04/03/2012 Sunday Politics South West

In the South West. The law says this Cornwall Hotel should welcome

homosexual couples. The report from upper lip grip of Christian MP says

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1777 seconds

Has no, I am Lucie Fisher, coming up on the Sunday Politics in the

South West. The Christian MP fighting back

against recent decisions, which she says have been unfair to people of

faith. Lots of these decisions are been made by police officers or

judges or employers, who have no understanding whatsoever of people

of faith and the faith motivator. I will be joined by Anne Marie

Morris, the Conservative MP for Newton Abbott and Ben Bradshaw, the

Labour MP for Exeter. This week, a report is out

suggesting that Christians are been marginalised. Then, you are a

Christian and you are on the ecclesiastical committee in

Parliament. How do you feel? I feel I can practise my fate. You saw the

Queen making a faith extolling the virtues of the Church. I think

there are some Christians, perhaps the more conservative Christians,

who have problems with some of modern Britain, in particularly

with hour a quality legislation. I hope they will get over it. Anne

Marie, what is your view? I share then stew on this. I do not feel

marginalised. This report is looking at how Christians feel

internally. It is an opportunity for Christians to look externally

about what they can do in society and how they can be relevant to the

community. That is more worthwhile than too much introspection. Much

more on that later. The Coalition's plan to find jobs

for the unemployed, suffered another blow this week from one of

its own ministers. A leaked letter from defence minister Nick Harvey,

revealed his concern that an agency which delivers the Work Programme

in his constituency was about to go bankrupt. Getting their hands dirty.

The young apprentices at this recycling centre work for the

charity groundwork. The charity is one of many helping to deliver the

government's Work Programme, which targets the long-term unemployed.

Some charities are claiming that the scheme is not delivering for

them. The financial problems facing this charity was the subject of a

letter from Nick Harvey to implement Mr Chris Grayling. There

is a real worry that the companies are cherry-picking. They are

holding back the people they think they can place quite easily and

giving the people who are a long way from the labour market to local

charities to sort out. Local people taking part in the programme are

referred on to two large service providers. Depending on their

location or needs, some are referred on to sub-contractors and

these are often charities and voluntary organisations.

Contractors are only paid once a person has been placed in a

programme for six months. It is designed as an incentive for

providers to get people into work. It is difficult for charities, so

we have to be businesslike and smart about how we deliver this. We

work very hard beforehand to work out what our cash flow would be for

a year before we start to get paid. It has cost us a lot of money to do

it, but we hope the returns will help us to reinvest more money into

our charitable objectives. Adam Smith was on a work programme and

now has an apprenticeship. The training he has received were

hoping -- will help them to secure work. I am �100 more confident that

I was before I did this. I was not confident before. I do not know

where I would be without this opportunity. The Employment

Minister was in Truro this week and seemed to shrug off the criticisms

levelled at him. The voluntary sector is doing fine across the

South West. I have visited charities like Groundwork South

West which is doing great work. I have talked to a volunteer centre

about their work programme and I am comfortable with the role that the

voluntary sector is plain. Critics argue that some organisations are

under resource to shoulder the cause -- the cost of training. The

success of this government scheme could not be more important. He

this is the flagship government policy and here we have a

government minister saying it is in trouble. Should we be worried?

have Chris Grayling scene it is not in serious trouble. What makes me

sad is we are detracting from the important issue and the Work

Programme is a great way of getting people into employment. If it

works? Some ministers are saying it is not working. The that is a fair

point. If you clip showed there was no payment until six months in.

There is a payment up front and another payment at six months and

then over the next two years, their payments depending on the nature of

the programme. If there are sub- contractors are who are not

properly been respected by the main contractor, there are issues that

need to be addressed. Chris Grayling said he would not address

this. He does not think this needs to be looked into. The charities

are saying it does need to be looked into. He is saying that the

mechanisms are there, it is insuring that their work properly.

