22/09/2013 Sunday Politics South West


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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband and the


rest of the Labour clan are in Brighton for their party conference


this weekend. He's promised policies galore. But as a Sunday Politics


poll finds a third of his own councillors don't think he's doing a


good job, will that be enough to steady the Labour ship?


Back in Westminster, they're partying like it's 2006, as Damian


McBride's memoirs re-ignite the Blair-Brown wars. Alastair Campbell


will tell us why he is sickened by the former Brown spin doctor.


And speaking of political infighting, Conservative Party


Chairman Grant Shapps will give his response to the rampant Tory-bashing


In the South West. Tourism bosses at the Lib Dem Conference And with


In the South West. Tourism bosses fight to keep casual contracts.


And UKIP's hairy biker who thinks he may


And UKIP's hairy biker who thinks he business. In London, Labour commands


over the two thirds of the ethnic minority vote but now stands accused


of institutional racism. Are they right? With me, the best and the


brightest political panel in the business. Isabel Hardman, Janan


Ganesh and Steve Richards. They'll be tweeting like demented Damians


throughout the programme. First today, scrapping the bedroom tax.


Universal childcare for primary school kids. More apprenticeships.


Labour Conference only begins in earnest today, but the policy and


spending commitments are coming thick and fast. Not before time,


according to the Labour leader's critics. He's been out and about


this morning and told Andrew Marr that he knew it was going to be a


tough fight in the run up to 2015. It is about a party that lost office


three years ago. We are trying to be a one term opposition. That is


tough. I believe it is a fight that we can win and I am up for that


fight. The stakes are so high for young people who want a job, for


people whose living standards are being squeezed. For people who think


that this is not good enough for Britain. So what do key Labour Party


activists - its councillors - think about the direction Mr Miliband is


taking their party? Adam Fleming is in Brighton at the Party Conference


with all the details of our latest exclusive Sunday Politics survey.


Labour have unwrapped their conference set. Let us unwrap them.


With the help of an opinion poll we surveyed 1350 Labour councillors


across England and Wales. We wanted to find out what they think as


Labour gathers for its conference. The Labour leader warmed up for the


week by taking to his soap box in Brighton city centre. It is great


week by taking to his soap box in be here. In our survey 31% of


councillors said they did not think Ed Miliband was doing a good job as


leader. 30% said they thought the party would have a better chance if


someone else was in charge at the next election. You will see more of


Ed Miliband as we run-up to general election. He has been in the job for


three years! Now it is crunch time. The other Ed, Ed Balls, was disliked


by roughly one third of the party as well. Ed Balls is not a pop your


man. He says things and he speaks his mind. -- not a popular man.


Sometimes he is not the most diplomatic. Sadly Ed Balls did not


seem to be that bothered about our survey. Over at a conference centre


the exhibitors were starting up. When it comes to relations with


trade unions, the majority of Labour councillors thought things were


absolutely fine. Just 9% thought things with the unions were a little


bit too close. Tricky because Ed Miliband want to loosen the link.


The shadow environment secretary arrived in Brighton ride bicycle


from London to raise money for charity. When we as Labour


councillors what they would do if the next election results in a hung


parliament, just over half said they would tell the lid Dems to get on


their bikes. We would never say no to going into coalition. It gives us


the chance to be in government and prepare some of the damage of the


last three years. So are you going to start being nice about the Lib


Dems? I always treat them with courtesy. And the parties admitted


that perhaps they had opened the door to too many immigrants. It in


our survey Labour councillors of warming the felt that immigration


had been positive for the UK. We're now joined by the Shadow Chief


Secretary to the Treasury, Rachel Reeves. Good morning. Let us start


with Ed Miliband. Is it true that the team insisted that he be called


the leader? I just call him Ed and I think the rest of the Shadow Cabinet


do. Do you welcome working for a leader that says he is winning back


socialism? We are a democratic socialist party. We make no


apologies for that. The most important thing is that we have the


apologies for that. The most policies that will improve people 's


lives and tackle the cost of living crisis facing so many families.


Policies like expanding childcare, offering more apprenticeships, all


policies that I think the country are calling out for after three


years of a flat-lining economy and seeing prices rise faster than wages


for 38 out of the 39 months but David Cameron has been Prime


Minister. I think that is the most important thing. So it is OK now to


risk their to the Labour Party again as the Socialist party? The clue is


in the name, we stand up for working people. You are socialist party


according to the leader. We have always been the Labour Party, that


is our name and we stand up for working people, not the privileged


few like this government with their tax cuts for millionaires. Those are


policies that help just the privileged few. The Labour Party is


about helping everyone in Britain, all families. Interesting that your


run don't use the word socialist. In our survey one third of Labour


councillors said Ed Miliband was not doing a good job as leader. If he


cannot convince his own councillors, who can he convince?


Well you could say that two thirds of councillors think that he is the


right leader. But these are Labour councillors. The overall majority of


Labour councillors think that he is doing a good job. What matters is


the results on election day. Two thirds of councillors think that he


is doing a good job. That us see what they say at the end of this


week. Because I think the policies he is announcing will go down well


week. Because I think the policies with Labour Party people and will


also resonate with the British public. Policies like expanding


apprenticeships, giving a break to hard-working families who are


struggling. I think people will see what kind of a leader that he is.


