10/11/2013 Sunday Politics South West

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband's on

the war path over pay day loans, your energy bill and what he calls

the bedroom tax. His spinners say he's resurgent though the polls

don't show it. We'll be talking to his right hand woman, Labour's

Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman. From resurgent to insurgent. Nigel Farage

won an award this week for being a political insurgent. We'll be

talking to the UKIP leader. In the South West: The concern for

jobs at Devonport Dockyard and as the council funding row continues,

we ask if the Tories are losing the countryside.

It is free choice. In London, the row over the super sewer rumbles on.

And with me, fresh from their success at yesterday's Star Wars

auditions, Darth Vader. Obi Wan Kenobi and R2D2. Congratulations on

your new jobs. We'll miss you. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.

First, the talks with Iran in Geneva. They ended last night

without agreement despite hopes of a breakthrough. America and its allies

didn't think Iran was prepared to go far enough to freeze its nuclear

programme. But some progress has been made and there's to be another

meeting in ten days' time, though at a lower level. The Foreign

Secretary, William Hague, had this to say a little earlier. On the

question of, or will it happen in the next few weeks? There is a good

chance of that. We will be trying again on 20th, 21st of November and

negotiators will be trying again. We will keep an enormous amount of

energy and persistence behind solving this. Will that be a deal

which will please everyone? No, it will not. Compromises will need to

be made. I had discussions with Israeli ministers yesterday and put

the case for the kind of deal we are looking

the case for the kind of deal we are interests of the whole world,

including interests of the whole world,

the world, to reach a diplomatic agreement we can be confident in in

this issue. This otherwise will threaten the world with nuclear

proliferation and conflict in the future. The interesting thing about

this is that it seems future. The interesting thing about

prepared to go far enough over the Iraq heavy water plutonium reactor

it is building. The people who took the toughest line - the French.

France has always had a pretty tough line on Iran. They see it as a

disruptive influence in Lebanon I am reasonably optimistic a deal will

be done later this month when the talks reconvene. Western economic

sanctions have had such an impact on Iran domestic league. They have

pushed inflation up to 40%. Dashes-macro domestically. The new

president had a campaign pledge saying, I will deal with sanctions.

I actually think, by the end of this year, we will see progress in these

talks. Should we be optimistic? The next round of talks will be at

official level. The place to watch will be Israel. The language which

has been coming out of there is still incredibly angry, incredibly

defensive. They do not want a deal at all. Presumably John Kerry has to

go away and tried to get Israel to be quiet about it, even if they

cannot be happy about it. They cannot agree to a deal which allows

the Iraq reactor with plutonium heavy water. You do not need that

with a peaceful nuclear power programme will stop that is why the

Israelis are so nervous. If there is an international deal, Israel could

still bomb that but it would be impossible. The French tactics are

interesting. It says the French blocked it in part because they are

trying to carry favour with Israel but also the Gulf Arab states, who

are really nervous about and Iranians nuclear capability. Who is

that? Saudi Arabia. Newsnight had a story saying that Pakistan is

prepared to provide them with nuclear weapons. You are right about

Saudi Arabia. They are much more against this deal than Israel. Who

is Herman van Rompuy's favourite MEP? It is probably not Nigel

Farage. He plummeted to the bottom of the EU president's Christmas card

list after comparing him to a bank clerk with the charisma of a damp

rag. And he's been at it again this week. Have a look. Today is November

the 5th, a big celebration festival day in England. That was an attempt

to blow up the Houses of Parliament with dynamite and destroy the

Constitution. You have taken the Dahl, technocratic approach to all

of these things. What you and your colleagues save time and again you

talk about initiatives and what you are going to do about unemployment.

The reality is nothing in this union is getting better. The accounts have

not been signed off for 18 years. I am now told it is 19 and you are

doing your best to tone down any criticism. Whatever growth figures

you may have, they are anaemic. Youth unemployment in the

Mediterranean is over 50% in several states. You will notice there is a

rise in opposition dashed real opposition. Much of it ugly

opposition, not stuff that I would want to link hands with. And Nigel

Farage joins me now. Let me put to you what the editor of the Sun had

to say. He says, UKIP will peak at the European election and then it

will begin to get marginalised as we get closer to 2015 because there is

now that clear blue water between Labour and the Tories. What do you

say to that? There may be layered blue water on energy pricing but on

Eastern Europe, there is no difference at all. When Ed Miliband

offers the referendum to match Cameron, even that argument on

Europe will be gone. The one thing that will keep UKIP strong, heading

towards 2015, is if people think in some constituencies we can win. I

cannot sit here right now and say that will be the case. If we get

over the hurdle of the European elections clearly, I think there

will be grounds to say that UKIP can win seats in Westminster. You are

going to run? Without a shadow of a doubt. I do not know which

constituency. The welcome I got in Edinburgh was not that friendly

Edinburgh is not everything in Scotland. I think we have a

realistic chance of winning those elections. If we do that, we will

have the momentum behind us. You might be the biggest party after the

May elections. The National front is likely to do very well in France as

well. They have won the crucial by-election in the South of France.

Have you talked about joining full season in Parliament? The leader has

tried to take the movement into a different direction than her father.

The man she beat, to become leader, actually attended the BNP

conference. The problem she has with her party and we have with her party

is that anti-Semitism is too deep and we will not be doing a deal with

the French national government. You can guarantee you will not be

joining such groups. I can guarantee that. Let's move on to Europe. Let's

accept that the pro-Europeans exaggerate the loss of jobs that

would follow the departure of Britain from the UK. Is there no

risk of jobs whatsoever? No risk whatsoever. There is no risk at all.

