06/10/2013 Sunday Politics South West


06/10/2013

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Morning, folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics. And in-out EU

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referendum before the general election? We talk to the Tory rebel

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demanding one next year, that is our top story. As government ministers

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prepare to decide how the press should be regulated, what will be

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the impact of this week's row should be regulated, what will be

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between the Daily Mail and Ed Miliband?

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You are talking about the colour of peoples faces?!

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In the South West: Concern government help for home

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buyers could push up house prices. And councils are told to stop using

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parking charges as a money spinner. He will try to force a vote in the

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October. Home Secretary Theresa He will try to force a vote in the

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was asked about his plans on the BBC earlier this morning. I think he has

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got it wrong, I think what we need to do is to negotiate the settlement

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with the European Union and then put that to the people me to decide

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whether to be in or out. Is this a flea bite or a real threat? I think

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the next election, a Conservative Party that will be offering people

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that renegotiation, a new settlement with Europe, looking to the future

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and putting that to the British people in and in or out referendum.

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And what the amendment possibly could do, as James Wharton, who

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And what the amendment possibly putting the Referendum Bill through

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Parliament has said, is it could jeopardise that bill. Adam Afriyie

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joins us now from Millbank studio. Good morning. If the referendum

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would be held next October, it would have to be an in-out question based

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the status quo? There wouldn't be time for a full renegotiation. I

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disagree. By having a referendum in 2014, it gives us 12 months to

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renegotiate, but it kick-started negotiations, because the European

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Union, if they wish us to remain members, would need to accommodate

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and make changes so that they would members, would need to accommodate

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and make changes so that they would persuade the British public to stay,

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strengthens the Prime Minister's hand, and 12 months is ample time

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for that kind of negotiation. You might think that, but Germany has

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not even got a government at the moment, why should they meet our

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timetable? This is going to be incredibly, located renegotiation. I

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think, basically, 80% of people incredibly, located renegotiation. I

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a referendum. More than 50% what a election. British businesses need

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certainty, and we could carry on taking a scan down the road for

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ever, but I have struggled with taking a scan down the road for

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conscience over this one. I do not want to cause trouble, but it is

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essential that Parliament and MPs have the opportunity to search their

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souls and give people a referendum this side of the election. That

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would also bring certainty and clarity for the future, and like I

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said, it strengthens the Prime Minister's hand if it is successful.

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You right in the Mail on Sunday Minister's hand if it is successful.

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the people are not convinced there even will be a referendum, so they

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don't trust David Cameron? I think the headline was not the headline I

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wrote for that piece. What I am You are saying that the British

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people are not convinced. Look, there are too many uncertainties

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here - they may not be convinced the Conservatives will win the election,

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I hope we will, they may not be convinced the renegotiation will be

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good enough, that there will be convinced the renegotiation will be

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referendum. Do you trust David That is why we need to bring the

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referendum forward, there is time to negotiate, and we tidy up the issue

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that has been hanging around for too long. Do you trust David Cameron to

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deliver a referendum in 2017? I Minister, and of course I trust

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deliver a referendum in 2017? I referendum? There as only variables

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in between. What I am doing with referendum? There as only variables

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this amendment, is to try to be referendum? There as only variables

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is that Parliament and every MP referendum? There as only variables

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the opportunity decide whether they want to be sure of a referendum

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within this parliament, or maybe leave it to the vagaries of what may

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within this parliament, or maybe happen in 2015. Supposing you got

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your way, how would you vote? Like Michael Gove, I would vote for us to

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leave as of today, but there will be Michael Gove, I would vote for us to

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an enormous amount of pressure on European Union leaders to come

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forward with proposals. If they European Union leaders to come

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to say, the mandate is not ever closer political union, it is ever

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closer trading harmony, giving us closer trading harmony, giving us

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more border control and control closer trading harmony, giving us

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our legal system, I might change my mind. But this is what needs to

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happen - if we have a referendum in happen - if we have a referendum in

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negotiations to be kick-started happen - if we have a referendum in

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people to argue in or out, and the end result is a stronger Prime

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Minister. Is it true that you have end result is a stronger Prime

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Minister. Is it true that you have got about 80 MPs supporting this? It

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certain, and I think we will see it on hold over the next three or five

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weeks. He will have to ask each individual MP. I am asking you,

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is your motion! There will be other motions coming forward, and I know

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cross-party, for people who want the British public to have a say in

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2014. You know it is not going to get through, the whips will stop

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this from happening. One of the successes, apparently, of your

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party's Manchester conference was that you were not divided over

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Europe anymore, the Europe issue was settled. Here you are bringing it

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Europe anymore, the Europe issue was back to life and pouring petrol

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Europe anymore, the Europe issue was unlicensed troublemaker of the

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Tories? The only struggle I have had is not a fight with my party but

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Tories? The only struggle I have had with my conscience as to whether or

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not I would give Parliament and with my conscience as to whether or

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British people an opportunity to have a say in 2014. I wrestled with

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it, and I decided I wanted people to have that opportunity. It is for

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each individual MP to search their soul, speak to constituents and

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decide whether they want that. You decided it would get you in the

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headlines again. Oh, you are so cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition

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publicity seeker. All I seek is cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition

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would not be able to sleep at night if I did not bring forward this

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opportunity for Britain to have if I did not bring forward this

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say. We have left it far too long. Nobody under the age of 56 has had a

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say. Thanks for joining us, good luck with this continuing struggle

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with your conscience! I will move the seat around and addressed the

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panel, what do you make of it? The party managers must be furious with

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him. I think what this confirms party managers must be furious with

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that David Cameron is incredibly lucky in his enemies. His most

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prolific critics, Nadine Dorries, Peter Bone, Adam Afriyie, even if

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you are very anti-Cameron, you will not think, man, if only they were in

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charge of the party! I think the party managers are not too alarmed.

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They do not take him seriously? No, is not as if the James Wharton bill

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is a work of genius, it is riddled with flaws, anomalies and loopholes.

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It purports to guarantee that a referendum will take place in the

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next Parliament. My understanding of theoretically impossible and that

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all the future government would theoretically impossible and that

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is cancel out that bill with another bill. He does have a point that

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Cameron's plan for a referendum bill. He does have a point that

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nothing like as likely to happen... dangerous. The problem for David

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Cameron is twofold. One, if Ed Miliband says he's going to support

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Adam Afriyie, it will go through. Unlikely that Ed Miliband would

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Adam Afriyie, it will go through. that, but what he might do is say to

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his MPs, ignore this. It may well be significant number of Labour MPs do

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not turn up, and then what you have Conservative backbenchers, and in

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that war you might well find that through, and then the Prime Minister

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has real trouble, because Adam Afriyie says, the Prime Minister

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membership, up what basis and with which mandate? He would not be able

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to get agreement with Nick Clegg or Ed Miliband, so you would be looking

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think he is a Labour mole, that Ed Miliband, so you would be looking

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what I have come to, a Daily Mail style conspiracy theory, it could

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not be more perfect. The prospect of style conspiracy theory, it could

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a referendum on the EU at the same time as Scottish independence is

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has told us he could not sleep at conscience. We could send him some

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pills, I suppose. We know he's going to sack all those lieutenants were

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going around and saying he is the great future and the next leader of

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the Conservative Party. He denied doing that! He would be amazed to

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hear you say that, this is a crisis conversations in corridors, quite an

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operation to get letters into Graham Brady, he said to have letters,

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operation to get letters into Graham 46, but at the moment this campaign

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is being run by Lieutenant of Adam They are disaffected and not happy

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under David Cameron's leadership. There is a whole army of them! I am

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pleased he has outmanoeuvred the awkward squad, and now James Wharton

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is saying, you're going to kill awkward squad, and now James Wharton

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bill. I do not think they are very competence lieutenants. The main

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episode is it will unify a large Conservative Party behind David

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Cameron. On what they hope is a settled position. We still hope

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Cameron. On what they hope is a be talking to John Prescott, who is

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in hole, if you see him, pointing in the direction of the BBC studios! Do

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you want to buy a house? Can you afford the mortgage repayments but

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not the 20% or 30% deposit the mortgage provider is demanding from

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you? The Government says it has mortgage provider is demanding from

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scheme designed for you which is in launching next week, help to buy,

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re-emergence of 95% mortgages, remember them?! But is the policy

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really good for home-buyers or the British economy? Here is Giles.

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Never mind who lives in a house British economy? Here is Giles.

