Browse content similar to 29/10/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning, everyone. | 0:00:37 | 0:00:39 | |
I'm Sarah Smith, and welcome
to The Sunday Politics, | 0:00:39 | 0:00:41 | |
where we always bring you everything
you need to know to understand | 0:00:41 | 0:00:44 | |
what's going on in politics. | 0:00:44 | 0:00:45 | |
Coming up on today's programme... | 0:00:45 | 0:00:49 | |
The Government says | 0:00:49 | 0:00:51 | |
the international trade minister
Mark Garnier will be investigated | 0:00:51 | 0:00:53 | |
following newspaper allegations
of inappropriate behaviour | 0:00:53 | 0:00:56 | |
towards a female staff member. | 0:00:56 | 0:00:58 | |
We'll have the latest. | 0:00:58 | 0:01:04 | |
The Prime Minister says she can
agree a deal with the EU and plenty | 0:01:04 | 0:01:07 | |
of time for Parliament to vote on it
before we leave in 2018. Well | 0:01:07 | 0:01:13 | |
Parliament play ball? New evidence
cast out on the economic | 0:01:13 | 0:01:21 | |
And in the South East: could a hard
Brexit bring our ferries, | 0:01:21 | 0:01:23 | |
planes and Eurotunnel services
to a grinding halt? | 0:01:23 | 0:01:28 | |
on from the abortion act white MPs
are lobbying the Home Secretary to | 0:01:29 | 0:01:31 | |
stop the alleged harassment of women
attending abortion clinics. | 0:01:31 | 0:01:38 | |
All that coming up in the programme. | 0:01:38 | 0:01:40 | |
And with me today to help make sense
of all the big stories, | 0:01:40 | 0:01:43 | |
Julia Hartley-Brewer,
Steve Richards and Anne McElvoy. | 0:01:43 | 0:01:47 | |
Some breaking news this morning. | 0:01:47 | 0:01:49 | |
The Government has announced
that it will investigate | 0:01:49 | 0:01:51 | |
whether the International Trade
Minister Mark Garnier broke | 0:01:51 | 0:01:53 | |
the Ministerial Code
following allegations | 0:01:53 | 0:01:55 | |
of inappropriate behaviour. | 0:01:55 | 0:02:00 | |
It comes after reports in the Mail
on Sunday which has spoken to one | 0:02:00 | 0:02:04 | |
of Mr Garnier's former employees. | 0:02:04 | 0:02:05 | |
News of the investigation
was announced by the Health | 0:02:05 | 0:02:07 | |
Secretary Jeremy Hunt
on the Andrew Marr show earlier. | 0:02:07 | 0:02:09 | |
The stories, if they are true,
are totally unacceptable | 0:02:09 | 0:02:13 | |
and the Cabinet Office will be
conducting an investigation | 0:02:13 | 0:02:15 | |
as to whether there has been
a breach of the ministerial code | 0:02:15 | 0:02:18 | |
in this particular case. | 0:02:18 | 0:02:19 | |
But as you know the
facts are disputed. | 0:02:19 | 0:02:21 | |
This is something that covers
behaviour by MPs of all parties | 0:02:21 | 0:02:24 | |
and that is why the other thing
that is going to happen | 0:02:24 | 0:02:27 | |
is that today Theresa May
is going to write to John Bercow, | 0:02:27 | 0:02:30 | |
the Speaker of the House of Commons,
to ask for his advice as to how | 0:02:30 | 0:02:34 | |
we change that culture. | 0:02:34 | 0:02:40 | |
That was Jeremy Hunt a little
earlier. I want to turn to the panel | 0:02:40 | 0:02:43 | |
to make sense of this news. This is
the government taking these | 0:02:43 | 0:02:48 | |
allegations quite seriously. What
has changed in this story is they | 0:02:48 | 0:02:52 | |
used to be a bit of delay while
people work out what they should say | 0:02:52 | 0:02:57 | |
about it, how seriously to take it.
As you see now a senior cabinet | 0:02:57 | 0:03:02 | |
member out there, Jeremy Hunt, with
an instant response. He does have | 0:03:02 | 0:03:06 | |
the worry of whether the facts are
disputed, but what they want to be | 0:03:06 | 0:03:10 | |
seen doing is to do something very
quickly. In the past they would say | 0:03:10 | 0:03:15 | |
it was all part of the rough and
tumble of Westminster. Mark Garnier | 0:03:15 | 0:03:20 | |
does not deny these stories, which
is that he asked an employee to buy | 0:03:20 | 0:03:24 | |
sex toys, but he said it was just
high jinks and it was taken out of | 0:03:24 | 0:03:28 | |
context. Is this the sort of thing
that a few years ago in a different | 0:03:28 | 0:03:32 | |
environment would be investigated?
Not necessarily quite the frenzy | 0:03:32 | 0:03:38 | |
that it is nowadays. The combination
of social media, all the Sunday | 0:03:38 | 0:03:46 | |
political programmes were ministers
have to go on armed with a response | 0:03:46 | 0:03:48 | |
means that you get these we have to
be seen to be doing something. That | 0:03:48 | 0:03:56 | |
means there is this Cabinet Office
investigation. You pointed out to us | 0:03:56 | 0:04:00 | |
before the programme that he was not
a minister before this happened. It | 0:04:00 | 0:04:04 | |
does not matter whether he says yes,
know I did this or did not, | 0:04:04 | 0:04:08 | |
something has to be seen to be done.
Clearly ministers today are being | 0:04:08 | 0:04:13 | |
armed with that bit of information
and that Theresa May will ask John | 0:04:13 | 0:04:17 | |
Bercow the speaker to look into the
whole culture of Parliament in this | 0:04:17 | 0:04:21 | |
context. That is the response to
this kind of frenzy. If we do live | 0:04:21 | 0:04:27 | |
in an environment where something
has to be seen to be done, does that | 0:04:27 | 0:04:30 | |
always mean the right thing gets
done? Absolutely not. We are in | 0:04:30 | 0:04:36 | |
witch hunt territory. All of us work
in the Commons over many years and | 0:04:36 | 0:04:40 | |
anyone would think it was a scene
out of Benny Hill or a carry on | 0:04:40 | 0:04:45 | |
film. Sadly it is not that much fun
and it is rather dull and dreary. | 0:04:45 | 0:04:50 | |
Yes, there are sex pests, yes, there
is sexual harassment, but the idea | 0:04:50 | 0:04:55 | |
this is going on on a huge scale is
nonsense. Doesn't matter whether it | 0:04:55 | 0:04:59 | |
is a huge scale or not? Or just a
few instances? Any workplace where | 0:04:59 | 0:05:06 | |
you have the mixing of work and
social so intertwined and you throw | 0:05:06 | 0:05:11 | |
a huge amount of alcohol and late
night and people living away from | 0:05:11 | 0:05:14 | |
home you will have this happen. That
does not make it OK. It makes sexual | 0:05:14 | 0:05:21 | |
harassment not OK as it is not
anywhere. This happens to men as | 0:05:21 | 0:05:25 | |
well and if they have an issue into
it there are employment tribunal 's | 0:05:25 | 0:05:30 | |
and they can contact lawyers. I do
not think this should be a matter of | 0:05:30 | 0:05:34 | |
the speaker, it should be someone
completely independent of any party. | 0:05:34 | 0:05:40 | |
People think MPs are employees of
the party or the Commons, they are | 0:05:40 | 0:05:45 | |
not. Because they are self-employed
to whom do you go if you are a | 0:05:45 | 0:05:48 | |
researcher? That has to be
clarified. I agree you need a much | 0:05:48 | 0:05:54 | |
clearer line of reporting. It was a
bit like the situation when we came | 0:05:54 | 0:06:00 | |
into the media many years ago, the
Punic wars in my case! You were not | 0:06:00 | 0:06:05 | |
quite sure who to go to. If you work
worried that it might impede your | 0:06:05 | 0:06:13 | |
career, and you had to talk to
people who work next to you, that is | 0:06:13 | 0:06:18 | |
just one example, but in the Commons
people do not know who they should | 0:06:18 | 0:06:22 | |
go to. Where Theresa May might be
making a mistake, it is the same | 0:06:22 | 0:06:26 | |
mistake when it was decided to
investigate through Levinson the | 0:06:26 | 0:06:30 | |
culture of the media which was like
nailing jelly to a wall. Look at the | 0:06:30 | 0:06:36 | |
culture of anybody's job and the
environment they are in and there is | 0:06:36 | 0:06:39 | |
usually a lot wrong with it. When
you try and make it general, they | 0:06:39 | 0:06:44 | |
are not trying to blame individuals,
or it say they need a better line on | 0:06:44 | 0:06:50 | |
reporting of sexual harassment,
which I support, the Commons is a | 0:06:50 | 0:06:54 | |
funny place and it is a rough old
trade and you are never going to | 0:06:54 | 0:06:58 | |
iron out the human foibles of that.
Diane Abbott was talking about this | 0:06:58 | 0:07:02 | |
earlier. | 0:07:02 | 0:07:06 | |
When I first went into Parliament so
many of those men had been to all | 0:07:06 | 0:07:10 | |
boys boarding schools and had really
difficult attitudes towards women. | 0:07:10 | 0:07:17 | |
The world has moved on and
middle-aged women are less likely | 0:07:17 | 0:07:21 | |
than middle-aged men to believe that
young research are irresistibly | 0:07:21 | 0:07:30 | |
attracted to them. We have seen the
issues and we have seen one of our | 0:07:30 | 0:07:36 | |
colleagues been suspended for quite
unacceptable language. | 0:07:36 | 0:07:42 | |
That is a point, Jarrod O'Mara, a
Labour MP who has had the whip | 0:07:42 | 0:07:46 | |
suspended, this goes across all
parties. The idea that there is a | 0:07:46 | 0:07:51 | |
left or right divide over this is
absurd. This is a cultural issue. In | 0:07:51 | 0:07:56 | |
the media and in a lot of other
institutions if this is going to | 0:07:56 | 0:08:01 | |
develop politically, the frenzy will
carry on for a bit and other names | 0:08:01 | 0:08:05 | |
will come out over the next few
days, not just the two we have | 0:08:05 | 0:08:09 | |
mentioned so far in politics. But it
also raises questions about how | 0:08:09 | 0:08:16 | |
candidates are selected for example.
There has been a huge pressure for | 0:08:16 | 0:08:21 | |
the centre to keep out of things. I
bet from now on there will be much | 0:08:21 | 0:08:26 | |
greater scrutiny of all candidates
and tweets will have to be looked at | 0:08:26 | 0:08:30 | |
and all the rest of it. Selecting
candidates is interesting. Miriam | 0:08:30 | 0:08:37 | |
Gonzalez, Nick Clegg's wife, says
that during that election they knew | 0:08:37 | 0:08:41 | |
about Jarrod O'Mara and the Lib Dems
knew about it, so it is difficult to | 0:08:41 | 0:08:46 | |
suggest the Labour Party did not as
well. There is very clear evidence | 0:08:46 | 0:08:52 | |
the Labour Party did know. But we
are in a situation of how perfect | 0:08:52 | 0:08:56 | |
and well-behaved does everyone have
to be? If you look at past American | 0:08:56 | 0:09:03 | |
presidents, JFK and Bill Clinton,
these men were sex pest | 0:09:03 | 0:09:07 | |
extraordinaire, with totally
inappropriate behaviour on a regular | 0:09:07 | 0:09:10 | |
basis. There are things you are not
allowed to say if you are feminists. | 0:09:10 | 0:09:15 | |
Young women are really attracted to
powerful men. I was busted for the | 0:09:15 | 0:09:20 | |
idea that there are young women in
the House of commons who are | 0:09:20 | 0:09:24 | |
throwing themselves at middle-aged,
potbellied, balding, older men. We | 0:09:24 | 0:09:31 | |
need to focus on the right things.
