22/09/2013 Sunday Politics South West

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband and the

rest of the Labour clan are in Brighton for their party conference

this weekend. He's promised policies galore. But as a Sunday Politics

poll finds a third of his own councillors don't think he's doing a

good job, will that be enough to steady the Labour ship?

Back in Westminster, they're partying like it's 2006, as Damian

McBride's memoirs re-ignite the Blair-Brown wars. Alastair Campbell

will tell us why he is sickened by the former Brown spin doctor.

And speaking of political infighting, Conservative Party

Chairman Grant Shapps will give his response to the rampant Tory-bashing

In the South West. Tourism bosses at the Lib Dem Conference And with

In the South West. Tourism bosses fight to keep casual contracts.

And UKIP's hairy biker who thinks he may

And UKIP's hairy biker who thinks he business. In London, Labour commands

over the two thirds of the ethnic minority vote but now stands accused

of institutional racism. Are they right? With me, the best and the

brightest political panel in the business. Isabel Hardman, Janan

Ganesh and Steve Richards. They'll be tweeting like demented Damians

throughout the programme. First today, scrapping the bedroom tax.

Universal childcare for primary school kids. More apprenticeships.

Labour Conference only begins in earnest today, but the policy and

spending commitments are coming thick and fast. Not before time,

according to the Labour leader's critics. He's been out and about

this morning and told Andrew Marr that he knew it was going to be a

tough fight in the run up to 2015. It is about a party that lost office

three years ago. We are trying to be a one term opposition. That is

tough. I believe it is a fight that we can win and I am up for that

fight. The stakes are so high for young people who want a job, for

people whose living standards are being squeezed. For people who think

that this is not good enough for Britain. So what do key Labour Party

activists - its councillors - think about the direction Mr Miliband is

taking their party? Adam Fleming is in Brighton at the Party Conference

with all the details of our latest exclusive Sunday Politics survey.

Labour have unwrapped their conference set. Let us unwrap them.

With the help of an opinion poll we surveyed 1350 Labour councillors

across England and Wales. We wanted to find out what they think as

Labour gathers for its conference. The Labour leader warmed up for the

week by taking to his soap box in Brighton city centre. It is great

week by taking to his soap box in be here. In our survey 31% of

councillors said they did not think Ed Miliband was doing a good job as

leader. 30% said they thought the party would have a better chance if

someone else was in charge at the next election. You will see more of

Ed Miliband as we run-up to general election. He has been in the job for

three years! Now it is crunch time. The other Ed, Ed Balls, was disliked

by roughly one third of the party as well. Ed Balls is not a pop your

man. He says things and he speaks his mind. -- not a popular man.

Sometimes he is not the most diplomatic. Sadly Ed Balls did not

seem to be that bothered about our survey. Over at a conference centre

the exhibitors were starting up. When it comes to relations with

trade unions, the majority of Labour councillors thought things were

absolutely fine. Just 9% thought things with the unions were a little

bit too close. Tricky because Ed Miliband want to loosen the link.

The shadow environment secretary arrived in Brighton ride bicycle

from London to raise money for charity. When we as Labour

councillors what they would do if the next election results in a hung

parliament, just over half said they would tell the lid Dems to get on

their bikes. We would never say no to going into coalition. It gives us

the chance to be in government and prepare some of the damage of the

last three years. So are you going to start being nice about the Lib

Dems? I always treat them with courtesy. And the parties admitted

that perhaps they had opened the door to too many immigrants. It in

our survey Labour councillors of warming the felt that immigration

had been positive for the UK. We're now joined by the Shadow Chief

Secretary to the Treasury, Rachel Reeves. Good morning. Let us start

with Ed Miliband. Is it true that the team insisted that he be called

the leader? I just call him Ed and I think the rest of the Shadow Cabinet

do. Do you welcome working for a leader that says he is winning back

socialism? We are a democratic socialist party. We make no

apologies for that. The most important thing is that we have the

apologies for that. The most policies that will improve people 's

lives and tackle the cost of living crisis facing so many families.

Policies like expanding childcare, offering more apprenticeships, all

policies that I think the country are calling out for after three

years of a flat-lining economy and seeing prices rise faster than wages

for 38 out of the 39 months but David Cameron has been Prime

Minister. I think that is the most important thing. So it is OK now to

risk their to the Labour Party again as the Socialist party? The clue is

in the name, we stand up for working people. You are socialist party

according to the leader. We have always been the Labour Party, that

is our name and we stand up for working people, not the privileged

few like this government with their tax cuts for millionaires. Those are

policies that help just the privileged few. The Labour Party is

about helping everyone in Britain, all families. Interesting that your

run don't use the word socialist. In our survey one third of Labour

councillors said Ed Miliband was not doing a good job as leader. If he

cannot convince his own councillors, who can he convince?

Well you could say that two thirds of councillors think that he is the

right leader. But these are Labour councillors. The overall majority of

Labour councillors think that he is doing a good job. What matters is

the results on election day. Two thirds of councillors think that he

is doing a good job. That us see what they say at the end of this

week. Because I think the policies he is announcing will go down well

week. Because I think the policies with Labour Party people and will

also resonate with the British public. Policies like expanding

apprenticeships, giving a break to hard-working families who are

struggling. I think people will see what kind of a leader that he is.

