Browse content similar to 05/11/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning, everyone,
and welcome to the Sunday Politics. | 0:00:37 | 0:00:39 | |
I'm Sarah Smith. | 0:00:39 | 0:00:41 | |
And this is your guide to everything
that's happening in the world | 0:00:41 | 0:00:44 | |
of politics this Sunday morning. | 0:00:44 | 0:00:45 | |
On today's show: | 0:00:45 | 0:00:48 | |
Theresa May's right-hand man
Damian Green has denied claims that | 0:00:48 | 0:00:51 | |
police found pornography
on a computer in his office in 2008. | 0:00:51 | 0:00:57 | |
He says the allegations by a former
police chief are "political smears." | 0:00:57 | 0:01:00 | |
With claims of sexual harassment
at Westminster growing by the day, | 0:01:00 | 0:01:03 | |
can either Theresa May
or Jeremy Corbyn do anything to get | 0:01:03 | 0:01:06 | |
to grips with a scandal
threatening to engulf | 0:01:06 | 0:01:07 | |
the entire political class? | 0:01:07 | 0:01:12 | |
We'll ask a minister and senior
member of the Shadow Cabinet. | 0:01:12 | 0:01:18 | |
And some on the left of politics
have been gathering to mark 100 | 0:01:18 | 0:01:25 | |
And in the South East:
have been gathering to mark 100 | 0:01:25 | 0:01:26 | |
Impossible and nonsensical -
that's the reaction | 0:01:26 | 0:01:28 | |
from Conservative MPs and council
leaders to their own government's | 0:01:28 | 0:01:30 | |
new housing targets. | 0:01:30 | 0:01:31 | |
So how do we solve the crisis? | 0:01:31 | 0:01:32 | |
So there's plenty of
explosive political news | 0:01:45 | 0:01:46 | |
to get you in the mood
for bonfire night - | 0:01:46 | 0:01:49 | |
and with me as usual,
three journalists who know quite | 0:01:49 | 0:01:51 | |
a bit about parliamentary plots -
if rather less about | 0:01:51 | 0:01:54 | |
gunpowder and treason. | 0:01:54 | 0:01:55 | |
It's Tom Newton Dunn,
Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards. | 0:01:55 | 0:01:57 | |
So what are the big political
stories making the news this Sunday? | 0:01:57 | 0:02:00 | |
Well, the papers are brimming
with further allegations against MPs | 0:02:00 | 0:02:08 | |
in the sexual harassment scandal,
which according to one newspaper has | 0:02:08 | 0:02:11 | |
left Westminster frozen in fear. | 0:02:11 | 0:02:12 | |
First Secretary of State Damian
Green, already under | 0:02:12 | 0:02:14 | |
investigation over allegations -
which he strongly denies - | 0:02:14 | 0:02:16 | |
of propositioning a female activist,
is the subject of new claims that | 0:02:16 | 0:02:19 | |
police discovered pornography
on a computer in his Westminster | 0:02:19 | 0:02:21 | |
office in 2008. | 0:02:21 | 0:02:23 | |
Mr Green denies the allegation,
made by former senior | 0:02:23 | 0:02:25 | |
police officer Bob Quick,
saying it is "completely untrue," | 0:02:25 | 0:02:27 | |
and adding that he is the victim
of disreputable "political smears." | 0:02:27 | 0:02:36 | |
Michael Fallon, who resigned
as Defence Secretary this week | 0:02:36 | 0:02:38 | |
over his past behaviour,
is also subject to fresh claims | 0:02:38 | 0:02:40 | |
he lunged at a female journalist
in 2003 after a lunch. | 0:02:40 | 0:02:46 | |
Labour is facing questions
over its handling of sexual | 0:02:46 | 0:02:48 | |
misconduct allegations. | 0:02:48 | 0:02:55 | |
This morning Shadow Cabinet minister
Dawn Butler refused to be drawn | 0:02:55 | 0:02:58 | |
on whether Jeremy Corbyn knew
about alleged misconduct by MP | 0:02:58 | 0:03:00 | |
Kelvin Hopkins when he was promoted
to the Shadow Cabinet. | 0:03:00 | 0:03:08 | |
And there is a reminder that normal
political life goes on, | 0:03:08 | 0:03:11 | |
with reports that the Cabinet has
agreed to put housing at the heart | 0:03:11 | 0:03:14 | |
of Philip Hammond's upcoming Budget. | 0:03:14 | 0:03:15 | |
Well, let's hear from
Home Secretary Amber Rudd now - | 0:03:15 | 0:03:17 | |
she was on the Andrew Marr Show
earlier talking about the claims | 0:03:17 | 0:03:20 | |
against her Cabinet colleague Damian
Green. | 0:03:20 | 0:03:23 | |
Absolutely not. I think it is
something that will take place in | 0:03:23 | 0:03:29 | |
terms of clearing out Westminster of
that sort of behaviour, and I think | 0:03:29 | 0:03:34 | |
that Westminster afterwards,
including the Government, will be | 0:03:34 | 0:03:36 | |
better for it. When we are confident
that men and women can work any | 0:03:36 | 0:03:45 | |
respectful environment and people on
the receiving end of abuse of power | 0:03:45 | 0:03:47 | |
can come forward. That will be a
positive thing. | 0:03:47 | 0:03:54 | |
Let's see what our panel make of
this fairly explosive week. Good | 0:03:54 | 0:03:58 | |
morning to all of you. Starting with
you, Steve. Not a party political | 0:03:58 | 0:04:05 | |
issue but the Tories are in
Government. How much harder for them | 0:04:05 | 0:04:08 | |
is it an Labour? Always harder when
you are in Government because it | 0:04:08 | 0:04:13 | |
makes governing almost impossible.
And the wider context is a Prime | 0:04:13 | 0:04:16 | |
Minister who lost her overall
majority a few months ago and | 0:04:16 | 0:04:19 | |
actually that is the context of
everything. When you are having to | 0:04:19 | 0:04:23 | |
deal with the scandal of such
unpredictability, where the | 0:04:23 | 0:04:26 | |
terms are so imprecise, it is a
"lunge", a resignation issue, to use | 0:04:26 | 0:04:37 | |
that term, and nightmare. I don't
think it is fatal. Scandals rarely | 0:04:37 | 0:04:41 | |
bring down governments, but it makes
governing for Theresa May a form of | 0:04:41 | 0:04:47 | |
political health. Isabel Oakeshott,
Damian Green has denied all | 0:04:47 | 0:04:50 | |
allegations made against him, but
there are more this morning. He is | 0:04:50 | 0:04:54 | |
being investigated by the Cabinet
Office at the moment. If Theresa May | 0:04:54 | 0:04:59 | |
were to effectively lose her Deputy
Prime Minister, has serious without | 0:04:59 | 0:05:02 | |
the? I think very serious indeed. I
think it is very significant and | 0:05:02 | 0:05:07 | |
strange he was not defended in the
Home Secretary Amber Rudd in that | 0:05:07 | 0:05:11 | |
clip we saw today, she didn't say I
am certain he will survive, and I am | 0:05:11 | 0:05:15 | |
beginning to feel that Damian may
not survive this. We don't know | 0:05:15 | 0:05:19 | |
whether it is the last of the
allegations that may come out in | 0:05:19 | 0:05:23 | |
relation to him. It seems to me that
the allegations were previously of a | 0:05:23 | 0:05:27 | |
rather minor order, but this seems
to have escalated. And I think one | 0:05:27 | 0:05:33 | |
of the big problems for Theresa May,
and there are the many at the | 0:05:33 | 0:05:36 | |
moment, for months we have been
saying that this Government has no | 0:05:36 | 0:05:42 | |
bandwidth to do anything except
Brexit and right now she can't even | 0:05:42 | 0:05:45 | |
do Brexit. What is the point of it
all? It is important to make clear | 0:05:45 | 0:05:49 | |
not only that Damian Green denies
all of these allegations, but the | 0:05:49 | 0:05:53 | |
computer mentioned was in a shared
office so there is no reason it | 0:05:53 | 0:05:59 | |
would definitely be his
# No guarantee it would definitely | 0:05:59 | 0:06:03 | |
be his. But we have had two MPs on
television this morning, Anna | 0:06:03 | 0:06:15 | |
Soubry, saying he should stand down.
There is an awful lot going on here. | 0:06:15 | 0:06:20 | |
It is not just a pretty awful sexual
harassment scandal. There are also | 0:06:20 | 0:06:26 | |
without a doubt MPs, police
officers, going about settling | 0:06:26 | 0:06:30 | |
scores. For me I have to say for our
pretty discredited police officer | 0:06:30 | 0:06:35 | |
Bob Quick, to make accusations
against serving Cabinet minister, to | 0:06:35 | 0:06:38 | |
suggest he should go for extreme
pornography on computers he may or | 0:06:38 | 0:06:46 | |
may not have known, it may be
extremely distasteful but it is | 0:06:46 | 0:06:49 | |
alarming for democracy to have
ex-police officers like this coming | 0:06:49 | 0:06:52 | |
in and trying to play with
democracy. Some politicians are also | 0:06:52 | 0:06:56 | |
meeting claims, some for the right
reasons to get the allegations out | 0:06:56 | 0:06:59 | |
there and so on but others for their
own agendas and all of this puts the | 0:06:59 | 0:07:02 | |
Prime Minister in an unbelievably
hard situation. I agree with Steve | 0:07:02 | 0:07:06 | |
and Isabel, she desperately needs
two show leadership in all this, but | 0:07:06 | 0:07:10 | |
every way she could turn there are
incredible downfalls, people blaming | 0:07:10 | 0:07:13 | |
her for trying to get to the bottom
of all this. It is very people who | 0:07:13 | 0:07:17 | |
she is relying on for her
leadership, the very Tory MPs the | 0:07:17 | 0:07:22 | |
support she can't lose. It is not
just the Tory party and of course | 0:07:22 | 0:07:25 | |
Jeremy Corbyn will be making a
speech later today where this will | 0:07:25 | 0:07:29 | |
inevitably and there are accusations
about how the senior leadership in | 0:07:29 | 0:07:32 | |
the Labour Party have handled this.
What about that situation? Yes, but | 0:07:32 | 0:07:38 | |
the Government is much harder
because you are meant to be doing | 0:07:38 | 0:07:40 | |
10,000 other things at the same
time. This is about a deregulated | 0:07:40 | 0:07:44 | |
work environment. For all those who
say, I hate the way Britain is too | 0:07:44 | 0:07:48 | |
regulated, this is what happens in a
deregulated work environment. The | 0:07:48 | 0:07:50 | |
House of Commons has no HR or
whatever, MPs, advisors, so, MPs | 0:07:50 | 0:08:00 | |
actually don't have much power but
they do have power over who the | 0:08:00 | 0:08:03 | |
point and how to treat them. I think
this is the way forward in terms of | 0:08:03 | 0:08:07 | |
the practical outcome, but it is
across the political spectrum. But | 0:08:07 | 0:08:10 | |
it is unclear what it will be. Can
the party sort this out? I'm not | 0:08:10 | 0:08:16 | |
sure I entirely agree, Steve, you
cannot regulate all human | 0:08:16 | 0:08:19 | |
interaction and a lot of these
stories have been about interactions | 0:08:19 | 0:08:23 | |
between politicians and journalists
alike, who have gone out for lunch, | 0:08:23 | 0:08:28 | |
chosen to drink, presumably to
create an informal atmosphere, and | 0:08:28 | 0:08:33 | |
at what point is a step towards
somebody to say goodbye, a peck on | 0:08:33 | 0:08:38 | |
the cheek or whatever, a lunge? You
can't regulate that sort of thing. | 0:08:38 | 0:08:43 | |
Throughout the programme will come
back to some of these things and how | 0:08:43 | 0:08:48 | |
they might be regulated. | 0:08:48 | 0:08:50 | |
Now, the Home Secretary has
also today been talking | 0:08:50 | 0:08:52 | |
about what she calls the "moral
duty" of social media companies | 0:08:52 | 0:08:54 | |
to stop child sexual exploitation,
ahead of a meeting with her US | 0:08:54 | 0:08:57 | |
counterparts this week. | 0:08:57 | 0:08:58 | |
We're joined now by the Home Office
minister Sarah Newton - | 0:08:58 | 0:09:01 | |
she's in our Truro studio. | 0:09:01 | 0:09:03 | |
Thanks very much for coming in to
speak the first night. I want to | 0:09:03 | 0:09:06 | |
talk to you about the Government's
efforts to tackle child pornography, | 0:09:06 | 0:09:09 | |
but let's pick up on some of the
sexual harassment issues at | 0:09:09 | 0:09:13 | |
Westminster first. Two of your
parliamentary colleagues this | 0:09:13 | 0:09:16 | |
morning saying they think the first
Secretary of State Damian Green | 0:09:16 | 0:09:19 | |
should step down whilst being
investigated. Do you agree? Look, he | 0:09:19 | 0:09:26 | |
has vigorously denied these
accusations, and the Cabinet Office | 0:09:26 | 0:09:32 | |
is investigating these accusations,
so we do have processes for when | 0:09:32 | 0:09:37 | |
ministers have these accusations
made against them so they are | 0:09:37 | 0:09:39 | |
properly investigated. And that is
what is going on at the moment. Is | 0:09:39 | 0:09:44 | |
that process people can be confident
in? He is effectively being | 0:09:44 | 0:09:49 | |
investigated by Jeremy Heywood, one
of his colleagues. This is a tried | 0:09:49 | 0:09:55 | |
and tested process that has stood
the test of time, and it is | 0:09:55 | 0:09:59 | |
important... Has it? Surely what we
are learning is it has not stood the | 0:09:59 | 0:10:03 | |
test of time and that in fact
allegations like this have been | 0:10:03 | 0:10:06 | |
swept under the carpet and ignored
for years and years in Westminster, | 0:10:06 | 0:10:10 | |
exactly what we are learning right
now. I think you are conflating two | 0:10:10 | 0:10:14 | |
things they are, and what we really
do need to do is look at the whole | 0:10:14 | 0:10:18 | |
range of allegations people have
been making, and make sure | 0:10:18 | 0:10:22 | |
Parliament is a safe place for
people to work, a respectful | 0:10:22 | 0:10:26 | |
environment for people who have been
subjected to harassment or bullying | 0:10:26 | 0:10:32 | |
or inappropriate behaviour, so that
they feel confident to come forward | 0:10:32 | 0:10:34 | |
knowing they will be listened to,
that there will be an open and | 0:10:34 | 0:10:38 | |
transparent and fair to everyone
concerned process for getting to the | 0:10:38 | 0:10:41 | |
bottom of it, and that is exactly
what the Prime Minister and the | 0:10:41 | 0:10:45 | |
Leader of the Cows have set out,
Prime Minister's meeting with all | 0:10:45 | 0:10:51 | |
the leaders of the parties tomorrow
to set out a proper process so we | 0:10:51 | 0:10:56 | |
can modernise the work environment
at Westminster -- leader of the | 0:10:56 | 0:11:04 | |
House have set out. You think Damian
Green should remain in the Cabinet | 0:11:04 | 0:11:08 | |
well being investigated? That will
be down to Sir Jeremy Heywood. If he | 0:11:08 | 0:11:13 | |
thinks the misdemeanours have a
basis, that he should stand aside, | 0:11:13 | 0:11:17 | |
that will be the recommendation. I
will not second the inquiry on what | 0:11:17 | 0:11:23 | |
Sir Jeremy Heywood finds. You were
in the Whips' Office yourself for a | 0:11:23 | 0:11:27 | |
year. And much has been said this
week of the whips being in receipt | 0:11:27 | 0:11:31 | |
of a lot of information about bad
behaviour, and instead of reporting | 0:11:31 | 0:11:35 | |
it to authorities they were using it
as ammunition. Was that your | 0:11:35 | 0:11:39 | |
experience? Absolutely not. I was at
the Whips' Office up to 2015 and, | 0:11:39 | 0:11:45 | |
yes, I heard about the rumours of a
black spreadsheet, and I can | 0:11:45 | 0:11:48 | |
certainly say I never saw such a
thing. How I went about my business | 0:11:48 | 0:11:52 | |
as a whip is really twofold. It is
quite a technical job in many ways, | 0:11:52 | 0:11:57 | |
about of the Government through the
House, working with the House | 0:11:57 | 0:12:03 | |
authorities, the opposition. Also...
