05/11/2017 Sunday Politics South East


05/11/2017

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LineFromTo

Good morning, everyone,

and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

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And this is your guide to everything

that's happening in the world

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of politics this Sunday morning.

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On today's show:

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Theresa May's right-hand man

Damian Green has denied claims that

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police found pornography

on a computer in his office in 2008.

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He says the allegations by a former

police chief are "political smears."

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With claims of sexual harassment

at Westminster growing by the day,

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can either Theresa May

or Jeremy Corbyn do anything to get

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to grips with a scandal

threatening to engulf

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the entire political class?

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We'll ask a minister and senior

member of the Shadow Cabinet.

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And some on the left of politics

have been gathering to mark 100

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And in the South East:

have been gathering to mark 100

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Impossible and nonsensical -

that's the reaction

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from Conservative MPs and council

leaders to their own government's

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new housing targets.

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So how do we solve the crisis?

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So there's plenty of

explosive political news

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to get you in the mood

for bonfire night -

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and with me as usual,

three journalists who know quite

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a bit about parliamentary plots -

if rather less about

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gunpowder and treason.

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It's Tom Newton Dunn,

Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

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So what are the big political

stories making the news this Sunday?

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Well, the papers are brimming

with further allegations against MPs

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in the sexual harassment scandal,

which according to one newspaper has

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left Westminster frozen in fear.

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First Secretary of State Damian

Green, already under

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investigation over allegations -

which he strongly denies -

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of propositioning a female activist,

is the subject of new claims that

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police discovered pornography

on a computer in his Westminster

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office in 2008.

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Mr Green denies the allegation,

made by former senior

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police officer Bob Quick,

saying it is "completely untrue,"

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and adding that he is the victim

of disreputable "political smears."

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Michael Fallon, who resigned

as Defence Secretary this week

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over his past behaviour,

is also subject to fresh claims

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he lunged at a female journalist

in 2003 after a lunch.

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Labour is facing questions

over its handling of sexual

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misconduct allegations.

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This morning Shadow Cabinet minister

Dawn Butler refused to be drawn

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on whether Jeremy Corbyn knew

about alleged misconduct by MP

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Kelvin Hopkins when he was promoted

to the Shadow Cabinet.

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And there is a reminder that normal

political life goes on,

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with reports that the Cabinet has

agreed to put housing at the heart

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of Philip Hammond's upcoming Budget.

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Well, let's hear from

Home Secretary Amber Rudd now -

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she was on the Andrew Marr Show

earlier talking about the claims

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against her Cabinet colleague Damian

Green.

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Absolutely not. I think it is

something that will take place in

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terms of clearing out Westminster of

that sort of behaviour, and I think

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that Westminster afterwards,

including the Government, will be

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better for it. When we are confident

that men and women can work any

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respectful environment and people on

the receiving end of abuse of power

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can come forward. That will be a

positive thing.

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Let's see what our panel make of

this fairly explosive week. Good

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morning to all of you. Starting with

you, Steve. Not a party political

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issue but the Tories are in

Government. How much harder for them

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is it an Labour?

Always harder when

you are in Government because it

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makes governing almost impossible.

And the wider context is a Prime

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Minister who lost her overall

majority a few months ago and

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actually that is the context of

everything. When you are having to

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deal with the scandal of such

unpredictability, where the

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terms are so imprecise, it is a

"lunge", a resignation issue, to use

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that term, and nightmare. I don't

think it is fatal. Scandals rarely

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bring down governments, but it makes

governing for Theresa May a form of

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political health.

Isabel Oakeshott,

Damian Green has denied all

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allegations made against him, but

there are more this morning. He is

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being investigated by the Cabinet

Office at the moment. If Theresa May

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were to effectively lose her Deputy

Prime Minister, has serious without

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the?

I think very serious indeed. I

think it is very significant and

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strange he was not defended in the

Home Secretary Amber Rudd in that

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clip we saw today, she didn't say I

am certain he will survive, and I am

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beginning to feel that Damian may

not survive this. We don't know

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whether it is the last of the

allegations that may come out in

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relation to him. It seems to me that

the allegations were previously of a

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rather minor order, but this seems

to have escalated. And I think one

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of the big problems for Theresa May,

and there are the many at the

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moment, for months we have been

saying that this Government has no

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bandwidth to do anything except

Brexit and right now she can't even

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do Brexit. What is the point of it

all?

It is important to make clear

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not only that Damian Green denies

all of these allegations, but the

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computer mentioned was in a shared

office so there is no reason it

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would definitely be his

# No guarantee it would definitely

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be his. But we have had two MPs on

television this morning, Anna

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Soubry, saying he should stand down.

There is an awful lot going on here.

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It is not just a pretty awful sexual

harassment scandal. There are also

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without a doubt MPs, police

officers, going about settling

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scores. For me I have to say for our

pretty discredited police officer

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Bob Quick, to make accusations

against serving Cabinet minister, to

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suggest he should go for extreme

pornography on computers he may or

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may not have known, it may be

extremely distasteful but it is

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alarming for democracy to have

ex-police officers like this coming

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in and trying to play with

democracy. Some politicians are also

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meeting claims, some for the right

reasons to get the allegations out

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there and so on but others for their

own agendas and all of this puts the

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Prime Minister in an unbelievably

hard situation. I agree with Steve

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and Isabel, she desperately needs

two show leadership in all this, but

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every way she could turn there are

incredible downfalls, people blaming

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her for trying to get to the bottom

of all this. It is very people who

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she is relying on for her

leadership, the very Tory MPs the

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support she can't lose.

It is not

just the Tory party and of course

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Jeremy Corbyn will be making a

speech later today where this will

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inevitably and there are accusations

about how the senior leadership in

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the Labour Party have handled this.

What about that situation?

Yes, but

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the Government is much harder

because you are meant to be doing

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10,000 other things at the same

time. This is about a deregulated

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work environment. For all those who

say, I hate the way Britain is too

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regulated, this is what happens in a

deregulated work environment. The

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House of Commons has no HR or

whatever, MPs, advisors, so, MPs

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actually don't have much power but

they do have power over who the

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point and how to treat them. I think

this is the way forward in terms of

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the practical outcome, but it is

across the political spectrum.

But

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it is unclear what it will be. Can

the party sort this out?

I'm not

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sure I entirely agree, Steve, you

cannot regulate all human

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interaction and a lot of these

stories have been about interactions

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between politicians and journalists

alike, who have gone out for lunch,

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chosen to drink, presumably to

create an informal atmosphere, and

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at what point is a step towards

somebody to say goodbye, a peck on

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the cheek or whatever, a lunge? You

can't regulate that sort of thing.

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Throughout the programme will come

back to some of these things and how

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they might be regulated.

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Now, the Home Secretary has

also today been talking

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about what she calls the "moral

duty" of social media companies

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to stop child sexual exploitation,

ahead of a meeting with her US

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counterparts this week.

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We're joined now by the Home Office

minister Sarah Newton -

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she's in our Truro studio.

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Thanks very much for coming in to

speak the first night. I want to

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talk to you about the Government's

efforts to tackle child pornography,

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but let's pick up on some of the

sexual harassment issues at

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Westminster first. Two of your

parliamentary colleagues this

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morning saying they think the first

Secretary of State Damian Green

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should step down whilst being

investigated. Do you agree?

Look, he

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has vigorously denied these

accusations, and the Cabinet Office

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is investigating these accusations,

so we do have processes for when

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ministers have these accusations

made against them so they are

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properly investigated. And that is

what is going on at the moment.

Is

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that process people can be confident

in? He is effectively being

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investigated by Jeremy Heywood, one

of his colleagues.

This is a tried

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and tested process that has stood

the test of time, and it is

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important...

Has it? Surely what we

are learning is it has not stood the

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test of time and that in fact

allegations like this have been

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swept under the carpet and ignored

for years and years in Westminster,

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exactly what we are learning right

now.

I think you are conflating two

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things they are, and what we really

do need to do is look at the whole

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range of allegations people have

been making, and make sure

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Parliament is a safe place for

people to work, a respectful

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environment for people who have been

subjected to harassment or bullying

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or inappropriate behaviour, so that

they feel confident to come forward

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knowing they will be listened to,

that there will be an open and

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transparent and fair to everyone

concerned process for getting to the

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bottom of it, and that is exactly

what the Prime Minister and the

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Leader of the Cows have set out,

Prime Minister's meeting with all

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the leaders of the parties tomorrow

to set out a proper process so we

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can modernise the work environment

at Westminster -- leader of the

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House have set out.

You think Damian

Green should remain in the Cabinet

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well being investigated?

That will

be down to Sir Jeremy Heywood. If he

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thinks the misdemeanours have a

basis, that he should stand aside,

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that will be the recommendation. I

will not second the inquiry on what

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Sir Jeremy Heywood finds.

You were

in the Whips' Office yourself for a

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year. And much has been said this

week of the whips being in receipt

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of a lot of information about bad

behaviour, and instead of reporting

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it to authorities they were using it

as ammunition. Was that your

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experience?

Absolutely not. I was at

the Whips' Office up to 2015 and,

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yes, I heard about the rumours of a

black spreadsheet, and I can

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certainly say I never saw such a

thing. How I went about my business

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as a whip is really twofold. It is

quite a technical job in many ways,

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about of the Government through the

House, working with the House

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authorities, the opposition. Also...

Did you ever hear rumours of these

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people's bad behaviour?

Sorry?

Did

you ever hear rumours of MPs

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misbehaving, sexual harassment,

allegations are that?

If anybody had

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brought a complaint to me about the

behaviour of one of the MPs who were

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in my flock, I would take that

really seriously, but bull-mac, that

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didn't happen.

You said nobody

brought you a complaint. Did you

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hear rumours? -- but no, that didn't

happen.

About the members of my

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flock? Absolutely not.

Is that the

MPs you were specifically in charge

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of?

I did not have that experience

at all.

Let's move on and talk about

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the Home Secretary's trip to

Washington this week, where she will

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urge tech companies to go further

and faster on online child abuse. We

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have heard a lot from this

Government urging these companies to

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do something. One specific ideas of

what they could do, do you have a

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clear idea of what you are asking

from tech companies?

