09/06/2013 Sunday Politics South West


09/06/2013

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regional benefits cap would damage the local economy. And robust cuts

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2132 seconds

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Hello, I'm Lucie Fisher. Coming up on the Sunday Politics in the South

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West: A warning to bus passengers from campaigners who fear bus

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funding is about to be cut by a further 15%.

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And for the next 20 minutes, I'm joined by the Conservative MP Anne

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Marie Morris and Labour Councillor Nicky Williams - welcome to the

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programme. This week the Energy Secretary Ed

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Davey unveiled measures giving local communities more powers to block

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onshore wind farms. He said that far too often, people living nearby have

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seen the wind farms but not the windfall - he wants to see companies

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paying local people depending on how much energy is generated. But some

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critics say the policy could mark the end of onshore wind farms.

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Anne-Marie, have you given in on this one? Not at all. We need to

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recognise that if we want beautiful countryside as well as green energy,

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there needs to be a balance. The local people to be able to have a

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real say in what that balance should be is absolutely the way forward,

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particularly if they're going to get some financial benefit. You think

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the financial benefit will make a difference? You don't think people

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will just say, no, thank you. think people are far more savvy and

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sensible, and that is why as a government we've looked at giving

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them the opportunity to develop neighbourhood plans. This is part of

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the same move to give local communities control and respect

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their judgement. Nikki, what do you make of this? Could this be the end

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of wind farms? I think it certainly could be. We only need to look at

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the government 's plans for carbonisation. This is just another

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measure that will make it more difficult for investment in

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sustainable energy. Even if they get some kind of payment for having

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those wind farms near the house? think it's good that there are

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incentives for doing that, but actually, what we know by the

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campaigns up and down the country is people will continue to say, not in

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my backyard. They will actually oppose measures if they affect them

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personally. Well, stay with those, we've got plenty more to discuss.

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This week, Labour's top men set out to convince voters they can be

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trusted to run the economy. The shadow chancellor's "iron

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discipline" included the suggestion of a regional benefits cap, an idea

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which is already dividing Labour MPs. Some argue it makes sense to

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pay less housing benefit in places where rent is lower, but others are

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warning the South West economy would take a big hit. John Henderson

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reports. The war of words on welfare.

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Fairness is also about being fair to the person who leaves home every

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morning to go out to work and sees their neighbour sleep -- sleeping on

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benefits. George Osborne said his cap of �26,000 on benefit would do

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two things: yes, save him money, but, crucially, make work pay.

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well as a tax system where the rich pay their fair share, we have to

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have a welfare system that is fair to the working system -- the working

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people who paid for it. The benefits cap came into effect in April. In

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Cornwall, 114 families have had money taken away because of the cap.

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This week, the man who wants Osborne's job set out his plans and

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implied that true fairness could only be achieved by localising that

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benefits cap. A fair cap on household benefits, not one that

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costs more than it saves, but which takes account of housing costs in

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different parts of the country, with an independent body advising on

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whether the caps should be higher in high-cost areas like London, but

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potentially lower in other parts of the country. So how would a regional

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benefits cap work, and what would it mean for the South West? Exeter's MP

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is optimistic. It's ridiculous to have a one size fits all cap

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throughout the country when housing costs and rents vary so much. This

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is what we're talking about, housing benefit. In an area like the

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south-west and Exeter in particular, we have very high housing costs and

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rents, said the benefits cap should reflect that. The bill for housing

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benefit last year was a whopping �17 billion. The fear among some is that

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Labour's plan to control that spending with a regional benefits

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system could mean extra money to London claimants comes at the

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expense of those here. The question will then be, it's certain areas are

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going to receive more in terms of the benefits bill, how is this going

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to be paid for? Does this mean other areas are going to be squeezed?

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Labour MP in the North East has condemned his party's new approach.

