06/10/2013 Sunday Politics South West


06/10/2013

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Morning, folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics. And in-out EU

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referendum before the general election? We talk to the Tory rebel

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demanding one next year, that is our top story. As government ministers

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prepare to decide how the press should be regulated, what will be

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the impact of this week's row should be regulated, what will be

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between the Daily Mail and Ed Miliband?

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You are talking about the colour of peoples faces?!

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In the South West: Concern government help for home

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buyers could push up house prices. And councils are told to stop using

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parking charges as a money spinner. He will try to force a vote in the

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October. Home Secretary Theresa He will try to force a vote in the

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was asked about his plans on the BBC earlier this morning. I think he has

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got it wrong, I think what we need to do is to negotiate the settlement

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with the European Union and then put that to the people me to decide

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whether to be in or out. Is this a flea bite or a real threat? I think

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the next election, a Conservative Party that will be offering people

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that renegotiation, a new settlement with Europe, looking to the future

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and putting that to the British people in and in or out referendum.

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And what the amendment possibly could do, as James Wharton, who

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And what the amendment possibly putting the Referendum Bill through

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Parliament has said, is it could jeopardise that bill. Adam Afriyie

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joins us now from Millbank studio. Good morning. If the referendum

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would be held next October, it would have to be an in-out question based

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the status quo? There wouldn't be time for a full renegotiation. I

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disagree. By having a referendum in 2014, it gives us 12 months to

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renegotiate, but it kick-started negotiations, because the European

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Union, if they wish us to remain members, would need to accommodate

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and make changes so that they would members, would need to accommodate

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and make changes so that they would persuade the British public to stay,

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strengthens the Prime Minister's hand, and 12 months is ample time

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for that kind of negotiation. You might think that, but Germany has

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not even got a government at the moment, why should they meet our

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timetable? This is going to be incredibly, located renegotiation. I

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think, basically, 80% of people incredibly, located renegotiation. I

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a referendum. More than 50% what a election. British businesses need

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certainty, and we could carry on taking a scan down the road for

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ever, but I have struggled with taking a scan down the road for

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conscience over this one. I do not want to cause trouble, but it is

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essential that Parliament and MPs have the opportunity to search their

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souls and give people a referendum this side of the election. That

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would also bring certainty and clarity for the future, and like I

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said, it strengthens the Prime Minister's hand if it is successful.

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You right in the Mail on Sunday Minister's hand if it is successful.

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the people are not convinced there even will be a referendum, so they

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don't trust David Cameron? I think the headline was not the headline I

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wrote for that piece. What I am You are saying that the British

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people are not convinced. Look, there are too many uncertainties

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here - they may not be convinced the Conservatives will win the election,

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I hope we will, they may not be convinced the renegotiation will be

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good enough, that there will be convinced the renegotiation will be

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referendum. Do you trust David That is why we need to bring the

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referendum forward, there is time to negotiate, and we tidy up the issue

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that has been hanging around for too long. Do you trust David Cameron to

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deliver a referendum in 2017? I Minister, and of course I trust

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deliver a referendum in 2017? I referendum? There as only variables

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in between. What I am doing with referendum? There as only variables

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this amendment, is to try to be referendum? There as only variables

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is that Parliament and every MP referendum? There as only variables

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the opportunity decide whether they want to be sure of a referendum

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within this parliament, or maybe leave it to the vagaries of what may

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within this parliament, or maybe happen in 2015. Supposing you got

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your way, how would you vote? Like Michael Gove, I would vote for us to

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leave as of today, but there will be Michael Gove, I would vote for us to

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an enormous amount of pressure on European Union leaders to come

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forward with proposals. If they European Union leaders to come

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to say, the mandate is not ever closer political union, it is ever

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closer trading harmony, giving us closer trading harmony, giving us

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more border control and control closer trading harmony, giving us

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our legal system, I might change my mind. But this is what needs to

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happen - if we have a referendum in happen - if we have a referendum in

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negotiations to be kick-started happen - if we have a referendum in

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people to argue in or out, and the end result is a stronger Prime

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Minister. Is it true that you have end result is a stronger Prime

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Minister. Is it true that you have got about 80 MPs supporting this? It

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certain, and I think we will see it on hold over the next three or five

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weeks. He will have to ask each individual MP. I am asking you,

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is your motion! There will be other motions coming forward, and I know

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cross-party, for people who want the British public to have a say in

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2014. You know it is not going to get through, the whips will stop

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this from happening. One of the successes, apparently, of your

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party's Manchester conference was that you were not divided over

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Europe anymore, the Europe issue was settled. Here you are bringing it

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Europe anymore, the Europe issue was back to life and pouring petrol

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Europe anymore, the Europe issue was unlicensed troublemaker of the

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Tories? The only struggle I have had is not a fight with my party but

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Tories? The only struggle I have had with my conscience as to whether or

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not I would give Parliament and with my conscience as to whether or

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British people an opportunity to have a say in 2014. I wrestled with

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it, and I decided I wanted people to have that opportunity. It is for

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each individual MP to search their soul, speak to constituents and

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decide whether they want that. You decided it would get you in the

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headlines again. Oh, you are so cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition

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publicity seeker. All I seek is cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition

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would not be able to sleep at night if I did not bring forward this

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opportunity for Britain to have if I did not bring forward this

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say. We have left it far too long. Nobody under the age of 56 has had a

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say. Thanks for joining us, good luck with this continuing struggle

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with your conscience! I will move the seat around and addressed the

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panel, what do you make of it? The party managers must be furious with

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him. I think what this confirms party managers must be furious with

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that David Cameron is incredibly lucky in his enemies. His most

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prolific critics, Nadine Dorries, Peter Bone, Adam Afriyie, even if

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you are very anti-Cameron, you will not think, man, if only they were in

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charge of the party! I think the party managers are not too alarmed.

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They do not take him seriously? No, is not as if the James Wharton bill

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is a work of genius, it is riddled with flaws, anomalies and loopholes.

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It purports to guarantee that a referendum will take place in the

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next Parliament. My understanding of theoretically impossible and that

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all the future government would theoretically impossible and that

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is cancel out that bill with another bill. He does have a point that

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Cameron's plan for a referendum bill. He does have a point that

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nothing like as likely to happen... dangerous. The problem for David

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Cameron is twofold. One, if Ed Miliband says he's going to support

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Adam Afriyie, it will go through. Unlikely that Ed Miliband would

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Adam Afriyie, it will go through. that, but what he might do is say to

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his MPs, ignore this. It may well be significant number of Labour MPs do

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not turn up, and then what you have Conservative backbenchers, and in

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that war you might well find that through, and then the Prime Minister

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has real trouble, because Adam Afriyie says, the Prime Minister

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membership, up what basis and with which mandate? He would not be able

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to get agreement with Nick Clegg or Ed Miliband, so you would be looking

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think he is a Labour mole, that Ed Miliband, so you would be looking

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what I have come to, a Daily Mail style conspiracy theory, it could

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not be more perfect. The prospect of style conspiracy theory, it could

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a referendum on the EU at the same time as Scottish independence is

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has told us he could not sleep at conscience. We could send him some

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pills, I suppose. We know he's going to sack all those lieutenants were

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going around and saying he is the great future and the next leader of

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the Conservative Party. He denied doing that! He would be amazed to

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hear you say that, this is a crisis conversations in corridors, quite an

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operation to get letters into Graham Brady, he said to have letters,

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operation to get letters into Graham 46, but at the moment this campaign

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is being run by Lieutenant of Adam They are disaffected and not happy

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under David Cameron's leadership. There is a whole army of them! I am

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pleased he has outmanoeuvred the awkward squad, and now James Wharton

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is saying, you're going to kill awkward squad, and now James Wharton

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bill. I do not think they are very competence lieutenants. The main

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episode is it will unify a large Conservative Party behind David

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Cameron. On what they hope is a settled position. We still hope

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Cameron. On what they hope is a be talking to John Prescott, who is

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in hole, if you see him, pointing in the direction of the BBC studios! Do

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you want to buy a house? Can you afford the mortgage repayments but

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not the 20% or 30% deposit the mortgage provider is demanding from

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you? The Government says it has mortgage provider is demanding from

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scheme designed for you which is in launching next week, help to buy,

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re-emergence of 95% mortgages, remember them?! But is the policy

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really good for home-buyers or the British economy? Here is Giles.

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Never mind who lives in a house British economy? Here is Giles.

