29/09/2013 Sunday Politics South West

With me are a trio of top political commentators. All three will be

tweeting their thoughts, or in some cases just their thought through the

show, using the hashtag #bbcsp. cases just their thought through the

Conservative Party conference gets afternoon. We have already been

bombarded with a series of policy announcements, a tax break for

married couples of up to £200 per year, more money on life extending

cancer treatments and, last night, the news that the second stage of

the Chancellor's Help To Buy scheme brought forward from the start of

next year. David Cameron says it is all about helping hard-working

people. Right now, you can't get, 95% mortgage. That means a typical

family with two people earning 20,000, 25,000, they are being

asked, to buy an average house, 20,000, 25,000, they are being

mortgage payment, but they can't get the mortgage. They can't buy their

flat or house. As Prime Minister, I'm not going to stand back while

people's aspirations to get on the housing ladder, to own their own

flat or home, is being trashed. housing ladder, to own their own

is why we need to act. A predictable attempt by party leadership to

kick-start the conference with eye-catching policies. The polls

show a big bounce for Ed Miliband and the Labour Party, with decent

numbers for UKIP. What do party councillors as they travel to their

For the Conservatives this weekend, conference, and as a scene setter we

asked ComRes to survey councillors are Finland and Wales. Councillors

asked ComRes to survey councillors like Tom, packing for conference at

home in Wellingborough. Immigration is an issue for him. He thinks there

are pros and cons. But we found is an issue for him. He thinks there

immigration has had a negative reflects into this wider issue of

our relationship with Europe. People possible influx of ovarian and

Romania emigrants. Obviously the issue of Europe is very big. --

Ukrainian. His colleagues in Corby are worried about the rise of the UK

Independence Party. In our survey, nearly a quarter of Conservative

councillors thought that their party should make a pact with UKIP. The

concern is, yes, will they take If that happens, maybe we don't

concern is, yes, will they take back in. Maybe a partnership is

concern is, yes, will they take way to go. It depends what they

concern is, yes, will they take talking about them. A pact? Depends

what they say, anything is possible. What would you like to see? Ideally,

from my point of view, a national pact. David Cameron arrived in

Manchester last night. Around the same time as these activists from

London. I broke the news to them that in our survey just 26% of Tory

councillors think that the prime ministers in touch with the lives of

ordinary people. The same at all Conservatives, you don't judge

people by their background. It's not where they come from, it is where

they are going to. It is not a where they come from, it is where

problem that he is a bit on the where they come from, it is where

side? Cull you might describe him like that, I would not use those

words. Explain your T-shirt, it like that, I would not use those

phrase that a senior Cameron person is alleged to have used about you?

It is a humorous way of letting is alleged to have used about you?

party now that we are here to say important. We are not going away any

time soon. A sentiment you will important. We are not going away any

a lot at this conference, because just 22% of councillors in our

survey said that David Cameron was any good at listening to the people

that work hard for his party. That was Adam. Joining me now from the

Conservative Party conference in William Hague. Welcome to the Sunday

Politics. Good morning. Over one in five Tory councillors in our survey

support a pact with UKIP at the five Tory councillors in our survey

election. Why do you think that five Tory councillors in our survey

If it is one in five, it means a large majority did not want a pact

with UKIP at the next election. large majority did not want a pact

have noticed that UKIP, in local elections, has been receiving votes,

some of which would otherwise have been for the Conservatives. I think

we have to make sure that people election they are choosing between a

Conservative and Labour Government, as David Cameron as Prime Minister

or Ed Miliband. If people want to get a referendum on Europe, the

or Ed Miliband. If people want to way to do that is to have David

Cameron as Prime Minister. I think a Cameron as Prime Minister. I think a

general election is different from the local government perspective. It

is pretty unusual, some might say unprecedented, for a large chunk of

one of the big parties in this country to want to go into coalition

one of the big parties in this with a smaller party before an

happened? Looking at your survey, three times as many didn't want

happened? Looking at your survey, with statistics, you can highlight

it whichever way around you want to. The point is, we are not having

pacts with other parties, electoral pacts with other parties. You rule

it out? That is not going to happen. What we do want is to have a pact

it out? That is not going to happen. with the voters, if you like, as we

have often done in the Conservative Party. We have won over the voters

of other parties to support our policies and Prime Minister. That is

important with those people that say important with those people that say

they want to vote for UKIP. By default, they would produce a Labour

government in the exact opposite of many of the things they intend,

government in the exact opposite of Conservative and decide to vote

government in the exact opposite of UKIP instead in a general election.

That could help to produce a Labour government. The chairman of the

That could help to produce a Labour committee, the elected voice of

Conservative backbenchers, he says your party should spell out what had

once back from the European Union before next year's European actions.