Did you ever hear rumours of these | 0:12:03 | 0:12:07 | |
people's bad behaviour? Sorry? Did
you ever hear rumours of MPs | 0:12:07 | 0:12:15 | |
misbehaving, sexual harassment,
allegations are that? If anybody had | 0:12:15 | 0:12:18 | |
brought a complaint to me about the
behaviour of one of the MPs who were | 0:12:18 | 0:12:22 | |
in my flock, I would take that
really seriously, but bull-mac, that | 0:12:22 | 0:12:27 | |
didn't happen. You said nobody
brought you a complaint. Did you | 0:12:27 | 0:12:30 | |
hear rumours? -- but no, that didn't
happen. About the members of my | 0:12:30 | 0:12:37 | |
flock? Absolutely not. Is that the
MPs you were specifically in charge | 0:12:37 | 0:12:40 | |
of? I did not have that experience
at all. Let's move on and talk about | 0:12:40 | 0:12:47 | |
the Home Secretary's trip to
Washington this week, where she will | 0:12:47 | 0:12:51 | |
urge tech companies to go further
and faster on online child abuse. We | 0:12:51 | 0:12:54 | |
have heard a lot from this
Government urging these companies to | 0:12:54 | 0:12:58 | |
do something. One specific ideas of
what they could do, do you have a | 0:12:58 | 0:13:02 | |
clear idea of what you are asking
from tech companies? Absolutely | 0:13:02 | 0:13:05 | |
right. As you know, this horrendous
crime of child sexual exploitation | 0:13:05 | 0:13:11 | |
and grooming is constantly evolving
as the opportunities for the | 0:13:11 | 0:13:16 | |
perpetrators arise. They are now
using live streaming, different | 0:13:16 | 0:13:20 | |
sorts of platforms, which are
largely controlled by the big | 0:13:20 | 0:13:25 | |
companies in America. What we really
want them to do is to step up and | 0:13:25 | 0:13:29 | |
use their huge expertise, used the
huge money they have got, to help | 0:13:29 | 0:13:34 | |
find technological solutions to read
their sites and rid the opportunity | 0:13:34 | 0:13:38 | |
of these paedophiles to be able to
groom young people. We need the | 0:13:38 | 0:13:41 | |
politicians in America to exert
pressure, as well as other | 0:13:41 | 0:13:49 | |
companies, because these are global
problems. We are not going to solve | 0:13:49 | 0:13:52 | |
this problem in the UK alone. We
have made a lot of progress, working | 0:13:52 | 0:13:56 | |
with Facebook and other companies as
well, but we really need to keep one | 0:13:56 | 0:14:00 | |
step ahead of the technology, one
step ahead of the perpetrators, who | 0:14:00 | 0:14:05 | |
are using these opportunities to
commit horrendous crimes. | 0:14:05 | 0:14:10 | |
It was back in 2014 Theresa May for
the Internet companies to do more in | 0:14:10 | 0:14:14 | |
terms of child abuse online and we
have not seen significant action, | 0:14:14 | 0:14:18 | |
and it does not appear these kind of
calls from the Government actually | 0:14:18 | 0:14:21 | |
make difference.
Well, at the moment we are seeing | 0:14:21 | 0:14:27 | |
the police being able to make about
400 arrests per month, about 500 | 0:14:27 | 0:14:32 | |
children being safeguarded. The
Government itself is investing a lot | 0:14:32 | 0:14:36 | |
of money in new technology like the
project Arachnid, and making sure | 0:14:36 | 0:14:42 | |
the police have the specialist
resources they need to go | 0:14:42 | 0:14:45 | |
undercover, and absolutely find
these perpetrators and bring them to | 0:14:45 | 0:14:48 | |
justice, but we do need to
constantly have the engagement and | 0:14:48 | 0:14:51 | |
support of the companies themselves
to invest in further technologies to | 0:14:51 | 0:14:56 | |
prevent this from happening. As you
say, we have made progress but we | 0:14:56 | 0:14:59 | |
need to see yet more. Sarah Newton,
thank you very much for speaking to | 0:14:59 | 0:15:04 | |
us today. | 0:15:04 | 0:15:06 | |
Michael Fallon's decision
to resign this week, | 0:15:06 | 0:15:07 | |
saying his past conduct with women
fell short of the standard expected | 0:15:07 | 0:15:12 | |
of the Armed Forces, led
to something of a minor reshuffle. | 0:15:12 | 0:15:15 | |
And the Prime Minister took
Westminster by surprise | 0:15:15 | 0:15:17 | |
when she announced his replacement,
former Chief Whip and relative | 0:15:17 | 0:15:19 | |
newcomer to the ministerial
ranks, Gavin Williamson. | 0:15:19 | 0:15:21 | |
Here he is speaking on the day
of his appointment. | 0:15:21 | 0:15:26 | |
It's an immense privilege to have
been appointed Secretary | 0:15:26 | 0:15:28 | |
of State for Defence,
and what we need to be doing | 0:15:28 | 0:15:31 | |
is continuing to focus
on countering Daesh, | 0:15:31 | 0:15:33 | |
making sure that our national
security is at the forefront | 0:15:33 | 0:15:35 | |
of everything that we do,
and we have some of the world's | 0:15:35 | 0:15:38 | |
greatest armed services,
and it's such a privilege to be able | 0:15:38 | 0:15:41 | |
to work with them. | 0:15:41 | 0:15:47 | |
Gavin Williamson, who you saw there,
arrives at the Ministry of Defence | 0:15:47 | 0:15:50 | |
at a challenging time
for UK defence. | 0:15:50 | 0:15:52 | |
The Government has promised
an above-inflation increase | 0:15:52 | 0:15:53 | |
in spending every year
but the Ministry of Defence | 0:15:53 | 0:15:55 | |
is already committed to finding
£20 billion of savings | 0:15:55 | 0:15:58 | |
over the next ten years. | 0:15:58 | 0:15:59 | |
The Cabinet Office is currently
conducting a security review | 0:15:59 | 0:16:01 | |
which will look at military
capabilities and funding up to 2022, | 0:16:01 | 0:16:04 | |
while there are continuing
reports of shortages | 0:16:04 | 0:16:05 | |
of manpower and equipment. | 0:16:05 | 0:16:10 | |
And if Labour were to win power,
questions persist over | 0:16:10 | 0:16:12 | |
what a Jeremy Corbyn premiership
would mean for defence budget | 0:16:12 | 0:16:15 | |
and the traditional cornerstones
of UK defence policy | 0:16:15 | 0:16:17 | |
like Trident and Nato. | 0:16:17 | 0:16:18 | |
Well we're joined now
by the Shadow Defence | 0:16:18 | 0:16:20 | |
secretary, Nia Griffith. | 0:16:20 | 0:16:23 | |
Well we're joined now
by the Shadow Defence | 0:16:23 | 0:16:25 | |
secretary, Nia Griffith. | 0:16:25 | 0:16:31 | |
Let's talk about defence spending
first. Would Labour commit to the | 0:16:31 | 0:16:35 | |
same thing this Government has which
is an above inflation increase in | 0:16:35 | 0:16:39 | |
spending every year? We've been
absolutely clear about that. First | 0:16:39 | 0:16:43 | |
and foremost we'd meet our
commitment of spending at least 2% | 0:16:43 | 0:16:48 | |
of GDP on defence as is our Nato
commitment and we would match the | 0:16:48 | 0:16:55 | |
Government's year-on-year 0.5%
increase above inflation. This is | 0:16:55 | 0:16:58 | |
really important. Labour's always
had a good strong track record of | 0:16:58 | 0:17:01 | |
spending on defence. Jeremy Corbyn
seems to have a different view. | 0:17:01 | 0:17:05 | |
Speaking at a protest in 2010 he
said Labour wanted to fight all the | 0:17:05 | 0:17:10 | |
cuts except those in the Armed
Forces where we want to see a few | 0:17:10 | 0:17:14 | |
more cuts taking place. He doesn't
seem committed to defence spending? | 0:17:14 | 0:17:19 | |
In the manifesto for this year's
election, 2017, he and John | 0:17:19 | 0:17:23 | |
McDonnell have been absolutely clear
we support the exact words I've been | 0:17:23 | 0:17:27 | |
using now, at least 2% of the spend
of GDP spent on defence. Jeremy | 0:17:27 | 0:17:33 | |
Corbyn's changed his mind on that?
He's been very clear about that and | 0:17:33 | 0:17:37 | |
it was in our manifesto this year.
You criticised the Government on | 0:17:37 | 0:17:42 | |
whether they meet their 2%
commitment on defence. You saying | 0:17:42 | 0:17:47 | |
they were fiddling the figures
because they were including | 0:17:47 | 0:17:50 | |
pensions. You would strip that out
and snake sure there's 2% spending | 0:17:50 | 0:17:56 | |
on defence which doesn't include
pensions? Technically, the | 0:17:56 | 0:17:59 | |
Government would argue you are
allowed to include pensions by the | 0:17:59 | 0:18:01 | |
Nato rules. But we've been very
clear, really, when you're talking | 0:18:01 | 0:18:07 | |
about defence spending it should
mean defence. When you look at the | 0:18:07 | 0:18:11 | |
last year of the Labour Government
we spent 2.5% GDP on defence. We are | 0:18:11 | 0:18:16 | |
very much committed to looking at
what we need in our defence budget | 0:18:16 | 0:18:22 | |
and looking to the problems they
have now where they can't meet the | 0:18:22 | 0:18:26 | |
commitments they've made. You would
sprip pensions out of those figures. | 0:18:26 | 0:18:30 | |
In order to live up to these
commitments you have to find an | 0:18:30 | 0:18:36 | |
extra billion for the defence
budgets because we're not | 0:18:36 | 0:18:40 | |
calculating pensions anymore? John
McDonnell is well aware of what they | 0:18:40 | 0:18:43 | |
are doing. Putting in the conflict
resolution money which Gordon Brown | 0:18:43 | 0:18:48 | |
kept separate. He is well aware of
the figures and the difficulties. We | 0:18:48 | 0:18:53 | |
are certainly very committed to a
defence budget that really does make | 0:18:53 | 0:18:57 | |
a difference. I'm not clear whether
you're telling me it will be 2% 69 | 0:18:57 | 0:19:02 | |
spending, excluding pensions? We
want it to be 2% of GDP as in the | 0:19:02 | 0:19:08 | |
way Labour always calculate it had
up until 2010, not including | 0:19:08 | 0:19:12 | |
pensions. A significant increase in
military spending? We are talking | 0:19:12 | 0:19:16 | |
about making sure the spending we
need is there because, at the | 0:19:16 | 0:19:21 | |
current situation, we have with the
current Government, they are | 0:19:21 | 0:19:24 | |
overstretched. Even the very caution
National Audit Office says they are | 0:19:24 | 0:19:29 | |
at immense risk of not being able to
meet the expenditure commitment the | 0:19:29 | 0:19:35 | |
they have made. Others talk about a
black hole. You mentioned it that | 0:19:35 | 0:19:40 | |
£20 billion. There is a real issue
we have to address. To you know what | 0:19:40 | 0:19:47 | |
it will cost, how muchedingsal funds
will have to be found? We have to | 0:19:47 | 0:19:51 | |
rook at what are the needs at the
time as well as the facts we want to | 0:19:51 | 0:19:57 | |
make that 2% commitment not
including things which have just | 0:19:57 | 0:20:01 | |
been brushed in now by the
Conservative Government. Let's move | 0:20:01 | 0:20:05 | |
on to a different aspect of defence.