Well he has a mountain to climb among all voters. Let me ask the


question. Just 12% see him as a Prime Minister in waiting, just 2%


see him as a natural leader. Why? If Prime Minister in waiting, just 2%


you look at the overall opinion polls, we are consistently ahead in


those polls. It is hard being leader of the opposition, you cannot


demonstrate how you would be Prime Minister. By nature you are in


opposition. But he has taken on Rupert Murdoch and the press barons.


That is strong leadership, standing up to the vast majority. If you look


at his reforms to our relationship with the trade unions, strengthening


ties with individual members. I think that he is a strong leader


making the right decisions. If that is the case, why has the Labour lead


gone from 14 points one year ago to at most four points now. What went


wrong? Well we are six or eight points ahead in the polls today. We


are six or eight points ahead in the polls today. We're still


consistently ahead. It looks as if we would get an overall majority if


there was an election tomorrow. But we have more work to do to convince


more people to vote for Labour. But this is a historic challenge, to be


a one term Labour opposition. I believe that Ed Miliband will be the


next Labour Prime Minister and will be an excellent Prime Minister. The


big policy announcement today is the guaranteed childcare for all primary


school children. How much will that cost? When Labour were in


government, they ring fenced money to provide after-school --


after-school and breakfast clubs. We think that money should be ring


fenced again. How much will it cost? We are saying that schools


within their budgets should be able to provide that. At the moment they


can charge for children to come to their first clubs. But this is a


policy that does not involve additional money. As it was under


the last Labour government it will be about ring fencing money because


we think that this is a priority. This is something that the schools


should do. You cannot ring fenced money you do not have. You saying


you could provide wraparound childcare for every family


schoolchild from eight o'clock in the morning until six o'clock at


night and it will not cost any more money? Well we did ring fence that


money in the last Labour government. That money is gone! It has not gone.


It is about priorities and we are saying that it should be a priority


to provide that wraparound care. So where is the money being spent now


that you would take it from? If we look at some of the things that this


government is doing, building free schools in areas where there are


already enough. That is capital spending. We are ring fencing that


many. Again, it is different priorities. We had the ring fence


when we were in government. It would be reintroduced so that schools had


to offer that wraparound care. Of course schools can charge a small


to offer that wraparound care. Of fee for their breakfast clubs and


after-school DVDs. But the important thing is that provision is there for


parents going out to work. Ed Balls and Ed Miliband are at the heart of


the Brown project. Damien Wright was the hit man. Is it not inconceivable


that they did not know what he was the hit man. Is it not inconceivable


up to. It is inconceivable that they did not -- Damian McBride. I am


asking about Damian McBride. What I'm saying is that I was not there.


I was not there under the last Labour government. But I do know


that these things are not happening under the leadership of Ed Miliband.


He has led by example. There is not that backstabbing going on. There is


no plotting against Ed Balls going on? I do not see that. And anyone


who briefed against colleagues should be sacked, I agree with that.


Nick Clegg's conference speech made it clear he was repaired to work


with Ed Miliband in the event of a hung parliament. Are you excited by


that prospect or is it just boring? That is very generous of Nick Clegg


to say that. With his poll ratings of 9%. I think it is up to the


general public to decide who they want to form a government. We are


campaigning for an overall Labour government at the next election. Are


you excited by the prospect, or is that just boring boring? I want to


serve in a Labour government is not a coalition government. That is what


we are campaigning for. Thank you for joining us. Steve Richards, what


has Ed Miliband got to do this week? He has got to start to win the


argument about the economy. I think they will be quite clever on that in


terms of saying that the recovery has begun but it is not going to


benefit many of the voters. Unlike previous economic recoveries. That


is a strong line and they need to make that again and again. The


recovery has barely started. The make that again and again. The


interesting thing, Isabel, they want to make a living standards the issue


now because growth has returned, let's return to living standards


which have been squeezed. The polls show that twice as many people blame


Labour for the living standards than the Conservatives. It is a great


scene for them to mine, and it is the only one before they announce


big policies, but they have not gained the trust of voters on the


economy, so the Conservatives can say they are finishing the job of


fixing the recovery now and then we'll focus on living standards,


whereas Labour is trying to say, you cannot quite trust us with the


economy but we will talk about living standards. Ed Miliband's main


job this week is to begin elucidating policies and not just


themes, and that makes elucidating policies and not just


incredibly vulnerable. The only thing worse than not having a policy


for an opposition leader is to have a policy. It gives the opposition


something to attack, the media something to scrutinise and it makes


you bold rubble and you can see that coming through already before the


conference has started. You have sketchy ideas on child, --


childcare. Spigot can he provide wraparound childcare for free? --


can he provide wraparound childcare for free? I don't even know what it


is. Opposition is emphatically an art form, and the art form, and the


artform for them at the moment is to announce policies without spending


any money and it is very difficult to do. You gave an illustration of


how difficult it is. They are under huge pressure, for the last year, to


announce policies and they announce one on childcare and you immediately


say, how do you paper it? And she immediately says, we will not spend


a penny on it, because they are terrified of spending anything. This


is where it an artform. The tax suspension before and election is


crazy, because they will find money one way or another, but in another


way, they cannot say we will spend money on this. It is a real problem.