Do you agree? We will be spelling out some things in the European

elections. I will be talking about this later on today. For instance,

European treaties the concept of ever closer union, a concept that in

believed in. We would like that ever closer union, a concept that in

consequences that would flow from that. We will be setting out the

examples and principles of the changes we want to say. Certainly

over the next year, not only before the European actions but the general

election, if you are saying, let have the exact list of anything

election, if you are saying, let negotiate, that is difficult because

there will be a negotiation of a new deal in Europe if David Cameron

there will be a negotiation of a new election. To some extent, that has

to be negotiated. Only 11% of your own councillors feel that people in

their area think that George Osborne is in touch with ordinary people.

is not for me to explain why people say what they say in surveys. The

important thing is what we are delivering for the country. What

George Osborne is delivering his renewed economic growth. 1.4 million

new jobs in the private sector, renewed economic growth. 1.4 million

for hard-working people, by reducing the tax for 25 million of them.

for hard-working people, by reducing Help To Buy scheme that we are

highlighting today. That is what really matters to people, actually,

I think you will find. Let's talk about helping ordinary people. Ed

Miliband is guilty freeze energy prices. What are you going to do

about energy prices, we already asked energy companies to put people

on their lowest tariffs. This has not been amended. -- implemented.

Why not? This is going to happen within this government. It is going

to happen within this government when the... Why hasn't it happened

now? People are suffering now from rising energy prices. It has not

happened because my colleagues have been implimenting it. In the case of

Ed Miliband's policy, if you are asking why it has not yet happened

under this Government, it didn't even survive a few our's scrutiny in

opposition. In a few hours he had to concede that if there was a big

change in oil prices then the policy would not work. The trouble is,

change in oil prices then the policy would dry up some of the investment

in the energy industry. I don't think it is a credible promise.