It has not been clear that this is a flexible programme and that is

one of the distinctions between this and the previous government

programme. We do need to insure that sub-contractors are properly

supported, but that can be done within the present system. Let us

bring them in here. Would you agree? And not at all. The work

programme is in real trouble. It is not just people like Nick Harvey

who is putting criticisms in a letter. If you have a problem with

government policy, usually talk to someone. We have some of the major

employers threatening to withdraw from the programme in the last few

weeks and the government having to rethink it. You have the scandal at

the employment... Or all sorts of problems. I hope that Chris

Grayling doors listen to some of these valid criticisms to improve

the scheme. What about your own constituents, have you heard

complaint? The charity that featured in a car the's letter also

operates in my constituency and it was my office that received this

letter in a brown on the look. Whether that was deliberate,

because of the impact on my constituents... There is a problem

in the west Country which Nick Harvey's letter highlights, like

low wage economies, these charities and enterprises have a great record

at getting people into work and they are threatened with going to

the wall. Have you heard any complaints? Every one is happy. Ben

is confusing the issue. I have had no complaints.

Should people who run businesses be allowed to use their religious

beliefs as grounds for rejecting customers who are gay? That is one

of the questions considered by a report from a group of Christian

MPs in Parliament. It says the judgment, which and against the

hotel owners in Marazion was unfair. It recommends that the quality lot

has changed and calls for more education about the role of

Christianity in Britain's political life. Critics say the report is

confused and can look to the erosion of basic human rights. This

hotel is at the centre of a row over religious freedom. The

Christian couple who run it refused a gay couple a double room. The

courts have twice ruled this was the discrimination. But Peter Bull

and Hazelmary Bull believe sex outside marriage is a sin and argue

their rule applies to any a married couple. What happened today was a

collision of two lifestyles. I would have thought in this country,

our democratic society he is big enough to be able to encompass two

different lifestyles. I do not want to see a return to the days of

persecution and oppression that certain groups in our society

suffer, but I would like to make sure that we are not going to

exchange it one lot of oppression for another. Judges told the couple

that religious belief does not offer exemption from equality laws

that businesses have to follow. This has angered some Christians.

Then MP lead report is claiming that what happened to the couple

who owned the hotel was unfair. There are calls for changes to the

law. The inquiry was set up after an number of high profile at

religious freedom cases. Across party group heard from dozens of

mostly Christian groups on the case South West Devon MP he chairs

Christians and Parliament. He says that the owners should have won

their case and thinks the law needs tweaking. There is a problem with

the a quality act. It was introduced in 2010 in a hurry. It

lists a number of protected groups, but does not say what happens when

those groups are clashing with each other. What happened in the last

few years is almost as if people of, sexual orientation have been given

a trump card which trumps everything else and that was never

the intention of the Act. Critics are accusing the MP of trying to

turn back the advance of a quality. He seems to want to try this back

to a place we were before. We have made a lot of progress and got rid

of a lot of horrible things. The findings of this report would be

putting us back in that direction. Another case in the report is the

High Court ruling on formal prayers at Bedford Town Council in Devon.

It is seen as another example of Christians being squeezed out of

public life. The government is stepping in, scene councils will be

given the power to decide from themselves. Those bringing the case

are not happy about the argument. The let us not forget that Britain

can be proud of the freedom of religion that it extends to

everyone in this country almost probably the best country in the

world and the I think that the MP is trying to impose religion on

other people when he should not be. Gary Streeter says his committee

intends to take the inquiry further to hear the opinions of other faith

groups and minorities. Back in West Cornwall, Hazelmary Bull says it

some are been seen as more equal than others they are prepared to

take their fight back to the courts for a third time.