Well he has a mountain to climb among all voters. Let me ask the

question. Just 12% see him as a Prime Minister in waiting, just 2%

see him as a natural leader. Why? If Prime Minister in waiting, just 2%

you look at the overall opinion polls, we are consistently ahead in

those polls. It is hard being leader of the opposition, you cannot

demonstrate how you would be Prime Minister. By nature you are in

opposition. But he has taken on Rupert Murdoch and the press barons.

That is strong leadership, standing up to the vast majority. If you look

at his reforms to our relationship with the trade unions, strengthening

ties with individual members. I think that he is a strong leader

making the right decisions. If that is the case, why has the Labour lead

gone from 14 points one year ago to at most four points now. What went

wrong? Well we are six or eight points ahead in the polls today. We

are six or eight points ahead in the polls today. We're still

consistently ahead. It looks as if we would get an overall majority if

there was an election tomorrow. But we have more work to do to convince

more people to vote for Labour. But this is a historic challenge, to be

a one term Labour opposition. I believe that Ed Miliband will be the

next Labour Prime Minister and will be an excellent Prime Minister. The

big policy announcement today is the guaranteed childcare for all primary

school children. How much will that cost? When Labour were in

government, they ring fenced money to provide after-school --

after-school and breakfast clubs. We think that money should be ring

fenced again. How much will it cost? We are saying that schools

within their budgets should be able to provide that. At the moment they

can charge for children to come to their first clubs. But this is a

policy that does not involve additional money. As it was under

the last Labour government it will be about ring fencing money because

we think that this is a priority. This is something that the schools

should do. You cannot ring fenced money you do not have. You saying

you could provide wraparound childcare for every family

schoolchild from eight o'clock in the morning until six o'clock at

night and it will not cost any more money? Well we did ring fence that

money in the last Labour government. That money is gone! It has not gone.

It is about priorities and we are saying that it should be a priority

to provide that wraparound care. So where is the money being spent now

that you would take it from? If we look at some of the things that this

government is doing, building free schools in areas where there are

already enough. That is capital spending. We are ring fencing that

many. Again, it is different priorities. We had the ring fence

when we were in government. It would be reintroduced so that schools had

to offer that wraparound care. Of course schools can charge a small

to offer that wraparound care. Of fee for their breakfast clubs and

after-school DVDs. But the important thing is that provision is there for

parents going out to work. Ed Balls and Ed Miliband are at the heart of

the Brown project. Damien Wright was the hit man. Is it not inconceivable

that they did not know what he was the hit man. Is it not inconceivable

up to. It is inconceivable that they did not -- Damian McBride. I am

asking about Damian McBride. What I'm saying is that I was not there.

I was not there under the last Labour government. But I do know

that these things are not happening under the leadership of Ed Miliband.

He has led by example. There is not that backstabbing going on. There is

no plotting against Ed Balls going on? I do not see that. And anyone

who briefed against colleagues should be sacked, I agree with that.

Nick Clegg's conference speech made it clear he was repaired to work

with Ed Miliband in the event of a hung parliament. Are you excited by

that prospect or is it just boring? That is very generous of Nick Clegg

to say that. With his poll ratings of 9%. I think it is up to the

general public to decide who they want to form a government. We are

campaigning for an overall Labour government at the next election. Are

you excited by the prospect, or is that just boring boring? I want to

serve in a Labour government is not a coalition government. That is what

we are campaigning for. Thank you for joining us. Steve Richards, what

has Ed Miliband got to do this week? He has got to start to win the

argument about the economy. I think they will be quite clever on that in

terms of saying that the recovery has begun but it is not going to

benefit many of the voters. Unlike previous economic recoveries. That

is a strong line and they need to make that again and again. The

recovery has barely started. The make that again and again. The

interesting thing, Isabel, they want to make a living standards the issue

now because growth has returned, let's return to living standards

which have been squeezed. The polls show that twice as many people blame

Labour for the living standards than the Conservatives. It is a great

scene for them to mine, and it is the only one before they announce

big policies, but they have not gained the trust of voters on the

economy, so the Conservatives can say they are finishing the job of

fixing the recovery now and then we'll focus on living standards,

whereas Labour is trying to say, you cannot quite trust us with the

economy but we will talk about living standards. Ed Miliband's main

job this week is to begin elucidating policies and not just

themes, and that makes elucidating policies and not just

incredibly vulnerable. The only thing worse than not having a policy

for an opposition leader is to have a policy. It gives the opposition

something to attack, the media something to scrutinise and it makes

you bold rubble and you can see that coming through already before the

conference has started. You have sketchy ideas on child, --

childcare. Spigot can he provide wraparound childcare for free? --

can he provide wraparound childcare for free? I don't even know what it

is. Opposition is emphatically an art form, and the art form, and the

artform for them at the moment is to announce policies without spending

any money and it is very difficult to do. You gave an illustration of

how difficult it is. They are under huge pressure, for the last year, to

announce policies and they announce one on childcare and you immediately

say, how do you paper it? And she immediately says, we will not spend

a penny on it, because they are terrified of spending anything. This

is where it an artform. The tax suspension before and election is

crazy, because they will find money one way or another, but in another

way, they cannot say we will spend money on this. It is a real problem.