How do you measure the state of the coalition after the Liberal Democrat


conference? The Liberal Democrats were in a very strong position after


their conference, Nick Clegg had faced and activists on some issues,


including fracking, which they supported, which seem to be the most


important part of the conference. In terms of the coalition, the Tories


have had to sit and watch as Vince Cable, Nick Clegg and Coe have


basically criticised them and said they are evil and only the Lib Dems


can make sure the Government is fair and works properly. So in terms of


how the coalition works, you can expect to see some revenge at the


Tory conference. The Lib Dems, Nick Clegg's followers, they had their


revenge. Mister Clegg may have convinced his own activists to stay


behind him, but he has a bigger challenge, which is called


convincing the British people. There is some interesting polling they


have done privately that suggests there is a market of about 25% of


the electorate which is plausibly open to them, and all they have to


do is target policies remorselessly at that group, rather than the


broader public, in order to do well enough at the next election to hold


the balance of power. That is why policies that seem weird to us, like


free school meals regardless of income, may perversely make sense to


them. Because it appeals to their demographic. It is a strange


political world we are in, the Labour strategists think they can


win with 35%, the Lib Dems are going to concentrate on 25. The Tories


have seized to be a national party any more. We haven't been used to it


for a long time. In the 80s, one party dominated, the Tories. In the


90s into the 21st century, the policy matter delayed the Labour


Party dominated. -- the Labour party dominated. We are now here but we


have other parties hoping that 36% will give them a small overall


majority and it is the best they can get. It is a very odd situation


where the main two parties feel they can lose and the Lib Dems are openly


targeting only 25%. They have gotten rid of 75% already and it is a long


way from the policies of last couple of decades Nick Clegg talked about


all of the policies he had locked. There is a real opportunity for the


Conservatives to say that he is blocking all of the things that


voters outside of our bays are interested in, top immigration


policy, human rights reform, that sort of thing. David Cameron can say


that in Manchester next week. One thing was quite clear, it came out


of this awayday, and and this is this, that when you look at Mister


Miller band's polls, the Tories are going to make this a presidential


election -- Ed Miliband's polls. Which is why I am curious why they


are not more keen on TV debates. When the strength of your party is


the visibility of your leader against his opponents, why not have


him or her juxtaposed against them in 90 minutes three times a week.


Let's turn now to the coalition. The past week has given us inklings of


how the yellow half of the Government is planning on fighting


how the yellow half of the the General Election.


When the Lib Dems gathered for their annual shindig in Glasgow, some


ministers were non-too complimentary about their blue blood fellows. --


bedfellows. Vince Cable led the way in stick in the boot in, saying the


Tories had reverted to type as a nasty party and describe their


politics as ugly, cynical, callous and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not


restrict himself to policies that and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not


the Lib Dems had champion, such as and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not


increasing the amount you can earn before paying tax. The Deputy Prime


Minister proudly listed all of the things he had stopped the Tories


from doing. Speak of scrapping housing benefit the young people,


no. No to ditching the human rights act. No to weakening the protections


in the equalities act. So how much of a break have the yellow brigade


being on Conservative ambitions question mark in the two leaders


shake hands again after the 20 15th election, what policies were David


Cameron insist on. -- 2015? No matter how many times Nick Clegg


says no? matter how many times Nick Clegg


And Grant Shapps joins me the Sunday Interview.


Grant Shapps, good morning. Nick Clegg, Doctor Know himself,


self-styled. He boasted to his conference that he had stopped the


Tories from going ahead with 16 policies in government. Is this


accurate? I don't know but what I can tell you, as your commentator


Isabel said, some of the policies that we wanted them if we were a


majority government sent out to be very popular things, like reforming


the human rights act and some of the problems that provides when it comes


to sending people who have no right to be in this country back. So there


may be some things we could have made progress on. You are in


government, did he stop the inheritance tax cut? I don't know


the details, but I think it is absolutely true to say that


coalitions are a process of negotiation and sometimes you can't


get everything you want, and we had done the best, given where the


electoral maths left us. That is why 70 people in this country say they


would rather see a single party running the country -- why so many


people. I have to say I agree. They are not sure which single party.


Give me a couple of major policies that you would introduce if you had


had a majority in 2010 and were not held back by the Lib Dems. Speaking


the one I just mentioned would be the Human Rights Act. In This


Country, we have had 1,000 years of developing the law and we are more


than capable of putting in place sensible laws. you would have left


the European Court of human rights. We have already started the process


of negotiation. There was some progress, but limited, and we would


like to move further. Let me give you one other. I think this country


has a great future but we can only grasp that country if we make


ourselves the best place in the world to come and set up a business.


ourselves the best place in the If we make ourselves the best place


in Europe to develop jobs and entrepreneurship and I think there


are a host of things we could do to go further on cutting back red tape.


And the Lib Dems have stopped you? I think that is the case. In what


ways, if any, have the Lib Dems improved the coalition process? It


has been a stable government. No one talks about when the next election


will come, we know it is in May 2015 but that is in part being in a


coalition. The Tories wouldn't have done that? It wasn't the plan of any


party to go from... In the old days, there would have been speculation.