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I am opposed to regional benefit caps in the same way that I am

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opposed to organising regional pay in the public service. It is unfair

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on the North of England and the south-west of England. Labour's

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conversation with voters on its new policies is only just beginning -

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its idea for a regional cap on benefits could prove to be a hard

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it a good idea? The devil is in the detail. It costs a lot more to live

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in London and we need to address that. I do have concerns about how

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it could impact Plymouth because we know rents are disproportionately

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lower than some of the immediate surrounding areas. So we really need

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to look at how they would intend to bring Latin and how it would affect

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local people. Back to bring that in. To discuss this, Brian is here with

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us. He has spent years working with people with benefits. Is this idea

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workable? I'm old enough to remember when Margaret Thatcher made housing

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benefits rocket. It was landlord is printing money. 13 years of the

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Labour government did not stop that. Housing benefit has been

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chopped. This idea seems to say we're going to limit housing benefit

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locally but private landlords can still charge what they want in the

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private sector. I'm not saying that is wrong for the landlord to do it,

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they provide a service and demeaned in many ways when they shouldn't be

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because many of them are very good. I can't see how this is going to

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work. This is a Labour policy, and something you are not sure you

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support. People are saying it is not even workable. Should Ed balls go

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back to the drawing board? We have not had the detail yet and we had a

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very broad announcement. What we do need to acknowledge is that people

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in certain parts of the country are suffering disproportionately because

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of the benefits cap. In Plymouth, we know that only 150 people have been

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affected by the benefits cap. That is probably 150 people to many, I

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would argue, but actually we do need to look at the more structural ways

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we can target resources, bearing in mind that we have a huge economic

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legacy which were going to inherit after that cutting of the

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Conservative government. Anne-Marie, Boris Johnson had some

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reservations about this kind of regional benefit, didn't he? What do

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you make of it? Interestingly, although then in your clip focused

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on housing, I think when I look back at what the policy was about, it was

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more holistic. But I do share the comment that it isn't workable,

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particularly if you start throwing in all the benefits, not just

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housing. I have concerns about what this would do to the private renting

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sector which we absolutely do need. It seems to be far too complex to

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actually work. Say in Exeter the average rent is �1100 and Plymouth

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about �800 for a family house. If the cap came in at �900, you might

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see people having to move out of Exeter and into Plymouth. I would

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worry about that, it is rather bizarre. It will just cause poverty

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and rent arrears. People will not leave their jobs. But since the

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spare room subsidy was introduced people have had to move out. I think

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that is the council tenants. We have to remember Labour did this to the

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private rented sector ten years ago. This exact same bedroom tax was

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implemented ten years ago. What would you like to see then? We need

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an investigation into the whole benefits system. In the 20 years

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I've been in advance -- advice worker, I've seen too many people

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living lives on benefits with no aspirations. Their children are the

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same. That is not fair on the children. If housing costs are lower

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in certain areas it does seem to make sense that they receive less

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benefits. There are limits to say what landlords can charge in Exeter

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and implement. Ed Miliband did not mention this in his keynote speech

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on Thursday. So you think it's all talk? I think it is another sign of

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dabbling. Boys and girls in the back rooms of policy people in London

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with not much of a clue. I'm cynical and I've been in this game for 30

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years. I wish they would ask is more. One fundamental point which

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has been mist is what was spoken about in this speech by Ed has been

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about making work pay. They would have more rights they been working

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for a longer of time. People should be valued for actually having

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worked. Is your benefit cap making work pay? Well, what's happening is

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people are beginning to look at this very -- this necessary balance

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between the two. In Cornwall, the average wage is 20000 and the cap is

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26,000, so maybe it doesn't make much sense to not have a regional

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cap. We all agree it is complex, but that is quite simple. It doesn't

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seem to make sense. The challenge is that housing benefit is not simple.

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It is not simply here is the amount you are paying and here is the

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figure. The calculation is not just here is the cap. It just doesn't

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work like that. Thank you very much for joining us.

