13/10/2013 Sunday Politics South West

Morning, welcome to the veritable pot pourri that is this morning's

Sunday Politics. We have Alastair Charmichael. We'll ask him what he

has that his predecessor Michael Moore hadn't. Ken Clarke just keeps

going on and on and on. He'll bang his drum for Europe.

Free of the shackles of Government, former Energy Secretary Chris Huhne

will be with us. We'll ask him for the inside scoop.

In the South West: The MPs Diane Abbott will join

In the South West: The MPs threatening to mobilise the rural

yeomanry in their fight for better council funding.

And what next for the says we've misunderstood the problem

of human trafficking and that men pundits who we try to shuffle out of

a job but failed miserably, Mick watt, Miranda Green Andijan an

Ganesh. They'll Tweet like mad as if Is Ed Miliband's Labour Party moving

chid owe Cabinet reshuffle was seen a a shift to the lot of. Two have

announced policy changes which could Pensions Secretary Rachel Reeves

says Labour will be tougher on the Tories. While Tristram Hunt says

Labour loves Tory-style free schools after all. Here he is on the BBC

viewers. If you are a group of parents, social entrepreneurs,

teachers, interested in setting parents, social entrepreneurs,

school in areas where you need new school place, the Labour Government

will be on your side. That's free enterprise and innovation. It will

will be on your side. That's free be in areas of need. We have a

school places crisis going on. It teachers in these schools. And

accountability. What is going on with the Al Madina school is because

of terrible mistakes with Michael I'm not sure if the policies have

changed, the change of tone is I'm not sure if the policies have

changed, the change of tone is remarkable, both on welfare and

changed, the change of tone is schools. A significant change of

reshuffle on the Labour frontbench last week was init wered as a purge

of Blair rights. It seemed to be a purge of anti-reform thinking.

Rachel Reeves was not saying anythi different on substance but saying

Labour will be tough than the Tories on welfare. You've seen that clip

from Tristram, free schools will be allowed to be set up in areas of

need. Greater oversight. But a completely different change of tone,

we are on the side of parents and social entrepreneurs who want to set

these up. A different change. Why are they doing this? On education,

polarised. You've had the Michael department. This weekend, we've

polarised. You've had the Michael leaked memos from one of Michael

Gove's advisers which are extreme views about the state of education.

And on the other side teaching unions. It hasn't led to a healthy

debate which represents what parents want out of schools or employers.

This is a huge move from the Labour Party to sound more reasonable.

This is a huge move from the Labour have been silent on education which

is a huge policy area on the left. Is this a focus group-driven change?

They've seen the polls. Welfare reforms are hugery popular and free

only apiece the focus groups by changing the policy substantially. I

always thought a test for this Labour reshuffle was not whether Ed

Miliband would promote Blair rights, it is clear he did, it is whether

they would be allowed to be Blair rights. When Stephen Twigg carried

the education portfolio it was clear his own views were closer to the

Government than he was allowed to let on. He was constrained. There is

no point of giving Tristram Hunt this job if he is not allowed to say

what he thinks. I wouldn't mind betting privately he thinks free

schools should be available beyond just areas of need. He hasn't yet

defined need. It could be, we've run schools are so bad we need schools.

If that is it, it is the same Asics itsing Government policy. In they

unsatisfactory that's no different. He wanted to say he was in favour of

higher educational standards and rigour, he had to tell the audience

he has a Cambridge PhD to attack Michael Gove. That was difficult for

Tristram Hunt he had to mention that. Is that worth something, a PhD

from Cambridge? Obviously to him it is. He said they would demand proper

teaching qualifications. That could teaching? Independent schools do not

have to have teachers with formal teaching qualifications. I've never

been to one? What about you? That decision by Michael Gove to allow

free schools to employ nonunionised and non-trained people, so he has to

Watch this space. The dust settled after the party resufficients. Do

the Tories look a bit more like Britain. Do the Tories look more

#4 With reshuffles, you're never really certain. There's whispers,

rumours, guesses. But the only way to know it is underway is keeping

beady eyes on a front door. Up until now, the only way we knew who was in

and who was out was who came walking down this bit of Downing Street

and who was out was who came walking a smile on their face after going to

see the boss. The once who are to be sacked, they usually go round the

back. Not this time. No, something new alerted us all. The-PM started

can't remember a triple decker reshuffle where you've three parties

changing ministerial teams at the resufficient happened on Twitter.

Not that the press stopped watching the door as well. News was a bit

Charmichael replaced Michael Moore, the first to be pounced on. I'm

disappointed to be leaving office now but pleased at what I've been

able to achieve in the last couple of years. Not as pleased as one

imagines as the man receiving the welcome that went on, and on and

simultaneously having Jeremy Browne, in a sense seen off the premises of

the Home Office in conspiracy to let # Blowing hi Jude through a traffic

Democrats. We tend to think they are herbivorous. Sacking a Cabinet

Minister, another minister, Jeremy Browne. By lunch time, the Tory

ranks were shifting too. The PM Browne. By lunch time, the Tory

to boost the numbers of telegenic women walking into Government and

turning perceptions around. He tipped a so-called flatcap to men

backgrounds with room for some which fitted neither label but are friends

of George Osborne. And, all the while, those new Tory ministers

of George Osborne. And, all the learning of Labour's changes. Labour

too knows the value of new young blood striding into the limelight.

