14/07/2013 Sunday Politics South West

In the South West. The �5 million cut to fire services

in Devon and Somerset. And the MPs who say gypsy and

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2226 seconds

traveller sites shouldn't get on the Sunday Politics in the South

West. The duty to provide sites for gypsies and travellers. Conservative

MPs say it should be removed and we should take a much harder line with

illegal camps. And for the next 20 minutes, I'm joined by the Labour MP

Alison Seabeck and the Conservative MEP Julie Girling.

The company which runs out-of-hours GP services in Cornwall has again

come in for scathing criticism from MPs. The findings were in a report

commissioned by the influential Public Accounts Committee. Here's a

quick reminder of the heated exchanges which took place when the

company, Serco, was giving evidence to the committee.

How many unfilled shifts in January this year? In terms of unfilled

shifts, I'd could tell you these statistics for last Saturday.

to know them for January, February and March. It is important to

recognise... Just answer the question. In terms of non-clinical

or clinical or smack you can define them however you want but and so the

question. Unfilled shifts, recently highlighted in the media as well,

that is not an accurate way to measure the service.

Some might say that this is not terribly encouraging in terms of a

move towards even more private sector involvement in the NHS.

not familiar with the details of the Serco issue. The thing about service

in the health service is that it does vary from place to place. If

there is a problem in one place it needs to be sorted out and the

Public Accounts Committee have got their teeth into this. I hope they

come to a solution. But it does not mean, any more than all public

service is bad, that all private services are bad. In terms of out of

hours care, my own personal view, I have always been uncomfortable with

the reforms that came in and took it away from the family prang. I

thought that was a bad idea and I regret that it has not been changed

since the government changed. to go back to Labour, one of Julie

was my colleagues has also said that this happened in Cornwall where

there was insufficient monitoring by the primary care trust. Now we have

got doctors running the NHS and things are improving? I think there

are wider issue. This happens in all sectors to some extent or another,

public or private. The important thing is we need to get to the

bottom of what happened in Cornwall. I am about to work on a

Bill in Parliament designed to put a private company in charge of defence

procurement. We need to be sure that accountability is in place,

transparency is in place and mechanisms are there to ensure that

these things are properly scrutinised to avoid the kind of

examples that we have seen in Cornwall in particular. Harrowing

tales coming out from Cornwall. Fewer people are dying in fires and

firefighters are dealing with fewer emergency incidents.

That was the justification for over �5 million worth of cuts to front

line fire services in Devon and Somerset. But unions and members of

the public say the austerity-driven move puts lives at risk. Jenny Kumah

reports. Campaigners outside one of the most

significant fire authority meetings in recent years. But their hopes

were dashed as �5 million of cuts were voted through. They need to

revisit their plans. The level of cuts to the front-line is just

unacceptable. In Plymouth three fire engines would be cut from being

crude full-time to on-call. The second fire engine in Torquay would

be cut to on-call as is the second fire engine in Taunton. In

Ilfracombe the fire engine is being cut from being a full crew to being

on call. Plymouth, they will have on-call firefighters which means

that some residents served by this station are likely to see slower

response times. At the moment if you live here near Plymouth Fire can get

to you in an emergency within ten minutes. But under the changes this

week response times would be slower and you could have to wait up to

three minutes longer. The Fire Brigades union says the cuts will

put lives at risk. It is quite simple. The more if I developed the

more danger if resents both to the public and firefighters alike. So if

you delay by five minutes, how quickly will these people be able to

get to a station in the summer? It is not acceptable. But the Devon and

Somerset Fire authority argues that the cuts affect the changing nature

of their work. They saved the number of emergency incidents has

significantly dropped from 4000 in 2007, to 3000 in 2012. The reduced

pressure is on fire services were highlighted in a recent review. In

that report from the government it was said that fire deaths are at an

all-time low. It is not about cutting a service but adjusting it

to the new need of the public which is a lesser need in terms of

critical response with fewer fire deaths and injuries. The fire

authority agrees that their work is more about prevention and less about

response. The future for me is education. We have got to be

proactive rather than reactive to all situations. You have seen the

statistics, it makes sense to be proactive instead of reactive.