There have been some weak and lazy arguments put around about this We

will go on doing business - go on doing trade with Europe. We will

have increased opportunities to do trade deals with the rest of the

world and they will create jobs The head of Nissan, the head of Hitachi

and CBI many other voices in British business, when they all expressed

concern about the potential loss of jobs and incoming investment, we

should just ignore them. With Nissan, the BBC News is making this

a huge story. The boss did not say what was reported. He said there was

a potential danger to his future investment. They have already made

the investments. They have built the plant in Sunderland, which they say

is operating well. We should be careful of what bosses of big

businesses say. This man said they may have two leaves Sunderland if we

did not join the euro. I do not take that seriously. As for the CBI, they

wanted us to join the euro and now they do not. Even within the CBI,

there is a significant minority saying, we do not agree with what

the CBI director-general is saying. The former boss of the organisation

is saying we need a referendum and we need a referendum soon. It

depends on the renegotiation. There is not the uniformity. What we are

beginning to see in the world, is, manufacturing and small businesses

are a lot more voices saying, the costs of membership outweigh any

potential benefit. If you look at the polls, if Mr Cameron does

repatriate some powers and he joins with Labour, the Lib Dems, the

Nationalists in Scotland and Wales, most of business, all of the unions

to say we should stay in, you are going to lose, aren't you? In 1 75,

the circumstances were exactly the same. Mr Wilson promised a

renegotiation and he got very little. The establishment gathered

around him and they voted for us to stay in. I do not think that will

happen now. The scales have fallen. We do not want to be governed by

Herman Van Rompuy and these people. These people are Eurosceptic but

they do not seem to feel strongly enough about it that they are going

to defy all the major parties they vote for, companies that employ

them, unions they are members of. I am absolutely confident there will

be a lot voices in business saying, we need to take this opportunity to

break free, give ourselves a chance of a low regulation lowball trader.

-- global trade. In 1970 53 small publications said to vote yes. I am

not contemplating losing. The most important thing is to get the

referendum. If UKIP is not strong, there will not be a referendum.

Earlier in the year, your party issued a leaflet about the remaining

sample parents being able to come to this country. The EU will allow 29

million Bulgarians and remaining is to come to the UK. That is

technically correct but we both know that is not the case. It is an open

door to these people. Why take the risk? By make out there are 29

million people? I stand by that verdict. It is an open door. 29

million are not going to come. They can if they want. Also 29 million

people from France can come. After these countries have joined, we will

do another leaflet saying that Mr Cameron wants to open the door to 70

million people from Turkey. That is scaremongering. I would not say

that. We have a million young British workers between 16 and 4

without work. A lot of them want work and we do not need another

massive oversupply in the unskilled labour market. Why did you have such

a bad time on question Time this week? The folk that did not buy your

anti-immigration stick. Do you think that group of people in the room was

representative of the voters of Boston? What would make you think it

was unrepresentative? When the county council elections took place

this year in Boston, of the seven seats, UKIP won five and almost won

the other two. I don't think that audience reflected that, but that

doesn't matter. How an audience is put together, how a panel is put

together, on one programme, it doesn't mean much at all. It shows

that your anti-immigrant measure doesn't fly as easily as you hoped

it would? The opinion polls which will be launched on Monday that we

are conducting and nearing completion, they show two things.

Firstly, an astonishing number of people who think it's irresponsible

and wrong to open the doer to Romania and Bulgaria, secondly and

crucially, a number of people whose vote in the European elections and

subsequent general elections may be determined by the immigration

issues. This does matter. It would be the perfect run group the

European elections in May for you if a lot of Bulgarians and remainians

flooded in. You would like that to happen? I think it will happen.

Whether I like it or not, it will happen. You think it will be good

for you, it will stir things up If you say to people in poor countries,

you can come here, get a job, have a safety net of a benefits system

claim child allowance for your kids in Bucharest, people will come You

are ready with the arguments already? You will be disappointed if

only ten turn up? Whether lots come or not we should. Taking the risk

and yes, we are going to make it a major issue in the European

election. Let's leave it there. Thank you very much, Nigel Farage.

The summer of 2013 was not good for Ed Miliband, with questions over his

leadership, low ratings and complaints about no policies. He

bounced back with a vengeance at the Labour Conference in September,

delivering a speech which this week won the spectator political speech

of the year aword. In that speech he focussed on the cost-of-living and

promised a temporary freeze on energy prices. Even said this. The

next election isn't just going to be about policy. It's going to be about

how we lead and the character we show. I've got a message for the

Tories today. If they want to have a debate, about leadership and

character, be my guest And if you want to know the difference between

me and David Cameron, here is an easy way to remember it. When it was

Murdoch v the McCanns, he took the side of Murdoch. When it was the

tobacco lobby versus the cancer charities, he took the side of the

tobacco lobby. When the millionaires wanted a tax cut as people pay the

bedroom tax, he took the side of the millionaires. A come to think of it,

here is an easier way to remember it. David Cameron was a Prime

Minister who introduced the bedroom tax. I'll be the Prime Minister who

repeals the bedroom tax There we go, that will go down with the party

faithful on Tuesday. There will be a debate on the bedroom tax. Labour's

Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman, joints me now. Let's begin with the

bedroom tax or bedroom subsidy. Nearly 11% of people who've come off

Housing Benefits all together after their spare room subsidy was

stopped, isn't that proof that reform was necessary? No. I think

that the whole way that the bet room tax has been attempted to be

justified is completely wrong. What it's said is that it will actually

help take people off the waiting lists by putting them into homes

that have been vacated by people who've downsized by being

incentivised by the bedroom tax so basically if you are a council

tenant or Housing Association tenant in a property with spare bedrooms,

then because the penalty is imposed, you will move to a smaller property.

