11/03/2012 Sunday Politics South West

In the south-west: People worried health reform will mean a health

care gets worse. And the master craftsman at the

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1811 seconds

Welcome to Sunday Politics. Coming up: The immigration rules force a

craftsman to stocktaking pupils. My guests -- My guests this week

bring together two of the region's glorious uplands. The Labour peer

Ann Mallalieu, long-term resident of Exmoor, president of the

Countryside Alliance and once described by the Daily Mail as a

Brigitte Bardot look-alike, and Dan Rogerson, the Liberal Democrat MP

for North Cornwall and chairman of the All Party Parliamentary Cheese

Group. As I have the President of the Countryside Alliance, I would

like to talk briefly about this free vote to a peel the have -- the

hunting ban. The Government is vague about when it will happen.

People with in the hunting community are saying, they do not

want it? They have done the sums and they think you will lose.

think the figures are tight. It is not sure one way or the other. I do

think there will come a time... Would you like it in this

Parliament? Yes. As soon as possible. Every minute that act is

out, time is being wasted, animal cruelty has increased and I hope

there will be evidence of that MPs will look at. People are being

unjustly pursued and followed. this was a Conservative pledge. I

know you want a ban. Would you like to finish hunting for good? This is

something I approach with an open mind. I went on a hunt one day. It

was not the most exciting afternoon. I have looked at the situation, the

dire prophecies. That has not happened. So you are not fast?

think if there is a vote, the ban will stay. -- bothered. The NHS

reforms have dominated the news for another week. It is easy to forget

this is a health and social care bill. Providing social care is an

enormous challenge, particularly here in the south-west with the

elderly population. One part of Devon was held up as a shining

example of successfully integrating clinical and social care. It is

based on a structure which seems bound to disappear if the

Government's reforms become law. My cooker has been raised so I can

could easily. Mindy she appel has been able to keep our independence

despite her mobility problems because of adaptations like these.

Suffering from depression, angina, arthritis and asthma, she needs

help from the NHS and social care services which are traditionally

provided by separate bodies. She feels she has benefited from a

joined up way of working which is being piloted in Torbay. You will

get somebody who will come from occupational therapy and she will

know somebody else that could help me in another area. You start off

with one person and then you have everybody. It is brilliant. Under

the scheme, the care trust received a budget from the NHS and the local

authority to buy services for residents. Both health and social

care staff work from that same building, providing a contact point

for residents and means home helpers are able to work closely

together to provide the services needed. A recent Health Select

Committee report says Torbay Integrated Care Project has bought

benefits. These include fewer emergency admissions, shorter stays

in hospital and fewer delayed discharges. But the report also

highlights concerns raised by Torbay Council that their

partnership working will be diminished by the imminent health

reforms. Some Liberal Democrats are also sceptical about the changes.

The health reforms actually make the creation of a single body more

difficult. The reforms are not going to help the process of

achieving efficiencies the Government want to achieve. In the

new NHS, it will not be possible for one body to buy or commission

both health and social care services. Health ministers say this

question of structure is not important but the real lesson to be

learnt from debate is about culture and behaviour within the

organisation. Dr Sarah Wollaston agrees. Residents in Torbay will

agreed -- will continue to enjoy a joined up service. There is a real

commitment from the authority, a real commitment from the Torbay

Care Trust and the GPs to carry this work on. It is so important.

not everyone is so optimistic. we are getting is silent working --

so are working. Policies are developed and it is back room

working. Mindy's experience of joined-up working has been positive

and few would argue against the principles of integrating health

and social care. The real contentions are over whether the

reforms will deliver the organisational structures to allow

what Mindy has benefited from to continue.

Dan, the Health Minister said the tour they set-up was an experiment

which did not get out of a lab. It seems to suggest it did not work.

Bringing the two things together is where we want to be. It is the

question of how it happens. It is just one model. If you look at

Cornwall, we have hubs where professionals from health and

social care work together without being in one institution. I suspect

as proposals move forward, that will allow a councillors to be

represented and to set strategic plans for health and social care

across an area and those who are being commissioned to provide will

have to work within that sector. They do not need to be in one

building. It could be more integrated. Another point the

minister made, he said the lesson from Torbay was not structure or

cultural. But we should talk to each other. If you apply that to

the NHS reforms, you would not be turning the whole thing upside down.

You would just say talk to each other. There are two aspects to

this. Who delivers it and who commissions it. You need to bring

decommissioning together so there is a vision for health and care.

When it comes to delivery, I have constituents who are happy with the

set-up and those who are not. They might want to go somewhere else. It

is giving them the opportunity to get the service which they want.

Your government set up this pilot. Would you continue? Certainly. The

Health Bill is being kept afloat by the Liberal Democrats. They paused

it. They have decided for reasons of their own which are unclear to

me that the Bill is going to continue. Every amendment was

defeated this week. The Government had its way. That bill will reach

the statute book because of the Liberal Democrat support. It will

set one group of doctors against another. I cannot understand why

anyone would think it is good practice to let people go out,

imply a -- employee their own commissioning agents, by their own

medicine when a group can buy things at a more advantageous rate.