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As ministers put the finishing touches to their 2015 spending

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plans, there are warnings any further cuts to bus funding would

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decimate the South West's rural network. Many of the region's MPs

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are lobbying the Treasury amid fears of 15% being slashed from bus

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budgets. Tamsin Melville reports. Getting the bus to and from her job

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at a Boscastle hotel would be a struggle for Sharon van der Linden.

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In the mornings I have to get dropped off because I'd have to get

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a three-mile walk to the bus stop anyway. And then there is a

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three-mile walk when I get off. Sharon's boss says a reduced service

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in the past year to a village reliant on tourism has been bad

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enough - and he's worried things could get worse. If there was a

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reduction in the service as it is now we would have trouble getting

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stats and we already have trouble getting staff. It cannot appreciate

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any more. Peter's fears aren't unfounded. The Campaign for Better

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Transport is warning buses could be hit by a 15% cut in the Spending

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Review at the end of this month, putting more rural services at risk.

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In Cornwall, bus operators have already been hit by Government cuts

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to a fuel rebate and a squeeze on the subsidy they get for over 60s

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free passes. One campaigner says any further cuts could signal a major

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decline in routes. In the last two years we have seen a reduction bit

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by bit of some routes, but I think it's could be a major service

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reduction, the likes of which in Cornwall we've not seen since 1971

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when I think 75 bus routes were withdrawn with major consequences

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for decades to come as a result. Some south west MPs representing

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rural areas are lobbying the Treasury to create a new pot of

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money to protect rural bus services. I think it is in the government 's

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interest to see economic development. Report after report has

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said the rural economy could generate far more jobs, could be far

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more of a driver for the recovery of the economy. In order for that to

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happen, people need to get around the rural areas. They can't all

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afford a car. That is why this is crucial. Back in Boscastle in Dan

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Rogerson's constituency, Sharon van der Linden finds the prospect of any

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further reduction in routes ridiculous. Well, there would be

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hardly anybody working because hardly anybody could get into the

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town. The Government's spending review will take place on the 26th

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:52:06.:52:06.

June, when the transport budget for 2015-2016 will be revealed.

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I'm joined by transport campaigner Richard from London. Welcome to the

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programme. Tel is your concerns, what is making you think cuts are on

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the cards for bus services? The big worry we have is what is happening

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to the whole transport budget. Funding for London and the highway

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maintenance will be squeezed, and particularly funding for buses.

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We're worried about what will happen to the main grants for buses. It

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could lead to a major reduction of services in rural areas. What do you

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want the government to do the government to safeguard the funding

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this time round. We know it is difficult, but it is a gentle --

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essential that we don't rush into changes. In the long-term, let's

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look at more efficient ways of funding bus services. But a real

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reduction in terms of services would be disastrous. Should we be worried

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about these bus services? Well, if that prediction comes true then of

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course and I'm very concerned about Rob buses. I've made in a bob

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representations to the government over the years. But there are two

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pots of money, one goes to the bus services and one goes to the

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council. In my concern is because of the cuts to the councils, put the

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two together and you will have a problem. So I think we need a fairer

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way of ensuring the raw part of our community get a fair part of the

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funding. At the moment, the funding part which is used

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disproportionately puts rural people at a disadvantage. I want a fairer

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funding formula so we take account of the role issue. -- rural. That

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could work. The real worry is about short-term cuts in the same time as

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making changes to funding. That happened in Wales and they have seen

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a significant reduction in services and a rise in pairs. Let's look at a

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better way of trying to find funding but in the short-term let's not rush

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into it in a desired to find spending cuts. Labour would be in a

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similar position, wouldn't they? There would have be cuts? Yes, but

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they need technology transport is vital to a growing economy. So we

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need to invest in our bus services to ensure people can access work and

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opportunities, not only in rural areas but in our cities. I'm deeply

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concerned about these proposed cuts in funding because there is a

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limited pot of money available to councils to subsidise bus services.