You turned it into a national debate, you changed the British


constitution in a fundamental way and nobody got a say. It was debated


on the floor of the Has, as all constitutional changes are and there


was a lot of agreement -- of the House. Nobody has ever said to me


that it is a problem that we now have a fixed term parliament. Here


it is, every five years. This is what it has done, it has provided


stability in an incredibly uncertain economic time and that has been good


for the economy. we will chalk that up to delete -- Lib Dem. What about


taking people out of tax, the Lib Dems did that question mark it is a


great policy. It is a conservative led government, it is a Conservative


government massively Chancellor. This is a screen grab from your


party's website, income tax cut to 25 million people. You are taking


the credit for it, it wouldn't have happened without the Lib Dems. It


certainly came about because of the coalition and we put it in the


coalition agreement. It could not have happened without a Conservative


Chancellor making it happen. It is right, 25 million people taken out


of tax. Another 17 by this April will not be paying tax at all. you


didn't want to do it. Look at what David Cameron told Nick Clegg during


the leaders debate in 2010. What Nick Clegg is promising is a


£17 billion tax cut. We are saying, stop the waste of 6 billion to stop


the national insurance rise. I would love to take everyone out of their


first £10,000 of income tax, it is a love to take everyone out of their


beautiful idea but we cannot afford it. It wasn't in your manifesto.


Mister Cameron said it was unaffordable and now you are taking


the credit for it. I feel like it is having a three year afterwards


argument, and we got into coalition because the British people put us


there and we agreed to make the best of it. And as it happens, if you


want to hear a confession, I absolutely think it is the right


thing to take as many people out of tax entirely as possible. Two points


7 million people pay no tax at all because of this rise in the


threshold. -- 2.7 million. I'm pleased it worked out. What are the


most important thing is a majority Tory government would do after 2015,


unencumbered by the Lib Dems? I think produce even more jobs when


unemployment goes down, because we think produce even more jobs when


are the most entrepreneurial place to set up a business. Are more


free-market economy? We make our money because we are out global


trading economy. That is why it is so important that we have to make


sure it is easy to trade around the world. One simple example, it is


crazy in my view that we have global tariffs that prevent some of the


hardest other countries in the world, in developing parts of the


world, from exporting to us and vice versa. I'm giving you a platform of


things that I think we would be more interested in progressing in. It


sounds like you are talking about even more Thatcherite, market led


agendas. I think that you did a huge amount to show this country that if


you want to help the least well off people in society, and the least


well off people in the world, around the globe, the way to do it is to


trade, and I think we should have an economy which is much more open to


free trade. If there is another hung parliament, and the poll suggest


there might be, at the moment it is all to play for on both sides, what


would your non-negotiable Red Line speak? We are still two years away


from that, it is a long way away, but there is a lot we want to lay


out. What we are going to be saying to this country is most people want


a single party running the country, they think it is clean and clear and


you don't end up with negotiation after an election. We will be


setting out a very clear platform which will be for hard-working


people in this country who want to work hard and get on in life. We


would, I think, want to see the welfare state that we have got into,


where it is no longer about helping those most in need but became a


situation where you are better off not working than in worker, I think


we plan to ensure that this is an incredibly fair place to go out and


do a day's work and get the money at the end of the day rather than


thinking there is an alternative. you have promised a referendum on UK


membership of the EU in 2017, that must be your first Red Line? We are


clear, we want to see a referendum, a reform European Union. So no


poll... ? I should remind viewers that there is an act of Parliament,


a bill going through Parliament right now, for a referendum on the


EU, which comes back to the House. It is past the report stage and


comes back in November and we will be discussing it. The Lib Dems,


Labour, will have an opportunity to support what the British people


want. Lots may have changed. But it would be a Red Line for any future


coalition government question mark we are clear that it is time to have


a say. You will know from our manifesto. What is wrong with yes or


no? I cannot write the manifesto for 2015. You are asking me to project


beyond that and see in advance the election result and carry out the


negotiations that are yet to come. I'm just trying to work out how


much... I know you are committed but she won't tell me. Let's move on.


Your party has been described as nasty and blinkered. What do you


feel when he says that? We are interested in helping the most


vulnerable people in society. I think we're doing all that and more.