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this, who can afford to buy a house these days? The Government would

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this, who can afford to buy a house like many more people to be able to

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without putting down a crippling like many more people to be able to

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without putting down a crippling amount of money as a deposit, and in

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the spirit of rights to buy, the government has launched help to

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the spirit of rights to buy, the confusingly it is the name for two

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been running since April. Help to government are bringing it in early.

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Let's get in on the inside and take a good look around at what this

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scheme actually has to offer. And why the Government thinks it really

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works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity loan scheme. The idea, nice, is

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works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity it was for new build only, up to a

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value of £600,000. But it is Help to value of £600,000. But it is Help to

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Buy 2 that everyone is looking into right now. It is for any property up

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to a value, again, of £600,000. right now. It is for any property up

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time the Government is guaranteeing that it will take on the first

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losses should the home owner in that it will take on the first

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future failed to make their mortgage payments. Don't worry about that, if

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you are a buyer, you are going to be concerned about coming up with the

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5% deposit and 95% mortgages will be available again in participating

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banks and building societies. And a housing prime mover. You cannot

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get training to 5% mortgage anymore, 90% even, so there are couples in

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our country who have good jobs, decent incomes, they could afford

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the mortgage payments but they failure in our banking market. So

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Jonathan, but I guess for you this is not Homes Under The Hammer, but a

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main impact of this scheme will is not Homes Under The Hammer, but a

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to push up prices, who does that benefit? Mostly rich and all the

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people who own their houses. Plus the banks, of course, because it is

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a subsidy for them. Who loses? People who want to buy a house in

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the future. Moreover, it is a bit odd that the Government says it

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the future. Moreover, it is a bit not OK to borrow to finance schools

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or roads, but it is fine for the effectively, in order to guarantee

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housing market. 2.3 million? I do not think Help to Buy covers that.

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But enter a would-be buyer, will they now be seeing a plethora of

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help to buy mortgages? In a word, no. David Cameron has brought the

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months, and banks were not ready at that stage. Two banks have committed

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to fund the scheme, the Lloyds group and the RBS group, so lenders like

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Halifax, RBS and NatWest. They will be doing the scheme, but even once

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the scheme is up and running you are probably find 95% mortgages on the

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high street because of the guarantee the government is offering. People

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might say this is how we got into a mess in the first place. Why would

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the government want to make those products available then now? It

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the government want to make those more what investment banks were

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doing in the background that caused performed extremely well through the

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depths of the downturn. Is this performed extremely well through the

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game changer? Yes, I have done my best to save over the last few years

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but this has enabled me to make best to save over the last few years

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first purchase. How frustrating best to save over the last few years

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it just renting? Very frustrating, you are throwing away money hand

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over fist, and now I can take that enthusiasm raises a question back at

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the flat. If you are looking for a 95% mortgage, you don't really care

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economy, you are thinking, great, I can buy a house. Yes, if I was a

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house buyer or a bank, I would be pleased, but it will do longer term

:16:15.:16:21.

economic damage. The tricky steps the government are trying to pull

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off is that home-buyers might be so grateful for the opportunity to

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off is that home-buyers might be so their own homes that they reward the

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Government with the vote, while their own homes that they reward the

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the same time the Government tries to sidestep consequences that such a

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Now Conservative MP Margot James, and Allister Heath, editor of City

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It is said by the critics that this scheme will cause a housing bubble.

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Where is the evidence? House prices are more varied. Housing not just in

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London remains overvalued and the problem with this scheme is that it

:17:18.:17:22.

will pump up house prices, it will therefore houses will become even

:17:22.:17:31.

more overvalued. That is a dangerous territory, last time it ended in

:17:31.:17:35.

tears, and now the Government is taking on the risk of that policy.

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What do you say to that? We have a real problem, it takes people on

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average until they are 38 years real problem, it takes people on

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property. The problem is not that they cannot afford it, but they

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cannot afford the deposit. We have got to do something to allow people

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to get their feet on the property ladder and I don't agree it will

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cause a boom in house prices. It would if we were not building any

:18:08.:18:23.

have had a record this year, 12 months to right now, the record

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have had a record this year, 12 the last ten years. These are not

:18:34.:18:34.

the statistics I have seen, but the last ten years. These are not

:18:34.:18:41.

new supply is coming up. It is starting to creep up. We don't see

:18:41.:18:46.

enough house building, need to build more houses and that is a solution

:18:46.:18:51.

to this problem. You are right, people cannot afford to buy homes

:18:51.:18:54.

and the reason is there are not enough good quality homes in the

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deposits are so high is because secondly the Government has passed

:19:00.:19:04.

laws to make the banking system secondly the Government has passed

:19:04.:19:08.

prudent, telling them to put more wrong. Now suddenly the Government

:19:08.:19:16.

is not happy with the outcome of its own rules and is trying to create

:19:16.:19:20.

these subsidies to circumvent the rules it has put in place. It is not

:19:20.:19:26.

a subsidy. Don't forget banks have to pay a charge in order to take

:19:26.:19:32.

part in this loan scheme and that the... You are guaranteeing the

:19:32.:19:39.

money. Yes, but the fear is worked out on a commercial basis. The

:19:39.:19:42.

taxpayer is protected. Why? You out on a commercial basis. The

:19:42.:19:49.

guaranteeing £12 billion worth of mortgages per year. Yes but the

:19:49.:19:55.

change in the whole mortgage basis has been made a few years ago in

:19:55.:20:00.

response of the crash. They made the distressed test on people applying

:20:00.:20:03.

for mortgages much higher and you twice... So it will not be like

:20:03.:20:13.

these self certification mortgages handed out in America that caused

:20:13.:20:20.

the sub-prime crisis? Pigment bit like that but the banks are rightly

:20:20.:20:24.

asking for bigger deposits, they know there is a big chance house

:20:24.:20:29.

prices could fall if interest rates eventually, so they are demanding

:20:29.:20:33.

bigger deposits. The Government eventually, so they are demanding

:20:33.:20:39.

circumventing this is being passed eventually, so they are demanding

:20:39.:20:41.

on to the taxpayers which is why it is a dangerous policy. Instead they

:20:41.:20:46.

should be massively accelerating Planning permission is much easier

:20:46.:20:55.

to get now, we have seen a 49% increase in planning permission

:20:55.:20:58.

to get now, we have seen a 49% a new building over the last year, a

:20:58.:20:59.

huge increase. In the figures I a new building over the last year, a

:20:59.:21:05.

recently, they showed new start a new building over the last year, a

:21:05.:21:09.

the 12 months to the autumn were only about 110,000 which is the

:21:09.:21:12.

figure you inherited, which was only about 110,000 which is the

:21:12.:21:18.

an all-time low in 2010. New house built in the last quarter are third

:21:18.:21:24.

up on the time last year. You have relaxation of planning laws and

:21:24.:21:29.

up on the time last year. You have other policies the Government put

:21:29.:21:31.

into effect last year to take effect and it is coming through now. I

:21:31.:21:36.

agree, if we weren't building more houses, if the construction sector

:21:36.:21:42.

advantage of the increased demand, there would be a risk. David Cameron

:21:42.:21:49.

says you are snob and it is only snobs who dislike Help To Buy. They

:21:49.:21:57.

don't have the bank of mum and dad, people like that will finally get on

:21:57.:22:04.

the housing ladder. That is complete nonsense. We need a sustainable

:22:04.:22:07.

housing market where there is a large amount of construction, like

:22:07.:22:12.

in the 1930s for example, where large numbers of proper family homes

:22:12.:22:19.

were being built for people. House prices were pushed down and people

:22:19.:22:25.

could afford houses. You are now encouraging people to take out a 95%

:22:25.:22:30.

mortgage, I thought that was a bad idea, so supposing interest rates go

:22:30.:22:39.

struggle, and supposing house prices fall by more than 5%, I am now faced

:22:39.:22:44.

with negative equity and soaring interest rates that I cannot afford.

:22:44.:22:49.

95% mortgage, if you can afford interest rates that I cannot afford.

:22:49.:22:55.

repayments, you will be fine. What happens when interest rates rise?

:22:55.:23:01.

They have got to rise a lot before you get into trouble. People are

:23:01.:23:03.

already affording rent which is you get into trouble. People are

:23:03.:23:09.

lot higher than mortgage payments. You will not be able to get into

:23:09.:23:16.

this scheme unless you can afford repayments double what they are

:23:16.:23:20.

this scheme unless you can afford the moment. The Conservatives should

:23:20.:23:25.

limelight last week but there was an unwelcome intruder in the shape

:23:25.:23:30.

limelight last week but there was an row between Ed Miliband and the

:23:31.:23:33.

