03/11/2013 Sunday Politics South West

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It began as

Plebgate, now it is Plodgate. The evidence of three police officers to

MPs is branded a great work of fiction. They tried to intimidate

the Grangemouth bosses, but in the end it was the union that

capitulated. I will ask Len McCluskey about Unite union's strong

arm tactics at Grangemouth and Falkirk. They preach women should be

sidelined and confined to the private sphere. They argued they

should be covered up. In the South West...Doubts about

whether the government's flagship scheme to build more homes is

actually doing the job. And the councillor calling for a seagull

cull. authority is investigating --

investing thousands of pounds in a GPS tracking system to keep tabs on

its staff. With me as always, the best and the

brightest political panel, Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt

who will be tweeting their humiliating climb-down is what they

got wrong last week in the programme. If this can happen it to

a Cabinet minister, what hope is there for anyone else? Thus the Home

Affairs Select Committee concluded what many already thought about the

treatment of Andrew Mitchell by three self-styled PC plebs. They met

him to clear the air over what did or did not happen when he was

prevented from ramming his bike through the Downing Street gates.

But the officers gave the media and inaccurate account of that meeting.

Two of them are even accused of misleading the Commons committee.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission will now reopen there

enquiry. This is not a story about Andrew Mitchell, it is about the

police. Keith Vaz is often in high dudgeon and this is the highest dad

and I have seen him in for some time. They could be held for

contempt of Parliament and technically they could be sent to

prison. It has blown up into an enormous story. I do not know what

is worse, the police trying to stitch up a Cabinet member and try

to mislead the media or the incompetence they have done it from

day one. That is quite good. I would sleep more soundly at night if I

knew the pleas were good at this. It is the incompetence that shocks me.

And this is just a sideshow. We are still waiting on the main report as

to what exactly happened outside Downing Street gates. But that not

will be good for the police either. The file has gone from the

Metropolitan police to the CPS, so we are limited about what we can

say. This is about the police Federation. They were set up under

statute in 1990 as a deal in which a police would not go on strike. This

is a political campaign to get a Cabinet minister out and the legacy

of this is the police Federation will have to be reformed. We will

keep an eye on it. They were Ed Miliband's union backers, they swung

the Labour leadership for him in 2010. Now the Unite union looks like

his biggest headache. The Sunday Times has seen extracts of the

report into the alleged vote rigging to select a Labour candidate in

Falkirk. There was evidence of coercion and Gregory as well as

deliberate attempt to frustrate the enquiry. We will be speaking to Len

McCluskey, the Unite union's General Secretary, in a moment. First out

the saga began an almost ended up with the loss of 800 jobs at a

petrochemical plant in Grangemouth. Unite were key players in the

Grangemouth dispute and the union headed by Len McCluskey has come

under fire for its intimidator Tariq tactics. In one instance

demonstrators complete with an inflatable rat picketed the home of

a INEOS director. The police were called. It was part of a strategy

the union called leverage. But turning up at people's houses seems

to represent an escalation. At the centre of the rout was Steve in

deals -- Stephen Denes. INEOS launched an investigation into him

as he was suspected of using company time to engineer the selection of

labour's candidate in Falkirk. That candidate was Karie Murphy, a friend

of Len McCluskey. Stevie Deans resigned last week and denies any

wrongdoing, but it capped a dramatic climb-down by Unite union. Len

McCluskey joins me now. Thanks to the Sunday Times we now know what is

in this labour report on the Falkirk vote rigging. Forgery, coercion

trickery, manipulation. You must be ashamed of how Unite union behaved

in Falkirk. The Sunday Times article is lazy journalism. There is nothing

new in the article. This was all dealt with by the Labour Party in

the summer. We rejected those allegations then and we said we had

done nothing wrong and both the Labour Party and the police in

Scotland indicated there had been no wrongdoing. The report itself says

you were trying to thwart the investigation. First you tried to

fix the selection of a candidate to get your woman in and then you

thwarted the investigation into the dirty deeds. The reality is the

Labour Party report was deeply flawed. The Labour Party then

instructed a solicitor, a lawyer, to do an in-depth investigation and

during that investigation they got to the bottom of what had happened

and they decided there was no wrongdoing whatsoever. At the time I

was so confident we had done nothing, I called for an independent

enquiry. They were forced to conclude there was no wrongdoing

because the people who originally complained changed their evidence

and we now know they did so because Unite union officials helped them to

rewrite their retraction and Stevie Deans approved it. That is not true.

We have had 1000 e-mails thrown into the public arena and what is that

all about? Who is leaking this? They showed the Unite union was rewriting

the retractions. This interview would go a lot better if you are

allowed me to finish the question that you asked. These e-mails were

put into the public arena by the PR company from INEOS. Why are they

doing this? The truth of the matter is that all of the investigations

that took place demonstrate there was nothing to answer. This idea

that the Unite union has rewritten and the evidence from the families

has been withdrawn, the families are a part of Stevie deems' family. They

clarified the position. Do you deny that union officials were involved

in the retractions? I deny it completely. This is important.