And it is a shame that that language was used because we have made so


much progress together. Are you getting to the end of your tether


with Mr King? I do not think it is terribly helpful for any Cabinet


minister to make comments like that. What I would say is that Nick Clegg


minister to make comments like that. is the leader of the Lib Dems and


entitled to have a view on it himself. Look at these figures on


party membership. Why has your party lost half of its members since Mr


Cameron became leader? I would like it to be more. But I think the world


has changed. People do not rush out and join political parties as they


used to. Instead they support you in different ways. If I released the


number of people who give to the party in different ways, through


donations for example, through friend memberships. If you include


that that figure goes back up. But your membership has fallen by 50% at


a time when UKIP has doubled. I do not want to to misinterpret what I


want to say. It is important to gain members. I think we will have done


that by the time of the next election. But one statistic of


interest, in the last election I had a 17,000 majority in my own


constituency. The difference was I had 1000 people helping me to


deliver leaflets and knock on the doors. The Conservative party has


changed. We now have an army of people, volunteers who are not


necessarily traditional members. The days when you expect people to give


you £25, before you accept their support, those days have passed. You


spoke about your most vulnerable marginal seats. This is a poll from


Michael Ashcroft. The 40 most marginal seats that you will be


defending. Labour is way up, you are way down and UKIP is also up. What


is happening, the Lib Dem Mo -- both are moving to Labour. And


disillusioned Conservatives are moving to UKIP. If these figures


came at an election he would lose 32 of these 40 seats. The point about


any opinion poll is that it is perhaps accurate at the moment it is


taken. We are now in a position where the economy has turned the


corner. The right thing to do was to deal with the deficit. The people


being asked about these things, they will be interested in their own


standard of living. Their mortgage payments. Why are you doing worse in


the marginal seats? National League you are kind of nip and tuck with


Labour. Well if that is the pick to come 2015, people will see that this


government has stuck to its guns. It did not go for more borrowing and


spending. And the record demonstrates that the last thing you


want to do is give the car keys back to the people who crashed it in the


first place. Lynton Crosby at this away day of Conservative MPs, his


one message was to go all out and attack Ed Miliband. It is going to


be a nasty election. That is actually not true. We are going to


focus on his policies, if he finally announces some. Everything we have


seen so far suggests it would mean more borrowing and spending. The


shadow chancellor said we would be ruthless, just a few months later,


27.9 pounds of extra spending committed by Labour. These are your


figures. I will speak to you about that during the Tory conference.


It's just after 11:30. You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming


up in just over 20 minutes. Alastair Campbell gives us his


Hello, I'm Martyn Oates. Coming up. McBride's memoirs. Until then, the


Hello, I'm Martyn Oates. Coming up. UKIP councillor who says politics is


not really his forte. There was a vacancy going for a candidate, so I


said, put me down. And here I am. I'm joined by two former MPs who are


far from has—been 's. Labours Candy Atherton was recently elected, and


John Burnett now sits in the Lord's. Conference season is underway. John,


Nick Clegg is talking boldly about coalitions in the future. We are


doing rather better than last year. But some might say that is not


saying an awful lot! The fact of the matter is, the economy is turning


up. Some of the really difficult choices we have had to make,


policies we have had to implement, as showing we —— they are having


benefit. People will realise soon that the Liberal Democrats have a


good effect on the Coalition, and support will grow. Not a great


summer for Ed Miliband. Survey for this programme says that 30% of


Labour councillors nationally think someone else would do a better job.


They didn't ask me or my fellow councillors in Cornwall, and we are


having a really good buoyant time. After the announcement from him on


the bedroom tax, which is fantastic news and will be rejoiced about by


many, I'm enjoying the conference. It is absolutely right. People like


John should hang their heads in shame at some of the policies. He


talks about things getting better, but in Cornwall, Eric Pickles's cuts


are coming down, but I described it as tsunami of cuts. We will be


outdated and reminding them who was being at the table, making the


decisions for these massive cuts. But where would you have made the


savings? I would not be putting them on the purist, and I would not be


doing tax cuts for the millionaire 's. You had a 40% top rate of tax


throughout your time. We will talk about cuts later. UKIP is hoping to


replace the Lib Dems as the third—place in British politics. One


councillor admitted he did not campaign for his seat and did not


expect to be elected. He also thinks people might have voted for him


because they thought he was a woman. It was a good day for UKIP in


Cornwall" elections, as they went from nothing to six council seats.


—— Cornwall 's collections. Mark Hicks was surprised to be elected,


but his experience on the campaign trail makes him think his party is


on the role. —— Honor Roll. I had people giving me a hug because they


were so happy there was a candidate standing for UKIP. He is not opposed


to gay marriage, is undecided on the death penalty and does not drink or


smoke. I am not a typical UKIP member. We all come from various


aspects of life. He campaigned for his seat, but UKIP has been accused


of putting up on the candidates without letting them. Viv Lewis is


another of the new intake, and is the oldest member, at 83. I am new


to politics and had not made any particular effort to get elected.


And so, obviously, getting in, I thought to be elected you would have


to put a lot into it. To just be told they have voted for you, you


are in, was quite a surprise. He believes immigration is a key reason


why he was elected. In Cornwall, immigration is not the same problem


it would be in the South. It is not. Obviously not so many people in


Cornwall. Some members have got into trouble about language they have


used around race. Councillor Lewis says his concerns about jobs and


houses for local people. I have already had a heated argument about


it. I am not racist. I like coloured people. I have been to the West


Indies and have sampled their hospitality. I like coloured people.


But I do not like people who walk into this country and immediately


get given money, and there are a lot more deserving cases among British


people. He says he has been tackling local issues like potholes and


fences. But the Nigel Farage factor seems to loom very large.


As a group, with the views you have, how do you think you can influence


things in Cornwall? I would like Mr Farage to prompt me on this because


obviously politics have never been one of my strong points. Nigel


Farage says the last thing he wants is a party of engaged politicians as


he aims high at the upcoming European and general elections. The


question now remains whether UKIP can make this work.


Earlier they spoke to the leader Nigel Farage, and asked him to


comment on the calibre of councillors like Viv Lewis.