Daily Mail. Just over a week ago the claiming that Ed Miliband's Father

:23:33.:23:41.

Ralph hated Britain. They showed a picture of his father's gravestone

:23:41.:23:48.

with the caption, grave socialist. They then removed the photo and

:23:48.:23:52.

with the caption, grave socialist. Ed Miliband the right to reply on

:23:53.:23:57.

printed an editorial alongside it saying they stood by every word

:23:57.:24:01.

printed an editorial alongside it published an fair headline. It also

:24:01.:24:06.

reporter had gate-crashed a private memorial service for Ed Miliband's

:24:06.:24:11.

uncle in a London hospital, for which the paper has now apologised,

:24:11.:24:15.

but Ed Miliband has called on the hard look at the way his papers

:24:15.:24:24.

but Ed Miliband has called on the run. This comes a week before a

:24:24.:24:31.

but Ed Miliband has called on the Joining us now from Hull, John

:24:31.:24:31.

Prescott. Does this row between Joining us now from Hull, John

:24:31.:24:43.

reinforce the case for tough, new certainly influences the opinion

:24:43.:24:50.

about that but that is more of Paul Dacre's doing. Ed Miliband rang

:24:50.:24:53.

about that but that is more of Paul while I was in Strasbourg making

:24:53.:24:54.

sure my complaints were nothing while I was in Strasbourg making

:24:54.:24:59.

do with press regulation and he while I was in Strasbourg making

:24:59.:25:05.

right. This argument is not about politicians and media people, it is

:25:05.:25:07.

about ordinary people that love politicians and media people, it is

:25:07.:25:16.

and dealt with. All of these cases affected individual people and they

:25:16.:25:21.

are the ones that need to have justice in this matter. Next week we

:25:21.:25:27.

will be hearing whether the Privy Council will be reporting on the

:25:27.:25:33.

proposal to replace it. Are you agreeing then that what the mail did

:25:33.:25:49.

with its Miliband article was a matter of judgement? Yes, and the

:25:49.:26:02.

with its Miliband article was a conclusion that the relationship

:26:02.:26:05.

between the press, the police and politicians should be governed,

:26:05.:26:13.

between the press, the police and proposal given by half the press

:26:14.:26:19.

industry that that does not meet the Leveson requirement and I suspect

:26:19.:26:23.

the Privy Council this week will have to reject that, and I hope

:26:23.:26:26.

the Privy Council this week will will because it is not consistent

:26:26.:26:28.

with the Leveson report which the Prime Minister said he supported.

:26:28.:26:34.

You attacked the mail in your column today but your paper went through

:26:34.:26:41.

the Cameron family bins to see what nappies they used for their disabled

:26:41.:26:45.

son. Isn't that far more offensive than what the Daily Mail wrote about

:26:45.:26:47.

Ralph Miliband? It probably is, than what the Daily Mail wrote about

:26:47.:26:56.

couldn't defend that. I have had Haven't we all? Yes, but we are

:26:56.:27:09.

editors who acts unilaterally. Paul Dacre is running this thing in the

:27:09.:27:23.

judgement and some accountability which the press have accepted the

:27:23.:27:33.

old PCC is no good. They are playing for time because if they reject

:27:33.:27:37.

old PCC is no good. They are playing this week there is 12 months until

:27:37.:27:40.

you can consider a parliamentary alternative and then you are near

:27:40.:27:44.

the election and you begin to bully the leaders. That is how they have

:27:44.:27:48.

been successful in putting off recommendations. Maybe my memory is

:27:48.:27:58.

fading but did you or anybody else in the Labour Party object to the

:27:58.:28:04.

Sunday Mirror's behaviour? I didn't know about it. I would just say

:28:04.:28:09.

Sunday Mirror's behaviour? I didn't is wrong if that is what they did.

:28:09.:28:11.

As you said, you have the same position when they go through your

:28:11.:28:17.

rubbish bins, I think that is wrong. We have Leveson set up by the Prime

:28:17.:28:22.

Minister to look at the cultures and practices and the unilateral action

:28:22.:28:25.

of editors and he came forward with Parliament under a compromise of the

:28:25.:28:39.

frankly, but we have agreed to go frankly, but we have agreed to go

:28:39.:28:44.

Government set up in charge at the same time rushed through the press

:28:44.:28:51.

box? It looks like a fix, like they are using the Royal Charter as a

:28:51.:28:59.

means of delaying everything. They have now said they are going to

:28:59.:29:02.

introduce their own independent charter. This industry does not

:29:02.:29:08.

introduce their own independent accountability. We know Alistair

:29:08.:29:09.

Campbell and Ed Miliband's officers accountability. We know Alistair

:29:09.:29:14.

are working closely on the assault of the Mail. What is the endgame for

:29:14.:29:24.

this? Is it the head of Paul Dacre? He is not an acceptable character to

:29:24.:29:36.

me, and he needs to be taking account. When Ed Miliband rang me it

:29:36.:29:41.

was to say, don't let these arguments drift into press

:29:41.:29:44.

regulation, he wanted the argument of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband

:29:44.:29:58.

after Paul Dacre's head? No, he can stay there. It is like with Murdoch,

:29:58.:30:00.

after Paul Dacre's head? No, he can we were not attacking him but what

:30:00.:30:04.

is papers were doing. To that extent, what they are doing about

:30:04.:30:08.

ordinary people, not just big politicians who can look after

:30:08.:30:12.

themselves. We know, with the bad cases he had to deal with, they

:30:12.:30:16.

might get libel action, which the press say, but they pretty well

:30:16.:30:20.

destroyed their lives. That is about judgment. If you say, as Paul Dacre

:30:20.:30:26.

got good judgment? I would say no, he will have to live with it.

:30:26.:30:31.

Thank you for joining us, he did not even have to go to the BBC studios,

:30:31.:30:36.

we sent a truck there for him. What is the endgame in this? Whether the

:30:36.:30:41.

Labour Party is trying to make this an issue press regulation are not,

:30:41.:30:45.

this is where it is going. We have the criminal trial involving Andy

:30:45.:30:49.

Coulson coming up, the Privy Council discussing press radiation before

:30:49.:30:51.

the end of the year, and the question is, what is political

:30:51.:30:55.

impact? My hunch, it is an unfashionable view, is that the

:30:55.:30:59.

total at yum elated political impact of the Leveson story over the past

:30:59.:31:02.

several years, hacking and everything, is close to zero,

:31:02.:31:09.

because most voters do not care, and those who do care believe that all

:31:09.:31:13.

parties are roughly complicit in being too close to editors and

:31:13.:31:18.

proprietors. You said that Adam Afriyie was a Labour mould, with a

:31:18.:31:24.

smile. Is the Daily Mail also a Labour mole? This has been a dream

:31:24.:31:28.

for Ed Miliband, I took on Murdoch, I am taking on the energy companies

:31:28.:31:34.

and now the evil Daily Mail! I think... I should say I used to work

:31:34.:31:38.

for the Daily Mail, but when they printed the right of reply, they

:31:38.:31:42.

surrounded it with a big two fingers up at Ed. If they had not done

:31:42.:31:44.

surrounded it with a big two fingers that, they would not be in this

:31:44.:31:49.

position. The poll in the Sunday Times this morning shows 72% think

:31:49.:31:53.

the Daily Mail was wrong and backed Mr Miliband's demand for an apology.

:31:53.:31:58.

If you come to define and your dad, people are naturally going to do

:31:58.:32:02.

this, but it took all the coverage away from the Tory conference, the

:32:02.:32:05.

media loves covering itself, here we are doing it again, this has been a

:32:05.:32:12.

dream for Mr Miliband. The political significance of this is that David

:32:12.:32:15.

Cameron said in the House of Commons that he wanted to try to find some

:32:15.:32:18.

common ground between the three party Royal Charter and the

:32:18.:32:24.

so-called press industry version. What the Daily Mail has done is

:32:24.:32:28.

ensured that the Prime Minister is not going to be able to do that.

:32:28.:32:31.

What is going to happen this week is that the press Royal Charter has to

:32:31.:32:35.

be considered first, and that will probably be rejected. The Privy

:32:35.:32:42.