Again some with TV experience of that. Tristram Hunt and Gloria de

peer row would be hard to describe as hard left. But Blairbrushing

peer row would be hard to describe past out of the picture seemed to be

the name of the day. Liam Byrne With Diane Abbott also gone, was

this really a Blair right cull? It depends what you mean. Blair right

used to mean someone who wanted depends what you mean. Blair right

Blair to be leader of the Labour Party. Somebody who worked closely

with him. Now it means sometimes people who believe in a certain

with him. Now it means sometimes of ideologyies or ideas. There are

still very much those kind of Blair rights within the party. But we

still very much those kind of Blair seeing the group around Tony Blair

are not long assassin flew enjoys as they once were. By evening, it was

over. New bees were sharing the ministers quietly thanked commits

raters. Or -- commiserators. Or ministers quietly thanked commits

disified. How much much someone standing here might want it to be

the case, you are unlikely to get someone coming out of that do going

"how could." And running off crying! And the brand, spanking new Scottish

Secretary Alastair Charmichael joins us from Orkney on a line that hasn't

been used since the fleet was used in the outbreak of World War I! I

wasn't around at the time. I'm hearing you loud and clear. Why

wasn't around at the time. I'm you agreed to run a department?

wasn't around at the time. I'm you wanted to abolish six years

wasn't around at the time. I'm Hello? Maybe our connections are not

Charmichael. Can you hear me? I Hello? Maybe our connections are not

hear you now. There was a nasty second there where you disappeared.

Let me try the question again. Why have you agreed to run a department

you wanted to abolish six years have you agreed to run a department

Because this is the, probably one of the most important jobs in British

politics at the moment. To ensure that Scotland remains part of the

UK. Even when I was talking about the reconfiguration of rep sen Taigs

of Scotland -- representation of Scotland within Whitehall, there was

always a job to be done. That is true in spades now. I will focus on

making sure the UK Government has a real voice in that debate. What

making sure the UK Government has a you that Michael Moore didn't have?

Look, I think Michael Moore did you that Michael Moore didn't have?

excellent job. The work he did delivering the Edinburgh agreement

clear legal and decisive referendum, the work delivering extra powers to

substantial piece of work. I'm not friend of mine. I will say that

substantial piece of work. I'm not we go forward into this, this is now

about the actual debate itself. we go forward into this, this is now

will be putting the case, with some passion, I hope, for Scotland to

just some abstract debate about nationhood, sovereignty, this is a

their livelihoods, the cost of their mortgage. That and an awful lot

challenge. I understand that. But if you're being put in there to save

the union, every pole has the no -- poll has the no campaign margin

alley ahead. Mr Moore was doing pretty well to save the union. I

suspect you've been given the job to Scotland? And lieu, you misread

suspect you've been given the job to situation if you -- Andrew, you

misread the situation new think anybody is going to be the person

who will save the union. The people who will save the union are the

people of Scotland if they turn who will save the union are the

next year and vote to save the union. We have to put the case for

that. That is what I will be doing. Look at the position of your own

party. You came fourth in the last Scottish parentry elections. You

were even behind the Conservatives. The latest poll has you still in

fourth. Are you there because you're a bruiser and you will pep up the

Liberal Democrats opportunity in Scotland. If I had a pound for

everybody to referred to me as being Scotland. If I had a pound for

a bruiser, I wouldn't need to be sitting here this morning. I could

have retired by now. The truth of this, if I can address it once and

for all, I have done probably one of the most complex and subtle jobs in

three-and-a-half years, Liberal Democrat Chief Whip in a Coalition

survived in that job a week, let alone three-and-a-half years, if I

was the sort of person who went around picking unnecessary fights.

So, can we just please forget about this business about being a bruiser.

As far as the position of the party in the polls, this is true also

As far as the position of the party the referendum vote, opinion polls

are a snapshot. They are not a prediction of what will happen in

the future. I will be out there putting the case. Neither the next

election nor the referendum is one or lost yet. One of the things I

really want to be guarding against because we are a good margin ahead

today, 12 months out from the actual polling day, that it is in the bag.

Believe me, Andrew, it is not. As you know, wasn't for the Liberal

Democrats. Not just talking about the polls. You came fourth in the

You said you were happy to facial ex-Salmond in a TV debade. Should

David Cameron face him? I am happy debate. Should David Cameron face

him? No, because that allows Alex Nationalists to portray this as

him? No, because that allows Alex sort of contest or choice between a

vision of Scottish social democracy and English conservativism, which it

is not. This is a debate that has to is not. This is a debate that has to

be held in Scotland about the future of Scotland amongst Scots. David

Cameron has a very important part in Scotland's public life, but he is

not Scottish and I think he will accept Commies edit himself in fact,

the person who should be debating Darling. He has got a Scottish name

wealthiest of Scotland at some stage in the past. Anyway, you described

the campaign to keep the union together as lacking passion, were

you referring to the campaign or referring to Alistair Darling. I

think what I was saying is that referring to Alistair Darling. I

we move into this new stage, and Alistair Darling said it himself, we

are now campaigning for people Alistair Darling said it himself, we

hearts because if you look at the range of papers the Government has

published, it is pretty clear the arguments lie in relation to the

head. I am not giving up the battle for the hearts and Scotland because

there is a good strong case, as somebody who is proud to be Scottish

and to be British, for Scotland somebody who is proud to be Scottish

remain part of the UK. You come somebody who is proud to be Scottish

distilleries and I understand you celebratory drink for your new post.