Independent solicitors to witness statements from the family and they

are the ones that were influencing the Labour Party with the position

is clarified and there is no case to answer. Do you deny Stevie deems saw

their retractions? It is his family. So you do not deny it? It is his

family. This is an ordinary, decent family who were faced with the full

weight of the pleas, a forensic solicitor. Of course they spoke to

Stevie Deans. This whole thing is a cesspit. Does it not need an

independent investigation? This is a trap being laid by Tory Central

office. They are making all the demands. The media, the Daily Mail,

the Sunday Times, the Conservative mouthpiece, they are laying tracks

for Ed Miliband and Ed Miliband should not fall into them. Since

when did it become part of an industrial dispute to send mobs to

the home of company families. This is a legitimate form of protest and

it is a silent protest. We believe if faceless directors are making

decisions that cripple communities, they cannot expect to simply drift

back to their own leafy suburbia and not be countable. This is silent

protest. It is lawful. It may be silent in Grangemouth, but it was

not silent elsewhere. You went with a giant rat, loud-hailers telling

everybody the neighbour was evil. No, we did not. You had

loud-hailers, you even encouraged passing children in Grangemouth to

join in. That is nonsense. Look at the rat. The reality is the

Grangemouth community was going to be decimated, Grangemouth was going

to become a ghost town. I reject totally this idea there were

loud-hailers and children involved. That is a lie perpetrated by the

Daily Mail. But you have used these tactics in other disputes. We have

used the tactics in other disputes, but we have not used loud-hailers at

people's homes. Because the labour laws are so restrictive we have to

look at every available means that we can protest. It is an outrage, an

absolute outrage, that this is happening to British workers in the

21st-century. It could not happen elsewhere. Is not intimidation the

wider hallmark of your union? You were quoted as saying to do whatever

it takes during your attempts to take over the Labour Falkirk

constituency. You were instructing to dig out the nasty stuff on your

opponents. That is not true. Let's see these e-mails? This is a con

trick. Nobody is looking to dig out... This is the words of your

legal services advisor. Unite has tried to instigate a revival of

trade union values within the Labour Party. That is what Ed Miliband

wanted us to do. As soon as we started to be in any way

ineffective, there were screams and howls of derision. When the company

started to investigate Stevie Deans, your friend, your campaign manager,

that he was using company time to moonlight on the job, you called

INEOS and said unless you stop the investigation we will bring

Grangemouth to a standstill. I never said that at all. You brought it to

a standstill. We never brought it to a standstill, the company did. Who

says that I said that we would bring it to a standstill? You have read it

in the newspapers. You should not believe everything. I did not make

that threat to the management. You carried the threat out. You

instigated an overtime ban and a work to rule. And that is what

Grangemouth to a standstill because the company decided to close the

petrochemical site down. Because Stevie Deans was suspended due

introduced industrial action? Our members in Grangemouth felt he was

being unfairly treated. In the end you're grandstanding almost cost

Scotland is most important industrial facility. The day was

saved by your total capitulation. Grandstanding, capitulation and

humiliation are grand phrases. There is nothing about capitulation. Len

McCluskey did not wake up one day and decide to have a dispute with

INEOS. The workers in that factory democratically elect their shop

stewards to represent them and to express to management their concerns

and their views. That is what happened with INEOS. Jack Straw has

condemned your union's handling of Grangemouth as a catastrophe. Have

you considered your position? Jack Straw and others in the Labour

Party, you have to ask them what their agenda is. I am not interested

in what he says. The truth of the matter is we responded to the

requirements and needs of our members. At a mass meeting last

Monday 100% supported their shop stewards and their union. We will

continue to stand shoulder to shoulder with our members when they

are faced with difficult situations. You have lost all the union rights.

You have had to agree to a no strike rule, you have lost pension rights.

We have not lost rights at all, we are still working with the company

to implement its survival plan. The Prime Minister is always attacking

unions and just lately he has taken to praising the automotive

industry. Jaguar Land Rover, Foxhall, BMW at Cowley, they are all

Unite union members were the shop stewards are engaged positively to

implement survival plans and to make a success for the company. That is

what we do, but by the same token we stand shoulder to shoulder with our

members who are in struggle and we will always do that and we will not

be cowed by media attacks on us Is your leadership not proving to be as

disastrous for the members as Arthur Scargill was for the NUM? My

membership is growing. I am accountable to my members, two are

executive, and the one thing they will know is that when they want me

standing shoulder to shoulder with them when they have a problem, I

will be there, despite the disgraceful attacks launched on us

by the media. "A country ready to welcome your

investment which values your friendship and will never exclude

anyone because of their race, religion, colour or creed." The

words of the Prime minister at the World Islamic Economic Forum which

was hosted for the first time in London this week. The PM's warm

words are sure to be welcomed by British Muslims who have endured a

spate of negative headlines. There's been the controversy over the

wearing of the veil, attitudes to women, and the radicalisation of

some young British Muslims. In a moment I'll be talking to the

Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq Murad.