Council will reject it. Then the three party Royal Charter will come

:32:42.:32:47.

up, but meanwhile the press will set up their own regulatory body because

:32:47.:32:51.

the Royal Charter is not a proper statutory underpinning, they will be

:32:51.:32:52.

able to go ahead with that. There statutory underpinning, they will be

:32:52.:32:57.

will be the legal basis for the oversight of the oversight body, and

:32:57.:33:01.

it will basically just be an ambassador that will not be

:33:01.:33:07.

resolved. As you say, no-one much cares about this outside of the

:33:07.:33:10.

profession and a few media watchers. But this has been great politics for

:33:10.:33:18.

Ed Miliband. It is only great politics if he scores a great

:33:18.:33:25.

victory. I take your view that people are cynical about it. But the

:33:25.:33:29.

narrative is, I am the chap who stands up to vested interests. But

:33:30.:33:34.

all those vested interests are people that you would expect a

:33:34.:33:36.

left-wing politician to want to take on. It is also more significant

:33:36.:33:45.

about who he has stood up for, and the person he has studied for is his

:33:45.:33:48.

father. Maybe people thought of him as a Marxist, now they think of him

:33:48.:33:54.

as war hero. He gets to the crux of matters, you know! You are watching

:33:54.:34:00.

the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be

:34:00.:34:01.

speaking to Godfrey Hello, I'm Martyn Oates.

:34:02.:34:19.

Coming up on the Sunday Politics in the South West:

:34:19.:34:22.

The councils being told to stop using parking charges as a cash cow.

:34:22.:34:28.

And for the next 20 minutes I'm joined by Adrian Sanders, the

:34:28.:34:31.

Liberal Democrat MP for Torbay and Councillor Richard Westlake, leader

:34:31.:34:34.

of the Labour group on Devon County Council.

:34:34.:34:37.

Welcome. This week it emerged that Devon and

:34:37.:34:40.

Cornwall's Police and Crime Commissioner is spending 12% more

:34:40.:34:43.

on his staff than the old Police Authority. Meanwhile, a former

:34:43.:34:50.

Conservative leader of Devon County Council said introducing Police

:34:50.:34:55.

Commissioners was a mistake. I was chairman of the Devon and Cornwall

:34:55.:34:59.

police authority and it worked extremely well. I can't think that

:34:59.:35:03.

Policing has improved one iota since the commissioners were

:35:03.:35:07.

appointed. The commissioners are alien to our system in Devon and

:35:07.:35:12.

Cornwall. It emanated in not —— it emanated in America and we were far

:35:12.:35:17.

better as we were. If you have senior Tories

:35:17.:35:21.

criticising the existence of Police And Crime Commissioner has, it has

:35:21.:35:24.

come to something. Were we better the way we work? I think we were.

:35:24.:35:30.

Simon Day should be listened to. He has years of public service to the

:35:30.:35:34.

people of Devon and the south—west and he knows what he is talking

:35:34.:35:39.

about. I think he is right. This new system was supposed to make

:35:39.:35:46.

them more accountable to the public and the public are having to pay

:35:46.:35:55.

more for less police. Part of making the police more visible and

:35:55.:36:01.

consulting nor is one of the reasons for having this. I think

:36:01.:36:06.

the police authority did its fair share of consulting in the past. I

:36:06.:36:10.

don't think it is justified at a time of austerity when we are

:36:10.:36:18.

having bobbies taken off the beat. The most important thing is

:36:18.:36:21.

operational capacity. If you need more people in the backroom been

:36:21.:36:26.

clearly this experiment is not working. Labour was not a fan of

:36:26.:36:29.

the police commissioners, should you be committed to getting rid of

:36:29.:36:32.

them if you why elected after the next general election? We should

:36:32.:36:37.

certainly have a look at it. The election cost £100 million which

:36:37.:36:43.

everyone agrees was a fiasco. Really we are not seeing yet what

:36:43.:36:46.

we were told we were going to get on the tin. It is very important

:36:46.:36:51.

that we have to look at this. The whole problem is that if you want

:36:51.:36:55.

to change things and you change it again, then you always have a cost.

:36:55.:36:59.

That is a real worry. What people are telling me and I am sure they

:37:00.:37:03.

are saying the same to Adrian is we want to see police on our streets,

:37:03.:37:08.

looking after us, walking the streets and fighting crime. That is

:37:08.:37:12.

what they are talking about. The other area they are concerned about

:37:12.:37:19.

his PCF those who do a fantastic job. PCF sos they give so much to

:37:19.:37:30.

the community and that thing that is so important.

:37:30.:37:32.

The Prime Minister has announced that the government is bringing

:37:32.:37:35.

forward the second phase of its Help To Buy housing scheme. But

:37:35.:37:38.

with tens of thousands of people on waiting lists for affordable homes

:37:38.:37:41.

in the region, campaigners say much more radical action is needed to

:37:41.:37:44.

tackle the housing crisis. Tamsin Melville reports.

:37:44.:37:47.

If a first—time buyer was buying that, whereas before they would

:37:47.:37:51.

need... Business has been picking up for this estate agent recently

:37:51.:37:55.

but he is not sure that the Government subsidising mortgages is

:37:55.:38:00.

the answer took housing issues. The main problem we have with house

:38:01.:38:04.

prices in Cornwall as a we are in a small and popular and sought—after

:38:04.:38:08.

geographical area and what we need is more properties built. The Help

:38:08.:38:14.

To Buy scheme was announced in this year's budget. It allows homeowners

:38:14.:38:19.

with a small deposit to get a 95% mortgage. It is backed by a

:38:19.:38:22.

government guarantee and will now be available on new and existing

:38:22.:38:28.

properties in England, worth up to £600,000. As prime minister I am

:38:28.:38:31.

not going to stand back while people's aspirations to get on the

:38:31.:38:35.

housing ladder and own their own home is been trashed, that is why

:38:35.:38:39.

we need to act. Critics say would not enough houses to go round the

:38:39.:38:42.

Government's strategy to help buyers could fuel a housing bubble.

:38:43.:38:47.

This development near Falmouth is under way but in Cornwall alone

:38:47.:38:52.

there are nearly 13,000 homes with planning permission that remain

:38:52.:38:57.

unfilled. With recent reports the south—west is alone in seeing a

:38:57.:39:01.

fall in new build, some argue their needs to be a radical change in

:39:01.:39:06.

thinking. There are plenty of plots, if you like, with planning

:39:06.:39:09.

permission that simply do not go ahead because we have managed to

:39:09.:39:13.

confuse social housing on the one hand with market housing on the

:39:13.:39:18.

other. In my view it would be much better to separate them completely

:39:18.:39:24.

so that affordable housing for rent and shared ownership is one thing

:39:24.:39:29.

and market housing is something different. He believes there is

:39:29.:39:32.

nothing standing in the way of local communities having the homes

:39:32.:39:37.

at prices they can afford. It should be financed by a combination

:39:37.:39:41.

of the Local Enterprise Partnership and local authority pension funds.

:39:41.:39:45.

There is no need for any more government grants and no need for

:39:45.:39:52.

any more public spending. Those who lead the local enterprise

:39:52.:39:55.

partnerships say it is not that simple. They are not all things to

:39:55.:39:58.

everything. We will have a small amount of money to invest but it

:39:58.:40:02.

needs to be strategically invested to get the best value for money

:40:02.:40:06.

that we could possibly have. Throwing all of that at an area of

:40:06.:40:10.

market failure such as affordable housing is not the answer to our

:40:10.:40:15.

budgets. Here there has not been much interested help to buy so far

:40:15.:40:18.

but with a long—term housing solution seemingly a long way off,

:40:18.:40:22.

there are hopes it could get the market on track.

:40:22.:40:25.

Tamsin Melville reporting and Cornwall Conservative MP George

:40:25.:40:31.

Eustice joins us to discuss. Welcome to the programme. Figures

:40:31.:40:35.

from the National House Building Council show that new builds in

:40:35.:40:39.

Cornwall are static or in decline. That is against the background of

:40:39.:40:43.

20% increase across the country last year. It is pretty poor and

:40:43.:40:48.

pretty worrying, isn't it? The Government has a number of policies

:40:48.:40:52.

to increase housebuilding and we have a home shortage and we have

:40:52.:40:56.

people who are unable to get a home of their own. The new homes Bonas

:40:56.:41:00.

has been quite important to encourage local authorities to take

:41:01.:41:06.

the right approach. When we do read —— when we do new—build we should

:41:06.:41:09.

focus on brownfield sites first rather than green field sites like

:41:09.:41:15.

my conserve —— constituency. Would you accept Labour's recitation that

:41:15.:41:19.

you have got the balance wrong with the emphasis you are placing on

:41:19.:41:25.

building rather than facilitating people buying existing houses? We

:41:25.:41:29.

have got the balance right. These figures do not suggest it. We

:41:29.:41:33.

abolish the regional spacial strategies that Labour had that

:41:33.:41:36.

were putting unsustainable housing targets on Cornwall. In my own

:41:36.:41:42.

patch we have plans to build 11,000 houses when there is only 8,000 now

:41:42.:41:46.

and we scrapped the targets and told the local authority was up to

:41:46.:41:49.

them to decide what they needed and they have halved the housing target.