Absolutely

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right. As you know, this horrendous

crime of child sexual exploitation

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and grooming is constantly evolving

as the opportunities for the

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perpetrators arise. They are now

using live streaming, different

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sorts of platforms, which are

largely controlled by the big

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companies in America. What we really

want them to do is to step up and

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use their huge expertise, used the

huge money they have got, to help

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find technological solutions to read

their sites and rid the opportunity

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of these paedophiles to be able to

groom young people. We need the

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politicians in America to exert

pressure, as well as other

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companies, because these are global

problems. We are not going to solve

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this problem in the UK alone. We

have made a lot of progress, working

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with Facebook and other companies as

well, but we really need to keep one

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step ahead of the technology, one

step ahead of the perpetrators, who

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are using these opportunities to

commit horrendous crimes.

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It was back in 2014 Theresa May for

the Internet companies to do more in

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terms of child abuse online and we

have not seen significant action,

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and it does not appear these kind of

calls from the Government actually

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make difference.

Well, at the moment we are seeing

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the police being able to make about

400 arrests per month, about 500

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children being safeguarded. The

Government itself is investing a lot

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of money in new technology like the

project Arachnid, and making sure

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the police have the specialist

resources they need to go

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undercover, and absolutely find

these perpetrators and bring them to

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justice, but we do need to

constantly have the engagement and

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support of the companies themselves

to invest in further technologies to

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prevent this from happening. As you

say, we have made progress but we

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need to see yet more.

Sarah Newton,

thank you very much for speaking to

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us today.

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Michael Fallon's decision

to resign this week,

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saying his past conduct with women

fell short of the standard expected

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of the Armed Forces, led

to something of a minor reshuffle.

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And the Prime Minister took

Westminster by surprise

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when she announced his replacement,

former Chief Whip and relative

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newcomer to the ministerial

ranks, Gavin Williamson.

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Here he is speaking on the day

of his appointment.

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It's an immense privilege to have

been appointed Secretary

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of State for Defence,

and what we need to be doing

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is continuing to focus

on countering Daesh,

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making sure that our national

security is at the forefront

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of everything that we do,

and we have some of the world's

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greatest armed services,

and it's such a privilege to be able

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to work with them.

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Gavin Williamson, who you saw there,

arrives at the Ministry of Defence

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at a challenging time

for UK defence.

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The Government has promised

an above-inflation increase

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in spending every year

but the Ministry of Defence

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is already committed to finding

£20 billion of savings

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over the next ten years.

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The Cabinet Office is currently

conducting a security review

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which will look at military

capabilities and funding up to 2022,

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while there are continuing

reports of shortages

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of manpower and equipment.

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And if Labour were to win power,

questions persist over

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what a Jeremy Corbyn premiership

would mean for defence budget

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and the traditional cornerstones

of UK defence policy

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like Trident and Nato.

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Well we're joined now

by the Shadow Defence

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secretary, Nia Griffith.

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Well we're joined now

by the Shadow Defence

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secretary, Nia Griffith.

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Let's talk about defence spending

first. Would Labour commit to the

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same thing this Government has which

is an above inflation increase in

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spending every year?

We've been

absolutely clear about that. First

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and foremost we'd meet our

commitment of spending at least 2%

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of GDP on defence as is our Nato

commitment and we would match the

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Government's year-on-year 0.5%

increase above inflation. This is

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really important. Labour's always

had a good strong track record of

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spending on defence.

Jeremy Corbyn

seems to have a different view.

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Speaking at a protest in 2010 he

said Labour wanted to fight all the

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cuts except those in the Armed

Forces where we want to see a few

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more cuts taking place. He doesn't

seem committed to defence spending?

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In the manifesto for this year's

election, 2017, he and John

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McDonnell have been absolutely clear

we support the exact words I've been

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using now, at least 2% of the spend

of GDP spent on defence.

Jeremy

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Corbyn's changed his mind on that?

He's been very clear about that and

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it was in our manifesto this year.

You criticised the Government on

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whether they meet their 2%

commitment on defence. You saying

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they were fiddling the figures

because they were including

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pensions. You would strip that out

and snake sure there's 2% spending

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on defence which doesn't include

pensions?

Technically, the

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Government would argue you are

allowed to include pensions by the

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Nato rules. But we've been very

clear, really, when you're talking

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about defence spending it should

mean defence. When you look at the

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last year of the Labour Government

we spent 2.5% GDP on defence. We are

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very much committed to looking at

what we need in our defence budget

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and looking to the problems they

have now where they can't meet the

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commitments they've made.

You would

sprip pensions out of those figures.

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In order to live up to these

commitments you have to find an

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extra billion for the defence

budgets because we're not

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calculating pensions anymore?

John

McDonnell is well aware of what they

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are doing. Putting in the conflict

resolution money which Gordon Brown

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kept separate. He is well aware of

the figures and the difficulties. We

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are certainly very committed to a

defence budget that really does make

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a difference.

I'm not clear whether

you're telling me it will be 2% 69

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spending, excluding pensions?

We

want it to be 2% of GDP as in the

0:19:020:19:08

way Labour always calculate it had

up until 2010, not including

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pensions.

A significant increase in

military spending?

We are talking

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about making sure the spending we

need is there because, at the

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current situation, we have with the

current Government, they are

0:19:210:19:24

overstretched. Even the very caution

National Audit Office says they are

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at immense risk of not being able to

meet the expenditure commitment the

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they have made. Others talk about a

black hole. You mentioned it that

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£20 billion. There is a real issue

we have to address.

To you know what

0:19:400:19:47

it will cost, how muchedingsal funds

will have to be found?

We have to

0:19:470:19:51

rook at what are the needs at the

time as well as the facts we want to

0:19:510:19:57

make that 2% commitment not

including things which have just

0:19:570:20:01

been brushed in now by the

Conservative Government.

Let's move

0:20:010:20:05

on to a different aspect of defence.

There is a treaty banning nuclear

0:20:050:20:11

weapons opened at the UN for

signatories. 122 countries have

0:20:110:20:14

already signed it. Would an incoming

Labour Government sign that treaty?

0:20:140:20:20

The important point here is there

was an Is inned opportunity for

0:20:200:20:23

there to be observers from the UK.

There should have been at that

0:20:230:20:28

treaty talks.

That doesn't change

the calculation whether or not an

0:20:280:20:33

incoming Labour Government would

sign that treaty?

We are committed

0:20:330:20:40

to a strong multi-lateral disarming

programme. That's what we've seen

0:20:400:20:45

missing.

This is a multilateral

approach to try to get rid of

0:20:450:20:49

nuclear weapons. What you say you

want. Would a Labour Government sign

0:20:490:20:53

that treaty?

You we have to look at

how you go about things. We need toe

0:20:530:20:58

somebody clear we want to

de-escalate tensions across the

0:20:580:21:01

world. Work with other nuclear

partners to help stop the

0:21:010:21:06

proliferation of nuclear weapons. We

want to work with those countries

0:21:060:21:10

who feel very strongly about the

treaty so we can work together. We

0:21:100:21:15

have to do that in a multilateral

framework.

This is a multi-lateral

0:21:150:21:22

disarmament framework. Under the

auspice Is of the UN disto see how

0:21:220:21:26

else it could be organised. This is

a great opportunity for you, who

0:21:260:21:29

have been a lifelong campaigner for

disarmament.ment Labour Government

0:21:290:21:35

will be the first nuclear power to

do so, sign it and lead the way.

We

0:21:350:21:40

need to use our position to be

responsible and call for responsible

0:21:400:21:45

multi-lateral disarmamentment there

was progress made on this in the

0:21:450:21:48

eighties and nineties with

considerable amount of are heads put

0:21:480:21:51

to one side and destroyed. We need

to get back on the front foot there.

0:21:510:21:55

I don't see any presence by the UK

Government at the moment on that

0:21:550:21:58

aagain da. It is not helpful for the

nukes leer nations to be separated

0:21:580:22:03

from the non-nuclear nation in the

these debates.

That's why I don't

0:22:030:22:09

understand why you're not taking the

opportunity to say a Labour

0:22:090:22:13

Government would Take The Stand.

We

should wok together and we should

0:22:130:22:17

use our position as a nuclear power

to work for a multilateral

0:22:170:22:22

disarmament programme.

You were very

clear in your manifesto that the

0:22:220:22:26

Labour Party would keep Trident for

the meantime.

Abs will yously.

We

0:22:260:22:30

know throughout his life, Jeremy

Corbyn's long wanted to get rid of

0:22:300:22:33

it. He signed up to the manifesto

saying Trident would stay. Has he

0:22:330:22:40

changed his minds?

The important

thing is that was a manifesto

0:22:400:22:45

Jeremy, John McDonnell's agreed to.

We stood on it in 2017 because that

0:22:450:22:49

is the Labour Party position.

Absolutely. I'm asking if the Labour

0:22:490:22:54

Leader really believes in that

position?

He believes in democracy

0:22:540:22:57

in the party. That is the Labour

Party position. I don't see that

0:22:570:23:00

position changing at all. He has

said very clearly that he accepts

0:23:000:23:04

that is our Labour Party position.

And that is the manifesto we've

0:23:040:23:08

stood on and will continue to stand

on.

I'll need to ask questions about

0:23:080:23:13

sexual harassment in Westminster. It

is as much as inissue for the Labour

0:23:130:23:18

Party as the Conservative. It was

not clear listening to Dawn Butler,

0:23:180:23:22

your colleague on The Andrew Marr

Show this morning, she was asked

0:23:220:23:25

whether or not the leadership knew

about allegations by Kelvin Hopkins.

0:23:250:23:29

Do you know?

I absolutely do not

know at this moment in time. That's

0:23:290:23:34

why there has to be an

investigation. It is extremely

0:23:340:23:36

important to find out what the

allegations were, exactly what

0:23:360:23:41

happened, who was told and who told

what to whom. Then we will be in a

0:23:410:23:46

position to see what the situation

is. In the meantime, Kelvin Hopkins

0:23:460:23:50

has been suspended which is the

cricket thing to do.