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this, who can afford to buy a house these days? The Government would

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this, who can afford to buy a house like many more people to be able to

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without putting down a crippling like many more people to be able to

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without putting down a crippling amount of money as a deposit, and in

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the spirit of rights to buy, the government has launched help to

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the spirit of rights to buy, the confusingly it is the name for two

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been running since April. Help to government are bringing it in early.

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Let's get in on the inside and take a good look around at what this

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scheme actually has to offer. And why the Government thinks it really

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works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity loan scheme. The idea, nice, is

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works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity it was for new build only, up to a

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value of £600,000. But it is Help to value of £600,000. But it is Help to

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Buy 2 that everyone is looking into right now. It is for any property up

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to a value, again, of £600,000. right now. It is for any property up

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time the Government is guaranteeing that it will take on the first

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losses should the home owner in that it will take on the first

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future failed to make their mortgage payments. Don't worry about that, if

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you are a buyer, you are going to be concerned about coming up with the

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5% deposit and 95% mortgages will be available again in participating

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banks and building societies. And a housing prime mover. You cannot

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get training to 5% mortgage anymore, 90% even, so there are couples in

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our country who have good jobs, decent incomes, they could afford

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the mortgage payments but they failure in our banking market. So

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Jonathan, but I guess for you this is not Homes Under The Hammer, but a

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main impact of this scheme will is not Homes Under The Hammer, but a

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to push up prices, who does that benefit? Mostly rich and all the

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people who own their houses. Plus the banks, of course, because it is

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a subsidy for them. Who loses? People who want to buy a house in

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the future. Moreover, it is a bit odd that the Government says it

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the future. Moreover, it is a bit not OK to borrow to finance schools

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or roads, but it is fine for the effectively, in order to guarantee

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housing market. 2.3 million? I do not think Help to Buy covers that.

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But enter a would-be buyer, will they now be seeing a plethora of

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help to buy mortgages? In a word, no. David Cameron has brought the

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months, and banks were not ready at that stage. Two banks have committed

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to fund the scheme, the Lloyds group and the RBS group, so lenders like

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Halifax, RBS and NatWest. They will be doing the scheme, but even once

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the scheme is up and running you are probably find 95% mortgages on the

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high street because of the guarantee the government is offering. People

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might say this is how we got into a mess in the first place. Why would

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the government want to make those products available then now? It

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the government want to make those more what investment banks were

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doing in the background that caused performed extremely well through the

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depths of the downturn. Is this performed extremely well through the

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game changer? Yes, I have done my best to save over the last few years

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but this has enabled me to make best to save over the last few years

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first purchase. How frustrating best to save over the last few years

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it just renting? Very frustrating, you are throwing away money hand

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over fist, and now I can take that enthusiasm raises a question back at

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the flat. If you are looking for a 95% mortgage, you don't really care

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economy, you are thinking, great, I can buy a house. Yes, if I was a

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house buyer or a bank, I would be pleased, but it will do longer term

:16:15.:16:21.

economic damage. The tricky steps the government are trying to pull

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off is that home-buyers might be so grateful for the opportunity to

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off is that home-buyers might be so their own homes that they reward the

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Government with the vote, while their own homes that they reward the

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the same time the Government tries to sidestep consequences that such a

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Now Conservative MP Margot James, and Allister Heath, editor of City

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It is said by the critics that this scheme will cause a housing bubble.

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Where is the evidence? House prices are more varied. Housing not just in

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London remains overvalued and the problem with this scheme is that it

:17:18.:17:22.

will pump up house prices, it will therefore houses will become even

:17:22.:17:31.

more overvalued. That is a dangerous territory, last time it ended in

:17:31.:17:35.

tears, and now the Government is taking on the risk of that policy.

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What do you say to that? We have a real problem, it takes people on

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average until they are 38 years real problem, it takes people on

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property. The problem is not that they cannot afford it, but they

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cannot afford the deposit. We have got to do something to allow people

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to get their feet on the property ladder and I don't agree it will

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cause a boom in house prices. It would if we were not building any

:18:08.:18:23.

have had a record this year, 12 months to right now, the record

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have had a record this year, 12 the last ten years. These are not

:18:34.:18:34.

the statistics I have seen, but the last ten years. These are not

:18:34.:18:41.

new supply is coming up. It is starting to creep up. We don't see

:18:41.:18:46.

enough house building, need to build more houses and that is a solution

:18:46.:18:51.

to this problem. You are right, people cannot afford to buy homes

:18:51.:18:54.

and the reason is there are not enough good quality homes in the

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deposits are so high is because secondly the Government has passed

:19:00.:19:04.

laws to make the banking system secondly the Government has passed

:19:04.:19:08.

prudent, telling them to put more wrong. Now suddenly the Government

:19:08.:19:16.

is not happy with the outcome of its own rules and is trying to create

:19:16.:19:20.

these subsidies to circumvent the rules it has put in place. It is not

:19:20.:19:26.

a subsidy. Don't forget banks have to pay a charge in order to take

:19:26.:19:32.

part in this loan scheme and that the... You are guaranteeing the

:19:32.:19:39.

money. Yes, but the fear is worked out on a commercial basis. The

:19:39.:19:42.

taxpayer is protected. Why? You out on a commercial basis. The

:19:42.:19:49.

guaranteeing £12 billion worth of mortgages per year. Yes but the

:19:49.:19:55.

change in the whole mortgage basis has been made a few years ago in

:19:55.:20:00.

response of the crash. They made the distressed test on people applying

:20:00.:20:03.

for mortgages much higher and you twice... So it will not be like

:20:03.:20:13.

these self certification mortgages handed out in America that caused

:20:13.:20:20.

the sub-prime crisis? Pigment bit like that but the banks are rightly

:20:20.:20:24.

asking for bigger deposits, they know there is a big chance house

:20:24.:20:29.

prices could fall if interest rates eventually, so they are demanding

:20:29.:20:33.

bigger deposits. The Government eventually, so they are demanding

:20:33.:20:39.

circumventing this is being passed eventually, so they are demanding

:20:39.:20:41.

on to the taxpayers which is why it is a dangerous policy. Instead they

:20:41.:20:46.

should be massively accelerating Planning permission is much easier

:20:46.:20:55.

to get now, we have seen a 49% increase in planning permission

:20:55.:20:58.

to get now, we have seen a 49% a new building over the last year, a

:20:58.:20:59.

huge increase. In the figures I a new building over the last year, a

:20:59.:21:05.

recently, they showed new start a new building over the last year, a

:21:05.:21:09.

the 12 months to the autumn were only about 110,000 which is the

:21:09.:21:12.

figure you inherited, which was only about 110,000 which is the

:21:12.:21:18.

an all-time low in 2010. New house built in the last quarter are third

:21:18.:21:24.

up on the time last year. You have relaxation of planning laws and

:21:24.:21:29.

up on the time last year. You have other policies the Government put

:21:29.:21:31.

into effect last year to take effect and it is coming through now. I

:21:31.:21:36.

agree, if we weren't building more houses, if the construction sector

:21:36.:21:42.

advantage of the increased demand, there would be a risk. David Cameron

:21:42.:21:49.

says you are snob and it is only snobs who dislike Help To Buy. They

:21:49.:21:57.

don't have the bank of mum and dad, people like that will finally get on

:21:57.:22:04.

the housing ladder. That is complete nonsense. We need a sustainable

:22:04.:22:07.

housing market where there is a large amount of construction, like

:22:07.:22:12.

in the 1930s for example, where large numbers of proper family homes

:22:12.:22:19.

were being built for people. House prices were pushed down and people

:22:19.:22:25.

could afford houses. You are now encouraging people to take out a 95%

:22:25.:22:30.

mortgage, I thought that was a bad idea, so supposing interest rates go

:22:30.:22:39.

struggle, and supposing house prices fall by more than 5%, I am now faced

:22:39.:22:44.

with negative equity and soaring interest rates that I cannot afford.

:22:44.:22:49.

95% mortgage, if you can afford interest rates that I cannot afford.

:22:49.:22:55.

repayments, you will be fine. What happens when interest rates rise?

:22:55.:23:01.

They have got to rise a lot before you get into trouble. People are

:23:01.:23:03.

already affording rent which is you get into trouble. People are

:23:03.:23:09.

lot higher than mortgage payments. You will not be able to get into

:23:09.:23:16.

this scheme unless you can afford repayments double what they are

:23:16.:23:20.

this scheme unless you can afford the moment. The Conservatives should

:23:20.:23:25.

limelight last week but there was an unwelcome intruder in the shape

:23:25.:23:30.

limelight last week but there was an row between Ed Miliband and the

:23:31.:23:33.