That is the justification for it. But actually, something like 96 of

the people who're going to be hit by the bedroom tax, there isn't a

smaller property for them to move into. I understand that. Therefore

they are, like the people in my constituency, if they have got one

spare bedroom, they are hit by 700 a year extra to pay and that is

completely unfair As a consequence of people losing the subsidy for

their spare room, they have decided to go out and get work and not

depend on Housing Benefit at all? 11% of them. What's wrong with that?

Well, they are going to review the way 2 the bedroom tax is working.

What is wrong with that? But that's not working. That's the result of

Freedom of Information, 141 councils provided the figures, 25,000 who've

come off benefits, of the 233,0 0 affected, it's about 11%. These

people were clearly able to get a job was having the Housing Benefit

in the first place? But of course the people who're on the benefits

who're not in work are always looking for work and many of them

will find work which is a good thing, but for those who don't find

work, or who find work where it s low-paid and need help with their

rent, it's wrong to penalise them on the basis of the fact that their

family might have grown up and moved away and so you have either got to

move out of your home, away from your family and your neighbourhood,

or you've got to stay where you are and, despite the fact that you are

low-paid or unemployed, you have got to find an extra ?700 a year because

of your rent. So it's very unfair The Government that was

commissioning independent research on the impact of this work change

and welfare policy, particularly on the impact on the most vulnerable,

some of which you have been talking about there, shouldn't they have

waited until you have got the independent research, that

independent investigation before determining your policy? No. In

fact, the Government should have waited until they'd have done their

independent research before they bought into effect something and

imposed it on people in a way which is really unfair. They could have

known. Why didn't you wait? What they could have done is, they could

have asked councils, are people going to be able to Manifest into

smaller homes if we impose the bedroom tax and the answer from

councils and Housing Associations would have been no, they can't move

into smaller homes because which haven't got them there. They should

have done the evaluation before they introduced the policy. We are

absolutely clear and you can see the evidence, people are falling into

rent arrears. Many people, it's a terrifying thing to find that you

can't pay your rent, and some of the people go to payday loan companies

to get loans to pay their rent. It is very, very unfair. The

justification for it, which is people will move, is completely

bogus. There aren't places for them to go. On the wider issue of welfare

reform, a call for the TUC showed that voters support the Government's

welfare reforms, including a majority of Labour voters. Why are

you so out of touch on welfare issues, even with your own

supporters? Nobody wants to see people who could be in a job

actually living at the taxpayers' expense. That's why we have said

that we'll introduce a compulsory jobs guarantee, so that if you are a

young person who's been unemployed for a year, you will have to take a

job absolutely have to take a job, and if you have been unemployed as

somebody over 25, there'll be a compulsory thing after two years of

unemployment. So if you have been on welfare two years? So the main issue

about the welfare bill actually is people who're in retirement who need

support. We have said for the richest pensioners, they shouldn't

have to pay their winter fuel allowance. My point wasn't abouts

the sub stance, it's about how you don't reflect public opinion --

substance. The Parliamentary aid said the political backlog of

benefits and social security is "not yet one that we have won. Labour

must accept that they are not convincing on these matters,". Well,

redo have to convince people and explain the policies we have got and

the view we take. So, for example, for pensioners, who're well off we

are saying they don't need the Winter Fuel Payment that. 's me

saying to you and us saying to people in this country, we do think

that there should be that tightening. For young people, who've

been unemployed, they should be offered jobs but they've got to take

them. So yes, we have to make our case. OK. The energy freeze which we

showed there, on the speech, as popular. The living wage proseles

have been going down well as well. Why is Labour's lead oaf the

Conservatives being cut to 6% in the latest polls? Ed Miliband's own

personal approval rating's gotten worse. Why is that? I'm not going to

disdues ins and outs of weekly opinion polls with you or anybody

else because I'm not a political commentator, but let me say to you

the facts of what's happened since Ed Miliband's been leader of the

Labour Party. We have got 1,950 New Labour councillors, all of those...