Not a drop has touched my lips. celebratory drink for your new post.

supporting local business! I will be making up for lost time on the

supporting local business! I will be of November, I will be doing it

supporting local business! I will be aid of Macmillan Cancer care and if

website, they can donate. It is worthwhile. I cannot think of a

better cause. One Cabinet minister who many thought might get Reef

better cause. One Cabinet minister Clarke. Welcome to Sunday Politics.

minorities, where did you fit in? I minorities, where did you fit in? I

would describe myself as the elder statesman, to be polite, but it

would describe myself as the elder difficult to replace them. I enjoy

it. It is a great privilege to have a role in Cabinet and I will carry

on as long as David wants me to a role in Cabinet and I will carry

I have seen many reshuffles, they are dreadful and I seem to have

survived them so far. Did David Cameron talk to you before this

reshuffle? No, he didn't. I would have had expected a phone call,

asking, how do you think about stepping down, but he didn't and my

role is one of giving my wit and wisdom to the Cabinet and meetings

of the Security Council so he has got to put up with me a bit longer.

You said you are going to stand again at the next election, why

You said you are going to stand you keep going? What do you hope to

achieve in politics? I am mostly a political anorak, I have been since

I was very small, by the process of politics but the older I get I get

governance of the country and at the moment the combination of problems

is quite appalling. The difficulty of tackling the modern world is

is quite appalling. The difficulty difficult and I find it fascinating.

The old argument that attracts every decent person into politics, you

might be able sometimes to make decent person into politics, you

bit of difference, and I try to decent person into politics, you

that. I try not to hark back on decent person into politics, you

experience but we will have a lot of tough problems which I think the

Conservative Government will have to tackle. You opposed referenda on

Maastricht, the Lisbon Treaty, you were even against one on Britain

adopting the euro. It must follow that you are against the referenda

on Britain's membership to the EU? I accountable to the long-term and

representatives, but this is a minority now and my colleagues have

firmly decided a referendum needs to be held to settle the question of

Britain's relationship with the European Union which I think is

Britain's relationship with the of the most important things in

Britain's place in the modern world politicians are able to look after

the living standards, the economy, the safety against terrorism. Last

the living standards, the economy, summer you said that only extreme

nationalists wanted a silly EU referendum. It follows your party

must be full of extremely silly nationalists. The people who are

desperate to have a referendum are all the people who actually want to

referendum will involve the public and people like me have got to get

across to the public, don't just feel angry about the last thing

across to the public, don't just read in the newspaper about what the

commission is or is not doing, do commission is or is not doing, do

bear in mind this is our base in the modern world. We happen to be a

leading member, almost as valuable and rich as the Americans, from

influence in events. That is not just how the politicians get on

influence in events. That is not politicians look after us when we

spilling over from the Middle East, or we face public services being

threatened. You didn't even turn up to vote for the bill which will

threatened. You didn't even turn up engagements on the Friday concerned.

It seemed to get through without my participation. You didn't want to be

seen voting for something your heart Look, many of your colleagues I

seen voting for something your heart interviewed say that if the choice

was between the state -- the status quo with the European Union and

leaving, they would leave. The truth is that you would vote to stay in

even on the status quo, wouldn't supporting the EU to leave now if I

got chance. I think our economy supporting the EU to leave now if I

investment, as in Washington last been if we were outside the EU.

investment, as in Washington last week. We are trying to roll forward

the prospect of free trade and I have to reassure Americans that

the prospect of free trade and I are not likely to leave the EU to

That is true but it also needs reform. The cry for reform, which is

particularly Germany, is a good reform. The cry for reform, which is

Even if David Cameron came back reform. The cry for reform, which is

nothing from Brussels, you would still vote to stay in, correct?