Daily Mail. Just over a week ago the claiming that Ed Miliband's Father

:23:33.:23:41.

Ralph hated Britain. They showed a picture of his father's gravestone

:23:41.:23:48.

with the caption, grave socialist. They then removed the photo and

:23:48.:23:52.

with the caption, grave socialist. Ed Miliband the right to reply on

:23:53.:23:57.

printed an editorial alongside it saying they stood by every word

:23:57.:24:01.

printed an editorial alongside it published an fair headline. It also

:24:01.:24:06.

reporter had gate-crashed a private memorial service for Ed Miliband's

:24:06.:24:11.

uncle in a London hospital, for which the paper has now apologised,

:24:11.:24:15.

but Ed Miliband has called on the hard look at the way his papers

:24:15.:24:24.

but Ed Miliband has called on the run. This comes a week before a

:24:24.:24:31.

but Ed Miliband has called on the Joining us now from Hull, John

:24:31.:24:31.

Prescott. Does this row between Joining us now from Hull, John

:24:31.:24:43.

reinforce the case for tough, new certainly influences the opinion

:24:43.:24:50.

about that but that is more of Paul Dacre's doing. Ed Miliband rang

:24:50.:24:53.

about that but that is more of Paul while I was in Strasbourg making

:24:53.:24:54.

sure my complaints were nothing while I was in Strasbourg making

:24:54.:24:59.

do with press regulation and he while I was in Strasbourg making

:24:59.:25:05.

right. This argument is not about politicians and media people, it is

:25:05.:25:07.

about ordinary people that love politicians and media people, it is

:25:07.:25:16.

and dealt with. All of these cases affected individual people and they

:25:16.:25:21.

are the ones that need to have justice in this matter. Next week we

:25:21.:25:27.

will be hearing whether the Privy Council will be reporting on the

:25:27.:25:33.

proposal to replace it. Are you agreeing then that what the mail did

:25:33.:25:49.

with its Miliband article was a matter of judgement? Yes, and the

:25:49.:26:02.

with its Miliband article was a conclusion that the relationship

:26:02.:26:05.

between the press, the police and politicians should be governed,

:26:05.:26:13.

between the press, the police and proposal given by half the press

:26:14.:26:19.

industry that that does not meet the Leveson requirement and I suspect

:26:19.:26:23.

the Privy Council this week will have to reject that, and I hope

:26:23.:26:26.

the Privy Council this week will will because it is not consistent

:26:26.:26:28.

with the Leveson report which the Prime Minister said he supported.

:26:28.:26:34.

You attacked the mail in your column today but your paper went through

:26:34.:26:41.

the Cameron family bins to see what nappies they used for their disabled

:26:41.:26:45.

son. Isn't that far more offensive than what the Daily Mail wrote about

:26:45.:26:47.

Ralph Miliband? It probably is, than what the Daily Mail wrote about

:26:47.:26:56.

couldn't defend that. I have had Haven't we all? Yes, but we are

:26:56.:27:09.

editors who acts unilaterally. Paul Dacre is running this thing in the

:27:09.:27:23.

judgement and some accountability which the press have accepted the

:27:23.:27:33.

old PCC is no good. They are playing for time because if they reject

:27:33.:27:37.

old PCC is no good. They are playing this week there is 12 months until

:27:37.:27:40.

you can consider a parliamentary alternative and then you are near

:27:40.:27:44.

the election and you begin to bully the leaders. That is how they have

:27:44.:27:48.

been successful in putting off recommendations. Maybe my memory is

:27:48.:27:58.

fading but did you or anybody else in the Labour Party object to the

:27:58.:28:04.

Sunday Mirror's behaviour? I didn't know about it. I would just say

:28:04.:28:09.

Sunday Mirror's behaviour? I didn't is wrong if that is what they did.

:28:09.:28:11.

As you said, you have the same position when they go through your

:28:11.:28:17.

rubbish bins, I think that is wrong. We have Leveson set up by the Prime

:28:17.:28:22.

Minister to look at the cultures and practices and the unilateral action

:28:22.:28:25.

of editors and he came forward with Parliament under a compromise of the

:28:25.:28:39.

frankly, but we have agreed to go frankly, but we have agreed to go

:28:39.:28:44.

Government set up in charge at the same time rushed through the press

:28:44.:28:51.

box? It looks like a fix, like they are using the Royal Charter as a

:28:51.:28:59.

means of delaying everything. They have now said they are going to

:28:59.:29:02.

introduce their own independent charter. This industry does not

:29:02.:29:08.

introduce their own independent accountability. We know Alistair

:29:08.:29:09.

Campbell and Ed Miliband's officers accountability. We know Alistair

:29:09.:29:14.

are working closely on the assault of the Mail. What is the endgame for

:29:14.:29:24.

this? Is it the head of Paul Dacre? He is not an acceptable character to

:29:24.:29:36.

me, and he needs to be taking account. When Ed Miliband rang me it

:29:36.:29:41.

was to say, don't let these arguments drift into press

:29:41.:29:44.

regulation, he wanted the argument of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband

:29:44.:29:58.

after Paul Dacre's head? No, he can stay there. It is like with Murdoch,

:29:58.:30:00.

after Paul Dacre's head? No, he can we were not attacking him but what

:30:00.:30:04.

is papers were doing. To that extent, what they are doing about

:30:04.:30:08.

ordinary people, not just big politicians who can look after

:30:08.:30:12.

themselves. We know, with the bad cases he had to deal with, they

:30:12.:30:16.

might get libel action, which the press say, but they pretty well

:30:16.:30:20.

destroyed their lives. That is about judgment. If you say, as Paul Dacre

:30:20.:30:26.

got good judgment? I would say no, he will have to live with it.

:30:26.:30:31.

Thank you for joining us, he did not even have to go to the BBC studios,

:30:31.:30:36.

we sent a truck there for him. What is the endgame in this? Whether the

:30:36.:30:41.

Labour Party is trying to make this an issue press regulation are not,

:30:41.:30:45.

this is where it is going. We have the criminal trial involving Andy

:30:45.:30:49.

Coulson coming up, the Privy Council discussing press radiation before

:30:49.:30:51.

the end of the year, and the question is, what is political

:30:51.:30:55.

impact? My hunch, it is an unfashionable view, is that the

:30:55.:30:59.

total at yum elated political impact of the Leveson story over the past

:30:59.:31:02.

several years, hacking and everything, is close to zero,

:31:02.:31:09.

because most voters do not care, and those who do care believe that all

:31:09.:31:13.

parties are roughly complicit in being too close to editors and

:31:13.:31:18.

proprietors. You said that Adam Afriyie was a Labour mould, with a

:31:18.:31:24.

smile. Is the Daily Mail also a Labour mole? This has been a dream

:31:24.:31:28.

for Ed Miliband, I took on Murdoch, I am taking on the energy companies

:31:28.:31:34.

and now the evil Daily Mail! I think... I should say I used to work

:31:34.:31:38.

for the Daily Mail, but when they printed the right of reply, they

:31:38.:31:42.

surrounded it with a big two fingers up at Ed. If they had not done

:31:42.:31:44.

surrounded it with a big two fingers that, they would not be in this

:31:44.:31:49.

position. The poll in the Sunday Times this morning shows 72% think

:31:49.:31:53.

the Daily Mail was wrong and backed Mr Miliband's demand for an apology.

:31:53.:31:58.

If you come to define and your dad, people are naturally going to do

:31:58.:32:02.

this, but it took all the coverage away from the Tory conference, the

:32:02.:32:05.

media loves covering itself, here we are doing it again, this has been a

:32:05.:32:12.

dream for Mr Miliband. The political significance of this is that David

:32:12.:32:15.

Cameron said in the House of Commons that he wanted to try to find some

:32:15.:32:18.

common ground between the three party Royal Charter and the

:32:18.:32:24.

so-called press industry version. What the Daily Mail has done is

:32:24.:32:28.

ensured that the Prime Minister is not going to be able to do that.

:32:28.:32:31.

What is going to happen this week is that the press Royal Charter has to

:32:31.:32:35.

be considered first, and that will probably be rejected. The Privy

:32:35.:32:42.