:41:49.:41:53.

We have got it right in terms of planning. We should support people

:41:53.:41:57.

when it comes to buying their new home. One I bought my first flat 10

:41:57.:42:02.

years ago 95% mortgages were normal. It was easy to buy a flat. The did

:42:02.:42:06.

not have to have huge savings. The reality now with that unless you

:42:06.:42:10.

are very wealthy or you have wealthy parents, you are denied the

:42:10.:42:14.

opportunity to own your own home. That cannot be right and we have to

:42:14.:42:17.

support people and help them by making these 95% mortgages which

:42:17.:42:22.

used to be normal available to young people now. Labour makes

:42:22.:42:26.

great play of the fact we are building fewer houses now since the

:42:26.:42:30.

1920s. I have looked into the figures and it appears to be true.

:42:30.:42:35.

The problem is the advice is coming from you in a Labour when

:42:35.:42:38.

housebuilding flat line when you were in government as well. Why do

:42:38.:42:43.

you have the solution now? It is quite important to realise that we

:42:43.:42:49.

do need to have affordable housing. I will say that in terms of council

:42:49.:42:53.

housing we came to this very late and it was at the end of the Labour

:42:53.:42:57.

government that we actually started to see an increase in have —— in a

:42:57.:43:01.

council house building. We have seen in the last three or four

:43:01.:43:05.

years a complete shutdown in some ways because of all the problems we

:43:05.:43:09.

have had with planning regulations and the change in the spatial

:43:09.:43:13.

strategy so we are not seeing... You think has a housing is the way

:43:13.:43:18.

forward? It is true that government facilitated small house will ——

:43:18.:43:22.

some small amount of council house building. You can I have complete,

:43:22.:43:26.

you have got to have a mixture. For councils to have the opportunity

:43:26.:43:31.

for them to develop especially affordable housing which is the key.

:43:31.:43:34.

What we are seeing now is young couples who cannot get on to the

:43:34.:43:38.

housing ladder. What they do do, however, is they are paying rent

:43:38.:43:42.

that is far more than what a mortgage would have been. That is a

:43:42.:43:46.

real problem. Should we build more council housing? We should set the

:43:46.:43:51.

build more affordable housing, more rented accommodation. We are

:43:51.:43:56.

talking about regulated rent, secured Tennessee housing. If we

:43:56.:44:00.

could change the laws on private rented, we could open up the market

:44:00.:44:07.

where people can rent on seven—year or 14 year agreements and that is

:44:07.:44:11.

not something we have here. The private sector could be used to

:44:11.:44:14.

build some of that. The important thing, and I despair when I hear

:44:14.:44:18.

the chairman of the early be not recognising the importance of

:44:18.:44:20.

affordable housing, of keeping skilled people in our labour market

:44:21.:44:25.

and attracting people in to invest in the area. Instead they move away

:44:25.:44:32.

and that is no good for our economy. The LEP has other responsibilities

:44:32.:44:35.

and this discussion has demonstrated that it is pretty

:44:35.:44:38.

complex. Most people I have discussed it with have said there

:44:38.:44:42.

is no one solution and the exception to that seems to be one

:44:42.:44:47.

person who thinks there is. Anything that offers a solution

:44:47.:44:51.

needs to be investigated. We get caught up in a numbers game. It is

:44:51.:44:55.

about meeting local housing need. We are in a high property price

:44:55.:45:00.

area with lower than average wages. We need more affordable housing

:45:00.:45:04.

than would otherwise be the case. Leaving it up to the market I am

:45:04.:45:08.

afraid has put us in the position we are in at the moment. Just

:45:08.:45:13.

bringing George back. On this silver bullet. A I remember

:45:13.:45:18.

discussing this with him about two years ago when he was the first

:45:18.:45:24.

chairman we had a of the MEP for a brief period. It is an interesting

:45:24.:45:29.

idea. What he was saying was let us not chuck public money at this but

:45:29.:45:33.

have their Local Enterprise Partnership facilitator Newmarket

:45:33.:45:36.

way you might get pension funds who are fearful of where they are going

:45:36.:45:40.

to invest their money in a credit crunch, get them to invest in large

:45:40.:45:44.

housing estates where they can have a guaranteed income over a period

:45:44.:45:47.

of time and er thing that is an interesting idea and others have

:45:47.:45:52.

also mentioned this. I think there is scope for this. It is a shame

:45:52.:45:56.

that the Local Enterprise Partnership did not recognise the

:45:56.:45:59.

benefit and the importance of housing to the Cornish economy of.

:45:59.:46:03.

The business community were reluctant to get involved in this

:46:03.:46:07.

because they did not understand the relevance of it but if you are a

:46:07.:46:10.

construction company or a plant hire company that having a vibrant

:46:10.:46:14.

construction industry is important. Thank you very much, we have to

:46:14.:46:17.

leave that there. This week there was more talk about

:46:17.:46:20.

putting up council tax in Cornwall. Cash—strapped authorities have few

:46:21.:46:23.

other options for raising revenue. And one which the Government now

:46:23.:46:26.

says they shouldn't be abusing is parking charges. John Henderson

:46:26.:46:28.

reports. Paying for parking is right up

:46:28.:46:32.

there with the things we love to hate. I see it as a tax on

:46:32.:46:38.

motorists. The impact that it is happening on our local communities

:46:38.:46:42.

I think it is having a detrimental effect. Generally it is ridiculous.

:46:42.:46:47.

It is too dear. If I want to go and pick up a newspaper it costs me a

:46:47.:46:51.

pound to park. Some news from Liskeard. They could be from any

:46:51.:46:57.

car park in the region. It is not cheap to park here, £1 for up to

:46:57.:47:02.

two hours and if you have a £2 coin then there is no change. Perhaps it

:47:02.:47:06.

is one of the reasons why Cornwall council is making eye—watering

:47:06.:47:12.

amounts from its car parks. Eye— watering equals just under £800,

:47:12.:47:16.

put in Cornwall in the top 10 nationally when it comes to profits

:47:16.:47:20.

from car parks. Regionally Cornwallis way out in front. Exeter

:47:20.:47:24.

and Torbay make half as much but are still pretty flush. Others are

:47:24.:47:28.

not doing too badly either, even those near the bottom are making a

:47:28.:47:33.

profit and those riches have not gone unnoticed. What this is about

:47:33.:47:37.

is it is about raking in pretty large sums of money to fill the

:47:37.:47:43.

council coffers. The law is pretty clear. It says there you are not

:47:43.:47:47.

allowed to do that. Cornwall council has said without the

:47:47.:47:51.

largesse from its car parks it would have to cut services and

:47:51.:47:56.

raise council tax. Yes, we are in the top 10 and they don't think it

:47:56.:47:59.

is a surprise. The money we get from parking of course helps us to

:47:59.:48:04.

maintain our car parks and our roads and Allestree lives, our

:48:04.:48:07.

hedges and all the services that people of Cornwall rely on. We do

:48:07.:48:12.

make a surplus and it is put to good use otherwise we would have to

:48:12.:48:16.

find the money from somewhere else. It is a similar story in Torbay

:48:16.:48:20.

where the council openly admits it is trying to maximise income at a

:48:20.:48:25.

time when budgets are tied. Latest figures show the car parts raise

:48:25.:48:31.

£3.7 million a year. Officers say any surpluses put back into the

:48:31.:48:34.

council's overall budget and can be used in the same way as council tax

:48:34.:48:39.

income. They introduced parking meters in 2009 and they bring in

:48:39.:48:44.

over £1 million a year, money it is using to help pay for pension a bus

:48:44.:48:48.

travel. The rules regarding on— street parking revenue are less

:48:48.:48:52.

flexible and some councils have found themselves in trouble. We saw

:48:52.:48:56.

in the High Court a few months ago that Barnet council was found to

:48:56.:49:00.

have acted illegally by setting parking charges not to manage

:49:00.:49:04.

congestion or cover their parking costs but to raise general revenue.