When it is unwanted, harassing, | 0:09:31 | 0:09:37 | |
inappropriate and criminal,
absolutely, you come down like a | 0:09:37 | 0:09:40 | |
tonne of bricks. It is not just
because there are more women in the | 0:09:40 | 0:09:44 | |
Commons, it is because there are
more men married to women like us. | 0:09:44 | 0:09:48 | |
We have to leave it there. | 0:09:48 | 0:09:51 | |
As attention turns in
Westminster to the hundreds | 0:09:51 | 0:09:53 | |
of amendments put down on the EU
Withdrawal Bill, David Davis has | 0:09:53 | 0:09:56 | |
caused a stir this week by saying
it's possible Parliament won't get | 0:09:56 | 0:09:59 | |
a vote on the Brexit deal
until after March 2019 - | 0:09:59 | 0:10:02 | |
when the clock runs out
and we leave the EU. | 0:10:02 | 0:10:04 | |
Let's take a look at how
the controversy played out. | 0:10:04 | 0:10:06 | |
And which point do you envisage
Parliament having a vote? | 0:10:06 | 0:10:11 | |
As soon as possible thereafter. | 0:10:11 | 0:10:12 | |
This Parliament? | 0:10:12 | 0:10:15 | |
As soon as possible
possible thereafter, yeah. | 0:10:15 | 0:10:17 | |
As soon as possible thereafter. | 0:10:17 | 0:10:18 | |
So, the vote in Parliament... | 0:10:18 | 0:10:20 | |
The other thing... | 0:10:20 | 0:10:21 | |
Could be after March 2019? | 0:10:21 | 0:10:22 | |
It could be, yeah, it could be. | 0:10:22 | 0:10:24 | |
The... | 0:10:24 | 0:10:26 | |
It depends when it concludes. | 0:10:26 | 0:10:27 | |
Mr Barnier, remember,
has said he'd like... | 0:10:27 | 0:10:29 | |
Sorry, the vote of our Parliament,
the UK Parliament, could be | 0:10:29 | 0:10:32 | |
after March 2019? | 0:10:32 | 0:10:33 | |
Yes, it could be. | 0:10:33 | 0:10:35 | |
Could be. | 0:10:35 | 0:10:37 | |
The thing to member... | 0:10:37 | 0:10:38 | |
Which would be... | 0:10:38 | 0:10:40 | |
Well, it can't come
before we have the deal. | 0:10:40 | 0:10:42 | |
You said that it is POSSIBLE that
Parliament night not vote | 0:10:42 | 0:10:45 | |
on the deal until AFTER
the end of March 2019. | 0:10:45 | 0:10:48 | |
I'm summarising correctly
what you said...? | 0:10:48 | 0:10:50 | |
Yeah, that's correct. | 0:10:50 | 0:10:51 | |
In the event we don't do
the deal until then, yeah. | 0:10:51 | 0:10:54 | |
Can the Prime Minister please
explain how it's possible | 0:10:54 | 0:10:56 | |
to have a meaningful vote
on something that's | 0:10:56 | 0:10:58 | |
already taken place? | 0:10:58 | 0:11:03 | |
As the honourable gentleman knows,
we're in negotiations | 0:11:03 | 0:11:06 | |
with the European Union, but I am
confident that the timetable under | 0:11:06 | 0:11:09 | |
the Lisbon Treaty does give time
until March 2019 | 0:11:09 | 0:11:13 | |
for the negotiations to take place. | 0:11:13 | 0:11:15 | |
But I'm confident, because it is in
the interests of both sides, | 0:11:15 | 0:11:18 | |
it's not just this Parliament that
wants to have a vote on that deal, | 0:11:18 | 0:11:21 | |
but actually there will be
ratification by other parliaments, | 0:11:21 | 0:11:23 | |
that we will be able to achieve that
agreement and that negotiation | 0:11:23 | 0:11:28 | |
in time for this Parliament
to have a vote that we committed to. | 0:11:28 | 0:11:32 | |
We are working to reach
an agreement on the final deal | 0:11:32 | 0:11:34 | |
in good time before we leave
the European Union in March 2019. | 0:11:34 | 0:11:37 | |
Clearly, we cannot say
for certain at this stage | 0:11:37 | 0:11:39 | |
when this will be agreed. | 0:11:39 | 0:11:41 | |
But as Michel Barnier said,
he hopes to get a draft deal | 0:11:41 | 0:11:44 | |
agreed by October 2018,
and that's our aim is well. | 0:11:44 | 0:11:49 | |
agreed by October 2018,
and that's our aim as well. | 0:11:49 | 0:11:53 | |
I'm joined now by the former
Shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary | 0:11:53 | 0:11:55 | |
Benn, who is the chair
of the Commons Brexit Committee, | 0:11:55 | 0:11:57 | |
which David Davis was
giving evidence to. | 0:11:57 | 0:12:01 | |
Good morning. When you think a
parliamentary vote should take place | 0:12:01 | 0:12:07 | |
in order for it to be meaningful? It
has to be before we leave the | 0:12:07 | 0:12:12 | |
European Union. Michel Barnier said
at the start of the negotiations | 0:12:12 | 0:12:15 | |
that he wants to wrap them up by
October of next year, so we have | 0:12:15 | 0:12:20 | |
only got 12 months left, the clock
is ticking and there is a huge | 0:12:20 | 0:12:23 | |
amount of ground to cover. You do
not think there is any point in | 0:12:23 | 0:12:27 | |
having the vote the week before we
leave because you could then not go | 0:12:27 | 0:12:38 | |
and re-negotiate? That would not be
acceptable. We will not be given a | 0:12:38 | 0:12:41 | |
bit of paper and told to take it or
leave it. But the following day | 0:12:41 | 0:12:44 | |
Steve Baker, also a minister in the
department, told our committee that | 0:12:44 | 0:12:47 | |
the government now accepts that in
order to implement transitional | 0:12:47 | 0:12:51 | |
arrangements that it is seeking, it
will need separate legislation. I | 0:12:51 | 0:12:55 | |
put the question to him if you are
going to need separate legislation | 0:12:55 | 0:12:59 | |
to do that, why don't you have a
separate bill to implement the | 0:12:59 | 0:13:03 | |
withdrawal agreement rather than
seeking to use the powers the | 0:13:03 | 0:13:06 | |
government is proposing to take in
the EU withdrawal bill. If we stick | 0:13:06 | 0:13:11 | |
to the timing, you have said you do
not think it is possible to | 0:13:11 | 0:13:15 | |
negotiate a trade deal in the next
12 months. You say the only people | 0:13:15 | 0:13:19 | |
who think that is possible British
ministers. If you do not believe we | 0:13:19 | 0:13:24 | |
can get a deal negotiated, how can
we get a vote on it in 12 months' | 0:13:24 | 0:13:29 | |
time? If things go well, and there
is still a risk of no agreement | 0:13:29 | 0:13:33 | |
which would be disastrous for the
economy and the country, if | 0:13:33 | 0:13:47 | |
things go there will be a deal on
the divorce issues, there will be a | 0:13:52 | 0:13:55 | |
deal on the nature of the
transitional arrangement and the | 0:13:55 | 0:13:57 | |
government is to set out how it
thinks that will work, and then an | 0:13:57 | 0:14:00 | |
agreement between the UK and the 27
member states saying, we will now | 0:14:00 | 0:14:03 | |
negotiate a new trade and market
access arrangement, and new | 0:14:03 | 0:14:05 | |
association agreement between the
two parties, and that will be done | 0:14:05 | 0:14:07 | |
in the transition period. Parliament
will be voting in those | 0:14:07 | 0:14:09 | |
circumstances on a deal which leads
to the door being open. But we would | 0:14:09 | 0:14:14 | |
be outside the EU at that point, so
how meaningful can vote be where you | 0:14:14 | 0:14:19 | |
take it or leave it if we have
already left the EU? Surely this has | 0:14:19 | 0:14:24 | |
to happen before March 2019 for it
to make a difference? I do not think | 0:14:24 | 0:14:30 | |
it is possible to negotiate all of
the issues that will need to be | 0:14:30 | 0:14:34 | |
covered in the time available. Then
it is not possible to have a | 0:14:34 | 0:14:39 | |
meaningful vote on it? Parliament
will have to have a look at the deal | 0:14:39 | 0:14:50 | |
presented to it. It is likely to be
a mix agreement so the approval | 0:14:50 | 0:14:53 | |
process in the rest of Europe,
unlike the Article 50 agreement, | 0:14:53 | 0:14:55 | |
which will be a majority vote in the
European Parliament and in the | 0:14:55 | 0:14:58 | |
British Parliament, every single
Parliament will have a vote on it, | 0:14:58 | 0:15:01 | |
so it will be a more complex process
anyway, but I do not think that is | 0:15:01 | 0:15:06 | |
the time to get all of that sorted
between now and October next year. | 0:15:06 | 0:15:12 | |
Whether it is before or after we
have left the EU, the government | 0:15:12 | 0:15:16 | |
have said it is a take it or leave
it option and it is the Noel Edmonds | 0:15:16 | 0:15:21 | |
option, deal or no Deal, you say yes
or no to it. You cannot send them | 0:15:21 | 0:15:28 | |
back to re-negotiate. | 0:15:28 | 0:15:32 | |
If it is a separate piece of
legislation, when Parliament has a | 0:15:32 | 0:15:38 | |
chance to shape the nature of that
legislation. But it can't change | 0:15:38 | 0:15:43 | |
what has been negotiated with the
EU? Well, you could say to the | 0:15:43 | 0:15:47 | |
government, we're happy with this
but was not happy about that chukka | 0:15:47 | 0:15:52 | |
here's some fresh instructions, go
back in and... It seems to me what | 0:15:52 | 0:15:57 | |
they want is the maximum access to
the single market for the lowest | 0:15:57 | 0:16:01 | |
possible tariffs, whilst able to
control migration. If they've got to | 0:16:01 | 0:16:06 | |
get the best deal that they can on
that, how on earth is the Labour | 0:16:06 | 0:16:10 | |
Party, saying we want a bit more,
owing to persuade the other 27? We | 0:16:10 | 0:16:14 | |
certainly don't want the lowest
possible tariffs, we want no tariffs | 0:16:14 | 0:16:18 | |
are taught. My personal view is
that, has made a profound mistake in | 0:16:18 | 0:16:22 | |
deciding that it wants to leave the
customs union. If you want to help | 0:16:22 | 0:16:28 | |
deal with the very serious question
of the border between Northern | 0:16:28 | 0:16:32 | |
Ireland and the Republic of Ireland,
the way you do that is to stay in | 0:16:32 | 0:16:36 | |
the customs union and I hope, will
change its mind. But the Labour | 0:16:36 | 0:16:41 | |
Party is simply saying in the House
of Commons, we want a better deal | 0:16:41 | 0:16:44 | |
than what, has been able to get? It
depends how the negotiations unfold. | 0:16:44 | 0:16:52 | |
, has ended up on the transitional
arrangements in the place that Keir | 0:16:52 | 0:16:57 | |
Starmer set out on behalf of the
shadow cabinet in August, when he | 0:16:57 | 0:17:03 | |
said, we will need to stay in the
single market and the customs union | 0:17:03 | 0:17:06 | |
for the duration of the transition,
and I think that is the position, | 0:17:06 | 0:17:09 | |
has now reached. It has not been
helped by differences of view within | 0:17:09 | 0:17:14 | |
the Cabinet, and a lot of time has
passed and there's proved time left | 0:17:14 | 0:17:18 | |
and we have not even got on to the
negotiations. -- there's very little | 0:17:18 | 0:17:23 | |
time left. On phase two, the labour
Party have set out six clear tests, | 0:17:23 | 0:17:29 | |
and two of them are crucial. You say
you want the exact same benefits we | 0:17:29 | 0:17:34 | |
currently have in the customs union
but you also want to be able to | 0:17:34 | 0:17:38 | |
ensure the fair migration to control
immigration, basically, which does | 0:17:38 | 0:17:42 | |
sound a bit like having your cake
and eating it. You say that you will | 0:17:42 | 0:17:45 | |
vote against any deal that doesn't
give you all of that, the exact same | 0:17:45 | 0:17:49 | |
benefits of the single market, and
allowing you to control migration. | 0:17:49 | 0:17:53 | |
But you say no deal would be
catastrophic if so it seems to me | 0:17:53 | 0:17:57 | |
you're unlikely to get the deal that
you could vote for but you don't | 0:17:57 | 0:18:00 | |
want to vote for no deal? We
absolutely don't want a no deal. | 0:18:00 | 0:18:05 | |
Businesses have sent a letter to the
Prime Minister saying that a | 0:18:05 | 0:18:11 | |
transition is essential because the
possibility of a no deal and no | 0:18:11 | 0:18:14 | |
transitional would be very damaging
for the economy. We fought the | 0:18:14 | 0:18:17 | |
general election on a policy of
seeking to retain the benefits of | 0:18:17 | 0:18:20 | |
the single market and the customs
union. Keir Starmer said on behalf | 0:18:20 | 0:18:24 | |
of the shadow government that as far
as the longer term arrangements are | 0:18:24 | 0:18:29 | |
concerned, that should leave all
options on the table, because it is | 0:18:29 | 0:18:32 | |
the end that you're trying to
achieve and you then find the means | 0:18:32 | 0:18:36 | |
to support it. So we're setting out
very clearly those tests. If you | 0:18:36 | 0:18:41 | |
were to vote down an agreement
because it did not meet your tests, | 0:18:41 | 0:18:44 | |
and there was time to send, back to
the EU to get a better deal, then | 0:18:44 | 0:18:50 | |
you would have significantly
weakened their negotiating hand | 0:18:50 | 0:18:52 | |
chukka that doesn't help them? I
don't think, has deployed its | 0:18:52 | 0:18:56 | |
negotiating hand very strongly thus
far. Because we had a general | 0:18:56 | 0:19:01 | |
election which meant that we lost
time that we would have used for | 0:19:01 | 0:19:04 | |
negotiating. We still don't know
what kind of long-term trade and | 0:19:04 | 0:19:08 | |
market access deal, wants. The Prime
Minister says, I don't want a deal | 0:19:08 | 0:19:15 | |
like Canada and I don't want a deal
like the European Economic Area. But | 0:19:15 | 0:19:19 | |
we still don't know what kind of
deal they want. With about 12 months | 0:19:19 | 0:19:23 | |
to go, the other thing, needs to do
is to set out very clearly above all | 0:19:23 | 0:19:27 | |
for the benefit of the other 27
European countries, what kind of | 0:19:27 | 0:19:32 | |