one which is dwindling in comparison with others, in the modern world it

would be dangerous. I also think the dangers of the Middle East and the

dangers of some of the countries disengage. I will take that as a

strengthen the case, and of some members of the public don't agree

persuaded when David delivers his reforms. The latest poll gives

Labour a ten point lead over the Tories and the reason why it has a

ten point lead is because UKIP are up there with 18% of the vote and

ten point lead is because UKIP are the Tory vote has slumped in the

Paul to 27%. How would you see off UKIP? By saying you need a strong

Paul to 27%. How would you see off and effective Government. We faced

terrible problems. Every Government I have been in has been behind in

the polls. This Government is not as popular as the previous Government I

have served in under the three previous prime ministers. When you

get an election, people have to previous prime ministers. When you

themselves who do we want to decide the issues of war and peace in this

country? Who do we want to get us out of our economic problems. I

don't think Ed Miliband is up to it. That generalised stuff will not

don't think Ed Miliband is up to it. off UKIP. People will not listen to

that. When people answer an opinion poll, they tell you how annoyed

that. When people answer an opinion are by something that has recently

upset them, but people are more sensible than this. Every Government

I have served in has been behind in the polls. At a general election you

have to mobilise the public to start thinking, who do we want to govern

us? They did take over a calamitous important problems to be decided

going forward. UKIP represents anti-immigration, anti-foreigners,

anti-Europe, anti-politics but I don't think it will get 18% of the

Thank you. Once upon a time, a politician whose career ended in

disgrace might choose to lie low for a while, perhaps to spend a bit

disgrace might choose to lie low for time tending the tulips and doing

the odd bit of charity work. Not Chris Huhne. He walked free from

prison only five months ago but Chris Huhne. He walked free from

former Energy Secretary is already back in the public eye - a column in

the Guardian, a job with a renewable interview. So is he working on a

political rehabilitation? Chris Politics. The answer to that is

clearly know, and thank you for inviting me back. You have set your

career in politics is over so what does the future hold for you? I

career in politics is over so what happy doing what I am doing, I am

passionate about green energy and climate change, so I am doing things

on that front in terms of business non-governmental organisations,

on that front in terms of business I am doing a column for the Guardian

on Mondays. You obviously get a I am doing a column for the Guardian

of material from the Sunday Politics to write about. Have you embarked on

political rehabilitation? It was clear from the point of view of

political rehabilitation? It was George when I was sentenced, he

rehabilitating you, because I had not offended for ten years, it was

actually about stopping people like you, Andrew, Ron doing the same

thing. It was a deterrent effect for the public. That is I think why

thing. It was a deterrent effect for prosecution was brought. I had not

offended for ten years on this, rehabilitate yourself in the public?

coalition to the bitter end? Or should they re-establish their own

identity? My view is that the Coalition agreement is for the whole

Parliament, and the Lib Dems are going to stay, and should stay. What

would be a good result for the Lib Dems in 2015? The loss of ten, 15

seats? I think it will be an interesting election because I think

you will have essentially three party leaders, all of whom are

unpopular. It is almost unprecedented that they have

negative ratings so it will be a battle between the walking wounded.

In those circumstances, in my view, the Lib Dems can come out very

well. But you will lose seats, won't you? It is far too early to say. If

the Liberal Democrats do badly in next year's European elections, you

could come fourth on fifth behind the Greens. Will Nick Clegg's

leadership be in jeopardy? I've been in countless cycles where we've had

very low poll ratings. The normal pickup to the subsequent general

election on average has been 10 percentage points. So he's not in

jeopardy? I think Nick will be there at the next general election. I

think he'll lead the party into the next general election. I expect

we'll do much better than most people think. If we are heading for

another hung Parliament, which is what the Liberal Democrats want.

Let's be honest, you'd rather be in coalition with the Labour Party than

have a repeat of the Conservatives? One of the key things I sawed to

colleagues, whatever your personal preference, I used to be a Labour

Party member, you can derive from that I'm on the left of centre of

the party. I always said to my colleagues in the party, it is

absolutely colleagues in the party, it is

the we are in politics because we are Liberal Democrats, not because

we are either Conservatives or second best Labour. If you don't

take that view, you don't have any bargaining position when it comes to

coalition. You have to be able, genuinely, to do a coalition with

either of the other parties. I understand that, but you'd prefer

Labour? Your personal preference really should not come into this. It

is about making sure you get the best possible deal for the things

that your voters have voted for. If you get that with one party rather

than another, that's fine. You stand up for Liberal Democrat values, not

for Conservative or Labour second best values. You said you're keeping

up your interest in energy matters. Is Ed Miliband right to promise a

temporary price freeze? There's been pop ewe louse posturing. It is not a

sensible policy. It was tried in California in 2,000 and 2001 which

led to blackouts. We had the Prime Minister promising we should sift

everybody automatically to the lowest possible tariff. So

unfortunately we're at the stage in the political cycle where we are

getting clap trap. You're against the freeze? It is a bad idea when we

are trying to encourage investment. When the market can give us some of

the lowest gas and electricity prices in Europe. Britain has

son-in-law of the lowest? Not our base price? The other European Ian

prices are only higher because they put a lot more taxes on to it? Our

base energy prices are among the highest in Europe? No, if you look

at EU comparisons in what goes out to people's households. That's after

all the taxes have been put on them? to people's households. That's after

. The Conservatives are claiming there are

next for the badger cull ? The Government acknowledges the plant is

not going according to plan. The badgers have moved the goalposts.

And for the next 20 minutes I am joined by the Plymouth Conservative

MP Oliver Colvile and label a councillor Kate Wheller from Dorset.

This week we look at potholes. Potholes figures obtained by us show

nearly 2000 people have made claims for damage caused I potholes in the

last year. In death and there were 8000 claims and the regional cost

runs into tens of thousands of pounds. This is something I know you

feel strongly about, Oliver, and to prove it, we have a photo of you

with your friend from the highways authority assessing one particular

example. One in ten drivers has now told the AA they have had an

accident or damaged their car because of a pothole and now they

can claim. The Chancellor announced there would be more money given to

local authorities, and I have been campaigning with pothole Peter of

the Herald and it has been a great success. I want people to e—mail me

and tell me where potholes are and I will write to the council. So you

blame the council, not the Government? The money is there but

the councils are not using it? The local authorities can bid for money

from the gunmen to get this sorted out but we need to do this. —— can

bid for money from the Government. I am worried that in six months it

will be back to square one and what we really should be doing is

resurfacing all those roads. There is money for that? There is not. You

what working with Dorset council. Is this something that can be repaired

more quickly, could councils be asking for more money? We are asking

for money but whether it comes or not is another matter. But is it

that we are able to fix these potholes? Why are we not doing it?

Funding. Oliver says there is money for this. The Department for

Transport spokesman said we have recently announced £12 billion for

road maintenance and that would prepare about 90 million potholes.