But you're... All those who've won their seats against the

Conservatives or the Liberal Democrats and no, Andrew you don't

always get that in opposition. In 1997 after Tony Blair was elected,

the Tories carried on losing council seats. Exceptional circumstances and

these days Mr Blair was 25% ahead in the polls. You were six. The economy

grew at an annual rate of 3% in the third quarter just gone. Everybody,

private and public forecasters now saying that Britain in this coming

year will grow faster than France, Italy, Spain, even Germany will grow

faster. Your poll ratings are average when the economy was

flatlining, what happens to them when the economy starts to grow

Well, I've just said to you, I'm not a political commentator or a pundit

on opinion polls. We are putting policies forward and we are holding

the Government to account for what they are doing and we think that

what they did opt economy pulled the plugs from the economy, delayed the

recovery, made it stagnate and we have had three years lost growth. I

understand that, but it's now starting to grow. Indeed. If you are

no political commentator, let me ask you this, you anticipated the

growth, so you switched your line to no growth to this is growth and

living standards are rising. If the economy does grow up towards 3% next

year, I would suggest that living standards probably will start to

rise with that amount of growth What do you do then? We have not

switched our line because the economy started to grow. All the way

along, we said the economy will recover, but it's been delayed and

we have had stagnation for far too long because of the economic

policies. We have been absolutely right to understand the concerns

people have and recognise that they are struggling with the

cost-of-living. Sure. And we are right to do that. What kind of

living standards stuck to rise next year? -- start to rise next year. I

hope they will. For 40 months of David Cameron's Prime Ministership,

for 39 of those, wages have risen slower than prices, so people are

worse off. I understand that. You will know that the broader

measurement, real household disposable income doesn't show that

decline because it takes everything into account. Going around the

country, people feel it. They say where's the recovery for me. Living

standards now start to rise? If that happens, what is your next line

There is a set of arguments about living standards, the National

Health Service, about the problems that there is in A, which caused

-- are caused by the organisation. I can put forward other lines. All

right. Let me ask you one other question If no newspapers have

signed up to the Government-backed Labour-backed Royal Charter on press

regular lace by 2015 and it looks like the way things are going none

will have, if you are in power, will a Labour Government legislate to

make them? They don't have to sign up to the Royal Charter, that's not

the system. What the Royal Charter does is create a recogniser and

basically says it's for the newspapers to set up their own

regulator. They are doing that. My question is... Let me finish. If

they decide to have nothing to do with the Royal Charter that was

decided in Miliband's office in the wee small hours, will you pass

legislation to make them? The newspapers are currently setting up

what they call... I know that, Harriet Harman. Just let me finish.

OK. Because the newspapers are setting up the independent Press

Standards Organisation. Right. If it is independent, as they say it is,

then the recogniser will simply say, we recognise that this is

independent and the whole point is that, in the past when there's been

skaen deals a tend press have really turned people's lives upside down

and the press have said OK we'll sort things out, leave it to us

then they have sorted things out but a few years later they have slipped

back, all this recogniser will do is check it once every three years and

say yes, you have got an independent system and it's remained independent

and therefore that is the guarantee things won't slip back. Very

interesting. Thank you for that That's really interesting that if

they get their act right, you won't force the alternative on them. We

want the system as set forward by Leveson which is not statute and

direct regulation. I want to stick with the press because I want to

ask, is this a British institution or an out-of-date image for a by

gone age. The Sun's Page 3 has been dividing the nation since it first

appeared way back in 1970. That s 43 years ago. Harriet Harman's called

for it to be removed, so we sent Adam out to ask whether the topless

photographs should stay or go. We have asked people if page three

should stay or go. Page three. What do you think? Nothing wrong with it

at all. I think it is cheap and exploits women. It is a family

newspaper. Should it stay or go Go. I will look like the bad guy. It

should go. You have changed your mind. It is free choice. Girls do

not have to be photographed. Old men get the paper just for that. Know

when your age does that? Not really. Dashes-macro know what your age.

Page three girls, should they stay or go? I am not bothered. There are

other ways of getting noticed. Page three of the Sun newspaper every

day, there is a woman with no top on. We got rid of that about 40

years ago in Australia. I am not in favour of censorship. It has been

long enough. It can stay there. What is wrong with it? We want to

encourage children to read the newspapers. I do not want my

children to look at that. It is degrading. Do you think we will see

the day when they get rid of it? Yes, I do. I am wondering if I can

turn this into some kind of a shelter. It is tipping it down. I

think the council should do shelter. It is tipping it down. I

something about their car parks! Mother nature, the human body. It

should stay. Is some people like it, that is fine. I have nothing against

it. You know what has surprised me, lots of women saying it should stay.

Maybe they are seeing it as empowering. As I have a baby

daughter in there, I am happy to see it go. Imagine my grandad opening up

his paper and they're being my bats! It should go. There is nothing wrong

with it. He wants it to go. What about people who think that page

three should be banned? Idiots. Do you know a girl called Lacey, aged

22, from Bedford? Good luck to her. I do not know her as a person that I

have heard she is nice. What about her decision to be on page three?

Nothing to lose. Do you think she has made Bedford proud? That is not

hard. What have we learned? More people want page three to stay down

for it to go. Most people do not really seem to care, do they? You

have heard a range of views. I am not arguing it should be banned. I

have not argued for it to be banned but I have disapproved of it since

the 1970s. You do not think it should be banned? I do not think

there should be dictating content but I do think, if you arrive from

outer space in this country in 21st-century Britain, and asked

yourself what was the role of women in society... To stand in their

knickers and nothing else, I think women have more to aspire to than to

be able to take their clothes off in public. The sun no longer has the

circulation, or the political importance, that it had in the 1980s

when page three was at its height. Aren't people just voting with their

feet anyway? The market is sorting this out. Half the number of people

buy it now than they did 20 years ago. Until the time the sun does not

have page three any more, I am entitled to my view that it is

outdated and wrong. I am happy to establish that you do not want to

ban it. What should happen? Should people boycott the paper? I have

never implied or said it should be banned. I have always been

forthright. Should people boycott the paper? I have not called for a

boycott. The women's movement, of which I am part, and this is not

about politicians censoring the press. I am part of the movement

which says women can do better than taking off their clothes and being

in their knickers in the newspapers. Why don't you do something about it?