If you go round the other parties and see the candidates they have


standing for local elections, with declining memberships elsewhere, you


will realise it is not particularly unusual. As July said I believe that


UKIP can succeed, not just in European elections, and make a real


dent in domestic politics, and on the 2nd of May, we did that. I find


that most politicians are engaged with politics, they are into


politics. We asked this councillor what his UKIP group on Cornwall


Council is doing to influence things, and he said, this is where I


would like to have Nigel Farage standing behind me to prompt me on


this because politics has never been my forte. You can click on one


person if you want to do that, and that is fine. UKIP has stunned


everyone getting 23% in the English county elections. It is a phenomenal


step forward. A couple of paper candidates got elected, but that


hardly makes us unique. To discuss this we are joined by the


UKIP chairman. Do you get restricted when you go


out of your way to emphasise that UKIP distances itself from anything


racist, and then one of your own pops up and makes a comment about


coloured people? It is an experience, really, in his case. It


is an odd fact that it is acceptable in the language of discourse to say


people of cooler, but it is not acceptable to say coloured people.


—— people of cooler. But he seemed to be equating black people with


immigration. And he admitted himself he has very little experience. But


that is rather embarrassing. Nigel Farage says you have picked on one


particular councillor, and there were 150 elected, but there are


seven who have embarrassed you. The either have convictions rather


associated far right parties. That is quite a high incidence out of


150. That is another exaggerated figures. What this bears out is what


Mark Hicks said, which is, what is a typical UKIP member? We are proud to


be an organisation that is not full of people whose ambition was to be


politicians. We are party who is made up of people who think


politicians are not doing much of our job. —— match of our job. But


you are exerting a lot of influence over people 's lives. Absolutely.


Surely you should be into politics. You will find that the group is


extremely savvy, but what we are seeing is ordinarily people getting


back into positions in political life in local authorities, through


UKIP, and I welcome that. These are people who have not decided their


life is to be politics, BR ordinarily people who have decided


to volunteer, which brings freshness back to local government. —— they


are ordinarily people. But some people vote you —— UKIP locally,


because they think Nigel Farage is worth voting for, then they get


someone who does not know what they are doing. One of the reasons people


like him is because he is not like other politicians, he is authentic.


Opel say that is what they take to. —— people say that is what they take


to. What do you make of Lord Ashcroft 's poll which says that


your relative success is likely to put Ed Miliband into number ten?


Very interesting. You looked at that looking at our effect on


Conservative marginal seats, but he did not look on Labour marginal


seats. Had he done so, I think you would find that this is a much more


interesting picture. This idea that UKIP strictly takes away votes ——


simply takes away votes from conservatives is not the case. We


have a lot of votes coming to us from people who previously voted


Liberal Democrat, and another number of votes coming from people who


voted Labour. Let me bring John Burnett and. That is worrying for


you if you look at the Eastleigh by—election, they are taking a lot


of votes from your people. They have done by some extent, but in the


general election, that is a different matter. We have 18 months


to go, and UKIP will come under great strategy, not just on the


matter of policies, but also individuals. Who will be the


economic spokesperson? Who will be the foreign affairs spokesperson? We


cannot have a one—man band political party. There have to be a strand of


individual standing up for UKIP, having to justify their policies. Do


you think it is reasonable to say that all parties put up some paper


candidates? I remember a Labour candidate not wanting to give an


interview during the general election campaign. It would be fair


to say that most political parties in some of the more difficult to win


seats put up candidates who do not expect to win. And in labour, we


have concentrated on the seats where we are working in communities,


getting out and about. —— Labour. If you are known, and if you're seen


and involved in the community, people will vote for you. It is not


about caricatures, it is about if you are involved in your community.


And clearly, Councillor Lewis is not. What do you make of someone who


says he is not into politics, effectively? You're working on a


£1.2 billion budget, which is under huge pressure from the Coalition, so


you want people who can understand finance cheat, can understand how to


budget and get things done. Cos it is a possibility and an opportunity


in local government to go and make a difference to the communities you


represent, but if you're not prepared to get involved, roll up


your sleeves, then you will not get things done. But if you are prepared


to do that, the world is your oyster. Let us get this done. Thank


you for joining us. The Lib Dem conference, Vince Cable


said they will look at cracking down on zero hours contract. Tourism


bosses say the flexibility they bring is essential.


