11/03/2012 Sunday Politics South West


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In the south-west: People worried health reform will mean a health


care gets worse. And the master craftsman at the


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1811 seconds


Welcome to Sunday Politics. Coming up: The immigration rules force a


craftsman to stocktaking pupils. My guests -- My guests this week


bring together two of the region's glorious uplands. The Labour peer


Ann Mallalieu, long-term resident of Exmoor, president of the


Countryside Alliance and once described by the Daily Mail as a


Brigitte Bardot look-alike, and Dan Rogerson, the Liberal Democrat MP


for North Cornwall and chairman of the All Party Parliamentary Cheese


Group. As I have the President of the Countryside Alliance, I would


like to talk briefly about this free vote to a peel the have -- the


hunting ban. The Government is vague about when it will happen.


People with in the hunting community are saying, they do not


want it? They have done the sums and they think you will lose.


think the figures are tight. It is not sure one way or the other. I do


think there will come a time... Would you like it in this


Parliament? Yes. As soon as possible. Every minute that act is


out, time is being wasted, animal cruelty has increased and I hope


there will be evidence of that MPs will look at. People are being


unjustly pursued and followed. this was a Conservative pledge. I


know you want a ban. Would you like to finish hunting for good? This is


something I approach with an open mind. I went on a hunt one day. It


was not the most exciting afternoon. I have looked at the situation, the


dire prophecies. That has not happened. So you are not fast?


think if there is a vote, the ban will stay. -- bothered. The NHS


reforms have dominated the news for another week. It is easy to forget


this is a health and social care bill. Providing social care is an


enormous challenge, particularly here in the south-west with the


elderly population. One part of Devon was held up as a shining


example of successfully integrating clinical and social care. It is


based on a structure which seems bound to disappear if the


Government's reforms become law. My cooker has been raised so I can


could easily. Mindy she appel has been able to keep our independence


despite her mobility problems because of adaptations like these.


Suffering from depression, angina, arthritis and asthma, she needs


help from the NHS and social care services which are traditionally


provided by separate bodies. She feels she has benefited from a


joined up way of working which is being piloted in Torbay. You will


get somebody who will come from occupational therapy and she will


know somebody else that could help me in another area. You start off


with one person and then you have everybody. It is brilliant. Under


the scheme, the care trust received a budget from the NHS and the local


authority to buy services for residents. Both health and social


care staff work from that same building, providing a contact point


for residents and means home helpers are able to work closely


together to provide the services needed. A recent Health Select


Committee report says Torbay Integrated Care Project has bought


benefits. These include fewer emergency admissions, shorter stays


in hospital and fewer delayed discharges. But the report also


highlights concerns raised by Torbay Council that their


partnership working will be diminished by the imminent health


reforms. Some Liberal Democrats are also sceptical about the changes.


The health reforms actually make the creation of a single body more


difficult. The reforms are not going to help the process of


achieving efficiencies the Government want to achieve. In the


new NHS, it will not be possible for one body to buy or commission


both health and social care services. Health ministers say this


question of structure is not important but the real lesson to be


learnt from debate is about culture and behaviour within the


organisation. Dr Sarah Wollaston agrees. Residents in Torbay will


agreed -- will continue to enjoy a joined up service. There is a real


commitment from the authority, a real commitment from the Torbay


Care Trust and the GPs to carry this work on. It is so important.


not everyone is so optimistic. we are getting is silent working --


so are working. Policies are developed and it is back room


working. Mindy's experience of joined-up working has been positive


and few would argue against the principles of integrating health


and social care. The real contentions are over whether the


reforms will deliver the organisational structures to allow


what Mindy has benefited from to continue.


Dan, the Health Minister said the tour they set-up was an experiment


which did not get out of a lab. It seems to suggest it did not work.


Bringing the two things together is where we want to be. It is the


question of how it happens. It is just one model. If you look at


Cornwall, we have hubs where professionals from health and


social care work together without being in one institution. I suspect


as proposals move forward, that will allow a councillors to be


represented and to set strategic plans for health and social care


across an area and those who are being commissioned to provide will


have to work within that sector. They do not need to be in one


building. It could be more integrated. Another point the


minister made, he said the lesson from Torbay was not structure or


cultural. But we should talk to each other. If you apply that to


the NHS reforms, you would not be turning the whole thing upside down.


You would just say talk to each other. There are two aspects to


this. Who delivers it and who commissions it. You need to bring


decommissioning together so there is a vision for health and care.


When it comes to delivery, I have constituents who are happy with the


set-up and those who are not. They might want to go somewhere else. It


is giving them the opportunity to get the service which they want.


Your government set up this pilot. Would you continue? Certainly. The


Health Bill is being kept afloat by the Liberal Democrats. They paused


it. They have decided for reasons of their own which are unclear to


me that the Bill is going to continue. Every amendment was


defeated this week. The Government had its way. That bill will reach


the statute book because of the Liberal Democrat support. It will


set one group of doctors against another. I cannot understand why


anyone would think it is good practice to let people go out,


imply a -- employee their own commissioning agents, by their own


medicine when a group can buy things at a more advantageous rate.