in the energy industry. I don't a party that presided over council

tax bills doubling in the next a party that presided over council

tax bills doubling in the next government, -- last government,

tax bills doubling in the next not very credible. Why is George

Osborne going against the European Well, we don't want to see the

European treaties used in a way Well, we don't want to see the

they should not be used. It's not necessarily over this particular

issue. It is over the power that the European Union has over our lives

and over this country. Can the bankers look after themselves? We

should be able to decide those things in our own country. We have

never signed up to such matters things in our own country. We have

European institutions. If you allow one thing that wasn't meant to be

decided to be decided, you find one thing that wasn't meant to be

there are another ten or 20 things that affect many other people. We

are very vigilant about what we that affect many other people. We

competence creep, with the European Union taking more powers than it was

meant to have. That is one of the referendum, do want a new deal in

Europe. That is what we intend to institution, ICAP, fined for fixing

the LIBOR rates. The founder of institution, ICAP, fined for fixing

company has donated £5 million to your party. Shouldn't you give it

back? Aren't you ashamed to accept that money? He has donated his own

Which he made out of ICAP. As people have to other parties, people are

free to do that and they should have to other parties, people are

free to do that. I am not aware have to other parties, people are

any plan for that to be repaid. Because you can't afford to. Let's

recap this. We have seen Tory MPs parrot propaganda lines from the

energy companies this week. We have the Chancellor going to court to

fight for unlimited banker bonuses. We have a top Tory donor the centre

fight for unlimited banker bonuses. of yet another city scandal. Ed

Miliband is right when he says you lot are on the side of the vested

interests so the rich and powerful, isn't he? Well, again, look at the

record. I just did! 1.4 million extra jobs in the private sector, 25

million people with a tax cut, a Help To Buy scheme which is going to

help so many people, particularly young people have the house that

future. Council tax bills held down, welfare reform so that it pays to

work. Actually, this is a government achieving things for hard-working

While President Laugharne he's talking about peace, the Iranians

weapons programme. -- is talking. It would be hard to say from week

to week whether it is speeding up continuing with it. That is why

to week whether it is speeding up say the new message - the new words

- from Iranian leadership are very welcome. I said that to the Foreign

Minister in New York over the last few days but it is the actions that

will count. At the moment, the nuclear programme continues. We

negotiations on that and that will be a very important test as to

whether actions will match the words. When will we know it if we

are being strung along? He has strung as a long in the past as

are being strung along? He has nuclear weapons negotiator. When

will we know if he is not just doing that again? Over the next

will we know if he is not just weeks, it will be a very important

time. He has said there should be more transparency over the Iranian

transparent in many regards at the moment. The atomic agency is asking

for information that is not being given. One test is, in the coming

information? The information that the international of authority is

asking for about their nuclear programme. We will be able to form

a view of this in the coming weeks or months. It is important we test

their new willingness to talk to us important to find out whether they

asking, is the nuclear programme really continuing? Are they really

negotiations and offer something Speaking of being strung along,

what sanctions would President Assad face if, in six months - the

Year, Syria still has a chemical weapons arsenal. In the resolution

we voted through the UN Security Council on Friday night, is the

Council will take measures under Chapter seven of the UN Charter

Council will take measures under the event of non-compliance. Does

that allow full force? I did not catch that. Does that allow for

Security Council resolution about Iraq, which most people concluded

in not allow full force. It does not specify that. It talks about

terms seven of the charter. That is a message of the whole UN Security

Council that there will be measures - there will be consequences - if

the Assad regime does not comply. has a big commitment. I have spent

counterpart over the last week. Russia has said, this is something

you will have to do. We will work with Russia and others very closely

to check there is compliance will this resolution. Given the progress

that has been made, you must be very glad that the British House of

Commons stopped your rash to force against Syria. -- rush. The reason

credible threat of military action. has happened is because there was a

credible threat of military action. President Obama did not get it

through Congress. They have not President Obama did not get it

the vote in Congress. There is no other explanation as to why the

policy changed. It was because there was a debate about military

action in the West that the policy changed on theirs. That is why it

changed. We were not in a rush for military action. The boat put to

the House of Commons was to have inspectors reported. It was before

Russian and Syrian policy changed. We need to make sure that works

Russian and Syrian policy changed. practice. Thank you. What do you

make about this rushing forward with the help to buy scheme which

was meant to start next year - coming forward mad to the next

couple of weeks? I think it is a Government having an interest in

mortgage lending. -- there is a fundamental problem. It should have

been set much lower to exclude London and the South East where

houses are dramatically overvalued. Many economists think freezing

energy prices is a terrible policy. These policies can be popular. If

you have no chance of getting a deposit, the Government will make

Osborne tried every single lever. It looked like he could not do

anything to get the economy moving. It is moving. They have pulled it

forward and there are signs it is recovering. The reason why they

forward and there are signs it is doing this is they want to show

this week at the conference there are real sort of understandable

issues you can explain very simply that really up going to improve

people's lives. The Conservatives Miliband's speech last week. The

nuts. Much more cautious and -- language about the energy price

freeze. They are nervous that Ed Miliband may be touching a nerve on

that one. What we will get this week, I suggest, his Tory populism

to counter Miliband populism. I think we will see that and it will

be a mistake. As long as it is think we will see that and it will

about The Picture, they are on relatively strong ground. When the

political conversation changes to more fiddly things, particularities

standards, things that are some more fiddly things, particularities

below that picture, I do not think they can win a bidding war with

below that picture, I do not think Labour Party. It is about borrowing

against a party that stands for Labour Party. It is about borrowing

before the Labour conference, which is unemployment, GDP growth and

before the Labour conference, which warming economic picture. That does

not pay energy bills. Does not sound that the Tories have anything

not pay energy bills. Does not to counter the price freeze. --

not pay energy bills. Does not does not sound. They have had a

week to think about a great attack line and they do not add anything.

the credibility test. Ed Miliband said, if there were a big spike

the credibility test. Ed Miliband energy prices, he would not be able

it is about credibility. Being seen as serious and grown-up is worth

it is about credibility. Being seen more than any burst of popularity.

with the election campaign, it My worry about the announcement

with the election campaign, it begins to lose credibility, begins

to seem a banana republic. It looks a lot less wise than it did last

week. I disagree. Every time energy bills go up and they will continue

to go up, it will be a reminder bills go up and they will continue

how much people are being hit in the pockets. People know by energy

prices are going up. There is a structural change in the world that

was not there before - China and India. These energy companies may

be making huge profit but, at the end of the day, what is driving

be making huge profit but, at the the cost of fuel is China and India.

Ed Miliband, great man that he is, I am not sure he can take on the

people Sammir on that one. How dare Labour's Conference in Brighton

last week. Dogged by criticism over the summer of his leadership style

and lack of policies, Mr Miliband tried to demonstrate his strength

of character with a series of bold announcements, and attempted to

position himself on the side of ordinary Brits. The Labour leader

told party members he would stand up to the strong and take on the

vested interests that hold back up to the strong and take on the

economy. In a speech in which he jokingly referred to himself as

economy. In a speech in which he action hero, Mr Miliband promised

to switch the forthcoming business action hero, Mr Miliband promised

tax cut from large firms to smaller businesses. He said he would force

big firms to train at an apprentice every time they bring in a worker

from outside the EU. He hinted that increasing the minimum wage would

be increased. He bowed to take on developers with a use it or lose it

threat to landowners and pledged to build 200,000 homes each year by

2020. He promised to freeze energy prices and reset the energy market.

The next Labour government will freeze gas and electricity prices

provoked a rash of headlines - hailing the return of red Ed macro.

It has also given him a spike in the polls. And Labour's Shadow

Ed Miliband says, our energy market is broken and does not work. In

what way is that market to date different from the one Labour left

companies that dominate the energy generate energy, and sell it on

companies that dominate the energy Miliband recognised when he was

Secretary of State and asked for more information from the company

Secretary of State and asked for is on hold serve costs and profits,

all the things we have done to mitigate against that in terms of a

warm front programme and everything Horsell market is too secretive

warm front programme and everything it is too much about such supply. -

- the wholesale market. We have been raising with the Government in

a co-operative way the argument been raising with the Government in

resetting the market. It has got worse in terms of speed at which

prices have gone up. Labour put wholesale and retail together. It

was the start this dates back to wholesale and retail together. It

was the start this dates back to privatisation. We took some reforms

realised it was not working and privatisation. We took some reforms

was broken and we need to reset privatisation. We took some reforms

Ed Miliband will be the first to onwards. Let's have a look at what

happened to energy prices under onwards. Let's have a look at what

Labour government. Electricity up 67%, gas up 139%. Overall prices up

by 48%. The market was broken and we saw prices biking as wholesale

prices went up. The tick action we saw prices biking as wholesale

the one Front programme, decent homes for social housing. -- we

programme. Trying to do things around social obligations needs

programme. Trying to do things be looked at. Gas and electricity

presided over but as a consequence of Labour policy. Beds have a look

at the breakdown of dual fuel - of Labour policy. Beds have a look

and electricity bill. -- let's have a look. The supply costs of getting

it to us and so on. The policies government - Green levies - are

energy bills. £112 on average bill of 1188. You have put the bill up.

obligations amount to £112. That helps the poorest insulate homes.