:49:04.:49:08.

We have every sympathy with cash— strapped councils but we have no

:49:08.:49:11.

sympathy with them if they think they can essentially tax motorists

:49:11.:49:15.

to make up the shortfall. Putting up parking charges is tempting for

:49:15.:49:20.

councils, partly because it appears so easy compared to raising council

:49:20.:49:26.

tax. But there are risks. With the government promising to get tough

:49:26.:49:29.

and the public suspicious about where all the money goes.

:49:29.:49:34.

John Henderson reporting. Earlier I spoke the the Local Government

:49:34.:49:36.

Minister Brandon Lewis and asked him for the Government's message to

:49:36.:49:39.

councils like Torbay and Cornwall which openly admit they're using

:49:39.:49:45.

parking charges as a revenue stream. What we say to them is you have to

:49:45.:49:48.

look really carefully at how you develop your area in the future.

:49:48.:49:52.

First the you should not be making profits from parking charges, that

:49:52.:49:57.

is clear. Councils in the future are funded primarily through

:49:57.:50:00.

business rates. We have changed the system this year so any growth in

:50:00.:50:04.

business rates goes back to the district councils directly and a

:50:04.:50:07.

benefit with every little bit of growth. To see a town—centre grow

:50:07.:50:11.

and see business rates grow, we need to see retail rates in the

:50:11.:50:15.

High Street grow. We need to get more people into the High Street

:50:15.:50:18.

and the town centres and parking charges can be a disincentive to

:50:18.:50:23.

put people off coming year. We want people in the town centres and

:50:23.:50:26.

councils should one people there. The best way to do that is to have

:50:26.:50:31.

really good, sensible, attractive parking policies. Actually this is

:50:31.:50:36.

a lot more carrot and stick. Eric Pickles says you should stop doing

:50:36.:50:39.

it because it is bad per se, but this is rather a different argument,

:50:39.:50:44.

this is an incentive. Absolutely, it is both. It is absolutely an

:50:44.:50:49.

incentive. Get more people endure Townsend and your high streets and

:50:49.:50:52.

that will attract more people to your shops which is more money for

:50:52.:50:55.

the council. He declared council should not overcharge for parking

:50:55.:51:00.

charges. That is not what they are about. And they are there to make

:51:00.:51:04.

sure people park sensibly and reasonably. He it is not really

:51:04.:51:06.

what people should be doing but there is nothing to do to stop it

:51:07.:51:10.

other than offering an incentive. We offer an incentive and we are

:51:10.:51:13.

making it clear to councils that we are looking closely at it. We want

:51:13.:51:17.

to make sure that high streets and town centres are attractive places

:51:17.:51:21.

for people and parking charges are part of that. Do you accept the

:51:21.:51:26.

councils are saying that we have throws and council tax, as we have

:51:26.:51:29.

been asked to do and we need to get the money somewhere. If we stop

:51:29.:51:32.

making this money from parking we must put council tax up. The best

:51:32.:51:37.

way for councils to see an increase in their income is an increase in

:51:37.:51:41.

business rates. An increase in business rates comes from more

:51:41.:51:44.

business is doing better and be more successful in the High Street

:51:44.:51:48.

and the town centres. I come back to the secular but positive

:51:48.:51:52.

argument. That means week or more people in town centres and high

:51:52.:51:54.

streets and the easiest way to attract them is have a good offer

:51:54.:51:58.

and a huge part of that is an attractive parking policy. Just to

:51:58.:52:02.

be clear, you accept that councils need to be persuaded by this

:52:02.:52:06.

initial incentive rather than being forced by government. We have been

:52:06.:52:11.

clear to councils that they should not use the parking charges to will

:52:11.:52:15.

raise charges. But effectively they are. They should not be doing that.

:52:15.:52:20.

The law allows them to so clearly they will have their finances are

:52:20.:52:24.

tight. Actually the law is really clear. Parking charges are not

:52:24.:52:28.

supposed be a punitive tax and parking notices are not supposed to

:52:28.:52:33.

be a punitive tax. But the law says if the council brazenly uses ate

:52:33.:52:38.

they are on the wrong side of the law but if they say they have a car

:52:38.:52:43.

park which is self— financing and they have a large surplus the

:52:43.:52:46.

making do what they like with the money, so they are likely to do

:52:46.:52:49.

that. That is where councils will lose out because shoppers will not

:52:49.:52:54.

go into town centres. But you cannot legally stop them doing it?

:52:54.:52:57.

The ultimate issue is about whether people are in the town centres. If

:52:57.:53:01.

they are not then councils lose out because they look shops and

:53:01.:53:04.

business rates and none of us want to say that. They should want to

:53:04.:53:08.

attract people into the town centres with good, attractive

:53:08.:53:11.

sensible parking structures. Thank you very much.

:53:11.:53:18.

Adrian, are you with the the government and the motorist or the

:53:18.:53:24.

council's? I am with keeping vibrant town centres. If Torbay is

:53:24.:53:29.

now getting £1 million from the parking meters they put in, that is

:53:29.:53:34.

£1 million that is not going into shop tills. If I was running the

:53:34.:53:38.

council then I am not sure if I would be able to do anything

:53:38.:53:41.

differently because of being a cash—strapped unitary authority.

:53:41.:53:45.

This is quite a complex issue. If you have a town or parish council

:53:45.:53:50.

that set the precept and it can be spent directly on whatever you want

:53:50.:53:54.

which is why you find car—parking charges are not a cash cow in those

:53:54.:53:59.

areas. If you are a unit tree you have statutory duties so you have

:53:59.:54:03.

to pay for them and what goes over goes towards things like parking

:54:03.:54:05.

and gardens and all the rest of it and the only thing you really

:54:05.:54:10.

control income wise beyond your council tax is car parking charges.

:54:10.:54:14.

Richard, you obviously do not write council but you sit on a council

:54:14.:54:18.

and are involved in these decisions. Well, the off—street parking is a

:54:18.:54:24.

city council in Exeter and the on— street is the county council.

:54:24.:54:28.

Yesterday I was reading through some papers and I noticed that it

:54:28.:54:36.

was about to perform million pounds —— £2.4 million. That we have in

:54:36.:54:43.

parking charges. The problem that Eric Pickles did not say was over

:54:43.:54:47.

the last four years we have had £100 million taken out of our

:54:47.:54:50.

budget and now we have been told we have another £100 million being

:54:50.:54:55.

taken out of our budget so it is balancing how we actually maintain

:54:55.:54:59.

enforcement and maintain our roads and structure and them worry I have

:54:59.:55:03.

is the fact that we are not going to be able to do those things in

:55:03.:55:06.

future. That was another issue we did not get time to get round

:55:06.:55:10.

Now our regular round—up of the political week in 60 seconds.

:55:10.:55:18.

Confirmation that the region is to lose all of its direct flights to

:55:18.:55:23.

London is met with dismay by businesses. I cannot say that I can

:55:23.:55:26.

support further growth within Cornwall at this stage. Meanwhile

:55:26.:55:31.

train passengers to the capital will continue to travel courtesy of

:55:31.:55:35.

First Great Western for the next two years. No problem with First

:55:35.:55:39.

Great Western, it is the agreement with the Government and the lack of

:55:39.:55:42.

any investment in Bristol and the next three years. Buses, roads,

:55:42.:55:46.

libraries and support for vulnerable people are all in the

:55:46.:55:49.

firing line in Cornwall at the Council reveals next year's draft

:55:49.:55:54.

budget. In Devon day—care centres face closure. For those people who

:55:54.:55:59.

need the kind of care that only day centres can offer and a respite for

:55:59.:56:06.

carers, they are essential. And councils across the region asked to

:56:06.:56:11.

stop employing staff on zero hours contracts. I really do feel we

:56:11.:56:15.

ought to stop it and make sure that people have fixed—term contracts on

:56:15.:56:22.

decent wages. So, Adrian, broadly, more bad news

:56:22.:56:28.

for the transport sector. It is a problem for us being on the

:56:28.:56:31.

periphery of the United Kingdom and is vital to have good transport

:56:31.:56:35.

links. The three ingredients of success are a skilled workforce,

:56:35.:56:39.

affordable housing and good transport links. Richard, Exeter is

:56:39.:56:42.

a little better served than the rest of the region but still it is

:56:42.:56:49.

an issue. It is a very serious issue. With First Great Western,

:56:49.:56:52.

the announcement of the 20 three— month extension, but however, that

:56:52.:56:59.