How do you measure the state of the coalition after the Liberal Democrat

conference? The Liberal Democrats were in a very strong position after

their conference, Nick Clegg had faced and activists on some issues,

including fracking, which they supported, which seem to be the most

important part of the conference. In terms of the coalition, the Tories

have had to sit and watch as Vince Cable, Nick Clegg and Coe have

basically criticised them and said they are evil and only the Lib Dems

can make sure the Government is fair and works properly. So in terms of

how the coalition works, you can expect to see some revenge at the

Tory conference. The Lib Dems, Nick Clegg's followers, they had their

revenge. Mister Clegg may have convinced his own activists to stay

behind him, but he has a bigger challenge, which is called

convincing the British people. There is some interesting polling they

have done privately that suggests there is a market of about 25% of

the electorate which is plausibly open to them, and all they have to

do is target policies remorselessly at that group, rather than the

broader public, in order to do well enough at the next election to hold

the balance of power. That is why policies that seem weird to us, like

free school meals regardless of income, may perversely make sense to

them. Because it appeals to their demographic. It is a strange

political world we are in, the Labour strategists think they can

win with 35%, the Lib Dems are going to concentrate on 25. The Tories

have seized to be a national party any more. We haven't been used to it

for a long time. In the 80s, one party dominated, the Tories. In the

90s into the 21st century, the policy matter delayed the Labour

Party dominated. -- the Labour party dominated. We are now here but we

have other parties hoping that 36% will give them a small overall

majority and it is the best they can get. It is a very odd situation

where the main two parties feel they can lose and the Lib Dems are openly

targeting only 25%. They have gotten rid of 75% already and it is a long

way from the policies of last couple of decades Nick Clegg talked about

all of the policies he had locked. There is a real opportunity for the

Conservatives to say that he is blocking all of the things that

voters outside of our bays are interested in, top immigration

policy, human rights reform, that sort of thing. David Cameron can say

that in Manchester next week. One thing was quite clear, it came out

of this awayday, and and this is this, that when you look at Mister

Miller band's polls, the Tories are going to make this a presidential

election -- Ed Miliband's polls. Which is why I am curious why they

are not more keen on TV debates. When the strength of your party is

the visibility of your leader against his opponents, why not have

him or her juxtaposed against them in 90 minutes three times a week.

Let's turn now to the coalition. The past week has given us inklings of

how the yellow half of the Government is planning on fighting

how the yellow half of the the General Election.

When the Lib Dems gathered for their annual shindig in Glasgow, some

ministers were non-too complimentary about their blue blood fellows. --

bedfellows. Vince Cable led the way in stick in the boot in, saying the

Tories had reverted to type as a nasty party and describe their

politics as ugly, cynical, callous and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not

restrict himself to policies that and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not

the Lib Dems had champion, such as and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not

increasing the amount you can earn before paying tax. The Deputy Prime

Minister proudly listed all of the things he had stopped the Tories

from doing. Speak of scrapping housing benefit the young people,

no. No to ditching the human rights act. No to weakening the protections

in the equalities act. So how much of a break have the yellow brigade

being on Conservative ambitions question mark in the two leaders

shake hands again after the 20 15th election, what policies were David

Cameron insist on. -- 2015? No matter how many times Nick Clegg

says no? matter how many times Nick Clegg

And Grant Shapps joins me the Sunday Interview.

Grant Shapps, good morning. Nick Clegg, Doctor Know himself,

self-styled. He boasted to his conference that he had stopped the

Tories from going ahead with 16 policies in government. Is this

accurate? I don't know but what I can tell you, as your commentator

Isabel said, some of the policies that we wanted them if we were a

majority government sent out to be very popular things, like reforming

the human rights act and some of the problems that provides when it comes

to sending people who have no right to be in this country back. So there

may be some things we could have made progress on. You are in

government, did he stop the inheritance tax cut? I don't know

the details, but I think it is absolutely true to say that

coalitions are a process of negotiation and sometimes you can't

get everything you want, and we had done the best, given where the

electoral maths left us. That is why 70 people in this country say they

would rather see a single party running the country -- why so many

people. I have to say I agree. They are not sure which single party.

Give me a couple of major policies that you would introduce if you had

had a majority in 2010 and were not held back by the Lib Dems. Speaking

the one I just mentioned would be the Human Rights Act. In This

Country, we have had 1,000 years of developing the law and we are more

than capable of putting in place sensible laws. you would have left

the European Court of human rights. We have already started the process

of negotiation. There was some progress, but limited, and we would

like to move further. Let me give you one other. I think this country

has a great future but we can only grasp that country if we make

ourselves the best place in the world to come and set up a business.

ourselves the best place in the If we make ourselves the best place

in Europe to develop jobs and entrepreneurship and I think there

are a host of things we could do to go further on cutting back red tape.

And the Lib Dems have stopped you? I think that is the case. In what

ways, if any, have the Lib Dems improved the coalition process? It

has been a stable government. No one talks about when the next election

will come, we know it is in May 2015 but that is in part being in a

coalition. The Tories wouldn't have done that? It wasn't the plan of any

party to go from... In the old days, there would have been speculation.

