14/04/2013 Sunday Politics South West

In the South West: The MP longing for even a pale imitation of Maggie

among today's Tories. And the man promising a return to

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2186 seconds

Hello, I'm Martyn Oates. Coming up on the Sunday Politics in the South

West: This big fan of Margaret Thatcher is standing more candidates

in the local elections than ever before, but will UKIP be a

beneficiary of the Lady's legacy? And for the next 20 minutes, I'm

joined by Labour peer Brenda Dean, Sarah Wollaston the Conservative MP

for Totnes and Stephen Gilbert, Liberal Democrat MP for St Austell

Monday, we've been deluged by archive footage of the 1980s. I hope

you haven't reached saturation point yet, because we're starting today

with a bit more. Brenda Dean rushed back to London

from an earlier meeting in Leeds. She led women through the crowd.

the unions, the stalemate is costly, with more claims to come.

it is down to our determination, we will survive. Your career in many

ways sort of mirrored Margaret Thatcher's. You would first woman to

lead a major trade union. You were almost literally on the other side

of the barricades in the 1980s. There seems to be a political

consensus that she was right and you were wrong, do you accept that,

looking back? I don't think it is as simple as that. When we had that

dispute, we balloted our members. The overwhelming majority voted in

favour, because we'd reached the end of the road on negotiations. The

main stumbling block we had then was the labour laws, the anti trade

union laws that had been enacted by this is that China... But Labour has

done nothing. -- enacted by Mrs Thatcher. We held a ballot, we

followed the law, but because of the ramifications of that antiunion

legislation, what ever we did with the secondary action and the union

was then second straight. What is your general verdict on your old

adversarial? She wasn't directly my adversarial. Her achievement as a

woman in politics in the 1970s was remarkable. She was elected leader

of the Conservative party in 1975, when the position of women in

Britain and indeed globally was so poorly recognised and represented

that the UN declared it international woman's year. Women

like me on the opposite side of the political fence were optimistic

about her election, we thought that was good for women. Of course, as

Prime Minister, diametrically opposed to much of what she tried to

achieve. Sarah, this week you said she showed a generation of women

anything is possible, but there has been persistent allegations that

actually she didn't do very much for women when she was in power and she

didn't behave in the way that many women would be able to or want to -

a complete workaholic, are all night drinking whiskey, reading papers.

Yes, that point has been made. I was a sixth form in 1979 and she

certainly inspired me and suggested anything was possible now for a

woman. That attitude which persisted and that women couldn't achieve,

that was swept away. That legacy is important. A lot of people like you

would say the key thing is the work life balance. Sleeping four hours in

24 hours, there was no balance for her. No, she was absolutely

dedicated to her work and that is very clear. She would have been

keeping up that frantic work life balance even its she had been Prime

Minister today. That is the point, she was completely committed to

serving this country. She was potentially a good role model. Prime

Minister in 1979, first woman, and yet it took over 20 years for women

to do really start making it in Britain, whether that's in the

professions... Not much in the unions, either. Boring politics,

although that is changing. -- or in politics. Stephen, your political

background is in the country. How do you view Margaret Thatcher's legacy?

I think she was a very divisive character. You either loved her or

hate it out, and certainly the communities that I represent have

good reason to question some of the things that she did. I grew up in a

working-class family during the 1980s and was at the raw end of some

of the change is the last Conservative Government brought

through. One of my earliest memories, I was coming out of school

at 14, watching her resign on the steps of the French embassy. So

there is a mixed legacy. There is no doubt she will go down as one of the

most outstanding postwar British politicians, and there is no doubt

she has left a mark on the country, but it is not entirely a positive

story and it is worth just reflecting on that as we mark the

events recently. Usually at this point, I say, it is time for

something completely different. But this is a significant political

moment, so we are sticking with the iron Lady. One Tory MP this week

sighed and said, how I wish for even a pale imitation of her now. Not

exactly a ringing endorsement of his present leader! We've been looking

back at Margaret Thatcher's impact on the region.

She had no strong personal links to the south-west other than the fact

that Cornwall was a favourite holiday destination. But the effect

of a time as Prime Minister was profound. The historic election of

1979 brought the strongest ever representation of Conservative MPs

in the south-west. 18 out of the 20 seats were held by the Tories.

Today, they hold just 14. Gary was elected in 1992 after Alan Clark

resigned his seat. He is in no doubt Margaret Thatcher was the driving

force behind that success. They used to be an expression around the

Cabinet, there is no alternative. What Mrs Thatcher said went. But

that is what you need in tough times. Quite a few people today

think that is what the leadership needs. There is little doubt her

abrasive style and conviction sharply divided voters and proved an

acquired taste among many of her own MPs. Three years into her

premiership, those convictions were put to the test, and the south-west

stepped up to a major role in the Falklands War. God save the Queen.