So they are claiming there is enough money. And I would argue we would

have as much as we can implement but it will have to be spread through

the country. OK. We have to move on. Pothole repair is of course just one

of many demands on council budgets. We have talked a lot lately about

warnings those budgets are about to reach breaking point especially in

the countryside. Rowell MPs say there councils only get half the

Government funding given to open ones. —— rural MPs. They took it to

Government a game and once again the Government failed to be convinced by

their argument. And once again, they failed to give up. We will mobilise

the rural yeomanry to make sure we get our fair share of funding. What

we are asking for is one tenth of 1% of the total budget to be shifted

towards the rural macro authorities. His that too much to ask of this

Government? I certainly do not think it is. In a moment we will discuss

what the funding row might mean for everything from social workers to

buses but does this report. —— at first this report.

It is tough keeping services going with less money. In West Somerset

the council is losing £100,000 a year and is facing bankruptcy. It is

simply that per head of population of West Somerset, we are not getting

enough income to run the services that the people deserve. There have

been fears other authorities could be heading in the same direction.

These small district and borough councils are facing a serious

threat. And I urge the ministers to take it as seriously as it deserves.

But there's little sympathy at the top. Three years ago, there were

predictions of the end of local government as we knew it, of end of

services. That has proved to be complete tosh. Torbay Council could

have to cut an estimated £20 million from its spending over the next two

years. In the past, the mayor suggested merging with other

councils in Devon to form one large super—authority to save money. This

week it has been reported that the mayor is so concerned about the

financial situation here that he has asked the leader of Devon County

Council to take Torbay Council over. But rural councils think it is even

tougher for them, arguing it costs more to deliver services across

large areas with small populations, and after a long—running campaign

for a fairer share of the funding cake, the region's MPs began to feel

like their concerns were being listened to. Is the minister

confirming to MPs representing rural areas is that he is open for further

discussion about the perceived disparity between rural and urban

funding? Because I would want to hear from him a clarification that

he is up for such discussions if he is inviting me to join him in the

voting lobbies this evening. As I said in the debate on Monday, I have

an open door policy. I am happy to continue that discussion. But during

the conference season, these hopes seem to be dashed. Local councils in

rural areas say they are being short—changed compared to urban

areas, and vice versa. We cannot magic money which is not there. As

Liam Byrne famously said to David Laws, there is no money left. I

think we have been fair between urban areas and rural areas but of

course all local councils are having to do more. A lot of your MPs think

you are listening and think you might actually consider reforming

that funding system. So they will be disappointed, then? We have made

changes to the funding system. To be fair, Government MPs have been

saying you have broadened the divide, it has got worse. I do not

accept that. Often city areas are more dependent on grant than on

council tax. Grant necessarily has been reduced. Politicians in the

South West are refusing to give up but with a BBC poll this week

suggesting 40% of people have not noticed the budget cuts it could be

even harder for the rural funding campaigners to win their argument.

Joining us to discuss this we have representatives of town and country.

In London we have Andrew Carter from Centre for Cities and in the studio

Dan Bates from the Rural Services Network. Welcome. Dan, Eric Pickles,

the Secretary of State for local governments, said so far none of the

figures he has heard of Canon convince him that rural areas need

more money. He says these arguments have proved to be complete tosh. If

you take the figures for 2013—14, you find that 50% gap is what there

is between rural and urban areas. There is half as much funding a game

for every person in an urban area than in a rural area. That

translates into rural residents paying more per head in council tax

to get less services. So if you are in rural macro person you pay £85

more to get less services, because of the disparity. So where you

live. Andrew, but does not sound fair. £85 per head more in rural

areas and yet you get less services? Much of the money goes on

a needs basis. In our urban areas the need is that much greater, so

therefore they get more money because the need... The need for

what is greater? What sort of things? If you look at the areas

with the highest rates of deprivation across a number of

issues, 80% of those neighbourhoods, the worst neighbourhoods in the UK,

are in our urban areas. They have multiple needs. What sort of needs?

Clearly up graffiti... ? We are addressing issues around

unemployment, low incomes, poorer services, crime on those sort of

social issues. That is where the money from Government is allocated.

Andrew, I will just that to Dan. Do you accept that argument is that

they do need more money? I agree urban areas have conflict issues but

do they need 50% more per head in funding? The other point we make is

about the cost of providing those services. Your first article was on

potholes. If you can imagine potholes in areas as expansive as

Devon, compared with Plymouth, the cost of repairing those potholes in

Devon would be that much more, yet they are getting 50% less per head

than the urban areas in funding and that is not fair. Dan says it is not

fair. I am talking about my own constituency but the big Robin has

been inheriting this awful deficit which we are trying to sort out.

# Deficit. Local authorities need to be talking to one another and maybe

the health service as well and the police, about how they can actually

share common backroom staff as well, for instance, for things like

human resources and things like that. Secondly, I do think there is

a role for the Government to review what they are asking local

authorities to do. I want to make sure the money will be spent on my

potholes, doing the drains, those kind of things. Is unsatisfied? ——

is Dan Bates satisfied? Not really. If you start from a base that is 50%

lower per head and the cuts that are coming are pretty big, the

Government has said we will make equal cuts now so those rural

authorities starting on a lower base are taking more cuts. So you think

that will hit rural areas harder? It is that much harder in rural areas.

Kate, 40% of people, according to a BBC poll, said they have not

actually noticed any cuts to services and some people think

council services have actually improved. In which case the

Government is right, isn't it? They can make these cuts and people have

not noticed. That is a testament to how hard the local councils have

been working. It has nothing to do with the swingeing cuts that the

Government are continuing to impose upon us. And this idea that this is

all the cause of the previous Government, people are not stupid.