23 months are in limbo and we need to know what is going to happen and

:56:59.:57:02.

we need to see investment in our railways. Thank you very

:57:02.:57:04.

we need to see investment in our We are getting into a discussion of

:57:04.:57:08.

more affordable homes needed, but we have no time. Andrew, back to you.

:57:08.:57:17.

Our next guest is no stranger to controversy, a former UKIP MEP he

:57:17.:57:22.

recently lost his party's whip after a series of outbursts including

:57:22.:57:44.

receiving aid as 'Bongo Bongo Land' and joking that a group of UKIP

:57:44.:57:47.

women who didn't clean behind their fridges were 'sluts'. Now he sits in

:57:47.:57:52.

independent but remains a UKIP party member. Here's a flavour of recent

:57:52.:57:55.

events in the political life of Godfrey Bloom. How you can possibly

:57:55.:58:10.

be giving £1 million a month... Bongo Bongo Land. I got 6000 e-mails

:58:10.:58:16.

within 12 hours, only 47 were not agreeing with me so you are the

:58:16.:58:20.

within 12 hours, only 47 were not that is out of touch. Everybody

:58:20.:58:23.

knows me, a bit like the Marmite joke, they love me or they hate

:58:23.:58:27.

knows me, a bit like the Marmite but I have always told me like it

:58:27.:58:36.

is. I made a joke and said that women who did not clean behind the

:58:36.:58:40.

French were sluts and everybody laughed along, including the women.

:58:40.:58:46.

I have had hundreds of e-mails, saying, God Almighty, can't you

:58:46.:58:51.

I have had hundreds of e-mails, a joke any more? I am long in the

:58:51.:58:54.

correctness and I understand UKIP have moved on and they are doing

:58:54.:59:07.

well, and I wish them well. This, with no black faces on it. You are

:59:07.:59:10.

picking people out for the colour of with no black faces on it. You are

:59:10.:59:17.

their skin? You disgust me! Perhaps the way they are doing things now is

:59:17.:59:25.

disgrace me. We are joined now with a suitable distance between us by

:59:25.:59:31.

the independent MEP for Yorkshire and the Humber, Godfrey Bloom. You

:59:31.:59:34.

said this weekend that you have and the Humber, Godfrey Bloom. You

:59:35.:59:40.

be a complete sociopath to be in politics, are you a sociopath? No, I

:59:40.:59:50.

am just an ordinary bloke from the rugby club likes to tell it as it

:59:50.:59:52.

is. I did not come into politics to rugby club likes to tell it as it

:59:52.:59:56.

save my country from the clutches of the awful, evil... That is why I am

:59:56.:00:03.

in politics, and that is why I member, and I will still be voting

:00:03.:00:15.

ability... Do you accept that your conference? We were both born in

:00:15.:00:21.

ability... Do you accept that your same year, we are too old to worry

:00:21.:00:25.

about regrets. Let's look forward and see... Never mind the year I was

:00:25.:00:31.

born, what is the answer to my country and intent to do the best I

:00:31.:00:35.

independent for my country, and country and intent to do the best I

:00:35.:00:43.

re-elected. They are the only game in town, the only party that will

:00:43.:00:48.

get as out. Shouldn't you have been liability? You hijacked the party

:00:48.:00:56.

conference. That is a matter of perception. We have heard nothing in

:00:56.:01:00.

the last two years but it is a one-man band, a Nigel Farage party,

:01:00.:01:05.

and I can make a joke at a fringe meeting and collapse the whole

:01:05.:01:09.

thing. This doesn't say anything Andrew. It tells you about your

:01:09.:01:19.

journalism - it is not about UKIP or me, it was the journalists' reaction

:01:19.:01:26.

to a small joke at a meeting. And also Nigel Farage's reaction - is

:01:26.:01:30.

myself, unless I had a commended. Personality, the most unbelievable

:01:30.:01:43.

force of personality to collapse a party conference. Nigel Farage has

:01:43.:01:56.

been a friend of mine for 20 years, and may I remind you that in June

:01:56.:02:00.

and July UK was slipping in the polls, and when I made my statement

:02:00.:02:06.

about overseas aid, we went back to liability, I never was, I am a vote

:02:06.:02:14.

getter. As you know, there is a correlation, but let me show you

:02:14.:02:18.

what Nigel Farage had to say about you on the BBC. Let's blunder clip

:02:18.:02:23.

of that. We are not here to win friends amongst the liberal elite,

:02:23.:02:30.

and Godfrey's problem was that he manifesto. Don't you need to reflect

:02:30.:02:39.

that you are too outrageous, too politically incorrect even for UKIP?

:02:39.:02:41.

Well, you see, to a certain extent I politically incorrect even for UKIP?

:02:42.:02:47.

have been gagged on other subjects. I am a libertarian, I wanted to

:02:47.:02:51.

have been gagged on other subjects. about flat tax. I thought David

:02:51.:02:53.

Aronowitz wrote a very good piece in the times on drugs, and I have been

:02:54.:02:57.

gagged to speak about any of these things because they are not part of

:02:57.:03:02.

it, so I tend to speak about other things. Maybe they have outgrown

:03:02.:03:11.

machine, and they have to get rid of the Victor Meldrew wing. You might

:03:11.:03:13.

have a point, but I am speaking the Victor Meldrew wing. You might

:03:13.:03:17.

you from Hull, and if you look at Barnsley, and very recently in

:03:17.:03:23.

Scarborough and Whitby in the buy legends, 25%, so how you see things

:03:23.:03:28.

in the bubble, it is not like how we see it appear in Yorkshire. You

:03:28.:03:32.

in the bubble, it is not like how we like the one who was sitting in

:03:32.:03:35.

in the bubble, it is not like how we bubble! Is UKIP unravelling? Of

:03:35.:03:35.

course it isn't, we are getting bubble! Is UKIP unravelling? Of

:03:35.:03:41.

of the vote in by-elections, of course it is not. Boy, wouldn't

:03:41.:03:45.

of the vote in by-elections, of main parties and the establishment

:03:45.:03:48.

love to see that! But I am sorry, it is not happening. Will you stand as

:03:48.:03:52.

an independence against UKIP in is not happening. Will you stand as

:03:52.:03:55.

European elections? Almost certainly elections were next week, I could

:03:55.:04:08.

do not think I will go that route. Will you stand as a UKIP candidate

:04:08.:04:10.

again? We do not know, probably Will you stand as a UKIP candidate

:04:10.:04:14.

but I shall certainly be trying Will you stand as a UKIP candidate

:04:14.:04:18.

help UKIP as best I can. You both share a flat, I understand, in

:04:18.:04:21.

Brussels, neither of you clean behind the fridge. Other than the

:04:21.:04:26.

fact that the place is probably quite murky, you have got a chance

:04:26.:04:30.

to talk to each other and get back into his good graces, haven't you? I

:04:30.:04:34.

am sure we will be having a beer before the month is out. So Godfrey

:04:34.:04:44.

take it? For those of you who were shrugged! Thank you very much for

:04:44.:04:50.

joining. A great pleasure. I will have to move my own share, you do

:04:50.:04:56.

not have the sea Jeremy Paxman doing that! Nobody votes for UKIP because

:04:56.:05:00.

they think they are a smooth, slick, absence of PR polish is the reason

:05:00.:05:07.

for their popularity, so these are skirmishes are not a problem, and

:05:07.:05:11.

more than that, Godfrey Bloom does make Nigel Farage look better. Even

:05:11.:05:15.

in that clip from Andrew Marr, he juxtaposition with someone like

:05:15.:05:20.

Godfrey Bloom than he has done before. I mean, he did hijacked

:05:20.:05:25.

Godfrey Bloom than he has done conference, it was a disaster, they

:05:25.:05:26.

got tonnes of publicity but not conference, it was a disaster, they

:05:26.:05:29.

kind they wanted. But you have to journalists. I thought he was sexist

:05:29.:05:37.

long before anyone else, he used to have an incredible page on his

:05:37.:05:42.

website entitled Godfrey Bloom: Misogynist, and the proof that he

:05:42.:05:47.

photographed with a girls' rugby characters in politics. He does

:05:47.:05:53.

photographed with a girls' rugby Nigel Farage look better, but is sin

:05:53.:05:55.

was to say things you said before but to ruin the party conference. It

:05:55.:06:02.

sounds like he is coming back. A beer in Brussels and he will be

:06:02.:06:06.

sounds like he is coming back. A on the UKIP ticket. Sitting having a

:06:06.:06:07.

beer in that built the Chechen, on the UKIP ticket. Sitting having a

:06:07.:06:12.

sounds like it may be what the deal is that he comes back into UKIP

:06:12.:06:15.

sounds like it may be what the deal does not stand as an MEP at the

:06:16.:06:19.