deal it wants. When I travel to
Europe and talk to those involved in | 0:19:32 | 0:19:35 | |
the negotiations, you see other
leaders saying, we don't actually | 0:19:35 | 0:19:40 | |
know what Britain wants. With a year
to go it is about time we made that | 0:19:40 | 0:19:44 | |
clear. One related question on the
European Union - you spoke in your | 0:19:44 | 0:19:50 | |
famous speech in Syria about the
international brigades in Spain, and | 0:19:50 | 0:19:54 | |
I wonder if your solidarity with
them leads you to think that the UK | 0:19:54 | 0:19:58 | |
Government should be recognising
Catalonia is an independent state? | 0:19:58 | 0:20:01 | |
No, I don't think so. It is a very
difficult and potentially dangerous | 0:20:01 | 0:20:06 | |
situation in Catalonia at the
moment. Direct rule from Madrid is | 0:20:06 | 0:20:11 | |
not a long-term solution. There
needs to be a negotiation, and | 0:20:11 | 0:20:16 | |
elections will give Catalonia the
chance to take that decision, but I | 0:20:16 | 0:20:20 | |
am not clear what the declaration of
independence actually means. Are | 0:20:20 | 0:20:27 | |
they going to be borders, is they're
going to be an army? There will have | 0:20:27 | 0:20:31 | |
to be some agreement. Catalonia has
already had a high degree of | 0:20:31 | 0:20:34 | |
autonomy. It may like some more, and
it seems to me if you look at the | 0:20:34 | 0:20:39 | |
experience here in the United
Kingdom, that is the way to go, not | 0:20:39 | 0:20:44 | |
a constitutional stand-off. And I
really hope nobody is charged with | 0:20:44 | 0:20:47 | |
rebellion, because actually that
would make matters worse. | 0:20:47 | 0:20:51 | |
Now, the Government has this
week reopened the public | 0:20:51 | 0:20:55 | |
consultation on plans for a third
runway at Heathrow. | 0:20:55 | 0:20:58 | |
While ministers are clear
the £18 billion project | 0:20:58 | 0:21:00 | |
is still the preferred option,
new data raises further questions | 0:21:00 | 0:21:02 | |
about the environmental
impact of expansion, | 0:21:02 | 0:21:03 | |
and offers an improved
economic case for a second | 0:21:03 | 0:21:05 | |
runway at Gatwick instead. | 0:21:05 | 0:21:07 | |
So, with opponents on all sides
of the Commons, does the Government | 0:21:07 | 0:21:10 | |
still have the votes to get
the plans off the ground? | 0:21:10 | 0:21:12 | |
Here's Elizabeth Glinka. | 0:21:12 | 0:21:21 | |
The debate over the expansion
of Heathrow has been | 0:21:25 | 0:21:28 | |
going on for decades. | 0:21:28 | 0:21:29 | |
Plans for a third runway
were first introduced | 0:21:29 | 0:21:31 | |
by the Labour government in 2003. | 0:21:31 | 0:21:33 | |
Then, after spending millions
of pounds, finally, in 2015, | 0:21:33 | 0:21:37 | |
the airport commission recommended
that those plans go ahead, | 0:21:37 | 0:21:42 | |
and the government position
appeared to be fixed. | 0:21:42 | 0:21:45 | |
But, of course, since then,
we've had a general election. | 0:21:45 | 0:21:48 | |
The Government have lost
their Commons majority. | 0:21:48 | 0:21:52 | |
And with opposition on both front
benches, the Parliamentary | 0:21:52 | 0:21:55 | |
arithmetic looks a little bit up
in the air. | 0:21:55 | 0:21:59 | |
A lot has changed since the airport
commission produced its report, | 0:21:59 | 0:22:02 | |
and that don't forget
was the bedrock for the Government's | 0:22:02 | 0:22:05 | |
decision, that's why the government
supposedly made the decision | 0:22:05 | 0:22:07 | |
that it made. | 0:22:07 | 0:22:08 | |
But most of the assumptions
made in that report have | 0:22:08 | 0:22:11 | |
been undermined since,
by data on passenger numbers, | 0:22:11 | 0:22:13 | |
on economic benefits, and more
than anything, on pollution. | 0:22:13 | 0:22:16 | |
There's demand from international
carriers to get into Heathrow. | 0:22:16 | 0:22:19 | |
More and more people want to fly. | 0:22:19 | 0:22:22 | |
And after the referendum,
connectivity post-Brexit | 0:22:22 | 0:22:25 | |
is going to be absolutely critical
to the UK economy, so if anything, | 0:22:25 | 0:22:28 | |
I think the case is stronger
for expansion at Heathrow. | 0:22:28 | 0:22:34 | |
A vote on expansion had been due
to take place this summer. | 0:22:34 | 0:22:37 | |
But with Westminster somewhat
distracted, that didn't happen. | 0:22:37 | 0:22:39 | |
Now, fresh data means
the Government has had to reopen | 0:22:39 | 0:22:42 | |
the public consultation. | 0:22:42 | 0:22:48 | |
But it maintains the case
for Heathrow is as strong as ever, | 0:22:48 | 0:22:51 | |
delivering benefits of up
to £74 billion to the wider economy. | 0:22:51 | 0:22:56 | |
And in any case, the Government
says, action must be taken, | 0:22:56 | 0:22:59 | |
as all five of London's airports
will be completely | 0:22:59 | 0:23:03 | |
full by the mid-2030s. | 0:23:03 | 0:23:08 | |
Still, the new research does cast
an alternative expansion at Gatwick | 0:23:08 | 0:23:10 | |
in a more favourable economic light,
while showing Heathrow | 0:23:10 | 0:23:14 | |
is now less likely to meet
its environmental targets. | 0:23:14 | 0:23:22 | |
Campaigners like these in Hounslow
sense the wind is shifting. | 0:23:22 | 0:23:26 | |
We're feeling encouraged,
because we see all kinds | 0:23:26 | 0:23:29 | |
of weaknesses in the argument. | 0:23:29 | 0:23:31 | |
Certainly, quite a few MPs,
I think certainly Labour MPs, | 0:23:31 | 0:23:34 | |
are beginning to think perhaps it's
not such a great idea | 0:23:34 | 0:23:37 | |
to have a third runway. | 0:23:37 | 0:23:39 | |
Their MP is convinced colleagues
can now be persuaded | 0:23:39 | 0:23:41 | |
to see things their way. | 0:23:41 | 0:23:44 | |
The Labour Party quite
rightly set four key tests | 0:23:44 | 0:23:46 | |
for a third runway at Heathrow. | 0:23:46 | 0:23:49 | |
And in my view,
Heathrow is not able... | 0:23:49 | 0:23:52 | |
The Heathrow option is not able
to pass any of those. | 0:23:52 | 0:23:56 | |
So, I see a lot of colleagues
in the Labour Party around | 0:23:56 | 0:23:59 | |
the country beginning
to think twice. | 0:23:59 | 0:24:01 | |
And if you look at the cross-party
MPs supportin this anti-Heathrow | 0:24:01 | 0:24:07 | |
And if you look at the cross-party
MPs supporting this anti-Heathrow | 0:24:07 | 0:24:10 | |
protest this week, you will see
some familiar faces. | 0:24:10 | 0:24:12 | |
You know my position -
as the constituency MP, | 0:24:12 | 0:24:15 | |
I'm totally opposed. | 0:24:15 | 0:24:16 | |
I think this is another indication
of just the difficulties | 0:24:16 | 0:24:19 | |
the Government have got off
of implementing this policy. | 0:24:19 | 0:24:21 | |
I don't think it's going to happen,
I just don't think | 0:24:21 | 0:24:23 | |
it's going to happen. | 0:24:23 | 0:24:24 | |
So, if some on the Labour
front bench are, shall | 0:24:24 | 0:24:27 | |
we say, not supportive,
what about the other side? | 0:24:27 | 0:24:30 | |
In a free vote, we could have had up
to 60 Conservative MPs | 0:24:30 | 0:24:33 | |
voting against expansion,
that's the number that is normally | 0:24:33 | 0:24:35 | |
used and I think it's right. | 0:24:35 | 0:24:36 | |
In the circumstances where it
requires an active rebellion, | 0:24:36 | 0:24:38 | |
the numbers would be fewer. | 0:24:38 | 0:24:40 | |
I can't tell you what that
number is, but I can tell | 0:24:40 | 0:24:43 | |
you that there are people right
the way through the party, | 0:24:43 | 0:24:46 | |
from the backbenches
to the heart of the government, | 0:24:46 | 0:24:48 | |
who will vote against
Heathrow expansion. | 0:24:48 | 0:24:49 | |
And yet the SNP, whose Commons
votes could prove vital, | 0:24:49 | 0:24:53 | |
are behind the Heathrow plan,
which promises more | 0:24:53 | 0:24:55 | |
connecting flights. | 0:24:55 | 0:24:56 | |
And other supporters are convinced
they have the numbers. | 0:24:56 | 0:25:00 | |
There is a majority of members
of Parliament that support Heathrow | 0:25:00 | 0:25:03 | |
expansion, and when that is put
to the test, whenever that will be, | 0:25:03 | 0:25:06 | |
I think that will be
clearly demonstrated. | 0:25:06 | 0:25:08 | |
Any vote on this issue
won't come until next summer. | 0:25:08 | 0:25:10 | |
For both sides, yet more time
to argue about weather | 0:25:10 | 0:25:13 | |
the plans should take off
or be permanently grounded. | 0:25:13 | 0:25:20 | |
Elizabeth Glinka there. | 0:25:24 | 0:25:25 | |
And I'm joined now by the former
Cabinet minister Theresa Villiers, | 0:25:25 | 0:25:28 | |
who oversaw aviation policy
as a transport minister | 0:25:28 | 0:25:30 | |
under David Cameron. | 0:25:30 | 0:25:37 | |
Thanks for coming in. You have made
your opposition to a third runway at | 0:25:37 | 0:25:42 | |
Heathrow consistently clear. , have
reopened this consultation but it is | 0:25:42 | 0:25:46 | |
still clearly their preferred
option? It is but what I have always | 0:25:46 | 0:25:50 | |
asked is, why try to build a new
runway at Heathrow when you can | 0:25:50 | 0:25:53 | |
build one at Gatwick in half the
time, for half the cost and with a | 0:25:53 | 0:25:56 | |
tiny fraction of the environment
will cost average is that true, | 0:25:56 | 0:26:00 | |
though? Private finance is already
to go at Heathrow, because that's | 0:26:00 | 0:26:04 | |
where people want to do it and
that's where the private backers | 0:26:04 | 0:26:07 | |
want to put it. It would take much
longer to get the private finance | 0:26:07 | 0:26:11 | |
for Gatwick? Part of that private
finance is passengers of the future, | 0:26:11 | 0:26:16 | |
but also, the costs of the surface
transport needed to expand Heathrow | 0:26:16 | 0:26:21 | |
is phenomenal. I mean, TfL estimates
vary between £10 billion and £15 | 0:26:21 | 0:26:29 | |
billion. And there's no suggestion
that those private backers are going | 0:26:29 | 0:26:32 | |
to meet those costs. So, this is a
hugely expensive project as well as | 0:26:32 | 0:26:37 | |
one which will create very
significant damage. Heathrow is | 0:26:37 | 0:26:41 | |
ultimately where passengers and
airlines want to go to, isn't it? | 0:26:41 | 0:26:44 | |
Every slot is practically full.
Every time a new one comes up, it is | 0:26:44 | 0:26:49 | |
up immediately, it's a very popular
airport. Gatwick is not where they | 0:26:49 | 0:26:54 | |
want to go? There are many airlines
and passengers who do want to fly | 0:26:54 | 0:26:58 | |
from Gatwick, and all the forecasts
indicate that a new runway there | 0:26:58 | 0:27:02 | |
would be full of planes very
rapidly. But I think the key thing | 0:27:02 | 0:27:06 | |
is that successive elements have
said, technology will deliver a way | 0:27:06 | 0:27:11 | |
to resolve the around noise and air
quality. I don't have any confidence | 0:27:11 | 0:27:17 | |
that science has demonstrated that
technology will deliver those | 0:27:17 | 0:27:21 | |
solutions to these very serious
environmental limbs which have | 0:27:21 | 0:27:26 | |
stopped Heathrow expansion for
decades. Jim Fitzpatrick in the film | 0:27:26 | 0:27:28 | |
was mentioning that people think
there is a need for even more | 0:27:28 | 0:27:33 | |
collectivity in Britain post-Brexit.
We know that business has been | 0:27:33 | 0:27:36 | |
crying out for more routes, they
really think it hurts business | 0:27:36 | 0:27:40 | |
expansion that we don't get on with
this. More consultation is just | 0:27:40 | 0:27:44 | |
going to lead to more delay, isn't
it? This is a hugely controversial | 0:27:44 | 0:27:48 | |
decision. There is a reason why
people have been talking about | 0:27:48 | 0:27:51 | |
expanding Heathrow for 50 years and
it is never happened, it's because | 0:27:51 | 0:27:54 | |
it's a bad idea. So, inevitably the
legal processes are very complex. | 0:27:54 | 0:27:59 | |
One of my anxieties about, pursuing
this option is that potentially it | 0:27:59 | 0:28:04 | |
means another lost decade for
airport expansion. Because the | 0:28:04 | 0:28:07 | |
problems with Heathrow expansion are
so serious, I believe that's one of | 0:28:07 | 0:28:13 | |
the reasons why I advocated, anyone
who wants a new runway in the | 0:28:13 | 0:28:16 | |
south-east should be backing Gatwick
is a much more deliverable option. | 0:28:16 | 0:28:20 | |
Let me move on to Brexit. We were
talking with Hilary Benn about a | 0:28:20 | 0:28:26 | |
meaningful vote being given to the
House of Commons chukka how | 0:28:26 | 0:28:29 | |
important do you think that is? Of
course the Commons will vote on | 0:28:29 | 0:28:32 | |
this. The Commons is going to vote
on this many, many times. We have | 0:28:32 | 0:28:38 | |
also had a hugely important vote not
only in the referendum on the 23rd | 0:28:38 | 0:28:41 | |
of June but also on Article 50. But
will that vote allow any changes to | 0:28:41 | 0:28:45 | |
it? Hilary Benn seemed to think that
the Commons would be able to shape | 0:28:45 | 0:28:51 | |
the deal with the vote. But actually
is it going to be, saying, take it | 0:28:51 | 0:28:55 | |
or leave it at all what we have
negotiated? Our Prime Minister | 0:28:55 | 0:29:00 | |
negotiates on our behalf
internationally. It's | 0:29:00 | 0:29:05 | |
well-established precedent that
after an agreement is reached | 0:29:05 | 0:29:07 | |
overseas, then it is considered in
the House of Commons. What if it was | 0:29:07 | 0:29:13 | |
voted down in the House of Commons?