There is a treaty banning nuclear | 0:20:05 | 0:20:11 | |
weapons opened at the UN for
signatories. 122 countries have | 0:20:11 | 0:20:14 | |
already signed it. Would an incoming
Labour Government sign that treaty? | 0:20:14 | 0:20:20 | |
The important point here is there
was an Is inned opportunity for | 0:20:20 | 0:20:23 | |
there to be observers from the UK.
There should have been at that | 0:20:23 | 0:20:28 | |
treaty talks. That doesn't change
the calculation whether or not an | 0:20:28 | 0:20:33 | |
incoming Labour Government would
sign that treaty? We are committed | 0:20:33 | 0:20:40 | |
to a strong multi-lateral disarming
programme. That's what we've seen | 0:20:40 | 0:20:45 | |
missing. This is a multilateral
approach to try to get rid of | 0:20:45 | 0:20:49 | |
nuclear weapons. What you say you
want. Would a Labour Government sign | 0:20:49 | 0:20:53 | |
that treaty? You we have to look at
how you go about things. We need toe | 0:20:53 | 0:20:58 | |
somebody clear we want to
de-escalate tensions across the | 0:20:58 | 0:21:01 | |
world. Work with other nuclear
partners to help stop the | 0:21:01 | 0:21:06 | |
proliferation of nuclear weapons. We
want to work with those countries | 0:21:06 | 0:21:10 | |
who feel very strongly about the
treaty so we can work together. We | 0:21:10 | 0:21:15 | |
have to do that in a multilateral
framework. This is a multi-lateral | 0:21:15 | 0:21:22 | |
disarmament framework. Under the
auspice Is of the UN disto see how | 0:21:22 | 0:21:26 | |
else it could be organised. This is
a great opportunity for you, who | 0:21:26 | 0:21:29 | |
have been a lifelong campaigner for
disarmament.ment Labour Government | 0:21:29 | 0:21:35 | |
will be the first nuclear power to
do so, sign it and lead the way. We | 0:21:35 | 0:21:40 | |
need to use our position to be
responsible and call for responsible | 0:21:40 | 0:21:45 | |
multi-lateral disarmamentment there
was progress made on this in the | 0:21:45 | 0:21:48 | |
eighties and nineties with
considerable amount of are heads put | 0:21:48 | 0:21:51 | |
to one side and destroyed. We need
to get back on the front foot there. | 0:21:51 | 0:21:55 | |
I don't see any presence by the UK
Government at the moment on that | 0:21:55 | 0:21:58 | |
aagain da. It is not helpful for the
nukes leer nations to be separated | 0:21:58 | 0:22:03 | |
from the non-nuclear nation in the
these debates. That's why I don't | 0:22:03 | 0:22:09 | |
understand why you're not taking the
opportunity to say a Labour | 0:22:09 | 0:22:13 | |
Government would Take The Stand. We
should wok together and we should | 0:22:13 | 0:22:17 | |
use our position as a nuclear power
to work for a multilateral | 0:22:17 | 0:22:22 | |
disarmament programme. You were very
clear in your manifesto that the | 0:22:22 | 0:22:26 | |
Labour Party would keep Trident for
the meantime. Abs will yously. We | 0:22:26 | 0:22:30 | |
know throughout his life, Jeremy
Corbyn's long wanted to get rid of | 0:22:30 | 0:22:33 | |
it. He signed up to the manifesto
saying Trident would stay. Has he | 0:22:33 | 0:22:40 | |
changed his minds? The important
thing is that was a manifesto | 0:22:40 | 0:22:45 | |
Jeremy, John McDonnell's agreed to.
We stood on it in 2017 because that | 0:22:45 | 0:22:49 | |
is the Labour Party position.
Absolutely. I'm asking if the Labour | 0:22:49 | 0:22:54 | |
Leader really believes in that
position? He believes in democracy | 0:22:54 | 0:22:57 | |
in the party. That is the Labour
Party position. I don't see that | 0:22:57 | 0:23:00 | |
position changing at all. He has
said very clearly that he accepts | 0:23:00 | 0:23:04 | |
that is our Labour Party position.
And that is the manifesto we've | 0:23:04 | 0:23:08 | |
stood on and will continue to stand
on. I'll need to ask questions about | 0:23:08 | 0:23:13 | |
sexual harassment in Westminster. It
is as much as inissue for the Labour | 0:23:13 | 0:23:18 | |
Party as the Conservative. It was
not clear listening to Dawn Butler, | 0:23:18 | 0:23:22 | |
your colleague on The Andrew Marr
Show this morning, she was asked | 0:23:22 | 0:23:25 | |
whether or not the leadership knew
about allegations by Kelvin Hopkins. | 0:23:25 | 0:23:29 | |
Do you know? I absolutely do not
know at this moment in time. That's | 0:23:29 | 0:23:34 | |
why there has to be an
investigation. It is extremely | 0:23:34 | 0:23:36 | |
important to find out what the
allegations were, exactly what | 0:23:36 | 0:23:41 | |
happened, who was told and who told
what to whom. Then we will be in a | 0:23:41 | 0:23:46 | |
position to see what the situation
is. In the meantime, Kelvin Hopkins | 0:23:46 | 0:23:50 | |
has been suspended which is the
cricket thing to do. Rosie Winterton | 0:23:50 | 0:23:57 | |
has been outspoken about what she
let the leadership know. If it is | 0:23:57 | 0:24:02 | |
the case the leadership did know
about these allegations should he | 0:24:02 | 0:24:05 | |
have been put into the Shadow
Cabinet? The real question is who | 0:24:05 | 0:24:09 | |
did know what when. But what I'm
asking you is... I am anot going to | 0:24:09 | 0:24:15 | |
speculate whether there was an if or
whatever. We need to know how that | 0:24:15 | 0:24:20 | |
information was transmitted. Was it
put in writing. What it made clear, | 0:24:20 | 0:24:24 | |
who was told what, when. Until we
have a full investigation it would | 0:24:24 | 0:24:28 | |
be inappropriate to comment. What is
absolute lie clear, we need to get | 0:24:28 | 0:24:32 | |
this right for the future. We must
have proper procedures so we deal | 0:24:32 | 0:24:36 | |
with incidents as and when they
occur. And we deal with them | 0:24:36 | 0:24:41 | |
prepperly in a way which gets to the
bottom of the issue and deals with | 0:24:41 | 0:24:44 | |
it properly. Why should anyone have
confidence the Labour Party will | 0:24:44 | 0:24:49 | |
treat issues that seriously when,
firstly there's a question whether | 0:24:49 | 0:24:53 | |
they knew about Kelvin hop kips and
others have been dissuaded from | 0:24:53 | 0:24:58 | |
making complaints. Knots just Bex
Bailey. Monica Lennon said when she | 0:24:58 | 0:25:03 | |
was harassed at a party senior
figures in the Labour Party told her | 0:25:03 | 0:25:08 | |
it was her own fault. It seems as if
there hasn't been a culture within | 0:25:08 | 0:25:14 | |
Labour to make a complaint. That's
why we're having a thorough review | 0:25:14 | 0:25:20 | |
of procedures. We brought in new
procedures in July. We need to | 0:25:20 | 0:25:24 | |
ensure there's a proper helpline
available. We are appointing an | 0:25:24 | 0:25:30 | |
independent organisation which will
deal with allegations first-hand so | 0:25:30 | 0:25:32 | |
nobody has to go to somebody they
think might know other people, be | 0:25:32 | 0:25:36 | |
friends with other people. They can
go somewhere completely confidential | 0:25:36 | 0:25:41 | |
and private. These are often things
you can't want to tell your cross | 0:25:41 | 0:25:46 | |
friends about. We will appoint that
organisation and make sure people | 0:25:46 | 0:25:50 | |
can go there and access to it is
made widely known. It is very, very | 0:25:50 | 0:25:55 | |
important when people come into a
job, they know if anything does | 0:25:55 | 0:25:58 | |
happen, they will be able to
complain. Whether they are ordinary | 0:25:58 | 0:26:02 | |
party members or working in
Westminster. Thank you for talking | 0:26:02 | 0:26:08 | |
to us | 0:26:08 | 0:26:08 | |
For Thank you for talking to us some | 0:26:08 | 0:26:10 | |
on the left of politics, | 0:26:10 | 0:26:12 | |
this weekend wasn't just a chance | 0:26:12 | 0:26:14 | |
to mark the anniversary
of the failed gunpowder | 0:26:14 | 0:26:16 | |
plot here in Britain,
but also events in Russia 100 years | 0:26:16 | 0:26:19 | |
ago, when Bolshevik revolutionaries
led by Lenin seized power | 0:26:19 | 0:26:21 | |
and ushered in seven
decades of Communist rule. | 0:26:21 | 0:26:23 | |
For critics, that's something
to regret, not celebrate. | 0:26:23 | 0:26:25 | |
Elizabeth Glinka went to one event
in London to find out more. | 0:26:25 | 0:26:26 | |
The 7th November 1917. | 0:26:31 | 0:26:33 | |
Red Guards under the leadership
of Vladimir Lenin begin to occupy | 0:26:33 | 0:26:37 | |
Government buildings in Petrograd. | 0:26:37 | 0:26:42 | |
This uprising, known
popularly as Red October | 0:26:42 | 0:26:44 | |
because of the difference
in the Gregorian calendar, | 0:26:44 | 0:26:47 | |
was, in fact, a coup. | 0:26:47 | 0:26:50 | |
The winds of socialist change had
been blowing for some time. | 0:26:50 | 0:26:54 | |
The Tsars had resisted reform
and millions toiled in a state | 0:26:54 | 0:26:59 | |
of almost medieval surfdom. | 0:26:59 | 0:27:01 | |
Then war. | 0:27:01 | 0:27:05 | |
Nearly two million
Russians would die. | 0:27:05 | 0:27:10 | |
The revolution had really begun nine
months earlier in February 1917. | 0:27:10 | 0:27:15 | |
The world's first socialist
republic was declared. | 0:27:15 | 0:27:21 | |
October, well that
was the Bolsheviks | 0:27:21 | 0:27:24 | |
asserting their authority. | 0:27:24 | 0:27:28 | |
A hundred years on, as this
event at the TUC shows, | 0:27:30 | 0:27:33 | |
there's still plenty of people
who want to remember and even | 0:27:33 | 0:27:36 | |
celebrate those momentous events. | 0:27:36 | 0:27:40 | |
Mainly as an event in history, | 0:27:40 | 0:27:43 | |
this is an example of historical
development in action, | 0:27:43 | 0:27:45 | |
the ability of people to club
together and be able to affect | 0:27:45 | 0:27:49 | |
the discourse of history. | 0:27:49 | 0:27:50 | |
It was people's first attempt at
trying to build socialism. | 0:27:50 | 0:27:53 | |
Although there were many terrible
things that happened, | 0:27:53 | 0:27:56 | |
I think we have to try
and draw from experience. | 0:27:56 | 0:27:58 | |
Jeremy Corbyn's close friend
and adviser, Andrew Murray, | 0:27:58 | 0:28:01 | |
was chairing the opening session. | 0:28:01 | 0:28:04 | |
He didn't want to talk to us
but we did manage to speak | 0:28:04 | 0:28:07 | |
to the daughter of one of the most
famous Communists of all time. | 0:28:07 | 0:28:13 | |
TRANSLATION: It's an historic moment | 0:28:13 | 0:28:16 | |
which opened up possibilities
for further changes | 0:28:16 | 0:28:19 | |
and allowed other people
to strive for a different world. | 0:28:19 | 0:28:21 | |
A world, which it seems,
some are still keen to push for. | 0:28:21 | 0:28:25 | |
We're growing, so there is obviously
a positive reflection. | 0:28:25 | 0:28:27 | |
There is a lot of negative
propaganda that comes | 0:28:27 | 0:28:29 | |
from the Cold War period. | 0:28:29 | 0:28:31 | |
It is harder to talk
to older people maybe. | 0:28:31 | 0:28:33 | |
But younger people
are quite receptive. | 0:28:33 | 0:28:35 | |
The events and discussions taking
place here today cover a whole range | 0:28:35 | 0:28:38 | |
of topics from women's
rights to the Third World | 0:28:38 | 0:28:42 | |
and the impact on British socialism. | 0:28:42 | 0:28:44 | |
But there's much less discussion
of the Russian Civil War, | 0:28:44 | 0:28:48 | |
the purges and the political
repression that would come later. | 0:28:48 | 0:28:52 | |
We wanted to have this conference | 0:28:52 | 0:28:54 | |
because we wanted to show it
in a positive light. | 0:28:54 | 0:28:57 | |
Whatever one's view of what happened
to the Soviet Union subsequently | 0:28:57 | 0:29:01 | |
the fact is it is important
to understand the process | 0:29:01 | 0:29:05 | |
of revolutionary change
for its own sake. | 0:29:05 | 0:29:08 | |
Red October would usher
in 70 years of communism. | 0:29:09 | 0:29:13 | |
The proletarite would rise,
find respect and security. | 0:29:13 | 0:29:16 | |
But the suppression of the peoples
of Eastern Europe, the forced labour | 0:29:16 | 0:29:20 | |
camps and the murder of hundreds
of thousands, if not millions | 0:29:20 | 0:29:24 | |
of people, make it difficult
for many to see that revolution | 0:29:24 | 0:29:28 | |
as something to celebrate. | 0:29:28 | 0:29:32 | |
That was Elizabeth Glinka reporting. | 0:29:33 | 0:29:35 | |
So is the centenary
of the Russian Revolution a cause | 0:29:35 | 0:29:37 | |
for celebration, or regret? | 0:29:37 | 0:29:39 | |
Well, to discuss this I'm
joined by former Labour | 0:29:39 | 0:29:41 | |
and Respect MP George Galloway,
and the journalist Peter Hitchens. | 0:29:41 | 0:29:47 | |
Good morning. Let me start with you
George Galloway. Is the October | 0:29:47 | 0:29:52 | |
revolution a cause for celebration?