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Where would you see cuts be made instead? I'm not going to

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second-guess that an answer that here. Wouldn't people living in

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Devon rather see things like overseas aid cut them bus services?

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Things that are important to them and might make the economy grow?

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think we need to look strategically long and hard. I cannot give you an

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answer on that, I'm not a government minister so I don't have charge of

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those finances. But we do need a fundamental review of the spending

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that is going on. But you may have an opinion. Is area -- is overseas

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aid in area that you see as a possible cut? These suggested

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proposals on the grapevine - we don't know whether or not these cuts

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will actually be made - but in terms of whether cuts should fall, I don't

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think anybody enjoys cuts. As to where the right places, I think that

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is a very difficult call to make. Should bugs -- bus passes for the

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over 60s be means tested? Showed some of them be given to young

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people who are looking for work? issue of bus passes is a good one. I

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think it is important that the older person as the bus pass. What if they

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are very wealthy? Just a me out. -- just hear me out. If it makes them

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go out, then it is a good thing. But if they are wealthy, it is essential

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that they have the chance to not use it. I think we needed charity said

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that those who want to can give that benefit up. Richard, do you think

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the over 60s bus pass is working? think it is working. There are

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worries about underfunding. But if you want diverse communities then I

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think it's really important you support the independence of older

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people. I think there are changes you could make to the transport

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budget. The government is trying to push money into infrastructure and

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capital expenditure, and actually not all that is needed. More buses

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would reduce congestion, so I think that is where we should be looking

:57:20.:57:28.

at savings. Now, our regular round-up of the

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political week in 60 seconds. The Prime Minister was asked if he'd

:57:34.:57:44.

retire judges who didn't imprison convicted paedophiles. We have clear

:57:44.:57:48.

laws we passed in this country about how serious Parliament thinks

:57:49.:57:51.

offences are, and judges should pay heed to those laws.

:57:51.:57:58.

Lawyers protested about cuts to legal aid. The government cuts will

:57:58.:58:01.

make it untenable to continue. The badger cull was debated in

:58:01.:58:04.

parliament, while the St Ives MP advanced plans to give badgers in

:58:04.:58:13.

his constituency a TB vaccine. two pilot areas run the risk of

:58:13.:58:17.

making the devastating problem of bovine TB significantly worse. The

:58:17.:58:20.

vaccination programme would be significantly cheaper according to

:58:20.:58:23.

the report. And a council official in Dorset

:58:23.:58:29.

explained why it's taking so long to reopen the Beaminster Tunnel.

:58:29.:58:34.

you can see the guys up there are having to abseil. It is very steep,

:58:34.:58:44.
:58:44.:58:47.

so it is difficult. Let's look at the badger cull.

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Anne-Marie, do you think this could cost U-boats? Is it an unpopular

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measure which could cost U-boats? have to recognise the damage this is

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doing to farmers. Every time there is an outbreak, that is �30,000 they

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have to pay. We cannot allow it to go one. Half the outbreaks of bovine

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TB are in this region and it would be negligent to sit here and do

:59:11.:59:16.

nothing about it. Every country that has had this problem, the only way

:59:16.:59:20.

they have resolved it is by dealing with the wildlife. In Ireland they

:59:20.:59:25.

did it recently and there was a third reduction in infection. We

:59:25.:59:29.

need to look after the livelihood of our farmers and our community.

:59:29.:59:34.

you support the coal? I think the jury is still out as to how

:59:34.:59:38.

effective it might be. Other people are looking at vaccination is a

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problem. What about the idea that we are allowed to shoot rabbits and

:59:44.:59:49.

nobody seems to mind about that, and yet a badger seems to somehow go to

:59:49.:59:52.

the heart of people and they don't want to see that happening? Is there

:59:52.:59:58.

a difference? I think the issue is the amount of resources we are

:59:58.:00:04.

spending. Police policing the badger cull, that is a huge issue in its

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self. So we need to look at the pros and cons and how much it will

:00:07.:00:10.

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