Overwhelmingly, looking at your wholesale costs are worth more than

half. What we have seen, based on figures we now have, in Eni macro,

a wholesale costs fell by 39% and that was not reflected in our bills.

Do you have plans to do anything about the £112? If you took that

off, you could cut bills by 10% tomorrow. Or if you were in power.

It is important that restimulate energy. It -- we stimulate. If we

do not have clean energy, we will be beholden for ever-more to fossil

do not have clean energy, we will fuels that are depleting. It will

create jobs and bring in investment will start in the last few years,

investment. If I could go back to whatever advance there are, looking

at whether the money raised through energy companies to deliver energy

efficiency, is that doing as well as it might? Could it be better

delivered by another agency? They are fair questions. We need to get

market. Can we make the market will competitive make sure when there is

downward pressure on wholesale prices, that is reflected on our

bills? That is the bigger picture argument. Also the freeze to help

As you complain about the energy prices, it was as a result of your

actions. Ed Miliband introduced prices, it was as a result of your

climate change act. He admitted prices would have to rise to pay for

decarbonisation. He said, we are going to minimise the costs as much

as possible, but it is true there is not a low-cost energy future out

there. It is important that we address the pressures on bills,

there. It is important that we also recognise that if we are going

to build a better future where we can have more home-grown British

renewables. Truth is it is about the market. I acknowledge I acknowledge

wholesale prices have fallen. They fell in 2009, we got a reduction in

bills of 5%. Which are saying that the big companies are overcharging

customers. We are seeing profits going up, but we haven't seen the

amount of investment suggested by those profits coming through. But

because your leader said in his speech in Brighton that Labour will

have a world leading commitment speech in Brighton that Labour will

Government to take out all carbon from energy generation by 2030.

Government to take out all carbon is not that far away. By 2030, no

more coal generation, no more gas generation, only much more expensive

nuclear and much more expensive without bills going up even further?

Hang on a second. The 2030 target to remove carbon from the electricity

supply, we have said we should set a target now because, actually, it

gives us more time to plan ahead and also allows investment to come in.

There is plenty of people with cash in their pockets not want to invest

what they are stalling because of the Government's hesitancy over

this. I just want a clarification here. My understanding is that your

commitment is to get rid of all carbon from power generation by

2030? From the letters city supply. Only electricity. We will still

2030? From the letters city supply. gas? We have always said we will

need gas for decades to come. So we are clear for that. But you will be

increasingly dependent on expensive nuclear. EDF are currently demanding

twice the market nuclear. EDF are currently demanding

plans in this country. Renewables are two or three times the market

price. Bills are going up under your policies, and the coalition

policies? On nuclear, we took a decision under the Labour Government

that we needed to revitalise the sector, to hit targets on clean

that we needed to revitalise the energy and make sure it can do the

heavy lifting. The Government at the present time are engaged in

heavy lifting. The Government at the discussions with EDF about what the

strike price should be. It's important, because I don't know what

it's going to be, it is important that stands up to scrutiny in terms

of value for money. At the same time, I go back to market reforms.

We will not just have a target for difference, the jargon for nuclear,

we will have it for renewables as well. That is even more important,

that we have a transparent market so that we can have a robust target

price to be judged against. Michael Gove recognised in question time

that the market was not working. The Telegraph said in its editorial,

they used the term cosy cartel. We have former advisers to David

Cameron saying something needs to be done. I'm surprised David Cameron

doesn't acknowledge that. You are going to freeze prices for 20 months

and will come up with a new regulator to replace Ofgem. Will

that regulator have the power to regulator to replace Ofgem. Will

control prices? The new energy watchdog will have a strategy

responsibility to monitor the wholesale costs and prices, which it

currently doesn't have at the moment. As a result of that it will

currently doesn't have at the have the power that, if the

wholesale prices fall, it can force the energy companies, if they don't,

to pass on reductions in bills to consumers. It will not have what we

see in some parts of the European Union, 15 of them, that have a

variety of price controls that set things at below inflation and what

have you. France, Spain, Italy. It will not do that. Why? Because we

are looking at a temporary price freeze to reflect a reduction in

are looking at a temporary price wholesale prices, to give the

British public respite from ever climbing bills while they get

reforms into the market. At the end of this, what we want is a more

competitive market that can be trusted, that is more transparent.

We do believe it is right that, actually, we need a regulator that

has much more of a role in making sure the market is managed

effectively. Are you accusing energy companies of profiteering? EU I am

accusing them of overcharging and not passing on wholesale reduction

costs to the customer in a fair way. Of making Carter -- cartel profits?