First - here's Giles Dilnot. The call to Friday prayers at the east

London Mosque which has strong links with the Muslim Council of Britain,

one of the more vocal groups amongst British Muslims. Despite the fact it

frequently happens, it is neither helpful nor accurate to describe the

British Muslim community. There are so many different sects,

traditions, cultures and nationalities, it is more accurate

to describe the British Muslim communities, but there is one

question being put to them - are they doing enough internally to

address some challenging issues Are they willing to confront

radicalisation, attitudes to non-muslins, two women, and cases of

sexual exploitation in a meaningful way? A number of them say no, not

nearly enough. This former jihad de has spent ten years telling young

Muslim teenagers how they can reject extremist radicalisation, using

Outward Bound courses and community work, but he and others doing this

work thing -- think some elders are failing the youngsters. This has

been going on for decades, one figures -- thing is said in public

to please people but in private something very different is being

said and the messages are being confused. Some of the young people,

it pushes them further into a space where they are vulnerable for

radical recruiters. For many Muslim youngsters, life is about living 1's

faith within an increasingly secular society, a struggle not helped if

rigid interpretations of the Koran are being preached, say some

sectors. Some practices often don't make sense in 21st-century Britain,

and you are perhaps creating obstacles if you stick to those and

it is perhaps better to let go of those cultural problems, especially

when they need to clear injustices like forced marriage, reticence to

talk about grooming for example or discrimination against women. There

is a long list but I am very clear that in fact the bad Muslim is the

one who sticks to unflinching, narrow dogmatic fundamentalist

perception of religion. One issue often focused on is the wearing of

minicab. Polling suggests 80% of Britons would favour a ban in public

places. -- the niqab. Many people don't seem to recognise the legacy

of the niqab. Many people preach that women should be sidelined and

that they are sexual objects that should be covered up and the

preservation of morality falls on their shoulders. The Muslim Council

of Britain recently got praise for holding a conference on combating

sexual exploitation. In the wake of abuse cases that had involved

predominantly Pakistani men. For one man who has followed the story for

some years, the Muslim Council of Britain needs to do much more. We

need to get along together and if things like attitudes towards the

normal slim girl in stark contrast to the expression of honour and

chastity of the Muslim girl, your sister or daughter, are such that

actions that would be an fought off with a slim girl becomes permissible

with a white girl, then we are all in trouble. To some, attitudes to

women are not limited to sexual interactions at the very structures

of life in Muslim communities and indeed the Muslim Council of Britain

itself. I would like to ask the Muslim Council of Britain what they

are doing about the fact that very few mosques give voices to

are doing about the fact that very the fact that someone women are

experiencing female genital mutilation and forced marriages

what about the women who are getting married and their marriages are not

being registered and they are being left homeless and denied maintenance

rights, what about the fact there are sharia rights that have been

found to be discriminating against women, and the fact there are men in

this country who continue to hold misogynistic views about women, what

are you doing? The occasional press release will not solve this problem

of a deeply patriarchal community. That all of these issues can be

exploited to the point of Islam phobia is not doubted, but many

Muslims feel that unless the communities do tackle this openly, a

big cultural gap will exist between the two.

And the Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq

Murad, joins me now. One visible sign that sets muslins aside is the

veils that cover women's faces. Do you think it makes them impossible

to be part of mainstream society? The niqab is not an obligatory

requirement. But do you accept that those who wear it are cutting

themselves off from mainstream society? Some people do, and whilst

wearing niqab, some of them are working in various walks of life

successfully and it is seen as a faith requirement, but it is a red

herring in the sense that it applies to such a small number of Muslim

girls. For many Muslim preachers, isn't separation precisely the point

of the niqab? Certainly not, if you look at the Muslim women in the

public sphere, we have many very successful women. But not the ones

who are veiled. Not in the public arena as such, but the veil is a

practice which is practised by a very small number. Do you favour

it? I personally think it is not a requirement. But do you think women

should wear the veil? I think it is wrong to force women to wear the

veil. I asked if in your opinion women should wear the veil? It is

important not to force women to wear the veil. Should they of their free

choice where the veil? A lot of individuals do things out of their

free choice which I do not approve of, I don't think it is conducive it

helps their cause, but I do not have the right to take their choice away

from them. I am still unsure if you think it is a good thing or a bad

thing. Are not many Muslim women in this country being forced by Muslim

preachers and often their male relations who want to keep Muslim

women their place? As I said, it is wrong for anyone to force Muslim

women. But how would we ever know in a family if a woman was being

forced? Exactly, we don't know what is going on in people 's homes and

what pressure is being applied. I want you to look at this picture,

very popular on Islamic websites, and it shows the women who is

wearing the niqab having a straight route to heaven, and the other

Muslim woman dressed in western gear condemned to hell. Do you consider

that a proper message for Muslim women? Not at all, I don't. So any

Islamic websites in Britain... The Muslim Council of Britain is an

organisation of five affiliates from across the country and this is not

coming from any of them. As I said, those minority views propagated by

individuals should not be used to represent Muslim community. So that

would not have the support of the Muslim Council of Britain? It would

not have the support. What about the Muslim free school that requires

children as young as 11 to wear a black veil outside of school? Do you

agree with that? I am not sure exactly what the policy is... I have

just told you, do you agree that girls as young as 11 should wear a

black burka outside of school? I don't think it should be imposed on

anybody. But this is the desired dress School of the Muslim females.