With the, if not for the October | 0:29:52 | 0:29:56 | |
revolution, we'd been conducting
this interview in German. Though the | 0:29:56 | 0:30:00 | |
truth is this interview wouldn't be
taking place and we probably | 0:30:00 | 0:30:04 | |
wouldn't be alive for a variety of
reasons. The Soviet Union broke the | 0:30:04 | 0:30:11 | |
back of Hitler, as Mr Churchill
often owe pined in Parliament and | 0:30:11 | 0:30:14 | |
elsewhere. If not for the Soviet
Union, Hitler would have ruled. And | 0:30:14 | 0:30:22 | |
his successorsness, perhaps until
now, from Vladivostok all the way to | 0:30:22 | 0:30:27 | |
Portugal. You say we wouldn't be
able to have this discussion. In the | 0:30:27 | 0:30:32 | |
former Soviet Union we couldn't have
this office either? That's also | 0:30:32 | 0:30:34 | |
true. But even the... George will be
able to say, that of course. Even | 0:30:34 | 0:30:42 | |
the sun has spots on its face as
they used to say in the Soviet | 0:30:42 | 0:30:46 | |
Union. There is no doubt tremendous
abrasions, big crimes, a lot of | 0:30:46 | 0:30:55 | |
suffering but, if not for the
transformation, then the Soviet | 0:30:55 | 0:31:05 | |
Union, Russia's GDP increased from
1930 to 190 and the Nazi occupation. | 0:31:05 | 0:31:12 | |
And the strength that defeated
Hitlerism would not have been there. | 0:31:12 | 0:31:19 | |
Peter Hitchens, does it offend you
there are people celebrating 100 | 0:31:19 | 0:31:23 | |
years since the Russian Revolution?
Offend? No, but in the Soviet Union, | 0:31:23 | 0:31:28 | |
in which I lived, you would not have
been able to say it was set up by a | 0:31:28 | 0:31:33 | |
cynical bitch, almost bloodless, but
engineered by the German Imperial | 0:31:33 | 0:31:35 | |
Government using -- a cynical
putsch, almost bloodless. That this | 0:31:35 | 0:31:53 | |
was the inauguration of an immensely
long period of repression, | 0:31:53 | 0:31:58 | |
brutality, secret police,
concentration camps and lies, which | 0:31:58 | 0:32:02 | |
I am likely to have seen come to an
end in my lifetime, and I cannot see | 0:32:02 | 0:32:06 | |
why anybody looking at that
disastrous country where so much | 0:32:06 | 0:32:09 | |
misery was needlessly imposed on so
many people for so long could | 0:32:09 | 0:32:12 | |
possibly celebrate the beginning of
it, which was completely avoidable, | 0:32:12 | 0:32:15 | |
and as I say was truly the result of
the cynical foreign policy and | 0:32:15 | 0:32:21 | |
intelligence operations of the
Imperial German Government is trying | 0:32:21 | 0:32:23 | |
to save it skin... But everyone
including George Galloway | 0:32:23 | 0:32:27 | |
acknowledges the tyranny and terror
that followed. He doesn't. He gives | 0:32:27 | 0:32:32 | |
statistics about GDP but fails to
mention the people murdered in | 0:32:32 | 0:32:35 | |
labour | 0:32:35 | 0:32:42 | |
camp... He was of course formerly a
Trotskyite and sung the praises of | 0:32:42 | 0:32:48 | |
Lenin, which I have not done and
neither have I done today. I have | 0:32:48 | 0:32:52 | |
never been a Communist, unlike Peter
Hitchens, but I do acknowledge and | 0:32:52 | 0:32:56 | |
celebrate that an entirely different
world opened up as a result of the | 0:32:56 | 0:33:01 | |
events in October 19 17. China, you
have just seen their party congress, | 0:33:01 | 0:33:05 | |
decorated with the iconography of
the Bolshevik Revolution, and China | 0:33:05 | 0:33:10 | |
is the most powerful, or soon will
be the most powerful country on the | 0:33:10 | 0:33:13 | |
earth. With one of the most
repressive government? I don't think | 0:33:13 | 0:33:18 | |
that is true. There is repression in
China, but... Enormous repression in | 0:33:18 | 0:33:24 | |
China! How can you possibly argue
there is an? China has taken more | 0:33:24 | 0:33:28 | |
people out of poverty in the last 30
years than any country, resume, | 0:33:28 | 0:33:33 | |
system, ever has -- how can you
possibly argue there is not? All | 0:33:33 | 0:33:38 | |
despots always argue, trying to
distract your attention from the | 0:33:38 | 0:33:42 | |
mountains of skulls behind them,
their supposed economic success, | 0:33:42 | 0:33:46 | |
which generally does not turn out to
be as great as claimed. The Soviet | 0:33:46 | 0:33:49 | |
Union was an enormous pile of rust
by the time I lived there and was a | 0:33:49 | 0:33:54 | |
complete catastrophe. Yes, that is
why it fell down. But we are talking | 0:33:54 | 0:33:58 | |
about the Revolution 100 years ago.
Is it possible to separate the two | 0:33:58 | 0:34:04 | |
events? A popular overthrowing of a
government is perhaps different from | 0:34:04 | 0:34:07 | |
the tyranny and terror that
followed. It was not a popular | 0:34:07 | 0:34:12 | |
overthrow. You sure this Eisenstein
propaganda as if it were fact. What | 0:34:12 | 0:34:16 | |
we see was a film made afterwards.
What actually happened was a putsch | 0:34:16 | 0:34:21 | |
in the middle of the night in which
hardly anybody... Nobody has even | 0:34:21 | 0:34:30 | |
mentioned... That German connection,
a rather more important... Nobody | 0:34:30 | 0:34:37 | |
has even mentioned during this year
until now that there was a Russian | 0:34:37 | 0:34:40 | |
Revolution. There were two. The
first one was a genuine uprising, | 0:34:40 | 0:34:45 | |
overthrowing the old regime, and I
think we can all be glad of it. The | 0:34:45 | 0:34:48 | |
second one was a cynical for --
foreign financed putsch and it does | 0:34:48 | 0:34:55 | |
not deserve to be spoken out. Is
that true, and Menshevik revolution | 0:34:55 | 0:34:58 | |
would have done better than a
Bolshevik one? It is not my business | 0:34:58 | 0:35:04 | |
and entirely counterfactual fiction,
if I may... Unlike how you open this | 0:35:04 | 0:35:10 | |
discussion. That is the most
important thing. If not for the | 0:35:10 | 0:35:14 | |
Soviet Union, we wouldn't be here.
Hetmyer might still, and most of the | 0:35:14 | 0:35:21 | |
world, with its allies -- Adolph
Hitler might have won and they make, | 0:35:21 | 0:35:26 | |
and most of the world... The effect
of Bolshevism and coming is on | 0:35:26 | 0:35:31 | |
Europe was colossal. Let's bring it
all a little bit more up-to-date. | 0:35:31 | 0:35:34 | |
You were saying earlier you have
never been a Leninist, although | 0:35:34 | 0:35:40 | |
Peter Hitchens confesses he was at
one time. Absolutely was a | 0:35:40 | 0:35:46 | |
Trotskyist, and now nor the complete
folly of that particular political | 0:35:46 | 0:35:53 | |
disposition. John McDonnell in the
Labour Party openly says he is a | 0:35:53 | 0:35:57 | |
Trotskyist, a Leninist, is that a
problem for the Labour Party? I | 0:35:57 | 0:36:02 | |
would have thought, arts would be
more respected now than he has been | 0:36:02 | 0:36:05 | |
for quite some time as capitalism is
collapsing around our ears. From | 0:36:05 | 0:36:11 | |
2008 the Economist itself, the bible
of capitalism, began to resurrect | 0:36:11 | 0:36:17 | |
Marxist economics and analysis, so I
really don't think it is. Jeremy | 0:36:17 | 0:36:22 | |
Corbyn is not a Marxist. It only
took them four years, 54... It is | 0:36:22 | 0:36:32 | |
not that. I think we are moving into
an era where Governments like the | 0:36:32 | 0:36:39 | |
Chinese Government are making plans,
and are succeeding in implementing | 0:36:39 | 0:36:43 | |
them, and thus transforming their
position. China in 1949, and I don't | 0:36:43 | 0:36:49 | |
need to tell you, was just about the
most backward place you could | 0:36:49 | 0:36:52 | |
possibly imagine. And from 1949 to
now it has sold transforms that it | 0:36:52 | 0:36:59 | |
is the world's biggest economy... We
are in danger of getting sidetracked | 0:36:59 | 0:37:07 | |
by China here. I have to put this
point in. If China was backward in | 0:37:07 | 0:37:12 | |
1949 it was far more backward by the
time Mao Zedong finished his great | 0:37:12 | 0:37:16 | |
leap forward and starved millions of
people to death in the period of | 0:37:16 | 0:37:19 | |
economic lunacy. You just don't
notice... What George was saying | 0:37:19 | 0:37:25 | |
they are, and a sense certainly
amongst younger voters in this | 0:37:25 | 0:37:29 | |
country and others, where they are
turning against capitalism, they | 0:37:29 | 0:37:31 | |
don't think it has worked or
delivered for them, that this kind | 0:37:31 | 0:37:35 | |
of Marxist Leninist philosophy is
becoming more popular? Let's hope | 0:37:35 | 0:37:39 | |
not. The fact the current system is
failing does not seem to recommend | 0:37:39 | 0:37:43 | |
the Soviet system, which is
demonstrably a failure, and even its | 0:37:43 | 0:37:49 | |
own leaders admitted it failed and
that is why they tried to reform it | 0:37:49 | 0:37:52 | |
in the period I was there and why it
collapsed. Whatever you might want | 0:37:52 | 0:37:55 | |
to conclude from examining our
position, the Soviet alternative is | 0:37:55 | 0:37:58 | |
not the thing you want the dues.