Just rejoice at that news. Victory in the South Atlantic propelled the

Government to electoral success once more in 1983, but there was little

rejoicing in subsequent years at the dockyard, which had played a vital

part in preparing the Falklands task force. By 1987, it had felt the full

impact of the Thatcherite Industrial Revolution. Here, the unions fought

hard but in vain to hold back the tide of privatisation. It was

somebody who was good at destroying things. I'm not sure whether she was

good at creating or mending things, and that was her downfall. Another

factor in that downfall was undoubtedly the community charge or

poll tax. In 1990 in the south-west and across the country, there were

angry protests on the streets. Mrs Thatcher resigned that November, but

Dorset NP Richard Drax who met her said she was a strong leader,

unafraid to make tough decisions. She didn't court popularity or focus

groups or spend, which so many politicians do today. She followed

her gut and everyone respected her. Whether you agreed with her or not,

she gained respect, and that is missing in politics today.

swansong in the south-west came a decade later when she addressed a

2001 general election rally in Plymouth. A delighted audience found

the Ireland Lady as indomitable as ever. -- the Iron Lady. She was a

strong leader but also hugely divisive. She split not just the

election but also her own party. Today, many feel it still has not

fully recovered. Sarah, by implication, criticism of

the present leadership. I don't see it that way. What we came across in

that clip was conviction. Margaret Thatcher was a conviction

politician. The implication is you don't see that today. Well, the

words used which is by save -- were divisive, sometimes hated.

suggestion seemed to be there is not that level of conviction in politics

today. I think this is a week to remember her excellent qualities,

and those were her excellent qualities. In many ways, you are a

conviction politician. It's got you into a bit of trouble with the

whips, occasionally. It probably isn't hastening your rise in the

ranks of Government, but you think it is right. I think people like and

respect politicians when they know what they stand for and are prepared

to stand up for it. Stephen, in terms of when politician should be

driven by conscious or conviction, I'll give you a recent example. The

local Government settlement, I know you and a lot of others said it was

hugely unfair for role regions. All of those MPs venture fully voted it

onto the statute books. If you'd voted with Labour, you would have

forced them to re-examine it. think you are right, there are

moments when you need to show conviction to the public. There are

other times, and this is one of them, when you can be more

influential working behind the scenes with ministerial colleagues

to get them to look again at the issue. But you began by saying they

must change their minds that this settlement and then suddenly you

said, we will change it later. in my case I was not able to make

the vote for personal reasons. I am determined to make sure Cornwall

Council gets a fair share of the national funding. We're not getting

it at the moment and I'm continuing to use my influence with colleagues

in Government to make that happen. Brenda, in tones of conviction

politicians, I guess what you want to be is a conviction politician but

also a winner. Not necessarily selfishly, but to implement your

policies. But you've got in Powell on the right, Michael foot,

conviction politicians are incredibly eloquent, shouting from

the sidelines throughout the careers. The problem with Margaret

Thatcher was her conviction was with confrontation. And that did not give

people who wanted to see a different way a chance to be part of a

consensus. We ended up with record unemployment, particularly among

young people, Holmes stopped being built. That legacy here in the

south-west, you can see that now. A very serious housing problem. So

simply to say, well, we need more conviction, what you need is

conviction in someone who will lead with consensus in the country to

take people forward. I believe that in Edmonton and we've got that

person. OK, OK! Lady Thatcher's death coincided with

two of the major parties launching their campaigns ahead of next

month's local elections. But some of the smaller parties have been quick

to claim they are the real conviction politicians of the 21st

century. Jenny Kumah's been talking to some of them.

More than 200 UK candidates are standing in the region's local

elections - a record number. If any of their candidates were to be

successful this time, Nigel for Raj would be celebrating the parties

first breakthrough. -- Nigel Farage. The last time, they fielded 33

candidates. This year, they have twice as many, fighting in almost

every single ward. They are hoping to build on the support shown for it

in the recent by-election in Eastleigh, where basic -- where they

came second to the Lib Dems. Let's hear the Eastleigh raw! No surprise

that the UK leader launched the local election manifesto in Exeter

at the recent spring conference. Immigration from Eastern Europe was

top of the Bill, and issue Councillors have no control over.

But the party says it matters. It also says it offers real localism.