I am doing something about it by saying it is outdated. I am not

doing anything more about it. Should people buy the paper as long as

there is a page three? Would you like to say to viewers, as long as

page three is in the sand, you should not buy it? Dashes-macro be

Son. I am saying, wake up to what the role of women in society should

be, which is more than page three. If they changed it in Australia,

which is where Rupert Murdoch came from, why can they not change it in

this country? You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just

over 20 minutes... I'll be talking to man leading the

Hello, I'm Lucie Fisher. Coming up on the Sunday Politics in the South

West: As the council funding row continues, we ask if the Tories are

losing the countryside. And for the next 20 minutes, I'm

joined by the Labour MP Alison Seabeck and the Lib Dem MP Adrian

Sanders. Welcome both of you to the programme. Let's begin with the

concern that this week's defence announcement could result in job

losses at Devonport Dockyard. When it was announced last month that the

survey ship HMS Protector was being moved from Portsmouth to Plymouth,

the Portsmouth MP, Penny Mordaunt, argued it would make sense to move

Plymouth's destroyers and frigates to her city so that Portsmouth could

be the "home of the surface fleet". Well, this week Portsmouth suffered

another blow with BAE's decision to end shipbuilding there and some say

that's strengthened the city's case for getting its hands on Plymouth's

frigates. Alison, you're not going to allow that to happen you? Know.

It is unlikely at the moment. That is a good case for them based ``

being based on some Internet fans in Portsmouth. The aircraft carriers

have got 11,000 people working on them. You would have expected her to

do it. She is the Defence Secretary's assistant so she is

quite influential. You can't say that you'll get special favours

because you are close to the Defence Secretary. This decision has to be

taken strategically. Lots of people have been talking about this. So you

don't think the concern is justified at the moment? No and we will be

fighting for it as a city. Adrian, as this matter to you? `` is this

matter. It affects the whole of the south`west economy. Do you think you

can Avenue once? I do. If you look at it there are more MPs with an

interest in Devon and Cornwall than there are within interesting

Portsmouth. High petrol prices and relaxed

planning rules are just two of the things on the list of issues turning

rural voters away from the Tories, according to a recent poll by the

Countryside Alliance. Another bugbear is the council funding gap,

which was back on the agenda at Westminster this week. In a moment,

we'll be joined by the rural Conservative MP Neil Parish, but

first this report from Jenny Kumah. It seems the price of petrol in the

countryside is causing more grief than ever. This week the petrol

retailers Association revealed the increasing rate at which their

members are going out of business. Motorists are feeling the squeeze. I

think it is a great tragedy. The government say they support rural

things but over and again you see they don't. According to a recent

poll from the Countryside Alliance, petrol prices are one of many issues

annoying rural voters. Others being the so`called unfair funding deals

for country councils, the perceived building of wind farms because of

relaxed tanning guidance and the government's failure with the

hunting with dogs banned. All parties have accepted this as a

dreadful piece of legislation. We think that would be one thing which

would give a significant symbol to the countryside that concerns were

being addressed. According to the Countryside Alliance only 66% of its

members would vote Conservative if they were an election tomorrow. A

drop of almost 20% in just a couple of years. While 13% would vote UKIP.

Three quarters of their members feel politicians are more interested in

the views and values of city dwellers. This man joined at the end

conservatives in the 80s and voted for the party on the 2010 election

but he now supports UKIP. This term has just proved that anybody that

had a traditional conservative background was betrayed. David

Cameron will say something on Friday, he'll have an opinion poll

on Saturday and he will diluted on Monday. `` he will do a U`turn. I'm

irritated with the way things are. He moved to Devon two years ago and

says he's noticed rural councils don't seem to get a fair deal. It

makes you feel terribly angry and it makes me feel that all the pledges

this government makes to rural England, they are empty promises.

This week MPs representing constituencies in the countryside

presented a petition to the government. It calls the councils in

the countryside to get a fairer share of the funding cake. A few

days later, ministers said they were considering more helpful country

motorists with a possible extension of the rural fuel duty discount. But

on the big issue of council funding, the government has in offering

little sympathy. Jenny Kumah reporting and Neil

Parish joins us now from Westminster. Our UKIP becoming your

biggest threat? We need to listen to what the country voters are telling

us and we need to be firm in our policies. In coalition sometimes

it's difficult to deliver all the robust policies you need. As far as

of the hunting act is concerned they will be some amendments which were

delayed. We have to deal with the wind turbines and solar farms by

reducing the huge subsidies so they are not driven all across the

countryside. We do need to do a lot more. You are very keen on local

issues and your party came in on a wave of localism and yet it doesn't

actually seem at ground level that people are feeling that. Is that

frustrating? I have got parish councils with flooding is going on

and planning is going head for houses so the localism has not come

through a strongly as we like. But I believe the planning policy will be

more robust overtime we get to April. Do you feel your party and

not really listening to you and the Tory people on the ground? I shall

shout louder and I lead a debate on the fascia of the rural authority to

make Chile get `` make sure we get proper funding for our council tax

funders. We have to deliver better services. Those are the key issues

people feel strongly about. I am going to bring Adrian in because

UKIP may be a threat to the Tories but it's also a threat to you.