This was a long period of disaster, | 0:37:58 | 0:38:01 | |
and I remember at the end of it
watching in Moscow said a film which | 0:38:01 | 0:38:06 | |
has never been shown here, and the
title means approximately we can't | 0:38:06 | 0:38:12 | |
go on living like this, and for the
first time, the politburo told the | 0:38:12 | 0:38:18 | |
truth about what life was like in
the dreadful place and everyone in | 0:38:18 | 0:38:20 | |
that cinema was weeping because
finally they saw the truth being | 0:38:20 | 0:38:23 | |
told about the dreadful
anti-civilisation in which they had | 0:38:23 | 0:38:26 | |
been taught to live for so long. The
idea we should celebrate it revive | 0:38:26 | 0:38:30 | |
it seems to me to be verging on the
obscene. George, one interesting | 0:38:30 | 0:38:34 | |
question about this of course,
whilst there are events going on in | 0:38:34 | 0:38:39 | |
London and across the UK to mark
this centenary, it is not being | 0:38:39 | 0:38:43 | |
celebrated in Russia. I was in
Russia a couple of weeks ago. There | 0:38:43 | 0:38:46 | |
is a big debate about whether it
ought to be, and many people are | 0:38:46 | 0:38:51 | |
celebrating it... Vladimir Putin is
not. He would want to ignore it. But | 0:38:51 | 0:38:55 | |
the Communist Party is the second
biggest party in Russia. And it is | 0:38:55 | 0:39:00 | |
the ruling party in China, which,
with respect, is not a separate | 0:39:00 | 0:39:06 | |
thing, because China is continuing
the Russian Revolution and doing | 0:39:06 | 0:39:08 | |
rather better at it than the
Russians did, but there are many | 0:39:08 | 0:39:13 | |
people, particularly older, that is
true, who think that the era of the | 0:39:13 | 0:39:17 | |
Soviet Union was better than the
very cold period of capitalism that | 0:39:17 | 0:39:23 | |
succeeded it. So half the world
followed for a time the red flag, | 0:39:23 | 0:39:30 | |
the red banner of Leninism. No one
will do so again. Leninism of the | 0:39:30 | 0:39:38 | |
kind that Peter used to proselytise
is certainly not coming back, but | 0:39:38 | 0:39:41 | |
Marxism is going to live on. Let's
hope not. Thank you both, gentlemen, | 0:39:41 | 0:39:47 | |
for coming on to speak about that. | 0:39:47 | 0:39:49 | |
It's coming up to 11.40am. | 0:39:49 | 0:39:50 | |
You're watching the Sunday Politics. | 0:39:50 | 0:39:51 | |
Coming up on the programme: | 0:39:51 | 0:39:54 | |
We've taken the moodbox to where
else but bonfire night celebrations. | 0:39:54 | 0:39:57 | |
We've taken the moodbox to where
else but bonfire night celebrations? | 0:39:57 | 0:40:00 | |
It wasn't just Westminster
that had the fireworks this week. | 0:40:00 | 0:40:02 | |
We're asking people in Guildford
in Surrey, | 0:40:02 | 0:40:04 | |
does Theresa May have control
of her Government and her party? | 0:40:04 | 0:40:05 | |
Hello, I'm Natalie Graham and this
is the Sunday Politics | 0:40:12 | 0:40:14 | |
in the South East. | 0:40:14 | 0:40:15 | |
Coming up later: | 0:40:15 | 0:40:17 | |
A longer journey to the Job Centre -
if you're on benefits | 0:40:17 | 0:40:20 | |
in parts of Kent. | 0:40:20 | 0:40:21 | |
We're going to be hearing
from campaigners concerned | 0:40:21 | 0:40:23 | |
about the decision to close several
centres in the county. | 0:40:23 | 0:40:28 | |
Joining me in the studio this
week are Henry Smith, | 0:40:28 | 0:40:30 | |
the Conservative MP for Crawley,
and Keith Taylor, who's the Green | 0:40:30 | 0:40:33 | |
MEP for the South East region. | 0:40:33 | 0:40:35 | |
Hi. | 0:40:35 | 0:40:36 | |
A warm welcome to you both. | 0:40:36 | 0:40:37 | |
There's a housing crisis
and it needs to be fixed. | 0:40:37 | 0:40:40 | |
That's the mantra
of many politicians. | 0:40:40 | 0:40:41 | |
But how? | 0:40:41 | 0:40:44 | |
The Government's come up
with a new way of working out | 0:40:44 | 0:40:46 | |
where houses should be
built, based on demand. | 0:40:46 | 0:40:51 | |
It would mean the south east
increasing the number | 0:40:51 | 0:40:53 | |
of new homes by up
to 40% in some areas. | 0:40:53 | 0:40:55 | |
But it's got Conservative MPs
and council leaders very cross. | 0:40:55 | 0:40:58 | |
Here's Sara Neville. | 0:40:58 | 0:41:02 | |
It seems we're all agreed
that the housing market is broken | 0:41:02 | 0:41:05 | |
and we need to build more homes. | 0:41:05 | 0:41:07 | |
But how many and where
is causing Conservative | 0:41:07 | 0:41:08 | |
dissent in the garden of England. | 0:41:09 | 0:41:11 | |
The Government reckons we need
266,000 more homes a year to meet | 0:41:11 | 0:41:15 | |
rising demand. | 0:41:15 | 0:41:18 | |
So, it is proposing a radical
new shake-up of the system | 0:41:18 | 0:41:28 | |
to accelerate development,
which would see most parts | 0:41:28 | 0:41:31 | |
of the south east building more
homes than is | 0:41:31 | 0:41:33 | |
currently planned. | 0:41:33 | 0:41:34 | |
While other areas have their
home-building targets cut. | 0:41:34 | 0:41:36 | |
Here, in the Medway
towns, it could mean | 0:41:36 | 0:41:38 | |
an extra 38,000 homes
in the | 0:41:38 | 0:41:40 | |
next 20 years - an impossible
target, according to the area's | 0:41:40 | 0:41:44 | |
three Conservative MPs. | 0:41:44 | 0:41:48 | |
Minister and Chatham MP
Tracey Crouch, Gillingham MP | 0:41:48 | 0:41:53 | |
Rehman Chishti and Rochester MP
Kelly Tolhurst have sent a warning | 0:41:53 | 0:41:58 | |
shot to the Government in the form
of a joint letter calling for an | 0:41:58 | 0:42:01 | |
urgent review of the new formula. | 0:42:01 | 0:42:03 | |
We need to build more
homes in Medway, | 0:42:03 | 0:42:04 | |
everybody recognises that. | 0:42:04 | 0:42:07 | |
But we need to do it
in a sustainable way | 0:42:07 | 0:42:12 | |
where we are able to provide the
infrastructure and the quality of | 0:42:12 | 0:42:15 | |
life for people that
are living in north Kent. | 0:42:15 | 0:42:17 | |
But I will keep making the case
as to why I think those | 0:42:17 | 0:42:20 | |
numbers are undeliverable
for Medway. | 0:42:20 | 0:42:21 | |
And it's not just MPs who are upset. | 0:42:21 | 0:42:24 | |
Projections for home-building are
currently set by the local authority | 0:42:24 | 0:42:28 | |
whose leaders are now speaking out. | 0:42:28 | 0:42:34 | |
One told us this week the plans
are nonsensical and take housing | 0:42:34 | 0:42:37 | |
numbers into the realms of fantasy. | 0:42:37 | 0:42:38 | |
Another with concerns
is the leader of Medway Council. | 0:42:38 | 0:42:42 | |
Well, I'm absolutely livid,
to be quite frank, because it is not | 0:42:42 | 0:42:45 | |
fair, it's not equitable. | 0:42:45 | 0:42:55 | |
It would inevitably mean a huge loss
of green spaces, open land. | 0:42:56 | 0:42:59 | |
What I am hearing is absolute
astonishment that some of | 0:42:59 | 0:43:02 | |
these numbers are
being consulted on. | 0:43:02 | 0:43:03 | |
I talk to leaders from all
across Kent, particularly | 0:43:03 | 0:43:05 | |
north and east Kent,
and not one of them are | 0:43:05 | 0:43:08 | |
happy with these numbers. | 0:43:08 | 0:43:09 | |
So, how would the new
targets be calculated? | 0:43:09 | 0:43:14 | |
Well, areas where house prices
are more than four times the average | 0:43:14 | 0:43:17 | |
income will have to build more
homes, which means Kent and Sussex | 0:43:17 | 0:43:21 | |
will have to develop more
than most other regions. | 0:43:21 | 0:43:27 | |
It would mean some 176,000
more houses in the | 0:43:27 | 0:43:31 | |
south east in the next ten years. | 0:43:31 | 0:43:34 | |
For Maidstone and Gravesham, it will
mean increasing their plan targets | 0:43:34 | 0:43:37 | |
by almost 40%. | 0:43:37 | 0:43:39 | |
Canterbury's house building
would increase by 37% and Swales | 0:43:39 | 0:43:42 | |
by 36%. | 0:43:42 | 0:43:46 | |
Meanwhile, in parts of East Sussex,
the figures would be | 0:43:46 | 0:43:50 | |
dramatically cut by 38% in Brighton,
30% in Hastings and just over 29% in | 0:43:50 | 0:43:54 | |
Crawley. | 0:43:54 | 0:43:58 | |
Some building is happening,
like here in Chatham where 77 new | 0:43:58 | 0:44:02 | |
homes are going up as part of a £12
million regeneration project. | 0:44:02 | 0:44:07 | |
Most of which are
affordable homes like these. | 0:44:07 | 0:44:10 | |
This social housing was built by one
of the biggest providers in | 0:44:10 | 0:44:13 | |
the south east, the chief executive
welcomes the Government's plans. | 0:44:13 | 0:44:16 | |
Everybody deserves a decent home and
we have to find a way of tackling | 0:44:16 | 0:44:19 | |
that. | 0:44:19 | 0:44:22 | |
There are so many people
across Kent who just can't get | 0:44:22 | 0:44:25 | |
access to the housing
they need and if this leads | 0:44:25 | 0:44:27 | |
to greater investment,
greater opportunity for housing | 0:44:27 | 0:44:33 | |
associations like MHS to meet local
need in that way, then that | 0:44:33 | 0:44:36 | |
has got to be an important
and worthwhile step to make. | 0:44:36 | 0:44:39 | |
Medway will grow,
like much of Kent and | 0:44:39 | 0:44:41 | |
Sussex, but on whose terms? | 0:44:41 | 0:44:42 | |
The Government
consultation closes this | 0:44:42 | 0:44:43 | |
week with the hope that the new
formula will be introduced | 0:44:43 | 0:44:46 | |
next year. | 0:44:46 | 0:44:48 | |
Henry Smith, as you've just heard,
this is causing extraordinary levels | 0:44:48 | 0:44:50 | |
of anger among people
in your own party. | 0:44:50 | 0:44:52 | |
Alan Jarrett, as we just
heard, is absolutely | 0:44:52 | 0:45:03 | |
livid, | 0:45:03 | 0:45:12 | |
but Andrew Bowles, who's the leader
of Swale Borough Council | 0:45:12 | 0:45:14 | |
says his reaction was horror, | 0:45:14 | 0:45:16 | |
disbelief and total
frustration at these plans. | 0:45:16 | 0:45:17 | |
Are they wrong to be angry? | 0:45:17 | 0:45:19 | |
Well, I don't think
I've ever known a time | 0:45:19 | 0:45:21 | |
when house-building hasn't been
controversial, both by those who say | 0:45:21 | 0:45:23 | |
we are not building enough houses
because we have got an increasing | 0:45:23 | 0:45:26 | |
population, people are living
longer, fewer people under the same | 0:45:26 | 0:45:29 | |
roof in many respects
and also then the pressure | 0:45:29 | 0:45:31 | |
on our environment,
the | 0:45:31 | 0:45:32 | |
green belt, in many parts
of the south-east and, | 0:45:32 | 0:45:34 | |
you know, not least
the pressure on infrastructure. | 0:45:34 | 0:45:36 | |
I think people have been very averse
to new developments because they | 0:45:36 | 0:45:39 | |
don't see the new road junction
or the railway station or the new | 0:45:39 | 0:45:42 | |
classrooms... | 0:45:42 | 0:45:43 | |
That is the complaint
of the three MPs in Medway. | 0:45:43 | 0:45:45 | |
And I think one of
the reasons why people | 0:45:45 | 0:45:48 | |
are so resistant historically
to planning is because the | 0:45:48 | 0:45:50 | |
infrastructure hasn't kept pace
with the new housing. | 0:45:50 | 0:45:52 | |
So, I welcome the Government
looking at this issue, | 0:45:52 | 0:45:54 | |
this consultation
that is about to close | 0:45:54 | 0:45:55 | |
and no doubt will go on,
but | 0:45:55 | 0:45:57 | |
we have to really reach that balance
of providing enough housing but at | 0:45:57 | 0:46:00 | |
the same time not ruining what makes
the south-east such a wonderful | 0:46:00 | 0:46:03 | |
place to live. | 0:46:03 | 0:46:04 | |
So, in response to my question,
are those council leaders | 0:46:04 | 0:46:07 | |
in Kent and those three MPs,
including a Government minister, | 0:46:07 | 0:46:09 | |
Tracey Crouch, are they wrong to be
angry and to make such a big fuss | 0:46:09 | 0:46:12 | |
about this? | 0:46:13 | 0:46:14 | |
No, not at all. | 0:46:14 | 0:46:15 | |
I think it is absolutely
right that our | 0:46:15 | 0:46:17 | |
elected representatives are
reflecting the voices of the people | 0:46:17 | 0:46:19 | |
who they are representing
in their local communities. | 0:46:19 | 0:46:21 | |
And so if there is
concern about policy, | 0:46:21 | 0:46:23 | |
it is absolutely right
that | 0:46:23 | 0:46:24 | |
that should be aired and discussed. | 0:46:24 | 0:46:27 | |
Now, your constituency,
ironically a new town itself | 0:46:27 | 0:46:34 | |
itself actually would,
under this formula, | 0:46:34 | 0:46:36 | |
see a reduction in the
housing targets. | 0:46:36 | 0:46:38 | |
But for others, this
is a very simplistic formula, | 0:46:38 | 0:46:40 | |
this is the argument,
being imposed across | 0:46:40 | 0:46:41 | |
the board from top down
to | 0:46:41 | 0:46:43 | |
local councils who are telling us
that they will not be able to | 0:46:43 | 0:46:46 | |
deliver them. | 0:46:46 | 0:46:47 | |
It doesn't sound like good
Government policy, does it? | 0:46:47 | 0:46:49 | |