Are you having a good day? Then here we have the cows. It often rains in


the south—west, and the unpredictable weather is what can


make the tourist industry so difficult to manage. At this farm


the ploy more than 90 people, but only 14 full—time workers. The rest


zero hours contracts. —— have zero hours contracts. They


are paid for the hours that they come and work. Partly because that's


what they want, but partly because it is what the business needs. If it


was raining heavily, there would be no pony rides, so we would ask the


people booked on them and the staff not to come on that day, and we


would make sure that happens a few times as possible to that particular


person, but a casual job is what it is, it is a seasonal job, working


with the seasons. Some unions say that zero hours contracts exploit


the employee. At the end of the day, you could be sent anywhere, asked to


do anything, and how can you have a life where you can move around a


contract that says, I am not going to get any money this week, and next


we can make to get £500. Who will get you a mortgage? Who will rent


your property? I propose to act against zero hours contracts. Vince


cable said he had secured an agreement on government to launch a


formal consultation on zero hours contracts, but tourism bosses are


concerned about the outcome. If you are running a business you need to


be able to adjust your staff accordingly and increase it quickly


as well. It is so dynamic, and we need to have that flexibility. Zero


hours contracts and flexible hours are the only way you can tackle


this. Tourism leaders will be voicing their views during the


consultation period, but they hope their changes will not affect how


they run their business. Labour has also ordered a review of


zero hours contracts. I asked Ed Miliband about change is causing


problems in the two this industry. —— the tourism industry. It should


not affect how people can bring up their kids and make ends meet. The


problem with zero hours contracts is that people do not know how many


hours they will be able to do, how much money they will get in. We want


to clamp down on abuses. Employers cannot say to people that they are


guaranteed to be available, but we will not guarantee the work. Also,


employees who work the same hours week after week, but do not get a


permanent contract. This is what the conference is about, how we tackle


this. Cross—party agreement on these


things need to change. You signed up to Vince Cable and the government 's


view? I am signed up to reviewing this. They are useful in certain


circumstances, and imperative in certain circumstances, seasonal


trade, for example. Some people have to be protected. The glories require


protection, but a lot of them already enjoy protection under the


law now, and are not realise it. So do you not think things need to


change? If people are being fit to my stand —— victimised, things need


to change. Certain businesses need these contracts. IM —— I am


speechless. I feel like I Groundhog Day. I remember sitting night after


night trying to force through the minimum wage. This is necessary. We


need to get rid of these contracts. Ed Miliband seems clear that there


are abuses which need to be addressed. But the contracts


themselves can be useful and can be flexible. Are you with the unions


who say that, actually they are evil. I can think of very few


circumstances where you can expect an employee to be on zero hours


contracts and live their lives and bring up their children and families


and in peace —— live in peace. What about places like the south—west,


where two is is an enormous industry? —— tourism? But you also


need employees who are trained and know what they are doing. There's


nothing worse than bringing in people at the last minute who do not


know what they are doing, and are not trained. What about the point


that job is than no job? There are zero hours contracts for some of the


best employees in this country. If you do not trained your employees,


if you do not treat them properly, you do not get a growth in your


industry. It is imperative you look after their employees. I have


employed many people and we supported the national minimum wage


on a regional basis. Let me just clarify that.


It is time for the regular round—up of the political week in 60 seconds.


Cuts to bus services in Cornwall. One company announces the closure of


some routes as the council makes saving of half £1 million. I do not


see their point. Many people see them wasting money in other areas,


then they cut valuable services like this.


The cost of policing alcohol—related crimes reach the top of the police


Commissioner 's agenda. Some people doubt his strategy will make a


difference. I have been to so many meetings, and


it is the people on the ground who will sort this out, not the people


who want to make names for themselves.


The government issued an official apology to those affected by the


water poisoning incident 25 years ago.


And bringing history to life. Saltash councillors hope this model


of the town 's famous previous resident will be a magnet.


We seem to be making train journeys between London and Birmingham even


faster than they are at the moment, but cutting bus services in


Cornwall. Absolutely dreadful. I do not support each is to. I think


while we have train services that are so slow, and while we are


cutting buses in Cornwall, and they fear more and more cuts coming down


the line, the priorities are all wrong. I do not want to hear


whingeing from Lib Dem and Tory MPs about the cuts at Cornwall Council.


I can see them running petitions, but this is down to the government.


In terms of rural services, this is difficult, isn't it? We are now


seeing a reluctance in the way to preserve rural services. We have to


cut expenditure, that is the topic of the next general election. We


have not trained in expenditure anything like Labour were going to.


They are going to have the deficit. —— cut the deficit in half. The


point you make is a good one. Transport in rural areas is not a


luxury, it is a necessity. And on that, we must leave it.


only if the ball comes to me. Bob Blackman and Sadiq Khan, thanks very


much. Leafing through the papers the Blackman and Sadiq Khan, thanks very


last few days has taken me back to my youth. The halcyon days of the


2000s, when the warring Blairite and Brownite tribes fought over who


should run the Labour Party. Gordon Brown's chief spin doctor Damian


McBride - McPoison, or worse, to his enemies - has published his memoirs,


timed for maximum impact in the week of Labour's Conference. They detail


how Mr McBride briefed against colleagues, brought down Cabinet


Ministers - Labour Cabinet Ministers, that is - and fought


tooth and nail to promote the man he called "the greatest man he ever


met" - Gordon Brown. Joining us now is Tony Blair's former Director of


Communications, Alastair Campbell. You are angry about what he has done


in this book. Why is that. It is partly the fact that he has done it


in a way that will be -- will be damaging to the Labour Party at this


time. But also because of the lies that he told at the time that he now


confirms. I was director of communications and trying to hold


the thing together, build the team. There was also Charlie Whelan and


others. And that job was made more difficult than it should have been.


I used to challenge Gordon Brown about it. And there came a stage


where I said if Whelan does not go, I will go. And when Damian McBride


was on the scene I was clear that I was not going to have anything to do


with him. Because of what he is now admitting to, I think they played


quite a significant part in pushing Labour out of power. Because the


public were being fed by them, this narrative, the whole time. That


Blair was useless, Charles Clarke was useless. And I think that we


where the government and had very good ministers trying to do big


things for the country. I said this morning it was like being a foot


tall team were on the pitch you had your own players kicking the star


players. That is why I am angry about it because I think they helped


usher in a conservative government. If we had all stuck together I think


we would still be there. The If we had all stuck together I think


did not win the last election, that is a reasonable point. But surely


they were only doing that to undermine Tony Blair and to promote


their man, Gordon Brown. It is inconceivable then that Gordon Brown


did not know about it. Well in spite of everything I always had a


reasonably good relationship with Gordon Brown. I used to challenge


him a lot about what Whelan was doing. He would always say, I will


sort it out. Another thing that annoys me is this sense put forward


by the right wing media that there was this sense of equivalence.