I am asking for your view. I said it at the beginning that I do not think

it should be imposed. Would you send your daughter to a school that would

wear a black burka at the age of 11? Would you? No. It seems that some

muslins are determined to segregate young Muslim girls right from the

start to very early from society. It is not their segregation as such, I

would say that there are faith schools, if you look at an Islamic

girls school in Blackburn in a traditional setting, it has come the

top of the league table this year in the secondary school league tables.

But it doesn't make 11-year-olds wear black burkas. Many of those

girls go on to have a successful career. Not wearing black burkas. I

am sure there are examples of women who do have successful careers.

There is a very conservative movement from the continent on

Islam, and the issue supposedly based on Islamic law on their

website. Here is one of their recent judgements. The female is encouraged

to remain within the confines of her home as much as possible, she should

not come out of the home without need and necessity. What do you

think of that? We need to say the whole context of that quote. They

are saying they should stay at home as much as possible, do you agree

with that? I see many Muslim women who are walking about... But this is

what the mosque is recommending women should do. The practice is

quite the contrary. Let me show you another one. Another Fatwa. Do you

agree with that? These have been picked out from material dating back

to different cultural settings and in practice they are not applied.

This is advice being given as we speak. This is not being practised.

Do you agree with it? No, not at all. These are from the DL Monday

mosques, how come 72 of these mosques are affiliated to your

counsel? There may be publications from one of their scholars, but they

have been written in countries abroad and translated. This is

advice being given to young women now. They are affiliated to the

Muslim Council of Britain. Do you ever speak to them about that? The

Muslim Council is a very broad organisation. We are working on lots

of common issues to create a community which positively

integrates. Did you ever speak to them to say this is not appropriate

for British Muslims? There may be certain ad buys and publications

available, but people make their choices. So it is OK for your

organisation to issue things like that? Many of these things will fall

under scrutiny and we need to create that. Why do only 26% of British

mosques have facilities for women? If you go back to the requirement of

prayer, it was not obligatory for women to come to the masks to

prayer. When a poorer community began putting up mosques at the very

beginning in terraced houses... Did you have a policy to encourage them?

Is it on your website? It is in our practices that 20% of the council

have to be female. Coming out of this movement there is a conscious

stream of superiority between Muslims and non-Muslims. Look at

this quote. He is a well-known picture in this country.

That is what he wants to stop. I disagree with that. We believe we

live in this society and Muslims in any society of the world, and they

have historically lived as minorities in many countries... You

would this associate yourself from that? Why do you allow people like

that to be affiliated to you? The requirement is for any organisation

to be affiliated is that they are bound by the Charity commission s

rules and regulations. We only accept those who are under the law

of this country. This is a matter of taste. Let me move on to a bigger

issue. In 2009 you signed the Istanbul dash-mac the Istanbul

declaration was signed. Do you still support it? No, we never signed it

or supported it. One of your leading lights signed it. In the media

mainstream he defended his position. You have this associated yourself

from it? What is wrong with that? I am not sure about the declaration

because we disassociated ourselves. Before reading it? We did not sign

it. You have not read it? I do not know all the aspects of the

declaration, but at the time in the national newspapers and media there

was a discussion and a debate and it was highlighted that that was not

what was meant by the declaration. When did you decide so is the

yourself from the declaration? From day one. We never signed it. The

East London Mosque which you are personally closely associated with

is the venue for a number of extremist speakers, who espoused

extremist positions. In 2009 the mosque posted a video and

presentation by somebody described by the UN Security Council as an

Al-Qaeda leader supporter. Another speaker described Christians and

Jews as Phil. You have had a jihad is supporter of the Taliban there.

Why do you do nothing to stop extremists like that at this mask

with which you are associated with? We do not have anything to do with

any rhetoric that condones or supported violence. We issue

guidelines and the mosque itself is a registered charity which has its

own rules and regulations, but it is a very large mosques and lots of

organisations book and come and told their gatherings. We rent out the

facilities. You were prepared to speak alongside a man who saluted

suicide bombers, and said 9/11 was a Zionist conspiracy. Why would you

share a platform like that? I did not share a platform like that.

