry park and other lorry parks and your idea

:56:44.:56:48.

about moving the freight onto the railways, and possibly the getting

:56:49.:56:58.

of details to the drivers. We need to make sure we keep all of the

:56:59.:57:01.

lorries out of the South East until they know it is going to be clear,

:57:02.:57:08.

then you need the last resort. All of these points will add that in the

:57:09.:57:12.

amity report. Looking at other ports, looking at additional lanes

:57:13.:57:14.

on the motorways will take years and on the motorways will take years and

:57:15.:57:19.

cost billions. In the meantime, Kent continues to suffer the inherent

:57:20.:57:23.

danger of that summer chaos. We can't allow that to happen. What

:57:24.:57:25.

about the inherent danger to people about the inherent danger to people

:57:26.:57:30.

living in Stanford, looking at the particulate from those diesel

:57:31.:57:34.

lorries. They are right to say, where is the investigation into the

:57:35.:57:37.

environment or health issues here? That has all been studied as part of

:57:38.:57:42.

the consultation. Let's look at the alternative, all those lorries

:57:43.:57:44.

engines running, not just on the engines running, not just on the

:57:45.:57:49.

motorways. The villages are blocked, there is a pollution there as the

:57:50.:57:54.

noise and inconvenience, as well as being unable to get to hospitals or

:57:55.:57:57.

to work. This is a better outcome than suffering the consequences that

:57:58.:58:02.

Kent suffered last summer. It is not just about the whole of Kent. It was

:58:03.:58:08.

North and West Kent affected as well, the whole county, it is a

:58:09.:58:11.

national issue. If we can't get the freight moving, it will impact

:58:12.:58:15.

business. Would you have this scrapped immediately if you were

:58:16.:58:23.

elected? We would put it on hold. We cannot solve solutions with predict

:58:24.:58:27.

and provide. We have to address them an first. A quick question, would

:58:28.:58:32.

this operate as a conventional lorry park all year round? How report

:58:33.:58:39.

suggested do so. The issue with Stack, and also illegal parking. We

:58:40.:58:42.

want to see it operated all the way around as a legal lorry park was a

:58:43.:58:46.

big deals with two issues rather than just one. Thank you.

:58:47.:58:49.

And now here's some of the other news you may have missed

:58:50.:58:52.

The chairman of the Kent branch of Ukip has confirmed

:58:53.:59:00.

he will be standing down from the role,

:59:01.:59:02.

and as the party's candidate in Sittingbourne and Sheppey.

:59:03.:59:05.

It follows critical comments made on this programme

:59:06.:59:08.

about the party leader, Paul Nuttall.

:59:09.:59:10.

We could have a different leadership team at the top.

:59:11.:59:12.

But Richard Palmer told the BBC that he needed a rest,

:59:13.:59:15.

and the local party had made a decision not to field a candidate

:59:16.:59:18.

Parents in Brighton and Hove have launched a campaign

:59:19.:59:23.

in the run-up to the general election,

:59:24.:59:25.

calling for greater funding for schools.

:59:26.:59:27.

Banners were displayed, claiming cuts to school budgets

:59:28.:59:30.

would have devastating impact on education.

:59:31.:59:33.

It's going to have a detrimental effect on my children

:59:34.:59:35.

and therefore the future of the country.

:59:36.:59:39.

The Government says it's spending more than ever on schools.

:59:40.:59:42.

showing a workman removing a star from the EU flag,

:59:43.:59:45.

The street artist's latest work, believed to be a comment on Brexit,

:59:46.:59:50.

Dover District Council said it would be monitoring

:59:51.:59:54.

A really quick thought on beta won. A blessing or a curse? Yes, Gita. A

:59:55.:00:23.

blessing, yes. Love it. Consensus! Thank you.

:00:24.:00:25.

This programme is part of a series of shows

:00:26.:00:27.

we will be hearing from all the major parties

:00:28.:00:30.

standing candidates in the South East on a range of issues

:00:31.:00:33.

during the general election campaign.

:00:34.:00:39.