Council will reject it. Then the three party Royal Charter will come

:32:42.:32:47.

up, but meanwhile the press will set up their own regulatory body because

:32:47.:32:51.

the Royal Charter is not a proper statutory underpinning, they will be

:32:51.:32:52.

able to go ahead with that. There statutory underpinning, they will be

:32:52.:32:57.

will be the legal basis for the oversight of the oversight body, and

:32:57.:33:01.

it will basically just be an ambassador that will not be

:33:01.:33:07.

resolved. As you say, no-one much cares about this outside of the

:33:07.:33:10.

profession and a few media watchers. But this has been great politics for

:33:10.:33:18.

Ed Miliband. It is only great politics if he scores a great

:33:18.:33:25.

victory. I take your view that people are cynical about it. But the

:33:25.:33:29.

narrative is, I am the chap who stands up to vested interests. But

:33:30.:33:34.

all those vested interests are people that you would expect a

:33:34.:33:36.

left-wing politician to want to take on. It is also more significant

:33:36.:33:45.

about who he has stood up for, and the person he has studied for is his

:33:45.:33:48.

father. Maybe people thought of him as a Marxist, now they think of him

:33:48.:33:54.

as war hero. He gets to the crux of matters, you know! You are watching

:33:54.:34:00.

the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be

:34:00.:34:01.

speaking to Godfrey Hello, I'm Martyn Oates.

:34:02.:34:19.

Coming up on the Sunday Politics in the South West:

:34:19.:34:22.

The councils being told to stop using parking charges as a cash cow.

:34:22.:34:28.

And for the next 20 minutes I'm joined by Adrian Sanders, the

:34:28.:34:31.

Liberal Democrat MP for Torbay and Councillor Richard Westlake, leader

:34:31.:34:34.

of the Labour group on Devon County Council.

:34:34.:34:37.

Welcome. This week it emerged that Devon and

:34:37.:34:40.

Cornwall's Police and Crime Commissioner is spending 12% more

:34:40.:34:43.

on his staff than the old Police Authority. Meanwhile, a former

:34:43.:34:50.

Conservative leader of Devon County Council said introducing Police

:34:50.:34:55.

Commissioners was a mistake. I was chairman of the Devon and Cornwall

:34:55.:34:59.

police authority and it worked extremely well. I can't think that

:34:59.:35:03.

Policing has improved one iota since the commissioners were

:35:03.:35:07.

appointed. The commissioners are alien to our system in Devon and

:35:07.:35:12.

Cornwall. It emanated in not —— it emanated in America and we were far

:35:12.:35:17.

better as we were. If you have senior Tories

:35:17.:35:21.

criticising the existence of Police And Crime Commissioner has, it has

:35:21.:35:24.

come to something. Were we better the way we work? I think we were.

:35:24.:35:30.

Simon Day should be listened to. He has years of public service to the

:35:30.:35:34.

people of Devon and the south—west and he knows what he is talking

:35:34.:35:39.

about. I think he is right. This new system was supposed to make

:35:39.:35:46.

them more accountable to the public and the public are having to pay

:35:46.:35:55.

more for less police. Part of making the police more visible and

:35:55.:36:01.

consulting nor is one of the reasons for having this. I think

:36:01.:36:06.

the police authority did its fair share of consulting in the past. I

:36:06.:36:10.

don't think it is justified at a time of austerity when we are

:36:10.:36:18.

having bobbies taken off the beat. The most important thing is

:36:18.:36:21.

operational capacity. If you need more people in the backroom been

:36:21.:36:26.

clearly this experiment is not working. Labour was not a fan of

:36:26.:36:29.

the police commissioners, should you be committed to getting rid of

:36:29.:36:32.

them if you why elected after the next general election? We should

:36:32.:36:37.

certainly have a look at it. The election cost £100 million which

:36:37.:36:43.

everyone agrees was a fiasco. Really we are not seeing yet what

:36:43.:36:46.

we were told we were going to get on the tin. It is very important

:36:46.:36:51.

that we have to look at this. The whole problem is that if you want

:36:51.:36:55.

to change things and you change it again, then you always have a cost.

:36:55.:36:59.

That is a real worry. What people are telling me and I am sure they

:37:00.:37:03.

are saying the same to Adrian is we want to see police on our streets,

:37:03.:37:08.

looking after us, walking the streets and fighting crime. That is

:37:08.:37:12.

what they are talking about. The other area they are concerned about

:37:12.:37:19.

his PCF those who do a fantastic job. PCF sos they give so much to

:37:19.:37:30.

the community and that thing that is so important.

:37:30.:37:32.

The Prime Minister has announced that the government is bringing

:37:32.:37:35.

forward the second phase of its Help To Buy housing scheme. But

:37:35.:37:38.

with tens of thousands of people on waiting lists for affordable homes

:37:38.:37:41.

in the region, campaigners say much more radical action is needed to

:37:41.:37:44.

tackle the housing crisis. Tamsin Melville reports.

:37:44.:37:47.

If a first—time buyer was buying that, whereas before they would

:37:47.:37:51.

need... Business has been picking up for this estate agent recently

:37:51.:37:55.

but he is not sure that the Government subsidising mortgages is

:37:55.:38:00.

the answer took housing issues. The main problem we have with house

:38:01.:38:04.

prices in Cornwall as a we are in a small and popular and sought—after

:38:04.:38:08.

geographical area and what we need is more properties built. The Help

:38:08.:38:14.

To Buy scheme was announced in this year's budget. It allows homeowners

:38:14.:38:19.

with a small deposit to get a 95% mortgage. It is backed by a

:38:19.:38:22.

government guarantee and will now be available on new and existing

:38:22.:38:28.

properties in England, worth up to £600,000. As prime minister I am

:38:28.:38:31.

not going to stand back while people's aspirations to get on the

:38:31.:38:35.

housing ladder and own their own home is been trashed, that is why

:38:35.:38:39.

we need to act. Critics say would not enough houses to go round the

:38:39.:38:42.

Government's strategy to help buyers could fuel a housing bubble.

:38:43.:38:47.

This development near Falmouth is under way but in Cornwall alone

:38:47.:38:52.

there are nearly 13,000 homes with planning permission that remain

:38:52.:38:57.

unfilled. With recent reports the south—west is alone in seeing a

:38:57.:39:01.

fall in new build, some argue their needs to be a radical change in

:39:01.:39:06.

thinking. There are plenty of plots, if you like, with planning

:39:06.:39:09.

permission that simply do not go ahead because we have managed to

:39:09.:39:13.

confuse social housing on the one hand with market housing on the

:39:13.:39:18.

other. In my view it would be much better to separate them completely

:39:18.:39:24.

so that affordable housing for rent and shared ownership is one thing

:39:24.:39:29.

and market housing is something different. He believes there is

:39:29.:39:32.

nothing standing in the way of local communities having the homes

:39:32.:39:37.

at prices they can afford. It should be financed by a combination

:39:37.:39:41.

of the Local Enterprise Partnership and local authority pension funds.

:39:41.:39:45.

There is no need for any more government grants and no need for

:39:45.:39:52.

any more public spending. Those who lead the local enterprise

:39:52.:39:55.

partnerships say it is not that simple. They are not all things to

:39:55.:39:58.

everything. We will have a small amount of money to invest but it

:39:58.:40:02.

needs to be strategically invested to get the best value for money

:40:02.:40:06.

that we could possibly have. Throwing all of that at an area of

:40:06.:40:10.

market failure such as affordable housing is not the answer to our

:40:10.:40:15.

budgets. Here there has not been much interested help to buy so far

:40:15.:40:18.

but with a long—term housing solution seemingly a long way off,

:40:18.:40:22.

there are hopes it could get the market on track.

:40:22.:40:25.

Tamsin Melville reporting and Cornwall Conservative MP George

:40:25.:40:31.

Eustice joins us to discuss. Welcome to the programme. Figures

:40:31.:40:35.

from the National House Building Council show that new builds in

:40:35.:40:39.

Cornwall are static or in decline. That is against the background of

:40:39.:40:43.

20% increase across the country last year. It is pretty poor and

:40:43.:40:48.

pretty worrying, isn't it? The Government has a number of policies

:40:48.:40:52.

to increase housebuilding and we have a home shortage and we have

:40:52.:40:56.

people who are unable to get a home of their own. The new homes Bonas

:40:56.:41:00.

has been quite important to encourage local authorities to take

:41:01.:41:06.

the right approach. When we do read —— when we do new—build we should

:41:06.:41:09.

focus on brownfield sites first rather than green field sites like

:41:09.:41:15.

my conserve —— constituency. Would you accept Labour's recitation that

:41:15.:41:19.

you have got the balance wrong with the emphasis you are placing on

:41:19.:41:25.

building rather than facilitating people buying existing houses? We

:41:25.:41:29.

have got the balance right. These figures do not suggest it. We

:41:29.:41:33.

abolish the regional spacial strategies that Labour had that

:41:33.:41:36.

were putting unsustainable housing targets on Cornwall. In my own

:41:36.:41:42.

patch we have plans to build 11,000 houses when there is only 8,000 now

:41:42.:41:46.

and we scrapped the targets and told the local authority was up to

:41:46.:41:49.

them to decide what they needed and they have halved the housing target.