Different organisations come and have conferences here. Why did you

agree? I did not agree with that. I completely reject that. When you add

all this up the attitude to women, the alliance with the most

fundamentalist Islamic mosques, the toleration of intolerant views, a

willingness for you to be counted among them, why should anybody of

goodwill, either a Muslim or a non-Muslim, regard the MCB as a good

force? It is an organisation which embraces different organisations

which are affiliated in the Muslim community. You have taken snippets

of certain individual views which are not the views of our affiliates.

It would be unfair to represent our view based on those which you have

highlighted in this programme. The work that we do is quite clear and

is on our website. They are all associated with you, but we will

have to leave it there. You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming

up: I will be talking to joke Hello, I'm Martyn Oates, coming up

on the Sunday Politics in the South West... Seagulls. Meet the woman who

feeds them and the councillor who wants to kill them. And for the next

20 minutes, I'm joined by Ben Bradshaw, the Labour MP for Exeter

and the Conservative MEP Julie Girling. Julie's fellow

Conservative, South East Cornwall MP Sheryll Murray, kicked off Prime

Minister's Questions this week, suggesting Ed Miliband should

apologise for Labour's prediction that the Government's economic

policy would result in job losses. Under this government, there are 1

million new jobs. There is a quarry in South East Cornwall who are

investing and training young people. We were told that the government

programme would clearly leads to the disappearance of a million jobs. Is

it not time for the party opposite to admit that they were wrong and

apologise? Of course, he did not. This is a very self congratulate

suggestion. She has a serious point. You have predicted this doom and

gloom since 2010 and the opposite has happened. There have been fewer

job losses and workers have absorbed their stagnant wages. That has been

the trade`off. It has been a new phenomenon and is a reflection of

the flexible Labour market. It is a sensible approach and I think we

would rather see more jobs. The real story and the underlying reason why

we are putting the blame on the cost of living crisis is that people are

struggling. The cost of living is going up wages not. Are you

admitting that they were right? No, I do not think we understood how the

2008 crisis would affect our economy. It affected it in ways we

could not predict. We had fewer job losses but falling living standards.

This was formed by the global financial disaster of 2008. It is a

phenomenon that has gone across the developed world. Julie, if you were

to answer who calls this better, it it would be them and not you. No,

there is no doubt that George Osborne's extreme austerity methods

have been damaging to the economy. We had no growth for three years.

When Labour left office, the economy was growing and then it stopped

growing for three years. It has had a damaging long`term effect. Our

economy is one of only two in the world, apart from Italy, that is

still below the level in 2008. Julie, is this bad news? I do not

see it this way. It is the case that the UK economy hosts some very

difficult decisions. It was struggling in 2010, nobody is

denying that, but what we did see, and to get back to Sheryll's point,

we saw more jobs and people in work, here in our region. What we have not

seen is that dive in jobs that was predicted. It is not the same in

every developed country. I work in Europe and across Europe we see

different levels in different countries. There are different

trajectories and time frames. We are really the envy of most of Europe

with one or two notable exceptions, such as Germany. The Labour market

has held up in the recession. The New Homes Bonus is one of the

government's flagship policies to get more badly`needed houses built.

The financial incentive scheme has been running now for two years. This

week, though, the Commons Public Accounts Committee said there was no

evidence it's actually doing any good. Building new houses is an

emotive issue but with the number being built way behind what it is

said to be needed, the government is dangling a carrot for the New Homes

Bonus. Councils have been rewarded for every empty home that has been

brought back into use. Cornwall has done quite well. Questions are being

asked about the fairness of the scheme and whether it is working.

The money can be spent however councils would like and it is

difficult to measure whether it is leading to more houses being built.

A group of MPs said the government has failed to provide credible data

to prove it is working. This is a very expensive programme. 7.5 p and

pounds `` seven and a half billion pounds be spent to incentivise local

authorities to build new homes. We do not know whether it is working

and what was disturbing was that the departments responsible had not set

up a proper evaluation to make sure the programme is achieving

objectives. This is one of dozens of empty homes that will be lived in

again. The council gets cash for every home added to the tax

register, and only Birmingham has more. We were quick off the mark

when the New Homes Bonus scheme was announced. We are working to provide

lots of homes in the county, and that is why we were successful and

got more money to do the job. We have properly got more of a crisis

in Cornwall than other areas. It may be fair, it may not. It might be

seen as a success story here but how's `` house`building is below

targets. The government is planning to take some of the money away from

councillors and give it to the local enterprise partnership instead. I am

not hostile to the principle of a New Homes Bonus. However, if it is

going to be diverted off and used for economic development, that is

different to what the suggestion was in the beginning, which was an

incentive to councils as planning and housing authorities to get on

with house`building in their areas. In Cornwall, where the council

stands to lose a third of their New Homes Bonus, there are reassurances.

I am going to make a commitment that given the importance of having

somewhere to live, if the enterprise grows and we have to bring more

people in with engineering skills, they will need somewhere to live.

