30/09/2012 Sunday Politics South West

In the South West. Is the Lib Dem's key education

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2124 seconds

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in the South West. Coming

up. How rich should pensioners be before they give up their free bus

passes, free TV licences and winter fuel allowances? I am joined by her

Liberal-Democrat Peer Robin Teverson, hopefully not too over-

excited after the conference and by Luke Pollard to stood for Labour in

the safe Tory seat of South West Devon at the last election. I

spotted you their spying on them. You will see me at the Labour

conference this week. That is about to kick off in Manchester and I

caught up with Ed Miliband and he made this admission. We were too

late to the issue of housing. left the coalition with the lowest

building up of houses since the 1920s. House building has gone down

under this government. There is a huge debt with the recession, but

even before that it was low. recognise the need to build

affordable housing and give councils the right to build more

houses, but we did it too late. The question for the future in all

these things is how do we move on. So, the Europe leader admitted that

his government fiddled and postponed it until the 11th hour.

This is the biggest issue here. is. I think what he is doing is

grappling with the big issues that we have to face for the next

manifesto. We need more affordable homes. How will that happen?

need to make sure that measures about affordable housing are put in

place and what we have got is a government that is taking away the

restrictions on housing so developers do not have to build any

affordable housing in their developments. What will you do that

is new and different? We need to look at new ways of ownership, new

ways of unlocking public sector land that has not been built on.

They are a whole host of ideas that are been looked at by the Labour

Party, but what is certain is that if you take away the compulsion for

housebuilders to build affordable houses, they will not build

affordable houses, they will build a luxury flats. When you were in

opposition, he said the problem with Labour is that it muscled in

on councils and told them to build homes. Is that not what you are

doing now? It is still a big problem. There has not been much

progress over the last two years. I think what we have got to do...

There is a message this has to change. Housebuilding is down to

the levels of and 1923 -- in 1923. We have got to get that back in

balance and we have to get affordable homes. We are not saying

that all that affordable housing stocks, but it needs to be looked

at to make sure it doesn't get in the way of some construction.

you excepting it that it is not the case be if you leave it to local

councils, it will happen. You need a bigger man with a big stick to

make it happen. I do not entirely accept that. One of the problems

even on affordable housing is when people want to buy affordable

housing which is part of the scheme, you still cannot get mortgages

easily and some of the work that is being done on the financial side is

starting to take that barrier away. Do not go away.

Little makes a Lib Dem chest swell with pride as much as the pupil

premium. Extra funding for the poorest children is one of the few

things Nick Clegg says he would have died in a ditch for during at

the negotiations. One MP and now claims it is a cack-handed policy

which makes inequalities in school funding it worse. Lunchtime at

South Dartmoor Community College. Some of these children are getting

it free. But free school meals are not just about food these days.

Since the launch of the pupil premium, schools are given a large

dollop of money for each child on the school meals register. For some,

the way of dishing out the funding is proving hard to digest.

problem is that the money is being allocated in a cack-handed way and

is not getting to the places that need it most. Devon is among the

lowest funded education authorities in the country. Last year, it has

given �4,600 of funding per pupil and in London be received at twice

that amount, �9,300. The pupil premium is one of the flagship

policies of the Liberal Democrat designed to address inequalities in

education. In it is a huge amount of extra money. It is given

directly to schools to teach children for more disadvantaged

backgrounds and the teachers as well will be completely free to do

with that money would every they want, what they judge to be best

for the children. But Nick Harvey says it is based on a clumsy and

crude measure of income levels. There are many areas that we know

from all the other economic statistics are very poor areas were

perhaps rather surprisingly the free school make it -- meal claim

count is below average. He and the Speaker areas are then not getting

the pupil premium on the scale they were expecting and far from

narrowing the gap but there are between the poorer areas and

wealthier areas, it is increasing it because it is not working in the

way it was intended. Pupil premiums are worth �600 per student claiming

free school meals, next year it will go up to �900 and the funding

is set to double in 2014. The worry is that schoolchildren in the South

West are losing out because even though incomes here are amongst the

lowest in the country, only 10% of secondary pupils in Devon are

claiming free school meals compared to the national average of 15%. In

rural areas it is thought there may be more of the stigma attached to

claiming compared to towns and cities. It is a blunt tool. The

funding of follows youngsters who get free school meals and

unfortunately a lot of parents particularly in rural area do not

apply for those free school meals, they are either too proud to apply

for them and believe they should stand on their own two feet or are

they perhaps do not have the literacy skills to complete the

paperwork and feel intimidated by the whole system. The Department

for Education says the pupil premium is designed to help the

most disadvantaged pupils and says the scheme has recently been

extended to include students who have claimed free school meals at

any point in the last six years. If Nick Harvey is right, it is

extremely embarrassing, the great pupil premium, the flagship policy,

which is not really working in the rural South West? There are issues

around at the rural areas and it is important to us here. It basically,

the premium is the right thing and what it is trying to do is even up

people's life chances. Some other policies, like child care, are

really starting to come through but the problem is we do not have the

right indicator and as in Nick says free school meals at... Similar

places in terms of poverty, Sunderland, Tower Hamlets have a

much higher level of free school meals so what we need to do is

based this, perhaps we look at the way it is based statistically.