Traditionally people would leave Tory and go Lib Dem. Now they seem

to be choosing UKIP instead of the Lib Dems. I am not sure that is

true. The real issues that people and related talking about light

transport costs, job opportunities, housing costs, the Tories had a

whole day in Westminster on Friday to talk about Europe. They are

fixated on losing vote UKIP. Rather than addressing the issues that

affect people in religious. The people of this country what they say

on Europe. I am pleased to be delivering a referendum so people

can have a real say as to whether we should be in or out of Europe and

let's settle this matter once and for all. I don't take a lecture on

being a peer. It is as big an issue in the rural areas as it is in the

urban areas. We are also dealing with the fuel problems and we have

to make sure people don't have high fuel bills. It is no good pushing

more and more taxes for wind turbines and solar farms. We are

doing a lot. People are very concerned about Europe ruling us and

that is why this referendum is essential. But this Countryside

Alliance survey suggested 13% of people are leaving. Alison, what do

you make of the Tory policies? It would be an thinkable for Labour to

go against the heartlands in the north`east. This is about people

looking for scapegoats in difficult times. This coming year, councils

are going to have to find cuts equivalent to the cuts they've had

already making the last three as. That affects you whether you are

urban oral. There are issues of sparsity and itching just in the

local government Association is saying let's go back and revisit the

former. `` the formula. I listened to the gentleman in the film and

there are issues on all sides. What is your message to seven of these

people were so disaffected with the Tory party they have turned to UKIP?

I would say stick with us. We have stopped the 12p rise on duty for

petrol. We will deliver this referendum on Europe. We are going

to be making amendments to the hunting act. We have dealt with TB.

I did want to ask Adrian, you said UKIP is not a threat to the Lib Dems

but Nigel Farage is predicting UKIP with all the sake Lib Dems in terms

of members within two years. `` will overtake. Is that something you're

worried about? We have 57 MPs and they don't have any. The issues

about cost of living and housing, yes I would like a referendum on you

that. The Lib Dems have pledged to that. I think Labour has got a

similar policy. We would have the vote in the future. But the idea

that the Tory party get a majority Tory government would waste

Parliamentary time bringing back hunting I think says it all in terms

of their priorities. Thank you for joining us.

It was a case which shocked the region and one which has sparked

debate in Parliament this week. Three years ago, Harold Philpotts is

believed to have set fire to a house in Cornwall killing himself, his

wife and ten`year`old son. The case was mentioned by an MP raising his

concern that domestic violence victims can be put at greater risk

because of patient confidentiality. This report from Anna Varle begins

with an extract from his debate. Ten`year`old Ben Philpott will

always be remembered by his teachers with his hand eagerly in the air and

the beaming smile. He was a positive spirit and a popular member of his

school community. A boy who showed enthusiasm for everything he

undertook. He was a key member of his local foot will team and was a

natural sportsman. It is nearly four years since the death of Ben and his

mother following the fire at their home in Newquay. The prime suspect

died from burns a week later. He had psychosis and was suffering from

depression. The case was one of huge distress not only to the community

but also to the extended family and those of us in local government. We

felt it was a case that should never have happened. A serious case review

found no agency could have foreseen the tragic outcomes but it did

recommend better sharing of issues between teams like the police and

social services. They had been threats against the wife and threats

against the child. But those were not communicated. The health

professionals wish a conclusion that the family were not at risk. It is

not part of my debate to say they were wrong but what I'm saying is

that the wife should have been able to make their own assessment. She

was not able to because she didn't have all the information. In his

speech Jonathan Evans questioned whether it was right that patient

confidentiality should trump public safety as he claimed it had then in

the `` this medical case. He said more could be done to ensure

professionals don't miss warning signs and pointed at that in many

family annihilation cases there is a history of domestic abuse. My

purpose is to urge the government to build on the Home Secretary's review

of the effectiveness of dealing with domestic violence. Every ten days in

England and Wales one child is killed at the hands of a parent. In

Devon alone there were more than 4000 referrals of domestic abuse

cases to agencies such as the police and local authorities last year.

1500 children were in homes which were deemed medium or high risk. Of

course not all domestic violence cases end in death. The research by

Birmingham city University show the number of family annihilation cases

it arising. It is an indicator of a wider social problem. The family is

becoming a pressure cooker. It is one symptom of that. The government

does not accept that instances are increasing. It says much has been

done to help agencies work together to protect those most at risk. But

it did concede there is much more to do.

Anna Varle reporting and we're joined by Sue Wallis from North

Devon Against Domestic Abuse. How hard is it for social services to

spot which of these cases may turn into something worse? I would say it

is extremely difficult for anyone to tell whether or not something is

going to escalate from what we would recognise as a domestic `` domestic

abusive situation into a family annihilation. But it is around the

training issues of recognising what domestic abuse is in the first

place. In this case it does throw up some inadequate and sees ``

inadequacies. Harold Philpotts had told a doctor he wanted to kill his

wife and son she was not told that because of patient confidentiality.

Can something be done about that? What we actually need is a framework

and an understanding of when it is acceptable to break patient

confidentiality or any confidentiality. We are all under an

obligation to ignore confidentiality when it is about safeguarding the

child. GPs to have a huge difficulty and it is a training issue and they

need to know they can have the confidence to report something like

that to the correct place. And presumably no when to do it and not.

Could the guidance be clearer? Yes. If you look at the practice

happening in Plymouth, the sharing of information between police and

schools for example, so if there has been an incident at home with the

police in Plymouth will now advise the school so the school is away.