He pulled now what caused the recession. What caused the recession

was the greed of bankers, and the Scotmid have done nothing to address

that situation at all. —— the Government. Ordinary people are

paying for that now. Services they need just not going to be provided.

They cannot be provided on less and less money. Do you think there are

too many votes in the cities, that we are trying to target city

voters? Is that what is happening here? I do not think so. The

politics is more diverse. I would like to come back to this point.

This issue about scale and size. You talked about some of the smaller

rural councils but clearly the issue is that some of these councils are

quite small. If you go to urban districts, some smaller ones, they

are suffering and struggling with exactly the same issues. So should

all councils be bigger, so you can book by and... ? Possibly. I do not

know whether we are saying they should all be bigger but what we

have seen in different parts of the country, urban to urban, rural to

rural, councils coming together to think about how they can deliver

more effectively. Refit, Oliver, have you any sympathy for York

colleagues like Neil Parish and Geoffrey Cox, they feel so

passionate about this and yet all the mud are not listening to them? I

have enormous sympathy but there are local authorities, certainly in

London, where they have been able not only to make those reductions

but also to cut the council tax, and that is something that is very

important. Labour is talking all the time about the cost of living and we

need to talk about keeping the council tax down. Thank you.

This week, the Government revealed its trial badger cull in West

Somerset did not meet the target for the number of badges its own

scientists say needed to be killed for the chance of tackling the

disease in cattle. Welfare groups say the Cole has failed to meet any

of its aims but ministers insist they are happy with the way the

trial was carried out. At the end of August, protesters

were angry as the six—week badger cull kicked off in West Somerset but

halfway through, unbeknown to us, alarm bells started to ring. One

former DEFRA worker from Cornwall was called up out of the blue and

asked to provide ten more shooters. Clearly the focal was an act of

desperation. If were going well, why did they phone? —— the phone call

was an act of desperation. It is under resourced. The resources

needed were immense. The Government set article 70% of badges in West

Somerset during the six—week trial. —— set out to kill. In fact, they

have only killed 59%. So why is 70% the magic number? Many experts

believe killing a high number of badges over 70% is crucial because

the trial showed that a low kill rate will actually increase TB

infection in cattle, as fleeing badgers can widely spread the

disease. 850 badgers have so far been shot, at a revised estimate of

1450 but originally, DEFRA have all there were 2400 badgers in the West

Somerset area. It would be unusual for badger populations to change to

such a degree. There are concerns that there has been interference.

Interference with the methods used to count badgers, which could help

to explain the difference between the estimates for now and last

October. It is embarrassing for the Government. Earlier this week on BBC

Sport light, the environment secretary loaned the badgers. The

badgers have moved the goalposts. You are dealing with a wild animal.

Those naughty badgers! They are playing with numbers. It appears

this year the numbers of badgers are too low. Last year the Government

said there were too many. The plug was pulled just before the 2012

badger cull. Do you remember all the fuss last year? The controversial

cull of badgers has been called off... And does this sound

familiar? There was some doubt about whether enough badgers could be

killed in the pilot areas before December. The companies set up to go

ahead with the badger cull had doubts they would be able to

eradicate 70% in the necessary time. Those badgers, they are at it again.

Some MPs said the Government may have made a mistake facing so much

emphasis on numbers. It will always be difficult to estimate wild

animals as to how many are there but what I will repeat, and what I will

die in a ditch over, is that these badgers are diseased and giving

these diseases to the cattle. A farm in Devon. Some of the cattle here

have had TB in the past. DEFRA said last year 38,000 cattle were killed

in Britain. The company running the badger cull has just been granted a

three—week exception. —— extension. The farmer here hope is that he can

have clean badgers and cattle living side—by—side.

Was Owen Paterson right to say that the badgers have moved the

goalposts? Be surprised that wild animals do not do as they're told is

amazing, isn't it? I am in support of anything that is helping the

British farming industry but this badger cull has been so badly

managed. It has been based on inaccurate data. How on earth can

they expect meaningful results from something that is just farcical? So

Owen Paterson calling it a success too would disagree with? Yes. Has

this been a success? It is a difficult story. I am told that the

lungs of badgers come like sponge. It is incredibly painful. So to

identify badgers that are ill to kill them is very difficult. Why

don't you vaccinate? It takes a long time and you have to do it on an

annual basis so you have to catch them time and time again. The

problem is, do we want to make sure that our cattle is not going to be

diseased with TB? Are you going to eat a steak which has got TB in it?

Lets move back to Owen Paterson calling this a success. The thing

is, you have not killed as many badgers as you set out to do. You

underestimated the number of badgers in the first place. Now you are

having to extend the badger cull. How is that a success? We have

actually made quite a lot of mad of progress on it.

# Quite a lot of progress. We are going to make sure it does not

continue to spread. How on earth will you manage to roll this out

across other areas of the country when you could not make a success of

this tiny controlled area? It does not bode well, does it, for a

nationwide project? When you cannot cope with a tiny area. It is a very

difficult area in which to actually deal with because we are very rural.

Are you surprised that badgers are in a oral area? ! Not at all. ——

rural area. We need to see what has happened during the course of the

pilot scheme. I would love to share your confidence in this. It is

interesting that with the increase in badgers we have seen a deep

crease in hedgehogs. —— at the crease. Unfortunately we have

reached the end of that segment. It is time for a regular round—up of

the political week in 60 Seconds. A bitter row erupted over plans for

1500 homes on the outskirts of Truro, the city council stepping up

its efforts to block them. We want to see affordable housing in Truro,

investment, not on greenfields. Taunton MP Jeremy Brown lost his job

as Home Office minister, with MPs Dan Rogerson and George Eustace both

getting jobs at DEFRA. So Cornwall now has two Government MPs.