There is no indication that that will happen and it looks as though

this has been it scuppered. should not be a... There is a

fundamental problem here which has been going on for a long long time.

What we do have to change is the basis on which it is done. That

might take a while. It means we do at least have the right policy we

just need to make sure the way it is looked at it is refined. I

absolutely agree with him on that. A Nick Harvey also said that all

three parties were a keen on some kind of pupil premium. What do you

think? The devil is in the detail. All the main parties for wanting to

give more to schools. What you report did not say is about the

school at cuts that are taking place, the cuts in terms of

education and what the Government is doing is taking with one hand

and giving some with another and that does not balance out. Try to

keep it specifically to what this focuses, this premium and but it

would have achieved. I think you were nodding when Nick Clegg said

that schools can do what they like with it. The problem is head

teachers are not doing what they like with it. It is not focused on

the most vulnerable children. answer to that it would be to

Ofsted what is your job to do other than to check how this is being

done. The Government could ring- fence it though. You could do, but

there needs to be more accountability. One of the things I

welcome is that schools were now. After publicly state how they use

this money. I think head teachers know best how to use this money.

They perhaps need some help on it, but the last thing we want is the

big dictate coming down from the Department of Education at saying

how you use this money. It goes to the right places generally. What

schools need to do is to make sure that they use it in the right way

for the specific pupils from poorer families, not just on free school

meal children. How would Labour be focused on S? You need to look at

the basket of measures that define poverty and the Government have not

got it right when it comes to funding education here. It is also

looking at the other school budgets because this is a good... Places

like Devon and Cornwall are traditionally underfunded. It is a

bit like housing. You consulted on changing the system. He and

teachers need to know that they're getting a fair amount of money to

provide education for that community. At the moment with cuts

and the problems with the pupil premium we're not getting that.

Whether it is Labour other Tories or the Liberal Democrats, we still

have two and a half years of this coalition and we need to make sure

that the Government is getting it right for the children matter in

education now and that means looking again at the conditions

that about pupil premium and the reasons why families are not

claiming it. We need to get life chances sorted. That is the clear

thing. That central message and that is a Liberal Democrat message.

We will now go to the other end of the age range. Remember the row

when George Osborne came up with his plans to take a child benefit

away from higher earners? Last week in Nick Clegg floated a similar

idea to trim benefits for the elderly which would see some of

them lose the bus passes, winter through a -- winter fuel allowances

and free TV licences. It is the last day of the season at this

bowling club with these over- sixties are making the most of

their retirement. Nick Clegg bus Commons this week about some

benefits they get has got them talking in the clubhouse. If we

lose things like that, it of censure costs. Hopefully I will get

the �200. It cost me �800 to do one or oil tank. If you are paid

�40,000 by year, you should not be receiving the benefits. At the

moment, all over-sixties can get a winter fuel payment worth �200,

free prescriptions, eye tests and a bus pass. Over 75 so eligible for a

free TV licence. Add to this other means tested benefits and the

elderly are running up the bill for the taxpayer in excess of �100

billion per year. Nick Clegg says his party would be prepared to

examine cutting in the universal benefits for some older people.

think there are many millionaires in this country who in the future

will be much in the spirit that I am saying that people of

considerable wealth want to make a contribution will also say

voluntary early that maybe they should give up some of those

universal entitlements to help the people who are less lucky than them

to make ends meet. Campaigners are anxious. Universal benefits are

there to help all older people. If you try and tinker with them, we

are going to see lots of older people who have needs slip through

the net. This is a sensitive topic and although the Prime Minister has

ruled out a touching pensioners' benefits in this Parliament, the

coalition is now looking be on this. George Osborne has raised the

prospect of a further �10 billion worth of cuts to welfare spending

in the next parliament and a growing number of voices are saying

it is universal benefits for the elderly that is an obvious target.

One of Devon's comfortably of a pensioner's thinks the winter fuel

payment is particularly nonsensical. I remember picking up a very large

cheque from Strictly Come Dancing and in the same post finding the

Government had so kindly giving me a winter fuel allowance. That is a

nonsense. My view is that the winter fuel allowance should be

means tested, but simply so. Simply say higher-rate taxpayers should

not get the winter fuel allowance. Institute for Fiscal Studies says

it targeting only millionaire pensioners would not make a dent in

the deficit and Ann Widdecombe things that the Liberal Democrat

leader needs to rethink. He is right on the principal been that

the wealthy should not get handouts. He is right on that. Were he is

wrong is trying to define what he perceives as well which is the

usual liberal Democrat resentment towards anyone who has done well.