cuts made this week were about meeting tough spending targets set

by the government. Even though fire risks have fallen some are still

worried that the pressure to save money has led to a decision which

could put lives at risk. And so a couple of different

opinions. Is it in fact reasonable rationalisation of the service or

plain dangerous? For Plymouth, you have a moral service in an urban

environment and that does not make sense to us. No other comparable

city are looking to do this. We also have something like one third of the

major risks across the region, high-rise, nuclear activity,

students, the level of risk is enormous. So you would not dispute

the general point that incidents are coming down but saying that there

are special circumstances in? Absolutely. And what the fire

service are doing has been brilliant. But if all incidents at

now responded to three minutes later, how many will turn into

serious injury or fatality could make which previously did not

because of the staffing levels. If you talk to firefighters they will

say that a number of incidents do require two fire engines and require

them to be on-site promptly. There was a significant incident requiring

ladders and there are genuine concerns. The retained service, the

firefighters largely do a fantastic job. I would not say that they would

not do a good job. They would do the best job that they can. But the time

of response is crucial in a fire. Julie, do you agree with the unions

or the authority? I agree that we should look at it carefully. Money

does have to be saved across all services. Throughout the whole

south-west we do juggle with this issue around rural and urban areas.

Retained firefighters in the South West are fantastic. The work that

they do I think is second to none. Urban areas have unique problems. I

would say, let us be flexible. you happen to be that minor

statistic, your house is on fire, it is no consolation to you that

generally it does make sense. agree with that and risk management

is about weighing that up. Full risk assessment has happened here and it

has been deemed that that risk is small enough to be not significant.

Let us see how we go. Nobody could say that there could not be an

incident in Plymouth where two fire engines were required in five

minutes. But I think you can say with confidence that they have

looked at those possibilities and that they are sure that the plan and

they are putting in place will be adequate.

Should the government - and the taxpayer - have a duty to provide

residential sites for gypsies and travellers? Both this government and

the last one have said yes. This week, though, Tory MPs were again

insisting we shouldn't be giving them special treatment. But the

authorities should be doing more to evict them from illegal camps. Scott

Bingham reports. The debate over Gypsy and Traveller

pictures has divided political parties, councils and communities.

Under government guidance local authorities now have to identify a

supply of deliverable fights sufficient for five years provision

against locally set targets in their local plan. Cornwall Council

identified this plot overlooking the sea as a potential site earlier this

year. This lay-by in Cornwall is well known locally as an

unauthorised site which until recently was occupied by a traveller

known as the mushroom man due to the card wooden ornaments used to sell.

Cornwall Council put forward a planning application to create

permanent Gypsy and Traveller pictures here that there was

widespread local opposition. The application has now been withdrawn

and the mushroom man has moved on. Opposition to such land is often one

of the major obstacles to local authorities being able to provide

pictures. The local MP is firmly behind the object to this. To put in

a planning application after somebody had just decided to park by

the side of the road in a beauty spot was totally unacceptable. It

sent out the message that anybody who was prepared to flout the

planning laws would get away with it. It just was not right. She's not

alone her view. I did not think it is the responsibility of the

government to provide site for travellers. In most cases they are

people who are not vulnerable but have plenty of resources. I think we

should be better in forcing the law and removing them when they

gate-crash online. Some want to go even further along that hard line.

wanted to call my bill Gypsies and Travellers, the same planning rules

as everyone else. This week Philip Holub own called for the removal of

any special provision for Gypsies and Travellers from national

planning regulations. I do not see why one category of person should be

treated differently from anyone else. But Gypsy and Traveller groups

say when local authorities are already struggling to provide enough

pitches, such a move would simply force more people onto illegal

encampments. I think local authorities will us the chance to

have a home and have access to health and education and for a

permanent base. Cornwall Council forecast it will need 237

residential pitches by 2020 and has already approved 106 five since

2006. It says it needs assessment is currently being updated for the next

stage of the local plan. Well we're joined by the man whose

job it is to provide Gypsy and Traveller sites in Cornwall.

Councillor Jeff Brown. Where are you in your general need to satisfy

this? Well the people who have been resident in one area have actually

integrated well in one area and we have lessons to drool from that. We

need to engage with local communities much earlier. But we

need to provide, at the moment the target is 159 residential pitches.