Previously that did not happen. There needs to be information

sharing. It is about having the confidence to do that in those

circumstances. I have had people in my constituency surgeries on the

phone who have expressed real worries about child safety. They

have not felt able to take any action but I have been able to do

so. You cannot sit back and not do anything. You come back to support,

funding and mental health issues as well and support for that. Adrian,

are we learning enough lessons from these cases? Theresa May has ordered

a coherent review of different bodies. Are you hopeful that will

throw up some answers? The government is doing quite a few

things. The government is learning all the time. There is no automatic

reporting of death so there's a proper review. That did not use a

happen. There are some pilots like play's law. `` clear's law. Better

training for the police. All these things cost money. There are funding

cuts in the pipeline. How will they affect bodies like yourselves? The

difficulty is that millions of pounds are being spent on serious

case reviews and less money is being spent on ground level with that

service can be delivered to people so they can understand what domestic

abuses. And how to protect themselves from it. That is the most

important thing. I would keep the refuge is open. They are being

closed, including the one in Torbay. People mentioned Torbay to you

didn't they? The real difficulty is that social workers and police are

all very hard`pressed now. They have taken cut after cut their services.

We've had social workers where we've expressed concern about the family

and they have said, I don't have time to listen to you. That is the

voice of an overworked social workers and of somebody who is not

being supported in their role. You've also got the bedroom tax and

people are being caught by the bedroom tax because they have a safe

room to go to in their house. I am looking at a way to highlight that

elsewhere because that has to stop. People have to be allowed to have

safe rooms. If the review did not pick this up what we do? We have to

trust the professionals in the front line to make decisions. That is one

thing we really have to do. Thank you all for joining us.

Now, our regular round`up of the political week in 60 seconds.

On a visit to farm of Lord Heseltine said Cornwall was more prosperous in

real terms than a generation ago. Look at the cars. They are a totally

different states are the ones 30 years ago. The future of all

Devon's council run care homes was put under a cost`cutting review.

There will be real concerns amongst residents and their families and

loved ones. Somerset's article fell five point short of its 70% target

even after the three`week extension. They are playing the figures uncover

the fact it has been a complete failure and they have killed badgers

for no reason at all. A proposal to transfer the Duchy of Cornwall from

Prince Charles to the people was discussed in Parliament. And

inspired by this ceremony in Exeter, the people of Plymouth were asked to

nominate lost war heroes for street names. If you could name a street

after anyone who would it be? I would go for Robin Stubbs who scored

a hat`trick in the third round of the FA Cup in 1966 the Torquay

United against Tottenham Hotspur. Allison, have you got a personal

hero? If we are looking at war heroes it would be the first

Plymouth Sylvia lost in the First World War. Who was that? I don't

know. They were far too many victims but that would be the person I would

name a street after. What about transferring the powers of the Duchy

of Cornwall from the Prince of Wales to the people, is that something you

would like to see happen? That is a big question for two seconds. We

need to have a detailed discussion. Yes and no? I think it is

inevitable. That's the Sunday Politics in the

South West. You can always watch this show again online. Thanks to my

guests, Alison Seabeck and Adrian Sanders. Now, back to Andrew in

London. Enjoy the rest of more equipment so they can see

cyclists. Back to you, Andrew. We learned this week that no more

warships will be built at Portsmouth, the home of the Royal

Navy since the days of the Mary Rose and Francis Drake. But has the city

been sacrificed to save jobs on the Clyde in Scotland? Is England the

loser in an effort to keep the United Kingdom intact? Let's speak

to Eddie Bone, he leads the campaign for an English Parliament. Is

England the loser in this attempt to keep the

doubt, Andrew. We would look at it from the campaign for the English

Parliament that the British governance is bribing the Scots to

stay with the union at the cost of English jobs. What is the best

outcome for England when Scotland votes in the referendum next year?

We have got to have an English parliament. What I mean by that is

an endless governor and with a first minister speaking on behalf of the

people of England. -- and English government. If Scotland votes for

independence, that is the union coming to an end. It will be

dissolved legally. England would be going to negotiating table without

true representation. The union continues but it continues without

Scotland. I want to come back to my... That is the constitutional

position. You may not agree with me but that is the constitutional

position. Do you want Scotland to vote for independence next year We

want a fair deal with equality for England. If that can be maintained

or England can have a fair deal within the union, that is brilliant.

Let's have a federal system are all the nations are treated equally If

that cannot happen and Scotland decides to stay, if Scotland goes,

it is an independent England, isn't it? If Scotland votes to leave the

union, what is left of the United Kingdom would be so dominated by

England at Westminster would, in effect, Beale English Parliament,

wouldn't it? I do not agree with you. I think that is a British, deny

list approach. The act of union was a fusion with the King of England to

the King of Scotland. That would come to an end. The Welsh are very

concerned. They are a very small nation. If you have a botched

British come English Parliament the Welsh would be in a very vulnerable

situation. They would not be listened to. Also a situation with

Northern Ireland. There are voices in Northern Ireland talking about

trying to reunite Northern Ireland. It would be a very volatile

situation. Would you prefer England to become an independent nation

separate from what was left of the UK, which would be Wales and

Northern Ireland? Would you like to see England have a seat in the UN? I

want their representation for the people of England. English jobs were

sacrificed because the British government wanted Scotland to

remain... You have answered that very quickly. I am -- very clearly.