Rosie Winterton

0:23:500:23:57

has been outspoken about what she

let the leadership know. If it is

0:23:570:24:02

the case the leadership did know

about these allegations should he

0:24:020:24:05

have been put into the Shadow

Cabinet?

The real question is who

0:24:050:24:09

did know what when.

But what I'm

asking you is...

I am anot going to

0:24:090:24:15

speculate whether there was an if or

whatever. We need to know how that

0:24:150:24:20

information was transmitted. Was it

put in writing. What it made clear,

0:24:200:24:24

who was told what, when. Until we

have a full investigation it would

0:24:240:24:28

be inappropriate to comment. What is

absolute lie clear, we need to get

0:24:280:24:32

this right for the future. We must

have proper procedures so we deal

0:24:320:24:36

with incidents as and when they

occur. And we deal with them

0:24:360:24:41

prepperly in a way which gets to the

bottom of the issue and deals with

0:24:410:24:44

it properly.

Why should anyone have

confidence the Labour Party will

0:24:440:24:49

treat issues that seriously when,

firstly there's a question whether

0:24:490:24:53

they knew about Kelvin hop kips and

others have been dissuaded from

0:24:530:24:58

making complaints. Knots just Bex

Bailey. Monica Lennon said when she

0:24:580:25:03

was harassed at a party senior

figures in the Labour Party told her

0:25:030:25:08

it was her own fault. It seems as if

there hasn't been a culture within

0:25:080:25:14

Labour to make a complaint.

That's

why we're having a thorough review

0:25:140:25:20

of procedures. We brought in new

procedures in July. We need to

0:25:200:25:24

ensure there's a proper helpline

available. We are appointing an

0:25:240:25:30

independent organisation which will

deal with allegations first-hand so

0:25:300:25:32

nobody has to go to somebody they

think might know other people, be

0:25:320:25:36

friends with other people. They can

go somewhere completely confidential

0:25:360:25:41

and private. These are often things

you can't want to tell your cross

0:25:410:25:46

friends about. We will appoint that

organisation and make sure people

0:25:460:25:50

can go there and access to it is

made widely known. It is very, very

0:25:500:25:55

important when people come into a

job, they know if anything does

0:25:550:25:58

happen, they will be able to

complain. Whether they are ordinary

0:25:580:26:02

party members or working in

Westminster.

Thank you for talking

0:26:020:26:08

to us

0:26:080:26:08

For Thank you for talking to us some

0:26:080:26:10

on the left of politics,

0:26:100:26:12

this weekend wasn't just a chance

0:26:120:26:14

to mark the anniversary

of the failed gunpowder

0:26:140:26:16

plot here in Britain,

but also events in Russia 100 years

0:26:160:26:19

ago, when Bolshevik revolutionaries

led by Lenin seized power

0:26:190:26:21

and ushered in seven

decades of Communist rule.

0:26:210:26:23

For critics, that's something

to regret, not celebrate.

0:26:230:26:25

Elizabeth Glinka went to one event

in London to find out more.

0:26:250:26:26

The 7th November 1917.

0:26:310:26:33

Red Guards under the leadership

of Vladimir Lenin begin to occupy

0:26:330:26:37

Government buildings in Petrograd.

0:26:370:26:42

This uprising, known

popularly as Red October

0:26:420:26:44

because of the difference

in the Gregorian calendar,

0:26:440:26:47

was, in fact, a coup.

0:26:470:26:50

The winds of socialist change had

been blowing for some time.

0:26:500:26:54

The Tsars had resisted reform

and millions toiled in a state

0:26:540:26:59

of almost medieval surfdom.

0:26:590:27:01

Then war.

0:27:010:27:05

Nearly two million

Russians would die.

0:27:050:27:10

The revolution had really begun nine

months earlier in February 1917.

0:27:100:27:15

The world's first socialist

republic was declared.

0:27:150:27:21

October, well that

was the Bolsheviks

0:27:210:27:24

asserting their authority.

0:27:240:27:28

A hundred years on, as this

event at the TUC shows,

0:27:300:27:33

there's still plenty of people

who want to remember and even

0:27:330:27:36

celebrate those momentous events.

0:27:360:27:40

Mainly as an event in history,

0:27:400:27:43

this is an example of historical

development in action,

0:27:430:27:45

the ability of people to club

together and be able to affect

0:27:450:27:49

the discourse of history.

0:27:490:27:50

It was people's first attempt at

trying to build socialism.

0:27:500:27:53

Although there were many terrible

things that happened,

0:27:530:27:56

I think we have to try

and draw from experience.

0:27:560:27:58

Jeremy Corbyn's close friend

and adviser, Andrew Murray,

0:27:580:28:01

was chairing the opening session.

0:28:010:28:04

He didn't want to talk to us

but we did manage to speak

0:28:040:28:07

to the daughter of one of the most

famous Communists of all time.

0:28:070:28:13

TRANSLATION:

It's an historic moment

0:28:130:28:16

which opened up possibilities

for further changes

0:28:160:28:19

and allowed other people

to strive for a different world.

0:28:190:28:21

A world, which it seems,

some are still keen to push for.

0:28:210:28:25

We're growing, so there is obviously

a positive reflection.

0:28:250:28:27

There is a lot of negative

propaganda that comes

0:28:270:28:29

from the Cold War period.

0:28:290:28:31

It is harder to talk

to older people maybe.

0:28:310:28:33

But younger people

are quite receptive.

0:28:330:28:35

The events and discussions taking

place here today cover a whole range

0:28:350:28:38

of topics from women's

rights to the Third World

0:28:380:28:42

and the impact on British socialism.

0:28:420:28:44

But there's much less discussion

of the Russian Civil War,

0:28:440:28:48

the purges and the political

repression that would come later.

0:28:480:28:52

We wanted to have this conference

0:28:520:28:54

because we wanted to show it

in a positive light.

0:28:540:28:57

Whatever one's view of what happened

to the Soviet Union subsequently

0:28:570:29:01

the fact is it is important

to understand the process

0:29:010:29:05

of revolutionary change

for its own sake.

0:29:050:29:08

Red October would usher

in 70 years of communism.

0:29:090:29:13

The proletarite would rise,

find respect and security.

0:29:130:29:16

But the suppression of the peoples

of Eastern Europe, the forced labour

0:29:160:29:20

camps and the murder of hundreds

of thousands, if not millions

0:29:200:29:24

of people, make it difficult

for many to see that revolution

0:29:240:29:28

as something to celebrate.

0:29:280:29:32

That was Elizabeth Glinka reporting.

0:29:330:29:35

So is the centenary

of the Russian Revolution a cause

0:29:350:29:37

for celebration, or regret?

0:29:370:29:39

Well, to discuss this I'm

joined by former Labour

0:29:390:29:41

and Respect MP George Galloway,

and the journalist Peter Hitchens.

0:29:410:29:47

Good morning. Let me start with you

George Galloway. Is the October

0:29:470:29:52

revolution a cause for celebration?

With the, if not for the October

0:29:520:29:56

revolution, we'd been conducting

this interview in German. Though the

0:29:560:30:00

truth is this interview wouldn't be

taking place and we probably

0:30:000:30:04

wouldn't be alive for a variety of

reasons. The Soviet Union broke the

0:30:040:30:11

back of Hitler, as Mr Churchill

often owe pined in Parliament and

0:30:110:30:14

elsewhere. If not for the Soviet

Union, Hitler would have ruled. And

0:30:140:30:22

his successorsness, perhaps until

now, from Vladivostok all the way to

0:30:220:30:27

Portugal.

You say we wouldn't be

able to have this discussion. In the

0:30:270:30:32

former Soviet Union we couldn't have

this office either?

That's also

0:30:320:30:34

true. But even the...

George will be

able to say, that of course.

Even

0:30:340:30:42

the sun has spots on its face as

they used to say in the Soviet

0:30:420:30:46

Union. There is no doubt tremendous

abrasions, big crimes, a lot of

0:30:460:30:55

suffering but, if not for the

transformation, then the Soviet

0:30:550:31:05

Union, Russia's GDP increased from

1930 to 190 and the Nazi occupation.

0:31:050:31:12

And the strength that defeated

Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:120:31:19

Peter Hitchens, does it offend you

there are people celebrating 100

0:31:190:31:23

years since the Russian Revolution?

Offend? No, but in the Soviet Union,

0:31:230:31:28

in which I lived, you would not have

been able to say it was set up by a

0:31:280:31:33

cynical bitch, almost bloodless, but

engineered by the German Imperial

0:31:330:31:35

Government using -- a cynical

putsch, almost bloodless. That this

0:31:350:31:53

was the inauguration of an immensely

long period of repression,

0:31:530:31:58

brutality, secret police,

concentration camps and lies, which

0:31:580:32:02

I am likely to have seen come to an

end in my lifetime, and I cannot see

0:32:020:32:06

why anybody looking at that

disastrous country where so much

0:32:060:32:09

misery was needlessly imposed on so

many people for so long could

0:32:090:32:12

possibly celebrate the beginning of

it, which was completely avoidable,

0:32:120:32:15

and as I say was truly the result of

the cynical foreign policy and

0:32:150:32:21

intelligence operations of the

Imperial German Government is trying

0:32:210:32:23

to save it skin...

But everyone

including George Galloway

0:32:230:32:27

acknowledges the tyranny and terror

that followed.

He doesn't. He gives

0:32:270:32:32

statistics about GDP but fails to

mention the people murdered in

0:32:320:32:35

labour

0:32:350:32:42

camp... He was of course formerly a

Trotskyite and sung the praises of

0:32:420:32:48

Lenin, which I have not done and

neither have I done today. I have

0:32:480:32:52

never been a Communist, unlike Peter

Hitchens, but I do acknowledge and

0:32:520:32:56

celebrate that an entirely different

world opened up as a result of the

0:32:560:33:01

events in October 19 17. China, you

have just seen their party congress,

0:33:010:33:05

decorated with the iconography of

the Bolshevik Revolution, and China

0:33:050:33:10

is the most powerful, or soon will

be the most powerful country on the

0:33:100:33:13

earth.