Torbay is doing something addressing that. They are bringing


things together in cutting out layers of telephoning and then you


get passed on. Integrating the whole service. Torbay is an example


of what ought to be happening throughout the Health Service


throughout the country. I think it is a tragedy the attempts to put


things right a going to make things worse. It is a staggering thing to


say that what was happening was integration. When I looked at what


happened in Cornwell, we had increasing involvement in the


private sector with attractive contracts for the private sector


whether they carried the work out or not. This way is more


transparent and it is a level playing field. We want a better


deal rather than just handed over to the private sector. A large part


of the most important people, in particular the doctors, do not see


your way. If you produce reforms which produce this level of


disquiet, you really ought to stop and look again and see what you're


doing. The Lib Dems started doing and pours the bill. Now they have


given in. Since they left office, Labour


politicians have admitted they did not do enough to address


immigration. The coalition has forged ahead with policies to bring


her immigration levels down. For some, it is having unpleasant side-


effects. Language schools have already protested about the damage


the rules are doing to them. Johnny Rutherford has been talking to a


different kind of businessman. Passion, enthusiasm, commitment,


determination and creativity are said to ooze out of this workshop.


There are no traditional examinations, these students learn


their craft in an old-fashioned way. David Savage runs the year-long


specialist courses from West Devon. Recent changes in immigration rules


are ruining the business. I am at the top of my field and I have


drawn people from all over the world to come here and to study.


Now I cannot do that. Is too difficult. That is a real shame


because people are coming here for what is great about Britain. Our


sense of quality, skill and knowledge. We can no longer do it.


Are to be able to sponsor a foreign student's application for a visa,


you now have to have highly trusted status. You get this by paying for


assessment to become accredited. have already paid over �4,000 for


accreditation. That is good for six months. It is not good enough for


the border agency. If we want to sponsor a stint for one year. For


that, we would have to seek a new accreditation from the new body and


that would cost more than double. Even then, there is no guarantee


the border agency will give us highly trusted status. To apply for


a visa, a student must be given a CAS number by their sponsor, a


confirmation of acceptance on the cause. David was allotted three CAS


numbers were 1 student application failed on a technicality. A single


case amounted to 33% of their allotment. Policy states failure of


more than 10% Prince schools even applying up for highly trusted


status. -- prevents schools. might be OK for a university that


has been allocated 400 numbers. We were allocated three. It is


completely unfair and discriminates against the small specialist


college. Within a year, this workshop will have to change.


Already they have lost a quarter of their students and a permanent


member of staff as a direct result of the Government changing


immigration policy. Christopher Brown travelled from


Texas to learn from David. He may be the last long-term international


student at the college. I came to the workshop because this is one of


the few places in the world where you can learn these skills under a


master craftsman. In the difficult process to go through but it would


have been a huge loss to me and it will be a huge loss to others if we


cannot do this. That potential loss has been noted by David's local MP


who thinks the Government should make allowances. I intend to be a


thorn in the Government's side on this. This is a matter of principle.


It is important. When you have a figure like David Savage, who


increases and contributes to the cultural and artistic reputation,


you have to design rules that do not run a bulldozer over the


artistic endeavours of people like him. The Home Office says


immigration was allowed to get out of control. A spokesperson told of


it is vital the UK continues to attract the best international


students but they said they have to be more selective about who can


come here and how long they can stay.


Damp, I will ask you this. If you are broadly supportive of the


immigration strategy, would you except possibly this situation is


the price worth paying? Yes. It is interesting the population in that


this country is increasing the birthrate. I think it is legitimate


to have this conversation about immigration. I struggle with


something that came from the Conservatives, flat caps on numbers.


Then you get this situation here. The Government will have to refine


it up to deal with cases like this. As long as we continue to bear down


on illegal immigration and processing asylum cases, that will


lead to better gains than getting the people who play by the rules.


And, is the coalition having to clear up the mess? I think so. We


were very relaxed. There were far too many people who came on bogus


courses and disappeared and we had no means of checking who went out.


The public rightly wanted to see things changed. I do not think they


want to see what is going on now which is a role which has no


sensible flexibility. Something like this, it is crazy. Students


shouldn't have to go through this if it is a course they can't get


anywhere else. I have had people saying about racing, this is my


best rider but he is not allowed to come back. He has got to go. We


have got to have flexibility. Especially with people who have


particular skills all want to learn the skills we can uniquely provide.


I dislike rules with no exceptions. Now for our round-up of the


political week. The leaders of Devon and Somerset


Fire authority see their careers go up in smoke after the reaction to


their plans to put up council tax and members' allowances. I should


not be punished. Allegations of arson and milk contamination at


this farm. The owner thinks he has been targeted for supporting the


badger cull. There are people in the country who can do such an act,


I cannot believe it. Eight Devon MP demands compensation for the few


men and vegetable victims of sudden ogre death. We want the trees to be


be planted and we want successful woodland. Planners give the go-


ahead for a �1 billion new town besides these rolling green fields.


Where do you stand on badger culls? Behind people who speak out and say


what they think and are on the receiving end of criminal behaviour


like that. I am on the side of a cull in areas where there is a


serious TB problem. I would like to see the people who set these barns


a light, come and help in areas ridden with TB. Let them see what


is going on the farms. The Lib Dems promised a cull. It is not


something that all of you are comfortable with false up I am not


comfortable with it. None of us want to see animals destroyed. The


only way we are going to bed down on this disease, if we look at all


the sources of infection, badgers are part of it. Some are opposed to


Andrew Neil and Martyn Oates with the latest political news, interviews and debate, including work and pensions secretary Iain Duncan Smith and chief secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander.

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