Well, the legal effect of that would | 0:29:13 | 0:29:17 | |
be that we left the European Union
without any kind of deal, because | 0:29:17 | 0:29:20 | |
the key decision was on the voting
of Article 50 as an irreversible | 0:29:20 | 0:29:25 | |
decision. Is it irreversible,
though? We understand, may have had | 0:29:25 | 0:29:30 | |
legal advice saying that Yukon
stopped the clock on Article 50. | 0:29:30 | 0:29:34 | |
Would it not be possible if the
Commons voted against to ask the | 0:29:34 | 0:29:38 | |
European Union for a little bit more
time to try and renegotiate? There | 0:29:38 | 0:29:41 | |
is a debate about the reversibility
of Article 50. But the key point is | 0:29:41 | 0:29:49 | |
that we are all working for a good
deal for the United Kingdom and the | 0:29:49 | 0:29:55 | |
I'm concerned that some of the
amendments to the legislation are | 0:29:55 | 0:29:59 | |
not about the nature of the deal at
the end of the process, they're just | 0:29:59 | 0:30:02 | |
about frustrating the process. I
think that would be wrong. I think | 0:30:02 | 0:30:09 | |
we should respect the result of the
referendum. Will it be by next | 0:30:09 | 0:30:12 | |
summer, so there is time for
Parliament and for other | 0:30:12 | 0:30:15 | |
parliaments? I certainly hope that
we get that agreement between the | 0:30:15 | 0:30:18 | |
two sides, and the recent European
summit seemed to indicate a | 0:30:18 | 0:30:23 | |
willingness from the European side
to be constructive. But one point | 0:30:23 | 0:30:27 | |
where I think Hilary Benn has a
point, if we do secure agreement on | 0:30:27 | 0:30:31 | |
a transitional deal, that does
potentially give us more time to | 0:30:31 | 0:30:34 | |
work on the details of a trade
agreement. I hope we get as much as | 0:30:34 | 0:30:39 | |
possible in place before exit day.
But filling out some of that detail | 0:30:39 | 0:30:43 | |
is made easier if we can secure that
two-year transitional deal. | 0:30:43 | 0:30:51 | |
That is interesting because a lot of
Brexiteers what the deal to be done | 0:30:51 | 0:30:58 | |
by the inflammation period, it is
not a time for that. I fully | 0:30:58 | 0:31:06 | |
recognise we need compromise, I am
keen to work with people across my | 0:31:06 | 0:31:11 | |
party in terms of spectrum of
opinion, and with other parties as | 0:31:11 | 0:31:14 | |
well to ensure we get the best
outcome. Let me ask you briefly | 0:31:14 | 0:31:19 | |
before you go about the possible
culture of sexual harassment in the | 0:31:19 | 0:31:23 | |
House of commons and Theresa May
will write to the Speaker of the | 0:31:23 | 0:31:29 | |
House of Commons to make sure there
is a better way that people can | 0:31:29 | 0:31:32 | |
report sexual harassment in the
House of commons. Is that necessary? | 0:31:32 | 0:31:37 | |
A better procedure is needed. It is
sad it has taken this controversy to | 0:31:37 | 0:31:42 | |
push this forward. But there is a
problem with MPs who are individual | 0:31:42 | 0:31:47 | |
employers. If you work for an MP and
have a complaint against them, | 0:31:47 | 0:31:52 | |
essentially they are overseeing
their own complaints process. I | 0:31:52 | 0:31:55 | |
think a role for the House of
commons authorities in ensuring that | 0:31:55 | 0:32:00 | |
those complaints are properly dealt
with I think would be very helpful, | 0:32:00 | 0:32:04 | |
so I think the Prime Minister's
letter was a sensible move. So you | 0:32:04 | 0:32:08 | |
think there is a culture of sexual
harassment in the House of commons? | 0:32:08 | 0:32:12 | |
I have not been subjected to it or
seen evidence of it, but obviously | 0:32:12 | 0:32:19 | |
there is anxiety and allegations
have made their way into the papers | 0:32:19 | 0:32:22 | |
and they should be treated
appropriately and properly | 0:32:22 | 0:32:26 | |
investigated. Thank you for talking
to us. | 0:32:26 | 0:32:28 | |
Thank you for talking to us. | 0:32:28 | 0:32:30 | |
Next week the Lord Speaker's
committee publishes its final report | 0:32:30 | 0:32:32 | |
into reducing the size
of the House of Lords. | 0:32:32 | 0:32:34 | |
With over 800 members the upper
house is the second largest | 0:32:34 | 0:32:37 | |
legislative chamber in the world
after the National People's | 0:32:37 | 0:32:39 | |
Congress of China. | 0:32:39 | 0:32:40 | |
The report is expected to recommend
that new peerages should be | 0:32:40 | 0:32:43 | |
time-limited to 15 years and that
in the future political peerage | 0:32:43 | 0:32:46 | |
appointments will also be tied
to a party's election performance. | 0:32:46 | 0:32:50 | |
The government has been under
pressure to take action to cut | 0:32:50 | 0:32:53 | |
members of the unelected chamber,
where they are entitled | 0:32:53 | 0:32:56 | |
to claim an attendance
allowance of £300 a day. | 0:32:56 | 0:33:00 | |
And once again these expenses
have been in the news. | 0:33:00 | 0:33:03 | |
The Electoral Reform Society
discovered that 16 peers had claimed | 0:33:03 | 0:33:05 | |
around £400,000 without speaking
in any debates or submitting any | 0:33:05 | 0:33:08 | |
questions for an entire year. | 0:33:08 | 0:33:12 | |
One of the Lords to be
criticised was Digby Jones, | 0:33:12 | 0:33:15 | |
the crossbencher and former trade
minister, he hasn't spoken | 0:33:15 | 0:33:18 | |
in the Lords since April 2016
and has voted only seven times | 0:33:18 | 0:33:21 | |
during 2016 and 2017. | 0:33:21 | 0:33:24 | |
Yet he has claimed around
£15,000 in this period. | 0:33:24 | 0:33:28 | |
When asked what he does
in the House he said, | 0:33:28 | 0:33:31 | |
"I go in and I will invite for lunch
or meet with inward | 0:33:31 | 0:33:34 | |
investors into the country. | 0:33:34 | 0:33:35 | |
I fly the flag for Britain." | 0:33:35 | 0:33:38 | |
Well, we can speak now
to Lord Jones who joins us | 0:33:38 | 0:33:41 | |
from Stratford Upon Avon. | 0:33:41 | 0:33:45 | |
Thank you very much for talking to
us. You provide value for money in | 0:33:45 | 0:33:50 | |
the House of Lords do you think?
Definitely. I am, by the way, very | 0:33:50 | 0:33:57 | |
keen on reform. I want to see that
15 year tide. I would like to see a | 0:33:57 | 0:34:02 | |
time limit, an age limit of 75 or
80. I would like attendants | 0:34:02 | 0:34:07 | |
definitely define so the whole
public understood what people are | 0:34:07 | 0:34:11 | |
paying for and why. The £300, as a
crossbencher I get no support, and | 0:34:11 | 0:34:18 | |
nor do I want any, speech writing,
secretarial assistance, none of | 0:34:18 | 0:34:26 | |
that, and the £300 goes towards
that. Whilst you are in there | 0:34:26 | 0:34:30 | |
because we will talk about the
reform of the Lords in general, but | 0:34:30 | 0:34:35 | |
in terms of you yourself, you say
you invite people in for lunch, is | 0:34:35 | 0:34:39 | |
it not possible for you to take part
in debates and votes and ask | 0:34:39 | 0:34:42 | |
questions at the same time? Have you
ever listened to a debate in the | 0:34:42 | 0:34:48 | |
laws? Yes, many times. Yes, many
times. You have to put your name | 0:34:48 | 0:35:00 | |
down in advance and you have to be
there for the whole debate. You have | 0:35:00 | 0:35:08 | |
to be around when the vote is called
and you do not know when the book is | 0:35:08 | 0:35:11 | |
called, you have no idea when the
boat is going to be called. This is | 0:35:11 | 0:35:15 | |
part of being a member of the House
of Lords and what it means. If you | 0:35:15 | 0:35:22 | |
are not prepared to wait or take
part in debates, why do you want to | 0:35:22 | 0:35:25 | |
be a member? It is possible to
resign from the House of Lords. | 0:35:25 | 0:35:30 | |
There are many things members of the
Lords do that does not relate to | 0:35:30 | 0:35:34 | |
parrot fashion following somebody
else, which I refuse to do, about | 0:35:34 | 0:35:39 | |
speaking to an empty chamber, or
indeed hanging on sometimes for | 0:35:39 | 0:35:44 | |
hours to vote. There are many other
things that you do. You quote me as | 0:35:44 | 0:35:49 | |
saying I will entertain at lunchtime
or show people around the House, | 0:35:49 | 0:35:53 | |
everything from schoolchildren to
inward investors. I will meet | 0:35:53 | 0:35:57 | |
ministers about big business issues
or educational issues, and at the | 0:35:57 | 0:36:00 | |
same time I will meet other members
of the Lords to get things moving. | 0:36:00 | 0:36:05 | |
None of that relates to going into
the House and getting on your hind | 0:36:05 | 0:36:09 | |
legs, although I do go in and sit
there and learn and listen to | 0:36:09 | 0:36:13 | |
others, which, if more people would
receive and not transmit, we might | 0:36:13 | 0:36:19 | |
get a better informed society. At
the same time many times I will go | 0:36:19 | 0:36:23 | |
after I have listened and I am
leaving and if I have not heard the | 0:36:23 | 0:36:28 | |
debate, I will not vote. Voting is
an essential part of being part of a | 0:36:28 | 0:36:34 | |
legislative chamber. This is not
just an executive committee, it is a | 0:36:34 | 0:36:39 | |
legislature, surpassing that law is
essential, is it not? Do you really | 0:36:39 | 0:36:45 | |
believe that an MP or a member of
the Lords who has not heard a moment | 0:36:45 | 0:36:49 | |
of the debate, who is then listening
to the Bell, walks in and does not | 0:36:49 | 0:36:55 | |
know which lobby, the whips tell
him, they have not heard the debate | 0:36:55 | 0:36:59 | |
and they do not know what they are
voting on and they go and do it? | 0:36:59 | 0:37:04 | |
That is your democracy? Voting seems
to be an essential part of this | 0:37:04 | 0:37:10 | |
chamber, and you have your ideas
about reforming the chamber. It | 0:37:10 | 0:37:14 | |
sounds as though you would reform
yourself out of it. You say people | 0:37:14 | 0:37:18 | |
who are not voting and who are not
taking part in debate should no | 0:37:18 | 0:37:22 | |
longer be members of the House. I
did not say that. I said we ought to | 0:37:22 | 0:37:28 | |
redefine what attendance means and
then if you do not attend on the new | 0:37:28 | 0:37:33 | |
criteria, you do not have to come
ever again, we will give you your | 0:37:33 | 0:37:37 | |
wish. I agree attendance might mean
unless you speak, you are going. | 0:37:37 | 0:37:42 | |
Fair enough, if that is what is
agreed, yes. Sometimes I would speak | 0:37:42 | 0:37:47 | |
and sometimes I would not. If I did
not, then off I go. Similarly after | 0:37:47 | 0:37:53 | |
15 years, off you go. If you reach
75 or 80, off you go. Why do we have | 0:37:53 | 0:37:59 | |
92 members who are only there
because of daddy. You are talking | 0:37:59 | 0:38:05 | |
about hereditary peers. You would
like to reduce the House to what | 0:38:05 | 0:38:08 | |
kind of number? I would get it down
to 400. You would get rid of half | 0:38:08 | 0:38:15 | |
the peers there at the moment? You
think you are active enough to | 0:38:15 | 0:38:18 | |
remain as one of the 400? No, I said
that might well include me. Let's | 0:38:18 | 0:38:26 | |
get a set of criteria, let's push it
through, because the laws is losing | 0:38:26 | 0:38:31 | |
respect in the whole of the country
because there are too many and all | 0:38:31 | 0:38:35 | |
these things about what people pay
for. I bet most people think the | 0:38:35 | 0:38:39 | |
money you get is paid. It is not, it
is re-funding for all the things you | 0:38:39 | 0:38:44 | |
have to pay for yourself. But I
understand how respect has been lost | 0:38:44 | 0:38:49 | |
in society. Let's change it now.