You turned it into a national debate, you changed the British

constitution in a fundamental way and nobody got a say. It was debated

on the floor of the Has, as all constitutional changes are and there

was a lot of agreement -- of the House. Nobody has ever said to me

that it is a problem that we now have a fixed term parliament. Here

it is, every five years. This is what it has done, it has provided

stability in an incredibly uncertain economic time and that has been good

for the economy. we will chalk that up to delete -- Lib Dem. What about

taking people out of tax, the Lib Dems did that question mark it is a

great policy. It is a conservative led government, it is a Conservative

government massively Chancellor. This is a screen grab from your

party's website, income tax cut to 25 million people. You are taking

the credit for it, it wouldn't have happened without the Lib Dems. It

certainly came about because of the coalition and we put it in the

coalition agreement. It could not have happened without a Conservative

Chancellor making it happen. It is right, 25 million people taken out

of tax. Another 17 by this April will not be paying tax at all. you

didn't want to do it. Look at what David Cameron told Nick Clegg during

the leaders debate in 2010. What Nick Clegg is promising is a

£17 billion tax cut. We are saying, stop the waste of 6 billion to stop

the national insurance rise. I would love to take everyone out of their

first £10,000 of income tax, it is a love to take everyone out of their

beautiful idea but we cannot afford it. It wasn't in your manifesto.

Mister Cameron said it was unaffordable and now you are taking

the credit for it. I feel like it is having a three year afterwards

argument, and we got into coalition because the British people put us

there and we agreed to make the best of it. And as it happens, if you

want to hear a confession, I absolutely think it is the right

thing to take as many people out of tax entirely as possible. Two points

7 million people pay no tax at all because of this rise in the

threshold. -- 2.7 million. I'm pleased it worked out. What are the

most important thing is a majority Tory government would do after 2015,

unencumbered by the Lib Dems? I think produce even more jobs when

unemployment goes down, because we think produce even more jobs when

are the most entrepreneurial place to set up a business. Are more

free-market economy? We make our money because we are out global

trading economy. That is why it is so important that we have to make

sure it is easy to trade around the world. One simple example, it is

crazy in my view that we have global tariffs that prevent some of the

hardest other countries in the world, in developing parts of the

world, from exporting to us and vice versa. I'm giving you a platform of

things that I think we would be more interested in progressing in. It

sounds like you are talking about even more Thatcherite, market led

agendas. I think that you did a huge amount to show this country that if

you want to help the least well off people in society, and the least

well off people in the world, around the globe, the way to do it is to

trade, and I think we should have an economy which is much more open to

free trade. If there is another hung parliament, and the poll suggest

there might be, at the moment it is all to play for on both sides, what

would your non-negotiable Red Line speak? We are still two years away

from that, it is a long way away, but there is a lot we want to lay

out. What we are going to be saying to this country is most people want

a single party running the country, they think it is clean and clear and

you don't end up with negotiation after an election. We will be

setting out a very clear platform which will be for hard-working

people in this country who want to work hard and get on in life. We

would, I think, want to see the welfare state that we have got into,

where it is no longer about helping those most in need but became a

situation where you are better off not working than in worker, I think

we plan to ensure that this is an incredibly fair place to go out and

do a day's work and get the money at the end of the day rather than

thinking there is an alternative. you have promised a referendum on UK

membership of the EU in 2017, that must be your first Red Line? We are

clear, we want to see a referendum, a reform European Union. So no

poll... ? I should remind viewers that there is an act of Parliament,

a bill going through Parliament right now, for a referendum on the

EU, which comes back to the House. It is past the report stage and

comes back in November and we will be discussing it. The Lib Dems,

Labour, will have an opportunity to support what the British people

want. Lots may have changed. But it would be a Red Line for any future

coalition government question mark we are clear that it is time to have

a say. You will know from our manifesto. What is wrong with yes or

no? I cannot write the manifesto for 2015. You are asking me to project

beyond that and see in advance the election result and carry out the

negotiations that are yet to come. I'm just trying to work out how

much... I know you are committed but she won't tell me. Let's move on.

Your party has been described as nasty and blinkered. What do you

feel when he says that? We are interested in helping the most

vulnerable people in society. I think we're doing all that and more.