European Parliamentary elections. -- in that built the kitchen. It is

:06:19.:06:22.

right to say the electorate are sophisticated and they know what

:06:22.:06:25.

this party is for, what characters Godfrey Bloom said for people to

:06:25.:06:33.

electorate know what they go using UKIP four. They are using it as

:06:33.:06:37.

electorate know what they go using vehicle to beat over the head the

:06:37.:06:37.

three established parties. They vehicle to beat over the head the

:06:38.:06:41.

probably do it in the European elections and give them first place.

:06:41.:06:44.

The big question is what happens in problem that Nigel Farage was making

:06:44.:06:56.

The big question is what happens in an Andrew Marr this morning is that

:06:56.:06:56.

he wants to copy the tactics of an Andrew Marr this morning is that

:06:56.:06:58.

he wants to copy the tactics of Paddy Ashdown, get elected and

:06:58.:07:00.

councils, build up a Parliamentary base, and to do that you do need

:07:00.:07:01.

Commons next week, and there is base, and to do that you do need

:07:01.:07:05.

ministerial reshuffle on the cards, that is the rumour in Westminster.

:07:05.:07:06.

David Cameron has spoken of the that is the rumour in Westminster.

:07:07.:07:11.

David Cameron has spoken of the extraordinary talent pool of women

:07:11.:07:12.

among his ministers, so could he bring more of them into the cabinet?

:07:12.:07:15.

He was talking about it earlier bring more of them into the cabinet?

:07:15.:07:20.

week. I think we are getting there in Britain, but we have a long way

:07:20.:07:25.

businesses in Britain, there are not boardroom. If you look at politics

:07:25.:07:29.

in Britain, there aren't nearly enough women around the Cabinet

:07:29.:07:34.

table. So I think, in every walk of life, whether it is the judiciary,

:07:34.:07:38.

whether it is politics, business, there is a lot further to go. Before

:07:38.:07:41.

the last election, we only had there is a lot further to go. Before

:07:41.:07:45.

women Members of Parliament. We there is a lot further to go. Before

:07:45.:07:48.

have around 50, so we have made there is a lot further to go. Before

:07:48.:07:50.

big change, but it is still 50 out of 300, not nearly enough. So we

:07:50.:07:55.

need to do more. My wife likes to say, if you don't have women in

:07:55.:08:00.

need to do more. My wife likes to places, you're not just missing

:08:00.:08:03.

need to do more. My wife likes to missing out on a lot more than

:08:03.:08:06.

need to do more. My wife likes to of the talent, and I think she

:08:06.:08:09.

need to do more. My wife likes to probably has a point. The prime

:08:09.:08:14.

need to do more. My wife likes to there going to be a reshuffle? I

:08:14.:08:15.

think you are right to say there there going to be a reshuffle? I

:08:15.:08:19.

will be a lot more women, they need to change the ratio of women to

:08:19.:08:25.

will be a lot more women, they need called Dave who went to maudlin

:08:25.:08:33.

college. So obviously they are not fishing in the biggest talent pool,

:08:33.:08:43.

but there are numbers. Esther McVey has been selling a very difficult

:08:43.:08:46.

brief in work and pensions, you could see people being given bigger

:08:46.:08:48.

roles. Helen is pretty sure. We could see people being given bigger

:08:48.:08:55.

told it is not a Cabinet level reshuffle me it is under Secretary

:08:55.:08:58.

level, so maybe you could put Esther McVey into the Cabinet. Margot

:08:58.:09:05.

James, who you had here not that long ago, she is very impressive.

:09:05.:09:07.

What is impressive is that some long ago, she is very impressive.

:09:07.:09:12.

like Andrea Leadsom, who is really impressive, worked in the City,

:09:12.:09:16.

like Andrea Leadsom, who is really smart, really big on important

:09:16.:09:20.

intervention, she should still be in there, but she fell out with George

:09:20.:09:23.

Osborne when she dared to criticise him a few years ago over Ed Balls

:09:23.:09:33.

you are doing it on talent, Andrea expectation, if he does not do this

:09:33.:09:41.

now, a tonne of bricks will fall on him. He has got no excuse not to

:09:41.:09:48.

promote women, because the 2010 intake was disproportionately female

:09:49.:09:56.

in terms of talent. The question of the Tories and the struggle with

:09:56.:10:00.

women voters is a very deep and historic one. You have to remember

:10:00.:10:03.

that for most of the post-war period they had an advantage electorally

:10:04.:10:07.

amongst women voters. Many times Conservative government without

:10:07.:10:12.

amongst women voters. Many times women of this country. This began to

:10:12.:10:14.

change in the mid-1990s, and the question is, why has that happened?

:10:14.:10:21.

personalities at the top are now much more hostile to women, or less,

:10:21.:10:26.

personalities at the top are now Brent doubled to female voters?

:10:26.:10:28.

personalities at the top are now is such a deep historical trend

:10:28.:10:29.

personalities at the top are now I do not think one reshuffle will

:10:29.:10:35.

change it. -- or less competent civil. The English party conference

:10:35.:10:40.

season is over, do you share the consensus view that Ed Miliband

:10:40.:10:47.

season is over, do you share the out best of the three party leaders?

:10:47.:10:51.

I think I probably do, but his overall approval ratings are still

:10:52.:10:56.

minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus ten. And the more the recovery seems

:10:57.:11:00.

minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus to take place, and some of the

:11:00.:11:03.

latest figures are quite amazing, they certainly surprised me, you

:11:03.:11:08.

wonder whether Labour's tactic is right to put all their eggs into the

:11:08.:11:14.

living standards basket. I was looking at car sales, which are

:11:14.:11:18.

booming. If people start to feel better, and they don't yet, but

:11:18.:11:22.

booming. If people start to feel they were, it is tougher to go on

:11:22.:11:30.

about living standards. George Osborne's... You have Ed Miliband

:11:30.:11:32.

making a great thing about living standards, but then they say under

:11:32.:11:37.

their breath, this is global forces, outstripping wage increases. And

:11:37.:11:43.

you're absolutely right, as the economy improves, presumably that

:11:43.:11:47.

will be dealt with, but Miliband's argument will be that there are

:11:47.:11:51.

people suffering, and even if the economy recovers, they will still

:11:51.:11:56.

forces, it is difficult to blame the government for that. Body being

:11:56.:12:01.

noticed now, there is nothing worse for the leader of the opposition

:12:01.:12:06.

than to be not noticed. -- but he is being noticed now. It seems that he

:12:06.:12:11.

in many ways has set the political weather. Look at the number of

:12:11.:12:13.

references to the Labour leader weather. Look at the number of

:12:13.:12:18.

Mr Cameron's speech. And in Mr Obama's speech on a similar topic,

:12:18.:12:25.

living standards. Was the mentioning Ed Miliband?! Oh, he was using the

:12:25.:12:31.

same language, he has not gone that far. If I were Ed Miliband, I would

:12:31.:12:37.

be more worried now, because Labour through the kitchen sink at their

:12:37.:12:41.

conference. They came out with the biggest policy announcements they

:12:41.:12:45.

could, compulsory apprenticeships, the energy freeze on prices, and it

:12:45.:12:49.

generated a poll boost which has fizzled away within ten days. I

:12:49.:12:54.

generated a poll boost which has not know where they go from here.

:12:54.:12:57.

What is significant with Ed Miliband conference beaches, he has set the

:12:57.:13:04.

one nation Britain, and the problem with those speeches is people say,

:13:04.:13:08.

they are fine, they are academic, but what does it mean? What you

:13:08.:13:14.

they are fine, they are academic, now is an intellectual framework

:13:14.:13:16.

that translates into policies. The polls to watch are not the ones

:13:17.:13:20.

after the conferences, but at the end of the month when it has also

:13:20.:13:24.

pulled down. They will tell us where we are going. We will have to go

:13:24.:13:28.

ourselves now. Thank you to our guests. The Daily Politics will

:13:28.:13:31.

ourselves now. Thank you to our back tomorrow at noon on BBC Two,

:13:31.:13:34.

and I will be back on BBC One this time, same time, next week. If it is

:13:34.:13:37.

Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.

:13:37.:13:39.

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