I do believe that the level of profits they have passed on to their

shareholders is high, compared to the reductions they could have

provided to consumers. Let's look at the evidence for that. Here are the

British owned companies, SSE and Centrica. In the last fiscal year

they made combined earnings of £4 billion. But they invested £3

billion. The remaining money went to debt servicing and paying dividends,

which go into pension funds. Where in these figures is the

profiteering? My figures that I got through their reporting to Ofgem and

work done by other organisations, Witch and others, it shows that in

Centrica's case they have something like 8% return in profit margins on

the retail side. That goes up to 24% on the generation side. They have

passed on, in terms of profits, something I70 4% through evidence to

shareholders. But these figures don't show that. They have invested

£3 billion. I am reporting what has been reported by Ofgem. Ofgem has

not accused them of property in. They may well be, but we don't have

the evidence. I would accuse Ofgem of not doing the job they should be

doing, and they have held back from tackling the issue. It is

acknowledged, across the sector, across the big six, something like

50% of profits has gone over to dividends to shareholders. In

Centrica's case it is 74%. On the Centrica example, even though they

have had the highest profit margins, they have invested the least. It is

fair to question. We are running out of time. None of us really know what

the true price of energy is that is Labour's policy to reform his

crucial. That is because he merged the market and we can't tell the

difference. If they continue putting prices up, even after your price

freeze, if they don't invest in a way that they do, do you rule out

wholesale nationalisation? Absolutely. I want a more

competitive market and that is why we are resetting it. You are

watching Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes I will be

looking at the week ahead with our political panel and

thatthe In the South West: Hello, I'm Lucie Fisher. Coming up on the

Sunday Politics in the South West: New warnings of cuts to council

services. And for the next 20 minutes, I'm joined by the Labour MP

for Exeter Ben Bradshaw and the Lib Dem Peer Robin Teverson. Welcome

both of you to the programme. Let's start with Labour pledge to freeze

energy prices if it wins the election. Rodman, do you think this

is an important move from Miliband? —— Robin? I don't think it's a

simple answer to the complex question of energy. I think we need

a solution. In developed countries we tend to put price controls and

freezes on power companies and it does not tend to work. I do not

think it is the right solution. What we do need to make sure we get is a

lot more competition in the industry. That is what the current

energy bill in Parliament is about. I think we need to get more real

test of those companies. The big six are not reforming in the best we and

the regulator has to take a more positive approach. Then, what do you

think? It is like the windfall tax. I think what has been very

interesting is that we have two energy companies seeing they could

freeze their energy prices until 2017. — saying. We even had Michael

Gove on question Time saying the current energy market is not

working. It's a short—term solution. We need to change the

regulatory structure. It is a bit picking and choosing the. Peter

Mandelson said it was the wrong way to go. He said it was the way the

British economy needed to develop. New energy entrance said it would

put them off coming into the industry. Need more competition

coming in, hope blue on the renewables and more consumer

orientated side of the industry. — hopefully on the renewables. We need

to keep prices down. The big top honours while prices. We have to get

off of the carbon and fossil fuel addiction. It has been widely

welcomed by all consumer groups. It has been standing up against vested

interests. Very briefly... The big thing you need to do is separate

producers from the market. The way you do that is to force them to sell

energy into the retail market. You would do that, would you?

Absolutely, post 2015 cuts. Another announcement to come out of Labour's

conference was the party's pledge to end what it calls the bedroom tax,

in other words to reinstate what ministers call the spare room

subsidy. The housing benefit changes have been controversial, but some in

the South West have argued that by encouraging tenants to down—size,

the Government's policy could help shorten our region's enormous

housing waiting lists. John Henderson reports. It was an

announcement that brought the house down. David Cameron was the Prime

Minister who introduced the bedroom tax, I will repeal it. If Labour

wins, it will then changes to housing benefit. For those at the

sharp end, the changes have indeed be unpopular. The macro in this day

and age there should not be anybody who cannot afford their home when

the urban social housing. It should not happen, that is what social

housing is for. Tell macro this family moved out of the home they

had lived in for 24 years. He were deemed to have more bedrooms than

they needed. It's less than £90 per month worse off. You could move

somewhere, go to private sector, or stay here, yet into debt, and get

kicked out. We had children up here, we lost our house. — we loved our

house. They said they would be affected by the changes, changes

that they call she defended as necessary to cut the multi—million

pound housing benefit bill. Many people in privately rented

accommodation cannot afford to have extra bedrooms because they do not

have housing benefit. We are spending £23 billion on housing

benefit and we have to get that under control. Four months on and

this couple are slowly getting used to the two—bedroom house. I spent a

lot of time thinking very childless week that I wanted to go home. I

appreciate the need for downsizing but on an individual personal basis

it has been very, very difficult. Pensioners are exempt from the

changes and this couple think that is on fear. —— unfair. The

downsizing is a good thing but it should be for everybody in council

or housing association property. Everyone should downsize and they

have too much space. Last year to households made a request to

downsize, this year it was 18, quite an increase. I think from the

figures I have given you, we have seen 20 houses being occupied by

families who are living in very difficult housing is an needed to

move into a good—sized family home. With over 15,000 people waiting to

be housed in Devon and Cornwall many argue this is new point—scoring. The

quality and are doing it to satisfy the Daily Mail. Ed Miliband seems to

be doing it to satisfy the unions. As a money saver, it will not save

much money at all. This couple did not like being forced to move home

but despite the people, they can see the benefits of downsizing. John

Henderson reporting. Well, joining us to discuss this, we have the

Conservative leader of East Devon District Council. Paul Diviani,

welcome to the programme. Is this policy working for you? Is it being

posers for families? It is indeed. We had 320 families be thought would

come into this category. We spent a long time contacting them all on a

regular basis. We did not want any to fall through the net. There is

some discretion in the housing benefit but that will not last

forever. We have a thousand 500 houses in East Devon. — 4500 houses.