Let's get it through and then, yes, | 0:38:49 | 0:38:54 | |
if you do not meet the criteria, you
have got to go and that includes me. | 0:38:54 | 0:38:59 | |
Lloyd Jones, thank you for talking
to us. | 0:38:59 | 0:39:01 | |
Lloyd Jones, thank
you for talking to us. | 0:39:01 | 0:39:04 | |
It's coming up to 11.40,
you're watching the Sunday Politics. | 0:39:04 | 0:39:06 | |
Coming up on the programme,
we'll be talking to the former | 0:39:06 | 0:39:09 | |
business minister and Conservative
MP Anna Soubry about the Brexit | 0:39:09 | 0:39:12 | |
negotiations and claims of sexual
harassment in Parliament. | 0:39:12 | 0:39:14 | |
This is the Sunday Politics
in the South East. | 0:39:22 | 0:39:27 | |
Coming up later, can the leader
of East Sussex County Council | 0:39:27 | 0:39:32 | |
justify a 37% pay hike while public
sector workers are struggling to get | 0:39:32 | 0:39:35 | |
by on stagnant wages? | 0:39:35 | 0:39:36 | |
We ask him. | 0:39:36 | 0:39:38 | |
Joining me today in the studio
are Sussex-based Labour peer | 0:39:38 | 0:39:41 | |
Baroness Maggie Jones
and Conservative MP | 0:39:41 | 0:39:43 | |
for Dartford, Gareth Johnson. | 0:39:43 | 0:39:44 | |
A very warm welcome. | 0:39:44 | 0:39:47 | |
Now the South East's
international transport | 0:39:47 | 0:39:49 | |
links are vital to its economy. | 0:39:49 | 0:39:50 | |
The Eurotunnel,
Gatwick Airport and the | 0:39:50 | 0:39:52 | |
Port of Dover play a crucial role
in getting large volumes of goods | 0:39:52 | 0:39:55 | |
and people in and out
of the country. | 0:39:55 | 0:39:58 | |
But they currently depend
on frictionless trade | 0:39:58 | 0:39:59 | |
and a series of agreements | 0:40:00 | 0:40:03 | |
with our European
partners to run smoothly. | 0:40:03 | 0:40:05 | |
So what happens if these break down
as a result of Brexit? | 0:40:05 | 0:40:08 | |
We have been finding out. | 0:40:08 | 0:40:12 | |
Gatwick Airport. | 0:40:15 | 0:40:17 | |
On the site alone, there
are 23,000 people employed. | 0:40:17 | 0:40:23 | |
In 2016, there were
around 43 million | 0:40:23 | 0:40:25 | |
visitors to the UK passing
through the airport, | 0:40:25 | 0:40:26 | |
directly creating £1.2 billion
in tax revenues for the UK | 0:40:26 | 0:40:30 | |
Government. | 0:40:30 | 0:40:33 | |
Keeping the planes in the EU skies
are service agreements, | 0:40:33 | 0:40:35 | |
meaning aircraft can
come and go from the UK. | 0:40:35 | 0:40:39 | |
So coming out of the EU,
the Government would have to | 0:40:39 | 0:40:42 | |
replace the EU framework governing
where airlines can fly. | 0:40:42 | 0:40:48 | |
Airports across the EU
all want to see the | 0:40:48 | 0:40:50 | |
legal framework agreed upon. | 0:40:50 | 0:40:54 | |
I guess where the frustration comes
is actually those talks have not | 0:40:54 | 0:40:57 | |
actually started. | 0:40:57 | 0:40:58 | |
So we are keen that
both sides of these | 0:40:58 | 0:41:01 | |
negotiations put that effort
in and start getting into those | 0:41:01 | 0:41:03 | |
detailed discussions
as soon as possible. | 0:41:03 | 0:41:05 | |
Because that is really
what the sector needs. | 0:41:05 | 0:41:07 | |
Dover. | 0:41:07 | 0:41:08 | |
Over 12 million passengers
and just over £2.5 | 0:41:08 | 0:41:10 | |
million road haulage
vehicles travel through | 0:41:10 | 0:41:11 | |
Dover in 2016. | 0:41:12 | 0:41:17 | |
The Dover Strait is the world's
easiest shipping lane | 0:41:17 | 0:41:20 | |
with up to 600 ships a day passing
through the narrow waters between | 0:41:20 | 0:41:23 | |
the UK and France. | 0:41:23 | 0:41:24 | |
-- the busiest shipping lane. | 0:41:24 | 0:41:27 | |
At the moment, goods can
be traded within the | 0:41:27 | 0:41:36 | |
European Union as the UK as part
of the EU Customs Union. | 0:41:36 | 0:41:39 | |
Meaning items are not subject
to any customs duty or | 0:41:39 | 0:41:41 | |
quotas. | 0:41:41 | 0:41:42 | |
But when Britain leaves,
the Government will | 0:41:42 | 0:41:44 | |
need to establish
a | 0:41:44 | 0:41:45 | |
new customs arrangement. | 0:41:45 | 0:41:46 | |
Dover is the cheapest way | 0:41:46 | 0:41:47 | |
in which to take goods across. | 0:41:47 | 0:41:48 | |
It is the shortest crossing. | 0:41:48 | 0:41:55 | |
If each lorry is held for two
minutes more in Dover and it is a | 0:41:55 | 0:41:58 | |
-- | 0:41:58 | 0:42:00 | |
moment, it is estimated that this
will result in traffic jams of at | 0:42:02 | 0:42:06 | |
least 17 miles long. | 0:42:06 | 0:42:09 | |
-- than it is at the moment. | 0:42:09 | 0:42:11 | |
And remember that will be
virtually every day of | 0:42:11 | 0:42:13 | |
the year. | 0:42:13 | 0:42:14 | |
So what do we have? | 0:42:14 | 0:42:16 | |
We have a lot more
cost to business, we | 0:42:16 | 0:42:18 | |
have wasted money with lorries being
stationary and it is certainly not | 0:42:18 | 0:42:21 | |
good for Dover. | 0:42:21 | 0:42:22 | |
The Channel Tunnel,
£100 billion worth of trade is | 0:42:22 | 0:42:24 | |
brought in by the Channel
Tunnel each year. | 0:42:24 | 0:42:26 | |
Last year there were about 21
million passengers across | 0:42:26 | 0:42:30 | |
all services and 1.6 million lorries
crossed using the link. | 0:42:30 | 0:42:35 | |
Speed and frequency are vital. | 0:42:35 | 0:42:39 | |
Similar to the shipping
industry, the sector needs | 0:42:39 | 0:42:41 | |
a clear customs framework in place
before the UK leaves the EU. | 0:42:41 | 0:42:44 | |
I think the worst case
scenario is unimaginable. | 0:42:44 | 0:42:49 | |
So we're not even considering
that it could happen, | 0:42:49 | 0:42:55 | |
because the damage to
the economies on both sides | 0:42:55 | 0:42:57 | |
of the Channel would
be considerable. | 0:42:57 | 0:43:00 | |
It is incredibly frustrating
not knowing what the | 0:43:00 | 0:43:02 | |
outcome will be
in a couple of years. | 0:43:02 | 0:43:05 | |
If there were to be some kind
of disruption to the fluidity of | 0:43:05 | 0:43:08 | |
traffic at the Channel Tunnel then
that would have an impact across | 0:43:08 | 0:43:12 | |
industry and across the continent,
not just across the UK. | 0:43:12 | 0:43:16 | |
There is no real default
Brexit deal for each | 0:43:16 | 0:43:18 | |
industry. | 0:43:18 | 0:43:20 | |
Yet despite the unknown
and uncertainty leaving the EU could | 0:43:20 | 0:43:24 | |
create new business avenues. | 0:43:24 | 0:43:31 | |
There are all sorts
of things that could be | 0:43:31 | 0:43:33 | |
opportunities for us,
not least what happens | 0:43:33 | 0:43:35 | |
to duty-free, example. | 0:43:35 | 0:43:38 | |
But actually we won't know all | 0:43:38 | 0:43:42 | |
of those opportunities
and how we can benefit | 0:43:42 | 0:43:43 | |
from them until we get
a | 0:43:43 | 0:43:45 | |
framework sorted. | 0:43:45 | 0:43:46 | |
It is a great opportunity | 0:43:46 | 0:43:47 | |
to use Brexit as a springboard
for being able to attract more ships | 0:43:47 | 0:43:50 | |
into this country. | 0:43:50 | 0:43:53 | |
In reality, we can
almost see Brexit as an | 0:43:53 | 0:43:56 | |
opportunity to bring forward some
of the projects that industry has | 0:43:56 | 0:43:59 | |
been promoting over the past few
years, | 0:43:59 | 0:44:00 | |
using the digital economy
in a more effective way. | 0:44:00 | 0:44:03 | |
Each sector has its own hopes
and fears as to what | 0:44:03 | 0:44:06 | |
Brexit will bring. | 0:44:06 | 0:44:08 | |
But all are agreed that
the sooner trade deals | 0:44:08 | 0:44:10 | |
are set out, the better to keep
the South East economy moving. | 0:44:10 | 0:44:14 | |
Gareth Johnson,
David Davis appeared to | 0:44:17 | 0:44:20 | |
dismiss that figure we heard there
from Dover earlier this week, the 17 | 0:44:20 | 0:44:24 | |
miles of queues, saying it sounded
incredibly dramatic. | 0:44:24 | 0:44:28 | |
Are you satisfied he
is taking the risk to | 0:44:28 | 0:44:30 | |
the South East seriously? | 0:44:30 | 0:44:31 | |
Yes, I am. | 0:44:31 | 0:44:35 | |
What we can all be confident about,
I think, is that there is a | 0:44:35 | 0:44:38 | |
desire on
both sides of the Channel to get | 0:44:38 | 0:44:40 | |
a system that works. | 0:44:40 | 0:44:41 | |
France doesn't want queues of
traffic in Calais any more than we | 0:44:41 | 0:44:44 | |
want queues of traffic in Dover. | 0:44:44 | 0:44:49 | |
There is an opportunity here,
and I totally agree with your piece, | 0:44:49 | 0:44:52 | |
through Brexit we can
look at issues like free | 0:44:52 | 0:45:01 | |
ports, where you have | 0:45:01 | 0:45:06 | |
geographically a port in the UK
but free of any customs or tariffs. | 0:45:06 | 0:45:09 | |
There are something
like 3,500 of those | 0:45:09 | 0:45:11 | |
worldwide, but not one the UK. | 0:45:11 | 0:45:12 | |
The reason for that
is because of the | 0:45:12 | 0:45:14 | |
EU. | 0:45:14 | 0:45:15 | |
But of course what we heard
in the piece there | 0:45:15 | 0:45:18 | |
was that things need
to | 0:45:18 | 0:45:19 | |
be got under way. | 0:45:19 | 0:45:20 | |
We need things to be
happening to be able to take | 0:45:20 | 0:45:22 | |
advantage of that
sort of opportunity. | 0:45:22 | 0:45:24 | |
We do. | 0:45:24 | 0:45:25 | |
We need the negotiations. | 0:45:25 | 0:45:26 | |
That is the main aim,
that we have a negotiated agreement | 0:45:26 | 0:45:29 | |
with the European Union whereby
we can use the basis of the systems | 0:45:29 | 0:45:32 | |
that we have at the moment
as a system for the future. | 0:45:32 | 0:45:35 | |
That is important
because obviously | 0:45:35 | 0:45:36 | |
there is the familiarity there. | 0:45:36 | 0:45:37 | |
I'm actually quite confident
that we can do so. | 0:45:37 | 0:45:39 | |
It is in the EU's interests and in
the UK's interests for that to | 0:45:39 | 0:45:43 | |
happen, so I can see it happening. | 0:45:43 | 0:45:44 | |
Maggie Jones, we're talking
about certainty for business. | 0:45:44 | 0:45:46 | |
That is one thing that
Labour's Brexit plans | 0:45:46 | 0:45:48 | |
really don't give, isn't it? | 0:45:48 | 0:45:50 | |
Well, they certainly
do give certainty. | 0:45:50 | 0:45:51 | |
We've made it absolutely clear
that we think we should be having | 0:45:51 | 0:45:54 | |
access to the single market
in the long | 0:45:54 | 0:45:56 | |
term. | 0:45:56 | 0:45:57 | |
And access to a customs union. | 0:45:57 | 0:45:58 | |
And actually that is what British
business want, as well. | 0:45:58 | 0:46:01 | |
If you listen to the CBI,
all of the voices of | 0:46:01 | 0:46:03 | |
British business... | 0:46:03 | 0:46:04 | |
But you have said there
is a possibility you | 0:46:04 | 0:46:06 | |
could stay in the single market,
or it might be a deal outside it | 0:46:06 | 0:46:10 | |
or a two-year transitional... | 0:46:10 | 0:46:11 | |
It is about certainty and we want
something that is akin or better | 0:46:11 | 0:46:14 | |
to what we have now,
which is certainly not anything that | 0:46:14 | 0:46:17 | |
appears to be on the cards
at the current | 0:46:17 | 0:46:19 | |
time. | 0:46:19 | 0:46:20 | |
If we stick with something
that is very close to what we have | 0:46:20 | 0:46:23 | |
now, though, might we miss out
on some of those opportunities? | 0:46:23 | 0:46:26 | |
The Airport Operators Association
is talking about things like halving | 0:46:26 | 0:46:28 | |
passenger duties. | 0:46:28 | 0:46:29 | |
If we try and keep what we have now,
won't we miss out? | 0:46:29 | 0:46:32 | |
Well, if you look at where business
takes place, so much of our exports | 0:46:32 | 0:46:36 | |
to the EU. | 0:46:36 | 0:46:37 | |
So much of imports from the EU. | 0:46:37 | 0:46:38 | |
To replace that with something
different or that has | 0:46:38 | 0:46:40 | |
tariffs attached to it
would have a really | 0:46:40 | 0:46:42 | |
dampening effect on
the | 0:46:42 | 0:46:43 | |
British economy. | 0:46:43 | 0:46:44 | |
So we cannot afford to take
risks on all of that. | 0:46:44 | 0:46:47 | |
If you take my area,
agriculture, 80% of | 0:46:47 | 0:46:49 | |
agricultural exports go to the EU. | 0:46:49 | 0:46:50 | |
And something equivalent
comes back again. | 0:46:50 | 0:46:56 | |
So we may find some other markets
out there, but it will be a | 0:46:56 | 0:46:59 | |
very tough job to replace
that core market of EU. | 0:46:59 | 0:47:02 | |
And talking about protecting
that, we only 18 months | 0:47:02 | 0:47:04 | |
away from Brexit, Gareth Johnson,
if we're really going to be prepared | 0:47:04 | 0:47:08 | |
for any possible no deal scenario,
shouldn't we be seeing diggers out | 0:47:08 | 0:47:12 | |
now, spades in the ground,
technology being rolled | 0:47:12 | 0:47:14 | |
out and piloted. | 0:47:14 | 0:47:15 | |
We're not seeing that. | 0:47:15 | 0:47:17 | |
The Department for Transport has
been working both with | 0:47:17 | 0:47:21 | |
the aviation sector
and with the maritime | 0:47:21 | 0:47:23 | |
trading sector to ensure | 0:47:23 | 0:47:24 | |
that there are contingency plans
in the event of a no deal. | 0:47:24 | 0:47:27 | |
Are they good enough? | 0:47:27 | 0:47:28 | |
Your Kent MP colleague this week has
said things need to be | 0:47:28 | 0:47:31 | |
happening now. | 0:47:31 | 0:47:32 | |
He said you should be setting
aside £1 billion to deal | 0:47:32 | 0:47:35 | |
with the infrastructure. | 0:47:35 | 0:47:36 | |
Is he wrong? | 0:47:36 | 0:47:37 | |
Things are happening now.