Well, I think, you know, I can't
speak for the Government but what I | 0:46:49 | 0:46:53 | |
think they are trying to do is open
up the debate about the future of | 0:46:53 | 0:46:57 | |
house-building and I think
that is an important | 0:46:57 | 0:46:59 | |
and necessary debate to have. | 0:46:59 | 0:47:02 | |
But, at the same time, people
are expressing their views very | 0:47:02 | 0:47:06 | |
vigorously and I think, you know,
in a democracy, it's a good thing. | 0:47:06 | 0:47:09 | |
But this very principle,
before I move | 0:47:09 | 0:47:14 | |
on to Keith Taylor,
this very principle of a | 0:47:14 | 0:47:16 | |
simplistic formula, yes,
it might have simplify things, | 0:47:16 | 0:47:18 | |
but it is being imposed
on councils against their will. | 0:47:18 | 0:47:20 | |
Do you think, as an MP,
that is good planning policy? | 0:47:20 | 0:47:23 | |
I am not a central planner. | 0:47:23 | 0:47:24 | |
One of my political instincts
isn't for the state to be | 0:47:24 | 0:47:30 | |
telling people what to do if at all
possible, so it is against my | 0:47:30 | 0:47:33 | |
instincts to have
some central diktat. | 0:47:33 | 0:47:35 | |
But I think it is important
that the issue of house-building is | 0:47:35 | 0:47:38 | |
being discussed and I have no doubt
there will be a vigorous debate | 0:47:38 | 0:47:41 | |
going forward. | 0:47:41 | 0:47:42 | |
Keith Taylor, you represent
the whole region in the | 0:47:42 | 0:47:44 | |
European Parliament. | 0:47:45 | 0:47:46 | |
I do. | 0:47:46 | 0:47:47 | |
When you look at the area
as a whole and see | 0:47:47 | 0:47:49 | |
that some towns, as we have
just heard, will see | 0:47:49 | 0:47:52 | |
up to a 40% increase
in | 0:47:52 | 0:47:57 | |
housing targets, but others,
like Brighton and Hove | 0:47:57 | 0:47:59 | |
will see, I think, | 0:47:59 | 0:48:00 | |
nearly a 40% decrease
in the housing targets. | 0:48:00 | 0:48:02 | |
What do you make of that? | 0:48:02 | 0:48:05 | |
I think actually we need to start
looking at the housing stock that we | 0:48:05 | 0:48:08 | |
have got and the Tories,
if you don't mind me | 0:48:08 | 0:48:11 | |
saying, are just
as | 0:48:11 | 0:48:12 | |
confused now as they were years ago
when Maggie Thatcher introduced the | 0:48:12 | 0:48:15 | |
right to buy council houses. | 0:48:15 | 0:48:16 | |
And that is without an obligation to
replace that social housing stock. | 0:48:16 | 0:48:19 | |
What do you mean confused? | 0:48:19 | 0:48:20 | |
Well, I mean, what's
actually happened is | 0:48:20 | 0:48:28 | |
that we have seen a massive transfer
of property ownership from local | 0:48:28 | 0:48:32 | |
authorities to landlords. | 0:48:32 | 0:48:38 | |
But the numbers needed,
Keith, and this was a | 0:48:38 | 0:48:40 | |
huge issue in the recent election. | 0:48:40 | 0:48:42 | |
Yeah, OK, if you... | 0:48:42 | 0:48:44 | |
The numbers needed, we aren't
building enough and we're not | 0:48:44 | 0:48:46 | |
building them quickly enough. | 0:48:46 | 0:48:47 | |
No, and we're not
building the right sort. | 0:48:47 | 0:48:49 | |
And leasing land can
be tricky and it is | 0:48:49 | 0:48:51 | |
not going to release enough,
is it, enough derelict, | 0:48:51 | 0:48:53 | |
empty homes to fulfill the needs
of ourhousing population? | 0:48:53 | 0:48:56 | |
What we need is more social
housing and we need to stop | 0:48:56 | 0:48:58 | |
the sell-off of housing association
into the private market and that | 0:48:58 | 0:49:02 | |
both were Tory measures. | 0:49:02 | 0:49:06 | |
What we need to see
now is, as you say, | 0:49:06 | 0:49:10 | |
brownfield land being brought back
in, we need to see an end to this | 0:49:10 | 0:49:15 | |
ridiculous Tory national policy
planning framework which actually | 0:49:15 | 0:49:21 | |
says to councils, if this isn't
sustainable to have a social housing | 0:49:21 | 0:49:23 | |
quota in there, you don't
have to push it through. | 0:49:23 | 0:49:29 | |
I'd like to challenge
that very briefly on two | 0:49:29 | 0:49:31 | |
points. | 0:49:31 | 0:49:37 | |
First of all, once somebody
exercises the right to buy, that | 0:49:37 | 0:49:40 | |
house still exists,
it is still a dwelling, | 0:49:40 | 0:49:42 | |
it doesn't disappear
but also... | 0:49:42 | 0:49:45 | |
But it is not owned by the council. | 0:49:45 | 0:49:52 | |
But, but, but the Government
commitment is to at least | 0:49:52 | 0:49:54 | |
replace every household with a new
social housing stock in that same | 0:49:54 | 0:49:57 | |
area. | 0:49:57 | 0:49:58 | |
Now, just getting back to this issue
of the top down formula, not | 0:49:58 | 0:50:01 | |
that long ago I was sitting in
the studio with Government ministers | 0:50:01 | 0:50:04 | |
telling us about the marvels of
localism and how they were devolving | 0:50:04 | 0:50:07 | |
power to local government. | 0:50:07 | 0:50:08 | |
This seems to be,
as one council leader | 0:50:08 | 0:50:10 | |
put it, the final nail
in the coffin of localism. | 0:50:10 | 0:50:12 | |
It's very contradictory, isn't it? | 0:50:12 | 0:50:14 | |
Well, my background
in public life is as | 0:50:14 | 0:50:16 | |
council leader. | 0:50:16 | 0:50:17 | |
I was the leader of West Sussex
for many years and I | 0:50:17 | 0:50:19 | |
think, you know, devolution of power
is a very important thing. | 0:50:19 | 0:50:24 | |
I still believe in
devolution of power | 0:50:24 | 0:50:26 | |
and I would certainly resist any
central government diktat that took | 0:50:26 | 0:50:29 | |
that away. | 0:50:29 | 0:50:31 | |
OK, we move on. | 0:50:31 | 0:50:32 | |
Sorry, Keith, you will
have your chance in | 0:50:32 | 0:50:34 | |
a moment. | 0:50:34 | 0:50:35 | |
I could mention a total
contradiction again but I won't. | 0:50:35 | 0:50:38 | |
OK, I just did, we
are going to move on. | 0:50:38 | 0:50:40 | |
Now, if you're claiming benefits
and you live in Herne Bay, | 0:50:40 | 0:50:43 | |
Whitstable or Tunbridge Wells,
you may soon have to travel much | 0:50:43 | 0:50:45 | |
further to go to the Job Centre. | 0:50:46 | 0:50:47 | |
The Government has been looking
again at where they're located. | 0:50:47 | 0:50:50 | |
It says because more people
are claiming their benefits online, | 0:50:50 | 0:50:52 | |
some centres are under-used
and will close next March. | 0:50:52 | 0:50:55 | |
Rosie Duffield is the Labour MP
for Canterbury and says the plans | 0:50:55 | 0:50:58 | |
are already upsetting
many of her constituents. | 0:50:58 | 0:51:01 | |
It is a £7 return bus fare
from Whitstable to Canterbury | 0:51:01 | 0:51:11 | |
and lots of those people are kind
of elderly | 0:51:11 | 0:51:13 | |
or in a position where they can't
necessarily afford that fare. | 0:51:13 | 0:51:15 | |
Obviously they wouldn't be
going to the Job Centre | 0:51:15 | 0:51:17 | |
if they were comfortably off. | 0:51:18 | 0:51:19 | |
I think it is all of
those things, if you | 0:51:19 | 0:51:21 | |
an appointment or you
miss an interview, | 0:51:21 | 0:51:23 | |
you are stuck on a bus
or | 0:51:23 | 0:51:25 | |
the bus is late, then you are
terrified about getting sanctions | 0:51:25 | 0:51:27 | |
imposed. | 0:51:27 | 0:51:30 | |
Also the Universal Credit roll out,
people are really, really | 0:51:30 | 0:51:32 | |
worried about missing that bit
of advice, not knowing where to go. | 0:51:32 | 0:51:35 | |
It is all a horrible,
confusing time at | 0:51:35 | 0:51:37 | |
the moment, that added
stress and pressure | 0:51:37 | 0:51:40 | |
on someone already | 0:51:40 | 0:51:41 | |
receiving benefits is a bit cruel,
I think. | 0:51:41 | 0:51:43 | |
Well, joining us now
from Whitstable double | 0:51:43 | 0:51:45 | |
is Sue Bott, who is the deputy | 0:51:45 | 0:51:47 | |
of chief executive of
Disability Rights UK. | 0:51:47 | 0:51:48 | |
Thank you very much for joining us. | 0:51:48 | 0:51:52 | |
Maybe you could explain what these
closures may mean for people who | 0:51:52 | 0:51:55 | |
claim benefits in Whitstable. | 0:51:55 | 0:51:56 | |
Well, I think it
will mean that people | 0:51:56 | 0:51:58 | |
have to travel a lot further. | 0:51:58 | 0:51:59 | |
But let's remember that
that is not always easy | 0:51:59 | 0:52:05 | |
for people, there's
the | 0:52:05 | 0:52:06 | |
affordability problem,
but also for the disabled people, | 0:52:06 | 0:52:08 | |
there is the access problem. | 0:52:08 | 0:52:09 | |
I have to say that the buses
to and from Canterbury are | 0:52:09 | 0:52:16 | |
not the most accessible going
and could cause a lot of disabled | 0:52:16 | 0:52:19 | |
people especially, I think,
great difficulties. | 0:52:19 | 0:52:21 | |
But the Government is saying,
isn't it, that it will offer | 0:52:21 | 0:52:28 | |
tailored support for the most
vulnerable affected by these | 0:52:28 | 0:52:30 | |
closures? | 0:52:30 | 0:52:32 | |
It says group sessions,
work coaches and increased | 0:52:32 | 0:52:34 | |
flexibility, it does seem to be
responding to those concerns. | 0:52:34 | 0:52:37 | |
Yeah, but the trouble
is that to be able | 0:52:37 | 0:52:39 | |
to access those concerns, you have
got to go to your Job Centre, | 0:52:39 | 0:52:42 | |
haven't you? | 0:52:42 | 0:52:43 | |
So, I am not reassured by that
statement in any way | 0:52:43 | 0:52:48 | |
whatsoever and I think what we have
heard from our members at Disability | 0:52:48 | 0:52:53 | |
Rights UK time and time again
is that there are all these | 0:52:53 | 0:52:58 | |
pronouncements but actually when it
comes to it, there isn't the | 0:52:58 | 0:53:00 | |
protection there
for disabled people. | 0:53:00 | 0:53:01 | |
In fact, quite the reverse. | 0:53:02 | 0:53:03 | |
The Government seems to have it
in for disabled people. | 0:53:03 | 0:53:11 | |
So, what exactly do you think
the consequences will be for those | 0:53:11 | 0:53:14 | |
people who find it difficult
to travel that bit further to the | 0:53:14 | 0:53:17 | |
nearest Job Centre? | 0:53:17 | 0:53:18 | |
Well, I think the consequences
will be that people | 0:53:18 | 0:53:20 | |
will find it very difficult to claim
the benefits that they are entitled | 0:53:20 | 0:53:23 | |
to. | 0:53:23 | 0:53:27 | |
We have got the roll out of
Universal Credit in this area from | 0:53:27 | 0:53:30 | |
April next year. | 0:53:30 | 0:53:31 | |
You have to apply online. | 0:53:31 | 0:53:33 | |
Not everyone has access
to a computer or can | 0:53:33 | 0:53:38 | |
even use a computer,
that is particularly prevalent among | 0:53:38 | 0:53:40 | |
disabled people. | 0:53:40 | 0:53:41 | |
So how are they going to claim? | 0:53:41 | 0:53:45 | |
They need to go to their Job
Centre for support but | 0:53:45 | 0:53:48 | |
they are going to have to go
further for support. | 0:53:48 | 0:53:51 | |
I just fear that many people
are going to be left | 0:53:51 | 0:53:55 | |
absolutely stranded
and with nothing to support them. | 0:53:55 | 0:53:56 | |
Sue Bott, thank you very
much for joining us. | 0:53:56 | 0:53:59 | |
Henry Smith, do you
support these closures? | 0:53:59 | 0:54:04 | |
Well, I think it is actually
a reflection of the fact | 0:54:04 | 0:54:07 | |
that we have got record high
employment in this country now. | 0:54:07 | 0:54:09 | |
In my Crawley
constituency, where the | 0:54:09 | 0:54:12 | |
Job Centre happens to be
remaining open, it's 1.5%. | 0:54:12 | 0:54:17 | |
So I think this is a consequence
of both a growing | 0:54:17 | 0:54:20 | |
economy and more things being able
to be done remotely on the web. | 0:54:20 | 0:54:23 | |
And, of course, it's
important that we | 0:54:23 | 0:54:25 | |
are delivering employment
support and Job Centre | 0:54:25 | 0:54:28 | |
support to people
in | 0:54:28 | 0:54:30 | |
the most cost-effective way,
which is up-to-date with the way we | 0:54:30 | 0:54:33 | |
transact. | 0:54:33 | 0:54:35 | |
Yeah, and that is the
Government's argument for | 0:54:35 | 0:54:36 | |
justification for the closures. | 0:54:37 | 0:54:38 | |
But as you have just
heard, I mean, Sue Bott | 0:54:38 | 0:54:41 | |
thinks the Government has got it
in for disabled people. | 0:54:41 | 0:54:43 | |
Rosie Duffield described it as
a very cruel move because of those | 0:54:43 | 0:54:47 | |
small number of very vulnerable
people who will be adversely | 0:54:47 | 0:54:49 | |
affected, they say. | 0:54:49 | 0:54:50 | |
Well, one of the features
of the support for | 0:54:50 | 0:54:53 | |
unemployed people,
those sort of typically | 0:54:53 | 0:54:56 | |
hard to reach people
who | 0:54:56 | 0:54:59 | |
are maybe long-term unemployed
for all sorts of reasons, disability | 0:54:59 | 0:55:03 | |
being one of them, is targeted
support and support groups to make | 0:55:03 | 0:55:07 | |
sure that they are receiving
the kind of help that they need. | 0:55:07 | 0:55:11 | |
So I think the answer