With one of the most

repressive government?

I don't think

0:33:130:33:18

that is true. There is repression in

China, but...

Enormous repression in

0:33:180:33:24

China! How can you possibly argue

there is an?

China has taken more

0:33:240:33:28

people out of poverty in the last 30

years than any country, resume,

0:33:280:33:33

system, ever has -- how can you

possibly argue there is not?

All

0:33:330:33:38

despots always argue, trying to

distract your attention from the

0:33:380:33:42

mountains of skulls behind them,

their supposed economic success,

0:33:420:33:46

which generally does not turn out to

be as great as claimed. The Soviet

0:33:460:33:49

Union was an enormous pile of rust

by the time I lived there and was a

0:33:490:33:54

complete catastrophe.

Yes, that is

why it fell down. But we are talking

0:33:540:33:58

about the Revolution 100 years ago.

Is it possible to separate the two

0:33:580:34:04

events? A popular overthrowing of a

government is perhaps different from

0:34:040:34:07

the tyranny and terror that

followed.

It was not a popular

0:34:070:34:12

overthrow. You sure this Eisenstein

propaganda as if it were fact. What

0:34:120:34:16

we see was a film made afterwards.

What actually happened was a putsch

0:34:160:34:21

in the middle of the night in which

hardly anybody... Nobody has even

0:34:210:34:30

mentioned...

That German connection,

a rather more important...

Nobody

0:34:300:34:37

has even mentioned during this year

until now that there was a Russian

0:34:370:34:40

Revolution. There were two. The

first one was a genuine uprising,

0:34:400:34:45

overthrowing the old regime, and I

think we can all be glad of it. The

0:34:450:34:48

second one was a cynical for --

foreign financed putsch and it does

0:34:480:34:55

not deserve to be spoken out.

Is

that true, and Menshevik revolution

0:34:550:34:58

would have done better than a

Bolshevik one?

It is not my business

0:34:580:35:04

and entirely counterfactual fiction,

if I may...

Unlike how you open this

0:35:040:35:10

discussion.

That is the most

important thing. If not for the

0:35:100:35:14

Soviet Union, we wouldn't be here.

Hetmyer might still, and most of the

0:35:140:35:21

world, with its allies -- Adolph

Hitler might have won and they make,

0:35:210:35:26

and most of the world...

The effect

of Bolshevism and coming is on

0:35:260:35:31

Europe was colossal.

Let's bring it

all a little bit more up-to-date.

0:35:310:35:34

You were saying earlier you have

never been a Leninist, although

0:35:340:35:40

Peter Hitchens confesses he was at

one time.

Absolutely was a

0:35:400:35:46

Trotskyist, and now nor the complete

folly of that particular political

0:35:460:35:53

disposition.

John McDonnell in the

Labour Party openly says he is a

0:35:530:35:57

Trotskyist, a Leninist, is that a

problem for the Labour Party?

I

0:35:570:36:02

would have thought, arts would be

more respected now than he has been

0:36:020:36:05

for quite some time as capitalism is

collapsing around our ears. From

0:36:050:36:11

2008 the Economist itself, the bible

of capitalism, began to resurrect

0:36:110:36:17

Marxist economics and analysis, so I

really don't think it is. Jeremy

0:36:170:36:22

Corbyn is not a Marxist. It only

took them four years, 54...

It is

0:36:220:36:32

not that.

I think we are moving into

an era where Governments like the

0:36:320:36:39

Chinese Government are making plans,

and are succeeding in implementing

0:36:390:36:43

them, and thus transforming their

position. China in 1949, and I don't

0:36:430:36:49

need to tell you, was just about the

most backward place you could

0:36:490:36:52

possibly imagine. And from 1949 to

now it has sold transforms that it

0:36:520:36:59

is the world's biggest economy...

We

are in danger of getting sidetracked

0:36:590:37:07

by China here.

I have to put this

point in. If China was backward in

0:37:070:37:12

1949 it was far more backward by the

time Mao Zedong finished his great

0:37:120:37:16

leap forward and starved millions of

people to death in the period of

0:37:160:37:19

economic lunacy. You just don't

notice...

What George was saying

0:37:190:37:25

they are, and a sense certainly

amongst younger voters in this

0:37:250:37:29

country and others, where they are

turning against capitalism, they

0:37:290:37:31

don't think it has worked or

delivered for them, that this kind

0:37:310:37:35

of Marxist Leninist philosophy is

becoming more popular?

Let's hope

0:37:350:37:39

not. The fact the current system is

failing does not seem to recommend

0:37:390:37:43

the Soviet system, which is

demonstrably a failure, and even its

0:37:430:37:49

own leaders admitted it failed and

that is why they tried to reform it

0:37:490:37:52

in the period I was there and why it

collapsed. Whatever you might want

0:37:520:37:55

to conclude from examining our

position, the Soviet alternative is

0:37:550:37:58

not the thing you want the dues.

This was a long period of disaster,

0:37:580:38:01

and I remember at the end of it

watching in Moscow said a film which

0:38:010:38:06

has never been shown here, and the

title means approximately we can't

0:38:060:38:12

go on living like this, and for the

first time, the politburo told the

0:38:120:38:18

truth about what life was like in

the dreadful place and everyone in

0:38:180:38:20

that cinema was weeping because

finally they saw the truth being

0:38:200:38:23

told about the dreadful

anti-civilisation in which they had

0:38:230:38:26

been taught to live for so long. The

idea we should celebrate it revive

0:38:260:38:30

it seems to me to be verging on the

obscene.

George, one interesting

0:38:300:38:34

question about this of course,

whilst there are events going on in

0:38:340:38:39

London and across the UK to mark

this centenary, it is not being

0:38:390:38:43

celebrated in Russia.

I was in

Russia a couple of weeks ago. There

0:38:430:38:46

is a big debate about whether it

ought to be, and many people are

0:38:460:38:51

celebrating it...

Vladimir Putin is

not. He would want to ignore it.

But

0:38:510:38:55

the Communist Party is the second

biggest party in Russia. And it is

0:38:550:39:00

the ruling party in China, which,

with respect, is not a separate

0:39:000:39:06

thing, because China is continuing

the Russian Revolution and doing

0:39:060:39:08

rather better at it than the

Russians did, but there are many

0:39:080:39:13

people, particularly older, that is

true, who think that the era of the

0:39:130:39:17

Soviet Union was better than the

very cold period of capitalism that

0:39:170:39:23

succeeded it. So half the world

followed for a time the red flag,

0:39:230:39:30

the red banner of Leninism. No one

will do so again. Leninism of the

0:39:300:39:38

kind that Peter used to proselytise

is certainly not coming back, but

0:39:380:39:41

Marxism is going to live on.

Let's

hope not.

Thank you both, gentlemen,

0:39:410:39:47

for coming on to speak about that.

0:39:470:39:49

It's coming up to 11.40am.

0:39:490:39:50

You're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:39:500:39:51

Coming up on the programme:

0:39:510:39:54

We've taken the moodbox to where

else but bonfire night celebrations.

0:39:540:39:57

We've taken the moodbox to where

else but bonfire night celebrations?

0:39:570:40:00

It wasn't just Westminster

that had the fireworks this week.

0:40:000:40:02

We're asking people in Guildford

in Surrey,

0:40:020:40:04

does Theresa May have control

of her Government and her party?

0:40:040:40:05

Hello, I'm Natalie Graham and this

is the Sunday Politics

0:40:120:40:14

in the South East.

0:40:140:40:15

Coming up later:

0:40:150:40:17

A longer journey to the Job Centre -

if you're on benefits

0:40:170:40:20

in parts of Kent.

0:40:200:40:21

We're going to be hearing

from campaigners concerned

0:40:210:40:23

about the decision to close several

centres in the county.

0:40:230:40:28

Joining me in the studio this

week are Henry Smith,

0:40:280:40:30

the Conservative MP for Crawley,

and Keith Taylor, who's the Green

0:40:300:40:33

MEP for the South East region.

0:40:330:40:35

Hi.

0:40:350:40:36

A warm welcome to you both.

0:40:360:40:37

There's a housing crisis

and it needs to be fixed.

0:40:370:40:40

That's the mantra

of many politicians.

0:40:400:40:41

But how?

0:40:410:40:44

The Government's come up

with a new way of working out

0:40:440:40:46

where houses should be

built, based on demand.

0:40:460:40:51

It would mean the south east

increasing the number

0:40:510:40:53

of new homes by up

to 40% in some areas.

0:40:530:40:55

But it's got Conservative MPs

and council leaders very cross.

0:40:550:40:58

Here's Sara Neville.

0:40:580:41:02

It seems we're all agreed

that the housing market is broken

0:41:020:41:05

and we need to build more homes.

0:41:050:41:07

But how many and where

is causing Conservative

0:41:070:41:08

dissent in the garden of England.

0:41:090:41:11

The Government reckons we need

266,000 more homes a year to meet

0:41:110:41:15

rising demand.

0:41:150:41:18

So, it is proposing a radical

new shake-up of the system

0:41:180:41:28

to accelerate development,

which would see most parts

0:41:280:41:31

of the south east building more

homes than is

0:41:310:41:33

currently planned.

0:41:330:41:34

While other areas have their

home-building targets cut.

0:41:340:41:36

Here, in the Medway

towns, it could mean

0:41:360:41:38

an extra 38,000 homes

in the

0:41:380:41:40

next 20 years - an impossible

target, according to the area's

0:41:400:41:44

three Conservative MPs.

0:41:440:41:48

Minister and Chatham MP

Tracey Crouch, Gillingham MP

0:41:480:41:53

Rehman Chishti and Rochester MP

Kelly Tolhurst have sent a warning

0:41:530:41:58

shot to the Government in the form

of a joint letter calling for an

0:41:580:42:01

urgent review of the new formula.

0:42:010:42:03

We need to build more

homes in Medway,

0:42:030:42:04

everybody recognises that.