It was said that your party was trying to satisfy the Daily Mail, it

does not actually save money and is not working. If you were to move out

of social housing at the council level land move into private housing

you would drop what we have the same thing operating. That was brought in

by the last government. We do not know how many spear houses he has

two accommodate the people who want to move. The numbers who had moved

had gone up from two to 18, that is minuscule. Across the country there

are not the smaller properties for families to move to. That is why

there has been a huge increase in the amount of years. People are

falling into debt and using food banks. —— the amount of five years.

It will not save money. —— early years. Do you have the properties to

move people into? We do not. It is the floor, how can you move people?

We are building more housing. Now we have housing under control we will

be able to build council houses again. We will make sure the one and

two—bedroom properties will come onto the market again. It is not

practical to do in bungalows because it will take up too much land space.

You have argued for this kind of policy in the past, waters you

edition now? —— what is your position now? Social housing stock

has gone down so we have an incredible shortage. We do not have

the smaller houses we need. What I would like to see, moving forward,

is an incentive to move rather than a penalty not to move. This houses

to do it. I am delighted to see under this government we have

started to have a rise in social housing. That is the way we have to

solve this at the present time. Unfortunately, because of the way

the Exchequer theirs and the problem is that there are, we cannot

incentivise people to move out. People who cannot get into social

housing at all are the real threat to us. You are shaking your head.

Years living in cloud cuckoo land. In Exeter we had a perfectly good

scheme that did incentivise families to downsize. It was working. Now you

are piling misery on hard—pressed families. Giving bankers are huge

tax cut. You should be ashamed. It is absolutely shameful. You sold off

half £1 million. —— half a million houses. Would you stop people owning

their own house? If we need to build more housing, how will be fun that?

Developers would not be allowed to settle on land. —— fund that. It is

the biggest challenge we face. This is unfair policy. It is just not

working. It will not save money. It analyses the Budapest. Can we just

come back on that. It has changed the way this works considerably, in

terms of fostering, disable children, although that has been

changed to make sure this works better. You have a problem of people

who do not have a house. We have to stop you dear and Melbourne. —— stop

you dear and move on. The Conservative leader of Devon County

Council's again warning public services like children's centres and

libraries face widespread cuts. Weeks after John Hart's sharply

worded letter to Government was leaked, he's begun asking parish

councils what services they can take on, to fill in the gaps. In a

momen,t we'll hear what the Prime Minister makes of Councillor Hart's

concern, but first this report from Jenny Kumah. This week, John Hart

took to the airwaves to ask people what services should be cut in

Devon. His letter warning of devastating cuts was leaked to the

press. The letter found its way into the public domain, how did that

happen? I do not know. It went to Mr pickles on the Thursday, other MPs

on the Monday and a group of politicians on Tuesday. By the

Wednesday it was in the hands of the press. The government say councils

have to take the issue of pain. John Hart says he is more constrained

than ever before. We were supposed to be able to do what we want to.

Progressively we have had more restricted financial control from

London. The authority has reduced its spending by 100 million over the

past four years. It faces cuts of a further 100 million x 2017. We have

closed now libraries or children's centres. We have kept everything

going. That is by doing things differently. Will you be able to

continue doing that for the next four years? I cannot do anything

other than what is required by the county council to do. The hope is

that Paddy shantytown councils will take on more services. —— Parish and

town councils. The question is how much they can realistically take on.

I lie awake at night worrying how I will balance the books. I would

never refuse to look at an option but I would need some very strong

persuasion that it was in the best financial interests of our

taxpayers. There are other constraints. Dealers quite a

difference between the government desire for localism and the

decisions they have made which have taken away from parish and town

councils the financial independence they have had for years. We no

longer in charge of our own destiny or have the ability to raise

taxation. We have very small reserves. Ministers say local

government have a great deal and £23 million of savings could we meet by

the covering uncollected council tax, recovering fraud and making

changes. Jenny Kumah reporting. Now, when Martyn Oates put the Devon

Council leader's concerns to the Prime Minister, he firmly rejected

calls to take cash from urban councils and give it to rural ones.

We have had to make difficult decisions across the board. All

local councils are having to do more. We have made changes to the

funding system. Government MPs have said you have broadened the divide

and it has got worse. I do not accept that. You are asking me if it

is difficult for local councils because there is less money around,

it is, there is less money. We have to deal with that and it affects

local councils as well as central government. We have encouraged

councils to freeze the council tax so that hard—working people are not

paying more for the services they get. That is east on the notion that

Whitehall knows more about finances than local authorities. —— based on.

We are supposed to have freedom and do what we want to do but we have

had more restrict the financial control from London than ever. That

is what I don't accept. We have taken off a lot of the ring fencing

on money that goes to local government. That has transformed

things since this government came to office. We got rid of the regional

assemblies and development agencies that wasted so much money. Local

councils do face difficult decisions but I think they have demonstrated

over three years that we can freeze council tax, reduce spending, but

also deliver good services. There have been suggestions children's

services and children's centres could be under threat, we did not

have them at the end of the Labour government. 200 million has to be

cut off a 600 million budget as was just outlined dear. That is because

government economic policies have healed. It is only recently things

have picked up a little bit —— have failed. We have two recognise that

there are difficult choices. I hope the councillors will do what they

can to protect the most honourable. That is what, for me, is most

important. Are you surprised to hear the government be so what about

this? Actually, I am quite shocked. I was speaking to the rural

secretary of state who felt this was the balance that was still wrong. I

would expect the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister to say similar

things that I would not necessarily agree. We have had about 50% less

money coming into rural authorities yet services tend to be more

expensive. Some rebalancing still has to happen. Things have to

change. Are we likely to see unitary afforded tea to try to save some

money? I think that is what government should do to save money.