People like Steve who I have known for years, there is not a single


journalist with the very occasional exception where I lost my temper,


who would honestly be able to tell you that I ever breathed against


ministers. That was my golden rule. So we were presented as being...


People say you were the forerunner. I know it was not the case. One of


the reasons why I do despise what they did, the whole spin thing which


Peter and I are probably most associated with, once I wrote a


piece where I spoke about the journalists as the spin doctors. But


actually within the government, I journalists as the spin doctors. But


had a principle of maximum openness and trust. Anyone could come to the


morning meetings on condition that what was discussed their state as


part of the team. I had to say to Gordon Brown, your people are not


coming. Because I knew where it was coming from. Did you know that the


time but Charles Clarke and others were effectively being destroyed


from within the Labour government? I certainly knew that they thought


that. I did know journalists telling me that that was what was happening.


Ultimately, this is why I never buy this thing that you can blame


leaders, it is ultimately up to the litre. Possibly in a different age


Gordon Brown would have been an amazing Prime Minister. He was a


great chancellor. But he had a flaw, this need for truly horrible


people to be around him doing truly horrible things in politics and


giving him and the Labour Party and politics a bad name. That is why I'm


still angry about Damian McBride. What do you make of it? The current


administration is a contrast. We have rival factions occupying the


same offices but they still get on. The only time they have a row is


when something really big happens. But with that one party in Downing


Street there was fighting the whole time. Did Ed Balls know about this.


I would assume so. I spoke with him about it at the time. He told me at


the time that he had spoken about it with Gordon Brown. So I think there


was a concern from within that camp about some of these activities at


the time. With this myth of equivalence, in life you expect to


see that there is full on both sides. But I do not buy it in this


see that there is full on both case. If you look at the testimonies


see that there is full on both over the years, what you can surmise


about the character of Gordon Brown and of Tony Blair, it was ultimately


driven by Gordon Brown and the people around him. The Blairites did


things but they did then by way of retaliation rather than initiation.


The one-time when I did lose it was the whole psychological force thing.


That came at the end of a period when we were relentlessly being done


in by Charlie Whelan and his gang of journalists. I would go along to


briefings and Stephen and his colleagues would be there and I just


had to sit there and not hit back. Saying I cannot believe Gordon Brown


would have anything to do with this. You get to the stage where your own


credibility is on the line. Coming on the Labour conference. The


promotion of alcohol awareness. But before that the Labour Party, you


never had to deal with this in opposition because you were pretty


far ahead in the polls by midterm. This time that is not the case. It


is surprisingly narrow. What advice would you give to Ed Miliband? To


keep his head out side of this bubble but it's all about him. And


to use this week to really speak to the British people about himself,


about what he believes. And particularly the kind of policy


agenda he is shaping for the future. And start to heart -- start to hit


the Tories hard. They're not pop, they're not competent. They're


screwing up the health service. And yet they are neck and neck. I would


say that the whole Shadow Cabinet and Labour Party has got to


understand that you win elections by wanting to win elections every


minute of every day. There is too much complacency. A small lead now


you have to grow that. You do that with energy and conviction and


policy. Tony Blair had a huge pole bead in the run-up to 1997. We were


winning seat where we had not even campaigned and he was saying, why


celebrate because we have not won yet. You are promoting your alcohol


awareness campaign. Perhaps the party conference is not the best


place to do that! That is one reason why I am doing that. I'm hosting


probably the only alcohol free reception of the week! There is


nothing worse than a convert, I know that. But I travel a lot. I travel


around the world and Britain has a reputation as being the blues


capital of the world. That is something we should be ashamed of.


Why is that, is it cultural? I think it is historical. But I dig David


Cameron was right to go for minimum unit pricing and wrong to do a


reversal. 6% of alcoholics get treatment. I expect that drugs are a


problem but we spent £2 billion on 100,000 problem drug takers and £91


million on 1.6 million problem drinkers. Part of this campaign, you


have written this book about a young drinkers. Part of this campaign, you


alcoholic, a teenager. And it is in the first person. People could think


you are writing about yourself. Why did you choose a teenage girl? Well


partly, I dedicated this to the families of alcoholics. And I


dedicated it to one doctor in Southampton. He told me when he


started his career that his patience was split nine to one, men to women


and it is now 50 - 50. They're getting younger and younger. One


doctor looking after me said I will take you around this hospital and


the problems of alcohol are in every single ward. Not just accident and


emergency. I watched the foot all, just can't the number of


advertisements for gambling and advertising. How have we allowed


this to happen, ? We are just awash with it. What we did I think on


24-hour licensing was a mistake. Availability and price either too


means by which you can bring this down. And the country that has had


the biggest success on this is Russia, bizarrely. Thank you very


much for that. That's all for today. Thanks to all our guests. I'll be


back on BBC Two tomorrow at 11:30am with live coverage of Labour Party


Conference, including the speech from the man who wants to be the


next Chancellor, Ed Balls. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday




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