And it is a shame that that language was used because we have made so

much progress together. Are you getting to the end of your tether

with Mr King? I do not think it is terribly helpful for any Cabinet

minister to make comments like that. What I would say is that Nick Clegg

minister to make comments like that. is the leader of the Lib Dems and

entitled to have a view on it himself. Look at these figures on

party membership. Why has your party lost half of its members since Mr

Cameron became leader? I would like it to be more. But I think the world

has changed. People do not rush out and join political parties as they

used to. Instead they support you in different ways. If I released the

number of people who give to the party in different ways, through

donations for example, through friend memberships. If you include

that that figure goes back up. But your membership has fallen by 50% at

a time when UKIP has doubled. I do not want to to misinterpret what I

want to say. It is important to gain members. I think we will have done

that by the time of the next election. But one statistic of

interest, in the last election I had a 17,000 majority in my own

constituency. The difference was I had 1000 people helping me to

deliver leaflets and knock on the doors. The Conservative party has

changed. We now have an army of people, volunteers who are not

necessarily traditional members. The days when you expect people to give

you £25, before you accept their support, those days have passed. You

spoke about your most vulnerable marginal seats. This is a poll from

Michael Ashcroft. The 40 most marginal seats that you will be

defending. Labour is way up, you are way down and UKIP is also up. What

is happening, the Lib Dem Mo -- both are moving to Labour. And

disillusioned Conservatives are moving to UKIP. If these figures

came at an election he would lose 32 of these 40 seats. The point about

any opinion poll is that it is perhaps accurate at the moment it is

taken. We are now in a position where the economy has turned the

corner. The right thing to do was to deal with the deficit. The people

being asked about these things, they will be interested in their own

standard of living. Their mortgage payments. Why are you doing worse in

the marginal seats? National League you are kind of nip and tuck with

Labour. Well if that is the pick to come 2015, people will see that this

government has stuck to its guns. It did not go for more borrowing and

spending. And the record demonstrates that the last thing you

want to do is give the car keys back to the people who crashed it in the

first place. Lynton Crosby at this away day of Conservative MPs, his

one message was to go all out and attack Ed Miliband. It is going to

be a nasty election. That is actually not true. We are going to

focus on his policies, if he finally announces some. Everything we have

seen so far suggests it would mean more borrowing and spending. The

shadow chancellor said we would be ruthless, just a few months later,

27.9 pounds of extra spending committed by Labour. These are your

figures. I will speak to you about that during the Tory conference.

It's just after 11:30. You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming

up in just over 20 minutes. Alastair Campbell gives us his

Hello, I'm Martyn Oates. Coming up. McBride's memoirs. Until then, the

Hello, I'm Martyn Oates. Coming up. UKIP councillor who says politics is

not really his forte. There was a vacancy going for a candidate, so I

said, put me down. And here I am. I'm joined by two former MPs who are

far from has—been 's. Labours Candy Atherton was recently elected, and

John Burnett now sits in the Lord's. Conference season is underway. John,

Nick Clegg is talking boldly about coalitions in the future. We are

doing rather better than last year. But some might say that is not

saying an awful lot! The fact of the matter is, the economy is turning

up. Some of the really difficult choices we have had to make,

policies we have had to implement, as showing we —— they are having

benefit. People will realise soon that the Liberal Democrats have a

good effect on the Coalition, and support will grow. Not a great

summer for Ed Miliband. Survey for this programme says that 30% of

Labour councillors nationally think someone else would do a better job.

They didn't ask me or my fellow councillors in Cornwall, and we are

having a really good buoyant time. After the announcement from him on

the bedroom tax, which is fantastic news and will be rejoiced about by

many, I'm enjoying the conference. It is absolutely right. People like

John should hang their heads in shame at some of the policies. He

talks about things getting better, but in Cornwall, Eric Pickles's cuts

are coming down, but I described it as tsunami of cuts. We will be

outdated and reminding them who was being at the table, making the

decisions for these massive cuts. But where would you have made the

savings? I would not be putting them on the purist, and I would not be

doing tax cuts for the millionaire 's. You had a 40% top rate of tax

throughout your time. We will talk about cuts later. UKIP is hoping to

replace the Lib Dems as the third—place in British politics. One

councillor admitted he did not campaign for his seat and did not

expect to be elected. He also thinks people might have voted for him

because they thought he was a woman. It was a good day for UKIP in

Cornwall" elections, as they went from nothing to six council seats.

—— Cornwall 's collections. Mark Hicks was surprised to be elected,

but his experience on the campaign trail makes him think his party is

on the role. —— Honor Roll. I had people giving me a hug because they

were so happy there was a candidate standing for UKIP. He is not opposed

to gay marriage, is undecided on the death penalty and does not drink or

smoke. I am not a typical UKIP member. We all come from various

aspects of life. He campaigned for his seat, but UKIP has been accused

of putting up on the candidates without letting them. Viv Lewis is

another of the new intake, and is the oldest member, at 83. I am new

to politics and had not made any particular effort to get elected.

And so, obviously, getting in, I thought to be elected you would have

to put a lot into it. To just be told they have voted for you, you

are in, was quite a surprise. He believes immigration is a key reason

why he was elected. In Cornwall, immigration is not the same problem

it would be in the South. It is not. Obviously not so many people in

Cornwall. Some members have got into trouble about language they have

used around race. Councillor Lewis says his concerns about jobs and

houses for local people. I have already had a heated argument about

it. I am not racist. I like coloured people. I have been to the West

Indies and have sampled their hospitality. I like coloured people.

But I do not like people who walk into this country and immediately

get given money, and there are a lot more deserving cases among British

people. He says he has been tackling local issues like potholes and

fences. But the Nigel Farage factor seems to loom very large.

As a group, with the views you have, how do you think you can influence

things in Cornwall? I would like Mr Farage to prompt me on this because

obviously politics have never been one of my strong points. Nigel

Farage says the last thing he wants is a party of engaged politicians as

he aims high at the upcoming European and general elections. The

question now remains whether UKIP can make this work.

Earlier they spoke to the leader Nigel Farage, and asked him to

comment on the calibre of councillors like Viv Lewis.