:41:49.:41:53.

We have got it right in terms of planning. We should support people

:41:53.:41:57.

when it comes to buying their new home. One I bought my first flat 10

:41:57.:42:02.

years ago 95% mortgages were normal. It was easy to buy a flat. The did

:42:02.:42:06.

not have to have huge savings. The reality now with that unless you

:42:06.:42:10.

are very wealthy or you have wealthy parents, you are denied the

:42:10.:42:14.

opportunity to own your own home. That cannot be right and we have to

:42:14.:42:17.

support people and help them by making these 95% mortgages which

:42:17.:42:22.

used to be normal available to young people now. Labour makes

:42:22.:42:26.

great play of the fact we are building fewer houses now since the

:42:26.:42:30.

1920s. I have looked into the figures and it appears to be true.

:42:30.:42:35.

The problem is the advice is coming from you in a Labour when

:42:35.:42:38.

housebuilding flat line when you were in government as well. Why do

:42:38.:42:43.

you have the solution now? It is quite important to realise that we

:42:43.:42:49.

do need to have affordable housing. I will say that in terms of council

:42:49.:42:53.

housing we came to this very late and it was at the end of the Labour

:42:53.:42:57.

government that we actually started to see an increase in have —— in a

:42:57.:43:01.

council house building. We have seen in the last three or four

:43:01.:43:05.

years a complete shutdown in some ways because of all the problems we

:43:05.:43:09.

have had with planning regulations and the change in the spatial

:43:09.:43:13.

strategy so we are not seeing... You think has a housing is the way

:43:13.:43:18.

forward? It is true that government facilitated small house will ——

:43:18.:43:22.

some small amount of council house building. You can I have complete,

:43:22.:43:26.

you have got to have a mixture. For councils to have the opportunity

:43:26.:43:31.

for them to develop especially affordable housing which is the key.

:43:31.:43:34.

What we are seeing now is young couples who cannot get on to the

:43:34.:43:38.

housing ladder. What they do do, however, is they are paying rent

:43:38.:43:42.

that is far more than what a mortgage would have been. That is a

:43:42.:43:46.

real problem. Should we build more council housing? We should set the

:43:46.:43:51.

build more affordable housing, more rented accommodation. We are

:43:51.:43:56.

talking about regulated rent, secured Tennessee housing. If we

:43:56.:44:00.

could change the laws on private rented, we could open up the market

:44:00.:44:07.

where people can rent on seven—year or 14 year agreements and that is

:44:07.:44:11.

not something we have here. The private sector could be used to

:44:11.:44:14.

build some of that. The important thing, and I despair when I hear

:44:14.:44:18.

the chairman of the early be not recognising the importance of

:44:18.:44:20.

affordable housing, of keeping skilled people in our labour market

:44:21.:44:25.

and attracting people in to invest in the area. Instead they move away

:44:25.:44:32.

and that is no good for our economy. The LEP has other responsibilities

:44:32.:44:35.

and this discussion has demonstrated that it is pretty

:44:35.:44:38.

complex. Most people I have discussed it with have said there

:44:38.:44:42.

is no one solution and the exception to that seems to be one

:44:42.:44:47.

person who thinks there is. Anything that offers a solution

:44:47.:44:51.

needs to be investigated. We get caught up in a numbers game. It is

:44:51.:44:55.

about meeting local housing need. We are in a high property price

:44:55.:45:00.

area with lower than average wages. We need more affordable housing

:45:00.:45:04.

than would otherwise be the case. Leaving it up to the market I am

:45:04.:45:08.

afraid has put us in the position we are in at the moment. Just

:45:08.:45:13.

bringing George back. On this silver bullet. A I remember

:45:13.:45:18.

discussing this with him about two years ago when he was the first

:45:18.:45:24.

chairman we had a of the MEP for a brief period. It is an interesting

:45:24.:45:29.

idea. What he was saying was let us not chuck public money at this but

:45:29.:45:33.

have their Local Enterprise Partnership facilitator Newmarket

:45:33.:45:36.

way you might get pension funds who are fearful of where they are going

:45:36.:45:40.

to invest their money in a credit crunch, get them to invest in large

:45:40.:45:44.

housing estates where they can have a guaranteed income over a period

:45:44.:45:47.

of time and er thing that is an interesting idea and others have

:45:47.:45:52.

also mentioned this. I think there is scope for this. It is a shame

:45:52.:45:56.

that the Local Enterprise Partnership did not recognise the

:45:56.:45:59.

benefit and the importance of housing to the Cornish economy of.

:45:59.:46:03.

The business community were reluctant to get involved in this

:46:03.:46:07.

because they did not understand the relevance of it but if you are a

:46:07.:46:10.

construction company or a plant hire company that having a vibrant

:46:10.:46:14.

construction industry is important. Thank you very much, we have to

:46:14.:46:17.

leave that there. This week there was more talk about

:46:17.:46:20.

putting up council tax in Cornwall. Cash—strapped authorities have few

:46:21.:46:23.

other options for raising revenue. And one which the Government now

:46:23.:46:26.

says they shouldn't be abusing is parking charges. John Henderson

:46:26.:46:28.

reports. Paying for parking is right up

:46:28.:46:32.

there with the things we love to hate. I see it as a tax on

:46:32.:46:38.

motorists. The impact that it is happening on our local communities

:46:38.:46:42.

I think it is having a detrimental effect. Generally it is ridiculous.

:46:42.:46:47.

It is too dear. If I want to go and pick up a newspaper it costs me a

:46:47.:46:51.

pound to park. Some news from Liskeard. They could be from any

:46:51.:46:57.

car park in the region. It is not cheap to park here, £1 for up to

:46:57.:47:02.

two hours and if you have a £2 coin then there is no change. Perhaps it

:47:02.:47:06.

is one of the reasons why Cornwall council is making eye—watering

:47:06.:47:12.

amounts from its car parks. Eye— watering equals just under £800,

:47:12.:47:16.

put in Cornwall in the top 10 nationally when it comes to profits

:47:16.:47:20.

from car parks. Regionally Cornwallis way out in front. Exeter

:47:20.:47:24.

and Torbay make half as much but are still pretty flush. Others are

:47:24.:47:28.

not doing too badly either, even those near the bottom are making a

:47:28.:47:33.

profit and those riches have not gone unnoticed. What this is about

:47:33.:47:37.

is it is about raking in pretty large sums of money to fill the

:47:37.:47:43.

council coffers. The law is pretty clear. It says there you are not

:47:43.:47:47.

allowed to do that. Cornwall council has said without the

:47:47.:47:51.

largesse from its car parks it would have to cut services and

:47:51.:47:56.

raise council tax. Yes, we are in the top 10 and they don't think it

:47:56.:47:59.

is a surprise. The money we get from parking of course helps us to

:47:59.:48:04.

maintain our car parks and our roads and Allestree lives, our

:48:04.:48:07.

hedges and all the services that people of Cornwall rely on. We do

:48:07.:48:12.

make a surplus and it is put to good use otherwise we would have to

:48:12.:48:16.

find the money from somewhere else. It is a similar story in Torbay

:48:16.:48:20.

where the council openly admits it is trying to maximise income at a

:48:20.:48:25.

time when budgets are tied. Latest figures show the car parts raise

:48:25.:48:31.

£3.7 million a year. Officers say any surpluses put back into the

:48:31.:48:34.

council's overall budget and can be used in the same way as council tax

:48:34.:48:39.

income. They introduced parking meters in 2009 and they bring in

:48:39.:48:44.

over £1 million a year, money it is using to help pay for pension a bus

:48:44.:48:48.

travel. The rules regarding on— street parking revenue are less

:48:48.:48:52.

flexible and some councils have found themselves in trouble. We saw

:48:52.:48:56.

in the High Court a few months ago that Barnet council was found to

:48:56.:49:00.

have acted illegally by setting parking charges not to manage

:49:00.:49:04.

congestion or cover their parking costs but to raise general revenue.

:49:04.:49:08.