That is the point. | 0:47:37 | 0:47:42 | |
There's a lot of work
that is going on in | 0:47:42 | 0:47:45 | |
contingency plans in place
in the event of a no deal on either | 0:47:45 | 0:47:49 | |
aviation or maritime trade. | 0:47:49 | 0:47:50 | |
But that is not the aim. | 0:47:50 | 0:47:51 | |
We're trying to get a deal
and we are optimistic that we | 0:47:51 | 0:47:54 | |
will be able to do so,
because we do not want | 0:47:54 | 0:47:57 | |
to put all of our eggs
in | 0:47:57 | 0:47:58 | |
one basket. | 0:47:58 | 0:47:59 | |
There's a whole world out
there and the wonderful aspects | 0:47:59 | 0:48:02 | |
of Brexit is that it
enables us to be more | 0:48:02 | 0:48:04 | |
global in our outlook
and it | 0:48:04 | 0:48:06 | |
gives us the opportunity
so we do not have to | 0:48:06 | 0:48:08 | |
have the tariffs that the EU
for example is imposing on | 0:48:08 | 0:48:11 | |
goods being imported
now, like clothes. | 0:48:11 | 0:48:12 | |
But on the timing of
the negotiations, David Davis said | 0:48:12 | 0:48:14 | |
this week he expects the EU to make
a deal | 0:48:14 | 0:48:17 | |
at the 11th hour. | 0:48:17 | 0:48:18 | |
That will not be any good
for the airline industry, | 0:48:18 | 0:48:20 | |
is it? | 0:48:20 | 0:48:21 | |
Passengers will be booking
18 months in advance. | 0:48:21 | 0:48:23 | |
It would be an absolute disaster. | 0:48:23 | 0:48:25 | |
Not just for the airline
industry, but for all | 0:48:25 | 0:48:27 | |
businesses, because they plan ahead. | 0:48:27 | 0:48:28 | |
They make investments ahead. | 0:48:28 | 0:48:29 | |
They plan now for goods
they want to market in | 0:48:29 | 0:48:31 | |
a year. | 0:48:32 | 0:48:33 | |
So businesses are putting investment
on hold until we get | 0:48:33 | 0:48:35 | |
clarity. | 0:48:35 | 0:48:36 | |
And they'll carry on doing that. | 0:48:36 | 0:48:37 | |
An 11th hour deal would be an
absolute disaster for our economy. | 0:48:37 | 0:48:40 | |
Do you agree, Gareth Johnson? | 0:48:40 | 0:48:41 | |
Well, we want to move
onto the next phase | 0:48:41 | 0:48:44 | |
of the negotiations,
but not only the EU itself, | 0:48:44 | 0:48:47 | |
but 18 Labour MEPs voted to say no,
we will not move onto | 0:48:47 | 0:48:51 | |
those stages. | 0:48:51 | 0:48:52 | |
We want progress and we are
working hard to achieve | 0:48:52 | 0:48:54 | |
that. | 0:48:54 | 0:48:55 | |
The idea that the EU does not
want to see planes full of British | 0:48:55 | 0:48:58 | |
tourists landing at their
resorts is nonsense. | 0:48:58 | 0:49:01 | |
I don't think anyone
is saying that, are they? | 0:49:01 | 0:49:03 | |
No one is saying
they don't want them. | 0:49:03 | 0:49:05 | |
It is just whether we can
get all the agreements | 0:49:05 | 0:49:07 | |
thrashed out in time. | 0:49:07 | 0:49:09 | |
I think it is fair to say
that there are people | 0:49:09 | 0:49:12 | |
out there that feel
that | 0:49:12 | 0:49:13 | |
there is only doom
and gloom when it comes | 0:49:13 | 0:49:15 | |
to Brexit, simply not
the | 0:49:15 | 0:49:16 | |
case. | 0:49:16 | 0:49:17 | |
There is quite clearly equal
interest in making sure that we have | 0:49:17 | 0:49:22 | |
systems that work for both our ships
and planes and I'm confident that | 0:49:22 | 0:49:27 | |
we'll be up to put in place
with a deal or without a deal. | 0:49:27 | 0:49:30 | |
We do need a transitional
period, because that is | 0:49:30 | 0:49:32 | |
what everyone is saying. | 0:49:32 | 0:49:33 | |
That is the thing that
will make a difference. | 0:49:33 | 0:49:35 | |
The Government has blown
hot and cold on that, | 0:49:35 | 0:49:38 | |
but that is the thing that business
want in terms of | 0:49:38 | 0:49:40 | |
giving them some certainty. | 0:49:40 | 0:49:41 | |
Think we have to leave it there. | 0:49:41 | 0:49:43 | |
I think we could do a whole
show on this but we | 0:49:43 | 0:49:46 | |
have to move on to
our next subject. | 0:49:46 | 0:49:48 | |
The public sector pay cap has
dominated headlines of the last few | 0:49:48 | 0:49:51 | |
months. | 0:49:51 | 0:49:52 | |
East Sussex has sparked
a pay row of its own. | 0:49:52 | 0:49:54 | |
Keith Glazier, the leader
of the County Council has | 0:49:54 | 0:49:57 | |
voted to give himself a 37%
hike in his allowance. | 0:49:57 | 0:49:59 | |
His fellow councillors
will get a 9% rise. | 0:49:59 | 0:50:02 | |
It is on the recommendation of an
independent panel, but not everyone | 0:50:02 | 0:50:05 | |
is happy. | 0:50:05 | 0:50:06 | |
Lib Dem Councillor Sarah
Osborne had this to say. | 0:50:06 | 0:50:08 | |
Contempt for the residents. | 0:50:08 | 0:50:11 | |
I couldn't vote myself
a pay rise, look people | 0:50:11 | 0:50:14 | |
in the eye and know
that | 0:50:14 | 0:50:16 | |
desperately needed services
are going to be cut. | 0:50:16 | 0:50:18 | |
Let's ask the man himself. | 0:50:18 | 0:50:20 | |
How do you justify this? | 0:50:20 | 0:50:23 | |
I've come here today
to explain how we got to | 0:50:23 | 0:50:25 | |
where we are. | 0:50:25 | 0:50:27 | |
We clearly have an independent
panel which comes to the | 0:50:27 | 0:50:31 | |
council every four years to look
at the allowances for councils. | 0:50:31 | 0:50:35 | |
They found some
anomalies, some councils | 0:50:35 | 0:50:39 | |
were getting telephone lines paid,
some were getting broadband paid, | 0:50:39 | 0:50:41 | |
some are getting a printer paid. | 0:50:41 | 0:50:46 | |
All of that has now gone. | 0:50:46 | 0:50:52 | |
There was a general view that we now
have a level playing | 0:50:52 | 0:50:55 | |
field and all councillors
will | 0:50:55 | 0:50:56 | |
get a rise of £1000
which accounts for that. | 0:50:56 | 0:50:58 | |
But yours is much higher than that. | 0:50:58 | 0:51:00 | |
It is a 37%... | 0:51:00 | 0:51:01 | |
I was coming on to that. | 0:51:01 | 0:51:02 | |
The next thing is that in comparison
with all councils across the | 0:51:02 | 0:51:05 | |
country, the independent panel, not
me, have done some work and found | 0:51:05 | 0:51:09 | |
out that actually council leaders
in general get between 2.8 and 3.2 | 0:51:09 | 0:51:16 | |
times the basic allowance. | 0:51:16 | 0:51:20 | |
And their words not
mine, in East Sussex | 0:51:20 | 0:51:22 | |
it was woefully low. | 0:51:22 | 0:51:24 | |
So they decided it should go
on the very lowest of | 0:51:24 | 0:51:28 | |
that multiplier,
which is 2.8, which did | 0:51:28 | 0:51:35 | |
the allowance for the leader,
and | 0:51:35 | 0:51:36 | |
this is not just me,
it is a position on | 0:51:36 | 0:51:39 | |
the council, happens
to | 0:51:39 | 0:51:40 | |
be me now, should be paid 2.8 times
the basic allowance. | 0:51:40 | 0:51:42 | |
And that happen to be... | 0:51:42 | 0:51:44 | |
And that happened to be 9 million. | 0:51:44 | 0:51:45 | |
9 million! | 0:51:45 | 0:51:46 | |
That would be an increase! | 0:51:46 | 0:51:48 | |
£9,000. | 0:51:48 | 0:51:49 | |
And the timing of this
is not our choice. | 0:51:49 | 0:51:55 | |
The timing of this was that this
started in March, I said... | 0:51:55 | 0:51:58 | |
Even now, at a time
of austerity, you're | 0:51:58 | 0:52:00 | |
making £20 million worth of cuts
to your council budget, can you see | 0:52:00 | 0:52:04 | |
that you as leader
voting through a pay | 0:52:04 | 0:52:07 | |
rise that is substantial
in | 0:52:07 | 0:52:09 | |
percentage terms, can you see how
that might look to the public? | 0:52:09 | 0:52:12 | |
Absolutely.
And I'm not here to defend it. | 0:52:12 | 0:52:14 | |
I am telling you a process. | 0:52:14 | 0:52:16 | |
The council will then... | 0:52:16 | 0:52:17 | |
But you voted for it. | 0:52:17 | 0:52:18 | |
I personally... | 0:52:18 | 0:52:19 | |
Surely you must agree with it. | 0:52:19 | 0:52:21 | |
I personally voted for it,
because why on earth | 0:52:21 | 0:52:23 | |
would you engage an independent
panel if you then ignore their | 0:52:23 | 0:52:26 | |
recommendations? | 0:52:26 | 0:52:27 | |
Which is what has
happened over the years. | 0:52:27 | 0:52:30 | |
This vote was carried
with one councillor | 0:52:30 | 0:52:32 | |
voting against. | 0:52:32 | 0:52:33 | |
At the end of the day,
you have two choices, you can | 0:52:33 | 0:52:36 | |
ignore independent
advice, and therefore | 0:52:36 | 0:52:38 | |
carry on as you are,
and | 0:52:38 | 0:52:43 | |
it would have been a much easier
life, I had no idea just how | 0:52:43 | 0:52:49 | |
disappointed and upset
some people would be. | 0:52:49 | 0:52:50 | |
I can understand... | 0:52:50 | 0:52:52 | |
What about the staff? | 0:52:52 | 0:52:54 | |
Because staff at your council
have had a 1% pay cap | 0:52:54 | 0:52:57 | |
for seven years. | 0:52:57 | 0:53:00 | |
How can you walk in the same
corridors and say, I'm | 0:53:00 | 0:53:04 | |
sorry there's no money
for you to have a rise. | 0:53:04 | 0:53:06 | |
I have no problem with that. | 0:53:06 | 0:53:08 | |
As you know, we have always
supported our staff and whatever has | 0:53:08 | 0:53:11 | |
been agreed by their
negotiators has been agreed. | 0:53:11 | 0:53:14 | |
I didn't write this report. | 0:53:14 | 0:53:19 | |
We have two choices,
we accepted it or we rejected it. | 0:53:19 | 0:53:22 | |
And the council accepted it. | 0:53:22 | 0:53:23 | |
It was not my choice. | 0:53:23 | 0:53:25 | |
But it was your choice
to vote for it. | 0:53:25 | 0:53:28 | |
Absolutely. | 0:53:28 | 0:53:29 | |
You could have abstained. | 0:53:29 | 0:53:30 | |
I could have abstained... | 0:53:30 | 0:53:31 | |
Why didn't you? | 0:53:31 | 0:53:37 | |
Because actually
I think that that way | 0:53:37 | 0:53:39 | |
continue with an
anomaly that exists. | 0:53:39 | 0:53:40 | |
It doesn't make it right or wrong,
what we have now is a | 0:53:40 | 0:53:44 | |
recommendation that puts East Sussex
in line with most councils in this | 0:53:44 | 0:53:47 | |
country. | 0:53:47 | 0:53:48 | |
And the savings that were made
by not being members of the | 0:53:48 | 0:53:51 | |
Local Government pension scheme any
more and by not paying phone lines | 0:53:51 | 0:53:56 | |
etc way outweigh the cost
of of the whole of this package. | 0:53:56 | 0:54:00 | |
Will you be lobbying
government to lift the | 0:54:00 | 0:54:02 | |
public sector pay cap? | 0:54:02 | 0:54:07 | |
For your staff. | 0:54:07 | 0:54:08 | |
I've been asked by the unions to do
that, I will take it to my group, | 0:54:08 | 0:54:12 | |
because actually I am
only the leader of a | 0:54:12 | 0:54:14 | |
group and the leader
of | 0:54:14 | 0:54:15 | |
a council, I do nothing on my own,
at the end of the day that will be | 0:54:15 | 0:54:20 | |
considered. | 0:54:20 | 0:54:21 | |
And in due course
a response will come back. | 0:54:21 | 0:54:23 | |
OK, Maggie Jones, if you were
in Keith's position, | 0:54:23 | 0:54:25 | |
would you have voted for this rise? | 0:54:25 | 0:54:27 | |
I'm sorry, Keith, but I do
understand that, you know, the case | 0:54:27 | 0:54:29 | |
for having an independent review,
but in the current climate, | 0:54:29 | 0:54:32 | |
when public sector pay has been held
down for | 0:54:32 | 0:54:34 | |
such a long time, I find that very
difficult to justify. | 0:54:34 | 0:54:37 | |
We cannot have two rules,
one for the professionals | 0:54:37 | 0:54:40 | |
and another for the lower paid. | 0:54:40 | 0:54:41 | |
We have to have... | 0:54:41 | 0:54:47 | |
If there will be any sense
of fairness in this country, we have | 0:54:47 | 0:54:50 | |
to have one set of rules
and therefore I just cannot... | 0:54:50 | 0:54:53 | |
I would find it very
very difficult to | 0:54:53 | 0:54:55 | |
justify what you have done
at the current time. | 0:54:55 | 0:54:58 | |
And your councillors voted for it. | 0:54:59 | 0:55:00 | |
I was asked what my
view was and, you | 0:55:00 | 0:55:07 | |
know, I would say this to them. | 0:55:07 | 0:55:11 | |
We have to have one set of
rules. | 0:55:11 | 0:55:13 | |
And, as you say, there is austerity
at the moment and people | 0:55:13 | 0:55:16 | |
are really struggling to pay
their bills, to pay their rent. | 0:55:16 | 0:55:19 | |
It does not feel right
that a particular | 0:55:19 | 0:55:20 | |
group of staff can vote
themselves a pay rise. | 0:55:20 | 0:55:23 | |
Although of course MPs have had