is to really use | 0:55:11 | 0:55:16 | |
resource more efficiency to target
those most in need, whereas I think | 0:55:16 | 0:55:24 | |
for the vast majority of people,
give the example of Monarch Airlines | 0:55:24 | 0:55:27 | |
going out of business
recently, the Job Centre | 0:55:27 | 0:55:29 | |
remotely contacted all
of | 0:55:29 | 0:55:31 | |
those employees who were losing
their jobs with information on how | 0:55:31 | 0:55:34 | |
easyJet and Virgin Atlantic and
other airline employers wanted to | 0:55:34 | 0:55:39 | |
employ them without ever having
to visit the Job Centre | 0:55:39 | 0:55:42 | |
in the first place. | 0:55:42 | 0:55:43 | |
I think Job Centres are changing
as the economy grows. | 0:55:43 | 0:55:45 | |
And you are confident
they can target | 0:55:45 | 0:55:47 | |
those people who might be worst hit? | 0:55:47 | 0:55:49 | |
I don't think we should ever be
complacent and we need to ensure | 0:55:49 | 0:55:52 | |
that resources are focused on those
most vulnerable and most in need. | 0:55:52 | 0:55:55 | |
OK, Keith Taylor, if the Government
is right and 99% of people claiming | 0:55:55 | 0:55:58 | |
Universal Credit are doing it
online, it does make sense, doesn't | 0:55:58 | 0:56:02 | |
it, to reduce your use
of expensive buildings? | 0:56:02 | 0:56:03 | |
Well, in one way, yes. | 0:56:03 | 0:56:07 | |
But if that expensive building
is there for the elderly person or | 0:56:07 | 0:56:11 | |
the disabled person who is not
near a working Job Centre, | 0:56:11 | 0:56:16 | |
then it is absolutely... | 0:56:16 | 0:56:22 | |
I think you are saying
you were going to help them but are | 0:56:22 | 0:56:25 | |
you going to play the bus fare? | 0:56:26 | 0:56:27 | |
Well, the Government is offering
to help with travel costs. | 0:56:27 | 0:56:30 | |
That's good. | 0:56:30 | 0:56:31 | |
But... | 0:56:31 | 0:56:32 | |
There has also been
a lot of concern, | 0:56:32 | 0:56:34 | |
as Henry pointed out,
about | 0:56:34 | 0:56:35 | |
the unemployment rate. | 0:56:35 | 0:56:36 | |
If the rate is relatively
low at the moment, | 0:56:36 | 0:56:38 | |
then again, it's maybe
a good time to save money, | 0:56:38 | 0:56:40 | |
much-needed money by doing this. | 0:56:40 | 0:56:42 | |
It's always a good time
to save money, Natalie. | 0:56:42 | 0:56:44 | |
But actually what you need
to do is make sure | 0:56:44 | 0:56:46 | |
that you are spending
the money wisely | 0:56:46 | 0:56:48 | |
enough, reaching out
to the | 0:56:48 | 0:56:49 | |
most vulnerable and most
disadvantaged members of society. | 0:56:49 | 0:56:52 | |
Ever since we've had
the austerity programme, | 0:56:52 | 0:57:00 | |
we have seen employment shrink more
and more in terms of | 0:57:00 | 0:57:03 | |
good jobs that are long-term jobs. | 0:57:03 | 0:57:06 | |
Where actually now we have got
2 million UK jobs on zero hour | 0:57:06 | 0:57:09 | |
contracts. | 0:57:10 | 0:57:14 | |
These people are up against,
you know, they're up | 0:57:14 | 0:57:17 | |
against the sharp end. | 0:57:17 | 0:57:18 | |
It's come back to
the people who are on | 0:57:18 | 0:57:20 | |
benefits. | 0:57:20 | 0:57:21 | |
I mean, Universal Credit
is being rolled out over the next | 0:57:21 | 0:57:24 | |
few months, Henry, as you know, this
is hugely controversial, even within | 0:57:24 | 0:57:27 | |
your own party. | 0:57:27 | 0:57:28 | |
Is this the right time
to close Job Centres when | 0:57:28 | 0:57:30 | |
people are so much in the dark
about what it means for them? | 0:57:30 | 0:57:33 | |
Well, Universal Credit
is about rolling | 0:57:33 | 0:57:36 | |
into one benefit many different
benefits so that it is much more | 0:57:36 | 0:57:39 | |
understandable. | 0:57:39 | 0:57:45 | |
Also it means that it tapers,
so as people get back into | 0:57:45 | 0:57:51 | |
work, they don't have this cliff
edge of suddenly benefits ending. | 0:57:51 | 0:57:54 | |
But it is the Job Centres
where people have to go to have that | 0:57:54 | 0:57:57 | |
explain to them face-to-face and if
those Job Centres are closing at | 0:57:57 | 0:58:00 | |
this critical time in
the benefits system, | 0:58:00 | 0:58:02 | |
surely a delay would be
a | 0:58:02 | 0:58:03 | |
good idea, wouldn't it? | 0:58:03 | 0:58:04 | |
Well, as we were discussing
earlier on, around | 0:58:04 | 0:58:06 | |
about 99% of people do deal online
with Job Centres and for those who | 0:58:06 | 0:58:10 | |
are most vulnerable,
there is support, again, as we were | 0:58:10 | 0:58:12 | |
discussing in terms of support
for their transport | 0:58:12 | 0:58:14 | |
to get to the Job Centre, if they
need to go | 0:58:14 | 0:58:17 | |
to a physical location. | 0:58:17 | 0:58:18 | |
What about the wider narrative? | 0:58:18 | 0:58:21 | |
I mean, this feeds into
an increasing feeling among | 0:58:21 | 0:58:25 | |
many people that all the things
Theresa May said when she took | 0:58:25 | 0:58:28 | |
office a year ago about helping
the most vulnerable in society, | 0:58:28 | 0:58:31 | |
it just isn't materialising
and as we have | 0:58:31 | 0:58:32 | |
just said, having it
in for disabled people. | 0:58:32 | 0:58:34 | |
Rosie... | 0:58:34 | 0:58:35 | |
Louise Casey, who has been
a Government adviser for 20 | 0:58:35 | 0:58:38 | |
years under Labour and
the Conservatives, said the current | 0:58:38 | 0:58:40 | |
benefits system is punitive. | 0:58:40 | 0:58:41 | |
This is feeding into
a sense that you don't | 0:58:41 | 0:58:43 | |
care, your government doesn't care. | 0:58:43 | 0:58:44 | |
Well, I think the best way to care
about people is to ensure that there | 0:58:44 | 0:58:48 | |
is employment for the largest number
of people and we have the highest | 0:58:48 | 0:58:51 | |
employment level since recorded
history in this country now. | 0:58:51 | 0:58:55 | |
The way to get people
out of poverty, the | 0:58:55 | 0:58:59 | |
way to get people out of dependency
is to grow the economy and create | 0:58:59 | 0:59:02 | |
jobs and that way... | 0:59:02 | 0:59:03 | |
We are talking about
the people that have the | 0:59:03 | 0:59:12 | |
-- are the hardest to find work for,
for obvious reasons, | 0:59:12 | 0:59:16 | |
the most vulnerable. | 0:59:16 | 0:59:17 | |
And now way you can then focus more
resource on precisely | 0:59:17 | 0:59:20 | |
those people who are most honourable
and need that extra help. | 0:59:20 | 0:59:22 | |
So, is that why the
government doesn't fund | 0:59:22 | 0:59:24 | |
any food banks? | 0:59:24 | 0:59:25 | |
I don't see the consistency
in your argument. | 0:59:25 | 0:59:27 | |
The conclusion that I and many other
have reached is that the | 0:59:27 | 0:59:30 | |
Conservatives don't really care very
much about the poor and vulnerable. | 0:59:30 | 0:59:33 | |
OK, we are going to move on. | 0:59:33 | 0:59:35 | |
Because it's time for some
of the other news you may have | 0:59:35 | 0:59:38 | |
missed this week in 60 Seconds
with Laurence Sleator. | 0:59:38 | 0:59:45 | |
Families of the 11 men killed
in the Shoreham Air disaster have | 0:59:45 | 0:59:49 | |
been refused legal aid ahead
of an inquest into the crash. | 0:59:49 | 0:59:53 | |
Theresa May pledged
to investigate after local MP Tim | 0:59:53 | 0:59:56 | |
Lawton raised the issue
at Prime Minister's Questions. | 0:59:56 | 0:59:58 | |
Two years after the accident,
he says families | 0:59:58 | 1:00:00 | |
are no closer to justice. | 1:00:00 | 1:00:06 | |
It just seems extraordinary
to me that it is | 1:00:06 | 1:00:08 | |
taking so long and yet full justice
may be denied to those families | 1:00:08 | 1:00:11 | |
simply because the funding is not
available for legal representation, | 1:00:11 | 1:00:15 | |
so I think the Prime Minister needs
to look at this a bit | 1:00:15 | 1:00:23 | |
more closely and treat it
as the | 1:00:23 | 1:00:25 | |
exceptionally tragic case it was. | 1:00:25 | 1:00:26 | |
Hastings Pier has won a prestigious
architecture award seven years after | 1:00:26 | 1:00:29 | |
it was devastated by fire. | 1:00:29 | 1:00:30 | |
Part crowd funded by
locals, the people's | 1:00:30 | 1:00:32 | |
pier beat five other buildings
to win the Riba Stirling Prize and | 1:00:32 | 1:00:35 | |
be crowned the UK's
best new building. | 1:00:35 | 1:00:36 | |
And Brighton schoolchildren
descended on Parliament this week | 1:00:36 | 1:00:38 | |
with their local MPs as part
of Save Our Schools campaign. | 1:00:38 | 1:00:42 | |
They are calling for
more investment in | 1:00:42 | 1:00:44 | |
education in next month's budget. | 1:00:44 | 1:00:51 | |
Keith Taylor, the Government has
announced more funding for schools | 1:00:51 | 1:00:54 | |
in the last couple of months and yet
the schools don't seem to be happy | 1:00:54 | 1:00:57 | |
with that. | 1:00:57 | 1:00:58 | |
The sums don't add up. | 1:00:58 | 1:01:01 | |
There's already a £1.7 billion
shortage in their school funding and | 1:01:01 | 1:01:11 | |
as it goes on, we are actually
going to see a real time | 1:01:13 | 1:01:16 | |
reduction in school funding,
I think it's about | 1:01:16 | 1:01:18 | |
4.5% by 2019 or 2018. | 1:01:18 | 1:01:21 | |
So, do you think the Chancellor
should be listening, | 1:01:21 | 1:01:25 | |
should be increasing the budget
again because some schools say they | 1:01:25 | 1:01:28 | |
need an extra 2 billion
from the Government just | 1:01:28 | 1:01:30 | |
just to stand still? | 1:01:30 | 1:01:32 | |
Henry, as you know from schools
in your constituency. | 1:01:32 | 1:01:40 | |
Well, the budget is
going up for schools. | 1:01:40 | 1:01:42 | |
In West Sussex, the figure
is 10.7% increase | 1:01:42 | 1:01:44 | |
in school funding, which is
a significant number and there a | 1:01:44 | 1:01:47 | |
guarantee of a minimum
per pupil spent £4800 each. | 1:01:47 | 1:01:49 | |
As you know, Brighton
and Hove, it amounts to 3%. | 1:01:49 | 1:01:54 | |
They say that will actually be
outweighed by inflation, it amounts | 1:01:54 | 1:01:57 | |
to a 0% increase. | 1:01:57 | 1:01:58 | |
You can understand why people
in Brighton and Hove | 1:01:58 | 1:02:00 | |
aren't happy even if your
constituents are happy with the | 1:02:00 | 1:02:02 | |
new... | 1:02:02 | 1:02:03 | |
Well, I think what this new formula
does is it writes a wrong | 1:02:03 | 1:02:07 | |
that is over a decade,
the block grant system | 1:02:07 | 1:02:09 | |
which massively funded urban schools
over many years to the | 1:02:09 | 1:02:11 | |
detriment of schools
in places like West | 1:02:11 | 1:02:13 | |
Sussex, which is one
of the | 1:02:13 | 1:02:14 | |
lowest funded counties
in the country and it is important. | 1:02:14 | 1:02:17 | |
All schools are seeing
an increase across the country. | 1:02:17 | 1:02:20 | |
Not every MP is as happy
with this situation as you. | 1:02:20 | 1:02:23 | |
I mean, other MPs in East Sussex,
Maria Caulfield for example, she is | 1:02:23 | 1:02:26 | |
not happy so it sounds
like you are saying, | 1:02:26 | 1:02:28 | |
we are all right in West Sussex,
but others aren't. | 1:02:28 | 1:02:30 | |
No, I would like to
see more funding for | 1:02:30 | 1:02:33 | |
schools, don't get me wrong. | 1:02:33 | 1:02:34 | |
But I think the Government
does deserve | 1:02:34 | 1:02:35 | |
some credit for increasing funding,
as I say, in West Sussex where my | 1:02:35 | 1:02:39 | |
constituency is, where I know this
situation best by 10.7% which | 1:02:39 | 1:02:46 | |
is pretty good, given
the financial environment. | 1:02:46 | 1:02:47 | |
OK, I'm afraid that is all we have
got time for this week. | 1:02:47 | 1:02:50 | |
Sorry, Keith. | 1:02:50 | 1:02:51 | |
My thanks to our guests for today,
Keith Taylor, the Green MEP, | 1:02:51 | 1:02:54 | |
and Henry Smith, the Conservative
MP for Crawley. | 1:02:54 | 1:02:56 | |
We're off air next week
because the MPs have got a week | 1:02:56 | 1:02:59 | |
away from Westminster, | 1:02:59 | 1:03:00 | |
but Julia will be
here the week after, | 1:03:00 | 1:03:02 | |
I hope you can join her then. | 1:03:02 | 1:03:04 | |
Bye-bye. | 1:03:04 | 1:03:05 | |
to support. | 1:03:06 | 1:03:07 | |
All right, and at that point
we have to end it there. | 1:03:07 | 1:03:10 | |
My thanks to Rosena and Andrew,
and with that it's back to Sarah. | 1:03:10 | 1:03:12 | |
It's been a tricky
week for Theresa May - | 1:03:12 | 1:03:15 | |
again, you might think. | 1:03:15 | 1:03:16 | |
She's lost a Cabinet minister
and been forced into a reshuffle | 1:03:16 | 1:03:18 | |
which did little for party unity,
to say nothing of losing a Commons | 1:03:18 | 1:03:21 | |
vote on Brexit and yet more reports
of fireworks in Cabinet meetings - | 1:03:21 | 1:03:25 | |
this time apparently over housing. | 1:03:25 | 1:03:26 | |
So, is the Prime Minister's time
in office going with a bang | 1:03:26 | 1:03:29 | |