If you go round the other parties and see the candidates they have

standing for local elections, with declining memberships elsewhere, you

will realise it is not particularly unusual. As July said I believe that

UKIP can succeed, not just in European elections, and make a real

dent in domestic politics, and on the 2nd of May, we did that. I find

that most politicians are engaged with politics, they are into

politics. We asked this councillor what his UKIP group on Cornwall

Council is doing to influence things, and he said, this is where I

would like to have Nigel Farage standing behind me to prompt me on

this because politics has never been my forte. You can click on one

person if you want to do that, and that is fine. UKIP has stunned

everyone getting 23% in the English county elections. It is a phenomenal

step forward. A couple of paper candidates got elected, but that

hardly makes us unique. To discuss this we are joined by the

UKIP chairman. Do you get restricted when you go

out of your way to emphasise that UKIP distances itself from anything

racist, and then one of your own pops up and makes a comment about

coloured people? It is an experience, really, in his case. It

is an odd fact that it is acceptable in the language of discourse to say

people of cooler, but it is not acceptable to say coloured people.

—— people of cooler. But he seemed to be equating black people with

immigration. And he admitted himself he has very little experience. But

that is rather embarrassing. Nigel Farage says you have picked on one

particular councillor, and there were 150 elected, but there are

seven who have embarrassed you. The either have convictions rather

associated far right parties. That is quite a high incidence out of

150. That is another exaggerated figures. What this bears out is what

Mark Hicks said, which is, what is a typical UKIP member? We are proud to

be an organisation that is not full of people whose ambition was to be

politicians. We are party who is made up of people who think

politicians are not doing much of our job. —— match of our job. But

you are exerting a lot of influence over people 's lives. Absolutely.

Surely you should be into politics. You will find that the group is

extremely savvy, but what we are seeing is ordinarily people getting

back into positions in political life in local authorities, through

UKIP, and I welcome that. These are people who have not decided their

life is to be politics, BR ordinarily people who have decided

to volunteer, which brings freshness back to local government. —— they

are ordinarily people. But some people vote you —— UKIP locally,

because they think Nigel Farage is worth voting for, then they get

someone who does not know what they are doing. One of the reasons people

like him is because he is not like other politicians, he is authentic.

Opel say that is what they take to. —— people say that is what they take

to. What do you make of Lord Ashcroft 's poll which says that

your relative success is likely to put Ed Miliband into number ten?

Very interesting. You looked at that looking at our effect on

Conservative marginal seats, but he did not look on Labour marginal

seats. Had he done so, I think you would find that this is a much more

interesting picture. This idea that UKIP strictly takes away votes ——

simply takes away votes from conservatives is not the case. We

have a lot of votes coming to us from people who previously voted

Liberal Democrat, and another number of votes coming from people who

voted Labour. Let me bring John Burnett and. That is worrying for

you if you look at the Eastleigh by—election, they are taking a lot

of votes from your people. They have done by some extent, but in the

general election, that is a different matter. We have 18 months

to go, and UKIP will come under great strategy, not just on the

matter of policies, but also individuals. Who will be the

economic spokesperson? Who will be the foreign affairs spokesperson? We

cannot have a one—man band political party. There have to be a strand of

individual standing up for UKIP, having to justify their policies. Do

you think it is reasonable to say that all parties put up some paper

candidates? I remember a Labour candidate not wanting to give an

interview during the general election campaign. It would be fair

to say that most political parties in some of the more difficult to win

seats put up candidates who do not expect to win. And in labour, we

have concentrated on the seats where we are working in communities,

getting out and about. —— Labour. If you are known, and if you're seen

and involved in the community, people will vote for you. It is not

about caricatures, it is about if you are involved in your community.

And clearly, Councillor Lewis is not. What do you make of someone who

says he is not into politics, effectively? You're working on a

£1.2 billion budget, which is under huge pressure from the Coalition, so

you want people who can understand finance cheat, can understand how to

budget and get things done. Cos it is a possibility and an opportunity

in local government to go and make a difference to the communities you

represent, but if you're not prepared to get involved, roll up

your sleeves, then you will not get things done. But if you are prepared

to do that, the world is your oyster. Let us get this done. Thank

you for joining us. The Lib Dem conference, Vince Cable

said they will look at cracking down on zero hours contract. Tourism

bosses say the flexibility they bring is essential.