Let's reduce this duplication in local government. It is cities like

Exeter within shire counties that suffer the most. They get a bad

healed. The shire counties spend more money in the rural area 's.

Everyone is having to tighten their belts. Now our regular round—up of

the political week in 60 seconds. To the coastguard agency confirmed

closing dates for stations in Brixham and Portland. The campaign

to save them continues. The campaign goes on. I am never going to give

up. Businesses in Cornwall were called dated benefit from a new

local investment bank. We need decisions to be made in Cornwall.

Businesses in rural Devon in this low due for high—speed broadband

worked all ministers had mismanaged the project. I cannot say that they

have made enough inroads and that anyone is taking responsibility for

the living. Firefighters go on strike over pensions. It is not what

any of us signed up for order expect it. And dealers only seven years

burial space left in some cemeteries. —— the is only seven

years. What should we do about cemeteries running out of space? I'm

called burials that they are becoming fashionable. It is plenty

of space out the off Plymouth order Cornwall post to do that. It is a

serious option. Beat for basking sharks like I saw yesterday. ——

beat. It is a problem for people. I am not sure about the idea of

digging people up after 70 years. And what do you think about reusing

graves? It is an option. It happens in some parts of the world. At the

moment you are having people buried 30 miles away from their loved ones

and that cannot rewrite. That's the Sunday Politics in the South West.

Thanks to my guests Ben Bradshaw and Robin

Thanks to my guests Ben Bradshaw and for. My thanks again to Mary McLeod

So, we'll David Cameron's marriage tax break win over voters? How will

So, we'll David Cameron's marriage conference initiatives? And what is

UKIP leader Nigel FarageFarage up to with the Tories in Manchester?