Questions about nuclear safety at Devonport were raised by Alison

Seabeck, who held onto her job as Shadow Defence Minister. What we

need to understand now is why the processes went wrong, what the MoD

have done to ensure that further failsafes are in place.

Plymouth Council has threatened to begin charging for evening parking

on the city's streets. Teignbridge councillors pulled the

plug on funding 17 public loos. I am completely mystified as to why this

decision was taken. Let's look at the issue of parking.

Plymouth to introduce evening parking charges. It is tempting for

cash—strapped councils to start increasing parking charges. Is this

happening in Dorset? I can only speak for Weymouth and Portland. We

are about to remove overnight parking charges. Would you like to

see them follow suit in Plymouth? Absolutely. A lot of people come to

the city centre to use the theatre and pubs. We need to make sure

people are encouraged to come here. You cannot have it with ways. It is

an issue to get people to come and use the city centre, deduce all the

facilities we have. I have to stop you because sadly that is the Sunday

Politics in the South West. Thank you to my guests, Oliver and Kate.

The programme is you to my guests, Oliver and Kate.

and these tactics were plain wrong. That is all we have time for. Back

ministerial team this week with That is all we have time for. Back

commentators calling it the purge of the Blairites, but one poor lamb who

fell victim to this perch was Diane Abbott, not somebody who worshipped

at the altar of Tony Blair. Life on the backbenches means she can pursue

other interests such as attending the Cheltenham literary Festival,

and where she joins us now. Welcome. Why did Ed Miliband fire you? He

think the thing that did it for Why did Ed Miliband fire you? He

was me coming out on Syria. This was Why did Ed Miliband fire you? He

a purge of the Blairites, how did you become collateral damage? I

a purge of the Blairites, how did no idea but the fact that I was

a purge of the Blairites, how did one member of the front bench to go

public about my concerns on Syria probably tipped my enemies in the

party machinery over the edge. But he went your way on Syria, in the

end he agreed with your line on Syria so why would that be for

dismissal? I agree with you - you're fired. Because I actually spoke

dismissal? I agree with you - you're and it was the fact that I spoke up,

which was like a pebble falling and it was the fact that I spoke up,

forest or something. I am glad I spoke up on Syria. He doesn't like

people around them than who are outspoken, who speak their minds? I

think he's convinced he needs people who read from the scripts. People

increasingly upset that even though who read from the scripts. People

I was speaking party policy, I was reading from the script. Since Mr

Miliband bid you farewell, you've said he's doing his best. Is his

best good enough? I am sure it will be. I've always said the Labour

Party chose the right Miliband. be. I've always said the Labour

will remain loyal to him on the backbenches. You're going to be

loyal? However, I want to join in the debate. You're going to be

loyal? Absolutely. I was loyal both in public and private when others

were bitching about him behind the from the backbenches, I hope to

were bitching about him behind the involved in the debate particularly

around nick policy. Et's see how loyal you are. You must be happy

with all this new tough talk on welfare and free schools? Well,

with all this new tough talk on think both Rachel and Tristram are

very talented. We're going to have to see how this all plays out. The

issue of free schools, they are to see how this all plays out. The

thing. But diminishing the role to see how this all plays out. The

local authorities is another. There need strong local authorities. I'm

local authorities is another. There sure Tristram will be aware of that.

As for welfare, I'm sure Rachel knows some of the cuts the Tories

have made have been counter prod ublingtive in -- productive in terms

of spending. You wouldn't call that your full-hearted endorsement, would

you? What are you on, and lieu? your full-hearted endorsement, would

haven't seen the detail of Rachel's new position. You have to wait and

see the detail. It is in the papers. You haven't stopped reading the

papers. It was the Observer. When will you announce you're running for

Mayor of London? I have no plans to announce that I'm running for Mayor

Mayor of London? I have no plans to of London. No plans. That's what

Michael his I will Tyne used to of London. No plans. That's what

me. He had no plans to run against Margaret Thatcher. Are these the

same kind of plans you have? I know. No, no. I have no plans. You know

going for it. Everybody knows you're going for it. Just fess up to your

old mate! ! I have no plans to run. If you did run, who would be, what

would be your biggest threat other than yourself? I think there's a lot

of very talented candidates, David They are all talented. I would have

to weigh up the field. What do you think your chances would be of

getting the taxi drivers' vote? Well, you know, Andrew, some of

getting the taxi drivers' vote? most loyal viewers of This Week

getting the taxi drivers' vote? were taxi drivers and their wives.

I'm not frightened of reaching out to middle England. You will find if

you walk around London sub usual ya, they all know me and they all love

This Week. Love This Week. I thought you were going to say they all love

you. One person who loves you, is Michael Portillo. He wasn't a happy

chappie on Thursday night. You can't see it but you can hear. This is

what he said. I was disappointed for her. She had decided to leave this

something else in politics. She wanted to do something serious.

something else in politics. She had taken what appeared to be a

something else in politics. She position but taken it extremely

serious and was committed to the issues. I'm quite disappointed for

her. Why would Ed Miliband do such a thing. You just mentioned about

London mayor, did Diane not ask thing. You just mentioned about

Someone who's an eminent person thing. You just mentioned about

this programme, I don't know how he could do that. I think Michael's

missing you. Are you free this Thursday night? Make him a happy

man, come back to the fold. I think I may be free this Thursday night.