Are you having a good day? Then here we have the cows. It often rains in

the south—west, and the unpredictable weather is what can

make the tourist industry so difficult to manage. At this farm

the ploy more than 90 people, but only 14 full—time workers. The rest

zero hours contracts. —— have zero hours contracts. They

are paid for the hours that they come and work. Partly because that's

what they want, but partly because it is what the business needs. If it

was raining heavily, there would be no pony rides, so we would ask the

people booked on them and the staff not to come on that day, and we

would make sure that happens a few times as possible to that particular

person, but a casual job is what it is, it is a seasonal job, working

with the seasons. Some unions say that zero hours contracts exploit

the employee. At the end of the day, you could be sent anywhere, asked to

do anything, and how can you have a life where you can move around a

contract that says, I am not going to get any money this week, and next

we can make to get £500. Who will get you a mortgage? Who will rent

your property? I propose to act against zero hours contracts. Vince

cable said he had secured an agreement on government to launch a

formal consultation on zero hours contracts, but tourism bosses are

concerned about the outcome. If you are running a business you need to

be able to adjust your staff accordingly and increase it quickly

as well. It is so dynamic, and we need to have that flexibility. Zero

hours contracts and flexible hours are the only way you can tackle

this. Tourism leaders will be voicing their views during the

consultation period, but they hope their changes will not affect how

they run their business. Labour has also ordered a review of

zero hours contracts. I asked Ed Miliband about change is causing

problems in the two this industry. —— the tourism industry. It should

not affect how people can bring up their kids and make ends meet. The

problem with zero hours contracts is that people do not know how many

hours they will be able to do, how much money they will get in. We want

to clamp down on abuses. Employers cannot say to people that they are

guaranteed to be available, but we will not guarantee the work. Also,

employees who work the same hours week after week, but do not get a

permanent contract. This is what the conference is about, how we tackle

this. Cross—party agreement on these

things need to change. You signed up to Vince Cable and the government 's

view? I am signed up to reviewing this. They are useful in certain

circumstances, and imperative in certain circumstances, seasonal

trade, for example. Some people have to be protected. The glories require

protection, but a lot of them already enjoy protection under the

law now, and are not realise it. So do you not think things need to

change? If people are being fit to my stand —— victimised, things need

to change. Certain businesses need these contracts. IM —— I am

speechless. I feel like I Groundhog Day. I remember sitting night after

night trying to force through the minimum wage. This is necessary. We

need to get rid of these contracts. Ed Miliband seems clear that there

are abuses which need to be addressed. But the contracts

themselves can be useful and can be flexible. Are you with the unions

who say that, actually they are evil. I can think of very few

circumstances where you can expect an employee to be on zero hours

contracts and live their lives and bring up their children and families

and in peace —— live in peace. What about places like the south—west,

where two is is an enormous industry? —— tourism? But you also

need employees who are trained and know what they are doing. There's

nothing worse than bringing in people at the last minute who do not

know what they are doing, and are not trained. What about the point

that job is than no job? There are zero hours contracts for some of the

best employees in this country. If you do not trained your employees,

if you do not treat them properly, you do not get a growth in your

industry. It is imperative you look after their employees. I have

employed many people and we supported the national minimum wage

on a regional basis. Let me just clarify that.

It is time for the regular round—up of the political week in 60 seconds.

Cuts to bus services in Cornwall. One company announces the closure of

some routes as the council makes saving of half £1 million. I do not

see their point. Many people see them wasting money in other areas,

then they cut valuable services like this.

The cost of policing alcohol—related crimes reach the top of the police

Commissioner 's agenda. Some people doubt his strategy will make a

difference. I have been to so many meetings, and

it is the people on the ground who will sort this out, not the people

who want to make names for themselves.

The government issued an official apology to those affected by the

water poisoning incident 25 years ago.

And bringing history to life. Saltash councillors hope this model

of the town 's famous previous resident will be a magnet.

We seem to be making train journeys between London and Birmingham even

faster than they are at the moment, but cutting bus services in

Cornwall. Absolutely dreadful. I do not support each is to. I think

while we have train services that are so slow, and while we are

cutting buses in Cornwall, and they fear more and more cuts coming down

the line, the priorities are all wrong. I do not want to hear

whingeing from Lib Dem and Tory MPs about the cuts at Cornwall Council.

I can see them running petitions, but this is down to the government.

In terms of rural services, this is difficult, isn't it? We are now

seeing a reluctance in the way to preserve rural services. We have to

cut expenditure, that is the topic of the next general election. We

have not trained in expenditure anything like Labour were going to.

They are going to have the deficit. —— cut the deficit in half. The

point you make is a good one. Transport in rural areas is not a

luxury, it is a necessity. And on that, we must leave it.

only if the ball comes to me. Bob Blackman and Sadiq Khan, thanks very

much. Leafing through the papers the Blackman and Sadiq Khan, thanks very

last few days has taken me back to my youth. The halcyon days of the

2000s, when the warring Blairite and Brownite tribes fought over who

should run the Labour Party. Gordon Brown's chief spin doctor Damian

McBride - McPoison, or worse, to his enemies - has published his memoirs,

timed for maximum impact in the week of Labour's Conference. They detail

how Mr McBride briefed against colleagues, brought down Cabinet

Ministers - Labour Cabinet Ministers, that is - and fought

tooth and nail to promote the man he called "the greatest man he ever

met" - Gordon Brown. Joining us now is Tony Blair's former Director of

Communications, Alastair Campbell. You are angry about what he has done

in this book. Why is that. It is partly the fact that he has done it

in a way that will be -- will be damaging to the Labour Party at this

time. But also because of the lies that he told at the time that he now

confirms. I was director of communications and trying to hold

the thing together, build the team. There was also Charlie Whelan and

others. And that job was made more difficult than it should have been.

I used to challenge Gordon Brown about it. And there came a stage

where I said if Whelan does not go, I will go. And when Damian McBride

was on the scene I was clear that I was not going to have anything to do

with him. Because of what he is now admitting to, I think they played

quite a significant part in pushing Labour out of power. Because the

public were being fed by them, this narrative, the whole time. That

Blair was useless, Charles Clarke was useless. And I think that we

where the government and had very good ministers trying to do big

things for the country. I said this morning it was like being a foot

tall team were on the pitch you had your own players kicking the star

players. That is why I am angry about it because I think they helped

usher in a conservative government. If we had all stuck together I think

we would still be there. The If we had all stuck together I think

did not win the last election, that is a reasonable point. But surely

they were only doing that to undermine Tony Blair and to promote

their man, Gordon Brown. It is inconceivable then that Gordon Brown

did not know about it. Well in spite of everything I always had a

reasonably good relationship with Gordon Brown. I used to challenge

him a lot about what Whelan was doing. He would always say, I will

sort it out. Another thing that annoys me is this sense put forward

by the right wing media that there was this sense of equivalence.