Would you want England, without Northern Ireland and Wales to become

a separate nation state? If that is what it takes for people of England

to have their representation - representation that looks at

policies of the NHS, education very different from Wales and Northern

Ireland - then so be it. Independence will need to be the way

forward. We have a small window of opportunity that the federal system

might still work. D1 indenting have a system like Scotland? -- do you

want England to have a system like Scotland? What we need to do now is

implement the process is to get their representation for England. I

would urge your viewers to join our campaign because it is the only way

to protect jobs in England, protect the NHS, protect education.

Otherwise we will see the people in England continually penalised by the

British government is trying desperately to save the union by

giving more to Scotland and Wales. Nice to talk to you. Helen, on this

business of the Clyde versus Portsmouth, it would have been

pretty inconceivable of the British government that believes in the

union to have allowed the Clyde to close. That would have been a

disaster. It would have been. It's dumped Nicola Sturgeon. Hang on a

minute, if there was Scottish independence, England were not allow

its warships to be built in a foreign country. She was unable to

admit there were any downsides to Scottish independence. It would be

dangerous for Scotland to talk about this. You have a Lib Dem and a

Conservative MP with reasonable majorities. They will find that a

killer on their doorstep in the next election. There are no results in

this for Mr Cameron. He has one MP and he will be lucky to have two.

And the South of England, I know Portsmouth is quite an industrial

area, but the South of England is overall Tory territory. He has

backed the Clyde where there are no Tory votes. The Tory problem in

Scotland is crucial. The trend to look out for is the rise of English

nationalism within the Conservative Party. They have the word Unionist

in their official title. If, in election after election, they failed

to win a significant presence in Scotland, and they are failing to

win a majority in Westminster because of that, it is not hard to

imagine that in ten years time that would be a party which has more

autonomy. One person we know who does not sign up to that. David

Cameron is a romantic Unionist at heart he may say that are not any

vote in Scotland but he want to keep the union together. With the Clyde,

you saw a rival together of economic and political interests. It is

economic or the case the greatest shipbuilding capability in the

United Kingdom is in the Clyde. It is politically very helpful for this

government to say to people in Scotland, look at the benefits of

being in the United Kingdom and under their breath, or in the case

of Alistair Carmichael to a camera, look what might go if you leave

That came together very conveniently to the government. Now, how do you

like your politicians? Squeaky clean with an impeccable past? Or are you

happy for them to have a few skeletons in the closet? Well, last

week the Toronto Mayor Rob Ford admitted smoking crack cocaine. He

said he took the drug about a year ago whilst in a drunken stupor. So,

what impact do confessions have on a political career? In a moment, we'll

hear what our panel has to say, but first, take a look at this. Yes I

have smoked crack cocaine. Am I an addict? No. Have I tried it?

Probably one of my drunken stupor is, about a year ago. I have used

drugs in the past. I have used class a drugs in the past. About 30 years

ago at university, I did smoke cannabis. I took cannabis is a few

times at university and it was wrong. Have you snorted cocaine I

tried to but unsuccessfully years ago. I sneezed. The people around

you who took cocaine, they went .. Is it better to confess or the that

get you into even more hot water? It is absolutely better. The confession

by Jacqui Smith was without glamour. Finding a Labour politician who once

smoked cannabis 25 years ago... I do not think it makes you think that

she cannot be a serious politician. Politicians should brace thing about

them which everyone knows. In the case of Ed Miliband, he should not

deny being geeky. That would reek of in authenticity. The Tory MP meant

to be regarded as a rising star turns out he was claiming to heat

his horses stables at the expense of the tax payer. He had made a

generous claim for energy bills in his constituency home. He went

through the papers and found he had been using it to heat the stables

and he laid it all out and did the right thing. He was completely

honest. Is that the end of it? It will still haunt in because energy

is such a big issue. He was right to be honest about it. Helen was

saying, absolutely, you need to be honest about your past. Harriet

Harman said she smoked pot at university. If you have smoked pot,

you can have a front line career. If you have taken class a drugs, you

cannot have a front line career There is the politician confessing

and the remarkable willingness of the public to forgive. It is

enlightened and progressive to forgive a politician for an affair

or taking soft drugs at university. To smoke crack cocaine and demand be

mad of following the Mayor of Toronto does astonishes me. There

was an example in America a few years ago. It was crack cocaine He

was elected having confessed to smoking crack cocaine. I draw the

line around class a drugs. We will put the team on to investigate him.

Help to Bible come back into the headlines again. Mr Cameron will

surroundings by the people who are benefiting from buying their homes

on this scheme in the same way that this is that you used to visit those

who had bought their council houses. It will become hugely politicised.

The Bank of England thinks that unemployment will drop late 201 ,

early 2015. They will put interest rates up. Those with 95% mortgages

will have two find an extra ?40 a month to pay them off. I would not

be surprised if David Cameron is setting up himself with this

trouble. They will not want to raise interest rates. Mark Carney was very

careful to give himself three get out clauses. If unemployment hits a

certain level, Key has three measures which have to be fulfilled

before he goes ahead and raises interest rates. As a Tory

strategist, would you rather go into the election with low and implement

or low interest rates? I think they would stick to low interest rates.

-- low unemployment. It is not just panellists who are raising questions

about it, it is senior figures people in senior economic positions.

They are saying the scheme is fine at the moment. David Cameron will be

surrounded by people who have taken mortgages out at low levels and it

is all fine right now but if interest rates go up, it will not be

cosy. That's all folks. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two

at midday. I'll be back next Sunday at the normal time of 11am.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.