We have every sympathy with cash— strapped councils but we have no

:49:08.:49:11.

sympathy with them if they think they can essentially tax motorists

:49:11.:49:15.

to make up the shortfall. Putting up parking charges is tempting for

:49:15.:49:20.

councils, partly because it appears so easy compared to raising council

:49:20.:49:26.

tax. But there are risks. With the government promising to get tough

:49:26.:49:29.

and the public suspicious about where all the money goes.

:49:29.:49:34.

John Henderson reporting. Earlier I spoke the the Local Government

:49:34.:49:36.

Minister Brandon Lewis and asked him for the Government's message to

:49:36.:49:39.

councils like Torbay and Cornwall which openly admit they're using

:49:39.:49:45.

parking charges as a revenue stream. What we say to them is you have to

:49:45.:49:48.

look really carefully at how you develop your area in the future.

:49:48.:49:52.

First the you should not be making profits from parking charges, that

:49:52.:49:57.

is clear. Councils in the future are funded primarily through

:49:57.:50:00.

business rates. We have changed the system this year so any growth in

:50:00.:50:04.

business rates goes back to the district councils directly and a

:50:04.:50:07.

benefit with every little bit of growth. To see a town—centre grow

:50:07.:50:11.

and see business rates grow, we need to see retail rates in the

:50:11.:50:15.

High Street grow. We need to get more people into the High Street

:50:15.:50:18.

and the town centres and parking charges can be a disincentive to

:50:18.:50:23.

put people off coming year. We want people in the town centres and

:50:23.:50:26.

councils should one people there. The best way to do that is to have

:50:26.:50:31.

really good, sensible, attractive parking policies. Actually this is

:50:31.:50:36.

a lot more carrot and stick. Eric Pickles says you should stop doing

:50:36.:50:39.

it because it is bad per se, but this is rather a different argument,

:50:39.:50:44.

this is an incentive. Absolutely, it is both. It is absolutely an

:50:44.:50:49.

incentive. Get more people endure Townsend and your high streets and

:50:49.:50:52.

that will attract more people to your shops which is more money for

:50:52.:50:55.

the council. He declared council should not overcharge for parking

:50:55.:51:00.

charges. That is not what they are about. And they are there to make

:51:00.:51:04.

sure people park sensibly and reasonably. He it is not really

:51:04.:51:06.

what people should be doing but there is nothing to do to stop it

:51:07.:51:10.

other than offering an incentive. We offer an incentive and we are

:51:10.:51:13.

making it clear to councils that we are looking closely at it. We want

:51:13.:51:17.

to make sure that high streets and town centres are attractive places

:51:17.:51:21.

for people and parking charges are part of that. Do you accept the

:51:21.:51:26.

councils are saying that we have throws and council tax, as we have

:51:26.:51:29.

been asked to do and we need to get the money somewhere. If we stop

:51:29.:51:32.

making this money from parking we must put council tax up. The best

:51:32.:51:37.

way for councils to see an increase in their income is an increase in

:51:37.:51:41.

business rates. An increase in business rates comes from more

:51:41.:51:44.

business is doing better and be more successful in the High Street

:51:44.:51:48.

and the town centres. I come back to the secular but positive

:51:48.:51:52.

argument. That means week or more people in town centres and high

:51:52.:51:54.

streets and the easiest way to attract them is have a good offer

:51:54.:51:58.

and a huge part of that is an attractive parking policy. Just to

:51:58.:52:02.

be clear, you accept that councils need to be persuaded by this

:52:02.:52:06.

initial incentive rather than being forced by government. We have been

:52:06.:52:11.

clear to councils that they should not use the parking charges to will

:52:11.:52:15.

raise charges. But effectively they are. They should not be doing that.

:52:15.:52:20.

The law allows them to so clearly they will have their finances are

:52:20.:52:24.

tight. Actually the law is really clear. Parking charges are not

:52:24.:52:28.

supposed be a punitive tax and parking notices are not supposed to

:52:28.:52:33.

be a punitive tax. But the law says if the council brazenly uses ate

:52:33.:52:38.

they are on the wrong side of the law but if they say they have a car

:52:38.:52:43.

park which is self— financing and they have a large surplus the

:52:43.:52:46.

making do what they like with the money, so they are likely to do

:52:46.:52:49.

that. That is where councils will lose out because shoppers will not

:52:49.:52:54.

go into town centres. But you cannot legally stop them doing it?

:52:54.:52:57.

The ultimate issue is about whether people are in the town centres. If

:52:57.:53:01.

they are not then councils lose out because they look shops and

:53:01.:53:04.

business rates and none of us want to say that. They should want to

:53:04.:53:08.

attract people into the town centres with good, attractive

:53:08.:53:11.

sensible parking structures. Thank you very much.

:53:11.:53:18.

Adrian, are you with the the government and the motorist or the

:53:18.:53:24.

council's? I am with keeping vibrant town centres. If Torbay is

:53:24.:53:29.

now getting £1 million from the parking meters they put in, that is

:53:29.:53:34.

£1 million that is not going into shop tills. If I was running the

:53:34.:53:38.

council then I am not sure if I would be able to do anything

:53:38.:53:41.

differently because of being a cash—strapped unitary authority.

:53:41.:53:45.

This is quite a complex issue. If you have a town or parish council

:53:45.:53:50.

that set the precept and it can be spent directly on whatever you want

:53:50.:53:54.

which is why you find car—parking charges are not a cash cow in those

:53:54.:53:59.

areas. If you are a unit tree you have statutory duties so you have

:53:59.:54:03.

to pay for them and what goes over goes towards things like parking

:54:03.:54:05.

and gardens and all the rest of it and the only thing you really

:54:05.:54:10.

control income wise beyond your council tax is car parking charges.

:54:10.:54:14.

Richard, you obviously do not write council but you sit on a council

:54:14.:54:18.

and are involved in these decisions. Well, the off—street parking is a

:54:18.:54:24.

city council in Exeter and the on— street is the county council.

:54:24.:54:28.

Yesterday I was reading through some papers and I noticed that it

:54:28.:54:36.

was about to perform million pounds —— £2.4 million. That we have in

:54:36.:54:43.

parking charges. The problem that Eric Pickles did not say was over

:54:43.:54:47.

the last four years we have had £100 million taken out of our

:54:47.:54:50.

budget and now we have been told we have another £100 million being

:54:50.:54:55.

taken out of our budget so it is balancing how we actually maintain

:54:55.:54:59.

enforcement and maintain our roads and structure and them worry I have

:54:59.:55:03.

is the fact that we are not going to be able to do those things in

:55:03.:55:06.

future. That was another issue we did not get time to get round

:55:06.:55:10.

Now our regular round—up of the political week in 60 seconds.

:55:10.:55:18.

Confirmation that the region is to lose all of its direct flights to

:55:18.:55:23.

London is met with dismay by businesses. I cannot say that I can

:55:23.:55:26.

support further growth within Cornwall at this stage. Meanwhile

:55:26.:55:31.

train passengers to the capital will continue to travel courtesy of

:55:31.:55:35.

First Great Western for the next two years. No problem with First

:55:35.:55:39.

Great Western, it is the agreement with the Government and the lack of

:55:39.:55:42.

any investment in Bristol and the next three years. Buses, roads,

:55:42.:55:46.

libraries and support for vulnerable people are all in the

:55:46.:55:49.

firing line in Cornwall at the Council reveals next year's draft

:55:49.:55:54.

budget. In Devon day—care centres face closure. For those people who

:55:54.:55:59.

need the kind of care that only day centres can offer and a respite for

:55:59.:56:06.

carers, they are essential. And councils across the region asked to

:56:06.:56:11.

stop employing staff on zero hours contracts. I really do feel we

:56:11.:56:15.

ought to stop it and make sure that people have fixed—term contracts on

:56:15.:56:22.

decent wages. So, Adrian, broadly, more bad news

:56:22.:56:28.

for the transport sector. It is a problem for us being on the

:56:28.:56:31.

periphery of the United Kingdom and is vital to have good transport

:56:31.:56:35.

links. The three ingredients of success are a skilled workforce,

:56:35.:56:39.

affordable housing and good transport links. Richard, Exeter is

:56:39.:56:42.

a little better served than the rest of the region but still it is

:56:42.:56:49.

an issue. It is a very serious issue. With First Great Western,

:56:49.:56:52.

the announcement of the 20 three— month extension, but however, that

:56:52.:56:59.

23 months are in limbo and we need to know what is going to happen and

:56:59.:57:02.

we need to see investment in our railways. Thank you very

:57:02.:57:04.

we need to see investment in our We are getting into a discussion of

:57:04.:57:08.

more affordable homes needed, but we have no time. Andrew, back to you.