That's all we've got time for from the South East this week.

:00:40.:00:42.

Natalie Graham will be here next week.

:00:43.:00:47.

Tories are saying. It is a very emotive subject and we have run out

:00:48.:00:57.

of time. On Thursday nominations closed

:00:58.:01:05.

in the 650 parliamentary seats across the country,

:01:06.:01:09.

so now we know exactly who's We've been analysing the parties'

:01:10.:01:12.

candidates to find out what they might tell us

:01:13.:01:19.

about the make-up of the House Well, we know Theresa May is

:01:20.:01:21.

committed to delivering Brexit and analysis of Conservative

:01:22.:01:26.

candidates has shown that in their top 100 target seats,

:01:27.:01:31.

37 candidates supported leave during last year's referendum

:01:32.:01:33.

campaign and 20 supported remain; 43

:01:34.:01:41.

have not made public In the last parliament,

:01:42.:01:43.

the vast majority of Labour MPs were hostile to Jeremy Corbyn so how

:01:44.:01:50.

supportive are Labour Well, of 50 of Labour's

:01:51.:01:52.

top 100 target seats 17 candidates have expressed

:01:53.:01:58.

support for Mr Corbyn. 20 candidates supported Owen Smith

:01:59.:02:01.

in last year's leadership contest or have expressed

:02:02.:02:06.

anti-Corbyn sentiment, and If they won those,

:02:07.:02:10.

the Labour benches would be marginally more sympathetic

:02:11.:02:16.

to Mr Corbyn than they are now. What do the figures tell us

:02:17.:02:18.

about where the other Well, the Lib Dems have decided not

:02:19.:02:20.

to stand against the Greens in Brighton Pavilion,

:02:21.:02:24.

and are fielding 629 candidates this year -

:02:25.:02:26.

that's two fewer than 2015. The number of Ukip candidates has

:02:27.:02:29.

fallen dramatically. They are standing in 247 fewer

:02:30.:02:33.

constituencies than 2015, throwing their support behind

:02:34.:02:39.

solidly pro-Brexit Tories in some areas such as Lewes

:02:40.:02:41.

and Norfolk North. The Greens are fielding

:02:42.:02:45.

103 fewer candidates than at the last election,

:02:46.:02:49.

standing down to help other progressive candidates

:02:50.:03:00.

in some places. The most liking statistic is the

:03:01.:03:13.

demise in Ukip candidates, is this their swansong? And I think so. It

:03:14.:03:19.

is remarkable how few Ukip candidates are standing. It is hard

:03:20.:03:27.

to see they will suddenly revive in the next couple of years. I think

:03:28.:03:37.

this is probably the end. Frank Luntz mentioned the fragmentation of

:03:38.:03:41.

the left was a feature of this election, but also there is the

:03:42.:03:44.

consolidation of the right, and if you take the things together that

:03:45.:03:48.

could explain why the polls are where they are. Absolutely, that's

:03:49.:03:52.

precisely what happened at the start of the 1980s, the right was

:03:53.:03:58.

incredibly united and that's when we started talking about majorities of

:03:59.:04:04.

over 100 or so. No matter what the size of Theresa May's majority, it

:04:05.:04:10.

will be the total collapse of Ukip, but not just because we are now

:04:11.:04:16.

leaving the EU and that was their only reason for being, but a whole

:04:17.:04:20.

lot of people voted for Ukip because they felt the Tories were no longer

:04:21.:04:28.

listening. Theresa May has given the impression that she is listening,

:04:29.:04:31.

and that is the biggest possible thing that could happen to the Tory

:04:32.:04:40.

vote. Fragmentation of the left, consolidation of the right? It's one

:04:41.:04:45.

of the lessons that is never learnt, it happened in the 1980s, it doesn't

:04:46.:04:50.

take much for the whole thing to fracture so now you have on the

:04:51.:04:53.

centre-left the SNP, the Labour Party, the Greens, the Liberal

:04:54.:05:00.