a pay raise recently and | 0:55:23 | 0:55:25 | |
you're getting one in April. | 0:55:25 | 0:55:26 | |
Is this right, Gareth? | 0:55:26 | 0:55:28 | |
Up to £76,000. | 0:55:28 | 0:55:29 | |
We get 1.3%, which is
the average of the | 0:55:29 | 0:55:31 | |
public sector pay
increases, that is why | 0:55:31 | 0:55:35 | |
what the MPs have been
allocated for this year. | 0:55:35 | 0:55:37 | |
And the last year,
it was exactly the same. | 0:55:37 | 0:55:40 | |
I think there is a wider issue here. | 0:55:40 | 0:55:42 | |
Although I understand
why it is hard for many | 0:55:42 | 0:55:50 | |
people to swallow a 37% increase,
I was a councillor myself, and it is | 0:55:50 | 0:55:54 | |
increasingly becoming a full-time
job, particularly as a leader of a | 0:55:54 | 0:55:56 | |
County Council. | 0:55:56 | 0:55:57 | |
The amount of hours that I put
in is quite astronomical. | 0:55:57 | 0:56:00 | |
The remuneration is essential,
because the last thing you want is | 0:56:00 | 0:56:03 | |
to put people off coming
into local Government, | 0:56:03 | 0:56:05 | |
simply because they are unable
to afford to do so. | 0:56:05 | 0:56:07 | |
A question, then. | 0:56:07 | 0:56:08 | |
Keith gets about half
what you do as an MP. | 0:56:08 | 0:56:10 | |
You are both elected,
you both represent a | 0:56:10 | 0:56:12 | |
large number of people
in the South East, is this just | 0:56:12 | 0:56:15 | |
that we don't value local
Government? | 0:56:15 | 0:56:16 | |
I think... | 0:56:16 | 0:56:17 | |
I get a pension,
Keith does not get a | 0:56:17 | 0:56:20 | |
pension, for example. | 0:56:20 | 0:56:21 | |
Therefore there are
lots of anomalies like | 0:56:21 | 0:56:22 | |
that. | 0:56:22 | 0:56:23 | |
I think we have to be
sensitive about this issue, | 0:56:23 | 0:56:26 | |
particularly what is happening
in the public and in the private pay | 0:56:26 | 0:56:29 | |
sector. | 0:56:29 | 0:56:31 | |
What we need to do is ensure | 0:56:31 | 0:56:33 | |
that we have an amount that is not
so high that it makes it attractive | 0:56:33 | 0:56:36 | |
to actually go into the position
or too low to put people off. | 0:56:36 | 0:56:40 | |
But to get that balance
right is incredibly | 0:56:40 | 0:56:41 | |
difficult. | 0:56:42 | 0:56:43 | |
What about somewhere like the House
of Lords where you are not | 0:56:43 | 0:56:45 | |
really trying to attract
people in as such? | 0:56:45 | 0:56:47 | |
Should your allowances stand? | 0:56:47 | 0:56:48 | |
It is, what, £300 a day? | 0:56:48 | 0:56:50 | |
We haven't had a pay
rise for seven years. | 0:56:50 | 0:56:52 | |
But most of you have come from other
careers, many have other | 0:56:52 | 0:56:55 | |
interests. | 0:56:55 | 0:56:56 | |
Is there an argument to say,
perhaps the Lords allowance | 0:56:56 | 0:56:58 | |
should be lowered? | 0:56:58 | 0:56:59 | |
We had a review some long
time ago, as well, which | 0:56:59 | 0:57:02 | |
set it at the rate it is now. | 0:57:02 | 0:57:05 | |
You could in an ideal
world look at all | 0:57:05 | 0:57:07 | |
of these comparators,
MPs, councillors, | 0:57:07 | 0:57:11 | |
peers, that is great
as | 0:57:11 | 0:57:13 | |
long as we do it from top to bottom,
and that is not what is happening at | 0:57:13 | 0:57:17 | |
the moment. | 0:57:17 | 0:57:18 | |
So you have to include all staff,
not just a particular one | 0:57:18 | 0:57:21 | |
that you are focusing on. | 0:57:21 | 0:57:23 | |
For elected members,
wouldn't it be great | 0:57:23 | 0:57:24 | |
to have an independent commission? | 0:57:25 | 0:57:26 | |
So we do not have this anomaly. | 0:57:26 | 0:57:30 | |
Where we then have to ratify
something that has been brought | 0:57:30 | 0:57:32 | |
forward by an independent
commission. | 0:57:32 | 0:57:34 | |
If you don't want to do it that way,
then you are always | 0:57:34 | 0:57:37 | |
going to be in this
really difficult place, | 0:57:37 | 0:57:39 | |
because there will never be
a | 0:57:39 | 0:57:44 | |
good time to vote
yourself a pay rise. | 0:57:44 | 0:57:46 | |
Never a good time. | 0:57:46 | 0:57:49 | |
As I said, and think it was said
earlier, I do not know any | 0:57:49 | 0:57:53 | |
counsellor that comes
into this for the money. | 0:57:53 | 0:58:00 | |
You are talking about increasing
ways to get more people into the | 0:58:00 | 0:58:03 | |
council. | 0:58:04 | 0:58:05 | |
Surely isn't the fact
they are all of your meetings in the | 0:58:05 | 0:58:08 | |
afternoon more difficult? | 0:58:08 | 0:58:09 | |
Do we? | 0:58:09 | 0:58:10 | |
At the end of the day,
County Councils | 0:58:10 | 0:58:14 | |
are day time meetings,
I'm very pleased that we have a | 0:58:14 | 0:58:16 | |
19-year-old joining us
at the election this year. | 0:58:16 | 0:58:20 | |
And we have some mid-20s. | 0:58:20 | 0:58:22 | |
If their employers | 0:58:22 | 0:58:24 | |
don't pay them for the day
they have come off, | 0:58:24 | 0:58:26 | |
and I would urge people
to | 0:58:26 | 0:58:28 | |
read the report. | 0:58:28 | 0:58:29 | |
It clearly says we need
to do something about the | 0:58:29 | 0:58:31 | |
gender balance, the age balance. | 0:58:31 | 0:58:32 | |
We are all... | 0:58:32 | 0:58:33 | |
Think we have to leave it there. | 0:58:33 | 0:58:35 | |
Thank you very much for coming in. | 0:58:35 | 0:58:37 | |
It is now time for a round-up
of this week's News in 60 | 0:58:37 | 0:58:40 | |
seconds. | 0:58:40 | 0:58:42 | |
Emergency response times
for the most serious call-outs from | 0:58:42 | 0:58:50 | |
the South East Coast
Ambulance service were | 0:58:50 | 0:58:52 | |
the worst the NHS has ever | 0:58:52 | 0:58:53 | |
recorded. | 0:58:53 | 0:58:54 | |
Last month, the service reached just
over 50% of the red one | 0:58:54 | 0:58:57 | |
call-outs in eight minutes
when a target is 75%. | 0:58:57 | 0:58:59 | |
MP Peter Carl says
more needs to be done. | 0:58:59 | 0:59:01 | |
These figures are utterly shocking. | 0:59:01 | 0:59:03 | |
Something radical has to happen now. | 0:59:03 | 0:59:04 | |
I've called a meeting
of the Ambulance | 0:59:04 | 0:59:06 | |
Service and NHS improvement and I
will be raising this in the very | 0:59:06 | 0:59:09 | |
highest levels. | 0:59:09 | 0:59:12 | |
Medway Council has criticised
the Government's new | 0:59:12 | 0:59:14 | |
housing plans that risk
decimating green spaces. | 0:59:14 | 0:59:18 | |
More than 29,000 homes
were earmarked to be built by 2035, | 0:59:18 | 0:59:23 | |
but the Government has set
a new target of 38,000 homes. | 0:59:23 | 0:59:26 | |
The Government has a small majority
and can no longer ride | 0:59:26 | 0:59:30 | |
roughshod over everyone,
as they are seeking | 0:59:30 | 0:59:32 | |
to do with this. | 0:59:32 | 0:59:33 | |
Sussex MP Nus Ghani this week
called for an emergency | 0:59:33 | 0:59:36 | |
debate to discuss how misogynistic
abuse is undermining politics. | 0:59:36 | 0:59:38 | |
She tweeted that recent
actions of Labour MPs show | 0:59:38 | 0:59:40 | |
the party's systemic problem
with sexism and misogyny. | 0:59:40 | 0:59:46 | |
Maggie Jones, URA Labour woman,
does your party have a problem with | 0:59:47 | 0:59:50 | |
misogyny? | 0:59:50 | 0:59:54 | |
-- you are a Labour woman. | 0:59:54 | 1:00:00 | |
Well, I think all political
parties have a problem | 1:00:00 | 1:00:02 | |
with misogyny. | 1:00:03 | 1:00:03 | |
But it has been Labour... | 1:00:03 | 1:00:11 | |
Let's not try and score
a cheap political point. | 1:00:11 | 1:00:14 | |
Because actually, as we know,
and as more evidence | 1:00:14 | 1:00:16 | |
comes to light, this
is a problem right across the. | 1:00:16 | 1:00:18 | |
And, yes, we need to tackle it. | 1:00:18 | 1:00:20 | |
The evidence that is coming
forward is really, really | 1:00:20 | 1:00:22 | |
scary and worrying. | 1:00:22 | 1:00:23 | |
But you don't have a
particular problem in the | 1:00:23 | 1:00:25 | |
Labour Party? | 1:00:25 | 1:00:26 | |
I think anybody will
except that it is a problem across | 1:00:26 | 1:00:29 | |
the board. | 1:00:29 | 1:00:30 | |
A problem across politics,
across all sectors. | 1:00:30 | 1:00:32 | |
And we do need to stamp it out. | 1:00:32 | 1:00:34 | |
Gareth Johnson, is
this political point | 1:00:34 | 1:00:35 | |
scoring on the part of Nus Ghani? | 1:00:35 | 1:00:37 | |
No, I don't think it is. | 1:00:37 | 1:00:38 | |
I think what she said
is she wants a debate | 1:00:38 | 1:00:40 | |
about the language that was used
by one of our colleagues. | 1:00:40 | 1:00:43 | |
I spoke to Nus about
this and I looked at | 1:00:43 | 1:00:45 | |
her Twitter feed afterwards. | 1:00:46 | 1:00:47 | |
She had something like
12,000 comments that | 1:00:47 | 1:00:48 | |
were very, very aggressive
in the main towards her. | 1:00:48 | 1:00:50 | |
Whenever a man chipped
in to defend her, they | 1:00:50 | 1:00:53 | |
didn't get anything like the kind
of criticism that she got. | 1:00:53 | 1:00:55 | |
So I agree that actually
the mainstream Labour | 1:00:55 | 1:00:58 | |
Party, there is not any more
than there is an any other political | 1:00:58 | 1:01:01 | |
party, I think the problem
we have in British | 1:01:01 | 1:01:03 | |
politics at the moment
is | 1:01:03 | 1:01:04 | |
that in the same way
as the far right are | 1:01:04 | 1:01:07 | |
deeply unpleasant,
so are | 1:01:07 | 1:01:08 | |
the far left, and the far left... | 1:01:08 | 1:01:10 | |
Do you accept that, Maggie Jones? | 1:01:10 | 1:01:12 | |
I'm sorry, I'm not
sure the point that | 1:01:12 | 1:01:14 | |
is being made. | 1:01:14 | 1:01:15 | |
I think the point that is
being made is that the | 1:01:15 | 1:01:18 | |
problem is right across the board
and that is what we really need to | 1:01:18 | 1:01:21 | |
tackle and, you know,
women and all better people need | 1:01:21 | 1:01:24 | |
to get together and stamp this
bad behaviour out. | 1:01:24 | 1:01:26 | |
The point I was making
is that the abuse that | 1:01:26 | 1:01:28 | |
Nus Ghani received
was | 1:01:28 | 1:01:29 | |
very much from the far
left in the country. | 1:01:29 | 1:01:31 | |
And that is the point
I was trying to make about that. | 1:01:31 | 1:01:34 | |
But I agree on the
central point of that | 1:01:34 | 1:01:36 | |
there is an issue with this
throughout every political party, | 1:01:36 | 1:01:39 | |
no party can be complacent about it. | 1:01:40 | 1:01:41 | |
How do we solve it very quickly? | 1:01:41 | 1:01:43 | |
In a sentence, solve
the problem for me. | 1:01:43 | 1:01:48 | |
I think | 1:01:48 | 1:01:49 | |
bringing the evidence
to the fore is a start. | 1:01:49 | 1:01:51 | |
I think people taking action
when the perpetrators are | 1:01:51 | 1:01:53 | |
exposed, they need to be... | 1:01:53 | 1:01:55 | |
Action needs to be
taken against them. | 1:01:55 | 1:01:56 | |
Gareth Johnson? | 1:01:56 | 1:01:57 | |
Better vetting procedures,
quite frankly. | 1:01:57 | 1:02:04 | |
For people that will be taking up
responsible positions. | 1:02:04 | 1:02:06 | |
Lovely. | 1:02:06 | 1:02:07 | |
That is all we have time
for from the South East | 1:02:07 | 1:02:10 | |
this week. | 1:02:10 | 1:02:11 | |
My thanks to our guests for today,
Baroness Maggie Jones and | 1:02:11 | 1:02:14 | |
Gareth Johnson. | 1:02:14 | 1:02:15 | |
Natalie will be here next week
with all of the political | 1:02:15 | 1:02:15 | |
With that, it's back to Sarah. | 1:02:16 | 1:02:25 | |
Now, the much anticipated
EU Withdrawal Bill, | 1:02:25 | 1:02:27 | |
which will transfer EU law into UK
law in preparation for Brexit, | 1:02:27 | 1:02:31 | |
is expected to be debated
by MPs later next month. | 1:02:31 | 1:02:35 | |
Critics have called it a "power
grab" as it introduces so-called | 1:02:35 | 1:02:38 | |
Henry VIII powers for Whitehall
to amend some laws without | 1:02:38 | 1:02:41 | |
consulting parliament,
and it faces fierce resistance | 1:02:41 | 1:02:45 | |
from opposition parties
as well as many on the government's | 1:02:45 | 1:02:48 | |
own backbenches, with 300 amendments
and 54 new clauses tabled on it. | 1:02:48 | 1:02:53 | |
We're joined now by the Conservative
MP Anna Soubry who has been a strong | 1:02:53 | 1:02:57 | |
critic of the legislation. | 1:02:57 | 1:03:01 | |
Thank you very much for joining us.