Houses are just as important to us as they are to the council. The

partnership will agree how to spend the money. The government is

planning to agree on an evaluation of the scheme by next year. The

Public Accounts Committee says more urgent action is needed with so much

at stake. Everybody agrees with the need for more houses, it is very

concerning, though, if the scheme is not delivering. I have a great deal

of time for Margaret Hodge. She has lifted the bar for how the Commons

scrutinises the government. I think we are jumping the gun a little,

though. They have started a review already so to criticise them is a

little bit premature. I understand the issues they are bringing up, and

I would hope that we will see some serious analysis at Easter.

Inevitably, a scheme like this that got off the blocks in 2011, houses

are not built overnight, is good. The proof of the pudding will be

over the next year or two. We will see whether it affects real change.

I think to be fair to the government, Margaret Hodge's

criticism was not that the scheme was not working but that it has not

been evaluated yet. It has been going for three years now. My

biggest concern is going to be the impact of the government is taking

away a lot of this money and giving it to the local enterprise

partnerships. In Exeter, that will lose us ?3 million and could

jeopardise the city centre redevelopment. I think that is mad

to do when this money is supposed to be incentivising. You know all about

local government and you look at Cornwall, it has done quite well out

of this. Counties like Devon and Dorset have huge amounts of money

being taken away. They are not getting back much at the moment.

They can't because they do not authorise house`building. Indeed,

and there is a tension there between the two levels. In the decade since

I became a counsellor, most councils are virtual one level counties and

work together very closely. The enterprise is part of that

partnership and they are all working for the benefit of their community.

They should be moving in the same direction. I would think that in

most areas you will get cooperation and people will not lose out. If the

city centre project in Exeter is important to the whole community

then the enterprise partnership will be on board. I have every confidence

with enterprises across the south`west. Some are better than

others and that is the problem. You do get rioted. You might say that if

you get localism, you get local authorities. Yes. The local

enterprise in our area has not got a good reputation. They are all

opposed to this and I hope Eric pickles will think again. If you

look at a rural authority like Devon, your Conservative

colleague... Is very unhappy about a! He is very unhappy about a! He's

extremely unhappy about it! I think the point there is that it is OK and

maybe some more thinking needs to go in. As someone who works in a local

authority, I know how difficult that can be. You do have to work together

and I hope the government are listening to that, and I am sure

they are. You can see why local authorities do not like

house`building. I think house`building is integral to the

local economy. It is important because it stimulates growth and

stimulator the economy. I do not think that people should not be

concerned with housing. We cover parts of Somerset so in theory, many

that is raised in Exeter could be spent on projects in Somerset that

has nothing to do with housing. The original idea was to incense as I is

`` encourage house`building. If you cut that money in half, it will go

backwards again. We need more affordable housing. To many the cry

of the seagull and the sight of them floating on the breeze are an

evocative part of seaside life. They're much less attractive, of

course, when they're dive`bombing toddlers. This week one South West

council held a Seagull Summit to debate the problem of nuisance

gulls, and with even the RSPB reporting a huge increase in

complaints, some say we should start killing them. John Henderson

reports. For some, the beach is no longer

safe. At any moment, there could be a strike from Saint Ives to

Sidmouth. There is fear at the seaside. The predator is not from

below but attacks from above. Seagulls, for some, the mess. `` a

menace. Whether it is wrong, I do not know. She is there and I feed

her. Perhaps it says somebody's ice cream! For many, they are a pest and

ruin a day out. They spoil people's sleep with squawking. This summer,

they seem to be public enemy number one. Postman were attacked. One cafe

issued customers with water pistols to fend off hungry gulls. Back in

Sidmouth, some safe things have got so bad that it is time for real

guns. Time for a seagull cull. It is getting out of hand and they are no

longer in their natural environment, but they are adapting to our

environment too well. A cull words enable us to get back within the

right numbers. It would stop them growing as fast as they have. A cull

is necessary. Shooting gulls is illegal and police were called in

when birds were found in this area. They are wild birds and they are

protected by law. There are certain exceptions such as farmers killing

birds who damage crops, and birds whose red diseases or to caused a

danger for aircraft. Permits to kill are covered under general licences

which have strict terms. The RSPB say there are no exceptions which

allow birds to be killed for being noisy being a nuisance. The society

did not attend this week's seagull summit. We need to learn how to live

with the birds. We should not see them as a problem. Let's deal with

the big problem. The RSPB says there has been a threefold increase in

complaints about seagulls this year compared to last. Sidmouth is not

alone when it comes to struggling with gulls. Some advocate a cull and

others take a different approach, arguing that they will continue

feeding birds and there is no law to stop them. You have dealt with this

kind of thing at DEFRA. There is always a case to keep these things

under review and there is a growing problem with seagulls. I live by the

sea and there are more gulls. There are problems with VCs on the

pavement as well. If there was a cull, the population would come in

from elsewhere. I think there are better ways to deal with them. Stop

people feeding them. You should not feed these seagulls or wild birds.