:57:08.:57:17.

Our next guest is no stranger to controversy, a former UKIP MEP he

:57:17.:57:22.

recently lost his party's whip after a series of outbursts including

:57:22.:57:44.

receiving aid as 'Bongo Bongo Land' and joking that a group of UKIP

:57:44.:57:47.

women who didn't clean behind their fridges were 'sluts'. Now he sits in

:57:47.:57:52.

independent but remains a UKIP party member. Here's a flavour of recent

:57:52.:57:55.

events in the political life of Godfrey Bloom. How you can possibly

:57:55.:58:10.

be giving £1 million a month... Bongo Bongo Land. I got 6000 e-mails

:58:10.:58:16.

within 12 hours, only 47 were not agreeing with me so you are the

:58:16.:58:20.

within 12 hours, only 47 were not that is out of touch. Everybody

:58:20.:58:23.

knows me, a bit like the Marmite joke, they love me or they hate

:58:23.:58:27.

knows me, a bit like the Marmite but I have always told me like it

:58:27.:58:36.

is. I made a joke and said that women who did not clean behind the

:58:36.:58:40.

French were sluts and everybody laughed along, including the women.

:58:40.:58:46.

I have had hundreds of e-mails, saying, God Almighty, can't you

:58:46.:58:51.

I have had hundreds of e-mails, a joke any more? I am long in the

:58:51.:58:54.

correctness and I understand UKIP have moved on and they are doing

:58:54.:59:07.

well, and I wish them well. This, with no black faces on it. You are

:59:07.:59:10.

picking people out for the colour of with no black faces on it. You are

:59:10.:59:17.

their skin? You disgust me! Perhaps the way they are doing things now is

:59:17.:59:25.

disgrace me. We are joined now with a suitable distance between us by

:59:25.:59:31.

the independent MEP for Yorkshire and the Humber, Godfrey Bloom. You

:59:31.:59:34.

said this weekend that you have and the Humber, Godfrey Bloom. You

:59:35.:59:40.

be a complete sociopath to be in politics, are you a sociopath? No, I

:59:40.:59:50.

am just an ordinary bloke from the rugby club likes to tell it as it

:59:50.:59:52.

is. I did not come into politics to rugby club likes to tell it as it

:59:52.:59:56.

save my country from the clutches of the awful, evil... That is why I am

:59:56.:00:03.

in politics, and that is why I member, and I will still be voting

:00:03.:00:15.

ability... Do you accept that your conference? We were both born in

:00:15.:00:21.

ability... Do you accept that your same year, we are too old to worry

:00:21.:00:25.

about regrets. Let's look forward and see... Never mind the year I was

:00:25.:00:31.

born, what is the answer to my country and intent to do the best I

:00:31.:00:35.

independent for my country, and country and intent to do the best I

:00:35.:00:43.

re-elected. They are the only game in town, the only party that will

:00:43.:00:48.

get as out. Shouldn't you have been liability? You hijacked the party

:00:48.:00:56.

conference. That is a matter of perception. We have heard nothing in

:00:56.:01:00.

the last two years but it is a one-man band, a Nigel Farage party,

:01:00.:01:05.

and I can make a joke at a fringe meeting and collapse the whole

:01:05.:01:09.

thing. This doesn't say anything Andrew. It tells you about your

:01:09.:01:19.

journalism - it is not about UKIP or me, it was the journalists' reaction

:01:19.:01:26.

to a small joke at a meeting. And also Nigel Farage's reaction - is

:01:26.:01:30.

myself, unless I had a commended. Personality, the most unbelievable

:01:30.:01:43.

force of personality to collapse a party conference. Nigel Farage has

:01:43.:01:56.

been a friend of mine for 20 years, and may I remind you that in June

:01:56.:02:00.

and July UK was slipping in the polls, and when I made my statement

:02:00.:02:06.

about overseas aid, we went back to liability, I never was, I am a vote

:02:06.:02:14.

getter. As you know, there is a correlation, but let me show you

:02:14.:02:18.

what Nigel Farage had to say about you on the BBC. Let's blunder clip

:02:18.:02:23.

of that. We are not here to win friends amongst the liberal elite,

:02:23.:02:30.

and Godfrey's problem was that he manifesto. Don't you need to reflect

:02:30.:02:39.

that you are too outrageous, too politically incorrect even for UKIP?

:02:39.:02:41.

Well, you see, to a certain extent I politically incorrect even for UKIP?

:02:42.:02:47.

have been gagged on other subjects. I am a libertarian, I wanted to

:02:47.:02:51.

have been gagged on other subjects. about flat tax. I thought David

:02:51.:02:53.

Aronowitz wrote a very good piece in the times on drugs, and I have been

:02:54.:02:57.

gagged to speak about any of these things because they are not part of

:02:57.:03:02.

it, so I tend to speak about other things. Maybe they have outgrown

:03:02.:03:11.

machine, and they have to get rid of the Victor Meldrew wing. You might

:03:11.:03:13.

have a point, but I am speaking the Victor Meldrew wing. You might

:03:13.:03:17.

you from Hull, and if you look at Barnsley, and very recently in

:03:17.:03:23.

Scarborough and Whitby in the buy legends, 25%, so how you see things

:03:23.:03:28.

in the bubble, it is not like how we see it appear in Yorkshire. You

:03:28.:03:32.

in the bubble, it is not like how we like the one who was sitting in

:03:32.:03:35.

in the bubble, it is not like how we bubble! Is UKIP unravelling? Of

:03:35.:03:35.

course it isn't, we are getting bubble! Is UKIP unravelling? Of

:03:35.:03:41.

of the vote in by-elections, of course it is not. Boy, wouldn't

:03:41.:03:45.

of the vote in by-elections, of main parties and the establishment

:03:45.:03:48.

love to see that! But I am sorry, it is not happening. Will you stand as

:03:48.:03:52.

an independence against UKIP in is not happening. Will you stand as

:03:52.:03:55.

European elections? Almost certainly elections were next week, I could

:03:55.:04:08.

do not think I will go that route. Will you stand as a UKIP candidate

:04:08.:04:10.

again? We do not know, probably Will you stand as a UKIP candidate

:04:10.:04:14.

but I shall certainly be trying Will you stand as a UKIP candidate

:04:14.:04:18.

help UKIP as best I can. You both share a flat, I understand, in

:04:18.:04:21.

Brussels, neither of you clean behind the fridge. Other than the

:04:21.:04:26.

fact that the place is probably quite murky, you have got a chance

:04:26.:04:30.

to talk to each other and get back into his good graces, haven't you? I

:04:30.:04:34.

am sure we will be having a beer before the month is out. So Godfrey

:04:34.:04:44.

take it? For those of you who were shrugged! Thank you very much for

:04:44.:04:50.

joining. A great pleasure. I will have to move my own share, you do

:04:50.:04:56.

not have the sea Jeremy Paxman doing that! Nobody votes for UKIP because

:04:56.:05:00.

they think they are a smooth, slick, absence of PR polish is the reason

:05:00.:05:07.

for their popularity, so these are skirmishes are not a problem, and

:05:07.:05:11.

more than that, Godfrey Bloom does make Nigel Farage look better. Even

:05:11.:05:15.

in that clip from Andrew Marr, he juxtaposition with someone like

:05:15.:05:20.

Godfrey Bloom than he has done before. I mean, he did hijacked

:05:20.:05:25.

Godfrey Bloom than he has done conference, it was a disaster, they

:05:25.:05:26.

got tonnes of publicity but not conference, it was a disaster, they

:05:26.:05:29.

kind they wanted. But you have to journalists. I thought he was sexist

:05:29.:05:37.

long before anyone else, he used to have an incredible page on his

:05:37.:05:42.

website entitled Godfrey Bloom: Misogynist, and the proof that he

:05:42.:05:47.

photographed with a girls' rugby characters in politics. He does

:05:47.:05:53.

photographed with a girls' rugby Nigel Farage look better, but is sin

:05:53.:05:55.

was to say things you said before but to ruin the party conference. It

:05:55.:06:02.

sounds like he is coming back. A beer in Brussels and he will be

:06:02.:06:06.

sounds like he is coming back. A on the UKIP ticket. Sitting having a

:06:06.:06:07.

beer in that built the Chechen, on the UKIP ticket. Sitting having a

:06:07.:06:12.

sounds like it may be what the deal is that he comes back into UKIP

:06:12.:06:15.

sounds like it may be what the deal does not stand as an MEP at the

:06:16.:06:19.