People like Steve who I have known for years, there is not a single

journalist with the very occasional exception where I lost my temper,

who would honestly be able to tell you that I ever breathed against

ministers. That was my golden rule. So we were presented as being...

People say you were the forerunner. I know it was not the case. One of

the reasons why I do despise what they did, the whole spin thing which

Peter and I are probably most associated with, once I wrote a

piece where I spoke about the journalists as the spin doctors. But

actually within the government, I journalists as the spin doctors. But

had a principle of maximum openness and trust. Anyone could come to the

morning meetings on condition that what was discussed their state as

part of the team. I had to say to Gordon Brown, your people are not

coming. Because I knew where it was coming from. Did you know that the

time but Charles Clarke and others were effectively being destroyed

from within the Labour government? I certainly knew that they thought

that. I did know journalists telling me that that was what was happening.

Ultimately, this is why I never buy this thing that you can blame

leaders, it is ultimately up to the litre. Possibly in a different age

Gordon Brown would have been an amazing Prime Minister. He was a

great chancellor. But he had a flaw, this need for truly horrible

people to be around him doing truly horrible things in politics and

giving him and the Labour Party and politics a bad name. That is why I'm

still angry about Damian McBride. What do you make of it? The current

administration is a contrast. We have rival factions occupying the

same offices but they still get on. The only time they have a row is

when something really big happens. But with that one party in Downing

Street there was fighting the whole time. Did Ed Balls know about this.

I would assume so. I spoke with him about it at the time. He told me at

the time that he had spoken about it with Gordon Brown. So I think there

was a concern from within that camp about some of these activities at

the time. With this myth of equivalence, in life you expect to

see that there is full on both sides. But I do not buy it in this

see that there is full on both case. If you look at the testimonies

see that there is full on both over the years, what you can surmise

about the character of Gordon Brown and of Tony Blair, it was ultimately

driven by Gordon Brown and the people around him. The Blairites did

things but they did then by way of retaliation rather than initiation.

The one-time when I did lose it was the whole psychological force thing.

That came at the end of a period when we were relentlessly being done

in by Charlie Whelan and his gang of journalists. I would go along to

briefings and Stephen and his colleagues would be there and I just

had to sit there and not hit back. Saying I cannot believe Gordon Brown

would have anything to do with this. You get to the stage where your own

credibility is on the line. Coming on the Labour conference. The

promotion of alcohol awareness. But before that the Labour Party, you

never had to deal with this in opposition because you were pretty

far ahead in the polls by midterm. This time that is not the case. It

is surprisingly narrow. What advice would you give to Ed Miliband? To

keep his head out side of this bubble but it's all about him. And

to use this week to really speak to the British people about himself,

about what he believes. And particularly the kind of policy

agenda he is shaping for the future. And start to heart -- start to hit

the Tories hard. They're not pop, they're not competent. They're

screwing up the health service. And yet they are neck and neck. I would

say that the whole Shadow Cabinet and Labour Party has got to

understand that you win elections by wanting to win elections every

minute of every day. There is too much complacency. A small lead now

you have to grow that. You do that with energy and conviction and

policy. Tony Blair had a huge pole bead in the run-up to 1997. We were

winning seat where we had not even campaigned and he was saying, why

celebrate because we have not won yet. You are promoting your alcohol

awareness campaign. Perhaps the party conference is not the best

place to do that! That is one reason why I am doing that. I'm hosting

probably the only alcohol free reception of the week! There is

nothing worse than a convert, I know that. But I travel a lot. I travel

around the world and Britain has a reputation as being the blues

capital of the world. That is something we should be ashamed of.

Why is that, is it cultural? I think it is historical. But I dig David

Cameron was right to go for minimum unit pricing and wrong to do a

reversal. 6% of alcoholics get treatment. I expect that drugs are a

problem but we spent £2 billion on 100,000 problem drug takers and £91

million on 1.6 million problem drinkers. Part of this campaign, you

have written this book about a young drinkers. Part of this campaign, you

alcoholic, a teenager. And it is in the first person. People could think

you are writing about yourself. Why did you choose a teenage girl? Well

partly, I dedicated this to the families of alcoholics. And I

dedicated it to one doctor in Southampton. He told me when he

started his career that his patience was split nine to one, men to women

and it is now 50 - 50. They're getting younger and younger. One

doctor looking after me said I will take you around this hospital and

the problems of alcohol are in every single ward. Not just accident and

emergency. I watched the foot all, just can't the number of

advertisements for gambling and advertising. How have we allowed

this to happen, ? We are just awash with it. What we did I think on

24-hour licensing was a mistake. Availability and price either too

means by which you can bring this down. And the country that has had

the biggest success on this is Russia, bizarrely. Thank you very

much for that. That's all for today. Thanks to all our guests. I'll be

back on BBC Two tomorrow at 11:30am with live coverage of Labour Party

Conference, including the speech from the man who wants to be the

next Chancellor, Ed Balls. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday

Politics.