So, if he'll have me, I'll be there. My people will speak to your people.

We'll get it sorted out. Diane, watch that big vase behind you,

you're not insured for. That thanks Does she have a chance of being

Mayor of London? She's very well known as Michael pointed out. That

is important. People who are outside known as Michael pointed out. That

the party fold have traditionally done well in the mayoral election.

The job of being a London mayor done well in the mayoral election.

running an economy the size of a nation. It is a very serious job.

There may be problems with her running? That was a transparent

There may be problems with her for it. She's potentially a very

compelling Coll ticks. People have left-winger but she's quite tough

and conservative. Michael Gove said he had fallen in love with Diane

which That's one vote he has. What do you think? I thing about Diane

Abbott is she has a fantastic way of connecting. She has a really good

way of connecting wi people. She would be a very strong candidate in

candidate. It will probably be a Labour win next time. Depends, if

Labour wins the 2015 election it may be more difficult. There's a danger

for Labour that Diane is the big personality liked by the party

primary but isn't necessarily a personality liked by the party

in come the London general election? That's true. London is traditionally

a Labour city. But Boris managed to win as an outsider. There are big

dangers for Labour with that. I think, as I said before, somebody

who seems a bit independent from their own party machinery tend to do

We've only had mayors so far that were independent? Indeed. And how

Not that far behind bar Is Johnson. well Ken Livingstone did last time.

Not that far behind bar Is Johnson. He was and is much more left-wing

than Diane Abbott. Diane didn't He was and is much more left-wing

stray on Syria, it was immigration. Why was Jeremy brown replaced by

This is very much to do with Clegg deciding he has to go back to those

people who abandoned the Liberal Democrats the day they went into

coalition with the Conservatives really, and convince them there

coalition with the Conservatives some holy areas of policy, sacred

areas which they will defend. That includes civil liberties. In the

Home Office, that incident with includes civil liberties. In the

immigration vans went down very badly across the whole nation. Went

down particularly badly with Liberal Democrats and voters. In the Home

somebody there to put a shield on purpose behind it. And Nick Clegg

has won the argument against the left, Vince Cable on the economy,

away day in July, briefings say DrCable's been put in his box. He's

won the argument on economic policy against the left. When it comes

won the argument on economic policy the touchstone issue in the Home

Office, he wants to shore up that vote on the left. And please The

Guardian. This is important for something else going on which is

that Nick Clegg has to keep his parliamentary party happy. That

involves giving them ministerial jobs. A lot of Liberal Democrats

losing their jobs, Michael Moore, because vacancies have to be created

for number people to come in. By Liberal Democrat MPs will have been

on the payroll. It is effective party management. I want to move on

to press regulation. Brian Leveson's famous report, appeared before the

parliamentary select committee. famous report, appeared before the

will run you a clip from Connor politicians got involved in this. We

moved away from the press 300 years ago. The centr commitment is Lord

Leveson wanted a system the press self-regulation. This is state

involvement which I worry about profoundly. He sits on the media

interviews and investigations into the media. Chris Huhne said earlier

he thought all the newspapers would sign up to the Government-backed

Royal Charter. I think he's totally should. But he did say they would. I

think he's wrong. They won't sign up. All the mood music when that

Royal Charter was agreed on Friday was they would not sign up. It is

Maria Miller, is essentially saying to the press industry, if you don't

sign up, the Royal charter will to the press industry, if you don't

ahead. I cannot control the Labour to the press industry, if you don't

industry is wind the clock back to the press industry, if you don't

what they are calling the Puttnam stage. That was earlier this year,

Lord Puttnam was tack amendments which would introduce statutory

regulation. Maria Miller says you statutory legislation but if you

don't sign up to this, it will be a lot worse. Will that work? Playing

the good cop, bad cop routine? Will that pressurise everyone to sign up.

Lots of people are saying this will be a club with no members. It won't

work. As Nick and I broke the story last week that the Government was

going to reject the newspaper-backed one, I'm certain that the newspapers

now, most of them maybe, not all, but most, will go the legal route

and to judicial review on what the Government's proposing and will

and to judicial review on what the it to strains Bowring where freedom

of the press is enshrined. They it to strains Bowring where freedom

fight this? There is enough fury amongst Fleet Street to result in

that. The big political question going forward is which of the party

leaders does the press blame the most for the emergence of press

regulation? The Tories are very confident they'll blame Ed Miliband

the most. They'll target him before 2015. David Cameron gave us Brian

Leveson. You appoint a judge who shouldn't be surprised with what you

got in the Leveson report? I big chunk of press will look at David

Cameron saying, you were the guy who intended what will happen. If he had

have appointed Brian Leveson. If they face more punitive fines over

Labour ale cases they take that they face more punitive fines over

Europe. The Daily Mail and the tallest presumably will have to

suspend their campaign of Britain to leave the European Convention of

suspend that. We must never come out Churchill was behind it. He was

indeed. But it is actually a major constitutional issue whether you

regulate the press or not. There was constitutional issue whether you

a lot of ill feeling that this Marie ya miller statement was snubbing out

on Friday afternoon. Somebody said freedom of the press too important

to sneak out on afully afternoon. The whole subject should be treated

with respect. We've run out of time. I'll be back next Sunday with the

Communities Secretary Eric Pickles at our usual time of 11.00am. If