Torbay is doing something addressing that. They are bringing

things together in cutting out layers of telephoning and then you

get passed on. Integrating the whole service. Torbay is an example

of what ought to be happening throughout the Health Service

throughout the country. I think it is a tragedy the attempts to put

things right a going to make things worse. It is a staggering thing to

say that what was happening was integration. When I looked at what

happened in Cornwell, we had increasing involvement in the

private sector with attractive contracts for the private sector

whether they carried the work out or not. This way is more

transparent and it is a level playing field. We want a better

deal rather than just handed over to the private sector. A large part

of the most important people, in particular the doctors, do not see

your way. If you produce reforms which produce this level of

disquiet, you really ought to stop and look again and see what you're

doing. The Lib Dems started doing and pours the bill. Now they have

given in. Since they left office, Labour

politicians have admitted they did not do enough to address

immigration. The coalition has forged ahead with policies to bring

her immigration levels down. For some, it is having unpleasant side-

effects. Language schools have already protested about the damage

the rules are doing to them. Johnny Rutherford has been talking to a

different kind of businessman. Passion, enthusiasm, commitment,

determination and creativity are said to ooze out of this workshop.

There are no traditional examinations, these students learn

their craft in an old-fashioned way. David Savage runs the year-long

specialist courses from West Devon. Recent changes in immigration rules

are ruining the business. I am at the top of my field and I have

drawn people from all over the world to come here and to study.

Now I cannot do that. Is too difficult. That is a real shame

because people are coming here for what is great about Britain. Our

sense of quality, skill and knowledge. We can no longer do it.

Are to be able to sponsor a foreign student's application for a visa,

you now have to have highly trusted status. You get this by paying for

assessment to become accredited. have already paid over �4,000 for

accreditation. That is good for six months. It is not good enough for

the border agency. If we want to sponsor a stint for one year. For

that, we would have to seek a new accreditation from the new body and

that would cost more than double. Even then, there is no guarantee

the border agency will give us highly trusted status. To apply for

a visa, a student must be given a CAS number by their sponsor, a

confirmation of acceptance on the cause. David was allotted three CAS

numbers were 1 student application failed on a technicality. A single

case amounted to 33% of their allotment. Policy states failure of

more than 10% Prince schools even applying up for highly trusted

status. -- prevents schools. might be OK for a university that

has been allocated 400 numbers. We were allocated three. It is

completely unfair and discriminates against the small specialist

college. Within a year, this workshop will have to change.

Already they have lost a quarter of their students and a permanent

member of staff as a direct result of the Government changing

immigration policy. Christopher Brown travelled from

Texas to learn from David. He may be the last long-term international

student at the college. I came to the workshop because this is one of

the few places in the world where you can learn these skills under a

master craftsman. In the difficult process to go through but it would

have been a huge loss to me and it will be a huge loss to others if we

cannot do this. That potential loss has been noted by David's local MP

who thinks the Government should make allowances. I intend to be a

thorn in the Government's side on this. This is a matter of principle.

It is important. When you have a figure like David Savage, who

increases and contributes to the cultural and artistic reputation,

you have to design rules that do not run a bulldozer over the

artistic endeavours of people like him. The Home Office says

immigration was allowed to get out of control. A spokesperson told of

it is vital the UK continues to attract the best international

students but they said they have to be more selective about who can

come here and how long they can stay.

Damp, I will ask you this. If you are broadly supportive of the

immigration strategy, would you except possibly this situation is

the price worth paying? Yes. It is interesting the population in that

this country is increasing the birthrate. I think it is legitimate

to have this conversation about immigration. I struggle with

something that came from the Conservatives, flat caps on numbers.

Then you get this situation here. The Government will have to refine

it up to deal with cases like this. As long as we continue to bear down

on illegal immigration and processing asylum cases, that will

lead to better gains than getting the people who play by the rules.

And, is the coalition having to clear up the mess? I think so. We

were very relaxed. There were far too many people who came on bogus

courses and disappeared and we had no means of checking who went out.

The public rightly wanted to see things changed. I do not think they

want to see what is going on now which is a role which has no

sensible flexibility. Something like this, it is crazy. Students

shouldn't have to go through this if it is a course they can't get

anywhere else. I have had people saying about racing, this is my

best rider but he is not allowed to come back. He has got to go. We

have got to have flexibility. Especially with people who have

particular skills all want to learn the skills we can uniquely provide.

I dislike rules with no exceptions. Now for our round-up of the

political week. The leaders of Devon and Somerset

Fire authority see their careers go up in smoke after the reaction to

their plans to put up council tax and members' allowances. I should

not be punished. Allegations of arson and milk contamination at

this farm. The owner thinks he has been targeted for supporting the

badger cull. There are people in the country who can do such an act,

I cannot believe it. Eight Devon MP demands compensation for the few

men and vegetable victims of sudden ogre death. We want the trees to be

be planted and we want successful woodland. Planners give the go-

ahead for a �1 billion new town besides these rolling green fields.

Where do you stand on badger culls? Behind people who speak out and say

what they think and are on the receiving end of criminal behaviour

like that. I am on the side of a cull in areas where there is a

serious TB problem. I would like to see the people who set these barns

a light, come and help in areas ridden with TB. Let them see what

is going on the farms. The Lib Dems promised a cull. It is not

something that all of you are comfortable with false up I am not

comfortable with it. None of us want to see animals destroyed. The

only way we are going to bed down on this disease, if we look at all

the sources of infection, badgers are part of it. Some are opposed to