or more of a whimper? | 1:03:29 | 1:03:30 | |
Well, we sent Ellie Price | 1:03:30 | 1:03:31 | |
and the entirely unscientific
Sunday Politics moodbox | 1:03:31 | 1:03:33 | |
to Conservative-held Surrey,
to find out. | 1:03:33 | 1:03:35 | |
ALL: Three, two, one. | 1:03:35 | 1:03:38 | |
# Ignite the light
and let it shine...# | 1:03:38 | 1:03:44 | |
It's a tale of lit fuses, plots,
conspiracy, treachery, | 1:03:45 | 1:03:48 | |
but enough of the recent goings
on in the Conservative Party, | 1:03:48 | 1:03:52 | |
it's firework night here
in Guildford and we're asking, | 1:03:52 | 1:03:56 | |
does Theresa May have control
of her Government and her party? | 1:03:56 | 1:03:58 | |
Yes or no? | 1:03:58 | 1:03:59 | |
# Baby you're a firework...# | 1:03:59 | 1:04:05 | |
With all the scandals in Government
at the moment | 1:04:05 | 1:04:07 | |
and Brexit seems to be dragging on
a little bit longer than we thought. | 1:04:07 | 1:04:11 | |
So, at the moment, I don't think
she is in control. | 1:04:11 | 1:04:14 | |
She's too many people sniping
at her back, really. | 1:04:17 | 1:04:20 | |
Do you think Theresa
May's in control? | 1:04:20 | 1:04:21 | |
I think she's in control. | 1:04:21 | 1:04:23 | |
She's in a good job
having a tough time. | 1:04:23 | 1:04:25 | |
No, I don't. | 1:04:25 | 1:04:26 | |
I think she's a mess. | 1:04:26 | 1:04:28 | |
Even when you read her body language
when she's being interviewed | 1:04:28 | 1:04:30 | |
by people, she doesn't
seem like she's in control. | 1:04:30 | 1:04:33 | |
I think she has poor advisers. | 1:04:33 | 1:04:37 | |
I'm going to put it in the "yes". | 1:04:39 | 1:04:43 | |
I do think she's struggling but,
I still hope, still think she has | 1:04:43 | 1:04:46 | |
a bit of a grip on them. | 1:04:46 | 1:04:49 | |
The Queen is England's role. | 1:04:49 | 1:04:52 | |
It's her birth right. | 1:04:52 | 1:04:54 | |
She is England's role
of this country. | 1:04:54 | 1:04:57 | |
I'm going to vote for Theresa May. | 1:04:57 | 1:05:00 | |
I don't think there's anyone
who could do a better job. | 1:05:00 | 1:05:03 | |
I think she's had a bit of
a poisoned chalice with Brexit but | 1:05:03 | 1:05:06 | |
I think she could have done better. | 1:05:06 | 1:05:08 | |
The money's not going
to where it needs to go. | 1:05:08 | 1:05:11 | |
I think she should resign, really. | 1:05:11 | 1:05:12 | |
I feel a bit sorry
for her, actually. | 1:05:12 | 1:05:15 | |
I think she's been witch-hunted
a little bit. | 1:05:15 | 1:05:17 | |
She's doing her best. | 1:05:17 | 1:05:20 | |
With everything that's
going on with the Cabinet at the | 1:05:20 | 1:05:22 | |
moment, I think the Conservative
Party is in a real mess, actually. | 1:05:22 | 1:05:26 | |
Very disappointed. | 1:05:26 | 1:05:28 | |
Well, you get bickering in all parts
not just the Conservative Party. | 1:05:28 | 1:05:34 | |
And that's just sort
of par for the course. | 1:05:34 | 1:05:36 | |
But I'm sure she'll
hold everybody together | 1:05:36 | 1:05:39 | |
despite the current difficulties. | 1:05:39 | 1:05:41 | |
The Tories weren't in control
when they had the referendum | 1:05:41 | 1:05:43 | |
in the first place for the euro. | 1:05:43 | 1:05:46 | |
We've had two years
of complete chaos. | 1:05:46 | 1:05:48 | |
I don't see an end to it. | 1:05:48 | 1:05:52 | |
Well, I seem to have
acquired a few new friends. | 1:05:52 | 1:05:54 | |
The oohs and ahs are
over and so the moodbox | 1:05:54 | 1:05:57 | |
and the result is... | 1:05:57 | 1:06:01 | |
No. | 1:06:01 | 1:06:02 | |
The majority of people
here in Guildford | 1:06:02 | 1:06:04 | |
don't think Theresa May
is in control. | 1:06:04 | 1:06:06 | |
CHEERING | 1:06:07 | 1:06:11 | |
That was Ellie with the entirely
unscientific moodbox, and thanks | 1:06:11 | 1:06:13 | |
to Bushy Hill Junior School
in Guildford for having her along. | 1:06:13 | 1:06:20 | |
Let's put the Sorbol question to our
panel. Equally unscientific but all | 1:06:20 | 1:06:25 | |
seasoned Westminster watchers. Is
Theresa May in control of her | 1:06:25 | 1:06:27 | |
Government at the moment or is all
of this sex harassment allegations | 1:06:27 | 1:06:33 | |
swimming around loosening her grip?
Depends what you mean by in control. | 1:06:33 | 1:06:37 | |
All Prime Ministers have a degree of
control. They retain the power much | 1:06:37 | 1:06:44 | |
tat wrongage as we saw with her
reshuffle. Didn't go down well with | 1:06:44 | 1:06:48 | |
her MPs but she did it. You can't be
fully in control of these situations | 1:06:48 | 1:06:54 | |
in effectively what is a hung
Parliament. If she won a land sheep | 1:06:54 | 1:06:56 | |
in the election she would have the
authority to do what she wanted. She | 1:06:56 | 1:07:00 | |
could float over something like
this. Stories like this, you could | 1:07:00 | 1:07:04 | |
say she's perfectly suited for it,
the vicar's daughter, the church | 1:07:04 | 1:07:08 | |
goer, to sort it out. It is much
more complicated than that. I don't | 1:07:08 | 1:07:12 | |
think she will be able to get a full
grip of it. There are some practical | 1:07:12 | 1:07:16 | |
things that need to happen that will
happen. I remember with back to | 1:07:16 | 1:07:20 | |
basics and John Major, that equally
vague scandal, what was back to | 1:07:20 | 1:07:25 | |
basics about? It was still running
months afterwards, stories about a | 1:07:25 | 1:07:30 | |
minister having an affair. This is
different. I can see it will be | 1:07:30 | 1:07:34 | |
impossible for her to fully get to
grips with it. Does it provide an | 1:07:34 | 1:07:38 | |
opportunity for Theresa May to be
seen to be taking really serious | 1:07:38 | 1:07:41 | |
action, trying to root out a bad
culture in Westminster and therefore | 1:07:41 | 1:07:45 | |
get some political credit for it?
That opportunity was available to | 1:07:45 | 1:07:49 | |
her all of last week and she hasn't
taken it. What's remarkable for me | 1:07:49 | 1:07:55 | |
is the near complete breakdown in
discipline in the higher ranks the | 1:07:55 | 1:07:58 | |
Tory Party. It is extraordinary you
have Cabinet level ministers who are | 1:07:58 | 1:08:03 | |
not supporting their colleagues.
Ministers and former ministers | 1:08:03 | 1:08:07 | |
giving interviews in which they slag
off their former colleagues. It is | 1:08:07 | 1:08:10 | |
an absolute unholy mess. There is no
sense that she is gripping this. Or | 1:08:10 | 1:08:15 | |
has any particular solution. I think
we can have a lot of sympathy for | 1:08:15 | 1:08:19 | |
her in terms of finding a solution.
How on earth do you grip a problem | 1:08:19 | 1:08:23 | |
like this where you're talking about
apparently an indefinite period of | 1:08:23 | 1:08:31 | |
retrospective examination of
potential faults. 15 years is no | 1:08:31 | 1:08:34 | |
longer too historic for somebody to
dredge up some small thing that may | 1:08:34 | 1:08:38 | |
or may not have happened to them. It
is very difficult for her. But she's | 1:08:38 | 1:08:42 | |
being battered around by events.
Where does this story go next? I | 1:08:42 | 1:08:49 | |
think the whip's office on every
party, Tories, Labour, Liberal | 1:08:49 | 1:08:53 | |
Democrats, SNP all have their own
whipping operations. That seems to | 1:08:53 | 1:08:56 | |
be the place of it really. This is
because, where do we draw the line? | 1:08:56 | 1:09:01 | |
Going forward what mechanisms are
put in place to top this helping | 1:09:01 | 1:09:05 | |
again. To take allegations
seriously, report them and | 1:09:05 | 1:09:09 | |
investigate them independently. Or
is there a bigger job to go back | 1:09:09 | 1:09:14 | |
into the past retrospective, who
knew what when as Nia said about | 1:09:14 | 1:09:19 | |
Kelvin Hopkins. This is a Shadow
Defence Secretary saying what did | 1:09:19 | 1:09:23 | |
the Labour Party leader know about
Kelvin Hopkins' allegations when he | 1:09:23 | 1:09:28 | |
promoted him? Theresa May is unable
to do the retrospective bit. She's | 1:09:28 | 1:09:33 | |
simply too weak. I asked this of
Number Ten last week. Why are you | 1:09:33 | 1:09:38 | |
not more front-foot the on this.
They said they would be if they | 1:09:38 | 1:09:41 | |
possibly could be. She's running a
minority Government. She cannot be | 1:09:41 | 1:09:45 | |
seen to be going after a witch-hunt
on her own people. So, I think this | 1:09:45 | 1:09:50 | |
goes on. Enof thebly what the whips
new -- inevitably what the whips | 1:09:50 | 1:09:59 | |
knew will be parment. Amber Rudd did
the same thing on Andrew Marr. They | 1:09:59 | 1:10:07 | |
are being precise about the fact
they didn't know anything. Sarah | 1:10:07 | 1:10:13 | |
Newton said she heard no allegations
about her flock, the the MPs she was | 1:10:13 | 1:10:17 | |
in charge of rather than rumours
about any other Tories. Amber Rudd | 1:10:17 | 1:10:24 | |
say, I do not recognise the more
lurid allegations. What about the | 1:10:24 | 1:10:29 | |
less lurid once? So, this smells
very, very bad indeed. Jeremy | 1:10:29 | 1:10:33 | |
Corbyn's going to have to answer
some of these questions as well? | 1:10:33 | 1:10:39 | |
Yeah, but the whip's thing is a red
herring. Their remit is to get the | 1:10:39 | 1:10:44 | |
vote out for the Government
fundamentally. Everybody knows that. | 1:10:44 | 1:10:46 | |
They are not there, it is one of the
problems. They are not there to be | 1:10:46 | 1:10:50 | |
moral guides to these MPs. They are
there to win votes for the | 1:10:50 | 1:10:54 | |
Government or the opposition if that
becomes possible. And deal brutally | 1:10:54 | 1:10:59 | |
with MPs to make sure they get out
and vote. Of course they knew | 1:10:59 | 1:11:02 | |
virtually everything. But whether
they were obliged to act as moral | 1:11:02 | 1:11:07 | |
guard yawns in these situations, I
don't think they were. It was not | 1:11:07 | 1:11:11 | |
part of their job. Maybe you need
moral guardians in there but not the | 1:11:11 | 1:11:15 | |
whips. Normally, less than
three-weeks out from a budget that's | 1:11:15 | 1:11:20 | |
what we'd been talking about.
Dominating our conversation. Given | 1:11:20 | 1:11:23 | |
that's set for November 22nd, is
that an opportunity for the | 1:11:23 | 1:11:26 | |
Government to seize back control of
the story? Philip Hammond may be | 1:11:26 | 1:11:31 | |
glad we're not spending too much
time talking about the budget. It | 1:11:31 | 1:11:35 | |
should be an opportunity for the
Government to seize the agenda, draw | 1:11:35 | 1:11:39 | |
a line under all of this. I think
one of the very difficult as pects | 1:11:39 | 1:11:43 | |
of this so-called scandal for the
Government to manage is knowing | 1:11:43 | 1:11:47 | |
quite how long it will run. In the
normal scheme of things they lose | 1:11:47 | 1:11:51 | |
steam after a couple of weeks. But
there are so many potential gayses | 1:11:51 | 1:11:55 | |
that could come out, it might run
longer than that. Rather like the | 1:11:55 | 1:12:00 | |
expenses scandal. But there is an
opportunity at the budget to reset | 1:12:00 | 1:12:03 | |
the' again da. I just don't think
Philip Hammond will take it. I think | 1:12:03 | 1:12:08 | |
he's a very caution Chancellor. At
the moment, there is a feeling | 1:12:08 | 1:12:11 | |
Theresa May's leadership is so weak
it will be too dangerous for them to | 1:12:11 | 1:12:17 | |
do anything particularly dram attic
why. I expect a steady as you go | 1:12:17 | 1:12:22 | |
budget where they will be hoping not
to make any mistakes. You say there | 1:12:22 | 1:12:26 | |
is disagreement in the Cabinet about
what should be in the budget? | 1:12:26 | 1:12:32 | |
Disagreement between the Chancellor
and the Prime Minister. The | 1:12:32 | 1:12:38 | |
witch-hunt is hiding a huge story
which is the incredible dysfunction | 1:12:38 | 1:12:42 | |
between Number Ten and number 11.
Philip Hammond and Theresa May can't | 1:12:42 | 1:12:45 | |
bear to be in the same room with
each other let alone agreeing what's | 1:12:45 | 1:12:50 | |
in the budget. It is coming down to
housing. Everybody agrees it has to | 1:12:50 | 1:12:54 | |
be the centrepiece of the budget.
They have to get more houses built. | 1:12:54 | 1:13:00 | |
Philip Hammond wands that bee
deregulation. Theresa May wants to | 1:13:00 | 1:13:05 | |
are borrow up to 50 billion
merchandise more for the Government | 1:13:05 | 1:13:08 | |
to build for themselves. | 1:13:08 | 1:13:09 | |
That's all for today. | 1:13:09 | 1:13:11 | |
There's no Sunday Politics
next weekend | 1:13:11 | 1:13:13 | |
while Parliament is in recess, | 1:13:13 | 1:13:14 | |
but I'll be back here at 11am
on BBC One in two weeks' time. | 1:13:14 | 1:13:18 | |
Until then, bye bye. | 1:13:18 | 1:13:22 |