Democrats all competing for the same votes and when you have, fleetingly

:05:01.:05:05.

perhaps, large numbers coalescing on the right in one party, there is

:05:06.:05:11.

only going to be one outcome. It happens regularly. It doesn't mean

:05:12.:05:15.

the Tories haven't got their own fragility. Two years ago, David

:05:16.:05:20.

Cameron and George Osborne the dominant figures, neither are in

:05:21.:05:23.

Parliament now which is a symptom of the fragility this election is

:05:24.:05:29.

disguising. Mrs May's position in a way reminds me of Mrs Thatcher in

:05:30.:05:34.

the 1980s, I won't be outflanked on the right, Nicolas Sarkozy in

:05:35.:05:39.

France, I won't be outflanked on the right, so the National Front didn't

:05:40.:05:42.

get through either timed he ran to the second round on like this time,

:05:43.:05:47.

and now Mrs May on Brexit won't be outflanked Iver and as a result has

:05:48.:05:53.

seen off right flank. And also she is looking to the left as well with

:05:54.:05:57.

some of the state interventions. What was interesting about the

:05:58.:06:00.

analysis you showed a few minutes ago was the number of Tory

:06:01.:06:04.

candidates who have apparently not declared which way they voted in the

:06:05.:06:08.

referendum, and you would have thought if this election was all

:06:09.:06:13.

about Brexit, as some would claim, that would become an unsustainable

:06:14.:06:16.

position, and actually more it's about leadership. But the point that

:06:17.:06:21.

I'm now hearing from a number of Labour candidates that they are

:06:22.:06:28.

seeing Tory leaflets that don't even have the Tory candidate's name on

:06:29.:06:33.

them, it is just about Theresa May. I am glad they are keeping to the

:06:34.:06:38.

law because by law they have to put it on. It has been harder for some

:06:39.:06:42.

of the smaller parties too because of the speed of the election being

:06:43.:06:49.

called. We have the manifesto is coming out this week. I think Labour

:06:50.:06:55.

Forshaw on Tuesday, we are not yet sure when the Tories will bring

:06:56.:07:00.

bears out. I suggest one thing, it will at least for people like me

:07:01.:07:04.

bring an end to the question you will have to wait for the manifesto.

:07:05.:07:11.

And Rebecca Long baby will never have that excuse again, isn't it

:07:12.:07:21.

wonderful! She is not the only one. When you are trying to take the

:07:22.:07:25.

north and Midlands from Labour, I would go to one or the other. For

:07:26.:07:30.

me, I can barely hold back my excitement over the Tory manifesto.

:07:31.:07:35.

This will be, I think, the most important day for the British

:07:36.:07:39.

government for the next five years. That wasn't irony there? You

:07:40.:07:47.

actually meant that? I'm not even being cynical at all on Sunday

:07:48.:07:51.

Politics! This is a huge day and it's because I think we will see...

:07:52.:08:00.

I don't think Mrs May will play it safe and I don't think we will get

:08:01.:08:04.

the broadbrush stuff that she might be advised to do. I think she will

:08:05.:08:08.

lay out precisely what you want to do over the next five years and take

:08:09.:08:14.

some big risks. Then finally after a year of this guessing and

:08:15.:08:17.

theorising, we will finally work out what Mrs May is all about. She will

:08:18.:08:21.

say she doesn't want the next parliament to be all about Brexit,

:08:22.:08:25.

though she knows that's the next important thing she has to deliver

:08:26.:08:29.

in some way, so she gets a mandate for that if the polls are right but

:08:30.:08:31.

she does have very different ideas from

:08:32.:08:45.

Mr Cameron about how to run a country. She will I assume one to

:08:46.:08:47.

mandate for what these different ideas are. Otherwise there is no

:08:48.:08:50.

point in holding an early election. You will get a majority, but if you

:08:51.:08:53.

get a mandate to carry on implementing the Cameron and Osborne

:08:54.:08:56.

manifesto it would be utterly pointless. I agree, it is the

:08:57.:08:59.

pivotal event of the election and it will be interesting to see the

:09:00.:09:03.

degree to which she expands on the line which interests me about its

:09:04.:09:08.

time to look at the good that government can do. Because in a way

:09:09.:09:14.

this moves the debate on in UK politics from, from 97 the Blair

:09:15.:09:18.