We have achieved 106. There are two problems. One is that we need to

deliver pitches in places which Gypsies and Travellers will use and

secondly they need to be accepted into the local community. It is

incredibly difficult. One councillor said it was the most difficult job

they had ever had to do as a councillor. It is usually

challenging. It goes back to the Housing act of 2004, the obligation

to provide these pictures. And now there is a bill coming through

Parliament effectively saying, take the pain rushes away. Whether you

agree or disagree with the latest build, the fact is that those

Gypsies and Travellers will still be there and we need to provide for

them, for the welfare of the children and families and their

education as well. Julie, do you agree that really we do not as a

society open Gypsies and Travellers this service? I get confused by

travellers who talk about a permanent residents. If you are

asking to be provided with a permanent site then you're not

traveller. It is a cultural thing. I think I would say that transit

fights are one thing. There is still a community out there that moves

around, whether you like it or not, that exists. I live in

Gloucestershire where we have a gypsy fair every year and we see a

huge number of people travelling to that and the community has had to

adjust to that and has done it well. I think Ford transit there is an

issue. Councils to need to keep that in mind. But permanent residence for

people who say they are Travellers, it is just a logical to me. If you

want to stay in one place and integrate into a community, then

that is a totally different thing. You are the expert on this, what do

travellers want in these circumstances could make many of

them do want a permanent base. of them travel in the summer months.

Historically they travelled for work. In Cornwall it is one of our

largest ethnic minority groups and it is important to realise that we

have to provide for these people and it is better if we can provide for

them in local authority sites so we can put in sanitation, freshwater,

access to a network of support, medical and welfare support. Cheryl

Murray was talking that she knew of Romany Gypsies in her constituency

who had applied for planning a mission for a piece of land in the

normal way. And we get a huge number of applications that do come through

like that. The majority of our pitches are actually private

applications. If that's not a better way forward with Mac even with the

private applications, that is not delivering the number that we need

to deliver. I think it is safe to say that you do not take the view

that the obligation should be lifted from local authorities? No, indeed.

I think authorities are being enlightened and people do need

permanent sites. These are people who used to travel to pick hops in

Kent or do agricultural work in Lincolnshire and then return back to

a base where their children often were educated. So permanent is

perhaps not quite -- the right word. But they do not do that any more.

Most families still do. I do not agree with you about the need for

transit. Plymouth have just got the go-ahead for a transit site. We have

one persistent problem where it makes local people's lives hell. The

council are operating with one arm tied behind their back. It is

important that there is a duty to have transit sites. That will make

it easier to enforce as well. think the Labour government should

have taken a firmer line? It is years since you eventually restored

this requirement and it has crept along at a smell's pace. It has been

down to local councils to push it through and some have been better

than others. Cornwall clearly have made some very good efforts and

Plymouth have certainly tried. Whilst at the same time listening to

the concerns of people. Most people's experience of settling is

not a good one. A lot of Gypsies used to travel for agricultural work

in the summer. Much of that is now done by Eastern Europeans and Now

our regular round-up of the political week in 60 seconds.

The Gypsies are now often travelling through Europe. At one site I spoke

to one 12-year-old who was fluent in three languages. We will have to

leave it there. I am pleased that the court listened

to the challenge about fishing quotas. The Cornwall Council of the

sparks fury with comments about disabled children resigns. An

official report concluded that the things he had said were outrageous

and grossly insensitive. In terms of reputation it has not been good for

Cornwall. I regret that the comments were ever made in the first race and

that is the problem we have to address. It deal has been signed to

bring high-speed broadband to 97% of people in Dorset. It builds to

impose licensing on street traders was introduced. And there is also a

campaign to scrap business rates for public lavatories.

Julie, you know a lot about fishing. Some suggested that moving the quota

to smaller boat is not quite what it seems because some of the smaller

boats can be powerful. Nowadays they have good engines on some of them

but in the end they are small boats and there is a limit on how far out

to see they can go. They are limited by their seagoing worthiness. I

think the real issue in October and November, the Minister has committed

to publishing full quotas for the UK. Up until now that has been very

murky. Then we can get a good debate going. Let me just ask, this

recommendation that MPs should get bigger salaries? Well an independent

body have looked into it. And now nobody seems to like the outcome. I

would urge Mike constituents to contribute to the consultation