Before we talk about the withdrawal | 1:03:01 | 1:03:06 | |
bill, I would like to bring up with
you that the Prime Minister has just | 1:03:06 | 1:03:10 | |
sent a letter to the Commons Speaker
John Bercow asking for an | 1:03:10 | 1:03:14 | |
independent body to be established
to investigate claims of sexual | 1:03:14 | 1:03:19 | |
harassment in Parliament. What are
your thoughts on that? A very good | 1:03:19 | 1:03:23 | |
idea, sounds like a great deal of
common sense. I had already this | 1:03:23 | 1:03:28 | |
morning sent a request to the
speaker asking for an urgent | 1:03:28 | 1:03:31 | |
statement from the Leader of the
House as to what could now be done | 1:03:31 | 1:03:35 | |
to make sure that any complaints
actually against anybody working in | 1:03:35 | 1:03:41 | |
Parliament, to extend the
protections that workers throughout | 1:03:41 | 1:03:44 | |
the rest of businesses and in other
workplaces have, they should now be | 1:03:44 | 1:03:48 | |
extended into Parliament and asking
for an urgent statement from the | 1:03:48 | 1:03:52 | |
leader. Clearly the PM is well onto
this and it is a good idea. We have | 1:03:52 | 1:03:57 | |
to make sure everybody who works in
Parliament enjoys exactly the same | 1:03:57 | 1:04:01 | |
protections as other workers, so I
welcome this. This should maybe have | 1:04:01 | 1:04:06 | |
happened a long time ago. We hear
stories of harassment that has been | 1:04:06 | 1:04:11 | |
going on for decades, but until now
it has been difficult to work out | 1:04:11 | 1:04:14 | |
who you could complain to about it.
It is my understanding that my Chief | 1:04:14 | 1:04:20 | |
Whip and the previous deputy Chief
Whip, and Milton, shared that view | 1:04:20 | 1:04:24 | |
and have shared that view for some
time but found it difficult to get | 1:04:24 | 1:04:29 | |
all the agreement necessary. Anyway,
we are where we are and we are | 1:04:29 | 1:04:33 | |
making that progress, but | 1:04:33 | 1:04:45 | |
my Chief Whip and the previous
deputy Chief Whip wanted this done | 1:04:45 | 1:04:48 | |
some time ago. That is an
interesting point. Let's move on to | 1:04:48 | 1:04:50 | |
the much anticipated EU withdrawal
bill which will finally be debated. | 1:04:50 | 1:04:52 | |
You have put your name to an
amendment which is calling for a | 1:04:52 | 1:04:55 | |
vote on the final agreement in
essence, do you really believe that | 1:04:55 | 1:04:58 | |
that will be a meaningful both
offered to the Commons? Yes, if you | 1:04:58 | 1:05:01 | |
look at the terms of the amendment,
it would deliver exactly that. It | 1:05:01 | 1:05:07 | |
would give members of Parliament the
opportunity to debated and voted on | 1:05:07 | 1:05:12 | |
it. It would be an effective piece
of legislation and would go through | 1:05:12 | 1:05:16 | |
both houses and should be done. One
of the problems with this process is | 1:05:16 | 1:05:21 | |
that Parliament has been excluded
from the sort of debate and | 1:05:21 | 1:05:25 | |
decisions that would have enabled
the government to move forward in | 1:05:25 | 1:05:30 | |
progress and form a consensus so we
get the very best Brexit deal. We | 1:05:30 | 1:05:40 | |
have been excluded, that has been
wrong in my view, but by the end we | 1:05:40 | 1:05:43 | |
should not be excluded. The
government have made it clear that | 1:05:43 | 1:05:45 | |
whilst there may well be a boat if
you win on this amendment, it will | 1:05:45 | 1:05:48 | |
be a take it or leave it vote. This
is a deal you should accept, or | 1:05:48 | 1:05:53 | |
there will be no deal. If you look
at the amendment we put forward | 1:05:53 | 1:06:00 | |
there will be other alternatives.
This is all hypothetical because we | 1:06:00 | 1:06:03 | |
want a good deal and it is difficult
to see that the government would not | 1:06:03 | 1:06:07 | |
bring a good deal to the House in
any event. But this is hypothetical, | 1:06:07 | 1:06:13 | |
it would mean Parliament would say
to government, go back and seek an | 1:06:13 | 1:06:18 | |
extension as we know it is there in
Article 50. It is perfectly possible | 1:06:18 | 1:06:24 | |
with the agreement of the other
members of the EU to seek an | 1:06:24 | 1:06:28 | |
extension so we continue the
negotiations and we get a deal that | 1:06:28 | 1:06:32 | |
is good for our country. It keeps
all options open and that is the | 1:06:32 | 1:06:36 | |
most important thing. How many
Conservative MPs really would take | 1:06:36 | 1:06:41 | |
that option in those circumstances?
It is only if you get enough votes | 1:06:41 | 1:06:46 | |
that you would be able to ask the
government to go back and | 1:06:46 | 1:06:49 | |
re-negotiate. | 1:06:49 | 1:06:59 | |
Have you for that? For give me, but
you are jumping way down the line. I | 1:07:02 | 1:07:06 | |
am talking about an amendment that
keeps the options open. I am not | 1:07:06 | 1:07:08 | |
speculating as to what would happen,
I am not going there, it is far too | 1:07:08 | 1:07:11 | |
speculative. Let's get this bill in
good shape. The principle of this | 1:07:11 | 1:07:15 | |
bill is right and we need to put
into British domestic law existing | 1:07:15 | 1:07:20 | |
EU laws and regulations into our
substantive law. We all agree that | 1:07:20 | 1:07:25 | |
must happen. It is the means by
which we do it that causes problems | 1:07:25 | 1:07:30 | |
and we have this argument and debate
about what we call the endgame. I am | 1:07:30 | 1:07:37 | |
sure we will talk about this many
more times before we get to that | 1:07:37 | 1:07:40 | |
vote. I will turn to our panel of
political experts. Listening to the | 1:07:40 | 1:07:46 | |
tone of what the remainders are
trying to achieve with the EU | 1:07:46 | 1:07:52 | |
withdrawal bill, will be achieved?
You can hear that tussled there, | 1:07:52 | 1:07:57 | |
they want the maximum space and room
for Parliament to have a say. But | 1:07:57 | 1:08:02 | |
they have to be careful. The reason
is that clock is ticking and if you | 1:08:02 | 1:08:08 | |
have a situation which may seem to
be more interested in finding | 1:08:08 | 1:08:14 | |
different things to object to and
saying no to, it is not getting a | 1:08:14 | 1:08:18 | |
good deal and it does not look good
for the remainders in this argument | 1:08:18 | 1:08:22 | |
and they will have to come through
with their proposals. I do not mind | 1:08:22 | 1:08:27 | |
Parliament saying it should have a
big say, but what do you do if | 1:08:27 | 1:08:30 | |
Parliament says this is not good
enough? The government must simply | 1:08:30 | 1:08:36 | |
say, I am sorry we have run out of
time. The 27 will say they cannot be | 1:08:36 | 1:08:42 | |
bothered to have another round
either. They have to be strong, but | 1:08:42 | 1:08:46 | |
realistic about what their role in
this is. Do you think the people | 1:08:46 | 1:08:50 | |
putting this amendment who say they
want a binding vote in parliament | 1:08:50 | 1:08:55 | |
are doing it because they think
Parliament should have a say or | 1:08:55 | 1:08:59 | |
because they want to obstruct it?
They do not think people should have | 1:08:59 | 1:09:04 | |
a say in the first place, they think
people got it wrong, so they need | 1:09:04 | 1:09:08 | |
more clever people than the voters
to have final say. Or they believed | 1:09:08 | 1:09:16 | |
taking back control means Parliament
should have the final say. | 1:09:16 | 1:09:19 | |
Parliament said they would like to
give that decision back to the | 1:09:19 | 1:09:22 | |
people. This is the issue. It seems
to me that people like Anna Soubry | 1:09:22 | 1:09:28 | |
are trying to delay of the
transition period a bit longer. | 1:09:28 | 1:09:32 | |
These negotiations will take as long
as they have got. The EU will take | 1:09:32 | 1:09:37 | |
it to the wire and if we do not get
a decent deal, and one of the | 1:09:37 | 1:09:45 | |
reasons is the level of incompetence
on this government's part I have to | 1:09:45 | 1:09:48 | |
say and the other one will be the
people who want to remain | 1:09:48 | 1:09:53 | |
undermining them. They undermined
the government at every single stage | 1:09:53 | 1:09:59 | |
and they undermine Britain's
interests. It is the timing of all | 1:09:59 | 1:10:03 | |
of this that is crucial and whether
the government can get a deal in | 1:10:03 | 1:10:06 | |
time. There will be a meaningful
vote, whether it is an shined in | 1:10:06 | 1:10:12 | |
legislation or not, there cannot be
an historic development as big as | 1:10:12 | 1:10:17 | |
this without Parliament having a
meaningful vote. I meaningful, | 1:10:17 | 1:10:22 | |
having the power to either stop it
or endorse it. You cannot have a | 1:10:22 | 1:10:27 | |
government doing something like this
with no vote in the House of | 1:10:27 | 1:10:30 | |
commons. When you say it will go to
the last minute I completely agree, | 1:10:30 | 1:10:37 | |
but last-minute in reality means
next summer. It has got to get | 1:10:37 | 1:10:42 | |
through the European Parliament and
the Westminster Parliament and quite | 1:10:42 | 1:10:45 | |
a few others as well. The trouble
with invoking Parliament is if it is | 1:10:45 | 1:10:52 | |
driven solely by remain, I would
love to say what people in the | 1:10:52 | 1:10:57 | |
league side think. I disagree with
Julia, I do not think you could say | 1:10:57 | 1:11:04 | |
people had their say and the terms
with which we leave are left open | 1:11:04 | 1:11:08 | |
and only the government should have
a say in it, Parliament clearly | 1:11:08 | 1:11:12 | |
should have a say in it. Do we want
a good deal or not? It does not mean | 1:11:12 | 1:11:20 | |
anything if you do not do it by next
summer I suggest. Does that leave | 1:11:20 | 1:11:26 | |
Parliament any room for changing the
deal or is it simply take it or | 1:11:26 | 1:11:30 | |
leave it? It will have to have that
rule because it cannot simply be | 1:11:30 | 1:11:35 | |
another of these binary votes were
you accept the deal or no Deal. | 1:11:35 | 1:11:38 | |
There has to be some space. How can
a few MPs in the House of Commons | 1:11:38 | 1:11:44 | |
change a deal that has been agreed
by the member states? Because of the | 1:11:44 | 1:11:50 | |
sequence, a huge if by the way, if
they vote down the deal that the | 1:11:50 | 1:11:55 | |
government has negotiated, the
government will have to re-negotiate | 1:11:55 | 1:11:59 | |
or there will have to be an
election. This will be a moment of | 1:11:59 | 1:12:03 | |
huge crisis, our government not
getting through its much topped | 1:12:03 | 1:12:05 | |
about... It is a mini Catalonia. I
think it would be as big as | 1:12:05 | 1:12:15 | |
Catalonia, but with the implication
that there would have to be a | 1:12:15 | 1:12:18 | |
practical change in the deal because
if Parliament has not supported | 1:12:18 | 1:12:21 | |
it... It is a remain fantasy that
this deal can be put off and off | 1:12:21 | 1:12:27 | |
until they get something that is as
close to remaining as they can | 1:12:27 | 1:12:31 | |
possibly get. I am very much for
trying to get the best and avoiding | 1:12:31 | 1:12:36 | |
the worst, but there is an unreality
to that position if you keep trying | 1:12:36 | 1:12:43 | |
to do it again and again, at some
point people will want clarity. I | 1:12:43 | 1:12:49 | |
labour putting forward a realistic
proposition? I thought Hilary Benn | 1:12:49 | 1:12:54 | |
was very realistic this morning, I
wish he was more in the driving seat | 1:12:54 | 1:12:59 | |
of Labour policy. He made clear
where he disagreed and he made clear | 1:12:59 | 1:13:04 | |
where he thought the negotiations
had gone off track or were bogged | 1:13:04 | 1:13:07 | |
down. I worry a bit about the Labour
position being incoherent, but that | 1:13:07 | 1:13:15 | |
is kept that way by the present
leadership because as far as they | 1:13:15 | 1:13:19 | |
are concerned the government is
suffering enough, why should they | 1:13:19 | 1:13:23 | |
have a position? Hilary Benn said we
needed to have clarity about the | 1:13:23 | 1:13:28 | |
timetable. It is like reading an
insurance contract and finding the | 1:13:28 | 1:13:32 | |
bit where you might get away with
it. That is not a policy. | 1:13:32 | 1:13:35 | |
That is not a policy. | 1:13:35 | 1:13:37 | |
That's all for today. | 1:13:37 | 1:13:39 | |
Join me again next Sunday
at 11 here on BBC One. | 1:13:39 | 1:13:41 | |
Until then, bye bye. | 1:13:41 | 1:13:46 |