European Parliamentary elections. -- in that built the kitchen. It is

:06:19.:06:22.

right to say the electorate are sophisticated and they know what

:06:22.:06:25.

this party is for, what characters Godfrey Bloom said for people to

:06:25.:06:33.

electorate know what they go using UKIP four. They are using it as

:06:33.:06:37.

electorate know what they go using vehicle to beat over the head the

:06:37.:06:37.

three established parties. They vehicle to beat over the head the

:06:38.:06:41.

probably do it in the European elections and give them first place.

:06:41.:06:44.

The big question is what happens in problem that Nigel Farage was making

:06:44.:06:56.

The big question is what happens in an Andrew Marr this morning is that

:06:56.:06:56.

he wants to copy the tactics of an Andrew Marr this morning is that

:06:56.:06:58.

he wants to copy the tactics of Paddy Ashdown, get elected and

:06:58.:07:00.

councils, build up a Parliamentary base, and to do that you do need

:07:00.:07:01.

Commons next week, and there is base, and to do that you do need

:07:01.:07:05.

ministerial reshuffle on the cards, that is the rumour in Westminster.

:07:05.:07:06.

David Cameron has spoken of the that is the rumour in Westminster.

:07:07.:07:11.

David Cameron has spoken of the extraordinary talent pool of women

:07:11.:07:12.

among his ministers, so could he bring more of them into the cabinet?

:07:12.:07:15.

He was talking about it earlier bring more of them into the cabinet?

:07:15.:07:20.

week. I think we are getting there in Britain, but we have a long way

:07:20.:07:25.

businesses in Britain, there are not boardroom. If you look at politics

:07:25.:07:29.

in Britain, there aren't nearly enough women around the Cabinet

:07:29.:07:34.

table. So I think, in every walk of life, whether it is the judiciary,

:07:34.:07:38.

whether it is politics, business, there is a lot further to go. Before

:07:38.:07:41.

the last election, we only had there is a lot further to go. Before

:07:41.:07:45.

women Members of Parliament. We there is a lot further to go. Before

:07:45.:07:48.

have around 50, so we have made there is a lot further to go. Before

:07:48.:07:50.

big change, but it is still 50 out of 300, not nearly enough. So we

:07:50.:07:55.

need to do more. My wife likes to say, if you don't have women in

:07:55.:08:00.

need to do more. My wife likes to places, you're not just missing

:08:00.:08:03.

need to do more. My wife likes to missing out on a lot more than

:08:03.:08:06.

need to do more. My wife likes to of the talent, and I think she

:08:06.:08:09.

need to do more. My wife likes to probably has a point. The prime

:08:09.:08:14.

need to do more. My wife likes to there going to be a reshuffle? I

:08:14.:08:15.

think you are right to say there there going to be a reshuffle? I

:08:15.:08:19.

will be a lot more women, they need to change the ratio of women to

:08:19.:08:25.

will be a lot more women, they need called Dave who went to maudlin

:08:25.:08:33.

college. So obviously they are not fishing in the biggest talent pool,

:08:33.:08:43.

but there are numbers. Esther McVey has been selling a very difficult

:08:43.:08:46.

brief in work and pensions, you could see people being given bigger

:08:46.:08:48.

roles. Helen is pretty sure. We could see people being given bigger

:08:48.:08:55.

told it is not a Cabinet level reshuffle me it is under Secretary

:08:55.:08:58.

level, so maybe you could put Esther McVey into the Cabinet. Margot

:08:58.:09:05.

James, who you had here not that long ago, she is very impressive.

:09:05.:09:07.

What is impressive is that some long ago, she is very impressive.

:09:07.:09:12.

like Andrea Leadsom, who is really impressive, worked in the City,

:09:12.:09:16.

like Andrea Leadsom, who is really smart, really big on important

:09:16.:09:20.

intervention, she should still be in there, but she fell out with George

:09:20.:09:23.

Osborne when she dared to criticise him a few years ago over Ed Balls

:09:23.:09:33.

you are doing it on talent, Andrea expectation, if he does not do this

:09:33.:09:41.

now, a tonne of bricks will fall on him. He has got no excuse not to

:09:41.:09:48.

promote women, because the 2010 intake was disproportionately female

:09:49.:09:56.

in terms of talent. The question of the Tories and the struggle with

:09:56.:10:00.

women voters is a very deep and historic one. You have to remember

:10:00.:10:03.

that for most of the post-war period they had an advantage electorally

:10:04.:10:07.

amongst women voters. Many times Conservative government without

:10:07.:10:12.

amongst women voters. Many times women of this country. This began to

:10:12.:10:14.

change in the mid-1990s, and the question is, why has that happened?

:10:14.:10:21.

personalities at the top are now much more hostile to women, or less,

:10:21.:10:26.

personalities at the top are now Brent doubled to female voters?

:10:26.:10:28.

personalities at the top are now is such a deep historical trend

:10:28.:10:29.

personalities at the top are now I do not think one reshuffle will

:10:29.:10:35.

change it. -- or less competent civil. The English party conference

:10:35.:10:40.

season is over, do you share the consensus view that Ed Miliband

:10:40.:10:47.

season is over, do you share the out best of the three party leaders?

:10:47.:10:51.

I think I probably do, but his overall approval ratings are still

:10:52.:10:56.

minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus ten. And the more the recovery seems

:10:57.:11:00.

minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus to take place, and some of the

:11:00.:11:03.

latest figures are quite amazing, they certainly surprised me, you

:11:03.:11:08.

wonder whether Labour's tactic is right to put all their eggs into the

:11:08.:11:14.

living standards basket. I was looking at car sales, which are

:11:14.:11:18.

booming. If people start to feel better, and they don't yet, but

:11:18.:11:22.

booming. If people start to feel they were, it is tougher to go on

:11:22.:11:30.

about living standards. George Osborne's... You have Ed Miliband

:11:30.:11:32.

making a great thing about living standards, but then they say under

:11:32.:11:37.

their breath, this is global forces, outstripping wage increases. And

:11:37.:11:43.

you're absolutely right, as the economy improves, presumably that

:11:43.:11:47.

will be dealt with, but Miliband's argument will be that there are

:11:47.:11:51.

people suffering, and even if the economy recovers, they will still

:11:51.:11:56.

forces, it is difficult to blame the government for that. Body being

:11:56.:12:01.

noticed now, there is nothing worse for the leader of the opposition

:12:01.:12:06.

than to be not noticed. -- but he is being noticed now. It seems that he

:12:06.:12:11.

in many ways has set the political weather. Look at the number of

:12:11.:12:13.

references to the Labour leader weather. Look at the number of

:12:13.:12:18.

Mr Cameron's speech. And in Mr Obama's speech on a similar topic,

:12:18.:12:25.

living standards. Was the mentioning Ed Miliband?! Oh, he was using the

:12:25.:12:31.

same language, he has not gone that far. If I were Ed Miliband, I would

:12:31.:12:37.

be more worried now, because Labour through the kitchen sink at their

:12:37.:12:41.

conference. They came out with the biggest policy announcements they

:12:41.:12:45.

could, compulsory apprenticeships, the energy freeze on prices, and it

:12:45.:12:49.

generated a poll boost which has fizzled away within ten days. I

:12:49.:12:54.

generated a poll boost which has not know where they go from here.

:12:54.:12:57.

What is significant with Ed Miliband conference beaches, he has set the

:12:57.:13:04.

one nation Britain, and the problem with those speeches is people say,

:13:04.:13:08.

they are fine, they are academic, but what does it mean? What you

:13:08.:13:14.

they are fine, they are academic, now is an intellectual framework

:13:14.:13:16.

that translates into policies. The polls to watch are not the ones

:13:17.:13:20.

after the conferences, but at the end of the month when it has also

:13:20.:13:24.

pulled down. They will tell us where we are going. We will have to go

:13:24.:13:28.

ourselves now. Thank you to our guests. The Daily Politics will

:13:28.:13:31.

ourselves now. Thank you to our back tomorrow at noon on BBC Two,

:13:31.:13:34.

and I will be back on BBC One this time, same time, next week. If it is

:13:34.:13:37.

Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.

:13:37.:13:39.

Andrew Neil and Martyn Oates with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Including Lord Prescott on press regulation, Godfrey Bloom MEP on his departure from UKIP and shadow business secretary Chuka Umunna on the privatisation of Royal Mail. Also on the programme, Margot James MP and City AM's Allister Heath go head to head on 'help to buy'.


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