Swans as well. It is fine having a bird table in your garden but do not

encourage these birds to come in. There are ways of deterring them. A

cull is not the answer. Feeding them does not help but I did not give my

sandwich to a seagull in Sidmouth! They are extremely bold. Yes, they

are. One of the reasons they have come into cities is because of the

availability of food. People do not deal with their rubbish properly and

there is more food being thrown around. You should remove the other

sources of food and the reasons they come into the city in the first

place. Reduce their nesting opportunities as well. They are more

practical solutions to the problem but there is no doubt that there is

a problem and I hope the RSPB are keeping an eye on this because I am

getting more letters about this. Any arguments for a cull? I hate

seagulls. They terrify me! I would like to see a lot less of them. The

idea of a cull is an appalling prospect at the seaside. I do not

think that will happen. We have got to find another way. In Gloucester,

many years ago, there was a huge problem with seagulls. This is the

problem. We have accepted them as part of the seaside. They had

problems in Birmingham. We had a programme of poisoning their eggs

and I cannot remember how it exactly works but you can stop them from

reading that way. That worked for a while and the population went down

`` breeding. The right thing to do is ask people not to feed them. Do

you think a law is needed? I think you need a bylaw. A bylaw on feeding

might be appropriate in some places. You have to deal with it on a

case`by`case basis. They have stopped people feeding the pigeons

in Trafalgar Square. That is a more sensible approach than a cull. Yes,

a cull would be difficult but something has to be done. Let's

behave more sensibly and be careful with our litter but it will not stop

them swooping down on a child and grabbing their ice cream. It

happened to me and it was distressing! Now our regular

round`up of the political week in sixty seconds.

Calls to put nurses behind the chemist's counter to relieve

accident and emergency departments. I am keen to make more use of

pharmacies without putting pressure on services. Campaigning for egg

crackdown on adult entertainment in Newquay. Some pubs and clubs in my

constituency have been exploiting the loophole in the act that you

have referred to. This puts patrons at risk. As well as performers.

Concerns that Cornwall have struggled to provide free school

meals for the under eights. The government denies plans to lower the

minimum sugar content in jam. We are not stopping anyone putting 60% in.

It is a minimum level and means producers will have greater

flexibility. As well as being a DEFRA Minister,

you are a Health Minister. Can we solve the accident and emergency

crisis by persuading people to go to the pharmacy instead? No. I am all

for supporting the use of pharmacies but you would have to have full`time

nurses in that and have enough work for them to do. Most of the problems

in hospitals are at the weekends when pharmacies are not open. It

seems a nonsense to move resources from walk`in clinics. There are

difficulties for people getting to see their GP at times as well. The

Health Secretary says accident and emergency departments have never

been stronger. Is there a problem? I think an individual's experience

varies. Is there an overload on ana? `` accident and emergency? This

issue comes up again and again. I have heard different stories across

the region. In some places, A is under pressure and in other areas it

is less so. We have two try and reduce... People do go to A with

minor issues that we have to look at how GPs operate and perhaps using

pharmacies as a way of dealing with minor injuries is a good thing, I do

not know. I have not looked into it. I think it is a good idea to

bring up and think about. That's the Sunday Politics in the South West.

Thanks to my guests Ben and Julie. We did not discuss the jam, I am

sorry. It is the British government that wants to

Thank you for coming, great to see you. Andrew, back to you. Labour 's

relationship with Unite and other issues all to be discussed in the

Week Ahead and we're joined now by the shadow business secretary Chuka

Umunna. First I would like to get your reaction to the interview I did

earlier with the General Secretary of the union Unite - Len McCluskey.

Let's look at what he said. This is a trap being laid by Tory Central

office. They are making all of the demands and the Daily Mail, the

Sunday Times, are you telling me they are not the conservative

mouthpiece in the media? They are laying traps for Ed Miliband and he

should not fall into them. Though it is all a Tory plot. Len McCluskey

denies a lot of the allegations put, but let me be clear in an industrial

dispute, the use of aggressive or intimidatory tactics by either side

is totally unacceptable. Do you think it is wrong for Unite to send

its members to the homes of managers? I don't know what happened

in that particular case, but I think you should keep people 's families

out of these things and if you are doing something that can upset

particularly children, that is a bad thing. I know he denied a number of

things you put to him. We now know some of the content of Labour 's own

report into what happened at Falkirk and they found all sorts of things -

forgery, coercion, trickery and even that their own investigation was

being thwarted by Unite. What should Labour do next? I have not read the

report. We are told that the latest allegations that have been made is

something that the police are looking into so that is not

something I think would be appropriate for me to comment on. We

learned Labour Party members in the Falkirk constituency have complained

to the leader of the Scottish party about a lack of action by the Labour

Party on what happened in Falkirk. I am not part of the Scottish party

and that is news to me. But the police have indicated they are

looking at the new information that has come to light. It is a bit like

the 1980s and there was an electrifying moment when Neil

Kinnock took on the militant tendency in Bournemouth in 1985 Ed

Miliband has sort of tried to take on the Unite union, but it has not

worked. Does then not need to be an electrifying moment for Ed Miliband?