0:42:040:42:07

But we need to do it

in a sustainable way

0:42:070:42:12

where we are able to provide the

infrastructure and the quality of

0:42:120:42:15

life for people that

are living in north Kent.

0:42:150:42:17

But I will keep making the case

as to why I think those

0:42:170:42:20

numbers are undeliverable

for Medway.

0:42:200:42:21

And it's not just MPs who are upset.

0:42:210:42:24

Projections for home-building are

currently set by the local authority

0:42:240:42:28

whose leaders are now speaking out.

0:42:280:42:34

One told us this week the plans

are nonsensical and take housing

0:42:340:42:37

numbers into the realms of fantasy.

0:42:370:42:38

Another with concerns

is the leader of Medway Council.

0:42:380:42:42

Well, I'm absolutely livid,

to be quite frank, because it is not

0:42:420:42:45

fair, it's not equitable.

0:42:450:42:55

It would inevitably mean a huge loss

of green spaces, open land.

0:42:560:42:59

What I am hearing is absolute

astonishment that some of

0:42:590:43:02

these numbers are

being consulted on.

0:43:020:43:03

I talk to leaders from all

across Kent, particularly

0:43:030:43:05

north and east Kent,

and not one of them are

0:43:050:43:08

happy with these numbers.

0:43:080:43:09

So, how would the new

targets be calculated?

0:43:090:43:14

Well, areas where house prices

are more than four times the average

0:43:140:43:17

income will have to build more

homes, which means Kent and Sussex

0:43:170:43:21

will have to develop more

than most other regions.

0:43:210:43:27

It would mean some 176,000

more houses in the

0:43:270:43:31

south east in the next ten years.

0:43:310:43:34

For Maidstone and Gravesham, it will

mean increasing their plan targets

0:43:340:43:37

by almost 40%.

0:43:370:43:39

Canterbury's house building

would increase by 37% and Swales

0:43:390:43:42

by 36%.

0:43:420:43:46

Meanwhile, in parts of East Sussex,

the figures would be

0:43:460:43:50

dramatically cut by 38% in Brighton,

30% in Hastings and just over 29% in

0:43:500:43:54

Crawley.

0:43:540:43:58

Some building is happening,

like here in Chatham where 77 new

0:43:580:44:02

homes are going up as part of a £12

million regeneration project.

0:44:020:44:07

Most of which are

affordable homes like these.

0:44:070:44:10

This social housing was built by one

of the biggest providers in

0:44:100:44:13

the south east, the chief executive

welcomes the Government's plans.

0:44:130:44:16

Everybody deserves a decent home and

we have to find a way of tackling

0:44:160:44:19

that.

0:44:190:44:22

There are so many people

across Kent who just can't get

0:44:220:44:25

access to the housing

they need and if this leads

0:44:250:44:27

to greater investment,

greater opportunity for housing

0:44:270:44:33

associations like MHS to meet local

need in that way, then that

0:44:330:44:36

has got to be an important

and worthwhile step to make.

0:44:360:44:39

Medway will grow,

like much of Kent and

0:44:390:44:41

Sussex, but on whose terms?

0:44:410:44:42

The Government

consultation closes this

0:44:420:44:43

week with the hope that the new

formula will be introduced

0:44:430:44:46

next year.

0:44:460:44:48

Henry Smith, as you've just heard,

this is causing extraordinary levels

0:44:480:44:50

of anger among people

in your own party.

0:44:500:44:52

Alan Jarrett, as we just

heard, is absolutely

0:44:520:45:03

livid,

0:45:030:45:12

but Andrew Bowles, who's the leader

of Swale Borough Council

0:45:120:45:14

says his reaction was horror,

0:45:140:45:16

disbelief and total

frustration at these plans.

0:45:160:45:17

Are they wrong to be angry?

0:45:170:45:19

Well, I don't think

I've ever known a time

0:45:190:45:21

when house-building hasn't been

controversial, both by those who say

0:45:210:45:23

we are not building enough houses

because we have got an increasing

0:45:230:45:26

population, people are living

longer, fewer people under the same

0:45:260:45:29

roof in many respects

and also then the pressure

0:45:290:45:31

on our environment,

the

0:45:310:45:32

green belt, in many parts

of the south-east and,

0:45:320:45:34

you know, not least

the pressure on infrastructure.

0:45:340:45:36

I think people have been very averse

to new developments because they

0:45:360:45:39

don't see the new road junction

or the railway station or the new

0:45:390:45:42

classrooms...

0:45:420:45:43

That is the complaint

of the three MPs in Medway.

0:45:430:45:45

And I think one of

the reasons why people

0:45:450:45:48

are so resistant historically

to planning is because the

0:45:480:45:50

infrastructure hasn't kept pace

with the new housing.

0:45:500:45:52

So, I welcome the Government

looking at this issue,

0:45:520:45:54

this consultation

that is about to close

0:45:540:45:55

and no doubt will go on,

but

0:45:550:45:57

we have to really reach that balance

of providing enough housing but at

0:45:570:46:00

the same time not ruining what makes

the south-east such a wonderful

0:46:000:46:03

place to live.

0:46:030:46:04

So, in response to my question,

are those council leaders

0:46:040:46:07

in Kent and those three MPs,

including a Government minister,

0:46:070:46:09

Tracey Crouch, are they wrong to be

angry and to make such a big fuss

0:46:090:46:12

about this?

0:46:130:46:14

No, not at all.

0:46:140:46:15

I think it is absolutely

right that our

0:46:150:46:17

elected representatives are

reflecting the voices of the people

0:46:170:46:19

who they are representing

in their local communities.

0:46:190:46:21

And so if there is

concern about policy,

0:46:210:46:23

it is absolutely right

that

0:46:230:46:24

that should be aired and discussed.

0:46:240:46:27

Now, your constituency,

ironically a new town itself

0:46:270:46:34

itself actually would,

under this formula,

0:46:340:46:36

see a reduction in the

housing targets.

0:46:360:46:38

But for others, this

is a very simplistic formula,

0:46:380:46:40

this is the argument,

being imposed across

0:46:400:46:41

the board from top down

to

0:46:410:46:43

local councils who are telling us

that they will not be able to

0:46:430:46:46

deliver them.

0:46:460:46:47

It doesn't sound like good

Government policy, does it?

0:46:470:46:49

Well, I think, you know, I can't

speak for the Government but what I

0:46:490:46:53

think they are trying to do is open

up the debate about the future of

0:46:530:46:57

house-building and I think

that is an important

0:46:570:46:59

and necessary debate to have.

0:46:590:47:02

But, at the same time, people

are expressing their views very

0:47:020:47:06

vigorously and I think, you know,

in a democracy, it's a good thing.

0:47:060:47:09

But this very principle,

before I move

0:47:090:47:14

on to Keith Taylor,

this very principle of a

0:47:140:47:16

simplistic formula, yes,

it might have simplify things,

0:47:160:47:18

but it is being imposed

on councils against their will.

0:47:180:47:20

Do you think, as an MP,

that is good planning policy?

0:47:200:47:23

I am not a central planner.

0:47:230:47:24

One of my political instincts

isn't for the state to be

0:47:240:47:30

telling people what to do if at all

possible, so it is against my

0:47:300:47:33

instincts to have

some central diktat.

0:47:330:47:35

But I think it is important

that the issue of house-building is

0:47:350:47:38

being discussed and I have no doubt

there will be a vigorous debate

0:47:380:47:41

going forward.

0:47:410:47:42

Keith Taylor, you represent

the whole region in the

0:47:420:47:44

European Parliament.

0:47:450:47:46

I do.

0:47:460:47:47

When you look at the area

as a whole and see

0:47:470:47:49

that some towns, as we have

just heard, will see

0:47:490:47:52

up to a 40% increase

in

0:47:520:47:57

housing targets, but others,

like Brighton and Hove

0:47:570:47:59

will see, I think,

0:47:590:48:00

nearly a 40% decrease

in the housing targets.

0:48:000:48:02

What do you make of that?

0:48:020:48:05

I think actually we need to start

looking at the housing stock that we

0:48:050:48:08

have got and the Tories,

if you don't mind me

0:48:080:48:11

saying, are just

as

0:48:110:48:12

confused now as they were years ago

when Maggie Thatcher introduced the

0:48:120:48:15

right to buy council houses.

0:48:150:48:16

And that is without an obligation to

replace that social housing stock.

0:48:160:48:19

What do you mean confused?

0:48:190:48:20

Well, I mean, what's

actually happened is

0:48:200:48:28

that we have seen a massive transfer

of property ownership from local

0:48:280:48:32

authorities to landlords.

0:48:320:48:38

But the numbers needed,

Keith, and this was a

0:48:380:48:40

huge issue in the recent election.

0:48:400:48:42

Yeah, OK, if you...

0:48:420:48:44

The numbers needed, we aren't

building enough and we're not

0:48:440:48:46

building them quickly enough.

0:48:460:48:47

No, and we're not

building the right sort.

0:48:470:48:49

And leasing land can

be tricky and it is

0:48:490:48:51

not going to release enough,

is it, enough derelict,

0:48:510:48:53

empty homes to fulfill the needs

of ourhousing population?

0:48:530:48:56

What we need is more social

housing and we need to stop

0:48:560:48:58

the sell-off of housing association

into the private market and that

0:48:580:49:02

both were Tory measures.

0:49:020:49:06

What we need to see

now is, as you say,

0:49:060:49:10

brownfield land being brought back

in, we need to see an end to this

0:49:100:49:15

ridiculous Tory national policy

planning framework which actually

0:49:150:49:21

says to councils, if this isn't

sustainable to have a social housing

0:49:210:49:23

quota in there, you don't

have to push it through.

0:49:230:49:29

I'd like to challenge

that very briefly on two

0:49:290:49:31

points.

0:49:310:49:37

First of all, once somebody

exercises the right to buy, that

0:49:370:49:40

house still exists,

it is still a dwelling,

0:49:400:49:42

it doesn't disappear

but also...

0:49:420:49:45

But it is not owned by the council.

0:49:450:49:52

But, but, but the Government

commitment is to at least

0:49:520:49:54

replace every household with a new

social housing stock in that same

0:49:540:49:57

area.