We are joined now by the Ravenhill from Clement -- Plymouth Methodist

Community Hall. Do you agree that the law is unfair. I think there is

a strong bias. People feel that the dice is weighted against Christians,

when it two issues are weighed one against the other, they feel the

dice is weighted against the Christian. Were examples can you

give me? In a secular society, as the report said, there is a

religious illiteracy among people who have decisions to make. The do

not understand how Christians feel, what makes them take. The Christian

faith is increasingly seen as a hobby that people enjoy doing. It

is what we are. It is our whole being. When you are a Christian, it

shakes everything. The idea that been a Christian it should be a

private occupation and not in Athlone should judgments at all is

quite foreign to us. Ben Bradshaw, turning to the case of the hotel

owners. What is your view? Should she be allowed to deny it a service

to customers on the basis that their belief that has not agree

with yours? I welcomed the legal raining in that case. By and for

freedom of religion and freedom of faith and freedom to practise my

face. That freedom cannot impinge on the fundamental human rights of

others. We have a quality legislation and we do not

discriminate against gay couples. If you want to provide goods and

services, you have to obey the law. As a Christian, I fear that is the

right decision. A Anne Marie, do you agree with this? Both need to

be looked at equally. I share them's view. We need to remember

that the couple in question were in business. It is not a said it was

their private home. The challenge here is not the legislation, it is

the way it is interpreted. There are some challenges to get the

judiciary to take a more balanced approach. Do you believe there is a

case that if the hotel owners were Muslim or seek or Hindu, this would

be treated differently? In terms of their perception? Inevitably.

Because 44 million people in this country are Christians, there is a

greater sensitivity. Do I think they are they are right? Know. It

has to be equal. If the Muslims had stopped a single woman, it is about

the national law. I love we live in a Christian country, but we also

have a lot that respects other faiths. That law is based on

quality. I think that is a Christian principles. Reverend Paul

Smith which you agree with that? feel there is a growing feeling

amongst Christians that the equality legislation takes Muslims

are seriously. Or other faiths. Or secularism. Does it take him far

more seriously and given more credit than the Christian faith.

The law has to make a point. Were the case had been brought if the

owners had been Muslims? People are perhaps more sensitive to the use

of other religions then? Absolutely. At group of young Muslim men have

just been prosecuted for distributing homophobic literature.

You cannot say that. The case is not about homophobia. It is about

the rights of conscience of individual people. Thank you. Our

regular round-up of the political week. Paul Conroy has been rescued

from Syria. The Prime Minister praised his courage and those who

help to get him out. Many of whom have paid a high price. Lib Dems

worried about regional pay in the public sector call for a report

into the impact it would have on Torbay's economy. Animal-welfare

groups launched a legal challenge over the badger cull. They say the

plan to control TB breaks European regulations.

Drivers on the Isles of Scilly are to benefit from a five pence

discount on fuel. Danny Alexander said rural motorists elsewhere

should not get their hopes up. is for this area. We are pleased we

are benefiting them. This children's Playhouse on Dartmoor

has to move. The National Park Authority says it breaks planning

rules. That was our round-up. Ben Bradshaw,

concerns and Torbay about introducing regional pay. Should

public sector workers in the South West's suffer pay cuts as a result

of trying to even out the paid? Know. That would be a bad move for

the economy in the South West. If it happened, our wages would be cut,

because private sector pay here is relatively low. We already have the

biggest gap between what people earn and house prices, so it would

make the house price affordability problem worse. This is an idea that

George Osborne raised at the last Budget and I hope he drops it at

the next Budget. The were due supported? We need to look at it.

If there is any suggestion that people take pay cuts, we need to

recognise a... The private sector earn less. To even that out, you

would have to give the public sector less money. That is all

about implementation. That is something you do every time. You do

not suddenly give people a pay cut. You do have to look at it to get

the balance right. We have high a housing costs, but some other costs

are lower. The salary house to meet the cost. We need to look at that.

There is speculation that it in the South West it would not necessarily

fall, because public sector pay is relatively low. It would be done on

the basis of what you have to be able to meet with that sum of money.

It is a fair point. If housing costs are lower, you should be paid

slightly less. They are not law. They are the highest in the country

compared with wages. Transport costs, a lot of people rely on cars

and petrol costs have reached record levels. You either but wages

up in London and the South East and the Chancellor will not

recommending that, or you put them down in areas like the South West

were private sector wages are lower. I think it is a bad idea. I'm

amazed the Liberal Democrats did not stop it coming out in the first