By get the bowling club there is a feeling that the wealthy could

force that some benefits but there is an acknowledgement that it could

be a tricky target. We are joined and now from our Westminster studio

by James Browne from the Institute for Fiscal Studies. Welcome to the

programme. You have crunched some of the figures and what do you

think? If you were a to take things like the winter fuel payments and

free bus passes away from people with very high levels of wealth,

millionaires, that would not save much money. To introduce a whole

new system of means testing and would more than offset the savings

you would get from that. In order to save serious amounts of money

from a policy like this you would really need it to say give these

benefits to those pensioners who are on pension credit and that

would save around �1.4 billion per year. When Nick Clegg clarified his

position he said he would only be targeting the very rich, so that is

nonsense in your view? Well, you could introduce a system like that,

but I think you need to think more fundamentally about how we design a

system of support for older people and whether we need all these

separate little benefits on top of the state pension and pension

credits as a means tested top up which we have at the moment. I will

bring in the studio guests. Nick Clegg has apologised for the

student fee pledge something he said he had not thought through

properly, is this another thing he has not thought through properly?

We are discussing it at the moment. We're talking about after the next

general election and other things they might stand for. What is clear

across all the Liberal Democrats who have spoken on this is that

this is an area were work needs to be done. We are talking about a

prolonged period of squeezing most of the population and most by a

feeling that way, then surely people that are very well-off do

not need some of these benefits. you in favour of this? Or we

stalking about millionaires? would agree with some of my other

colleagues. Some who say it should be a lower level than that. You

would have to do it through the taxation system, you would have to

do it through an income based rather than an asset-based or else

it would get too expensive. It is one of those areas that politicians

do not like to confront because there are losers in this as well as

winners but I think it is an area where we need to move forward.

heard Ann Widdecombe say it was absurd for her to receive a huge

cheque for a television appearance and a winter fuel allowance. A bit

odd for Labour to defend that. would be nice if all its seven

pensioners were receiving such checks. The majority of pensioners

are suffering from squeezed incomes and higher energy bills. What we

need is a proper system that recognises the real costs of

growing old and really supports them and universal benefits is one

of those safety nets that guarantees everyone on it and if

you could create a system without the bureaucracy and means testing

which the proposals would mean it then if that were to win public

support that is something to look at. I do not think that can be

created. The universal benefits have already come under attack from

the government and we need to protect those benefits to make sure

that when people know they're getting the allowance they are

getting protection. Do you think Ann Widdecombe it should he get up

at the winter fuel allowance? chose not to send it back. It is a

choice about whether you cash that cheque. If the preferred system was

implemented, it would not go down terribly well with the people you

want to vote for you what it? think the word. My mother who is a

Conservative supporter always says it is ridiculous that I get my

winter fuel allowance but she is not even particularly well off. A

lot of people and know that the people had difficult times and they

think we have the wrong balance. We have to get it right and it is

difficult but sometimes politicians have to lead. That's is something

today. We also know that Lord Sugar does not have a bus pass. Time for

our round-up of the Week in 60 seconds. The campaign to save the

planet airport continued. City councillors pledged to safeguard

the site for a possible reopening. Nurses fighting regional pay tell

him the new boss of our biggest hospital to think again. People are

demoralised. They're talking to me about quitting. Cornwall Council

leader Alex Robertson runs and so more opposition to his plans to

privatise council services. This time it is from his own deputy.

Badger cull opponents raised more than 100,000 signatures. The Chief

Executive of the Isles of Scilly Council that defence is huge

overtime claim. A I was working 18 hour days. It is perfectly

reasonable that that is respected. Cornish campaigners say Prince

Charles should give his Duchy back to the people. The airport of

course, potentially incredibly valuable to Plymouth. Be it is an

since it closed under the last Conservative administration we have

seen in the city suffer. It is great to see the Labour council is

preserving and safeguarding land and what they're calling for his

people to write to David Cameron and say that this land protected,

help us rebuild our airport because we need Connectivity. We need that

Connectivity that an airport can bring and it is great to see the

council taking a lead on protecting that. Your background is in

business. It is important isn't it? Yes. A major city should have an

airport. There is a major problem when you cannot let the -- land a

major jet there. I wish the council all the best on resolving this.

Duchy of Cornwall handed back to the people? Excellence idea. That

would be really good but I would be careful about the who those people

might be. It is a strange organisation. You would like to see

it taken away from the heir to the throne's it is more less run by the

state and the Treasury anyway. The money will go to Cornwall them?