0:49:570:49:58

Now, just getting back to this issue

of the top down formula, not

0:49:580:50:01

that long ago I was sitting in

the studio with Government ministers

0:50:010:50:04

telling us about the marvels of

localism and how they were devolving

0:50:040:50:07

power to local government.

0:50:070:50:08

This seems to be,

as one council leader

0:50:080:50:10

put it, the final nail

in the coffin of localism.

0:50:100:50:12

It's very contradictory, isn't it?

0:50:120:50:14

Well, my background

in public life is as

0:50:140:50:16

council leader.

0:50:160:50:17

I was the leader of West Sussex

for many years and I

0:50:170:50:19

think, you know, devolution of power

is a very important thing.

0:50:190:50:24

I still believe in

devolution of power

0:50:240:50:26

and I would certainly resist any

central government diktat that took

0:50:260:50:29

that away.

0:50:290:50:31

OK, we move on.

0:50:310:50:32

Sorry, Keith, you will

have your chance in

0:50:320:50:34

a moment.

0:50:340:50:35

I could mention a total

contradiction again but I won't.

0:50:350:50:38

OK, I just did, we

are going to move on.

0:50:380:50:40

Now, if you're claiming benefits

and you live in Herne Bay,

0:50:400:50:43

Whitstable or Tunbridge Wells,

you may soon have to travel much

0:50:430:50:45

further to go to the Job Centre.

0:50:460:50:47

The Government has been looking

again at where they're located.

0:50:470:50:50

It says because more people

are claiming their benefits online,

0:50:500:50:52

some centres are under-used

and will close next March.

0:50:520:50:55

Rosie Duffield is the Labour MP

for Canterbury and says the plans

0:50:550:50:58

are already upsetting

many of her constituents.

0:50:580:51:01

It is a £7 return bus fare

from Whitstable to Canterbury

0:51:010:51:11

and lots of those people are kind

of elderly

0:51:110:51:13

or in a position where they can't

necessarily afford that fare.

0:51:130:51:15

Obviously they wouldn't be

going to the Job Centre

0:51:150:51:17

if they were comfortably off.

0:51:180:51:19

I think it is all of

those things, if you

0:51:190:51:21

an appointment or you

miss an interview,

0:51:210:51:23

you are stuck on a bus

or

0:51:230:51:25

the bus is late, then you are

terrified about getting sanctions

0:51:250:51:27

imposed.

0:51:270:51:30

Also the Universal Credit roll out,

people are really, really

0:51:300:51:32

worried about missing that bit

of advice, not knowing where to go.

0:51:320:51:35

It is all a horrible,

confusing time at

0:51:350:51:37

the moment, that added

stress and pressure

0:51:370:51:40

on someone already

0:51:400:51:41

receiving benefits is a bit cruel,

I think.

0:51:410:51:43

Well, joining us now

from Whitstable double

0:51:430:51:45

is Sue Bott, who is the deputy

0:51:450:51:47

of chief executive of

Disability Rights UK.

0:51:470:51:48

Thank you very much for joining us.

0:51:480:51:52

Maybe you could explain what these

closures may mean for people who

0:51:520:51:55

claim benefits in Whitstable.

0:51:550:51:56

Well, I think it

will mean that people

0:51:560:51:58

have to travel a lot further.

0:51:580:51:59

But let's remember that

that is not always easy

0:51:590:52:05

for people, there's

the

0:52:050:52:06

affordability problem,

but also for the disabled people,

0:52:060:52:08

there is the access problem.

0:52:080:52:09

I have to say that the buses

to and from Canterbury are

0:52:090:52:16

not the most accessible going

and could cause a lot of disabled

0:52:160:52:19

people especially, I think,

great difficulties.

0:52:190:52:21

But the Government is saying,

isn't it, that it will offer

0:52:210:52:28

tailored support for the most

vulnerable affected by these

0:52:280:52:30

closures?

0:52:300:52:32

It says group sessions,

work coaches and increased

0:52:320:52:34

flexibility, it does seem to be

responding to those concerns.

0:52:340:52:37

Yeah, but the trouble

is that to be able

0:52:370:52:39

to access those concerns, you have

got to go to your Job Centre,

0:52:390:52:42

haven't you?

0:52:420:52:43

So, I am not reassured by that

statement in any way

0:52:430:52:48

whatsoever and I think what we have

heard from our members at Disability

0:52:480:52:53

Rights UK time and time again

is that there are all these

0:52:530:52:58

pronouncements but actually when it

comes to it, there isn't the

0:52:580:53:00

protection there

for disabled people.

0:53:000:53:01

In fact, quite the reverse.

0:53:020:53:03

The Government seems to have it

in for disabled people.

0:53:030:53:11

So, what exactly do you think

the consequences will be for those

0:53:110:53:14

people who find it difficult

to travel that bit further to the

0:53:140:53:17

nearest Job Centre?

0:53:170:53:18

Well, I think the consequences

will be that people

0:53:180:53:20

will find it very difficult to claim

the benefits that they are entitled

0:53:200:53:23

to.

0:53:230:53:27

We have got the roll out of

Universal Credit in this area from

0:53:270:53:30

April next year.

0:53:300:53:31

You have to apply online.

0:53:310:53:33

Not everyone has access

to a computer or can

0:53:330:53:38

even use a computer,

that is particularly prevalent among

0:53:380:53:40

disabled people.

0:53:400:53:41

So how are they going to claim?

0:53:410:53:45

They need to go to their Job

Centre for support but

0:53:450:53:48

they are going to have to go

further for support.

0:53:480:53:51

I just fear that many people

are going to be left

0:53:510:53:55

absolutely stranded

and with nothing to support them.

0:53:550:53:56

Sue Bott, thank you very

much for joining us.

0:53:560:53:59

Henry Smith, do you

support these closures?

0:53:590:54:04

Well, I think it is actually

a reflection of the fact

0:54:040:54:07

that we have got record high

employment in this country now.

0:54:070:54:09

In my Crawley

constituency, where the

0:54:090:54:12

Job Centre happens to be

remaining open, it's 1.5%.

0:54:120:54:17

So I think this is a consequence

of both a growing

0:54:170:54:20

economy and more things being able

to be done remotely on the web.

0:54:200:54:23

And, of course, it's

important that we

0:54:230:54:25

are delivering employment

support and Job Centre

0:54:250:54:28

support to people

in

0:54:280:54:30

the most cost-effective way,

which is up-to-date with the way we

0:54:300:54:33

transact.

0:54:330:54:35

Yeah, and that is the

Government's argument for

0:54:350:54:36

justification for the closures.

0:54:370:54:38

But as you have just

heard, I mean, Sue Bott

0:54:380:54:41

thinks the Government has got it

in for disabled people.

0:54:410:54:43

Rosie Duffield described it as

a very cruel move because of those

0:54:430:54:47

small number of very vulnerable

people who will be adversely

0:54:470:54:49

affected, they say.

0:54:490:54:50

Well, one of the features

of the support for

0:54:500:54:53

unemployed people,

those sort of typically

0:54:530:54:56

hard to reach people

who

0:54:560:54:59

are maybe long-term unemployed

for all sorts of reasons, disability

0:54:590:55:03

being one of them, is targeted

support and support groups to make

0:55:030:55:07

sure that they are receiving

the kind of help that they need.

0:55:070:55:11

So I think the answer

is to really use

0:55:110:55:16

resource more efficiency to target

those most in need, whereas I think

0:55:160:55:24

for the vast majority of people,

give the example of Monarch Airlines

0:55:240:55:27

going out of business

recently, the Job Centre

0:55:270:55:29

remotely contacted all

of

0:55:290:55:31

those employees who were losing

their jobs with information on how

0:55:310:55:34

easyJet and Virgin Atlantic and

other airline employers wanted to

0:55:340:55:39

employ them without ever having

to visit the Job Centre

0:55:390:55:42

in the first place.

0:55:420:55:43

I think Job Centres are changing

as the economy grows.

0:55:430:55:45

And you are confident

they can target

0:55:450:55:47

those people who might be worst hit?

0:55:470:55:49

I don't think we should ever be

complacent and we need to ensure

0:55:490:55:52

that resources are focused on those

most vulnerable and most in need.

0:55:520:55:55

OK, Keith Taylor, if the Government

is right and 99% of people claiming

0:55:550:55:58

Universal Credit are doing it

online, it does make sense, doesn't

0:55:580:56:02

it, to reduce your use

of expensive buildings?

0:56:020:56:03

Well, in one way, yes.

0:56:030:56:07

But if that expensive building

is there for the elderly person or

0:56:070:56:11

the disabled person who is not

near a working Job Centre,

0:56:110:56:16

then it is absolutely...

0:56:160:56:22

I think you are saying

you were going to help them but are

0:56:220:56:25

you going to play the bus fare?

0:56:260:56:27

Well, the Government is offering

to help with travel costs.

0:56:270:56:30

That's good.

0:56:300:56:31

But...

0:56:310:56:32

There has also been

a lot of concern,

0:56:320:56:34

as Henry pointed out,

about

0:56:340:56:35

the unemployment rate.

0:56:350:56:36

If the rate is relatively

low at the moment,

0:56:360:56:38

then again, it's maybe

a good time to save money,

0:56:380:56:40

much-needed money by doing this.

0:56:400:56:42

It's always a good time

to save money, Natalie.

0:56:420:56:44

But actually what you need

to do is make sure

0:56:440:56:46

that you are spending

the money wisely

0:56:460:56:48

enough, reaching out

to the

0:56:480:56:49

most vulnerable and most

disadvantaged members of society.

0:56:490:56:52

Ever since we've had

the austerity programme,

0:56:520:57:00

we have seen employment shrink more

and more in terms of

0:57:000:57:03

good jobs that are long-term jobs.

0:57:030:57:06

Where actually now we have got

2 million UK jobs on zero hour

0:57:060:57:09

contracts.

0:57:100:57:14

These people are up against,

you know, they're up

0:57:140:57:17

against the sharp end.