Your own paper has praised him for seeking to address the issues we

have in politics and the disconnection from people. In many

respects the situation in Falkirk categorises the process of further

ongoing change where we are trying to establish a better relationship

with individual trade union members. In parts of my constituency, some of

the most deprived parts, we had people queueing round the block to

vote. I do not think the issue is that people are not political, but

they have never felt so far from party politics as they do now and

that is why Ed Miliband announced this big chains about how we do

things in the Labour Party, so we change structures in the Labour

Party that were set up in the 2 th century. The reform of the way in

which we connect and our relationship with the union puts us

in a good position because we have this relationship between the 3

million working people who ensure our public services function. At

Grangemouth INEOS stood up to unite. At Grangemouth and Falkirk

Labour rolled over to the Unite union. I do not agree with that I'd

just explained the reason. I do not think it is fair to ask people to

give evidence in an enquiry on the basis of the report will be

confidential and then to publish it after. But if somebody is trying to

take over a Labour constituency to send an MP of their choice to our

Parliament, that should not be secret, that should be public. Ed

Miliband acted very decisively. That constituency party is still in

special measures as I understand it. This idea that somehow the Unite

union runs the Labour Party, they do not. The special measures mean

according to Eric Joyce, that an ally of Stevie Deans is chairing the

meeting. I am interested in the Tory suggestion that they would offer

free Tory party membership to union members. I then moving onto your

turf? We do not know exactly all the facts and the truth of the

allegations that have been made On your point I think it is healthy the

Conservatives are looking to recruit trade union members. A lot of their

rhetoric is very negative in respect of trade unions. If you look at

Unison a third of the members vote Conservative. In Unite union some of

their members vote Tory. I think trade unions have a lot to bring to

our country. It is one of the things many up and down the country will

find very frustrating, a lot of the good work that unions do if it gets

tarnished with all the negative stuff you see... Unite are working

in partnership with GM and the senior management in Ellesmere Port

and the government ensured that we kept that plant open. That gets

overlooked by all of this. Do you not think the bolshie behaviour from

unions are motivated not by strength, but by weakness. Unite

know they cannot paralyse the country in the way their forebears

used to be able to do. Their penetration rates in the private

sector is 11%. The union movement is weaker than it was before I was

born. Some of that truck killers and bad behaviour either death spasms of

their movement rather than something that is motivated by the fact they

can't paralyse the country. You have two increase the membership. But

there is an issue about the public perception of trade unions. It is

right they should be a voice of protest and anger and stand up for

their members when it is necessary. But people join unions for their

aspiration. The unions do a lot so that people can move up in their

workplace. That profile needs to come across as strongly as the

protest part. I want to move on to business. The head of the CBI has

said that Labour's pro-enterprise credentials have suffered a setback.

He said that in relation to Ed Miliband's speech. I was on the

radio earlier. If you look at the things in the speech, some of that

was going to be uncomfortable for some of the countries and they tend

to be companies represented by the CBI, like energy companies, like

land developers, a lot of the big business lose out from is not doing

the corporate tax cut. The energy freeze is going to help over 2.

million businesses that have been hit by high energy bills. The

business community has said we had to bring the public sector finances

back into balance. That is why we decided to switch the money being

used to reduce corporation tax and use that to help a much greater

variety of businesses by doing a business rate cut. It is all pro

enterprise. They also seem to be critical of your new idea of a

living wage. They are not critical. It would not be compulsory, but

there would be a tax credit if they paid it. It is good for business

because if people are earning more than they are more productive. It is

good for the employee and good for us as well because it means we are

not having to subsidise people to be paid to the extent we have with tax

credits and benefits. Everybody benefits from this. We all know

after 2009 we need to have bold change. Does Labour paid a living

wage? We have got over 20 of our councils signed up to doing so and

we have made commitments in respect to Whitehall. Does the Labour Party

pay it? I believe so. Would it not be worth checking? Do you get a

living wage? Yes, of course I do. I understand we paid a living wage.

What does it feel like for Tristram Hunt who has taken over your mantle

as Labour's next leader? Is that a relieved or are you angry? He is one

of my best friends and at the end of the day if we got obsessed with this

soap opera stuff we would never get anything done and we are working

together to make sure we have got the right skills in our workforce.

That is all for today. The daily politics is on all week. I will be

here again next weekend at 12:2 pm after the Remembrance Day service at

the Cenotaph. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.

Planet Earth - it's unique. It has life.

To understand why, we're going to build a planet...up there.

There were the objects that were making the Earth.

We're now weightless. That's how our planet started.

Your arms are a little bit long Is that as small as they go?

This is like every shopping trip I've ever been on.