The Tories talk a good game, but if you actually follow what they do,

talking about building houses, you could have every single person in

this area against having a new housing estate, but if it went to

local Government inspectors at Whitehall, local people could be

completely overwritten. That is not localism. We believe certain

policies should be taken by local people at the local level and not

overridden by central Government. Paula Black made history when she

was elected as a Green party councillor on to Devon county

council in 2009. But she defected to Labour last year, saying she felt

she would be more able to serve her community if she were part of a

bigger political group. One thing it demonstrates is how difficult it is

to be a single councillor representing a party in the council.

Unless you've got to councillors, you are not officially recognised as

a party, so one of our aims would be to have at least two Mac councillors

electors -- to councillors electors rather than having to work with

other parties on the council. The Lib Dem leader was in Cornwall this

week, launching their campaign. party is fielding 28 fewer

candidates in the county this time. The Conservatives are also down by

20. The number of independent -- independent candidates has also seen

a drop. But Labour has increased its offering. The Cornish nationalist

party is hoping the council tax row which has split the larger parties

will help them build on their six councillors. We are there to

actually look at what is best for Cornwall as a whole. When not

looking at narrow party politics or playing games, we have some very

good, political, professional candidates who are looking to put

Cornwall burst and make sure that whatever budget we have to deal with

is spent in the best way for the future of Cornwall and the long-term

future. While many of the smaller parties are putting up more

candidates in these elections, one is bucking the trend. The British

National Party fielded a team candidates in 2009. This year, they

are only putting up one, who is standing in Exeter.

Jenny Kumah reporting, and there will of course be more information

about next month's local elections and the candidates contesting them

on the BBC website. Sarah, are you worried that UKIP is

attracting people who don't like the modern face the Tories are

presenting? Well, as that clip said, as a local councillor you cannot

influence things such as immigration. You are there to make

sure your local area is properly served. Despite the fact the

Government says it is localising, you are saying you don't have much

planning power? Well, that is interesting. There was a huge public

meeting recently, and the Tories explained that localism doesn't mean

that you can say no to everything. You do need to provide homes for

people. What localism is about is saying where those homes should be,

not just saying, we're not interested in providing homes for

people, because there is a real housing crisis in the south-west.

After the Eastleigh by-election, polling showed that UKIP took as

many votes from the Lib Dems as they did the Tories. Is that worrying?

Well, let's wait for the local elections. I agree with Sarah, you

need to keep council tax low, and Lib Dems in Cornwall have delivered

that. You need to make sure the bins are collected. The Conservatives

running Cornwall Council did not even managed to collect rubbish

recently. It is about getting those basics right. Brenda, in terms of

housing, Labour have said you can choose whether houses go, but you

have to ill a certain number of houses. I used to be chairman of the

Housing Corporation, and certainly in the West Country and Cornwall a

lot of money was spent on social housing. But there still is an

enormous shortage. I think what was interesting on those clips you

showed, it was all about what they are going to stay top, not what they

are going to do. The gentleman said, well, when local people don't want

housing, it goes up to London and they decide. But people who are

homeless need housing. They are the people in the areas where UKIP want

to be elected. Sir I would challenge that strongly. We do have a housing

policy. Time now for our regular roundup of

The Fire Brigades union attacks what it describes as the biggest cuts to

frontline fire and rescue in Devon and Somerset in living memory. It

says the plans are unacceptable and dangerous and should be dropped

immediately. The longer you take to get to a fire, the more the fire

grows, which makes it more dangerous.

Devon and Cornwall's police commissioner denies his force is

standing still after a drop in crime figures simply cancels out a

previous rise. We're not by any means standing still and there are

many people in my own office and force working hard to drive crime

down and also to reduce the fear of crime.

Cornwall 's children's services come after several measures after OFSTED

notes significant improvements. It is now rated as adequate by the

Government Inspectorate. And after 11 years of illegal

occupancy, travellers next to will be given an official site.

What do you make of a fire service which on the one hand says increase

council tax but cut services? brand act knowledge is, there is an

economic crisis that we have to deal with. There are some difficult

decisions in relation to the age at which firefighters are expected to

continue... But in terms of this provision of services? The balance

should be left with a fire commander. But in terms of these

cuts to services, Brenda, presumably instinctively you are with your

colleagues in the union? Yes, instinctively, but not because they

are trade unionists. Because looking at the geography of the area we are

in, it is a very widespread area, you do need to have local services.

The coalition's policy is local services and they are now cutting

back on something which has been a really serious problem in Cornwall.

There have been some dreadful fires. I think people should think twice

before they get back -- they cut back on the services. The council

tax is going up and they are cutting services. There are some difficult

choices to make. But there is some good news, the number of fires has