0:57:170:57:18

It's come back to

the people who are on

0:57:180:57:20

benefits.

0:57:200:57:21

I mean, Universal Credit

is being rolled out over the next

0:57:210:57:24

few months, Henry, as you know, this

is hugely controversial, even within

0:57:240:57:27

your own party.

0:57:270:57:28

Is this the right time

to close Job Centres when

0:57:280:57:30

people are so much in the dark

about what it means for them?

0:57:300:57:33

Well, Universal Credit

is about rolling

0:57:330:57:36

into one benefit many different

benefits so that it is much more

0:57:360:57:39

understandable.

0:57:390:57:45

Also it means that it tapers,

so as people get back into

0:57:450:57:51

work, they don't have this cliff

edge of suddenly benefits ending.

0:57:510:57:54

But it is the Job Centres

where people have to go to have that

0:57:540:57:57

explain to them face-to-face and if

those Job Centres are closing at

0:57:570:58:00

this critical time in

the benefits system,

0:58:000:58:02

surely a delay would be

a

0:58:020:58:03

good idea, wouldn't it?

0:58:030:58:04

Well, as we were discussing

earlier on, around

0:58:040:58:06

about 99% of people do deal online

with Job Centres and for those who

0:58:060:58:10

are most vulnerable,

there is support, again, as we were

0:58:100:58:12

discussing in terms of support

for their transport

0:58:120:58:14

to get to the Job Centre, if they

need to go

0:58:140:58:17

to a physical location.

0:58:170:58:18

What about the wider narrative?

0:58:180:58:21

I mean, this feeds into

an increasing feeling among

0:58:210:58:25

many people that all the things

Theresa May said when she took

0:58:250:58:28

office a year ago about helping

the most vulnerable in society,

0:58:280:58:31

it just isn't materialising

and as we have

0:58:310:58:32

just said, having it

in for disabled people.

0:58:320:58:34

Rosie...

0:58:340:58:35

Louise Casey, who has been

a Government adviser for 20

0:58:350:58:38

years under Labour and

the Conservatives, said the current

0:58:380:58:40

benefits system is punitive.

0:58:400:58:41

This is feeding into

a sense that you don't

0:58:410:58:43

care, your government doesn't care.

0:58:430:58:44

Well, I think the best way to care

about people is to ensure that there

0:58:440:58:48

is employment for the largest number

of people and we have the highest

0:58:480:58:51

employment level since recorded

history in this country now.

0:58:510:58:55

The way to get people

out of poverty, the

0:58:550:58:59

way to get people out of dependency

is to grow the economy and create

0:58:590:59:02

jobs and that way...

0:59:020:59:03

We are talking about

the people that have the

0:59:030:59:12

-- are the hardest to find work for,

for obvious reasons,

0:59:120:59:16

the most vulnerable.

0:59:160:59:17

And now way you can then focus more

resource on precisely

0:59:170:59:20

those people who are most honourable

and need that extra help.

0:59:200:59:22

So, is that why the

government doesn't fund

0:59:220:59:24

any food banks?

0:59:240:59:25

I don't see the consistency

in your argument.

0:59:250:59:27

The conclusion that I and many other

have reached is that the

0:59:270:59:30

Conservatives don't really care very

much about the poor and vulnerable.

0:59:300:59:33

OK, we are going to move on.

0:59:330:59:35

Because it's time for some

of the other news you may have

0:59:350:59:38

missed this week in 60 Seconds

with Laurence Sleator.

0:59:380:59:45

Families of the 11 men killed

in the Shoreham Air disaster have

0:59:450:59:49

been refused legal aid ahead

of an inquest into the crash.

0:59:490:59:53

Theresa May pledged

to investigate after local MP Tim

0:59:530:59:56

Lawton raised the issue

at Prime Minister's Questions.

0:59:560:59:58

Two years after the accident,

he says families

0:59:581:00:00

are no closer to justice.

1:00:001:00:06

It just seems extraordinary

to me that it is

1:00:061:00:08

taking so long and yet full justice

may be denied to those families

1:00:081:00:11

simply because the funding is not

available for legal representation,

1:00:111:00:15

so I think the Prime Minister needs

to look at this a bit

1:00:151:00:23

more closely and treat it

as the

1:00:231:00:25

exceptionally tragic case it was.

1:00:251:00:26

Hastings Pier has won a prestigious

architecture award seven years after

1:00:261:00:29

it was devastated by fire.

1:00:291:00:30

Part crowd funded by

locals, the people's

1:00:301:00:32

pier beat five other buildings

to win the Riba Stirling Prize and

1:00:321:00:35

be crowned the UK's

best new building.

1:00:351:00:36

And Brighton schoolchildren

descended on Parliament this week

1:00:361:00:38

with their local MPs as part

of Save Our Schools campaign.

1:00:381:00:42

They are calling for

more investment in

1:00:421:00:44

education in next month's budget.

1:00:441:00:51

Keith Taylor, the Government has

announced more funding for schools

1:00:511:00:54

in the last couple of months and yet

the schools don't seem to be happy

1:00:541:00:57

with that.

1:00:571:00:58

The sums don't add up.

1:00:581:01:01

There's already a £1.7 billion

shortage in their school funding and

1:01:011:01:11

as it goes on, we are actually

going to see a real time

1:01:131:01:16

reduction in school funding,

I think it's about

1:01:161:01:18

4.5% by 2019 or 2018.

1:01:181:01:21

So, do you think the Chancellor

should be listening,

1:01:211:01:25

should be increasing the budget

again because some schools say they

1:01:251:01:28

need an extra 2 billion

from the Government just

1:01:281:01:30

just to stand still?

1:01:301:01:32

Henry, as you know from schools

in your constituency.

1:01:321:01:40

Well, the budget is

going up for schools.

1:01:401:01:42

In West Sussex, the figure

is 10.7% increase

1:01:421:01:44

in school funding, which is

a significant number and there a

1:01:441:01:47

guarantee of a minimum

per pupil spent £4800 each.

1:01:471:01:49

As you know, Brighton

and Hove, it amounts to 3%.

1:01:491:01:54

They say that will actually be

outweighed by inflation, it amounts

1:01:541:01:57

to a 0% increase.

1:01:571:01:58

You can understand why people

in Brighton and Hove

1:01:581:02:00

aren't happy even if your

constituents are happy with the

1:02:001:02:02

new...

1:02:021:02:03

Well, I think what this new formula

does is it writes a wrong

1:02:031:02:07

that is over a decade,

the block grant system

1:02:071:02:09

which massively funded urban schools

over many years to the

1:02:091:02:11

detriment of schools

in places like West

1:02:111:02:13

Sussex, which is one

of the

1:02:131:02:14

lowest funded counties

in the country and it is important.

1:02:141:02:17

All schools are seeing

an increase across the country.

1:02:171:02:20

Not every MP is as happy

with this situation as you.

1:02:201:02:23

I mean, other MPs in East Sussex,

Maria Caulfield for example, she is

1:02:231:02:26

not happy so it sounds

like you are saying,

1:02:261:02:28

we are all right in West Sussex,

but others aren't.

1:02:281:02:30

No, I would like to

see more funding for

1:02:301:02:33

schools, don't get me wrong.

1:02:331:02:34

But I think the Government

does deserve

1:02:341:02:35

some credit for increasing funding,

as I say, in West Sussex where my

1:02:351:02:39

constituency is, where I know this

situation best by 10.7% which

1:02:391:02:46

is pretty good, given

the financial environment.

1:02:461:02:47

OK, I'm afraid that is all we have

got time for this week.

1:02:471:02:50

Sorry, Keith.

1:02:501:02:51

My thanks to our guests for today,

Keith Taylor, the Green MEP,

1:02:511:02:54

and Henry Smith, the Conservative

MP for Crawley.

1:02:541:02:56

We're off air next week

because the MPs have got a week

1:02:561:02:59

away from Westminster,

1:02:591:03:00

but Julia will be

here the week after,

1:03:001:03:02

I hope you can join her then.

1:03:021:03:04

Bye-bye.

1:03:041:03:05

to support.

1:03:061:03:07

All right, and at that point

we have to end it there.

1:03:071:03:10

My thanks to Rosena and Andrew,

and with that it's back to Sarah.

1:03:101:03:12

It's been a tricky

week for Theresa May -

1:03:121:03:15

again, you might think.

1:03:151:03:16

She's lost a Cabinet minister

and been forced into a reshuffle

1:03:161:03:18

which did little for party unity,

to say nothing of losing a Commons

1:03:181:03:21

vote on Brexit and yet more reports

of fireworks in Cabinet meetings -

1:03:211:03:25

this time apparently over housing.

1:03:251:03:26

So, is the Prime Minister's time

in office going with a bang

1:03:261:03:29

or more of a whimper?

1:03:291:03:30

Well, we sent Ellie Price

1:03:301:03:31

and the entirely unscientific

Sunday Politics moodbox

1:03:311:03:33

to Conservative-held Surrey,

to find out.

1:03:331:03:35

ALL:

Three, two, one.

1:03:351:03:38

# Ignite the light

and let it shine...#

1:03:381:03:44

It's a tale of lit fuses, plots,

conspiracy, treachery,

1:03:451:03:48

but enough of the recent goings

on in the Conservative Party,

1:03:481:03:52

it's firework night here

in Guildford and we're asking,

1:03:521:03:56

does Theresa May have control

of her Government and her party?

1:03:561:03:58

Yes or no?

1:03:581:03:59

# Baby you're a firework...#

1:03:591:04:05

With all the scandals in Government

at the moment

1:04:051:04:07

and Brexit seems to be dragging on

a little bit longer than we thought.

1:04:071:04:11

So, at the moment, I don't think

she is in control.

1:04:111:04:14

She's too many people sniping

at her back, really.

1:04:171:04:20

Do you think Theresa

May's in control?

1:04:201:04:21

I think she's in control.

1:04:211:04:23

She's in a good job

having a tough time.

1:04:231:04:25

No, I don't.

1:04:251:04:26

I think she's a mess.