Brown governments were insecure about arguing about the role of

:09:19.:09:23.

government. Cameron Osborne government similarly so, so here you

:09:24.:09:26.

have a Labour Party talking about the role of government and the

:09:27.:09:31.

state, and Tory leader apparently doing so was well. I think that will

:09:32.:09:34.

be really interesting to see whether it is fleshed out in any significant

:09:35.:09:41.

way. And it is not a natural Tory message. Harold Macmillan talked

:09:42.:09:45.

about the role of the state, Ted Heath Mark two was pretty big on the

:09:46.:09:52.

state, the industrial policy and so on, and even if it is not thought to

:09:53.:09:57.

be that Tory, does she get away with it because she deliver such a big

:09:58.:10:02.

victory if that's what she does deliver? Just inject a little note

:10:03.:10:08.

of scepticism, I wonder how much of this is authentically Theresa May. I

:10:09.:10:14.

was interested to and talk to someone who used to sit in cabinet

:10:15.:10:19.

meetings during which Theresa May never expressed an opinion on

:10:20.:10:23.

anything outside the Home Office briefs. Other ministers were roving

:10:24.:10:29.

all over their colleagues' briefs. So where are the ideas coming from?

:10:30.:10:36.

I think we can point to Nick Timothy. One of her closest advisers

:10:37.:10:42.

in Downing Street. It will be interesting to see how that evolves.

:10:43.:10:48.

On Thursday I think we will all be talking about something called

:10:49.:10:59.

Urdington Toryism. Urdington is the suburb of Birmingham where Nick

:11:00.:11:04.

Timothy comes from, who is very much Theresa May's policy brain and

:11:05.:11:10.

leading inspiration. Urdington Toryism is about connecting the

:11:11.:11:13.

party with traditional working class voters, and their belief to do that

:11:14.:11:18.

is not just taking away government out of their lives but showing them

:11:19.:11:22.

that government can actually help their lives. It can be a force for

:11:23.:11:31.

good to rebuild the trust. A lot of what Mrs May talks about is all...

:11:32.:11:38.

It is talk and then a lot of it suddenly goes by the wayside. What

:11:39.:11:46.

happened to worker directors on the boards. It is designed to appeal to

:11:47.:11:51.

that constituency and then nothing happens. She had an excuse before in

:11:52.:11:56.

the sense that it wasn't in the 2015 manifesto and she had a small

:11:57.:12:00.

majority so therefore she arguably had to water down some of the stuff

:12:01.:12:04.

for example in her Tory conference speech, which had a lot of this

:12:05.:12:08.

active government material in it. If she puts it in the manifesto, it is

:12:09.:12:13.

a sign she plans to do it and will have no excuse if she then gets

:12:14.:12:17.

nervous afterwards because it will be in there. If it wasn't for

:12:18.:12:22.

Brexit, this great overwhelming issue, I think this election will be

:12:23.:12:26.

seen as quite a significant development in terms of an argument

:12:27.:12:31.

around the role of government, much-needed. But Brexit

:12:32.:12:36.

unfortunately overshadows it all. As much as we like our arguments over

:12:37.:12:40.

the role of government we will hear strong and stable, stable and strong

:12:41.:12:47.

ad nauseam, aren't we? Absolutely, and we heard the same old lines from

:12:48.:12:52.

the Labour Party as well so they are all at it. It will be a fascinating

:12:53.:12:59.

week, stop talking it down! Thanks to our panel.

:13:00.:13:01.

The Daily Politics will be back on BBC Two at noon

:13:02.:13:04.

I'll be back here at the same time on BBC One next Sunday.

:13:05.:13:08.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

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Andrew Neil and Julia George are joined by shadow business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey and Home Office minister Brandon Lewis to discuss the party manifestos for the forthcoming general election. Plus American political pollster Frank Luntz, and a chat with undecided voters in Leeds. Journalists Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards review the papers.