On this business of a possible Tory- UKIP pact, in a general election,

let's see what David Cameron had to say about that earlier. I am not

looking for a packed. I think we need to give people a clear choice

at the general election. The British economy has turned a corner. We

at the general election. The British on the right track, we are seeing

more jobs, new businesses, we are beginning to get things moving

again. Do you want to stick with us, hard-working people, or do you want

to put it at risk with Ed Miliband hard-working people, or do you want

and his crazy plans to tax business out of existence? That was the Prime

there any appetite on the UKIP side discussions around the country,

there any appetite on the UKIP side would say no. It's being discussed,

is the media that is pushing this. It has reflected what has happened

conference season began. Labour It has reflected what has happened

trying to reclaim what I would call position. I'm not sure what the

Liberal Democrats or two, but the Conservatives are trying to react to

accusation they are lurching more to the right, which the media wants to

able to do some sort of pact with interpret as them possibly being

able to do some sort of pact with UKIP. Have you given any thought to

whatsoever. It is not on the radar. I have read comments, including

Carswell, the Eurosceptics, that they might form a potential, let's

call it, you know, cabinet. If there were UKIP members, I don't doubt

that Nigel Farage would be one of them. But I would reiterate it is

not discussions that are taking place. I am thinking more of an

have responded to that by saying, the moment, there are no ongoing

discussions. There is certainly constituency level or coming out of

believe any constituencies are Eurosceptics? I am not privy to

believe any constituencies are all 360 constituencies might be

discussing. All I can do is give you the example of the few I have seen

and know it is not on the agenda. Without a pact, it is perfectly

possible that you could fail to Without a pact, it is perfectly

a single seat at the next election, but put Ed Miliband into Downing

Street? Categorically not. There are a number of seats out there that are

very clear marginals, just like a number of seats out there that are

Izzard was. I believe there could be an MP -- just like Eastleigh was. If

you take enough votes away from an MP -- just like Eastleigh was. If

Tories, if you make sure that Labour wins? I will go back to the comment

I made. If you take Eastleigh as an example, a Liberal Democrat held

seat, even after that result, does not mean that UKIP is suddenly going

to be focusing on Tory seats. We are out there because people resonate

with our message. For the Liberal Democrats to make it abundantly

clear that they will not support a referendum, that they will not

support any discussion on leaving the queue, that could be a big

turn-off for voters. David Cameron says there is not going to be a

pact, Diane James says there is says there is not going to be a

going to be one. There might be says there is not going to be a

or at a constituency level. But says there is not going to be a

seems clear to me that there will not be a national one. So, does

David Cameron have a UKIP strategy? The only encouraging thing for

UKIP's successful David Cameron that the moment that he would only

that their support is so enormous that the moment that he would only

really need to win back maybe a third or a quarter of its to make a

decisive difference to the Tory share of the vote in 2015. The

question becomes, how much of that UKIP support is up for grabs? A

question becomes, how much of that last week suggested that 47% of

current UKIP voters would consider voting Tory if it meant preventing

Ed Miliband becoming Prime Minister. That number goes up to 57% against

recovery. So, plausibly, there is secondary question is, what does

David Cameron do to win over those people? He has tried a Europe will

referendum and it didn't work. He tried travelling up his immigration

policy and that didn't work. I wonder if it is time. You wait until

the run-up to 2015, when they start to focus on the explicit choice

Cameron, and that is what shifts a Cameron. We heard from William Hague

earlier in the programme, the Tory line is that if you vote UKIP you

could end up with Ed Miliband in Downing Street. That is the simple

appeal, isn't it? Yes, and I think Diane is right, I think the European

elections will show a good showing for UKIP. It is deemed the one where

you can play away. I think it will be hard for people to get excited

about that, I think that bounce be hard for people to get excited

fade away. In Eastleigh, they had a good ground game, that is difficult

for UKIP, that don't have that machinery sorted. How are they going

to fund that operation? But the machinery sorted. How are they going

bounce could fade away after the European elections. Even if they go

election, they are still immensely dangerous to the Conservative Party.

But there is really only two things David Cameron can do. One is to

But there is really only two things boring and talk about helping people

with their mortgage, helping with bread and butter issues. The second

thing is, those European actions, he tends to the natural Conservative

voters and says, you have had your fun, next year do you want me or Ed

Miliband us your prime and? The fun, next year do you want me or Ed

danger with David Cameron is saying, of course, there is not going to be

a pact, the danger is you will get a repeat of the 1977 election. John

Major said, famously, do not bind my hands. A series of Conservative

personally rule out membership of the euro, when the Conservative

membership was wait and see. That looked like a Prime Minister not in

charge of his party. The danger looked like a Prime Minister not in

Let's assume you do really well looked like a Prime Minister not in

the European actions and there is a widespread expectation that you

will, even in Downing Street. They might be managing expectations.

will, even in Downing Street. They stops you fading away as the general

election approaches? A number of reasons. As has been mentioned,

election approaches? A number of whole issue of the referendum pledge

has been proved to be an absolute nonsense. It is so contingent on if

I am re-elected, if it's not a coalition government, is, if, if.

That was fooled nobody. The issue of where voters are coming from, it is

because they have lost faith in where voters are coming from, it is

David Cameron says. There is nothing he is going to say that is convince

think that is my view and the view of a lot of UKIP. I am told that

they have expunged Nigel Farage of a lot of UKIP. I am told that

the fringes? It is a great scoop, on the front page. They are outside the

ring of steel. Even so, they won't programme, so they must be worried

paid money for adverts in the Tory about something. His people have

paid money for adverts in the Tory brochure and his name has been taken

out. Speaking of people the Tory brochure and his name has been taken

leadership is worried about, Boris Johnson, are we in any doubt as

leadership is worried about, Boris interview that he is now beginning

his long march back to Parliament? He does express feeling slightly sad

during the Syria debate that he He does express feeling slightly sad

not there, on the political front line to participate. I still do

not there, on the political front see why it is in his interest is to

move before 2015. No, I don't think he will move before, I think he

move before 2015. No, I don't think sending a signal to the existing

Tories in the Commons that when sending a signal to the existing

Me Dave goes, I will be back? He has the Vince Cable problem, if you

Me Dave goes, I will be back? He has the same thing too many times,

people get bored and factor it in. The interesting thing is him saying

that people have seven years before the electorate get bored of them. He

might be cresting that. He doesn't want to be Prime Minister, he is

much more ambitious than that. He wants to be an emperor. He was

asked, which Roman emperor would you like to be compared to? You said,

important. I don't think you are thinking big enough. See what I

important. I don't think you are to put up with, every Sunday? By

virtue of being born in the US, to put up with, every Sunday? By

could be president. Unlike Arnold Schwarzenegger. How about a deal

with Boris? He has made no secret, after Eastleigh, that he would be

open to a discussion. Let's call it no more than a discussion. He has

been adamant, however, he does not see any reason, any justification or

any opportunity where he would be able to have that discourse with

any opportunity where he would be David Cameron. Maybe it comes down

to that on both sides. I've no idea. We know that the Tories will be

to that on both sides. I've no idea. more Eurosceptic after the next

election? I can't imagine David Cameron's successor will be somebody

that supports EU membership in ideological direction of the party.

The leadership contest will be about 2018. If you are standing, when

this is a great deal for Britain membership, are you going to say

this is a great deal for Britain because the Prime Minister has

turned to leave rapid change two words in the working Time directive,

turned to leave rapid change two or are you going to become a leader

by saying, I want out? What would be a good conference for David Cameron

eye-catching announcement related to living standards. May be a clearer

line on energy prices? That would certainly help, that fightback has

been rubbish so far. The thing we should be looking out for are not

the polls immediately after, but the ones about the end of October, when

everything gets to settle down and then we will see what happens. In a

word, what is Nigel Farage out to get at the Tory conference? What is

he doing, other than mischief? I could almost say revenge. Revenge on

Mr Cameron? Yes. You know? Lord Ashcroft was there at the Labour

conference. You call it mischief, but there is every reason why he

should be there. We all call it mischief. Thanks for being with

should be there. We all call it Join me on Daily Politics for live

coverage of the Conservative Party conference tomorrow morning from

11:30 on BBC Two. We will bring conference tomorrow morning from

George Osborne's speech live and uninterrupted. I'll be back next

weekend when guests will include former Conservative Chancellor

Kenneth Clarke. Remember, if it former Conservative Chancellor

Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.