1:04:261:04:28

Even when you read her body language

when she's being interviewed

1:04:281:04:30

by people, she doesn't

seem like she's in control.

1:04:301:04:33

I think she has poor advisers.

1:04:331:04:37

I'm going to put it in the "yes".

1:04:391:04:43

I do think she's struggling but,

I still hope, still think she has

1:04:431:04:46

a bit of a grip on them.

1:04:461:04:49

The Queen is England's role.

1:04:491:04:52

It's her birth right.

1:04:521:04:54

She is England's role

of this country.

1:04:541:04:57

I'm going to vote for Theresa May.

1:04:571:05:00

I don't think there's anyone

who could do a better job.

1:05:001:05:03

I think she's had a bit of

a poisoned chalice with Brexit but

1:05:031:05:06

I think she could have done better.

1:05:061:05:08

The money's not going

to where it needs to go.

1:05:081:05:11

I think she should resign, really.

1:05:111:05:12

I feel a bit sorry

for her, actually.

1:05:121:05:15

I think she's been witch-hunted

a little bit.

1:05:151:05:17

She's doing her best.

1:05:171:05:20

With everything that's

going on with the Cabinet at the

1:05:201:05:22

moment, I think the Conservative

Party is in a real mess, actually.

1:05:221:05:26

Very disappointed.

1:05:261:05:28

Well, you get bickering in all parts

not just the Conservative Party.

1:05:281:05:34

And that's just sort

of par for the course.

1:05:341:05:36

But I'm sure she'll

hold everybody together

1:05:361:05:39

despite the current difficulties.

1:05:391:05:41

The Tories weren't in control

when they had the referendum

1:05:411:05:43

in the first place for the euro.

1:05:431:05:46

We've had two years

of complete chaos.

1:05:461:05:48

I don't see an end to it.

1:05:481:05:52

Well, I seem to have

acquired a few new friends.

1:05:521:05:54

The oohs and ahs are

over and so the moodbox

1:05:541:05:57

and the result is...

1:05:571:06:01

No.

1:06:011:06:02

The majority of people

here in Guildford

1:06:021:06:04

don't think Theresa May

is in control.

1:06:041:06:06

CHEERING

1:06:071:06:11

That was Ellie with the entirely

unscientific moodbox, and thanks

1:06:111:06:13

to Bushy Hill Junior School

in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:131:06:20

Let's put the Sorbol question to our

panel. Equally unscientific but all

1:06:201:06:25

seasoned Westminster watchers. Is

Theresa May in control of her

1:06:251:06:27

Government at the moment or is all

of this sex harassment allegations

1:06:271:06:33

swimming around loosening her grip?

Depends what you mean by in control.

1:06:331:06:37

All Prime Ministers have a degree of

control. They retain the power much

1:06:371:06:44

tat wrongage as we saw with her

reshuffle. Didn't go down well with

1:06:441:06:48

her MPs but she did it. You can't be

fully in control of these situations

1:06:481:06:54

in effectively what is a hung

Parliament. If she won a land sheep

1:06:541:06:56

in the election she would have the

authority to do what she wanted. She

1:06:561:07:00

could float over something like

this. Stories like this, you could

1:07:001:07:04

say she's perfectly suited for it,

the vicar's daughter, the church

1:07:041:07:08

goer, to sort it out. It is much

more complicated than that. I don't

1:07:081:07:12

think she will be able to get a full

grip of it. There are some practical

1:07:121:07:16

things that need to happen that will

happen. I remember with back to

1:07:161:07:20

basics and John Major, that equally

vague scandal, what was back to

1:07:201:07:25

basics about? It was still running

months afterwards, stories about a

1:07:251:07:30

minister having an affair. This is

different. I can see it will be

1:07:301:07:34

impossible for her to fully get to

grips with it.

Does it provide an

1:07:341:07:38

opportunity for Theresa May to be

seen to be taking really serious

1:07:381:07:41

action, trying to root out a bad

culture in Westminster and therefore

1:07:411:07:45

get some political credit for it?

That opportunity was available to

1:07:451:07:49

her all of last week and she hasn't

taken it. What's remarkable for me

1:07:491:07:55

is the near complete breakdown in

discipline in the higher ranks the

1:07:551:07:58

Tory Party. It is extraordinary you

have Cabinet level ministers who are

1:07:581:08:03

not supporting their colleagues.

Ministers and former ministers

1:08:031:08:07

giving interviews in which they slag

off their former colleagues. It is

1:08:071:08:10

an absolute unholy mess. There is no

sense that she is gripping this. Or

1:08:101:08:15

has any particular solution. I think

we can have a lot of sympathy for

1:08:151:08:19

her in terms of finding a solution.

How on earth do you grip a problem

1:08:191:08:23

like this where you're talking about

apparently an indefinite period of

1:08:231:08:31

retrospective examination of

potential faults. 15 years is no

1:08:311:08:34

longer too historic for somebody to

dredge up some small thing that may

1:08:341:08:38

or may not have happened to them. It

is very difficult for her. But she's

1:08:381:08:42

being battered around by events.

Where does this story go next?

I

1:08:421:08:49

think the whip's office on every

party, Tories, Labour, Liberal

1:08:491:08:53

Democrats, SNP all have their own

whipping operations. That seems to

1:08:531:08:56

be the place of it really. This is

because, where do we draw the line?

1:08:561:09:01

Going forward what mechanisms are

put in place to top this helping

1:09:011:09:05

again. To take allegations

seriously, report them and

1:09:051:09:09

investigate them independently. Or

is there a bigger job to go back

1:09:091:09:14

into the past retrospective, who

knew what when as Nia said about

1:09:141:09:19

Kelvin Hopkins. This is a Shadow

Defence Secretary saying what did

1:09:191:09:23

the Labour Party leader know about

Kelvin Hopkins' allegations when he

1:09:231:09:28

promoted him? Theresa May is unable

to do the retrospective bit. She's

1:09:281:09:33

simply too weak. I asked this of

Number Ten last week. Why are you

1:09:331:09:38

not more front-foot the on this.

They said they would be if they

1:09:381:09:41

possibly could be. She's running a

minority Government. She cannot be

1:09:411:09:45

seen to be going after a witch-hunt

on her own people. So, I think this

1:09:451:09:50

goes on. Enof thebly what the whips

new -- inevitably what the whips

1:09:501:09:59

knew will be parment. Amber Rudd did

the same thing on Andrew Marr.

They

1:09:591:10:07

are being precise about the fact

they didn't know anything. Sarah

1:10:071:10:13

Newton said she heard no allegations

about her flock, the the MPs she was

1:10:131:10:17

in charge of rather than rumours

about any other Tories.

Amber Rudd

1:10:171:10:24

say, I do not recognise the more

lurid allegations. What about the

1:10:241:10:29

less lurid once? So, this smells

very, very bad indeed.

Jeremy

1:10:291:10:33

Corbyn's going to have to answer

some of these questions as well?

1:10:331:10:39

Yeah, but the whip's thing is a red

herring. Their remit is to get the

1:10:391:10:44

vote out for the Government

fundamentally. Everybody knows that.

1:10:441:10:46

They are not there, it is one of the

problems. They are not there to be

1:10:461:10:50

moral guides to these MPs. They are

there to win votes for the

1:10:501:10:54

Government or the opposition if that

becomes possible. And deal brutally

1:10:541:10:59

with MPs to make sure they get out

and vote. Of course they knew

1:10:591:11:02

virtually everything. But whether

they were obliged to act as moral

1:11:021:11:07

guard yawns in these situations, I

don't think they were. It was not

1:11:071:11:11

part of their job. Maybe you need

moral guardians in there but not the

1:11:111:11:15

whips.

Normally, less than

three-weeks out from a budget that's

1:11:151:11:20

what we'd been talking about.

Dominating our conversation. Given

1:11:201:11:23

that's set for November 22nd, is

that an opportunity for the

1:11:231:11:26

Government to seize back control of

the story?

Philip Hammond may be

1:11:261:11:31

glad we're not spending too much

time talking about the budget. It

1:11:311:11:35

should be an opportunity for the

Government to seize the agenda, draw

1:11:351:11:39

a line under all of this. I think

one of the very difficult as pects

1:11:391:11:43

of this so-called scandal for the

Government to manage is knowing

1:11:431:11:47

quite how long it will run. In the

normal scheme of things they lose

1:11:471:11:51

steam after a couple of weeks. But

there are so many potential gayses

1:11:511:11:55

that could come out, it might run

longer than that. Rather like the

1:11:551:12:00

expenses scandal. But there is an

opportunity at the budget to reset

1:12:001:12:03

the' again da. I just don't think

Philip Hammond will take it. I think

1:12:031:12:08

he's a very caution Chancellor. At

the moment, there is a feeling

1:12:081:12:11

Theresa May's leadership is so weak

it will be too dangerous for them to

1:12:111:12:17

do anything particularly dram attic

why. I expect a steady as you go

1:12:171:12:22

budget where they will be hoping not

to make any mistakes.

You say there

1:12:221:12:26

is disagreement in the Cabinet about

what should be in the budget?

1:12:261:12:32

Disagreement between the Chancellor

and the Prime Minister. The

1:12:321:12:38

witch-hunt is hiding a huge story

which is the incredible dysfunction

1:12:381:12:42

between Number Ten and number 11.

Philip Hammond and Theresa May can't

1:12:421:12:45

bear to be in the same room with

each other let alone agreeing what's

1:12:451:12:50

in the budget. It is coming down to

housing. Everybody agrees it has to

1:12:501:12:54

be the centrepiece of the budget.

They have to get more houses built.

1:12:541:13:00

Philip Hammond wands that bee

deregulation. Theresa May wants to

1:13:001:13:05

are borrow up to 50 billion

merchandise more for the Government

1:13:051:13:08

to build for themselves.

1:13:081:13:09

That's all for today.

1:13:091:13:11

There's no Sunday Politics

next weekend

1:13:111:13:13

while Parliament is in recess,

1:13:131:13:14

but I'll be back here at 11am

on BBC One in two weeks' time.

1:13:141:13:18

Until then, bye bye.

1:13:181:13:22

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